Chow Chows
Joanne Anderson
A pet professionals two cents worth:
Over the past 20 years or so, I have instructed over 2000 people and their
dogs in obedience classes. From puppy classes to Utility training. I am
also a professional all breed dog and cat groomer of more than 12 years.
I can recall over 20 different Chows and Chow mixes that have participated
in my classes and/or had been in for grooming. At some point, EVERY single
one of the Chows actually bit their owner aggressively. Some even drawing
blood. To me, this is a red flag situation for the breed. I'm not saying
the breed is bad, only that I have made an observation of 20 out of 20 had
a discipline problem and should be monitored closely, especially around
children.
Generally speaking, I believe that Chow Chows may have a very loving and
devoted attitude towards their owners. This could be the case until they
are asked to do (or not to do something) they (the Chow) don't agree with.
In obedience you will come to a point of refusal with almost any dog.
Chows just don't seem to accept authority from anyone or anything.
Most owners may actually recognize the problem, but just avoids doing the
thing the dog doesn't like. This "thing" has been to known be: brushing,
cleaning the dog's ears, touching the dog's feet, rubbing his tummy,
pushing his rear end down to sit, pulling down on his collar while
teaching him to lay down, not setting his food dish down directly in front
of him, and making him get off the couch.
This behavior problem was even observed in a 3 month old male Chow puppy
that had been brought to me for private lessons because he had already bit
every member of the household (5 people). One child even had to have
stitches. We couldn't even get a collar on the puppy without drastic
restraint measures. The puppy was not frightened, he just didn't want
restraint. He actually went ballistic. I have a scar on my left thigh
where the little guy bit me. He was a loaded time bomb in a cute as a
button puppy outfit.
The owners were not up for my suggestions for drastic training measures
and to have him neutered immediately, so my final advice to that family
was to have the puppy put to sleep and find a new one. Be that as it may,
you know what they did? They gave the pup away to live on a farm so he
could roam free.
Joanne Anderson
ATI's K9's Etc
http://atik9setc.com
Jim
"Joanne Anderson" <j...@atik9setc.com> wrote:
>A pet professionals two cents worth:
>
>Over the past 20 years or so, I have instructed over 2000 people and their
>dogs in obedience classes. From puppy classes to Utility training. I am
>also a professional all breed dog and cat groomer of more than 12 years.
>
>I can recall over 20 different Chows and Chow mixes that have participated
>in my classes and/or had been in for grooming. At some point, EVERY single
>one of the Chows actually bit their owner aggressively. Some even drawing
>blood. To me, this is a red flag situation for the breed. I'm not saying
>the breed is bad, only that I have made an observation of 20 out of 20 had
>a discipline problem and should be monitored closely, especially around
>children.
>
SNIP
Joanne, prepare yourself to be told that you are an idiot from
this Gregh scum. He is totally blind concerning this breed and
becomes exceptionally obnoxious to anyone that sees ANY fault
in a Chow. I kill-filed the piece of dirt because of his stupid
rantings. I do agree with you and I have had many, many
handlers, judges, trainers, and vets tell me that they just
flat don't like the breed as they are unpredictable and often
just plain mean when it suits them.
Jim
gregh
On 22-Mar-97 02:48:54, Joanne Anderson assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>A pet professionals two cents worth:
Joanne,
Honestly?
>Over the past 20 years or so, I have instructed over 2000 people and their
>dogs in obedience classes. From puppy classes to Utility training. I am
>also a professional all breed dog and cat groomer of more than 12 years.
>I can recall over 20 different Chows and Chow mixes that have participated
>in my classes and/or had been in for grooming. At some point, EVERY single
>one of the Chows actually bit their owner aggressively. Some even drawing
>blood. To me, this is a red flag situation for the breed. I'm not saying
>the breed is bad, only that I have made an observation of 20 out of 20 had
>a discipline problem and should be monitored closely, especially around
>children.
Joanne, I dont believe that for one moment. I would rather believe MANY more
years than you OWNING Chows, the experiences of a LIFETIME of my father who
had to live and work with dogs and sometimes depend on them for survival. Too
many people like you come out with that only because they have an axe to
grind. Too many people come out like you and paint a veneer of "I know what I
am talking about" and then proceed to paint their own inecusable PREJUDICE on
an entire breed, Chow or any other. This is not intended as a slight on
you, personally but an observation that MANY people do exactly as you did
on any number of breeds and they arent professionals at all. Shall we
believe them all? The simple fact is:
1) No entire breed is aggressive. This is the same as "The entire Caucasian
race is NOT aggressive" or "The entire black African race is NOT aggressive"
when referring to humans.
2) If you ARE a professional dog trainer who deals with dogs with disciplinary
problems then obviously you WILL see more of any particular breed with a
problem. This does NOT mean an entire breed is bad. Common sense tells anyone,
professionals included, this. To claim otherwise *IS* a slight against your
professional reputation. No true professional would make such a claim.
>Generally speaking, I believe that Chow Chows may have a very loving and
>devoted attitude towards their owners. This could be the case until they
>are asked to do (or not to do something) they (the Chow) don't agree with.
That is just pure rot. I have to, now and then, make my Chow do things she
doesnt want. For example, recently she was chewing on a bone and actually
shattered it at one end. I had to go grab that bone to take away from her,
right out of hee mouth. No problems at all though she showed reluctance to
give it up by following the bone and I to the house. This is to be expected.
If you can take food from a dog's mouth, surely that says something, doesnt
it? Added to this, ALL my Chows have been this way. I have known MANY Chows
over the years, mine and others and that would be significantly more than 20.
All with the exception of one have been well behaved in public. That one was
the dire of my first Chow. He was just a "dont bother me" type who preferred
to be alone. He was cranky and showed it by snorting and moving elsewhere. MY
Chow, his daughter, was not a bit like that. So, as I have claimed
SIGNIFICANTLY more than 20 and you have claimed 20, by the law of averages and
by YOUR example, should I claim ALL the breed is OK? Nope. Some Chows ARENT OK
but then some owners arent OK either.
>In obedience you will come to a point of refusal with almost any dog.
>Chows just don't seem to accept authority from anyone or anything.
Chows are not a dog I would bother to utility train. There have been
successful cases and so on but I have found that all but one of my own Chows
was "aloof" as they are supposed to be and highly intelligent. They are not
predisposed to do something unless they see a reason or want to do it just
because you tell them to do it - the ones I have owned, I mean. That one
exception, though, would do things for me without me having to say a word on
most occasions and was more obedient than most dogs in Utility trials. Her one
thing that would get her walking the opposite direction when you wanted her
was if you cuddled her. She liked a good pat and a scratch but never liked a
cuddle. ;-}
>Most owners may actually recognize the problem, but just avoids doing the
>thing the dog doesn't like. This "thing" has been to known be: brushing,
>cleaning the dog's ears, touching the dog's feet, rubbing his tummy,
>pushing his rear end down to sit, pulling down on his collar while
>teaching him to lay down, not setting his food dish down directly in front
>of him, and making him get off the couch.
None of the above has EVER been a prob for me for my Chows. However, you must
realise that in australia (and possibly other countries), if you are showing
in normal shows (not utility shows), teaching the dog to sit when you stop
walking isnt a good idea. Show judges prefer them to stand near you.
FYI, my most CHOWISH Chow is the one I have now near me as I type. She was
taught by me, however, to retrieve and to DROP purely because someone told me
you would never get a Chow to do that. The DROP command saved her life one day
when a painter painting my house opened the side gate against my wishes when I
was inside and she scooted out. I heard her running so ran out the front and
yelled DROP and she did. Lucky because if she kept going, she would have been
under a car as the gate out the front had been knocked down.
>This behavior problem was even observed in a 3 month old male Chow puppy
>that had been brought to me for private lessons because he had already bit
>every member of the household (5 people). One child even had to have
>stitches. We couldn't even get a collar on the puppy without drastic
A 3 month old biting everyone in the house and causing stitches? Now THIS is
something that has me laughing my arse off! What next? A 12 week old puppy
does this? HAHAHA! Why do you bother typing this? Surely no-one in their right
mind believes this.
>restraint measures. The puppy was not frightened, he just didn't want
>restraint. He actually went ballistic. I have a scar on my left thigh
>where the little guy bit me. He was a loaded time bomb in a cute as a
>button puppy outfit.
Tsk... sure. Pardon me whiule I check on the pigs flying in circles outside.
>The owners were not up for my suggestions for drastic training measures
>and to have him neutered immediately, so my final advice to that family
>was to have the puppy put to sleep and find a new one. Be that as it may,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are a disgrace if that is what you did. A damned disgrace. You shouldnt be
allowed near pups or animals if this is your answer. A pup of that age may
have been mistreated and be fearful but they can be trained out of it.
>you know what they did? They gave the pup away to live on a farm so he
>could roam free.
I am glad they did. I hope they had the sense never to come your way again,
too.
All in all, I find your whole tirade disgraceful and unbelievable and point
out to anybody reading this that THIS is the reason for so many states in so
many countries actually starting to legislate against ALL dogs, regardless of
breed. This sort of CRAP.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Sysop of Amiga's Sci-Fi BBS gr...@hartingdale.com.au Chow Chow lover! |
|Are you old when you enjoy a good headbanger record with others over 40?|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Cain
Jim wrote:> >*Snip*
> >I can recall over 20 different Chows and Chow mixes that have participated
> >in my classes and/or had been in for grooming. At some point, EVERY single
> >one of the Chows actually bit their owner aggressively. Some even drawing
> >blood. To me, this is a red flag situation for the breed. I'm not saying
> >the breed is bad, only that I have made an observation of 20 out of 20 had
> >a discipline problem and should be monitored closely, especially around
> >children.
> >
>
>
> Joanne, prepare yourself to be told that you are an idiot from
> this Gregh scum. He is totally blind concerning this breed and
> becomes exceptionally obnoxious to anyone that sees ANY fault
> in a Chow. I kill-filed the piece of dirt because of his stupid
> rantings. I do agree with you and I have had many, many
> handlers, judges, trainers, and vets tell me that they just
> flat don't like the breed as they are unpredictable and often
> just plain mean when it suits them.
> Jim
Jim,
Perhaps Joanne failed to recognize the owner as the chief contributor
in the discipline problem. Some people lack the skills it takes to
successfully own a strong willed breed and if a trainer lacks the
ability to correct the problem is it really the dogs fault?
Greg made some very valid points which you chose to ignore.
And YOU, unable to present a good counter argument, resorted to THE
name calling. Your lack of Critical Thinking skills is quite obvious.
Your statment "I have had many, many handlers, judges, trainers,
and vets tell me that they just flat don't like the breed as they
are unpredictable" is typical of breed bashers and it just doesn't
cut it. Anybody can say that. Is this the best you can do?
You, not having an in depth understanding of all the issues involved,
which Greg clearly stated, react like the typical breed bashing bigot.
Hopefully you can grow beyond this as bashing any breed on this group
will only serve to undermine your creditability.
Go ahead, call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better.(G)
Best,
Kenneth
Jim
Simply put, it's true.
>Go ahead, call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better.(G)
>
>Best,
>
>Kenneth
Okay Kenneth, you're a blinded idiot too. Hey, you're right! I
feel better. <g> Seriously Kenneth. I do not dislike this
breed. The question was asked if this breed was recommended for
kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
off if not dislike the breed.
Jim
Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Joanne Anderson <j...@atik9setc.com> wrote in article
<01bc3617.c31df780$0a9472ce@default>...
> A pet professionals two cents worth:
snip some serious observations
One of the interesting points Ian Dunbar brought up in the last seminar of
his I attended was the 'problem' with some breeds including the chow. He
feels that this breed among others needs to start socialization with
multiple people before the eyes even open! He has seen this dramatically
improve the handleability of chows so raised.
He also observed that the chows were often considered "perfect" by the
owners. They housebroke easily for example and were little 'gentleman' or
'ladies' in their behavior.In puppy kindergarten where other pups were wild
and crazy the chow pups stood back like stuffed toys and acted very well
behaved i.e. they did not interact with the other pups. He felt that as the
pups did not interact they missed the benefits in learning bite inhibition
and control and rarely if ever got corrected as normally happens with pups
in that situation. These were the pups that graduated kindergarten with
flying colors then later came back as adult dogs with massive behavior
problems. So he changed his training for the breeds he noticed this in and
forced them to interact in PK with very good results in their future
behavior.
Maybe it depends on the line of chows in your area, maybe on the raising
both before and after you get a pup. I will say that Dr. Dunbar did target
the oriental breeds among those that had the most problems in that
behavioral area.
Nancy
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 22 Mar 1997 19:34:01 GMT, Jim <rob...@aug.com>
wrote:
[...]
>The question was asked if this breed was recommended for
>kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
>breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
>trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
>consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
>well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
>any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
>off if not dislike the breed.
>
>Jim
Jim, I've known many, many "AKC judges, pro trainers and handlers, as
well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
Chow.
I know that I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with
allowing my own children to be around a WELL-BRED, WELL-SOCIALIZED,
and WELL-TRAINED Chow. I think the Chow can be an absolutely
wonderful dog -- but no, it's not a dog for EVERYBODY. Few dogs are.
Jim, you're simply blaming the wrong component. Blame the PEOPLE who
carelessly breed chows, do not socialize them properly, do not train
them correctly, and who put their chows into positions where they can
fail. Don't blame the dog, eh?
--
Dogman
qbt...@v1.arg
E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
Joey "Dogs" Vaffanculo Contract Locating and Communication Company
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
Remember the Pierce collies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
gregh
On 22-Mar-97 15:07:59, Jim assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>"Joanne Anderson" <j...@atik9setc.com> wrote:
>>A pet professionals two cents worth:
>>
>>Over the past 20 years or so, I have instructed over 2000 people and their
>>dogs in obedience classes. From puppy classes to Utility training. I am
>>also a professional all breed dog and cat groomer of more than 12 years.
>>
>>I can recall over 20 different Chows and Chow mixes that have participated
>>in my classes and/or had been in for grooming. At some point, EVERY single
>>one of the Chows actually bit their owner aggressively. Some even drawing
>>blood. To me, this is a red flag situation for the breed. I'm not saying
>>the breed is bad, only that I have made an observation of 20 out of 20 had
>>a discipline problem and should be monitored closely, especially around
>>children.
>>
>SNIP
>Joanne, prepare yourself to be told that you are an idiot from
>this Gregh scum. He is totally blind concerning this breed and
>becomes exceptionally obnoxious to anyone that sees ANY fault
>in a Chow. I kill-filed the piece of dirt because of his stupid
>rantings. I do agree with you and I have had many, many
>handlers, judges, trainers, and vets tell me that they just
>flat don't like the breed as they are unpredictable and often
>just plain mean when it suits them.
>Jim
For anyone TRULY wanting a complete description of the word "TWIT", please
read the letter above. How can you refute "I have had many, may tell me" etc?
As he used the word twice, it MUST be true.
It has been said "There are none so blind as they who will not see". It can be
translated into "There is nothing more stupid than prejudice" and in this
twit's case, "There is none so stupidly blind as a prejudicial person who will
not see".
You cannot learn if you dont take in new thoughts and he proves he doesnt WANT
to know the truth by shutting them out.
One day, we can only hope he grows enough to learn common sense. Until then,
we will all eventually end up in his twit list and he will wonder why it is so
quiet in here.
BTW, Jim, thanks for putting me there. I need not see any of your inadequately
thought out and prejudiced bleatings.
Jim
qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman) wrote:
>On a cold day in Hell, 22 Mar 1997 19:34:01 GMT, Jim <rob...@aug.com>
>wrote:
>
>[...]
>>The question was asked if this breed was recommended for
>>kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
>>breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
>>trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
>>consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
>>well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
>>any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
>>off if not dislike the breed.
>>
>>Jim
>
>Jim, I've known many, many "AKC judges, pro trainers and handlers, as
>well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
>Chow.
>
>I know that I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with
>allowing my own children to be around a WELL-BRED, WELL-SOCIALIZED,
>and WELL-TRAINED Chow. I think the Chow can be an absolutely
>wonderful dog -- but no, it's not a dog for EVERYBODY. Few dogs are.
>
>Jim, you're simply blaming the wrong component. Blame the PEOPLE who
>carelessly breed chows, do not socialize them properly, do not train
>them correctly, and who put their chows into positions where they can
>fail. Don't blame the dog, eh?
D-man, I agree tht most of the problems DO in fact lie with the
owner of the dog. One of the points you make is "Carelessly
bred Chows". THESE are the ones that I mainy refer to as being
untrustworthy and often difficult. The same is true of a number
of other breeds. The Dobie and Rottie were originally wonderful
breeds BUT, because of so much backyard breeding, it is hard to
find a good one of either breed. This is also true of many
other breeds as well. Look at the poor Dalmation! Gosh, that
was a absolutely beautiful and great dog before 101 dalmations,
the original, came out and everybody and thier brother started
breeding them until they were mostly basket cases. Just when
breeders were making a comeback with the breed Disney does a
remake and guess what will happen again? There are some very
nice Chows out there, no arguement there but, I still am quite
a bit more watchful of them than most other breeds and would
not recommend them for kids.
Jim
Kenneth Cain
Dogman wrote:
>
> On a cold day in Hell, 22 Mar 1997 19:34:01 GMT, Jim <rob...@aug.com>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
> Chow.
[...]
Thanks Joe,
A Chow breeder in Canada told me that while showing her Chow a judge
ordered her removed from the ring.
When asked why, the judge replied that he would not tolerate a dog
being choked.
She insisted that her Chow was not being choked.
The judge said "It's obvious you are choking the dog because his tongue
is turning blue.
She said that it took several Chow owners to convince the judge
that he was wrong.
Needless to say the judge was quite embarrassed when it was found he
wasn't familiar with the Chow breed standard.
Best,
--
Ken
/\ /\
/^ \'''/ ^\
- -
@ @
___o00o__( )__o00o___
The Chow says "Woof!"
Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
gregh <gr...@hartingdale.com.au> wrote in article
<3612.702...@hartingdale.com.au>...
>
> On 23-Mar-97 06:06:01, Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin assaulted me
about
> Re: Chow Chows
> >Maybe it depends on the line of chows in your area, maybe on the raising
> >both before and after you get a pup. I will say that Dr. Dunbar did
target
> >the oriental breeds among those that had the most problems in that
> >behavioral area.
>
> Nancy!! You keep changing addresses to hide, dont you? ;-}
Say what? - youmusthavemeconfusedwithsomeoneelse <g>- my home computer
address has been the same for the entire time I've been on the net.
snip
> In regards to owners, I can just PICTURE some new Chow owners who know no
> better and want a lap-dog to obey their every whim and clean the toilet
> ordering the dog about. It gets a case of the dirts with the owner and
ignores
> them so the owner starts with a hit here and there that gets worse if the
Chow
> doesnt obey immediately. In the end, you end up with a frightened dog
that may
> be defensive or even associate hitting with humans etc and become
> unmanageable.
snip
Actually what I was referring to is the educated opinion of a well know
behaviorist who was working with pups from homes that started off on the
absolute right foot with the dogs by attending puppy kindergarten - no
hitting implied.
His opinion was that the chows were so self contained that they did not
learn the basic inhibitions that puppy class teaches most dogs. But he did
not decide chows were bad - just that *his* approach to them was wrong and
so he changed it for his clients with excellent results which he was happy
to share with breeders and owners alike. He felt the self containment was
misinterpreted as *good* behavior when in fact the dog was missing out on
basic dog education by being aloof.
As he works with breeders as well as owners he was able to report that by
changing the timing of multiple person socialization and forcing
interaction with other puppies the resulting adult chows were better pets
than ones that he previously had worked with from the same bloodlines and
breeders as well as the 'random' dogs from all the uglier places dogs are
purchased from. I never got an impression that Dr. Dunbar feared or
disliked this breed or any other, just that he viewed them as a new
challenging puzzle as he figured out how best to enhance training and
socialization to fit them into the average dog owner's home.
Nancy
The Carrolls
Here shown is the start of a FIGHT. If we listen to eachother, we can stop
it here and realize the good points from BOTH sides. Jim says that many
dog professionals find chows to be "mean," or a word similar to that.
That's true...the vets & groomers & such usually see the poorer bred ones,
the ones with less care put into them, your everyday ones. But the other
person (who's name I can't find) says that these are the poorer bred ones.
Excellent point. Jim says he's careful with chows around kids. I'd be
careful with any breed around kids. Remember, labs are one of the best
breeds with kids, IMHO, but you really have to watch them cuz they tend to
overdo their love by washing faces, sharing food, and getting a little bit
too exhuberant when playing.
So can we see both sides of this one before it turns into World war 3?
Emily
Jim <rob...@aug.com> wrote in article <5h2boq$8...@news.southeast.net>...
> qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman) wrote:
> >On a cold day in Hell, 22 Mar 1997 19:34:01 GMT, Jim <rob...@aug.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >>The question was asked if this breed was recommended for
> >>kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
> >>breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
> >>trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
> >>consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
> >>well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
> >>any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
> >>off if not dislike the breed.
> >>
> >>Jim
> >
> >Jim, I've known many, many "AKC judges, pro trainers and handlers, as
> >well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
> >Chow.
> >
Kenneth Cain
Kathryn Langdon-Sparks wrote:
I have been involved with dogs for more years than I care to
admit, working as a groomer and trainer and breeding and showing
Chows.
While I concede the point that there are SOME Chows with questionable
temperament, I also realize from personal experience and observation
that this is not limited to the Chow Chow.
I am presently working with a client whose Golden bitch is dog
aggressive, with the greatest urge to eat any dog of any size or
breed that approaches her. Do we then describe all Goldens as vicious
based upon my experience and personal knowledge?
Another client has a Shorthaired Pointer. Sold, on the vet's advice, at six
weeks of age this pup missed the vital socialization stage with Mom
and siblings. The new owners in their wish to comfort this pup
overdid and at twelve weeks this pup ran the household, punishing the
humans if they didn't give in to his demands. A 12 week-old pup had
inflicted over fifty bite/puncture wounds on his owner and 43 on the
wife. Daily sessions and lots of homework and a couple of dedicated
owners and a trainer almost as crazy as they are saw this pup calm
down but he still (almost two years later) needs weekly refresher
sessions. Are ALL GSPs therefore vicious?
As for Chows and children, I have placed all but a few pups in
homes with children and the bond is well forged between Chows and
kids. The parents were careful and taught their children to respect
dogs in general and kid-proofed the puppy as I would hope all dog
owners do. The only pups from our litters not to go to homes with
kids are the ones that stay here as our children are grown up and
gone leaving us with room for another dog... thoughtful kids.
All generalizations are dangerous and your broad spectrum
statement that the Chow as a breed is not safe with children is as
dangerous as any. ALL breeds have their difficult cases and their
misfits, the Chow is no different. Perhaps if you looked beyond your
prejudices you would be surprised by what you see. There are Chows
out there doing therapy visits to hospitals and nursing homes, living
with families, working as Guide dogs and helping physically
challenged owners with household tasks. Some are acting as herd
dogs,other are loved pets doing the just be the family dog
routine.... take a good look...
And, while you are looking beyond those prejudices, come and talk
to the vets in this part of the world... we have several who are
totally comfortable with Chows.
Kathryn Langdon-Sparks
Tigh A'Ruadh Chow Chows Renfrew, Ontario
http://www.renc.igs.net/~chowchows/
There are two kinds of dog: Chows and
dogs that wish they were Chows.
--
Kenneth Cain
The Carrolls wrote:
> I don't know what the standard in Canada is, but here, it's a DQ if the dog
> doesn't have a black or blue tongue. And I don't study standards at
> all...the chow isn't even one of my favorite breeds (not saying anything
> against them, I just don't like the breed, like some of you think bulldogs
> are the ugliest things)
>
> Emily
Hi Emily,
It's a DQ in Canada too. You know more about Chows than the judge did
and yet some people will quote judges and others as though they are
some kind of infallable expert.
Best,
--
Ken
/\ /\
/^ \'''/ ^\
- -
@ @
___o00o__( )__o00o___
The Chow says..."Woof!"
gregh
On 23-Mar-97 05:34:01, Jim assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>Okay Kenneth, you're a blinded idiot too. Hey, you're right! I
>feel better. <g> Seriously Kenneth. I do not dislike this
>breed. The question was asked if this breed was recommended for
>kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
>breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
>trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
>consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
>well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
>any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
>off if not dislike the breed.
Jim,
Whereas, I can call on judges, vets, children, adults, the infirmed, the
crippled, the blind to tell you that you are wrong.
the problem is that your opinion IS your opinion but you dont allow others to
have theirs.
If you wish to call these people, just do it. However, what proof is that on
Internet? I could make myself out to be the President of the USA here if I
took a moment to reorganise my headers.
The only REAL proof is the truth and the truth is simple - an entire breed can
NOT be considered aggressive. That is just prejudice no matter WHO says it.
Anyone who is prejudiced is simply an idiot and not worth the effort of
listening to. Do you still insist on prejudice?
gregh
On 23-Mar-97 06:06:01, Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin assaulted me about
Re: Chow Chows
>Maybe it depends on the line of chows in your area, maybe on the raising
>both before and after you get a pup. I will say that Dr. Dunbar did target
>the oriental breeds among those that had the most problems in that
>behavioral area.
Nancy!! You keep changing addresses to hide, dont you? ;-}
The thing pet behaviourists seem to miss out on in regards to Chows is that
they are dealing with a reasonably intelligent animal that doesnt necessarily
do what a human wants it to do unless there is a reason, for the most part.
Sure there are Chows that are very obedient but usually a Chow will turn the
other way. They, then, perceive this as a problem.
In regards to owners, I can just PICTURE some new Chow owners who know no
better and want a lap-dog to obey their every whim and clean the toilet
ordering the dog about. It gets a case of the dirts with the owner and ignores
them so the owner starts with a hit here and there that gets worse if the Chow
doesnt obey immediately. In the end, you end up with a frightened dog that may
be defensive or even associate hitting with humans etc and become
unmanageable. In a way, this all goes back to the breeder or pet store owner
who sold the Chow. If the would-be owner wants an obedient to the nth degree
dog, they should be TOLD the Chow is a strong willed dog and in all likeliness
isnt going to be that way BEFORE the dog is sold. I know with MY very first
Chow, I was told NOTHING of the sort. It was lucky I read everything I could
on them and talked to other Chow owners and got the idea what they were like.
It was, further, lucky, that I like that sort of individualism in a dog.
Maybe would-be breeders and pet store owners should be MADE to go through a
list of questions with a would-be dog owner to find out what the person is
like before trying to unload a breed on someone who really only sees a cute
puppy and not a "not-so-cute" adult. Then, we may get less dog bites occurring
in ANY breed.
Case in point: Today in the local shopping mall, in the biggest and best pet
shop there was a puppy Chow, 8.5 weeks old according to the store sales
assistants, happy as anything, jumping about and attracting attention because
he was SO CUTE. Everyone there wanted him. No-one there but me knew what breed
he was so you can guess that no-one there had a clue what they were like,
really. A prospective customer asks the sales assistant what height they grow
to. "Oh, not much bigger than it is now!"... oh sure - where did she get THAT?
The customer asked her to get the key to let the dog out of the pen so she
could look at it and when she went away, I told the woman I owned Chows and
showed her how big they get and a book on Chows in the store to prove the
point. It turned out she thought it was a crossbred Pommeranian originally!
HAHAHA! She wanted a small dog. Another customer asked and I told the sales
assistant on the spot that they grew "so high" and indicated the height. She
said "Oh yes, that's right!" Sigh..... Luckily, as it turned out, they wanted
$1200 for it and at that price, no-one REALLY wanted to buy it. Poor thing.
If only people SELLING pups took the time to find what the person wants.
The Carrolls
> A Chow breeder in Canada told me that while showing her Chow a judge
> ordered her removed from the ring.
> When asked why, the judge replied that he would not tolerate a dog
> being choked.
> She insisted that her Chow was not being choked.
> The judge said "It's obvious you are choking the dog because his tongue
> is turning blue.
> She said that it took several Chow owners to convince the judge
> that he was wrong.
>
> Needless to say the judge was quite embarrassed when it was found he
> wasn't familiar with the Chow breed standard.
>
I don't know what the standard in Canada is, but here, it's a DQ if the dog
Kenneth Cain
gregh wrote:
>
> On 23-Mar-97 16:18:13, Kenneth Cain assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
[...]
> Ken,
>
> At least the only time someone told me I was choking MY Chow because hr tongue
> was blue, the guy had the decency to be drunk and hanging out the door of a
> pub! ;-}
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |Sysop of Amiga's Sci-Fi BBS gr...@hartingdale.com.au Chow Chow lover! |
> |Are you old when you enjoy a good headbanger record with others over 40?|
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg, that sure doesn't say much for the judge does it.(G)
BTW, have you noticed that Chows are a rare subject in
news:rec.pets.dogs.behavior
--
Ken
/\ /\ Kenneth Cain
/^ \'''/ ^\
- - ke...@txdirect.net
@ @
___o00o__( )__o00o___ San Antonio, Texas, USA
The Chow says "Woof!"
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
Ella (el...@saix.net) wrote:
: Dang! Life imitates crappy situation comedies and yet again the
: kid knows best and tells us adults how to behave. I think I'm
: going to vomit.
I'm not sure what your point is, since Emily's post was more polite,
mature, and reasonable than your reply to it.
Carol Dunster
On 22 Mar 97 22:43:36 +1000, gr...@hartingdale.com.au (gregh) wrote:
>Joanne, I dont believe that for one moment. I would rather believe MANY more
>years than you OWNING Chows, the experiences of a LIFETIME of my father who
>had to live and work with dogs and sometimes depend on them for survival. Too
>many people like you come out with that only because they have an axe to
>grind. Too many people come out like you and paint a veneer of "I know what I
>am talking about" and then proceed to paint their own inecusable PREJUDICE on
>an entire breed, Chow or any other. This is not intended as a slight on
>you, personally but an observation that MANY people do exactly as you did
>on any number of breeds and they arent professionals at all. Shall we
>believe them all? The simple fact is:
Joanne was very clear that her experience is limited, but that she has
some credentials to show that she understands it for what it is. She
does not show a prejudice - she had experience before she formed her
opinion. She does not say that all Chows are dangerous, or any other
claptrap like that. She says that IN HER EXPERIENCE AS A PROFESSIONAL
TRAINER, people should be careful with Chows around children. This
seems quite sensible to me - I think people should be careful with all
breeds around children!
>1) No entire breed is aggressive. This is the same as "The entire Caucasian
>race is NOT aggressive" or "The entire black African race is NOT aggressive"
>when referring to humans.
Joanne does not say anything like that!
>2) If you ARE a professional dog trainer who deals with dogs with disciplinary
>problems then obviously you WILL see more of any particular breed with a
>problem. This does NOT mean an entire breed is bad. Common sense tells anyone,
>professionals included, this. To claim otherwise *IS* a slight against your
>professional reputation. No true professional would make such a claim.
I think that you read a great deal more into the passages you are
quoting than I did. You might consider rereading a post and your
answer before posting it. You are obviously very passionate about your
breed, but not as obviously objective about what you read...
Joanne:
>>Generally speaking, I believe that Chow Chows may have a very loving and
>>devoted attitude towards their owners. This could be the case until they
>>are asked to do (or not to do something) they (the Chow) don't agree with.
>That is just pure rot.
>snip examples
> So, as I have claimed
>SIGNIFICANTLY more than 20 and you have claimed 20, by the law of averages and
>by YOUR example, should I claim ALL the breed is OK? Nope. Some Chows ARENT OK
>but then some owners arent OK either.
Joanne does not claim that all Chows are nasty, just that people
should be aware of a breed tendency to require special care. Something
that you go on to say yourself!
Joanne:
>>In obedience you will come to a point of refusal with almost any dog.
>>Chows just don't seem to accept authority from anyone or anything.
>Chows are not a dog I would bother to utility train. There have been
>successful cases and so on but I have found that all but one of my own Chows
>was "aloof" as they are supposed to be and highly intelligent. They are not
>predisposed to do something unless they see a reason or want to do it just
>because you tell them to do it - the ones I have owned, I mean.
Notice that you go on here to say that they are aloof and a not as
well suited for Obedience as some breeds. Joanne says that they tend
to be a bit stubborn and you say that they want a reason before they
will work for you. I don't see a huge difference of opinion here...
>snip
Joanne:
>>Most owners may actually recognize the problem, but just avoids doing the
>>thing the dog doesn't like. This "thing" has been to known be: brushing,
>>cleaning the dog's ears, touching the dog's feet, rubbing his tummy,
>>pushing his rear end down to sit, pulling down on his collar while
>>teaching him to lay down, not setting his food dish down directly in front
>>of him, and making him get off the couch.
>None of the above has EVER been a prob for me for my Chows. However, you must
>realise that in australia (and possibly other countries), if you are showing
>in normal shows (not utility shows), teaching the dog to sit when you stop
>walking isnt a good idea. Show judges prefer them to stand near you.
What I see is that you are a very experience owner of Chows. In all
probability you have the sort of dog handling habits that teach your
dogs early on to be subordinate to your wishes without giving you a
bad time. With that sort of upbringing, even a tough and touchy breed
(which I don't believe Chows to necessarily be) can be a good reliable
pet. A more average pet owner probably needs more dog handling skills
to be a good Chow owner and to get the sort of results that you get
without even thinking about it. If you are totally honest, you will
admit that your breed (like ALL others!) isn't for everyone! I have no
trouble with Chows myself, but I am an experienced dog handler/groomer
and can easily see where others might. They are not an "easy" breed
and may be more aggressive in the USA than they are in Australia -
blood lines differ.
>FYI, my most CHOWISH Chow is the one I have now near me as I type. She was
>taught by me, however, to retrieve and to DROP purely because someone told me
>you would never get a Chow to do that.
>snip
That proves that you are a good trainer, not necessarily that she
would be easy for a novice to train!
Joanne:
>>This behavior problem was even observed in a 3 month old male Chow puppy
>>that had been brought to me for private lessons because he had already bit
>>every member of the household (5 people). One child even had to have
>>stitches. We couldn't even get a collar on the puppy without drastic
>A 3 month old biting everyone in the house and causing stitches? Now THIS is
>something that has me laughing my arse off! What next? A 12 week old puppy
>does this? HAHAHA! Why do you bother typing this? Surely no-one in their right
>mind believes this.
Obviously you would never allow this to happen with your dogs (and I
wouldn't with mine, whatever their breed), but it certainly could
happen. There was a guy that couldn't control his 9 week old Beagle
puppy online last month...
Joanne:
>>restraint measures. The puppy was not frightened, he just didn't want
>>restraint. He actually went ballistic. I have a scar on my left thigh
>>where the little guy bit me. He was a loaded time bomb in a cute as a
>>button puppy outfit.
>snip ridicule
Joanne:
>>The owners were not up for my suggestions for drastic training measures
>>and to have him neutered immediately, so my final advice to that family
>>was to have the puppy put to sleep and find a new one. Be that as it may,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>You are a disgrace if that is what you did. A damned disgrace. You shouldnt be
>allowed near pups or animals if this is your answer. A pup of that age may
>have been mistreated and be fearful but they can be trained out of it.
A pup that age could just as easily have been very poorly bred (not
all are as careful with their breeding stock as you are!) and just
plain nasty nuts. I have seen it happen occasionally with other
breeds. It can be genetic and you are not doing your breed a service
if you are afraid to admit that poor breeding practices can foster
this type of temperament. I have seen the occasional puppy in my first
breed (English Setters) that totally went against the breed type of
loving, sweet, English gentleman and was just plain unreliably nasty.
When it happened with one of my carefully raised dogs (from birth), I
realized that my breed has a problem. The dog was put to sleep (though
pointed in the show ring and fully obedience trained) and his parents
were desexed (though typically sweet and loving) and placed as pets.
The problem is rare, but it exists and I see breeders blaming poor
temperaments on environment. That is very dangerous to the breed's
future. Breeders must be very objective about their breed to make a
positive difference and all faults must be considered from a genetic
viewpoint.
Joanne:
>>you know what they did? They gave the pup away to live on a farm so he
>>could roam free.
>I am glad they did. I hope they had the sense never to come your way again,
>too.
Actually this action was totally irresponsible. If the puppy was
dangerous, it could injure someone and they would be responsible for
it (possibly even legally, as they knew the dog to have problems).
There is no excuse for letting a dog like this to go, except to a
fully informed owner that has the emotional and training tools to
properly deal with it! What if the dog were to kill a child? It
happens and, no matter what the reason, this dog was headed the wrong
direction. Not all owners have 20 years experience dealing with Chows
and could deal properly with this puppy. Children are more important
than dogs. (If we don't agree on that, I think we can't agree on
anything of importance!)
>All in all, I find your whole tirade disgraceful and unbelievable and point
>out to anybody reading this that THIS is the reason for so many states in so
>many countries actually starting to legislate against ALL dogs, regardless of
>breed. This sort of CRAP.
No, I saw no evidence of a tirade, except for yours! She stated her
experience and her evidence and came up with a reasonable conclusion.
As far as I can see, her advice was for people to be careful with
Chows around children and that they can be stubborn and some of them
resent training. I am quite sure that this is true and that Chows are
*not* a dog for every owner. This is not changed just because you are
an owner that is well suited to Chows and very well experienced. Chows
would have a better reputation, if people were more cautious about
purchasing them. If Chows are purchased by people that are prepared to
deal with there temperament, the owners will do better with them and
keep them under control and others will be impressed...
Carol
--
Patchwork English Setters and
Carwyn Silky Terriers
http://www.prodogs.com/dbn/carwyn/index.htm
gregh
On 23-Mar-97 16:18:13, Kenneth Cain assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>>
>> Jim, I've known many, many "AKC judges, pro trainers and handlers, as
>> well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
>> Chow.
>[...]
>Thanks Joe,
>A Chow breeder in Canada told me that while showing her Chow a judge
>ordered her removed from the ring.
>When asked why, the judge replied that he would not tolerate a dog
>being choked.
>She insisted that her Chow was not being choked.
>The judge said "It's obvious you are choking the dog because his tongue
>is turning blue.
>She said that it took several Chow owners to convince the judge
>that he was wrong.
>Needless to say the judge was quite embarrassed when it was found he
>wasn't familiar with the Chow breed standard.
Ken,
Ella
Dang! Life imitates crappy situation comedies and yet again the
kid knows best and tells us adults how to behave. I think I'm
going to vomit.
At fifteen I would say you have passed your 'sell by date' for
'cute', Emily, and are rapidly approaching Buttinski status.
Is this just an American phenomena (children being wiser, more
intelligent, moral, pacific and saintlier than adults)? And if
so, is this the real reason that Chelsea goes everywhere with
her folks: so that her pearls of wisdom and mediatory skills are
constantly and readily available? Tee-hee.
Ella
"Cute teenagers exist only on television, I
suspect. I know there are none in my
neighborhood".
Robert MacKenzie, TV Guide, 1979
gregh
On 25-Mar-97 08:53:05, Kenneth Cain assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>>
>> At least the only time someone told me I was choking MY Chow because hr
>> tongue was blue, the guy had the decency to be drunk and hanging out the
>> door of a pub! ;-}
>Greg, that sure doesn't say much for the judge does it.(G)
Ken,
Judges can be odd creatures. I actually applied for and got a job at a place
where the boss turned out to be a dog show judge I had known for years. He
didnt have Chows but knew what they were supposed to be in "show terms" of
course. He ended up telling me that yes, he HAD disqualified more than one
Chow from the ring but in percentages per breed, Chows were way down the list.
Eg, percentages based on numbers of a particular breed. You would think with
less Chows here than a lot of other breeds and thus the percentage curve
caused by ONE Chow being disqualified having more effect than one animal in a
more popylar breed, we would have been higher. He was surprised, too. ;-} He
knows the reputation Chows have gotten and he agreed with me when I said it is
largely founded on the aspirations of others' needs rather than fact.
>BTW, have you noticed that Chows are a rare subject in
>news:rec.pets.dogs.behavior
It probably means well behaved animals dont need a lot said about them? ;-}
gregh
On 24-Mar-97 01:01:01, Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin assaulted me about
Re: Chow Chows
>> >Maybe it depends on the line of chows in your area, maybe on the raising
>> >both before and after you get a pup. I will say that Dr. Dunbar did
>target
>> >the oriental breeds among those that had the most problems in that
>> >behavioral area.
>>
>> Nancy!! You keep changing addresses to hide, dont you? ;-}
>Say what? - youmusthavemeconfusedwithsomeoneelse <g>- my home computer
>address has been the same for the entire time I've been on the net.
Nancy,
Really? Oh so it was. It was ME who changed addresses. ;-} I have a saved
letter from you from Aug 21, 1996. ;-}
>snip
>> In regards to owners, I can just PICTURE some new Chow owners who know no
>> better and want a lap-dog to obey their every whim and clean the toilet
>> ordering the dog about. It gets a case of the dirts with the owner and
>ignores
>> them so the owner starts with a hit here and there that gets worse if the
>Chow
>> doesnt obey immediately. In the end, you end up with a frightened dog
>that may
>> be defensive or even associate hitting with humans etc and become
>> unmanageable.
>snip
>Actually what I was referring to is the educated opinion of a well know
>behaviorist who was working with pups from homes that started off on the
>absolute right foot with the dogs by attending puppy kindergarten - no
>hitting implied.
Yeah and I was referring generically and not to the doctor in particular with
that comment. I meant the animals he SEES may well be LIKE that because of the
scenario I gave you and how easy it is to visualise it happenign with owners
who know no better. As such, I contend that people working with problem
animals will see any particular breed they pick out of those they see as a
problem, more than anyone else would - or that at least the possibility of
that being the case is higher. In the case of Dr. Dunbar, this is probably not
true but in the case of others, probably so. Very few people seem to have the
ability to reason things out like my vet, for instance, who takes all animals
as individuals, though they are members of a breed.
> His opinion was that the chows were so self contained that they did not
>learn the basic inhibitions that puppy class teaches most dogs. But he did
>not decide chows were bad - just that *his* approach to them was wrong and
>so he changed it for his clients with excellent results which he was happy
>to share with breeders and owners alike. He felt the self containment was
>misinterpreted as *good* behavior when in fact the dog was missing out on
>basic dog education by being aloof.
It's good to see someone with sense enough to realise the mistake being made
was not the breed's fault.
> As he works with breeders as well as owners he was able to report that by
>changing the timing of multiple person socialization and forcing
>interaction with other puppies the resulting adult chows were better pets
>than ones that he previously had worked with from the same bloodlines and
>breeders as well as the 'random' dogs from all the uglier places dogs are
>purchased from. I never got an impression that Dr. Dunbar feared or
>disliked this breed or any other, just that he viewed them as a new
>challenging puzzle as he figured out how best to enhance training and
>socialization to fit them into the average dog owner's home.
There is no doubt that Chows are different. Their reactions to certain things
imply thought deeper than you would normally think a dog would be able to
attain. It is probably this ability which keeps me continually amazed with
them. I had a Chow who worked out that by pushing on one corner of her cage,
the frame pushed out of line and it sprung the gate so she could get into the
back yard. When I wired it shut, she worked out how to climb out the window of
the inside part of it and jump out. You really needed to be on your toes with
her! ;-}
gregh
On 24-Mar-97 14:41:36, Kenneth Cain assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>> I don't know what the standard in Canada is, but here, it's a DQ if the dog
>> doesn't have a black or blue tongue. And I don't study standards at
>> all...the chow isn't even one of my favorite breeds (not saying anything
>> against them, I just don't like the breed, like some of you think bulldogs
>> are the ugliest things)
>>
>> Emily
>Hi Emily,
>It's a DQ in Canada too. You know more about Chows than the judge did
>and yet some people will quote judges and others as though they are
>some kind of infallable expert.
Ken,
Exactly! Yet they dont always see police as infallible when the actions of a
policeman are of a lot more importance than a show judge! Amazing, aint it?
gregh
On 25-Mar-97 01:46:38, Carol Dunster assaulted me about Re: Chow Chows
>>Joanne, I dont believe that for one moment. I would rather believe MANY more
>>years than you OWNING Chows, the experiences of a LIFETIME of my father who
>>had to live and work with dogs and sometimes depend on them for survival.
>>Too many people like you come out with that only because they have an axe to
>>grind. Too many people come out like you and paint a veneer of "I know what
>>I am talking about" and then proceed to paint their own inecusable PREJUDICE
>>on an entire breed, Chow or any other. This is not intended as a slight on
>>you, personally but an observation that MANY people do exactly as you did on
>>any number of breeds and they arent professionals at all. Shall we believe
>>them all? The simple fact is:
>Joanne was very clear that her experience is limited, but that she has
>some credentials to show that she understands it for what it is. She
>does not show a prejudice - she had experience before she formed her
>opinion. She does not say that all Chows are dangerous, or any other
>claptrap like that. She says that IN HER EXPERIENCE AS A PROFESSIONAL
>TRAINER, people should be careful with Chows around children. This
>seems quite sensible to me - I think people should be careful with all
>breeds around children!
Carol,
Then you can see the prejudice if you typed it BACK at me. This isnt to say
that Joanne is KNOWINGLY prejudiced. Most humans are surprised and embarrassed
when their own prejudice is shown and proven to them.
What IS prejudice is to say "you should be careful around children with
Chows". It is prejudicial to pull one breed out of all breeds like that. IMHO,
you should be reasonably aware around ANY child with ANY dog of ANY breed or
crossbreed. The most lovely natured dog in the world may turn and snap at a
child purely because the child has purposely or accidentally done something to
hurt the animal. This doesnt make that animal OR it's breed bad.
I have HAD one Chow I wasnt comfortable to trust around children with me there
but when this Chow was about a 6 month old, I had her at a car show and a kid
jumped out of nowhere and slapped her SO hard and gave her SUCH a fright that
when I picked her up, crying and whimpering and took her out to a grassy spot
that was mostly clear of humans, she immediately evacuated her bowels in
fright. I thought, with the howling, that she had an eye damaged but
thankfully it was just the fright. From that moment on, she was afraid of kids
though not adults and a dog that is AFRAID of something may react in a way you
dont want it to react. Having said that, I still occasionally held her while
young neices and nephews gave her a pat. She didnt like it but she knew I
wouldnt let them hurt her. All the rest of my Chows, however, didnt have this
problem. Some werent really all that happy to play with kids and some let them
sleep on them, much the same as any breakup of any breed. In any breed, you
can get individuals who are the opposite of what the breed is supposed to be
like. Add this to my experience with ALL Chows I have known over the years
through shows and breeders and I have a much more extensive base of experience
to draw from, ON THIS BREED, to say: A) She is wrong in her contention. Chows
are no more or less trustworthy, AS A BREED, with kids than any other breeds.
2) Picking ONE breed out, be it Chows, Labradors, you name it, IS prejudicial.
>>1) No entire breed is aggressive. This is the same as "The entire Caucasian
>>race is NOT aggressive" or "The entire black African race is NOT aggressive"
>>when referring to humans.
>Joanne does not say anything like that!
Please read my comment as I typed it. You are making something out of nothing
here. Did I claim she said that about those human races mentioned?
>>2) If you ARE a professional dog trainer who deals with dogs with
>>disciplinary problems then obviously you WILL see more of any particular
>>breed with a problem. This does NOT mean an entire breed is bad. Common
>>sense tells anyone, professionals included, this. To claim otherwise *IS* a
>>slight against your professional reputation. No true professional would make
>>such a claim.
>I think that you read a great deal more into the passages you are
>quoting than I did. You might consider rereading a post and your
>answer before posting it. You are obviously very passionate about your
>breed, but not as obviously objective about what you read...
I think you read a great deal LESS in my reply than you want to admit. It is a
plain and simple truth. If you are a professional dealing with dogs with a
problem, then yes, you WILL see more of any breed you care to name that DOES
have a problem. If you are a TRUE professional, to claim that any particular
BREED as a whole, has more aggression problems than any other simply IS a
slight against your own professional reputation. It makes not one iota of
difference if you claim otherwise. It IS a fact. Would you take your car to a
mechanic who claims that the sort of car you have is crap just because 4 out
of 4000 have problems? I would have to think the mechanic has a problem.
>Joanne:
>>>Generally speaking, I believe that Chow Chows may have a very loving and
>>>devoted attitude towards their owners. This could be the case until they
>>>are asked to do (or not to do something) they (the Chow) don't agree with.
>>That is just pure rot.
>>snip examples
>> So, as I have claimed
>>SIGNIFICANTLY more than 20 and you have claimed 20, by the law of averages
>>and by YOUR example, should I claim ALL the breed is OK? Nope. Some Chows
>>ARENT OK but then some owners arent OK either.
>Joanne does not claim that all Chows are nasty, just that people
>should be aware of a breed tendency to require special care. Something
>that you go on to say yourself!
She DOES claim that they are a "very loving breed and caring breed ....until
asked to do something they dont want to do, by their owners". The inference
she makes is that when asked to do something they dont want to do, they ARENT
loving which leads the reader to believe something bad will happen. This is
just pure rot! There is no other word for it. I ask my Chows to do something,
daily, that they dont want to do - whether that is to come inside or to go to
bed etc when they dont want to - and though they openly DISPLAY that they dont
want to do it and as young animals, will go to lengths to get out of doing it
(such as running out of your reach), they will eventually do it, anyway. At no
time do my Chows - ANY of them - display any attitude other than reluctance or
a positive want to NOT do it by staying out of your reach.
If you read otherwise in her comment, then I agree that maybe her comment was
just badly worded but on the face of it, it didnt look a bit like anything
other than a veiled warning.
>Joanne:
>>>In obedience you will come to a point of refusal with almost any dog.
>>>Chows just don't seem to accept authority from anyone or anything.
>>Chows are not a dog I would bother to utility train. There have been
>>successful cases and so on but I have found that all but one of my own Chows
>>was "aloof" as they are supposed to be and highly intelligent. They are not
>>predisposed to do something unless they see a reason or want to do it just
>>because you tell them to do it - the ones I have owned, I mean.
>Notice that you go on here to say that they are aloof and a not as
>well suited for Obedience as some breeds. Joanne says that they tend
I said that they are not a breed *I* would bother to utility train. I am,
though, NOT someone personally predisposed to making animals jump through
hoops. I dont wish to denigrate utility training. Let me say it just isnt
something I consider *I* like. However, in all the cases I have known, I cant
say I have seen a lot of Chows that would MAKE great utility show dogs. I
owned one that probably would have beaten MOST other dogs into submission. She
was obedient on ANYTHING and so agile that she would have been able to do
those things they require at those shows.
>to be a bit stubborn and you say that they want a reason before they
>will work for you. I don't see a huge difference of opinion here...
Then the comment that she makes "Chows dont seem to accept authority from
anyone or anything" means nothing to you? It means to me she is saying, which
she IS saying, that they are totally untrainable. How you see otherwise, I
dont know. That contention of hers is not true, however.
>>snip
>Joanne:
>>>Most owners may actually recognize the problem, but just avoids doing the
>>>thing the dog doesn't like. This "thing" has been to known be: brushing,
>>>cleaning the dog's ears, touching the dog's feet, rubbing his tummy,
>>>pushing his rear end down to sit, pulling down on his collar while
>>>teaching him to lay down, not setting his food dish down directly in front
>>>of him, and making him get off the couch.
>>None of the above has EVER been a prob for me for my Chows. However, you
>>must realise that in australia (and possibly other countries), if you are
>>showing in normal shows (not utility shows), teaching the dog to sit when
>>you stop walking isnt a good idea. Show judges prefer them to stand near
>>you.
>What I see is that you are a very experience owner of Chows. In all
>probability you have the sort of dog handling habits that teach your
>dogs early on to be subordinate to your wishes without giving you a
^^^^^^^^^^^
No, sorry, that just ISNT the case except where the need to subordinate them
is paramount to their health. Some of my Chows hated needles and would squirm
when about to get one and I would darnedwell make sure I held them still so
the needle wouldnt hurt them but some just stand there and dont show any
reaction, such as my current one. However, in normal circumstances, I DONT
like to subordinate ANY animal. Intellectually, they arent the equal of humans
but I like to make my dogs aware that they are treated as well as I can treat
them. In part, I do this by NOT requiring that they change to meet MY needs
more than is necessary to their well being (eg, I refuse to let them run out
the gate when it is open etc). It is my *PERSONAL* opinion (that I hold
without proof other than my own dogs over the years) that the more natural you
can make your animal, the less the problems/chance of problems. My brother in
law has a lovely natured puppy miniature Daschy. It has a loving personality
and is a dog you could just take home with you the minute you meet it.
However, his wife has been making it do this, that and the other, in order to
show off it's tricks to people who visit. It has gone a little nutty since she
started that. I cant think of anything worse than driving my dogs insane for
personal vanity.
>bad time. With that sort of upbringing, even a tough and touchy breed
>(which I don't believe Chows to necessarily be) can be a good reliable
I often call my current girl in, who is not a TYPICAL Chow in that she is MORE
self-willed than any Chow I have known and she looks at me with her nose in
the air. I cant help but laugh and the moment I do, she grins back at me. She
tells me what SHE wants by either jumping on the spot (meaning "come out and
play" in her way) or she will then come in as I wanted. She just likes to play
tricks on me. Oh, dont believe it isnt possible in case that is what you are
thinking. I sometimes try and sneak up on her when she is on the opposite side
of our outside laundry and she will quickly sneak out of sight and come up
behind ME and stick a cold wet nose in the back of my leg. She thinks it is
funny because she sits there grinning at me, afterwards. I realise you stated
you dont necessarily believe the breed to be tough etc but if an individual of
a breed was to be called "tough", this current Chow of mine would deserve that
more than any other Chow. Even WITH that, she STILL is obedient. She also has
a lovely personality with a practical joker streak! Rotten Dog! ;-}
>pet. A more average pet owner probably needs more dog handling skills
>to be a good Chow owner and to get the sort of results that you get
Yes and no. Yes if you want to teach the dog to be a Utility trial dog and no
if you just want it to be reasonable and friendly as I do. If anybody with ANY
dog would just take the time out to study the dog's reactions when things
happen, they will get to know their dog that much better. I know people in
this group probably DO fall into that category but the majority of dog owners
DONT seem that able to see their pet as anything other than a dog. They can be
so much more, given a chance.
>without even thinking about it. If you are totally honest, you will
>admit that your breed (like ALL others!) isn't for everyone! I have no
Yes, I have said that and recently, because of the situation of one person who
owns a Chow, I advised that they contact the local Chow club in their area and
ask if there is any way they can help placing it in a home. This person had a
situation where, unfortunately, any strong dog would be a burden. I mean
PHYSICALLY strong, BTW. A Pommeranian or other small dog would be much better.
You cant say ANY breed is suited for ALL people. Eg, I love ALL dogs but I
wouldnt personally like to have a breed that just wont leave you alone all day
or bark all day. My Chows bark when there is a reason but unfortunately, that
reason is sometimes the local fence-walking cat and of course you cant let the
dogs bark on and on if you want good neighbour relationships. I make mine stop
if that is the case and if there is another good reason, I investigate it.
However, when the cat isnt around and there is no-one entering the front gate
etc, they are content not to be a noisy lot. ;-}
>trouble with Chows myself, but I am an experienced dog handler/groomer
>and can easily see where others might. They are not an "easy" breed
>and may be more aggressive in the USA than they are in Australia -
>blood lines differ.
Well to be honest I cant comment on that bit because I am not 100% sure what
you mean by "easy".
>>FYI, my most CHOWISH Chow is the one I have now near me as I type. She was
>>taught by me, however, to retrieve and to DROP purely because someone told
>>me you would never get a Chow to do that. snip
>That proves that you are a good trainer, not necessarily that she
>would be easy for a novice to train!
To be honest, I thought she would be near impossible to get to do this but
fortunately she wasnt. It was quite easy. The "Good girl" and cuddle are a
real incentive to do something when I really want her to do it. ;-}
>Joanne:
>>>This behavior problem was even observed in a 3 month old male Chow puppy
>>>that had been brought to me for private lessons because he had already bit
>>>every member of the household (5 people). One child even had to have
>>>stitches. We couldn't even get a collar on the puppy without drastic
>>A 3 month old biting everyone in the house and causing stitches? Now THIS is
>>something that has me laughing my arse off! What next? A 12 week old puppy
>>does this? HAHAHA! Why do you bother typing this? Surely no-one in their
>>right mind believes this.
>Obviously you would never allow this to happen with your dogs (and I
>wouldn't with mine, whatever their breed), but it certainly could
>happen. There was a guy that couldn't control his 9 week old Beagle
>puppy online last month...
Like any puppy of any breed with the snout/mouth large enough to do it, a Chow
may grab your hand and/or arm in excitement. Pups do this. ALL my life with
fullbreds and crossbreds, it has been the same. No particular breed was any
more or less this way. However, I have never seen ANY breed cause stitches
with milk teeth. Sure, I have been moving my hand when a pup grabs it and it
causes a scratch (and believe me, milk teeth scratches STING!) but none have
ever caused one stitch. My sister's crossbreed dog, when a pup, used to do the
same thing and even grabbed her 7 month old daughter's arm with milk teeth. No
marks, no probs. I can understand a NEWBORN human baby may well get a tear
inthe skin even from milk teeth but you would have to be a dope to put a
newborn near a puppy so that this happens, dont you think?
I seriously doubt the statement that a 12 week old pup caused all that damage.
>Joanne:
>>>restraint measures. The puppy was not frightened, he just didn't want
>>>restraint. He actually went ballistic. I have a scar on my left thigh
>>>where the little guy bit me. He was a loaded time bomb in a cute as a
>>>button puppy outfit.
>>snip ridicule
>Joanne:
>>>The owners were not up for my suggestions for drastic training measures
>>>and to have him neutered immediately, so my final advice to that family
>>>was to have the puppy put to sleep and find a new one. Be that as it may,
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>You are a disgrace if that is what you did. A damned disgrace. You shouldnt
>>be allowed near pups or animals if this is your answer. A pup of that age
>>may have been mistreated and be fearful but they can be trained out of it.
>A pup that age could just as easily have been very poorly bred (not
>all are as careful with their breeding stock as you are!) and just
That is just unprovable rubbish with TWO exceptions. Constant in-breeding CAN
lead to unforseen consequences. A HEALTH problem may ALSO lead to
unforseen consequences. They are the ONLY exceptions. ANY pup from ANY
breeding can be trained to be a civil animal. ANY breed, also. Otherwise it
cant be proven. I dont know of anyone ever proving a genetic link in any breed
or breeding predisposing it towards aggression. If someone ever DOES prove
that, then their's the proof.
>plain nasty nuts. I have seen it happen occasionally with other
>breeds. It can be genetic and you are not doing your breed a service
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*ONLY* if there is a recessive gene inside a particular breeding that causes a
recurring and provable health problem that leads towards canine mental
instability. If you mean otherwise, sorry but that is rubbish.
>if you are afraid to admit that poor breeding practices can foster
>this type of temperament. I have seen the occasional puppy in my first
Poor breeding has nothing to do with temperament and you have NO clinical
proof of the opposite. You have a lot of breeders who continually say they
breed AWAY from aggression or that someone else's stock are agressive because
they dont bother to do that but it is simple provable logic that ANY dog can
be aggressive and it is based upon their upbringing or circumstances in
their lives in nearly every case and their health in others. In very RARE
cases, a genetic disorder may cause health probs which cause aggression but
this is RARE and in no way anything that breeders can claim for nearly every
occasion that they state "poor breeding" as the problem. Poor breeding often
produces non-show quality animals but at the moment of their birth, they are a
blank slate just like human children.
>breed (English Setters) that totally went against the breed type of
>loving, sweet, English gentleman and was just plain unreliably nasty.
OK but why? Did you realise that some people see "nasty" because of a
misconception on their part? Eg, a boisterous pup who is teething may
occasionally decide to use you as a teething ring and this is seen as nasty.
It is nothing but puppy bad judgement. However, it takes the ability to SEE
this for what it is. I even had to correct a pet shop owner the other day who
said a pup was badly biting his staff. I got it out and it grabbed my arm but
you could tell there was no vicious intent. I told him to put something in
there for it to chew on and that was all it took. Of course, the pup wouldnt
let go of the chew toy when picked up so I guess if you buy the pup, you get
it's chew toy as part of the package. ;-}
>When it happened with one of my carefully raised dogs (from birth), I
>realized that my breed has a problem. The dog was put to sleep (though
>pointed in the show ring and fully obedience trained) and his parents
>were desexed (though typically sweet and loving) and placed as pets.
I would love to know what ALL the facts were, though. I am not having a go at
YOU when I say this but I contend we never WILL know, now. I contend there was
something you missed in your summation of the situation, not that you were
wrong in what you came up with based on what you could recognise. I am sorry
to say that to you but without proof (and it is all gone now) then there can
never be a way to say this to you that you will believe. Just think on it for
the future. Maybe whatever made your dog aggressive happened outside of your
sight. My Chows used to be teased by a local brat of a kid and the elder of
them that was alive at the time heard the kid coming (he was talking and I was
watching from inside the house as I just happened to look out the window at
what my girls were up to at that time). She pushed into the garden to be out
of sight and when the kid came into her sight, she jumped at him from out of
the bushes - she was behind the fence the whole time - and scared the heck
out of the kid and she was actually grinning at her success. The kid was about
to throw the tennis ball he had into her head when I intervened. He never DID
tease them again after that. Now, you can imagine how I would have reacted to
seeing her jump out at him had I not known he teased them, before that time. I
would have been very worried. Without the WHOLE proof, you can only make
judgements based on what you know.
>The problem is rare, but it exists and I see breeders blaming poor
>temperaments on environment. That is very dangerous to the breed's
>future. Breeders must be very objective about their breed to make a
>positive difference and all faults must be considered from a genetic
>viewpoint.
There is NO genetic proof that aggressive traits are passed from one dog to
another in the normal run of things. Sure, they have to be trained to be
socially acceptable but so do your HUMAN kids! The unfortunate fact is that
more dogs are socially acceptable than human kids near me!
>Joanne:
>>>you know what they did? They gave the pup away to live on a farm so he
>>>could roam free.
>>I am glad they did. I hope they had the sense never to come your way again,
>>too.
>Actually this action was totally irresponsible. If the puppy was
>dangerous, it could injure someone and they would be responsible for
>it (possibly even legally, as they knew the dog to have problems).
I guess it depends on the facts again. Maybe the people taking it knew the
probs and took it thinking they could cure them. When I was 6 years old, my
father took an adult Collie from people up the road when they offered it to
him. They said it was going to be put down if he didnt take it. The poor dog
had been mistreated and it took weeks before the poor thing would come out of
it's hiding spot in our yard even to eat. It would only eat when everyone was
inside and only then facing the house. If any of us went outside, it would go
into hiding again. After many weeks, my father succeeded in getting it to come
out for him and weeks after that, it allowed us to get near it but no-one
other than my father to pat it. Eventually, because of the way my father
insisted we treat it and the way it saw we responded, it eventually came out,
became a socially acceptable well adjusted dog and liked to have us kids sit
on a hessian bag and drag us around the yard on it. However, before coming to
us, it was labelled "vicious". It simply was NOT. It probably DID try to
attack the guy mistreating it, though. I am sure *I* would have a go at
someone kicking into me, too!
>There is no excuse for letting a dog like this to go, except to a
>fully informed owner that has the emotional and training tools to
>properly deal with it! What if the dog were to kill a child? It
How do you know they DIDNT know the full facts?
>happens and, no matter what the reason, this dog was headed the wrong
>direction. Not all owners have 20 years experience dealing with Chows
>and could deal properly with this puppy. Children are more important
>than dogs. (If we don't agree on that, I think we can't agree on
>anything of importance!)
There's no reason to be smart about this subject, really.
>>All in all, I find your whole tirade disgraceful and unbelievable and point
>>out to anybody reading this that THIS is the reason for so many states in so
>>many countries actually starting to legislate against ALL dogs, regardless
>>of breed. This sort of CRAP.
>No, I saw no evidence of a tirade, except for yours! She stated her
Then you refuse to see that which is in evidence.
>experience and her evidence and came up with a reasonable conclusion.
Oh - it is reasonable to tell someone to put the dog down, is it? You replace
or get rid of a car that is bad but you dont treat a dog like an appliance. If
you cant believe this, then you shouldnt have dogs OR animals at all.
>As far as I can see, her advice was for people to be careful with
>Chows around children and that they can be stubborn and some of them
...yes and as I said, that is just plain prejudice. You have to have a certain
amount of awareness around children with ANY breed. Not Chows in particular.
>resent training. I am quite sure that this is true and that Chows are
It isnt a case of resnting to be trained. It is a case of an intelligence that
wants to know a reason for doing something. They dont just get up and come
because YOU feel like it at all times (my Chows at least, with the exception
of 1) but they WILL do just that if THEY feel like it.
>*not* a dog for every owner. This is not changed just because you are
Of course they arent a breed for everyone. ALL breeds are equally not for
everyone. Some people dont like red dogs so individuals within a breed that
are red dont suit some people!
>an owner that is well suited to Chows and very well experienced. Chows
It doesnt change the TRUTH, either, no matter how much you deny it.
>would have a better reputation, if people were more cautious about
>purchasing them. If Chows are purchased by people that are prepared to
>deal with there temperament, the owners will do better with them and
>keep them under control and others will be impressed...
The same, however, can be said of ANY breed. I hope you dont seriously
disagree with that. Joanne's having picked CHOWS out *IS* prejudicial, if you
DO agree.
Paul Green
Susan Mudgett aka little gator <s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us> wrote in
article <5h6t98$f...@harvee.billerica.ma.us>...
>
> Ella (el...@saix.net) wrote:
> : Dang! Life imitates crappy situation comedies and yet again the
> : kid knows best and tells us adults how to behave. I think I'm
> : going to vomit.
>
> I'm not sure what your point is, since Emily's post was more polite,
> mature, and reasonable than your reply to it.
>
I agree. I'm new to this NG, but have been lurking for a few weeks.
If Emily really is only 15, I thought her post was outstanding, and Ella's
response to it meanspirited.
Julia (owner of an IW --soon to be two IWs, and two mixed breeds from the
shelter)
Paul Green
Carol Dunster <cdun...@Ritzville.org> wrote in article
<33399a03...@news.brigadoon.com>...
> Joanne does not claim that all Chows are nasty, just that people
> should be aware of a breed tendency to require special care. Something
> that you go on to say yourself!
>
> and may be more aggressive in the USA than they are in Australia -
> blood lines differ.
I was wondering about that too. Could very well be the case.
>
> No, I saw no evidence of a tirade, except for yours! She stated her
> experience and her evidence and came up with a reasonable conclusion.
> As far as I can see, her advice was for people to be careful with
> Chows around children and that they can be stubborn and some of them
> resent training.
Very nice defense of Joanne's comments. I once had a similar run-in with
RR breeders and it was clear that passionate breeders have a hard time
being objective about their breed.
Julia
Paul Green
> Poor breeding has nothing to do with temperament and you have NO clinical
> proof of the opposite.
Haven't you watched as once temperamentally sound dogs have, through
careless breeding (often once the breed became really popular) become
nasty? Like the American Cocker Spaniel? Maybe this hasn't happened so
much in Australia?
>> Poor breeding often
> produces non-show quality animals but at the moment of their birth, they
are a
> blank slate just like human children.
What makes you think human children are a "blank slate"? They aren't and
more and more evidence is pointing away from such a theory. Children are
born with their own unique genetic make-up which interacts with the
environment. It's not an either/or thing.
> There is NO genetic proof that aggressive traits are passed from one dog
to
> another in the normal run of things. Sure, they have to be trained to be
> socially acceptable but so do your HUMAN kids! The unfortunate fact is
that
> more dogs are socially acceptable than human kids near me!
Some HUMAN kids are *much easier to "train" to be socially acceptable. A
kid whose temperament is stubborn, or quick to anger, etc. will be much
harder to "train" to behave in socially acceptable ways. In dogs as well
as people, certain genetic *tendancies *are inherited. If a breeder
doesn't know or care about what he doing, you will find that their
offspring are likelier to have temperament problems.
Julia
.
Paul Green
Kenneth Cain <ke...@txdirect.net> wrote in article >
> Jim
>
> Has anyone bothered to point out to this so obviously well-informed
> person that ALL breeds have specimens that are best kept away from
> children? There is no reason to single out the Chow as being
> unsuitable when the opposite is so much the truth.
You are right that there was no reason to single out the Chow, but I think
most reasonable people agree that there are a number of breeds, which,
because of unscrupulous breeding, have *generally become less reliable in
their temperament.
Of course, all breeds have their bad breeders and bad specimens, but some
breeds (usually ones that have become "fads" at one time or another) have
more than their share. And a breed that is naturally more protective, in
the wrong hands, (both with breeding and with owners) has more potential
for becoming aggressive, imo.
Julia
dogsnus
Ella wrote:
>
> Dang! Life imitates crappy situation comedies and yet again the
> kid knows best and tells us adults how to behave. I think I'm
> going to vomit.
>
*wonderful one*?? NOT
I happen to ENJOY Emily's posts, at least they are informative ,
introspective and not a waste of band width, like yours are.
>
> Is this just an American phenomena (children being wiser, more
> intelligent, moral, pacific and saintlier than adults)?
If indeed, her posts are indicitive of the American phenomena, then
Im damn grateful! There's hope for our country!!!
>
> Ella
> "Cute teenagers exist only on television, I
> suspect. I know there are none in my
> neighborhood".
> Robert MacKenzie, TV Guide, 1979
By this quote, I gather you know NOTHING about teenagers.
I wouldn't know about TV guide, I don't waste my time reading that
crap.
If I want to know about reality, I read the real news!
Terri
dogsnus
Jim wrote:
>
> qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman) wrote:
> >On a cold day in Hell, 22 Mar 1997 19:34:01 GMT, Jim <rob...@aug.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >>kids. My answer is no. There are other breeds that aren't kids
> >>breeds either. I have been around many, many Chows and I don't
> >>trust them because of my personal experances with them. I also
> >>consider AKC judges, professional trainers and handlers, as
> >>well as Vets to be worthy of listening to and I don't know of
> >>any that "praise" the breed, but many who are at least cautious
> >>off if not dislike the breed.
> >>
> >>Jim
> >
> >well as vets" who were mostly DOG DUMB people. I happen to like the
> >Chow.
> >
> >allowing my own children to be around a WELL-BRED, WELL-SOCIALIZED,
> >and WELL-TRAINED Chow. I think the Chow can be an absolutely
> >wonderful dog -- but no, it's not a dog for EVERYBODY. Few dogs are.
> >
> >Jim, you're simply blaming the wrong component. Blame the PEOPLE who
> >carelessly breed chows, do not socialize them properly, do not train
> >them correctly, and who put their chows into positions where they can
> >fail. Don't blame the dog, eh?
>
> D-man, I agree tht most of the problems DO in fact lie with the
> owner of the dog. One of the points you make is "Carelessly
> bred Chows". THESE are the ones that I mainy refer to as being
> untrustworthy and often difficult. The same is true of a number
> of other breeds. The Dobie and Rottie were originally wonderful
> breeds BUT, because of so much backyard breeding, it is hard to
> find a good one of either breed.
I interject here to say: It isn't hard at all to find a good
dog of the breeds mentioned, provided that the person is willing
to wait, do research and ask the necessary questions to insure
a good dog, AND be an informed owner.
Terri
Jim
dogsnus <Te...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>Jim wrote:
SNIP
>> owner of the dog. One of the points you make is "Carelessly
>> bred Chows". THESE are the ones that I mainy refer to as being
>> untrustworthy and often difficult. The same is true of a number
>> of other breeds. The Dobie and Rottie were originally wonderful
>> breeds BUT, because of so much backyard breeding, it is hard to
>> find a good one of either breed.
>
>I interject here to say: It isn't hard at all to find a good
>dog of the breeds mentioned, provided that the person is willing
>to wait, do research and ask the necessary questions to insure
>a good dog, AND be an informed owner.
>Terri
Terri,
You made my point. Unless you LOOK and do your homework
and know what to ask and what to look for, you will likely get
a badly breed dog. There are too many bad one running around
and it takes a little work to find the good ones. That makes it
hard.
Jim
Ella
On 3/24/97 2:55PM, in message <5h6t98$f...@harvee.billerica.ma.us>,
Susan Mudgett aka little gator <s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us> wrote:
> Ella (el...@saix.net) wrote:
> : Dang! Life imitates crappy situation comedies and yet again the
> : kid knows best and tells us adults how to behave. I think I'm
> : going to vomit.
>
> I'm not sure what your point is, since Emily's post was more polite,
> mature, and reasonable than your reply to it.
And when was this a newsgroup about 'polite'? Generally, I've
noticed very little of it from anybody and you must be easily fooled
if you interpret supercilious smarm as 'polite'.
You want mature? Stick it in your freakin' ear.
Ella
Carol Dunster
On 24 Mar 97 00:18:59 +1000, gr...@hartingdale.com.au (gregh) wrote:
>snip
>Case in point: Today in the local shopping mall, in the biggest and best pet
>shop there was a puppy Chow, 8.5 weeks old according to the store sales
>assistants,
>snip
>If only people SELLING pups took the time to find what the person wants.
Here is where you make the point that pet stores just plain should not
sell puppies! They are under qualified to explain the needs of the
puppies to the public and frankly, this puppy is probably from a puppy
mill and will go on to give Chows the bad name that you despise. The
problem is that badly bred Chows exist and when they do, they can tend
to be aggressive. You may not like this, but it doesn't make it go
away.
While there are nicely bred Chows and well raised ones, it still
shouldn't blind people to those that aren't and I still would
recommend care if a family was looking for a Chow and didn't know a
whole lot about dogs. I don't think this disagrees very much with what
you have said, or with what the person you keep getting upset with
said! So, calm down! You are sounding a bit over the line when you
start to rant at people that are quite normal and not cutting your
breed down particularly at all. Wait until you get one of those
(other?) crazies that thinks all Chows are killers before you get all
wound up...
Carol Dunster
On 26 Mar 1997 22:51:24 GMT, "Paul Green" <pgr...@cris.com> wrote:
>I agree. I'm new to this NG, but have been lurking for a few weeks.
>
>If Emily really is only 15, I thought her post was outstanding, and Ella's
>response to it meanspirited.
Ella was *trying* to make a joke, as I am quite sure Emily can
understand (being only 15!). I think Emily does very well and I know
she can stand up for herself, if she thinks someone is out of line!
The point is (for the humor impaired - get off the computer and get
some sleep!) that a 15 year old is making more sense than most of the
adults on this issue and Ella wanted to point out that Emily is only a
kid and making serious sense and wanted to do it in a humorous manner.
(There - is that right Ella? and clear everyone else?)
So, let's step back adults and think carefully about what we read and
what we are going to respond with before we get out of line and get in
big fights over nothing.
Let's use our energy to shut down puppy sales in pet stores, or
something else useful...