demoting a dog
Diane
sounds resonable
> . Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's described in the
> next bullet].
>
> . Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while Dog eats. Then,
> Owner can reward Dog with morsels of food upon successfully completing
> commands (sit, stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
Never, ever heard of this one. I am not a trainer or handler, just a
doggie owner. How is not touching the doggie at all (except for
feeding) supposed to let doggie know that he/she is lower in the pack??
> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
Again, never ever heard of this one. Eye contact between me and my
Nikki is VERY important. As soon as she does something wrong, all that
is needed is the *evil-eye* look from mommy to make her understand she
did something wrong. In retrospect though, I am not having the same
problems with my doggie either.
> . Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner can only remove Dog
> from situation.
How is doggie supposed to know he/she did something wrong if no
correction is given at the time of the situation and is just simply
removed??
> . Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except when Dog is
> crated. (The promise collar is like a horse collar--it goes around the
> muzzle and up through the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the
> collar often.
I agree here. If doggie is agressive and lunges towards strangers, the
collar will help since the owner can grab the collar (hopefully attached
to a short lead in which the owner can grab) thereby redirecting doggies
head so doggie can't lunge and/or snap. I use the *promise* collar for
walking my Nikki...has improved her dramatically with the awful pulling
problem we had with her.
> Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this boot
> camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the following
> questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
>
> 2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
>
> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>
> 4. Is there success in the long term with such training?
>
> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
Like I said before, I am not a trainer nor a handler, just a doggie
owner so my personal feelings are quite evident if you haven't noticed
them already ;o) I would be just as concerned as your friend if this
was the most appropriate action to take given the level of affection
that owner and doggie shared previously. I, too, would be interested to
hear comments from professionals who have had experience with either
this type of training or this type of problem.
Diane...Nikki's Mom
;o)
sz...@my-dejanews.com
b...@sei.cmu.edu (Barbara White) wrote:
[ ... snip ... ]
> Specialist gave Owner a plan for how to "demote" Dog into a
> less-superior pack position. Owner basically has a two-week long
The quickest way to 'demote' the dog is to run through a battery
of standard commands - sit, down, stay, etc. -- several times
during the day. Also, never let the dog the walk ahead of you.
Finally, feed it last.
> program to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
>
> . Dog sleeps crated at night in friend's room at night.
>
I would remove the dog to another room.
> . Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's
> described in the next bullet].
I disagree.
>
> . Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while
> Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog with morsels
> of food upon successfully completing commands (sit,
> stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
When I perform a 'boot camp' refresher (for example, with the
resident dogs, when a new dog arrives), it's more than 2-3/day.
Also, long stay's are important, IMO.
>
> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>
This is incorrect, IMO: the alpha must always keep eye contact.
> . Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner
> can only remove Dog from situation.
>
This makes no sense, IMO. Without a correction, the dog cannot
learn anything from the experience.
> . Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except
> when Dog is crated. (The promise collar is like a
> horse collar--it goes around the muzzle and up through
> the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the collar
> often.
I disagree: why wear it if the two of them are not going out?
>
> Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this
> boot camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
Boot camp is important for dominant dogs, IMO: for example, when
I took in Rocky the Rottie. Two hours per day, plus 4 on weekend
days, for just 2 weeks, worked magic.
>
> 2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
>
One way to signal displeasure to the dog is to ignore it: this works
great with 'human appendage' dogs like GR's.
> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>
I doubt it: the dog will know that the owner is the alpha, for sure.
But, unless the dog is socialized to outsiders - human & canine -
I do not think so.
> 4. Is there success in the long term with such training?
>
It is a short-term bootcamp. Depending upon how much 'alphaness'
the owner displays in the future, will determine if future
repetitions are required, IMO.
> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
>
It should never really stop, IMO.
[ ... snip ... ]
- Steven & Cashew + Memphis + Rocky + Cubby + Fred
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Paulette B. Nolan
Owner basically has a two-week long program
to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
Tow weeks, huh? Wow!!
> Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for
>while Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog
>with morsels of food upon successfully
>completing commands (sit, stay, etc). (Owner
>performs this food training 2-3 times each
>day.)
>. Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>. Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up,
>Owner can only remove Dog from situation.
> Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times
>except when Dog is crated. (The promise
>collar is like a horse collar--it goes around the
>muzzle and up through the back of the ears.)
I snipped a lot of theis nonsense as I do not agree with "any of it".
This "specialist" sounds like he came from "The Dog Who Loved Too Much"
Dr. Dodson? Tufts University,school of training..
In one word it SUCKS!!!!
I have had a lot of these dogs come to me after being "trained" and oh,
yes, usually the dog gets put on Prozac too!
Has that been mentioned yet?
>Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, >so to Owner, this boot
camp period feels
>horrible and inhumane.
Get some other help, Please??
Where do you live??
> Owner has the following >questions:
>1. Does anyone have experience with this type
>of training?
Yes... Bad experience.. (
>2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders
>if she's just applying human emotions to this
>process, which is supposed to be good for
>Dog. What do you think?
The training is weird!!!!
I think it should be "outlawed"
How long has this "specialist" been "helping"dogs?
>3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog
>who is not so agitated when strangers or other >dogs approach?
No way!! Just a more "coo coo "dog!
>4. Is there success in the long term with such >training?
I doubt it...
>5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume
>their old Dog-Owner relationship (touching,
>patting, playing, etc)?
If she stops this stuff.
If not, I believe the dog is going to be given up, I'm sorry....
Paulette~
A dogs life is too short...
their only fault really......
.
Paulette's Christmas Pictures
http://home.i1.net/~dogman/paulette.htm
star chavez
On 22 Dec 1998, Barbara White wrote:
>
> Last month, I posted seeking advice on behalf of a friend, whose
> dog acts aggressively/territorially with strangers and with other
> dogs. Friend wants to stop this behavior.
>
> I received a wealth of responses from many kind people who
> basically said the same thing -- see a behavior trainer that
> specializes in such problems. Friend did this -- Dog and Owner
> went to see a Behavioral Specialist, who gave Friend lots of
> advice.
>
> Specialist mentioned that during Dog's puppyhood, Owner's vet
> gave poor advice to Owner--Vet recommended that Dog have no
> contact with other dogs until the 9th month, when Dog's
> antibodies (or was it the immunizations?) would kick in and
> bolster Dog's immune system. Dog had no health problems; Vet
> simply thought that this was good routine behavior. Behavior
> Specialist believes that this was not healthy for Dog, who has
> since not learned how to act properly in public and who has
> assumed the wrong roles in the Dog-Owner relationship.
>
> The problem? ...when strangers approach, Dog barks/lunges/snaps.
> Dog demonstrated this behavior quite adequately for Behavior
> Specialist. Dog is aggressive with some (but not all) of
> Owner's friend's and family. Specialist analyzed Dog/Owner and
> determined that Dog perceives Owner as pack-lead most of the
> time and sometimes, Dog perceives himself as co-pack-lead or
> lone pack-lead, and that's the stuff that Owner must correct.
>
> Specialist gave Owner a plan for how to "demote" Dog into a
> less-superior pack position. Owner basically has a two-week long
> program to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
When my guy was a young lad, we were given a similiar plan too...Sometimes
called: NILIF (nothing in life is free) program..It amounts to the dog
relying totally on the owner for everything, and owner can do what owner
wants to do and should be allowed to do, as owner is alpha. (again, ours
was similiar but BF had to do this with our dog as he was accepting my
position as alpha..but the BF was Omega ;)..He would not let BF on the
couch and would snap if he came near him...I could do *nothing* with my
dog during this two week period :(..BUt it worked!
Read on:
>
> . Dog sleeps crated at night in friend's room at night.
Sounds o.k---I don't crate..so it translated to off the bed--to on the
floor...(I would crate though if your friends dog sleeps on the bed
now---especially if she may have a problem getting him off the bed--you
don't want a challenge! THe bed is the most exalted position..and while my
BF could not get him off--I simply did not let him on--This was a
variation and No was the only word I said to said dog during this period.
>
> . Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's
> described in the next bullet].
>
> . Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while
> Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog with morsels
> of food upon successfully completing commands (sit,
> stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
>
Sounds o.k, as the whole idea is to not have contact with the dog unless
you are giving commands .. The alpha dog in a real pack does not dole out
affection or anything *without* getting something in return..IF youare
petting your dog all day long, and he has an ego complex, he is going to
think he is pretty special.Only the alpha gets face licks for nothing!
> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>
This is to avoid a challenge. I am sure you know that the staring contest
is a fight for dominance in the canine world...IF you have a dominance
problem, you had better not start something you can't finish (at first).
Once she has it down pat, her submissive (to her) dog will look away when
she looks at him. ALthough I will add my two cups here....Me and my dog
have a special eye dance (I am sure we all do)..After he looks away once,
he will look back, dart away..and then he is free to stare...then he will
lick my face very gentle while looking (just to let me know he knows who I
am)...Also, when we are in training, he knows "look" means "Stop! eye
contact quick--no distractions!"
> . Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner
> can only remove Dog from situation.
>
I don't remember this one--I do remember that we had to remove anything
that would create a challenge at first...This is probably along the same
lines--again, don't start anything where your dog may win! This is
especially true if she is a little wary of the dog..You have to assume
confidence (even if you don't feel it---try hard)...Also, negative
attention can sometimes translate as better than no attention at all.
> . Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except
> when Dog is crated. (The promise collar is like a
> horse collar--it goes around the muzzle and up through
> the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the collar
> often.
>
Good idea, IMHO..as it gives her more control
>
> Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this
> boot camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
>
As mentioned.
> 2. The trai
ning seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
Actually, I think its more like applying some strict doggy rules/pack
hierarchy.
>
> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>
You know what---I don't know that one...It may cause the dog to rely more
on her leader, which *may* take some of the defense strategies off the
dogs shoulders. Anyone else?
> 4. Is there success in the long term with
such training? >
In our situation, it worked beautifully--dog accepts said BF as above him
in pack..
> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
>
This isn't usually a long-term strict plan--BUT, it may need to be
reviewed every once in awhile to re-establish humans dominance..IT depends
on how well the dog accepts the new order--(I would suggest that some dogs
need to be reminded of this all the time, some don't ever----Many *want*
the human to be the leader because this reduces the workload for
them!)WHat kind of dog is it?
>
I want to thank everyone who sent mail and offered advice and
> support last month. Your help meant the world to my friend, who
> does not have internet access. If you have additional comments
> about this approach, please contact me (b...@sei.cmu.edu) or post
> to the group. Many thanks...
>
Again, I am not a trainer....Just a regular human bean who went through
something similiar. Since this process, I have read tons, worked alot with
my dog and enjoy every moment of him even more. >
>
>
>
Barbara White
I've read each of them to my friend, who is very
appreciative. Thanks, also, for the information that many
of you included about why you disagreed with what my
friend's behaviorist suggested. We really appreciate time
and help.
In my post, I neglected to mention three points:
. Dog is a female german shepard, about 14 months old.
. Dog slept in the bed with Owner [until the boot camp
training started]
. Dog has not acted aggressively with Owner; Owner
has never had difficulty feeding or taking food away
from Owner.
Thanks, again, for all of the help.
Barbara
Stacey Curtis
about others' training techniques. We all know that you disagree strongly
with Dr. Dodson's approach, and it seems that because this trainer has an
approach that sounds similar to you (I have no idea if the techniques are
similar at all), you assume that he's a non-specialist with little
experience who produces "coo-coo" dogs and whose techniques should be
outlawed. That seems a bit far-fetched to me. The only other poster who
I've read criticize Dodson's techniques, btw, has been Dog Game Superstar,
someone else whose opinions I have come to regard as not to my tastes.
(This is how I choose to phrase my criticisms...it clearly reflects
disapproval, but I acknowledge that it's not an objective fact, just my
opinion based on reading his words, not on knowing him well.)
Although I hadn't before heard of the non-touching or non-eye-contact
parts of this, I'd first be curious to see what the trainer desribed was
the purpose and philosophy behind the suggestions before criticizing them.
The parts about crating in the bedroom, obedience drills, and keeping a
halter on at all times sound very logical.
Whether you like it or not, Dr. Dodson is one of the leading experts in
the field of compulsions. I've concluded that he's worth talking to about
my obsessive dog, who has potentially dangerous compulsions that standard
obedience classes have been unable to correct. I enjoy reading the
training philosophies of C.W. Meisterfeld, Ian Dunbar, and Dr. Dodson, and
from what I've seen so far, would lump them into the same class of
experienced, qualified behaviorists. They specialize in different types of
dog, certainly, and Dr. Dodson is rather a psychiatrist (as opposed to a
psychologist) for some dogs, while the other trainers listed are usually
not.
Every dog needs a different approach; hence, the need for individual
behaviorists and the importance of seeing a dog in action before really
being able to judge it.
What I'm really asking for here (and I know I'm wasting my breath here on
Usenet, but I feel compelled to try anyway) is some civility and respect
for others' opinions. I think it's fine to say that in one's _opinion_,
another training technique is not a good one, but I can't respect anyone
who says very sensationally "I'm right and you're [or he's, she's] is
wrong, unqualified, evil, lunatic, inexperienced," whatever. A credible
trainer (or a credible anybody) is more diplomatic than that. It's exactly
this "I know _everything_, I am super" attitude that makes me think "oh,
no; another tunnel-visioned extremist." I just can't take anyone with that
attitude seriously, but it strikes me from the number of posts of yours
that I see here, and the suggestion in many of them that you are a trainer
of some sort, that you want to be taken seriously. Just food for thought.
-Stacey
"Paulette B. Nolan" wrote:
> Owner basically has a two-week long program
> to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
> <snip>
>
> Tow weeks, huh? Wow!!
>
> > Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for
> >while Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog
> >with morsels of food upon successfully
> >completing commands (sit, stay, etc). (Owner
> >performs this food training 2-3 times each
> >day.)
> >. Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
> >. Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up,
> >Owner can only remove Dog from situation.
> > Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times
> >except when Dog is crated. (The promise
> >collar is like a horse collar--it goes around the
> >muzzle and up through the back of the ears.)
>
> I snipped a lot of theis nonsense as I do not agree with "any of it".
> This "specialist" sounds like he came from "The Dog Who Loved Too Much"
> Dr. Dodson? Tufts University,school of training..
>
> In one word it SUCKS!!!!
>
> I have had a lot of these dogs come to me after being "trained" and oh,
> yes, usually the dog gets put on Prozac too!
> Has that been mentioned yet?
>
> >Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, >so to Owner, this boot
> camp period feels
> >horrible and inhumane.
>
> Get some other help, Please??
> Where do you live??
>
> > Owner has the following >questions:
> >1. Does anyone have experience with this type
> >of training?
>
> Yes... Bad experience.. (
>
> >2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders
> >if she's just applying human emotions to this
> >process, which is supposed to be good for
> >Dog. What do you think?
>
> The training is weird!!!!
> I think it should be "outlawed"
> How long has this "specialist" been "helping"dogs?
>
> >3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog
> >who is not so agitated when strangers or other >dogs approach?
>
> No way!! Just a more "coo coo "dog!
>
> >4. Is there success in the long term with such >training?
>
> I doubt it...
>
> >5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume
> >their old Dog-Owner relationship (touching,
> >patting, playing, etc)?
>
> If she stops this stuff.
> If not, I believe the dog is going to be given up, I'm sorry....
>
> Paulette~
>
> A dogs life is too short...
> their only fault really......
> .
> Paulette's Christmas Pictures
> http://home.i1.net/~dogman/paulette.htm
--
.
Andrea Stone
The advice given sounds fine, dependant on the situation. To me, it sounds
as though the behaviorist believes that the owner may be slightly fearful of
the dog, and is avoiding conflict. I'd say, given certain situations, this
sounds just fine.
With a confident, exerienced owner, perhaps avoiding eye contact, all
petting except as a reward for the fulfillment of a command, and corrections
would not be necessary. For a dog with dominance issues, and a slightly
insecure owner this would be on target, IME.
Negative attention is still attention, and better than nothing to some dogs.
If the owner is not up to the challenge should the dog question her
authority when she corrects it, then what? Back to square one. Better she
ignore the unwanted behavior, than get into a situation that she cannot
handle at this time. To get rid of the unwanted behavior, rather than just
let the dog do it, is to give the animal a mutually exclusive command.
Rather than yelling at the dog for jumping up, for example, have him sit,
and reward him for complying. The dog will learn that sitting is beneficial.
Jumping up has no reward, therefore, no reason to do it.
>> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>>
>
>This is incorrect, IMO: the alpha must always keep eye contact.
Again, what if the owner is not equipped to deal with the animal, and he
challenges her? Better to not invite disaster until the owner has the tools
to deal with it.
>This makes no sense, IMO. Without a correction, the dog cannot
>learn anything from the experience.
Not true. I don't have to correct my dog for bad behavior in order for him
to learn. Dogs will do what is rewarding. If there is another behavior that
is more rewarding than what he's doing, he'll switch to the more profitable
one. It's just a different type of strategy. And works really well with some
dogs.Correction is a good tool, but not necessary 100% of the time. And for
owners that don't know how to do it, correction is ineffective.
>> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
>> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>>
>
>I doubt it: the dog will know that the owner is the alpha, for sure.
>But, unless the dog is socialized to outsiders - human & canine -
>I do not think so.
I agree to a point. As the training progresses, the behaviorist will
probably have her start working outside the home. The dog is likely taking
cues from the owner, and/or taking control of the situation. Once the dog
sees the owner as Alpha, it will wait to see how she responds, and act
accordingly. Or is more likely to. Most dogs do not want to be in charge. I
beleive that there are very few truely dominant dogs, and most are relieved
when you take that responsibility away from them. They just know that
*someone* has to be in charge. The training should really continue to
outside the home. I'm sure that the behaviorist will introduce these
situations once s/he feels the owner is progressing.
>
>> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
>> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
>> etc)?
>>
>
>It should never really stop, IMO.
Yes and no, IMO. No, the "old" relationship should never resume. That
relationship is the problem. There will need to be a new one. Yes, the owner
will, once the rules are laid down, be able to show more affection toward
the dog. However, she will need to always remember that she is Alpha, and
what she says goes. No exceptions. She will need to progress with her
training, and have a take it as it comes attitude. With some dogs, you can
never let up. Others you can once they get the idea. It really depends on
the two of them, and the type of new relationship they are able to forge.
--
Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis + one Ibizan Hound
http://www.premier1.net/~saorsa
Diane
months. Guess that goes to show not to judge too quickly. Anyway, at
that age, it shouldn't be that hard to retrain puppy to the correct
behavior; it may take a while, no matter what method is used in the end,
but it shouldn't be as difficult as trying to retrain, say, a 5yr old
doggie. Good Luck.
Diane...Nikki's Mom
;o)
star chavez
Cheers,C.
Chris Kosmakos
: Friend did this -- Dog and Owner
: went to see a Behavioral Specialist, who gave Friend lots of
: advice.
Lots of good advice. It sounds to me like your friend found a
good behaviorist/trainer. The initial boot camp period is necessary
is some cases to reset the relationship. It must be strictly
adhered to to erase the dog's assumptions/presumptions. After the
initial period, a healthier relationship can be rebuilt. Your
friend needs to recognize that this is a very temporary thing, needed
to undo the prior damage. Commonly known as NILIF (Nothing in Life is
Free), there is a similar program, with very good explanations of the
rationale behind it, in Job Michael Evans' "Pooches, People, and
Problems".
Your friend's chances of turning this young GSD around and into a dog
that can be trusted around other people are directly proportional to
her consistency in carrying out the program.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
star chavez
I find your comments very extreme here, and did not give enough of an
in-depth commentary to really see where you are coming from ...You seem
disdainful, without any prior experience with this program.
I take offence to the "coo-coo" comment, and the idea that this woman
will have to give her dog up if she tries this out. That *is* whacked out.
As mentioned, I followed a similiar program and for our particular
situation, it worked wonders. You seem to come out of nowhere with your
accusations, when you
don't even know or understand the training needs of this particular dog..
My two cups worth,C.
sz...@my-dejanews.com
"Andrea Stone" <andrea...@sierra.com> wrote:
> Steven,
> The advice given sounds fine, dependant on the situation. To me, it sounds
> as though the behaviorist believes that the owner may be slightly fearful of
> the dog, and is avoiding conflict. I'd say, given certain situations, this
> sounds just fine.
>
> With a confident, exerienced owner, perhaps avoiding eye contact, all
> petting except as a reward for the fulfillment of a command, and corrections
> would not be necessary. For a dog with dominance issues, and a slightly
> insecure owner this would be on target, IME.
I agree that if we do not know the owner, and have not seen her in
action, then much of what we say probably relates on how we
ourselves act and interact with our dogs...
The insecure (not 'alpha' enough) owner may be wary of the jaw filled
with large teeth and back down and never be able to re-gain
authority.
>
> Negative attention is still attention, and better than nothing to some dogs.
> If the owner is not up to the challenge should the dog question her
> authority when she corrects it, then what? Back to square one. Better she
> ignore the unwanted behavior, than get into a situation that she cannot
> handle at this time. To get rid of the unwanted behavior, rather than just
> let the dog do it, is to give the animal a mutually exclusive command.
>
> Rather than yelling at the dog for jumping up, for example, have him sit,
> and reward him for complying. The dog will learn that sitting is beneficial.
> Jumping up has no reward, therefore, no reason to do it.
I would call having the dog sit instead of jump a 'correction',
but you that's just words.
>
> >> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
> >>
> >
> >This is incorrect, IMO: the alpha must always keep eye contact.
>
> Again, what if the owner is not equipped to deal with the animal, and he
> challenges her? Better to not invite disaster until the owner has the tools
> to deal with it.
Again, this is me thinking about the 5 dogs I live with...You are
correct if you imply that eventually the owner will use eye contact.
>
> >This makes no sense, IMO. Without a correction, the dog cannot
> >learn anything from the experience.
>
> Not true. I don't have to correct my dog for bad behavior in order for him
> to learn. Dogs will do what is rewarding. If there is another behavior that
> is more rewarding than what he's doing, he'll switch to the more profitable
> one. It's just a different type of strategy. And works really well with some
> dogs.Correction is a good tool, but not necessary 100% of the time. And for
> owners that don't know how to do it, correction is ineffective.
Again, to me, this is just side-stepping the problem...Showing the
dog what you want done, then having it perform, is what I am talking
about. If we just drag the dog from room to room because it did
stg we don't like, I totally miss the point.
>
> >> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> >> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
> >>
> >
> >I doubt it: the dog will know that the owner is the alpha, for sure.
> >But, unless the dog is socialized to outsiders - human & canine -
> >I do not think so.
>
> I agree to a point. As the training progresses, the behaviorist will
> probably have her start working outside the home. The dog is likely taking
> cues from the owner, and/or taking control of the situation. Once the dog
> sees the owner as Alpha, it will wait to see how she responds, and act
> accordingly. Or is more likely to. Most dogs do not want to be in charge. I
> beleive that there are very few truely dominant dogs, and most are relieved
> when you take that responsibility away from them. They just know that
> *someone* has to be in charge. The training should really continue to
> outside the home. I'm sure that the behaviorist will introduce these
> situations once s/he feels the owner is progressing.
>
The problem I see with this approach is the danger that the dog
depends upon the human so much that it reacts automatically when
the owner tenses on the leash or waivers in speaking. (This is
being talked up a lot on a rottie-list now, but it applies to any
dog with a similar protection 'bias', IMO.)
> >
> >> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> >> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> >> etc)?
> >>
> >
> >It should never really stop, IMO.
>
> Yes and no, IMO. No, the "old" relationship should never resume. That
> relationship is the problem. There will need to be a new one. Yes, the owner
> will, once the rules are laid down, be able to show more affection toward
> the dog. However, she will need to always remember that she is Alpha, and
> what she says goes. No exceptions. She will need to progress with her
> training, and have a take it as it comes attitude. With some dogs, you can
> never let up. Others you can once they get the idea. It really depends on
> the two of them, and the type of new relationship they are able to forge.
I follow the idea that contact is important: is this owner not
even supposed to brush her dog, for example? I make a point of going
out of my way to pat and hug the doggies. Especially when they
screw up royally (after a time of separation).
It could be more important in our case where all of the doggies
had previous owners and/or lived on the street for a while and/or
were abused and/or neglected before, but I am not so sure.
Andrea Stone
>but you that's just words.
<snip rest of post>
I think we're pretty much in agreement on all counts then. Just semantics.
:~)
AVRAMA GINGOLD
called his special program for recalcitrant rovers, and what
can best be described as teaching the dog TANSTAAFL (there
ain't no such thing as a free lunch.) Essentially the dog
must earn everything it wants. Before eating, the owner
tells the dog to sit/stay. No pats or kisses with obeying
*some* order. There is also an emphasis on the dominance
down.
I think the trainer your friend saw ought have explained
exactly what his/her rationale is for each of those
behaviors.
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Your dog is your only philosopher. -- Plato
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
I suspect the behaviorist observed the following behaviors and is trying
to correct for them
1) the dog initiates petting sessions not the owner - ie the dog demands
petting and treats
2) the dog 'eyes' the owner to make the owner 'obey' and it works
3) dog finds negative reinforcement as gratifying as positive reinforcement
- ie punishment is interaction and interaction is what the dog is seeking
at all times to be in control
4) the dog was probably sleeping on the owners bed
5) the dog was taking the lead in all situations and acting as the dominant
pack leader - the promise collar even without a leash is a constant
reminder of dominance to a 'free willed' dog.
your friend paid for the advice
none of it is harmful to the dog
two weeks is NOT a long time to try this out
changing one's status with a dog is not easy for an owner who is not
naturally dominant
dogs do not hate people who are in a leader role - they love and follow
them even if the role is a new and changed one for the person - thats how
packs work and stay together even when the leader changes
it may seem like tough love - but that works too!
this regimen sure beats having the dog bite someone and die for doing so!
Nancy
Barbara White <b...@sei.cmu.edu> wrote in article
<75o6v9$l...@news.sei.cmu.edu>...
>
> Last month, I posted seeking advice on behalf of a friend, whose
> dog acts aggressively/territorially with strangers and with other
> dogs. Friend wants to stop this behavior.
>
> I received a wealth of responses from many kind people who
> basically said the same thing -- see a behavior trainer that
> specializes in such problems. Friend did this -- Dog and Owner
> went to see a Behavioral Specialist, who gave Friend lots of
> advice.
>
> Specialist mentioned that during Dog's puppyhood, Owner's vet
> gave poor advice to Owner--Vet recommended that Dog have no
> contact with other dogs until the 9th month, when Dog's
> antibodies (or was it the immunizations?) would kick in and
> bolster Dog's immune system. Dog had no health problems; Vet
> simply thought that this was good routine behavior. Behavior
> Specialist believes that this was not healthy for Dog, who has
> since not learned how to act properly in public and who has
> assumed the wrong roles in the Dog-Owner relationship.
>
> The problem? ...when strangers approach, Dog barks/lunges/snaps.
> Dog demonstrated this behavior quite adequately for Behavior
> Specialist. Dog is aggressive with some (but not all) of
> Owner's friend's and family. Specialist analyzed Dog/Owner and
> determined that Dog perceives Owner as pack-lead most of the
> time and sometimes, Dog perceives himself as co-pack-lead or
> lone pack-lead, and that's the stuff that Owner must correct.
>
> Specialist gave Owner a plan for how to "demote" Dog into a
> less-superior pack position. Owner basically has a two-week long
> program to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
>
> . Dog sleeps crated at night in friend's room at night.
>
> . Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's
> described in the next bullet].
>
> . Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while
> Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog with morsels
> of food upon successfully completing commands (sit,
> stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
>
> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>
> . Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner
> can only remove Dog from situation.
>
> . Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except
> when Dog is crated. (The promise collar is like a
> horse collar--it goes around the muzzle and up through
> the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the collar
> often.
>
>
> Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this
> boot camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
>
> 2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
>
> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>
> 4. Is there success in the long term with such training?
>
> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
>
Ludwig Smith
<Snip>
>Specialist gave Owner a plan for how to "demote" Dog into a
>less-superior pack position. Owner basically has a two-week long
>program to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
>
>. Dog sleeps crated at night in friend's room at night.
Standard stuff.
>. Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's
> described in the next bullet].
>
>. Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while
> Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog with morsels
> of food upon successfully completing commands (sit,
> stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
Again, fairly standard stuff - with perhaps a variation here.
Physical contact is extremely important for dogs, but with dogs that
need to be 'demoted', there are I think certain ways in which any
physical contact needs to be initiated and administered. Touching and
talking can not only be important ways in which to bond with the dog,
but to establish and confirm the person's dominant status over the
dog.
>. Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
The same as above.
>. Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner
> can only remove Dog from situation.
Putting the last three things together, I think I can see what the
behaviorist is doing. It seems as though the behaviorist is in effect
'clearing the slate' so things can start anew. A lot depends on what
comes after this two week period. That should only be one phase out
of at least three - the other two being training/re-training and
desensitization.
I think that after the two week period, talking, touching and eye
contact should be reinitiated, but only on a controlled basis with the
owner retaining the control of the process. If the two week process
was supposed to be basically the end of the difficulties, then I think
your friend may be disappointed at the results, because the program
then is incomplete.
>. Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except
> when Dog is crated. (The promise collar is like a
> horse collar--it goes around the muzzle and up through
> the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the collar
> often.
The head halter collar gives better control of the dog and makes an
easier removal of the dog from the situation easier on both the dog
and the handler. There are proper and not proper ways to use the
collar. I hope your friend received some instructions from the
behaviorist on exactly how to use the collar.
>Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this
>boot camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the
>following questions:
>
>1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
From what your friend is saying, it seems like relatively standard
fare. Your friend should start trying to educate herself somewhat so
that she'll have a general idea when something is out of whack from
the normal. The previously recommended Evan's book is a good start.
She might also look at Myrna Milani, 'The Body Language and Emotions
of Dogs'. It gives an idea of how the owners can unwittingly
aggravate problems for the dogs.
>2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
Yes
>3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
Yes and no. If this is all there is, it will not do it. If this is
the start of the process, then possibly. Nothing in what you've
described is going to make the dog better in that regard. What this
seems to be doing is in effect, making for a new start. After that,
training of both the owner and the dog, along with desensitization, if
appropriate. That is what will lead to a dog that is not so agitated
by people or dogs. Your friend needs to realize that she is possibly
setting off the dog unwittingly, so she needs to learn proper leash
handling. The Promise collar should help in this regard.
>4. Is there success in the long term with such training?
There has been. Too often the weak link in the training is the owner.
>5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
Again, yes and no. She should resume the touching, patting, playing,
etc. as soon as possible, but only in a way which reinforces her top
position. Yes, she should be able to resume all of that. No, she
should not resume all of that in the same way - it helped contribute
to the problem.
Ludwig Smith (top...@erols.com)
Dog FAQs:
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
Pam
few experts. To me, it seems the dog will learn that if he jumps up then
sits, he is doing the right thing. Or is there an additional process once
this initial step is accomplished? Further explanation?
Paulette B. Nolan
>so one-sidedly critical about others' training
>techniques.
Hmmmm ..Sorry I bother you, just don't read my posts.
.
We all know that you disagree
>strongly with Dr. Dodson's approach, and it
>seems that because this trainer has an
>approach that sounds similar to you (I have no
>idea if the techniques are similar at all), you\
>assume that he's a non-specialist with little
>experience who produces "coo-coo" dogs and
>whose techniques should be outlawed. That
>seems a bit far-fetched to me.
I didn't ASSUME anything, I know that he is following in Dodman's
footsteps.
Unless,he came up with his own ideas, and never read the book.
The only other
>poster who I've read criticize Dodson's
>techniques, btw, has been Dog Game
>Superstar, someone else whose opinions I
>have come to regard as not to my tastes. (This
>is how I choose to phrase my criticisms...it
>clearly reflects disapproval, but I acknowledge
>that it's not an objective fact, just my opinion
>based on reading his words, not on knowing
>him well.)
Well, Michael and I definitely agree on this, that's for sure.
>Whether you like it or not, Dr. Dodson is one of
>the leading experts in the field of compulsions.
>I've concluded that he's worth talking to about
>my obsessive dog, who has potentially
>dangerous compulsions that standard
>obedience classes have been unable to correct.
I could care less about Dodman, I do however care very much for the dogs
he has "helped"
I have had many dogs come to me, after going through the "training" of
Dodman's.
I was their last hope,you know?
I helped them,not Dodman or Prozac!
I hope you will reconsider going to Tufts, but if you do, I wish you and
your dog much success,just don't call me to bail you out!!
>What I'm really asking for here (and I know I'm
>wasting my breath here on Usenet, but I feel
>compelled to try anyway) is some civility and
>respect for others' opinions. I think it's fine to
>say that in one's _opinion_, another training
>technique is not a good one, but I can't respect
>anyone who says very sensationally "I'm right
>and you're [or he's, she's] is wrong,
Look it, she came asking for opinions. I gave her my opinion and an"
expert opinion" at that.
How many dogs have you helped??
unqualified,
Unqualified, huh?? I think not..
but....your intitled to your opinion.
>evil, lunatic, inexperienced," whatever. A
>credible trainer (or a credible anybody) is more
>diplomatic than that
Evil. lunatic,inexperienced, huh??
Well. let's just call it quits right here.
Is this what you term civil????
It's exactly this "I know
>_everything_, I am super" attitude that makes
>me think "oh, no; another tunnel-visioned
>extremist." I just can't take anyone with that
>attitude seriously,
Well then don't.
but it strikes me from the
>number of posts of yours that I see here, and
>the suggestion in many of them that you are a
>trainer of some sort, that you want to be taken
>seriously.
I don't care if I am taken seriously or not.
I will tell you however, that I have a waiting list of people that want
me to help their pups.
So go figure,huh????
Helping dogs is my life.
Just food for thought.
Yes food for thought indeed and I am full right now...
Paulette B. Nolan
>Paulette,
>I find your comments very extreme here, and
>did not give enough of an in-depth commentary
I don't think they are extreme at all.
>to really see where you are coming from ...You
>seem disdainful, without any prior experience
>with this program.
You are wrong. I have had experience with this program, too much....
> I take offence to the "coo-coo" comment, and
>the idea that this woman will have to give her
>dog up if she tries this out. That *is* whacked
>out.
Hmmmm, well maybe so as our the dogs that come to me are "whacked out"
So maybe we make a good pair, huh??
As mentioned, I followed a similiar program
>and for our particular situation, it worked
>wonders. You seem to come out of nowhere
>with your accusations, when you
>don't even know or understand the training
>needs of this particular dog.. My two cups
>worth,C.
I'm glad it worked for you..
As for coming out of nowhere, I think not.
Paulette B. Nolan
I find it very odd, indeed all your comments.
Why have you then come to me with questions in private email about your
Chessie?
Stacey Curtis
> I could care less about Dodman, I do however care very much for the dogs
> he has "helped"
> I have had many dogs come to me, after going through the "training" of
> Dodman's.
> I was their last hope,you know?
> I helped them,not Dodman or Prozac!
> I hope you will reconsider going to Tufts, but if you do, I wish you and
> your dog much success,just don't call me to bail you out!!
Don't worry.
> Look it, she came asking for opinions. I gave her my opinion and an"
> expert opinion" at that.
> How many dogs have you helped??
That depends on what you mean by "helped." If you count time spent with
rescue dogs in any capacity, I couldn't begin to say. I am not a dog
trainer by profession, if that's what you're getting at (though I believe
everyone would agree that there are "expert" and "non-expert" professionals
out there), but what does that have to do with the fact that I said that I
thought that your response was unnecessarily harsh and sensationalist?
> unqualified,
>
> Unqualified, huh?? I think not..
> but....your intitled to your opinion.
>
> >evil, lunatic, inexperienced," whatever. A
> >credible trainer (or a credible anybody) is more
> >diplomatic than that
>
> Evil. lunatic,inexperienced, huh??
> Well. let's just call it quits right here.
> Is this what you term civil????
I think you misunderstood this part. I was saying that anyone who would use
such terms casually was not to be taken seriously. I never pointed them at
anyone.
> I don't care if I am taken seriously or not.
> I will tell you however, that I have a waiting list of people that want
> me to help their pups.
> So go figure,huh????
> Helping dogs is my life.
Lots of people that you disdain also have waiting lists. Go figure, huh????
I'm sure you mean well, I'm sure you're into your work, and I have no idea
if you're a capable trainer or not. Those things were never at issue. I was
just saying that IMHO, your attitude was not constructive.
-Stacey
Paulette B. Nolan
>Don't worry
I'm not
Look it, she came asking for opinions. I gave
>her my opinion and an" expert opinion" at that.
>How many dogs have you helped??
>That depends on what you mean by "helped." If
>you count time spent with rescue dogs in any
>capacity, I couldn't begin to say.
I mean HELPED. Taken a dog that was aggressive or coocoo the the owners
or rescue didn't anymore, because they couldn't handle him/her and
regrouped the beloved dog, with a lot of patience love and hard work,
and found the pup a permanent loving home.
By couldn't begin to say, what does that mean??
That you have saved so many dogs, that the numbers are astronomical, or
that you havn't done much in the way of helping dogs that are abandoned?
I am not a dog
>trainer by profession, if that's what you're
>getting at (though I believe everyone would\
>agree that there are "expert" and "non-expert"
>professionals out there), but what does that
>have to do with the fact that I said that I thought
>that your response was unnecessarily harsh
>and sensationalist?
Well I went back and looked over my reply and I don' believe it was.
> unqualified,
>Unqualified, huh?? I think not..
>but....your intitled to your opinion.
>evil, lunatic, inexperienced," whatever. A
>credible trainer (or a credible anybody) is more
>diplomatic than that
>Evil. lunatic,inexperienced, huh??
>Well. let's just call it quits right here. Is this what
>you term civil????
>I think you misunderstood this part. I was
>saying that anyone who would use such terms
>casually was not to be taken seriously. I never
>pointed them at anyone.
I went and looked at my first reply, and none of the above was written,
so why are you implying it was??
> I don't care if I am taken seriously or not. I will
>tell you however, that I have a waiting list of
>people that want me to help their pups.
>So go figure,huh????
>Helping dogs is my life.
>Lots of people that you disdain also have
>waiting lists. Go figure, huh????
Why don't you mention some of these people that have a "waiting list? "
I don't have any disdain for anyone. I do my thing, and they can do
theirs, but......
when someone asks me for my opinion, well I give it..
Like it or not...
>I'm sure you mean well, I'm sure you're into
>your work, and I have no idea if you're a
>capable trainer or not. Those things were never
>at issue
Wel, iI think they are an issue, as you are questioning whether I have
had experience with this type of "procedure"
As I said before with me there is no grey only black and white, until or
unless someone that I respect can change my thoughts on a subject, which
just doesn't happen to often.
I was just saying that IMHO, your
>attitude was not constructive.
And yours was??
All I am saying is, I have been there done that, and I wish to God, that
all the dogs that do have this training, are helped by it, and not hurt.
I want to be wrong, believe me....
but ....in my experience I have had the dogs hurt by it
and...
I fix the booboos.
.
Walk'N'Sit Dogs
<6173-368...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
>All I am saying is, I have been there done that, and I wish to God, that
>all the dogs that do have this training, are helped by it, and not hurt.
>I want to be wrong, believe me....
>but ....in my experience I have had the dogs hurt by it
>and...
>I fix the booboos.
U might fix the damage..but is it cause of the method of training? ..or
that the owner didnt stick to it & screwed the dog up more? I believe that
trainers have to keep an open mind on how to train the dog & owners. If the
owners dont cooperate how is the dog to. Whether its your methods or someone
elses. The owners have to take some responsibility that they arent doing it
right. I have seen different methods work for different breeds, owners etc
.. What may work for mine doesnt mean it would work for someone elses. I
understand what the behaviuoist is trying to do & i have seen it work..but
only if the owner keeps to it. That is the key to training. Anyone can get
their dog trained but if the owner isnt trained & willng to put a 100% in to
it then it is pretty useless.
.
Happy Wagging!!!
Colliepup
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
you are not much good as a people trainer.
A really good trainer (and yes the trained behaviorists usually are pretty
darn good) helps the people as well as the dog so that the dog can stay in
its home.
Heck I can take a whacko dog and turn it into a fine pet (I think most any
good dog person can) the thing I am most pleased with is when I can teach
the OWNER how to handle their dog properly so that it becomes a great pet
for them - now that IMO is training!
Nancy
breed rescuer for over 20 years
breeder - ditto
occasional in home behavior consultant - not my real job but my hobby leans
that way so I help people and pets when I can
and yeah I think the regimen will work if the owner will stick to it
Paulette B. Nolan <BRD...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6173-368...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
snip
I mean HELPED. Taken a dog that was aggressive or coocoo the the owners
or rescue didn't anymore, because they couldn't handle him/her and
regrouped the beloved dog, with a lot of patience love and hard work,
and found the pup a permanent loving home.
snip
The Smith's
which all dogs use in the pack system. When the dog is
aggressive, you simply flip the dog onto its back and
depending on how big the dog is you hold it down ir lay on
top of it until it submits. Sometimes that can take over a
half hour but its worth it and you don't have to do the rest
of all that was described. Our Jack Russell learned this
early on and now all I have is eye contact and he submits.
You must hold him down until he submits. Usually that means
he/she quits struggling/barking/biting or any kind of
movement whatsoever. I put my hand under his front paws in
such a manner that he cannot bite me and I hold his back
paws so that he cannot scratch. Not hard but firmly. I do
not speak or tell him anything but I ignore him until his
head will lay to the side and all movement has ceased. I do
not throw him down but gently flip him over. Great
technique. Has worked on all 7 dogs that I have owned with
no problem. And one of them was a german shepherd. I had to
lay on that sweetie for a while but she finally submitted.
Hope this helps your friend
Becky
Barbara White wrote in message
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
a perfect recipe for getting your face ripped badly or other severe
injuries. Some dogs do learn to submit with this kind of force training -
others learn to bide their time until they feel 'strong enough' to handle
the owner in a similar physical fashion. The author of the original Monks
of New Skete books that outline this method subsequently repudiated it due
to the number of severe injuries to owners who tried this with the wrong
dog. Be careful about advising people who you have never seen with dogs you
have never seen to try this to 'dominate' their dog.
Far better IMO to be a dog's leader than to be the brute who is stronger
than the dog as the leadership role does not change but the ability to
force the dog to do as you want it to certainly can.
Nancy
The Smith's <che...@shianet.org> wrote in article
<75sk2j$2pk$1...@ramp2.tir.com>...
Chris Kosmakos
: When the dog is
: aggressive, you simply flip the dog onto its back and
: depending on how big the dog is you hold it down ir lay on
: top of it until it submits. Sometimes that can take over a
: half hour but its worth it and you don't have to do the rest
: of all that was described.
Very bad advice for a number of reasons. An alpha roll can be
a good way to get bitten, but it is also completely ineffective
in the situation the poster described. It is a response to a
single disallowed behavior and only applies to the relationship
between the roller and the rollee. The NILIF or RRRR program
that was recommended for the friend of the original poster is
appropriate for a dog that has a general problem with his place
in society and the household rules. What was described is an
initial period to remove all opportunity for bad behaviors and
clean the slate to introduce reasonable patterns of behavior.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Jerry Howe
any dog/human relationship. It's immediate effectiveness will be obvious
to anyone willing to spend an hour reading, and four fifteen minute
sessions to implement the procedure.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method gives the facts about establishing the
dominant position without spending weeks or even hours of wasted effort
on useless psycho babble and dangerous dominant/submission force
techniques like the alpha rollover. The details of all of the most
effective training and behavior modification techniques are right there,
and for free. It's not a come-on for the rest of the story. There are
NO additional for sale items. The comprehensive Wits' End Dog Training
Method is available for download at Http://www.doggydoright.com
Jerry Howe
Barbara White wrote:
> Last month, I posted seeking advice on behalf of a friend, whose
> dog acts aggressively/territorially with strangers and with other
> dogs. Friend wants to stop this behavior.
>
> I received a wealth of responses from many kind people who
> basically said the same thing -- see a behavior trainer that
> specializes in such problems. Friend did this -- Dog and Owner
> went to see a Behavioral Specialist, who gave Friend lots of
> advice.
>
> Specialist mentioned that during Dog's puppyhood, Owner's vet
> gave poor advice to Owner--Vet recommended that Dog have no
> contact with other dogs until the 9th month, when Dog's
> antibodies (or was it the immunizations?) would kick in and
> bolster Dog's immune system. Dog had no health problems; Vet
> simply thought that this was good routine behavior. Behavior
> Specialist believes that this was not healthy for Dog, who has
> since not learned how to act properly in public and who has
> assumed the wrong roles in the Dog-Owner relationship.
>
> The problem? ...when strangers approach, Dog barks/lunges/snaps.
> Dog demonstrated this behavior quite adequately for Behavior
> Specialist. Dog is aggressive with some (but not all) of
> Owner's friend's and family. Specialist analyzed Dog/Owner and
> determined that Dog perceives Owner as pack-lead most of the
> time and sometimes, Dog perceives himself as co-pack-lead or
> lone pack-lead, and that's the stuff that Owner must correct.
>
> Specialist gave Owner a plan for how to "demote" Dog into a
> less-superior pack position. Owner basically has a two-week long
> program to do with Dog. Here's a summary:
>
> . Dog sleeps crated at night in friend's room at night.
>
> . Owner cannot touch or pat Dog [except for what's
> described in the next bullet].
>
> . Owner cannot talk to/address Dog except for while
> Dog eats. Then, Owner can reward Dog with morsels
> of food upon successfully completing commands (sit,
> stay, etc). (Owner performs this food training 2-3
> times each day.)
>
> . Owner and Dog can have no eye contact.
>
> . Owner cannot correct Dog; if Dog acts up, Owner
> can only remove Dog from situation.
>
> . Dog must wear a "promise" collar at all times except
> when Dog is crated. (The promise collar is like a
> horse collar--it goes around the muzzle and up through
> the back of the ears.) Dog tries to remove the collar
> often.
>
> Prior to this, Dog and Owner were very close, so to Owner, this
> boot camp period feels horrible and inhumane. Owner has the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone have experience with this type of training?
>
> 2. The training seems cruel--my friend wonders if she's
> just applying human emotions to this process, which is
> supposed to be good for Dog. What do you think?
>
> 3. Will this process lead to a more mature dog who is not
> so agitated when strangers or other dogs approach?
>
> 4. Is there success in the long term with such training?
>
> 5. Will Owner and Dog ever be able to resume their old
> Dog-Owner relationship (touching, patting, playing,
> etc)?
>
Ludwig Smith
>On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:17:12 -0800, "Andrea Stone" <andrea...@sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Rather than yelling at the dog for jumping up, for example, have him sit,
>> and reward him for complying. The dog will learn that sitting is beneficial.
>> Jumping up has no reward, therefore, no reason to do it.
>
>This is one I have never understood, although I have heard it from quite a
>few experts. To me, it seems the dog will learn that if he jumps up then
>sits, he is doing the right thing. Or is there an additional process once
>this initial step is accomplished? Further explanation?
There is the possibility of this happening, if the dog is
inadvertently taught to do this in the sequence of 'Jump-Sit-Reward'.
What you want to do is get into the sequence of interrupting the Jump
start with a command, in this case, 'Sit'. Then you get the sequence
of 'Sit-Reward'.
The additional part of this is that the dog has to be 'not rewarded'
for the jumping. That does not mean letting the dog continue to jump
on you or another person while trying to ignore them. It means not
allowing the dog to jump on you or another person, because too often,
the jumping on a person is reward enough in itself, regardless of the
person's reactions to the dog.
One way to accomplish this is to tether the dog to something and have
a person approach the dog. If the dog jumps, the person simply steps
outside of the dog's reach and turns around without a word. This
gives the dog no reward for jumping - they get no physical contact, no
eye contact and no verbal contact. A variation on this would be to
have the handler step on the leash so that the dog is unable to jump
up and make contact.
At this point, in place of the jumping, a command is given. 'Sit' is
the easiest one. You can also do other things like 'Say Hello' or
whatever you want the dog to do. Now that the dog is following a
command, it does not have the option of jumping up, which does not
give it any reward anyway.
Jonathan/Erika Reeves
Hasn't anyone heard of clicker training!!!????
Paulette B. Nolan
>Marc writes..
>The fact that you have chessies made you a
>logical choice to ask questions of you about
>your experience with your chessies, that doesn't
>alter that fact that like many of the so called
>experts, and dog lovers on this NG, you can be
>crass and obnoxious when responding to
>people's questions.
Gee, Marc, I thought when you asked me questions about wanting to breed
your Chessie, that I was quite nice to you, and didn't rant at all about
not breeding her.
I just statd the facts, and my opinion, didn't I?
I have never before been called crass, but so be it...
Intimidating, know it all , cute,yes,but never crass, and I think NOT!!,
>If you do not care to answer my questions
>about chessies, so be it,
Oh, Marc, I could never not answer questions,especially from you ; )
I just love knowing the answer!!!!
but this is just another
>example of the flaws in many of the
>personalities here.
Well we all can't be perfect, but we can be "almost perfect", huh??
Paulette B. Nolan
>The fact that you have to 'take the dog' in order
>to salvage it indicates you are not much good
>as a people trainer.
I don't take anyone's dog, I might however talk them into giving me the
dog, and I also might, just "Take an abused dog for a ride"
I have told you all before, someone has to speak and do for our beloved
animals, and I am not a talker I am a doer!!
The old addage Action speaks louder than words, is my motto!!
The dogs that are thrown at me, or abandoned, by owners, shelters,
rescue people, and oh yes "trainers " are confused pups, that's for
sure,however I have never not "taken"a pup, EVER!
and God willing, I will always be able to do this....
As far as people trainer, that's funny..
I have people that I have mouthed off, too, about the way they treated
their dog or because they want to breed their dog,
At the time,they have gotten angry with me, but they do indeed come
around to, and thank me for helping them.
>A really good trainer (and yes the trained
>behaviorists usually are pretty darn good) helps
Some are, some arn't..as in most things..
>the people as well as the dog so that the dog
>can stay in its home.
Absolutely,but what about the ones that do not want the dog, under any
conditions, or help??
There are many of these people around..
>Heck I can take a whacko dog and turn it into a
>fine pet
I recall in the past, that you have euthanized some of the "wacko dogs"
you have bred..
or the ones you have sold and the owners havn't wanted them any more.
And frankly, I don't think that you know where all your dogs are now..
I do...
and I have never bred..
> (I think most any good dog person can)
I wish it was as simple as that,
>the thing I am most pleased with is when I can
>teach the OWNER how to handle their dog
>properly so that it becomes a great pet for them
>- now that IMO is training!
Well that is what I do, and every summer I have a big party for all my
rescue dogs, and their owners, and if you would ever like to come you
are welcomed and you can check out my references and all the comments
people will say about me, who as you have called me is not a "person
trainer"
I don't believe you can get every one to like you, I could care less,
but you can have people respect you...
and as long as the dogs are helped and love me, that's all I need, with
an occassional human thrown in. ; )
Paulette B. Nolan
Well, I've heard vague rumors of such a style of
>training. Wasn't it popularized by some trainers
>wacked out on acid during the seventies?
So Ludwig how old are you??
Are you my age and a former hippie or what? ; )
Paulette
A dogs life is too short...
Their only fault really...
Ludwig Smith
<happy...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Hasn't anyone heard of clicker training!!!????
Well, I've heard vague rumors of such a style of training. Wasn't it
popularized by some trainers wacked out on acid during the seventies?
Ludwig Smith (top...@erols.com)
Dog FAQs:
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
Ludwig Smith
B. Nolan) wrote:
>So Ludwig how old are you??
>Are you my age and a former hippie or what? ; )
>
>Paulette
Younger than you and young enough to have *NOT* gone to Woodstock.
However, I do like older women. Too bad you're married, you're kind
of cute.
Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty now, and I was so good for Santa
this year.
dogsnus
>
> On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:32:42 -0500 (EST), BRD...@webtv.net (Paulette
> B. Nolan) wrote:
>
> >So Ludwig how old are you??
> >Are you my age and a former hippie or what? ; )
> >
> >Paulette
>
> Younger than you and young enough to have *NOT* gone to Woodstock.
> However, I do like older women. Too bad you're married, you're kind
> of cute.
>
> Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty now, and I was so good for Santa
> this year.
>
LOL!!! Ah, Ludwig, you bad boy!
I agree.. I wish I could age as well as Paulette has...
Sigh...
:)
Don't you just love her dogs, though?
Gorgeous pupsters!
Terri
Paulette B. Nolan
Younger than you and young enough to have
*NOT* gone to Woodstock. However, I do like
older women. Too bad you're married, you're
kind of cute.
Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty now, and I
was so good for Santa this year.
Paulette B. Nolan
>Younger than you and young enough to have
>*NOT* gone to Woodstock.
Too bad, it was quite the "happening"
I even had my dog with me...
Or was that my boyfriend?? ; )
However, I do like
>older women.
You know, I have never be termed the older women,,I should never have
told you guys how old I am!!!!!
How much older??
Too bad you're married, you're
>kind of cute.
Only kinda??
Well I'm better looking in person!!
And if I knew Dogman was going to post my pic, I would have given him a
much "cuter" one of moi!!
>Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty now, and I
>was so good for Santa this year.
I like that Ludwig... and while Dogman is away we can play, huh??
heehee
WOOF!!
Paulette~
Paulette B. Nolan
>Younger than you and young enough to have
>older women. Too bad you're married, you're
>kind of cute. Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty
>now, and I was so good for Santa this year. >Ludwig Smith
(top...@erols.co
>Terri writes~
>
>I agree. I wish I could age as well as Paulette
>has
>sigh...
Hey guys~
I have never felt so OLD in my life. I guess it has finally been
hammered into me that I am 47 47 47 47 47 47 47 !!!!!!!
So what exactly does that age look like or feel like??
I am OLD!!!!
Oh boy, I am going to come back to this board incognito and as a 23 year
old, which is how I feel,most of the time...
Gee I am MIDDLE AGE and then some huh??
Yikes..
I better start looking in the mirror more, and fix myself up.
My girlfriend bought me this huge makeup kit for Christmas.
Maybe she was trying to tell me something, as I never wear makeup, and
maybe I should?
ACK!!
I am a Grown Up!!!
I want to be a little girl.......
Well everyone
Goodnight
from the old lady...
Paulette~.
Ludwig Smith
B. Nolan) wrote:
>Ludwig flirts~
>
>>Younger than you and young enough to have
>>*NOT* gone to Woodstock.
>
>Too bad, it was quite the "happening"
>I even had my dog with me...
>Or was that my boyfriend?? ; )
I was in Junior High School at that time, just starting to, ahem -
notice the girl next door. The intellectual Chatauqua of Woodstock
would have been over my head I'm afraid.
> However, I do like older women.
>
>You know, I have never be termed the older women,,I should never have
>told you guys how old I am!!!!!
>
>How much older??
Only about ten years. A little intimidating in Junior High School,
but now that ol' Oedipus complex rears it's head. Of course my Mother
complains that I never call, never write.
>Too bad you're married, you're kind of cute.
>
>Only kinda??
> Well I'm better looking in person!!
>And if I knew Dogman was going to post my pic, I would have given him a
>much "cuter" one of moi!!
It's always nice to have something to look forward to, the
anticipation can be desirable.
>>Oh dear, I'm being rather naughty now, and I
>>was so good for Santa this year.
>
>I like that Ludwig... and while Dogman is away we can play, huh??
>heehee
>
>WOOF!!
The Dogman's away and Ludwig and Paulette can play.
Quarters perhaps? or Spin the Bottle? I haven't played like that
since my Freshman year at college when I got kicked out for partying
too much and studying too little. You wouldn't take advantage of a
little boy would you? Well, at least be gentle and respect me in the
morning.
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
being whacko when I know of *none*. I have most certainly euthanized ill
and elderly dogs who's life was no longer any pleasure for them - my vet
often thinks I go way beyond normal effort, working too hard and too long
to preserve a quality of life at any expense in fact. Indeed I am still
seeking a nice home for the Scottie mix that I have custody of who is
totally animal aggressive and sweet with people. The fact that she is
inconvenient in a multi pet home not withstanding. If that is the dog you
were referring to - I can assure you she's not of my breeding nor of any
breeder I know - simply a dumped out dog that another rescue could not
handle.
I know where all my dogs are - those that are still living anyhow as I have
outlived the first litters I produced long since. And that includes the
ones in other countries besides the US. Oh and it also includes the rescues
I have placed - and again I have long since outlived many of them. Indeed I
have had people come back for a 'third generation' of adoptions.
I find it pretty funny at how highly rated in the area you make yourself
out to be what with salvaging the dogs you take when the owners have no
success with the behaviorists <LOL> - but you are neither a known trainer
as far as I can find nor are you on any rescue lists for the area.
Certainly I know the trainers at Tufts and Angell by reputation if nothing
else and by meeting the happy results of consultations and their owners.
If you continue as a trainer I certainly hope you come to understand that
the OWNERS are far more important to train than the dogs. The dogs are the
easy part.
Nancy
Paulette B. Nolan <BRD...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<18258-36...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
snip some denying of what was originally posted
WebbWeave
I am 47 47 47 47 47 47 47 !!!!!!!
So what exactly does that age look like or feel like??
I am OLD!!!!
Watch it, baby.
You don't KNOW from old.
*groan*
Jane Webb
Mudpie & Moonpie
dogsnus
snip
> >Terri writes~
> >
> >I agree. I wish I could age as well as Paulette
> >has
> >sigh...
>
> Hey guys~
>
> I have never felt so OLD in my life. I guess it has finally been
> So what exactly does that age look like or feel like??
> I am OLD!!!!
Old is when you garden and spend 2 days limping with a lower
back ache for two days.
Old is when you shovel dirt and it takes 3 days to work out the sore
muscles in your shoulders and neck.
Old is when you fall asleep in the chair in the evenings before
7 pm. after a hard day's work outside in the hot sun.
Old is when you spend the day on the tractor and
hobble into the house at night and have to have someone
help you take your boots off!
:)
> Oh boy, I am going to come back to this board incognito and as a 23 year
> old, which is how I feel,most of the time...
Hey, you're ahead of the game if you feel like a 23 yr. old!
And, don't come back as anyone else. You're an inspiration for
us just as you are!
:)
> Gee I am MIDDLE AGE and then some huh??
> Yikes..
> I better start looking in the mirror more, and fix myself up.
Forget it! Fixing yourself up with makeup means you are afraid
of being 47; and my dear?, you look great just as you are!
More importantly, you FEEL young!
That's confidence and self-esteem!
> My girlfriend bought me this huge makeup kit for Christmas.
> Maybe she was trying to tell me something, as I never wear makeup, and
> maybe I should?
NO!! I wear less makeup each yr. I am feeling quite comfortable
with me_, just like I am, with each passing yr. No one likes it?
Tough!
Terri
How is Dixie doing?
(I hope I haven't fudged her name)!
Paulette B. Nolan
>Nancy H spouts forth
>but you are neither a known trainer as far as I
>can find nor are you on any rescue lists for the
>area. Certainly I know the trainers at Tufts and
>Angell by reputation if nothing else and by
Trainer?/ I think not.. Never said I was.. In fact I really don't like
that term at all.
Dog helper, lover, socializer.. that's what I want to be referred as.
As for rescue, come on Nancy, you emailed me asking for rescue lists,
and the Golden people sent one out, and I am on it, for Chessies, as I
am on most lists for CBR rescue and others besides..
Gee, you must be losing it, huh ?Due to old age??
At least, mine ,I blame on the Dear Dogman's "Booker's"
As far as the Tufts behaviorists, well I have had their dogs that they
have helped....
and they were dumped (
I do agree however, that the behaviorist, or dog helper can only help so
far, and the owner needs much more "training..
but...
That is why, I believe, all owners should be followed thru, with the
help of a dog person, so they don't ruin what the dog helper has done.
Unfortunately, most people do not have the time,wherewithal,passion,or
commitment to do so..
Well I have.
Oh by the way I have had Chessies since 1971, and ask arouind. people in
the know will tell you I have probably been doing the rescue the
longest of most others..
Have a good 1999
and Nancy, we are all here for the dogs,you know,so maybe we should just
end this squabble right here,huh?
How about it ??
Paulette~
Paulette B. Nolan
Watch it, baby.
You don't KNOW from old.
*groan*
Hello Dear~
I know. I have never thought of the age thing, till I saw it here.
Never checked out the grey hair or the wrinkles.
and
I don't think I am going to start now...hopefully..
They said old age is someone 20 years older
than how old you are!! haha
Hey, What other alternative is there,huh?
Have a wonderful Healthy Happy New Year Jane and pups!!
Woof
Paulette and brown dogs four...
Carol
>
>
> I have never felt so OLD in my life. I guess it has finally been
> hammered into me that I am 47 47 47 47 47 47 47 !!!!!!!
Old is when you have a pair of reading glasses in every room of the
house, and you *still* go out and buy one of those chains so you can
hang a pair around your neck! Old is when the clerks at the convenience
store stop calling you *Miss* and start calling you *Ma'am*! AARRGGHH!
> So what exactly does that age look like or feel like??
It looks and feels the way you want it do (blessed or cursed with the
appropriate genes). Some days, I feel I look old. Other days, not at
all. I was out shopping with my 25-year-old niece on Saturday and was
holding her 6-week-old son while she tried on some clothes. A young
woman asked me how old *my* baby was. Ahhh...made my day!
> I am OLD!!!!
Nope...you're not!
Carol
Carol
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
good advice - a professional opinion in fact made based on personal
observation of the dog and owner as they interact and an entire case
history
Nancy
who is here for the dogs and to protect them and their owners from folks
like you and your friends who seem to be here only for their own egos not
the animals or their owners
Paulette B. Nolan <BRD...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<29244-36...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
WebbWeave
Never checked out the grey hair or the wrinkles.
Secret to that: oily skin may be a bane your whole life, but it doesn't
wrinkle!
"Good" genes (can you go back for more of them?) will keep your hair dark.
And wear men's jeans -- makes your butt look small.
Happy New Year to you, too!
Denna Lasik
.net> wrote:
>Paulette B. Nolan wrote:
> snip
>> >Terri writes~
>> >
>> >I agree. I wish I could age as well as Paulette
>> >has
>> >sigh...
>>
>> Hey guys~
>>
>> I have never felt so OLD in my life. I guess it has finally been
>> hammered into me that I am 47 47 47 47 47 47 47 !!!!!!!
>> So what exactly does that age look like or feel like??
>> I am OLD!!!!
>Old is when you garden and spend 2 days limping with a lower
>back ache for two days.
>Old is when you shovel dirt and it takes 3 days to work out the sore
>muscles in your shoulders and neck.
>Old is when you fall asleep in the chair in the evenings before
>7 pm. after a hard day's work outside in the hot sun.
>Old is when you spend the day on the tractor and
>hobble into the house at night and have to have someone
>help you take your boots off!
>
LOL!!! Well, call me an old geezer then! That's not old, it's just
somewhere below indestructable. At least, it better not be old. I'd
hate to think I'm over the hill at 24 just because it took me a week
to work out the kinks in my muscles after a 5 mile hike, or because I
tend to fall asleep in front of the TV every evening after work, or
because I was immobile for days last spring after turning over the
garden. Of course, after discussing music with a 16 year old who'd
never heard of Boston, Rush, Toto, or Dire Straits last night, I WAS
feeling sort of ancient... ;-)
>
>> Oh boy, I am going to come back to this board incognito and as a 23 year
>> old, which is how I feel,most of the time...
Glad one of us does. <G>
>Hey, you're ahead of the game if you feel like a 23 yr. old!
>And, don't come back as anyone else. You're an inspiration for
>us just as you are!
>:)
>
>
>> Gee I am MIDDLE AGE and then some huh??
>> Yikes..
>> I better start looking in the mirror more, and fix myself up.
Mirrors are highly overrated.
>Forget it! Fixing yourself up with makeup means you are afraid
>of being 47; and my dear?, you look great just as you are!
>More importantly, you FEEL young!
>That's confidence and self-esteem!
>
>> My girlfriend bought me this huge makeup kit for Christmas.
>> Maybe she was trying to tell me something, as I never wear makeup, and
>> maybe I should?
Makeup is highly overrated.
>NO!! I wear less makeup each yr. I am feeling quite comfortable
>with me_, just like I am, with each passing yr. No one likes it?
>Tough!
>
I've never worn makup, and never will. When my dad suggested I wear
makeup a few months ago, I asked him what was wrong with my face as it
is... he hasn't suggested it since. <EG>
>Terri
>How is Dixie doing?
>(I hope I haven't fudged her name)!
Is that a veiled shot? ;-)
Denna Lasik
"According to science, bumblebees can't fly.
Fortunately for the bumblebee, nobody ever told him that."
Visit my useless web page!
http://www.picantes.com/windwolf
Toni
>it here.
***************************************
visit my website www.irish-wolfhounds.com
Toni
>year old who'd never heard of Boston, Rush,
>Toto, or Dire Straits last night, I WAS feeling
>sort of ancient... ;-)
clerk asked me "are they new?"!
Carol
>
>
> Secret to that: oily skin may be a bane your whole life, but it doesn't
> wrinkle!
Wrong, oh wrong. We oily-skinned types just get oily wrinkles. Wait and
see!
Carol
Tony
cd?
Paulette B. Nolan
>Not my dear while you hand out bad advice to
>people who already have gotten good advice -
>a professional opinion in fact made based on
>personal observation of the dog and owner as
>they interact and an entire case history
>Nancy
>who is here for the dogs and to protect them
>and their owners from folks like you and your
>friends who seem to be here only for their own
Paulette asks???
What is wrong with YOU?????
Paulette B. Nolan
>And wear men's jeans -- makes your butt look
>small. Happy New Year to you, too!
>Jane Webb
>Mudpie & Moonpie
Hey I wear men's 501 button fly!!!!!!!
and.....
with that tip Jane, I guess I'll be wearing them forever!!
Paulette~
WebbWeave
We oily-skinned types just get oily wrinkles. Wait and
see!
Nevah hoppen. I'm so old I'm gonna die soon. Even my Mom doesn't have much in
the way of wrinkles. Shiny nose -- no wrinkles.
WebbWeave
Most of it is not good for your skin anyway, and worse for the
pocketbook. Dogs don't seem to care one way or another....
Girl dogs do!
Moon is VERY interested in various flavors of lipstick.
I also got some blusher/lip stuff (this is embarassing to admit) made from
crushed rose petals. Smells and tastes nice.
Paulette B. Nolan
Spin the bottle,hmmmmmmmm
I havn't played that since seventh grade, what other games would ou
suggest??
Of course I would be gentle and respect ou in the morning <WBG>
I'm a kind soul,you know??
So let's see in 1969 I was 18 and in my first year at college, and you
were in junior high,huh??
Perfect!!
Oh, the reason I am not quoting is, your message did not come thru my
server and I had to read it thru dejanews and I don't reply thru there.
I have to get a real computer, soon!!
Have a wonderful New Year, and have as much fun as I will!!
Suzanne M Daly
> Moon is VERY interested in various flavors of lipstick.
> I also got some blusher/lip stuff (this is embarassing to admit) made from
> crushed rose petals. Smells and tastes nice.
> Jane Webb
> Mudpie & Moonpie
>
>
Scout (6 months) loves my organic lip balm from the health food store.
She licks it off my mouth, and steals and eats the whole tube if given the
opportunity. She also loves the cocoa-butter based hand cream someone gave
me.
Suzanne
AVRAMA GINGOLD
PN> Never checked out the grey hair or the wrinkles.
PN> and
PN> I don't think I am going to start now...hopefully..
Grey hair--what's that? All I can say is that if God
wanted me to have grey hair, or the same color hair
all the time, She never would have let Clairol be
invented.
PN> They said old age is someone 20 years older
PN> than how old you are!! haha
And middle age is two years older.
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] "Nature teaches beasts to know their friends."
tra...@ix.netcom.com
Yup, I got one o' those, too. Kyle votes for my bubble gum-flavored
<ggg, I'm a young-at-heart 37> and vanilla-flavored un-petrolatum, but a
close runner-up is the citrus hemp lip balm. (Geeeeeeez, guess I've
been at the HFS too many times.)
Tracy Landauer
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
with NO concept of how the dog and owner interact will mean that poor GSD
will DIE because of it. I see that as a Bad Thing personally and am
surprised that anyone claiming to love dogs would see it otherwise.
The woman had sound advice given her by a behaviorist who observed the dog
owner team in action and had a full case history - your immediate reaction
was to undermine that advice based on a half dozen or so lines of
information and no in person observation. The one who pays for that advice
of yours will not be you but rather the dog and likely the owner also if
all continues as it has been in that flawed owner dog relationship.
Nancy
Paulette B. Nolan <BRD...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<29694-36...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
AVRAMA GINGOLD
and have people act as if you were present at the landing of the
Mayflower. (Hey, I did get a great tan and my Dobe got lots of
attention.)
avrama
T> Have you had a clerk type say, "Who?" when you ask about a John Lennon
T> cd?
T>
T> Toni wrote:
T>
T> > >Of course, after discussing music with a 16
T> > >year old who'd never heard of Boston, Rush,
T> > >Toto, or Dire Straits last night, I WAS feeling
T> > >sort of ancient... ;-)
T> > I went into a music store to order a Sam and Dave CD, and Buffy the
T> > clerk asked me "are they new?"!
T> >
T> > ***************************************
T> > visit my website www.irish-wolfhounds.com
T>
T>
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] <<Qu'est-que ce apprivoiser?>> dit le petit reynard.
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
Molly's favorite is Lava Soap.
MaryBeth
Susan Mudgett aka little gator wrote in message
<76fr30$e4h$1...@harvee.billerica.ma.us>...
>
>Molly's favorite is Lava Soap.
Both my dogs like Keri lotion the best <G> (Smells like mom)
MaryBeth
WebbWeave
Molly's favorite is Lava Soap.
BLEAH!!
Quail-Pie long ago trained us out of using anything but liquid soap -- we have
since reverted some, though -- by eating *every* bar of soap she could get her
paws on.
dogsnus
Looks like I need a new definition of old, then!
Of course, after discussing music with a 16 year old who'd
> never heard of Boston, Rush, Toto, or Dire Straits last night, I WAS
> feeling sort of ancient... ;-)
I know what you mean. Although it's strange, my son's taste in music
is swinging towards what was popular when I was his age.
snip
> I've never worn makup, and never will. When my dad suggested I wear
> makeup a few months ago, I asked him what was wrong with my face as it
> is... he hasn't suggested it since. <EG>
LOL! They only thing I bother with is waterproof mascara, my eyelashes
are invisible without it.
>
> >Terri
> >How is Dixie doing?
> >(I hope I haven't fudged her name)!
>
> Is that a veiled shot? ;-)
Not at all!
I meant the Chessie that Paulette and Dogman rescued.
Terri
Paulette B. Nolan
Stevie Ray
Cream
Jim Morrison(a wicked big fan,, I partied with him) haha or was he a fan
of mine???
Tom Rush
Neil Young
Creedence
John Mayall
TajMahal
Bob Marley
Van Morrison
BBKing
Pete Seeger
Rod Stewart
Motown stuff
and newer stuff
The Radiators
Shawn Colvin
Paula Cole
The New Radicals
Johnny Lang
and of course last but not least
Kenny Wayne Shepherd...
Somewhere,Somehow,Someway
and Kings Highway!!
I love those two songs!!!!
That's where I live!!
Musis is GREAT!!!
Paulette B. Nolan
>Terri asks~How is Dixie doing?
>(I hope I haven't fudged her name)!
>Deanna asks~
>Is that a veiled shot? ;-)
>Terri answers~
>Not at all!
>I meant the Chessie that Paulette and Dogman >rescued. Terri
Paulette asks~
Who did you think she meant Deanna??
and yes Dixie is fine, and that Dogman definitely knows how to get to
me!!
Ludwig Smith
B. Nolan) wrote:
>Spin the bottle,hmmmmmmmm
>I havn't played that since seventh grade, what other games would you
>suggest??
What would a flower child of the Sixties play? A little innocent like
me wouldn't know anything about that. A little Acey-Deucy perhaps.
That brings back some memories. I haven't played that in a long time.
>Of course I would be gentle and respect you in the morning <WBG>
>I'm a kind soul,you know??
What more could I ask for than that?
>So let's see in 1969 I was 18 and in my first year at college, and you
>were in junior high,huh??
>
>Perfect!!
I remember watching a documentary on Woodstock and thinking to myself,
'Wow, them people is buck naked !'. It must have been an interesting
happening, but as I said, the level of intellectual discussion would
have been over my head. I would have been more interested in the
naked people, probably still would be more interested in them.
However, I always said the best thing to come out of the sixties was
the music and the only good thing to come out of the seventies (my
coming of age decade) was the eighties.
>Oh, the reason I am not quoting is, your message did not come thru my
>server and I had to read it thru dejanews and I don't reply thru there.
Playing hard to get, huh? Well, the dogs always told me half the fun
was in the chase and I always believe the dogs. I babysat a Chessie
last night that liked to bonk me in the butt with her nose. You
haven't picked up any of those Chessie habits have you?
>I have to get a real computer, soon!!
>
>Have a wonderful New Year, and have as much fun as I will!!
Of course I will, that's why I taught my dog to dance with me.
Unfortunately a Brittany doesn't seem to be a chick magnet. All I get
are the good ol' boys pulling up beside me, giving me the thumbs up
and saying 'Nice Brittany'. Nice guys, but not quite my type. I need
a good ol' girl to pull up beside me and say 'Nice Brittany, let's go
hunting together.'
Ludwig Smith (top...@erols.com)
Dog FAQs:
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
Denna Lasik
Kind of a private joke of sorts. <G>
Terri and I met on rec.equestrian a few days ago and I finally pointed
out to her that she's been spelling my name wrong for the last 3-4
years.
BTW Terri, I hope you didn't take that the wrong way; I thought it was
sort of funny myself. ;-)
Denna Lasik
On Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:41:09 -0500 (EST), BRD...@webtv.net (Paulette B.
Nolan) wrote:
*snippage*
>Paulette asks~
>Who did you think she meant Deanna??
*snipperooni*
Paulette B. Nolan
spelling my name wrong for the last 3-4 years.
Paulette apologizes~
As have I Denna..
I hate that when someone spells your name wrong (
AVRAMA GINGOLD
LS> me wouldn't know anything about that. A little Acey-Deucy perhaps.
LS> That brings back some memories. I haven't played that in a long time.
Botticelli was a constant at parties in the early 60s.
LS> I remember watching a documentary on Woodstock and thinking to myself,
LS> 'Wow, them people is buck naked !'. It must have been an interesting
LS> happening, but as I said, the level of intellectual discussion would
LS> have been over my head. I would have been more interested in the
LS> naked people, probably still would be more interested in them.
It was amazing just how much that first startled shock at all the
naked people became after a while same-old, same-old . . . usually
covered with mud. Most people were more concerned with (a) finding
a spot where they could hear the music, and (b) finding a Portasan
or other loo equivalent.
avrama (who >was< at Woodstock, and did get a great tan.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Don't blame the dog; train the dog.
Paulette B. Nolan
>what other games would you suggest??
Hide the drugs??
What did i just take?
haha
l>ittle innocent like me
I somehow DOUBT that!
wouldn't know anything
>about that. A little Acey-Deucy perhaps. That
>brings back some memories. I haven't played
>that in a long time.
I'm great at cards !!
>Of course I would be gentle and respect you in
>the morning <WBG> I'm a kind soul,you
>know??
>What more could I ask for than that?
Gee, your easy to please : )
>So let's see in 1969 I was 18 and in my first
>year at college, and you were in junior
>high,huh??
>Perfect!
So how old are you?
>I remember watching a documentary on
>Woodstock and thinking to myself, 'Wow, them
>people is buck naked !'. It must have been an
>interesting happening, but as I said, the level of
>intellectual discussion would have been over
>my head. I would have been more interested in
>the naked people, probably still would be more
>interested in them.
<WBG>
However, I always said the
>best thing to come out of the sixties was the
>music and the only good thing to come out of
>the seventies (my coming of age decade) was
>the eighties.
Oh, I think of the 70's as my time. You know Van, Neil Young,and
others...
>Oh, the reason I am not quoting is, your
>message did not come thru my server and I had
>to read it thru dejanews and I don't reply thru
>there.
>Playing hard to get, huh?
Sometmes...
Well, the dogs always
>told me half the fun was in the chase and I
>always believe the dogs.
Your a smart guy, then!
I babysat a Chessie
>last night that liked to bonk me in the butt with
>her nose. You haven't picked up any of those
>Chessie habits have you?
Not THAT habit,however I do BITE !!!!!
>Of course I will, that's why I taught my dog to
>dance with me.
Me too!!
Unfortunately a Brittany doesn't
>seem to be a chick magnet. All I get are the
>good ol' boys pulling up beside me, giving me
>the thumbs up and saying 'Nice Brittany'. Nice
>guys, but not quite my type.
Maybe those "gus" think you are THEIR type...
I need a good ol'
>girl to pull up beside me and say 'Nice Brittany,
>let's go hunting together.
Where do you live, and you never know,huh???
' Ludwig Smith >(top...@erols.com)
Good night Ludwig...
Paulette~
an Old Cape Cod Girl
Paulette B. Nolan
>It was amazing just how much that first startled
>shock at all the naked people became after a
>while same-old, same-old . . . usually covered
>with mud. Most people were more concerned
>with (a) finding a spot where they could hear
>the music, and (b) finding a Portasan or other
>loo equivalent.
>avrama (who >was< at Woodstock, and did get >a great tan.
. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Don't blame the dog; train the dog.
You are right Avrama... I didn't get naked..but I did get muddie...
We all went in a VW bus,with flowers painted on it,of course.
It was something..wasn't it??
The summer of 69.
I was 18
Memories <BG>
Peace
Paulette~
dogsnus
>
> Kind of a private joke of sorts. <G>
> Terri and I met on rec.equestrian a few days ago and I finally pointed
> years.
> BTW Terri, I hope you didn't take that the wrong way; I thought it was
> sort of funny myself. ;-)
Not at all, *Deanae*...
WEG!!
BTW, after THAT group, can you believe how many folks HERE get
offended???
:)
"Terrieie"
Denna Lasik
LOL no kidding! I actually find myself skipping most of the threads
on that group, whereas there are very few threads I'll entirely skip
here. Although, at least over there the pointless threads are easy to
spot; if the name of the thread doesn't tip you off (and it usually
does) just skip any thread where Muleskinner appears over 5 times in
one day and you'll probably do ok. ;-) Granted, she does occasionally
post something informative, but those posts are few and far between;
most of them seem to just be there to show off her large vocabulary
and attempt to make others look or feel stupid...
Denna Lasik
Ludwig Smith
Nolan) wrote:
>>Of course I would be gentle and respect you in
>>the morning <WBG> I'm a kind soul,you
>>know??
>
>>What more could I ask for than that?
>
>Gee, your easy to please : )
Yes, I'm very easy.
>So how old are you?
If my math is correct, only ten years younger. Of course, math was
the only course I flunked. Too many rules. I don't need no stinking
rules.
> I babysat a Chessie
>>last night that liked to bonk me in the butt with
>>her nose. You haven't picked up any of those
>>Chessie habits have you?
>
>
>Not THAT habit,however I do BITE !!!!!
Owie ! I know you're gentle, but do be careful with those teeth. We
guys are very sensitive about that.
> Unfortunately a Brittany doesn't
>>seem to be a chick magnet. All I get are the
>>good ol' boys pulling up beside me, giving me
>>the thumbs up and saying 'Nice Brittany'. Nice
>>guys, but not quite my type.
>
>Maybe those "guys" think you are THEIR type...
I suppose that would double my chance for a date on the weekends, but
I prefer only my music Deliverance style.
> I need a good ol'
>>girl to pull up beside me and say 'Nice Brittany,
>>let's go hunting together.
>
>Where do you live, and you never know,huh???
If you're ever in the DC area ....
Paulette B. Nolan
Yes, I'm very easy.
>So how old are you?
>If my math is correct, only ten years younger.
Hoe could you be that much younger than me?
If you were in seventh grade in 68 and I was a senior..ohlala : ) and I
graduated at 17 you had to have been11??or 12??
>Of course, math was the only course I flunked.
What else did you "flunk" Ludwig?? heehee
>Too many rules. I don't need no stinking rules.
Well said,me either!
>Not THAT habit,however I do BITE !!!!!
>Owie ! I know you're gentle, but do be careful
>with those teeth. We guys are very sensitive
>about that.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>Maybe those "guys" think you are THEIR type..
>I suppose that would double my chance for a
>date on the weekends, but I prefer only my
>music Deliverance style.
Quite the wit, arn't you?
>I need a good ol'
>girl to pull up beside me and say 'Nice Brittany,
>let's go hunting together.
>Where do you live, and you never know,huh???
>If you're ever in the DC area ....
Do they have a lot of "upland hunting" there???
or what???
Ludwig Smith
Nolan) wrote:
Sorry about the lateness of this post. Between work and a cold, I've
been out of it for a few days. I don't mind the twelve hour days, but
add the sniffles into it and I have a hard time thinking.
>How could you be that much younger than me?
>If you were in seventh grade in 68 and I was a senior..ohlala : ) and I
>graduated at 17 you had to have been11??or 12??
I screwed up on my math somewhere in an earlier post. Calculators
were my saving grace. I knew I should have used one.
>>Of course, math was the only course I flunked.
>
>What else did you "flunk" Ludwig?? heehee
Well, I did flunk grammer. Again, too many rules, but I more than
made up for it in creative writing. Interestingly enough, I remember
my sex ed class *very well*.
>>Maybe those "guys" think you are THEIR type..
>>I suppose that would double my chance for a
>>date on the weekends, but I prefer only my
>>music Deliverance style.
>
>Quite the wit, arn't you?
Well, that's because I listen to Mozart. That makes you smarter. Of
course I've only listened to him for about half my life. That would I
suppose, make me more of a half wit.
>>I need a good ol'
>>girl to pull up beside me and say 'Nice Brittany,
>>let's go hunting together.
>>Where do you live, and you never know,huh???
>>If you're ever in the DC area ....
>
>Do they have a lot of "upland hunting" there???
>or what???
Well, I know there's some out in the country of Virginia and Maryland.
You could probably find some decent hunting in Rock Creek Park, but
the Federales would probably take get miffed and make a Federal case
out of it. In certain areas of the city, there would be a fair amount
of hunting that comes under the 'or what?' catagory. We have a couple
of police officers that regale the dog park with their tales of
hunting in the city.
Paulette B. Nolan
>Sorry about the lateness of this post.
No problem. )
Between
>work and a cold, I've been out of it for a few
>days.
Awwwwww, poor baby...
I don't mind the twelve hour days, but add
>the sniffles into it and I have a hard time
>thinking.
I just bet, YOU have a hard time thinking!
>How could you be that much younger than me?
>If you were in seventh grade in 68 and I was a
>senior..ohlala : ) and I
>graduated at 17 you had to have been11??or
>12??
>I screwed up on my math somewhere in an
>earlier post. Calculators were my saving grace.
We couldn't even use a slide rule.
>I knew I should have used one.
>Of course, math was the only course I flunked.
>What else did you "flunk" Ludwig?? heehee
>Well, I did flunk grammer. Again, too many
>rules, but I more than made up for it in creative
>writing.
Hey, Ludwig, the same here!!
Of couse I was teacher's "pet" a lot...
Male teachers that is~ heehee
Interestingly enough, I remember my
>sex ed class *very well*
Hmmmmmmm I don't remember THAT at all.
Of course I din't need THAT class ; )
>Quite the wit, arn't you?
>Well, that's because I listen to Mozart. That
>makes you smarter. Of course I've only listened >
>to him for about half my life
So 20 years huh??
That would I
>suppose, make me more of a half wit
Right...
>Do they have a lot of "upland hunting" there???
>or what???
>Well, I know there's some out in the country of
>Virginia and Maryland. You could probably find
>some decent hunting in Rock Creek Park, but
>the Federales would probably take get miffed
>and make a Federal case out of it. In certain
>areas of the city, there would be a fair amount
>of hunting that comes under the 'or what?'
Uh,huh.. I see...
>catagory. We have a couple of police officers
>that regale the dog park with their tales of
>hunting in the city.
We have them here also (
>Ludwig Smith (top...@erols.com)
Now take care of yourself Ludwig.
Get rid of the sniffles.
I like healthy men!