Runt of the Litter Theory
Adrienne Caldwell
the runt of the litter. He was basing his conclusion on her weight and
size for her breed type, skin allergies, coat appearance, temperament,
etc. According to him, a runt of the litter is often the target of
other aggressive dogs. He said other dogs are always able to pick up on
the fact that a dog was a runt of the litter (that they have these
physical/psychological characteristics throughout their life). He
stated that runts of the litter are just as much of a target to
aggressive dogs as would be a sick or injured dog.
Does anyone have any information on this. I have never breed dogs or
had a dog that had a litter so I have nothing to draw from in my
personal experience.
The reason I ask is that I'm trying to figure out why Gremlin elicits
the wrath of so many dogs. She was severely abused when I found her and
extremely aggressive toward people (of course this was resolved a long
time ago). She did not develop a problem with other dogs until later.
Her first attack was by an abused Rotty (male) who just walked up to her
out of nowhere and caused a severe bite wound to her stomach. The
second was from a Siberian Husky (female) who alpha rolled her and dug
into her stomach. Then there is her most recent attack by a female
antolian shepard. I stopped going to the local dog run because of the
anatiolian shepard who tried to charge Gremlin the first time she ever
saw her.
Then Gremlin has to be separated from Yoko. I guess you could say
Gremlin invited Yoko's hatred by growling at her when we first got her.
But still growling shouldn't incite outright hatred. Then Gremlin was
also attacked by a stray I took in when she (the stray) suddenly went
into heat. Gremlin initially growled at the stray a couple of times and
tried to twice start dominance fights. But then this was resolved and
she and the stray were sleeping curled up next to one another until one
day the stray out of nowhere severely attacked her.
Just curious as to this runt of the litter stuff - if anyone has any
opinions. (As an aside - Gremlin has never bit another dog. Upon
meeting a new dog she will usually growl at them a couple of times and
then after is always willing to become their best friend. She has both
male and female close buddies. But this tendency for her to become the
target of some dogs is a mystery).
Thanks.
--
Adrienne
Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau
John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog"
http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_story_of_a_dog.html
(In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max and Puppy)
DW
some other problems noticed a relationship between minor medical problems and "targets"
of what he calls puppy wrath which often starts with a detailed smelling of the runt by
the other puppies. I wonder if there is a muli-layered "system" going on here.
Maybe a detailed workup is needed on Gremlin.
dw
DogStar716
>opinions.
Hmm. I don't think being a runt has anything to do with a dog who incites
wrath in another dog just by being there. My dog was the runt, and has never
had that problem.
I have seen many dogs who come through my obedience classes who seem to be the
"Nerd" (for want of a better term :). There is a Standard Poodle youngster in
one right now who makes all the other dogs get defensive or grumbly. To me,
she looks and acts normal. My sister also had a young male dog who was a
magnet for other male dogs to come and hump. Couldn't figure it out, as the
males acted like he was a bitch in heat, it wasn't a dominance thing. Maybe
these "Nerd" dogs give off some type of smell or body language that only other
dogs can understand. I don't think being a runt has anything to do with it :)
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Gunnar
"Stupidity is a fact of life." - Jerry Howe
Adrienne Caldwell
> Interesting enough a reseacher at UC Davis who is working with dogs to "smell" cancer and
> some other problems noticed a relationship between minor medical problems and "targets"
> of what he calls puppy wrath which often starts with a detailed smelling of the runt by
> the other puppies. I wonder if there is a muli-layered "system" going on here.
>
> Maybe a detailed workup is needed on Gremlin.
Gremlin has had detailed work ups at the New York Animal Medical Center. Her last work up
was several months ago at the vet's office. It could well be that runt's of the litter who
are - of any other medical problems can be detected by smell throughout their entire life.
On the other issue, I once read an article about a woman who was prompted to have a breast
cancer screening because her dog kept sniffing at her right breast. Sure enough the tests
were postive. (And I hope this isn't always an indication as this is what my dog Lewis has
been doing to me).
DW
program is in field trials I think and is fast, cheap and more acc then Human inspection and
the common proceedure. Seem that the size isn't a factor, that spots as small as the
period-.- are detected by the dog. With earlier being better for SC we may see sniffing clincs
soon.....
dw
Chris Williams
> this. I have never breed dogs or had a
> draw from in my personal experience.
-------------
Chiming in, Adrienne, to say I hope your question generates informed
responses.
Different problem; same speculation. Granny was middle-aged when I
found her, and, as she approaches the end of her life, I've failed to
give her the least bit of self-esteem. She places herself at the end of
the line for treats, and seems to expect to be last for everything.
Dogs don't try to dominate her because, I guess, it's so obvious they
don't have to.
It really bothers me that she'll never know what a sweetheart she
is.
DW
biggest heart not those with the smallest desire.
Mother Th' lives among us all.
dw
Susan Feingold
Don't know if I go along with the runt of the litter theory. My
german shepherd was a sickly runt of the litter and no dogs ever
bothered him. We do occasionally get dogs in our rescue program
that other dogs will attack with absolutely no reason. These dogs
are generally sweet and aren't doing anything to elicit the attack,
and yet dog after dog will jump them and attack them ....
Anyway, my theory has always been that these dogs smell differently
from the other dogs in some way.... because the dogs don't even have
to look at each other to be attacked.
-Susan Feingold
Pet Orphans Rescue
http://www.petorphans.com
Adrienne Caldwell <a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>My former vet, who is now retired, described my shepard/chow Gremlin as
>the runt of the litter. He was basing his conclusion on her weight and
>size for her breed type, skin allergies, coat appearance, temperament,
>etc. According to him, a runt of the litter is often the target of
>other aggressive dogs. He said other dogs are always able to pick up on
>the fact that a dog was a runt of the litter (that they have these
>physical/psychological characteristics throughout their life). He
>stated that runts of the litter are just as much of a target to
>aggressive dogs as would be a sick or injured dog.
>Does anyone have any information on this. I have never breed dogs or
>had a dog that had a litter so I have nothing to draw from in my
>personal experience.
>The reason I ask is that I'm trying to figure out why Gremlin elicits
>the wrath of so many dogs. She was severely abused when I found her and
>extremely aggressive toward people (of course this was resolved a long
>time ago). She did not develop a problem with other dogs until later.
>Her first attack was by an abused Rotty (male) who just walked up to her
>out of nowhere and caused a severe bite wound to her stomach. The
>second was from a Siberian Husky (female) who alpha rolled her and dug
>into her stomach. Then there is her most recent attack by a female
>antolian shepard. I stopped going to the local dog run because of the
>anatiolian shepard who tried to charge Gremlin the first time she ever
>saw her.
>Then Gremlin has to be separated from Yoko. I guess you could say
>Gremlin invited Yoko's hatred by growling at her when we first got her.
>But still growling shouldn't incite outright hatred. Then Gremlin was
>also attacked by a stray I took in when she (the stray) suddenly went
>into heat. Gremlin initially growled at the stray a couple of times and
>tried to twice start dominance fights. But then this was resolved and
>she and the stray were sleeping curled up next to one another until one
>day the stray out of nowhere severely attacked her.
>Just curious as to this runt of the litter stuff - if anyone has any
>opinions. (As an aside - Gremlin has never bit another dog. Upon
>meeting a new dog she will usually growl at them a couple of times and
>then after is always willing to become their best friend. She has both
>male and female close buddies. But this tendency for her to become the
>target of some dogs is a mystery).
>Thanks.
>--
Adrienne Caldwell
> Don't know if I go along with the runt of the litter theory. My
> german shepherd was a sickly runt of the litter and no dogs ever
> bothered him. We do occasionally get dogs in our rescue program
> that other dogs will attack with absolutely no reason. These dogs
> are generally sweet and aren't doing anything to elicit the attack,
> and yet dog after dog will jump them and attack them ....
>
> Anyway, my theory has always been that these dogs smell differently
> from the other dogs in some way.... because the dogs don't even have
> to look at each other to be attacked.
Yes. This is the case with Gremlin. I would have attributed the attacks that she has
recieved to the first few growls she sometimes gives to let a new dog know that she needs
time to become buddy buddy. But so often it was just an out of the blue thing with no
prior introduction. I think your right - its probably not a runt of the litter thing,
but maybe something to do with smell.
It's almost like a dog that is almost always great with people, but then every once in a
while they will have an aversion to an especially nice person. In these instances I
always thought that it had something to do with the particular scent of that person.
Adrienne Caldwell
> Chiming in, Adrienne, to say I hope your question generates informed
> responses.
> Different problem; same speculation. Granny was middle-aged when I
> found her, and, as she approaches the end of her life, I've failed to
> give her the least bit of self-esteem. She places herself at the end of
> the line for treats, and seems to expect to be last for everything.
> Dogs don't try to dominate her because, I guess, it's so obvious they
> don't have to.
> It really bothers me that she'll never know what a sweetheart she
> is.
Hi Chris. Your Granny reminds me of Puppy - my pit bull mix who was killed
by a car last year. I think Puppy knew how truly special and exceptional
she was. She was just incredably generous in spirit. I think Granny knows
how special she is - and the generosity may be a sign of self-esteem.
--
Amy Dahl
Chris Williams wrote:
>
> Different problem; same speculation. Granny was middle-aged when I
> found her, and, as she approaches the end of her life, I've failed to
> give her the least bit of self-esteem. She places herself at the end of
> the line for treats, and seems to expect to be last for everything.
> Dogs don't try to dominate her because, I guess, it's so obvious they
> don't have to.
> It really bothers me that she'll never know what a sweetheart she
> is.
This is one of the reasons I dislike encouraging submissive
behavior in dogs. In many ways it reminds me of depressed
behavior in human beings. Without more than guessing at the
dog's mental state, my personal opinion is that one aspect
of human depression is the behavior pattern--which, once
altered, can lead to a happier state of mind.
--
Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710
Oak Hill Kennel & Handling email: a...@oakhillkennel.com
Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
Toni
Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3821C620...@oakhillkennel.com...
> This is one of the reasons I dislike encouraging submissive
> behavior in dogs. In many ways it reminds me of depressed
> behavior in human beings. Without more than guessing at the
> dog's mental state, my personal opinion is that one aspect
> of human depression is the behavior pattern--which, once
> altered, can lead to a happier state of mind.
But isn't this the challenge in owning multiple dogs?
Giving each the one-on-one bonding/training time to make them feel special?
I often disagree with the dominant-submissive rating system we allow the
dogs to employ- in my home all humans are dominant, and all dogs are equal.
I'm sure there are differences in breeds traditionally kept in packs, and
solitary herding type temperaments, but still.........
I couldn't stand by and watch my oldest and dearest shoved aside by the
young whippersnapper.
--
Toni
www.irish-wolfhounds.com
e-mail Toni [at] irish-wolfhounds [dot] com
Janet Gunn
He said other dogs are always able to pick up on
> the fact that a dog was a runt of the litter (that they have these
> physical/psychological characteristics throughout their life). He
> stated that runts of the litter are just as much of a target to
> aggressive dogs as would be a sick or injured dog.
>
> Does anyone have any information on this. I have never breed dogs or
> had a dog that had a litter so I have nothing to draw from in my
> personal experience.
>
of her litter (about 2/3 the size of the others at 1 day old). Her
mother abandoned her, and we hand raised her.
She is now definitely the alpha non-human in the house, over her mother,
an unrelated male cat, three male dogs, and a succession of foster dogs.
So she was the runt from a physical perspective, and was rejected by
her mother, but she did not have the experience of "growing up" the
runt of the litter. If being "the runt" makes them submissive, I
supsect it is due to "nurture", not "nature".
Janet
tmpnsan
>
<snip>
>> out of nowhere and caused a severe bite wound to her stomach. The
>> second was from a Siberian Husky (female) who alpha rolled her and dug
>> into her stomach. Then there is her most recent attack by a female
>> antolian shepard. I stopped going to the local dog run because of the
>> anatiolian shepard who tried to charge Gremlin the first time she ever
>> saw her.
Folks help me out here. Wouldn't a dog that shows aggression towards another
dog normally go after the neck, back, legs and/or tail? What is this
fixation for this dog's tummy? Not having seen too many dog fights, is this
normal? Just curious. Thanks.
BTW, Adrienne, sorry to hear about Gremlin's mishaps. :(
To get back on topic, I have a 73 lb. litter runt who would like nothing more
than to play with every dog she meets and vice versa (so far).
buglady
researcher is and how they came up with the idea to use dogs? The Orientals
have been using *smell* as a diagnostic tool for a long time.
buglady
take out the dog before replying
DW wrote in message <3821A667...@pacbell.net>...
Nancy E. Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
status in a pack.
However yes I can tell you *maybe* some more realistic causes for other dogs
to pick on your girl.
The generalized 'illness' that the skin allergies show exists in your dog
most likely can be picked up as an odor by other dogs. Illness can evoke
attacks by some dogs. Timid dogs often provoke attacks (hey happens with
timid humans too) simply by their behavior. But a telltale thing hard for
humans to pick up is that IME a dog that has experienced one attack and is
worried about another possible one happening will release some anal gland
odor in terror on seeing another dog and that odor often triggers aggression
(you can even see aggressive posturing after emptying the anal glands of one
pack member when you have your own herd).
IME the runt is often the feistiest most aggressive dog in a litter -
depends on the breed I think!
Nancy
Adrienne Caldwell wrote in message <38213F2F...@mindspring.com>...
>My former vet, who is now retired, described my shepard/chow Gremlin as
>the runt of the litter. He was basing his conclusion on her weight and
>size for her breed type, skin allergies, coat appearance, temperament,
>etc. According to him, a runt of the litter is often the target of
>the fact that a dog was a runt of the litter (that they have these
>physical/psychological characteristics throughout their life). He
>stated that runts of the litter are just as much of a target to
>aggressive dogs as would be a sick or injured dog.
>
>Does anyone have any information on this. I have never breed dogs or
>had a dog that had a litter so I have nothing to draw from in my
>personal experience.
>
>the wrath of so many dogs. She was severely abused when I found her and
>extremely aggressive toward people (of course this was resolved a long
>time ago). She did not develop a problem with other dogs until later.
>Her first attack was by an abused Rotty (male) who just walked up to her
>second was from a Siberian Husky (female) who alpha rolled her and dug
>into her stomach. Then there is her most recent attack by a female
>antolian shepard. I stopped going to the local dog run because of the
>anatiolian shepard who tried to charge Gremlin the first time she ever
>saw her.
>
>Gremlin invited Yoko's hatred by growling at her when we first got her.
>But still growling shouldn't incite outright hatred. Then Gremlin was
>also attacked by a stray I took in when she (the stray) suddenly went
>into heat. Gremlin initially growled at the stray a couple of times and
>tried to twice start dominance fights. But then this was resolved and
>she and the stray were sleeping curled up next to one another until one
>day the stray out of nowhere severely attacked her.
>
>Just curious as to this runt of the litter stuff - if anyone has any
>opinions. (As an aside - Gremlin has never bit another dog. Upon
>meeting a new dog she will usually growl at them a couple of times and
>then after is always willing to become their best friend. She has both
>male and female close buddies. But this tendency for her to become the
>target of some dogs is a mystery).
>
>Thanks.
>
Adrienne Caldwell
> LOL - I think your vet has some really weird ideas on runts and their social
> status in a pack.
> However yes I can tell you *maybe* some more realistic causes for other dogs
> to pick on your girl.
> The generalized 'illness' that the skin allergies show exists in your dog
> most likely can be picked up as an odor by other dogs. Illness can evoke
> attacks by some dogs. Timid dogs often provoke attacks (hey happens with
> timid humans too) simply by their behavior. But a telltale thing hard for
> humans to pick up is that IME a dog that has experienced one attack and is
> worried about another possible one happening will release some anal gland
> odor in terror on seeing another dog and that odor often triggers aggression
> (you can even see aggressive posturing after emptying the anal glands of one
> pack member when you have your own herd).
Yes. This makes sense also.
Dianne Schoenberg
Adrienne Caldwell <a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>My former vet, who is now retired, described my shepard/chow Gremlin as
>the runt of the litter. He was basing his conclusion on her weight and
>size for her breed type, skin allergies, coat appearance, temperament,
>etc.
No offense to your former vet, but that's one of the sillier things I've
ever heard. The runt is the smallest puppy in a litter, period. Being
small at birth has no affect on coat appearance or allergies. It also has
no effect on adult size--for instance, one of my dogs was the smallest in
his litter, but grew up to be WAY oversized & towers over his parents and
sibs now. He's also a confident and secure dog who is quick and efficient
at communicating the pack order to canine visitors at my home. I haven't
met a dog yet who's been stupid enough to attack him.
>The reason I ask is that I'm trying to figure out why Gremlin elicits
>the wrath of so many dogs. She was severely abused when I found her and
>extremely aggressive toward people (of course this was resolved a long
>time ago). She did not develop a problem with other dogs until later.
Ah. Here's the vital piece of information. If she was abused, she was
almost certainly not well-socialized with other dogs. Socialization for
dogs involves the development of important communication skills. A normal,
well-adjusted dog has no problem telling others "I'm a puppy!" "I'm
grouchy, leave me alone," "I'm curious about you," etc. etc. etc. A dog
that's not been socialized doesn't know how to send clear and consistant
signals to other dogs, and some dogs will respond to that by attacking
without warning.
I went through this too with one of my dogs--before I'd gotten her, she'd
kept tied out in a backyard with *no* socialization to either people or
other dogs. Needless to say she was pretty freaky at first :-(. I've lost
track of how many times she was attacked that first year. Fortunately
there came a point in which she apparently learned to "speak dog"
properly, and she hasn't had any problems since.
You don't mention how long you've had Gremlin, but there still may be hope
that her social skills will improve enough that other dogs won't see her
as a threat. Letting her spend time with a variety of dogs that you KNOW
are safe is the best way to do this... but please be very careful to keep
her away from dogs that might not be trustworthy, because she may well
become so fearful that she'll never get through this.
I hope that helps. Good luck.
Dianne
Holly Kruse
<a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>According to him, a runt of the litter is often the target of
>other aggressive dogs. He said other dogs are always able to pick up on
>the fact that a dog was a runt of the litter (that they have these
>physical/psychological characteristics throughout their life).
I'm a little late getting in on this, but I have to concur
with all those who say runt status wouldn't necessarily
have anything to do with this. I bred an Irish setter
litter last year in which there was one bona fide runt
(greatly undersized in proportion to the other 10 puppies,
obviously poorly positioned, and thus undernourished, in
the womb. Keep in mind that a puppy that weighs less than
its littermates is not necessarily a true "runt.") He didn't
want to nurse at first, but he wanted no part of being bottle-
fed Esbilac, so after that was attempted he dove in and nursed.
From that point on this tiny guy would just push his way past
his mammoth brothers and sisters to belly up to the bar, and
later, to get to the food pan. And none of them ever dared to
pick on the mighty little Mookie: he was a force unto himself,
despite being born with a kinked tail, overshot bite, and
very loud (by eventually found to be totally benign by
cardiologists at Penn) heart murmur.
Mookie has never attained the size of his other brothers,
or many of his sisters... I somehow just couldn't place the
little guy, so he resides here with his mother and sister,
and he's about 1/2 inch shorter than either of them. But
no dogs have ever tried to pick on them, nor does he seem
to intimidate other dogs. In fact, he seems to have pretty
highly developed social skills, which I attribute to both
his socialization and the dogs behind him in his pedigree.
I don't think the fact that he was a true runt has anything
to do with it, one way or the other.
Interestingly, I did have a much beloved Irish setter who
never growled during the 14 years of his life, and who faced
everyone, everydog, and every situation with a smile and a
wag... and who a fairly large number of other dogs seemed
to hate. This dog (Tristan) was never aggressively friendly
to other dogs, never got in their faces, but many of them
would just look at him and growl. And when attacked, he'd
never fight back, nor would he act particularly upset (although
he did have a healthy terror of little Cali, the terrier
mix with whom he cohabited for many years, and would give
her a wide berth). I think he was just a very confident,
happy dog, and some dogs viewed his whole affect as rather
dominant and threatening. And Tristan was certainly no runt
at birth.
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Holly Kruse
Listowner, Setters-L & IrishSetterTalk
hkr...@couriernet.infi.net
hckr...@athena.louisville.edu
Holly Kruse
>very loud (by eventually found to be totally benign by
>cardiologists at Penn) heart murmur.
That should be "BUT eventually found"
>and he's about 1/2 inch shorter than either of them. But
>no dogs have ever tried to pick on them,
And this should be "to pick on HIM"
Late night posting... always a mistake! :-)
Holly
Ludwig Smith
>Folks help me out here. Wouldn't a dog that shows aggression towards another
>dog normally go after the neck, back, legs and/or tail? What is this
>fixation for this dog's tummy? Not having seen too many dog fights, is this
>normal? Just curious. Thanks.
A bite or gash on the stomach/sides are common if the dog is surprised
by a rush and rolled or bowled over or if the dog flops over itself in
submission - the stomach is then exposed.
In an all out fight, dogs will bite wherever they can.
Ludwig Smith
Dog FAQS
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
tmpnsan
<q=ciOBGRX2WIFVy...@4ax.com>:
>On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 23:44:38 GMT, tmpnsan <nos...@primary.net> wrote:
>
>>Folks help me out here. Wouldn't a dog that shows aggression towards
another
>>dog normally go after the neck, back, legs and/or tail? What is this
>>fixation for this dog's tummy? Not having seen too many dog fights, is
this
>>normal? Just curious. Thanks.
>
>A bite or gash on the stomach/sides are common if the dog is surprised
>by a rush and rolled or bowled over or if the dog flops over itself in
>submission - the stomach is then exposed.
>
>In an all out fight, dogs will bite wherever they can.
Thanks for the response Ludwig. I guess it just appears odd to me because
I've never seen it. Each time I've seen dogs fight wherein one dog is on its
back, the one on top would go for the throat. I've just never seen a dog go
for the stomach but can understand they will bite "wherever they can".
DW
say that 9 of 10 aren't fights but a beating.
dw
tmpnsan wrote:
> snip