My golden bit my 5 year old son
Jeff Stapleton
son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
under our frontroom table). Because he is a golden retriever he likes to
retrieve shoes and towels and put them under his den. We have a 14 year old
and a 9 year old who along with our 5 year old can not pet or try and take
their shoe or towel away from our dog without the dog growling and sneering
at them when he is under the table.
Just this morning, our 5 year old went to take a towel away from our dog and
he growled and then bit him on the face. This was the first time he had
every done that and it was a minor bite. Our dog has never bit anyone else
before. My husband and I seem to be the only people who can take away an
object under the table without him growling. He generally doesn't chew up
the object he just likes to retrieve. He is a very gentle, patient and
loving dog in every other aspect. When he is not under his den he doesn't
growl at all at anybody and everybody including our children loves this dog
very much. Even now only a matter of about an hour later, he is licking
and playing with our 5 year old son with us observing of course. It's as if
our dog has no recollection of the incident at all. He is just a very
playful dog and loving dog to us and everyone else.
What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems to
lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does it
to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
Thanks for your advice!
--
Wendy Stapleton
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old. My
>son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
>when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
>under our frontroom table). Because he is a golden retriever he likes to
>retrieve shoes and towels and put them under his den. We have a 14 year old
>and a 9 year old who along with our 5 year old can not pet or try and take
>their shoe or towel away from our dog without the dog growling and sneering
>at them when he is under the table.
I have a question. You have a large, intact male dog in a house with three
kids...and no one ever taught the dog any manners? Is there a reason why
this dog was not neutered at an early age?
The rule is simple: dogs can not own anything. Period. By allowing this
dog to own that space and the objects he brought into it, *you* created a
situation where the dog would bite. If you have early on trained the dog
to understand that he was at the very bottom of the pack, this would not
have happened. You should be able to take away ANYTHING AT ALL from that
dog, including bones, toys, shoes his food dish, etc. There should be no
"well it's his" involved.
>What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
>children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
Where would you propose to take a Golden who has bitten a child on the
face? Do you think that a rescue group will want him? I seriously doubt
it.
You have three choices: start working with this dog NOW and training this
dog NOW and changing your house set up NOW to keep the dog. This will
include teaching him that no place is so sacred that he can bite people
who go near it. Nor are any stolen objects so much his that he can bite
people who come near them.
If you do not think that you could be successful at doing this, then, if
this dog came from a breeder, talk to her about taking him back. Where did
you buy the dog from? Actually, you should talk to the breeder even if you
plan on keeping the dog...she will want to know about this incident.
If you can not do either one of these things, I would suggest euthanizing
the dog. A Golden who bites kids is not a Golden that can be placed.
Ditching this dog at a sheler is morally wrong. If a family adopts him
(and it is often families that want Goldens), odds are he is going to try
out biting a kid again. I know I would not be able to live with myself
knowing that this can happen...would you be able to live with yourself?
I am sorry to sound so harsh Wendy, but your family has created a tyrant.
Many dogs in the wrong hands are awful. But they were not born this
way...they were allowed to grow up this way.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
==========================================================================
Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A
is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
J1Boss
>I am sorry to sound so harsh Wendy, but your family has created a tyrant.
>Many dogs in the wrong hands are awful. But they were not born this
>way...they were allowed to grow up this way.
>
>Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
I'm not usually a big "what she said" person, but I agree with everything that
Ann has posted and can only add that I see similar situations WAY too often.
Do people really think they're doing right by ignoring very obvious warning
signs?
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
"Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
Jerry Howe
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204114457...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> > I am sorry to sound so harsh Wendy, but your family
> > has created a tyrant.
> > Many dogs in the wrong hands are awful. But they
> > were not born this way...they were allowed to grow
> > up this way.
> >Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
> I'm not usually a big "what she said" person,
Right. You're MOORE of a "what anybody else said," on account of you've
never had an original thought in your life. You're a loser, janet. You don't
have the intellect to outwit a puppy dog. That's why you KILL dogs, janet.
HOWE about that little dog in the thread "interested in hearing?" He was a
good dog, and YOU HURT HIM.
That wasn't NICE janet. You HURT HIM because you don't know any better.
> but I agree with everything that Ann
Yes, your pal ann is an imbicile. You agree with lyingdogDUMMY when he says
you'd NEED to HURT a dog MOORE than we'd LIKE for some simple behavior
problems, janet. You are an incompetent, dog abusing, ignorant, Thug. You
KILL dogs you are afraid of and can't HURT ENOUGH to make them BEST FRIENDS.
You're a hypocrite, janet. You've got no right working with any shelter or
rescue organization. Same goes for your pals lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn and
cindiymooreon and john richardson. You're all cowards to the core.
Tell Paul and Marty HOWE to stop their dogs from eating poo without HURTING
them MOORE than we'd LIKE, as your pal lyingdogDUMMY says he'd NEED to do.
The entire Gang OF Thugs APPROVES of that janet, INCLUDING YOU.
Marty and Paul didn't LIKE that training solution, so they studied my manual
and broke their dog's behavior problems in few minutes over a couple of
days, just like it says in the text to tried unsucessfully and
disingenuiously to discredit. Get the hell out of this business before you
hurt and kill any MOORE dogs and hurt the families who TRUST you. YOU KNOW
you are not competent to train these dogs or ANY dogs.
Your advice is what got Samson dead. Why don't you tell this poster HOWE to
train their dog??? Go ahead. Talk dog training. Tell us HOWE to train a
minor behavior problem like this. YOU'D HURT THIS DOG.
> has posted and can only add that I see similar
> situations WAY too often.
Yes indeed. That's because your training methods provoke problems like that.
> Do people really think they're doing right by ignoring
> very obvious warning signs?
You mean the first time the dog growled. I agree. That's history though. Got
any training advice besides HURT and KILL the dog? No boss, yu've got your
FEAR, AND THAT'S ALL YOU GOT.
> Janet Boss
> Best Friends Dog Obedience
> "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
You teach NICE with a pronged choke collar. And now you got ME. j;~}
> "Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
> see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
"Unless the dog bites the first hand," kieron.
NICE, eh? j;~}
e. saxon
<j...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old. My
> son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
> when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
> under our frontroom table).
<snip>
hi Wendy,
first, i must say pay close attenion to what Ann wrote. you've
permitted your dog to establish territory and privilege in your
household that has put him as well as your children in peril.
you need to do something about this. it requires time and effort from
your entire family, but it isn't impossible. surely your pet is worth
it.
if i were you i would not depend on this newsgroup for specific advise
about the dynamics of your household. no one here can observe &
interpret who's doing what.
ask your vet for a referal to a behaviorist and/or trainer who can come
have a look at what's going on and suggest a course of re-training.
depending on where you live, often your local humane soc. or a.s.p.c.a.
will have a behaviorist available to the public.
Diane Blackman, who posts here regularly has an excellent website that
covers agression problems and has many useful links.
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
all in all you need to exercise common sense. until you get some help,
don't allow your children to attempt to take things from the dog, and
don't permit your dog to collect objects under the table.
> When he is not under his den he doesn't
> growl at all at anybody and everybody including our children loves this dog
> very much. Even now only a matter of about an hour later, he is licking
> and playing with our 5 year old son with us observing of course. It's as if
> our dog has no recollection of the incident at all. He is just a very
> playful dog and loving dog to us and everyone else.
>
it sounds like he's worth the effort, so good luck then
eve
ps: is there a reason why he's un-neutered???
Helle Haugenes
wrote:
>We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs unless they have
medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering. Nothing
indicates that your dog would not have these problems if he was
neutered.
[..]
>What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
>children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
First; you have to take the dog's signals seriously. He's growling for
a reason, it's important that you respect that and find ways to teach
him that he has nothing to fear (and prove it to him). By that I do
_not_ mean that you're supposed to accept his growling, I mean that
you need to find out how to avoid it.
When living with children, I think every dog deserves a place where he
can be on his own without being bothered by the children. So, an
obvious place to start, is to teach the children to leave him alone in
his "den". (If you don't agree with you need an additional approach to
get the dog to accept being approached by the kids when in his den)
You need to make the dog learn to let go of things, to show him he has
no reason to guard things whether they're his toys or anything else.
Since the kids are the ones having trouble with this, I suggest that
you include them in the training sessions.
Some will think that the way to go about this training is to force the
dog to let go, scold him, or whatever.. I don't because it is more
likely to inforce the behavior. I prefer to turn the guarding
situations into another type of situation so that he will not get a
chance to guard. You can do this by offering some activity, toy or
food in return in the situations where he would normally guard. The
idea is to make him feel like you're not after his things, and
therefore he has no reason to guard. This is easier to explain with an
example:
For instance with the towel under the table: Instead of your son going
under the table and taking the towel away from the dog, he could have
called the dog and asked him to retrieve the towel. In return the dog
would get play, praise, food, etc (Some kind of reward). What happens
then, is that your son would turn the situasjon from: "this is mine"
to "If I am good and bring the towel, I get to have some fun/a
snack/etc".
>Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems to
>lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does it
>to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
I suspect (although I don't know), that it has to do with the same
reason as the dog will growl when the kids approach him in his den.
Kids act differently and often with less "sternness"(?) around dogs.
Therefore the dog can get away with more, or even get insecure (in the
case of the guarding). The kids might give some kind of response to
licking that the dog likes. On the other hand, you might respond
differently.. pushing the dog away or something that is less rewarding
to the dog.
My dog never licks my face because I can't stand the smelly dog
breath, so I can't compare that. But with greeting at the door, she
will go nuts with happiness when certain people come, while all she
gives me is eager tail-wagging. Her different greeting patterns has to
do with the response she gets from different people. I never liked her
jumping and going nuts when I come home.. I like it calm. But the
people she goes nuts when seeing makes all this fuzz, loud noises and
lets her walk all over them. And she loves it.
>Thanks for your advice!
Hope it helps :-)
Helle
Jerry Howe
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95jvl5$dbn$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> I have a question. You have a large, intact male dog
> in a house
Yes indeed. Testicles are scary critters, aren't they? Once you get used to
them, they're not as frightening, they're standard issue on most male models
of almost every make and model year. They've been held close by all life
forms since day one.
> with three kids...and no one ever taught the dog any
> manners?
Manners. HOWE would YOU teach this dog MANNERS?
> Is there a reason why this dog was not neutered at
> an early age?
They didn't mention a sexual problem with their dog.
> The rule is simple: dogs can not own anything.
You mean unless they've got it.
> Period.
Big deal.
> By allowing this dog to own that space and the
> objects he brought into it,
Like a crate, huh.
> *you* created a situation where the dog would bite.
One. There are others as well. Any place the dog can get refuge is it.
> If you have early on trained the dog to understand
> that he was at the very bottom of the pack,
Then he'll try to fight his way to the top of the pack. That's why dogs are
uncomfortable with their alpha dominance freak abusers, and attack them.
Dogs don't think in terms of NUTHIN you're talking about, they're ANIMALS.
> this would not have happened.
If they'd have stomped him to the bottom of the pack, huh.
> You should be able to take away ANYTHING AT ALL
> from that dog,
Then you reach into his crate and take it away. I'll figure out a better way
to address the situation awithout hurting people and killing the dog.
> including bones, toys, shoes his food dish, etc. There
> should be no "well it's his" involved.
Never thought they said that. The dog steals things and goes under with
them. He growls when you pursue him for his prey. That's NORMAL. You've got
to figure out a NORMAL way to encourage the pup to share. Taking it away
from him will only make him want the forbidden fruit EVEN MOORE, and you'll
FIGHT the dog over someting irrelevant, immaterial, and inconsequential, had
you not provoked the dog over somting he has no concept of. Dogs don't
understand GREEK alphas and bettas and omeagas crap, they think
instinctively and reflexively, NOT LIKE A HUMAN.
> > What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog?
> > Should we train our children to stay away from him
> > when he is in his den? Please advise.
> Where would you propose to take a Golden who has
> bitten a child on the face?
I'd probably take him out for a walk first thing in the morning, last thing
at nite, and after he's eaten or drank, and when he indicates he want's to
relieve himself. Where would you take him, to the circus?
> Do you think that a rescue group will want him?
You mean bums like lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn? koehler would HANG that dog.
cindymooreon is a koehler tranier too. So's john richardson, but they'll
deny it. And janet boss makes it quite clear that she'd jerk and choke this
dog on a pronged choke collar and lock it in a crate. What's your point?
NONE. These "rescue" folks ARE the problem.
> I seriously doubt it.
FOR SURE. That's why your pals need to get the hell out of this business
before they kill any moore dogs. cindymooreon has been banned from two dog
training clubs because she's a sadist.
> You have three choices:
Says YOU?
> start working with this dog NOW and training this
> dog NOW and changing your house set up NOW to
> keep the dog. This will include teaching him that no
> place is so sacred that he can bite people who go
> near it.
Fine. Tell us HOWE. lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn would leave a line on the
dog's lead and drag the dog out of there and HANG IT. That's the state of
the art, unless you wanted to use the MOORE HUMANE sadoelectronic shock
collar to MAKE this dog friendly.
> Nor are any stolen objects so much his that he can
> bite people who come near them.
That's another issue all together. Tell us HOWE to stop him from stealing
stuff. Obedience training is not an answer.
> If you do not think that you could be successful at
> doing this, then, if this dog came from a breeder,
You think the breeder is going to know MOORE about training this dog than a
competent trainer?
> talk to her about taking him back.
Brilliant. Their question wasn't HOWE to dump the dog, their question was
HOWE to train the dog.
> Where did you buy the dog from? Actually, you should
> talk to the breeder even if you plan on keeping the
> dog...she will want to know about this incident.
Perhaps, but this isn't a major issue.
> If you can not do either one of these things, I would
> suggest euthanizing the dog.
But of course. You'd KILL their dog rather than tell them to listen to
Jerry. This is my line of work.
> A Golden
is a dog like any other dog IS a dog.
> who bites kids is not a Golden that can be placed.
Because your pals are incompetent to train a dog like that. This dog doesn't
need to be thrown out of his home and KILLED, he needs a little training,
maybe just a FEW MINUTES of work, and the problem is solved. You'd KILL him
based on the say so of some MOOREONS who'd jerk and choke dogs to train
them.
> Ditching this dog at a sheler is morally wrong.
You are an offensive sot, you know that? The whole damn bunch of you use
stupid fear tactics to justify hurting and killing dogs. That's the biggest
part of the problem right there.
WE'RE DEALING WITH UNEDUCABLE HUMANS.
> If a family adopts him
You've already got his blanket and milk bone packed up to send to the
killers. NICE GUY THAT YOU ARE.
> (and it is often families that want Goldens),
Could be, lots of times trainers like lyindogDUMMY or lyingfrosty dahl or
sionnach or susan fraser would LOVE to have a nice Golden to kill birdies
with, they'd fix this dog up overnight with a little ADVANCED TRAINING to
enhance the bond between trainer and dog, eh?
But YOU STILL RATHER KILL HIM.
> odds are he is going to try out biting a kid again.
Odds are, that's why they're looking for HELP. And you're only helping DOOM
the dog.
> I know I would not be able to live with myself
> knowing that this can happen...would you be able to
> live with yourself?
Nice touch. Add GUILT to FEAR. Now you've got a truly out of control
situation going ONLY BASED on YOUR FEARS, MISCONCEPTIONS, and the past
results YOU'VE SEEN from YOUR PALS INAPPROPRIATE, INEFFECTIVE, and
RIDICULOUS handling and training methods.
> I am sorry to sound so harsh Wendy,
No. You don't sound HARSH. You sound emotional, fearful, ignorant, and
insidiously cowardly.
> but your family has created a tyrant.
Yes, that's you perception. And your response is to fight fire with fire,
but becasue of the kids, you know THEY can't abuse the dog like YOU could,
so, it's KILL the dog TO BE FAIR.
> Many dogs in the wrong hands are awful.
Many dog lovers with misinformation are awful. That's why I'm here.
> But they were not born this way...
Don't talk about what you don't know.
> they were allowed to grow up this way.
Well, give us some SOLUTIONS besides fill everyone with guilt and fear and
tell them to KILL their dog. I never could get used to doing that, so I
figured out ways we don't NEED to HURT and KILL dogs.
> Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
Yes, a dog lover, huh?
==========================================================================
> Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A
> is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}
Jerry Howe
"e. saxon" <rho...@mcs.com> wrote in message
news:040220011215214183%rho...@mcs.com...
> hi Wendy,
> first, i must say pay close attenion to what Ann
> wrote.
ann didn't write anything. ann told them they should get rid of the dog and
filled them with fear and guilt to justify KILLING their dog. She went to
great lengths to SCARE them and to HURT the dog.
> you've permitted your dog to establish territory and
> privilege in your household that has put him as well
> as your children in peril.
Take it easy. This is a very simple problem with a lot of practical solution
that you bums haven't ever thought of, because you're too scared and have no
basis in understanding training, to be able to believe there are solutions.
> you need to do something about this.
You gonna give some suggestions?
> it requires time and effort from your entire family,
> but it isn't impossible.
Good. So you'll tell us HOWE to do it.
> surely your pet is worth it.
ann suggested killing the dog and gave several reasons to justify killing
the dog. That's the consensus of opininion around here. KILL THE DOG TO BE
FAIR.
> if i were you i would not depend on this newsgroup
> for specific advise about the dynamics of your
> household.
You can't depend on MOST of the advice coming from rpdb, because most of our
regular contributors are lying, dog abusing cowards who'll talk about
hypothetical situations to scare reasonable people out of their wits' and
convince them to hurt and kill their dogs, because THAT'S ALL THEY KNOW.
> no one here can observe & interpret who's doing
> what.
I'm glad you mentioned that. This is the excuse our dog abusers like to use
to not be forced to tell us HOWE they'd HURT our dogs MOORE than we'd LIKE,
to resolve some simple behavior problems, even much simpler than this one.
> ask your vet for a referal to a behaviorist and/or
> trainer
The chances of finding a competent trainer or behaviorist are less than ten
percent. The vets have available to them exactly the same resoursces as
diane blackman and cindymooreoon and the university of wisc. have. The nilif
program or KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR.
> who can come have a look at what's going on
They say they need to SEE the dog because they are not able to discuss the
problem. They do not know enough about behavior to address the problem
without jerking and choking the dog, that's why they've got to be there in
person. They won't tell you that on the phone or net, but I'll tell you that
because I've been in this business for thirty eight years.
> and suggest a course of re-training.
That can be done over the phone.
> depending on where you live, often your local humane
> soc. or a.s.p.c.a. will have a behaviorist available to
> the public.
INDEED. WE HAVE CINDYMOOREON'S, JANET BOSS'S, LYING"I LOVE KOEHLER"LYNN'S,
JOHN RICHARDSON'S. These are the DOG CHOKERS and KILLERS who won't give
those dogs a fair chance because they are dog abusing COWARDS.
> Diane Blackman, who posts here regularly has an
> excellent website that covers agression problems
> and has many useful links.
She's got the worst collection of the most vicious sites in creation, as
does cindymooreon. They HURT dogs to train them. blackman ADMITS she cannot
differentiate the excellent sites from the crummy sites, like her pal
cindymooreon's faq's page on k-9 web where she teaches people to shove
fingers down puppy's mouths and chin cuff and scruff shake them to break
them of mouthing, jerk and choke them on pronged choke collars, knee them in
the chest, pop them on the snout, twist and pinch ears and toes and shock
dogs and shove their heads into holes she's filled with water to stop them
from digging, and to throw them down by their ears and climb all over them
like a raped ape, her "strongest weapon in her dog training arsenal."
She's been banned from two obedience clubs because she's a SADIST.
<snip vicious links>
> all in all you need to exercise common sense.
Yes. Don't believe bums who'd jerk and choke and kill dogs to train them.
THAT'S COMMON SENSE.
> until you get some help,
And don't expect help from folks who try to use scare tactics to bolster
their arguments, because they don't have any arguments if they're relying on
FEAR to convince you to hurt or kill a dog.
> don't allow your children to attempt to take things
> from the dog, and don't permit your dog to collect
> objects under the table.
We'll discuss that.
> > When he is not under his den he doesn't
> > growl at all at anybody and everybody including our
> > children loves this dog very much. Even now only a
> > matter of about an hour later, he is licking
> > and playing with our 5 year old son with us
> > observing of course. It's as if
> > our dog has no recollection of the incident at all.
> > He is just a very playful dog and loving dog to us
> > and everyone else.
> it sounds like he's worth the effort, so good luck then
> eve
Yes, LUCK. I don't rely on LUCK when I'm training a dog, it's not like
driving a car. THAT requires LUCK.
> ps: is there a reason why he's un-neutered???
Yeah, because testicles are a terrible thing to waste.
There's never been a pair of testicles I've been afraid of. This dog
snapped, he didn't rape.
Jerry Howe
"Helle Haugenes" <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:163r7t8husgur7cqm...@4ax.com...
ChrisP4U
I hope everything works out in the end. There will always be a difference in
opinion. I just hope you find something that works for you and your family.
good Luck.
Chris and Heidi
DogStar716
>medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering.
That is not very good advice. I mean, it doesn't really make sense. No reason
to neuter unless their is medical or BEHAVIORAL problems? Like what? And if
there are behavioral problems that can be solved by neutering, perhaps
neutering before they ever started would have been a better solution?
>So, an
>obvious place to start, is to teach the children to leave him alone in
>his "den".
This dog has forfeited his right to his own space. Of course, children should
always be taught to respect dogs, but in this case, the table space should be
taken away immediatly.
>Since the kids are the ones having trouble with this, I suggest that
>you include them in the training sessions.
I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. If he bit the 5 year old once, he'll do it again.
The parents need to take control first. Here is a link to a very effective
training technique:
http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
Please read this. It could save your dogs life :)
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
"AKC papers do not mean you are getting
a quality dog. They are merely a birth certificate. Even puppy
mill pet shop pups have AKC papers" - Bob Maida
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>>We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
>Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs unless they have
>medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering. Nothing
>indicates that your dog would not have these problems if he was
>neutered.
really? What more would he have to do to show that he has behavioral
probems? Rip off the kid's face? Intact males can have a very well developed
sense of territory and an increased guarding instinct, as well as being
more reactive in general. This dog, who is a Golden Retriever after all,
bit a kid in the face. I am not sure how much worse you would want the dog
to be before you would agree that he has a behavior problem.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>I'm not usually a big "what she said" person, but I agree with everything that
>Ann has posted and can only add that I see similar situations WAY too often.
>Do people really think they're doing right by ignoring very obvious warning
>signs?
What i see over and over in real, not virtual life, are people who are
totally ignorant of dog body language. It's not as scary with say a
Maltese as it can be with oh, a Rottie, but when there are kids around
it's scary as all get-out.
Ann, twzl, Sligo and Roy
Elaine Gallant
"Jeff Stapleton" <j...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:3a7d78e0$0$7163$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net...
> We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
My
> son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
> when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
> under our frontroom table).
Ok, you have a problem. First of all, your dog is not supposed to claim
common areas like living rooms, diing rooms or kitchens as his own private
den.
A dog can have a den, but it has to be in a tucked away place where no one
else ever goes, and he won't be tripped over.
> Because he is a golden retriever he likes to
> retrieve shoes and towels and put them under his den.
Your dog is not retrieving. He is stealing. This is dominant behavior. He is
trying to establish his own territory and stuff, separate from you and your
family.
> We have a 14 year old
> and a 9 year old who along with our 5 year old can not pet or try and take
> their shoe or towel away from our dog without the dog growling and
sneering
> at them when he is under the table.
Hmmm...sweet.
> Just this morning, our 5 year old went to take a towel away from our dog
and
> he growled and then bit him on the face. This was the first time he had
> every done that and it was a minor bite.
Ok, he didn't send the child to the hospital THIS time. These sort of bites
are not isolated incidences. They start off relatively mild, and escalate.
> Our dog has never bit anyone else
> before.
You dog has been on the path to biting someone from the first day he stole
from you.
>My husband and I seem to be the only people who can take away an
> object under the table without him growling.
For now.
> He generally doesn't chew up
> the object he just likes to retrieve.
So?
> He is a very gentle, patient and
> loving dog in every other aspect.
Oy, yes. The every so small matter of him eating part of your son's face.
>When he is not under his den he doesn't
> growl at all at anybody and everybody including our children loves this
dog
> very much. Even now only a matter of about an hour later, he is licking
> and playing with our 5 year old son with us observing of course. It's as
if
> our dog has no recollection of the incident at all.
Your dog has an inflated ego. You are going to have to prevent him from ever
laying claim to ANY territory.
Personally, I would not want to keep a face biter. What if you obedience
train him, he gets better, but then relapses? Happens all the time.
> He is just a very
> playful dog and loving dog to us and everyone else.
>
> What should we do?
Mostly, I'd say to get a trainer to show you how to make this dog submissive
to all human members of the household. He THINKS his status is higher than
the children's.
> Should we get rid of our dog?
I wouldn't have him in my house. However, I would not have let him get so
high on himself that he'd think he could snack on the children at will.
Your kid will be in danger if you decide to keep the dog. You have to be
willing to bet your son's face the dog won't bite again. Those are the
conditions.
Helle Haugenes
>Helle wrote:
>>Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs unless they have
>>medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering.
>That is not very good advice. I mean, it doesn't really make sense. No reason
>to neuter unless their is medical or BEHAVIORAL problems?
.. medical or behavioral problems that can be solved through
neutering. Guarding has nothing to do with sexual behavior and will
not be solved by neutering.
>Like what?
Like too high testoteron production.. cancer in testicles.
> And if
>there are behavioral problems that can be solved by neutering, perhaps
>neutering before they ever started would have been a better solution?
Are you suggesting that we should neuter our dogs to avoid a _a few_
behavioral problems that _might_ occur? In my book that's abuse.
>This dog has forfeited his right to his own space. Of course, children should
>always be taught to respect dogs, but in this case, the table space should be
>taken away immediatly.
I can agree that it might be good to replace the old den with a new
one, but the dog's space should be respected.
>>Since the kids are the ones having trouble with this, I suggest that
>>you include them in the training sessions.
>I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. If he bit the 5 year old once, he'll do it again.
>The parents need to take control first. Here is a link to a very effective
>training technique:
>http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
[..]
The parents are in control when the dog steals.. the children are the
ones having problems dealing with the dog. Thus the parents needs to
teach the children how to deal with the dog.
As for the NILIF-method: It's not all bad, but crating the dog 90% of
the time for several weeks..? How could that solve anything? Besides,
guarding is not a dominance problem, it's a (lack of) confidence
problem.
Helle
Paul Matthews
>>signs?
bingo...
gave my pup a pig's ear last weekend after a shot, first time she yelped for
any of them. She was given it in the back seat of the car on the way home. At a
stoplight, I reached around to see how she was doing with it, and got growled
at. This is a puppy who I have literally taken food out her mouth with no probs
at all. I take food, toys, treats, chew stuff away all the time, and usually
give it back unless it's something she shouldn't have in the first place. She
never blinks an eye, just sits quietly and waits to get it back. Just this
morning, I rubbed the side of her mouth while she was eating and she never
skipped a beat.
Anyways, this time, I got growled at. She got a fast NO and lost the ear then &
there, no questions asked. She got it back the middle of the week, to see how
she'd do a 2nd time. When I took it this time, she looked but didn't put up a
fuss, so she got it back to finish. It's the last pig's ear she gets though.
Nothing tastes good enough to allow her to get protective of it.
The dog is allowed one growl, to find out just what the reaction is. You blew
it by allowing it to continue. In effect, you told the dog, "Go for it, we'll
let you have and do whatever you want." It was made worse by allowing the dog
to have a place he controlled. Your son paid for this. Do you let your kids
take things from you and keep them, or cuss at you? What if it had been a
visitor's toddler who decided to crawl under there and curl up with the big
doggie and take a nap?
I don't care how much some folks on here may argue that raising/training kids &
dogs are different, they're not...both need to know what's ok and what's not.
Respecting others' property and being polite and using self-control are.
Stealing and backtalking and being violent are not. Teach 'em the rules,
enforce the rules, and have fun the rest of the time...works for two legs and
four.
Paul C
Purebred...mix...their tails still wag the same and they'll still grab your
lunch. Scratch an ear anyways.
Jerry Howe
Jerry.
"Helle Haugenes" <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:fkjr7t04md2si27kk...@4ax.com...
Jerry Howe
Just tow points i want to make. The dog in this case was taking stolen goods
to his hideout and the kest were trying to boost his loot. So although this
is unacceptable, we can understand the dog's thinking. The second point is,
that without this motive, and without being a FAMILY MEMBER having
"authority" over the dog, the dog would be much less likely to become
aggressive or defensive.
Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}
"Paul Matthews" <sna...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204175412...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Helle Haugenes
Chang) wrote:
[..]
>P.S. -- To Helle -- testosterone figures into agonistic behavior because
>if nothing else it makes a dog more reactive and far quicker to act even
>if it is not the cause of the behavior itself. A neutered dog may not
>have gotten to the point of biting.
Even so neutering the dog before it bit would not have changed the
fact that the dog feels a need to guard what he considers his. Sooner
or later he may still bite when his growling is not "respected" or
dealt with.
>I also question how "unnecessary"
>you would consider neutering if Norway had the dog overpopulation problem
>that the United States has.
I would be more positive toward neutering _if_ we had the same
overpopulation problem in Norway and people wasn't able to control
their dogs.. yes. But for me it would not be an option because I would
not let my dog get a chance to mate. Having said that; my dog was
spayed a few years back due to pyometra.
Besides, it's the neutering as a quick fix to all behavioral problems
I object to.. Whenever anyone around here has a problem and the dog is
not neutered or spayed, the obvious reason is that the dog isn't
neutered and the obvious solution is to neuter. And it doesn't take a
genius to figure out that both the reason and the solution is
completely wrong 99% of the time. No one ever even mentions
over-population until someone (like me now) claims that intactness is
not the reason and neutering won't fix the problem.
Helle
Jerry Howe
"DogStar716" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204162251...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> > Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs
> > unless they have medical or behavioral
> > problems that requires neutering.
> That is not very good advice.
Says you. You're the bum who laughs at baby birdies getting molested to
death by your dogs on the front porch every spring and jerks and chokes and
confronts dogs to train them.
> I mean, it doesn't really make sense.
Doesn't make sense to you, because you are not sensible.
> No reason to neuter unless their is medical or
> BEHAVIORAL problems? Like what?
Yes, this dog didn't F. the kid. She snapped at him.
> And if there are behavioral problems that can be
> solved by neutering, perhaps neutering before they
> ever started would have been a better solution?
No, because neutering is unnecessary surgery and has risks. If the dog is
properly managed, procreation is not a problem. That's the only thing
neuteing is good for. Testicles are NOTHING to fear, although they ARE
intimidating to some of us who aren't familiar with them. I've never met a
pair of testes I haven't liked.
> > So, an obvious place to start, is to teach the
> > children to leave him alone inhis "den".
Yes, that may be on the right track, but that's not the solution. If they
avoid the dog and if never growls again the underlying problem is still
there.
> This dog has forfeited his right to his own space.
You mean like his crate? Lots of dogs will bite inside their crates,
especially if they're confined to the crate and can see or hear their people
having a good time without them.
> Of course, children should always be taught to
> respect dogs, but in this case, the table space should
> be taken away immediatly.
That'll avoid the problem, not solve it. The problem will only move to
another place. They need to learn HOWE to properly handle and train their
dog. This is a very simple problem, although there are many issues involved
in it.
> > Since the kids are the ones having trouble with
> > this, I suggest that
> > you include them in the training sessions.
> I wouldn't.
Of course you wouldn't. You don't know your butt from the hole in the ground
when it comes to dog training and behavior.
> Not yet anyway.
Because why? Because you'd jerk and choke the dog.
> If he bit the 5 year old once, he'll do it again.
Most likely if you jerk and choke and punish him.
> The parents need to take control first.
Control isn't the issue. They need to learn HOWE to address the problem and
make sure they solve the CAUSE of the behavior, because if we stop the dog
from growling and snapping he may do something worse.
> Here is a link to a very effective
Yeah? Read the post script. See my post "N.I.L.I.F."
> training technique:
> http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Postscript: On Monday, May 6, 1996, Gypsy was euthanized. But Lynda still
swears by NILIF. It made it possible for her and Gypsy to live together for
two years.
> Please read this. It could save your dogs life :)
Yeah? Worked wonders for her didn't it, eh? That's quite a measure of
success, wouldn't you say? That's exactly why I'm telling you that you don't
know what the hell you're doing.
> Dogstar716
Here's the NILIF as it IS:
Hello People,
We always hear "trainers" say to enforce commands.
Don't give a command unless you intend to follow
through with it. "Reinforcement NEVER ends,"
(unless you know HOWE to TRAIN the dog).
That's kind of a dichotomy, I think. Doesn't training
SUPPOSED to END A PROBLEM, not mean that we're
supposed to CONSTANTLY WORRY about the behavior
we've ALLEGEDLY trained???
WHAT GIVES, PEOPLE?
We got trainer telling us to constantly correct dogs
who've ALREADY been trained??? THAT'S NOT MY
EXPECTATION OF TRAINING.
The Nothing In Life Is Free method is touted as being
the most effective way of dominating an obstreperous
dog. The idea is to cause the dog to subordinate
himself to the "AUTHORITY" of his trainer, and increase
the dog's respect for his handler.
O.K. Respect and authority are separate issues from
where I'm going with this. The entire concept of
dominance is wrong, but we'll put that off to
another thread.
What do we do, when we are putting this aggressive or
out of control dog through the nilif program, and he
chooses NOT to do what he's TOLD to?
Are we supposed to give a command we KNOW cannot
be enforced, say for example with a dog who won't allow us to handle him?
Don't you think you're going to look rather silly to the
dog, telling him that YOU are going through the door
first, and he's ALREADY pulling you outside? Or when
you tell him to sit before feeding him his breakfast, and
he's already for a toothpick?
Suppose Fido has an attitude, and you're trying to
shove some food in his head. You tell him to sit, and he
doesn't sit. So, he don't get his dinner. No big deal, he'll
learn, RIGHT?
That may mean he's going to wait till the next meal
time. When you tell him to sit before taking his
breakfast, he's ALREADY quite eager to eat, and
here's poor little YOU, telling him that he's not going to
eat till he sits. So, you put him back in his crate. The
dog is going to figure this out REAL quick. Either sit, or
don't eat, RIGHT?
So, next meal time, you take him to his food bowl, and
tell him to sit, and he takes one look at his breakfast
from two days ago, and says "uh, uh. I'm eatin, go
pound sand."
NOW WHAT?
Next In Line Is a Fight.
THAT'S THE N.I.L.I.F. PROGRAM.
Someone's gonna get HURT.
Ask yourself "WHY DOESN'T JERRY HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?"
And then just answer "BECAUSE JERRY KNOWS HOWE
TO TRAIN DOGS WITHOUT HURTING THEM."
And THEN SAY OUT LOUD: "IGNORE JERRY, HE'S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS."
You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY
handle and train your dog using non force, non
confronatational, scientific and psychological
methods, in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com
The Wits' End Dog Training Method manual is provided
courtesy of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an
alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too).
Helle Haugenes
Happy Together") wrote:
>In <163r7t8husgur7cqm...@4ax.com> Helle Haugenes <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> writes:
>
>>>We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
>
>>Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs unless they have
>>medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering. Nothing
>>indicates that your dog would not have these problems if he was
>>neutered.
>really? What more would he have to do to show that he has behavioral
>probems? Rip off the kid's face? Intact males can have a very well developed
>sense of territory and an increased guarding instinct,
So can neutered dogs..
>as well as being
>more reactive in general. This dog, who is a Golden Retriever after all,
>bit a kid in the face. I am not sure how much worse you would want the dog
>to be before you would agree that he has a behavior problem.
Please read what I write one more time;
"behavioral problems that requires neutering", meaning behavioral
problems that will be solved by neutering the dog.
Helle
Jerry Howe
situations to bolster your foolish arguments.
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95ki97$hpp$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Jerry Howe
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95kijf$i47$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Jerry Howe
You speak from experience, I appreciate that. You've never spoken about your
training program before. You've had yor dog in a number of programs for
months now, and have made minimal progress. You were woried about taking him
home for the holidays to meet your familyl
What's more amazing is the amount of time you spend with Solo. You're with
him 24/7 and do training activities with him. You've worked longer with Solo
than any dog I've ever trained in my life, even over their entire lifespan.
And yet you've got results that would embarass me to death if you were my
student.
But you're satisfied because you were told going into it that this would be
a protracted treatment program probably with drugs and lots of complicated
dominance theory bunk...
You say neuter the dog. He's not copulating, he's snapping.
"Melanie L Chang" <mlc...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:95kn9u$r1s$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> I do also like NILIF programs and think most dogs
> should be trained this way. Lynda Oleksuk's version
> is but one variation. All have the
> following two principles:
NO. This is all she needs to see:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Postscript: On Monday, May 6, 1996, Gypsy was euthanized. But Lynda still
swears by NILIF. It made it possible for her and Gypsy to live together for
two years.
> 1. You control all interactions with the dog. Anything you do,
> you initiate it and you end it. No more petting the dog
> because he came over and nudged your hand. Either you call
> the dog over to pet him, or follow rule 2.
That's in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com
> 2. The dog works for everything he wants.
I make my dogs work because it's their pleasure to work for me.
> Basically the dog learns through NILIF that you
> control his universe and that All Good Things come
> through you.
That's a given. You're argument is foolish.
> Not only does this reinforce
Your false sense of dominance, control, and power.
> your leadership position, but it makes the dog
> comfortable by introducing a rule structure he
> understands and can easily follow.
Sometimes it only makes for confrontation. I'll post my version if the NILIF
below...
> Some NILIF programs are more detailed than others.
Yes, they'll drive you nuts worrying about percieved dominance issues and
set you at odds with your dog in a competition for the keys to the car on
friday nite...
> If you are comfortable working from theory, then
> principles 1 and 2 are all you need to know.
See the post script.
> If you have access to a behaviorist I'd highly
> recommend consulting one (and I mean a real
> veterinary or ethological behaviorist, not a trainer
> who has read a couple of books about behavior).
Right. Cause they're the only ones who're gonna give you a nine month plan
to maybe get your dog under control if you see them every week and pay them
hundreds of hard earned bucks.
> Your dog doesn't sound like a vicious beast by any
> means,
And your dog doesn't sound like you've made the kind of progress that you
should have using everything the behaviorists have to offer. I'd have had
you fixed up in a couple of weeks MAXIMUM.
> but because a child has been bitten it
> would be a good idea to seek professional help.
I don't think you're getting the best help there is for your own dog, or
you'd havebe satisfied with his progress months and months ago.
> Good luck,
Yeah. LUCK. I don't rely on LUCK. I rely on the information in the FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual at http://www.doggydoright.com
> Melanie
> P.S. -- To Helle -- testosterone figures into agonistic
> behavior because if nothing else it makes a dog more
> reactive and far quicker to act even if it is not the
> cause of the behavior itself.
Says who? I've never known that to be true.
> A neutered dog may not have gotten to the point of
> biting.
And you say that because someone who earns money for cutting dogs testicles
off told you? Or because some dog choker who is afraid of testicles told
you? I don't believe that to be the case at all.
> I also question how "unnecessary" you would
> consider neutering if Norway had the dog
> overpopulation problem that the United States has.
They don't have an overpupulation problem because they're not allowed to
have their dogs run free unattended, as it should be. You've got a problem
for testicles because you are afraid, not because they are BAD.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Melanie Lee Chang | Repetition is the death
> Departments of Anthropology and Biology | of art.
> University of Pennsylvania |
> mlc...@sas.upenn.edu | -- Chris Stevens
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}
Jeff Stapleton
Having read the prior posts, some of which, knowing very little about the
situation and the dog, suggest possibly killing the dog. WHAT????
I know every newsgroup has its share of flame wars, but when someone who is
looking for reasonable advice shows up, I wish the flame throwers could be
set aside in favor of good judgement and kindness for the poster. You have
shown both and I appreciate it!
We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the playful
excercises you suggested. Many thanks,
Wendy
Helle Haugenes <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:163r7t8husgur7cqm...@4ax.com...
James L. Ryan
(in message <bcpr7tov4368n9d5p...@4ax.com>):
> I would be more positive toward neutering _if_ we had the same
> overpopulation problem in Norway and people wasn't able to control their
> dogs.
Helle,
My understanding is that possibly until recently neutering of dogs was not
permitted in the Scandanavian countries unless the neutering was performed
for a medically necessary reason. I'd appreciate it if you posted a brief
description of the current Scandanavian laws regarding dog neutering.
Many thanks,
Jim
--
James L. Ryan, TaliesinSoft
Jeff Stapleton
I appreciate your opinions and agree that, at least in this case, the dog
should not be destroyed. I think there are some pretty extreme (putting it
mildly) viewpoints due to the rather obvious flame war here and I must sort
out the wheat from the chaffe and determine which is good advice.
Thanks!
Wendy
Jerry Howe <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5pif6.66204$Tl3.13...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Lappe
understand how wild dogs behave in a pack. Your dog thinks he's
living in a pack not in a family, he doesn't know the concept family.
In dogpacks there is a strict hierarchy with the grown up members at
the top and the youngsters at the bottom. So your dog thinks he's
higher in the hierarchy then your kids. If your dog and your 5 year
old are 'fighting over the possession' of a towel, your dog will be
convinced that it is 'his' towel. And in a sense he's right, he's
higher in the hierarchy because he's a grown up. In his eyes your kid
has no right to try to take away the towel.
If you keep a good pack you and your husband should be the equivalent
of the alpha (fe)male. **Therefore you can forbid your dog to show
any aggression towards your kids.** Your dog will probably think it
isn't fair, but if he sees you as the leader of the pack he will obey,
as long as you're around. So that's why you should **NEVER LEAVE A
DOG ALONE WITH KIDS !** Not even for one minute. Even the kindest,
most submissive dogs behavior changes when there are no adults around.
Whan you're not around the dog will think he's in charge and will
expect that children behave submissive. How much he will tolerate is
different for every dog. And most of the time there won't be any
accidents. But if you leave your kids alone with your dog you are
taking a risk you should not be taking. Most people don't take this
advice seriously enough. Maybe they think the risk is not big enough,
but these are your KIDS we're talking about. And you have already
been given one warning, it mustn't happen againg. Please never, ever
leave your kids and your dog together unattended.
**Also you should teach your kids not to take away any objects from
your dog.**
Jerry HOWE will probably not agree, but believe me, this is good
advice. I hope you'll take it to hard and that no more accidents
happen.
Regards, Philip.
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:44:24 -0600, "Jeff Stapleton" <j...@megsinet.net>
wrote:
>We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old. My
>son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
>when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
(..)
>Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems to
>lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does it
>to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
>
>Thanks for your advice!
>
>--
>Wendy Stapleton
>
>
-----------------------------------
Nature doesn't need to be improved,
it needs respect !
-----------------------------------
Leah
>Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems to
>lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does it
>to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
I read that the only reason a dog licks faces is to get a taste or smell of
food you may have eaten.
Though there may be some truth to it - in particular, it may be the reason why
he licks the children's faces more readily - I believe that it's also the dog's
way of "kissing." I know that many "experts" may sneer at that explanation,
but looking for food doesn't explain why the licking is more frantic when I
first come in the house after being away for a while. Or why I get gentle,
sweet licks back when I'm kissing my dog's head. In other words, my dogs
always tend to lick my face more often at times when one would expect a show of
affection.
Learn How to Can Spam
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Jane Webb
<haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote:
> By that I do
> _not_ mean that you're supposed to accept his growling, I mean that
> you need to find out how to avoid it.
NO!!!
Avoiding it is what these ppl have been trying to do. Oh dear we don't
want to make doggy cross. They've MADE the dog a kid-biter.
You need to teach the dog that growling, toy-hoarding, territory
guarding, etc. are NOT acceptable. Not with anyone, not under any
circumstances.
He *must* be obedience trazined, you *must* find a behaviorist, and
start off with eliminating that table. He is no longer to be allowed a
place where he feels it's OK to bite.
If you aren't willing to do this, kill the dog. You cannot foist him
off on another family.
This is a very important learning experience for your kids. Think very
hard about the way you want to approach this problem which you have
caused.
--
Jane Webb
Moonpie &
Raisin Pie
http://www.webbweave.com
Elaine Gallant
> Jerry,
>
> I appreciate your opinions and agree that, at least in this case, the dog
> should not be destroyed.
Many families are naturally reluctant to destroy their dog, regardless of
how heinous the first attack.
It is generally after the 3-4th. time the reality of the situation sinks in.
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>Jerry,
>I appreciate your opinions and agree that, at least in this case, the dog
>should not be destroyed. I think there are some pretty extreme (putting it
>mildly) viewpoints due to the rather obvious flame war here and I must sort
>out the wheat from the chaffe and determine which is good advice.
You are taking the advice of a loon who, to the best of the knowlege of
anyone on usenet, has never actually trained a dog. That is most certainly
your choice, but please, go back and read what some other folks have
written. I *own* Goldens, I train them, and I have worked with them for
years. And I'm telling you to either do something about the way that this
dog interacts with your family, or euthanize the dog.
You don't have to listen, you can pretend that Jerry and Halle are the big
experts on intact male Golden Retrievers who have become snotty to humans:
that is obviously your call and choice. But if this dog bites again, your
kid might not get off so lucky. One regular poster to this group, who has
been quiet as of late (her PC is off line) would be able to tell teh story
of how a Golden ripped into her brother when he was a kid and left him
with permanant scars and damage. As I said before, a Golden is a big,
powerful dog, and one who bites kids can inflict terrible wounds. I urge
you to work with an experienced dog behaviorist, to talk to this dog's
breeder, and to think about if this dog can safely stay in your house.
Jerry and Helle told you what you wanted to hear: that you don't have to
do diddly squat and that all will be just fine. Other people, including
myself are sounding the alarm here. If you feel that is flaming, well God
help you and your poor kids. I hope that dog doesn't do more dammage next
time. And yes, there will be a next time if you don't do some real work
with this dog.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
DogStar716
>
>Like too high testoteron production.. cancer in testicles
Well, duh! Why wait until the dog gets cancer before you neuter?????
>Are you suggesting that we should neuter our dogs to avoid a _a few_
>behavioral problems that _might_ occur? In my book that's abuse.>>
Actually, I advocate neutering for the simple reason that there are too many
unwanted dogs in the US (and that in my book IS abuse) and neutering renders a
dog incapable of procreating.. Everything after that is just a benefit, such as
less aggression, less marking, less roaming, no testicular cancer. Not to
mention less stress for the owner who has to deal with a sexually mature dog
who only has one thing on his mind and can't go out to get it (if the owner is
diligent). Less stress for the dog as well.
>As for the NILIF-method: It's not all bad, but crating the dog 90% of
>the time for several weeks..? How could that solve anything?
I have no idea. That is the only part of the training technique that I would
not use.
>Besides,
>guarding is not a dominance problem, it's a (lack of) confidence
>problem.
>
Does it really matter? It is a problem, period.
Paul B
a domestic environment. I don't know how my dogs view our setup and it
doesn't really matter, if there is a problem I deal with it with appropriate
methods to extinguish the behaviour but not by challenging the dog or
dictating to them.
I play kong on a rope tug with both my dogs all the time and they don't try
to challenge me when I go to pick up the kong if it's lying about, to them
it's a game, not a test of pack hierarchy.
A dog shouldn't even 'want' to bite the kids, if you have to 'forbid' it
then there are other problems with the relationship with the dog.
I doubt a dog views the world as "fair" or "unfair", things just are in a
dogs world.
Dogs may live with a "pack" mentality in the wild but people don't, we live
within a family environment, and that is what we want our dogs to live in
too, so we need to teach our dogs to live in such an environment, that
environment isn't full of dominance and challenging one another, but
friendly, open, welcoming and most of all respectful. We respect each
others privacy and tolerate each others differences and tantrums etc.
That's how we want our dog to behave. If a dog has a behaviour that's
inappropriate then we teach it so that behaviour ceases as with any other
family member, no need to challenge and dominate.
It seems to me if you put a dog in an environment where it's been challenged
and dominated it will in turn learn to challenge and dominate where it can,
if you put it in an environment where it can learn and make mistakes and be
taught appropriate behaviour then that's how it will behave.
If the dog is made part of the family, then as well as it becoming part of
"our family" we become part of "it's family" or even "it's pack" if you want
and it will protect & not challenge if everything is in order.
It's a mystery to me why you wouldn't trust a dog left alone with children,
if everything's been done properly the dog will have no desire what so ever
to hurt the kids, rather it will want to play and enjoy their company,.
Paul
--
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
"Lappe" <qlife67-no...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a7df77e...@news.freegates.be...
Rocky
<3a7e...@clear.net.nz>:
>It's a mystery to me why you wouldn't trust a dog left alone
>with children, if everything's been done properly the dog
>will have no desire what so ever to hurt the kids, rather it
>will want to play and enjoy their company,.
I agree with what you said, Paul - except your last statement
(above). No training can be guaranteed 100%, whether it's
training the dog how to deal with the kids or training the kids
how to deal with the dog.
And anything less than %100 is not good odds.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Leah
wrote:
>Actually, I advocate neutering for the simple reason that there are too many
>unwanted dogs in the US (and that in my book IS abuse) and neutering renders
>a
>dog incapable of procreating.. Everything after that is just a benefit, such
>as
>less aggression, less marking, less roaming, no testicular cancer. Not to
>mention less stress for the owner who has to deal with a sexually mature dog
>who only has one thing on his mind and can't go out to get it (if the owner
>is
>diligent). Less stress for the dog as well.
Exactly. I agree 100%.
In fact, unless you're a professional breeder, I consider it irresponsibility
to leave any dog un-neutered. There is nothing but benefits in neutering a
dog, and nothing but problems in leaving it intact.
Neutering is a minimally invasive procedure. As the care-givers and protectors
of our pets, we should always make decisions based on what is best for them.
And neutering wins hands down.
Jerry Howe
"Paul B" <NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3a7e...@clear.net.nz...
Jerry Howe
"Rocky" <australia...@cadvision.com> wrote in message
news:903EC7591austr...@130.133.1.4...
e. saxon
Stapleton <j...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> Thanks so much for what appears to me to be a reasonable recommendation!
> Having read the prior posts, some of which, knowing very little about the
> situation and the dog, suggest possibly killing the dog. WHAT????
>
Wendy,
i think you may have mis-interpreted this.
many of the people who in their replies to you listed the option of
euthanising the dog did so in order to illustrate the seriousness of
your families' situation (i include your dog in this).
most of these people work in rescue and/or have rescued pets, and i can
tell you that i (and they) hear stories just like yours attached to
every third dog that gets dumped at the shelter i volunteer at. this
number pales next to the hords of animals turned into our nation's
pounds that get euthanised after their 7 days are up or they flunk a
cursory temprament test.
these dogs aren't incorrigible. for the most part they are unfortunate
to have owners who didn't want to be rude to their dog and eventually
things got way out of hand.
none of us want this future for your dog.
desparately.
if i've read this thread correctly, (barring j. howe) the majority
consenses is that your pup should not be permitted to establish and
defend territory from your members of your family. Melanie has given
you some wonderful reading advice, and you've been refered to NILIF.
you've decided to accomodate your dog, and i hope that works for you.
personally i think it's a mistake. i grew up in a household with an
accomodated dog, and eventually we rarely had company --the dog &
children were too unpredictable. on the other hand, the dog lived to a
ripe old age. i was bitten several times, but my parents felt it was my
fault.
if Helle's sugestions don't work, i hope you'll at least re-examine
Jane, Dogstar, Ann & Melanie's posts before giving up or dumping your
dog.
eve
Elaine Gallant
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95kijf$i47$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> In <20010204114457...@ng-fw1.aol.com> j1b...@aol.com (J1Boss)
writes:
>
> >I'm not usually a big "what she said" person, but I agree with everything
that
> >Ann has posted and can only add that I see similar situations WAY too
often.
> >Do people really think they're doing right by ignoring very obvious
warning
> >signs?
>
>
> What i see over and over in real, not virtual life, are people who are
> totally ignorant of dog body language. It's not as scary with say a
> Maltese as it can be with oh, a Rottie, but when there are kids around
> it's scary as all get-out.
My neighbor's Maltese latched onto her 2yr.old son's upper lip. The dog
amputated the lip by 3/4.
Elaine Gallant
The original poster is simply ignorant of the power in a large dog's jaws.
She will get a quick education if they end up having to pay for the services
of a plastic surgeon.
"e. saxon" <rho...@mcs.com> wrote in message
news:040220012144075155%rho...@mcs.com...
Elaine Gallant
Ann is the top advisor on the internet on every issue relating to Golden
Retrievers.
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204114457...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> >
> >I am sorry to sound so harsh Wendy, but your family has created a tyrant.
> >Many dogs in the wrong hands are awful. But they were not born this
> >way...they were allowed to grow up this way.
> >
> >Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
>
> I'm not usually a big "what she said" person, but I agree with everything
that
> Ann has posted and can only add that I see similar situations WAY too
often.
> Do people really think they're doing right by ignoring very obvious
warning
> signs?
>
>
> Janet Boss
> Best Friends Dog Obedience
> "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
>
> "Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
> see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
>
Jerry Howe
"e. saxon" <rho...@mcs.com> wrote in message
news:040220012144075155%rho...@mcs.com...
> In article <3a7df16f$0$70811$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net>, Jeff
> Stapleton <j...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> > Thanks so much for what appears to me to be a
> > reasonable recommendation!
But of course. lia likes to shock and jerk and choke her dog Cubbe. That's
why Cubbe snapped at a kid last week.
> > Having read the prior posts, some of which,
> > knowing very little about the situation and the
> > dog, suggest possibly killing the dog. WHAT????
That's the consensus of opinion amongst our dog lovers and expert trainers.
> Wendy,
> i think you may have mis-interpreted this.
I think you're going to give us some double talk.
> many of the people who in their replies to you listed
> the option of euthanising the dog
Because they don't have a history of success with these kinds of dogs
because they won't tolerate being jeked and choked on pronged choke collars,
and that's all our experts know HOWE to do "correctly".
> did so in order to illustrate
That they're dog abusing cowards. They HURT dogs to train them because they
don't know any better. lyingdogDUMMY tells Paul and Marty that he'd NEED to
HURT their dogs MOORE than they'd LIKE to break a simple problem like POO
eating. And our Gang Of Thugs ALL AGREE.
Paul and Marty didn't LIKE that idea. They used my instructions in the Wits'
End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com and solved that little problem in just a few
minutes over a couple of days WITHOUT HURTING NOBODY.
> the seriousness of your families' situation (i include
> your dog in this).
Yeah. That's why I'm here.
> most of these people work in rescue and/or have
> rescued pets,
And are proven liars and dog abusers.
> and i can tell you
You can't even tell that your pals here are incompetent trainers and dog
abusers. That's a fact, and I've proven it. I'll copy some quotes below just
to smarten you up in case you have't been around here long.
> that i (and they) hear stories just like yours attached
> to every third dog that gets dumped at the shelter i
> volunteer at.
No doubt. Look at the kind of people we've got handling these dogs. janet
boss, lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn, cindymooreon, john richardson. These people
HURT dogs to train them and KILL dogs that scare them because they only KNOW
HOWE to hurt and intimidate dogs. THEY are the problem, not the dogs.
> this number pales next to the hords of animals turned
> into our nation's pounds
Because of the methods your pals teach. Look up cindymooreon's faq's page at
k9web where she teaches people to shove fingers down puppy's throats to
choke them out of mouthing, chin cuff (which lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn and
professora gingold both swear does not mean HIT the dog), scruff shake, knee
in the chest, throw them down by their ears and climb all over them like a
raped ape, twist and pinch their ears and toes and shove dog's heads under
water she'd filled into a hole they've dug. Beating dogs with sticks is
MOTIVATION. cindymooreon has been banned from two obedience clubs for being
a SADIST.
> that get euthanised after their 7 days are up or they
> flunk a cursory temprament test.
That cursory temperment test is usually a punk like richardson or lyinglynn
pulling the dog's tail to see if they'll snap. They're dog abusing cowards.
> these dogs aren't incorrigible.
NO. THEY'RE DEAD.
> for the most part they are unfortunate
> to have owners who didn't want to be rude to their
> dog
Is that so? For the most part, they are dogs like lia's, and Robert Crim's,
who've been mishandled according to our EXPERTS ADVICE, and provoked to
attack. MOST of these behavior problems are a direct result of the
incompetent advice your the people who are now willing to kill the dog
because they don't have any OPTIONS.
> and eventually things got way out of hand.
HOWEver, that doesn't sound like the case with this dog. Sounds like they've
been an excellent family, and the dog has been well handled. Except for this
one small problem which should have been addressed the first time the dog
growled. I could have straightened them out in minutes.
Still can. But our dog abusing lying cowards who only know HOWE to jerk and
choke dogs on pronged choke collars are telling everyone not to listen to me
because I'm not smart enough to hurt and kill dogs in training.
> none of us want this future for your dog.
Yeah. And none of you cares enough to learn HOWE to handle and train dogs.
> desparately.
Don't seem that way at all to me. All I ever hear is people telling us to
hurt our dogs and kill the ones we can't hurt enough to intimiidate them.
> if i've read this thread correctly, (barring j. howe)
Why single me out?
> the majority consenses is that your pup should not be
> permitted to establish and defend territory from your
> members of your family.
That's a micro aspect of the problem, a symptom. Worrying about that will
distract you from the macro, the real problem.
> Melanie has given you some wonderful reading
> advice,
Melanie is sure one to speak. She's got a problem dog who although is doing
well according to her, would be to me, a nearly dismal failure. I'd not be
satisfied if she were my student.
> and you've been refered to NILIF.
The nilif program is problematical initself. The bottom line is the dog in
the nilif story was KILLED. The nilif program KILLED the dog, and you bums
are touting THAT as successful???
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! If this weren't so SERIOUS, I'd be laughing my @$$
off.
> you've decided to accomodate your dog, and i hope
> that works for you.
You mean instead of KILLING him?
> personally i think it's a mistake.
NOT KILLING THE DOG?
> i grew up in a household with an accomodated dog,
I wish you'd speak plain talk on account of I'm just a $#!T kicker and I get
dizzy with big words and greek and latin and algerbra. Spellin don't count
in dog training and my gramma sens her best, she's quite spry today.
> and eventually we rarely had company --the dog &
> children were too unpredictable.
Well, that's hardly good training, is it? And you're going to use that as a
base for understanding non confrontational dog training? No, you're using a
bad example. Use a good example. Look at Paul B. Look at Nick from NZ. Look
at Chris Williams. Those are the examples of non force, non confrontational
training that gives the best of both worlds. Strict discipline because it's
expected, and no confrontation because it's counterproductive.
> on the other hand, the dog lived to a ripe old age.
Sheer luck?
> i was bitten several times, but my parents felt it was
> my fault.
So now you want to get even? You'd prefer they'd have killed the dog? WERE
you provoking the dog? WERE you of age to UNDERSTAND you were provoking the
dog? MAYBE YOU WEREN'T. I dunno. But whatever was going on, is just as
unacceptable as any of the other suggestions we've seen thus far.
> if Helle's sugestions don't work,
Helle had a couple of suggestions. i've got a whole bunch more.
> i hope you'll at least re-examine Jane, Dogstar, Ann &
> Melanie's posts before giving up or dumping your
> dog.
Naturally. There's always time to hurt the dog if appropriate training
methods fail.
> eve
> > I know every newsgroup has its share of flame
> > wars, but when someone who is looking for
> > reasonable advice shows up, I wish the flame
> > throwers could be set aside in favor of good
> > judgement
YUP. That's why I'm here. You won't be getting any decent advice from our
Gang Of Thugs.
> > and kindness for the poster.
You think it's kind to tell people that they'll NEED to HURT their dogs
MOORE than they'd LIKE, when I teach people to solve problems like that in a
few minutes over a couple of days WITHOUT HURTING NOBODY???
TALK. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? DON'T SAY YOU DON'T KNOW THE THREAD, PICK ANY
THREAD.
> > You have shown both and I appreciate it!
Helle's new around here. They'll be giving her the bums rush just as they
have every other competent trainer who's ever come in here. They don't like
trainers like Helle. That's the way it always worked until I came along.
That's why I came in here. I couldn't believe what I saw going on. That's
why I stayed... You'll see.
> > We will work with the kids to recognize his "den"
> > and work on the playful
> > excercises you suggested. Many thanks,
And I've got a few suggestions when I get around to answering your op. j;~}
Jerry Howe
You shock your dogs.
"Jane Webb" <ja...@webbweave.com> wrote in message
news:040220011803454253%ja...@webbweave.com...
isylph
I recommend that you encourage your kids to particiate in some simple
obedience training with your dog (sit, stay, drop). Make sure the
sessions are supervised. This interaction will help the dog understand
that respect should be directed toward the kids.
Alison
Helle Haugenes
<talies...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>My understanding is that possibly until recently neutering of dogs was not
>permitted in the Scandanavian countries unless the neutering was performed
>for a medically necessary reason. I'd appreciate it if you posted a brief
>description of the current Scandanavian laws regarding dog neutering.
Ok, the following is about Norway. I'm not sure what laws apply to the
other scandinavian countries, but they are probably similiar to the
norwegian.
Law on animal welfare (Lov om dyrevern), chapter 3, paragraph 13
"...It's illegal to castrate dog and koll poultry. A veterinarian may
still castrate when special usability needs make it necessary..."
"Usuability needs" is open for interpretation, professional dogs such
as leaddogs for blind people may have a usability need, while an
agility or obedience champion does not. Police dogs are not neutered.
There is another law (Law on welfare, chapter 1, paragraph 6 on help)
which states the animal's right to treatment when in need. I am not
sure, but I suppose this law applies in cases where dogs have medical
problems that can be solved by castration.
So, you see the law against castration still applies for dogs, but a
growing number (however still very few) neuter/spay their dogs for no
apparent reason or to solve non-sexual problem behaviors. I suppose
the law on "help" is used to justify it.
Not all veterinarians will spay or neuter unless they have a good
cause. Few owners will have they're dogs neutered/spayed. Also,
removal of vocal cords is also against the law and no veterinarian
will perform that kind of surgery in Norway.
I hope any Norwegians who read this and find errors correct me.
Helle :-)
Natalie
was not leaving it alone. This dog is hiding under a coffee table to get
away from the child. Any animal when cornered is not going to be happy about
it. When children are involved they need to understand that there are times
when the dog has had enough. The dog should have someplace he can escape to
and the children should understand that when the goes there that he had
enough. A small confined area is not the best place for a child to be trying
to take something from the dog anyway. Some training for both the child and
the dog is in order here. Euthanizing should not be explored here, this
seems like a pretty simple issue to deal with.
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95l0cg$t72$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Paul B
affection.
Paul
--
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20010204194608...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
Paul B
left since it's already "flighted" as far as it can. How many people have
had their dog growl at them when they try to reach for it under a bed etc,
this is particularly prevalent if a dog is in pain, confused, frightened or
feeling unwell.
Even my dog Sam, who is very docile (but big) growled at me once (the only
time ever) when he had a sore ear infection, I inadvertently cornered him
while trying to look at the ear, he really didn't want me touching it but
was trapped with no where to go, he was worried I may hurt his ear more and
did the only thing he could think of to protect himself. I realised the
situation and without issue went to a large room and called him through, he
eventually let me look without a problem.
Understanding why the dog is behaving in a certain way and reacting
appropriately to diffuse the situation seems to be the best solution. A
growling dog is not necessarily been aggressive or showing dominance, it may
simply be protecting it's own interests in the only way it sees left, a bite
could be an escalation of that when the warning fails.
Some folk will say that a dog should never bite anyone ever, I agree, but
how do you teach a dog not to bite? I would think the only way is to set it
up so it tries to bite then teach it that's inappropriate and not the
desired response for that situation, but how many people do that? The only
way I can see that's practical is for the dog to respect you (the whole
family) and have such affection that it has no desire to bite and never be
put in such a situation it feels hopelessly trapped.
Paul.
--
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
"Natalie" <dako...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:IHuf6.1236$iM6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
CJJUNG
to own a space, to hoard items and to basically rule the roost and the owners
deferred to him.
Well, one day, the golden snatched a KFC box (with three pieces of chicken
inside) off the counter. Cooked chicken is dangerous to dogs because the bones
are brittle and splintery so the owners tried to get the box and chicken away
from their Golden. The golden took offense at this and really nailed both
owners several times - puncture wounds and ragged tears needing stitches. And
after this the dog was put down.
I dogsat this Golden before his demise and he was a great dog at my house
because I'm a meanie and didn't let him get away with any of the hoarding,
pushy, bossy, foolishness. Every day while he was at my place, we practiced
getting things and giving them up and other lessons of good manners.
My dogs (collies) are a pleasure to be around, they never need to hide from us
or need to hoard stuff away from us. That's because we are the benevolent
dictators and all wonderful good things come from us. My dogs are happy and
very confident with the way things are run in my house - they know that the
leadership is secure, fair and consistent.
Chris and her nice smoothies
Zeffie and Pablo
James L. Ryan
(in message <20010205073842...@ng-xc1.aol.com>):
> Well, one day, the golden snatched a KFC box (with three pieces of chicken
> inside) off the counter. Cooked chicken is dangerous to dogs because the
> bones are brittle and splintery so the owners tried to get the box and
> chicken away from their Golden. The golden took offense at this and really
> nailed both owners several times - puncture wounds and ragged tears needing
> stitches. And after this the dog was put down.
Incidents like the above seem to result when the human fails to heed the
warning growl of the dog. Unfortunately the growl results because the dog has
not been trained to understand that it should allow the human to freely take
things from it. There are undoubtedly a great many dogs that would be alive
and happy today had their owners understood the need for appropriate training
when the dog was still a pup.
Jerry Howe
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:95l0cg$t72$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> In <3a7df1f5$0$70805$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net> "Jeff Stapleton"
<j...@megsinet.net> writes:
>
> >Jerry,
> > I appreciate your opinions and agree that, at least
> > in this case, the dog should not be destroyed.
> > I think there are some pretty extreme (putting it
> > mildly) viewpoints due to the rather obvious flame
> > war here and I must sort out the wheat from
> > the chaffe and determine which is good advice.
> You are taking the advice of a loon
Why don't you criticize my advice? You CAN'T.
I don't say "don't listen to lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn" or "don't listen to
lyingfrosty dahl," or "don't listen to cindymooreon" because "THEY'RE
SCREWBALLS."
That'd be RIDICULOUS, wouldn't it?
I say "don't listen to our Gang Of Thugs because they're
lyingdogabusingCOWARDS." AND THAT'S PROVEN.
SEE? USE A GENUINE ARGUMENT!
> who, to the best of the knowlege of anyone on
> usenet, has never actually trained a dog.
RIGHT. Jerry don't NEED to do anything other than PROVE you and your pals
are LYING, DOG ABUSING COWARDS.
SEE? THAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE.
> That is most certainly your choice,
I'd say that's a wise choic, on account of Jerry has more experience and
DON'T HURT DOGS to train them.
Your lying, dog abusing Thug pals are PROVEN LIARS and DOG ABUSERS.
ASK LYINGDOGDUMMY WHAT HE'D NEED TO DO TO PAUL OR MARTY'S DOGS TO STOP THEM
FROM EATING POO.. BWWWWAHAHAAAAA!!!
And all you bums AGREE.
> but please, go back and read what some other folks
> have written.
Yes, your dog abusing Thug pals who KILL dogs because they're dog abusing
COWARDS.
> I *own* Goldens, I train them,
You shock your dogs, don't you?
> and I have worked with them for years.
You've been slinging the B.S. here for years. You're a blow hard.
Give some criticism of my advice, besides that Jerry's crazy because he
keeps EXPOSING our dog abusing lying COWARDS, and keeps PROVING it with your
own written words...
You're a bit weak in your argument, ann. In fact, NONE of your pals can
criticize my advice, that's why the killfile Jerry campaine... SEE?
GET SOME CRITICISM, and then come back here and bash Jerry. BWWWAHAHAAA!!!
> And I'm telling you to either do something about the
> way that this dog interacts with your family, or
> euthanize the dog.
RIGHT. Don't listen to Jerry cause HE don't know enough to HURT dogs to
train them. LISTEN TO YOUR PALS, who HURT and KILL dogs, BECAUSE THEY KNOW
HOWE TO HURT AND KILL DOGS.
> You don't have to listen, you can pretend that Jerry
> and Halle are the big experts
Psst! Your pals are PROVEN LIARS, DOG ABUSERS, and COWARDS.
> on intact male Golden Retrievers who have become
> snotty to humans:
Only time I ever saw a snotty dog was one with distemper. Never had to HANG
a dog for being SNOTTY.
I have shoved my foot deep into the postierior's of a few dog abusing lying
Thugs, HOWEver. I'm NOT fond of dog abusers... and I don't have any problem
for being forceful when dog abusers are getting SNOTTY.
THAT'S WHY I'M HERE.
> that is obviously your call and choice.
YOUR PALS KILL DOGS BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.
> But if this dog bites again,
YOUR PALS HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM, AND KILL DOGS THEY CAN'T HURT ENOUGH TO
FORCE THEM TO RESPECT YOUR G-D AUTHORITY...
> your kid might not get off so lucky.
I don't depend on LUCK.
> One regular poster to this group, who has
> been quiet as of late (her PC is off line) would be able
> to tell teh story of how a Golden ripped into her
> brother when he was a kid and left him with
> permanant scars and damage.
Yes, very fearful people. If your pal hasn't been posting here lately,
that's problably because I've embarassed them off the forum, as we've been
seeing with our dog abusing lying thugs. They get beat up here and go lay
low somewhere else... BYE!
> As I said before, a Golden is a big, powerful dog,
Not to people who are used to Danes or Mastiffs. The Golden is a nice LITTLE
dog.
> and one who bites kids can inflict terrible wounds.
MOORE FEAR? You like to scare people so they'll listen to your fearful pals
who KILL dogs.
> I urge you to work with an experienced dog
> behaviorist,
Psst! You won't find more experienced and faster behavior modivication
advice than I have. This has been my career for thirty eight years. I
specialize in this kind of behavior problem. I don't hurt dogs. I've never
been proven to lie. I've discredited all your pals and PROVEN them to be
liars and dog abusers...
YOUR PALS ARE THE PROBLEM. I CAME HERE TO PUT THEM TO SLEEP SO THEY WON'T
HURT NO MOORE DOGS...
> to talk to this dog's breeder,
They may be interested in hearin, but they can't offer any help, they need a
behaviorist...
> and to think about if this dog can safely stay in your
> house.
YOU WANT THEM TO KILL THEIR DOG.
> Jerry and Helle told you what you wanted to hear:
No. We're telling it like it is. And kieron will agree. As wlll Marilyn,
Canis55, even your good buddy Robert Crim would agree with us. You REMEMBER
Robert, don't you? He won't post here no MOORE because he listens to Jerry.
He used to HATE Jerry just like all the rest of our Thugs.
SEE? What happend to your BEST PAL?
He SMARTENED UP after his dog got DEAD.
> that you don't have to do diddly squat and that all will
> be just fine.
That's not what we said. But the problem is very simple.
> Other people, including myself are sounding the alarm > here.
Because you're INSANE.
> If you feel that is flaming, well God help you and your
> poor kids.
Yes, I like the guilt and fear. It becomes you and your pals. I rather ENJOY
your arguments in favor of HURTING DOGS. "Don't listen to Jerry because he's
EMBARASSING to us DOG ABUSERS."
> I hope that dog doesn't do more dammage next
> time.
YOUR PALS WOULD HANG THIS DOG.
It's IN the BOOK. lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lyinn and cindymooreon are BOTH
involved with shelters. They would be OBLIGATED to HANG this dog to
rehabilitate it. OTHERWISE, koehler says they'd be CRUEL NOT TO.
SEE? That's their METHOD. IT'S IN THE BOOK.
> And yes, there will be a next time if you don't do
> some real work with this dog.
The work I'll recommend will only take a few minutes.
> Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
And NOBODY will GET HURT.
Except your dog abusing lying Thug pals... of course. j;~}
Jerry Howe
Do the allow ear and tail cropping?
"Helle Haugenes" <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:jrqs7tsrlrobi272o...@4ax.com...
Ann Stewart
"James L. Ryan" wrote:
> things from it. There are undoubtedly a great many dogs that would be alive
> and happy today had their owners understood the need for appropriate training
> when the dog was still a pup.
>
> --
> James L. Ryan, TaliesinSoft
Unfortunately many dog owners don't see it that way.
I had a friend of a friend sort of deal who thought I was cruel to train
my bouvier. I did obedience with him, so he did the obedience stuff,
but he also wasn't allowed to be at the table or take things that
weren't his etc. I lived in my friends basement apartment so I saw
these people quite a lot and they had no qualms about ragging on me for
not letting Tosca be a dog. They got a sheherd/collie pup. The dog did
what it wanted. If he wanted food off of the table he would take it,
even if they were eating. If he took something that didn't belong to
him , that was ok. He was so cute. Eventually he got very snappy with
the family if they tried to take things back or tell him no. After
about two years, he seriously bit one of the kids. I don't know what
they did with him but he was no longer their pet. By this time I had
moved and only saw the people occassionally. They now have a GSP and I
notice that she has been to obedience class and they actually make her
listen when they are out with her.
If they had trained the first puppy from the beginning, they would
likely still have him.
Ann
D. Childe
you some good advice. I think you should follow it.
If you choose to hire a professional, please be careful in the
choosing. If they talk about showing the dog who is boss, teaching the
dog his place in some non-existent hierarchy, if they attack or
threaten the dog, they will make your dog aggressive. They will then
both see and direct you to see how this confirms their initial fears
and concerns regarding your dog's behavior. That's how that works.
In article <3a7d78e0$0$7163$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net>,
"Jeff Stapleton" <j...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years
old. My
> son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to
go to
> when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is
actually
> under our frontroom table). Because he is a golden retriever he
likes to
> retrieve shoes and towels and put them under his den. We have a 14
year old
> and a 9 year old who along with our 5 year old can not pet or try and
take
> their shoe or towel away from our dog without the dog growling and
sneering
> at them when he is under the table.
>
> Just this morning, our 5 year old went to take a towel away from our
dog and
> he growled and then bit him on the face. This was the first time he
had
> every done that and it was a minor bite. Our dog has never bit
anyone else
> before. My husband and I seem to be the only people who can take
away an
> object under the table without him growling. He generally doesn't
chew up
> the object he just likes to retrieve. He is a very gentle, patient
and
> loving dog in every other aspect. When he is not under his den he
doesn't
> growl at all at anybody and everybody including our children loves
this dog
> very much. Even now only a matter of about an hour later, he is
licking
> and playing with our 5 year old son with us observing of course.
It's as if
> our dog has no recollection of the incident at all. He is just a very
> playful dog and loving dog to us and everyone else.
>
> What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
> children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
>
> Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He
seems to
> lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever
does it
> to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> --
> Wendy Stapleton
>
>
--
You are deceived, for I will tell you. Yet if you were not dunces you
would never
ask me such a question, for is he not *corpus naturale*, and is that
not *mobile*?
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
James L. Ryan
<3A7EB753...@home.com>):
> "James L. Ryan" wrote:
>
>> There are undoubtedly a great many dogs that would be alive and happy
>> today had their owners understood the need for appropriate training when
>> the dog was still a pup.
> Unfortunately many dog owners don't see it that way. I had a friend of a
> friend sort of deal who thought I was cruel to train my bouvier.
[snip]
> Eventually he
[the friend's dog]
> got very snappy with the family if they tried to take things back or tell
> him no. After about two years, he seriously bit one of the kids. I don't
> know what they did with him but he was no longer their pet. By this time
> I had moved and only saw the people occassionally. They now have a GSP
> and I notice that she has been to obedience class and they actually make
> her listen when they are out with her. If they had trained the first puppy
> from the beginning, they would likely still have him.
It is sad that so often the "first dog" becomes the victim of ignorance about
the need for appropriate training. Perhaps one thing conscientious breeders
could do is to include a mandate for approved obedience training in the sales
contract.
Jerry Howe
news:01HW.B6A40C670...@news.earthlink.net...
> James L. Ryan, TaliesinSoft
INDEED. That's why I find it particularly disturbing when folks like
cindymooreon and our lying, dog abusing Thugs tell people to sove their
fingers down puppys throats to choke them out of mouthing, and chin cuff
(which "DEFINITELY does not mean SLAP the dog" according to professora
gingold and lying"I LOVE KOEHLER"lynn.) and scruff shake, alpha roll, knee
dogs in the chest, jerk and choke them on pronged choke collars, shock,
twist and pinch their ears and toes (or is it pinch and twist?), shove dog's
heads under water you've filled into a hole they've dug, and BEAT DOGS WITH
STICKS to motivate them, and HANG dogs who object to their training.
And then of course, they LIE about it:
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you are
full of bizarro manure."
Amy lyingfrosty Dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For
the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who
chooses not to read the article, there is NO mention in
it of twisting ears.
I would never slap a dog.
I would never advise anyone to slap a dog.
I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever,
where slapping a dog is anything but destructive."
RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff
doesn't mean slap, it means hit.
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch."
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.
Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,
Now you are ready to progress to what most people
think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts
to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear.
if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the
shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996":
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem
makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often
enough to let him know you were against his sound
effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet them,
so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of
water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start
with something more emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct:
the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and
windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary
people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a
good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and
plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his
mind rather than his mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless
you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise
the control he thus acquires. Make sure these
opportunities don't always come at the same time
of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow
the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the
most from his lesson. As was mentioned before,
eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the
dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows
more discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or
lonesomeness because you're gone constitutes a
different problem. If it is impractical for someone
to stay with him constantly (there are owners who
cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have
to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog.
This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective
effort doesn't turn into a footrace around the house
until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of
the line in the correction will also serve to establish it
as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around
when you're not present.
Next, equip yourself with a man's leather belt or a
strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good
tanning. Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard.
Remember, you're dealing with a dog who knows he
should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to
see that he does.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to
the door so you can barge in while he's still barking,
which is generally impossible, respond to his first
sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep
on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt
that you've conveniently placed, and descend on him.
He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or,
if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a
hitch on something.
While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter
end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on
the number of repeat performances that will be
necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he
is, put him on a long down to think things over while
you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes,
release him from the stay and leave the area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth
that a great percentage of the barkers who are given
away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box
with the sweet smell. Personally, I've always felt that
it's even better to spank children, even if they "cry
out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch
before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he
does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent
correction to his first sound and repeat the
spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another
day off so that you'll have time to follow through
sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able
to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job
easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the
time, he'll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the
correction" will be tied in close enough association so
that you can move in on him without the preliminary
bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just a case of
laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be
quiet when you're not around, so give the above
method an honest try before you presume your dog
requires a more severe correction.
"Housebreaking problems:
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Ask yourself "WHY DOESN'T JERRY HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?"
And then just answer "BECAUSE JERRY KNOWS HOWE
TO TRAIN DOGS WITHOUT HURTING THEM."
And THEN SAY OUT LOUD: "IGNORE JERRY, HE'S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS."
You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY
handle and train your dog using non force, non
confronatational, scientific and psychological
methods, in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com
The Wits' End Dog Training Method manual is provided
compliments of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an
alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too).
Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}
Helle Haugenes
> Hello Helle,
> Do the allow ear and tail cropping?
No. It's been illegal for like 15-20 years in Norway, I think. I also
don't think one can show a dog with cropped ears or docked tail (This to avoid
people "accidently" cutting the tail off in the door.)
I'm pretty sure that Sweden and Denmark have the same laws against
cropping/docking/removing bodyparts.
Is this (cropping ears and tail) an issue in the US? It's still allowed
right?
Helle
Jerry Howe
"Ann Stewart" <aste...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A7EB753...@home.com...
> Unfortunately many dog owners don't see it that way.
What's unfortunate is you are not in a position to discuss dog behavior, as
YOU are an incompetent handler. SEE?
> I had a friend of a friend sort of deal who thought I
> was cruel to train my bouvier.
You are NOT a competent trainer, and whatever you were doing to your Bouvier
PROBALBY WAS cruel.
> I did obedience with him, so he did the obedience
> stuff, but he also wasn't allowed to be at the table or
> take things that weren't his etc.
Right.
> I lived in my friends basement apartment so I saw
> If they had trained the first puppy from the beginning,
> they would likely still have him.
> Ann
So, you take a story about another incompetent handler, and use that to
rationialize your point... using FEAR, based on ANOTHER incompetent like
YOURSELF.
And of course "don't listen to Jerry, he's MEAN to dog abusing lying
cowards."
James L. Ryan
<Pine.GSO.4.31.01020...@hades.idi.ntnu.no>):
> Is this (cropping ears and tail) an issue in the US? It's still allowed
> right?
At this time both cropping and docking are commonly practiced in the U.S.,
and I'm not sure what laws, if any, have been passed in any of the states
which would prohibit either practice. There are an increasing number of
organizations, such as the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)
that are discouraging the practice.
See
http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/990730earcropping.html
Jane Webb
Ryan <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> result when the human fails to heed the
> warning growl of the dog.
I don't understand this. Dogs aren't ALLOWED to growl at ppl, no more
than children are allowed to cuss at grownups.
Learned, as you said, in infancy.
James L. Ryan
Incidents like the above seem to result when the human fails to heed the
warning growl of the dog.
Jane Webb replied:
I don't understand this. Dogs aren't ALLOWED to growl at ppl, no more than
children are allowed to cuss at grownups. Learned, as you said, in infancy.
I'm not sure what's "not understood" here. The Golden Retriever that is the
topic of this thread was not properly trained and resorted to growling to
protect possession of a towel. The child was bitten when trying to to take
the towel against the dog's wishes.
Elaine Gallant
"Natalie" <dako...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:IHuf6.1236$iM6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> was not leaving it alone.
There is not situation where it's ok for the dog to eat the children. It
doesn't matter HOW short tempered or bored the dog is with the child. It's
just plain not ok to injure the children.
>This dog is hiding under a coffee table to get
> away from the child.
The dog claimed the area under a DINING table as it's private property.
There may be validity to giving the dog private kennel space. That space is
NOT in the dining room.
>
Mary Healey
> It sounds to me liked this dog has given plenty of warning to a child who
> was not leaving it alone. This dog is hiding under a coffee table to get
> away from the child. Any animal when cornered is not going to be happy about
> it.
This dog has been allowed to think it has some say in the matter. It
does not.
As much as possible, I leave my dogs be when they're in their crates.
If they want to hang out there and not be bothered, that's usually
fine. But if I want to go in there with 'em, I will. If I want the
toy, the treat, the shoe, the beef roast, whatever it is they've denned
up with, I will go in and get it. And Heaven help the dog who tries
growling at me about it.
When the 2-year old human who occasionally visits decided to co-opt the
livingroom crate, with Sam still in it, the dog shoved over and made
room for him. This is a dog that sees children, on average, about ten
minutes a year. Sam is the most highly strung and tightly wound dog I
own, and he's more wired than pretty much any decent Golden would ever
be. He was cornered. He was not happy about it. He didn't growl, and
he didn't bite. If he can maintain that much self-control, any
neurologically normal dog can do the same.
> When children are involved they need to understand that there are times
> when the dog has had enough.
The dog has to understand that he doesn't make the rules, he doesn't
enforce the rules, he doesn't get to vote on the rules. Dot it, file
it, stick it in a box marked "Done".
>...Euthanizing should not be explored here, this
> seems like a pretty simple issue to deal with.
A dog who bites family is definitely not a 'simple' issue. Nor is it a
matter of training the children to cater to the dog's opinions of
appropriate behavior.
I have a cat who the vet students have decided is a Golden Retriever in
a cat suit. But he sure ain't this dog - the cat has tolerated two
major surgeries, a week in ICU (getting no rest because all the students
thought he was so sweet they just had to say 'hi!' every time they
passed his cage), tubes and wires and medications and all kinds of
crap. After six months of poking, prodding, tubing, slicing, and
dicing, he only started to growl after two days of no rest. Now that
he's home, he's his sweet old self.
THAT is the deportment I expect of a Golden Retriever. It is the
deportment I expect of my Lab, despite his obvious deviations from
breed-normal. It is not the deportment I expect of my Cattle Dogs, who
are such momma's boys they can't spend a week away from me without going
into a decline.
If any of 'em bit a family member, euthanasia would be among the
possible responses.
--
Mary H. & the Ames National Zoo: Raise a Fund ("Regis");
ANZ Sam-I-Am, CGC; ANZ Noah Doll, CGC; ANZ Babylon Ranger; ANZ MarmaDUKE
felines, finches and fish
Elaine Gallant
The owners already have big problems if the dog thinks it can growl at them.
"Jane Webb" <ja...@webbweave.com> wrote in message
news:050220010959405145%ja...@webbweave.com...
Elaine Gallant
The dog's wishes don't count.
"James L. Ryan" <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:01HW.B6A448800...@news.earthlink.net...
Fran Whelan
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> "Natalie" <dako...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:IHuf6.1236$iM6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > It sounds to me liked this dog has given plenty of warning to a child who
> > was not leaving it alone.
>
> There is not situation where it's ok for the dog to eat the children. It
> doesn't matter HOW short tempered or bored the dog is with the child. It's
> just plain not ok to injure the children.
But is there a time when it's OK for a dog to say 'look - please leave me alone'?
Fran
James L. Ryan
(in message <LjBf6.14319$mA1.8...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>):
> The owners already have big problems if the dog thinks it can growl at them.
I think that is strongly agreed to. The real issue here is what actions the
owners of the biting Golden Retriever can take to prevent further
occurrences, and what other dog owners can do to prevent such unwanted
behavior.
DogStar716
>> away from the child. Any animal when cornered is not going to be happy
>about
>> it.
None of my dogs have ever growled or bitten any of my children because the
child was in it's "space". Of course, my children are taught how to behave
around dogs, but there is always an occasion when the child does something the
dog might find threatning. Does that mean the dog should have the right to
bite the child? Not in my house.
If my dog is lying on his bed, and the baby crawls over and sits on him or by
him, my dog will simply remove himself from the situation if he doesn't like
it. There is never a growl or showing of teeth. My dogs are taught their
place in the home as soon as they arrive, and when the babies would come along,
they were conditioned and learned that even the babies were higher on the totem
pole then they were. I never let my children run roughshod over the dogs
though, because that isn't fair to the dog.
It's all about training, and letting the dog know that he is at the bottom of
the pack from day one. That does not mean you have to dominate the dog every
second of it's life, but teaching the dog that it has to work for what it gets
is a fun and harmless way to show your dog his place in the home.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
"AKC papers do not mean you are getting
a quality dog. They are merely a birth certificate. Even puppy
mill pet shop pups have AKC papers" - Bob Maida
DogStar716
>alone'?
Yes, but that is where the parents should have stepped in in the first place.
Now its kinda late.
Ann Stewart
months and 3 years old. My bouvs are 12 years old and 15 months.
The younger of the two dogs has a crate. He is in it when we aren't
home and the door is left open during the day so that he can go in there
if he pleases.
We have tried to teach the boys to leave the dogs alone when they are
eating, not to bother them when they are sleeping and if Logan goes into
his crate that that is his special place. That being said, the kids are
just little guys. Normally, I try to feed the dogs when the kids aren't
around but that's not always possible.
My kids can stick their hand in either dog's dish and the dogs don't
even look sideways at them. I don't encourage this, but it has
happened. The kids can take things away from the dogs with no problem,
the kids have fallen on sleeping dogs before, still no problem and if
Logan goes to his crate, I can usually find Aidan sleeping in there
right next to him.
The owners of the golden have set this situation up by letting the dog
rule the roost. If he growled at the kids it was ok. If he hoarded
shoes or towels it was ok, they let him have his own place which is all
fine and good. Teach the kids to respect the dog, but also teach the
dog that growling and biting are NOT acceptable.
I hope that I am doing the right things with regards to kids and dogs.
My kids aren't allowed to torment the dogs, they aren't really allowed
to stick their hands in the food dishes and I do expect them to leave
the dogs alone when they are sleeping or eating but under no
circumstance is the dog allowed to snap or bite the kid. So far there
has never been a problem.
I hope the owners start training this dog right now. Not put it off and
training the kids to let the dog rule. The next bite could be much more
serious, or it may not even be their kid.
Ann
Amy Dahl
Jeff Stapleton wrote:
>
> What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
> children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
>
Common sense dictates that some change should be made. The
bite could have been worse, and there is no certainty, currently,
that another, worse bite will not occur.
You have been receiving conflicting advice. It can be very
difficult to judge over the Internet who does, and who does
not, know what they are talking about. You might find it much
easier to evaluate a local person in a face-to-face meeting.
A local trainer or behaviorist can also provide credentials
which can be checked. I strongly encourage you to consult
one.
There are very good consultants available. If you let us know
the region in which you live, I bet someone on this newsgroup
can recommend someone near you. Then you can satisfy yourself
that he/she is qualified and has your best interests at heart,
which you cannot do with contributors on r.p.d.b., before
deciding whether to take his/her advice.
Please don't entrust the well-being of your children and your pet
to a bunch of strangers on the Internet.
Amy
Joshua Rosenblatt
be (especially from Mr. Howe the ninnyboy).
form my non-expert point of view, I'd say you have a problem on your hands..
especially with the kids.
You ahve a dog which thinks it's the boss, a situation you have created by
lack of appropriate trainging and (no doubt) a lack of consistency.
My best advice is to neuter the dog (this dog should NOT be bred) and enroll
in a professional dog traiinig coruse. Make sure ALL familymemebrs
participate (ESPECIALLY the kids) so that in time (and with consistency) the
dog will learn it is NOT the boss.
I would also recomend crate training the dog so that the crate becomes his
safe haven and not the space under the table.
If you do not put the work in to rehabilitate this dog, then unfortunately
euthanasia si the only viable option (unless you wish to gamble on a daily
basis). No shelter nor rscue will adopt this dog out since it has bittne a
child without having the work put in to correct the behavior problemns. THAT
is YOUR responsibility since it is a result of YOUR ingnorance. I am not
trying to flame you here.. it's simply the reality of the situation.. like it
or not.
I know you love the dog, and I am sure in many other ways he is a loving dog.
The licking of faces is generally a sing of affection. But you need to train
youselves first and then train the dog to know what behavior is acceptable and
where his place is in teh family. Since you love this dog, then you owe it to
him (and your family) to do this.
... and please please please neuter him.
Joshua
Jeff Stapleton wrote:
>
> We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old. My
> son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
> when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
> under our frontroom table). Because he is a golden retriever he likes to
> retrieve shoes and towels and put them under his den. We have a 14 year old
> and a 9 year old who along with our 5 year old can not pet or try and take
> their shoe or towel away from our dog without the dog growling and sneering
> at them when he is under the table.
>
> Just this morning, our 5 year old went to take a towel away from our dog and
> he growled and then bit him on the face. This was the first time he had
> every done that and it was a minor bite. Our dog has never bit anyone else
> before. My husband and I seem to be the only people who can take away an
> object under the table without him growling. He generally doesn't chew up
> the object he just likes to retrieve. He is a very gentle, patient and
> loving dog in every other aspect. When he is not under his den he doesn't
> growl at all at anybody and everybody including our children loves this dog
> very much. Even now only a matter of about an hour later, he is licking
> and playing with our 5 year old son with us observing of course. It's as if
> our dog has no recollection of the incident at all. He is just a very
> playful dog and loving dog to us and everyone else.
>
> What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train our
> children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please advise.
>
> Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems to
> lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does it
> to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> --
> Wendy Stapleton
--
to see my pets' pics click:
http://community.webshots.com/user/pokrsmokr
Elaine Gallant
"Fran Whelan" <fran....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3A7EE182...@ntlworld.com...
>
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> > "Natalie" <dako...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:IHuf6.1236$iM6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > It sounds to me liked this dog has given plenty of warning to a child
who
> > > was not leaving it alone.
> >
> > There is not situation where it's ok for the dog to eat the children. It
> > doesn't matter HOW short tempered or bored the dog is with the child.
It's
> > just plain not ok to injure the children.
>
> But is there a time when it's OK for a dog to say 'look - please leave me
alone'?
No. Sorry. Too bad, so sad. A dog like that has no place in a home with
small children.
Elaine Gallant
The dog has already indicated that it is only too happy to take a bite out
of their child's face. The only real question is if these people love their
son more than the dog. They have to be willing to trade their child's safety
for the dog.
Personally, I would place my child's safety above the life of any animal, or
any human for that matter.
"James L. Ryan" <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:01HW.B6A44FDD0...@news.earthlink.net...
Elaine Gallant
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3A7EEEDD...@oakhillkennel.com...
> Common sense dictates that some change should be made. The
> bite could have been worse, and there is no certainty, currently,
> that another, worse bite will not occur.
In fact, there is no reason to think further and more serious bites WOULDN'T
occur. Dominance aggression is progressive. It goes from less to more
violent. If he got away with the first growling, it proceeds to a bite. If
he survives biting the children, he'll bite harder next time.
The blood vessels in the throat are only about 1/2 inch below the surface.
It doesn't take a very deep or aggressive bite to sever an artery in the
neck.
That's how Dianne Whipple died- the big dog nicked a blood vessel in her
neck, and she bled out.
Cindy
Fran Whelan <fran....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>But is there a time when it's OK for a dog to say 'look - please leave
>me alone'?
>
That's the parent's responsibility to see and intervene. Not the
dog's.
--Cindy
--
*********** tit...@io.com ** http://www.k9web.com/tittle.html **************
Jerry Howe
"Joshua Rosenblatt" <Jos...@Rosenblatt.com> wrote in message
news:3A7EF115...@Rosenblatt.com...
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>I agree, any dog that is cornered and feels threatened has only the "fight"
>left since it's already "flighted" as far as it can. How many people have
Sounds like your dogs don't understand house rules, if this sort of thing
happens. I have had puppies run off with bones and dish towels and have
never been bitten by them. If I had an ADULT dog doing this crap, I'd
wonder where my brain had been hidden. While any puppy might growl once
when first in a situation like this, for an adult Golden Retriever to be
doing it is at best suspect, and at worse scary.
Ann, twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
==========================================================================
Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A
is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
Helle Haugenes <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:163r7t8husgur7cqm...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:44:24 -0600, "Jeff Stapleton" <j...@megsinet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
>
> medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering. Nothing
> indicates that your dog would not have these problems if he was
> neutered.
snip
Actually all the statistics show that its an intact male dog with no
training that is the most likely to bite someone.
Your premise that this is not the problem doesn't quite match up with the
facts. Sure neutered males may bite but not as often as intact ones do!
Nancy
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
case it reeks of dominant behavior IMO.
*heavy* face washing of kids
dog *never* does this to adults
adult humans can take away toys etc and no child can
All that adds up IMO to dominance behaviors in the dog including the
washing.
Mother dogs pin pups and wash them to exert control - adult dogs pin more
submissive dogs and wash ears and faces and snarl if the dog being licked
moves - this is very different from the 'licking up' type behavior where a
submissive dog comes in and wiggles exposing the throat and moves head from
side to side and licks the air or a muzzle of the dominant dog from beneath.
Nancy
Paul B <NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3a7e7cf0$1...@clear.net.nz...
> From my experience licking is a submissive behaviour and a sign of
> affection.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
>
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
>
> Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
> "Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> news:20010204194608...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> > >"Jeff Stapleton" j...@megsinet.net wrote:
> > >Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems
> to
> > >lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever
does
> it
> > >to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
> >
> of
> > food you may have eaten.
> >
> > Though there may be some truth to it - in particular, it may be the
reason
> why
> > he licks the children's faces more readily - I believe that it's also
the
> dog's
> > way of "kissing." I know that many "experts" may sneer at that
> explanation,
> > but looking for food doesn't explain why the licking is more frantic
when
> I
> > first come in the house after being away for a while. Or why I get
> gentle,
> > sweet licks back when I'm kissing my dog's head. In other words, my
dogs
> > always tend to lick my face more often at times when one would expect a
> show of
> > affection.
> >
> > Learn How to Can Spam
> > http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml
> > http://www.spamfree.org/
> > WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH - Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/
> > Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)
> >
> >
>
>
Joshua Rosenblatt
>
> Hahaahahahaha. You're an imbicile. j;~}
thanks you.
Coming from you, that is the highest compliment. Seems I have some VERY good company.
TO...@dog-play.com
> It is sad that so often the "first dog" becomes the victim of ignorance about
> the need for appropriate training. Perhaps one thing conscientious breeders
> could do is to include a mandate for approved obedience training in the sales
> contract.
Most responsible breeders do just that. Some even offer rebates for
achieving obedience titles, some even for just a CGC (which is not a
title)
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
To reach a goal you must set a destination.
Ann Stewart
behaviours. He growled they let him do what he wanted. Now the dog has
bitten their child and now they are asking where did we go wrong, but
from what I've read it doesn't sound like they are really willing to try
to remedy the situation by training the dog.
What's going to happen next time?
Hopefully there won't be a next time but unless they are willing to
train the dog there very likely will be a next time. Maybe next time
will be a much more severe bite. Maybe next time it won't even be their
kid.
The really sad thing though is that they will likely go right out, get
another dog and let it do the same things that this one has been allowed
to do.
I think there's still hope for the dog if the owners are willing to put
some effort into it, but if they aren't they might just as well get rid
of the dog now.
Ann
Lappe
in nature ! But you can't ignore his instincts when you're training
-, educating-, living with him. He's not a human, he's a dog, an
animal with most of his behavioral patterns tuned to living in a pack.
Man has only been domesticating dogs for 10,000 to 35,000 years, which
is peanuts on the evolutionary scale. To put things in perspective :
the common ancestor of modern wolves and modern dogs lived between 10
and 15 million years ago. This means that man has only had a small
influence on the behavior of dogs.
This comes from the basic course all instructors at dog schools in
Belgium have to follow : (I'll do my best to translate it correctly)
------------------------------
Origin of the different behavioral patterns of the dog, according to
Seiferle :
Acquired behavior represents only 15% from all behavioral patterns.
The rest is inherited from the ancestors : 65% from wild ancestors and
20% from ancestors since domestication.
------------------------------
Then there's a pie chart that goes in more detail, but it's much to
complicated for me to translate it. There are like 50 different terms
about dog behavior on it.
Maybe I'll just try to translate the behavioral patterns inherited
from domesticated ancestors:
- confidence in humans +/- 40% (of the 20%)
- ability to combine +/- 10%
- ability to learn +/- 10%
- inner assurance +/- 20%
Maybe someone knows of a link on the web where you can find this chart
in English ?
This means that you can't just teach anything to your dog. 90% of
training with dogs consists of turning his natural behavior to your
advantage.
You also have to keep a good pack, with the humans at the top of the
hierarchy. Just one problem : most adult dogs will think they 'have a
higher rank' than children. If such a dog feels challenged by a child
you risk an accident. So : 5 year olds shouldn't be taking away stuff
from adult dogs.
I realize that some dog handlers use this pack theory to justify
brutalizing their dog. But you will never find *in any of my
postings* the suggestion to act aggressivly toward the dog. Just be
fair and consistent toward the dog. Any command you give the dog
needs to be (correctly) executed, don't forbid something today and
allow it tomorrow etc ..
There are hundreds of sites around that will teach how to do just
that.
So, it took me ages to write this posting. I hope I didn't make to
many spelling mistakes.
Gtx, Philip.
PS. : A question : of two bosses, which one do you respect the most ?
Boss nr1 : Constantly checking what you are doing.
Constantly putting you under pressure.
Yelling at you if you make the slightest mistake.
Boss nr2 : Happy if the job is done on time and correctly.
Pointing out mistakes in normal tone and maybe
even give suggestions to improve your performance.
You just try to be boss nr 2 to your dog. He will probably never try
to challenge you.
PSS. : Maybe I didn't use the word 'fair' correctly. I thought fair
meant something like : just, correct, ~ honnest. For instance giving
a dog a correction hours after he has done something wrong will be
perceived by him as unfair. The dog won't understand why he is
getting a correction, he has already forgotten that he has done
something wrong. If you're being unfair to your dog, he will lose
confidence in you.
If I used the word 'fair' correctly, then I disagree with you Paul.
Dogs do know when they are treated fairly.
-----------------------------------
Nature doesn't need to be improved,
it needs respect !
-----------------------------------
On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 02:26:41 GMT, "Paul B"
<NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>How dogs behave in the wild is a far cry from how we want them to behave in
>a domestic environment. I don't know how my dogs view our setup and it
>doesn't really matter, if there is a problem I deal with it with appropriate
>methods to extinguish the behaviour but not by challenging the dog or
>dictating to them.
>
>I play kong on a rope tug with both my dogs all the time and they don't try
>to challenge me when I go to pick up the kong if it's lying about, to them
>it's a game, not a test of pack hierarchy.
>
>A dog shouldn't even 'want' to bite the kids, if you have to 'forbid' it
>then there are other problems with the relationship with the dog.
>
>I doubt a dog views the world as "fair" or "unfair", things just are in a
>dogs world.
>
>Dogs may live with a "pack" mentality in the wild but people don't, we live
>within a family environment, and that is what we want our dogs to live in
>too, so we need to teach our dogs to live in such an environment, that
>environment isn't full of dominance and challenging one another, but
>friendly, open, welcoming and most of all respectful. We respect each
>others privacy and tolerate each others differences and tantrums etc.
>That's how we want our dog to behave. If a dog has a behaviour that's
>inappropriate then we teach it so that behaviour ceases as with any other
>family member, no need to challenge and dominate.
>It seems to me if you put a dog in an environment where it's been challenged
>and dominated it will in turn learn to challenge and dominate where it can,
>if you put it in an environment where it can learn and make mistakes and be
>taught appropriate behaviour then that's how it will behave.
>
>If the dog is made part of the family, then as well as it becoming part of
>"our family" we become part of "it's family" or even "it's pack" if you want
>and it will protect & not challenge if everything is in order.
>
>It's a mystery to me why you wouldn't trust a dog left alone with children,
>if everything's been done properly the dog will have no desire what so ever
>to hurt the kids, rather it will want to play and enjoy their company,.
>
>Paul
>
>--
>See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
>
>http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
>
>Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
>"Lappe" <qlife67-no...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3a7df77e...@news.freegates.be...
>> To understand a dog's behavior in (a)(your) family, you have to
>> understand how wild dogs behave in a pack. Your dog thinks he's
>> living in a pack not in a family, he doesn't know the concept family.
>>
(..)
>> **Also you should teach your kids not to take away any objects from
>> your dog.**
>>
(..)
>>
>> Regards, Philip.
>>
>> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:44:24 -0600, "Jeff Stapleton" <j...@megsinet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years old.
>My
>> >son is 5 years old and our dog has a special place that he likes to go to
>> >when he wants to be alone. We call it his special den (which is actually
>> (..)
>> >Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He seems
>to
>> >lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever does
>it
>> >to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
>> >
>> >Thanks for your advice!
>> >
>> >--
>> >Wendy Stapleton
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Nature doesn't need to be improved,
>> it needs respect !
>> -----------------------------------
>
>
-----------------------------------
Nature doesn't need to be improved,
it needs respect !
-----------------------------------
dw
60% of Roaming dogs are intact. 80% of untrained (not poorly) dogs are intact
males. Left in the backyard to figure out how to act etc.
SPCA says that intact males are the most likely to be neglected, have poor
fencing, poor medical treatment, lack of social interaction etc. Many intact
males are intact because the level of attention and care is so low.
Chicken & egg type of thing.
Would litter mates given the same treatment with the only diff being intact or
not have bite rates that are different. No study ever done, the studies have
shown various medical diff but no ability diff's. I would bet the diff in
bite rates would be very little compared to the different between well cared
for and poorly care for.
dw
all in favor of s&n for many reason but can accept many reasons for not doing
it - however poor reason are plentiful.
Jerry Howe
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3A7EEEDD...@oakhillkennel.com...
> [posted and mailed]
> Jeff Stapleton wrote:
> > What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we
> > train our children to stay away from him when he is in his den?
> > Please advise.
> Common sense dictates that
He consider the source of the bums telling him to use COMMON SENSE. COMMON
SENSE tells ME that it's not RIGHT to BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE
them.
> some change should be made.
That's why I'm here.
> The bite could have been worse, and there is no certainty,
> currently, that another, worse bite will not occur.
The bite is not the issue.
> You have been receiving conflicting advice.
Only from the bums who HURT and KILL dogs.
> It can be very difficult to judge over the Internet who does, and
> who does not, know what they are talking about.
That's why I have lengthy posts detailing the abuse you do and your denial
of your own published words. I'll post them again below. You are a dog
abuser and a proven liar.
> You might find it much easier to evaluate a local person in a
> face-to-face meeting.
Yeah. Let one of these fast talking double talkers start running their yap,
and you'll be ready to HURT your dog like they tell you to.
> A local trainer or behaviorist can also provide credentials
> which can be checked.
Credentials like YOURS? Like janet boss? Or lying"I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn? Or
cindymooreon? She's been banned from two obedience clubs for being a
SADIST. She soves fingers down puppys throats to choke them out of mouthing,
chin cuffs, scruff shakes, oh, I almost forgot, you do too, so I don't need
to tell you anyMOORE abusive training methods your pals use.
> I strongly encourage you to consult one.
Maybe ask the local kill shelter if they know a good trainer...
> There are very good consultants available.
The chances of finding a competent trainer are less than 10%.
> If you let us know the region in which you live, I bet someone on
> this newsgroup can recommend someone near you.
That WOULD present a dillemma, eh? IMAGINE! Your pals recommending a
TRAINER??? BWWWAHAHAAAA!!! All you and your pals know is HOWE to HURT dogs.
> Then you can satisfy yourself that he/she is qualified and has
> your best interests at heart,
Yeah. Ask YOU OR lyingdogDUMMY or john richardson to recommend a good
trainer. BWWWWAHAHAAA!!!
> which you cannot do with contributors on r.p.d.b.,
You mean ME? Don't worry about it lyingfrosty dahl. He can always HURT his
dog in a couple of weeks if my methods don't work...
> before deciding whether to take his/her advice.
But he can't UN HURT his dog if he follows your advice, can he?
> Please don't entrust the well-being of your children and your pet
> to a bunch of strangers on the Internet.
LIKE YOU??? See lyingfrosty dahl? You're a proven dog abuser and liar.
> Amy
Here's proof:
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you are
full of bizarro manure."
Amy lyingfrosty Dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For
the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who
chooses not to read the article, there is NO mention in
it of twisting ears.
I would never slap a dog.
I would never advise anyone to slap a dog.
I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever,
where slapping a dog is anything but destructive."
RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff
doesn't mean slap, it means hit.
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch."
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.
Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,
Now you are ready to progress to what most people
think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts
to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear.
if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the
shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996":
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem
makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often
enough to let him know you were against his sound
effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet them,
so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of
water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start
with something more emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct:
the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and
windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary
people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a
good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and
plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his
mind rather than his mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless
you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise
the control he thus acquires. Make sure these
opportunities don't always come at the same time
of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow
the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the
most from his lesson. As was mentioned before,
eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the
dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows
more discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or
lonesomeness because you're gone constitutes a
different problem. If it is impractical for someone
to stay with him constantly (there are owners who
cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have
to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog.
This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective
effort doesn't turn into a footrace around the house
until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of
the line in the correction will also serve to establish it
as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around
when you're not present.
Next, equip yourself with a man's leather belt or a
strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good
tanning. Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard.
Remember, you're dealing with a dog who knows he
should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to
see that he does.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to
the door so you can barge in while he's still barking,
which is generally impossible, respond to his first
sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep
on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt
that you've conveniently placed, and descend on him.
He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or,
if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a
hitch on something.
While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter
end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on
the number of repeat performances that will be
necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he
is, put him on a long down to think things over while
you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes,
release him from the stay and leave the area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth
that a great percentage of the barkers who are given
away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box
with the sweet smell. Personally, I've always felt that
it's even better to spank children, even if they "cry
out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch
before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he
does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent
correction to his first sound and repeat the
spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another
day off so that you'll have time to follow through
sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able
to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job
easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the
time, he'll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the
correction" will be tied in close enough association so
that you can move in on him without the preliminary
bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just a case of
laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be
quiet when you're not around, so give the above
method an honest try before you presume your dog
requires a more severe correction.
"Housebreaking problems:
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Ask yourself "WHY DOESN'T JERRY HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?"
And then just answer "BECAUSE JERRY KNOWS HOWE
TO TRAIN DOGS WITHOUT HURTING THEM."
And THEN SAY OUT LOUD: "IGNORE JERRY, HE'S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS."
You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY
handle and train your dog using non force, non
confronatational, scientific and psychological
methods, in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com
The Wits' End Dog Training Method manual is provided
compliments of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an
alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too).
Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}
Jerry Howe
"Joshua Rosenblatt" <Jos...@Rosenblatt.com> wrote in message
> Jerry Howe wrote:
> > Hahaahahahaha. You're an imbicile. j;~}
> thanks you.
> Coming from you, that is the highest compliment. Seems I have
> some VERY good company.
TRY THIS:
Helle Haugenes
wrote:
>Helle wrote:
>>[..]
>Thanks so much for what appears to me to be a reasonable recommendation!
You're very welcome, Wendy :-) I bet you didn't expect all this
attention when you posted your message, huh?
[..]
>I know every newsgroup has its share of flame wars, but when someone who is
>looking for reasonable advice shows up, I wish the flame throwers could be
>set aside in favor of good judgement and kindness for the poster. You have
>shown both and I appreciate it!
The way I see it that no one here has any reason or right to fuzz at
you, and it certainly will not help you solve your problem. The main
thing is that you have discovered that you do have a problem and want
to solve it. You seem to have a clear idea of what the problem is, and
that's half the problem solved.
In my first reply to you I didn't mention anything about how to get
the dog used to the children crawling under the table and taking stuff
away from the dog, which would be the ideal situation. The reason for
this is that it would involve exposing your children to situations
they possible cannot handle. Maybe later, for now you have more
important things to work with.
>We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the playful
>excercises you suggested. Many thanks,
I wish that you do read the entire thread, even though you might not
agree with every poster, there are several very sensible messages (in
my opinion) that you can benefit from. Also, before you start the new
training, think things over, make plans and goals for the training,
and most important; include the whole family in the process. Don't do
anything unless you feel it's right for you and your dog.
Well, I do hope that you and your family work things out with your
dog! Keep us posted, ok?!
Helle :-)
Jerry Howe
"Ann Stewart" <aste...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A7F36CD...@home.com...
> I really feel bad for this dog.
No you don't. You only feel FEAR.
> His owners let him away with these behaviours.
It kind of snuck up on them, and it's not a difficult problem to solve. The
dog sounds pretty good except for that small problem.
> He growled they let him do what he wanted. Now the dog has
> bitten their child and now they are asking where did we go
> wrong, but from what I've read it doesn't sound like they are
> really willing to try to remedy the situation by training the dog.
That's why they wrote in here. And they haven't got any help yet, either.
> What's going to happen next time?
Ain't gonna be no next time if they listen to me. The dog's dead if they
listen to you and your pals. You're a hopless case yourself with your own
dogs.
> Hopefully there won't be a next time but unless they are willing
> to train the dog there very likely will be a next time.
Your pals would rather kill the dog.
> Maybe next time will be a much more severe bite.
Anything could happen. Nice thought, worry them moore than they already are.
That's what you THRIVE ON. That's why you can't train your own dog, because
you are AFRAID not FORCE him.
> Maybe next time it won't even be their kid.
Like with steve and Samson.
> The really sad thing though is that they will likely go right out,
> get another dog and let it do the same things that this one has
> been allowed to do.
They're gonna follow my instructions and fix their dog and go on with their
lives.
> I think there's still hope for the dog if the owners are willing to
> put some effort into it, but if they aren't they might just as well
> get rid of the dog now.
Of course all your pals would NEED to KILL this dog if they brought her to
find a home with no children, huh. That's the state of the art around here,
ann. That's YOUR PALS.
> Ann
Some of us don't HURT and KILL dogs ann. Some of us have REAL help for these
people. But YOU like to tell them not to listen to me, because I'm not SMART
ENOUGH to even know HOWE to HURT dogs to train them.
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
Amy Dahl
from one of those ads posted by the side of the road. The
breed probably isn't important but it was a good-sized dog.
The early part of the story was a lot like this Golden.
Hoarding stuff, laying claim to this or that spot, a minor
bite.
Then one day the daughter bent down to pick something up
off the kitchen floor and the dog attacked. By the guy's
own admission, if he hadn't been carrying a gun and shot
the dog his daughter would have been killed. As it was
she was permanently disfigured and minus the end of her
nose.
Shortly thereafter, these people got another puppy of the
same breed from a roadside seller. (My friend ceased to
have anything to do with them at that point, so we don't
know how the new dog did.)
Ann Stewart wrote:
>
> The really sad thing though is that they will likely go right out, get
> another dog and let it do the same things that this one has been allowed
> to do.
--
Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710
Oak Hill Kennel & Handling email: a...@oakhillkennel.com
Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
James L. Ryan
(in message <3A7F36CD...@home.com>):
> Now the dog has bitten their child and now they are asking where did we go
> wrong, but from what I've read it doesn't sound like they are really willing
> to try to remedy the situation by training the dog.
The following was posted today by the owner of the biting Golden Retriever in
response to a specific set of suggestions made in this thread.
"We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the playful
excercises you suggested."
That seems to suggest a willingness to train both the kids and the dog.
Jerry Howe
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Rhpf6.3701$zv1.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> The original poster is simply ignorant of the power in a large
> dog's jaws.
I've trained dogs professionally almost forty years and been bit and
scratched and suckered in by lots of different kinds of critters. It don't
matter. Getting growled at sucks as bad as getting bit.
> She will get a quick education if they end up having to pay for the
> services of a plastic surgeon.
What's typical of folks who don't understand dog behavior problems is their
reliance on SCARE TACTICS to prove their point. Ever notice our Gang Of
Thugs NEVER uses REAL situations when discussing training with me? They
always resort to the most ridiculous hypothetical IMPOSSIBILITIES to try to
confound my training methods. You're doing the same thing here. It tells me
you don't have anything to say that makes sense on it's own. That's a
koehler tactic. That's HOWE koehler convinces folks to hurt their dogs and
call it training. He's always pulling out the save the dog from the needle
crap.
This isn't a major behavior problem.
Your pal Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
> "e. saxon" <rho...@mcs.com> wrote in message
> news:040220012144075155%rho...@mcs.com...
> > In article <3a7df16f$0$70811$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net>, Jeff
> > Stapleton <j...@megsinet.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks so much for what appears to me to be a reasonable
recommendation!
> > > Having read the prior posts, some of which, knowing very little about
> the
> > > situation and the dog, suggest possibly killing the dog. WHAT????
> > >
> > Wendy,
> >
> > i think you may have mis-interpreted this.
> >
> > many of the people who in their replies to you listed the option of
> > euthanising the dog did so in order to illustrate the seriousness of
> > your families' situation (i include your dog in this).
> >
> > most of these people work in rescue and/or have rescued pets, and i can
> > tell you that i (and they) hear stories just like yours attached to
> > every third dog that gets dumped at the shelter i volunteer at. this
> > number pales next to the hords of animals turned into our nation's
> > pounds that get euthanised after their 7 days are up or they flunk a
> > cursory temprament test.
> >
> > these dogs aren't incorrigible. for the most part they are unfortunate
> > to have owners who didn't want to be rude to their dog and eventually
> > things got way out of hand.
> >
> > none of us want this future for your dog.
> > desparately.
> >
> > if i've read this thread correctly, (barring j. howe) the majority
> > consenses is that your pup should not be permitted to establish and
> > defend territory from your members of your family. Melanie has given
> > you some wonderful reading advice, and you've been refered to NILIF.
> >
> > you've decided to accomodate your dog, and i hope that works for you.
> >
> > personally i think it's a mistake. i grew up in a household with an
> > accomodated dog, and eventually we rarely had company --the dog &
> > children were too unpredictable. on the other hand, the dog lived to a
> > ripe old age. i was bitten several times, but my parents felt it was my
> > fault.
> >
> > if Helle's sugestions don't work, i hope you'll at least re-examine
> > Jane, Dogstar, Ann & Melanie's posts before giving up or dumping your
> > dog.
> >
> > eve
> >
> > > I know every newsgroup has its share of flame wars, but when someone
who
> is
> > > looking for reasonable advice shows up, I wish the flame throwers
could
> be
> > > set aside in favor of good judgement and kindness for the poster. You
> have
> > > shown both and I appreciate it!
> > >
> > > We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the
> playful
> > > excercises you suggested. Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Wendy
> > >
> > > Helle Haugenes <haug...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
> > > news:163r7t8husgur7cqm...@4ax.com...
> > > > On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:44:24 -0600, "Jeff Stapleton"
<j...@megsinet.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >We have a male golden retriever who is not neutered and is 3 years
> old.
> > > >
> > > > Good for you :-) I see no reason to neuter dogs unless they have
> > > > medical or behavioral problems that requires neutering. Nothing
> > > > indicates that your dog would not have these problems if he was
> > > > neutered.
> > > >
> > > > [..]
> > > > >What should we do? Should we get rid of our dog? Should we train
> our
> > > > >children to stay away from him when he is in his den? Please
advise.
> > > >
> > > > First; you have to take the dog's signals seriously. He's growling
for
> > > > a reason, it's important that you respect that and find ways to
teach
> > > > him that he has nothing to fear (and prove it to him). By that I do
> > > > _not_ mean that you're supposed to accept his growling, I mean that
> > > > you need to find out how to avoid it.
> > > >
> > > > When living with children, I think every dog deserves a place where
he
> > > > can be on his own without being bothered by the children. So, an
> > > > obvious place to start, is to teach the children to leave him alone
in
> > > > his "den". (If you don't agree with you need an additional approach
to
> > > > get the dog to accept being approached by the kids when in his den)
> > > >
> > > > You need to make the dog learn to let go of things, to show him he
has
> > > > no reason to guard things whether they're his toys or anything else.
> > > > Since the kids are the ones having trouble with this, I suggest that
> > > > you include them in the training sessions.
> > > >
> > > > Some will think that the way to go about this training is to force
the
> > > > dog to let go, scold him, or whatever.. I don't because it is more
> > > > likely to inforce the behavior. I prefer to turn the guarding
> > > > situations into another type of situation so that he will not get a
> > > > chance to guard. You can do this by offering some activity, toy or
> > > > food in return in the situations where he would normally guard. The
> > > > idea is to make him feel like you're not after his things, and
> > > > therefore he has no reason to guard. This is easier to explain with
an
> > > > example:
> > > >
> > > > For instance with the towel under the table: Instead of your son
going
> > > > under the table and taking the towel away from the dog, he could
have
> > > > called the dog and asked him to retrieve the towel. In return the
dog
> > > > would get play, praise, food, etc (Some kind of reward). What
happens
> > > > then, is that your son would turn the situasjon from: "this is mine"
> > > > to "If I am good and bring the towel, I get to have some fun/a
> > > > snack/etc".
> > > >
> > > > >Also, when a dog licks you on the face, what does that mean? He
> seems
> > > to
> > > > >lick our children on the face more than he does us. He hardly ever
> does
> > > it
> > > > >to my husband and rarely ever licks me on the face.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect (although I don't know), that it has to do with the same
> > > > reason as the dog will growl when the kids approach him in his den.
> > > >
> > > > Kids act differently and often with less "sternness"(?) around dogs.
> > > > Therefore the dog can get away with more, or even get insecure (in
the
> > > > case of the guarding). The kids might give some kind of response to
> > > > licking that the dog likes. On the other hand, you might respond
> > > > differently.. pushing the dog away or something that is less
rewarding
> > > > to the dog.
> > > >
> > > > My dog never licks my face because I can't stand the smelly dog
> > > > breath, so I can't compare that. But with greeting at the door, she
> > > > will go nuts with happiness when certain people come, while all she
> > > > gives me is eager tail-wagging. Her different greeting patterns has
to
> > > > do with the response she gets from different people. I never liked
her
> > > > jumping and going nuts when I come home.. I like it calm. But the
> > > > people she goes nuts when seeing makes all this fuzz, loud noises
and
> > > > lets her walk all over them. And she loves it.
> > > >
> > > > >Thanks for your advice!
> > > >
> > > > Hope it helps :-)
> > > >
> > > > Helle
> > > >
>
>
Elaine Gallant
Even a small dog can cause a LOT of damage to a child.
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3A7F5CE4...@oakhillkennel.com...
Elaine Gallant
Sounded like a recipe for disaster to me.
"James L. Ryan" <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:01HW.B6A4CD4D0...@news.earthlink.net...
Ann Stewart
"James L. Ryan" wrote
>
> The following was posted today by the owner of the biting Golden Retriever in
> response to a specific set of suggestions made in this thread.
>
> "We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the playful
> excercises you suggested."
>
> That seems to suggest a willingness to train both the kids and the dog.
>
> --
> James L. Ryan, TaliesinSoft
I apologize, I missed a bunch of posts.
I do hope they follow through and everything works out for them and the
dog.
Ann
James L. Ryan
<3A7F9672...@home.com>):
> "James L. Ryan" wrote
>>
>> The following was posted today by the owner of the biting Golden
>> Retriever in response to a specific set of suggestions made in this
>> thread.
>>
>> "We will work with the kids to recognize his "den" and work on the playful
>> excercises you suggested."
>>
>> That seems to suggest a willingness to train both the kids and the dog.
> I apologize, I missed a bunch of posts. I do hope they follow through and
> everything works out for them and the dog.
No apology needed! I can understand missing some posts in a thread that's as
busy as this one has been. I too hope that everything works out for the
better.
James L. Ryan
(in message <_4Mf6.599$Nj5....@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>):
[commenting on my posting where I quoted the owners of the biting Golden
Retriever as to their wanting to follow through with some suggestions as to
how to eliminate the unwanted behavior]
> Sounded like a recipe for disaster to me.
What specifically is it that would prompt you feel so?
Jane Webb
Ryan <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I think it
> is premature to suggest that Wendy and her husband Jeff are not "serious" or
> "interested" in learning more about behavior.
Perhaps they are. The response sounded a bit soft to me.
And yes -- dogs can have a personal space -- should, in fact. BUT it
shouldn't be inviolate. Ppl -- even little ones -- should be able to do
anything with a dog, whether or not the dog is in it's sanctum
sanctorum.
AND of course, the kids should be prevented from inappropriate
treatment of the dog, no matter where he is.
I was possibly premature (but it is a serious issue, and no mention was
made of obedience training or behaviorists or anything), but it
sounnded as if she was saying "I'll tell the kiddies to make nicey
nicey to doggie and not bother him or he might growl/bite them." Not
the approach I'd take.
--
Jane Webb
Moonpie &
Raisin Pie
http://www.webbweave.com
Jane Webb
Ryan <talies...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "prevent the dog from HAVING a personal
> space."
I wasn't clear on that, either. I think it's important that the dog not
be allowed to have THAT personal space. SHe said it was under a table
in the front room. Too public, and he has misbehaved there before. A
crate in an out of the way place would be much better.