Dog is choking himself to death...
Alison
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vTUc8.72106$YA2.9...@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
>
> NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT WITHOUT THE
BATTLE.
>
> Got it this time ?
>
> Patch
>
I didn't quite catch that. Could you say it again:)?
Alison
Alison
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:h3Sc8.105930$QG.24...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> IMHO, many cases of pulling comes from dogs that don't get enough
exercise.
> It's a vicious cycle: the dog pulls, the owner doesn't like that and walks
> it less, the dog pulls like a nut because he has even more pent up energy,
> on and on. I've dog sat a number of pullers. I'm a firm believer in a
good
> dog is a tired dog. The dogs I take care of get lots of walks and I find
> that by the end of my petsitting most pulling problems are gone (for me at
> least, this doesn't transfer to the owners.).
>
> Chris and her polite smoothies,
> Zeffie & Pablo
>
Hi Chris,
Very true and that's the same with recall. Dogs that get little
off -leash exercise are reluctant to come when called ,so they get even less
off-leash time It's Catch 22.
Alison
Melinda Shore
Jeff Harper <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote:
>Start putting a harness on him for the walks, pronto. (Or an alternative if
>you have someone experienced to teach you proper use.)
Boy, I just disagree with the harness suggestion. I agree
about the need to get pressure off the throat, but I think
that allowing the dog to drag the human across three
counties, which the harness will facilitate (particularly if
the dog is ignoring the person) is probably not a great
idea.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Lushious Lugs
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a52rgn$if9$1...@panix2.panix.com...
I like the idea of a harness rather than a collar, but I think it might
confuse my girl at her age so I haven't switched her over ~ but I think
training the dog to walk nicely on or off any lead is the priority... maybe
a harness & a halti/head collar until he has learnt some manners.
--
See my dog Stone ~ July 5th on the birthday calendar.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
Jerry Howe
news:20020220191749...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> Gentle leader is my vote.
> People should be allowed to fail, but do not protect the lazy or
incompetent;
> Above all, people should be allowed to succeed and be rewarded for meeting
or
> exceeding the terms of the contract.
> Monty Roberts, The Man Who Listens to Horses
Hello James,
The main problem our OP is having is in his hands, not in his dog. There's
two problems here. One, the OP never did the "join up" exercise as taught in
the Family Leadership Exercise taught in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End
Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com, so the dog has no desire to pay attention to
his "handler" and two, the handler doesn't understand the mechanism of
positive thigmotaxis, the opposition reflex.
Once they figger out these simple facts, they won't have MOST of their
behavior problems.
> <"Terri"@cyberhighway
> > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> > Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> > come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
> Robert Crim writes:
> I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
> I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
> of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
> posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
> child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for
> putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
> the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
> The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
> idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
> we would not have had to hold the head of a really
> magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
> needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
> his last gasp.
> To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
> good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
> behind fake names are more honest than people that use
> their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
> breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
> j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
> lived by their craft for decades.
> "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
> level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
> people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to
> just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
> act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> > And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> > admit to buying and having success with his little black
> > box.
> I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
> it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
> would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> > Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> > Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> > him! LOL!
> I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
> Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
> As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
> >Terri
> Yes it was, and that is sad.
> Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box
> first?)
THAT'S HOWE COME . FIGGER IT OUT. j;~)
Oh, hey? Lookey here whot I found:
"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or beat a dog,
or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by
making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl who continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained
require much more frequent and heavy application of
pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the
job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it
yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress
to striking them more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even
the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping
theear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting
your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it
catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is
digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any
ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,
and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it,
chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting
tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty
dahl.
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine.
> > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > want to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
for her and her family.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
(an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
or using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Jerry Howe
"James D. Lilly" <fuzzy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020220191749...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> Gentle leader is my vote.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> People should be allowed to fail, but do not protect the lazy or
incompetent;
> Above all, people should be allowed to succeed and be rewarded for meeting
or
> exceeding the terms of the contract.
> Monty Roberts, The Man Who Listens to Horses
P.S. Monty Roberts is quite DESPISED here amongst our dog lovers who PREFER
to jerk and choke and shock and hang and kill dogs. Jerry.
Jerry Howe
There's nothing wrong with the GL. In fact, I was onto that before the first
head halter ever came out. HOWEver, the problem is not the "tools," it's the
HANDS... as taught in the Hot And Cold Exercise in your FREE copy of my FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com
"Jenn" <pywh...@powersurfEr.com> wrote in message
news:ez%c8.80510$A44.4...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
> "James D. Lilly" <fuzzy...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020220191749...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> > Gentle leader is my vote.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > People should be allowed to fail, but do not protect the lazy or
> incompetent;
> > Above all, people should be allowed to succeed and be rewarded for
meeting
> or
> > exceeding the terms of the contract.
> > Monty Roberts, The Man Who Listens to Horses
>
> Dear James,
>
> Got something against GL's?
>
> Jenn
>
>
Jerry Howe
not the dog. Our "experts" training methods are the cause of most behavior
problems, and THAT'S HOWE COME they tell you to killfile Jerry, cause
Jerry's INFORMATION PROVES IT.
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a52pqe$480bn$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
Jerry Howe
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a52pc8$49c1r$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
Jerry Howe
"Helle Haugenes" <news...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:fpf87uo1j4brkobgj...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:51:26 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>
> wrote:
> OP wrote:
> >> > I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever
> >> > I take him out for a walk. He's practically dragging me all
> >> > over the place, madly pulling on his leash like his life
> >> > depended on it. That doesn't sound so unusual... except
> >> > this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death
> >> > because he pulls so damn hard.
> [..]
> >A harness evenly distributes his weight so he can pull harder.
> Sounds to me like this dog already pulls as hard as he can.
You're a JOKE, helle. You're about as incompetent as a trainer could be,
without HURTING dogs like janet boss and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn and sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon or our professor
scruff shake and scream NO into its face dermer or professora 'chin chuck
absolutely doesn't mean slap the dog' gingold or lying frosty dahl beatin
dogs with sticks and pinching their ears into spikes on their collars.
> I can't see how wearing a harness will make him pull any harder than
described by the OP,
You meant to say you don't see HOWE wearing a harness will make him pull
LESS. Well,
that's EZ to explain, IF you understand the NATURE of the BEAST. You don't,
helle. You
understand BRIBES and FORCE, not training.
> but I *can* see how it will keep him from hurting his neck and throat.
BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOWE IT BREAKS PULLING.
> I am using harnesses on both my dogs, one (40 pounds) hardly ever
> pulls and the other (30 pounds) pulls quite a bit still, equally hard
> whether he's wearing a harness or a collar.
Because you MISHANDLE the lead, pulling, and triggering positive
thUgmotaxis.
> He's learning to walk nicely, but forgets himself when he's eager to get
somewhere.
You're bullshitttin yourself, helle. Don't bullshit us, cause I'll blow your
cover.
> He's still just a puppy.
BUNK.
> I was using a collar in the beginning, but decided to get a harness
because
> I don't want him to injure himself while he's learning not to pull.
WHOA!!! You're bullshittin us again, helle. You're say you didn't want him
to
hurt himself while LEARNING not to pull? Pulling is TRIGGERED by INEFFECTIVE
HANDLING, helle. My student's dogs learn not to pull in under five minutes.
> Also, about better control with a collar than a harness;
THAT'S THE PROBLEM, you nit wit. You're FORCING CONTROL, and compelling
the dog OUT of control, through triggering the opposition refelx...positive
thUgmotaxis.
And you're too stupid to recognize that, cause it doesn't FEEL right not
FORCING control,
helle.
> I find this to be untrue.
That's cause as a dog trainer, you're INCOMPETENT, helle.
> The only times the collar is better is when we are
> standing close to people he wants to greet.
You're blowing smoke up your own arse, helle. Don't send it our way.
> Otherwise I feel in much better control him with the harness.
FEEL. You FEEL. You're choking your dog, and FEEL comfortable, but don't
FEEL comfortable when you're not forcing control.
> Another good thing is that the harness is much better when it comes to
> getting the leash between the legs and under the belly,
The goddamned leash isn't supposed to get beneath the dog if you're
HANDLING it properly... as taught in your FREE copy of my FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com
> which happened a lot with the collar.
Because you mishandle the lead.
> Even my neighbor with a husky and a malamute walks both his dogs with
> harnesses on and he's controlling them just fine (just in case the
> weight issue is brought up).
Don't talk to us about weight, it's IRRELEVANT. A Chihuahua handles and
trains exactly the same as a Great Dane.
> > [..] DEFINITELY would invest in training!
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Yes, training the dog not to pull is a very good idea :-)
BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Helle
Get the helle outta here you incompetent double talker. Jerry.
> Helle Haugenes
> http://www.pobox.com/~newshelle
Jerry Howe
"Cindy" <tit...@io.com> wrote in message
news:aHXc8.129878$Re2.10...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> Put a harness on the dog, and the choking point will no longer limit his
pulling.
You are a SADIST, sindy. You're a dog abuser. You HURT dogs cause you
don't know HOWE to handle and train them. You hurt and kill dogs, sindy.
> He'll be able to maximize the effectiveness of his
> pulling by putting his entire weight -
INDEED he would, EXCEPT for the fact that pulling on the collar
will TRIGGER positive thigmotaxis, and compell the dog to pull,
which is HOWE COME you jerk and choke and pull... to TEACH the
dog not to pull and jerk YOU, and not choke ITself.
> - his chest can take more than his throat -- into the harness.
The IDEA is, to not PULL and not JERK and not CHOKE the dog,
allowing him to calm down and listen to you and follow you, cause
you're NOT choking and jerking and pulling him. That's HOWE
COME you jerk and choke and beat and shock your dogs, to
demonstrate acceptable behavior, ISN'T it?
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! You demonstrate EXACTLY what
you're trying to NOT teach. SomeHOWE, that doesn't make sense at
any level, sindy SADIST.
> By way of example, imagine that you're trying to drag some furniture
> away from the wall. If your carpet is a little slippery, you may find
> you can't move it even hauling with all your strength. But if you brace
> your feet against the wall, suddenly you can move it out. You're using
> the same amt of strength either way, but in the latter case you can
> make more effective use of it.
The IDEA is to NOT FORCE, cause force CAUSES PULLING.
> In this case I'd recommend either a pinch collar or a halter style collar.
So you can HURT and INTIMIDATE the dog to want to do everything you ask...
> For the latter, since the potential for injury is high,
You HURT and KILL dogs, sindy. Don't tell us about injury.
> I would introduce it to him slowly so that he is familiar with how
> it will control his head in a much different way.
The halter doesn't work for you, does it sindy. It won't work for you cause
all you understand is FORCE, and it don't matter HOWE you FORCE or
INTIMIDATE, it's all the same at some level, SADIST.
> --CIndy
Tell us about kneeing the dog in the chest and throwing IT down by ITS ears
and growling into its throat to make your dog respect you, sindy. Tell us
HOWE to break a dog of digging holes by shoving his head under water
you've filled into a hole he's dug? Tell us about your forced fetch, sindy
SADIST?
Here's some excerpts from our force fetch page on k9web your pal
cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon threatened to sue us
for infringement for discussing. I'm looking forward to having her
demonstrate these advanced techniques in front of a criminal judge
and jury for felony animal abuse.
"Another excellent and more recent resource is the Tritronics Retrieving
Manual Retriever Training by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice
Woodyard, which despite its association with the Tritronics
electronic collars has many excellent descriptions of training
techniques that do not use the collar, including an overview of what
they also term the "conditioned retrieve." (This is not a promotion or
condemnation of electronic collars; merely a note that the Retriever
Training book is useful for the person without an electronic collar
as well.)
Our pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn stutters:
"When have I ever said anything about using a prong collar, or
any collar correction at all, to make dogs friendly to house cats?
Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
When Jerry tells you we're dealing with predominantly vicious, lying,
dog abusing Thugs who'll do and say anything to defend their alleged
right to HURT dogs to train them, Jerry's got proof.
All you got to do is read the quotes I post, and that's the end of the
story. That's why our lying, dog abusing Thugs tell you to killfile me,
because they have no defense for the charges I level at them, backed
up with their own written lies as evidence of the conspiracy they've
been perpetuating to defend hurting dogs to train them, as they LIKE.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't forget
to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a
choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be
used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the
owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock,
sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with
electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was
being used."
"Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:<SlDg7.10491$V7.3...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>...
> You jerk and choke dogs on pronged spiked pinch choke collars to
> make them friendly with their house kats, just like lying "I LOVE
> KOEHLER" lynn does.
What are you talking about, you lying sack of dung?
You keep talking about some photo on "my" website related to dogs
and cats. I don't have a clue where you dreamt that up. There IS
an article about introducing dogs to cats at www.sfgsrescue.org -
hardly my website - but there are no photos with humans at that site.
And the article is clearly attributed to the author, who isn't me.
When have I ever said anything about using a prong collar, or any
collar correction at all, to make dogs friendly to house cats?
Don't bother. The answer is never.
And I did say "I love Koehler", in reference to the passage he wrote
about the damage foggy-headed trainers like you do. Specifically.
Lynn K.
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkos...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
View complete thread (6 articles)
Date: 1999/11/20
ging...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
We rely on a dog's normal pack instinct and instinct to possess. The
goal is to strengthen those responses to the cat, to the point where
they outweigh prey drive behavior. It nearly always works, and you
won't lose a cat or hurt one of your dogs in the process. The dogs
aren't coerced into accepting the cats, but given the opportunity to
recognize individuals as part of their environment, rather than prey, by
taking advantage of natural pack and possessive behaviors.
When someone asks me if one of our dogs likes cats, my first
thought is, "yes, for breakfast, lunch and dinner and a midnight snack".
Even dogs who have lived in a home with cats are
unpredictable in a new home setting for several reasons: cats all
react differently to dogs, a dog may have felt a sense of possession
of a specific cat (or any other pet) in its previous home, or the dog
may be taking its cue from an alpha (who "possesses" the cat).
A dog's ability to live with a specific cat does not mean that it is
"good" with all cats. It may mean that the dog has no prey drive, but
it could also mean that the dog "possessed" a specific cat, or lived
where an alpha possessed a specific cat(s). A dog can live with
cat(s) while still maintaining prey drive around all other cats; this is
because the dog considers the cat a possession or a packmate, not prey.
It doesn't lump all cats into one basket and treat them all alike.
Pack hassling over position can even spill over into fights over (or
attacks upon) the "possession" (i.e. take-away).
There's some basic principles in order for a dog and cat (or bunny or
bird or whatever) to be able to live together:
1) There are variances by breed that must be considered. A German
Shepherd Dog's instinct to possess overrides its prey drive. But this
is not true for some other breeds such as terriers, sighthounds and
Ridgebacks. There are limits to what can be achieved, but it should
work with your Bichon-mix.
2) A dog will accept a cat (or other animal) either as a possession or
a pack mate if opportunity for interaction is given where the dog
cannot see the cat as prey.
3) The dog must accept its owner as "alpha" and take its cue on how
to treat the cat(s) from the owner. The owner, however, should not
be perceived as "possessing" the cat.
The plan that follows will not to stop the dog from chasing all cats.
It works to establish a sense of "pack" and possession of the cat in
the dog's mind The steps below allow the dog and cat to interact in
a controlled manner in order to establish a sense of possession in the
dog while keeping the cat safe while this process is underway. You
don't want to endanger your boyfriend's cats in any way in this
process.
Steps:
All these steps are important. It's easier it's to introduce a dog to a
cat who has never been chased by a dog because the cat will interact
with the dog sooner, but this works for existing situations
once the cat realizes it's safe. Some cats are easier to work with than
others. It is a fine line to tread because you do not want the dog to
believe that its owner is possessing the cat - the dog must feel that
he or she possesses the cat. Otherwise, the dog can see the cat as
something to try to steal away from its owner, especially if there is
any question of the owner being the pack "alpha".
During the learning process, the dog must never be allowed to chase
the cat(s) or to play games that put it in prey drive while the cat is
present. If this isn't done, the process will not work. Work with one
dog at a time if possible.
1) The owner of the dog must become the alpha dog in the
household. The dog has to realize that it is not alpha and must take
its cues from the human pack members as to who it accepts. The
owner needs to have established a level of control.
2) When the dog is introduced to the household, the cats are shut
away in another room. This is also true if you are introducing a cat
into a household with dogs. There are no exceptions at all.
Especially don't carry a cat in your arms if a dog is loose. This can
be dangerous for cat, dog and human. A child should never ever
carry a cat or small animal in its arms around a loose dog.
3) When the cats are allowed out freely to roam without human
supervision, the dog must be outside or where it cannot see the cat.
It cannot be inside in a crate where it can see and/or bark or lunge at
the cat without correction. This is vital and the entire process will
not work if this isn't done properly.
4) Shut the dog in its crate and allow the cat(s) out hopefully to walk
past the dog crate. If the dog barks or lunges within the crate, the
dog is verbally corrected. Make sure that the cats are in another
room behind a closed door before letting the dog have its time out of
the crate. I'm not talking about keeping the dog in the crate all the
time, it's more keeping the cats in another room most of the time.
The dog is crated while the cats are out, and then let out of the crate
for most of the time. This may take several days or weeks to
accomplish. It depends on how quickly the cat comes around to the
dog's crate area (which should be with the family).
5) Do not comfort, pet or fuss over the cats where the dog can see it
from his crate. Especially don't do this after the dog has barked or
lunged at the cat. Correct only the dog. This is because you do not
want the dog to see the cat as your possession.
6) Accustom the dog to a muzzle while it is hanging out in its crate.
It will be muzzled when it goes to the vet or is groomed (even if we
don't see it, it happens), so this way the dog is used to a muzzle.
Leave it on for 10 - 15 minutes at a time if it isn't hot. If it's
hot, the dog must not be muzzled because it can't pant. The muzzle
is only a temporary tool. But the muzzle must be used for the cat's
sake.
7) After 10-14 days where the dog does not bark or lunge at the cat
and the cat is comfortable walking around the crate, it's show time!
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't forget
to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a
choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Have
the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the
leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it
wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an
aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both
your voice and the collar. This is important - the correction must
be physically very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need to
be corrected at all).
Do not correct the dog for sniffing at the cat. Sniffing is very good
and is to be encouraged. Attention barking is also okay. The dog
will feel any nervousness or tension of the owner via the leash and
feed off of it, so it's important to be calm. That's also why the
muzzle
is on the dog - the owner knows the cat is safe no matter what. Do
this for about 5-10 minutes at first, then put the dog or cat away. Try
to be observant to end the session while both dog and cat are doing
well. You can spin out the time until it's an hour or so.
9) Each time the dog first sees the cat, it gets a food treat. Cat = a
cookie. If the dog is showing too much interest in the cat (like
scenting for it), distract the dog by giving it something else to do,
like a sit or heel with praise for doing what you've told it to do
rather than automatically giving it a cookie.
You can't reward the dog for not chasing the cat but you can reward it
for doing something you've asked of it.
10) There is no playing ball, running or chasing about the house,
either by dogs, cats or humans while the dog and cat are out
together. This is because care needs to be taken to see that the dog
doesn't go into prey drive. This needs to continue throughout this
entire process.
11) Supervise the interaction and after 7-10 days where the dog has
not had to be corrected, the prong and leash control can be
eliminated. Even if you never had to correct the dog, it's important to
wait 7-10 days. Leave on the muzzle. The dog and cat can not be
left unsupervised. If the dog chases the cat during this period, it's
back to item #7.
12) After about four-six weeks where the owner has not observed any
prey drive in the dog towards its cat, it is time to do without the
muzzle. Interaction should still be supervised and the two animals
never left alone unless there is a place for the cat to go to safety.
If you've got a dog who is possessive about food, obviously you don't
let the cat near when the dog is eating. Since cat food is very
unhealthy for dogs, the cat's food should not be where the dog can reach
it.
Some caveats:
If there's multiple dogs in the household, there can be discord over
possession. The cat can be seen as an object to be taken away. This is
also true if the dog perceives the cat to be the possession of
the owner.
There are some harder cases, and then it's a matter of the
commitment level of the owner to making the dog accept the cat.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be
used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the
owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock,
sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with
electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was
being used. This type of training will also tend to result in a dog
that
does not chase cats at all because it is not building on the pack and
possession instinct aspects of behavior.
A dog who chases cats endangers both the cat and itself. A cat
scratch in a dog's eye can cause infection, cataracts, glaucoma, loss
of sight or even loss of an eye. This was the case with a dog who
would chase any cat other than her own. Left unsupervised, she chased
and cornered a kennel cat. The cat was just fine (thank
goodness) but the dog nearly lost an eye from a deep cat scratch.
This dog has since been trained using electronics to do a sit when
she sees any cat. She associates cats with an electronic correction
and has learned to avoid the correction by performing her sit. It took
about two or so weeks to train and proof her. She doesn't do the sit
automatically when she sees her own cats, which is what leads me to
think that she does not lump all cats into one mental basket, and is
consistent with the pack/possession drive theory. She also does the
sit thing when she sees squirrels on walks ... kind of interesting. My
theory is that she has generalized the aversion to strong prey drive,
rather than cats as the specific object of that prey drive.
Lynn K.
THE FORCE FETCH
Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I
repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out,
someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for
obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed
avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn off"
a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete
control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does
require a more astute sense of timing than some other training
methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety of
reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it's
easily done with a minimum of fuss.
Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and
leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth
as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog's
collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch
the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever
you want) Watch his mouth closely -- the moment he opens his
mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar, and
PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session.
When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the
next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step
is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch) necessary
to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that
getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear
pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That's his second
milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times this
session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5
minutes or so each. That's still true.
Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it.
Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It's not enough
for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to
getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of limply
reaches over and gets it, that's not what you want. If you pinch him
but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that's not what
you want either. We're back to the visualization. What do you want
him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about
anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you feel
him pulling out of it to get that. That's his commitment. You want to
say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the
dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him
when he's made a good commitment -- this will help shape a speedy
response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an
experienced person around when you are doing this! It can
be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually
sitting there with a dog in your hands.
About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant
he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have
problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough,
or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar may be
needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are
screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by
screaming, they've learned the avoidance technique just fine -- but
not with the behavior you had in mind!
Don't let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed
and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a
heap. Don't let them do that, that's why your hand is in the collar.
Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your
dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch.
You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that
getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance.
Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell
in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back
down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel
position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold the
dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull him
back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will do him
good later.
The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for
him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be
difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them, with
your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may refuse --
keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he really
doesn't seem to understand this, then break this down into an
intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way
between the ground and his mouth.
Once he's picked the dumbbell off the ground, that's a major
milestone and you are just about home free.
As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in
front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar
before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell
from this point on, you will get control of him (put him in a sit with
a firm hold on his collar) and pinch him back to the dumbbell -- he
can pick it up now so there is no need for you to put it in his mouth
any more. HE is the one responsible for getting it.
When he is reliably picking up the dumbbell a few feet from you,
then you can stop using the pinch at the beginning of the exercise.
You will instead reserve it for when he drops the dumbbell or refuses
to pick it up, etc. So for example, you might go out, place the
dumbbell 6 feet away, put the long lead on him, tell him to take
it. Let's say he hesitates and doesn't go out. Then you pinch, force
him to commit, send him to the dumbbell. Let's say he goes and gets
it, but starts playing with it. Pull him in, and if he hasn't already
dropped the dumbbell, take it out of his mouth, put it back where it
was, and pinch him to it.
There is one last problem you need to watch for. Many dogs,
especially retrievers, will start pouncing on the dumbbell once they
are able to run out a few steps to it before picking it up. So transition
to this point with a long cotton lead about 20-30 feet long. With this
you can spin him round the moment he scoops up the dumbbell,
teaching him that he cannot play with it. If your dog drops the
dumbbell, use the lead to pull him back to you (do not let him try to
pick it up), and pinch him back to it. the basic rule of thumb is that
if he drops it, he will be pinched back to it regardless.
Thoughts to Consider
Force fetching is never completely done, per se (as with any
exercise taught to a dog). You may need to do a refresher course
when it's something new to pick up, or if it's something disgusting
(like a very dead bird) to pick up. He may also start to get lazy,
you need to keep an eye on him. You may also realize you omitted some
step in training him that shows up later so you will have to go back
and fix it.
But you should also take care to make sure he doesn't forget any of
these hard-earned lessons! Make him carry things for you. He can
carry his own ball out to the park. He can carry his own utility
articles to the ring. He can help you carry a light bag of groceries
into the house. He can help you carry firewood. They will just love
this, and it's a good way to keep the talents honed. Use it!"
> Alison
That ought to be enough to chew on, but there's so much MOORE to appreciate
about our dogs and their behavior:
The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York: Howell Book
Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more
than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic
actions could cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and
fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth
have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground. As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
the dog is suspended in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover his footing while he still had
the strength to renew the attack would be cruelty. The only justifiable
course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor
inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to
the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps,
vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog
lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it
alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types of
protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your
efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these extreme problems. Nearly
always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by
avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds
of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under
correction.
When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was
incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists,
breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins
and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of the
greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be
demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and
certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in
resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that
situation. (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much
easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master."
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book
House, 1996 William Koehler
"Housebreaking problems":
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Some of the new "breaking scents" on the market can
aid in your house-breaking program. One type
discourages the dog from even visiting an
area. Another encourages him to relieve himself in the
area where it is sprinkled. Your pet shop should be
able to supply further information on the brands available in your
district.
Be fair to your dog in what and when you feed him and
be consistent in your efforts to housebreak him, and
you'll soon accomplish the job.
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING,
SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain
you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were
against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet
them, so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in
his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more
emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one
that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from
a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless you
supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he
thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at
the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs
with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As
was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not
lessen the dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more
discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because
you're gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical
for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater
to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed
the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little
ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort
doesn't turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a
stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will
also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog
drags it around when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a
man's leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular
dog a good tanning.
Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember,
you're dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and
neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but
where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If
you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful
not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as
sharp as yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so
you can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally
impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of
"out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you've
conveniently placed, and descend on him. He'll have no chance to
dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are
raised off the floor or, if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him
up with a hitch on something. While he's held in close, lay the
strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on
a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After
fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end
up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've
always felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they
"cry out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your
dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range
bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat
the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a
full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he
gets away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble
on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just
a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you
have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe
his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be
watching and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the
family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a
block or two from your house so you can come back and park within
earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you've
returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool
the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving
off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has
reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when
you're not around, so give the above method an honest try before
you presume your dog requires a more severe correction."
Jerry Howe
melinda... Bye!
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a52rgn$if9$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Jerry Howe
"Lushious Lugs" <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a52u29$dt2$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sionnach
"Patch wrote:
of control.
>
> Yawn.
> NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT WITHOUT THE
BATTLE.
Yawn. Why don't you go to California and try telling the people grieving
for Diana Whipple that?
shelly
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:a531ov$44249$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
yaknow, i thought the same thing last night as i was watching the news.
they had still photos of the dogs wearing harnesses. were they wearing
those harnesses when they attacked Diana Whipple? if so, a couple of
prong collars might have saved her life.
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
Jeff Harper
| >Start putting a harness on him for the walks, pronto. (Or an alternative
if
| >you have someone experienced to teach you proper use.)
|
| Boy, I just disagree with the harness suggestion. I agree
| about the need to get pressure off the throat, but I think
| that allowing the dog to drag the human across three
| counties, which the harness will facilitate (particularly if
| the dog is ignoring the person) is probably not a great
| idea.
Spoken like the owner of dogs bred to pull humans across counties :)
Jeff
Jeff Harper
jeff#doplay.com
Melinda Shore
Jeff Harper <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote:
>Spoken like the owner of dogs bred to pull humans across counties :)
Throw an 'r' into that last word ("crounties? what are
crounties?").
Alison
Meaning what exactly?
Alison
>
>
Alison
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:a532f2$4799c$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
>
> >
> yaknow, i thought the same thing last night as i was watching the news.
> they had still photos of the dogs wearing harnesses. were they wearing
> those harnesses when they attacked Diana Whipple? if so, a couple of
> prong collars might have saved her life.
>
> --
> shelly and elliott & harriet
Hi shelly,
There's lots of articles on CNN about it.
I found this article about it.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0FRO/4_134/79573244/p1/article.jhtml?term=
Diane+Whipple
It said: Early this year, 33-year-old Diane Whipple was returning to her
apartment in San Francisco after grocery shopping. In her sixth-floor
hallway, she had the misfortune to encounter Marjorie Knoller, who was
trying to shepherd two 120-pound presa canario dogs back into the apartment
she shared with her husband, Robert Noel.etc :
I've read different things. That the owner was coming back from walking
the dogs and also that she opened the door of her appartment to see if her
husband was coming.
As to whether prongs would have stopped the attack , you could also say
that if they had been wearing muzzles she wouldn't have died either. Who
knows?
Alison
>
>
Melinda Shore
Alison <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> As to whether prongs would have stopped the attack , you could also say
>that if they had been wearing muzzles she wouldn't have died either. Who
>knows?
Clearly nobody does, but I think this example has been
offered up as an illustration that perhaps the suggestion
that merely slapping a harness on a dog will give you better
control isn't a very good one.
A lot of people do have good success with harnesses, but
those are people whose dogs are better-trained to start
with. The original poster is dog-sitting - she doesn't own
the dog and she has a problem she needs to fix right now.
Using a harness will get the pressure off the dog's throat,
but by more broadly distributing the pull and by moving the
center of effort lower to the ground and closer to the dog's
body a harness enhances a dog's ability to pull and is going
to tend to lessen the amount of control someone has while
walking an untrained dog.
Patch
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a52pc8$49c1r$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
>
<blush>
Sorry `bout that Ali, it just seems some need extra volume to get through to
them <g>
Patch
Patch
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:a532f2$4799c$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
>
> news:a531ov$44249$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "Patch wrote:
> > of control.
> > >
> > > Yawn.
> > > NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT WITHOUT THE
> > BATTLE.
> >
> > Yawn. Why don't you go to California and try telling the people
> grieving
> > for Diana Whipple that?
>
> yaknow, i thought the same thing last night as i was watching the news.
> they had still photos of the dogs wearing harnesses. were they wearing
> those harnesses when they attacked Diana Whipple?
Who knows, therefore its a wreckless speculation by the previous poster.
if so, a couple of
> prong collars might have saved her life.
More likely they`d have taken someone else down sooner IMO.
Patch
Patch
> In article <a536mv$48u86$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de>,
> Alison <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > As to whether prongs would have stopped the attack , you could also say
> >that if they had been wearing muzzles she wouldn't have died either. Who
> >knows?
>
> Clearly nobody does, but I think this example has been
> offered up as an illustration that perhaps the suggestion
> that merely slapping a harness on a dog will give you better
> control isn't a very good one.
No it isnt. No one knows if they were wearing harnesses or not at the time
so its an invalid claim. Had those dogs had good handlers from the start, no
one would have died. Dont try skipping that teeny little point....
Patch
Patch
> In article <a524do$426lp$1...@ID-102001.news.dfncis.de>,
> Jeff Harper <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote:
> >Start putting a harness on him for the walks, pronto. (Or an alternative
if
> >you have someone experienced to teach you proper use.)
>
> Boy, I just disagree with the harness suggestion.
Becuase you dont understand how it works.
I agree
> about the need to get pressure off the throat, but I think
> that allowing the dog to drag the human across three
> counties, which the harness will facilitate (particularly if
> the dog is ignoring the person) is probably not a great
> idea.
Your comment above proves you really are totally clueless about
walking/training a dog in a suitable harness.
Patch
Patch
> I like the idea of a harness rather than a collar, but I think it might
> confuse my girl at her age so I haven't switched her over ~ but I think
> training the dog to walk nicely on or off any lead is the priority...
maybe
> a harness & a halti/head collar until he has learnt some manners.
Age wont matter at all, so don't worry on that. All mine came to me as
adults with issues, and none had any problems with their harnesses from the
first moment they wore them.
Where abouts [ roughly ] are you in UK ?
Patch
Patch
> In article <a534f3$4bkq7$1...@ID-102001.news.dfncis.de>,
> Jeff Harper <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote:
> >Spoken like the owner of dogs bred to pull humans across counties :)
>
> Throw an 'r' into that last word ("crounties? what are
> crounties?").
???
Patch
Jerry Howe
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:a531ov$44249$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> "Patch wrote: of control.
> > Yawn.
> > NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT WITHOUT > > THE
BATTLE.
Yes, that's correct.
> Yawn. Why don't you go to California and try telling the people grieving
> for Diana Whipple that?
That's exactly what I've been trying to do. I figure they'll blow the case
and
maybe I'll have a shot at it in the appeal, but for now it seems they've got
all
the "expert" testimony they need, and they'll most likely PROVE my case in
this matter.
The problem we're talking about is the opposition reflex. Pulling the dog or
restraining the dog causes the dog to pull MOORE, it's called positive
thigmotaxis.
It's a scientific fact, and it proves you and your vicious lying dog abusing
Thug pals with your pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars and
alphalpha roll and growl into the throat and bite on the ears to teach
HEELING, DEAD WRONG.
And I'll prove it in court. Jerry.
Jerry Howe
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:a532f2$4799c$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
> "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:a531ov$44249$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> > "Patch wrote:
> > of control.
> > > Yawn.
> > > NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT
> > > WITHOUT THE BATTLE.
> > Yawn. Why don't you go to California and try telling the people
> > grieving for Diana Whipple that?
> yaknow, i thought the same thing last night
Was you now? For starters, you're a proven liar and dog abuser.
> as i was watching the news.
You have no credibility here cause you are a proven liar. Dog abusers
are welcome, this is where they learn NOT to abuse dogs no MOORE.
> they had still photos of the dogs wearing harnesses.
That was a different day.
> were they wearing those harnesses when they attacked Diana Whipple?
No. And they wouldn't have attacked had the handler not tried to RESTRAIN
the dog, triggering positive thigmotaxis, which locks the dog onto the
initial
aggressive though he had... a self defeating effort, trying to force
restraint over
a dog that's as big as you are. Think physics. And while you're at it, look
up
thigmotaxis in a fancy dictionary or something like your FREE copy of my
FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com
> if so, a couple of prong collars might have saved her life.
No. Use of pain and fear would make the dog moore aggressive, not less.
The difference between forcing control over the dog walking down
the street Vs when he's being aggressive, is obvious. It's EZ for our Thugs
to force control with their pronged spiked pinch choke collars to make
them walk nicely at their sides while being CHOKED. But when something
really stimulating comes up, the pain and fear are overriddend just like the
pain and fear overrides the opposition reflex the collar initally triggers,
JUST
BY PUTTING IT ON the dog.
> shelly and elliott & harriet
Proven liar and dog abuser. Jerry.
Jerry Howe
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a536mv$48u86$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
> As to whether prongs would have stopped the attack , you could also say
> that if they had been wearing muzzles she wouldn't have died either. Who
> knows?
I do. Patch does. Attempts to force control trigger positive thigmotaxis and
drive the dog out of control and into the behavior you're trying to prevent.
It's time our dog lovers figger this one out. You can't successfully train a
dog using a choke or shock device or bribes and confinement and pain
and fear.
> Alison
shelly
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> No one knows if they were wearing harnesses or not at the time
> so its an invalid claim.
i've been trying to find a picture, but my recollection is that in the
news footage of the dogs being taken from the building right after the
attack, the male dog was wearing a blue Y harness. so, no, it's not
reckless speculation on my part.
> Had those dogs had good handlers from the start, no
> one would have died.
possibly, but unlikely. considering who bred them and why they were
bred, the dogs, at least, didn't stand much of a chance. prong collars
would have given Diane Whipple better odds, though.
Jerry Howe
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a537ef$ojd$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <a536mv$48u86$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de>,
> Alison <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > As to whether prongs would have stopped the attack , you could also say
> >that if they had been wearing muzzles she wouldn't have died either. Who
> >knows?
> Clearly nobody does,
Competent trainers know, melinda. That's HOWE COME the killfile
Jerry campaign.
> but I think this example has been offered up as an illustration
Of a seemingly impossible worst case scenario to justify hurting dogs
to train them.
> that perhaps the suggestion that merely slapping a harness on a dog
> will give you better control isn't a very good one.
Of course not, unless you was INTELLIGENT enough to understand positive
thigmotaxis, the OPPOSITION REFLEX.
> A lot of people do have good success with harnesses,
It's not LUCK, it's cessation of the handler's pulling to force control.
> but those are people whose dogs are better-trained to start with.
That's just plain OPPOSITE of logic and scientific reasoning.
> The original poster is dog-sitting -
So that means she's not bright enough to outwit the cunning of the
domestic puppy dog? That means she shouldn't spend an hour or
two learning HOWE to properly handle and control the dog?
> she doesn't own the dog
So what??? She's got the dog, no reason not to train him to do everything
she asks, it'll only take about an hour.
> and she has a problem she needs to fix right now.
NO. She has some LEARNING to do FIRST, cause she don't know HOWE
to address the problem, and neither do you. That's HOWE COME you jerk
and choke and shock dogs, when you're not clicking and bribing and crating
them to control out of control behaviors.
> Using a harness will get the pressure off the dog's throat,
> but by more broadly distributing the pull
And LESSENING positive thigmotaxis, the OPPOSITION REFLEX,
which allows the dog to LISTEN and THINK about the handler,
instead of violently opposing the force of our "expert" dog trainers
who TEACH dogs to become aggressive through triggering thigmotaxis
and the allelomemetic behavior of THEIR VIOLENT ATTEMPTS to
force control.
> and by moving the center of effort lower to the ground and closer
> to the dog's body a harness enhances a dog's ability to pull
You mean without being strangled?
> and is going to tend to lessen the amount of control
By not strangling the dog and trigger him into fighting for survival?
> someone has while walking an untrained dog.
Yes, kind gets you all confused, don't it?
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
> If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
BWWWWAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!! Got me laughin in Spanish, and Jerry don't
even habla... hahahahahaaa. j;~)
Jerry Howe
Meaning she can't discuss dog training. Specifically positive thigmotaxis.
Alphalpha Roll, Growl Into Throat, Bite On Ears To Leash Train A Puller
Date: 2001-12-09 09:55:02 PST
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:9v03ff$bln4d$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> > That's why working with a good
> > trainer is so important - they help you gain those skills.
>
> Yup. It's immensely useful to have someone to yell at you when your
timing
> is off. <G>
Hello you lying sinofabitch,
"sionnach" <rhyf...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:9olvp5$e7sso$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> "roo" wrote:
Hello roo. Figures.
> > Hi Sionnach,
> > Would that work on a terrier though?
You think alphalpha rolling and biting dog's ears is TRAINING, roo?
> > Not sure this OP, if genuine, should try it!
Does our double talking roo think ANYBODY should pull that kind of
CRAP, roo?
Ever heard of allelomimetic behavior, roo? It means what you do to your
dog may be copied and played back at you. Would you like your dog to
throw you to the ground and gently NIP, not BITE you?
> No no no!!!!
Sounds like one of cindymooreon's or lying frosty dahl's dogs gettin
their ears pinched and twisted.
> Good catch. <G>
Catch? Yeah, real good posting, you lying dog abusing Thug.
> I was NOT suggesting the OP should try it-
Right. You was just makin idle dog training type talk in an aggressive
dog thread and recommended another abusive method that has worked for
you and a NEW, up and coming, soon to be fullfledged THUG, eh you lying
sackocrap?
I'll bet that preacher daddy of yours is REAL proud of his little girl,
talking dog training in the original GREEK. I've got lots of Greek for
dog abusing lying Thugs like you, you misreable s.o.b.
> absolutely not!- just relating to what NB wrote.
Yeah, darned good dog training in our book, eh roo? Kinda gets you hot
and bothered thinking of assaulting and dog and biting him. Makes me all
warm and fuzzy just thining of you Thugs gettin your cookies off abusing
critters and calling it training.
> No, it's not something that would be any help whatsoever in the
> OP's situation.
Well, we wouldn't have expected it would be such an excellent method for
training HEELING, would we? You shoulda passed it on to ron hardin when
he was choking the beejesus outta Annie for all those months he'd been
hurting her to make her heel. You mighta saved Annie and AWFUL lot of
PAIN had you taught him about doggy communication.
> It worked in the cases NB and I were talking about- because we
> were able to send *clear* messages to the dogs-
That message being "do as I say or I'll throw you to the ground and
attack you." That message only speaks clearly a couple of times, cause
once the dog expects you're gonna COMMUNICATE with him again like that,
he's gonna try to rip your goddamned throat out for ya. It's stupid
imbeciles like you who hurt and make dogs vicious, and then bring them
to someone like me and pay US to get hurt trying to undo the damage
you've done.
UNFORTUNATELY there aren't enough Jerry's out there to help rehabilitate
dogs bums like you've abused. Most of the rest end up DEAD at the hands
our our expert advisors like janet boss and john richardson and
cindymooreon and lying frosty dahl and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and
boob maida and mikey ball who'll all be quite happy to choke the dog
down on the table while their "TECHNICIAN" shoves a needle into his
heart because they can't find a vein while our "experts" are muscling
the dog down on the table to KILL HIM>
> but it's not something that I'd generally recommend,
Right, not GENERALLY. At least not again here. You're just full of crap,
aren't you.
> and it's absolutely contraindicated in a case where the dog is
> already afradi and being aggressive.
Tell that to job michael evans formerly of the monkeysofnotsonewskeete.
He NOW admits he R-E-G-R-E-T-S ever having suggested such and erroneous
method. He recognizes that it gets dogs DEAD and has strongly advised
against it.
> There's also the fact that in NB's case, he already had an
> excellent relationship with the dog,
Oh oh oh oh whell then by all means, just go ahead and freakin FREAKNIG
MOOTHERFERREAKING RUIN IT WHY DON'T CHA?
> just couldn't get it to understand the human messages,
U GOTTA BE KIDDIN? Couldn't get IT to understand the human message of
jerking and choking and screaming at him.
> and in my case,
Oh, in YOUR case? It don't matter WHO is HURTING the dog.
> the dog was A. almost as big as me,
Well most of the dogs I work with ARE bigger than me, often by fifty
pound bigger. I'd LOVE to see a punk like you try to throw down on of my
dogs like that, they'd mop the floor with your dead @$$.
> and B. a Labrador.
A dog is a dog. Just because your pal lying frosty dahl says a
labradoradora dog can withstand moore corrections doesn't mean
nutthin, except she's a lying dog abusing Thug too so what the HEEL
would we EXPECT from her.
> (Have you ever watched two or three Labradors *playing*?
Being ATTACKED is NOT PLAYING.
> A great deal of time is spent body-slamming & dragging each other
> about by the ear, face, and neck.)
So that clearly communicates that you should PLAY like that with them if
you so desire. I strongly suggest you start like they do too, by
sniffing @$$HOLES and LICKING THEM before you fraternize.
> > Dog sounds confused enough as it is,
And your lying dog abusing Thug pal lying sinofabitch? Is she NOT
confused, ROO? Whaaaadaaya thaink, roooooo? Is this clear REASONABLE
logic to your descartean educated mind?
LEVEL WITH US ROO.
Can you believe what she's trying to sell us? You BUYING THIS?
I ain't. AIN'T NOBODY BUYIN THIS.
> Definitely. :-(
Yes, you feel soooooooo sad for the poor little doggy. Seems to me you'd
want to HELP this poor little doggy by clearly communicating to him that
you're going to throw him to the ground and bite him on the ear because
you are afraid, and he's big and "just couldn't get it to understand the
human messages."
O.K. bums. Let's think THIS one through. You got an eight month old
puppy labradoradog, and he's pulling on lead. And that scares you
because you don't know HOWE to train him not to pull. And it hurts. He
could pull you intt the river and drown you. So, you throw him down and
bite his ear, to teach him to respect you, because you're FRIENDS with
said critter.
And it worked the charm, almost just like my Doggy Do Right (And Kitty
Will And A Rooster Did Too) machine does. The only difference is instead
of me throwing the dog down and biting ITS ears, my machine sends out a
hundred little itsey bitsey teenie weenie tiny Elves who gang bang the
bitch till she submits to your will. RIGHT?
But they both work equally well, sort of. My Elves don't HURT or
INTIMIDATE, the Elves makes the bitch feel like she's in HEAVEN. Your
method on the other hand, makes the dog think he's in HELL.
It don't matter HOWE much we HURT and INTIMIDATE. Any hurt or
intimidation is detrimental to the relationship and dangerous to the
health and well being of both human and dogs, and REMEMBER PEOPLE, $#!%
ROLLS DOWNHILL.
That means the dog is likely to use allelomimetic behavior or IMITATION
as our professorof behavior lying doc "scruff shake" dermer likes to
call it in the scientific terminology (so's he's not sounding like
Jerry), and tries that method for expiating his anger and frustration on
other, less capable family members or friends.
THAT'S KILLED SEVERAL DOGS ON THIS NG.
> >and the message is 'do what I
> > say because I'm bigger than you'
And moore vicious and less intelligent.
> If you mean the message of nipping the dog is "do what I say
> because I'm bigger", (or in my case, rolling the dog on it's side for a
> moment), you're wrong.
Alpha rolling and biting his ear is what you did.
Sure. It's COMMUNICATON. I mean that. This is rpdb.
O.K. You win. I'm buyin. I'm with ya all the way and then some on this
one.
> In the case of NB's puppy,
Perfect relationship, so there's NOTHING to worry about there.
> it sent the message of "HEY! I don't like that!"-
For sure.
> just as another dog would communicate it with a nip
EXACTLY.
> if the pup didn't respond to milder complaints.
Yes, we know we should never use nagging complaints as that only teaches
the dog he can do anything he wants and you're being weak and UNFAIR to
let that continue. Besides, he was hurting you and you might get pulled
in front of a fright train. Best to nip it in the bud, so to say.
> In my case, it sent two messages: One was "I don't like what you're
> doing, and you better knock it off!"
EXACTLY! Fast, effective, harmless. PERFECT, isn't it. Of course.
> and the other- the main one- was "Hey! I am somebody worth
> paying attention to!"
Correct. Clear, concise, direct, effective, and it only takes two
seconds. Cindy Moore has the alpha roll method on her faq's page. Cindy
touts it as her most effective weapon in her dog training arsenal.
> >which could encourage dog to see the
> > relationship in terms of brute force.
Oh no roo. The the dog understands that, it's doggy talkey.
> I think the OP's dog *does* see things that way, and that's the
> problem.
WELL, that dog need to be communicated with moore clearly, doesn't he.
> > OP may be genuine,
May be, Roo? What on earth would make you suspect the OP is a troll,
that doesn't make any sense at all. He's got a dog with a behavior
problem. A rather common behavior problem. What's to suspect?
> > since some people get a fixed idea in
> > their head about how they should be able to do anything
> > they want with their dog,
Yes, we NEED to be able to do anything we want with our dogs.
> > without considering how the dog perceives it,
That's why our method is implicitly clear.
> > and that's the sense I get here,
Yes. The clarity of the communication in the language the dog can
understand is worth a lot as Amy Dhal says.
> Yup. OP, if genuine, obviously knows very very little about normal
> dog behaviour.
That's why we shared the technique as it SHOULD be done. It's PERFECT.
And I agree, it's faster than the methods I used to use.
> >plus an unwillingness to learn anything that
> > doesn't fit in with OP's fixed ideas.
I agree there too. I used to be like that myself, but when I visualzed
the technique from the dogs point of view as you described it,
suddenly it all CLICKED.
When we throw the dog to the ground and climb all over him like a
raped ape biting him on the ear, that's dogtalk. It makes the message
quite clear, that's their language. Use it! :)
> Yup. OP sounds like he thinks dog should be grateful for having a
> good life and therefore behave, which is just plain silly.
Huh. Imagine that!
And just think, that's exactly the method I used to use and teach,
myself. That was really narrow mined of me I'll admit. But I didn't know
any better. I didn't understand doggy speak back then. I'd never had a
dog pull that kind of crap on me during my last thirty eight years of
specializing in temperament and behavior problems in mostly giant breed
dogs and protection training.
But I do have some vauge memories of getting thrown to the ground
myself and shaken like a rag doll on a couple of occasions, crippling
me up for two months on one of them.
Those were occasions where the dogs failed to get the clear doggy
talkey messages from their previous two or three original trainers, and
I was the only trainer left standing willing to try trainslating their
doggy talkie from their original GREEK back into human talkie, as it
should have been originally taught, if those former "trainers" were
truly EXPERTS, instead of lying, dog abusing geeks. j;~}
dogsnus
45033.news.dfncis.de>:
I saw some headlines about the court case regarding this today.
The headlines were that the breeder herself told the owners at least
one of the dogs should have been put down.
Of course, that's tv and she may also just be trying to clear herself
of any responsibility.
Terri
Jeff Harper
| >
| > Throw an 'r' into that last word ("crounties? what are
| > crounties?").
|
| ???
|
The R would be "thrown in" to make countRies. The cRounties was humor.
Jeff
Jeff Harper
jeff#doplay.com
Melinda Shore
Jeff Harper <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote:
>The R would be "thrown in" to make countRies. The cRounties was humor.
Apparently not.
Jerry Howe
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:a53bjb$47kn3$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
Lisa
<d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote:
<snip>
>walking/training a dog in a suitable harness.
>
>Patch
Hello Patch,
I also have a dog that pulls. (We are working on it, but it's
slow going.) I *thought* I understood at least the basics of the
physics of how a harness works (able to pull even harder, ect), but
obviously you have more experience than I about this. Would you mind
explaining to me why this isn't so? I am seriously interested, I
really want to understand this.
(I have a Samoyed, and I want to train him to pull in a harness, so I
don't think a harness will be an appropriate step for us at this
point. But I don't know a lot about it (obviously) and we'll be
starting obedience training in 10 weeks. Maybe I'll find out
otherwise... I can't wait to learn more!).
Thank you very much, I appreciate the information.
Respectfully,
Lisa Jensen and Liam (My puppy-boy)
Jerry Howe
The only place they're gonna lear about HOWE to handle the lead properly is
in their FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available
for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com
That's the one our lying dog abusing Thugs tell you is dangerous... Jerry.
"Jeff Harper" <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote in message
news:a524do$426lp$1...@ID-102001.news.dfncis.de...
> Start putting a harness on him for the walks, pronto. (Or an alternative
if
> you have someone experienced to teach you proper use.)
>
> Then, work on the pulling. There are several ways. Get a book, join a
> class, or read up online. The important thing is to be 100% consistent.
If
> you are not, you are mostly wasting your time.
>
> Also, start out patiently teaching him in an environment with few
> distractions and move up from there when he understands and has it down.
>
> Again, be patient and consistent. Try to understand what's going on in
his
> excited mind. Oh boy, oh boy! A walk! Oh boy! Many dogs pull more while
> walking a familiar route to a familiar destination--some may even feel
that
> their pulling in the past is what has gotten them there (the pulling was
> perceived to have been rewarded).
>
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Harper
> jeff#doplay.com
>
>
> "martian dreams" <martia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a50a9c$5mb$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> | I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever I take him
> out
> | for a walk. He's practically dragging me all over the place, madly
> pulling
> | on his leash like his life depended on it. That doesn't sound so
> unusual...
> | except this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death because he
> | pulls so damn hard.
> |
> | I've tried standing my ground (ie remain stationary) whenever he pulls,
> but
> | it's still not discouraging him. He'll pull as hard as he can, as far
as
> | the leash lets him, until he's literally standing on his hind legs with
> his
> | front paws flailing madly about in the air. One time, his 1-inch wide
> nylon
> | leash snapped/tore off because of all his pulling. He does this every
> time,
> | even after he's already done his business in the woods.
> |
> | The worst part is, I'm pretty sure he's damaging his throat with this
> | behavior. After our regular walks, he's *literally* coughing,
wheezing,
> | choking, and gasping. It's like he just got strangled. It's
pathetic...
> I
> | don't think he's even aware how much he's hurting himself. He's quite
> | literally choking himself with the choke collar. As soon as he's back
> | indoors, he's as docile as any dog I've seen.
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
Jerry Howe
abusing Thugs who WANT you to HURT your dog the same way they HURT and KILL
theirs, so THEY don't look out of place. You're one of the sheep, jeff.
Bye!~
"Jeff Harper" <dummya...@doplay.com> wrote in message
news:a534f3$4bkq7$1...@ID-102001.news.dfncis.de...
Jerry Howe
discussion, you nitwit. Jerry.
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a535fg$gov$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Jerry Howe
"Lisa" <lisa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3c77bbe0....@netnews.attbi.com...
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:15:20 -0000, "Patch"
> <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >walking/training a dog in a suitable harness.
> >Patch
> Hello Patch,
> I also have a dog that pulls.
No. Your dog has a handler that pulls.
> (We are working on it,
No. You're working against that.
> but it's slow going.)
Right, cause you're trying to force control, triggering positive
thigmotaxis, the
opposition reflex, compelling your dog to pull out of control. Any tension
on
your lead or any demanding commands, triggers physical or emotional
opposition,
and that's HOWE COME our "expert" dog lovers need to jerk and choke and
shock
and crate and kill their best dogs.
I've blown the whistle on the entire industry, and that's HOWE COME our dog
lovers
are telling YOU to killfile the fastest, most effective, gentlest, non
force, non confrontational
scientific and psychological conditioning and desensitization techniques
available in the world, for FREE in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog
Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com
That's the same reason they tell you to disregard Patch and Marilyn and
Canis55,
all the competent trainers who know better than to hurt and intimidate dogs
to
train them.
> I *thought* I understood at least the basics of the physics of how a
harness
> works (able to pull even harder, ect),
Right. But what you don't undestand is the same exact INFORMATION our
dog lovers cannot and WILL not "understand" because it contradicts
everything
they've done to dogs and taught their people throughout their miserable
careers.
They deny this information to protect their worthless reputations and aviod
scrutiny. That's HOWE COME the killfile campaigns.
> but obviously you have more experience than I about this.
It's not a mystery, but you got to learn not to reflex to dog behaviors by
jerking and choking and shocking and punishing, and our dog lovers are
INCAPABLE of that, they'd rather fight for so called "alpha" status and
intimidate force and kill their best dogs.
You think I'm kiddin? We've got a stack of dead dogs we've entertained here.
> Would you mind explaining to me why this isn't so?
Because it's a natural, normal, scientifically proven reflex... that we pull
away from the pressure, be it physical or emotional, hence opposition
reflex.
> I am seriously interested,
Our dog lovers are not interested. That's HOWE COME they NEED their pronged
spiked pinch choke and shock collars.
> I really want to understand this.
You'll be KILLFILED for learning that. The dog lovers here will call you
a liar, a paid shill for Jerry, and an animal fucker, just to get you not to
post INFORMATION here no MOORE. Got it? There's an intentional
CONSPIRACY to repress non violent scientific dog training information,
because it totally NEGATES everything our "experts" do and teach.
We're having a revolution. Welcome to WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method School of HARD KNOCKS.
> (I have a Samoyed, and I want to train him to pull in a harness,
Fine. No problem.
> so I don't think a harness will be an appropriate step for us at this
point.
Because you have NO INFORMATION.
> But I don't know a lot about it (obviously) and we'll be
> starting obedience training in 10 weeks.
Forget about it. Save your hard earned dough. You're starting in 10 weeks?
HOWE COME the wait? Your dog ain't OLD ENOUGH to be "trained?"
> Maybe I'll find out otherwise...
Study your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual and you'll never need another dog training lesson again.
> I can't wait to learn more!).
Start now and don't post back here till you've learned my manual.
> Thank you very much, I appreciate the information.
Our dog lovers will LIE to you.
> Respectfully,
Strange word around here, that one...
> Lisa Jensen and Liam (My puppy-boy)
Our dog lovers killed Misty's dog Peach for her...
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.ne
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
> Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no
> collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to
> come back in the yard and would run for days. The
> last time, Peach didn't come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to
> train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
> minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the
> yard.
> She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her
> from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we
> walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
> e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
> then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an
> electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
> The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
Disciple Paul said in his letter to roo (alikat) of the Hard Core
Cretins slander and lies calling my methods DANGEROUS and flawed...
Paul speaks of eating garbage, but you can substitute any behavior problem
from eatin poo to stealing off the counter, eatin kitty litter kat
krunchies,
sleeping on the sofa, barking, digging holes, jumping fences, mouthing,
anything:
And following that, there's one from Misty who doesn't have ONE
of her dogs anyMOORE cause our dog lovers convinced her I'm a
liar and a fraud, just long enough to cost her her dog's life. She tells
us she border trained her remaining dog using my methods. And
following that, she'll tell us that my machine cured her Cockatoo
of squawking and biting her son.
And following that, we've got Charlie W who cured an aggression
problem in ONE day using my methods. Our "experts" call
them LIARS and tell you to killfile us...
Wonder HOWE COME???
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').
Best, ben
"melisande" <melis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rLo08.751$0H.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> I haven't quite finished reading the FREE Wits' End
> Dog Training Method manual, but it already worked
> miracles with our three dogs
> The barking at the door has diminished so much that,
> well, frankly, we're stunned.
> Anyway, your approach is amazing.
> Melisand
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have
spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his
business. I simply want to thank him publicly for one
of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed
animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but
I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it.
Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic. Thank you Jerry!
Jeremy writes:
"A customer recently purchased a Shiba Inu and I suspect
she may be in for a wild ride. This is a breed that I
suspect may respond particularly well to mutual respect
style training. The alpha complex (as I now call it) is likely
to really provoke the dog's naturally competitive
nature.
Thanks 1000 times for opening my eyes and don't let
those assholes get you down. I can't be the only person
that sees the sense in your methods. I'm in Windsor,
Ontario, Canada and pass your info to anyone it might
help" Thanks, Jeremy.
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual I do find
valuable. Much of it I recognize as what I've always done without
thinking of it as "training". New stuff, I've used. His anchoring
technique erased the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs,
> two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back
> in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't
> come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog.
> She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces
> her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the
> road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
> when we walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and
> its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
> train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep
> my dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
"melisande" <melis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rLo08.751$0H.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> I haven't quite finished reading the free chapter on your website,
Your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com is moore than a
chapter, it's a comprehensive, total, complete, gestalt method to
train all animals to any level you desire.
> but it already worked miracles with our three dogs.
Excellent.
> The barking at the door has diminished so much that, well,
> frankly, we're stunned.
My methods work faster than any others, anywhere at any price,
including the thirty five level of medical grade static like stimulation
devices and pronged spiked pinch choke collars our "experts" here
love so much.
> We were sort of on the same page with you to begin with (no
> crates, no choke chains).
Good. Crates aren't inherently bad, only the way they're misused.
> A lot of what you say reminds of my dad's techniques (he's an 84
> year old dog lover,one of those about whom people say, "dogs really
> like him." He's never had a badly behaved dog.
Good. I've got a lot in common with folks who are gentle and treat
animals kindly.
> We'd never heard of the noise emphasis,
You mean the sound distraction and praise techniques.
> but the overall plan makes great sense.
Yes, one of my students Paul B wrote an excellent post recently I'll
include it at the bottom. It'll explain HOWE the distraction and praise
process works from his POV as an experience handler using my
methods.
> I did have a question. The hardest part for us to implement is
> the verbal praise only.
Why? That should be spontaneous and in association with every glance
towards you and every thought.
> It's so hard not to pet and stroke the dog (especially our seven
> month old).
Oh. Patting is O.K., only not in conjunction with a thought or
command, as it will interrupt the thought process and may l
LOCK the dog's thoughts on an inappropriate idea.
> Can you give me the rationale behind that?
It's called positive thigmotaxis, the opposition reflex. Like if
we're walking our dog and want to prevent him from interacting
with another dog, and we pull back on the collar, that often triggers
the dog to go out of control. As long as there's contact on the collar,
the dog will continue his original thoughts about interacting with the
passerby. Then because the dog is out of control, the handler needs
to further force restraint, making communication with the dog's MIND,
impossible.
> It will help me modify my own behavior.
Any time your dog is close enough to be patted is fine to pat him,
as long as we're not working with a command or thought we want
him to process.
> Anyway, your approach is amazing.
Yes, it's caused quite a stir here. If my methods are as effective
and fast and safe as I claim and my students confirm, that pretty
much means that all of my critics are DEAD WRONG, and all's
that's left for me to do is shovel some dirt over them over and
let 'em push up daisies.
> Melisande
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu9...@4ax.com...
> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the
> literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make
> the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice, just by
> taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The pup
> got scared and just wanted to stay away from me.
> That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits' End Dog
> Training
> manual -- that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy.
> The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this: make yourself
> the center of your puppy's world -- his personal Lord Jesus. Never
> give him a reason to fear you or think you're angry. Love the heck
> out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog.
> This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do anything I want
> her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent,
> and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship
> with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
> Charlie
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1199-3BD...@storefull-235.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Jerry has taken the time to help me out off the NG. I have a very
> loud cockatoo who has been having problems adjusting to my 8
> month old son.
> Joey is learning to walk. He likes to use Buddy's cage as a hold
> on for dear life object.
> Buddy wasn't exposed to toddlers prior to Joey.. my older two boys
> went through this stage in a different house where Buddy had his
> own room and the boys had only visits, not daily contact 24/7.
> Buddy has always been spooked by "tiny" humans. Joey has been
> driving him nuts! He showed his disapproval by non-stop screaming.
> A cockatoo scream can be heard a block away with all the widows
> shut <g> being in the house it makes your ears pop and your
> nerves crawl.
> Jerry sent me Free his DDR. He sent instructions on how to use
> it. He answered my questions quite politely.
> I have been using the DDR in my kitchen ( where Buddy is located~
> teensy 4 room house) for 3 weeks.
> At first I noticed no difference in Buddy's behavior. Then I
> realized after a week that he no longer screamed for hours on end.
> This isn't to say he stopped completely <bg> he still demands his
> share of all meals. But he doesn't start screaming at 10 pm when
> he wants _everyone_ to go to bed.
> Last week he had a day where he screamed all day. My nerves were
> frazzled. I went to turn the DDR up a notch per Jerry's instructions.
> I discovered the DDR was shut off! I turned it back on and left it on
> the lowest setting. Buddy calmed back down and quit screaming.
> In the time that I've had the DDR on I've had a lot of c*ts come
> to my house. One I adopted and he's quite the sweetie. He's a
> yellow tiger named Gatomon ( means c*t monster) who is very
> friendly with my kids and Zelda.
> I may not like how Jerry treats other posters but I do like the
> methods he shares. Being on a limited budget I like things that
> are free. I also like the fact that I can e-mail him and get advice
> whenever I need it.
> Even my DH who is a technical minded kind of guy thinks the DDR is
> working. ( He went to Devry and has a degree in electronics,
> knows alot about radios and anything mechanical... he's a jack of all
> trades around the house <g>). He does NDT for a living.
> We don't expect to need the DDR forever.. As soon as Joey is
> walking, Buddy will realize that he's not a strange animal.. some
> kind of furless dog or c*t <bg>.
> So, yes, there are some of us out here who do appreciate Jerry's
> methods if not his condemnation of other "regulars". Honey, flies
> that sort of thing....
> ~misty
> <"Terri"@cyberhighway
> > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> > Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> > come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
> Robert Crim writes:
> I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
> I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
> of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
> posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
> child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for
> putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
> the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
> The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
> idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
> we would not have had to hold the head of a really
> magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
> needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
> his last gasp.
> To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
> good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
> behind fake names are more honest than people that use
> their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
> breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
> j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
> lived by their craft for decades.
> "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
> level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
> people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to
> just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
> act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> > And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> > admit to buying and having success with his little black
> > box.
> I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
> it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
> would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> > Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> > Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> > him! LOL!
> I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
> Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
> As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
> >Terri
> Yes it was, and that is sad.
> Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box
> first?)
THAT'S HOWE COME . FIGGER IT OUT. j;~)
Oh, hey? Lookey here whot I found:
"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or beat a dog,
or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by
making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl who continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained
require much more frequent and heavy application of
pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the
job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it
yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress
to striking them more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even
the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping
theear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting
your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it
catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is
digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any
ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,
and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it,
chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting
tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty
dahl.
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine.
> > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > want to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
for her and her family.
BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
(an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
or using an abusive form of training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Patch
Hi Lisa,
Its not so much the harness as the *training* with the harness, so although
it may *seem* a conflict wanting to train him to pull a sled / whatever, but
not when just walking, it need`nt be so [ much like training a dog in
agility doesn't mean he will then jump the garden fence if you see what I
mean ].
The principle is that the dog feels comfortable and relaxed which allows you
to concentrate on communicating with voice and lead handling but without any
"force" issue between handler and dog. Now, once your dog is working well in
a walking harness, you can certainly progress to a pulling harness, as the
handling and cues will be different for the different applications, so it
doesn't mean he will then automatically pull when walking [ the harnesses
are different anyway which give different balance / signals to the dog as
well as those the handler gives ].
That will probably bring out the flamers who don't [ or wont ] understand
about it, so if you would like to go into it more, away from the ng, I`m
more than happy with that [ just remove the laughs from my addy ] so please
do let me know your thoughts, and any part you may feel unsure about ?
Patch
Jerry Howe
THAT'S what's been KILLIN our dogs.
HELP!!!
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:l7wd8.15301$Ah1.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Patch
> I'd prefer you keep the discussion of positive thigmotaxis on the forum.
> THAT'S what's been KILLIN our dogs.
>
> HELP!!!
Point taken.
Just didnt want Lisa subjected to any flaming for having an open mind and
wanting to understand, but I think my post pretty much opened the door
toward a better understanding at least.
Patch
Jerry Howe
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
> Point taken.
> Patch
You'll be killfiled for discussing this, it's the reason our "experts" NEED
their
pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars and crates. We're back to
square one again... and the question will now become tool, not training. We
don't know enough about the TOOLS our experts rely on to enhance the bond
between trainer and dog, as cindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon sez.
This is what we're up against:
Our pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn stutters:
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes:
"What are you talking about, you lying sack of dung?
You keep talking about some photo on "my" website related to dogs
and cats. I don't have a clue where you dreamt that up. There IS
an article about introducing dogs to cats at www.sfgsrescue.org -
hardly my website - but there are no photos with humans at that site.
And the article is clearly attributed to the author, who isn't me.
When have I ever said anything about using a prong collar, or any
collar correction at all, to make dogs friendly to house cats?
Don't bother. The answer is never"
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't forget
to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a
choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be
used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the
owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock,
sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with
electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was
being used."
"Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
Jerry Howe
"dogsnus" <dog...@micron.net> wrote in message
news:a53meg$4g423$1...@ID-74476.news.dfncis.de...
> > "sionnach" <rhyf...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:9ol25p$dses1$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
> > > Um, go back and read the entire post. In the preceding paragraph,
> > > he said: "i shouted like crazy and chased him under a table and he
> > > bit me when i tried to shoe him away."
> > > You CANNOT **force** a terrier to do anything,
> > Right. A dog suddenly ISN'T a dog. HOWE come you can FORCE
> > every other dog by shocking and twisting his ears and toes and
> > beating them with sticks, up till now all of a freakin sudden?
> > > and fighting with them will get you in serious trouble.
> > Excellent. Tell us HOWE to take that firm, no nonesense approach???
> > > But you also cannot allow them to think they're in charge of you.
> > THE SCENT OF FEAR.
> > > To give you an example of what I mean by "not letting a terrier pup
> > > get away with things": First day I had my JRT home (at that point,
> > > she weighed just under five pounds <g>),
> > Still small enough to chin cuff (which absolutely does not mean slap,
> > according to professora gingold) and scruff shake according to our
> > behaviorist professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer.
> > > I played tug with her with a fuzzy toy.
> > Yeah? Stop playing tug with my fuzzy toy.
> > > After a bit, she got excited, and tried to take it away from me by
> > > growling and pouncing/grabbing at my hand.
> > Excellent training...
> > > The indulgent sort of owner (as I suspect the OP initially was)
> > > would go "Aw, isn't that cute!" and give the toy. The over-
> > > reacting/ignorant sort of owner
> > Like you?
> > > (as the OP is now) would punish the pup by yelling, smacking,
> > > chasing, rolling her over, etc.
> > I see. So, you've taken in an abused and mishandled dog owned by
> > ignorant overreacting owners...to hurt and confront till the puppy is
> > "trained." And then you'll show them HOWE to hurt and confront the
> > puppy PROPERLY???
> > > The "make like a tree" thing (my usual response to leash-pulling)
> > > didn't work;
> > BWWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! OF COURSE NOT, it's not in the
> > FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual, because it does NOT
> > work CONSISTENTLY. That's found in dr dunbar's "excellent" work...
> > > yes, I could keep her from taking off,
> > By forcing and HURTING her.
> > > but instead of figuring out that she needed to try a different
> > > behaviour, and giving me something to praise
> > You mean BITING HER?
> > > she increased the behaviour.
> > Oy! If you weren't so freaking disgusting, I'd give up and go over to a
> > group where people love and respect the dogs they're working with.
> > > Nor did any attempts at verbal distraction work;
> > "Verbal distraction?" You mean screaming NO and threatening the dog.
> > > she was *determined* that she was going to yank the leash
> > > out of my hand and bolt down the trail after other dogs.
> > Nothing of the sort. Your efforts to force control triggers the
> > opposition reflex, positive thigmotaxis, and COMPELS THE DOG TO PULL.
> > This is NOT a conscious activity. It's strictly REFLEXIVE. It's as
> > unthinking in the dog as all of your methods are to me. They're
> > simply reflexing to condtions of their situation that you in your
infinite
> > abyss of wisdom can't figure out even when I show you HOWE and
> > explain WHY your methods defeat your puporse.
> > > When it was obvious that she had NO intention of paying any
> > > attention to anything but the other dogs
> > BECAUSE YOU MEAN AS MUCH TO THE DOGS AS DAY OLD $#!T.
> > > (and that I was in danger of having my arm dislocated <G>),
> > Yes, and that scares you and justifies HURTING and
> > CONFRONTING the dog to ENFORCE YOUR WILL.
> > > I didn't even think about it;
> > SHAAAAZZZZZZAAAAAAAAM!
> > > I dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > > grabbed her opposite foot with my left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear
> > BUT YOU DON'T ABUSE DOGS, do you, you miserable double
> > talking hypocrite.
> > > (not particularly hard-
> > Oh, but OF COURSE we never HURT a dog. Their EARS are the
> > toughest part of the dog's anatomy. That's why your pals need to
> > pinch them ears between a large coin and a shot shell or a prong in
> > your collar.
> > > I wasn't trying to *hurt* her, just
> > No, not hurt. Not you, you're too little to HURT a dog. And you're too
> > little to intimidate a dog. And you're a dog LOVER, so hurting and
> > intimidating dogs is not in YOUR repertoire of behaviors, IS IT,
> > sinofabitch.
> > > get her attention!).
> > Oh, because your "TRAINING METHODS" didn't??? Again? Still?
> > > Whole thing took less than a second-
> > Yup. You can destroy trust and bonding in LESS than just one second.
> > > I immediately released her, and she jumped up, wagging her tail,
> > That WAGGING is ANXIETY. NOT LOVE, TRUST, or RESPECT. It's
> > FEAR THAT WAGS THE TAIL and makes your dogs SEEM to be
> > happily excited to go out with your for another dose of ABUSE.
> ==========
James D. Lilly
>Got something against GL's?
>Jenn
To the contrary Jenn. I am and an officer at the local SPCA. Have seen the GL
work miracles on a daily basis.
James
>
>
>
>
People should be allowed to fail, but do not protect the lazy or incompetent;
Above all, people should be allowed to succeed and be rewarded for meeting or
exceeding the terms of the contract.
Monty Roberts, The Man Who Listens to Horses
Lisa
<d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Hi Lisa,
>Its not so much the harness as the *training* with the harness, so although
>it may *seem* a conflict wanting to train him to pull a sled / whatever, but
>not when just walking, it need`nt be so [ much like training a dog in
>agility doesn't mean he will then jump the garden fence if you see what I
>mean ].
>
>The principle is that the dog feels comfortable and relaxed which allows you
>to concentrate on communicating with voice and lead handling but without any
>"force" issue between handler and dog. Now, once your dog is working well in
>a walking harness, you can certainly progress to a pulling harness, as the
>handling and cues will be different for the different applications, so it
>doesn't mean he will then automatically pull when walking [ the harnesses
>are different anyway which give different balance / signals to the dog as
>well as those the handler gives ].
>
>That will probably bring out the flamers who don't [ or wont ] understand
>about it, so if you would like to go into it more, away from the ng, I`m
>more than happy with that [ just remove the laughs from my addy ] so please
>do let me know your thoughts, and any part you may feel unsure about ?
>
>Patch
>
>
Hello Patch,
Thank you very much for the information. I totally see what you
mean about the agility/jumping the garden fence thing.
I'm not quite understanding something yet, though. From what I
got out of what you wrote, does it mean if the dog is more comfortable
(ie, in the harness) then he would be less likely to pull? I thought
we were talking about less able to pull. (Which I very likely may
have misunderstood. Sorry!)
I totally understand about what you said about training him to
walk in a harness on a leash (means 'not to pull') and training him
with a sled ('go ahead and pull'). Dogs are smart enough to get that,
I just need to be smart enough to teach it to him! :-) Thanks for
clueing me in! When you said that, it reminded me of a horse trainer
that I have a lot of respect for. He would get the horse to do many
different things, using the same cue. I was stumped, until I saw him
in action and he explained why this was so. If horses can do that,
dogs sure as heck can!
So, if a dog starts out with pulling in a harness, does one react
the same way if they were pulling on a collar? What I've been doing
is if he pulls, I don't go forward. He gets to wait until he's
relaxed. And we do this until we get to our destination, or he stops
pulling. Is the principal the same, or will I find that he just won't
pull if I put him in a harness? (I figure I'd ask ahead of time,
instead of being surprised!)
I also didn't know there were different harnesses. <sigh> you'd
think it would have occured to me. I certainly have a lot to learn!
But I'm having a blast learning as much as I can!
As for my thoughts, I really appreciate your time and energy in
answering my question. I know more now than I did before, and I want
to thank you! :-) I just may put Liam in a harness after all. (Which
is what I wanted to do to begin with, but didn't think I could right
away)
Also, thank you for allowing me to e-mail you privately. I
appreciate that.
Have a great week!
Sincerely,
Lisa
Patch
<snip>
> Hello Patch,
>
> Thank you very much for the information. I totally see what you
> mean about the agility/jumping the garden fence thing.
>
> I'm not quite understanding something yet, though. From what I
> got out of what you wrote, does it mean if the dog is more comfortable
> (ie, in the harness) then he would be less likely to pull? I thought
> we were talking about less able to pull. (Which I very likely may
> have misunderstood. Sorry!)
Thats right, he`s less likely to pull in the first place, as there is no
conflict from him pulling, so you pull back, so he pulls harder and so the
cycle goes. Because he doesnt feel under force, he doesnt feel the need to
pull away.
Regarding not being able to pull, its not as easy as with a collar, as the
harness evenly distributes his bodyweight unlike a collar which he can
centre all his weight against. A pulling harness however, is designed to
allow the dog to brace his weight into it, hence those are made to give the
dog a "centre" for that purpose.
>
> I totally understand about what you said about training him to
> walk in a harness on a leash (means 'not to pull') and training him
> with a sled ('go ahead and pull'). Dogs are smart enough to get that,
> I just need to be smart enough to teach it to him! :-) Thanks for
> clueing me in! When you said that, it reminded me of a horse trainer
> that I have a lot of respect for. He would get the horse to do many
> different things, using the same cue. I was stumped, until I saw him
> in action and he explained why this was so. If horses can do that,
> dogs sure as heck can!
A dog [ or horse ] is only limited in learning what we want of them to the
extent that a handler may be limited in their own abilities to understand
the animal and to be its guide, so the more we learn, the more we can guide
the dog / horse etc.
>
> So, if a dog starts out with pulling in a harness, does one react
> the same way if they were pulling on a collar? What I've been doing
> is if he pulls, I don't go forward. He gets to wait until he's
> relaxed. And we do this until we get to our destination, or he stops
> pulling.
Whether on harness or collar, when you stop, the dogs focus is then on
standing still / sitting, so it doesnt equate to the action of the pulling,
so it can be a very slow way to teach heeling on lead. Its better to change
direction and use the voice to keep the dogs attention on you, and as he
will still be in motion, *thats* when the speed issue will be understandable
to him, IOW, you get his attention, you turn, he turns, you move straight
again, if he tries to go ahead, you repeat turning, different angles,
different speeds, always using the voice to *encourage* him to concentrate
on you, [but with no force or negative voice used ], so he learns that
concentrating on what you are doing brings him the reward of praise, so it
doesnt lead to conflict from him not understanding that a motionless action
[ stopping ] is related to him going to fast [ resulting in pulling ].
Is the principal the same, or will I find that he just won't
> pull if I put him in a harness? (I figure I'd ask ahead of time,
> instead of being surprised!)
I have never yet put a harness on a dog and not had an instant difference in
decreased pulling as a result.
The look of surprise on owners faces the first time they handle their dog in
one always makes me smile, even after converting so many over the years :-))
The important thing though is to work with the dog in harness, and not to
rely on the harness doing the whole job by itself, though certainly many
have been so easy that very little work [ time ] was needed, and certainly
results were much faster than with collar work, simply because the feeling
of force is taken out of the equation.
>
> I also didn't know there were different harnesses. <sigh> you'd
> think it would have occured to me.
It still hasnt occured to some people yet even though they have worked with
dogs for years, so dont worry about that <g>
I certainly have a lot to learn!
> But I'm having a blast learning as much as I can!
Thats how it should be :-)
*Enjoy* learning, and transfer that joy of learning to your dog so he can
get as much fun out of it too. The more fun it is, the better the learning
process works between you.
>
> As for my thoughts, I really appreciate your time and energy in
> answering my question. I know more now than I did before, and I want
> to thank you! :-) I just may put Liam in a harness after all. (Which
> is what I wanted to do to begin with, but didn't think I could right
> away)
:-)))
> Also, thank you for allowing me to e-mail you privately. I
> appreciate that.
You are most welcome :-)
>
> Have a great week!
Fanx, you too !
Patch
Lisa
<d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I certainly have a lot to learn!
>> But I'm having a blast learning as much as I can!
>
>Thats how it should be :-)
>*Enjoy* learning, and transfer that joy of learning to your dog so he can
>get as much fun out of it too. The more fun it is, the better the learning
>process works between you.
>
>>
>> As for my thoughts, I really appreciate your time and energy in
>> answering my question. I know more now than I did before, and I want
>> to thank you! :-) I just may put Liam in a harness after all. (Which
>> is what I wanted to do to begin with, but didn't think I could right
>> away)
>
>:-)))
>
>
>> Also, thank you for allowing me to e-mail you privately. I
>> appreciate that.
>
>You are most welcome :-)
>
>>
>> Have a great week!
>
>Fanx, you too !
>
>Patch
Thank you so much for that explanation! I can't even tell you how
much I appreciate it! You put a lot of time and thought into your
reply, I wish there was a better way to say Thank you!! :-)
Most Sincerely, (and appreciative!) :-)
Lisa
Patch
"Lisa" <lisa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>
> Thank you so much for that explanation! I can't even tell you how
> much I appreciate it! You put a lot of time and thought into your
> reply, I wish there was a better way to say Thank you!! :-)
>
> Most Sincerely, (and appreciative!) :-)
>
> Lisa
When you look at your pup wearing a harness, walking beautifully with you,
knowing that you will never cause him neck or spinal injury as a result, and
that you are really communicating *with* him, well just look at his eyes and
you`ll see that any thankfulness you feel will have been delivered in the
best way possible :-))
Patch
BethF
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
> A dog [ or horse ] is only limited in learning what we want of them to the
> extent that a handler may be limited in their own abilities to understand
> the animal and to be its guide, so the more we learn, the more we can
guide
> the dog / horse etc.
So, if I want to teach my dog to perform shakespeare, I can do this as long
as I understand him and guide him?
hm.....oh Kavik?? Wherefore art thou Kavik?
martian dreams
Lori Reynolds
--
Lori in Peoria, IL with the Sighthound Six-Pack
"martian dreams" <martia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a50a9c$5mb$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
diana
"martian dreams" <martia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a50a9c$5mb$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever I take him
out
> for a walk. He's practically dragging me all over the place, madly
pulling
> on his leash like his life depended on it. That doesn't sound so
unusual...
> except this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death because he
> pulls so damn hard.
[..]
>
> The worst part is, I'm pretty sure he's damaging his throat with this
> behavior. After our regular walks, he's *literally* coughing, wheezing,
> choking, and gasping. It's like he just got strangled. It's pathetic...
I
> don't think he's even aware how much he's hurting himself. He's quite
> literally choking himself with the choke collar. As soon as he's back
> indoors, he's as docile as any dog I've seen.
>
You can be sure he's damaging his neck and throat ~ it is a danger to
himself and to you so long as you allow this to happen.. ie the forse of him
pulling could cause you to lose balance & fall.
Choke collars are nasty peices of equipment and by all accounts are
considered outdated as even a training aid, (as they were intended to be
used). More generally they are used as you have been using them which,
please don't feel like I'm slating you, is of no good use whatsoever. I
would say about 80% of the dogs I see wear them ~ and I nag where I can
(just got Cal's dad to invest in a nice soft leather collar!... I'm now
working on pursuading him to tell Cal what to do rather than using the lead
like a handle.)
Throw it out or find some other use for it, it doesn't belong anywhere near
your dog. Buy a nice flat collar and find some training classes where you
will be taught how to walk together properly. In the meantime, invest in a
gentle leader/halti which can't cause him serious damage, but will stop him
putting all that pressure on his neck, and you will have more control.
Diana
>
>
>
Dirt
> I take him out for a walk. He's practically dragging me all
> over the place, madly pulling on his leash like his life
> depended on it. That doesn't sound so unusual... except
> this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death
> because he pulls so damn hard.
I know it would only be treating the symptom and not the
problem, but you could get the dog a harness. We put one on
Oliver because he has a "delicate" throat. It's not that he
chokes himself as you described, but a relatively light tug from
him with a normal collar and leash will result in the most
alarming asmatic wheezing sounds. It's like his throat has
closed and he can't breath and it might last for 30 seconds.
With the harness he's happy as a clam and wheeze free.
-Dirt-
Melinda Shore
Dirt <dir...@swbell.net> wrote:
>I know it would only be treating the symptom and not the
>problem, but you could get the dog a harness.
I probably wouldn't - it would protect the dog from injury
to its throat but decrease the amount of control. I'd think
I'd go with a head halter first, but I hate to suggest the
use of devices without someone experienced there to show the
poster how to use them. Note, too, that the poster doesn't
own this dog.
I think I'd try bribing the dog, frankly, if it's highly
food motivated. I had a good experience clicker training
Emmett not to pull, although it flies out the window when
I've got two or more dogs out (we're working on it).
diddy
A harness evenly distributes his weight so he can pull harder.
I would look into a halti or an antipull martingale.
DEFINITELY would invest in training!
--
diddy
---
POSTING TO THIS NEWSGROUP IS THE ONLY WAY TO REACH ME: THIS ACCOUNT
REJECTS ALL EMAIL. SPAMMERS CAN HARVEST AWAY AND BE DAMNED!!!
Chris Jung
> In article <Xns91BB6ECF09E71...@151.164.30.48>,
> Dirt <dir...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >I know it would only be treating the symptom and not the
> >problem, but you could get the dog a harness.
>
> I probably wouldn't - it would protect the dog from injury
> to its throat but decrease the amount of control. I'd think
> I'd go with a head halter first, but I hate to suggest the
> use of devices without someone experienced there to show the
> poster how to use them. Note, too, that the poster doesn't
> own this dog.
>
> I think I'd try bribing the dog, frankly, if it's highly
> food motivated. I had a good experience clicker training
> Emmett not to pull, although it flies out the window when
> I've got two or more dogs out (we're working on it).
> --
This past week, I was dog sitting a happy lunatic of a Labrador. She is a
sweet dog but a powerhouse of a puller with the neck of a bull. In this
Lab's case, at first I didn't even try to work on curing her of pulling,
since she was (IMHO) under exercised and thus out-of-her-little-mind with
pent up excitement. After some looong walks (three times a day), she
started to calm down and I could do a little training.
I taught her the "whoa" command which means slow down and pay attention to
me. It was pretty simple, when she pulled, I said whoa and put on the brakes
(acted like a tree), sometimes even ran the other way. The instant she let
up on pulling or even better looked my way, I gave her a good girl, OK! and
let her go. Miss Labby figured out that "Whoa" meant Chris was goin' do
something nutty so I better watch her. And in Miss Labby's case, the
release after the whoa was a great reward. By the end of our week, I could
say "Whoa, " and she would stand (still antsy ) and thus I could pick up
poop AND keep my arms in their sockets. (Poop pickup during our earlier
walks was not fun and I should've asked for extra combat pay ;-))
IMHO, many cases of pulling comes from dogs that don't get enough exercise.
It's a vicious cycle: the dog pulls, the owner doesn't like that and walks
it less, the dog pulls like a nut because he has even more pent up energy,
on and on. I've dog sat a number of pullers. I'm a firm believer in a good
dog is a tired dog. The dogs I take care of get lots of walks and I find
that by the end of my petsitting most pulling problems are gone (for me at
least, this doesn't transfer to the owners.).
Chris and her polite smoothies,
Zeffie & Pablo
Jenn
"Lori Reynolds" <lorire...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:rHOc8.26080$UT6....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> How about putting a harness on the dog instead of a collar?
> --
> Lori in Peoria, IL with the Sighthound Six-Pack
I'm thinkin' Gentle Leader myself....
Jenn
Patch
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C73E21E...@nospam.diddy.net...
> Dirt wrote:
> >
> > > I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever
> > > I take him out for a walk. He's practically dragging me all
> > > over the place, madly pulling on his leash like his life
> > > depended on it. That doesn't sound so unusual... except
> > > this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death
> > > because he pulls so damn hard.
> >
> > I know it would only be treating the symptom and not the
> > problem, but you could get the dog a harness. We put one on
> > Oliver because he has a "delicate" throat. It's not that he
> > chokes himself as you described, but a relatively light tug from
> > him with a normal collar and leash will result in the most
> > alarming asmatic wheezing sounds. It's like his throat has
> > closed and he can't breath and it might last for 30 seconds.
> > With the harness he's happy as a clam and wheeze free.
> >
> > -Dirt-
>
> A harness evenly distributes his weight so he can pull harder.
FALSE.
> I would look into a halti or an antipull >martingale.
Some harnesses / collars advertised as "anti-pull" dont do the job. A
standard Comfi harness - no, not a Canac tracking harness which looks
similar but isnt designed quite the same, do *not* increase pulling, they
decrese it, they allow the handler to communictate *properly* with the dog,
and therefore work excellently as a training aid.
Patch
Patch
> Dirt <dir...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >I know it would only be treating the symptom and not the
> >problem, but you could get the dog a harness.
>
> I probably wouldn't - it would protect the dog from injury
> to its throat but decrease the amount of control.
Yawn.
NO IT WOULD NOT DECREASE CONTROL - IT *INCREASES* IT BUT WITHOUT THE BATTLE.
Got it this time ?
Patch
Ken & Eve
head harness. AND start some dog obedience classes that teach motivational
training.
Eve
--
Eve & Ken Lowery
Brampton Ont Canada
jlwer...@rogers.com
"martian dreams" <martia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a50a9c$5mb$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
Jerry Howe
FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at
http://www.doggydoright.com j;~)
"Jenn" <pywh...@powersurfEr.com> wrote in message
news:OdTc8.77320$A44.4...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Jerry Howe
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a50lev$o5g$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Jerry Howe
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C73E21E...@nospam.diddy.net...
Jerry Howe
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:h3Sc8.105930$QG.24...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
James D. Lilly
Helle Haugenes
wrote:
OP wrote:
>> > I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever
>> > I take him out for a walk. He's practically dragging me all
>> > over the place, madly pulling on his leash like his life
>> > depended on it. That doesn't sound so unusual... except
>> > this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death
>> > because he pulls so damn hard.
[..]
>A harness evenly distributes his weight so he can pull harder.
Sounds to me like this dog already pulls as hard as he can. I can't
see how wearing a harness will make him pull any harder than described
by the OP, but I *can* see how it will keep him from hurting his neck
and throat.
I am using harnesses on both my dogs, one (40 pounds) hardly ever
pulls and the other (30 pounds) pulls quite a bit still, equally hard
whether he's wearing a harness or a collar. He's learning to walk
nicely, but forgets himself when he's eager to get somewhere. He's
still just a puppy. I was using a collar in the beginning, but decided
to get a harness because I don't want him to injure himself while he's
learning not to pull.
Also, about better control with a collar than a harness; I find this
to be untrue. The only times the collar is better is when we are
standing close to people he wants to greet. Otherwise I feel in much
better control him with the harness. Another good thing is that the
harness is much better when it comes to getting the leash between the
legs and under the belly, which happened a lot with the collar. Even
my neighbor with a husky and a malamute walks both his dogs with
harnesses on and he's controlling them just fine (just in case the
weight issue is brought up).
[..]
>DEFINITELY would invest in training!
Yes, training the dog not to pull is a very good idea :-)
Helle
--
Helle Haugenes
http://www.pobox.com/~newshelle
Cindy
Helle Haugenes <news...@pobox.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:51:26 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>
>wrote:
>
>OP wrote:
>>> > I'm taking care of a dog who gets *extremely* hyper whenever
>>> > I take him out for a walk. He's practically dragging me all
>>> > over the place, madly pulling on his leash like his life
>>> > depended on it. That doesn't sound so unusual... except
>>> > this 50-lb dog is practically choking himself to death
>>> > because he pulls so damn hard.
>[..]
>
>>A harness evenly distributes his weight so he can pull harder.
>
>Sounds to me like this dog already pulls as hard as he can.
Put a harness on the dog, and the choking point will no longer limit
his pulling. He'll be able to maximize the effectiveness of his
pulling by putting his entire weight -- his chest can take more than
his throat -- into the harness.
By way of example, imagine that you're trying to drag some furniture
away from the wall. If your carpet is a little slippery, you may find
you can't move it even hauling with all your strength. But if you brace
your feet against the wall, suddenly you can move it out. You're using
the same amt of strength either way, but in the latter case you can
make more effective use of it.
In this case I'd recommend either a pinch collar or a halter style collar.
For the latter, since the potential for injury is high, I would introduce
it to him slowly so that he is familiar with how it will control his head
in a much different way.
--CIndy
Jenn
"James D. Lilly" <fuzzy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020220191749...@mb-fn.aol.com...
Dear James,
Jeff Harper
you have someone experienced to teach you proper use.)
Then, work on the pulling. There are several ways. Get a book, join a
class, or read up online. The important thing is to be 100% consistent. If
you are not, you are mostly wasting your time.
Also, start out patiently teaching him in an environment with few
distractions and move up from there when he understands and has it down.
Again, be patient and consistent. Try to understand what's going on in his
excited mind. Oh boy, oh boy! A walk! Oh boy! Many dogs pull more while
walking a familiar route to a familiar destination--some may even feel that
their pulling in the past is what has gotten them there (the pulling was
perceived to have been rewarded).
Jeff
Jeff Harper
jeff#doplay.com
"martian dreams" <martia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a50a9c$5mb$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
swee...@gmail.com
I love my dog so much but it constantly did the things that irked me most. It would chew on things that it shouldn’t or jump up and down out of the blue.
Whenever I put on the leash, it would pull on it. Whenever it was out of the house, it would continue digging on the ground - I wish I could tell what it was looking for down there. The same goes for all the nasty urine.
All the things it did left me feeling depressed as if I failed it monumentally.
But since I discovered Brain Training for Dogs and applied the system offered, it now behaves the way a beautiful dog I always expect of 🐶
Here's a link to their site: http://hiddendogintelligence.club/
Good luck!