Unexplainably Aggressive Great Dane -- rather long but need help!!
Karen Williams
unneutered because his breeder (co-owner and good friend) intends to
show him) I've had him since he was 3-months old. From the very start
he was a very confident, friendly and intelligent dog. He was
comfortable anywhere he went and I took him lots of places to socialize
him. He loves everybody. Great temperment. He got along with my other
dogs (except for my male Pharaoh Hound). He was a constant companion
and playmate with my spayed female Harlequin and my female Pharaoh
Hound. The 3 of them slept on my bed every night.
About a month ago my female Harl had a biopsy done on her foot. I had
been giving her antibiotics twice a day for several days. The 3 dogs
had just come into the house and I was giving Zelda her pills. Bo (the
male Dane) was standing in front of her watching. He quietly walked
around behind me and attacked Zelda by grabbing her by the back of her
neck. He was serious!! By the time I hauled him off her and dragged
him outside she had several good punctures in her neck -- deep enough to
need stitching. This took us both totally by surprise. She didn't even
realize he was serious until it was too late. That's incident #1.
Incident #2. Bo has been isolated from Zelda. She and the other dogs
were outside. I was talking in the phone with my male Pomeranian
sitting on my lap. Bo was lying on the floor at my feet. He had been
on the couch too, but then moved to the floor. He lay there for about 5
minutes. I hadn't moved. The Pom hadn't moved. I was still talking on
the phone. Bo stood up, casually turned around and went for the Pom. I
deflected him and the Pom (sensing his life was in danger) took off for
the bedroom.
Incident #3
So now Bo is totally isolated from the other dogs. I have him either in
my riding ring where he had plenty of room to run or in a pen in the
back bedroom. I was visiting him and rubbing his ears (which he
loves). But this time he was not leaning into the ear-rub and groaning
like he usually did. He was very still and eventually he growled at
me. Now I've been around dogs for most of my life. I've trained and
shown dogs in obedience. I'm more or less "in tune" with my dogs. I've
had Danes for years. This dog just plain scared me. I just could not
"read" him and he had a strange look in his eyes. I gave him a final
pat and walked off. Later he was back to his old self.
Does anyone have any idea what this could be? His "attacks" have been
silent and very deliberate. If he was having some sort of a "fit" I
don't think he'd care who he attacked. Any ideas or suggestions would
be greatly appreciated.
DogStar716
>silent and very deliberate. If he was having some sort of a "fit" I
>don't think he'd care who he attacked. Any ideas or suggestions would
>be greatly appreciated.
To the vet you must go... I have heard that brain tumors can cause this kind
of behavior... of course, that is the extreme case, but you want to rule out
anything physical before you start trying to analize the mental... I am a Dane
person too; Good luck and let us know what you find out.
Dogstar716
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are
his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true,
to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such
devotion"
-- Unknow
Adrienne Caldwell
behavior changed so suddenly and unexpectedly, I would rule out any type of
neurological problem. A neurologist at a major animal medical center would
be your best bet for this as many small vet clinics have little experience
with this specialized area. I had a similar problem with one of my dogs
which turned out to be the result of allergy attacks. Her condition was
treated for about six months with Prozac and then everything was fine. It
was a neurologist and an allergist at New York Medical Center that figured
out what her problem was. Prior to this I had gone to a local vet that
suggested my dog be euthanized. Fortunately, I did not take his advice and
she is here right now curled up comfortably at my feet. She also had
similar problems when in heat and developed an hysterical pregnancy. So
maybe discuss nuetering Bo (given his particular problem) with the
neurologist.
The best of luck to you and Bo.
Adrienne
Karen Williams wrote:
Dogman
23 Aug 1998 13:49:38 -0400, Adrienne Caldwell <a...@mindspring.com>
says:
>Hi Karen. Given that you have socialized Bo from 3 months of age, and his
>behavior changed so suddenly and unexpectedly, I would rule out any type of
>neurological problem.
I wouldn't.
And perhaps you didn't mean to, either, eh? It's a little unclear.
> A neurologist at a major animal medical center would
>be your best bet for this as many small vet clinics have little experience
>with this specialized area. I had a similar problem with one of my dogs
>which turned out to be the result of allergy attacks.
I'd be surprised to hear that this behavior is allergy-related. My
first guess would be *idiopathic rage.* Perhaps a neurological exam
will turn up something. Maybe a tumor, etc.
>Her condition was
>treated for about six months with Prozac and then everything was fine. It
>was a neurologist and an allergist at New York Medical Center that figured
>out what her problem was. Prior to this I had gone to a local vet that
>suggested my dog be euthanized.
Adrienne, would you please tell us more about this?
For example, what kind of allergy was it, and how exactly did it cause
your dog's similar aggressive and aberrant behavior?
>Fortunately, I did not take his advice and
>she is here right now curled up comfortably at my feet. She also had
>similar problems when in heat and developed an hysterical pregnancy. So
>maybe discuss nuetering Bo (given his particular problem) with the
>neurologist.
I'd also be surprised if neutering this particular dog has any
significant effect.
[...]
>Karen Williams wrote:
>
>> I have a 2-year old unneutered male Harlequin Great Dane. (He is
>> unneutered because his breeder (co-owner and good friend) intends to
>> show him) I've had him since he was 3-months old.
Have you contacted the breeder yet? Perhaps this is a problem
inherent in the dog's line, eh?
>> From the very start
>> he was a very confident, friendly and intelligent dog. He was
>> comfortable anywhere he went and I took him lots of places to socialize
>> him. He loves everybody. Great temperment. He got along with my other
>> dogs (except for my male Pharaoh Hound). He was a constant companion
>> and playmate with my spayed female Harlequin and my female Pharaoh
>> Hound. The 3 of them slept on my bed every night.
Nothing abnormal here.
>> About a month ago my female Harl had a biopsy done on her foot. I had
>> been giving her antibiotics twice a day for several days. The 3 dogs
>> had just come into the house and I was giving Zelda her pills. Bo (the
>> male Dane) was standing in front of her watching. He quietly walked
>> around behind me and attacked Zelda by grabbing her by the back of her
>> neck. He was serious!! By the time I hauled him off her and dragged
>> him outside she had several good punctures in her neck -- deep enough to
>> need stitching. This took us both totally by surprise. She didn't even
>> realize he was serious until it was too late. That's incident #1.
This is very typical of idiopathic rage.
>> Incident #2. Bo has been isolated from Zelda. She and the other dogs
>> were outside. I was talking in the phone with my male Pomeranian
>> sitting on my lap. Bo was lying on the floor at my feet. He had been
>> on the couch too, but then moved to the floor. He lay there for about 5
>> minutes. I hadn't moved. The Pom hadn't moved. I was still talking on
>> the phone. Bo stood up, casually turned around and went for the Pom. I
>> deflected him and the Pom (sensing his life was in danger) took off for
>> the bedroom.
Same here, but not so cut and dried.
>> Incident #3
>> So now Bo is totally isolated from the other dogs. I have him either in
>> my riding ring where he had plenty of room to run or in a pen in the
>> back bedroom. I was visiting him and rubbing his ears (which he
>> loves). But this time he was not leaning into the ear-rub and groaning
>> like he usually did. He was very still and eventually he growled at
>> me. Now I've been around dogs for most of my life. I've trained and
>> shown dogs in obedience. I'm more or less "in tune" with my dogs. I've
>> had Danes for years. This dog just plain scared me. I just could not
>> "read" him and he had a strange look in his eyes. I gave him a final
>> pat and walked off. Later he was back to his old self.
Again, this is VERY typical of idiopathic rage.
>> Does anyone have any idea what this could be?
My money's on idiopathic rage. I think that if you will check with
your breeder, you'll find this isn't the first time this has happened
in the breeder's line.
>> His "attacks" have been
>> silent and very deliberate. If he was having some sort of a "fit" I
>> don't think he'd care who he attacked.
Yup. Again, very symptomatic of idiopathic rage.
>>Any ideas or suggestions would
>> be greatly appreciated.
1.) Have the dog examined by a neurological specialist.
2.) Contact the breeder for help or advice, and to inquire about the
line's history.
3.) Consider having the dog evaluated by a canine behaviorist
EXPERIENCED in diagnosing idiopathic rage.
Karen, please let us know how this develops, okay?
And good luck!
--
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
About Hunting Retrievers
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm
New! Dogman's Book Recommendations
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
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http://www.georgedickel.com
"Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral.
Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival."
Dogman
"Do unto others as they do unto you."
Dogman
Karen Williams
Right now Bo is back with his breeder -- I can no longer trust him near my other
dogs. She also wanted to observe him and talk to her vet and run some tests.
She has never had a problem like this before (and yes I believe her because she
is also a good friend). He's been there almost a week and has exhibited no
symptons so far. We both know the lines that this dog was bred from and have
friends who know the line for generations over many years and none of them have
heard of this happening. That's what is so upsetting about it.
Thank you again for the information -- this newsgroup is a great resource!
Dogman wrote:
> <major snip>
Dogman
1998 00:31:05 GMT, Karen Williams <kog...@worldnet.att.net> says:
>Thanks for the replies. Just what is idiopathic rage and is it cureable?
Karen, the cause of idiopathic rage or aggression is mostly unknown,
although it is thought to be related to certain forms of epilepsy.
Several breeds appear to be more susceptible than others, but it's
been observed in virtually all breeds, particularly the ESS, Cocker
Spaniel, Bernese Mountain Dog, St. Bernard, Rottweiler, Dobermann, and
GSD breeds. Other names for it are Jekyll-Hyde Syndrome, Avalanche of
Rage Syndrome, Springer Rage, etc.
"Idiopathic" means "of unknown origin," and that pretty much says it
all.
Treatment with anticonvulsant drugs is thought to work in some cases,
otherwise it is incurable.
And because it's thought to be a poly-genetic disease and relatively
rare, it's fairly difficult to cull these animals from breeding
programs.
>Right now Bo is back with his breeder -- I can no longer trust him near my other
>dogs. She also wanted to observe him and talk to her vet and run some tests.
>She has never had a problem like this before (and yes I believe her because she
>is also a good friend). He's been there almost a week and has exhibited no
>symptons so far.
Is the dog being kept confined to a kennel? If so, that may mask or
delay any reoccurrences. Perhaps the breeder will allow the dog to be
kept inside her home, preferably with other male dogs around, during
this observation period?
>We both know the lines that this dog was bred from and have
>friends who know the line for generations over many years and none of them have
>heard of this happening. That's what is so upsetting about it.
According to Dr. Bruce Fogel, D.V.M.:
"Typically dogs that suffer from this type of idiopathic aggression
are usually affectionate, obedient, pleasant, well-mannered canines
who, for no reason whatsoever, suddenly and ferociously turn on their
owners or visitors, biting legs arms or faces. The observant owner
might notice a glazed other worldly look to their dog's eyes just
before an attack but other than that, there is no warning. Some dogs
will remain subdued for a short while afterwards. Others snap out of
it almost immediately and return to their normal affectionate ways."
>Thank you again for the information -- this newsgroup is a great resource!
Karen, if you hadn't said that you were a pretty knowledgeable and
experienced dog owner, with even an obedience trials background, I'd
have probably offered *dominance aggression* as another distinct
possibility -- but that now seems improbable.
You might want to have a canine behaviorist observe this dog in person
before any final determination is made. Make sure it's someone who
has some experience with idiopathic aggression. Your neighborhood vet
is not going to be of much help to you here, I'm afraid.
Again, Karen, please let us know how this all turns out, either
publicly or privately? And good luck!
Leslie Weinberg
one ever mentioned this on this or any other group. How do you distinguish this
from dominance aggression and is this synonymous with sudden rage syndrome? My GSD
only bit once, the rest of the time, he simply threatened, almost as though someone
had turned on a switch, and then he immediately went back to his usual loving
behavior. Leslie
Dogman wrote:
> publicly or privately? And good luck!
Adrienne Caldwell
Dogman wrote:
> Upon my taking a break from listening to the Walter Trout Band, Sun,
> 23 Aug 1998 13:49:38 -0400, Adrienne Caldwell <a...@mindspring.com>
> says:
>
> >Hi Karen. Given that you have socialized Bo from 3 months of age, and his
> >behavior changed so suddenly and unexpectedly, I would rule out any type of
> >neurological problem.
>
> I wouldn't.
>
> And perhaps you didn't mean to, either, eh? It's a little unclear.
Oh wow - a dangling modifier. I meant if I were Karen I would have a
neurological problem ruled out. I guess that became clearer (I hope farther on
in the message).
> > A neurologist at a major animal medical center would
> >be your best bet for this as many small vet clinics have little experience
> >with this specialized area. I had a similar problem with one of my dogs
> >which turned out to be the result of allergy attacks.
>
> I'd be surprised to hear that this behavior is allergy-related. My
> first guess would be *idiopathic rage.* Perhaps a neurological exam
> will turn up something. Maybe a tumor, etc.
I didn't mean that Bo's problem was related to allergies. I just meant that a
neurologist is a good place to start for this type of problem.
> >Her condition was
> >treated for about six months with Prozac and then everything was fine. It
> >was a neurologist and an allergist at New York Medical Center that figured
> >out what her problem was. Prior to this I had gone to a local vet that
> >suggested my dog be euthanized.
>
> Adrienne, would you please tell us more about this?
>
> For example, what kind of allergy was it, and how exactly did it cause
> your dog's similar aggressive and aberrant behavior?
Basically, my dog was allergic to many elements in the environment, including
her own skin and fur, making her extremely sensitive and vigilant of being
touched. Also following every aggressive attack there were severe bouts of
sneezing. So I guess she was feeling sinus pain before an allergy attack and
not knowing the source of the pain was lashing out at anyone nearby. If this
sounds to unbelievable your free to contact the neurologist - Dr. Karen Kline,
New York Animal Medical Center.
> >Fortunately, I did not take his advice and
> >she is here right now curled up comfortably at my feet. She also had
> >similar problems when in heat and developed an hysterical pregnancy. So
> >maybe discuss nuetering Bo (given his particular problem) with the
> >neurologist.
>
> I'd also be surprised if neutering this particular dog has any
> significant effect.
If a dog has any type of neurological problem, the extra hormones from not
being neutered could slightly, but not drastically, cause further
complications.
Henry McGrattan
wrote:
>loves). But this time he was not leaning into the ear-rub and groaning
>like he usually did. He was very still and eventually he growled at
>me. Now I've been around dogs for most of my life. I've trained and
>shown dogs in obedience. I'm more or less "in tune" with my dogs. I've
>had Danes for years. This dog just plain scared me. I just could not
>"read" him and he had a strange look in his eyes. I gave him a final
>pat and walked off. Later he was back to his old self.
This sounds very serious and dangerous. I suppose you could have a
very dominant dog, and that would explain it as the dominance shows up
as he gets older. A friend of mine had to get rid of her doberman
when it started challenging her for food--a couple of times she was
walking with a sandwich and the dog 'mugged' her for it.
Even Jane Goodall in her observation of chimpanzees found a few that
were innately aggressive and would attack and even kill other chimps.
Aggression can be a genetic trait.
A less likely but possible cause could be a brain disorder. Brain
tumors cause lots of aggression, disinhibition, and unpredictable
behavior. Or an accidental fall or bump on the head could cause a
closed head injury. These things don't alleviate spontaneously. Head
injuries are very difficult to detect and don't show up on x-rays
though.
Good luck. It sounds like a risky situation.
Henry McGrattan:
E-mail: h...@globalserve.net
or: henry.m...@ablelink.org
Web page: http://www.globalserve.net/~hm
CML
my 5 year old spayed Akita female, Yoji. Her personality has always been
extremely sweet, docile, affectionate, almost submissive with people,
including strangers. She has, however, been dog aggressive since she was about
2 and it has gotten worse. (She currenlty lives with another a Dalmatian and
they do get into it occassionally.) Here is what has been happening:
1st incident: Last October, I was having a party with friends over. A person
she had never met before came up to her and put his arm around her. She
growled and snapped at him, just barely grazing his face.
2nd incident: Due to housing issues I had to send Yoji home to live with my
parents. We had lived with them the first three years of her life. In January,
a friend of my brothers (who had been living at the house for about a month)
came home around 2am with my brother and his girlfriend. Yoji greeted the
friend affectionately and then went to lay down. My brother and his girlfriend
left the room. The friend got up, walked over to Yoji, who was awake, and
leaned down to pet her. She jumped up, growled, bit him in the face leaving 4
puncture wounds, and lay back down. Immediately before and immediately after
the attack she was perfectly normal and friendly towards him. She went to the
vet and was under house arrest for 10 days. Her former dog trainer thought it
was an isolated incident and not something to worry about.
3rd incident: Friends of my brothers were visiting from out of town. One of
the girls was playing alone with Yoji in the back yard. Yoji growled and
snapped at her face, but did not break the skin surface. The two then went
right back to playing as if nothing had happened. (Apparently the girl owns
rottweilers and was used to being bitten???!!!).
4th incident: Last night after midnight my sister went into the living room.
She turned on the light. Yoji was awake and looked at her. My sister went over
to pet her. Yoji growled and bit her in the face. She needed nine stitches.
Yoji was then completely normal again.
We were able to explain away the earlier attacks, thinking maybe Yoji had felt
threatened by people who weren't part of her household. But this last incident
has really scared us. My first thought is that she needs to be put down. If
she were aggressive all the time it would at least make sense. But these
attacks are totally unpredictable.
If there is any chance my dog can be saved, I need to know about it. But I
also need the people around her to be safe. If this is something like
ideopathic rage can it be cured so that the dog is reliable again?
Elaine Gallegos
Let's see...a great dane that scares you.... I'd have that dog out of my
house so fast that the backdraft would put puncture marks in his neck.
Karen Williams (kog...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I have a 2-year old unneutered male Harlequin Great Dane. (He is
: unneutered because his breeder (co-owner and good friend) intends to
: show him) I've had him since he was 3-months old. From the very start
: he was a very confident, friendly and intelligent dog. He was
: comfortable anywhere he went and I took him lots of places to socialize
: him. He loves everybody. Great temperment. He got along with my other
: dogs (except for my male Pharaoh Hound). He was a constant companion
: and playmate with my spayed female Harlequin and my female Pharaoh
: Hound. The 3 of them slept on my bed every night.
: About a month ago my female Harl had a biopsy done on her foot. I had
: been giving her antibiotics twice a day for several days. The 3 dogs
: had just come into the house and I was giving Zelda her pills. Bo (the
: male Dane) was standing in front of her watching. He quietly walked
: around behind me and attacked Zelda by grabbing her by the back of her
: neck. He was serious!! By the time I hauled him off her and dragged
: him outside she had several good punctures in her neck -- deep enough to
: need stitching. This took us both totally by surprise. She didn't even
: realize he was serious until it was too late. That's incident #1.
: Incident #2. Bo has been isolated from Zelda. She and the other dogs
: were outside. I was talking in the phone with my male Pomeranian
: sitting on my lap. Bo was lying on the floor at my feet. He had been
: on the couch too, but then moved to the floor. He lay there for about 5
: minutes. I hadn't moved. The Pom hadn't moved. I was still talking on
: the phone. Bo stood up, casually turned around and went for the Pom. I
: deflected him and the Pom (sensing his life was in danger) took off for
: the bedroom.
: Incident #3
: So now Bo is totally isolated from the other dogs. I have him either in
: my riding ring where he had plenty of room to run or in a pen in the
: back bedroom. I was visiting him and rubbing his ears (which he
: loves). But this time he was not leaning into the ear-rub and groaning
: like he usually did. He was very still and eventually he growled at
: me. Now I've been around dogs for most of my life. I've trained and
: shown dogs in obedience. I'm more or less "in tune" with my dogs. I've
: had Danes for years. This dog just plain scared me. I just could not
: "read" him and he had a strange look in his eyes. I gave him a final
: pat and walked off. Later he was back to his old self.
: Does anyone have any idea what this could be? His "attacks" have been
: silent and very deliberate. If he was having some sort of a "fit" I
: don't think he'd care who he attacked. Any ideas or suggestions would
: be greatly appreciated.
Karen Williams
in your household with your dogs just to see what would happen? For the time being,
a kennel run is the safest place for him to be while he is undergoing testing. I've
passed all the posts on this subject to the breeder and will post any new information
that comes my way.
Dogman wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >Right now Bo is back with his breeder -- I can no longer trust him near my other
> >dogs. She also wanted to observe him and talk to her vet and run some tests.
> >She has never had a problem like this before (and yes I believe her because she
> >is also a good friend). He's been there almost a week and has exhibited no
> >symptons so far.
>
> Is the dog being kept confined to a kennel? If so, that may mask or
> delay any reoccurrences. Perhaps the breeder will allow the dog to be
> kept inside her home, preferably with other male dogs around, during
> this observation period?
>
Adrienne Caldwell
major animal medical center, and by a doctor of animal behavior. The cost of
this can get expensive so if there are financial considerations, perhaps a
hospital affiliated with your local aspca can help. Most aspca organizations
have animal behavior hotlines. I don't know where your located but there is a
free animal behavior helpline in NYC. "The helpline's telephone number is (212)
727-7257, and its hours of operation are between 1PM and 3PM (EST), 7 days per
week." http://www.inch.com/~dogs/helpline.html
There are many types of treatments for neurologically based problems that cause
aggression problems of this sort and many of them successful. But it is really
only a neurologist in conjunction with an animal behaviorist that can treat it
and determine the outcome.
One sign of idiopathic rage (also often referred to as dog schizophrenia) is the
dog's eyes turning red, just before and during the attack, in addition to a
glazed look in the eyes. After the attack they often have no recollection of
what they just did and go on to behave as if nothing happened. But then again a
dog with trainable territorialism can also act as if nothing happened after the
fact because they somehow know what they did was wrong and try to sort of
apologize by acting playful and wagging their tail.
I wish you and Yoji the best of luck and hope there is a happy ending like I had
with my dog.
Adrienne
Leslie Weinberg
What is happening here with all of these dogs? I posted info attesting to the same kind
of behavior in my GSD a few months back, and never heard about all this. It probably
wouldn't have mattered, since there was no way we could live with him, but I'm seeing
more and more people posting an identical kind of unexplained and unprovoked "rage"
which is preceded by and followed by total calm, as though nothing had happened. Leslie
Karen Williams wrote:
> We are talking about a very fit 160+ pound dog here! Would you want him turned loose
> in your household with your dogs just to see what would happen? For the time being,
> a kennel run is the safest place for him to be while he is undergoing testing. I've
> passed all the posts on this subject to the breeder and will post any new information
> that comes my way.
>
> Dogman wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >
> > >Right now Bo is back with his breeder -- I can no longer trust him near my other
> > >dogs. She also wanted to observe him and talk to her vet and run some tests.
> > >She has never had a problem like this before (and yes I believe her because she
> > >is also a good friend). He's been there almost a week and has exhibited no
> > >symptons so far.
> >
> > Is the dog being kept confined to a kennel? If so, that may mask or
> > delay any reoccurrences. Perhaps the breeder will allow the dog to be
> > kept inside her home, preferably with other male dogs around, during
> > this observation period?
> >
Dogman
24 Aug 1998 00:31:27 -0400, Leslie Weinberg <l...@bway.net> says:
>This was the problem I was having with the GSD I just gave to the trainer, and no
>one ever mentioned this on this or any other group. How do you distinguish this
>from dominance aggression and is this synonymous with sudden rage syndrome?
It's not easy to do, Leslie. It usually takes someone (usually a
canine behaviorist) with a lot of experience with aggression problems.
And they usually have to observe your dog in your home, etc.
That's why vets are not usually a good source of information for this
problem.
>My GSD only bit once, the rest of the time, he simply threatened, almost as though someone
>had turned on a switch, and then he immediately went back to his usual loving
>behavior. Leslie
What happened with this dog after he went to your trainer?
Dogman
24 Aug 1998 01:53:05 -0400, Adrienne Caldwell <a...@mindspring.com>
says:
[...]
>> >Her condition was
>> >treated for about six months with Prozac and then everything was fine. It
>> >was a neurologist and an allergist at New York Medical Center that figured
>> >out what her problem was. Prior to this I had gone to a local vet that
>> >suggested my dog be euthanized.
>>
>> Adrienne, would you please tell us more about this?
>>
>> For example, what kind of allergy was it, and how exactly did it cause
>> your dog's similar aggressive and aberrant behavior?
>
>Basically, my dog was allergic to many elements in the environment, including
>her own skin and fur,
An autoimmune disease, eh?
>making her extremely sensitive and vigilant of being
>touched. Also following every aggressive attack there were severe bouts of
>sneezing. So I guess she was feeling sinus pain before an allergy attack and
>not knowing the source of the pain was lashing out at anyone nearby. If this
>sounds to unbelievable your free to contact the neurologist - Dr. Karen Kline,
>New York Animal Medical Center.
[...]
I have no reason not to believe you, Adrienne, but this is a very rare
condition, eh? I've been unable to find anything in the literature
about it.
But surely I'll keep it in mind in the future. Thanks for the
information!
:>)
Dogman
1998 16:47:28 GMT, Karen Williams <kog...@worldnet.att.net> says:
>We are talking about a very fit 160+ pound dog here! Would you want him turned loose
>in your household with your dogs just to see what would happen?
[...]
Well, if *I* was the *breeder* of these dogs, you bet I would. And if
I wouldn't, maybe I shouldn't be breeding in the first place.
If *I* was the breeder, I'd do just about ANYTHING to get to the
bottom of this "problem."
ALLIPAT
impossible to diagnose something like this over the net, and knowing more
details about her training and whatnot would help a lot, but in her case my
vote is on dominance aggression, not idiopathic rage. She's a member of a
dominant breed, and she's bitten when somebody has tried to pet her as she's
been resting alone. That, to me, seems to be a pretty clear signal she's
trying to send: Leave me alone! I choose when I want to interact! And after
the first time, she must have gotten the idea that her strategy works... I
forgot to ask in my other post, what do you do when she bites (or tries to
bite) people in the face?
Cindi
c...@ix.netcom.com
Leslie Weinberg
solid weeks. Although the dog was more "obedient" his aggression was beginning to show ( he
was one year old when training ended). I went back to the trainer a couple of times, I then
called in a well-reputed behaviorist, Dr. Peter Borchelt. After the dog actually bit
someone, the good doctor's response was "Well, you can't always get inside a dog's head to
find out what's going on". I assumed that he was supposed to do just that.
When the trainer realized I had reached my wit's end and did not buy into his theory that
there is no such thing as a bad dog, only a bad owner, he said he would take him and work with
him and send him down to D.C. to an agency he provides dogs for to do dog-man team work.
That's where he is now, and the trainer tells me they love him (I guess I have to believe him,
or WANT to). I asked the trainer why he wouldn't do this a year ago and he said the dog was
not "aggressive" enough then, but since he had bitten, he was now ore quited to that work.
The trainer, the behaviorist, the vet, the person who always boarded my dogs, said it was not
dominance, but no one offered anything else except that the trainer insisted he had to be
TRAINED, and that I wasn't doing my part. To have to exercise the strict control which would
have been necessary and then worry about his reacting one day to someone or something was not
within the realm of possiblity.. Leslie
Dogman wrote:
> Upon my taking a break from listening to the Walter Trout Band, Mon,
> 24 Aug 1998 00:31:27 -0400, Leslie Weinberg <l...@bway.net> says:
>
> >This was the problem I was having with the GSD I just gave to the trainer, and no
> >one ever mentioned this on this or any other group. How do you distinguish this
> >from dominance aggression and is this synonymous with sudden rage syndrome?
>
> It's not easy to do, Leslie. It usually takes someone (usually a
> canine behaviorist) with a lot of experience with aggression problems.
> And they usually have to observe your dog in your home, etc.
>
> That's why vets are not usually a good source of information for this
> problem.
>
> >My GSD only bit once, the rest of the time, he simply threatened, almost as though someone
> >had turned on a switch, and then he immediately went back to his usual loving
> >behavior. Leslie
>
> What happened with this dog after he went to your trainer?
>
AVRAMA GINGOLD
(Do tell your vet exactly what happened.) Neurological workup if
possible.
Second, what does his breeder say? Has she seen anything similar
in any of his siblings?
Third, a behaviorist/trainer to observe what is happening, if
possible.
Fourth--good luck!
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] "What is man without the beasts?"
AVRAMA GINGOLD
C> she had never met before came up to her and put his arm around her. She
C> growled and snapped at him, just barely grazing his face.
That shows she was holding back, restricting her behavior. If someone
I didn't know put his arm around me I bloody well would growl.
C> 3rd incident: Friends of my brothers were visiting from out of town. One of
C> the girls was playing alone with Yoji in the back yard. Yoji growled and
C> snapped at her face, but did not break the skin surface. The two then went
C> right back to playing as if nothing had happened. (Apparently the girl owns
C> rottweilers and was used to being bitten???!!!).
No--apparently she owns dogs and was able to read Yoji's message.
C> 4th incident: Last night after midnight my sister went into the living room.
C> She turned on the light. Yoji was awake and looked at her. My sister went ov
C> to pet her. Yoji growled and bit her in the face. She needed nine stitches.
C> Yoji was then completely normal again.
This is the one frightening incident, especially if your sister is part
of your household.
C> If there is any chance my dog can be saved, I need to know about it. But I
C> also need the people around her to be safe. If this is something like
C> ideopathic rage can it be cured so that the dog is reliable again?
The first thing to do is get Yoji to a vet for a complete physical,
including a neurological workup. If there is a physical cause, you
have a good idea of what can be done. If not, and you are willing
to go the extra mile, get a trainer/behaviorist who is experienced
in inappropriate aggression, and have him/her observe Yoji, and advise
what can be tried.
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] People have all the theories;dogs have all the facts.
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Dogman <dog...@i1.net> wrote in article <35e262cc...@news.i1.net>...
>snip
> I'd be surprised to hear that this behavior is allergy-related. My
> first guess would be *idiopathic rage.* snip
>
Do please quote the scientific paper journal or other source in which you
find Springer Rage identified in any other breed. Idiopathic rage is a
breed specific problem *if* it truly exists at all as some behaviorists
believe that they have trained 'diagnosed' dogs out of this problem which
would be impossible if it was truly idiopathic.
Nancy
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
first person did a standard dog dominance signal by putting an 'arm' over
the dog's neck and shoulders to 'hug' it! That IMO is just asking an
improperly trained dominant dog to bite you!
Nancy
ALLIPAT <all...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199808242249...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Regarding Yoji, I just posted a reply to your other post... Again, it's
nearly
> impossible to diagnose something like this over the net, and knowing more
> details about her training and whatnot would help a lot, but in her case
my
Dogman
1998 01:54:18 GMT, "Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin"
<fmka...@ix.netcom.com> says:
>Dogman <dog...@i1.net> wrote in article <35e262cc...@news.i1.net>...
>> I'd be surprised to hear that this behavior is allergy-related. My
>> first guess would be *idiopathic rage.* snip
>Do please quote the scientific paper journal or other source in which you
>find Springer Rage identified in any other breed.
Damn, Holmes, pay attention! You continue to be the dumbest SOB here.
Springer Rage *isn't* identified in any other breed!
If the dog isn't a Springer, it's usually called something else, for
example, Jekyll-Hyde Syndrome, etc.
Idiopathic aggression is known by various names, only *one* of them
happens to be "Springer Rage."
Springer Rage = Idiopathic rage, idiopathic aggression, etc.
>Idiopathic rage is a breed specific problem *if* it truly exists at all
That's BULL CA CA.
*No one* of any repute disputes the existence of idiopathic
aggression.
And it's *not* breed specific. It's just that the syndrome apparently
presents itself in some breeds much more than in others (for example,
the ESS, Cocker Spaniel, Bernese Mountain Dog, St. Bernard,
Rottweiler, Dobermann, and GSD breeds, but it's been observed to some
extent in virtually all the breeds, even in mixed-breeds or mongrels.
>as some behaviorists
>believe that they have trained 'diagnosed' dogs out of this problem which
>would be impossible if it was truly idiopathic.
Geeeeeeeeeeeez.
If a dog can be "trained" out of its "problem" (and many, many are),
it's because idiopathic aggression was INCORRECTLY diagnosed in the
first place(as it often is)!
That is, often when someone can't figure out precisely what the
problem is (veterinarians most often), they just lump it into the
idiopathic category, when it was simply a dominance or fear aggression
problem.
Very few vets have any real experience with aggression problems.
There is *no* cure for idiopathic aggression. It can't be "trained"
out of a dog, and that's precisely why it's called idiopathic
aggression, and it's *extremely* rare in most breeds.
Most forms of aggression, on the other hand, if *correctly* diagnosed
in the first place, can indeed be corrected through proper training.
So, by DEFINITION, idiopathic aggression, or rage, is a chronic and
spontaneous aggression behavior that CAN'T BE TRAINED OUT.
Geeeeeeeeeeeeez
PS: Tell Nelson that I feel his pain.
:>(
J1Boss
>
>The trainer worked with him once a week in my home and then took him to his
>place for three
>solid weeks. Although the dog was more "obedient" his aggression was
>beginning to show ( he
>was one year old when training ended).
******* The old "send the dog away" method of training. Know how most of those
trainers work dogs? This is a generalization, but most of them are macho "slam
'em into submission" types who believe in very heavy-handed drilling of dogs.
I've seen perfectly non-aggressive dogs return from "boot camp", who now
"respect" (read: FEAR) the trainer, but see everyone else as subordinates, and
show aggression toward anyone who interferes with their life and choices.
"Board and train" is for people who can't be bothered putting time into their
dogs. If you want the understanding of your dog, and respect from your dog,
YOU have to be the trainer.
.> I then
>called in a well-reputed behaviorist, Dr. Peter Borchelt. After the dog
>actually bit
>someone, the good doctor's response was "Well, you can't always get inside a
>dog's head to
>find out what's going on". I assumed that he was supposed to do just that.
>
********* The dog doesn't respond verbally like people do, and any HUMAN
psychiatrist will tell you that it is not always possible to get to the root of
a problem. Did you think a behaviorist has some sort of "magic tool" to see
into a dog's thoughts? Dogs will always remains SOMETHING of a mystery to us -
their methods of communication are limited.
Janet Boss<BR>
Best Friends Dog Obedience<BR>
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"<BR>
<BR>
"Read your question for the obvious answer"
Leslie Weinberg
other GSDs with no problem. This one had a Jeckyll-Hyde personality, and a lot of
other problems as well. He went to the trainer because I was desperate, and di I
not worry about his methods of training? Yes, I did, but I had no other solution
at the time. Leslie
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Idiot pathetic rage = Dogman when he's blowing smoke.
Nancy
Dogman <dog...@i1.net> wrote in article <35f6320c...@news.i1.net>...
> snip BS
Dogman
1998 02:16:54 GMT, "Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin"
<fmka...@ix.netcom.com> says:
>Dogman - I guess John Fisher was a nobody in your estimation.
>Idiot pathetic rage = Dogman when he's blowing smoke.
>Nancy
Nancy, please, you're embarrassing yourself again.
Now I really fee Nelson's pain.
It must be absolutely horrible to be paired with a fruitcake like you.
:>(