Actually considering a labradoodle (Help with choosing a breed)
Serena
I just wanted to preface this with the fact that I'm actually a dog person
who "knows better" than to buy a designer dog. I know all about responsible
breeders, genetic health testing, myths of hybrid vigor, backyard breeders,
etc etc. A few years ago, I would never have been asking this question.
But situations change...
The situation as it stands is this: So there is a good chance that my SO
and myself will be buying a house together in the next year or so. The
problem is that I'm a dog nut who can't imagine life without dogs, and he
only "likes" some dogs.
We're in no rush to get a new dog together as I already have one (he
understands that we're a package deal). But my dog is getting up there in
age, so I'm looking now towards the future. We just have completely
different requirements on what we like in a dog.
His top requirements:
* Medium - Extra Large size (no "footballs" or "foo-foo" dogs)
* Very calm / mellow indoor personality. No jumping on him, no harassing
him to play constantly. More coach potato like. Basically he wants a dog
who will be extremely non-intrusive (at least when indoors).
* He has friends with a rescue greyhound and he quite likes this breed.
My top requirements:
* Non-shedding (or very low shedding). I will happily pay a small fortune
for bimonthly grooming and I am very content spending all the time needed to
upkeep a non-shedding coat. I just can not stand dog hair all over my
house, myself, etc.
* Able to go for long walks / runs off leash. I live right by a couple of
great off leash parks, which is where I do most of running. So I want a dog
that a) can physically handle medium length runs and b) can be trained
fairly easily to be trusted off leash when supervised.
* My favourite breeds are the larger terriers, wheatens, kerry blues,
airedeles, irish, etc because of their outgoing spunky (and stubborn)
personality, as well as their low shedding coats. But I do like most dogs
as long as they have _some_ personality. No offence, but some dogs are just
really boring.
Requirements we both want:
* Good with kids! Our friends have multiplied like bunnies, so there often
are a lot of young kids running around.
So yes, we have completely different ideas of what we want in a dog.
So what breed would you recommend? I can't seem to think of a purebred dog
that really meets our needs. Most of the non-shedding breeds are either toy
breeds (which neither him nor I am particularly fond of) or terriers (too
"jumpy" for him). While he likes greyhounds, they certainly can't be
trusted off leash and they really are not good jogging companions. He likes
some of the older (3 years +) labradors he has met, as they tend to be a
pretty laid back breed indoors. However, they shed like crazy. I don't
mind Standard Poodles (though they are not my favourite), but he has a
mental block with the poodle issue. He just plain does not want a poodle.
Plus, the ones I've met tend to be fairly "bouncy" indoors.
This brings me to the labradoodle issue. I can't help but think that if you
combined the more laid back calm attitude of a mature lab with the
non-shedding coat of poodles, voila... we'd have a pretty much a dog that
meets all of our requirements.
So I'm happy with scouring the shelters for a labradoodle or similar mixed
breed, but in my area we just don't have the same dog overpopulation problem
that the US does (I'm in Canada). While I'm sure dogs like this
_occasionally_ come in, I'm guessing it's maybe once or twice a year and
they are likely snatched up by shelter staff before they are even available
to the public.
So that leaves getting a puppy. I've done some preliminary research,and it
actually looks like there are "australian labradoodle" breeders out there
who are breeding 4th & 5th generation labradoodles. They are offering 3
year genetic health guarantees (not ideal, but better than many), doing
health checks such as CERF, OFA, Penhipp, von Willebrands, etc on the
parents, having puppy buyers sign responsible owner contracts, spaying and
neutering before placement... all of the things that only "responsible" dog
breeders tend to do. But they also seem to be cashing in on the fad by
charging $2000+. So what is up with these breeders? Are they responsible?
Is it ethical to buy a non-purebred puppy, even if the parents are health
tested?
Looking forward to hearing your responses!
Shelly
> * Very calm / mellow indoor personality. No jumping on him, no harassing
> him to play constantly. More coach potato like. Basically he wants a dog
> who will be extremely non-intrusive (at least when indoors).
This contraindicates a Lab x Poodle. Both are working breeds, and a
mix thereof will likely be quite active.
> * Non-shedding (or very low shedding). I will happily pay a small fortune
> for bimonthly grooming and I am very content spending all the time needed to
> upkeep a non-shedding coat. I just can not stand dog hair all over my
> house, myself, etc.
I cannot think of *any* breed that is medium-large, does not shed,
and is not very active.
> * Able to go for long walks / runs off leash.
That pretty much contraindicates your SO's requirement for a mellow dog.
> * My favourite breeds are the larger terriers, wheatens, kerry blues,
> airedeles, irish, etc because of their outgoing spunky (and stubborn)
> personality, as well as their low shedding coats.
Most terriers are pretty active. Some are kind of "foo-fooy." Many
are smaller than what you describe your SO as requiring.
> Requirements we both want:
> * Good with kids! Our friends have multiplied like bunnies, so there often
> are a lot of young kids running around.
That could be tricky with some terriers. Good socialization,
training, and breeding will help, but you still may end up with a
dog that is not good with kids.
> So yes, we have completely different ideas of what we want in a dog.
What you seem to have are some mutually exclusive requirements. One
or both of you are going to have to compromise if you want to get a dog.
> This brings me to the labradoodle issue. I can't help but think that if you
> combined the more laid back calm attitude of a mature lab with the
> non-shedding coat of poodles, voila... we'd have a pretty much a dog that
> meets all of our requirements.
You might think, but there's really no guarantee what you are going
to get, coat-wise, with that mix. You could end up with a wiry,
shedding nightmare. Also, I think you are seriously underestimating
such a dog's activity level.
> So that leaves getting a puppy. I've done some preliminary research,and it
> actually looks like there are "australian labradoodle" breeders out there
> who are breeding 4th & 5th generation labradoodles. They are offering 3
> year genetic health guarantees (not ideal, but better than many), doing
> health checks such as CERF, OFA, Penhipp, von Willebrands, etc on the
> parents, having puppy buyers sign responsible owner contracts, spaying and
> neutering before placement... all of the things that only "responsible" dog
> breeders tend to do. But they also seem to be cashing in on the fad by
> charging $2000+. So what is up with these breeders? Are they responsible?
Do you have any pointers to specific websites?
> Is it ethical to buy a non-purebred puppy, even if the parents are health
> tested?
It might be. It also might not be.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
ceb
@pd7urf1no:
> Looking forward to hearing your responses!
>
One of my dogs is a lovely medium-sized non-foo-foo mixed breed from a
shelter. She is double-coated, so she sheds into her coat and needs lots
of brushing (as you prefer). She is calm around the house and good with
visiting kids. She loves to go for walks and would enjoy runs even more.
She is now 5 years old and has been this way since she made it past
adolescence, although I did get her as a puppy.
So my recommendation is that you and your SO go to a shelter and look for
a 3+ year old dog whose temperament you like and whose coat you think you
can deal with.
I would also like to mention that retriever shedding can be pretty well
handled with a shedding blade -- since you're willing to brush, you might
enjoy working with the shedding blade pretty often.
--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico cat
Suja
"Shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message:
> This contraindicates a Lab x Poodle. Both are working breeds, and a
> mix thereof will likely be quite active.
None of the Poodle mixes I've met, including Lab x Poodle mixes, have even
come close to being mellow. Typically, they've been on the highly active
end of the spectrum.
> I cannot think of *any* breed that is medium-large, does not shed,
> and is not very active.
Unless it is an older adult.
> That pretty much contraindicates your SO's requirement for a mellow dog.
An adult dog of some of the existing non-shedding breeds could be like this.
Not that I have non-shedding dogs, but my older, adult dogs are mellow in
the house, but more than willing to go on long hikes and stuff (as long as
the weather cooperates).
> Most terriers are pretty active. Some are kind of "foo-fooy." Many
> are smaller than what you describe your SO as requiring.
And terriers aren't exactly the easiest dogs to live with that I can think
of, as a general rule.
> You might think, but there's really no guarantee what you are going
> to get, coat-wise, with that mix. You could end up with a wiry,
> shedding nightmare.
Yup. Of the Lab x Poodle - Golden Retriever x Poodle type of dogs I've
seen, about a third seem to shed. And some of them end up with coats that
shed that are also horribly difficult to maintain by virtue of being wiry.
> Also, I think you are seriously underestimating
> such a dog's activity level.
It is just about impossible to get a mellow puppy of any breed, never mind a
mellow puppy of a mix of two active breeds.
Suja
Rocky
> So I'm happy with scouring the shelters for a labradoodle
> or similar mixed breed, but in my area we just don't have
> the same dog overpopulation problem that the US does (I'm
> in Canada). While I'm sure dogs like this _occasionally_
> come in, I'm guessing it's maybe once or twice a year and
> they are likely snatched up by shelter staff before they
> are even available to the public.
Generally, where in Canada are you? I ask because I'm going to
suggest that you look into Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers. I've
been taken to task here before for suggesting SCWTs because of
their purported drive and low biddability, but honestly, almost
all of those I've met in western Canada are fairly laid-back in
their temperament yet are still athletic when needed. Maybe
it's a regional thing.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
bethgsd
"Serena" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8Culi.108345$xq1.14657@pd7urf1no...
> Looking forward to hearing your responses!
>
Porti Water Dog. (Can't even come close enough on the spelling so that
spell check can help me out here!) If you are willing to do the jogging,
grooming, training, etc it might work.
Beth
Serena
> thereof will likely be quite active.
The issue is not so much outdoor activity level, but indoor activity level.
I've met several labs who are very mellow and calm indoors, but will happily
chase balls for hours outside. Of course, I've also met labs who are
absolutely nutso indoors too. It does seem that at many of the labradoodle
sites I was looking at seem to aim for a fairly mellow temperment.
>> * Able to go for long walks / runs off leash.
>
> That pretty much contraindicates your SO's requirement for a mellow dog.
I don't see how this is a contradiction. Basically my SO doesn't want a
hyperactive, bouncy, extremely in your face dog running around the inside
the house at a mile a minute. So Jack Russel Terriers (or most terriers for
that matter) need not apply. These are the types of dogs that I am used to
owning, and my SO is really not a fan of.
But I'm positive there are plenty of dogs who are quite content to lounge
around the house, assuming they are given plenty of daily exercise (off
leash runs, etc). Non-shedding ones? Well, that's a different issue, hence
my dilemma.
> What you seem to have are some mutually exclusive requirements. One or
> both of you are going to have to compromise if you want to get a dog.
Which may very well end up happening. Or I may end up going dogless, which
will be so extremely difficult on my part.
> You might think, but there's really no guarantee what you are going to
> get, coat-wise, with that mix. You could end up with a wiry, shedding
> nightmare. Also, I think you are seriously underestimating such a dog's
> activity level.
From what I understand, the multigen lines are pretty consistent in
producting low to non shedding dogs. Of course there is always a chance
something could pop up, but I'm sure a coat type like that would still be
better than a purebred lab.
And again, I have no problem with a dog who has high exercise requirements.
The SO just want a dog who doesn't view the inside of the house as an indy
500 track.
> Do you have any pointers to specific websites?
One I was browsing at was:
http://www.morningsmilelabradoodles.com/
>> Is it ethical to buy a non-purebred puppy, even if the parents are health
>> tested?
>
> It might be. It also might not be.
I never thought I'd even consider a "doodle" breed before, and I would have
preached to pretty anyone who asked about how unethical it was. Howeve, I
always assumed that there was a purebred dog out there that already existed
for everyone. Apparantly there isn't. And now with there being "doodle"
breeders out there seemingly attempting to do things the "right" way, well,
to me it makes the ethics more fuzzy.
But honestly, I can't see me spending $2K + on a puppy, especially since I'd
much rather adopt an adult dog anyways. So it will likely end up with me
scouring pet finder, and hoping I can trust the staff at US Shelters to
accurately describe temperment to me over the phone. Or if I'm lucky, I may
find a dog even closer to home in a shelter (not holding my breath though).
It did make for an interesting discussion though. Thanks for your feedback!
Serena
news:Fri996BB13FBEF76au...@rocky-dog.com...
> Generally, where in Canada are you? I ask because I'm going to
> suggest that you look into Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers. I've
> been taken to task here before for suggesting SCWTs because of
> their purported drive and low biddability, but honestly, almost
> all of those I've met in western Canada are fairly laid-back in
> their temperament yet are still athletic when needed. Maybe
> it's a regional thing.
I'm in Western Canada as well, and I am actually a huge fan of SCWTs.
Though I didn't specify this before, my current dog is a Kerry Blue, which
is a bit more "harder" and serious than SCWTs, but otherwise very similar in
personality.
My SO gets along with my dog "okay", but I think that is largely because my
guy is 9.5 years old and is finally beginning to slow down. The SO still
finds him too bouncy indoors for his likely, as he never walks anywhere in
the house... he's either sleeping or running and leaping from place to
place. He also is very mischevious, and does things deliberately "wrong" to
get attention, which drives the SO crazy.
I'm pretty much thinking that terriers in the future are out, which is a
shame because they are my favourite dog group and they are what I have grown
up with.
Serena
news:Xns996B9E1525CE5...@128.143.2.66...
> So my recommendation is that you and your SO go to a shelter and look for
> a 3+ year old dog whose temperament you like and whose coat you think you
> can deal with.
By all means, I completely agree that this would be ideal! However, the
shelter situation up here is very different than the situation in most areas
of the US. Dogs are almost never euthanized because we just don't get that
many dogs turned in, and the ones that do find their way to the shelter get
snatched up fairly quickly (which is great!). But therefore it's also
extremely rare for any dog fitting my requirements to even come in (bad for
me).
That said, this likely what I'll end up doing, though I may need to drive
down the US to find the right dog in a shelter.
> I would also like to mention that retriever shedding can be pretty well
> handled with a shedding blade -- since you're willing to brush, you might
> enjoy working with the shedding blade pretty often.
Having a pretty much non-shedding dog right now, I can tell you that I've
yet to meet a retriever that doesn't shed what I consider "tons". When I
pet a dog, I don't want to see any evidence of it on my hands or clothing.
This may seem silly requirement to some, but I know myself and what I'm
willing to put up with.
Thanks for your advice!
Serena
"bethgsd" <bet...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jvAli.18140$MV6.2976@trnddc01...
> Since your SO wants laid back, that could be a problem, but I'm thinking
> Porti Water Dog. (Can't even come close enough on the spelling so that
> spell check can help me out here!) If you are willing to do the jogging,
> grooming, training, etc it might work.
Porties are very cool indeed, but I've yet to meet one in an indoor
situation (they are not exactly common!). I always figured that they'd be a
dog who likes to bouce off the walls a lot, so I had excluded it from my
list. But I think I'll have to do more research to see what their indoor
energy level is really like.
Thanks!
>
> Beth
>
>
>
Rocky
> Porties are very cool indeed, but I've yet to meet one in
> an indoor situation (they are not exactly common!).
I know a lot of PWDs - they're common in Alberta, at least.
FWIW, a very large four day CKC breed show happens in Calgary
every August long weekend.
> I
> always figured that they'd be a dog who likes to bouce off
> the walls a lot, so I had excluded it from my list.
Yes, all I know are very bouncy and energetic and have minds of
their own. All the PWD owners I know say that you have to have
a sense of humour to own a Portie.
Melinda Shore
Serena <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>My SO gets along with my dog "okay", but I think that is largely because my
>guy is 9.5 years old and is finally beginning to slow down. The SO still
>finds him too bouncy indoors for his likely, as he never walks anywhere in
>the house... he's either sleeping or running and leaping from place to
>place. He also is very mischevious, and does things deliberately "wrong" to
>get attention, which drives the SO crazy.
While reading this thread it occurred to me that the real
issue here isn't energy levels, but rather the dog's ability
to contain it as well as whether or not the dog likes to
test boundaries. A dog *can* learn to behave itself in the
house and to take the romping outside. Some dogs are more
likely than other to test your training. So I think this is
really about biddability rather than "energy."
We had Kerrys when I was growing up and I still think
they're fabulous dogs.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Shelly
news:4r9mi.113928$xq1.102899@pd7urf1no:
> I'm pretty much thinking that terriers in the future are out,
> which is a shame because they are my favourite dog group and they
> are what I have grown up with.
Why are you not considering an Airedale? That would seem to suit
most of your criteria pretty well, I'd think.
Shelly
news:xb9mi.114579$NV3.7831@pd7urf2no:
> The issue is not so much outdoor activity level, but indoor
> activity level. I've met several labs who are very mellow and calm
> indoors, but will happily chase balls for hours outside. Of
> course, I've also met labs who are absolutely nutso indoors too.
If a Poodle is too bouncy indoors, I cannot imagine how a Poodle x
Lab is going to make you happy.
> It does seem that at many of the labradoodle sites I was looking
> at seem to aim for a fairly mellow temperment.
I'm not sure I'd trust an *oodle breeder to be entirely truthful
about what they are producing. And, obviously, what they are aiming
for and what you end up with may be two entirely different things.
> One I was browsing at was:
> http://www.morningsmilelabradoodles.com/
I've seen worse. I've also seen much, much better. For a start,
they don't list exactly what they test for, or the depth and bredth
of the dogs' tested. Also, unless I have missed it, they do not
spell out *why* they breed. I do like how they list the "10
Commandments of a Responsible Pet Owner." Perhaps a list of things a
responsible breeder ought to do would be more fitting?
I also find it interesting that their "About Us" page, where you
would think there might be information on why they breed, what they
hope to accomplish with their breeding program, and generally what
qualifies them to be responsible breeders, they list their
backgrounds in the legal/criminal professions. What an odd choice!
http://www.morningsmilelabradoodles.com/healthwarranty.htm
Breeder Responsibility
1. This is the bare minimum required to comply with puppy lemon laws
in most of the US states that have them. In other words, it's not as
impressive as it may sound.
2. Three years? What about late onset diseases? What "genetic
disorders" are included, and how "serious" must a problem be to be
covered? "Affects the dog's quality of life" is hugely subjective.
I would not buy from a breeder who was unable or unwilling to be more
explicit. Also, the choice of refund or replacement is at the
breeder's disgression. Yikes!
3. I realize this is fairly common, and that it keeps the breeder
from being screwed over, perhaps. However, I think it's kind of
sucky to be at the breeder's mercy. If her vet decides your dog's
quality of life is not negatively impacted enough, then the breeder
can tell you to jump in a lake.
Buyer Responsibility
2. "All preventative treatment recommended by the vet will be
followed." What if your vet and you do not see eye to eye on
something? For example, I refuse to give certain vaccinations, on
the grounds that I have decided they are largely ineffective. I also
do not follow my vet's nutritional advice. I do those things because
I feel they are appropriate for my pets' best interests. As an
owner, I should be allowed to make those decisions.
6. Note that the breeder does not obligate herself to take back
*any* dog.
> But honestly, I can't see me spending $2K + on a puppy, especially
> since I'd much rather adopt an adult dog anyways.
Holy crap! No, I would *not* be giving these folks $2,000 of my hard
earned money for one of their dogs. Sorry, but they are *not* worth
it. Seriously, I wouldn't pay that sort of money for *any* dog, not
even if both parents had multiple titles at both ends of their names.
> So it will
> likely end up with me scouring pet finder, and hoping I can trust
> the staff at US Shelters to accurately describe temperment to me
> over the phone. Or if I'm lucky, I may find a dog even closer to
> home in a shelter (not holding my breath though).
How about all-breed rescues? That way, the dogs will have been in
foster care, and the rescue group can give you a much better idea of
the dog's temperament and needs than if you go to a shelter.
> It did make for an interesting discussion though. Thanks for your
> feedback!
You're welcome! I hope you find something that will work for both of
you.