I've finally read Koehler...
DogStar716
A friend of the other trainer at Petsmart who has been into GSD's for years and
if finally getting out donated a HUGE library of books. Wonderful books about
GSD's (boy they sure looked different in the early years), and other books.
One of them was the Koehler Method of Dog Training. Having never read it, just
heard about it, I snatched it up.
Well, everything people have been saying for the last few years regarding
Koehlers rough methods for dogs is true, and it is NOT just for aggressive
dogs! He recommends hanging for leash chewing, taping objects in the dogs
mouth for chewers, shooting BB's from a sling shot at the dog for dogs who
bolt, and the famous filling the hole with water and shoving the dogs head in
for digging.
Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least. And you
cannot tell me that his extreme methods are for dogs with extreme behavior.
All of the above behaviors are normal and can easily be remedied without
physical harm.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
BethF
--
--Beth, Pseudo usenet cop
Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike
Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy)
Anchorage, Alaska
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020116134453...@mb-cg.aol.com...
shelly
"BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:u4bj5qm...@corp.supernews.com...
> Who is a koehler fan?
Ron's the only one i can think of.
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
Gwen Watson
shelly wrote:
Figures.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> and I am laughing my butt off, although I am also appalled.
>
Applaud was my reaction when I scanned through the book. I would
never consider using a single one of the methods he advocated. But
I didn't laugh as I felt it was horrible that his methods were published
for the General "novice" Public to use on their dogs.:(
Then again weren't most of these books written back in
the 60-70's?
Personally I think it is a sign of the times. People used
to beat the heck out of their kids all the time and
it was perfectly acceptable behavior. No longer
is beating your child condoned.
Gwen
Jerry Howe
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020116134453...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> and I am laughing my butt off, although I am also appalled.
Welcome to Wits' End Dog Training SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS.
> A friend of the other trainer at Petsmart who has been into GSD's for
years
> and if finally getting out donated a HUGE library of books. Wonderful
books
> about GSD's (boy they sure looked different in the early years), and
other
> books.
> One of them was the Koehler Method of Dog Training. Having never read
it,
> just heard about it, I snatched it up.
An excellent choice. Our friend ed w of petloss dot CON recommends we
read koehler and decide for ourselves. Our friends lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn, lying frosty dahl, cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon of our illustrious faqs page at k-9 web, lyingdogDUMMY, ron
hardin, fraudreck of internet radio "sit means sit" shock collar
training, diane blackman, and professor of analytical behaviorism from U
of WI lying doc "scruff shake and scream NO into ITS face for 5 seconds
dermer and his asholesicate dr p., ann twzl, professora "chin CHUCK
absolutely doesn't mean slap" gingold, and many many moore of our dog
lovers and regular contributors here, are indeed, DEVOUT, COMITTED,
koehler TRAINERS who will do and say ANYTHING to DEFEND their beloved
koehler methods.
See the "Saga Of Annie." Poor dog. Even our koehler fans told ron h to
give up on the method as it wasn't working. ron tried using sound
distraction and praise, and CURED his heeling problem in MOMENTS.
Unfortunately he didn't learn his lesson, the technique worked
COINCIDENTALLY because ronnie couldn't undersand the concept of praising
a command instantly. FORTUNATELY, Annie responded so quickly to the
sound distraction that the praise for completing the command coincided
with his "correction," and it worked pretty much as I teach it in your
FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.
> Well, everything people have been saying for the last few years
regarding
> Koehlers rough methods for dogs is true, and it is NOT just for
aggressive
> dogs!
Exactly. In fact, the koehler method and its proponents here DEMANDS
that the method be STRICTLY FOLLOWED, as ANY deviation from the method
will leave opportunities for the entire method to fall apart, and the
dog WILL TURN on his trainers or attack other "lower ranking" family
pack members and visitors to the "den," as happend to Robert Crim when
he NEEDED to KILL his Wonder Dog Fritz.
That's when Robert discovered the truths taught in your FREE copy of my
FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com . Just ask me for help if you need any.
> He recommends hanging for leash chewing,
Yeah, and for lots of other behavior problems. I've taken the entire
trillogy of koehler books on three occasions to discuss the method page
by page with our "experts" here, to no availe. lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn couldn't even find the chapter on HANGING in her own copy of
koehler sitting in her lap.
I'll be thrilled to provide original posts with headers of our dog
abusers defense of the koehler methods over the past three years I've
been trying to teach INTELLIGENT dog training method here on rpdb.
> taping objects in the dogs mouth for chewers, shooting BB's from a
sling shot
> at the dog for dogs who bolt,
Your pals lying frosty dahl and company use slingshots for training, and
then DENIED they use it to physically CORRECT the dog for such behaviors
as fence jumping, bolting, barking, whatever. The method MEANS HURT the
dog, and KILL IT if IT objects to the training and HANGING doesn't work.
The blame is then laid on BAD BREEDING, or the handler is accused of NOT
being forceful enough, a la our alpha training philosophy.
YUP. That means our so called alpha dominance trainers are indeed,
koehler method fans. The sick thinking that appeals to our dog lovers is
the same sick thinking that tells our dog training experts to "treat
your dog like a dog," according to alpha pack VICIOUSNESS.
Clearly there is no room in developing a RELATIONSHIP with our dogs for
dominance methods, because dogs have bigger teeth, and when you combine
that with a dog too tall to HANG when you're standing on your tippie
toes, YOU'RE DEAD MEAT.
That's HOWE come mr koehler recommends hanging the giant breed dogs from
a "ceiling hitch or something" like a handy tree limb or door, and in
emergency situations by throwing the dog over your shoulder and HANGING
the dog over your back, till "his eyes roll back, his tongue turns thick
and blue and falls out the sided of ITS mouth, and when you put him back
on the ground, IT should stagger to its feet and PUKE, or you didn't
freakin HANG IT PROPERLY and will NEED to do it again when the dog once
moore, challenges your AUTHORITY.
> and the famous filling the hole with water and shoving the dogs head
in
> for digging.
That is on our illustrious faqs page at k-9 web authored by cindy "don't
let the dog SCREAM" mooreon. This practice has been called vicious,
worthless and cruel by dr karen overall of the UofPA, the behaviorist
unsuccessfully treating our melanie chang's dog solo, despite that they
rely on many of the alphalpha dominance tactics taught in the body of
the wondrous koehler method classics.
That dichotomy is referred to here among our koehler fans as not being a
traditional koehler trainer, in that the "trainer" deviates from the
method, a strict warning to one and all NOT to mix methods as the
INCONSISTANCY provokes CHALLENGES to our authority. For that reason our
dog lovers here who rely on shock and pronged spiked pinch choke collar
fans consider themselves NOT to be strict koehler trainers, but
KOEHLERESQUE.
Look it up in the archives... kinda rolls right off of your tongue,
doesn't it? KOEHLERESQUE. Give that a little thought when you picture
your dog puking his guts out and gasping for air after you've HUNG him
for snapping when you've jerked and choked and chin CHUCKED him.
> Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least.
You know what that means. Means you're gonna get KILLFILED. They'll be
putting ninnyboy in the subject header and telling us to snip pertinent
text from your posts. candace will probably automatically respond to
your post with the automated instructons defending koheler trainers
here, telling folks that I am lying about your epiphany, dogstar. Keep
it up, and you may find yourself like Robert Crim did, when I taught him
that EVERYTHING he'd been taught about dog training and behavor is DEAD
WRONG, attested to by his DEAD DOG Fritz.
> And you cannot tell me that his extreme methods are for dogs with
extreme
> behavior.
EXACTLY. The METHOD STRONGLY WARNS precluding deviation from the method
WILL PROVOKE the dog to challenge our AUTHORITY.
SO, when our experts say they don't use THOSE portions of the method,
just ask them what they DO when the dog NEEDS to challenge authority? Do
they just KILL IT to be FAIR as janet boss teaches?
> All of the above behaviors are normal and can easily be remedied
without
> physical harm.
INDEED.
But those training methods do no harm, dogstar. That's HOWE COME our
"expert dog lovers" have dedicated themselves to KILLFILING JERRY and
DISINFORMATION campains.
> Dogstar716
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
Let's get on the stick people. Jerry's not going to be here forever,
just two moore years, and then I'm OUTTA HERE.
Good LUCK. JERRY.
Jerry Howe
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:a24iiq$udtrh$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
> news:u4bj5qm...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Who is a koehler fan?
> Ron's the only one i can think of.
> shelly and elliott & harriet
yeah...just ron.
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for
putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
we would not have had to hold the head of a really
magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
behind fake names are more honest than people that use
their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to
just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> admit to buying and having success with his little black
> box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box
first?)
Hello People,
Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and
hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a
long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry
came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard
way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is
just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and
KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
DogStar716
>for the General "novice" Public to use on their dogs.:(
I recall Dogman was a big Koehler fan, and he always told me to read the book
before I condemned the guy. Well......
In his introduction he says, and I quote..
"This book differs from others in two ways: it openly acknowledges that not all
dogs "want to please", and that some are even visciously resentful of efforts
to train them"
Ha. If I were a dog trained by him, I might be visciously resentful too.
BTW, it says in the books that he trained the three animals in the original
Incredible Journey movie. Yikes.
He also talks about how even a 90 year old granny can wrestle a huge dog into
the water dunking hole. Yeah.
Jerry Howe
Have you attended your medical grade thirty five level of static like
stimulation collar seminar yet, gwen honey? Remember when you said I
had some good ideas and asked me to be NICE to your pals here?
You seem to have FORGOT our friend ed w of petloss dot CON recommends we
"read koehler and decide for ourselves." Your pals lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn, lying frosty dahl, diane blackman of dogplay, professor
of analytical behaviorism from U of WI professor lying doc "scruff shake
and scream NO into ITS face" dermer and his university head of
department asholesicate dr p., cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon
of our illustrious faqs page at k-9 web, lyingdogDUMMY, ron hardin,
fraudreck of internet radio "sit means sit" shock collar training, ann
twzl, professora "chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't
mean slap" gingold, and many many moore of our dog lovers and regular
contributors here, are indeed, DEVOUT, COMMITTED, koehler TRAINERS who
will do and say ANYTHING to DEFEND their beloved koehler methods.
Just ask marquis de "read koehler For Content" shaw and eddie w of
petloss dot con.
That's about a dozen, not counting the ones below:
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C45CF8C...@ig.utexas.edu...
> shelly wrote:
>
> > "BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
> > news:u4bj5qm...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Who is a koehler fan?
> > Ron's the only one i can think of.
> > shelly and elliott & harriet
> Figures.
> Gwen
Jerry Howe
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C45CF60...@ig.utexas.edu...
> DogStar716 wrote:
> > and I am laughing my butt off, although I am also appalled.
> Applaud was my reaction when I scanned through the book.
Your pal ed w of petloss dot CON recommends we read our koehler, as
do the rest of your pals here, gwen honey.
> I would never consider using a single one of the methods he advocated.
Of course not gwen honey!!! Have you attended your shock collar seminar
yet, gwen honey? Hmm? janet boss was looking forward to getting one for
Xmas, gwen honey.
> But I didn't laugh as I felt it was horrible that his methods were
published
> for the General "novice" Public to use on their dogs.:(
Well, why haven't you spoken up here when we've discussed koehler
methods for the past three years, gwen honey?
> Then again weren't most of these books written back in
> the 60-70's?
Or this mornin, gwen honey. That's HOWE come your pals tell folks to
killfile Jerry, cause Jerry's an industry insider whistle blower...
> Personally I think it is a sign of the times.
You on the same forum I'm readin, gwen honey?
> People used to beat the heck out of their kids all the time and
> it was perfectly acceptable behavior.
You think so, gwen honey? My Mrs. raised two beautiful young ladies
without ever laying a hand on them or punishing them.
> No longer is beating your child condoned.
Like nobody uses the koehler method her, gwen honey?
> Gwen
Figures... Jerry.
Jerry Howe
> Gwen
Here's a couple quotes from your dog abusing lying Thug pal lying frosty
dahl and company:
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There
Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything
But Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by
making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl
who continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained
require much more frequent and heavy application of
pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the
job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it
yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to
striking them more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the
buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the
ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting
your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it catches
on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to
beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,
and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck
it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting
tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine.
> > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > want to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
for her and her family.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
(an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
or using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Ron Hardin
> Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least.
I like him. He has a part in the introduction where he weeds out the humaniacs,
that perhaps you skipped. There is a trace of what his vision of a dog is
there too, which is fairly complimentary to the dog.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Bethgsd
you tried his ideas for correcting problem behaviors. He stated that often
these problems go away once the dog has been trained.
Beth
Alpha
in dog training and dogs were nothing more than a tool, this was all the way
through the dog world even breeders, if it doesn't work kill it.
Thankfully over time folks have realised there is a better way to train your
dog but some of williams stuff is still relevant just take out the
violence...Alpha
--
Treat your dog like a dog
DogStar716 <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020116134453...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
insider WHISTLE BLOWER.
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020116184344...@mb-ch.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
"Bethgsd" <bet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020116202129...@mb-fw.aol.com...
> A thing in Koehler's defense was that he recommended training your dog
> before you tried his ideas for correcting problem behaviors.
The entire koehler method is based on HURTING and INTIMIDATING dogs.
Your pal lostinspace666 said:
Well, everything people have been saying for the last few years
regarding
Koehlers rough methods for dogs is true, and it is NOT just for
aggressive
dogs! He recommends hanging for leash chewing, taping objects in the
dogs
mouth for chewers, shooting BB's from a sling shot at the dog for dogs
who
bolt, and the famous filling the hole with water and shoving the dogs
head in
for digging.
Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least. And
you
cannot tell me that his extreme methods are for dogs with extreme
behavior.
All of the above behaviors are normal and can easily be remedied without
physical harm.
> He stated that often these problems go away once the dog has been
trained.
Because the dog is probably gonna be DEAD. Like Fritz.
> Beth
Jerry Howe
"Alpha" <swee...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Efq18.73553$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Dogstar look at the period it was written, back then this guy was a
legend
> in dog training
Yeah. His book was BANNED in the State of Arizona. Curiously, Arizona is
the only CONUS that allows running Grey Hound dogs on live Jack rabbits,
like you wanted to do last week to make your puppy man aggressive... ya
animal
abusing fruitcake.
> and dogs were nothing more than a tool,
Hmm. Semantics, dumbo. My dogs are little moore than tools to me in my
protection work.
> this was all the way through the dog world even breeders,
And kindly petloss dot CON ed w and kindly rescue folks like lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and experts like cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon and lying frosty dahl and lyingdogDUMMY and professor "scruff
shake and scream NO into ITS face for 5 seconds" dermer and diane
blackman and professora "chin CHUCK doesn't mean slap the dog" gingold,
and fraudreck, our medical grade thirty five levels of static like
stimulation device salesman... and YOU alpo.
> if it doesn't work kill it.
Like Fritz, Sampson, Summer, "interested in hearing" "my dog bit a kid"
"my golden retrieve bit the ups driver" and the rest of the DEAD DOGS
your pals have entertained to DEATH here?
> Thankfully over time folks have realised there is a better way to
train your dog
And you call my students liars, paid shills for Jerry, and animal
fuckers, alphalpha.
> but some of williams
Isn't that cunnin? Soup lovingly refers to the monster as billie.
> stuff is still relevant
EXACTLY, alphalpah.
> just take out the violence...
Then there is no book, alphalpha.
> Alpha
The problem with billie's work is that he sets the stage using decevious
psycholocical tactics to justify HURTING the dog based on his warped
thinking. He's a master of deception, and fearful Thugs like YOU enjoy
the opportunity to defend yourself from losing your AUTHORITY. And
anybody stupid enough to follow his thinking and do what he teaches
doesn't have the intellectual ability to see beyond the FEAR he relies
on to make ordinarily decent human beings justify doing atrocious things
to their dogs, based only on his fear and hatred of initiative and
independence in the dog.
> Treat your dog like a dog
That's HOWE come our experts tell us to READ koehler first, believing
that he'll con us into believing dogs NEED to be HURT like you do, alpo.
Get off of our forum. We don't need dog abusers here tellin people to
hurt and kill our dogs.
Bye alphalpha. j;~)
Jerry Howe
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C4625...@mindspring.com...
> DogStar716 wrote:
> > Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least.
> I like him.
You also enjoy HURTING Annie.
> He has a part in the introduction where he weeds out the humaniacs,
You mean people with enough sense not to HURT dogs and expect they're
gonna LOVE them for it?
> that perhaps you skipped.
Even had she read that part, the hanging and beating parts is still
there.
> There is a trace of what his vision of a dog is
> there too, which is fairly complimentary to the dog.
Isn't that special?
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Stick around, I'll prove it to everyone's satisfaction that you can tell
even on the net, that koehler trainers are jerks and should be banned
from human society. I'll be looking forward to testifying for the
prosecution of some of our dog lovers in criminal court for animal
abuse...
Here's the hole digging cure. This same tactic is taught by
cindymooreon, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn at their shelters, and lying
frosty dahl... and much,
much moore. j;~}
From: Dogman (dog...@i1.net)
Date: 1997/11/01
On a cold day in Hell, 31 Oct 1997 23:50:55 GMT, dogp...@aol.com
(Dogpsych) wrote:
[...]
>Koehler's Usefulness: Digging
>If you come home and find your dog has dug a hole, fill the hole
> brimful of water. With the training collar and leash, bring the dog
> to the hole and shove his nose into the water; hold him there until
> he is sure he's drowning.
> If your dog is of any size, you may get all of the action of a cowboy
> bull-dogging a steer. Stay with it. I've had elderly ladies who'd
> had their fill of ruined flower beds dunk some mighty big dogs.
> A great many dogs will associate this horrible experience with the
> hole they dug. It is not necessary to *catch the dog in the act* in
> any of the above instances of correction. Be consistent in your
> corrections and your dog will come to find the smell of
> freshly dug earth quite repugnant.
I LOVE this one. It's VERY effective, it absolutely doesn't interfere
in your relationship with your dog, and is EASY and QUICK to do. And
it can be really funny to watch. Yes, there are other methods that
work, for example the stake-in-the- ground method that Koehler also
describes, balloons in the water, etc.
The point here is that you have a CHOICE. If your flowers, yard,
etc., are no big deal to you, don't even worry about it. Live with
the destruction, give him an area of his own to "destroy," etc.
Whatever. But if you're one of those people who spends a lot of time
and MONEY on your landscaping and grounds, give it a try. It works!
No, there is no reason for you to "drown" your dog! Hyperbole is just
that. Hyperbole! Don't let it cloud your common sense.
Usually within seconds, the dog will start to struggle. That's what
you want him to do: THINK he is about to drown, not actually drown.
Hold him there for another few seconds and then release him. And I've
never known of a dog to even attempt to bite during this procedure.
Normally they'll just shake it off and start AVOIDING ANY HOLES --
almost immediately.
Now folks, what's the worst thing that happened to this dog? Was it
injured in any way? Absolutely not. Was he startled? Absolutely.
That's what AVERSIVES are supposed to do. This procedure works
in the same way that snake-proofing a dog with an electronic collar
works. Or to prevent dogs from chasing deer, etc. And if you think
you can make your dog, say, avoid POISONOUS snakes using only
positive reinforce, I've got some beach-front property in Kansas I can
sell you cheap.
Are flowers and backyards a matter of life and death. Probably not --
unless the dog ends up at the vet's because of it. But SOME people,
unable to otherwise "cure" this hole-digging, will simply take their
dog to the vet's to be euthanized. Don't believe that? Go down to
your shelter or rescue group and ASK them the reasons that people turn
in dogs. Maybe YOU wouldn't do it, but a lot of folks would. There
aren't approximately 5 million dogs put to death each year (in the US
alone) for no reason, are there?
So folks, yes...YOU decide for yourself. If this seems "cruel" to
you, just don't do it. But don't think about getting an abortion,
either.
>Who is cruel to a dog, is more cruel thereby to his own soul.
> --Will Judy
Whosoever refuses to punish a dog for behavior that can get it KILLED
has no heart whatsoever and will go straight to hell.
--Dogman
>"So grab the line and give him about 5 minutes of the hardest tanning
> you can administer. Use a belt heavy enough to make him really feel
your
> efforts."
> --William Koehler
And here's the koehler method psychology at work to justify what he
does:
In September, 1993, Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse with
thirteen years of experience, was assigned by her nursing agency to an
abortion clinic. Since Nurse Shafer considered herself "very
pro-choice," she didn't think this assignment would be a problem. She
was wrong. This is what Nurse Shafer saw:
"I stood at the doctor's side and watched him perform a partial-birth
abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant. The baby's heartbeat
was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. The doctor delivered the
baby's body and arms, everything but his little head. The baby's body
was moving. His little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking
his feet. The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into
the back of the baby's head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a
flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he
might fall. Then the doctor opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the
high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby's brains
out. Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the
clinic. But I am still haunted by the face of that little boy. It was
the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen."
The partial-birth abortion procedure is used after 20 weeks (4 1/2
months) of pregnancy -- often to six months, seven months, and even
later. The difference between partial-birth abortion and homicide is a
mere three inches...
Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with
forceps.
The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body except for the head.
The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are
then opened to enlarge the hole.
A suction tube is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing
the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
__
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
Susan Fraser Matthews
just
> Sorry all you Koehler fans, but I am not impressed in the least.
I wasn't going to post about my world spinning a bit just now, but since YOU
brought this subject up... ;->
Beginning in 1980, while doing field trials with my golden Justice, I
obedience trained with a Koehler protégée. I only took Justice in the
licensed OB ring twice, but his scores were in the way upper 190's. Justice
was precise, animated, and super-stylish (for the times - we didn't do
attention heeling). (FWIW, I've never had much of an opinion about Koehler's
problem behavior techniques because I've never had a dog with problem
behavior ;->) But Koehler's obedience *training* techniques were state of
the art for the time and got excellent results. I did not consider them
harsh at all back then. (With a willing dog, I seldom had to correct, and
Koehler was REALLY big on praise, too, yanno).
Anyway, fast forward almost 20 years, to about three years ago. While doing
hunt tests with Shammie and SheBop, I started OB training with a
motivational trainer. Julie is beholden to no one particular "guru" but
stays open-minded and goes to seminars and reads and studies and tailors
methods to the dog and to what works. We use treats and play as primary
reinforcers, condition and apply markers correctly, and work on all levels
of competition obedience simultaneously. I don't even say "no" anymore
(O.K. I lie, that's a really hard habit to break!). Sham *loves* every
minute of it. Even SheBop likes it.
So this week-end we went to a match put on by my old OB club, a club that
has deep roots from way back when in traditional methods. I was able to sit
back and compare my new trainer's students to the traditional trainers'.
WOW!
I could tell before the handler even set the dog up what kind of training
methods they used. Tail carriage, animation, stress levels of both dog and
handler - it was crystal clear. I wish I had videos of me and Justice way
back then to see if we looked like that - I just don't remember it that way.
Either everyone nowadays is doing Koehler wrong, or the old jerk and praise
correction-based training has truly gone the way of the buffalo.
I really thought what I would see in a head to head comparison of good
trainers with good timing would be very similar regardless of the method
used. I always thought Koehler techniques were fair because they stressed
that the dog understand what was expected. I was wrong. Ron can talk
citizenship all he wants to - what I saw was robotic methodical behavior
chains, along with a squelching of individual personality. I saw all the mat
sniffing and yawning and turning the head to avoid eye contact in a
different light, and I was really shocked.
---
Susan Fraser, owned and trained by
HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH, and
HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong MH **
DogStar716
>humaniacs,
He's a loon.
His advice for a dog who messes in the house: "Punish him by spanking him with
a light strap or switch" (this is after you show him his mess).
Or, you can do this: "An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving
the dog a hard spanking, of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess
he's made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again
for the same thing."
He also advocates putting food on a charged electrical wire to teach the dog
not to eat poison. Dog licks the food and gets zapped. You can also use that
tactic for dogs who like to pull laundry off the line.
Sorry to rant, but this book is beyond what I thought it was...
> There is a trace of what his vision of a dog is
>there too, which is fairly complimentary to the dog.
So, the fact that he does say in his book that of course you should praise the
dog makes everything all right? Not in my book.
DogStar716
I am fully aware of when it was written. I have heard all about Koehler, I
have just never read the actual book myself.
Now I have and I am just commenting :)
DogStar716
>you tried his ideas for correcting problem behaviors.
Training and behavior problems are often not even related.
For example, you can have the best obedience dog in the world, who likes to dig
holes. Just because he's trained doesn't mean he isn't going to dig. I see
nothing in Koehlers book that tells you the "correct" way to train a dog not to
dig before you try the drowning method.
DogStar716
>back then to see if we looked like that - I just don't remember it that way.
Isn't it amazing? I trained my Dane using traditional methods, and my GSD
using reward based training, and my GSD is much happier to work than my Dane
ever was. And I am way less stressed.
Joanne
It would only take a glimmer of the sadistic thinking this man is being
quoted as having written for me to discount EVERYTHING else he has to
offer. These concepts come from a really sick individual with no
respect for the sensitivity of an animal.
It would be difficult to respect anyone who can discount these cruel
techniques as well.
--
Sincerely,
Joanne
If it's right for you, then it's right, . . . . . for you!!!
Play - http://www.jobird.com
Pay for Play - http://www.jobird.com/refund.htm
Looking for Love? - http://www.jobird.com/hearts.htm
Jerry Howe
You're beginning to sound like Jerry... And you know what? It's about
time somebody had...
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117002259...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
The drowning technique is taught by cindy "don't let the dog scream"
mooreon on our faqs page at k9web that our professor scruff shake and
scream NO into its face for 5 seconds dermer and blackman and ludwig and
lying frosty dahl and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn recommend.
When I tell you they're not using their HEELING STICK to do anything
other than beat their dogs, I ain't lying, I've been in this business
forty years...
That's HOWE COME the killfile Jerry campaigns...
Any koehler fan NEEDS to dominate intimidate and hurt dogs to do so.
That's the METHOD.
And then you wonder HOWE COME our petloss conseller ed w and roo and
dermer and everybody else is telling people to killfile Jerry and read
koehler...
You can't use the koehler method without undue force and intimidation.
Jerry.
"Joanne" <Joa...@jobird.com> wrote in message
news:3C46633C...@jobird.com...
Jerry Howe
behavior problem or even a mistake. My FREE Wits' End Dog Training
Method dogs work like MAGICK... j;~)
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117003444...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Ron Hardin
> It would only take a glimmer of the sadistic thinking this man is being
> quoted as having written for me to discount EVERYTHING else he has to
> offer. These concepts come from a really sick individual with no
> respect for the sensitivity of an animal.
You're feeling you'd never be able to pull anything on him, perhaps?
That emotional appeals will no longer work is the point of the first
week. The dog learns it but you don't, being a woman with a vote.
Dog as suffering helpless fluff is not Koehler's idea, though it's very
popular with every politcal fringe group as a guiding principle and
probably most women.
That there might be some _consequence_ to picking up a hot dog found
on the ground is too much to bear.
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> "This book differs from others in two ways: it openly acknowledges that not all
> dogs "want to please", and that some are even visciously resentful of efforts
> to train them"
>
Again part of the era, IMHO. Parents whimping the heck out of the
kids for looking cross-ways. Schools whimping the heck out of kids
for being kids and dog trainers using methods as described. Not
to mention, the Schutzhund camp in that era truly believed in
isolation unless it was time to train. Otherwise dogs were to be
left in kennel and never interaction with other dogs or most
other people except on training fields. Thankfully these
things are changing rapidly and I think we can thank *women*
for entering the dog training world for many of these more
humane changes. JMO
>
> Ha. If I were a dog trained by him, I might be visciously resentful too.
No doubt.
>
>
> BTW, it says in the books that he trained the three animals in the original
> Incredible Journey movie. Yikes.
I had heard he trained for Disney animals years ago. So I am sure
this is true. Kind saddens me to think of that Lab trained by him.:(
But actually all the animals. I wonder what he did to the poor
Siamese cat? Shudder, I don't even want to go there and ponder it.
>
>
> He also talks about how even a 90 year old granny can wrestle a huge dog into
> the water dunking hole. Yeah.
Yeah right. A 90 year old women that has been wrestling all her
life maybe. Tip top shape.
>
>
> Dogstar716
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
From what I have read of his material, I would lay odds that
he was an abused child, from a very abusive staunch
family.
Gwen
Jerry Howe
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C46A6...@mindspring.com...
> Joanne wrote:
> > It would only take a glimmer of the sadistic thinking this man is
being
> > quoted as having written for me to discount EVERYTHING else he has
to
> > offer. These concepts come from a really sick individual with no
> > respect for the sensitivity of an animal.
> You're feeling you'd never be able to pull anything on him, perhaps?
Excuse me ronnie? What the heel are you talkin about? Pull WHAT
on WHOM? The lady sez the very fundamental thinking of anyone
so sick as to do what you've done to your dog in the Saga Of Annie
can only be accomplished by an unthinking, unfeeling, self centered
SADIST... and there couldn't be any logic or rational to the entirely
brutal, vicious, mad koehler method.
> That emotional appeals will no longer work is the point of the first
week.
You mean when your dog screams you get used to it, ronnie?
Or do you mean "don't let the dog SCREAM" as our friend
cindy mooreon of our illustrious faqs page at k9 web sez?
"In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine.
> The dog learns it but you don't, being a woman with a vote.
I'm a pretty bad dude, ronnie. I don't hurt dogs or any animal to
train them. I've got nearly forty years specializing in rehabilitating
koehler trained dogs, mostly Danes and English Mastiffs, but plenty
of Dobes and GSD's and every other working breed. I've been
crippled for a couple months because of some monster like you
beatin my Dane till he awoke at nite screaming in nightmares.
That's HOWE come I'm so MEAN to you bums.
> Dog as suffering helpless fluff is not Koehler's idea,
You HURT dogs to train them ronnie, and KILL dogs you can't HURT
ENOUGH to make them RESPECT your AUTHORITY... ronnie. You're
a eunich.
> though it's very popular with every politcal fringe group as a
> guiding principle and probably most women.
I'm no woman and I'm no punk, ronnie... I train K-9's and carry guns
and chew tobacco and swallow the juice just like I learned to in
the US Army Special Forces when we were workin and couldn't smoke.
> That there might be some _consequence_ to picking up a hot dog found
> on the ground is too much to bear.
You mean like EATIN POO? You saw Marty and Paul end that problem
in a few minutes over a couple of days without hurting nobody. You bums
told them to killfile Jerry and disregard my fraudulent methods...
Why HURT the dog when I teach faster, moore effective, non force, non
confrontational, scientific and psychological non physical methods of
training any animal to naturally WANT to do everything we ask, if you
know HOWE?
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS.
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Ask Fritz. Your pal Jerry.
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
Robert Crim writes:
>Terri
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Jerry Howe
> That there might be some _consequence_ to picking up a hot dog found
> on the ground is too much to bear.
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
Oh, bye the bye ronnie, I FORGOT SOMETHIN
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Or a dog abuser and liar:
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
> > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > want to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
for her and her family.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
(an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
or using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Here's a couple quotes from your dog abusing lying Thug pal lying frosty
dahl:
j;~)
Gwen Watson
Susan Fraser Matthews wrote:
> what I saw was robotic methodical behavior
> chains, along with a squelching of individual personality. I saw all the mat
> sniffing and yawning and turning the head to avoid eye contact in a
> different light, and I was really shocked.
>
> ---
> Susan Fraser, owned and trained by
> HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH, and
> HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong MH **
Indeed. Great post.
Gwen
Ron Hardin
> Again part of the era, IMHO. Parents whimping the heck out of the
> kids for looking cross-ways. Schools whimping the heck out of kids
> for being kids and dog trainers using methods as described. Not
> to mention, the Schutzhund camp in that era truly believed in
> isolation unless it was time to train. Otherwise dogs were to be
> left in kennel and never interaction with other dogs or most
> other people except on training fields. Thankfully these
> things are changing rapidly and I think we can thank *women*
> for entering the dog training world for many of these more
> humane changes. JMO
I agree that women are responsible for it. On the other hand men
train in the way that makes sense to them; women have taken over
all the terrain, which should not have happened.
Koehler isolates the (beginning) dog for a few hours so that the
training session is made more attractive, as ``doing something.''
Schutzhund is off on their own if making it continuous.
Koehler wants the dog to be around the house and possibly Schutzhund
does not.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
Ron Hardin
> I had heard he trained for Disney animals years ago. So I am sure
> this is true. Kind saddens me to think of that Lab trained by him.:(
> But actually all the animals. I wonder what he did to the poor
> Siamese cat? Shudder, I don't even want to go there and ponder it.
His Disney stuff seems unremarkable to me - I could do it, but then
I've learned from his books. He did write a book about it all however,
which possibly you could find in a library; I mean the Disney
adventures are in a book, including the Siamese cat no doubt though
I don't remember it. I remember his training a wolverine, a nice
exercise for you to try.
Gwen Watson
Joanne wrote:It would be difficult to respect anyone who can discount these cruel
> techniques as well.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Joanne
>
These cruel techniques were used on children as well.:(
I am curious if anyone on this board knows, was
Koehler born in Germany? Most of his methods
seem very much like "old German" methods
of training.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> Isn't it amazing? I trained my Dane using traditional methods, and my GSD
> using reward based training, and my GSD is much happier to work than my Dane
> ever was. And I am way less stressed.
>
> Dogstar716
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
Indeed. Try some of Joanne Flemming Plumbs videos. She is fabulous
in my book.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> >I like him. He has a part in the introduction where he weeds out the
> >humaniacs,
>
> He's a loon.
>
No, he was typical of how things were done in those times.
No wonder there was a generation of rebels in the 60's-70's
because this type of thought was included in child rearing as
well.
I would not call him a loon, since his methods
fit the times, but definitely he was not humane.
Gwen
Jerry Howe
koehler method REMEMBER?
I've never called you a liar ronnie, just a brutal dog abuser so don't
make me start now. Jerry.
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C46DC...@mindspring.com...
Jerry Howe
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C46DB...@mindspring.com...
> Gwen Watson wrote:
> > Again part of the era, IMHO. Parents whimping the heck out of the
> > kids for looking cross-ways. Schools whimping the heck out of kids
> > for being kids and dog trainers using methods as described. Not
> > to mention, the Schutzhund camp in that era truly believed in
> > isolation unless it was time to train. Otherwise dogs were to be
> > left in kennel and never interaction with other dogs or most
> > other people except on training fields. Thankfully these
> > things are changing rapidly and I think we can thank *women*
> > for entering the dog training world for many of these more
> > humane changes. JMO
Seems gwen honey forgot she's lookin for a shock collar seminar...
> I agree that women are responsible for it. On the other hand men
> train in the way that makes sense to them; women have taken over
> all the terrain, which should not have happened.
This isn't a M/F thing ronnie, this is about intellect and conscience
and fast, safe, effective Vs vicious deadly training methods ronnie.
I've known a lot of DEAD koehler trained dogs that didn't find me in
time to save their goddamned lives..
> Koehler isolates the (beginning) dog for a few hours so that the
> training session is made more attractive,
BWWWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> as ``doing something.''
LIKE GETTING CHOKED AND HUNG, ronnie?
> Schutzhund is off on their own if making it continuous.
Huh? What the heel are you talking about? You're trying to sound like a
dog trainer or something, cause that sentence don't make no goddamned
sense, ronnie. Was there a typo???
> Koehler wants the dog to be around the house
He's afraid of dogs, that's HOWE COME he HURTS and KILLS them ronnie.
> and possibly Schutzhund does not.
shitshound is a freakin JOKE. It's a game. Jerry.
Jerry Howe
collar seminar yet, gwen honey?
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C46D0F8...@ig.utexas.edu...
Gwen Watson
Ron Hardin wrote:
> I agree that women are responsible for it. On the other hand men
> train in the way that makes sense to them;
Which is can be overly harsh.
> women have taken over
> all the terrain, which should not have happened.
Whatever.
>
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
>
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Ron Hardin wrote:
> I remember his training a wolverine, a nice
> exercise for you to try.
> --
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
>
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Not a chance. Not in this lifetime.
Gwen
Ron Hardin
> > I agree that women are responsible for it. On the other hand men
> > train in the way that makes sense to them;
>
> Which is can be overly harsh.
That's life. Women see something else than men do, and are
correspondingly blind to something.
--
Jerry Howe
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C46E1...@mindspring.com...
Jerry Howe
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C46DEE9...@ig.utexas.edu...
DogStar716
I keep seeing this.
Not everyone in that era raised their children by beating them, or their dogs.
Jerry Howe
"Pat Meadows" <p...@meadows.pair.com> wrote in message
news:crmd4u8me11q7aldr...@4ax.com...
> On 17 Jan 2002 05:28:32 GMT, dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716)
> wrote:
> >>A thing in Koehler's defense was that he recommended training your
dog
> >> before you tried his ideas for correcting problem behaviors.
> >Training and behavior problems are often not even related.
> >For example, you can have the best obedience dog in the world, who
likes to
> > dig holes. Just because he's trained doesn't mean he isn't going to
dig. I
> > see nothing in Koehlers book that tells you the "correct" way to
train a dog
> > not to dig before you try the drowning method.
> *Is there* a way to train a dog not to dig?
Yeah. It's in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com
> Pat (who has one digging dog and a yard full of mud because
> of her)
pat, you're an imbecile. You know my methods cure copraphagia, hole
digging, all the problems your pals tell people to HURT their dogs
over...
Your pals call my 100% successful students liars, paid shills for Jerry
and animal fuckers because if my methods work as well as my students
swear they do, you bums can't justify choking and shocking dogs and
locking them in boxes and get out calling that training, patttie...
And here Misty sez my DDR cure her Cockatoo of squawking and biting her
son and my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual perimeter trained
her dog:
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6786-3C0...@storefull-231.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Thanks Tricia9999, that was an interesting read! Course my little
> gray box seems to be working... Buddy stopped biting the baby! No
> negative side-effects seen occurring...not to the bird, the other bird
> or Zelda. ~misty
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs,
> two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back
> in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't
> come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog.
> She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces
> her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the
> road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
> when we walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence
> and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
> train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my
> dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
Dear Jerry-
I just wanted to let you know how wonderful your Doggy Do
Right product is. I was skeptical at first, but have been
tremendously pleased.
As you know, we had a neighbor's dog that was extremely
bothersome, at times barking loudly for 3 hours straight.
Within a few days, the barking decreased, and now it is just
the occasional bark. this dog lives approximately 500 feet
away, and even at that distance, the machine has done wonders.
You were always available and patient to answer my
questions, and now I can be in my own home without going
nuts from the barking. As an added pleasure, all the other
minor barking nuisances in the neighborhood have stopped
as well.
Quiet is wonderful! Thank you.
Pam Graves
From: 2tails (waggi...@hotmail.com)
Subject: My Experience with the Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will Too)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
View: Complete Thread (271 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-07-04 20:45:19 PST
After using Jerry's training manual, I became curious about the
Doggy Do Right (DDR) machine, and a few weeks ago I received one.
I thought the group might be interested in some things I've noticed
since using it. (This is a bit of an understatement as I certainly
expect a flurry of responses... most of them will probably be nasty.
But we'll see.)
Anyway, at first I would leave it on only when I left the house, but one
day I forgot and left it on all night. My dogs used to wake me up
between 8 and 8:30 a.m. The morning after I left it on all night, they
slept until 9:30 a.m. At first I wondered why they had slept in so
late, and then I noticed that the DDR was on.
(And no, I'm not an early riser.) :-)
Now they consistently sleep until 9:30 or 10:00 a.m., unless I wake them
up earlier. One night the power went out, and the DDR was switched
off. They woke me around 8:30 that day.
The second thing was something my husband noticed. If the light on the
DDR is flashing, it is in "rest" mode... when it's solid, it is playing
the program. He came home, the dogs were doing their usual growl and
"bitey face" rowdiness... when the machine's light became solid
(programon), they laid down in the same room with the machine.
Pepper even laid on her side and started taking a little nap.
Often, I will see the dogs in the room with the DDR when the program is
playing, usually around their nap time. That is, they will nap in the
same room as the machine and not in other areas of the house... even
though their "preferred" sleeping spot at other times seems to be my
bed.
The last two things I've noticed have been with my 7 yr old Dalmatian,
Beau. He is normally terrified of thunderstorms, so much that he will
try to crawl into my lap, or he will shake and shed hair everywhere.
(Shedding hair is a symptom of stress I suppose... he does the same
thing at the vet's.)
On Sunday, we had a really severe thunderstorm, with hail, etc. When
the storm began, I turned the machine to play mode. He laid on the
floor next to where I was sitting. He still didn't want to let me get
out of his sight, but his behavior was much improved from earlier
episodes.
The last thing has to do with Beau and the vacuum cleaner. The surest
way for me to clear him out of a room used to be for me to start
vacuuming. He'd race into another room and hide. Now, he will stay in
the same room. He's still wary of it, and leaves his "escape route"
open, but he will stay in the same room while I'm using it, something
he's
never done before.
I've done no training to address these issues, but since using the
DDR for approximately three weeks, these are some of the calmer
behaviors that I've noticed.
As I said, I'm sure this will create a storm. May I say in advance,
that only polite posts will be considered for a response by me.
Regards, Lisa
Hi Jerry,
I received email from Mark Shaw on 10/6 which I just read today.
Sorry I didn't have time to get to it sooner. We have had a lot
going on in our area concerning animals. We formed a new Task
Force to address spay/neuter, pet overpopulation and animal
abuse. I needed to do a lot of research before the first meeting and
time was just not available for anything else.
Anyway the letter went on to say that we are in collusion, I tried
to defraud him, and have sent none of the materials that he has
asked for although he has yet to furnish the P.O. Box number that
he wanted them sent to in the first place. He goes on to state that
I am no longer eligible for the "fictions reward." All of this is in
answer to postings that prove I was "sharing" his email with you
which in his opinion was a breach of good manners. His email only
had terms and conditions of the reward which I would consider
"public information."
Be that as it may, I would like to state that you had my permission
to post any email I have sent you regarding DDR including this
email.
I'm very sorry that you have to put up with this type of situation
from someone that obviously never intended to make good on his
reward offer in the first place.
I had a call from a friend of mine with a very aggressive cat. I
have loaned her my DDR for a few weeks to see if it will calm JR
down. I will let you know the results. She goes to the same holistic
vet that I go to and he is also interested.
In case Mark does post to the list again I would like to say that I
do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it has helped
my dogs and cats. I have entirely too much to do, to worry about his
opinions or reward.
The only reason I was willing to apply for the reward was on your
behalf as I do think your product is a valuable tool in helping with
aggression and other behavior problems.
I am in Feral Cat Network (we spay and neuter approximately 100
feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC dog
obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club, president of
Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for Care and Welfare of
Animals (on the board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from
AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of
animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.).
I listed these not to be on an ego trip but to let Mark know that I
am involved with animals and have very little time to play games
with him also I would not recommend your product if I did not
believe in it.
Please feel free to post this email as it has no copyright on it as
did Mark Shaw's last email to me.
Take care Jerry and don't let the Mark's of the world get you down.
Elaine
Thank you, Elaine. I have been trying to educate the mark's of this
world, with some occasional successes. I guess that's variable
reinforcement?
Yours, Jerry.
Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue writes: Sep 9,
2000
"I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful and
the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right does
indeed exist.
I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing
aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback,
but our cats and even us.
She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him
to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any
aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression
towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl.
It is not just my opinion that all this aggression existed
before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by three vets
to euthanize her.
I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it
has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a
valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior
problems.
I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter approximately
100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC
dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club,
president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for
Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county
commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat
club, assistant County manager, head of animal control,
director of two different shelters, etc.).
Thanks, Elaine,
Hi Jerry,
I wrote to you a week or so ago about the unit. I have since
borrowed one from Elaine Mc Clung. She speaks very
highly of it.
So, I brought it home and plugged it in. Of course, I
wanted it to come on, all the barking stop, and have every
one immediately fall to the floor in little comas for a few
hours. Well, after I got all 27 of them to be quiet, still no
comas. But, it had only been 36 seconds at that point. So,
I gave it a little longer. Still no comas. Was this really
going to work? I mean, I do have an unusual situation.
So, by bedtime, a few hours later. I started to notice just
how many were asleep already - with their feet in the air! I
started to have hope. During the night, all was calm. In the
morning when I got up, only a few of them WALKED quietly
to the door to go out. Not the usual evacuation.
I had the unit from Sunday afternoon until Tuesday
Morning. I was certainly pleased with the night effect. I
wasn't so sure about the amount of the day time effect.
Until I took it back. Within half an hour, the monsters had
resurfaced. I wondered if I could break into Elaine's house
and if she would notice :)
I know another person who does dog rescue. She rescues
Beagles. She has 23 in an 1100 square foot house. God
bless her. She is interested to see if it will work for her. I
also spoke to someone else who does cat rescue, and
she is interested. The cat rescue people have monthly
meetings. Maybe Elaine could give a word or two about it.
So, if there are any words of advice you can send my way
about the best way to use it in my case, I would appreciate
it. I of course wanted to keep it on the highest setting, but
don't know if that is advised, even with my situation of so
many new ones coming and (too few) going.
Also, how I and others can go about getting one, etc. I
think the vets should have the info in their offices. It must
help dogs with separation anxiety. My vet practices
homeopathic as well as traditional medicine, so I
would think it would be right up her alley.
Thank you.
Desiree M Webber
A New Leash On Life
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu9...@4ax.com...
> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the
> literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make
> the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice, just by
> taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The pup
> got scared and just wanted to stay away from me.
> That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits' End Dog
> Training
> manual -- that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy.
> The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this: make yourself
> the center of your puppy's world -- his personal Lord Jesus. Never
> give him a reason to fear you or think you're angry. Love the heck
> out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog.
> This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do anything I want
> her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent,
> and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship
> with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
> Charlie
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
Robert Crim writes:
>Terri
Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe
I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it
incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for
about one year. It truly does work - at least on my Dobe,
Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed
attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment
and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and
strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older
couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry
Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him
personally work with Chelsea.
His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog
that you will bully, and I wouldn't dream of hurting her. After
Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture,
ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash.
She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long
story and I won't bore you with all the details, but suffice it
to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us.
Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.)
P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won't sell you my DDR!
DogStar716
>
There are methods people try, but they usually aren't successful. Humane
methods, that is :)
Digging is the one behavior that you really have to pick your battle with. Me,
my backyard is just that, a plot of yard in the back. My dogs don't dig, but
they do create trails and such. Nothing fancy back there, gardenwise though.
Jerry Howe
raised two beautiful young ladies without ever laying a hand on them or
punishing them..
Have you taken your shock collar seminar yet? You're a THUG gwen honey.
j;~)
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C46DAB2...@ig.utexas.edu...
Ron Hardin
> >Again part of the era, IMHO.
>
> I keep seeing this.
>
> Not everyone in that era raised their children by beating them, or their dogs.
Beating is fairly ineffective so described, which is why opponents of Koehler
describe him that way.
The era continues and works fine. A correction has a grammar to it.
Dogs understand it and people used to understand it.
You can take the most extreme remedy in Koehler, ignore all the context
such as train the dog first and the problem may go away easily, and that
the police are about to seize and off the dog for barking, and even then
Koehler is working to put a context around the correction so that the
dog gets that it's about barking and not displeasure or the trainer's ego,
that the inevitability starts with barking.
I don't happen to have had that problem; I'd guess that bark collars have
a great advantage of instant correction today, which Koehler had to work
very hard to supply by making noise of approach to keep the association
with barking until he got there.
Jerry Howe
THE KISS OF DEATH for them... BWWWAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C46DA30...@ig.utexas.edu...
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
>
>
> Not everyone in that era raised their children by beating them, or their dogs.
>
True, but many did. In fact I would say the numbers where
skewed to the beating side rather than the other way
around. As in 60/40.
Gwen
Jerry Howe
Your pals here rely on the koehler method. The shove the dog's head
under water is on your pal cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon's
faqs page at k9 web. Your pal lying frosty dahl and lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn rely on koehler, and professor scruff shake and ed w of
petloss dot CON and diane blackman recommend reading koehler so we'll be
well rounded...
"It Can Be Really Funny To Watch Shove His Nose Into The Water; Hold Him
There Till He Is Sure He's Drowning "I LOVE This One. It's VERY
Effective, It Absolutely Doesn't Interfere In Your Relationship With
Your Dog, And Is EASY And QUICK"
This same tactic is taught by cindymooreon on her "faq" page on k9web,
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn at their Bay Area GSD shelters, and lying
frosty dahl, marquis de "read koehler for content" shaw..., professor
"scruff shake" dermer, professora "chin chuck absolutely doesn't mean
slap" gingold, ron hardin, and much, much moore. j;~}
From: Dogman (dog...@i1.net)
Date: 1997/11/01
On a cold day in Hell, 31 Oct 1997 23:50:55 GMT, dogp...@aol.com
(Dogpsych) wrote:
[...]
>Koehler's Usefulness: Digging
> If you come home and find your dog has dug a hole, fill the hole
> brimful of water. With the training collar and leash, bring the dog
to the hole
> and shove his nose into the water; hold him there until he is sure
he's
> drowning. If your dog is of any size, you may get all of the action of
a
> cowboy bull-dogging a steer. Stay with it. I've had elderly ladies
who'd
> had their fill of ruined flower beds dunk some mighty big dogs. A
great many
> dogs will associate this horrible experience with the hole they dug.
It is not
> necessary to *catch the dog in the act* in any of the above instances
of
> correction. Be consistent in your corrections and your dog will come
to find
> the smell of freshly dug earth quite repugnant.
I LOVE this one. It's VERY effective, it absolutely doesn't interfere
in your relationship with your dog, and is EASY and QUICK to do. And
it can be really funny to watch. Yes, there are other methods that
work, for example the stake-in-the- ground method that Koehler also
describes, balloons in the water, etc.
The point here is that you have a CHOICE. If your flowers, yard,
etc., are no big deal to you, don't even worry about it. Live with
the destruction, give him an area of his own to "destroy," etc.
Whatever. But if you're one of those people who spends a lot of time
and MONEY on your landscaping and grounds, give it a try. It works!
No, there is no reason for you to "drown" your dog! Hyperbole is just
that. Hyperbole! Don't let it cloud your common sense.
Usually within seconds, the dog will start to struggle. That's what
you want him to do: THINK he is about to drown, not actually drown.
Hold him there for another few seconds and then release him. And I've
never known of a dog to even attempt to bite during this procedure.
Normally they'll just shake it off and start AVOIDING ANY HOLES --
almost immediately.
Now folks, what's the worst thing that happened to this dog? Was it
injured in any way? Absolutely not. Was he startled? Absolutely.
That's what AVERSIVES are supposed to do. This procedure works
in the same way that snake-proofing a dog with an electronic collar
works. Or to prevent dogs from chasing deer, etc. And if you think
you can make your dog, say, avoid POISONOUS snakes using only
positive reinforce, I've got some beach-front property in Kansas I can
sell you cheap.
Are flowers and backyards a matter of life and death. Probably not --
unless the dog ends up at the vet's because of it. But SOME people,
unable to otherwise "cure" this hole-digging, will simply take their
dog to the vet's to be euthanized. Don't believe that? Go down to
your shelter or rescue group and ASK them the reasons that people turn
in dogs. Maybe YOU wouldn't do it, but a lot of folks would. There
aren't approximately 5 million dogs put to death each year (in the US
alone) for no reason, are there?
So folks, yes...YOU decide for yourself. If this seems "cruel" to
you, just don't do it. But don't think about getting an abortion,
either.
>Who is cruel to a dog, is more cruel thereby to his own soul.
> --Will Judy
Whosoever refuses to punish a dog for behavior that can get it KILLED
has no heart whatsoever and will go straight to hell.
--Dogman
>"So grab the line and give him about 5 minutes of the hardest tanning
> you can administer. Use a belt heavy enough to make him really feel
> your efforts."
> --William Koehler
Jerry Howe
alcohol abuse and animal abusers... It's no accident.
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C46FB33...@ig.utexas.edu...
Jerry Howe
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C46FB...@mindspring.com...
> DogStar716 wrote:
> > >Again part of the era, IMHO.
> > I keep seeing this.
> > Not everyone in that era raised their children by beating them, or
their dogs.
> Beating is fairly ineffective so described,
All fear, force, and confrontation is ineffective and problematical,
ronnie. I don't care HOWE we intimidate or inflict pain, it inhibits
learning causes aversion and adversion and gets people hurt and dogs
DEAD.
> which is why opponents of Koehler describe him that way.
Well, could it be because beating choking and hanging dogs is the
method?
> The era continues and works fine.
Didn't work for shit with heeling Annie if you recall... in fact, after
months of abusing her you finally stumbled onto sound distraction and
praise, although you didn't apply the technique correctly, it worked so
fast that the timing turned out right, as I'd have taught you if you
were intelligent and caring enough to learn the very best methods in
history...
> A correction has a grammar to it.
No, a correction has pain and intimidation to it. A lying dog abusing
Thug has grammar and semantics to rely on to disguise what you're saying
so you don't sound like an ignorant dog abusing self serving nobody
THUG.
> Dogs understand it and people used to understand it.
Dogs turn on their handlers because of your methods ronnie. That's HOWE
come koehler has five different methods of hanging and beating dogs,
ronnie. Want me to pull up the pages to refresh you memory?
> You can take the most extreme remedy in Koehler, ignore all the
context
> such as train the dog first and the problem may go away easily,
Sorry ronnie. My forty years experience tell me your methods cause the
NEED for the remedies he offers...
> and that the police
Killed a police dog on duty in the UK a few years ago ...
> are about to seize and off the dog for barking,
My methods trains dogs to be calm and quiet without shooting them with
slingshot and beating the crap outta them. I'll include the technique
from your koehler book below, ronnie.
> and even then Koehler is working to put a context around the
correction so
> that the dog gets that it's about barking and not displeasure or the
trainer's
> ego, that the inevitability starts with barking.
The dog gets beat till IT figures it out. A half dozen beatings of long
duration are required. Many dogs turn on their handlers and get vicious
over it and get dead.
> I don't happen to have had that problem; I'd guess that bark collars
have
> a great advantage of instant correction today,
You shock your dog too. Some koehler trainer, eh ronnie? I though you
have the ultimate training method? My method doesn't NEED to SHOCK or
HURT dogs and I get 100% reliable results ronnie. Ask my students here.
> which Koehler had to work very hard to supply by making noise of
approach
> to keep the association with barking until he got there.
You meand he screams from the first moment the dog barks till he whails
the crap outta the dog strung up on a ceiling hitch or something,
ronnie.
My machine cures all barking dogs with out even speaking to them, and I
never raise my voice to my dogs, it's not in my manual to intimidate our
dogs, ronned. We NEED them to TRUST US.
> Ron Hardin
> rhha...@mindspring.com
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Our experts resort to HURTING the dog with shock devices and jerking and
choking them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars, spraying aversives
in their eyes and locking them in their boxes. And then they deny what
they
teach, janet boss and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and lying frosty dahl
have a tendency to do that...
Now, when a dog is getting ITS ears pinched and is screaming and trying
to avoid the pain (cindy mooreon sez "don't let the dog SCREAM" in her
forced fetch instructions) or the stick as lying frosty dahl and
cindymooreon teach, (the ones they've both offered to sue us for
copyright
infringement if we discuss them here) we'd expect the dog to try to bite
us.
WOULDN'T WE?
Here's the remedy for that according to koehler. Most of our dog abusers
are devout koehler trainers, marquis de "read koehler for content" shaw,
lying "Oh YEAH! I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, lying frosty dahl, ann twzl,
fraudreck, cindymooreon, most of our dog lovers rely on and follow the
vicious
advice from the monster koehler yet they deny it here on our forum
because koehler didn't have shock and pronged spiked pinch choke
collars. That's the only difference.
We enjoy our koehler methods:
>>The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York: Howell Book
>>Book House(p. 52-53)."
>> Hanging
>> "First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more
>>than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic
>>actions could cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and
>>fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth
>>have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
>>the ground. As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
>>the dog is suspended in mid-air.
>> However, to let the biting dog
>>recover his footing while he still had the strength to renew the
>>attack would be cruelty. The only justifiable course is to hold him
>>suspended until he has neither the strength nor inclination to renew
>>the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is physically incapable
>>of expressing his resentment and is lowered to the ground, he will
>>probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps, vomit once or
>>twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog lying,
>>thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it alarm
>>you
>THE REAL "HOOD"
>"If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types of
>protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your
>efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
>"Professional trainers often get these extreme problems. Nearly
>always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by
>avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds
>of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under
>correction. When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
>painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
>trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was
>incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists,
>breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins and
>broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of the
>greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time.
>"With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be
>demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and
>certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer
>morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation."
>"Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in
>resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that
>situation. (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much
>easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master."
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996
William Koehler
"Housebreaking problems":
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Some of the new "breaking scents" on the market can
aid in your house-breaking program. One type
discourages the dog from even visiting an
area. Another encourages him to relieve himself in the
area where it is sprinkled. Your pet shop should be
able to supply further information on the brands available in your
district.
Be fair to your dog in what and when you feed him and
be consistent in your efforts to housebreak him, and
you'll soon accomplish the job.
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain
you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were
against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet
them, so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in
his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more
emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one
that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from
a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless you
supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he
thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at
the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs
with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As
was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not
lessen the dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more
discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because
you're gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical
for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater
to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed
the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little
ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort
doesn't turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a
stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will
also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog
drags it around when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a
man's leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular
dog a good tanning.
Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember,
you're dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and
neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but
where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If
you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful
not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as
sharp as yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so
you can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally
impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of
"out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you've
conveniently placed, and descend on him. He'll have no chance to
dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are
raised off the floor or, if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him
up with a hitch on something. While he's held in close, lay the
strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on
a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After
fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end
up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've
always felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they
"cry out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your
dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range
bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat
the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a
full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he
gets away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble
on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just
a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you
have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe
his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be
watching and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the
family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a
block or two from your house so you can come back and park within
earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you've
returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool
the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving
off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has
reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when
you're not around, so give the above method an honest try before
you presume your dog requires a more severe correction."
Jerry Howe
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117111942...@mb-md.aol.com...
> >*Is there* a way to train a dog not to dig?
> There are methods people try, but they usually aren't successful.
No, that's bunk lostinspace666. Diggin is EZ to fix. Takes my students a
few minutes over acouple couple days to totally cure. Same with
coprophagia, barking, countersurfing, garbage bin raiding, kat food
eating, kitty litter krunchie munching, separation anxiety... lots
moore.
> Humane methods, that is :)
Totally non force non confrontation non physical techniques for every
behavior imagineable, lostinspace666.
> Digging is the one behavior that you really have to pick your battle
with.
Bullshit. You're an incompetent trainer.
> Me, my backyard is just that, a plot of yard in the back.
My students enjoy their yards and gardens and are able to quickly train
their dogs to relieve themselves exactly where they tell them to and
train them not to go into growing areas, EZ.
> My dogs don't dig, but they do create trails and such.
We can easily alter their routes if that's a concern. NO PROBLEM. Any
behavior we desire we can quickly and EZily train. All my basic students
have that kind of KNOW HOWE.
> Nothing fancy back there, gardenwise though.
Nuthin fancy in dog training from you either.
> Dogstar716
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at all, people
> who find the manual useful are those that don't need to control a dog
to
> satisfy their own ego but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy
to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the advice in his
manual are
> people who have already tried other ineffiecient methods and are fed
up
> with the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the more sense
> it makes, the biggest problem is people believe they have to be in
> control of the dog, tell it whats right and wrong, dogs don't
understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of understanding them
> either, so to train them we use methods they understand. That means
> abstract training, doing sometimes what appears to almost be the
> opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not find Jerry's
> manual much use, if you love your dogs and love to work WITH them
> then Jerry's manual is your dream come true.
> Distraction and praise works with any dog, when you sit back
> and really think about it, it's very obvious why. When a dog is
> properly distracted (and praised) of a particular behaviour then
> that behaviour very quickly becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no
> longer have any interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food stealing etc
etc,
> no force, no bad dog, just distracting it in an appropriate manner
that it
> no longer wishes to pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
Tricia9999
>trainers with good timing would be very similar regardless of the method
>used. I always thought Koehler techniques were fair because they stressed
>that the dog understand what was expected. I was wrong. Ron can talk
>citizenship all he wants to - what I saw was robotic methodical behavior
>chains, along with a squelching of individual personality. I saw all the mat
>sniffing and yawning and turning the head to avoid eye contact in a
>different light, and I was really shocked.
>
>---
>Susan Fraser, owned and trained by
>HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH, and
>HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong MH **
>
Nice observations. Fact is, some people are aiming for the robotic methodical
squelched personality, not mention the fear in the dog. Some people enjoy that
power relationship and the intimidation factor. There are some traditional OB
trainers in my area and the dogs are often fearful and tentative. They get
through the routines in the ring, but it's a sad sight.
Gwen Watson
Tricia9999 wrote:
> Nice observations. Fact is, some people are aiming for the robotic methodical
> squelched personality, not mention the fear in the dog. Some people enjoy that
> power relationship and the intimidation factor. There are some traditional OB
> trainers in my area and the dogs are often fearful and tentative. They get
> through the routines in the ring, but it's a sad sight.
Yep I seen it as well. One of the reasons I had become
frustrated searching for a good trainer. I have
decided my best bet is to obtain many various
training videos and utilize techniques from
the ones I feel comfortable with.
Gwen
Ron Hardin
The robotic and fearful dogs I've noticed are those trained with
electronic collars.
Are you by any chance calling seriousness about the job robotic?
It's not taught as a romp.
--
Tricia9999
>Either everyone nowadays is doing Koehler wrong, or the old jerk and praise
>correction-based training has truly gone the way of the buffalo.
>
An analogy I often use: I used to tutor students in calculus. Would their
learning have been enhanced if I slapped them and yelled at them while they
were struggling with their differentials? No, it would have been stunted, more
likely they would have left and studied art hating the math for the rest of
their lives. I don't see how anyone can suggest that 'teaching' and 'learning'
should involve intimidation and violence. Imagine when you were 16, learning to
drive, someone in the other seat giving you a punch every now and then. Boy
that sure would help you learn to drive, huh?
For those that talk about humaniacs, I don't think anyone here is suggesting
that we can't let our dogs know when they are wrong. More information is
better, but the weird thinking about learning being facilitated by roughness
just doesn't hold up scientifically or logically.
Alpha
point of view, treat your dog like a dog, learn how it thinks and train
accordingly, there are many fine trainers here and people should listen to
them all.
There is no problem with a growl and a scruff of the neck and a hard look
into the eyes, as long as you do not use violence as a means of forcing the
dog to work.
You must keep it fun and a big game for it to work, you must also select the
dog for the job at hand and test it properly....Alpha
--
Treat your dog like a dog
Cliff Hammond
Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:YAD18.63816$3x5.3...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> Hello lostinspace666,
>
> "DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020117111942...@mb-md.aol.com...
>
> with.
>
> Bullshit. You're an incompetent trainer.
>
not the dog (necessarily). And after all you said about the ineffectiveness
of punishment, why do ya go and insult one of your owners who you should be
trying to train using positive reinforcement? Right? Now why would I want
to take my dog to a trainer who will positively reinforce my dog but insult
me (punishment). No. I would make it through 15 min of training until,
"Bullshit. You're an incompetent trainer!" and I would be outta there
practicing all the restraint I could muster. In fact, NO REWARD! You don't
get any money dude, cause I wouldn't want to reinforce your insolence.
Just a little advice.
Bethgsd
>
>> I agree that women are responsible for it. On the other hand men
>> train in the way that makes sense to them;
>
>Which is can be overly harsh.
You haven't seen some of the women I have in dogs and horses then. Quite
disqusting to see a woman beating an animal with a rope for some slight
misbehavior.
Beth
p.s. Gwen, there is book about Koehler and the animals that he trained for
Disney. He actually may be the author. Very interesting book on how he
trained a lot of what you saw. Most of it relied on the dogs have very solid
obedience skills.
Jerry Howe
"Cliff Hammond" <cliffh...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bJK18.2718$XZ1.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:YAD18.63816$3x5.3...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> > Hello lostinspace666,
> > "DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20020117111942...@mb-md.aol.com...
> > > Digging is the one behavior that you really have to pick your
battle
> > > with.
> > Bullshit. You're an incompetent trainer.
> Oh, geese. Now there you go. Every trainer knows that you train the
owner
> not the dog (necessarily).
Yeah? Digging and poo eating and fence jumping are about the EZiest
problems for my methods to extinguish. Takes a couple of minutes over a
couple days, MAX.
HOWE come our "experts" here keep tellin people not to study my FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual cause a trainer's got to SEE a dog
and observe a master trainer to learn it?
HOWE come my student's get 100% success with their dog behavior problems
in a few days of EZ work. When they report their incredibly speedy
progress our "experts" here call my students liars, paid shills for
Jerry and animal fuckers and organize killfile campaings so our readers
won't find out we've got a Gang Of shock and pronged spiked pinch choke
collar and devout koehler trainers. When asked, they deny they're koeher
trainers cause koehler didn't have a pronged spiked pinch choke or shock
collar.
> And after all you said about the ineffectiveness of punishment,
Ineffectiveness? I don't think I ever said punishment based training was
ineffective, I said it MAKES DOGS SHY or AGGRESSIVE and GETS DOGS DEAD.
> why do ya go and insult one of your owners
Because the OP is a known Thug. She may be turning around with her
epihphany of yesterday about what I've been talking about for three
years about our koehler fans here, but that in and of itself doesn't
legitimize her lack of knowledge of training and behavior.
> who you should be trying to train using positive reinforcement?
As a competent, proficient trainer, I'm with you on that 120%.
> Right?
PRECISELY. Undertsand now? j;~)
> Now why would I want to take my dog to a trainer who will positively
reinforce
> my dog but insult me (punishment).
Because you're not a known Thug, I've got no malice towards you. As a
Thug, you'd be INCORRIGIBLE and it would be my obligation to do the KIND
thing. Like our friend paulette " 'Too many NO KILL shelters?' 'YES!!!'
Nolan" sez is sometimes NECESSARY.
All our BALANCED TRAINERS KNOW when an individual NEEDS moore guidance
with a firmer hand.
That's HOWE come.
> No. I would make it through 15 min of training until,
PREDCISELY. We'd be DONE. Got it? You and your dog would be conditioned
to not pull on lead and to come the first time you call him, at least in
that one training area. We'd need to repeat the conditioning in three
moore locations before we've got it 100% reliable. And to be certain of
a flawlessly trained critter, we'd repeat the first exercises three
moore times in succession in location 1 before working the come command
elsewhere, and repeat the exercise four times in the next three
locations to boot for a 100% guaranteed reliable recall.
> "Bullshit. You're an incompetent trainer!"
I'd tell you to follow the exercises and let me know if you need any
extra help. You'd have been taught in one hour of work without the dog
and fifteen minutes on lead exactly every thing you need to know to
control all of your dog's behaviors using effective non force, non
confrontational conditioning techniques.
Charlie W cured an aggression problem in one session using my methods.
> and I would be outta there practicing all the restraint I could
muster.
No you wouldn't. You'd be scratching your head and pinching yourself. I
guarantee my work 100%. My students do not fail because we don't start
training until we've talked for an hour or so...and when we start with
the dog, the goddamned dog rolls right over for us. I could teach your
dog not to respond to his name for you in fifteen minutes.
> In fact, NO REWARD! You don't get any money dude,
I never discuss money before a lesson because it distracts my thoughts.
I don't LIKE to think of money, it makes me want to wash my hands. The
eyes in GW's picture don't look at me like the eyes of the koeher
trained dogs I've retrained. You wanna see grateful critters???
> cause I wouldn't want to reinforce your insolence.
You're probably new around here. Our "experts" here have conspired for
years to harass and ridicule and denigrate every non force trainer who's
ever posted here because they're afraid if non force methods work they
won't be able to justify the only methods they know...
> Just a little advice.
I haven't trained a dog for pay in over three years. I work stricktly
for FREE on the WWW specializing in temperament and behavior problems
worldwide from sittin right here, stark ravin nekkid.
From your koehler book:
"While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his
thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is..."
From Frank to lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn:
"How fricken sick do you need to be to say a dog chooses to be
shocked or pronged or shot in the ass with a sling shot? Chooses
it over what?
Are you twisted pieces of human refuse offering a dog a selection of
torture devices, and observing them indicating their personal
preference of pain infliction?
I thought the whole idea behind aversion training was that the
subject does not choose it.
You Lynn thinking people are a bunch of abusive idiots. *YOU* choose
to hurt dogs. Fine. But the fact that you want to sell the idea
that the dogs that god and human society have entrusted, have gifted to
you, are actually empowered by your abuse, is an example of
sociopathic illogic beyond anything this ng has yet offered. You're
like some fricken wife beater who actually says "Don't make me hit
you, Bitch!" What part of what backwoods portion of which idiot nation
do you people reside in? THE DOG CHOOSES? What is next?
we have so far
1. I hurt dogs to save their lives.
2. I hurt dogs to save people's lives.
3. I hurt dogs to accomodate their choice in being hurt.
Just hurt the dogs and don't try to explain it. Please, you're scaring
me with this stuff. No wonder why you guys get so bent out of shape
when others speculate as to your motivation behind hurting dogs.
Their speculation seems more plausable then what you yourself offer.
You're so sick, so drunk with your "tools" of power, that you don't even
see the abusive egoism in your explanations. You people are way far
gone.
It will be 20 years before you'll be embarrassed or ashamed by what
you write in here daily."
And here's a little of what Frank was talking about:
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
Psychoclown (terri willis) wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Here's a couple quotes from our dog abusing lying Thug pal lying frosty
dahl and company:
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There
Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything
But Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by
making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl
who continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained
require much more frequent and heavy application of
pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the
job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it
yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to
striking them more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the
buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the
ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting
your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it catches
on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to
beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,
and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck
it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting
tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
> > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > want to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
for her and her family.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
(an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
or using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. j;~)
"Housebreaking problems":
Read about our dog lovers methods for training a Retriever dog to
retrieve. What do you suppose they got a capital R in front of their
name for? (it's at the bottom)
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???
Here's the twisting and pinching part:
What is Force Fetching All About?
by Cindy Tittle Moore
Copyright 1997,1998 by the
author; all rights reserved.
THE FORCE FETCH
Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I
repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out,
someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for
obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed
avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn
off" a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete
control over it.
This is a very effective way of teaching, but does
require a more astute sense of timing than some other training
methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety
of reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point,
it's easily done with a minimum of fuss.
Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and
leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth
as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog's
collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch
the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever
you want) Watch his mouth closely -- the moment he opens his
mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar,
and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per
session.
When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the
next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step
is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch)
necessary to get the dumbbell.
At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that darned
thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch.
Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That's his
second milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four
times this session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more
than 5 minutes or so each. That's still true.
Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it.
Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It's not enough
for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to
getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of
limply reaches over and gets it, that's not what you want. If you
pinch him but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that's not what
you want either. We're back to the visualization. What do you want
him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about
anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you
feel him pulling out of it to get that. That's his committment. You
want to say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the
dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him
when he's made a good committment -- this will help shape a speedy
response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an
experienced person around when you are doing this! It can
be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually
sitting there with a dog in your hands.
About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant
he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have
problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough,
or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar may be
needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are
screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by
screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique just fine -- but
not with the behavior you had in mind!
Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the collar.
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch.
You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.
Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold
the dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull
him back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will
do him good later.
The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them,
with your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may
refuse -- keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he
really
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.
Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.
As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will get control of him (put him in a sit
with a firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the dumbbell -- he
can pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his
mouth any more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.
When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the exercise.
You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or
refuses to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place
the dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch, force
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and gets
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't
already dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back
where it was, and pinch him to it.
There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once they
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So
transition to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet
long.
With this you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the
dumbbell, teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog drops
the dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him
try to pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb is
that if he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.
Thoughts to Consider
Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something disgusting
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted
some step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go
back and fix it.
But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any of
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of groceries
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just love
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!"
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Jerry Howe
"Alpha" <swee...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:KyK18.74183$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Lynn K.
> Nice observations. Fact is, some people are aiming for the robotic methodical
> squelched personality, not mention the fear in the dog. Some people enjoy that
> power relationship and the intimidation factor. There are some traditional OB
> trainers in my area and the dogs are often fearful and tentative. They get
> through the routines in the ring, but it's a sad sight.
I get very tired of people assuming that a dog that is not joyful and
animated in the ring is "robotic" or somehow traumatized, because it
simply isn't a valid assumption. My breed, GSDs, can take life very,
very seriously and there are more than a few born-worrier GSDs. A GSD
tail carried mid-level in the ring is no indication of the dog's training
or relationship with handler. (I happen to have a cheerful, motivated
boy, but he's a real exception.)
Lynn K.
Lynn K.
> Indeed. Try some of Joanne Flemming Plumbs videos. She is fabulous
> in my book.
I respect Joanne Plumb's work - but take a look at her tracking video.
It's a good example of a training method that kills natural enthusiasm
for the task.
Lynn K.
Lynn K.
> Koehler wants the dog to be around the house and possibly Schutzhund
> does not.
Did you miss the part where Gwen said "Schutzhund of that era"?
The same could be said of a lot of field trainers of that era.
The very fact that it is no longer a valid statement might indicate
to you that just like Schutzhund and field training, obedience
training has moved beyond the era of Koehler, for the betterment of
all.
Lynn K.
Jerry Howe
"Tricia9999" <trici...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117200021...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> Susan wrote:
> >Either everyone nowadays is doing Koehler wrong, or the old jerk and
praise
> >correction-based training has truly gone the way of the buffalo.
<snip excellent analogy>
> For those that talk about humaniacs,
The word isn't in Websters, but I didn't look any further. koehler
trainers like to make up professional sounding jargon to appear
knowledgeabe about a non existent subterfuge to convince us they know
what they're talking about which is in reality only a half truth at best
or out and out phantasy.
> I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we can't let our dogs
know when
> they are wrong.
EXACTLY. That's not a suggestion. Non confrontation is the fundamental
goop which holds my method together.
> More information is better,
WHOA! Back up a moment please. The very idea that you're going to "tell
a dog he done wrong" is adversarial. Isn't it. There is never a
justifiable reason for having any kind of negative interaction because
it don't take much to turn yoour dog off to you and make him not come
when you ask and chew or mess in the HOWEs.
Dogs do not understand "I'm sorry or don't take it personally or I still
love you but...," they only understand HAPPY. When things aren't GOOD,
they FEEL rejection and adversion when they are told they've failed us.
My dogs have never seen disappointment on my face, beause I rely on them
wanting to always hear my gentle words and pay attention to me, so I
never tell them anything they don't LIKE to hear... "flies and vinegar,"
to pinch a pair of phrase... j;~)
> but the weird thinking about learning being facilitated by roughness
> just doesn't hold up scientifically or logically.
O.K. Try to stick this one out with me for a moment and maybe you'll
come to an epiphany here. If a dog isn't human thinking enough to
understand something like a bonus check will be sent in the mail for his
performance today, HOWE is he gonna figger about being scolded for
something the he don't even know freaking exists except that its within
reach of his chew range?
So pup chews the couch, and being caught in the act we scold him. NOT
MUCH, just enough to let him know you're mad. KERCHINNNNNGGGG!!! Just
taught the dog chewing the couch IS power he has over you to make you
stop dead in your tracks from two rooms away and pay him 100% of your
undivided attention.
NOW WHAT? You've just armed the dog with your invisible leash. Same
thing happens when you say HEY!!! when you see him start to lift his leg
or steal your breakfast or anything else. It makes them try to complete
inappropriate behaviors BEFORE YOU CAN STOP THEM, like bolting through
doors and stealing steaks and teaches them to do things they really
really really want to do like raid garbage cans and get on the bed as
soon as you turn your back.
Let's go back to the couch and think this next one through. Dogs cannot
be corrected after a bad deed, they've got to be "caught in the act,"
correct?
HOWE much time after a "bad deed" do you have in which to give an
effective "reprimand" of whatever sort?
My experience and research shows me the dog's retroactive short term
memory is usually about 3/4's of a second before their minds are so
absorbed in the next thought that you'd have quite a time reproducing
the same situation as you had one second after a behavior.
When you walk into the living room and see Hoover's teeth on your couch
he looks up and don't know from nuthin, he's just a puppy dog, don't
know from antiques or whatnot. He smiles and thinks "maybe mom's gonna
come over and enjoy what I found here. You say "Noooooo! Shame shame
shame!" That's all. Take the puppy by the collar maybe and escort him
off the couch and send him to his crate for a "time out." Just the
emotional and physical contact is rewarding to the pup in some manner.
What's the pup to think? He'd be dumbfounded. Scenario was, you walked
into the room and his whole life lights up like a freakin Christmas tree
cause you've come in, and he's thinking he's gettin lucky to have you
join him, and all of a sudden you pull the plug and banish him for a few
minutes.
Scolding a dog in front of others makes them feel animosity towards
those who've observed him being the recipient of your disappointment,
and the observers will take sides with you and further admonish the
trouble maker. That's part of what happened to "my dog bit a kid" and
Summer an TOTALLY what happened to Sampson. Marilyn and Canis55 were in
agreement with me on NOT punishing and I'll freakin quote professor
dermer stating this can be the case. So, since both sides agree on that
issue of scolding or punishing aggressive behavior, and coincidentally
our pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" painted herself into that same corner
quoted in my post to Mr. Mastiff, the case for scolding or correction
for aggression is CLOSED.
Scolding and correcting dogs is dangerous to the health and lives of one
and all.
Anybody disagree? Let's talk and we can do some moore troubleshooting.
I'll start just to make sure everybody's on the same page here...
THAT'S what got "my dog bit a kid" DEAD. Mom had just scolded a child
and a few minutes later turned her back and the rotten kid pulled
another stunt probably tormenting the dog or whatever I don't do
EXCUSES, this is life or death stuff we're talking about. The dog only
did what Mom had just done, think ALLELOMIMETIC BEHAVIOR.
Think for a moment about what caused Summer to become aggressive towards
kids. Mom's got her hands full with children and they're monsters or
just normal little kids and they'll leave doors open and do dumb stuff
so the dog can use a break from that and mom don't have three heads...
So each time the kids come by tara throws Summer in the box and the
kiddies come in and vilolins, the dog is excited to see the kids and
whines and barks to say hi and play. Then tara sez "shut up!" Summer
pretty quickly figures when the kids come she gets punished and scolded.
Even if it's not TRAUMATIC.
Just gently putting Summer in the crate and stimulated to play because
of the kids cruising around in or out of sight, causes a barrier
frustration syndrome. The rest is HISTORY.
And unless we study and learn from our history, we're doomed to repeat
it. Cause that's the Nature of the Beast.
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu9...@4ax.com...
> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the
> literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make
> the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice, just by
> taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The pup
> got scared and just wanted to stay away from me.
> That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits' End Dog
> Training
> Charlie
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
Robert Crim writes:
>Terri
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs,
> two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back
> in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't
> come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog.
> She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces
> her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the
> road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
> when we walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence
> and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
> train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my
> dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe
Lynn K.
> I recall Dogman was a big Koehler fan, and he always told me to read the book
> before I condemned the guy. Well......
Yeah, but I also believe Dogman was careful to state that you should
NOT read Koehler as a training manual or how-to book. I know I'm very
careful to say that whenever I suggest someone actually read his work
instead of reacting to a 2nd hand version.
What I find most ironic is that Koehler was revolutionary for his time -
as an advocate of a MORE HUMANE method of training dogs than what had
been common practice before him. His stress on fairness and responsibility
was almost unheard of before then. Clearly, it's a progression, and that's
why almost every trainer I know who has been seriously training for more
than 15 or 20 years will acknowledge Koehler's contributions, while being
sure to warn against using many of his specific training techniques.
Koehler had some good things to say. That doesn't mean I'm about to put
a long line on a dog to teach the recall or do his quick turn shit on
heeling, let alone the head in water stuff for digging. I have a very
difficult time understanding why people can't comprehend that those are
not mutually exclusive opinions.
Lynn K.
Tricia9999
>very seriously and there are more than a few born-worrier GSDs
I agree. My aussie looks for all the world that she has been beaten into
submission on the sits and downs. Never has been. It is a dangerous leap, but I
do think there are often some signs of training techniques. It's just like
people who get a dog from a shelter and proclaim that it had been abused.
Probably just a shy scared dog. Do I sound like I'm contradicting myself?
I see the trainers training with excessiveness and see the dogs reaction. That
is when I draw the conclusions.
Ludwig Smith
>Training and behavior problems are often not even related.
And often they are. Sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly.
Training and giving a dog something to do is likely to reduce at least
some behavior problems. The dog will have some obedience commands, it
will be more likely to do things and be with the owners giving it more
exercise and socialization. Exercise, socialization and obedience
training are almost automatically going to reduce a lot of behavior
problems.
>Just because he's trained doesn't mean he isn't going to dig. I see
>nothing in Koehlers book that tells you the "correct" way to train a dog not to
>dig before you try the drowning method.
There's a little paragraph in there that tells you to go through all
the obedience steps before trying any of the last chance methods.
I've always criticized the book for it's format and writing. I drove
Avrama and Dogman nuts for nitpicking on everything from the format to
the organization to the content.
But you do have to put the book into some context. When it was first
written there weren't very many obedience classes around. Most people
wouldn't have even thought about it. There were some books on
obedience, but apparently most of them were atrociously written and
had poor descriptions of ineffective methods. Dogs were more
'disposable' and often were not even allowed in the house, they were
either in the backyard or just roamed the neighborhood. At night they
stayed in the garage or basement. Not exactly the most conducive
environment for good behavior.
Into this comes Koehler who at least has a logical progression for his
obedience lessons, with relatively clear descriptions and drawings of
methods that work. As Susan says, it was 'state of
the art for the time'. And then Koehler, recognizing that the
obedience lessons wouldn't stop all the behavioral problems, said,
before you kill the dog for digging up your garden, try this method.
I do understand that some people would rather kill the dog than
subject it to being dunked. Personally, I would tell people just to
bring the dog inside, but if someone says 'I'm not going to accept
holes in my yard and I'm not bringing the dog inside and I'm not
making landscaping changes to my yard for the dog. The dog either
stops digging holes or it goes to the pound (gets killed)', I would be
stumped on what to tell them. Do I tell them there may be a
possibility that they don't have to kill the dog or do I say this dog
is better off dead anyway?
I think Dogman said all that Koehler really did was take existing
methods and put them into some sort of recognizable order in a logical
format. It seems to speak to his influence that people still get all
worked up over Koehler, but I rarely hear cross words about
Kilcommons, McMains, Evans, Benjamin or Bauman. All of whom 'descend'
directly from Koehler.
I'm not going to try to 'defend' the methods used in the book. For
the most part, I don't even do the basic obedience stuff anymore the
way Koehler does. As for the 'drastic methods or death' situations,
I've never had to deal with that because, like most people here, I
would simply avoid putting the dog into a situation where the problem
arises.
I have found the general philosophy of training to be quite useful and
I recognize it in many of the postings in the newsgroup. A little
while ago, roo asked what the fuss was regarding Koehler since he/she
never heard anyone directly give reference to Koehler. I said on the
contrary, he gets referred to all the time, just not by name. And I
gave two examples, one with teaching Greyhounds/sighthounds how to
'Sit' and the other one with rapping a collie new to sheep to keep it
from chasing/biting the sheep. Obviously neither are taken exactly
from his book, but the general tone or philosophy is the same as in
his book.
Koehler and Bauman were the first two obedience books I read and for
me, it was something of a revelation. I did a lot more praising and a
lot less correcting and no more yelling. The more I read and
understood, the less force I used. It made a big difference in the
obedience and the couple of dogs I worked that way were never
intimidated into obedience, never had tails or ears down or any of the
other 'avoidance' behaviors. Granted, they were never really trained
to a very high level of obedience, but by 'pet dog' standards, they
were trained very adequately.
Your and Susan's experiences and observations about the obedience
classes and the effect is has on the dogs really makes me curious.
I've heard too many of these anecdotal stories to say that was a fluke
or the students weren't listening or weren't good trainers or the
instructors had no idea what they were talking about.
Unfortunately, I have absolutely no personal experience to which to
refer. It makes me wonder if the obedience classes twenty or thirty
years ago had a more 'positive' emphasis on training methods. And if
so, why did things change? Or did they really change?
My friend, who is a 'crossover' trainer, had the same experience with
her dogs that you had with your Dane. She's telling me how she was
taught to jerk the leash and force the dog into obedience. If the dog
doesn't 'Sit' immediately, then yank the dog into a 'Sit'. If the dog
doesn't go 'Down' immediately, then give a good hard jerk on the
leash, and so on. Nothing about praise or reward, all about harshness
and corrections.
For her, this is the traditional/Koehler method of training, all
punishment corrections, no reward, shouting at the dog, intimidating
them into obedience. I'm sitting there listening to this wondering
how I can read Koehler, how I can read Bauman, Benjamin, Evans,
McMains and Kilcommons and come up with something totally different.
How is it that I come up with a traditional method that has lots of
praise and rewards the dogs using very little jerking on the leash, no
yelling, no intimidation. Corrections are there, but they are not
punishments, they are interruptions of behavior or tell the dog
clearly and precisely 'No. You may not do that. Do this.'.
There's a disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it's me or what?
Ludwig Smith
Dog FAQS
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
Ludwig Smith
wrote:
>I am curious if anyone on this board knows, was
>Koehler born in Germany? Most of his methods
>seem very much like "old German" methods
>of training.
Koehler very pointedly tried to distance and distinguish his methods
from those of the 'old German' methods. He was quite miffed that some
people were comparing his methods as similar to those of the German
trainer, Colonel Most(?). How similar or dissimilar they are, I have
no idea.
roo
"Ludwig Smith" <top...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9daf4ukvbns8v3sqj...@4ax.com...
[snip]
[snip]
Hi Ludwig,
This is very interesting. Do you have time to explain a bit more (again)
about ways in which the general tone and philosophy of of some modern
trainers can be traced back to Koehler, please?
What you say about the context is important, and the same sort of discussion
cropped up over Barbara Woodhouse a little while back. The way dogs are kept
in rural Spain today is similar to the way you describe, ie dogs are more
disposable, run loose, and rarely get trained. I have a friend in a village
in Spain who is very keen on dogs. She has had several in the twenty years I
have known her, because, like most dogs in the village, they have been
allowed to run loose, so tend not to live long. Two were killed by traffic,
and another was stolen. Her current dog sleeps on her bed, and spends most
of the daytime with her at work - she owns a bar and a video club. So, in
the context of the village, she is very much a 'dog nut'. She really
couldn't understand why I spent time taking Rug to obedience classes and
agility. Her view was that you can be misled into believing the dog is
totally obedient, and that can be dangerous. She told me the story of a man
in the next village who trained his dog to do all sorts of activities, and
then the dog fell ill. The man nursed the dog devotedly, and it recovered.
Then one day the man beat the dog, and it killed him in retaliation.
There's a kind of natural selection in those villages. Dogs that chase cars
and rush up to bark at people don't survive. They get run over or beaten.
They aren't spayed and neutered, so breed freely. The ones that have
inappropriate behavior for that environment don't usually live long enough
to breed much. That's one reason why they tend to have quite well-behaved
dogs, despite not doing formal training. Even my 'dog nut' friend thought it
acceptable for a man to beat his dog, if the dog had done wrong - though she
has never beaten her dogs. I haven't read Koehler, but did used to watch
Barabara Woodhouse on TV, and her methods would be an improvement on what
goes on in the village.
Alikat
Ron Hardin
> > Koehler wants the dog to be around the house and possibly Schutzhund
> > does not.
>
> Did you miss the part where Gwen said "Schutzhund of that era"?
> The same could be said of a lot of field trainers of that era.
> The very fact that it is no longer a valid statement might indicate
> to you that just like Schutzhund and field training, obedience
> training has moved beyond the era of Koehler, for the betterment of
> all.
Koehler wanted the dog to be around the house in that era. A difference
from Schutzhund, I suggested.
Obedience training however has not moved beyond the era of Koehler
because I still use it, spotting the bogus aspirations of today's
trainers, as presumably others still do. Maybe we will die off
and then you will have won, at least until morality is rediscovered.
Amy Dahl
>
> I'm sitting there listening to this wondering
> how I can read Koehler, how I can read Bauman, Benjamin, Evans,
> McMains and Kilcommons and come up with something totally different.
> How is it that I come up with a traditional method that has lots of
> praise and rewards the dogs using very little jerking on the leash, no
> yelling, no intimidation. Corrections are there, but they are not
> punishments, they are interruptions of behavior or tell the dog
> clearly and precisely 'No. You may not do that. Do this.'.
>
Ludwig, my experience is a lot like yours. I use a lot of
elements of Koehler's method, and the corrections are few,
the praise is frequent, and the dogs are animated and willing.
I guess I will say that I have incorporated an "informative
correction," a token taking-up of slack in the lead, which
tells the dog "no, that wasn't right" without coming down on
him like a load of bricks.
I hope Lynn is reading this. Lynn, I saw what you wrote about
the turns in heeling. To me, that's the best part of the book.
Granted, this could be a retriever thing, but the dogs all
respond as though it's a terrific game. I try to take them
by surprise; they watch closely and zip around with me, and
every time they do, they win. As we progress in training,
and things get complicated, I incorporate sessions of the
heeling game as a reward for concentration.
Susan, my guess is that you did a good job with Justice.
I trained my first Chesapeake puppy by Koehler's book and
showed him in Novice when he was eight months old. He drew
a lot of admiration and on his third leg, when he got 195 1/2,
the judge was particularly admiring of "the quality of his
attention." Of course, the judge might have been prejudiced--
one of those who think the breed is impossible to train.
This wasn't all that long ago and modern obedience methods
were well established. My experience is that you can
animate a dog and bring out its enthusiasm and cooperation
using those techniques. I don't know if the difference in
the demeanor of the dog is a matter of the trainer's timing,
effective use of praise, reading the dog, or what it is.
Amy Dahl
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
You haven't seen some of the women I have in dogs and horses then. Quite
> disqusting to see a woman beating an animal with a rope for some slight
> misbehavior.
Not around horses often. I used to be fascinated by them. I now
have a great respect for horses but would not want to own one.
>
>
> Beth
> p.s. Gwen, there is book about Koehler and the animals that he trained for
> Disney. He actually may be the author. Very interesting book on how he
> trained a lot of what you saw. Most of it relied on the dogs have very solid
> obedience skills.
Thanks. I may have to find that book just to read.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
"Lynn K." wrote:
> I respect Joanne Plumb's work - but take a look at her tracking video.
> It's a good example of a training method that kills natural enthusiasm
> for the task.
>
> Lynn K.
Which one. The first session video is wonderful. I didn't ever see
the next step. I know someone that loves her methods and
her ScHI dog did excellent using this method. The video
I saw only allowed the dog to use natural enthusiasm.
No pointing at the tracks. No showing dog where to
go when they get lost, just standing with 3' lead and allowing
the dog to find the track again on his own. I would consider
that a dog doing his own problem solving and thus building
confidence. But I totally admit to being a novice or less.:(
Would you mind suggesting what you feel is a better
tracking video for Schutzhund purposes? Dildei maybe?
Thanks,
Gwen
Gwen Watson
> Lynn K. wrote:
>
> > Did you miss the part where Gwen said "Schutzhund of that era"?
Exactly Lynn!
The era I described kept the dogs out in the kennel just about
24/7 other then when on the training fields. Strangers and
or most people were not allowed to touch the dogs. The dogs
were to be handled strictly by the handler. Although obviously
the dog did have to have good manners around strangers
in that they would demonstrate no aggression. They had
to be able to safely and with nerves of steel walk through
a strange crowd to pass any of the Schutzhund titles. But
they were not family dogs. There sole purpose was for
a) breeding b) to get said handler and dog to Podium,
more or less.
Now I believe *many* good Schutzhund trainers are keeping
their dogs as house dogs and are letting them be
pets as well as potential Podium prospects. Of course
I do believe that *most* "National" winners, and other
Competition winners still more than likely come from
handlers who keep their dogs in kennels most of the
time. Such as Howie Rodriquez, Gary Hanrahan,
and many other top male trainers.
Gwen
Robin Nuttall
Ron Hardin wrote:
>
> Lynn K. wrote:
> > > Koehler wants the dog to be around the house and possibly Schutzhund
> > > does not.
> >
> > Did you miss the part where Gwen said "Schutzhund of that era"?
> > The same could be said of a lot of field trainers of that era.
> > The very fact that it is no longer a valid statement might indicate
> > to you that just like Schutzhund and field training, obedience
> > training has moved beyond the era of Koehler, for the betterment of
> > all.
>
> Koehler wanted the dog to be around the house in that era. A difference
> from Schutzhund, I suggested.
>
um, no. You didn't get Lynn's point. Schutzhund dogs of THIS era are,
indeed, around the house. Very few schutzhund people I know, with titled
dogs, keep their dogs in a kennel. They're in the house and are just as
much pets as anybody else.
Jerry Howe
"Bethgsd" <bet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020117205758...@mb-mh.aol.com...
From our koehler book:
Jerry Howe
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.02011...@posting.google.com...
From our koehler book:
Jerry Howe
minutes...
"Pat Meadows" <p...@meadows.pair.com> wrote in message
news:2o1e4u07vt059luol...@4ax.com...
> On 17 Jan 2002 16:19:42 GMT, dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716)
> wrote:
>
> >>*Is there* a way to train a dog not to dig?
> >>
> >
> >There are methods people try, but they usually aren't successful.
Humane
> >methods, that is :)
> >
> >Digging is the one behavior that you really have to pick your battle
with. Me,
> >my backyard is just that, a plot of yard in the back. My dogs don't
dig, but
> >they do create trails and such. Nothing fancy back there, gardenwise
though.
> >
>
> I don't have anything fancy in the dog's yard (back yard)
> either - but we do need GRASS there, as opposed to a quarter
> acre of mud. Terra can easily dig a hole which is about 2
> feet across and 2 feet deep in about 5 unsupervised minutes.
> I cannot have nothing but a sea of mud, and that's what we'd
> have if we let her do it.
>
> What we plan to do (in spring, the ground is frozen now and
> it's no problem) is to fence off the deck. Most of the deck
> has railing, we only need to add a little bit of fencing.
>
> The deck is HUGE, at least as large as our house (about 650
> sf), and a large part of it is roofed (shade). I will let
> the dogs out on the deck anytime they want to be outdoors
> and they have plenty of room to play there. But I'll have
> to supervise them when they're in the yard.
>
> Maybe not sit out on the deck every second they're in the
> yard, but keep an eye on them quite closely - I can see them
> from the kitchen window, so I could be working in the
> kitchen and watching the dogs too.
>
> This is a really heartbreaking thing to do: but I can't see
> any way around it.
>
> Pat
Jerry Howe
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.02011...@posting.google.com...
> dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote in message
news:<20020116184344...@mb-ch.aol.com>...
> > I recall Dogman was a big Koehler fan,
Yes, we miss the smell of Lysol and anchovie... don't we. Wonder HOWE
COME he ain't helpin us no moore here with his superb Sage advice.
> > and he always told me to read the book
> > before I condemned the guy. Well......
That's because koehler uses powerful psychological techniques to scare
the reader into believing they've got to do horrrendous things to their
dogs in response to the dog's INTENTIONAL DEFIANCE to the "trainer's"
AUTHORITY.
> Yeah, but I also believe Dogman was careful to state that you should
> NOT read Koehler as a training manual or how-to book.
Because it got Fritz DEAD? Because it's got MILLIIONS of dogs DEAD and
their handlers and families attacked because of the cruel insanity he
teaches?
> I know I'm very careful to say that whenever I suggest someone
actually read
> his work instead of reacting to a 2nd hand version.
Yes, we know. That's HOWE COME you got that nifty moniker, lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn.
> What I find most ironic is that Koehler was revolutionary for his
time -
Yes, he was INSANE and CRUEL.
> as an advocate of a MORE HUMANE method of training dogs than what had
> been common practice before him.
CARE TO GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF ANY TRAINING METHOD MOORE CRUEL? One
example would be NICE. koehler shoots dogs with BB's and slingshot and
beats and hangs them, just like you do.
> His stress on fairness and responsibility
Wonderful, huh?
> was almost unheard of before then.
Yes, INDEED.
> Clearly, it's a progression,
No. It's SADISM. That's HOWE COME cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM, hold
it's muzzle closed and tell IT to quit moaning" mooreon quotes him on
her faqs page at k9web to shove your dog's head into a hole he's dug
you've filled with water.
HOWE do you justify his instructions to return to beat the dog every
twenty minutes for the same HOWESbreaking misake he's tied IT next to.
All of these little ISSUES are not little issues, they're INSANITY.
> and that's why almost every trainer I know
"Birds of a feather...," don't you know. You and your pals are dog
abusers, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, and I've proven it.
Most of our pals here are shock and pronged spiked pinch choke collar
trainers who follow the koehler method but don't consider themselves
koehler trainers cause koehler never had the pleasure of owning a shock
or pronged spiked pinch choke collar.
> who has been seriously training for more than 15 or 20 years will
> acknowledge Koehler's contributions,
MILLIONS of DEAD and FRIGHTENED DOGS. I've been in this racket nearly
forty years, and you're a lying dog abusing Thug.
> while being sure to warn against using many of
> his specific training techniques.
Is that so? Where have you told us that PRIOR to Jerry Howe coming here
to blow your goddamned cover? YOUR koehler books clearly warn of NOT
BREAKING the "PROGRESSION," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, just as my
manual does. Following bits and pieces of a METHOD is NOT an option, or
there is no METHOD, is there, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
> Koehler had some good things to say.
So did HITLER. Care to QUOTE some of the good things?
> That doesn't mean I'm about to put a long line on a dog to teach the
recall
As you do and teach. I'll provide the original posts if you'd LIKE.
FurtherMOORE, you tell our readers to put the long line on a pronged
spiked pinch choke collar on the NEW FOSTER CARE dog in his crate to
jerk and choke the new foster care dog to keep IT quiet in his new
foster care crate.
Care for me to provide the original posts, LYING "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn???
I'll be glad to pull your original posts on this and many other of your
"issues," like the three contradictory pronged collar method posts of
yours...and reeling the dog in on a long line to force the come command
and ADVISING us to jerk and choke and shock and spray aversives in our
dog's face to make IT friendly with HOWES kats. I'll be THRILLED to pull
up your original post again, AND provide YOUR DENIAL of posting that
crap to a NEW FOSTER CARE giver right here you miserable lying dog
abusing s.o.b.
> or do his quick turn shit on heeling,
As you use.
> let alone the head in water stuff for digging.
That's on your pals cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon's faqs page
at k9 web, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn... and you KNOW it. k9web is due
for a little HEAT from Jerry.
> I have a very difficult time understanding why people can't comprehend
that
> those are not mutually exclusive opinions.
Because it's IN the METHOD. Deviating from the METHOD is CONSTANTLY
WARNED AGAINST throughout the koehler books, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn. HANGING DOGS IS PART OF THE METHOD, or it wouldn't be IN the
METHOD, would it?
Remember not being able to even find the chapter on HANGIN when I asked
you to discuss it? You couldn't find it anywhere it your koehler book...
In fact, when Fritz HIT THE WALL, Robert didn't see the value of HANGING
his dog repeatedly to break him down to be FRIENDLY and that's what your
pal lyingdogDUMMY thought was being UNFAIR.
> Lynn K.
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
Robert Crim writes:
>Terri
"Jerome Bigge" <jbi...@novagate.net> wrote in message
news:v3ba0ucam1kr4moca...@4ax.com...
>
> I've read over Jerry Howe's "Wit's End
> Dog Training Manual" now several times.
> And while everyone will get something a
> bit different from it, I found that his "hot &
> cold" exercise (first part of manual) is in
> my opinion the "key" to the entire thing.
> Once you have taught your dog (puppy)
> to keep an "eye on you", then the rest of
> its training (come, etc) becomes much
> easier. Additionally Jerry does point
> out "why" dogs do the things that they
> do. So even if you don't like Jerry's
> posts, you might like to download his
> manual (it's free, after all!) and give it
> a look over. You might learn something.
> It's at "http://www.doggydoright.com"
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu9...@4ax.com...
> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the
> literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make
> the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice,
just by
> taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The
pup
> got scared and just wanted to stay away from me.
> That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits' End Dog
> Training
> manual -- that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy.
> The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this: make yourself
> the center of your puppy's world -- his personal Lord Jesus.
Never
> give him a reason to fear you or think you're angry. Love the
heck
> out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog.
> This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do anything I want
> her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent,
> and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship
> with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
> Charlie
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
Jerry Howe
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.02011...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Howe
picked and tested dog Jive won't work a real sar job but gets high
scores in the ring??? Hmm? He's "ring wise" to RL WORK. j;~)
"Tricia9999" <trici...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117152005...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> >I really thought what I would see in a head to head comparison of
good
> >trainers with good timing would be very similar regardless of the
method
> >used. I always thought Koehler techniques were fair because they
stressed
> >that the dog understand what was expected. I was wrong. Ron can talk
> >citizenship all he wants to - what I saw was robotic methodical
behavior
> >chains, along with a squelching of individual personality. I saw all
the mat
> >sniffing and yawning and turning the head to avoid eye contact in a
> >different light, and I was really shocked.
> >
> >---
> >Susan Fraser, owned and trained by
> >HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH, and
> >HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong MH **
Jerry Howe
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C4732DD...@ig.utexas.edu...
>
>
> Tricia9999 wrote:
>
> > Nice observations. Fact is, some people are aiming for the robotic
methodical
> > squelched personality, not mention the fear in the dog. Some people
enjoy that
> > power relationship and the intimidation factor. There are some
traditional OB
> > trainers in my area and the dogs are often fearful and tentative.
They get
> > through the routines in the ring, but it's a sad sight.
>
> Yep I seen it as well. One of the reasons I had become
> frustrated searching for a good trainer. I have
> decided my best bet is to obtain many various
> training videos and utilize techniques from
> the ones I feel comfortable with.
>
>
> Gwen
>
>
Jerry Howe
can't HURT him on a real life search...
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.02011...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Howe
"Ludwig Smith" <top...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:g2gf4uka0v8qsbiha...@4ax.com...
DogStar716
>doesn't go 'Down' immediately, then give a good hard jerk on the
>leash, and so on. Nothing about praise or reward, all about harshness
>and corrections.
No, no, no, my dog did get praised. But the emphasis is on CORRECTION to get
the desired behavior, not REWARD. It's Koehler.
And as for Koehler, I understand he was the "first" trainer who had a method he
chose to write about. I understand his methods worked, because I know from
experience using his modified method that they it does work.
But, knowing what I know now, his theory in general is very outdated, and IMO,
wrong. I don't believe dogs are resentful creatures who don't want to be
trained. I don't believe that if a dog has a good obedience foundation that
he's less likely to dig, or chew inappropriate items, or take food off the
ground. I am glad that there are other options than setting a dog up to be
shocked by a live wire because he ate some food that was lying on the ground.
And I, if I were living back then, would not haver done any of the harsher
things he recommends on the basis of common sense.
>For her, this is the traditional/Koehler method of training, all
>punishment corrections, no reward, shouting at the dog, intimidating
>them into obedience.
I think you misunderstood.
>There's a disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it's me or what?
Again, you misunderstood. When I was training my Dane, he was not food
motivated in the least, and I had to rely on praise. Besides, back then and
with my first instructor, you didn't use food. I lavished him with praise when
he did it right, but I also lavished him with collar corrections. He learned,
he got his CD, but the training was correction based, and for me and my giant
dog, was stressful (now that I look back on it).
With the way I train now, collar corrections are pretty obsolete, my negative
voice sound (AH!) is enough for my current two dogs in training to tell them
they've done wrong. I did use a prong collar with my GSD in the beginning so
he wouldn't pull. I never used it for correction, it was his choice whether
to pull or not. He chose not to, and I used voice and treats to keep him at
heel. He was offleash in no time.
So, in conclusion, I guess what I really wanted to say about Koehler is that I
finally read the book, and I now understand what all the fuss was/is about.
His methods may have been the forerunner for the traditional trainers, but
again, I'm glad training has come beyond that.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
Jerry Howe
Jerry Howe
I just love to see dog lovers discuss dog training... " There's a
disconnect somewhere and I don't know if it's me or what?"
The disconnect is REALITY. You're a bunch of dog abusing lying Thugs
trying to justify hurting dogs because you don't understand HOWE to
handle or train them.
I'm not going to bother going through your post below cause it just
CHUCK full of crap... the other trainers mentioned in your post are also
dog abusers like you and your Thug pals here ludwig...
"Ludwig Smith" <top...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9daf4ukvbns8v3sqj...@4ax.com...
Jerry Howe
basis of common sense"
But you'll swear by everything else he says based on what??? HIS COMMON
SENSE METHODS?
bye PEOPLE. j;~(
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020118112943...@mb-mv.aol.com...
Rebecca Ore
> So, in conclusion, I guess what I really wanted to say about Koehler is that I
> finally read the book, and I now understand what all the fuss was/is about.
> His methods may have been the forerunner for the traditional trainers, but
> again, I'm glad training has come beyond that.
I think it's interesting that breeds that were considered not at all
candidates for CD and higher type obediance work (the sighthounds,
terriers) when I was a child are now getting those degrees and are
being recommended as pets (I never remember greyhounds being
recommended as pets -- Scottish deerhounds, yes).
Sort of as with people -- some people are tolerant of a variety of
ways of correcting them and absent actual abuse, can grow up
reasonable people whether they're spanked or not. Others will wilt if
they're physically corrected and need praise to do well. Others need
to be physically corrected in a non-abusive way. Most people do okay
even if the rearing system is sloppy.
--
Rebecca Ore
Rebecca Ore
You're working with a breed that will take a lot of guff from the
people it's bonded to and which tends to be one of those recommended
for obediance work when I was in my teens and first reading about dogs
seriously.
Again, what works with Dobes and GSDs won't work with some breeds
which these days do compete in obedience quite well, when trained in
different ways.
Someone went head to head with my terrier mutt on the "sit" command
before I got him. It made him go nuts when he heard that word. He
also ended up in the pound from being out of the street.
(The present rescue never heard the word "no" before I got him, so one
can err on the other extreme, too, but Kit also gets rewarded for
coming away from temptations).
--
Rebecca Ore
Jerry Howe
"Robin Nuttall" <rob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C4852B9...@home.com...
Jerry Howe
seminar yet?
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C482872...@ig.utexas.edu...
Jerry Howe
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3C482460...@ig.utexas.edu...
Jerry Howe
PEACE."
"Ron Hardin" <rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C47F3...@mindspring.com...
Jerry Howe
denies. It's in the archives... bye j;~)
"Melanie L Chang" <mlc...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:a29l6h$k88$4...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> Lynn K. (jav...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> : Koehler had some good things to say. That doesn't mean I'm about to
put
> : a long line on a dog to teach the recall
>
> Why not? I didn't use one for Solo, but I know a lot of people who
have
> used a long line and gotten good results.
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Melanie Lee Chang | Border Collies are
> Departments of Anthropology and Biology | phylogenetically
bizarre.
> University of Pennsylvania |
> mlc...@sas.upenn.edu | - Coppinger and
Coppinger
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--