I started on the Wits' End Dog Training Method today
Daniel Fischarge
him ? We've had him for just over a week if that makes any difference.
I'm presuming it's an ok age because my Mrs has been training him with the
more traditional praise/rewards method and he's doing quite well with her.
Most times he comes, sits and offers his paw on command, well for her
anyway, he doesn't seen to want to do it for me or any of the children yet.
I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself, so this
method is going to be ok for us, right ?
So, how did it go? Well after reading through the first dozen or so pages I
decided to get on with it before it got too late in the day and do the "Hot
and Cold" exercise with him. Actually the H&C exercise is the only one that
I could even attempt with him at the moment because he doesn't yet come to
me when called.
The 'Wits End' manual seems to suggest you just put his lead on and head out
the door with him. That was never going to work because he always resists
moving where you want to go when he's on the lead. He just seems so lazy,
he'll follow when he feels like it but most of the time he doesn't want to.
So, anyway, after trying to coax him for a while I picked him and carried
him to the front door and plonked him down outside. He immediately started
to wander about and I started telling him NO when he wasn't looking at me.
At first he resisted and tried to look away and/or turn away from me. I kept
telling him NO and giving lets of eye contact and praise when he looked back
at me. After only a couple of minutes he gave in and sat there in front of
me staring up to my eyes like a good boy. I was very pleased but I called it
a day then because I didn't want to wear him out or make it too unpleasant
for him.
I have a few questions :
Am I doing it right ? It seemed to go better than I was expecting from the
strong willed little devil.
However, my Mrs is concerned that the Wits' End method is unusual and is
going to 'Break his spirit'. It doesn't seem cruel to me. Anyone have any
opinions about this ?
Also, what's the best time of day to train him ?
Will it still work if it's only me doing the Wits End method with him ? I
think the Mrs and kids prefer the easier method of treating him like a toy,
however I'm not sure that's such a good idea with a dog that grows to the
size of Great Dane.
I'd be very interested to hear everyone's opinions on this.
Thanks
--
Danny F
--
DogStar716
>
>Thanks
>
>--
>Danny F
Go enroll in a good puppy class :)
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
" My positive feelings for them doesn't mean we're above eating some we love a
lot if the situation calls for it." - Elame, on eating dogs....
Marshall Dermer
>We've got a 9 week old Great Dane dog, is that too young to start training
>him ? We've had him for just over a week if that makes any difference.
>I'm presuming it's an ok age because my Mrs has been training him with the
>more traditional praise/rewards method and he's doing quite well with her.
>Most times he comes, sits and offers his paw on command, well for her
>anyway, he doesn't seen to want to do it for me or any of the children yet.
>I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself, so this
>method is going to be ok for us, right ?
Dear Danny,
Your wife has the right idea in using praise and rewards. A more elaborate
version of "praise and reward," using a clicker, was published by the famous
behavior analyst, B. F. Skinner nearly fifty years ago in _Scientific
American_:
B.F. Skinner (1951). "How to teach animals." Scientific American 185 (12):
26-29.
and his approach is now used and has been refined by many others. For
example, you can find resources related to clicker training on the web here:
http://karenpryor.com/
http://www.superdog.com/clicker.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/clickersolutions/cshome.htm
http://www.clickandtreat.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8636/Clicker.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8636/Who.html
http://www.click-l.com/webring.html
http://www.angelfire.com/az/clickryder/home.html
http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/clicker.html
My 17 lb Havanese has learned, mostly via clicker training, to do the
following on cue: down, sit, sit-stay, sit up, sit up on haunches, look
left, look at me, look right, shake head "yes," ring a bell, ring a bell to
go outside, back up, wipe dirty feet on carpet when entering house, take a
bow, fetch, release, eliminate, wipe his back on a towel after taking a bath
(I give him the bath!e :-) ), follow a target, jump up on a cot, and heel.
So there is much that can be done with clicker training and you can
start now with your puppy.
Although there are some valid training tips in Mr. Howe's manual, one has to
read pages of useless text before encountering them. Also the manual barely
addresses how to train the behavior I noted above.
You can see a picture of my dog, Max, on my web page as well as review
my vita, the courses I teach, etc.
--Marshall
PS: You might want to get your puppy used to your putting a brush in his
mouth so that you can brush and scale his teeth when he is an adult.
Find a softbrush, put something tasty on it, and gently brush his gums
with it. Later, when he has teeth use doggy toothpaste. You may also
want to now prepare your dog for having his nails clipped as an adult by
now playing with his feet, talking softly, and occasionally offering a
treat.
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only for
myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_
Daniel Fischarge
Marshall Dermer <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9ji8hp$6v3$1...@uwm.edu...
> Dear Danny,
> Your wife has the right idea in using praise and rewards. A more
elaborate
> version of "praise and reward," using a clicker, was published by the
famous
> behavior analyst, B. F. Skinner nearly fifty years ago in _Scientific
> American_:
> My 17 lb Havanese has learned, mostly via clicker training, to do the
> following on cue: down, sit, sit-stay, sit up, sit up on haunches, look
> left, look at me, look right, shake head "yes," ring a bell, ring a bell
to
> go outside, back up, wipe dirty feet on carpet when entering house, take a
> bow, fetch, release, eliminate, wipe his back on a towel after taking a
bath
> (I give him the bath!e :-) ), follow a target, jump up on a cot, and heel.
Impressive !
> So there is much that can be done with clicker training and you can
> start now with your puppy.
> Although there are some valid training tips in Mr. Howe's manual, one has
to
> read pages of useless text before encountering them.
True, I had noticed that
> Also the manual barely
> addresses how to train the behavior I noted above.
> PS: You might want to get your puppy used to your putting a brush in his
> mouth so that you can brush and scale his teeth when he is an adult.
> Find a softbrush, put something tasty on it, and gently brush his gums
> with it. Later, when he has teeth use doggy toothpaste. You may also
> want to now prepare your dog for having his nails clipped as an adult
by
> now playing with his feet, talking softly, and occasionally offering a
> treat.
He has lots of teeth already, sharp ones too. Ill give it a try though.
Thanks very much for the advice.
--
Danny F
--
Jerry Howe
"interested in hearing." j;~}
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010723182707...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
Just follow the exercies AFTER you've studied the entire manual.
It's a gestalt. That means you've got to understand and follow all
of the techniques. You didn't do so good for your first lesson. I
suggest you read the text before you attempt the work. Ask me if you
need help with it. Jerry.
"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote in message
news:995925910.575697@dionysos...
Jerry Howe
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9ji8hp$6v3$1...@uwm.edu...
Patch
"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote in message
news:995925910.575697@dionysos...
Please assure the Mrs that treating a dog with kindness, respect, and gentle
handling/training, doesnt break its spirit. Anything you are unsure of, in
the manual, Jerry will happily go through with you, point for point.
It gives much better consistency to a dog if all members of the houshold
work together.
The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and to
him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with the
manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you go
along.
Patch
Jdoee
----------
In article <995925910.575697@dionysos>, "Daniel Fischarge"
<Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote:
snipAlso, what's the best time of day to train him ?
snip>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Danny F
> --
>
>
Hi Danny, congratulations on your new boy. What is his name? What color is
he? Remember that 9 weeks old is a baby. So while you can look at it
holistically and say that every moment is a training moment, in reality his
attention span is very short. So keep training sessions very short, and do
them however many times a day you and he are interested.
You did not mention how experienced you are with this breed. As with any
large breed, there are issues that can arise that are particular to large
breeds. It would be good for you to do a Google search and get on a few
great dane lists. Good luck with your boy. And if you post again, we want
picture-links<G>. jdoee
Marshall Dermer
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>Please assure the Mrs that treating a dog with kindness, respect, and gentle
>handling/training, doesnt break its spirit. Anything you are unsure of, in
>the manual, Jerry will happily go through with you, point for point.
>It gives much better consistency to a dog if all members of the houshold
>work together.
>The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and to
>him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with the
>manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you go
>along.
>
>Patch
Here we go again Patch.
Based on Jerry's manual how would you teach a dog to perform a chain of
behaviors, for example, bark, ring a bell, roll over, sit on its haunches,
and then wipe its feet.
Last I asked a question like this you only suggested that gentle
methods be used.
Any advances in your knowledge--based on Jerry's manual?
--Marshall
Melinda Shore
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and to
>him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with the
>manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you go
>along.
That's about the worse advice I've ever seen.
Aside from the numerous problems with Jerry and Jerry's
reliance on gizmos rather than strong fundamentals, working
from books is just a bad idea. People can't see themselves,
and when working with animals it's very often the case that
you're quite sure you're doing one thing when in fact you're
doing something quite different. For example it's very much
the case with dressage riders in the US that someone will
tell you with great authority that she's working in the
French style when in fact she's just yanking the horse's
head from side to side and ignoring the back 3/4 of the
animal. You may be sending signals to your dog that you're
not aware of, and you may be misreading your dogs cues back
to you.
The best bet, especially for beginners, is to find a good
trainer who uses positive methods, work with that person,
and take the advice of well-meaning strangers who've never
seen your dog with fistfuls of salt.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Jerry Howe
What are you panicking about?
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9jif9j$9pn$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article
<0P277.13287$Iz3.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their
dogs,
> > and to him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so
> >carry on with the manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and
> >please report back as you go along.
> That's about the worse advice I've ever seen.
Why is that?
> Aside from the numerous problems with Jerry
Problems with Jerry? Jerry doesn't teach people to jerk and choke
and shock dogs to train them. You know that. Your pals here can't
train dogs without hurting them, or they would. Your pals here hurt
dogs to train them because they're not bright enough to outwit a
puppy dog, either that, or it's because they LIKE to HURT dogs.
> and Jerry's reliance on gizmos
Gizmos? My Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will And A Rooster Did Too)
cures almost all behavior problems in just about all animals, and
they love it. It's money back satisfaction guaranteed forever.
What's your complaint with a machine that cures hyperactivity,
barking, chewing, digging, obsessive/compulsiver behaviors, fear of
thunder, gun shyness, carsickness, kat spraying and territorial
fighting, and even stopped a rooster from crowing every 45 seconds.
He now sounds off about once an hour.
> rather than strong fundamentals,
Psst! Where do you think the fundamentals for my machine came from?
The fundamentals taught in my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual bonds new dogs to new handlers and installs a reliable recall
in about an hour.
Your pals couldn't do that in a week.
> working from books is just a bad idea.
EXACTLY. That's why I did my work with real dogs in the field. I've
owned more dogs than most of you have ever seen. My methods work
consistantly excellently with everyone who cares to try them. You'll
see immediate results from each lesson, and you'll be finished
training all the basics in about two weeks on or off lead. The leash
is just a prop.
> People can't see themselves, and when working with animals it's
> very often the case that you're quite sure you're doing one thing
> when in fact you're doing something quite different.
That's well and good for you, but dog training for my students is
more cereberal. We don't need to physically control the dog to train
him.
> For example it's very much the case with dressage riders in the US
> that someone will tell you with great authority that she's working
in
> the French style when in fact she's just yanking the horse's
> head from side to side and ignoring the back 3/4 of the
> animal.
Riding a horse requires physical skill. Training a dog using my
methods does not require a great deal of skill, a five year old
child is fully capable of doing everything I do, equally as well.
Force or size or strength has nothing at all to do with appropriate
dog training methods.
> You may be sending signals to your dog that you're not aware of,
That's why all that is addressed in my FREE Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual. It's easier than any 'clicker' training method, and
does much more, much faster. Most behavior problems will be
extinguished in just a couple of days, using my methods. And there's
been plenty of good people here who've tried and verified this as
FACT.
> and you may be misreading your dogs cues back to you.
Sorry. My methods are scientific. That means if you do ABC, you'll
get the predictable results. If you do not, all you need to do is
tell me the results you got, and I'll tell you what you did wrong,
to arrive at the result you got, and HOWE to change your technique
so that you get the exact same results I get EVERY TIME. I've
trained hundreds of dogs with serious behaivor problems to be well
behaved, from sitting right here.
> The best bet, especially for beginners, is to find a good
> trainer who uses positive methods,
That's a good point. The chances of finding a competent trainer
anywhere is less than 10%. Care to recommend any of the experts
from rpdb I've identified, exposed, and discredited as dog abusing
Thugs?
> work with that person, and take the advice of well-meaning
> strangers who've never seen your dog with fistfuls of salt.
Sorry, but you're full of crap. The reason you don't want them to
follow my methods is because if my method work consistantly, that
means there's no NEED to HURT dogs to train them. That means that
all your pals with the pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars
and the ear twisting and pinching and beating dogs with sticks, are
finished in the dog training business, huh?
> Melinda Shore -
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
Read about our dog lovers methods for training a Retriever dog to
retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their
name for? (it's at the bottom)
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???
Here's the twisting and pinching part:
What is Force Fetching All About?
by Cindy Tittle Moore
Copyright 1997,1998 by the
author; all rights reserved.
INTRODUCTION
Force fetching refers to a training program whereby the dog is
taught that he has no choice about going out and picking up
something that you tell him to. Because of the many negative
connotations (and inherent imprecision) of the term "force fetch," I
generally prefer the term "conditioned retrieve."
The need to impose a conditioned retrieve unrelated to the dog's
desire to retrieve. While you can condition a dog with no retrieving
instinct whatsoever to retrieve, this training process is really all
about
teaching the dog to perform the retrieve under control. We all know
of
enthusiastic retrievers who bounce out to get the thrown object ...
and then play tag with it. Or drop it at your feet. Or race past you
on
the way back. Or, go out to pick it up and then refuse because it's
not his favorite toy. Or you want him to pick up something that is
already laying on the ground and he's not interested because the
thrill of the "flight and chase" was not there. Or perhaps you're
asking him to pick up something that he'd really rather not put in
his
mouth. What do you do about these situations? Teaching the
conditioned retrieve is one way to deal with these problems.
Remember, the "traditional" part of the conditioned retrieve, ear
pinching, is perhaps one third of the overall training program that
allows a dog to reach this point of reliable non-refusal. The
technique
we use here is avoidance. In order to successfully, with the least
amount of stress, use this technique, the means of escape must
be taught first. In teaching something via avoidance, the dog learns
that a specific behavior controls the stimulus he wishes to escape.
That behavior is taught first so that it is a comfortable and well
understood behavior by the time we bring pressure to bear.
"Force fetching" was originally developed in the 19th century by
Pointer folks, who were dealing with dogs with little to no
retrieving instinct but who wanted to expand the utility of their
dogs in the field. The process (which actually started with the toe
hitch) has been refined in successive decades. Its application to
retrievers is not because the dogs refuse to retrieve but the
handler
needs to gain control over the dog to meet the demands of a day of
hunting or the requirements of a hunt test or field trial. The dog
must
be thoroughly trained to accept directions for a blind retrieve,
which
differs significantly from a marked fall in which the dog knows that
there is a bird to retrieve. In the blind, the dog has only your
say-so
that there is in fact something to retrieve.
In my personal opinion, one of the best overviews of the conditioned
retrieve can be found in James Spencer's Training Retrievers for the
Field and Marshes. I follow his outline rather closely. Another
excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving
Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice
Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics
electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training
techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what
they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion
or
condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever
Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar
as well.)
Caveat
There are, however, many variations on this theme and it's hard to
say if any are better or worse than others. Certainly there are
individuals who misapply these methods, as there are individuals who
will abuse any technique. Much of the success in conditioning a
retrieve is very dependent on the trainer's timing and access to
experienced help. In other words, do not try to do this with your
dogs
unless you have someone experienced in this technique to help
you out in person.
Other notes
There is a groundswell of interest in "non forced" techniques for
the conditioned retrieve. I cannot say as to how well any of these
work, as I have not used any of these techniques as the sole means
of finishing a conditioned retrieve on any of my dogs. I have,
however, had a good deal of success applying some of these
techniques to puppies before teething and in beginning phases. I do
encourage you to go out and investigate these methods if you are
interested, but do note that my personal opinion is that at some
time,
corrections are required to teach the dog he has no option but to do
what he's asked. This is a whole philosphical area of dog training
that
I am not prepared to get into in this article. I do not say that my
methods are the only way, I encourage you to read and investigate
more if you wish. I am simply attempting to answer questions about a
specific methodology and hopefully to dispell some of the mythology
surrounding it.
Finally
The below described program is intended for the dog who is at least
6, preferably 9 months old. You want to be past the irritating and
distracting teething stage so that your dog is not sidetracked in
the
process.
THE HOLD
Anyhow, the first part of a conditioned retrieve is teaching him to
HOLD. There really are two separate concepts going on in retrieving
an object. One is GOING OUT AND PICKING IT UP. The other
concept is KEEPING IT IN THE MOUTH.
So, teach your dog to hold first. This is actually taught quite
conventionally. You need to start with a dog that will sit and walk
nicely alongside first. The dog does not have to know hoiw to heel,
but it helps. The dog should be easily controllable by you. The dog
should be well past the new teeth stage (I'd say past 9 months of
age
in Labradors, though many people will begin forcing at 6 months).
Know how to pry your dog's mouth open. Put your hand on the
muzzle, with your thumb on one side and the rest of your fingers on
the other, with the pinkie finger closest to the eyes. Push the
dog's
lips in forcing his mouth to open. You can train your dog to be
responsive to this: pop a treat in his mouth when you do this, and
he
will learn not to fight too much when you handle his muzzle. If you
need to, use your other hand to pull his lower jaw down a little,
then
pop in the treat. You can easily train him to open his mouth with
your
hand on the muzzle this way.
I like to use a plain obedience type wooden dumbbell. You can use a
1" by 1' dowel of wood as well, but I recommend that you use
something that is easy to scoop off the floor at some point. Most
people recommend that you not use any toys or bumpers or anything
that you will be sorry to see him hate later. Though I must point
out
that I use the obedience dumbbell and do not see resentment to the
dumbbell later. But bumpers can be awkward to handle particularly
when first picking off the floor, so I would not use them in
training.
Put a leash and collar on him and you are ready to go.
First exercise: With your dog sitting and under control, open up his
mouth, say HOLD and pop the dumbbell in, hold his mouth closed
for one second, praise him, say GIVE and pop the dumbbell out. You
are not going to let him fail at this stage. You are going to do
this
smoothly and quickly enough that he doesn't have a chance to do
much of anything, but that the praise does register. You will do
this
5-10 times then quit. (Most of your force fetching sessions will be
less
than 5 minutes long.) Ideally do this twice a day, morning and
night,
but definitely do this daily. Do it just before you feed him.
Gradually lengthen the amount of time you hold his mouth shut.
Remember, you are not giving him a chance to do anything but hold
it, because you are actively holding his mouth shut right now. If he
manages to spit it out (it can seem that you need a third or fourth
hand in this process), just say NO quietly and pop it back in.
If he spits it out a lot despite your efforts, you need to either
shorten
things up so he doesn't have a chance to do this, or recruit someone
to help you.
Here's the important part. DO NOT STINT ON PRAISE. Tell him what
a good boy (or girl) he is. Do not let up. Even if he's fighting
you,
praise him. Stop the praise the moment the dumbbell is out of his
mouth. You are not doing this right unless your significant other
and/or neighbors think you are stark raving nuts.
A word on fighting you. One of the objectives in this training
exercise is control. If he's fighting you, this is what the collar
and leash are for. If he flops down, pull him back up into a sitting
position. Keep him sitting. If he moves his head away from you, move
it back. If he tosses his head around, hold his muzzle or collar to
keep his head still. Visualize exactly how you want him positioned
throughout this exercise and then keep him to that. Don't let him
stand, don't let him flop on his back, don't let him buck his head
around, or back up, or do anything but sit in front of you.
When you have him at the point he will hold the dumbbell without
fussing as you hold his mouth shut over it, the next step is to let
go for a second. If he spits it out, say NO and put it back it. You
should be able to hold your hand under his chin and anticipate an
attempt to spit it out. Prevent it with a gentle thump under his
mouth
and a repeated HOLD. Your goal is to have him sit and hold that
dumbbell quietly. Don't be upset if he spits it out, and he will,
just replace it. You're teaching him that he does not have an option
here.
How long will this phase last? It depends on the dog. I've taken
everywhere from a week to a month at this stage. The longer the
better, patience and consistency really pay off in this exercise.
Puppies who were introduced to the concept when quite young move
through this stage very quickly.
There are two things that really help in this phase. The first is to
sit down and VISUALIZE what you want your dog to do, ideally. Get
that mental picture of your dog quietly and without fuss holding
that
dumbbell in his mouth. This is important, because it is amazing what
many people will let the dog do so long as he has the dumbbell in
his mouth. They will let him roll around, scream, toss his head
(roll
the dumbbell), because they are so focused on keeping it in his
mouth he gets away with everything else. Don't do that. Not only
does he have to keep it in his mouth, but he has to be under control
as well.
OK, next step is literally that. Once you know he will hold that
dumbbell as long as you want, sitting quietly in front of you, it's
time to have him hold it while walking with you. Just take a few
steps,
if he spits it out, stop walking, pick it up, put it back in and say
NO,
HOLD. This may take a bit more coordination to do while
you're moving around, that's OK. Just be ready for it. Eventually,
you
should be able to walk around with him, call him to you, have
him near other dogs, all while holding that dumbbell. Take a walk
around your favorite park while he's holding it. Have him sit and
wait
while you serve his food while holding it.
This is just a matter of the technique called proofing. Diane Bauman
has one of the best outlines of this process in her book Beyond
Basic Obedience. It goes something like this:
1.Teach a behavior without distractions
2.Add in simple distractions
3.When you teach the next step of the behavior, go back to no
distractions as in step 1.
So teach the hold in a quiet area without other dogs or people
around. Once he is holding the dumbbell quietly sitting in front of
you, then start doing the same thing in different areas. Move from
your kitchen to the backyard, to the front yard, to the local park.
When you ask him to walk at the same time he is holding, return to
the quiet kitchen until he is walking easily with no other
distractions,
then do it in your backyard, front yard, local park, with people,
dogs, etc. If your dog seems to have too much trouble at one stage,
back up and spend some more time in the last stage he did well in.
Each dog will adapt to new changes at different paces.
Further proofing: start using other objects: a bumper, rolled up
socks, a stick, your car keys, an aluminum can, anything that is
safe for him to hold. Also start teaching him to hang onto the item:
tie
a piece of string around the dumbbell and gently pull on it. If he
drops it, say NO and put it back in, just as you have been all
along.
You should get to the point where you can pull him along behind you
with the string. Don't do anything excessive like see if you can
pick
him off the floor and still have him hang on, that's not necessary.
This exercise also especially helps "rollers", dogs who toss their
heads around and mouth the dumbbell.
Different dogs have different limits. I've made it sound like he
will spit it out at every opportunity, every time something changes.
He may or may not. Some dogs will do fine until you ask them to
move and then finally spit it out. Some dogs may never spit it out
again after first doing it when you first put in in his mouth. Some
dogs
may go through stages where they don't spit and then try to. I've
had all kinds.
THE FORCE FETCH
Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I
repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out,
someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for
obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed
avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn
off"
a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete
control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does
require a more astute sense of timing than some other training
methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety
of
reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it's
easily done with a minimum of fuss.
Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and
leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth
as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog's
collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch
the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever
you want) Watch his mouth closely -- the moment he opens his
mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar,
and
PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session.
When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the
next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step
is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch)
necessary
to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that
getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the
ear
pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That's his second
milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times
this
session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5
minutes or so each. That's still true.
Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it.
Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It's not enough
for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to
getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of
limply
reaches over and gets it, that's not what you want. If you pinch him
but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that's not what
you want either. We're back to the visualization. What do you want
him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about
anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you
feel
him pulling out of it to get that. That's his committment. You want
to
say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the
dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him
when he's made a good committment -- this will help shape a speedy
response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an
experienced person around when you are doing this! It can
be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually
sitting there with a dog in your hands.
About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant
he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have
problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough,
or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar may be
needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are
screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by
screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique just fine -- but
not with the behavior you had in mind!
Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the collar.
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch.
You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.
Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold
the
dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull him
back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will do
him
good later.
The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them,
with
your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may refuse --
keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he really
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.
Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.
As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will get control of him (put him in a sit
with a
firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the dumbbell -- he
can
pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his mouth
any
more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.
When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the exercise.
You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or
refuses
to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place the
dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch, force
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and gets
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't
already
dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back where it
was, and pinch him to it.
There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once they
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So
transition
to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet long. With
this
you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the dumbbell,
teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog drops the
dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him try
to
pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb is
that if
he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.
Thoughts to Consider
Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something disgusting
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you
need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted some
step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go back
and fix it.
But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any of
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of groceries
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just love
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!
Jerry Howe
Just so happens that I've got all the information he needs to know
about Great Danes, too. Bye! j;~}
"Jdoee" <jd...@home.com> wrote in message
news:yl377.398627$p33.8...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Mark Shaw
"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote:
Where did you read this?
Just curious, because over the past several years I've seen nothing
at all to indicate that Howe has ever had any kind of dog whatsoever.
Thanks in advance.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"Man is a dog's idea of what God should be." -Holbrook Jackson
Jerry Howe
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9jig0s$cdl$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <0P277.13287$Iz3.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
"Patch"
> <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >Please assure the Mrs that treating a dog with kindness, respect,
> >and gentle handling/training, doesnt break its spirit. Anything
you
> >are unsure of, in the manual, Jerry will happily go through with
> >you, point for point. It gives much better consistency to a dog
if all
> >members of the houshold work together. The last thing Jerry will
> >tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and to him, breaking
a
> >dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with the
manual,
> >keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you
> > go along.
> >Patch
> Here we go again Patch.
No, here you go again, lying doc. You endorse the koehler method,
don't you. You endorse lyingfrosty dahl twisting and pinching dogs
ears, shocking and beating them with sticks, as in her stick fetch.
You approve of her and cindymooreon and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn
and janet boss jerking and choking and killing dogs they're afraid
of because they HURT them.
> Based on Jerry's manual how would you teach a dog to perform a
> chain of behaviors, for example, bark, ring a bell, roll over, sit
on its > haunches, and then wipe its feet.
When my students learn to train a dog, their dog'll do just about
anything they ask.
> Last I asked a question like this you only suggested that gentle
> methods be used.
Well lets talk about the methods you approve of, professor. Doesn't
common sense tell you that twisting and pinching and shocking and
jerking and choking a dog on a pronged spike pinch choke collar is
likely to make the dog want to bite the handler? Are you not aware
of the method the koehler books you endorse use to train dogs who
snap at their handlers? They HANG them, professor. You think cindy
and amy and lynn and janets' dogs don't snap at them when they twist
and pinch ears and beat and choke and shock their dogs? Don't you
think at all, professor?
They hurt and kill dogs, professor.
> Any advances in your knowledge--based on Jerry's manual?
We're not interested in traning trick dogs, professor. But if we
wanted to train the dog to do something useful, it's all about the
same, the method works for any commands want to train. There's
nothing much that needs to be varied. Just show the dog what you
want him to do as you present him with the appropriate sound cues,
and the dog will learn because we're teaching, not forcing and
threatening and hurting them, as your pals do.
> --Marshall
I teach the entire concept in one fell swoop, professor. Dogs can
learn much moore and much faster than you care to believe
professor, because you only understand bribery and force, you don't
know HOWE to make the dog WANT to work for you. You "punish
dogs' behaviors, and not the dog." That's why your little dog
masturbates on the couch, from anxiety about having his behaviors
punished. It's either that, or it's allelomimetic behavior
(imitation, profesor).
Contrawise, the Wits' End Dog Training Method uses scientific and
psychological non force, non confrontational, conditioning
techniques
which will train the dog to come in about one hour reliably, as a
conditioned reflex.
> --Marshall
> I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge
newbies
> to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars
from
> whom I have learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy),
> Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser,
> Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida,
>MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin Nuttall, Denna
> Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
> Webb, and Terri Willis.
> Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
> Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
> Milwaukee, WI 53201
> der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
> "If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only
for
> myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_
That's EZ, doc. The Talmud would agree that you're a schmuck.
Here's why:
Here's MORE STUPIDITY from our lying doc ''professor'' dermer:
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:8jjds0$tre$1...@uwm.edu...
> Yep! Of course, the truth of the advice is not
> whether I or others agree, but whether the advice
> works! :-)
You mean like the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com ?
Interesting HOWE you deleted Marilyn from your list
of posters you've learned from. She's about the best
trainer I've spoken to. She trains probably one thousand
dogs a year. The way she teaches the come command is
impeccable.
Wise move killfiling her information...
Yes, you've led some of the arguments defending
force, punishment, hurting dogs, and deriding non
force methods. You criticize my methods without
reading any further than my condemnation of the
universities for the sorry state of the art of
behaviorism as it exists today in dog training.
You've recently endorsed the koehler method. In
order to endorse the koehler method, you must be
prepared to hang dogs who object to the
incrementally increasing force, violence, and
intimidation. Koehler justifies hurting dogs for
willfully disobeying commands as a direct affront to
the trainers AUTHORITY.
Isn't aggression a predictable response to jerking and
choking and shocking and twisting and pinching
ears, toes, and testicles, and beating dogs with sticks
to MOTIVATE THEM?
Don'cha thaink?
You are probably into teaching because it gives you a sense
of CONTROL. Too bad your school is not the REAL
WORLD, where adults compete against adults. YOU rule
children, and get your kicks being in charge.
Here, you're just another dog abuser. And a punk.
You couldn't even maintain the title Master Of Deception,
without going over the edge, and LYING.
> Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil
> and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom
> I have learned much.
This is going to hurt a little bit, doc. Brace yourself.
It'll be all over in about two minutes. Just relax.
> They include: Amy Dahl,
Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods,
weren't we...
She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to
motivate dogs to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears,
not twists them. NO mention of twisting of toes or
testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS,
retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve...
NICE stuff, huh?
> Diane Blackman,
Yes, diane... She's as confused and deceitful as they
come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars
so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds,
and so that people won't SEE the prongs and think
the less of her... She twists words better than you
can, BECAUSE SHE HASN'T GOT BAGGED FOR
LYING, LIKE YOU DID.
She's got a dog who's been a chronic puller for five
years, and she day boards her dogs because she can't
trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of
lousy advice, but diane won't edit the lousy ones that
teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn't
know enough about training to discern good from
bad information... Whaddaya thaink of that?
> Janet Boss,
Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly.
She's as incompetent a creature as G-D could
possibly create. I'll be throwing THAT in HIS face
when I get there... She has no business telling people
to kill their dogs because their only option is
to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the
rest of his life. See the thread ''interested in hearing''
and you'll see for yourself HOWE you bums
mishandle and kill dogs because you don't have any
IDEAS and can't outwit a puppydog...
> Susan Fraser,
susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks
and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she
doesn't hurt them.
> Avrama Gingold,
Our Professora... She got her damned teeth knocked
down her throat when her dog finally figured out
HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an
accident. That's called allelomimetic behavior.
avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel
or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to
himself. Dogs are smart.
Don't take my word for it, that's in the Wits' End Dog
Training Method manual.
> Lynn Kosmakos,
Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and
hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She
justifies force because there are so many dogs to
HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the
shelter she kills dogs at.
> Bob Maida,
What advice? "Don't let him do that?" Killfiles is all
he writes about. He can't talk dog training because
he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his
foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he's
craping toenails... He's no dog trainer.
He said he recommends cindymoron's Website to his
''students'' and they tell him HOWE much they've
benefited from it... cindymron's site has instructions
for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to
choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the
chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears
and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and
twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog's
heads under water you've filled into a hole he's dug
to break dogs of digging.
I guess boob's student's only learned the jerking and
choking from him...
Your pal boob had been begging his ''teacher'' cap'n
faggotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He
sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter
saying she'd sue me if I told the truth here...
Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a
motorcycle gang paying me a little visit... Do you ride,
lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some
dead bikers machines.
> Cindy Tittle Moore,
A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and
hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you
HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs.
Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron?
Here's the deal... We get her to force fetch train three
dogs in front of a childs playground, and I'll train
three protection dogs in the same site, and we'll see
who the children are disturbed by, and who the
parents are going to call the cops on... And then I'll
show up as expert witness for the prosecution, and
we'll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a
criminal judge and jury... HOWE'S that for a FAIR
TEST???
> Denna Pace,
Says she sees a lot of value in koehler... She's got PLENTY
of problems with her own dogs running away and being
disobedient.
> John Richardson,
He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle.
He's as abusive and immature as they come. He's a
clone of dogman. The dogs he can't hurt into being
friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike
yourself, he's too stupid to be evil. He's just doing
what koehler taught him.
> Ludwig Smith,
Another koehler trainer. He's too cowardly to come
out and say what he believes. He throws around lots
of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help
in koehler's books. He's got a link to cindymoron's
page on his sig file...
> and Terri Willis.
The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because
she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS
TO HURT DOGS. Psychoclown wrote: "Nope. That "beating
dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro manure."
NEXT POST, we'll talk about YOU, lyindoc dermer.
Let's figure out why your dog masturbates on the couch pillows.
Could it be just a result of punishing his behaviors, or is
it REALLY allelomimetic behavior? Bye!
> Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University
of
> Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
> http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
You can get all the information you need to properly handle
and train your dog using non force, non confrontational,
scientific and psychological behavior modification and
conditioning techniques, from the Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com
BEWARE the forgeries to confuse you, and the warnings
offered to you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding
killfiling my posts and the Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual. These people are frantic at the thought of not
having anymore EXCUSE for being able to jerk, choke,
and hurt dogs on pronged, choke, and electronic shock collars.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you
to killfile my advice...and tell you to punish, confine, and
confront your dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs
are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and
their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING
THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are, AND WANT
YOU TO BE, so they don't look out of sorts.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you
to killfile my advice...and tell you to punish, confine, and
confront your dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs
are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and
their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING
THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are, AND WANT
YOU TO BE, so they don't look out of sorts.
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions,
and judge things by reason's way, not by popular say."
-Montaigne-
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
-Salvor Hardin-
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them."
-H.S. Truman-
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE
GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY
ATROCITY."
- G.B. Shaw -
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
D.Currie
>
> My 17 lb Havanese has learned, mostly via clicker training, to do the
> following on cue: down, sit, sit-stay, sit up, sit up on haunches, look
> left, look at me, look right, shake head "yes," ring a bell, ring a bell
to
> go outside, back up, wipe dirty feet on carpet when entering house, take a
> bow, fetch, release, eliminate, wipe his back on a towel after taking a
bath
> (I give him the bath!e :-) ), follow a target, jump up on a cot, and heel.
Marshall:
To teach the look left and right and the nod its head, did you use a lure of
some sort to get the dog to move its head in that direction, or did you just
capture the action?
Our current list of silly tricks is sit, down, stand, stay (all positions)
squirrel (sit up), dizzy (spin in a circle), back up, sneak (crawl), gimme
paw, high five, high ten, wave, roll over left, roll over right, close the
door, ring bell to go out, front (sit in front of me from a heel position)
around (from front, circle behind me and sit at left), touch (my hand with
her nose), come (of course), follow (my hand movement), find your squeeky,
get the ball, jump... Among other things, including some casual commands
like stop (for instance, when she's backing up) that I didn't really teach,
but she just picked up on. We're working on a couple other things, but I was
thinking I'd like to tackle the "yes" and "no" pretty soon. It's different
from what we've done already, so I'm just curious how you taught that one.
donna
"It's even worse than that. Sometimes I think I'm living in a perpendicular
universe."
Jerry Howe
"Candace" <can...@wirebird.com> wrote in message
news:acsij9...@lists.wirebird.com...
> In <z%577.5097$UB6.4...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, Jerry
said:
>
> >from rpdb I've identified, exposed, and discredited as dog
abusing
>
"expose"
> or "discredit" other posters. If this were true, it would seem in
his best
> interests to be very certain of his facts. Instead, Jerry has
adopted the
> stance that nearly everyone in the newsgroup is a "thug" he needs
to discredit.
> If this requires inventing offenses and then calling them a
"proven liar" when
> they deny his fictitious claims, he does so. It has become
apparent that his
> real purpose is to generate attention for himself, either as a
bizarre marketing
> tactic, or simply as the result of, to be charitable, a mental
quirk.
>
> In any event, responding to his bait is merely rewarding the
behavior. Leave the
> corrections to services such as mine instead of giving him human
interaction.
>
> >Copyright 1997,1998 by the
>
> Jerry frequently reminds rpdb readers that he holds the copyright
to his
> web pages. However, he often posts private email, web pages,
books, or
> other copyrighted material with the claim that his purposes
justify the
> violation. However, Jerry posts through Usenetserver, whose Terms
and
> Conditions can be found at
<URL:http://www.usenetserver.com/termscond.html>.
> In part, this page says: " You represent and warrant that any
content
> you distribute or receive through your Account (a) shall not
infringe on
> any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or
other
> proprietary rights or rights of publicity or privacy...".
>
> >they love it. It's money back satisfaction guaranteed forever.
>
behaviors. How
> can he make this "lifetime money back" claim? A clue may be had
in Jerry's
> definition of "bad behaviors." For instance: "If my machine isn't
breaking
> the digging, it's safe to presume the digging is just play..." was
offered as
> an explanation in
<nPl27.871...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>.
>
> >That's well and good for you, but dog training for my students is
>
indicate that
> his only experience was as a teenager working for his parents, who
were the
> actual trainers.
>
> >means there's no NEED to HURT dogs to train them. That means that
>
any
> method other than the one he promotes, including training a dog
with
> food rewards. He even uses this accusation when the person to
whom
> he is speaking has never specified a training method.
>
> >The fundamentals taught in my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
>
Nowell
> (a recidivist spammer) as part of a 'get-rich-quick' web site
promotion
> package. Jerry's domain, doggydoright.com, is actually owned by
Nowell,
> as a whois query will indicate. Nowell offers a number of
'reports' that
> you can buy rights to distribute as part of a package to draw
surfers to
> your sales web site. While some of the practices described in the
manual
> are accepted practice, interested readers are probably better off
going to
> the original material that his manual was cobbled together from.
>
> >That's a good point. The chances of finding a competent trainer
>
has not
> been able to prove any of his claims about his own competence - or
even
> if he has ever really been involved in professional dog training.
He is
> unknown to other Orlando-area trainers, and has refused to meet
with any
> professional trainers except under absurd circumstances (see his
High Stakes
> Challenge for an example).
>
> >from rpdb I've identified, exposed, and discredited as dog
abusing
>
Clicker
> training, food rewarding, and other "pure positive" methods are
all
> subject to Jerry's disapproval. This appears to have more to do
with
> attention-getting behavior on his part than on any genuine concern
for
> animals - he has stated that he doesn't even like dogs.
>
> >Problems with Jerry? Jerry doesn't teach people to jerk and choke
>
choke their
> dogs. He'll claim this regardless of the collar type the owner
uses, or even
> if the dog isn't on leash. It is apparently a tactic to put
owners on the
> defensive, trolling for a response.
>
>
> --
> Candace, the virtual border collie:
http://www.wirebird.com/bordercollie/
> If Jerry can come up with any of the proof he claims to have, I
will
> put it on my web page and remove those rebuttals from my
repertoire.
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And Would Avoid A Simple Swat On
The Rump With A Riding Crop" lyingfrosty dahl.
Alison
Your pup is still a baby so don't expect to much from him. They don't
have much concentration at that age. Don't tell your puppy off or confuse
him.
He should have his vaccinations before he is allowed outside but you can
take him to a puppy socialisation class where he can play and get used to
other dogs.
Alison
Daniel Fischarge <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote in message
news:995925910.575697@dionysos...
Leah
wrote:
>keep in regular contact with Jerry
Uh... no. Howe is not a dog trainer, he just plays one on usenet.
You're best off ignoring him completely.
Learn How to Can Spam
http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml
http://www.spamfree.org/
WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH - Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/
Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)
Marshall Dermer
Hi Donna,
Thanks for telling us of all the tricks you've trained your pooch to do.
1. I shaped Max to "look right" and later "to look left." I started training
when he was say three months old. I would park myself in front of him
with my trusty clicker and defrosted peas. I captured his looking at me.
As for "looking left," I would wait for him to engage in any
approximation to looking left and then click and treat. Gradually, I
would only click and treat when he turned his head further and further to
the left. When he was reliably turning his head left, I then introduced
the cue "left" and captured "looking left."
Three years later, I wonder if I would have been better off using a
target to train this behavior. Although I do research in and teach
behavior analysis, I don't know the most efficient ways to train canine
behavior.
2. As for teaching "yes," I first tried delayed prompting.
In delayed prompting a neutral stimulus, (a), comes just before the
prompt, (b), that already controls behavior. The stimuli are repeated in
sequence (a) (b) with reinforcement after the behavior produced by (b).
Eventually (a) is supposed to produce the behavior that (b) procduces.
I have used this procedure to teach Max several tricks. For example, I
first taught Max (b) to hit a bell on the command "bell" which had been
reinforced with food. Then I would ask (a) "Max, do you want to go for a
walk? and I would say (b) "bell" and take him out rather than feed him
after he hit the bell. Eventually (a) evoked his striking the bell!! :-)
To train Max to shake his head "yes," I first tried this.
I would ask (a) "Max do you like ______? Yes." and then take (b) a treat
and move it up and down in front of Max's head (prompting) so Max tracked
it and so moved his head as if he was nodding "yes." I would then click
or say good boy and give him the treat. I did this for hours over a
period of days and the behavior of moving his head never transfered from
(b) to (a).
So, I modified the procedure as any good applied behavior analyst
would do.
I would "pop the question" (a) and then (b1) position the treat near the
ground so Max would look down. Then I would say (b2) "look at me" and
when he looked up at me I would click or say good boy and give him the
treat. Gradually I was able to fade away (b1) and (b2) so that now (a),
the question, alone evokes shaking his head "yes."
Today, I would use a target to train this behavior! :-)
I hope my answer to your question is clear.
Best wishes for success!
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only for
myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_
>"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu > wrote in message
Jerry Howe
got the TASTE OF BLOOD... j;~}
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20010724081447...@ng-fu1.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9jjkkp$obncj$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
> Hi Daniel.
> Your pup is still a baby so don't expect to much from him.
Is that so, Alison? Would you hold to that idea if you knew a three
week old puppy has all the brain capacity he needs to learn anything
you're able to teach him?
> They don't have much concentration at that age.
Nor at any age, till we develop their capacity to pay attention.
Just a matter of practice, that's all
> Don't tell your puppy off or confuse him.
That won't happen using my non force, non confrontational methods.
> He should have his vaccinations before he is allowed outside but
> you can take him to a puppy socialisation class
So he'll learn what?
> where he can play and get used to other dogs.
Oh. janet boss has just such a class, Alison.
> Alison
Jerry Howe
> In article <QZ777.1586$cS.4...@news.uswest.net> "D.Currie"
<dmbc...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> Hi Donna,
>
> Thanks for telling us of all the tricks you've trained your pooch
to do.
Message 11 in thread
From: D. Childe (demonc...@my-deja.com)
Subject: Re: Can Anyone FAULT The Wits' End Dog Training Method?
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2000-12-31 12:26:53 PST
We've been through this before, Professor. There is no valid or
direct
criticism of Jerry's training methods on the web page you refer to.
At
least there wasn't a year ago. In fact, the only person here who has
ever made any direct and explained criticism of jerry's methods is
me.
None of those points (use of the "NO!" to interrupt behaviors, use
of
shake cans to scare dogs, training dogs in a low drive rather than a
high drive) are covered on that web page. They are not covered
because
the people who designed and contributed to that page are either
employing the same thing themselves or are doing far worse.
You've been a gentleman right and true straight down the line here,
so
I wonder why you choose to endorse a group of abusive idiots in your
sig file. Sure you've included a few good people in there, but the
rest
are abusive ill-mannered idiots, and you know it.
If I was not certain that I made your killfile parade, I'd ask you
to
please tell me what you have learned (you say it is much) from each
one
of these posters. I would then offer examples of each of them being
less than civil and far from rational, 3 or 4 exempted.
Special Note to Jerry: I've read some of your recent posts and you
now
resemble the idiots you harass more than is becoming to you. You
also
need to lay off the newbie dog owners. They're just following the
instructions of the "experts" and are not to be faulted for this
anymore than somebody who is misled by other professionals or
"experts".
remember Nietzsche's warning, jerry
"He that fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does
not become a monster."
In article <92nr4m$oeh$1...@uwm.edu>,
der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) wrote:
> In article <Bey36.432$zO.49...@news2.news.adelphia.net> "James
Z" <jam...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >Isn't there an entire web page devoted to complaints about your
crap? How
> >can you possibly say there is no criticism? How about posting
that page URL
> >for everyone to see...
>
> By popular request:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~tdwillis/Harlan/concerns.htm
>
> Congratulations to Terri Willis for hosting and designing the
page!
Jerry Howe
> In article <QZ777.1586$cS.4...@news.uswest.net> "D.Currie"
<dmbc...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> Hi Donna,
>
> Thanks for telling us of all the tricks you've trained your pooch
to do.
Hello Professor,
Here's what one of my students Paul B, writes:
The sound distraction and praise method he uses is
VERY effective, I use those techniques on my dogs and
the results are great.
From teaching a dog to recall to preventing unwanted
behaviours ( shit eating, eating the cats food, growling
when taking a bone from a dog, jumping up, even
escaping from the property, any behaviour). To say
sound distraction and praise methods don't work is
pure ignorance.
I can understand you not liking Jerry and being pissed
off with the posts he submits but please keep things in
context and don't slam a technique just because you
can't stand the person suggesting using it.
Paul.
--
See the animals, us and our home at........
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paul_bousie/index.html
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:92nr4m$oeh$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <Bey36.432$zO.49...@news2.news.adelphia.net> "James
Z" <jam...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > Isn't there an entire web page devoted to
> > complaints about your crap? How
> > can you possibly say there is no criticism? How
> > about posting that page URL
> > for everyone to see...
> By popular request:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdwillis/Harlan/concerns.htm
> Congratulations to Terri Willis for hosting and
> designing the page!
> --Marshall
Patch
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and
to
> >him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with
the
> >manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you
go
> >along.
>
> That's about the worse advice I've ever seen.
I disagree.
>
> Aside from the numerous problems with Jerry and Jerry's
> reliance on gizmos rather than strong fundamentals, working
> from books is just a bad idea.
He wouldnt be working just from the book, but in constant contact with
Jerry, who will explain any points the OP is unsure of. How many others who
make written text available are prepared to answer every point individually,
to those reading their books ?
Should Roger Mugfords books be taken off sale because he is not available to
answer questions that may arise from it ?
People can't see themselves,
> and when working with animals it's very often the case that
> you're quite sure you're doing one thing when in fact you're
> doing something quite different.
Which is why videoing is a good idea, when possible.
For example it's very much
> the case with dressage riders in the US that someone will
> tell you with great authority that she's working in the
> French style when in fact she's just yanking the horse's
> head from side to side and ignoring the back 3/4 of the
> animal.
Dont people in the US learn the basics of riding first, [ an ideal time to
learn not to yank a horses head about........ ], *before* going on to
Dressage ?
You may be sending signals to your dog that you're
> not aware of, and you may be misreading your dogs cues back
> to you.
Which happens all too often. At least the OP can get straight onto Jerry and
say "I`ve tried this bit, and this is whats happening. This is what I`m
doing, please tell me where I am going wrong".
>
> The best bet, especially for beginners, is to find a good
> trainer who uses positive methods, work with that person,
> and take the advice of well-meaning strangers who've never
> seen your dog with fistfuls of salt.
None of here have seen the dogs of posters asking questions, with a few
exceptions maybe. So perhaps people may as well not bother ever asking
questions here at all ?
Patch
Patch
Marshall,
The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
manual itself, dont you think ?
Then, feel free to discuss it of course, on any points you feel might not
help you do what you want.
Patch
Marshall Dermer
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>Marshall,
>
>The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
>manual itself, dont you think ?
Dear Patch,
Aren't you the one recommending the manual? If so, did you read it?
And if you read it, why can't you reference the section that
addresses the issues I have raised?
--Marshall
Theresa Willis
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> "Patch"
><d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>>Marshall,
>>
>>The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
>>manual itself, dont you think ?
Of course, since it's fairly obvious to most of the rest of us that
Marshall doesn't think the answer is in the manual, most of the rest
of us understand why he isn't likely to go looking for something that
he doesn't believe exist.
>Dear Patch,
>
>Aren't you the one recommending the manual? If so, did you read it?
>And if you read it, why can't you reference the section that
>addresses the issues I have raised?
>
Oh, that's an easy one: The manual is no use at all in answering
questions like that.
--Terri & Harlan (ask us a hard one!)
Patch
Marshall,
I`m *asking* you to please read it, then I`ll *happily* discuss it with you.
Its pointless having a discussion with you about it, if you haven't read it
for yourself.
Patch
Rocky
news:5Mp77.18969$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com:
> Its pointless having a discussion with you about it, if you
> haven't read it for yourself.
I must have missed the post where Marshall said that he hadn't
read it.
My opinion is that he's read it thoroughly and is asking your
interpretation of its methods.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Mark Shaw
ms...@bangnetcom.com (Mark Shaw) wrote:
>In article <995925910.575697@dionysos>,
>"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote:
>>I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself, so this
>
>Where did you read this?
>
>Just curious, because over the past several years I've seen nothing
>at all to indicate that Howe has ever had any kind of dog whatsoever.
Mr. Fischarge, I really would like an answer to this question, for
the reason noted. I don't mean to be confrontational, but it really
is a simple question and I don't think it would put you out very much
to respond.
If you don't recall or don't wish to tell us, please just say so.
Again: thanks in advance.
[posted and emailed]
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"No one appreciates the very special genius
of your conversation as the dog does." -Christopher Morley
Mark Shaw
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:9jig0s$cdl$1...@uwm.edu...
>> Here we go again Patch.
>>
>> Based on Jerry's manual how would you teach a dog to perform a chain of
>> behaviors, for example, bark, ring a bell, roll over, sit on its haunches,
>> and then wipe its feet.
>>
>> Last I asked a question like this you only suggested that gentle
>> methods be used.
>
>The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
>manual itself, dont you think ?
>Then, feel free to discuss it of course, on any points you feel might not
>help you do what you want.
You have absolutely no idea how to proceed on such a problem, do
you?
Nothing to be ashamed of -- I don't either. But then again I'm not
claiming otherwise.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"The average dog is a nicer person
than the average person." -Andrew A. Rooney
Marshall Dermer
<tdwi...@earthlink.net> writes:
>Oh, that's an easy one: The manual is no use at all in answering
>questions like that.
>
>--Terri & Harlan (ask us a hard one!)
Now how is Patch EVER going to learn if you and Harlan don't even raise your
hand and wait to be called on--but just blurt out the answer?! :-)
--Marshall
Karen J. Cravens
<Qom77.18049$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
> He wouldnt be working just from the book, but in constant contact with
> Jerry, who will explain any points the OP is unsure of.
Have you ever seen Jerry explain points anyone is unsure of? I'm asking
this in all seriousness. I've only ever seen him tell people "you must
have skipped a step, go do it again," or sometimes "you're not bright
enough to follow directions" or things even more abusive. I've never
actually seen him explain anything.
--
Karen J. Cravens
2tails
> We've got a 9 week old Great Dane dog, is that too young to start training
> him ? We've had him for just over a week if that makes any difference.
> I'm presuming it's an ok age because my Mrs has been training him with the
> more traditional praise/rewards method and he's doing quite well with her.
> Most times he comes, sits and offers his paw on command, well for her
> anyway, he doesn't seen to want to do it for me or any of the children yet.
> I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself, so this
Hi Danny,
I'm using the WEDT manual with my two dogs, a male Dalmatian and a female BC/Lab
mix... the training sessions are going well, and I've been satisfied with their
progress.
If your wife is skeptical, you can proceed alone, but it's better if the family
can work together on it, particularly the Family Pack Leadership Exercise.
I've been using the manual, and Jerry is always very helpful with questions,
etc. What you are doing certainly will not break your dog's spirit. My dogs
are affectionate, good natured, and responsive to me. I trust the same will
happen with you and your dog.
Regards,
Lisa
2tails
> In article <0P277.13287$Iz3.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >The last thing Jerry will tolerate, is people mishandling their dogs, and to
> >him, breaking a dogs spirit is as cruel as beating it, so carry on with the
> >manual, keep in regular contact with Jerry, and please report back as you go
> >along.
>
> That's about the worse advice I've ever seen.
>
Respectfully, I disagree. It's exactly what the OP should be doing if he is
using the WEDT manual. I've been doing just that and things are going well with
my dogs.
regards,
Lisa
<remainder of post snipped>
Humanhere2
>Have you ever seen Jerry explain points anyone is unsure of?
He has to me. I was curious about some things in his manual and he explained
it to me. I'm not sure if I posted the questions here or email. I think
perhaps email...
I couldn't take his rambling on rpdb anymore, so now he is killfiled...but he
did explain and respond to the questions I posed of his manual.
Take care,
Maggie
Marshall Dermer
>Marshall,
>
>The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
>manual itself, dont you think ?
>Then, feel free to discuss it of course, on any points you feel might not
>help you do what you want.
>
>Patch
Dear Patch,
Patch I can't stomach reading the entire manual because it is so poorly
written. And reading the updated manual's style makes me sick too!
Can you help me with what I have read?
For example, "The Wits' End Dog Training Method is the fastest, gentlest,
mosteffective, comprehensive behavior modification/obedience and protection
training technique available anywhere... And now, it's FREE!!! It's
copyright 1998 information, so be advised: use it wisely, and use it
often. Use, copy, and distribute it in it its entirety or none at all."
Has Jerry really compared his manual with all available manuals? What
evidence does he present about this?
There are many books on basic and applied behavior analysis that are more
comphrehensive than Jerry's manual, for example:
Behavior Modification--What It Is and How to Do It by Garry Martin, Joseph
Pear
Behavior Modification in Applied Settings by Alan E. Kazdin
Applied Behavior Analysis by John O. Cooper, et al
Applied Behavior Analysis for Teachers by Paul Alberto, Anne C. Troutman
Behavior Analysis for Lasting Change by Beth Sulzer-Azaroff, G. Roy Mayer
Learning by A. Charles Catania
Learning and Behavior by James E. Mazur
Learning and Behavior by Paul Chance
Do you really believe Jerry read all these books in conducting his review?
Or consider this from the manual: "Not everyone needs formal obedience
training."
Well, I'm sure I don't need obedience training, but do you think that
it might help Jerry?
Or consider this from the manual: "The first thing you may notice is the
lack of confusing psychobabble."
What does Jerry mean by "psychobabble"?
Or how about this: "Food bribes, or treats associated with training,
although generally endorsed by traditional trainers, is strictly against
everything we are trying to impart through our unconventional approach."
Don't you think that the plural subject "bribes" takes a plural verb or
is grammar too conventional for Jerry?
Or this: "Any time your dog is more concerned with his gut than your desires,
you could be the next course on the menu. We're training companion animals,
not pigs."
No comment. The above already is too funny! :-)
Or how about this: "All we need to do is to establish a smooth flow of
information and allow thoughts to flow fluidly, maintaining an open dialogue
without becoming focused on the desired command, or getting stuck in a
confrontation."
Why can't Jerry follow his own advice on rpdb?
And what does this mean: "We have a methodology based on defaults"?
Thanks for helping me figure out the manual.
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"From the time of early robust humans [about 100,000 years ago] to the
present, the human brain has stayed the same size." Ernst Mayr, _This is
Biology_, p. 240. Consequently, what separates us from those "early robust
humans" is culture!
Lynn K.
s what one of my students Paul B, writes:
>
> The sound distraction and praise method he uses is
> VERY effective, I use those techniques on my dogs and
> the results are great.
No one has ever disputed that. Interruption and redirection,
with reward is a technique used by every single trainer in
the world. In fact, I'd guess by 90% of all dog owners, with
or without training. It works. And it's hardly your personal
technique. That's not the source of complaint.
Lynn K.
D.Currie
> Thanks for telling us of all the tricks you've trained your pooch to do.
She's easy to train. Makes me look good :) The other one is still trying to
grasp the concept of "roll over."
>
> 1. I shaped Max to "look right" and later "to look left."
<snip>
> Today, I would use a target to train this behavior! :-)
>
> I hope my answer to your question is clear.
>
I was thinking that targeting was the right answer. My other thought was
sound cues to get her to look, but then I'd have her looking at distractions
instead of focusing on me. Tonight we learned targeting the end of a stick
instead of targeting my hand. It seems like the stick would be better for
getting the head movement.
question: do I need to give a verbal cue for touching the stick, since I'm
going to be using it to teach other tricks/cues? Or is it enough that she
she sees the stick and touches the end? She responds better to hand
movements than verbal anyway, so pointing/touching/holding the stick would
be sufficient for her to respond.
This dog learns amazingly fast. If she doesn't get the glimmer of an idea
what I want in the first session, I figure I'm not "explaining" it right. It
takes longer to learn the cue and perfect whatever it is I'm after, but she
does pick things up fast.
To teach her to close the door, I had her touch my hand on the door, removed
my hand, added the cue. This was about ten minutes work. Then we worked on
using more force to close the door with one touch. Now we're just working on
her going to the door to close it no matter where I am when I give the
command.
Some things she seems to figure out almost on her own. Like the rollover in
either direction. She tended to roll the same way most of the time, the same
way I was doing the hand signal. I tried doing the signal in the other
direction, and she rolled the other way, without me teaching her.
> Best wishes for success!
>
> --Marshall
Thanks. We're doing this more for fun than anything else. I've never been
this interested in teaching tricks, but this dog makes it fun and she seems
so darned proud of herself when she gets something right.
donna
D.Currie
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:5Mp77.18969$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Okay, try me. I've read it.
In a post about a year ago, I mentioned a class I had taken where one
particular dog didn't want to lie down, and that was next on the agenda.
Jerry jumped in and said that if he was in the class he would have had the
dog down in just a few minutes. So I asked him.
How would you cause the dog to lie down? He said he wouldn't touch the dog
or lure the dog with food or other goodies. So, how?
After much back and forth, where I asked for a step-by-step of how he would
get the dog into a down position (whereupon he would be praised, etc), and
Jerry telling me about conditioning my dog (which was not the problem), and
the exercises in the manual, when his original claim was that he could have
done it *in the class*.
He very clearly stated what he would not do, and I asked if he would simply
wait for the dog to lie down. I never got a clear answer on that, although
by the time he ruled out what he wouldn't do, there wasn't much left. He
also threw in alleomimetic behavior, and I asked if the meant he would lie
down wait for the dog to mimic that behavior, and he said maybe. He never
gave a clear answer, so how about one from you?
So based on the manual (amd feel free to reference the sections) let us know
how you would get a dog to do even a part of what Marshall asked. Try the
rolling over.
And the correct answer is not, "I don't want to teach my dog to roll over."
We're talking a hypothetical dog that the hypothetical owner who wants the
dog to roll over, for whatever reason.
donna
Lynn K.
> If your wife is skeptical, you can proceed alone, but it's better if the family
> can work together on it, particularly the Family Pack Leadership Exercise.
Lisa, I'm glad things are going well. In addition to using Jerry's manual
and asking him for help when needed, you might also want to review some
of the descriptions of those pretty standard exercises by other trainers/
authors. For example, the FPLE you mention is covered far more completely
by David Kline (David the Dogman), who calls it "the Walking Thing". And
Will Judy did a more comprehensive version of Hot & Cold 40 years ago.
I think you'll find better information, and know that you'll find it easier
to read :-)
Lynn K.
Marilyn
>
>"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
><Qom77.18049$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
>
>> He wouldnt be working just from the book, but in constant contact with
>> Jerry, who will explain any points the OP is unsure of.
>
>Have you ever seen Jerry explain points anyone is unsure of? I'm asking
>this in all seriousness.
Yes Karen,
By phone, email, msn and here to those who ask seriously.
> I've only ever seen him tell people "you must
>have skipped a step, go do it again," or sometimes "you're not bright
>enough to follow directions" or things even more abusive. I've never
>actually seen him explain anything.
With respect..... he has, many times
best regards,
Marilyn
>
>--
>Karen J. Cravens
>
>
HarCo Industries
Hee. I used to get in trouble for that back in school, too.
But I do believe your question is based on a false premise: I do not
expect Patch ever to learn, regardless of the circumstances.
I know, I know, now I have to write "a will not blurt out the answer"
on the blackboard a hundred million times.
In binary.
--Terri & Harlan
HarCo Industries
> In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> "Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
> >news:9jig0s$cdl$1...@uwm.edu...
>
> >> Here we go again Patch.
> >>
> >> Based on Jerry's manual how would you teach a dog to perform a chain of
> >> behaviors, for example, bark, ring a bell, roll over, sit on its haunches,
> >> and then wipe its feet.
> >>
> >> Last I asked a question like this you only suggested that gentle
> >> methods be used.
> >
> >The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
> >manual itself, dont you think ?
> >Then, feel free to discuss it of course, on any points you feel might not
> >help you do what you want.
>
> You have absolutely no idea how to proceed on such a problem, do
> you?
>
> Nothing to be ashamed of -- I don't either. But then again I'm not
> claiming otherwise.
Hey, Mark, do you suppose that Patch and the Marilyn went to the same
dancing school? Their moves are very similar.
--Terri & Harlan (one-two-three cha-cha-cha)
Marshall Dermer
>
>"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu > wrote in message
>news:9jk0e1$cpk$1...@uwm.edu...
>
> > Thanks for telling us of all the tricks you've trained your pooch to do.
>
>She's easy to train. Makes me look good :) The other one is still trying to
>grasp the concept of "roll over."
> >
> > 1. I shaped Max to "look right" and later "to look left."
><snip >
> > Today, I would use a target to train this behavior! :-)
> >
> > I hope my answer to your question is clear.
> >
>I was thinking that targeting was the right answer. My other thought was
>sound cues to get her to look, but then I'd have her looking at distractions
>instead of focusing on me. Tonight we learned targeting the end of a stick
>instead of targeting my hand. It seems like the stick would be better for
>getting the head movement.
>
>question: do I need to give a verbal cue for touching the stick, since I'm
>going to be using it to teach other tricks/cues? Or is it enough that she
>she sees the stick and touches the end? She responds better to hand
>movements than verbal anyway, so pointing/touching/holding the stick would
>be sufficient for her to respond.
The answers to these questions are largely empiricial matters i.e., "whatever
works." But if you don't give your dog some kind of cue to follow the stick
then, in principle, she will be disposed to do it whenever the stick and
objects that look like the stick are brought out and positioned in a
certain way.
>
>This dog learns amazingly fast. If she doesn't get the glimmer of an idea
>what I want in the first session, I figure I'm not "explaining" it right. It
>takes longer to learn the cue and perfect whatever it is I'm after, but she
>does pick things up fast.
Bravo! Over time she will come to "pick up" the cue faster. This
is called "learning to learn."
>To teach her to close the door, I had her touch my hand on the door, removed
>my hand, added the cue. This was about ten minutes work. Then we worked on
>using more force to close the door with one touch. Now we're just working on
>her going to the door to close it no matter where I am when I give the
>command.
Great! Teaching a series of responses with the last one first is
called backward chaining. See:
http://www.coedu.usf.edu/abaglossary/glossarymain.asp?AID=5&ID=1274
>Thanks. We're doing this more for fun than anything else. I've never been
>this interested in teaching tricks, but this dog makes it fun and she seems
>so darned proud of herself when she gets something right.
>
>donna
Donna,
Many of the skills that make for an excellent dog trainer also make
for an excellent tutor of young autistic children. Throughout the
US parents of autistic children are searching for persons to tutor
their children using procedures designed by behavior analysts. See:
http://home.gwi.net/goplay/qa.htm
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
--Marshall
Karen J. Cravens
<20010724235942...@ng-mm1.aol.com>:
>He has to me. I was curious about some things in his manual and he
>explained it to me. I'm not sure if I posted the questions here or
>email. I think perhaps email...
So far, all I've seen is email.
--
Karen J. Cravens
Karen J. Cravens
<jIx77.6208$ar1....@www.newsranger.com>:
>By phone, email, msn and here to those who ask seriously.
I've never seen him do it here. Can you give me some Google references?
>With respect..... he has, many times
I suspect you're misremembering.
--
Karen J. Cravens
D.Currie
> In article <vQs77.1573$Nv1.4...@news.uswest.net> "D.Currie"
<dmbc...@hotmail.com> writes:
> The answers to these questions are largely empiricial matters i.e.,
"whatever
> works."
sounds right...
But if you don't give your dog some kind of cue to follow the stick
> then, in principle, she will be disposed to do it whenever the stick and
> objects that look like the stick are brought out and positioned in a
> certain way.
Makes sense. The targeting stick has been "customized" shall we say, and
she's already nosing just the target at the end. Mut it makes sense to give
it a cue so she wont start nosing it as soon as I pull it out.
> >This dog learns amazingly fast. If she doesn't get the glimmer of an
idea
> >what I want in the first session, I figure I'm not "explaining" it
right. It
> >takes longer to learn the cue and perfect whatever it is I'm after, but
she
> >does pick things up fast.
>
> Bravo! Over time she will come to "pick up" the cue faster. This
> is called "learning to learn."
Actually she learns the hand signals almost immediately. Verbal cues take
slightly longer. Then again, that's the last thing I add. But since I tend
to wave my hands around anyway, when I talk, it's really not an issue, and
hand signals can be more useful than verbal anyway. For example, when I'm on
the phone, I can put her in a down-stay, have her back out of my way, or
whatever, without interrupting my conversation.
A lot of our hand signals end up being a modified version of what I use to
teach her the trick in the first place. She'll follow my hand, so I can use
that to get her to move in a particular way or to a place. The movement gets
smaller until it's our signal. So "dizzy" (turning in a circle) is simply a
diagonal hand movement to the right (the beginning of the circular motion)
while roll overs are full, small circles. (And when I goof and combine the
two gestures, we get "dog in a blender" -- she rolls over while skootching
in a circle on the floor ;)
>
> >To teach her to close the door, I had her touch my hand on the door,
removed
> >my hand, added the cue. This was about ten minutes work. Then we worked
on
> >using more force to close the door with one touch. Now we're just
working on
> >her going to the door to close it no matter where I am when I give the
> >command.
>
> Great! Teaching a series of responses with the last one first is
> called backward chaining. See:
>
> http://www.coedu.usf.edu/abaglossary/glossarymain.asp?AID=5&ID=1274
>
I'll look tht up later when I ahve a chance to sit and read.
donna
Patch
"Theresa Willis" <tdwi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:hg9sltosbb8smlvts...@4ax.com...
> On 25 Jul 2001 01:27:04 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
> Dermer) wrote:
>
> >In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
"Patch"
> ><d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >
> >>Marshall,
> >>
> >>The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read
the
> >>manual itself, dont you think ?
>
> Of course, since it's fairly obvious to most of the rest of us that
> Marshall doesn't think the answer is in the manual, most of the rest
> of us understand why he isn't likely to go looking for something that
> he doesn't believe exist.
If Marshall looked for himself, instead of making assumptions [ according to
you Terri ], I would then be happy to discuss it with him.
Patch
Patch
"Rocky" <ma...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90E8D063F6F5Eau...@130.133.1.4...
Hi Matt,
I think, if Marshall has read it, he wouldn't have needed to ask his
question.
Patch
shelly
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>I think, if Marshall has read it, he wouldn't have needed to ask his
>question.
au contraire. asking you to describe how you would do
something (e.g. train a specific chain of behaviors using
Jerry's methods) does not mean that Marshall has not read
the manual. personally, unless he stated otherwise, i would
assume that he *has* read the manual and has found the
methods in it to be less than adequate for the tasks he has
outlined.
IMO you're just acting silly. are you afraid to enter into
such a discussion with Marshall?
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
i recommend that Jerry Howe be ignored because he's a
monumental pain in the arse.
Jerry Howe
misunderstanding. The objective is NOT to interrupt and distract,
it's to interrupt and PRAISE, in order to ALLOW the dog to THINK,
and direct him to the proper choices through the process of
elimination... not FEAR and FORCE...
But that takes away your sense of control and power, which is why
you HURT dogs.... Bye now! j;~}
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.01072...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Howe
professor. You denigrate the information you've never reviewed,
because you prefer to punish dogs' behavior, and not the dog, Gunga
Din... j;~}
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9jl798$at3$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
"Patch"
> <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
> >Marshall,
> >
> >The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to
read the
> >manual itself, dont you think ?
>
Jerry Howe
blue in the face, if you let him... j;~}
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:5Mp77.18969$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> "Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
> news:9jl798$at3$1...@uwm.edu...
> > In article
<etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> "Patch"
> > <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >
> > >Marshall,
> > >
> > >The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you
to read the
> > >manual itself, dont you think ?
> >
> > Dear Patch,
> >
> > Aren't you the one recommending the manual? If so, did you read
it?
> > And if you read it, why can't you reference the section that
> > addresses the issues I have raised?
> >
> > --Marshall
>
> Marshall,
>
> I`m *asking* you to please read it, then I`ll *happily* discuss it
with you.
> Its pointless having a discussion with you about it, if you
haven't read it
> for yourself.
>
> Patch
>
>
Jerry Howe
you won't understand it, because all you can think of is the final
result (which is clearly cautioned against in the text i.e., not
being goal oriented, as that puts a bone of contention between
trainer and dog), rather than MOTIVATING the dog to want to work.
That's clearly explained in the methodology, which is quite
different than the 'baby steps' you take with your clicker training.
The objective is to make a willing, working teammate, not a
subservient slave to your whim, or a bribed flunky who doesn't
understand the context of the commands. j;~}
"D.Currie" <dmbc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E9t77.1582$Nv1.4...@news.uswest.net...
Jerry Howe
j;~}
"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:ywiX7AeR1D/e09...@bangnetcom.com...
Patch
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:0s4ultcoq9u6vi14v...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:34:29 +0100, "Patch"
> <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >I think, if Marshall has read it, he wouldn't have needed to ask his
> >question.
>
> au contraire. asking you to describe how you would do
> something (e.g. train a specific chain of behaviors using
> Jerry's methods) does not mean that Marshall has not read
> the manual. personally, unless he stated otherwise, i would
> assume that he *has* read the manual and has found the
> methods in it to be less than adequate for the tasks he has
> outlined.
In which case, surely he would be saying "the manual says this or that, and
I cant see how it could work - please explain".
>
> IMO you're just acting silly. are you afraid to enter into
> such a discussion with Marshall?
Afraid to ? Not at all.
Prepared to ? Thats a different matter.
When he has read the manual, and raises specific points from it, pertaining
to his question of training a string of behaviours, I will be prepared to
discuss those aspects with him.
Patch
Jerry Howe
much as you and koehler do... Bye! j;~}
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.0107...@posting.google.com...
D.Currie
news:jIx77.6208$ar1....@www.newsranger.com...
Marilyn:
Although I haven't read every one of Jerry's posts (and now I've got him
killfiled because I couldn't take all the nastiness), I did try once to get
him to explain a single point of his method. I asked Jerry how he would
train a behavior like roll over, and he said he wouldn't train that because
he saw no need for it. I was using it just as an example, and it didn't
really matter what behavior it was. Since I been talking, in another thread,
about a dog in a class I had where the dog simply wouldn't lay down and
Jerry said he could get the dog down very quickly if he was in the class. I
decided that would serve as my example. How would he get the dog to lie
down. In class. Quickly.
We went on and on and on, with Jerry telling me to read the manual, do the
exercises, etc. etc. At times he got somewhat insulting, but I didn't take
the bait. I kept it civil and kept explaining and rephrasing the question. I
really wanted to know how his methods would address training a behavior that
the dog is not spontaneously presenting. I understand the concept of the
sound distraction, etc., but that doesn't apply to this situation, and my
original post was about how I thought the trainer's method wasn't working.
Keep in mind that this wasn't my dog, and mine know "down" already. I was
asking about his *method*, and what actions, words, etc. he would use to get
the dog down. I truly was interested in finding out what he had to say. He
told me things he wouldn't do, but never told me how he would get the dog
*down* in the first place. It was a very long, frustrating, discussion that
went absolutely nowhere. In the time we spent going back and forth, I could
have explained several methods of getting the dog to lie down (some good,
some not-so-good) but in all that wasted time, Jerry never gave any concrete
instuction on how to get the dog onto its belly. And that's all I was
asking.
That's about the time I killfiled him. I see no sense in wading through
reams of insults trying to find something pertinaint and useful. And yes, he
quite often resorts to things like, "read the manual, your're not doing it
right, you skipped a step, you don't understand, you have to start at the
beginning, you have to read and do the whole thing because it's a gestalt"
etc. instead of addressing a single point that a poster is talking about. It
really isn't very helpful or very interesting. It's like asking Jerry for
directions to the grocery store, and Jerry tells you that you have to build
the car first.
donna
'It's worse than that. Sometimes I think I'm living in a perpendicular
universe."
shelly
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
>
>> personally, unless he stated otherwise, i would
>> assume that he *has* read the manual and has found the
>> methods in it to be less than adequate for the tasks he has
>> outlined.
>
>In which case, surely he would be saying "the manual says this or that, and
>I cant see how it could work - please explain".
apparently not.
>> IMO you're just acting silly. are you afraid to enter into
>> such a discussion with Marshall?
>
>Afraid to ? Not at all.
>Prepared to ? Thats a different matter.
okay, then silly it is.
>When he has read the manual, and raises specific points from it, pertaining
>to his question of training a string of behaviours, I will be prepared to
>discuss those aspects with him.
well, *one* of you is going to have to step in first and put
your cards on the table. apparently, however, the two of
you are at a stand-off and further attempts by either one of
you to start a discussion on the topic would be pointless.
thanks for clearing that up.
Marilyn
>
>"Marilyn" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
>news:jIx77.6208$ar1....@www.newsranger.com...
>> In article <Xns90E8CFEB...@192.168.0.3>, Karen J. Cravens says...
>>>I've never
>> >actually seen him explain anything.
>> With respect..... he has, many times
>> best regards,
>> Marilyn
>>
>
>Marilyn:
Hi Donna,
From what you say, I can understand your frustration.
However, I can only speak from personal experience/observations.
Best regards,
Marshall Dermer
<d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>Marshall,
>
>manual itself, dont you think ?
Dear Patch,
Jerry's manual is terribly written. I can't stomach reading much of it.
But if you have read and understood the manual then the quickest way to "get
an answer to my question" about training a dog to engage in a chain of
behaviors might be to ask you!
But sadly, you apparently don't want to share your knowledge of the manual
with me.
Contrariwise, if you ever have a training question and are interested in
what an academic behavior analyst might have to say, I'll quickly and
happily answer it.
Why?
Because the major function of this newsgroup is to help people train their
dogs and exchange information about dog training.
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only for
myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_
Theresa Willis
Dermer) wrote:
>
>Or consider this from the manual: "The first thing you may notice is the
>lack of confusing psychobabble."
>
>What does Jerry mean by "psychobabble"?
Oddly enough, the entire contents of Jerry's "manual".
HTH!
--Terri & Harlan
Jerry Howe
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9jlgv9$asa$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >Marshall,
> > The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to
> > read the manual itself, dont you think ?
> >Then, feel free to discuss it of course, on any points you feel
> > might not help you do what you want.
> >Patch
> Dear Patch,
> Patch I can't stomach reading the entire manual because it is so
> poorly written.
Sorry professor. You couldn't stomach reading past the part where I
crucify the universities and professors who burn rats on hotplates
to prove pain interferes with the pleasure of eating and drinking...
> And reading the updated manual's style makes me sick too!
Seems to me I offered you the opportunity to edit my work for
whatever price you asked...
> Can you help me with what I have read?
Yeah, I think I can. You stated my method was not compelet, although
YOU ADMIT you never read past the introduction, professor LYING doc
dermer.
> For example, "The Wits' End Dog Training Method is the fastest,
> gentlest, most effective, comprehensive behavior
> modification/obedience and protection training technique available
> anywhere... And now, it's FREE!!! It's copyright 1998
information,
> so be advised: use it wisely, and use it often. Use, copy, and
> distribute it in it its entirety or none at all."
> Has Jerry really compared his manual with all available manuals?
Have you, professor? Have you even read my manual? No, by your own
admission.
> What evidence does he present about this?
Oh, that's easily proven by simply trying the techniques.
> There are many books on basic and applied behavior analysis that
> are more comphrehensive than Jerry's manual, for example:
Yeah, if you want to spend a lot of time in the crapper reading.
<snip library catalogue list>
> Do you really believe Jerry read all these books in conducting his
> review?
Do you really believe any of your professors can motivate and train
a dog faster than any amature could using my method? I'd stake my
life against it...
> Or consider this from the manual: "Not everyone needs formal
> obedience training."
And that means what to you, professor "can't stomach reading the
text" you've condemned? What do you think your BOSS would say to
that? I do expect I'll be chit chatting with them at some point,
perhaps when they award me an honorary doctorate for my
groundbreaking work in bioacoustice?
> Well, I'm sure I don't need obedience training, but do you think
that
> it might help Jerry?
You need to be fired, and put out to throw trash barrels, professor
lying doc dermer.
> Or consider this from the manual: "The first thing you may notice
is
> the lack of confusing psychobabble."
Yeah, shove your dro's and - + reniforcing crap.
> What does Jerry mean by "psychobabble"?
HOWE about the crap you spew, along with the rest of our Thugs who
use semantics to disguise BEATING and SHOCKING and CHOKING dogs?
> Or how about this: "Food bribes, or treats associated with
training,
> although generally endorsed by traditional trainers, is strictly
> against everything we are trying to impart through our
> unconventional approach."
> Don't you think that the plural subject "bribes" takes a plural
verb
> or is grammar too conventional for Jerry?
What the heel are you trying to say, lying doc dermer? My gramma
sucks? Lay off of her, she helped me with my spelling and encouraged
me to do the work...
> Or this: "Any time your dog is more concerned with his gut than
> your desires, you could be the next course on the menu. We're
> training companion animals, not pigs."
> No comment. The above already is too funny! :-)
You'll be laughing your ass off when your unversity throws your
dirty lying @$$ out on the street. HOWE'S my punctuation, professor?
> Or how about this: "All we need to do is to establish a smooth
flow
> of information and allow thoughts to flow fluidly, maintaining an
> open dialogue without becoming focused on the desired command,
> or getting stuck in a confrontation."
> Why can't Jerry follow his own advice on rpdb?
Ahh! An EXCELLENT QUESTION, professor lying doc. That's because
Jerry is quite familiar with the nature of our lying, dog abusing
Thugs, and Jerry came in here NOT to rehabilitate them, but to
IDENTIFY, EXPOSE, DISCREDIT, and DISPATCH our lying, dog abusing
Thugs... like YOU, professor.
Do you deny you endorse koehler?
> And what does this mean: "We have a methodology based on
> defaults"?
Yes, professor lying doc dermer, DEFAULTS. That's HOWE we FORCE the
dog to WORK.
> Thanks for helping me figure out the manual.
Sorry professor, Jerry STILL doesn't tolerate LAZY students. You'll
need to read the text in order continue this semester of Wits' End
Dog Training...
> --Marshall
I teach the entire concept in one fell swoop, professor. Dogs can
learn much moore and much faster than you care to believe
professor, because you only understand bribery and force, you don't
know HOWE to make the dog WANT to work for you. You "punish
dogs' behaviors, and not the dog." That's why your little dog
masturbates on the couch, from anxiety about having his behaviors
punished. It's either that, or it's allelomimetic behavior
(imitation, profesor).
Contrawise, the Wits' End Dog Training Method uses scientific and
psychological non force, non confrontational, conditioning
techniques which will train the dog to come in about one hour
reliably, as a conditioned reflex.
> I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge
> newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb
regulars
> from whom I have learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo &
> Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan
> Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob
> Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin Nuttall,
> Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith,
> Jane Webb, and Terri Willis.
> Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
> Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
> Milwaukee, WI 53201
> der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
> "If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only
> for myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_
That's EZ, doc. The Talmud would agree that you're a schmuck.
Here's why:
Yes, you've led some of the arguments defending
force, punishment, hurting dogs, and deriding non
force methods. You criticize my methods without
reading any further than my condemnation of the
universities for the sorry state of the art of
behaviorism as it exists today in dog training.
You've recently endorsed the koehler method. In
order to endorse the koehler method, you must be
prepared to hang dogs who object to the
incrementally increasing force, violence, and
intimidation. Koehler justifies hurting dogs for
willfully disobeying commands as a direct affront to
the trainers AUTHORITY.
Isn't aggression a predictable response to jerking and
choking and shocking and twisting and pinching
ears, toes, and testicles, and beating dogs with sticks
to MOTIVATE THEM?
Don'cha thaink?
You are probably into teaching because it gives you a sense
of CONTROL. Too bad your school is not the REAL
WORLD, where adults compete against adults. YOU rule
children, and get your kicks being in charge.
Here, you're just another dog abuser. And a punk.
You couldn't even maintain the title Master Of Deception,
without going over the edge, and LYING.
> Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil
> and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom
> I have learned much.
This is going to hurt a little bit, doc. Brace yourself.
It'll be all over in about two minutes. Just relax.
> They include: Amy Dahl,
Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods,
weren't we...
She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to
motivate dogs to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears,
not twists them. NO mention of twisting of toes or
testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS,
retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve...
NICE stuff, huh?
> Diane Blackman,
Yes, diane... She's as confused and deceitful as they
come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars
so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds,
and so that people won't SEE the prongs and think
the less of her... She twists words better than you
can, BECAUSE SHE HASN'T GOT BAGGED FOR
LYING, LIKE YOU DID.
She's got a dog who's been a chronic puller for five
years, and she day boards her dogs because she can't
trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of
lousy advice, but diane won't edit the lousy ones that
teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn't
know enough about training to discern good from
bad information... Whaddaya thaink of that?
> Janet Boss,
Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly.
She's as incompetent a creature as G-D could
possibly create. I'll be throwing THAT in HIS face
when I get there... She has no business telling people
to kill their dogs because their only option is
to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the
rest of his life. See the thread ''interested in hearing''
and you'll see for yourself HOWE you bums
mishandle and kill dogs because you don't have any
IDEAS and can't outwit a puppydog...
> Susan Fraser,
susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks
and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she
doesn't hurt them.
> Avrama Gingold,
Our Professora... She got her damned teeth knocked
down her throat when her dog finally figured out
HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an
accident. That's called allelomimetic behavior.
avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel
or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to
himself. Dogs are smart.
Don't take my word for it, that's in the Wits' End Dog
Training Method manual.
> Lynn Kosmakos,
Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and
hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She
justifies force because there are so many dogs to
HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the
shelter she kills dogs at.
> Bob Maida,
What advice? "Don't let him do that?" Killfiles is all
he writes about. He can't talk dog training because
he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his
foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he's
craping toenails... He's no dog trainer.
He said he recommends cindymoron's Website to his
''students'' and they tell him HOWE much they've
benefited from it... cindymron's site has instructions
for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to
choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the
chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears
and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and
twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog's
heads under water you've filled into a hole he's dug
to break dogs of digging.
I guess boob's student's only learned the jerking and
choking from him...
Your pal boob had been begging his ''teacher'' cap'n
faggotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He
sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter
saying she'd sue me if I told the truth here...
Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a
motorcycle gang paying me a little visit... Do you ride,
lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some
dead bikers machines.
> Cindy Tittle Moore,
A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and
hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you
HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs.
Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron?
Here's the deal... We get her to force fetch train three
dogs in front of a childs playground, and I'll train
three protection dogs in the same site, and we'll see
who the children are disturbed by, and who the
parents are going to call the cops on... And then I'll
show up as expert witness for the prosecution, and
we'll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a
criminal judge and jury... HOWE'S that for a FAIR
TEST???
> Denna Pace,
Says she sees a lot of value in koehler... She's got PLENTY
of problems with her own dogs running away and being
disobedient.
> John Richardson,
He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle.
He's as abusive and immature as they come. He's a
clone of dogman. The dogs he can't hurt into being
friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike
yourself, he's too stupid to be evil. He's just doing
what koehler taught him.
> Ludwig Smith,
Another koehler trainer. He's too cowardly to come
out and say what he believes. He throws around lots
of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help
in koehler's books. He's got a link to cindymoron's
page on his sig file...
> and Terri Willis.
The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because
she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS
TO HURT DOGS. Psychoclown wrote: "Nope. That "beating
dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro manure."
NEXT POST, we'll talk about YOU, lyindoc dermer.
Let's figure out why your dog masturbates on the couch pillows.
Could it be just a result of punishing his behaviors, or is
it REALLY allelomimetic behavior? Bye!
> Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University
of
> Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
> http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
You can get all the information you need to properly handle
and train your dog using non force, non confrontational,
scientific and psychological behavior modification and
conditioning techniques, from the Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com
BEWARE the forgeries to confuse you, and the warnings
offered to you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding
killfiling my posts and the Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual. These people are frantic at the thought of not
having anymore EXCUSE for being able to jerk, choke,
and hurt dogs on pronged, choke, and electronic shock collars.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you
to killfile my advice...and tell you to punish, confine, and
confront your dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs
are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and
their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING
THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are, AND WANT
YOU TO BE, so they don't look out of sorts.
You cannot trust your dog's well being to people who tell you
to killfile my advice...and tell you to punish, confine, and
confront your dog's behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs
are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and
their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING
THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are, AND WANT
YOU TO BE, so they don't look out of sorts.
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions,
and judge things by reason's way, not by popular say."
-Montaigne-
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
-Salvor Hardin-
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them."
-H.S. Truman-
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE
GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY
ATROCITY."
- G.B. Shaw -
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Jerry Howe
like to inflict PAIN, with the parents consent, of cours... j;~}
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9jmgcb$mj8$1...@uwm.edu...
Jerry Howe
You did get the point: "read the manual, your're not doing it
right, you skipped a step, you don't understand, you have to start
at the
beginning, you have to read and do the whole thing because it's a
gestalt"
That's why I can't answer your question, because the answer to "HOWE
do we make the dog down, is NOT in the down command, but in the
methodology, for which you'd NEED to read and understand the entire
text, not just the 'command' as janet boss and steve boyer and the
dip $#!T from Norway (not Helle) who maligned my method without
having read the entire text, found out the embarrassing way.
Sorry, but I can't explain to people what they never read, therefore
they don't have a valid question, like our professor is asking
Patch. j;~}
"D.Currie" <dmbc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b5f2...@nntp.prolynx.com...
Lynn K.
> I think, if Marshall has read it, he wouldn't have needed to ask his
> question.
Not quite. I have read Jerry's manual (twice) and view Marshall's
question as very valid.
Lynn K.
Mike
is so childish and so poorly written it's embarrising.
--
-------------------------------------
Mike
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they
went."
"I can't be wrong -- my modem is error-correcting."
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.01072...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Howe
the introduction where I crucified the universities for the crap
they teach and the Thugs they employ to teach their crap. They're a
bunch of shakedown artists, if you ask me.... j;~}
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:iaF77.23858$Iz3.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Jerry Howe
of ridiculous comands. The method teaches dogs to WANT to do
anything we ask, because we asked them. Ask Paul if you want to know
about the method, he's about the best trainer on the forum... j;~}
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:t69ultcggor0mom89...@4ax.com...
Jerry Howe
manual, you skimmed it for errors and couldn't find any. Jerry.
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.01072...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Howe
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
As for what we chat about? That's not nearly as important as
what we DON'T chat about, like twisting and pinching dogs' ears and
toes and testicles and shocking and beating them with sticks, to
make them want to work. Here's the stick fetch. Here's where your
pal amy dahl ties a Retriever dog to a tree and throws a bumper out
of his reach and then beats him with a stick to make him "REALLY
DIG IN."
"Mike" <mdu...@snakebite.com> wrote in message
news:9jo6r2$3gd2$1...@node21.cwnet.roc.gblx.net...
Jerry Howe
I hope you read it more carefully than you did my manual... seems
you didn't understand it at all. j;~}
"D.Currie" <dmbc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b5f0...@nntp.prolynx.com...
Jerry Howe
happened to chose the stand command to prove the method wrong...
The only problem with that, was they both asked questions which were
answered in the context of other matters, where they belong, not in
the stand command where they are ALSO used. j;~}
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90E8CFEB...@192.168.0.3...
> "Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> <Qom77.18049$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>:
>
> > He wouldnt be working just from the book, but in constant
contact with
> > Jerry, who will explain any points the OP is unsure of.
>
> Have you ever seen Jerry explain points anyone is unsure of? I'm
asking
> this in all seriousness. I've only ever seen him tell people "you
must
> have skipped a step, go do it again," or sometimes "you're not
bright
> enough to follow directions" or things even more abusive. I've
never
> actually seen him explain anything.
>
> --
> Karen J. Cravens
>
>
Jerry Howe
bright enough to recognize the answer, because it don't look like
training advice because there's no PAIN involved. j;~}
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90E952AB...@192.168.0.3...
> human...@aol.com (Humanhere2) wrote in
> <20010724235942...@ng-mm1.aol.com>:
>
> >He has to me. I was curious about some things in his manual and
he
> >explained it to me. I'm not sure if I posted the questions here
or
> >email. I think perhaps email...
>
> So far, all I've seen is email.
>
>
> --
> Karen J. Cravens
>
>
Jerry Howe
The manual promises to teach the reader to train his dog to WANT to
do everything they're ASKED.
If you've got questions, I suggest you ask Paul B, he's pretty
capable of talking on your level without talking down to your
intellect... j;~}
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9jlce2$530$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <hg9sltosbb8smlvts...@4ax.com> Theresa
Willis
> <tdwi...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >Oh, that's an easy one: The manual is no use at all in answering
> >questions like that.
> >
> >--Terri & Harlan (ask us a hard one!)
>
> Now how is Patch EVER going to learn if you and Harlan don't even
raise your
> hand and wait to be called on--but just blurt out the answer?! :-)
>
> --Marshall
>
>
Jerry Howe
read past the introduction where I indict the universities for the
shameful state of the art of dog tranining and behavior... I've
proven him to be quite wrong about most everything he teaches. Bye!
j;~}
"Rocky" <ma...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90E8D063F6F5Eau...@130.133.1.4...
> "Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> news:5Mp77.18969$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com:
>
> > Its pointless having a discussion with you about it, if you
> > haven't read it for yourself.
>
> I must have missed the post where Marshall said that he hadn't
> read it.
>
> My opinion is that he's read it thoroughly and is asking your
> interpretation of its methods.
>
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Jerry Howe
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:0s4ultcoq9u6vi14v...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:34:29 +0100, "Patch"
> <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >I think, if Marshall has read it, he wouldn't have needed to ask
his
> >question.
Right. You can't answer a question that isn't a concern in the
methodology. We don't MAKE a dog DO, we teach the dog to WANT to do,
as we ASK.
> au contraire. asking you to describe how you would do
> something (e.g. train a specific chain of behaviors using
> Jerry's methods) does not mean that Marshall has not read
> the manual.
Our good professor has admitted several times he didn't READ the
manual past the introduction where I soundly thrashed the
universities and the Thugs who teach us to abuse dogs as dr p from
the university and professor dermer, who endorse the koehler method.
That means they hurt and will kill dogs for defending themeslves
from physical assault as taught in the training method.
> personally, unless he stated otherwise, i would assume that he
> *has* read the manual and has found the methods in it to be less
> than adequate for the tasks he has outlined.
He's slandered my manual and said it was not a complete method, and
then admitted never reading past the introduction, or he'd never ask
the questions about the DEFAULTS built into the methodology... These
questions about some simple commands are a waste of time. All we
need to do is ASK and the dog will TRY to do as we ask. It's all
covered in the text.
> IMO you're just acting silly.
Oh, well that's because you're a proven liar. You've called me a
liar for almost two years in your sig file, and now that you have
failed to prove it, have taken it out of you sig... I haven't
changed. Yet you stopped calling me a liar... Hmm. Strange. I didn't
know we get our good name back if we refrain from lying for six
months.
> are you afraid to enter into
> such a discussion with Marshall?
There's no discussion because the professor has no questions,
because he's not read the text. He doesn't know enough about the
basics to engage in a sensible discussion, as proved by his stupid
questions.
> shelly and elliott & harriet
Psychoclown wrote:
Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure.
Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the
benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses
not to read the article (SHE'D REALLY LIKE IT IF
YOU DON'T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of
"twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH
SPIKES).
I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO
BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM).
I would never advise anyone to slap a dog
(SHE'S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you
expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???).
I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever,
where slapping a dog is anything but destructive."
RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff
doesn't mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama....
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as
force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that
if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in"
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.
Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead
of your thumb;
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear.
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996":
"Housebreaking problems":
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Some of the new "breaking scents" on the market can
aid in your house-breaking program. One type
discourages the dog from even visiting an
area. Another encourages him to relieve himself in the
area where it is sprinkled. Your pet shop should be
able to supply further information on the brands available in your
district.
Be fair to your dog in what and when you feed him and
be consistent in your efforts to housebreak him, and
you'll soon accomplish the job.
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996
William Koehler
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain
you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were
against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet
them, so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in
his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more
emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one
that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from
a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless you
supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he
thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at
the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs
with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As
was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not
lessen the dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more
discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because
you're gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical
for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater
to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed
the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little
ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort
doesn't turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a
stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will
also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog
drags it around when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a
man's leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular
dog
a good tanning. Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember,
you're dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and
neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but
where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If
you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful
not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as
sharp as yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so
you can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally
impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of
"out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you've
conveniently placed, and descend on him. He'll have no chance to
dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are
raised off the floor or, if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him
up with a hitch on something. While he's held in close, lay the
strap
vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on
a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After
fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end
up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've
always felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they
"cry out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your
dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range
bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat
the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a
full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he
gets away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble
on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just
a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you
have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe
his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be
watching and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the
family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a
block or two from your house so you can come back and park within
earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you've
returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool
the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving
off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has
reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when
you're not around, so give the above method an honest try before
you presume your dog requires a more severe correction.
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer endorses
koehler. (He said: "I punish dog's behavior, NOT the dog." You
gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???)
"Read koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular.
"I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.
"There's much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away
from home.)
"Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.)
"Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq's page," ludwig smith.
"I'm not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn, lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler's methods. They don't
consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, twist
and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them
Jerry Howe
"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:tgiX7AeR...@bangnetcom.com...
> In article <4/NX7AeR1...@bangnetcom.com>,
> ms...@bangnetcom.com (Mark Shaw) wrote:
> >In article <995925910.575697@dionysos>,
> >"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote:
> >>I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself,
so this
> >
> >Where did you read this?
> >
> >Just curious, because over the past several years I've seen
nothing
> >at all to indicate that Howe has ever had any kind of dog
whatsoever.
>
> Mr. Fischarge, I really would like an answer to this question, for
> the reason noted. I don't mean to be confrontational, but it
really
> is a simple question and I don't think it would put you out very
much
> to respond.
>
> If you don't recall or don't wish to tell us, please just say so.
>
> Again: thanks in advance.
>
> [posted and emailed]
>
> --
> Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to
'not'
>
====================================================================
===
> "No one appreciates the very special genius
> of your conversation as the dog
-Christopher Morley
Jenn
OMG this thread has become very funny! After being off for a day or so, it's
nice to come back in for a giggle.
Thanks for the laughs everybody!
Jenn
Jenn
"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:tgiX7AeR...@bangnetcom.com...
> In article <4/NX7AeR1...@bangnetcom.com>,
> ms...@bangnetcom.com (Mark Shaw) wrote:
> >In article <995925910.575697@dionysos>,
> >"Daniel Fischarge" <Da...@ddriver.fsnet.couk> wrote:
> >>I read somewhere that Jerry Howe has actually got Danes himself, so this
> >
> >Where did you read this?
> >
> >Just curious, because over the past several years I've seen nothing
> >at all to indicate that Howe has ever had any kind of dog whatsoever.
>
> Mr. Fischarge, I really would like an answer to this question, for
> the reason noted. I don't mean to be confrontational, but it really
> is a simple question and I don't think it would put you out very much
> to respond.
>
> If you don't recall or don't wish to tell us, please just say so.
>
> Again: thanks in advance.
Google'd
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=great+danes+group:rec.pets.dogs.behavior+a
uthor:Jerry+author:howe&num=20&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&rnum=3&selm=8r3d8v%
24gr42k%241%40ID-41291.news.cis.dfn.de
D.Currie
> >news:jIx77.6208$ar1....@www.newsranger.com...
> From what you say, I can understand your frustration.
> However, I can only speak from personal experience/observations.
> Best regards,
> Marilyn
Hi Marilyn,
Since you're familiar with Jerry's method, perhaps you can answer the
question for him. Or perhaps if you rephrase the question and ask Jerry,
maybe he can explain it you and perhaps you would be kind enough to pass
along his answer to me. As I said, I have him killfiled :) But I really
would like to know the answer to this question.
Here is the relevent parts of the thread that originally started the
discussion:
Me: >> I saw one dog in an obedience class that had a tough time
>> with "down." No matter what, the dog wanted to stand or sit
>> and had a heck of a time getting the idea of laying
>> down.
>> It simply didn't present the behavior when it was on-leash, and
>> I can't see how using a sound cue would have caused the dog
>> to lie down.
>
Jerry: >I'd bet a hundred bucks I could have him down in twenty minutes. YOU
>think the hypothetical situation you gave me is difficult? Hell NO!
<snip>
Me: Since you didn't seem to like the roll over command, maybe this
would be a better example for you. How, specifically, would you go about
teaching the command? The situation was that the dog had never been exposed
to the *down* command prior to this, and he didn't lay down randomly during
classes. The dog preferred standing, but would sit on command. It was a
friendly dog; not at all mean. It walked nicely on leash. How would you go
about getting the dog into the *down* position and teaching the command?
You said you could do it in 20 minutes, so please tell me the specific
actions, sounds, words, touches etc. that you would use to get the dog
*down* and teach the command.
So you see the original comment from Jerry was that he could get the dog
down in 20 minutes, and I asked him to explain how HE would do it. With that
dog in that situation. It's not a matter of training my dogs; they know this
command. It's a question of his method, and how it differs (or is similar
to) other training methods. It seemed like a simple enough question but I
never got an answer.
As far as my need to read the manual (which I have, by the way) if I was an
observer in that class, and Jerry had his 20 minutes, I wouldn't need to
read the manual to watch and listen. that's all I'm asking for. What would
he have done, said, etc.?
So perhaps you can explain how YOU would teach a dog the down command in
this situation. I assume (perhaps wrongly) that your methods are similar. Of
course, since you didn't make the brag about getting it done in 20 minutes,
that's not necessary. But I would like to know the steps you would take,
movements. verbal cues, or whatever.
Thanks,
Donna
Marilyn
Hi Donna,
Please bear with me - I am going to reply to your post,
probably tomorrow.
best regards,
Marilyn
In article <3b606...@nntp.prolynx.com>, D.Currie says...
Mike
A) There is no reason to argue with you 'cause you don't have a CLUE what
you are talking about.
B) A brilliant man like you can't even write a well-composed article. This
says a LOT.
C) You don't have a CLUE what the hell you are talking about. You write like
a CHILD. I wouldn't be an asshole to you if you aren't an asshole to just
about everyone.
Go make up more stuff about people. That's fine 'cause no one reads your
crap no matter what you think.
--
-------------------------------------
Mike
"If there are no dogs in heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they
went."
"I can't be wrong -- my modem is error-correcting."
"Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:aKN77.9706$UB6.9...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Mark Shaw
"Jenn" <bri...@powersurfer.com> wrote:
>"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
>news:tgiX7AeR...@bangnetcom.com...
>>
>> the reason noted. I don't mean to be confrontational, but it really
>> is a simple question and I don't think it would put you out very much
>> to respond.
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=great+danes+group:rec.pets.dogs.behavior+a
>uthor:Jerry+author:howe&num=20&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&rnum=3&selm=8r3d8v%
>24gr42k%241%40ID-41291.news.cis.dfn.de
Yeah, that's just a Howe post. I was kind of hoping for something
credible -- I mean, I could post an article claiming that my family
has been in Venusian swamphounds for eight generations, and it
wouldn't mean that was true....
I haven't heard anything at all from Fischarge since his original
post. I conclude that he's a sock puppet.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"I'm too lazy to do research." -Michael Patton
Mark Shaw
tdwi...@earthlink.net (HarCo Industries) wrote:
>
>Hey, Mark, do you suppose that Patch and the Marilyn went to the same
>dancing school? Their moves are very similar.
It's really interesting to watch their techniques. Patchy Spice is
quite a bit more graceful than Maz Spice, but of course she does
stumble now and then.
Were I to grasp desperately for a couple of metaphors, I'd say that
Patchy Spice is an eel or weasel or some other slippery/slithery
type of animal for whom the evasory move comes naturally, while Maz
Spice is more like your common drunken clomping rhino.
Oops, thats a metaphor and a simile. Dang, I hate it when that
happens.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"Ever consider what they must think of us? I mean, here we come back from
a grocery store with the most amazing haul -- chicken, pork, half a cow.
They must think we're the greatest hunters on earth!" -Anne Tyler
Mark Shaw
>on the blackboard a hundred million times.
>
>In binary.
Oh, fine, that's easy enough for you -- you'll write it once, then
cut-and-paste in logarithmic time. And binary's your native lan-
guage anyway, isn't it?
Let's see, lg(100E6) is what -- somewhere between 16 and 17? (Being
a meat person, I don't have one of Jack Kilby's wonders immediately
at hand at all times.) But anyway, you ought to be done with this
before the rest of us could write our names in squirt-ketchup on the
back of a Great Pyranees, especially considering that you'll probably
hand the text expansion off to some peripheral.
So I suggest an alternative punishment: nineteen haikus on grace and
clumsiness, and the relationship thereof, with the image of an adoles-
cent Doberman Pinscher trotting across a linoleum floor in pursuit of
a laser dot as the major subject.
Heh. Heh. Heh.
D.Currie
>
> Hi Donna,
> Please bear with me - I am going to reply to your post,
> probably tomorrow.
> best regards,
> Marilyn
>
Thanks
You can email it, if you prefer.
donna
Jerry Howe
> Uh - idiot, you don't comprehend much - do you?
>
> A) There is no reason to argue with you 'cause you don't have a
CLUE what
> you are talking about.
>
> B) A brilliant man like you can't even write a well-composed
article. This
> says a LOT.
>
> C) You don't have a CLUE what the hell you are talking about. You
write like
> a CHILD. I wouldn't be an asshole to you if you aren't an asshole
to just
> about everyone.
>
> Go make up more stuff about people. That's fine 'cause no one
reads your
> crap no matter what you think.
Why don't you take issue with the facts:
Psychoclown wrote:
Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
"Housebreaking problems":
William Koehler
Read about our dog lovers methods for training a Retriever dog to
retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their
name for? (it's at the bottom)
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???
Here's the twisting and pinching part:
What is Force Fetching All About?
by Cindy Tittle Moore
Copyright 1997,1998 by the
author; all rights reserved.
INTRODUCTION
Force fetching refers to a training program whereby the dog is
taught that he has no choice about going out and picking up
something that you tell him to. Because of the many negative
connotations (and inherent imprecision) of the term "force fetch," I
generally prefer the term "conditioned retrieve."
The need to impose a conditioned retrieve unrelated to the dog's
desire to retrieve. While you can condition a dog with no retrieving
instinct whatsoever to retrieve, this training process is really all
about
teaching the dog to perform the retrieve under control. We all know
of
enthusiastic retrievers who bounce out to get the thrown object ...
and then play tag with it. Or drop it at your feet. Or race past you
on
the way back. Or, go out to pick it up and then refuse because it's
not his favorite toy. Or you want him to pick up something that is
already laying on the ground and he's not interested because the
thrill of the "flight and chase" was not there. Or perhaps you're
asking him to pick up something that he'd really rather not put in
his
mouth. What do you do about these situations? Teaching the
conditioned retrieve is one way to deal with these problems.
Remember, the "traditional" part of the conditioned retrieve, ear
pinching, is perhaps one third of the overall training program that
allows a dog to reach this point of reliable non-refusal. The
technique
we use here is avoidance. In order to successfully, with the least
amount of stress, use this technique, the means of escape must
be taught first. In teaching something via avoidance, the dog learns
that a specific behavior controls the stimulus he wishes to escape.
That behavior is taught first so that it is a comfortable and well
understood behavior by the time we bring pressure to bear.
"Force fetching" was originally developed in the 19th century by
Pointer folks, who were dealing with dogs with little to no
retrieving instinct but who wanted to expand the utility of their
dogs in the field. The process (which actually started with the toe
hitch) has been refined in successive decades. Its application to
retrievers is not because the dogs refuse to retrieve but the
handler
needs to gain control over the dog to meet the demands of a day of
hunting or the requirements of a hunt test or field trial. The dog
must
be thoroughly trained to accept directions for a blind retrieve,
which
differs significantly from a marked fall in which the dog knows that
there is a bird to retrieve. In the blind, the dog has only your
say-so
that there is in fact something to retrieve.
In my personal opinion, one of the best overviews of the conditioned
retrieve can be found in James Spencer's Training Retrievers for the
Field and Marshes. I follow his outline rather closely. Another
excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving
Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice
Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics
electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training
techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what
they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion
or
condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever
Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar
as well.)
Caveat
There are, however, many variations on this theme and it's hard to
say if any are better or worse than others. Certainly there are
individuals who misapply these methods, as there are individuals who
will abuse any technique. Much of the success in conditioning a
retrieve is very dependent on the trainer's timing and access to
experienced help. In other words, do not try to do this with your
dogs
unless you have someone experienced in this technique to help
you out in person.
Other notes
There is a groundswell of interest in "non forced" techniques for
the conditioned retrieve. I cannot say as to how well any of these
work, as I have not used any of these techniques as the sole means
of finishing a conditioned retrieve on any of my dogs. I have,
however, had a good deal of success applying some of these
techniques to puppies before teething and in beginning phases. I do
encourage you to go out and investigate these methods if you are
interested, but do note that my personal opinion is that at some
time,
corrections are required to teach the dog he has no option but to do
what he's asked. This is a whole philosphical area of dog training
that
I am not prepared to get into in this article. I do not say that my
methods are the only way, I encourage you to read and investigate
more if you wish. I am simply attempting to answer questions about a
specific methodology and hopefully to dispell some of the mythology
surrounding it.
Finally
The below described program is intended for the dog who is at least
6, preferably 9 months old. You want to be past the irritating and
distracting teething stage so that your dog is not sidetracked in
the
process.
THE HOLD
Anyhow, the first part of a conditioned retrieve is teaching him to
HOLD. There really are two separate concepts going on in retrieving
an object. One is GOING OUT AND PICKING IT UP. The other
concept is KEEPING IT IN THE MOUTH.
So, teach your dog to hold first. This is actually taught quite
conventionally. You need to start with a dog that will sit and walk
nicely alongside first. The dog does not have to know hoiw to heel,
but it helps. The dog should be easily controllable by you. The dog
should be well past the new teeth stage (I'd say past 9 months of
age
in Labradors, though many people will begin forcing at 6 months).
Know how to pry your dog's mouth open. Put your hand on the
muzzle, with your thumb on one side and the rest of your fingers on
the other, with the pinkie finger closest to the eyes. Push the
dog's
lips in forcing his mouth to open. You can train your dog to be
responsive to this: pop a treat in his mouth when you do this, and
he
will learn not to fight too much when you handle his muzzle. If you
need to, use your other hand to pull his lower jaw down a little,
then
pop in the treat. You can easily train him to open his mouth with
your
hand on the muzzle this way.
I like to use a plain obedience type wooden dumbbell. You can use a
1" by 1' dowel of wood as well, but I recommend that you use
something that is easy to scoop off the floor at some point. Most
people recommend that you not use any toys or bumpers or anything
that you will be sorry to see him hate later. Though I must point
out
that I use the obedience dumbbell and do not see resentment to the
dumbbell later. But bumpers can be awkward to handle particularly
when first picking off the floor, so I would not use them in
training.
Put a leash and collar on him and you are ready to go.
First exercise: With your dog sitting and under control, open up his
mouth, say HOLD and pop the dumbbell in, hold his mouth closed
for one second, praise him, say GIVE and pop the dumbbell out. You
are not going to let him fail at this stage. You are going to do
this
smoothly and quickly enough that he doesn't have a chance to do
much of anything, but that the praise does register. You will do
this
5-10 times then quit. (Most of your force fetching sessions will be
less
than 5 minutes long.) Ideally do this twice a day, morning and
night,
but definitely do this daily. Do it just before you feed him.
Gradually lengthen the amount of time you hold his mouth shut.
Remember, you are not giving him a chance to do anything but hold
it, because you are actively holding his mouth shut right now. If he
manages to spit it out (it can seem that you need a third or fourth
hand in this process), just say NO quietly and pop it back in.
If he spits it out a lot despite your efforts, you need to either
shorten
things up so he doesn't have a chance to do this, or recruit someone
to help you.
Here's the important part. DO NOT STINT ON PRAISE. Tell him what
a good boy (or girl) he is. Do not let up. Even if he's fighting
you,
praise him. Stop the praise the moment the dumbbell is out of his
mouth. You are not doing this right unless your significant other
and/or neighbors think you are stark raving nuts.
A word on fighting you. One of the objectives in this training
exercise is control. If he's fighting you, this is what the collar
and leash are for. If he flops down, pull him back up into a sitting
position. Keep him sitting. If he moves his head away from you, move
it back. If he tosses his head around, hold his muzzle or collar to
keep his head still. Visualize exactly how you want him positioned
throughout this exercise and then keep him to that. Don't let him
stand, don't let him flop on his back, don't let him buck his head
around, or back up, or do anything but sit in front of you.
When you have him at the point he will hold the dumbbell without
fussing as you hold his mouth shut over it, the next step is to let
go for a second. If he spits it out, say NO and put it back it. You
should be able to hold your hand under his chin and anticipate an
attempt to spit it out. Prevent it with a gentle thump under his
mouth
and a repeated HOLD. Your goal is to have him sit and hold that
dumbbell quietly. Don't be upset if he spits it out, and he will,
just replace it. You're teaching him that he does not have an option
here.
How long will this phase last? It depends on the dog. I've taken
everywhere from a week to a month at this stage. The longer the
better, patience and consistency really pay off in this exercise.
Puppies who were introduced to the concept when quite young move
through this stage very quickly.
There are two things that really help in this phase. The first is to
sit down and VISUALIZE what you want your dog to do, ideally. Get
that mental picture of your dog quietly and without fuss holding
that
dumbbell in his mouth. This is important, because it is amazing what
many people will let the dog do so long as he has the dumbbell in
his mouth. They will let him roll around, scream, toss his head
(roll
the dumbbell), because they are so focused on keeping it in his
mouth he gets away with everything else. Don't do that. Not only
does he have to keep it in his mouth, but he has to be under control
as well.
OK, next step is literally that. Once you know he will hold that
dumbbell as long as you want, sitting quietly in front of you, it's
time to have him hold it while walking with you. Just take a few
steps,
if he spits it out, stop walking, pick it up, put it back in and say
NO,
HOLD. This may take a bit more coordination to do while
you're moving around, that's OK. Just be ready for it. Eventually,
you
should be able to walk around with him, call him to you, have
him near other dogs, all while holding that dumbbell. Take a walk
around your favorite park while he's holding it. Have him sit and
wait
while you serve his food while holding it.
This is just a matter of the technique called proofing. Diane Bauman
has one of the best outlines of this process in her book Beyond
Basic Obedience. It goes something like this:
1.Teach a behavior without distractions
2.Add in simple distractions
3.When you teach the next step of the behavior, go back to no
distractions as in step 1.
So teach the hold in a quiet area without other dogs or people
around. Once he is holding the dumbbell quietly sitting in front of
you, then start doing the same thing in different areas. Move from
your kitchen to the backyard, to the front yard, to the local park.
When you ask him to walk at the same time he is holding, return to
the quiet kitchen until he is walking easily with no other
distractions,
then do it in your backyard, front yard, local park, with people,
dogs, etc. If your dog seems to have too much trouble at one stage,
back up and spend some more time in the last stage he did well in.
Each dog will adapt to new changes at different paces.
Further proofing: start using other objects: a bumper, rolled up
socks, a stick, your car keys, an aluminum can, anything that is
safe for him to hold. Also start teaching him to hang onto the item:
tie
a piece of string around the dumbbell and gently pull on it. If he
drops it, say NO and put it back in, just as you have been all
along.
You should get to the point where you can pull him along behind you
with the string. Don't do anything excessive like see if you can
pick
him off the floor and still have him hang on, that's not necessary.
This exercise also especially helps "rollers", dogs who toss their
heads around and mouth the dumbbell.
Different dogs have different limits. I've made it sound like he
will spit it out at every opportunity, every time something changes.
He may or may not. Some dogs will do fine until you ask them to
move and then finally spit it out. Some dogs may never spit it out
again after first doing it when you first put in in his mouth. Some
dogs
may go through stages where they don't spit and then try to. I've
had all kinds.
THE FORCE FETCH
Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I
repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out,
someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for
obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed
avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn
off"
a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete
control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does
require a more astute sense of timing than some other training
methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety
of
reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it's
easily done with a minimum of fuss.
Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and
leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth
as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog's
collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch
the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever
you want) Watch his mouth closely -- the moment he opens his
mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar,
and
PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session.
When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the
next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step
is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch)
necessary
to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that
getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the
ear
pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That's his second
milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times
this
session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5
minutes or so each. That's still true.
Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it.
Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It's not enough
for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to
getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of
limply
reaches over and gets it, that's not what you want. If you pinch him
but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that's not what
you want either. We're back to the visualization. What do you want
him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about
anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you
feel
him pulling out of it to get that. That's his committment. You want
to
say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the
dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him
when he's made a good committment -- this will help shape a speedy
response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an
experienced person around when you are doing this! It can
be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually
sitting there with a dog in your hands.
About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant
he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have
problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough,
or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar may be
needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are
screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by
screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique just fine -- but
not with the behavior you had in mind!
Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the collar.
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch.
You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.
Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold
the
dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull him
back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will do
him
good later.
The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them,
with
your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may refuse --
keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he really
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.
Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.
As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will get control of him (put him in a sit
with a
firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the dumbbell -- he
can
pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his mouth
any
more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.
When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the exercise.
You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or
refuses
to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place the
dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch, force
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and gets
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't
already
dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back where it
was, and pinch him to it.
There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once they
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So
transition
to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet long. With
this
you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the dumbbell,
teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog drops the
dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him try
to
pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb is
that if
he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.
Thoughts to Consider
Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something disgusting
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted
some step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go
back and fix it.
But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any of
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of groceries
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just love
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!
Jerry Howe
"D.Currie" <dmbc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b606...@nntp.prolynx.com...
> > >"Marilyn" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
> Hi Marilyn,
> Since you're familiar with Jerry's method, perhaps you can answer
> the question for him.
I answered your questions. You're not familiar enough with the
methodology to figure it out even when I give you the answer twenty
ways to the middle. You're looking for something that's not there.
That's because there's no force for you to SEE and relate to.
> Or perhaps if you rephrase the question and ask Jerry,
Gee, I could answer the same question no matter HOWE you phrase it.
The ANSWER is, you are being GOAL ORIENTED, which distracts you from
the primary goal of the Method, which is to teach YOU to motivate
your dog to WANT to do everything you ASK, based on the DEFAULTS
instructed in the Method. You are clearly focused only on the
command, not MOTIVATING the dog.
> maybe he can explain it you and perhaps you would be kind
> enough to pass along his answer to me. As I said, I have him
> killfiled :) But I really would like to know the answer to this
question.
No, you don't want an answer to the question, you want to know HOWE
to make your dog do something without studying the text and
understanding the concept.
> Here is the relevent parts of the thread that originally started
the
> discussion:
> Me: >> I saw one dog in an obedience class that had a tough time
> >> with "down." No matter what, the dog wanted to stand or sit
> >> and had a heck of a time getting the idea of laying down.
> >> It simply didn't present the behavior when it was on-leash, and
> >> I can't see how using a sound cue would have caused the dog
> >> to lie down.
> Jerry: >I'd bet a hundred bucks I could have him down in twenty
> minutes. YOU think the hypothetical situation you gave me is
> difficult? Hell NO! <snip>
> Me: Since you didn't seem to like the roll over command,
A command is a command. The Method teaches HOWE to use natural law
to compel your dog to WANT to work for you and do anything you ask
because that is the Nature of the Beast.
> maybe this would be a better example for you.
Maybe you will understand that the command is irrelevant to the
total understanding and implementation of the methodology.
> How, specifically, would you go about teaching the command? The
> situation was that the dog had never been exposed to the *down*
> command prior to this, and he didn't lay down randomly during
> classes.
You follow the method. The methodology does not change for any
command. That's HOWE COME janet boss and steve boyer and the flake
from Norway (not Helle) couldn't see HOWE to teach the commands as
taught under the subject header "the stand" or "the come" command.
The command is NOT the goal, the CONCEPT is the goal. Learn the
concept, and you'll be able to train any dog quickly and easily.
Every command is covered in the methodology which is explained
throughout the manual, not the individual commands. THAT'S WHY you
can't figure out the command. The command is irrelevant.
> The dog preferred standing, but would sit on command. It was a
> friendly dog; not at all mean. It walked nicely on leash. How
would
> you go about getting the dog into the *down* position and teaching
> the command?
When a command is not performed during the command sequence, the
default is to ask the dog to come, which subordinates the dog, and
then he's returned to heel where he's a partner, and then he's asked
again, in the proper manner.
> You said you could do it in 20 minutes, so please tell me the
> specific actions, sounds, words, touches etc. that you would use
to
> get the dog *down* and teach the command.
Motivating the dog to want to do anything we ask must come first.
THEN, we ask a new command, repeat with a sound cue, repeat without
the sound, and repeat again with the sound presented from another
direction. If that fails, we ask the dog to come, return him to
heel, and ask again. The dog will try to work for us, if we don't
try to force him. It's a matter of issuing the commands WITH praise,
properly, and following through with the defaults accordingly, and
WAITING till the dog GIVES.
> So you see the original comment from Jerry was that he could get >
the dog down in 20 minutes,
That's why the extensive time consumption for this command under the
circumstances you describe.
> and I asked him to explain how HE would do it.
I did several times before, and again here, all slightly differently
so you MIGHT be able to figure it out, HAD you read the full text.
I've never been hounded by another student in such a manner (except
by our Thugs here), so I have difficulty believing you actually read
the manual. Your questions belie your assertation that you read the
full text. Perhaps you skipped some of the UNIMPORTANT text, as it
did not pertain to your particular question... in a direct manner.
> With that dog in that situation. It's not a matter of training my
dogs;
Right. This is about training any dog for any behavior. The method
works consistantly well for one and all, provided you understand the
methodology.
> they know this command. It's a question of his method, and how it
> differs (or is similar to) other training methods.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method is not similar to other methods.
> It seemed like a simple enough question but I never got an answer.
That's because you didn't understand the answer. You don't have the
FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING of the method. You couldn't have read or
understood the text. Had you read the text, you'd understand the
nature of your question is NOT answered in the down command, but in
the METHODOLOGY that I've relied on for many years.
> As far as my need to read the manual (which I have, by the way)
That's not evident based on your questions. Your questions clearly
belie your having read the text. You skimmed the text for tidbits,
that's why you got confounded on the down command, for the same
reason janet and steve boyer got confounded on the stand command...
they never read the full text, only the one command, as did the
faker from Norway or Sweden or someplace.
> if I was an observer in that class, and Jerry had his 20 minutes,
I
> wouldn't need to read the manual to watch and listen. that's all
I'm
> asking for.
Sorry Donna, but that's not so. Trainers watching me work without a
detailed narration cannot SEE most of what's going on. Training dogs
is NOT a physical task.
> What would he have done, said, etc.?
I'd have used all of the techniques exactly as taught in the text,
and the METHODOLOGY will DO the work for me.
> So perhaps you can explain how YOU would teach a dog the down
> command in this situation. I assume (perhaps wrongly) that your
> methods are similar.
Marilyn works a little differently than I do, we've got slightly
different goals. I gear my methods towards advanced training,
whereas Marilyn focuses on the family pet.
> Of course, since you didn't make the brag about getting it done in
> 20 minutes,
Marilyn would probably do it in less time, but that's not the point,
that's secondary to making the dog want to work, and employing the
defaults built into my method to INSURE the dog will work as we
would ask.
> that's not necessary. But I would like to know the steps you would
> take, movements. verbal cues, or whatever.
I'd start you off re reading the full text, and answering any
questions you may have about the FUNDAMENTALS, which will bring down
the hammers of HEEL, to make NATURE compell your dog to WANT to do
anything you ask, because your desires and requests as your dogs'
appropriate leader, are the most important consideration to survival
of the pack.
> Thanks,
> Donna
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus <"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Rober Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for
putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
we would not have had to hold the head of a really
magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
behind fake names are more honest than people that use
their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to
just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> admit to buying and having success with his little black
> box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box
first?)
END OF POST
Hello People,
Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a
much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and
prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened
him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former
pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather
HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
Patch
> In article <etm77.18078$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> "Patch"
> <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> >Marshall,
> >
> >The quickest way to get an answer to your question is for you to read the
> >manual itself, dont you think ?
>
> Dear Patch,
>
> Jerry's manual is terribly written. I can't stomach reading much of it.
>
> But if you have read and understood the manual then the quickest way to
"get
> an answer to my question" about training a dog to engage in a chain of
> behaviors might be to ask you!
>
> But sadly, you apparently don't want to share your knowledge of the manual
> with me.
>
> Contrariwise, if you ever have a training question and are interested in
> what an academic behavior analyst might have to say, I'll quickly and
> happily answer it.
>
> Why?
>
> Because the major function of this newsgroup is to help people train their
> dogs and exchange information about dog training.
>
> --Marshall
Which is why I am trying to guide you to overcome your feelings and
reservations, to actually read the whole manual, after which I will more
than happily discuss it with you, from start to finish :-)
Patch
Leah
wrote:
>Which is why I am trying to guide you to overcome your feelings and
>reservations, to actually read the whole manual, after which I will more
>than happily discuss it with you, from start to finish :-)
Patch, why would anybody want to waste their time reading a piece of junk that
the vast majority of those who have read it deem badly written and
contradictory?
Whatever nuggets of "good" information there may be in there, I'm sure there
are other sources that are far more worth the time and trouble to read.
What I can't understand is why you, Jerry, or anybody else who has read the
manual can't discuss any of the specific points in it without insisting that
the entire manual be read. Is it that unclear that you can't pull relevant
points out of it and have a rational discussion about them?
Here's how you do it. Say, "according to Jerry's techniques that are laid out
in the manual, I would snake-proof a dog by..."
Or whatever other questions have been asked.
Why is this so impossible to do?
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Patch
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20010727120944...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> >"Patch" d.guipag...@ntlworld.com
> wrote:
> >Which is why I am trying to guide you to overcome your feelings and
> >reservations, to actually read the whole manual, after which I will more
> >than happily discuss it with you, from start to finish :-)
>
> Patch, why would anybody want to waste their time reading a piece of junk
that
> the vast majority of those who have read it deem badly written and
> contradictory?
To make up their *own* minds ?
>
> Whatever nuggets of "good" information there may be in there, I'm sure
there
> are other sources that are far more worth the time and trouble to read.
So, if there was a book which some didnt like, but others did, would you
listen only to those who didnt like it, or would you make up your *own* mind
by reading it yourself ?
>
> What I can't understand is why you, Jerry, or anybody else who has read
the
> manual can't discuss any of the specific points in it without insisting
that
> the entire manual be read. Is it that unclear that you can't pull
relevant
> points out of it and have a rational discussion about them?
It has to be read for the principles to be understood and applied. To do
otherwise would be like making a cake by only reading a few of the
ingredients instead of the whole recipe.
>
> Here's how you do it. Say, "according to Jerry's techniques that are laid
out
> in the manual, I would snake-proof a dog by..."
>
> Or whatever other questions have been asked.
>
> Why is this so impossible to do?
Its not impossible, however, the best place to find the answers regarding
the manual are *in* the manual.
Patch
HarCo Industries
> In article <bc8b499f.01072...@posting.google.com>,
> tdwi...@earthlink.net (HarCo Industries) wrote:
> >I know, I know, now I have to write "a will not blurt out the answer"
> >on the blackboard a hundred million times.
> >
> >In binary.
>
> Oh, fine, that's easy enough for you -- you'll write it once, then
> cut-and-paste in logarithmic time. And binary's your native lan-
> guage anyway, isn't it?
>
> Let's see, lg(100E6) is what -- somewhere between 16 and 17? (Being
> a meat person, I don't have one of Jack Kilby's wonders immediately
> at hand at all times.) But anyway, you ought to be done with this
> before the rest of us could write our names in squirt-ketchup on the
> back of a Great Pyranees, especially considering that you'll probably
> hand the text expansion off to some peripheral.
Dang. I was hoping Marshall wouldn't notice that part.
>
> So I suggest an alternative punishment: nineteen haikus on grace and
> clumsiness, and the relationship thereof, with the image of an adoles-
> cent Doberman Pinscher trotting across a linoleum floor in pursuit of
> a laser dot as the major subject.
>
> Heh. Heh. Heh.
Eh... can I get the kibolgists too help? We all share the same
HiveMind, you know, and haikus are ever so on-topic to.
Haiku Number 1:
Bark! Get it! Grrif! Grab!
Young black and tan dogs don't know:
It is not bacon.
shelly
<d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
>news:20010727120944...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
>To make up their *own* minds ?
which is what i, for one, have done. i presume that others
who object to Jerry have done the same. it's not some sort
of cabal, yaknow. we *are* capable of making up our own
minds, and many of us have decided that Jerry is a serious
nut case.
>So, if there was a book which some didnt like, but others did, would you
>listen only to those who didnt like it, or would you make up your *own* mind
>by reading it yourself ?
again, that's what people are telling you. they *have* made
up their own minds. apparently that's not good enough for
you, though.
>It has to be read for the principles to be understood and applied. To do
>otherwise would be like making a cake by only reading a few of the
>ingredients instead of the whole recipe.
the same thing goes for reading Koehler and learning about
forced retrieves and e-collars, too.
>> Here's how you do it. Say, "according to Jerry's techniques that are laid
>> out in the manual, I would snake-proof a dog by..."
>>
>> Or whatever other questions have been asked.
>>
>> Why is this so impossible to do?
>
>Its not impossible, however, the best place to find the answers regarding
>the manual are *in* the manual.
and what if those answers are not *in* the manual? there is
nothing in Jerry's manual about snake-proofing. so,
applying Jerry's techniques, how would one snake-proof a
dog?
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
i recommend that Jerry Howe be ignored because he's a
Jenn
> Yeah, that's just a Howe post. I was kind of hoping for something
> credible --
Sorry, couldn't find anything credible (teeheeheeheehee!)
Jenn
Rhino Spice
>In article <JjNY7AeR...@notnetcom.com>, Mark Shaw says...
>
>In article <bc8b499f.01072...@posting.google.com>,
>tdwi...@earthlink.net (HarCo Industries) wrote:
>>
>>Hey, Mark, do you suppose that Patch and the Marilyn went to the same
>>dancing school? Their moves are very similar.
>
>It's really interesting to watch their techniques. Patchy Spice is
>quite a bit more graceful than Maz Spice,
Hey! CITE PLEASE, IF you don't mind!!!!!!
> but of course she does
>stumble now and then.
>
>Were I to grasp desperately for a couple of metaphors, I'd say that
>Patchy Spice is an eel or weasel or some other slippery/slithery
>type of animal for whom the evasory move comes naturally,
Me thinks he's being suggestive Patch :-) ..... hey hey!
unless.... oh, never mind.
> while Maz
>Spice is more like your common drunken clomping rhino.
Excuse ME! I 'never' drink and clomp.....
>Oops, thats a metaphor and a simile. Dang, I hate it when that
>happens.
Hi Mark,
Stick and stones may break my bones,
but words will rarely change me...
AND...... further more, it's no use you keeping up this pretence that you don't
like me...'cos I know you do... just an itzy bitzy wittall bittie-bit, ah :-)
kissy kissy
Maz
P.S. I'm going on a diet tomorrow..... Rhino indeed?!?!?!?!
shelly
<nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>Maz
Satan Spice, get thee back in my kill-file. so much for
your assertions that you aren't rude, obnoxious, and
thoughtless.
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
i recommend that Jerry Howe and Maz be ignored because
they're monumental pains in the arse.
shelly
Industries) wrote:
>Haiku Number 1:
>
>Bark! Get it! Grrif! Grab!
>Young black and tan dogs don't know:
>It is not bacon.
Haiku Number 2:
<sigh> Yet another
Maz Spice addy to kill grrr
Plonkity plonk plonk!