Surgical Sexual Mutilation <{) : ~ ( > A MENTALLY ILL Discussion <{); ~ ) >
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com
: ~ ( >
A MENTALLY ILL Discussion <{); ~
) >
HOWEDY People,
Seein as you DON'T WANT to BELIEVE The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training
Method Manual Student's CASE HISTORY reports, here's
two PROVEN LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN ACTIVE ACUTE
CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES
who'll DO and SAY ANYTHING to DISCREDIT The
Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard.
ENJOY this "UNBIASED" discussion:
Re: Castrating an Adult dog (cost)
"Michael A. Ball" wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:41:28 GMT, Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"Michael A. Ball" wrote:
>
> >> "Why..."? Do you mean, "Why...in addition to all of the universally
> >> recognized and generally understood reasons"?
> >
> >There's a lot of propaganda on the subject in the U.S. IMO it's
> >promulgated as part of an effort to cut down on uninformed
> >breeding. Again IMO, it's fine to try to cut down on uninformed
> >breeding, but this doesn't require surgery. Possession of
> >testicles does not equate to siring puppies.
> >...
> >I personally don't like the personality and learning changes
> >that take place following castration, and the loss of muscle
> >is a problem in canine athletes such as hunting dogs. There
> >are many reasons to keep dogs intact, even here in the U.S.
> >of A. Protection against canine cognitive dysfunction is a
> >biggie.
> >
> >In the case of breeding prospects, of course, since good breeding
> >is selective breeding, and you may not know a dog's potential
> >until it is three, or four, or older, simple selective breeding
> >involves keeping a lot of prospects intact.
> >
> >Amy Dahl
>
> Thank you for writing. I'm not quite ready to apologize; but clearly,
> the general consensus is that I said too much, to an undeserving person.
> I do admit to feeling quite ignorant now. Probably someday, I will be
> thanking you and others in the vanguard of the sensible neutering issue.
Honestly, I'm floored that you even wrote this. We differ so much
on our views of dogs, I don't expect any kind of meeting of minds.
I'll try to respond where appropriate...
> I did a search for the "ill effects of neutering", but there isn't much
> to find. Most of the time, the phrase was preceded by "There are no..."
> During the past seven years of working with the local animal shelter,
> "spay and neuter" has been etched in my brain. Not one time has the ill
> effects of neutering ever been mentioned.
IMO that's a matter of dogmatism on the part of those who promote
spay and neuter. This includes a lot of vets. What they say sounds
like a "party line" but doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. Of
course,
I consider myself a disciplined observer (as a former research
scientist) and as a dog trainer, have made plenty of observations that
contradict the line. That got me started questioning it.
A few years ago I read every scientific study I could relating to
the effects of castration in dogs. In the last couple of very
difficult
years, I lost track of the references as well as my PubMed
subscriber info, so I can't give you the cites but I can tell you a
couple of points I remember.
1. All of the papers supporting "beneficial behavior changes with
castration" had rotten methodology. For the most part, owners
who were told certain changes would occur were then asked if they
observed the changes. I could not find *any* scientific support for
any claimed behavioral benefit.
2. The stuff on canine cognitive dysfunction was compelling.
I think the numbers were around 30-33% of castrated dogs exhibited
two or more symptoms at a clinical level by age nine. Clinical
symptoms
were severe enough to disrupt the dog's adjustment and necessitate
major
management changes by the owners, or euthanasia. Intact males
had an essentially zero rate of canine cognitive dysfunction. The
authors predicted testosterone supplements would be developed
to treat or prevent the condition.
3. The longevity study was done in the U.K. I thought when I
read it the methodology was good. Because castration is not general
there, the sample size of castrated dogs was on the small side, but
statistical tests indicated the effect was significant. It showed
either six or eight months greater life expectancy for intact males.
>
> The general public never questions whether or not any ill effects exist;
> especially since Tennessee state law requires all shelter animals to be
> spayed or neutered. The first time I heard mention of the ill effects,
> that is what I perceived as "propaganda". I do note that some people
> [seemingly hunters] vow that neutering "ruins" dogs. "Ruins" is the word
> they use.
I didn't believe the hunters when I first heard them. I'm pretty
skeptical about stuff I hear in general. But my experience with
intact and castrated dogs has been pretty hard to ignore.
I described the effect on learning in Labradors to my dad, a retired
M.D. (i.e. one who started practicing many years ago). His response
was, "that sounds like the effect of a lobotomy." To be fair, I have
trained three castrated dogs of other breeds that did not seem to
suffer the same loss of learning ability.
> I agree that intact dogs do "not equate to siring puppies". In fact, for
> my pets, that is the least among the reasons. However, it is a very
> serious issue in this little county. Having to kill 150 dogs/puppies
> every week of the year demonstrates the need for spaying/neutering. I
> admit the problem would go away, if the public was more informed, more
> motivated, and more responsible. But it just isn't going to happen.
Is there really a place where, if the dog next door is castrated,
some other roaming intact dog won't be drawn by the scent
of a bitch in heat, and breed her? IOW, does castration have
any physical effect on unwanted breedings, or is it more an
exercise in getting the owner's attitude in line with the idea,
"don't breed your pet"?
> I understand that selective breeding [the only sort of breeding there
> should be, IMHO] necessitates keeping a dog intact. But you state that
> neutering is, "Protection against canine cognitive dysfunction is a
> biggie." That's a powerful, and very important, statement! Can I find
> that in the Merck Veterinary Medicine Handbook, or online at any
> reliable site?
If you have access to the veterinary literature, you should be able to
find the paper I read, and possibly other more recent ones on the
subject. I found it by searching on PubMed.
> Without mandatory spay/neutering for all shelter animals, shelters and
> rescue groups might as well close up. [Most shelters can just barely
> keep up anyway.] And once the public begins to get word that neutering
> is harmful, there will be no stopping them. Shelter employees and
> volunteers are routinely cursed and called filthy names as it is.
I have also heard the opinion that shelters are full of dogs, not
because
of excessive production, but because of lack of retention. Behavior
incompatibilities crop up because of lack of training, poor "fit," or
owner ignorance. Obviously this is the case, but is it more of an
issue than numbers produced? I don't know how to evaluate these
competing hypotheses, but would really like to.
If owners need more support in choosing/training a dog, maybe that
is a place to direct some resources....
Amy Dahl
----------------------------
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE":
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
From: Amy Dahl
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2001 11:52 am
Email: Amy Dahl a...@oakhillkennel.com
Jerry Howe wrote:
> You hurt dogs to train them. That makes some dogs
> aggressive or breaks them from their training, and
> ruins and kills dogs, dahl. You tell us you don't hit
> dogs to train them. What's CHIN CUFF mean, dahl?
>
> What does that 30"-40" Hickory switch do, wave off flies?
>
> No, you beat the Retriever dog to make him "really dig in."
> And then you deny it, and bring up another, less vicious
> beating method you use for "steadying" and try to pass it
> off as the disgusting "stick fetch" you teach, and deny
> teaching it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For any newbies who need info, I have
never written the phrase "chin cuff" in any training advice.
***(Yeah, yeah, yeah... she sez "chin CHUCK", not cuff.
and "digs OUT", not "DIGS IN" to AVOID A BEATIN).
It's something Jerry Howe made up and attributes
to me. Ditto for "hickory switch,"
***(perhaps the choice of matterial is irrelevent? You could
use a Willow switch or a car antenna or riding crop.)
"really dig in," and his allegation that the dog is "beaten"
during steadying. And plenty of other crap, including a
paragraph he falsely attributes to me and has posted literally
thousands of times.
> See your posts about Pudge avoiding the riding
> crop, even when tied and knowing she can't escape it...
Again, Jerry has made up this business of Pudge being
"tied" and not able to escape. I have certainly never
posted saying that, because it's totally untrue.
> > entirely by reward-based training.
> I'd like to know dahl's definition of 'reward based' training.
Food treats and retrieves for rewards, end the session or
withhold the reward if some behavior is to be discouraged.
> What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their
> name for?
They haven't. Labrador retriever, Chesapeake Bay retriever,
golden retriever, flat-coated retriever, curly-coated retriever,
Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever. Not a capital R in the
bunch.
Amy Dahl
---------------------
QUOTED from A.K.C: "The most distinguishing characteristics
of the Labrador Retriever are..."
QUOTED from page 1 at Dog Breed INFO.Com:
14 references: "The Labrador Retriever."
QUOTED from A.K.C.: 8 references page 1 "The Chesapeake Bay Retriever"
QUOTED from Dog Breed INFO.Com: 10 references:
"The Curly Coated Retriever"
QUOTED from A.K.C.: "The Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever (Toller)"
------------------
AIN'T YOU HAD ENOUGH IDIOCY LIES and MALICE???
Subject: Re: Wow.
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote
John and I do get accosted, and have the law called on
us, for things that observers think cruel or inappropriate.
The biggest one is having the dogs on the truck on sunny summer
days. JQPublic doesn't understand the greenhouse effect, or
that our specially designed and constructed, insulated,
ventilated dog box is *not* the same as a car with glass
windows. Other people think training is unnatural, or keeping
dogs in a kennel is cruel. And as you know, we kill birds.
I am grateful that these misinformed do-gooders choose
to act within the law and not outside it. I worry about
animal-rights nuts and other self-righteous vigilante types
acting on the same impulses. People have a right to be
ignorant, and they have a right to be offensive, but I hope
they always stop short of stealing our customers' dogs.
I cannot fail to see someone who advocates theft as a first
course of action as a threat. How can people of diverse
opinions live together, and make a living, if the business of
imposing your will at your neighbor's expense, in disregard
of the law, catches on?
I never gave Leah much credit for supposed good
intentions either. Actions count.
Judith's getting angry at me or not liking
my posts isn't a factor.
> As for Shasta, the same. You have my sympathies, and
> I wouldn't even think to judge on what is Right or Wrong.
I figured as much. I didn't feel criticized; just like
discussing your statement.
Amy Dahl
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!