2 points about bad advice (in response to leah's detractors)
ChadL
shepard". There are 2 points that seem to be overlooked by the detractors
of chronic givers of bad advice. From what I've read, it seems that the
argument for attacking another poster that gives bad advice rests upon the
premise that people new to this newsgroup need to be warned against a person
who gives chronically bad advice.
Let us say that the detractors of leah, wish to (1) warn less experienced
people new to the group against leah's advice, preventing unnecessary harm
to animals; and perhaps (2) PUNISH Leah's chronically bad advice giving
behavior. (e.g., by calling her names such as "idjit", etc.)
Let's address the second, dog-lovers. I imagine that this attempt at
punishment has been tried before with this particular so-called "chronic
giver of bad advice" -- so has it been effective? I guess we'll see. If
not, then I would suggest a new method; because this one cannot justify the
premise of preventing harm to a naive owner's pets. Remember, when
"punishment" does not result in the decrease of the behavior, it's not
punishment, it's abuse. Ad hominem to be precise. And in some cases, I
imagine that this kind of abusive behavior is hypocritical (not to mention
ridiculous).
Now let's address the first. Do you think that the typical
new-to-this-group person is going more likely to adhere to warnings that are
calm, rational and well-supported? Or do you think that the typical
new-to-this-group person is going to be more likely to adhere to warnings
that are emotionally excitable, abusive, *and dismissive though not very
well supported with logical argument*? Do you think that some people might
be more likely to interpret the abusive people as simply rude, ignore them,
and possibly give the chronic bad advice giver a chance -- just to spite the
"mean" people? I think it could happen. And if it happens only once, then
that should tell you that your emotionally charged warnings are not as
effective as they should be according to your premise that you want to
prevent people from taking bad advice -- a premise that you unjustly use to
justify your abuse.
Charlie Wilkes
>I've decided to post this after reading the thread, "help with german
>shepard". There are 2 points that seem to be overlooked by the detractors
>of chronic givers of bad advice. From what I've read, it seems that the
>argument for attacking another poster that gives bad advice rests upon the
>premise that people new to this newsgroup need to be warned against a person
>who gives chronically bad advice.
>
Yep. It's a lot of self-righteous bullshit.
I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice, and I didn't think
it sounded bad at all. Of course you don't want to settle down near
the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
You KNOW The Puppy Wizard always sez bribing
dogs makes them MISTRUSTFUL. Dogs are
SCAVENGERS. They STEAL scraps of food and
run to hide to eat it with their backs to the wall.
Both looney toons and melanie REPORTED having EXXXPERIENCED that
when they tried to bribe their
dogs to be NICE.
leah's "advice" may sHOWEND good, but IT
DOESN'T WORK. That's HOWE COME she
HURTS dogs to train them.
You've been terrorized into stinkin thinkin by
readin that pit bull malarkey. A dog is a dog.
The Puppy Wizard. <{ ; ~ ) >
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:ip93tv0tm8i30mcsj...@4ax.com...
whitespc1
You probably have a lot of good things to add, but honestly I am having a
hard time reading your responses... what language is this in? When you use
all caps you lose me. Could you try to post so that we can understand you
or maybe this is just some sort of speak that I need to become more familiar
with... never saw it. Not sure it gets your points across as effectively as
possible.
I mean what does "sHOWEND" mean? What is "HOWE"..... same as "How"?
"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePupp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39jAb.1390$7p2...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
The Puppy Wizard
"whitespc1" <whit...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:yZmdnZUaVvE...@comcast.com...
>
> Puppy Wiz,
> You probably have a lot of good things to add,
Well, it seems there's as much GOOD STUFF to add
as there is BAD STUFF to IDENTIFY EXXPOSE and
DISCREDIT.
> but honestly I am having a hard time reading your responses...
The Puppy Wizard sincerely apologizes for HIS SPELLIN.
> what language is this in?
English. My poor gramma's been heelpin on some of
the tough SPELLIN.
> When you use all caps you lose me.
Ooops! Perhaps you should adjust your text size?
> Could you try to post so that we can understand you
> or maybe this is just some sort of speak that I need to
> become more familiar with... never saw it.
That could happen soon as we don't have noMOORE liars
and dog abusers posting abHOWET hurtin dogs to train them.
> Not sure it gets your points across as effectively as possible.
Of curse, you're probably right abHOWET that too...
> I mean what does "sHOWEND" mean?
Sounds like HOWE it SHOWENDS, don't it?
> What is "HOWE".....
Oh, that be Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
> same as "How"?
WON IN THE SAME.
You'll get all the FREE information you need in your
FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.
Just ask if you need any additional FREE heelp.
Nan
wrote:
>Puppy Wiz,
>You probably have a lot of good things to add, but honestly I am having a
>hard time reading your responses... what language is this in? When you use
>all caps you lose me. Could you try to post so that we can understand you
>or maybe this is just some sort of speak that I need to become more familiar
>with... never saw it. Not sure it gets your points across as effectively as
>possible.
>
>I mean what does "sHOWEND" mean? What is "HOWE"..... same as "How"?
>
Please don't encourage him. Most of us have him kill-filed.
Nan
Sionnach
> From what I've read, it seems that the
> argument for attacking another poster that gives bad advice rests upon the
> premise that people new to this newsgroup need to be warned against a
person
> who gives chronically bad advice.
Wrong. In the first place, nobody "attacked" Leah in that thread. Second,
it wasn't a matter of "warning against chronically bad advice".
Leah often gives good advice; it's just that she's new to dog training,
and has a habit of also giving advice on matters she doesn't have sufficient
experience with. One of the problems with that is that because she's
employed as a low-level beginning obedience/puppy trainer at PetsMart, she
has a title to add to her name which gives that bad advice more weight.
And because she DOES work at PetsMart, and has many people approach her
in RL for advice as well, many in here feel it's important to let her know
when her advice is off-base.
On top of that, she has a very long history - a history that goes back
several years before she got the job at PetsMart- of starting controversial
threads in here. Many people (I am not one of them) feel that she does so
deliberately.
perhaps (2) PUNISH Leah's chronically bad advice giving
> behavior. (e.g., by calling her names such as "idjit", etc.)
Nobody wants to "punish" Leah's bad advice, and nobody called her names.
Geez- where's Marshall Worth when we need him to continue his crusade
against the evils of hyperbole?
I imagine that this attempt at
> punishment has been tried before with this particular so-called "chronic
> giver of bad advice" -- so has it been effective?
Not in the exaggerated form you're talking about, but yes, Leah *does*
listen and learn. She'll tell you herself that she's learned from this
group.
> that should tell you that your emotionally charged warnings are not as
> effective as they should be according to your premise that you want to
> prevent people from taking bad advice -- a premise that you unjustly use
to
> justify your abuse.
Spare us the overblown rhetoric, please. Nobody was "abusive" towards
Leah.
whitespc1
in to a plot to sell some crazy device.
Can you tell me how I "kill-file" with newsgroups? I use outlook express.
Thank you,
Scott
"Nan" <summersha...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:rio3tv0dmgn6u0sun...@4ax.com...
Paul Foster
message!
click on BLOCK SENDER. Thats it!
No more Obnoxious Puppy Wizard!
The Puppy Wizard
"whitespc1" <whit...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:U9idneTPyr0...@comcast.com...
>
> Thanks Nan.... I was disappointed when I learned
> that the free advice
You mean The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.
> turned in to a plot to sell some crazy device.
Oh? You mean you MISSED your FREE copy of
The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual?
Perhaps that's on accHOWENT of you didn't read
the webpage? Just disregard The Puppy Wizard's
Doggy Do Right Device. All THAT does is CURE
ALL animal behavior problems.
You won't NEED THAT if you study your FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.
> Can you tell me how I "kill-file" with newsgroups?
You shouldn't listen to liars and dog abusers you
run across in the news groups, whitespc1. They're
predominantely MENTAL CASES, whitespc1.
> I use outlook express.
Good for you!
> Thank you,
ENJOY YOUR PROBLEMS.
> Scott
Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End
Training Really Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That
Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built
On Trust And Understanding."
Disciple Paulie Writes:
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relationship with
your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
Paul.
========================
> From: Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
> Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
> Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
>
> It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
> without too much difficulty.
:>
> My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
> Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around
> the bowls :-)
>
> I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
> anytime the dogstried to eat the cats food, followed
> with immediate praise. It worked a treat.
>
> The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there
> is food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we
> go out and leave the dogs with access inside through
> a dog door.
>
> Paul
>
> Obedience and affection are not related, if they
> were everyone would have obedient dogs.
>
> See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
> Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
====================
--- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bousie
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Geday.
Hey J,
I see nothings changed on the NG. Still the same
old crappy advice and misunderstanding of the
only advice worth reading.
The problem with your method J is that I can't
answer the questions on the NG no more, people
are after a quick fix, they don't want to understand
that dog training requires a disiplined method, I'm
now really understanding that they are all result
orientated, they want the dog to sit, to down, to
stay, to come, to stop it's "bad" behaviours, they
want to stamp out each anxiety one at a time not
realising they create a new one as they deal with
the last.
I feel sorry for them, they don't understand, they
don't even realise the errors of thier ways and
they arn't self thinkers, they follow the majority,
after all if everyone says thats the way then it
must be. I've finally realised people don't want
to learn to train dogs they want a trained dog,
they want a little puppet that sits and stays and
downs and does all the nice doggy stuff or so
they think, then when the dog acts like a dog
they come squealing to the NG asking how to
stop the dog being a dog.
I have a nice little visulisation of a dogs mind
that I think demonstrates the way we approach
dog training. Imagine lots of little circles all in a
cluster, each one representing a dog anxiety or
behaviour ( desied or not), each circle represents
something about the dog, all of them create what
a dog is.
The traditional way to train a dog is to stamp out
the "bad" circles, try to eliminate as many as you
can, problem is each one you stamp out another
takes it's place (anxiety circles can't be destroyed
they just change), obviously it's a futile exercise,
but thats the traditional way.
Now imagine a big circle that completely surrounds
all the small circles, this big circle is the whole dog,
that's what we get hold of with all the little circles
inside, we don't see the little circles we see the BIG
circle the macro as you put it and use that to train.
I laugh now when I see posts critisising you, they
are critising something they don't even understand
or even have the capacity to understand.
See ya,
Paul
=====================
"Paul B" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3edc...@clear.net.nz...
>
> "shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
> > I have been reading these forums for a few weeks
> > now, and am getting really confused!!
> > but is there actually anyone who has used the
> > methods in this manual with any success ?
100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, BY NEARLY EVERY FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Student.
It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE,
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.
> > I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon
> > and really would like to know the best and most
> > effective way of training without using food treats
> > or violence (i do agree with what the guy says about
> > food treats and violence)
> > Thanks for any intelligent replies
>
>
> I have tried his methods and found them extremely
> effective. There are several areas in particular I found
> useful.
>
>
> He teaches you and the dog to pay attention to each
> other all the time. He teaches you to have such good
> communication with your dog you don't need leash
> corrections or shock collars or even food, you can get
> the dogs attention any time you like by calling it or with
> a snap of your fingers.
>
>
> When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk close
> to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching them
> without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use good
> communication and was unable to be tempted to use
> the lead to correct them.
>
>
> Another part of the training I agree with is not using
> the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
> or react with it in such a way that you become involved
> in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach often
> results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when you are
> about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding, counter
> surfing etc).
>
>
> Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
> friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
> pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
> is included in this), teach it to recall reliably, then
> to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
>
>
> Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
> If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
> are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
>
> Paul
===============================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fitz [mailto:donf...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
> To: Ama...@DCFWatch.com; paulb...@clear.net.nz
> Subject: Jerry Howe
>
> Hi,
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulb...@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donf...@hotmail.com>; <Ama...@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe
> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.
>
>
> His methods are the best I have come across. They
> aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
> you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.
>
>
> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.
>
> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.
>
>
> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.
> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.
>
> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.
>
> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
> Paul Bousie
==============================
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
=======================
From: Paul B (NOSPAM...@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST
Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Good dogs!!! bad dogs.??
Date: 2000/10/21
Something occurred this morning that made me think how
we treat our dogs and what expectations we have of them.
Because it was a Saturday we slept in and the dogs
eventually jumped up on the bed on my wife's side. After
a brief greeting she very abruptly demanded they get down,
"OFF THE BED" she insisted, Sam looked at her perplexed,
so she repeated the "order", so Sam tried to lick her face,
"GET OFF" she said abruptly.
Sam got down but was unsure what he had done wrong. After
a bit they both came over and jumped up on my side, I patted
them etc and eventually asked them to get down, "off the bed,
good dogs" and they hopped off immediately with no prob's.
Eileen asked me why they obey me and not her so easily.
I told her they got down for me because I asked them to,
they know the command "off the bed" or "off anything" so
there is no need to demand it of them, ask them and they
will comply, demand it and they get confused because
they think you are annoyed with them but they don't know
why so they try to "make amends" which is why Sam licked her.
I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.
Telling Sam he's a good dog after he sit's apart from been too
late is also a gamble because if he doesn't sit then there's
no positive interaction.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.
Paul.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.
Paul.
========================
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
>Leah often gives good advice; it's just that she's new to dog training,
>and has a habit of also giving advice on matters she doesn't have sufficient
>experience with. One of the problems with that is that because she's
>employed as a low-level beginning obedience/puppy trainer at PetsMart, she
>has a title to add to her name which gives that bad advice more weight.
I'm sorry, you *completely* lost me at this point. At the risk of
indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that the fact that Leah
persists in adding this "credential" to her posts is no less deceptive
than Jerry's "testimonials", if for no other reason than that she is
(IMHO) *consciously* using it to give her advice (good or bad) more
weight.
(I wouldn't mind seeing a line added to Lia's periodic 'newcomer
briefing' to the effect that any self-advertisement of this sort is
only worth the pixels it's displayed on.)
>Nobody wants to "punish" Leah's bad advice, and nobody called her names.
>Geez- where's Marshall Worth when we need him to continue his crusade
>against the evils of hyperbole?
"It's EEEVILLL, I tell 'ya!!! Hyperbole will cause the downfall of all
that we hold dear!!!!"
Lee
Melinda Shore
Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>I'm sorry, you *completely* lost me at this point. At the risk of
>indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that the fact that Leah
>persists in adding this "credential" to her posts is no less deceptive
>than Jerry's "testimonials", if for no other reason than that she is
>(IMHO) *consciously* using it to give her advice (good or bad) more
>weight.
I was the one who asked her to do it in the interest of
disclosure; I think it's generally useful to know when
someone who's arguing that PetSmart (or however they
capitalize that mess) has a credible training program works
for PetSmart as a trainer and has a vested interest in
having people believe that the PetSmart training program is
worthwhile. I still think it's a good idea - we all have
our biases and interests, but when they're blatant and
directly topical I think we should be explicit about them.
Mind you, I tend to think that PetSmart employment gives
someone roughly the same gravitas as a trainer that working
at Burger King gives someone as a chef, so your point
doesn't really resonate for me personally.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bad taste is better than no taste -- Arnold Bennett
Lee DeRaud
>In article <vp04tvo6foni4d7rd...@4ax.com>,
>Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>I'm sorry, you *completely* lost me at this point. At the risk of
>>indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that the fact that Leah
>>persists in adding this "credential" to her posts is no less deceptive
>>than Jerry's "testimonials", if for no other reason than that she is
>>(IMHO) *consciously* using it to give her advice (good or bad) more
>>weight.
>
>I was the one who asked her to do it in the interest of
>disclosure; I think it's generally useful to know when
>someone who's arguing that PetSmart (or however they
>capitalize that mess) has a credible training program works
>for PetSmart as a trainer and has a vested interest in
>having people believe that the PetSmart training program is
>worthwhile. I still think it's a good idea - we all have
>our biases and interests, but when they're blatant and
>directly topical I think we should be explicit about them.
I agree that it's a good idea that she makes it clear she *works* for
PetsMart: that's more than enough to cover the 'conflict-of-interest'
question. It's the (implicit) "training qualifications" I've got a
problem with.
>Mind you, I tend to think that PetSmart employment gives
>someone roughly the same gravitas as a trainer that working
>at Burger King gives someone as a chef, so your point
>doesn't really resonate for me personally.
Well, that too, but you never know how much someone will read into
that 'tag'.
Lee
The Puppy Wizard
"Nan" <summersha...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:rio3tv0dmgn6u0sun...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:03:38 -0500, "whitespc1"
<whit...@comcast.net>
>
> Please don't encourage him. Most of us have him kill-filed.
You mean most of the liars, dog abusers and MENTAL
CASES like yourself who don't want to stop HURTIN dogs?
From: Nan (kittie3...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Bob Brenchley must have Mental Problems
Date: 2003-02-15 07:05:58 PST
He reminds me of a very insecure person who
resorts to insults and name calling to mask his
insecurity. He really needs to get a life.
> Nan
Looks like nan needs to get a life and stop
abusin her dogs.
From: Nan (kittie3...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: chewing
Date: 2003-01-24 07:12:15 PST
"Sonja" <for...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:1656a720.03012...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Is it still real common for an 18 month old lab to chew on
> > everything? At what age do you see this fading? I'm only
> > familiar will small dogs....I always though that was a puppy
> > thing?
>
> > Thanks
> My baby
You mean your DOG, nan?
> was 8 months old when I got him in October of 2000.
> He still chews everything and anything that he can get
> hold of.
Adult dogs chew destructively cause they're ANXIHOWES.
> He has chewed the edges of his outdoor water bowl,
> the corner of my DishNetwork box, the cats' bed,
> various books, a waste basket, etc. He loves to tear up
> newspapers.
Destructive chewing can be rehabilitated NEARLY INSTANTLY.
All you gotta do is STOP PUNISHING YOUR DOG, nan.
> He knows when he has done wrong
Dogs do not know right from wrong, nan. They're
FEARFUL ANIMALS, like yourself. That's HOWE
COME you PUNISH YOUR DOG, nan.
> because he hangs his head when he's caught.
BECAUSE YOUR DOG FEARS YOU HURTIN HIM.
> He still chews on sticks, pine cones, etc. when he's outside.
Yes, cause he's anxiHOWES cause you PUNISH him.
From: Nan (kittie3...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: safe winter temperature for yellow lab
Date: 2003-01-05 11:42:37 PST
> I've been lurking for awhile in this ng and I agree
> with you about a lot of the info that you get in this ng.
You mean the "info" from liars and dog abusrs
and mental cases like yourself, nan?
> My 3 year old Lab begs to go out first thing in the
> morning and stays out in the yard all day. He has
> a doghouse filled with pine straw to go into, but
> unless it is raining or really nasty he normally doesn't
> go into it,
Oh? You mean your BABY, nan?
> and before anyone says anything about the
> pine straw he prefers it over any other kind
> of bedding. He comes in the house at dark,
> and about an hour later he wants out again.
Your BABY certainly doesn't spend much time
with you in your HOWES.
> This time he stays out until bedtime.
You mean, your BABY spends MOORE time
HOWEtside than indoors with you cause HE'S
DESTRUCTIVE cause YOU PUNISH HIM, nan.
> Cold weather is not going to hurt a Lab
A BABY IS A BABY, nan.
> as long as he has adequate shelter.
You sayin YOUR BABY would PREFER to be
HOWET in a dogHOWES instead of being in
your HOWES cause you CAN'T TRUST HIM
in your HOWES cause HE'LL DESTROY IT, nan?
> The toolshed might not be the most desirable
> place, but if he is happy there for a few hours a day,
> why not.
You mean INSTEAD of TRAININ your BABY, nan?
> Nan
Listen up you dirty nasty mean bible thumpin old bag.
You're a dog abuser like your lying dog abusin
punk thug coward pals. Here's a couple dog
lovers who got DEAD DOGS cause they listened
to the likes of you:
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===============
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16990-3C...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
> not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her
loss.
> I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how
> you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my
> using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not
> wanting to stay home.
>
> Up until I started using it my main concern had been
> keeping my dogs in their own yard.
>
> Once I started using the e-fence...well, then my concern
> became how to keep them from running off for days on end.
> I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the
anti-
> shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
>
> I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world
> now <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely
> housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard,
> and doesn't bark all the time. IOW a great companion
> and friend.
>
> Thanks Jerry!
=====================
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.ne
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
> Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no
> collars.
>
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to
> come back in the yard and would run for days. The
> last time, Peach didn't come back home.
>
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to
> train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
> minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the
> yard.
>
> She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her
> from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we
> walk around the yard.
>
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
> e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
> then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an
> electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
> The price was too high:-(
>
> ~misty
============
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21047-3CA...@storefull-2291.public.lawson.webtv
.net...
> Jerry sent me the DDR when I mentioned my cockatoo was
> stressed out by my then just learning to walk baby.
> Buddy was screaming day and night..lunging at Joey
> whenever he crawled up to Buddy's cage and nipping the
> baby ( if Buddy wanted to his beak is powerful enough to
> sever an adult's finger in one snap!) At first we
> noticed nothing... after a few days ..nothing..nothing
> except quiet :-)
> That's not to say Buddy never screams.. heh.. he'a a
> 'Too.. but the late night scream-a-thons ended.
> He also tolerates Joey playing in his water dish <sigh>
> just what I want...2 splashers! Buddy loves to bathe in
> his water until there's more water on the floor and
> walls than in his dish :-)
> Twice now Buddy has had marathon scream-a-thons... for
> a few days each time. It takes that long for me to
> realize the DDR is unplugged :-O
> Once cos DH did some maintenance and forgot to plug it
> back in ( of course he remembered to plug the washing
> machine back in ;-P)
> The second time I had unplugged it while sweeping...and
> forgot to plug it back in...
> We sure enjoy him being such a good bird! He's been so
> loving to everyone... my older 2 boys love being able
> to give him scritches again.
> ~misty
> (No, Jerry, you can't have the DDR back just yet! :-)
===================
The Puppy Wizard
"whitespc1" <whit...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:yZmdnZUaVvE...@comcast.com...
> Puppy Wiz,
> You probably have a lot of good things to add,
Everything we've been taught about dog behavior by the
likes of HOWER DOG LOVERS is DEAD WRONG.
"Linda" <llindal...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3c317fe4.03010...@posting.google.com...
> I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
> dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
> I do not know what started the problem but he came
> aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
> snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
> and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
> ad I took him with me everywhere.
>
> At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
> Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
> clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
> it was not working on his aggression problem.
>
> I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
> trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
> They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
> and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
> suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
> working as he was becoming more aggressive.
>
> I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph.D. 400 miles
> away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
> on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
> use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
>
> I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
> ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
> LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
> University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he had
> fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the gentle
> leader and when out walking and he got stressed have the
> people stop until he could get in control using treats,and work
> on clicker training.
>
> At that point I knew more about clicker training and using the
> gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he would
> not come when I called him and would run away when I tried
> to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the neighborhood
> as we had become that "mean dog and women who hasn't
> trained her dog"
>
> I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
> were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were
> so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said
> I should give up on him and kill him but they would say
> "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
> responsible for him."
You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.
> As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
> going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
> Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
> Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
> He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
> not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
>
> The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
> I had been working for 18 month!
>
> Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
> from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
> I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
> blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
> can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
>
> I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
> -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
> looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
> on by.
>
> When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
> me like "you must be out of your mind"
>
> The results can make a believer!!!
>
> Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
> Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
> in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
>
> He just seemed to not notice any one.
>
> When people talked to him or ask his name he would
> look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
>
> I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
> enjoy life out in public.
>
> If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
> was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
> Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
> toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
>
>
> My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
> dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
> out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
>
>
> I know most people would have given up on him a long time
> ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
> but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
>
>
> I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
------- Message -----
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
Original Message -----
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
Sunshine is still acting like a new dog!
Saw a dog today and "good boy-" worked along with calling him-
came the first time every time. Not even a sound out of him.
Think it is hard for him but he never even seemed to think
about going off-reacting.
The word come has no affect on him just the phrase--Sunshine
come goodboy.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Howe
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:17 PM
To: Lindalee
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
----- Original Message -----
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression
HOWEDY Linda,
> I am not sure what happened but after two days
> Sunshine walked with me not sniffing, pulling or
> going his own way. In two and a half years he
> has never walked without his nose to the ground-
> -today he walked closer too the cart than ever
> before and turned to look at me every few minutes-
> -in past with treats and pleading he only looked
> toward me when I had a treat in my hand.
> It is hard to believe he has really changed so quickly.
> Now I have several questions--After one time with
> throwing the can he has always come on the first call-
> -do I need to try to set him up to not come so we can
> do four times in different places?
Yup. You've got to generalize the come command to make
it 100% reliable. MISTAKES ARE GOOD. You want him to
make a few mistakes so we can get the sound associated
with the command.
> I have not tried to call him off leash outside as that is
> the time he is does not come.
O.K. You know to do the HOT & Cold and Family Leadership
Exercises and you'll have a perfect come command in a couple
fifteen minute sessions.
> On the leash he came on the first call today even when he
> was starting to explore the leaves etc.
Excellent. We discussed his penchant for eating leaves and
dirt off the ground.
> He walked past several people today with hardly a second
glance-
We also discussed that he was rather aggressive, and you
were becoming very concerned about being able to keep him.
> he did see a cat about 10 feet away and when I called him
> the first time he did not respond but when I used the can he
> ran over to me and seemed to forget about the cat.
PERFECT. Next time you'll probably not need the sound.
Just remember to vary the origin of the sound each time,
day in to day out, the sequence never breaks.
> Now what do I do when he sees another dog?
You'll tell him GOOD BOY and prepare to make the sound
and praise if he continues looking, and if that fails, you'll
ask him to come, keeping in mind the sequence of the
commands with sound and the distract/praise techniques.
You'll get used to thinking that fast in a couple more days,
no problem.
> Although the calling him the four times seems easy it was
> very hard-
Yes, it takes a bit of a knack to get it just right, but if
you fail, not to worry, you'll be able to get it right the
next time.
We don't lose points for "do overs" as long as we get the
pup under control fast and EZ. That's HOWE COME that
dependable come command is so necessary.
> -I had a friend which was good since I had a lot of trouble
> calling the right way and using the can at the same time.
Yes, I recommended you may want a friend to help because
of your disability.
> I found out I had been calling him many times each time
> I called him to come.
Right. Should be about a second between requests and
the sounds on the second and fourth commands and move
off into the FPLX if that fails, and continue the technique.
EZ, huh???
> I am still working on the leash it is really hard when you
> are not standing upright as the leash can not be as loose
> since it drags on the ground-
Yeah, I don't know if you're able, but do try to handle the
lead exactly as instructed. It'll feel uncomfortable for a
few days, but we don't want that lead tangling and
accidentally pullin on him.
>-I am so worried without the leash around my hand
Psst! If you've got fair strength in your hands, let me
do the worrying for you... O.K.?
> but I am not sure if it was the leash,
Well, you know I told you it was the overcontrol of
the lead that triggers positive thigmotaxis, the opposition
reflex.
> telling him good boy everytime he looked at me
That ALWAYS works. All my Mrs. got to do is tell me
good boy and I'll do anything she asks. Hey? I think
I just figgered out HOWE COME she always gets
her way with me...
> or the cans,
Any sound will suffice, even an extraneous and coincidentally
but well timed sound will work, maybe even BETTER.
> but today seemed like a miracle.
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
> I told a friend about this approach and they thought you
> were on "Today" this spring--was it you?
Naaah. There's nobody that has such fast EZ safe gentle
methods. I'll be on TV soon enough with my Doggy Do Right
(And Kitty Will And A Rooster Did And A Cockatoo Or Two
Did Too) machine.
But that's just gonna give me the floor to discuss the state
of the art of the animal behavior industry.
Would you do me a favor? If you're on the internet, I'd sure
appreciate it if you'd repost this to the groups, a lot of
people are saying terrible things about me and tellin folks
reports like yours, are FORGERIES by ME.
Thank you for being a good student.
Yours, Jerry.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Howe
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 10:24 PM
To: Lindalee
Subject: Re: dog aggression
Dog training isn't LUCK. You'll do perfect or I'll get the
heel outta this business... Yours, Jerry.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression
Will let you know how it goes!!!--thanks for the encouragement
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Howe
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:35 AM
To: Lindaleee
Subject: Re: dog aggression
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: dog aggression
HOWEDY Linda,
> I got your message tonight and have printed
> your manual--will start tomorrow--
Excellent.
> I am truly at my wits end!!!
Me too, but not with your problem. This one's EZ!
> Today he bite me twice breaking the skin when he was in a
> "rage" .
He's gonna be EZ. He's not even thinking about you when he
bites. He's just overexcited trying to PROTECT you. That'll
diminish immediately through simply handling the lead
properly, gettin the control and attention through the praise
conditioning, and distract/praising his aggressive thoughts
before he gets out of control.
EZ stuff.
> Once when he saw another dog-ran toward the dog
Sound/praise and repeat as necessary. Just remember
to always vary the direction the sound comes from. You
might need a helper to produce the alternate sounds in
time.
> and pulled me down-
In a couple days that'll cause him to come back to you.
> -since I do not walk or move very well, falling down is
> a major problem as I can not get up without much help.
He'll straighten out in a couple days of EZ work.
> He bite me when my hand went close to his mouth while I was
> falling.
Yes, but he wasn't conscious of YOU, he's in a fury protecting
you.
> The second time was when we were going down the street-
> -I use an electric cart
Excellent. You'll be able to handle him EZ like that.
> and a man walked toward us and He saw him before I did
That would complicate and slow things down.
> and took off-
In a couple days you'll have the control to stop him after
he's started.
> -lunging barking and snapping again I got my hand within
> reach of his mouth and he bite me-
That was predictable!
> -he bites what every is close.
At least he's consistent. That's GOOD!
> When he is not in a rage he will let me doing anything-
Of course. He sounds PERFECT. This is the kind of
dog I'd go out of my way to get for myself...
> -take is food away, touch him anywhere, or do anything to
> him-
Perfect.
> -and he will never even raise his lip but when he goes
> off he is in another world.
Yeah, kinda like me...
> You are my last hope-
You're gonna be EZ.
> -he works to help me at home--he picks up anything on the
> floor, closes doors, picks up the daily paper and will stand to
> brace me when I stand up on my bad days.
He sounds like a great dog!
> He waits for me to go out the door first and will wait until
> I call him to come in and close the door.
He'll learn the same manners when in pubic.
> He really helps me everyday and if I didn't have him life
> would much harder.
We'll fix him up in a couple days of EZ work.
> But I know if we can not solve the "rage" problem
Pssst! It's already in the bag...
> he will bite someone other than me and will have to be
> killed.
Not to worry, that'll be past history in a couple days.
> Your method seems so simple
It is. Just follow the techniques and ask me if you
need any help. I've got all kinds of fast EZ solutions
for any problem you could encounter.
> after all we have tried it does not seem possible to
> change his behavior easily-
Everything you've tried has relied on bribes force
and confrontation.
> -but I will start trying tomorrow.
And instead of trying to force him to stay in control,
you'll PRAISE his first aggressive thought and he'll
move in close to YOU to protect you, not charge at
others. He'll learn FAST that you want the aggression
and he'll want to use it BEST for YOU, so he'll do
EVERY THING you ask the first time.
I'd LOVE to have a hundred dogs just like him today.
> I use a Halti so he does not pull me over-usually!
Right, but here again, you're relying on some degree
of force to control him. That will ALWAYS trigger
the OPPOSITE of what we want, telling him to be
aggressive, not to pay attention to you and your safety.
Once he sees THAT, you're gonna need a shoe horn
to PRY him AWAY from you.
In fact, when you WANT him to attack someone all you'll
have to do is let him see someone and gently pull back
on his collar without sayin nuthin, and that'll set him off...
> but have never used punishment, choke collar or any
> other "corrections"
Good, that'll make it REAL EZ to teach him my methods.
> I taught him all his tricks and tasks with a clicker and
> food.
Fine. We'll forget the treats and use the click differently
for our puporses.
> Thanks for your help in advance-
CONGRATULATIONS in advance...
> -I pray your method will be our salvation!!!
No need to. It's already DONE.
> Linda.
Do me a favor? If you could keep a record of our
discussions and your work with your pup, and
send it in to the news groups I participate in, it'd
be a great benefit and inspiration for others in the
same or similar situations.
Welcome to Wits' End Dog Training.
Yours, Jerry.
================================
--------Original Post-----------
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
Will try it today and post how well this system works.
We went to a dog class that I had enrolled in for
resocialization--getting him to not lunge and try to
attack every dog he sees, we were at the third class
and I forgot the Halti but he was relaxed and had no
problem with any of the seven dogs-
-in the past he would shake and after a little while
turn away from the dogs and look at the wall. Saturday
he wanted to play with the dogs--he actually pulled
toward the dogs- kinda jumped around like he use to do
before he became aggressive- when he got close to another
dog.
Teacher was impressed with him but thought it was from
her class--I didn't tell her anything different-she had
tried but it sure was not working.
Today on our walk a dog went by and he alerted but did
not move toward the dog and when I called him he actually
came with his tail wagging and forget about the dog.
I have told everyone I see about your dog training-
-all my friends and neighbors know I have been so worried
and frustrated with Sunshine's behavior-infact some would
turn around and go the other way so as not to get close to us.
If people knew how easy it could be to get a dog to come
and listen to you there would be a lot less dogs in shelters.
I know I didn't know what to do and was afraid I would have
to kill him if he bite someone even though I loved him so
much.
--- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Howe
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
HOWEDY Linda,
Your words are music to my ears, and are my
sunshine.
Thank you for being a good student. I'm available any time
you have a question or whatever.
Welcome to Wits' End Dog Training.
Yours, Jerry.
================================
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
>No.. She was ASKED by the group to add that, since she was constantly
>referring people to go to PetSmart for training. Her recommendations were
>not exactly unbiased.
>
>If you recommend feeding Ol Roy, you should post that you work for the
>company that sells it. should you not?
Absolutely: my point was that her implied "training credentials" go
quite a bit past that.
Lee
Julia Altshuler
> (I wouldn't mind seeing a line added to Lia's periodic 'newcomer
> briefing' to the effect that any self-advertisement of this sort is
> only worth the pixels it's displayed on.)
I'm experimenting with not sending out the occasional post. My goal for
the post was to help people talk more about dogs and less about
rehashing the usenet annoyances. I'm not sure it was doing any good.
My intention was never to tell people what they should or shouldn't talk
about. (I like a great deal of the off-topic discussion myself.) I was
only hoping to let people who wanted to complain about the resident
lunatic that we'd all been there before. That way posts could be
labeled [ninnyboy] or [eggplant] appropriately. (Have I ever told y'all
what a kick I got at the way the [eggplant] label was adopted so quickly
and absurdly?) I'm not sure how a warning about self-advertisement
would further my goals. There is a note in the occasional post about
contradictory advice. Would an additional note really help cut down on
the bickering?
--Lia
Sionnach
> People complain because it's there, and they complain when it isn't. Poor
> Leah can't win!
Definitely truth to that last one - as I said, while I sometimes holler
when Leah gives advice I think is off-base, I also think a lot of people in
here get a bit carried away with their attitudes towards her & everything
she posts. I understand why they have those attitudes, but I don't agree
with them. I am *not*, btw, referring to Lone's "you don't have a clue"; she
was specifically referring to Leah's lack of experience in dealing with
aggression.
As regards Leah's signature line, I think it's perfectly appropriate for
her to put it on there, myself; the issue comes in when people in here, like
people in RL, don't realize that a PetsMart pet trainer is not necessarily
someone with any real training or experience.
That's not a Leah-specific issue, it's a general issue.
Marshall Dermer
>I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice, and I didn't think
>it sounded bad at all. Of course you don't want to settle down near
>the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
>if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
>tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on fearful, nervous behavior?
Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
I would provide the reinforcers either when the dog is not so behaving or
alternatively I would use some schedule that promotes a diminishing level of
such behavior.
DIFFERENTIAL REINFORCEMENT OF LOW RATE
Reinforcement occurs for each response that follows the preceding response
by at least some minimum delay.
Stands For: (DRL) Last Modified: 4/6/1999
DIFFERENTIAL REINFORCEMENT OF LOW RATES
A behavior is reinforced only if it is expressed after a preset interval of
time but has not been emitted during that interval. Example. A teacher
compliments and calls on a student who waits 3 minutes before participating
again. 24
Stands For: (DRL)
DIFFERENTIAL REINFORCEMENT OF LOW RATES
Reinforcements occur only when the rate is below some specified value.
Stands For: (DRL) Last Modified: 4/6/1999
DIFFERENTIAL REINFORCEMENT OF DIMINISHING RATES
A schedule according to which a sequence of responses repeated below a
series of gradually diminishing preset rates is reinforced. (E.g.,
reinforcers followed when a student talked out no more than 5 times during
the period; then no more than 4; then no more than 3; and so on.) 24
Stands For: (DRD) Last
The above definitions can be found here:
http://www.coedu.usf.edu/abaglossary/main.asp
Also relevant BEFORE intervening would be conducting a functional
analysis:
FUNCTIONAL ANALYSIS
An analysis of the contingencies responsible for behavioral problems.
Last Modified: 4/6/1999
Website © 1999 The University of South Florida
FUNCTIONAL ANALYSIS
An analysis in terms of behavioral functions (i.e., what effects responses
have); alternatively, an analysis in terms of functional relations, (e.g.,
the production of pupillary constriction by light might be discussed as a
pupillary reflex, but a functional analysis deals with the phenomenon as a
transition from one point to another on a continuous mathematical function
retaking pupillary diameter to light intensity).
FUNCTIONAL ANALYSIS
The process of testing hypotheses about the functional relations among
antecedents, target behavior, and consequences.
FUNCTIONAL ANALYSIS OF BEHAVIOR
An analysis of behavior in terms of its products or consequences.
Functionally, there are two basic types of behavior, operant and respondent.
The term respondent is used to define behavior that increases or decreases
due to the presentation of a stimulus (or event) that precedes the response.
Such behavior is said to be elicited, in the sense that it reliably occurs
when the stimulus is presented. There is a large class of behavior that does
not depend on an eliciting stimulus. This behavior is called emitted and
spontaneously occurs at some frequency. When emitted behavior is
strengthened or weakened by the events that follow the response, it is
called operant behavior. Thus, operants are emitted responses that increase
or decrease depending on the consequences they produce.
Last Modified: 4/6/1999
--Marshall
The Puppy Wizard
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qooAb.447423$Fm2.441982@attbi_s04...
>
> Lee DeRaud wrote:
>
> > (I wouldn't mind seeing a line added to Lia's periodic
> > 'newcomer briefing' to the effect that any self-
> > advertisement of this sort is only worth the pixels it's
> > displayed on.)
>
> I'm experimenting with not sending out the occasional post.
You've been EMBARRASSED by the responses, liea.
> My goal for the post was to help people talk more about dogs
You HURT your dog, liea.
> and less about rehashing the usenet annoyances.
You mean lying dog abusing MENTAL CASES like yourself?
> I'm not sure it was doing any good.
Oh INDEEDY liea. If you didn't post your WARNINGS,
The Puppy Wizard would seldom have occasion to
QUOTE YOUR POSING HISTORY OF LIES and ABUSE
and BITES, FIGHTS, ESCAPES, OCD BEHAVIOR
PROBLEMS, and ASSAULTS ON CHILDREN, liea.
> My intention was never to tell people what they should
> or shouldn't talk about.
You're a coward, a liar and a dog abuser, liea.
Your posting histor PROVES it. Have a gander,
The Puppy Wizard posted it below:
> (I like a great deal of the off-topic discussion myself.)
Well, this is a behavior forum, liea. Your off topic
quilting and art class that you're 'sittin in on' ain't
pertinent or of concern to us here on The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Forum, liea.
> I was only hoping to let people who wanted to
> complain about the resident lunatic that we'd
> all been there before.
No liea. WE AIN'T ALL BEEN THERE BEFORE.
Only HOWER MENTALLY ILL LYIN DOG ABUSIN
PUNK THUG COWARDS have been and STILL ARE
there, liea.
> That way posts could be labeled [ninnyboy] or [eggplant]
> appropriately.
You can't post here abHOWES noMOORE, liea.
> (Have I ever told y'all what a kick I got at the way
> the [eggplant] label was adopted so quickly and absurdly?)
Your dog attacked your only friend and tried to attack
the neighborhood children visitin and DID attack a
neighbor's dog and escapes, cause YOU HURT HER.
> I'm not sure how a warning about self-advertisement
> would further my goals. There is a note in the occasional
> post about contradictory advice.
INDEED? DO TELL, you dog abusing Nazi?
> Would an additional note really help cut down on
> the bickering?
PLEASE TO DO, liea. The Puppy Wizard ENJOYS
CRUCIFYING YOU and YOUR NAZI PALS:
> --Lia
HOWEDY liea,
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:75fmb.19237$e01.35956@attbi_s02...
>
> Allergies would be my first guess,
INDEEDY. EveryWON likes to blame allergies
and diet for their dog's EMOTIONAL / PHYSICAL
DIS-EASE problems.
> but your veterinarian will have better information.
The veterinary will likely do tests which will find
NO PROBLEM and will likely prescribe STEROIDS
to relieve the INFLAMATION of LICKING DERMATITIS,
an ANXIETY BEHAVIOR PROBLEM.
The Puppy Wizard has been successful for decades
CURING licking dermatitis as it's a common problem
amongst Great Danes, The Puppy Wizard's breed.
> It probably isn't his saliva causing the redness
The redness is inflamation or stain from saliva.
> but the friction from his tongue.
You think the pink is wearin off his tongue, liea?
> --Lia
> (This message will invariably be followed by a
> vicious one from our resident lunatics.
Resident lunatics? You're a CERTIFIED MENTAL
CASE, liea.
> Could you ignore it?
INDEED? You think mentally ill people should
be IGNORED, liea? The Puppy Wizard thinks
mentally ill people should seek TREATMENT
and receive SUPPORT in their rehabilitative
efforts, liea.
The PROBLEM IS, you don't RECOGNIZE that
you're a liar, a dog abuser, and a screamin flamin
MENTAL CASE and hypocrite, liea.
THAT'S the NATURE of MENTAL ILLNESS HOWEver,
so The Puppy Wizard will do EVERY THING HE CAN
to HEELP you RECOGNIZE your MENTAL ILLNESS
and direct you to TREATMENT in a secure mental
health facility for the CRIMINALLY INSANE.
You ask HOWE COME "criminally insane," liea?
Well, what you do to your dog Cubbe IS CRIMINAL
and MENTALLY ILL.
That's HOWE COME The Puppy Wizard sez
you're CRIMINALLY INSANE and requre in
HOWES treatment at a secure STATE facility
for the criminally insane.
> The rest of us have him killfiled.
That so? You're OBSESSED with The Puppy Wizard.
> I'm trying to save time.)
You're a MENTAL CASE a LIAR and a DOG ABUSER, liea.
HERE'S PROOF:
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:
From: Julia Altshuler (jalts...@comcast.net)
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST
Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.
Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.
I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.
Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.
Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.
Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).
Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.
Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.
Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.
A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)
Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?
Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?
--Lia
===================
"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:
Julia F N Altshuler (d000...@dc.seflin.org)
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST
Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.
It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.
For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.
So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.
Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.
We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.
Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.
Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.
My specific questions:
How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?
She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.
What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?
Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.
I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?
Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.
I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.
I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?
--Lia
===================
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DC4A3BD...@attbi.com...
> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <ip93tv0tm8i30mcsj...@4ax.com> charlie...@easynews.com writes:
>>I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice, and I didn't think
>>it sounded bad at all. Of course you don't want to settle down near
>>the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
>>if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
>>tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
>
>Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on fearful, nervous behavior?
>Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
>
Hmmm. The desired behavior is for the dog to relax and become
comfortable in the presence of these older adolescents, right? If the
dog FREAKS OUT when they enter the room, any training should be moved
outdoors so he can get used to their presence from a much greater
distance.
However, if the dog reacts to these kids by barking and shying away
from them, which is what I would expect based on what the OP described
and my experience with a dog whose behavior at that age was quite
similar, Leah's advice will work like a charm.
The reward is tossed on the floor, midway between the object of the
dog's anxiety and his position of safety in the room. The dog is
rewarded for that first baby-step toward getting comfy with these
people -- i.e., advancing a bit to accept the treat they have offered.
Eventually, he will be encouraged to take a treat from their hand.
Thus, the treats reward progress toward the desired behavior. Would
you like quotations from some dog-training books to support this
widely accepted methodology? I can easily provide them.
Charlie
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <ip93tv0tm8i30mcsj...@4ax.com> charlie...@easynews.com writes:
>>I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice, and I didn't think
>>it sounded bad at all. Of course you don't want to settle down near
>>the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
>>if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
>>tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
>
>Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on fearful, nervous behavior?
>Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
__________
"Reward-based techniques are the method of choice when dealing with
fearful or aggressive dogs. If you have dog who's a little afraid of
or doesn't like people, you need to find a way to get the message to
the dog, 'hey buddy, I like you. If you come close, I'll give you a
bit of kibble.' Obviously, using the food as a lure is an effective
way to communicate when the dog is afraid of your voice or physical
contact (in which case you cannot praise or pat). But it is easy to
toss a piece of kibble to the ground. Eventually the dog will come
closer, lured by the kibble first on the ground and then in your
hand."
-- from "Dog-Friendly Dog Training" by Andrea Arden, (c)2000, Howell
Book House
Sionnach
> However, if the dog reacts to these kids by barking and shying away
> from them, which is what I would expect based on what the OP >described
Actually, the OP said the dog had already BITTEN at least one of them, and
had made other attempts at biting.
Sionnach
> toss a piece of kibble to the ground. Eventually the dog will come
> closer, lured by the kibble first on the ground and then in your
> hand."
Of course, the *direct experience* of the two people who objected to
Leah's advice- people who have actually rehabilitated fear-biters, one of
whom has rehabbed a dog of the same breed- contradicts this.
Their experience is that the tossing of food was seen as a hostile act,
and triggered aggression.
My direct experience with fearful strays, as well as in living with an
aggressive dog whose aggression was NOT based in fear, also supports this.
Given that the dog in question HAS BITTEN, and that the behavior described
could well have been protective/dominant, not necessarily fear-based,
concern that the dog might also react aggressively to the food-tossing
method is well-founded.
The Puppy Wizard
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:ovb4tv487jt159p62...@4ax.com...
> On 6 Dec 2003 18:15:21 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
> Dermer) wrote:
>
> >In article <ip93tv0tm8i30mcsj...@4ax.com>
charlie...@easynews.com writes:
>
> >>I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice,
> >>and I didn't think it sounded bad at all.
The Puppy Wizard EXXXPLAINED HOWE COME
that "advice" DOESN'T WORK, Disciple Charlie.
YOU CANNOT BRIBE AWAY FEAR.
> >> Of course you don't want to settle down near
> >> the dog if he's growling or behaving as though
> >> he might attack.
Listen up. The FASTEST way to get a dog to DO
sumpthin is to TELL IT NOT TO DO IT. Like with
GARBAGE EATIN, telling the dog NO makes IT
want to STEAL the trash FASTER, soon as THE
CONTROLLER isn't standin there ready to PUNISH IT.
> >> But,
BUT NUTHIN, Charlie.
> >> if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room,
> >> ignoring him, and tossing some nibbles out on
> >> the floor sounds about right.
It SHOWENDS SUSPICIHOWES to a DOG that
STEALS SCRAPS and RUNS TO HIDE to eat it
with their backs to the wall in a heightened state
of alert.
Didn't you read Nevyn's post abHOWET the two
dangerHOWES pit bulls tied HOWET on a chain
he had to get in on?
That post will articulate HOWE COME we don't
BRIBE, but HOWE TO use food to make pals,
in a serruptitiHOWES manner.
> > Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on
> > fearful, nervous behavior?
If nuthin else Disciple Charlie, perhaps these discussions
will teach you HOWE COME we don't keep company of
liars and dog abusers who'll do and say ANYTHING to
DEFEND HURTING DOGS.
> >Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
professor SCRUFF SHAKE is correct on this point,
although you'll find him offering THE SAME SAME
advice right here for many years.
THAT'S HOWE COME professor SCRUFF SHAKE
can't post here abHOWETS noMOORE.
> Hmmm. The desired behavior is for the dog to relax
That's right, Disciple Charlie. Offering a fearful dog
FOOD makes them SUSPICIHOWES and they'll
often ATTACK to defend their food or chase you off.
melanie and loonie toons BOTH OBSERVED THIS EFFECT.
> and become comfortable in the presence of these
> older adolescents, right?
Would you become comfortable if those adolescents
was likely to get into your stash??? NO. You'd be
suspiciHOWES of their every move and you'd watch
them like a hawk.
> If the dog FREAKS OUT when they enter the room,
Then you make a brief variably alternating distraction
instantly followed by proloned non physical PRAISE
untill the behavior is EXXXTINGUISHED.
Bribing your dog is HOWE COME you COULDN'T
TRAIN HER to INSTANLY accept strangers, Charile.
Your dog may be an accident waitin to happen.
You'll learn the hard way and you'll MURDER Holly
just like Robert Crim and cHOWENTLESS others
have done.
> any training should be moved outdoors
Well Disciple Charlie, that IS a WIZE idea.
> so he can get used to their presence from a
> much greater distance.
HOWEver, it's not necessary if the OP did
ALL of the preliminary EXXXERCISES and
had a good understanding of The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual's Techniques.
> However, if the dog reacts to these kids by
> barking and shying away from them,
WE MAKE A BRIEF VARIABLY ALTERNATING
DISTRACTION INSTANTLY FOLLOWED BY
PROLONGED NON PHYSICAL PRAISE, just
like HOWE we address ANY behavior we want
to EXXXTINGUISH.
> which is what I would expect based on what
> the OP described
What the OP DESCRIBED was JERKIN and CHOKING
his dog according to the ADVICE of his breeder, Charlie.
> and my experience with a dog whose behavior at
> that age was quite similar,
Seems like you was taught better back then, Disciple Charlie.
Have you been LYIN abHOWET your dog's behavior? You
DO remember when you "got scared" abHOWET Holly when
you wasn't gonna be there to FORCE CONTROL or BRIBE her.
Don't you remember THAT, Disciple Charlie? Evidently you
didn't follow The Puppy Wizard's ADVICE cause WE DO
NOT BRIBE BEHAIVORS Disciple Charlie cause THAT
teaches dogs GREED and REINFORCES behavior problems
and lowers the dog's ESTEEM for his handler's AUTHORITY,
Disciple Charlie.
>Leah's advice will work like a charm.
leah is a liar and a dog abuser and a goddamned mental case.
Bribing aggressive dogs is the most infantile ridiculHOWES
dangerHOWES advice anyWON could give... DESPITE
that HOWER veterinary "behaviorists" all recommend
BRIBING FEARFUL DOGS.
> The reward is tossed on the floor, midway between
> the object of the dog's anxiety and his position of
> safety in the room.
You mean INSTEAD of EXXXTINGUISHING the aggressive
THOUGHT NEARLY INSTANTLY through effective scientific
techniques, Disciple Charlie?
> The dog is rewarded for that first baby-step toward
> getting comfy with these people -
OR THE DOG WILL ATTACK, like looney toons and
melanie DISCOVERED and REPORTED RIGHT HERE.
You're beginnig to SCARE The Puppy Wizard, Disciple Charlie.
> - i.e., advancing a bit to accept the treat they have offered.
IN A HEIGHTENED STATE OF ALERT, Disciple Charlie.
> Eventually, he will be encouraged to take a treat from
> their hand.
AND RUN TO HIDE TO EAT IT WITH HIS BACK
TO THE WALL IN A HEIGHTENED STATE OF ALERT.
> Thus, the treats reward progress toward the desired behavior.
NO. Bribing dogs does NOT TEACH THEM TO ACCEPT STRANGERS, as YOU
HAVE DISCOVERED, cause your
dog Holly is STILL HAVIN PROBLEMS for accepting strangers
you tell her are O.K. THAT'S ON ACCHOWENT OF YOUR
GODDAMNED BRIBES, Disciple Charlie.
> Would you like quotations from some dog training
> books to support this
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
You'll be WASTING The Puppy Wizard's time to
review the text and CRUCIFY the author, but if
that will make you HAPPY Disciple Charlie, you
KNOW The Puppy Wizard will be eager to PLEASE
and RE EDUCATE you.
> widely accepted methodology?
The Puppy Wizard has DISCREDITED the EXXXPERTS,
Disciple Charlie. There's NO place for bribes or intimidation
in a learning situation.
> I can easily provide them.
The Puppy Wizard would PREFER you refrain from
posting any EXXXPERT BULLSHIT. But if that'll make
you FEEL better, FIRST, ask Holly to introduce herself
to a big hairy stranger just to VERIFY THAT IT DIDN'T
WORK FOR YOU as YOU THOUGHT IT DID.
YOUR DOG IS STILL SKITTISH CAUSE YOU BRIBED HER.
> Charlie
HOWEDY Nevyn!
"Nevyn" <ne...@webtec.net.au> wrote in message
news:537b0789.03070...@posting.google.com...
>
>Sunday, July 06, 2003 8:13 AM
> Hi Jerry
>
> Can you give me some tips of calming fear agressive and
> abused dogs?
For SHORE!
> and any training tips to turn them back into companions?
It's all in WON day's work, Nevyn.
> They try to kill anyone who approaches them.
SHOWENDS like The Puppy Wizard's kinda dogs.
> They gotta be fed with a bucket on a stick lol.
INDEED?
A very interesting problem. Not for nuthin, but what
happened to their handler, just HOWETA curiHOWEsity?
This is gonna be an exciting challenge.
> Nevyn
First, run your Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will And
A Rooster Did And A Cockatoo Or Two Did Too)
Machine nearby. If there's no electricity, get a 12V
car or motorcycle battery and cut the trainsformer
off and hot wire it to the battery. Wrap them in
plastic to protect them from moisture. Set the
DDR to 8 X D.
Restart the unit and operate it for fifteen minutes
at a time, shutting it off momentarily before restarting
it during the times you're approaching and working
with them, as the first fifteen minutes cycles differently
than the full WON HOWER program.
If possible, discontinue any other human contact
except by you ONLY, during the training and feeding
times. Discontinue feeding them in a bucket at the
end of the stick.
Use your voice the entire time you're nearby, just
to get them used to it. At feeding time DO NOT
offer them food, as that will create food aggression /
fight / flight response.
Praise each eye contact, move, or thought, in
your direction, even if it's aggressive, much as
in the Hot & Cold Exercise, talking gently and
constantly abHOWET nuthin in particular,
avoiding all but very brief eye contact.
After a short while, use the distraction and praise
techniques using the minimum amHOWENT of
sound BEING CERTAIN to always alternate the
direction the sound originates from, for every
instance, day in and day HOWET, to break
any aggressive barking.
BE SNEAKY abHOWET feedin them.
GO AWAY and return with their breakfast but DO
NOT OFFER it to them. Take their chow and sit
safely HOWETA range.
APPEAR to indulge in YOUR breakfast, making NO
eye contact with them, making slurping sHOWEnds
as though you are relishing YOUR breakfast.
Make a PIG HOWETA yourself, giving them furtive,
sideways glances, as you swill dHOWEN "your" chow.
After a reasonable amHOWENT of time, THROW
their grub to them and skeedadle the heel HOWET
A there praising them as you turn to leave, so they
may eat in peace and not feel threatened by your
presents or presence.
Break their grub in to several small servings so you
can repeat this process four times a day, if possible.
After four days, they'll know you as someWON to
look forward to see, comin and goin.
NHOWE comes the tricky part. You're gonna haveta
get them off the chain, as the chain is likely to be their
most overstimulating factor, as in "chained dog syndrome."
If you cross that boundary, you're history.
If you've got a rabies pole, that'll be the safest way to
collect them. Starting with the most friendly of the two,
you'll have to noose them as they're goin for the grub
you've just thrown. Put the loop of the noose on the
grHOWEND just inside their perimeter.
You'll have to be a marksman, as you want them to be at but
not pulling on the end of their chain, as any contact on their
collars will trigger them.
If you've got a partner to distract them from hurtin you, that
may be REAL heelpful.
GENTLY keep them at a distance while they chow dHOWEN
and soon as there's NO MOORE FOOD, make your move to
snatch him up. Be very careful not to apply the noose too
tightly as that'll trigger them or too loosely cause when you
get them off the chain they'll slip HOWET and trigger YOU.
If you don't have a rabies pole, use a heavy duty six foot
leather lead with the runnin end through the handle and
lasso him and snag him up GENTLY, keepin him at arm's
length.
Release the chain and immediately GET HIM THE HEEL
HOWETA HIS TERRITORY. AbHOWET ten feed ought do
it. If you can get him to move further, that's better. We
don't want anything familiar to give him confidence in his
ability to access his safety zone.
THEN, come to a halt and do the Hot & Cold Exercise till
they've settled and then proceed into the Family Pack
Leadership Exercise and install the come command... and
you got yourself a new partner...
If you have any difficulty or questions, feel FREE to ask
Your Puppy Wizard.
Your Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
Oh, bye the bye? The Puppy Wizard got WON question.
HOWE COME you didn't pose this question to HOWER
shelter / rescue EXXXPERT lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
Might that be on accHOWENT of SHE PRHOWEDLY
MURDERS dogs like these?
BEWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
===========================
Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:33 PM
HOWERDY Group,
Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had using JERRYS MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, agressive, pulled
on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought between
each other.
TWO WEEKS using Jerrys manual, they were calm, friends,
my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the girls
had -NO PROBLEMS-with him from the moment I dropped him
by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping at the
fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRYS MANUAL
they were CALMED AND HAVENT BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND WELCOMED HIM
WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH - lock
him in a box?
NO!
USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE !
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT - HAD TO BE
FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK - ONE WEEK ON JERRYS
MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE
PUBLIC KENNELS FOR SALE !Quite amazing to - I thought they
were just dull coloured dogs, but after I had removed the fear
and anxiety their hairs coloured up amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER BALL! She
carried it around all day and night - 3 DAYS on jerrys MANUAL
and she now DROPS it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn
Rafiki Kosmakos
people here. It was NOT a case of a self-promoting "credential" at all.
Lynn K.
The Puppy Wizard
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bqt6bp$rot$1...@uwm.edu...
From: Nevyn (grea...@badmama.com.au)
Subject: Re: thoughts ?
Date: 2003-11-12 19:39:39 PST
Hi Tidds
Personally, if I was completely incompetent and niave
and had no idea about dog training, I would use Mugfords'
method. We sell his Halti at work to people who buy dogs.
However, after using Jerry Howes manual for almost a
year I have devised my own method of training which
incorporates teaching your pet to be well behaved and
being obedient. .
They are conditioned the same way a parent conditions
a child. Parents will create behavioural problems in a child
(and for the rest of his life) if, when they child is doing
something, they always look at the negative aspects.
"Why didn't you get the extra 10% on your test? You
missed a spot of paint on your model train etc..."
Believing that this will drive him to improve
himself, but it doesnt, because we don't think like that.
But, as I do with the dogs i train, if you use the theory
that "Thats wonderful! But its even better if you do it
this way!". This is how i train my dogs. You MUST
praise all behaviour. Doesn't matter if good or bad.
They will always want to please you, and if they can
do it in a better way, they pick it up alot quicker.
When I was studying my vet nursing certificate, my
behavioural studies teacher was trying to teach us
that you must SCREAM IN THE DOGS FACE TO
GET IT UNDER CONTROL. Wow. Her and I spent
nearly 2 hours arguing infront of the class. Not to
mention I was the only male in a class of 20. But
we won't go into that !hehe Needless to say I
managed to make her see the light about getting
dogs to calm themselves.
She now keeps a copy of Jerrys manual on her
desk for reference. Huh. Amazing!
We have behavioural therapists for dogs. Everyone
knows this. We also have behavioural therapists for
people. Did you know that? No, they are not psychologists.
They "train" people, who'se parents mistreated them,
to be able to socialise and be in society, get into the
workforce, be able to live with a spouse, even teach
fathers who were abused how not to abuse their wife
and children.. Now. How would that work if THEY
SCREAMED IN THEIR CLIENTS FACES when they
did something wrong? No. They comfort them, reassure
them, praise them and ask them to try again.
--
Thankyou,
Nevyn
_________________________________
Nevyn E.D.
Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer
grea...@badmama.com.au
"You can judge a man's heart by his treatment of animals"
__________________________________
"Tidds" <nhop...@yahool.com> wrote in message
news:3fb2f583$1...@news.iconz.co.nz...
> Hey all. Im doing a 10 minute teaching session as a part of my
Rafiki Kosmakos
issues, which can be more related to height than distance. Going to
their level can be perceived as a threat they cannot escape. When a
dog reacts to someone coming into their level, it's pretty quick and a
person sitting on the floor can't move fast enough to avoid a bite. I
will admit that I do go to the floor with some frightened dogs, but I
have the experience to choose them carefully, and I always go down to
one knee in the event that I made a bad choice and have to get up
quickly. (and would NEVER toss cookies)
It's fair to discuss how bad advice should be countered, but whether or
not this was bad advice isn't really in question.
Lynn K.
Charlie Wilkes
wrote:
>> But it is easy to
>> toss a piece of kibble to the ground. Eventually the dog will come
>> closer, lured by the kibble first on the ground and then in your
>> hand."
>
> Of course, the *direct experience* of the two people who objected to
>Leah's advice- people who have actually rehabilitated fear-biters, one of
>whom has rehabbed a dog of the same breed- contradicts this.
Right. Lone has a dog who has severely bitten two people while in her
care. My understanding is that, in many jurisdictions, animal control
would confiscate a dog with that track record on the grounds that the
owner can't handle it.
I'm not impressed with peoples' failures, Spinach. I admire success.
I know what worked with my man-aggressive guard dog, and I know what I
have read in books written by professional dog trainers. My
experience and my reading are fully consistent. And I haven't seen
that Lone, or anyone participating in this thread, offers a better
alternative for socializing this dog. All they offer is shrill
hysteria and asshole invective against Leah.
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
"Rafiki Kosmakos" <rafi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24723-3F...@storefull-2175.public.lawson.webtv.net..
.
> Charlie, what you are missing is that many fearful dogs have
> spatial issues, which can be more related to height than
> distance.
That's idiocy.
> Going to their level can be perceived as a threat
> they cannot escape.
Oh? You mean like when you do your sue sternberg
testing to KILL dogs in your "shelters?"
>When a dog reacts to someone coming into their level,
We distract and praise as any other behavior.
> it's pretty quick and a person sitting on
> the floor can't move fast enough to avoid a bite.
Well, we don't DO that to begin with. BUT if that
HAPPENED COINCIDENTALLY, we CONTINUE
with the situation till the behavior is EXXXTINGUISHED.
> I will admit that I do go to the floor with some
> frightened dogs,
Will you likeWIZE ADMIT you're a liar and a
dog abuser and a goddamned mental case?
> but I have the experience to choose them carefully,
That so? Your EXXXPERIENCE is that of a liar and dog
abuser. Tell us all abHOWET your SAR dog Jive, nHOWE
ENJOYIN his RETIREMENT cause YOU COULDN'T
FORCE HIM TO WORK A REAL LIFE SAR SITE cause
YOU CAN'T HURT HIM unless you KNOW where the FIND is.
Same same reaon Jive FAILS in sheep trial.
> and I always go down to one knee in the event that
> I made a bad choice and have to get up quickly.
Well, COWARDICE is always the hallmark of a liar
and abuser, is it not, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
> (and would NEVER toss cookies)
You toss your cookies every time The Puppy Wizard
EXXXPOSES you as a liar and dog abuser.
> It's fair to discuss how bad advice should be countered,
Oh? That's EZ! You and your lyin dog abusin Punk
Thug Coward MENTALLY ILL pals can't post here
noMOORE.
> but whether or not this was bad advice isn't really
> in question.
RIGHT. The Puppy Wizard already SEZ it's BAD ADVICE
and HE EXXXPLAINED HOWE COME it will make SOME
DOGS TURN ON YOU, and THAT was VERIFIED by
looney toons and melanie by their field observation, just
like HOWE The Puppy Wizard SEZ.
> Lynn K.
THIS is HOWE a REAL dog trainer quiets a barkin dog:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
That's MENTALLY ILL, ain't it.
You're a dog abuser, a liar, and a goddamned MENTAL CASE.
Both of you. Here's PROOF:
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her
chronic mental problems.
>>lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
>> depression) will "put down a biter
>> as fast as anyone" yet claims to
>> be a saintly dog rescuer
>>Lynn K. wrote:
>>
>>"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
>>one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
>>schedules and duties causes a great deal of
>>scheduling overhead.
>>
>>And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
>>volunteers get the meaningful experience that
>>they work for.
>>
>>Someone has to be responsible for that
>>Volunteer Program, and it is best done
>>by a non-volunteer."
>>
>>Lynn K.
BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
Charlie Wilkes
It is deeply in question insofar as my experience and reading are
concerned. I would tend to agree that sitting on the floor
(as opposed to a chair) might be risky, but otherwise, the approach
Leah presents is wholly consistent with what many successful trainers
advise.
What alternative methodology would your propose, other than turning
the problem over to an "expert"?
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
andrea arden is the dog abuser who "trained"
john stossel's dog from ABC NEWS.
See The Puppy Wizard's posts to johnny.
HE AIN'T GOT HIS DOG NO GODDAMNED MOORE.
The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:e7f4tv48vtqcnfjia...@4ax.com...
The Puppy Wizard
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in message
news:e7f4tv48vtqcnfjia...@4ax.com...
Marshall Dermer
]On 6 Dec 2003 18:15:21 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
]Dermer) wrote:
]
]]In article <ip93tv0tm8i30mcsj...@4ax.com] charlie...@easynews.com writes:
]]]I went back and read Leah's supposedly bad advice, and I didn't think
]]]it sounded bad at all. Of course you don't want to settle down near
]]]the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
]]]if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
]]]tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
]]
]]Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on fearful, nervous behavior?
]]Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
]]
]Hmmm. The desired behavior is for the dog to relax and become
]comfortable in the presence of these older adolescents, right? If the
]dog FREAKS OUT when they enter the room, any training should be moved
]outdoors so he can get used to their presence from a much greater
]distance.
OK
]
]However, if the dog reacts to these kids by barking and shying away
]from them, which is what I would expect based on what the OP described
]and my experience with a dog whose behavior at that age was quite
]similar, Leah's advice will work like a charm.
OK but it is only an opinion. (So was was mine.)
]The reward is tossed on the floor, midway between the object of the
]dog's anxiety and his position of safety in the room. The dog is
]rewarded for that first baby-step toward getting comfy with these
]people -- i.e., advancing a bit to accept the treat they have offered.
]Eventually, he will be encouraged to take a treat from their hand.
Well, what if the dog is anxious? In your previous post you
were describing tossing treats to the dog when it was anxious.
Now you have changed the context so that the dog is not
behaving anxiously. I think this could make a big difference.
]Thus, the treats reward progress toward the desired behavior. Would
]you like quotations from some dog-training books to support this
]widely accepted methodology? I can easily provide them.
I believe you. I only question tossing the treats to the dog
when the dog is behaving anxiously. Is this what the texts
recommend?
Finally, I must note, that applied behavior analysis as
practiced by certified behavior analysts is quite inductive.
Yes, there is a literature to consult, but the particular
behavior of the client and context are considered. Also,
baseline data are collected and if the treatment fails it
is modified, and more data are collected with this
process continuing until and effective treatment is
found or . . . .
Best wishes,
--Marshall
Marshall Dermer
The proof is whether that method "out of the box" works with a particular
dog. If it does not work then what do you do? My applied behavior
analytic text discusses many procedures for eliminating undesirable
behavior because, I suspect, that no method works with all behaviors.
--Marshall
Lone Hansen
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in message
news:uki4tvkb39udvf8dt...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:48:47 -0500, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> Right. Lone has a dog who has severely bitten two people while in her
> care. My understanding is that, in many jurisdictions, animal control
> would confiscate a dog with that track record on the grounds that the
> owner can't handle it.
>
- Thankfully I don't live in the States. We are not as uptight as many
states are, a dog can actually get a chance here. BTW a vet does run the
risk of getting bitten on the job, am I happy about what happened no, but as
I wasn't there I couldn't do much to prevent it. Besides I haven't yet met
anyone who wanted to try and do a better job with any of my dogs. I often
hear "ohhh a dog that is a challenge.... I would love to give it a try BUT
...." or "I would take the dog ... BUT"
You are quick to get on my case and since you acknowledge the fact that
my dog has bitten, you might want to take the fact that other dogs might
bite to heart. Giving out bad advice on how to handle dogs who might bite is
not helping the dogs or the people who are around those dogs.
That you have look down on me and my experience with aggressive dogs and
don't think that I am worth listening too I can understand but why you
dismiss the knowledge of Lynn and Sarah is beyond me. They actually have a
lot more experience in this field than you have, and unlike you they do know
what they are talking about.
Lone
---
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Version: 6.0.547 / Virus Database: 340 - Release Date: 02/12/2003
Charlie Wilkes
<lo...@zorland.remove.this.bit.net> wrote:
>
>"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in message
>news:uki4tvkb39udvf8dt...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:48:47 -0500, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Right. Lone has a dog who has severely bitten two people while in her
>> care. My understanding is that, in many jurisdictions, animal control
>> would confiscate a dog with that track record on the grounds that the
>> owner can't handle it.
>>
>
> - Thankfully I don't live in the States. We are not as uptight as many
>states are, a dog can actually get a chance here.
The point of "uptight" laws is not to deprive the dog of his chances,
but to deprive an irresponsible owner of an opportunity to further
inflict her poor judgement on the public.
>BTW a vet does run the
>risk of getting bitten on the job, am I happy about what happened no, but as
Not if he muzzles the fucken dog per owner's instructions, and not if
the dog is taught to accept such handling in slow, patient increments.
>I wasn't there I couldn't do much to prevent it. Besides I haven't yet met
>anyone who wanted to try and do a better job with any of my dogs. I often
>hear "ohhh a dog that is a challenge.... I would love to give it a try BUT
>...." or "I would take the dog ... BUT"
>
> You are quick to get on my case and since you acknowledge the fact that
You were quick enough to jump on Leah's case, with a response that was
insulting, patronizing, wrought with female emotion, and empty of
content. I happen to agree with Leah's advice in its broad strokes,
and I offer both personal experience and expert opinion to support my
view.
>my dog has bitten, you might want to take the fact that other dogs might
>bite to heart. Giving out bad advice on how to handle dogs who might bite is
>not helping the dogs or the people who are around those dogs.
> That you have look down on me and my experience with aggressive dogs and
>don't think that I am worth listening too I can understand but why you
>dismiss the knowledge of Lynn and Sarah is beyond me. They actually have a
>lot more experience in this field than you have, and unlike you they do know
>what they are talking about.
>
I don't dismiss their knowledge. I don't know what the hell their
knowledge is on this subject, because they haven't lined out their
program for dealing with this dog, and nor have you.
Charlie
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
I think there is such a thing as a hardened, man-aggressive dog who
will seize an opportunity to attack and potentially kill human prey.
No such dog should be handled by me or you or anyone who is not a bona
fide expert. I don't think the OP's six-month-old GSD is such an
animal, yet. I think one of those kids could wander into the TV room
while the owner controls the dog, sit on the couch OR the floor, and
gently roll a bit of hotdog in the direction of the dog. The owner
can then release the dog and see if he attacks the kid. I doubt if he
will. I think he'll pick up the snack and start to calm down.
Just my informed intuition.
Charlie
Marshall Dermer
>On 6 Dec 2003 21:50:47 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
>Dermer) wrote:
>>The proof is whether that method "out of the box" works with a particular
>>dog. If it does not work then what do you do? My applied behavior
>>analytic text discusses many procedures for eliminating undesirable
>>behavior because, I suspect, that no method works with all behaviors.
>>
>>--Marshall
>
>I think there is such a thing as a hardened, man-aggressive dog who
>will seize an opportunity to attack and potentially kill human prey.
>Just my informed intuition.
>
>Charlie
You seem to have changed the topic. Why do you think an "out
of the box method" will always work?
As for "hardened, man-agressive dog[s]" such a description
tells us nothing about the reasons (environmental variables)
that control such behavior.
Aggessive behavior and its behavioral precursors are almost always
under the control of environmental events. If you make it
impossible for the aggession-producing events to occur then there
is no aggression. This approach is certainly not a "cure" for the
aggression but it is one way to control it.
As a behavior analyst my first assumption is that behavior is under
the control of specific environmental events. Most people, in
contrast, assume that behavior is somehow invariant over time,
place, etc. I think that is why so many people tend to explain or
describe behavior in terms of attitudes, and traits (introversion,
neuroticism, etc.) including "hardened, man-aggressive dog."
--Marshall
Lone Hansen
> The point of "uptight" laws is not to deprive the dog of his chances,
> but to deprive an irresponsible owner of an opportunity to further
> inflict her poor judgement on the public.
- I haven't heard anything from you that shows that you have any skill
or understanding in handling a dog with aggression issues. The only thing
that you have showed so far is a willingness to show just how little you
know and an ability to quote text from books. Neither skill will get you
very far in RL. Nor will they be able to help any dog or owner, but then it
seems as if you aren't here to learn or help but to sling mud and try to
start pissing contests.
I am not going into a pissing contest with you. Unlike you I have better
things to do besides I really don't care what you think of me, my dogs, my
ability to handle them etc.
Now why don't you crawl back under the rock you came from ?
Charlie Wilkes
<lo...@zorland.remove.this.bit.net> wrote:
>>
>> The point of "uptight" laws is not to deprive the dog of his chances,
>> but to deprive an irresponsible owner of an opportunity to further
>> inflict her poor judgement on the public.
>
> - I haven't heard anything from you that shows that you have any skill
>or understanding in handling a dog with aggression issues. The only thing
>that you have showed so far is a willingness to show just how little you
>know and an ability to quote text from books. Neither skill will get you
>very far in RL. Nor will they be able to help any dog or owner, but then it
>seems as if you aren't here to learn or help but to sling mud and try to
>start pissing contests.
My dog has not bitten anyone in RL. How about yours?
> I am not going into a pissing contest with you. Unlike you I have better
>things to do besides I really don't care what you think of me, my dogs, my
>ability to handle them etc.
>
> Now why don't you crawl back under the rock you came from ?
>
It's being renovated and until they're done, I have to live up here on
the surface with all you more lovable types.
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
"whitespc1" <whit...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:yZmdnZUaVvE...@comcast.com...
> Puppy Wiz,
> You probably have a lot of good things to add,
Yeah. What kinda meds are you on? Try some of these.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> ================
>
>>lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
>> depression) will "put down a biter
>> as fast as anyone" yet claims to
>> be a saintly dog rescuer
>>Lynn K. wrote:
>>
>>"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
>>one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
>>schedules and duties causes a great deal of
>>scheduling overhead.
>>
>>And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
>>volunteers get the meaningful experience that
>>they work for.
>>
>>Someone has to be responsible for that
>>Volunteer Program, and it is best done
>>by a non-volunteer."
>>
>>Lynn K.
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
>>every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
>>effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
>>older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
>>
>>Should I have refused to groom them?
>>
>>Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
>>had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
>>
>>Lynn K.
>>--------------------------------------
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.
Are those MENTAL CASES, or NOT?
Here's MOORE:
Kelly/ severe OCD, ADD, major depression with
culprit psychotic features, panic and more. Coming
forward so that others like her will have the
strength to do the same. Like Charlie Wilkes,
she is one of our most entertraining regulars
Here, kelly/culprit talks to Mustang Sally
about her mental illness/crazy problems.
Sally is being rude and condescending (as usual)
and trying to make kelly/culprit feel bad for
being crazy, aka wacked in the head
culprit standing up for herself against rude and
condescending Mustang Sally
-----------------------------------------------
well i wouldn't consider myself mentally healthy. though
i'll refrain from calling myself ill if it makes you feel
better. and no, ADD is not the major problem, i certainly
know that, i just mentioned it because of the impulsivity issues.
i wasn't trying to imply i'm disabled by it.
but i stand by the fact that OCD is an illness, major
depression with psychotic features certainly is, panic
disorder is too. and the other stuff just makes it all
the more fun.
i don't wallow in it. i'm just now learning to accept it,
because ignoring it wasn't working out too well. i need
to do that to make changes to my life so that i can become
healthy. and you say you're not trying to be condescending,
but you're doing it again. what i read was, (my paraphrasing)
"people who think they're mentally ill are wallowing in their
disabilities and letting them consume their life" you come
across as though you would be able to handle any of these
illnesses, and anyone who can't is just copping out.
well we're all different. and i don't accept your idea that i
would have a more productive life if i denied my problems.
i tried it for years, and believe me, it didn't work very well.
-kelly
--------------------------------------------
From: culprit (cul...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: another eevil pit bull story
Date: 2003-10-08 08:47:43 PST
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3F842E58...@ig.utexas.edu...
>
> Yep there it is NAMI. And yes ADHD or ADD or considered as a
mental
> illness in which one can apply for many different things even in
the work
> force in which they are suppose to accomodate you to help
improve
> your condition.
>
> But I don't care to go there so I am one of those untreated ADHD
> people in the world. Whatever I am nearly 50 and have gotten
along
> just fine. Or so I feel fulfilled.
yeah, i'm pretty sure i could qualify for all sorts of disability
stuff (the OCD and ADD are just the tip of my iceberg). but
i don't. i know i can function well enough to do my job, i'll
leave the benefits for those that really need them.
mine is mostly a social impairment. go figure. :-)
-kelly
From: sighthounds etc. (greypi...@ncweb.com)
Subject: Re: another eevil pit bull story
Date: 2003-10-08 09:12:56 PST
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:33:44 -0500, Gwen Watson
<gw...@ig.utexas.edu>
wrote:
>
>culprit wrote:
>
>> "sighthounds etc." <greypi...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
>> news:f8b8ov46ctu1ds18o...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> > ADD and OCD are mental illnesses?
>> >
>>
>> oh, BTW...
>>
>>
http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_M
ental_Illness/About_Mental_Illness.htm
>>
>> -kelly
>
>Yep there it is NAMI. And yes ADHD or ADD or considered as a
>mental illness in which one can apply for many different things
even
>in the work force in which they are suppose to accomodate you to
> help improve your condition.
>
>But I don't care to go there so I am one of those untreated ADHD
>people in the world. Whatever I am nearly 50 and have gotten
along
>just fine. Or so I feel fulfilled.
I guess this is just one of those instances in which I feel that
the
US is turning into a nation of victims. And please, don't anybody
jump all over me, because I am not talking about anyone
personally.
Everything seems to be a compensatable (not sure if that's
actually a word) disability. If 3/4 of the people are physically
disabled or mentally ill, what's 'normal'?
Terrible parents, painful childhoods, physical illnesses,
psychological problems, etc. are all part of who a person is,
and therefore how s/he sees the world and interacts in it.
But life isn't about who you are and what you've got, it's what
you do with it.
For me anyway, the more I think of myself as partially disabled,
the more I am that way.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound like Dr. Phil.
Mustang Sally
---------------------
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.
MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*
Mental illness is a public issue in these newsgroups.
People are always running around calling other people
mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it's only
fair that we have an accurate list of who is and who isn't
mentally ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings
and promote group harmony.
------------------------------------------
here is our latest crazy person update, including our
latest wacko, kelly aka, culprit, a systems engineer
at Microsoft, proving that Bill Gates does not discriminate
against crazy people.
RPD* Ment_ally Ill All_StaRz as of 10/9/03
-----------------------------------------------
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> ================
>
>>lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
>> depression) will "put down a biter
>> as fast as anyone" yet claims to
>> be a saintly dog rescuer
>>Lynn K. wrote:
>>
>>"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
>>one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
>>schedules and duties causes a great deal of
>>scheduling overhead.
>>
>>And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
>>volunteers get the meaningful experience that
>>they work for.
>>
>>Someone has to be responsible for that
>>Volunteer Program, and it is best done
>>by a non-volunteer."
>>
>>Lynn K.
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
>>every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
>>effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
>>older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
>>
>>Should I have refused to groom them?
>>
>>Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
>>had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
>>
>>Lynn K.
>>--------------------------------------
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.
Are those MENTAL CASES, or NOT?
Updated KUCKOO!! KUCKOOO! DING! DING! DING!
list as of 10/09/2003:
list of confirmed or suspected mentally ill (crazy) Regulars
Most of whom are women or homosexuals
=======================================
NESSA Successfully dethroned MaryBeth as MVP
NUTCASE (Most Valuable Psycho) of dog newsgroups
MVP Nessa blames all the problems in her life most on
ADD ADHD Or some other empowering acronymval which encapsulates
her futility for her psycho her dog bagel has
used her house liberally as a toilet since February of 2002.
Drives a 2003 Toyota Matrix, owns a house in suburban MD, recently
got a raise/promotion to US goverment grade 11
(circa $50,000) and promptly decided she couldn't afford her
two dogs. With help from non crazy regular (Paulette) and
witchcraft practicing regular Sara Sionnach, Nessa has decided to
keep her dogs for the time being. She is undergoing training
from Janet "Nice Abdominal Surgery and getting Run Over for
the Family Pet." Her results have not been dramatic.
CrAzy ReGulAr helping CraZy ReGular
Leah helping Nessa
=============================
On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 8:40:08 -0400, Leah wrote
Nessa use...@nessa.info wrote:
"As far as the depression goes, it's not
related to Bagel at all. I have chronic
major depression and I'm just having
a flare."
Leah asks
> Are you on any medication?
yes for depression, mood swings and ADHD.
I have been for over 10 years.
--nessa
Nessa is Fat as well as crazy
=============================
"For what it's worth...
I picked up 30 pounds when I started
Dilantin. I picked up (just recently) another
20 on risperidol.
I hate that I was a size 8-10 before meds and
now I am solidly (pun intended) a 22-24.
Sad part is, the side effects are worth it.
The positive effects
are too much to part with."
--nessa
NESSA'S HAS A GREAT NEUROPSYCH
==============================
Hi, I have a great neuropsych in Arlington Va.
He is at the Rosyln Metro Station. His name is
Martin Stein
1911 N Fort Myer Dr.
Suite 907
Arlington Va 22209
703-807-2471
email 75120...@compuserve.com
Marty is wonderful. He is really the best.
He has also given me permission to post his
infomation on this Newsgroup. If you call
him and see him by all means tell him Nessa
sent you.
--nessa
ROTATE YOUR STIMULANTS
=============================
from: Nessa (ne...@ix.netcom.com)
Hi,
I often have to rotate my stimulants.
You can become used to them and sometimes
need a different one for a while. Until I
got on my Desoxyn I rotated Ritilan and
Dexedrine every 3 months or so.
It is true that anti-depressants or
anti-anxiety pills will help with the
stimulants so your DR is not wrong. However,
perhaps she needs to check into the idea that
a switch from cylert to something else might
be in order.
warm thoughts,
Nessa
Kelly/ severe OCD, ADD, major depression with
culprit psychotic features, panic and more. Coming
forward so that others like her will have the
strength to do the same. Like Charlie Wilkes,
she is one of our most entertraining regulars
Here, kelly/culprit talks to Mustang Sally
about her mental illness/crazy problems.
Sally is being rude and condescending (as usual)
and trying to make kelly/culprit feel bad for
being crazy, aka wacked in the head
culprit standing up for herself against rude and
condescending Mustang Sally
-----------------------------------------------
but i stand by the fact that OCD is an illness, major
depression with psychotic features certainly is, panic
disorder is too. and the other stuff just makes it all
the more fun.
i don't wallow in it. i'm just now learning to accept it,
because ignoring it wasn't working out too well. i need
to do that to make changes to my life so that i can become
healthy. and you say you're not trying to be condescending,
but you're doing it again. what i read was, (my paraphrasing)
"people who think they're mentally ill are wallowing in their
disabilities and letting them consume their life" you come
across as though you would be able to handle any of these
illnesses, and anyone who can't is just copping out.
well we're all different. and i don't accept your idea that i
would
have a more productive life if i denied my problems. i tried it
for years, and believe me, it didn't work very well.
-kelly
--------------------------------------------
MaryBeth
FMVP (former most valuable psycho)
Has contributed greatly to the annual profit
(super psycho results at several large pharmaceutical corps
bitch lunatic has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy)
queen of the drug treatment in the book, and then some:
mentally prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax,
fucked in the head
effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,clomid,
has suffered from or been:
suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of PMS,
mood swings, turned into a hermit, bloated,
just real angry, hubby afraid of her, high
blood pressure, divorced, "raving bitch"
"zoloft zombie" for four years, "living
through layers and layers of gauze," chain
smoker, buzzing, weight gain, fatigue,
terrible dry mouth, dull headaches, fuzzy
brain, lack of concentration..etc.
severe depression, severe insomnia, Panic
ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you name
it...etc...
MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!
aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell
"I know for a fact I went thru years of
being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
being self centered, being self pitying,
you name it, I was a wreck and I ran over
everyone in my path."
"<G> I do know the power of meds, especially
on a long term basis, and it's not pretty.
You become another person, if it's not the
correct med for you.
--All the best,
MaryBeth
"Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
Rheumatologist told me that taking
Ultram with it can cause seizures."
"I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at
times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to see
my doc next Friday to test for menopause."
--MaryBeth
"I noticed that antidepressants cut libido
into the dead zone and I had no real emotions,
like not laughing at funny stuff, couldn't cry
either.....except about my suicidal thoughts
(but at the time I thought there was no other
way out)."
--MaryBeth
"Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid today.
I talked with RE and pharmacist re: zoloft (50
mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid. They
reported none. Not sure about the prozac tho.
Gonna poat a new message to intorduce
myself :)"
--MaryBeth <still feeling
like herself> <G>
"I wasted about 10 years of my life, and lost
many many treasured ppl and things. Please
don't do the same. (((((((SCOUT))))))))))
--MaryBeth
"Slowly but surely my depression got worse and
worse. They put me on meds for it, and all
along kept telling me to wait on the TKR, as
'it really wasn't that bad.....yet". HA!"
The depression got so bad, and lots of other
things happened and my ex and I would up
divorced four years after our move. It was
horrible. The hardest thing I have eve gone
thru"
--MaryBeth
Theresa (paxil, depression, robot displacement)
Willis Theresa is a gang banger who comes out
of cutesy robot mode when it's time to
gang attack people with her pal shelly
shelly
couvrette Severe OCD, depression, prescribed Paxil
for mental illness, but claims she does
not take it,
resulting in an obsessive basket case
online persona. Posts more than any
other female in all dog newsgroups
(familial mental illness, possibly related
to family bed) obsessively starves her
dogs according to friends, family,
strangers and 3 different vets, but
not herself (see below). Still thinks
of herself as a five year old ballerina
despite the fact that she is a fat
adult in her mid thirties.
lynn RPD* Enemy of Dogs #1
kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a biter
as fast as anyone" yet claims to
be a saintly dog rescuer.
Murders dogs because of insurance rates
Her brother was attacked by a Golden
Retriever when she was young. For
this reason, she murders easily
trainable dogs. Condemns dogs to
death who are easily trainable.
Is nice to people in person, but
her true dog hating nature comes
out on newsgroups with
extreme clarity.
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her
chronic mental problems.
Leah is improving as a dog trainer and wants
to open her own training/boarding kennel soon.
This drives her fellow mentally ill regulars nuts
(read shelly), especially if Leah succeeds while
other loonies continue to sit on their fat behinds
Tara Green was on antidepressants for a few years
prior to her marriage. During her
marriage, she learned a lot:
"With the therapist I saw during my
marriage I learned that some
situational depressions are masked as
chemical simply because of our too human
ability to prolong the impact of the
causal situations indefinitely"
Sounds like more denial, see leah
Tara is also a drunk who has also had
problems with other substances
TARA on being a drunk/substance abuser:
"Tara (who had some problems with quite a
few substances as well, but who thinks they
are separate issues.....so which camp does
that put me in???)"
"Believe it or not, some people don't have
a problem with drugs even though they are
alcoholics. I'm not one of those people,
but they do exist."
aka, tara has problems with both
Kevin various mental illness drugs, started with
Michael zoloft, didn't like that, then went to
Vail antidepressant, stopped after sufficent
side effects, now on SSRI and in therapy
Furpaw (SSRI, cognitive therapy)
Chris Jung (Prozac and Welbutrin, cognitive therapy)
Charlie drugged out, crazy, fucked up all his
Wilkes life, Christ the shit he's been through
including psych wards and electroshock
treatments but now pulling down major cash
as a business consultant. Triumphing over
adversity, with a damn good life and a
well trained dog (very much unlike Leah)
One of our most lucid regulars, despite
(or maybe because of?) a penchant for dope
smoking.
Karen
DuChateaux suffered from clinical depression for years
aka Karibear until some drug or something brought her out
of it. Some of her best friends "are
certifiable" and have various degrees of
psychoses. Familial mental disability.
Refuses to say whether or not she is
currently using drug or cognitive therapy
for mental illness.
Mike
"DumbOxDumb" threatened non violent dog expert Jerry Howe
Dufort with Mike's fully armed US Army Platoon.
Threatened to bring his platoon to Jerry's
HOWSE. also OCD (obsessed with Jerry's posts)
Jim "Brain
Shivers" Jim is currently on Effexor which he takes
Sabatke because of his depression/mental problems.
Like many of our mental cases, Jim has had
trouble finding the right med(s) to keep him
from going kuckoo!! kuckoooo!!! or getting
the "brain shivers"
From: Jim Sabatke (jsab...@execpc.com)
Subject: Re: anyone using Effexor?
alt.support.depression.medication
Date: 2002-11-29 20:25:16 PST
EFFEXOR
"I'm on 375 mg/day and it has worked
wonders for me. The only down side is
that my blood pressure has elevated
somewhat; oh and if I miss a dose by a
couple of hours the "brain shivers" can
be really bad.
Good luck!
Jim"
"I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
5 months ago. I tapered off of the Paxil
and tapered onto the Effexor at the same
time."
Jim
"After several years on Effexor IR, my
pdoc tried switching me to XR. I
experienced fairly severe Effexor
withdrawel until I went back to the IR."
Jim
<YOUR NAME GOES HERE>
(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders
specific to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come
forward, we can help each other with our problems.
Remember, mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.
It's not your fault if you have a defective brain which
may cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite and/or
idiot and/or robot without your being aware of it).
Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and
have been added to this by mistake, so we can make
our corrections and remove you from the crazy person list.
--
mental health weekly
===========================================
The Puppy Wizard
"Lee DeRaud" <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:vp04tvo6foni4d7rd...@4ax.com...
>
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:39:46 -0500, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Leah often gives good advice; it's just that she's new
> >to dog training, and has a habit of also giving advice
> >on matters she doesn't have sufficient experience with.
> >One of the problems with that is that because she's
> >employed as a low-level beginning obedience/puppy
> >trainer at PetsMart, she has a title to add to her name
> >which gives that bad advice more weight.
>
> I'm sorry, you *completely* lost me at this point. At the
> risk of indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that
> the fact that Leah persists in adding this "credential"
leah's credentials are that she's been bitten five times
abusing her dog and a couple times at pest mart teachin
"RESTRAINT TECHNIQUES," whatever THAT is.
> to her posts is no less deceptive than Jerry's "testimonials",
You mean The Puppy Wizard's FORGERIES, lee?
> if for no other reason than that she is (IMHO)
> *consciously* using it to give her advice (good
> or bad) more weight.
You're a mental case and a liar and a dog abuser,
like leah and sinofabitch and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn and many others on this forum.
> (I wouldn't mind seeing a line added to Lia's periodic
> 'newcomer briefing' to the effect that any self-advertisement
> of this sort is only worth the pixels it's displayed on.)
leah HURTS INTIMIDATES and BRIBES dogs.
> >Nobody wants to "punish" Leah's bad advice,
leah prefers pronged spiked pinch choke collars
to teach trust love and respect.
> >and nobody called her names.
leah is a mental case, a pathological liar.
> >Geez- where's Marshall Worth when we need
> > him to continue his crusade against the evils
> > of hyperbole?
professor SCRUFF SHAKE is a coward and
a liar and a dog abuser. His own dog has The
Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.
> "It's EEEVILLL, I tell 'ya!!!
That's O.K. lee. They can't post here abHOWETS
noMOORE cause they're dog abusers liars and
mental cases, lee.
> Hyperbole will cause the downfall of all
> that we hold dear!!!!"
The Puppy Wizard can't even SPELL it.
> Lee
You an professor SCRUFF SHAKE can't post
here abHOWETS noMOORE either.
The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <qjm4tvgruk9jbj3qs...@4ax.com> charlie...@users.easynews.com writes:
>>On 6 Dec 2003 21:50:47 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
>>Dermer) wrote:
>
>>>The proof is whether that method "out of the box" works with a particular
>>>dog. If it does not work then what do you do? My applied behavior
>>>analytic text discusses many procedures for eliminating undesirable
>>>behavior because, I suspect, that no method works with all behaviors.
>>>
>>>--Marshall
>>
>>I think there is such a thing as a hardened, man-aggressive dog who
>>will seize an opportunity to attack and potentially kill human prey.
>>Just my informed intuition.
>>
>>Charlie
>
> You seem to have changed the topic. Why do you think an "out
> of the box method" will always work?
I'm not trying to evade your questions, nor do I claim to have all the
answers.
I maintain that the approach Leah lined out is consistent with what a
number of professional trainers recommend, and it is precisely the
approach I used successfully to socialize my aggressive dog with
certain people. I do not assume this approach will always work,
i.e., with every dog in every situation.
>
> As for "hardened, man-agressive dog[s]" such a description
> tells us nothing about the reasons (environmental variables)
> that control such behavior.
No. I had in mind the bloody dog attack that happened in Colorado a
few days ago. Have you read about those dogs? I would apply the
label above to them.
>
> Aggessive behavior and its behavioral precursors are almost always
> under the control of environmental events. If you make it
> impossible for the aggession-producing events to occur then there
> is no aggression. This approach is certainly not a "cure" for the
> aggression but it is one way to control it.
>
> As a behavior analyst my first assumption is that behavior is under
> the control of specific environmental events. Most people, in
> contrast, assume that behavior is somehow invariant over time,
> place, etc. I think that is why so many people tend to explain or
> describe behavior in terms of attitudes, and traits (introversion,
> neuroticism, etc.) including "hardened, man-aggressive dog."
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but I don't see how it
applies to the discussion at hand.
Charlie
Leah
>I maintain that the approach Leah lined out is consistent with what a
>number of professional trainers recommend, and it is precisely the
>approach I used successfully to socialize my aggressive dog with
>certain people. I do not assume this approach will always work,
>i.e., with every dog in every situation.
May I add that I also said, in my post to the OP, that if the dog has bitten
and broken skin NOT to try this approach, but to keep the kids away until a
professional behaviorist has evaluated the dog.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
ChadL
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bqsrba$26qc3v$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > From what I've read, it seems that the
> > argument for attacking another poster that gives bad advice rests upon
the
> > premise that people new to this newsgroup need to be warned against a
> person
> > who gives chronically bad advice.
>
> Wrong. In the first place, nobody "attacked" Leah in that thread.
Wrong? Then what do you call these samples below? Are they not indeed
attacks on one's person or character without support or relevance to the
main conclusion?
"...you have no clue what so ever of what you are doing." 12/2/03_ LH (with
zero support of this personal attack).
"Leah, you don't know what you're talking about ..." __ MLC 12/2/03 (said
without support of personal attack)
"Sure, except that Leah -is- generally misinformed." 12/2/03 _MLC
"Now, what _I wanted to post in response to Leah's <ahem> advice? Most
definitely aggressive and angry...
zero tolerance for idjits mucking with dogs, and damned cranky to boot"
12/5/05__DS
Second,
> it wasn't a matter of "warning against chronically bad advice".
Ultimately I agree, but probably not for the same reason. Please, then, WHAT
was the matter about? Why would anyone care if she gives bad advice or
not, if the matter wasn't about her giving "chronically bad advice" that
could harm an animal or human? I would hope that people WOULD want to warn
against bad advice (especially if it's chronic!), so I don't understand why
you would even think about contending with this point.
> Leah often gives good advice; it's just that she's new to dog training,
> and has a habit of also giving advice on matters she doesn't have
sufficient
> experience with. One of the problems with that is that because she's
> employed as a low-level beginning obedience/puppy trainer at PetsMart, she
> has a title to add to her name which gives that bad advice more weight.
This, of course, may be a legitimate concern.
> And because she DOES work at PetsMart, and has many people approach her
> in RL for advice as well, many in here feel it's important to let her know
> when her advice is off-base.
And you don't call the way they've done that an attempt to punish her shaky
advice giving behavior? (and I use the word "punishment" in strictly
operational terms, which I think all animal trainors should).
>
> On top of that, she has a very long history - a history that goes back
> several years before she got the job at PetsMart- of starting
controversial
> threads in here. Many people (I am not one of them) feel that she does so
> deliberately.
While this may or may not be true, how -- exactly -- is that NOT
circumstantial in regard to the points made in the OP of this thread?
> perhaps (2) PUNISH Leah's chronically bad advice giving
> > behavior. (e.g., by calling her names such as "idjit", etc.)
>
> Nobody wants to "punish" Leah's bad advice, and nobody called her names.
For the first idea you express (which seems a bit presumptuous, speaking for
everybody), I say, "nobody __wants__ to call the police on their neighbors,
but if they think it will stop the husband from beating the wife, they'll do
it anyway". Of course they _want_ to punish leah's bad advice! (who
wouldn't if they could be successful at it?) You're probably just overly
reluctant to use the word "punishment".
> Geez- where's Marshall Worth when we need him to continue his crusade
> against the evils of hyperbole?
>
> I imagine that this attempt at
> > punishment has been tried before with this particular so-called "chronic
> > giver of bad advice" -- so has it been effective?
>
> Not in the exaggerated form you're talking about,
and how exactly has it been exaggerated? Punishment is punishment. It is
neither good nor bad. It does not have to be physically or mentally
scarring.
but yes, Leah *does*
> listen and learn. She'll tell you herself that she's learned from this
> group.
>
>
>
>
> > that should tell you that your emotionally charged warnings are not as
> > effective as they should be according to your premise that you want to
> > prevent people from taking bad advice -- a premise that you unjustly use
> to
> > justify your abuse.
>
> Spare us the overblown rhetoric, please. Nobody was "abusive" towards
> Leah.
Firstly, an attack against the person, is also known as a fallicious abusive
argument ("argumentum ad hominem"). People were saying that 'leah didn't
know what she was talking about, is an idjit, is clueless, and generally
misinformed' -- and _therefore_ she should not be listened too because her
advice can hurt or kill. What I and one other person have pointed out, is
that those personal attacks are unnecessary, ineffective, and
counterproductive toward supporting the conclusion that her advice
is bad.
Secondly, if attempts at punishment (whether you _want_ to punish or not is
irrelivant, if you are indeed TRYING to punish -- whether you are ignorant
of what your are doing or what "punishment" is or not) are chronically
unsuccessful, and without regard to consequence, then it is no longer
punishment -- it IS abuse. Is it the worst kind of abuse that one can do?
no. Should one go to jail for it? no. Should one be publicly humiliated for
it? no. But that is beside the very clear point.
Rafiki Kosmakos
levels of fear, shyness, etc., including dogs that will react very, very
badly to someone joining them on the floor and tossing treats.
The very fact that there are so many differences is why no one
responsible is going to tell Bill exactly what to do with his dog. We
haven't seen the dog and therefore can't predict the dog's response to
any action. In general, however, you want to habituate the dog to the
situations that have provided stress in the past, reinforcing all
positive interactions the dog initiates, and introduce some
well-selected leadership exercises to normalize the dog's relationship
to humans in general. The selection of methods to do those things
requires knowledge of the individual dog.
Lynn K.
Rafiki Kosmakos
creature and most are not at all food motivated, but are very, very wary
of motion. (I deal with literally hundreds of 6 month old GSDs a year.)
While it might work very well with a shy Golden at that age, it is just
as likely to backfire badly with Bill's dog.
Lynn K.
Charlie Wilkes
Well, Lynn, my intuition is informed by my experience and what I have
read, and I will grant you it is not breed-specific.
But, the guy came looking for advice, and Leah was the only one who
gave him any. The next thing he knew, he was in the pit with all the
lady tigers.
So, considering what you know about the breed and Bill's problem,
would it be reasonable for him to tether the dog and have the young
man enter the room, ignore him, and sit on the couch? If the dog
doesn't freak out and start lunging, perhaps the guy could very
carefully set a meat-filled kong on the floor, and the handler could
extend the dog's tether long enough to reach it but not the young man,
as a first step toward breaking the ice.
This is loosely based on the method outlined in "Breaking Bad Habits
in Dogs" by Colin Tennant. He recommends that the dog be tethered a
few minutes before the arrival of the visitor.
What do you think?
Charlie
Sionnach
> The very fact that there are so many differences is why no one
> responsible is going to tell Bill exactly what to do with his dog.
Particularly not since he described the dog as having already bitten at
least once.
Sionnach
> May I add that I also said, in my post to the OP, that if the dog has
bitten
> and broken skin NOT to try this approach, but to keep the kids away until
a
> professional behaviorist has evaluated the dog.
Leah, I'm sorry, but that's really not accurate.
Your *first* response to the poster gave a detailed description of what
to do, and you ended it by saying (I'm paraphrasig slightly) "This dog
should really be seen by a behaviorist- but in the meantime, do what I say."
And THAT post is what Lone reacted to. You qualified your advice -saying
that you should have added the bit about seeing a behaviourist if the dog
had bitten- in a post to Lone the next day.
Further down in the thread, you said that you, personally, would try your
method FIRST with a "dog like that", then refer to a behaviourist "if the
dog didn't respond". That's the post that *I* hollered about- because a dog
like that (sounds like a sharp/shy GSD, who has already used teeth at a
young age) might very well "respond" by lunging and biting you - and if
you're down on the dog's level, that bite is most likely going to be to your
face.
Once that happens- particularly if it happens in the middle of PetsMart -
it's too late, for both you and the dog.
As Lone said: THINK. How fast did that Aussie nail you in the leg? And
she wasn't really trying to do damage.
Leah, until you've been seriously bitten, or seen a serious attack on
someone else (or another dog), I don't think you can really appreciate the
tremendous ease and incredible speed with which a dog can put teeth inches
into flesh.
Sionnach
>
> Wrong? Then what do you call these samples below? Are they not indeed
> attacks on one's person or character without support or relevance to the
> main conclusion?
Nope. In the first place, they are not addressed to Leah's "person or
character", though taken out of context (as you are doing) it's harder to
see that.
The first two are criticisms -valid ones - of her lack of experience or
training in dealing with aggressive dogs.
I believe the third one is also, though it's additionally addressing her
overall lack of training and experience.
The fourth isn't even aimed directly at Leah- it's one person describing
how she felt about Leah's bad advice, why she decided NOT to respond, and a
general statement about "idgits". That one does, indirectly, call Leah an
"idgit".
However, it is also directly addressing the fact that Leah's advice could
have gotten someone bitten, as well as the fact that she clearly stated that
she, personally, would try to deal with an aggressive dog herself BEFORE
referring to someone properly qualified.
That *would* be a stupid thing to do - not only because she could get
bitten, which could cause the death of the dog (which is what is meant by
"mucking with dogs")- but because, according to the rules of her employment,
she is NOT supposed to try to deal with aggression cases.
She is *required* to refer cases like that WITHOUT first attempting to
deal with them- for the very same reasons that people in here are objecting
to her giving advice on a matter of aggression.
She is a beginning trainer, who really shouldn't be on her own; she's at
the point where most people would still be working as an apprentice. It's
really not her fault that PetsMart does things in such an idiotic way, but
it IS her fault if she takes on things she isn't qualified to handle, and
makes things worse.
IOW, the remarks do, indeed, have direct relevance to the main conclusion-
which is that Leah should not, in a matter involving a dog's aggressive
behaviour towards family members, be telling people "try this method of
mine until you can see a behaviorist".
The secondary issue is that many people get exasperated- and rightfully
so- when Leah does things like this. This is a community, Leah is a member
of this community -by her own choice- and people are entitled both to have
feelings about her behaviour and to express them to and about her.
As far as other posters' comments not having "support" - we're not writing
for academic publication here, nor is this a formal debate.
Writing in here is a form of ongoing dialouge or conversation, which in
many cases - including Leah's- goes back many years. Their comments are
supported by Leah's posting history in here.
Like Marshall, you're apparently expecting this group to
function in a manner it's neither designed nor required to do. This is an
unmoderated USENET group- a form of online community- not an advice column
or an academic debate forum.
Attempting to moderate and control how people choose to communicate with
each other in here isn't just a waste of time, it's inappropriate. It's
especially inappropriate when the attempts are being made by someone who
isn't a full member of the community any more (Marshall, who rarely, if
ever, participates in conversations here), or by someone who's a newcomer.
What you're doing is the equivalent of walking into a neighborhood
bar -or maybe into a dog park- and butting into a conversation between
people who've known each other for years.
> Please, then, WHAT
> was the matter about?
Obviously, about the fact that she told someone to try a method which was
questionable, saying "do as I say, until you see a behaviourist".
> Why would anyone care if she gives bad advice or
> not, if the matter wasn't about her giving "chronically bad advice" that
> could harm an animal or human?
??? "Chronic" is irrelevant. The particular bad advice, in the particular
case, is why people care.
> I would hope that people WOULD want to warn
> against bad advice (especially if it's chronic!),
Which is exactly what people were doing- warning against bad advice.
However, they were ALSO attempting to educate Leah.
>so I don't understand why
> you would even think about contending with this point.
Obviously, because I, personally, don't think Leah gives "chronic" bad
advice. As I'm quite sure I clearly stated, sometimes she gives *good*
advice. When she does, she isn't challenged.
>
> While this may or may not be true, how -- exactly -- is that NOT
> circumstantial in regard to the points made in the OP of this >thread?
The points you made in the post starting this thread are off-base- again,
because you are not only mistaken in your analysis of what was going on in
that thread, but apparently mistaken as to the purpose of this group and how
it functions.
Theresa Willis
And I am glad it came up, because I had always thought getting down to
their level was less of a threat. So please keep correcting bad
advice, if you please, everybody.
--Terri & Harlan
Sionnach
> >
> And I am glad it came up, because I had always thought getting down to
> their level was less of a threat.
As was said in the orginal discussion, it depends on the individual dog.
:-) And don't forget that it's not necessarily a matter of the human being
seen as a threat; if the root of the aggression is the desire to do harm, to
dominate and/or to drive the human away, it may be a matter of the human
appearing *less* of a threat- IOW easier to go after.
There ARE dogs out there - and the one I've had personal experience with
was also a GSD - who are so far out of the norm that they will take a
submissive display as reason to attack. The GSD I know, on charging another
dog and having the dog roll on her back in abject submission, tore the other
dog's abdomen over. This is even more aberrant, IMO, in light of the fact
that the GSD is male.
Sionnach
> it's not necessarily a matter of the human being
> seen as MORE OF a threat; if the root of the aggression is the desire to
do harm, to
> dominate and/or to drive the human away, it may be a matter of the human
> appearing *less* of a threat- IOW easier to go after.
> The GSD... tore the other
> dog's abdomen over.
Obviously, that should be "tore the... abodomen OPEN".
ChadL
I know you're asking Lynn, but that sounds like a reasonable thing to try
(though there is a chance that it wouldn't work). I would also add that we
find what we want the dog to do _instead_ of aggressing, something that is
incompatible with aggressing on people -- and shape that up -- perhaps while
the dog is on the tether at first.
>
Marshall Dermer
charlie...@users.easynews.com writes:
>I maintain that the approach Leah lined out is consistent with what a
>number of professional trainers recommend, and it is precisely the
>approach I used successfully to socialize my aggressive dog with
>certain people. I do not assume this approach will always work,
>i.e., with every dog in every situation.
OK. I just want to point out, though, that anyone can write a
training book. You don't have to be a professionial trainer
to write a book.
>>
>> As for "hardened, man-agressive dog[s]" such a description
>> tells us nothing about the reasons (environmental variables)
>> that control such behavior.
>
>No. I had in mind the bloody dog attack that happened in Colorado a
>few days ago. Have you read about those dogs? I would apply the
>label above to them.
I have not read about those dogs.
>I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but I don't see how it
>applies to the discussion at hand.
OK....why don't we just move on?
Thanks for the civil discussion.
--Marshall
The Puppy Wizard
The Puppy Wizard thinks you've taken leave of your senses
by discussing other incompetent trainer's advice (arlene arden
for example) with the liars and dog abusers and mental cases
abHOWET HOWE to train dogs.
Perhaps you'll quote some of collin's advice?
The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
message news:a4s5tvkc1o3vlch6p...@4ax.com...
The Puppy Wizard
"ChadL" <Mrc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hvJAb.42399$%h4.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
The Puppy Wizard
>
> The points you made in the post starting this thread are
off-base- again,
> because you are not only mistaken in your analysis of what was
going on in
> that thread, but apparently mistaken as to the purpose of this
group and how
> it functions.
>
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her,
Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly
Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
Can you tell a truth from a lie?
Take off your shoes and socks and see if
you can cHOWENT HOWE many LIES
are in the following QUOTES:
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:
> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?
Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who commented
that his bed time calming technique was quite similar?
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
> > individual. I feel very sorry for her
> > and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> > doubt, please provide a quote (an
> > original quote, not from one of Jerry
> > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> > shows a regular poster promoting or
> > using an abusive form of training.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"
Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.
"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray
one squirt
directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog won't be too
thrilled
with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?
Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?
Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her,
Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly
Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context,
because you are full of bizarro manure."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.
You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the
chest, step
on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all over it like
a raped
ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop
it on a
pronged spiked pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with the
heel of
your palm.
"BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us3...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Frank" <flma...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.02061...@posting.google.com...
> > dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326...@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> > > >"brianev" bri...@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it. Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
:
> Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?
matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.
Isn't that true, Marilyn?
Of course not, but THIS IS:
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> >Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular
> kind of training. If you are interested in
> training retrieval behavior than do
> consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
> Well-Mannered, Obedient and
> Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
> Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"
LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.
"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
> few regulars here who are either ill-
> tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to
progress to striking them more sharply"
BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...
"Try pinching the ear between the metal
casing and the collar, even the buckle on
the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"
OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.
"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43...@earthlink.net>
rhur...@earthlink.net writes:
>> -snip headers etc.
>> Yes. you're right, I really should find
>> the book.. they don't have these books
>> in the local pet stores I frequent, where
>> do you find Koehler?
> I got a nice large print copy from
> Amazon.com
>Richard
Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:
Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.
Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,
========================================================
Here's some quotes and some methods right
outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!"
into its
face for 5
seconds:"
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could cause. Then
he starts
to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog
makes his
grab.
Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.
As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems the dog is
suspended
in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.
The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.
When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.
The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.
When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."
Are we havin FUN yet?
Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
The Puppy Wizard
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9449793...@216.196.97.132...> news:vp04tvo6foni4d7rd...@4ax.com:
> >>training, and has a habit of also giving advice on matters she
doesn't
> >>have sufficient experience with. One of the problems with that
is that
> >>because she's employed as a low-level beginning
obedience/puppy
> >>trainer at PetsMart, she has a title to add to her name which
gives
> >>that bad advice more weight.
> >
of
> > indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that the fact that
Leah
deceptive
> > than Jerry's "testimonials", if for no other reason than that
she is
> > (IMHO) *consciously* using it to give her advice (good or bad)
more
> > weight.
> >
>
constantly
> referring people to go to PetSmart for training. Her
recommendations were
> not exactly unbiased.
>
> If you recommend feeding Ol Roy, you should post that you work
for the
> company that sells it. should you not? A purchase of Ol Roy
would only be
> in the interest of the seller, because it certainly would not be
in the
> interest of the consumer or dog. Much the same with PetSmart
McTraining.
> Therefore Leah was requested to put her identification tag on
her
> signature, so people would be aware of her biased perspectives.
>
> People complain because it's there, and they complain when it
isn't. Poor
> Leah can't win!
"Danny Will Not Look At A Cat. When Confronted With One,
Danny Wees Himself And Cowers Hiding Behind Me For Help,"
"Oh My GOD!!! - I Would Never Have Treated Her The Way I
Did Last Night, If I Had Even A Clue That She Was Sick," diddler.
Here's your pal diddler hurtin and killin animals. disciple
cris respects diddler as a subsistance hunter:
"coyotes pay $3 a piece for raw furs. Raccoons $.50 a piece.
Hardly worth doing, but he's got to do SOMETHING or sitting
around the house with me would drive him stir crazy. <grin>"
WHEN YOU CAN'T FIND ANY CATS TO SHOOT,
SHOOT HUNGRY DOGS INSTEAD FOR GETTING
IN THE GARBAGE
From: diddy (di...@diddy.net)
Subject: Re: Dog Shot, Neighbor Charged, Anchorage AK
Date: 2002-11-08 07:00:27 PST
I guess if I felt Danny was threatened, it's the way I would
react. There would be none left standing to deal with the
threat just in case.
If someone hurt him, I would not let borders or continents
stop me from pursuing justice.
Then again, I always feed Danny INSIDE. If someone is feeding
his dog outside, his own dog might not mean THAT much to him.
If he was feeding his dog outside though, many dogs are food
aggressive, and that could most certainly spark a dog
aggression thing.
(and if the dog was penned quietly outside, what was it doing
in his yard?)
I shot a neighbors dog one night for chasing my horses and
called him to help me find it. I would do the same for
threatening my dog.
My husband shot a dog that had been tearing up trash up and
down our road for years making an unbelievable mess. When
we finally killed the culprit, the whole road cheered. Animal
control had never been able in years to catch this critter. (we
think it was feral it was certainly unkempt enough to have
been....
and it had been shot at by MANY of the neighbors, but it never
frightened it off enough to keep it from NOT tearing up the road
the next trash day)
---------------------------------
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:51:48 -0400, diddy
<di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote:
>Sheela wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:45:57 -0400, diddy
>> <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote:
>
>> You haven't a bit of compassion for anyone's animals,
>> including mine, if you are willing to continue to trap them
>> and mangle them in order to "protect" them.
>
>You know, the more idiots like you moan, scold, stomp your
>feet, the more I enjoy this.
>
> I especially have no compassion for YOUR animals. You
> certainly don't.
>
>I don't like cats. I have never made that any secret.
>
> You think you will stomp and scold me into liking them?
>
> HA. dream on.
>
> In fact, you now what I'm about. I'm honest bout it.
>
> What about t he many others out there who just silently
> eliminate them.
>
> Call them stolen, escaped or dissappeared.
>
> You never know what becomes of the animals that evaporate.
OK, you've actually stopped making sense now. You enjoy
mangling and "dispatching" (Nice euphemism by the way)
animals in a misguided trapping program that you don't
agree with because you don't like my animals and think
I want you to like cats?
My point is not that I want you to like cats. I'd prefer you
don't continue to maim them, but I don't care if you like
them.
My point is and has been from the start, your trapping program
is inhumane and misguided. Not only are you killing animals
(ie the target species) you are harming other animals. And
your program will fail, because you cannot control the factors
that have lead to the coyote population increase by killing a
few of them and mangling a few other species.
It's pretty sick that you enjoy it more because I agree with
you - that it's stupid.
=================
diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
Subject: Oh My God
Two nights ago, Reka started acting frantic about 11pm.
I let her out. It's coyote breeding season, and she is fascinated
by them. I assumed she wanted to go out and listen to them
howling. I brought her in, and she spent the night franticly and
desperately demanding to go out.
After about 4am, I finally put her in the barn, locked
securely in a horse stall for the night.
She came in by morning, and had a normal active, playful
day. Last night, at 11pm, She franticly DEMANDED to go
out. I let her out, and brought her in. At midnight, she
DEMANDED to be let out. I let her out, but I went out
to the barn and got a crate, and decided she could
spend the rest of the night in the crate. We were NOT
going to do a repeat of the previous night AGAIN.
At 3am, she whined so loudly, I then decided not to
allow her to set a precedence of this type of behavior.
So I took her crate out to the heated gun shop and
decided to let her act out her bad behavior in peace,
and send a message that her obnoxious behavior
was not going to be tolerated.
This morning at 6am, I went out, and she had vomited
(normal looking dog food) and defecated in her crate
(not normal for Reka, but then, She normally didn't
sleep in a crate, NEVER gets corrected (she never does
anything to GET corrected for) and was probably nerves
from the outside experience, plus reprimand and solitary
confinement.)
I let her in the house while I cleaned the cage. Hoping
I had made my point. She acted healthy and normal, and
playful and chipper. But then I noticed a spot of blood on
the bathroom linoleum and in the bathtub. I was the last to
take a bath, so I knew REKA was the last in the tub.
That blood didnt come from me, so it HAD to come from
Reka. Thinking about her nearing the end of her heat cycle,
I still didnt think a lot about it. I thought her obnoxious
behavior the past couple nights WAS her heat cycle..
and corresponding coyote breeding season.
Then while feeding her breakfast, I saw the whole story.
She had blood (fresh) streaming from her RECTUM. UhOh.
I had her at the vets office this morning before he
opened. He just said her intestines were all bunched
up with huge air pockets.
Was there any chance that she ate strings of carpets? I
said, last Thursday we took a plastic tarp out of the yard
that we had over the grill to protect it from the weather
because she was chewing it. That would explain
EVERYTHING.
The strings are binding and bunching up her intestines,
cutting her internally and tying her intestines in knots as
it works its way through.
Reka is in a very critical situation. She is going to
require extensive and expensive surgery that I cant
afford. I will manage.
Even with the surgery, her condition will be critical
for awhile. Scary thoughts. I would never have
treated her the way I did last night, if I had even a
clue that she was sick. I feel so badly.
--
diddy
==================================
From: diddy
(di...@nospam.diddy.net)
Subject: Re: What would you do in this situation?
Date: 2002-05-31 14:49:22 PST
Actually, I borrowed the vets office kitten once for a
couple days for school education on pet care and safe
handling as well as responsible pet ownership.
I kept the kitten over night in a crate within a crate
and yet my dog (yes, Angelic Danny, as well as Taya
and Toby tore that kittne to threads from between the
crate bars. (apparently he stuck his paws through the
crate to bat at the dogs. I was out doing yard work
and rushed in to find the little kittens pieces and
parts being torn through by ALL the dogs.
I called my girl friend to come get my dogs. I screamed
displeasure, and stalked out with the kitten. Danny, et
al spent 3 days in a kennel until I finally felt like I
could interact with them without doing bodily harm. All
three dogs were never touched, but knew they had done
something so unspeakable that I wouldn't associate with
them and they got banished.
To this day, Taya (mom and Dad's dog) and Danny will not
look at a cat. When confronted with one, Danny wees
himself and cowers hiding behind me for help.
I'm not saying this would work this way with all dogs, But mom
and dad now have a house cat, and she has never been
harmed by any of the dogs. Danny is there all the time,
unsupervised, and has no interest in harming the cat.
-------------------------------------------------------
Diddy wrote:
Like scraping your hand across a knife.. it's probably going
to bleed. It helps to be judicious about what you post.
For instance, I KNOW better than to post my thoughts about
cats...
even in a dog newsgroup.
DIDDY ON CATS (shoot, don't trap)
From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
Subject: Re: Fur Auction Ohio State Trappers Association
Xenia Ohio Feb 15 2002
Date: 2002-02-16 12:06:21 PST
If I can get him away from the Olympics, I'll have him
answer that. He doesn't know how to change the identity on
the computer, so if "I" answer this post... it's really
Jeff. And no.... we went to watch. He sold nothing. btw..
are these "CATS" feral domestic cats? (sorry not familiar
with Oklahoma) (I just shoot the DSH cats. Jeff caught a
couple cats last summer while nuisance trapping an orchard,
but it wasn't intentional)
--
diddy
=====================
From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
Subject: Re: cats : Crating/Caging: What constitutes abuse?
Date: 2002-08-23 09:18:08 PST
Lyn wrote:
> > You know I'm a cat abuser because I let my cat out.
> > Alison
> Well, it totally depends upon where you live, as to whether
> or not doing so is in the best interest of your animal.
> Abuser isn't a term I would use, and I am a "cat group"
> regular.
Here it would be abuse. If you like your cat you keep it
home. I run a state authorized and monitored nuisance
animal trapline.
This morning there was a cat in a snare. Ordinarily,
an animal caught in a snare can be released unharmed.
One of the animals I am targeting is coyotes (and the
complaint was that coyotes were killing area cats)
Duh.. If your cats are becoming lunch for wild animals,
to me .. It makes sense to keep your cats in where they
can't become lunch.. whatever.
Regarding this cat in the snare. It went nuts. It leaped,
and tangled itself, and most certainly strangulated it's
intestines. It had the snare pulled tight down to the
diameter of a dime (just large enough to encircle the
spine) around the waist area.
This cats snarled, and attacked. Trying to extricate this cat
was exceedingly difficult, not to mention dangerous. Because
I feared damage to the intestines and death of the gut, I
imagined this cat was not likely to survive.
It would have been much simpler to dispatch the unfortunate
cat and take out the dead body. Instead, this cat wore a
collar. it deserved a chance, and the owner deserved closure.
(no id on the collar) .
It escaped, just as I released it and it couldn't be taken to
the vet for examination. I will probably never know if this
particular cat survives the experience or not.
People in the area were aware that trapping was being done and
apparently still let their cats run free, b oth endangered by
the traps and by the coyotes being targeted that are causing a
problem with their cat population.
Had that cat not been wearing a collar, I would not have tried
to release this hostile cat. Releasing it may not have been a
kindness, but then... cats weren't supposed to be attracted to
this type of trap, in this position, and then they weren't
supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this situation.
If you like your pet, you keep them home.
======================================
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C55943B...@nospam.diddy.net...
> > > > > Why is everything Jerry howe on this site?
> > Who's he? I can't see any posts by anyone of that name.
Tell us
> > about your dogs, please, Jennifer, Stan and Tara.
> > Alikat
> With strategic killfiling, I also don't see others
> rebuttals either
Yeah. Like you missed my information on breaking dogs of CHEWING
and besides, you was too busy jerking and choking and scolding
your
dog.
> It got quiet once I learned effective killfiling.
Didn't it though???
Seein as most every thread is about Jerry Howe and
HOWE COME you should KILLFILE the INFORMATION you
bums need and don't have cause if you admit to using
my methods, your pals will be EMBARRASSED after they've
been tellin everybody my methods don't work and I'm a
liar and con man.
That's O.K., diddler. I PLANNED it like that... I'm a dog trainer.
> I haven't seen a JH post since last august..
INDEED, but HE sees yours, diddler.
> and thought he ceased to exist,
Like your dog came close to not existing anyMOORE after
chewin up some stuff and got HURT on it.
Cost you THOWESANDS at the vet??? At least $1500.00, eh diddler?
> until you mentioned that it's apparently a problem for you
Seems Jerry's a bit of a problem for ALL of our dog
lovers...who like to jerk and choke and shock and
spray aversives in their dog's faces, diddler.
Have a little whine to wash down the strings of carpet
your dog swallowed cause you used it to cover something
else he was chewing...
> A Salute to Casey, and sent with sympathies.
Save it diddler, you need it for yourself.
You could have avoided the entire incident had you
TRAINED your dog using my methods not to chew
stuff. But you'd rather force, intimidate and barricade
instead of handle and train your dog like a respectable
dog handler and decent human being. Adios... Thug.
Jerry.
> diddy
ChadL
>
>
> >
> > Wrong? Then what do you call these samples below? Are they not indeed
> > attacks on one's person or character without support or relevance to the
> > main conclusion?
>
> Nope. In the first place, they are not addressed to Leah's "person or
> character", though taken out of context (as you are doing) it's harder to
> see that.
On the contrary, they are not taken out of context, they are taken in the
context of criticizing not only leah's bad advice, but leah as well. You
may deny that all you want, but I think you're just grasping at straws.
> The first two are criticisms -valid ones - of her lack of experience or
> training in dealing with aggressive dogs.
Was Leah's experience at issue, or was the bad advice at issue? Does
experience make advice any less bad or good?
> I believe the third one is also, though it's additionally addressing her
> overall lack of training and experience.
> The fourth isn't even aimed directly
It's such a thinly veiled attack that a child could see it's true function;
"subtle" as it was, it is that much more insidious because you defend it.
at Leah- it's one person describing
> how she felt about Leah's bad advice, why she decided NOT to respond, and
a
> general statement about "idgits". That one does, indirectly, call Leah an
> "idgit".
okay, so you do acknowledge at least something -- you are at least a
rational creature. :)
> However, it is also directly addressing the fact that Leah's advice
could
> have gotten someone bitten,
I respectfully suggest that you re-read the original post of this thread to
remind yourself how your comment has already been addressed, in fact that is
one of the main ideas of the original thread.
as well as the fact that she clearly stated that
> she, personally, would try to deal with an aggressive dog herself BEFORE
> referring to someone properly qualified.
>
> That *would* be a stupid thing to do -
I don't disagree with that. Again, I refer back to the original post of this
thread.
not only because she could get
> bitten, which could cause the death of the dog (which is what is meant by
> "mucking with dogs")- but because, according to the rules of her
employment,
> she is NOT supposed to try to deal with aggression cases.
> She is *required* to refer cases like that WITHOUT first attempting to
> deal with them- for the very same reasons that people in here are
objecting
> to her giving advice on a matter of aggression.
that is fine.
> She is a beginning trainer, who really shouldn't be on her own; she's
at
> the point where most people would still be working as an apprentice. It's
> really not her fault that PetsMart does things in such an idiotic way, but
> it IS her fault if she takes on things she isn't qualified to handle, and
> makes things worse.
That could very well be, but its beside the point I made.
>
> IOW, the remarks do, indeed, have direct relevance to the main
conclusion-
> which is that Leah should not, in a matter involving a dog's aggressive
> behaviour towards family members, be telling people "try this method of
> mine until you can see a behaviorist".
see OP.
> The secondary issue is that many people get exasperated- and rightfully
> so- when Leah does things like this. This is a community, Leah is a member
> of this community -by her own choice- and people are entitled both to
have
> feelings about her behaviour and to express them to and about her.
understood 100%. I've been posting to newsgroups for the past 5 years. I
understand exasperation.
that's why I get exasperated myself when others don't pay close enough
attention to the consequences of expressing their exasperation in
unproductive ways. Who died and made me the moderator of the group? who
cares? I do as do, and I am who I am -- just as you will do as you do, and
you are who you are. If people want to continue attacking someone's
person, that is their choice -- I cannot stop them; however, I can say
something about it -- that is my choice, and I will not be stopped (all
other things being equal).
> As far as other posters' comments not having "support" - we're not
writing
> for academic publication here, nor is this a formal debate.
so?
> Writing in here is a form of ongoing dialouge or conversation, which in
> many cases - including Leah's- goes back many years. Their comments are
> supported by Leah's posting history in here.
yeah, so? Is my dialogue excluded from the "accepted" method of dialouge and
conversation?
>
> Like Marshall, you're apparently expecting this group to
> function in a manner it's neither designed nor required to do.
just because it's not designed or required to function in such a way,
doesn't mean that we can't hold higher expectations for it.
This is an
> unmoderated USENET group- a form of online community- not an advice column
> or an academic debate forum.
and?
> Attempting to moderate and control how people choose to communicate with
> each other in here isn't just a waste of time, it's inappropriate.
interesting assertion, how do you support it?
It's
> especially inappropriate when the attempts are being made by someone who
> isn't a full member of the community any more (Marshall, who rarely, if
> ever, participates in conversations here), or by someone who's a newcomer.
oh pahleeze. you're just going to have to get over your little comfort zone.
> What you're doing is the equivalent of walking into a neighborhood
> bar -or maybe into a dog park- and butting into a conversation between
> people who've known each other for years.
well, maybe it's about time someone butted in into this very PUBLIC
conversation that can be viewed by the ENTIRE FREE WORLD. If you want a
private conversation, then start a private chat room, so we newcomers can't
bother you with ungainly concepts like logic and common courtesy.
> > Please, then, WHAT
> > was the matter about?
>
> Obviously, about the fact that she told someone to try a method which
was
> questionable, saying "do as I say, until you see a behaviourist".
>
> > Why would anyone care if she gives bad advice or
> > not, if the matter wasn't about her giving "chronically bad advice" that
> > could harm an animal or human?
>
> ??? "Chronic" is irrelevant. The particular bad advice, in the
particular
> case, is why people care.
>
>
> > I would hope that people WOULD want to warn
> > against bad advice (especially if it's chronic!),
>
> Which is exactly what people were doing- warning against bad advice.
> However, they were ALSO attempting to educate Leah.
educating Leah is fine. But I was not responding to their attempts to
educate.
>
> >so I don't understand why
> > you would even think about contending with this point.
>
> Obviously, because I, personally, don't think Leah gives "chronic" bad
> advice. As I'm quite sure I clearly stated, sometimes she gives *good*
> advice. When she does, she isn't challenged.
I noticed that in all the personal attacks quoted (and in reasonable context
might I add), you were NOT one of her personal attackers. I think that's
great of you. Yet for some reason, you are the only one who took enough
issue with the OP of this thread to write as you did. I thought your posts
to and about leah were very well said, and appropriate, and not even
insidious by themselves. So I must wonder if you just like to sometimes
argue for the sake of it. You're very good at it; I think you should pop
over to alt.philosophy some time -- you might like it. :)
>
> >
> > While this may or may not be true, how -- exactly -- is that NOT
> > circumstantial in regard to the points made in the OP of this >thread?
>
> The points you made in the post starting this thread are off-base-
again,
> because you are not only mistaken in your analysis of what was going on in
> that thread, but apparently mistaken as to the purpose of this group and
how
> it functions.
well, the purpose of this group is the purpose of each individual -- and
their opinions and purposes are all a bit different, so I can't agree with
you on that point. And as far as how the group functions -- well, I've seen
how it functions. There I things that I like very much, and there are
things that I don't. I just voiced my opinion about what I don't like.
And now, with my arrival in the group, I bring a slightly altered purpose
and function to the group as a whole -- if you don't approve of that, you
may ignore my posts. (though, I'm generally not so serious minded; so you
might find that I'm not as much of an uptight, pedantic, arrogant talking
monkey as you may have thought -- though I will own up to the
"talking-monkey" rapp) :)
Melinda Shore
ChadL <Mrc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If you want a
>private conversation, then start a private chat room, so we newcomers can't
>bother you with ungainly concepts like logic and common courtesy.
I'm sitting on my hands and typing with my nose.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bad taste is better than no taste -- Arnold Bennett
Marshall Dermer
>May I add that I also said, in my post to the OP, that if the dog has bitten
>and broken skin NOT to try this approach, but to keep the kids away until a
>professional behaviorist has evaluated the dog.
>
>PetsMart Pet Trainer
>My Kids, My Students, My Life:
>http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
>Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
Dear Leah and Others,
What is the definition of a "professional dog trainer"?
I work with two trainers who are members of the Association
of Pet Dog Trainers:
but membership in the APDT appears quite open.
However there is a relatively new certification program:
http://www.apdt.com/trainers-and-owners/certification.htm
Right now there apparently is only a written test for Level 1
certification but there will be performance testing for higher
levels of certification.
I know that one can be competent without being certified,
but certification standards and labels suchs as "Certified
Pet Dog Trainer" will help the public decide on whom to hire.
The same kind of process has begun for applied behavior
analysts.
The bottom line is that apparently anyone can call themselves a
"dog trainer," "professional trainer," "applied behavior analyst,"
etc. But there are restrictions regarding the use of a term
such as "Board Certified Behavior Analyst" in that it is
now a registered US trademark.
--Marshall
ChadL
"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePupp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:IVJAb.3274$7p2...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> You mean instead of just EXXXTINGUISHING the FEAR?
well, how would _you_ go about extinguishing the fear?
The Puppy Wizard
"ChadL" <Mrc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CuKAb.42791$%h4....@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePupp...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message
> news:IVJAb.3274$7p2...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> > You mean instead of just EXXXTINGUISHING the FEAR?
>
> well, how would _you_ go about extinguishing the fear?
That's EZ, ChadL. We simply DO NOT DO ANY THING
you believe and teach... and we GET confident NORMAL
dog's, NEARLY INSTANTLY. The Puppy Wizard SEZ
every thing you've been taught abHOWET behavior
is DEAD WRONG.
Welcome To The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method School Of HARD KNOCKS.
From: The Puppy Wizard (ThePupp...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fearful Poodle
Date: 2003-07-18 11:12:18 PST
HOWEDY Joy,
"Joy" <petea...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9d768f72.03071...@posting.google.com...
:
> Hi Tara,
> I don't remember him being this shy when we
> brought him home at 3 months,
RIGHT. He wasn't SHY until YOU TRAINED HIM TO BE SHY
as a DIRECT RESULT of the repressive "training" methods
you've been "taught" at your local dog club, rescue, shelter,
or "humane" society.
> but it has been an issue for at least the past year and a half.
You had ENOUGH? Or do you want to continue hurting your dog?
> We try to get him out and about 2-3 times per week and he also
> sees people everyday when we walk.
On your pronged spiked pinch choke collar?
> He is very skittish even around those he's met before.
That's on accHOWEnt of YOUR CORRECTIONS for jumpin
and whatever...
> The exception being those people that are
> frequently with us (our parents, a couple of
> our friends).
Those he's ALHOWED to JUMP on cause they're "kin."
> We try and tell people to ignore him
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOUR DOG.
> and let him come to them on his own terms
Because he'll SUBORINATE himself to "win approval"
if he's "ignored." OTHERWIZE, you've got to RESTRAIN
IT, and THAT'S HOWE COME dogs BECOME SHY or VICIHOWES.
> and we always have plently of treats around for them to give
him.
BWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
DOGS ARE SCAVENGERS. THEY STEAL SCRAPS AND
RUN TO HIDE WITH THEIR BACK TO THE WALL TO EAT
THEM IN A HEIGHTENED STATE OF ALERT.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN INCOMPETENT DOG
ABUSERS TELL FOLKS TO BRIBE SHY OR AGGRESSIVE
DOGS TO MAKE FRIENDS.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME DOGS BITE AND GET DEAD.
> Joy
Your PAL tara o. KILLED HER OWN DOG casue SHE ABUSED
HER WITH HER PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR,
AVERSIVES SPRAYS, FEAR, FORCE, INTIMIDATION, AND CRATES.
HOWER DOG LOVERS HERE ARE PREDOMINANTELY LIARS
DOG ABUSERS AND MENTAL CASES.
You want a dose of the same?
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME
SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
A Dog Is A Dog As A Child Is A Child. They Respond
In Predictable Innate, Normal, Natural, Instinctive,
Reflexive, Ways, To Circumstances And Situations
Of Their Environments Which We Create For Them.
ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look forward
to working with these guys a couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I learned
from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate their brain rather
than beating ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone who beat MY ass
lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship". He
is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow he
repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely shows
any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
==========================
Subject: Re: Dog will not listen to anyone but me!
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:33:36 -0500
Message-ID: uim43bl...@corp.supernews.com
Okay, I gotta speak up here... We've been using Jerry's
methods with our dog. We had the same problem as the
original poster has with Buzz. One day working with the
family pack exercise and practicing the recall command
with the family and she'll now go out with hubby and
daughter instead of needing me to reassure her or even
refusing to go with anyone but me.
I really urge you, regardless of the negative things you
might hear about Jerry & Wits' End here, to try the method
and *judge the results for yourself*.
Let's see what other areas she's improved in... always
comes when called, not chewing stuff even if we leave
it laying around, "re"housebroken after long shelter stay,
walks perfectly on leash, doesn't try to steal food from
our plates or beg... probably a few more things I'm
forgetting to mention. *(Yeah, the kats lay off the koi
and don't wander. jh).
That's in about a week's time.
Her overall demeanor has changed. When we brought
her home she was very untrusting and ultra-submissive
(except with her area/toys where she was possessive and
nippy).
She had been abused and beaten by previous owners,
then she was in a shelter for months. They (most of them)
wanted to give up and kill her Now she's gained confidence
and trust with us. Last night was another big breakthrough
(in my eyes). She barked! Big deal, she barked just once
when she heard the front door. Great!
Anyway, you'll be told lots of nasty stuff about Jerry or that
the Wits' End manual is culled from other sources. In my
opinion, even if it is, it takes only the good stuff and leaves
out the bad. Works for me.
(And I suppose I gotta say this... I don't know Jerry personally.
I've emailed him and instant messaged him. I have not bought a
"Doggy Do Right". He's offered help for free.)
Ms. Mick Owen Crneckiy
http://www.crneckiy.com & http://tarot.crneckiy.com
E-mail & MSN Messenger: mi...@crneckiy.com
AIM & Yahoo!: MickCrneckiy ~ ICQ: 72461227
======================
Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End
Training Really Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That
Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built
On Trust And Understanding."
Disciple Paulie Writes:
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relationship with
your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
Paul.
========================
> From: Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
> Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
> Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
>
> It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
> without too much difficulty.
:>
> My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
> Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around
> the bowls :-)
>
> I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
> anytime the dogstried to eat the cats food, followed
> with immediate praise. It worked a treat.
>
> The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there
> is food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we
> go out and leave the dogs with access inside through
> a dog door.
>
> Paul
>
> Obedience and affection are not related, if they
> were everyone would have obedient dogs.
>
> See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
> Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
====================
--- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bousie
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Geday.
Hey J,
I see nothings changed on the NG. Still the same
old crappy advice and misunderstanding of the
only advice worth reading.
The problem with your method J is that I can't
answer the questions on the NG no more, people
are after a quick fix, they don't want to understand
that dog training requires a disiplined method, I'm
now really understanding that they are all result
orientated, they want the dog to sit, to down, to
stay, to come, to stop it's "bad" behaviours, they
want to stamp out each anxiety one at a time not
realising they create a new one as they deal with
the last.
I feel sorry for them, they don't understand, they
don't even realise the errors of thier ways and
they arn't self thinkers, they follow the majority,
after all if everyone says thats the way then it
must be. I've finally realised people don't want
to learn to train dogs they want a trained dog,
they want a little puppet that sits and stays and
downs and does all the nice doggy stuff or so
they think, then when the dog acts like a dog
they come squealing to the NG asking how to
stop the dog being a dog.
I have a nice little visulisation of a dogs mind
that I think demonstrates the way we approach
dog training. Imagine lots of little circles all in a
cluster, each one representing a dog anxiety or
behaviour ( desied or not), each circle represents
something about the dog, all of them create what
a dog is.
The traditional way to train a dog is to stamp out
the "bad" circles, try to eliminate as many as you
can, problem is each one you stamp out another
takes it's place (anxiety circles can't be destroyed
they just change), obviously it's a futile exercise,
but thats the traditional way.
Now imagine a big circle that completely surrounds
all the small circles, this big circle is the whole dog,
that's what we get hold of with all the little circles
inside, we don't see the little circles we see the BIG
circle the macro as you put it and use that to train.
I laugh now when I see posts critisising you, they
are critising something they don't even understand
or even have the capacity to understand.
See ya,
Paul
=====================
"Paul B" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3edc...@clear.net.nz...
>
> "shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
> > I have been reading these forums for a few weeks
> > now, and am getting really confused!!
> > but is there actually anyone who has used the
> > methods in this manual with any success ?
100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, BY NEARLY EVERY FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Student.
It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE,
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.
> > I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon
> > and really would like to know the best and most
> > effective way of training without using food treats
> > or violence (i do agree with what the guy says about
> > food treats and violence)
> > Thanks for any intelligent replies
>
>
> I have tried his methods and found them extremely
> effective. There are several areas in particular I found
> useful.
>
>
> He teaches you and the dog to pay attention to each
> other all the time. He teaches you to have such good
> communication with your dog you don't need leash
> corrections or shock collars or even food, you can get
> the dogs attention any time you like by calling it or with
> a snap of your fingers.
>
>
> When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk close
> to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching them
> without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use good
> communication and was unable to be tempted to use
> the lead to correct them.
>
>
> Another part of the training I agree with is not using
> the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
> or react with it in such a way that you become involved
> in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach often
> results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when you are
> about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding, counter
> surfing etc).
>
>
> Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
> friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
> pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
> is included in this), teach it to recall reliably, then
> to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
>
>
> Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
> If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
> are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
>
> Paul
===============================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fitz [mailto:donf...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
> To: Ama...@DCFWatch.com; paulb...@clear.net.nz
> Subject: Jerry Howe
>
> Hi,
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulb...@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donf...@hotmail.com>; <Ama...@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe
> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.
>
>
> His methods are the best I have come across. They
> aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
> you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.
>
>
> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.
>
> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.
>
>
> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.
> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.
>
> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.
>
> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
> Paul Bousie
==============================
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
=======================
From: Paul B (NOSPAM...@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST
Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Good dogs!!! bad dogs.??
Date: 2000/10/21
Something occurred this morning that made me think how
we treat our dogs and what expectations we have of them.
Because it was a Saturday we slept in and the dogs
eventually jumped up on the bed on my wife's side. After
a brief greeting she very abruptly demanded they get down,
"OFF THE BED" she insisted, Sam looked at her perplexed,
so she repeated the "order", so Sam tried to lick her face,
"GET OFF" she said abruptly.
Sam got down but was unsure what he had done wrong. After
a bit they both came over and jumped up on my side, I patted
them etc and eventually asked them to get down, "off the bed,
good dogs" and they hopped off immediately with no prob's.
Eileen asked me why they obey me and not her so easily.
I told her they got down for me because I asked them to,
they know the command "off the bed" or "off anything" so
there is no need to demand it of them, ask them and they
will comply, demand it and they get confused because
they think you are annoyed with them but they don't know
why so they try to "make amends" which is why Sam licked her.
I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.
Telling Sam he's a good dog after he sit's apart from been too
late is also a gamble because if he doesn't sit then there's
no positive interaction.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.
Paul.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.
Paul.
========================
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo
The Puppy Wizard
"Rafiki Kosmakos" <rafi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21525-3FD...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net.
..
Lynn K.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
No different tune," ~Emily
Here's MOORE:
-kelly
--------------------------------------------
-kelly
Mustang Sally
---------------------
-----------------------------------------------
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
Lynn K.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
No different tune," ~Emily
=======================================
--nessa
--nessa
--nessa
ROTATE YOUR STIMULANTS
=============================
from: Nessa (ne...@ix.netcom.com)
Hi,
warm thoughts,
Nessa
-kelly
--------------------------------------------
--All the best,
MaryBeth
--MaryBeth
--MaryBeth
--MaryBeth
--MaryBeth
Furpaw (SSRI, cognitive therapy)
Good luck!
Jim"
"I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
Charlie Wilkes
I welcome any useful comments. I understand that the owner simply
wants the dog to remain calm when he sees the young man, rather than
lunging and barking. What training protocol might you suggest?
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
>
> Question all you like,
Seems noWON wants to answer the hard questions.
> but please recognize that there are all sorts of
> levels of fear, shyness, etc.,
You mean, like when you're jerking and chokin
an sprayin aversives in dog's faces and killin em?
> including dogs that will react very, very
> badly to someone joining them on the
> floor and tossing treats.
Oh? You MURDER that kinda dogs.
> The very fact that there are so many differences
You mean differences in HOWE you HURT them?
> is why no one responsible
You mean, of the MENTAL CASES here abHOWETS
who jerk and choke and shock dogs and pinch and twist
their ears and toes and beat them with sticks and murder
the WONS you can't INTIMIDATE into being NICE???
> is going to tell Bill exactly what to do with his dog.
All the INFORMATION billy NEEDS is in his FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual.
> We haven't seen the dog
The Puppy Wizard ain't gotta SEE a behavior to
know HOWE to retrain or recondition or EXXXTINGUISH it.
> and therefore can't predict the dog's response to any action.
You mean, like to gettin jerked and choked on a pronged
spiked pinch choke collar like his breeder TOLD HIM to do?
> In general,
No. Let's get SPECIFIC. You're a liar and a dog abuser
and a mental case. You hurt and kill dogs for money.
The Puppy Wizard has a 100% SUCCESS record of
rehabilitating ALL behavior and temperament problems
NEARLY INSTANTLY all over the Whole Wild World
from settin right here, stark ravin nekkid.
You call The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual Student's REPORTS LIES.
You can't post here abHOWETS noMOORE.
That's the goddamned bottom line.
> however,
HOWEver NUTHIN. That's just HOWE IT IS.
> you want to habituate the dog to the situations
> that have provided stress in the past, reinforcing
> all positive interactions the dog initiates,
The dog grHOWELS barks and bites when introduced
to his sons. You got no method for fixin that. Billy's been
wastin two weeks on your lies and bullshit and he's got
little progress to show for it.
He'd be DONE NEARLY INSTANTLY had he believed
The Puppy Wizard. That's O.K., The Puppy Wizard needs
Bill's FAILURE as part of the DATA we need to put you
and your ilk the heel HOWETA this business and get laws
passed PROTECTING dogs and humans from lying dog
abusing punk thug coward mental cases like yourself.
You ain't gettin away with abusing animals noMOORE.
> and introduce some well-selected leadership exercises
Like jerking and choking IT on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar and shocking IT like HOWE you RUINED
your own SELECTIVELY BRED hand picked and tested
SAR dog candidate come failed sheep dog, Jive?
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
YOUR OWN DOG PROVES YOU'RE INCOMPETENT.
YOUR OWN DOG FAILED SAR WORK CAUSE YOU
HURT HIM.
> to normalize the dog's relationship to humans in general.
Yeah? You normalize your relationships with psychotropic drugs.
>The selection of methods to do those things
> requires knowledge of the individual dog.
A dog is a dog. All dog behavior problems are caused
by mishandling. You HURT and KILL INDIVIDUAL dogs
and blame the breed.
Charlie Wilkes
<ThePupp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>HOWEDY Charle,
>
>The Puppy Wizard thinks you've taken leave of your senses
>by discussing other incompetent trainer's advice (arlene arden
>for example) with the liars and dog abusers and mental cases
>abHOWET HOWE to train dogs.
>
>Perhaps you'll quote some of collin's advice?
I read through Arlene's book, and her thinking is quite compatible
with yours, Jerry. Ditto Paul Owen, who even uses your style of
rhetoric here and there. You're much more mainstream than you'd like
to think.
I personally owe you a big debt of gratitude, because your manual
opened my mind to a productive way of working with a difficult puppy
who needed a lot of hands-on work and none of this negative "alpha"
bullshit. I worked your hot/cold and family leadership routines into
a kind of loosely structured pothead game, and I started praising and
treating my dog when she acted up, instead of yelling at her. Lo and
behold, she came around fast, because she started looking to ME for
cues when the external stimuli got her wound up. That was the
critical turning point in terms of establishing control over her
aggression.
I looked at Paul Owens' book, where he talks about Level 1 through 4
on the basic commands. Sadly, I'm still at Level 1 with Holly on damn
near all of them... I just don't give a shit as long as she generally
behaves herself. The exception, however, is recall, where Holly is at
Level 4 +++. And, with a dog like mine, recall is the essence of
reliability. I got it from the WETM.
But, I have since discovered that there are other good books out
there. My impression is that Karen Pryor started the current trend
with "Don't Shoot the Dog," a book I have yet to read.
The Koehler-type trainers are still out there with their jerks and
shock collars, but their texts are no longer common on the shelves of
respectable bookstores. You have to go to the sporting goods stores,
and frankly, even most hunters have given up on the harsh bullshit
because the faster, better techniques are becoming so widely known.
Now, what do you think of Colin Tennant? He's a pretty hard-core
alpha master, IMO, but he uses subtlety rather than raw aggression.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Charlie
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
The academic tendency is to go for those capital letters, isn't it?
But, this is a forum for the general public to promote and defend
their ideas and opinions and hopefully learn something from the
responses they get. Most of the people who have been participating in
these three related threads claim to have some kind of expertise, but
they aren't putting forward constructive ideas. Spinach and Lone have
staked their credibility on a supposedly unique understanding of just
how dangerous GSDs can be. But guess what? I already knew that, so
I'm not impressed. These ladies understand the potential problem,
alright, but they haven't demonstrated any understanding of potential
solutions. Until I see some real content in their posts, I won't be
impressed by any accolades or certificates they may have acquired.
Charlie
Charlie Wilkes
<me1...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:26:05 GMT, Theresa Willis
><tdwi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>[]
>>>It's fair to discuss how bad advice should be countered, but whether or
>>>not this was bad advice isn't really in question.
>>>
>>And I am glad it came up, because I had always thought getting down to
>>their level was less of a threat.
>
>Normally it is. But there's so damn many variables possible here that
>it behooves the OP to seek hands-on, in person, professional help. No
>responsible trainer in an Internet newsgroup (or via e-mail) should be
>telling anyone what to do with a possible fear/dominant aggressive dog
>that has *already* bitten someone. And I mean no one, no matter how
>much experience he or she has, and most certainly not a short-term
>PetsMart pet trainer. And that's basically where Leah went wrong, IMO.
>
>The old adage, First, do no harm, comes to mind.
...or so says Mr. Shock Collar, the alpha trainer.
Charlie
Rafiki Kosmakos
Thereby opening a true hornets' nest.
We've discussed it before, but APDT membership means only that you've
paid the annual membership fee. APDT has a bias to a certain style of
training and the CPDT certification program reflects that bias,
including such gems as agreeing to never use certain tools or
techniques. The knowlege level required to pass a CPDT test is also
pathetically low.
The nearest thing we have to a true certification of trainers is NADOI.
You can be assured that anyone who is a NADOI trainer is competent. The
problem is that NADOI is too difficult for entry level trainers, which
is part of the gap the APDT hoped to fill with the CPDT test. But there
are also those who feel NADOI certification has become political/skewed
because a candidate must be recommended by 2 NADOI-certified trainers
and there's been some argument about test questions that can be answered
ambigously.
IMO a professional dog trainer is someone who makes their living working
as a dog trainer, has served apprenticeships under multiple trainers and
is now capable of working without supervision, continually enhances
their professional skills with on-going education, participates in the
community of dog training professionals, presents their skills and
specialities (and limitations) honestly and openly, and deals
professionally with all clients and peers.
Lynn K.
Marshall Dermer
>The academic tendency is to go for those capital letters, isn't it?
"The academic tendency"?
People who are not expert look for indicants of competence
when seeking help. For this reason in part, we have, for example,
state licensure boards which license all kinds of highly non-academic
professions as illustrated here:
http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-CredentialProgramPrerequisites.html
>But, this is a forum for the general public to promote and defend
>their ideas and opinions and hopefully learn something from the
>responses they get.
Actually, USENET groups can be whatever their contributors want them to be.
This group can be a forum for exchanging useful information, for
entertainment, for friendship, for psychopathology, for selling products
(though prohibited), for trolling, etc. One USENET group can have all these
functions and more.
Most of the people who have been participating in
>these three related threads claim to have some kind of expertise, but
>they aren't putting forward constructive ideas. Spinach and Lone have
>staked their credibility on a supposedly unique understanding of just
>how dangerous GSDs can be. But guess what? I already knew that, so
>I'm not impressed.
"Spinach"? You mean "Sionnach" ("fox" in Celtic)?
Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
These ladies understand the potential problem,
>alright, but they haven't demonstrated any understanding of potential
>solutions. Until I see some real content in their posts, I won't be
>impressed by any accolades or certificates they may have acquired.
Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
If so, you have listed another function this group can serve!
More likely, however, these folks were trying to help the owner
of the GSD and Leah.
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about eight years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"The success of science depends on a string of failures." Jerome Groopman,
M.D., Recanati Professor of Immunology, Harvard Medical School. Quoted
by Frank Rich, New York Times, August 18, 2001 in "The Genius of George
W. Bush."
Marshall Dermer
>Marshall asks "Who is a Professional Dog Trainer?" and cites APDT stuff.
>
>Thereby opening a true hornets' nest.
Well, the term was used and I questioned its meaning.
>
>We've discussed it before, but APDT membership means only that you've
>paid the annual membership fee.
Lynn, I indicated that in my post.
APDT has a bias to a certain style of
>training and the CPDT certification program reflects that bias,
>including such gems as agreeing to never use certain tools or
>techniques. The knowlege level required to pass a CPDT test is also
>pathetically low.
I have not seen the written test, but much wonder about certifying people
without seeing them practice as by completing a 2000-hr internship or
placement.
>The nearest thing we have to a true certification of trainers is NADOI.
>You can be assured that anyone who is a NADOI trainer is competent. The
>problem is that NADOI is too difficult for entry level trainers, which
>is part of the gap the APDT hoped to fill with the CPDT test. But there
>are also those who feel NADOI certification has become political/skewed
>because a candidate must be recommended by 2 NADOI-certified trainers
>and there's been some argument about test questions that can be answered
>ambigously.
Thanks for the information.
>IMO a professional dog trainer is someone who makes their living working
>as a dog trainer, has served apprenticeships under multiple trainers and
>is now capable of working without supervision, continually enhances
>their professional skills with on-going education, participates in the
>community of dog training professionals, presents their skills and
>specialities (and limitations) honestly and openly, and deals
>professionally with all clients and peers.
IMHO, these are appropriate criteria but I'm not sure most "consumers"
could well appreciate this sans formal certification or licensure.
Thanks for the post Lynn.
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about eight years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
"Where the roses bloom in their glory there will certainly be a bed
of manure." Alan Watts _The Meaning of Happiness_, 1940.
Debbie S
From: sh...@panix.com (Melinda Shore)
Dayum, girl! You're good!
Debbie
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <4j57tv0u9hghvt094...@4ax.com> charlie...@users.easynews.com writes:
>>The academic tendency is to go for those capital letters, isn't it?
>
>"The academic tendency"?
>
>People who are not expert look for indicants of competence
>when seeking help. For this reason in part, we have, for example,
>state licensure boards which license all kinds of highly non-academic
>professions as illustrated here:
>
>http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-CredentialProgramPrerequisites.html
>
>>But, this is a forum for the general public to promote and defend
>>their ideas and opinions and hopefully learn something from the
>>responses they get.
>
>Actually, USENET groups can be whatever their contributors want them to be.
>This group can be a forum for exchanging useful information, for
>entertainment, for friendship, for psychopathology, for selling products
>(though prohibited), for trolling, etc. One USENET group can have all these
>functions and more.
Fair enough.
>
> Most of the people who have been participating in
>>these three related threads claim to have some kind of expertise, but
>>they aren't putting forward constructive ideas. Spinach and Lone have
>>staked their credibility on a supposedly unique understanding of just
>>how dangerous GSDs can be. But guess what? I already knew that, so
>>I'm not impressed.
>
>"Spinach"? You mean "Sionnach" ("fox" in Celtic)?
Sorry, pal. I don't know Celtic. I've only got an undergrad degree,
and I barely managed to even get that, what with all the drugs and
alcohol. But I know my veggies.
>
>Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
>
> These ladies understand the potential problem,
>>alright, but they haven't demonstrated any understanding of potential
>>solutions. Until I see some real content in their posts, I won't be
>>impressed by any accolades or certificates they may have acquired.
>
>Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
They seem to want to impress someone, because they keep making the
point of how much experience they have had.
BUT, they got no ideas, no practical tips... nothing, except
admonishments, negative shit and lurid prose about how DANGEROUS some
dogs can be. As though none of us have ever been around an aggressive
dog or can read the fucken newspaper.
Charlie
Marshall Dermer
>On 7 Dec 2003 23:17:53 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
>Dermer) wrote:
>>"Spinach"? You mean "Sionnach" ("fox" in Celtic)?
>
>Sorry, pal. I don't know Celtic. I've only got an undergrad degree,
>and I barely managed to even get that, what with all the drugs and
>alcohol. But I know my veggies.
I don't know Celtic either. Years ago Sarah told me that "Sionnach"
was a Celtic word. I went to google, keyed in the word, and
saw lots of references to "fox," so that is what I thought it
means and Sarah confirmed this.
>>
>>Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
>
>They seem to want to impress someone, because they keep making the
>point of how much experience they have had.
Well, they appear to be experienced.
>
>BUT, they got no ideas, no practical tips... nothing, except
>admonishments, negative shit and lurid prose about how DANGEROUS some
>dogs can be. As though none of us have ever been around an aggressive
>dog or can read the fucken newspaper.
Well, from little I read I thought their major point was that is was
dangerous to deal with such a dog based on advice from people who are
neither very experienced with this kind of behavior nor capable of observing
the dog in its environment.
This sounds reasonable to me.
You can have the last word on this Charlie.
--Marshall
The Puppy Wizard
The salient POINT here is the OP was INSTRUCTED
to JERK and CHOKE his dog on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar by his breeder and THAT'S
HOWE COME he can't make his dog FRIENDS
with the CAUSE of his PUNISHNMENT.
The entire problem is EZ to resolve, but not if
you're gonna use bribery and punishment to
overcome FEAR responses, as you discovered
with your own dog Holly and her PROBLEM for
makin friends with some new people. THAT was
CAUSED by your BRIBERY, Disciple Charlie.
The Puppy Wizard TOLD YOU SO long ago an
far away, but YOU FORGOT cause "IT WAS
DIFFERENT," you was just tryin to make her
feel HAPPY meetin new people but INSTEAD
YOU RENIFORCE HER FEARS.
NHOWE you gotta get her HOWETA THAT
befor you have a TRAGICK ACCIDENT.
The GOOD NEWS is it'll only take a couple
instances of meetin people that spook her to
break the problem using the methods you
know but FAILED TO USE for this and garbage
eatin. REMEMBER, Disciple Charlie?
YOU'VE SHORELY DISAPPOINTED The Puppy
Wizard. The Puppy Wizard DESPISES a lazy student.
READ ON, Disciple Charlie:
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
message news:4j57tv0u9hghvt094...@4ax.com...
>
> On 7 Dec 2003 18:40:21 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu
> (Marshall Dermer) wrote:
>
> >Leah writes:
> >
> >> May I add that I also said, in my post to the OP,
> >> that if the dog has bitten and broken skin
That's IDIOCY. Whether the dog has bitten is IRRELEVENT.
The THOUGHT that he may NEED to bite is the pertinet
issue. That's caused by MISHANDLING. ALL behavior
problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
> >> NOT to try this approach,
She means bribing fearful dogs...
> >> but to keep the kids away
She means avoid the problem cause she
got no method to address it.
> >> until a professional behaviorist has evaluated the dog.
That's sheer idiocy. There's no need for professional
behaviorists if you know HOWE to hanlde and train
dogs cause ALL behavior problems are caused by
MISHANDLING.
> >>PetsMart Pet Trainer
> >Dear Leah and Others,
professor lying doc "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
'NO!' into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box
for ten minutes reflection" dermer is a liar and coward
and a dog abuser.
> >What is the definition of a "professional dog trainer"?
Ask nessa. She learned the HARD WAY.
> >I work with two trainers who are members of the
> >Association of Pet Dog Trainers:
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
The apdt are abusers and FRAUDS.
> >but membership in the APDT appears quite open.
Unlike the nadoi where you gotta apprentice with
a dog abuser for two years.
> >However there is a relatively new certification program:
The Puppy Wizard has reviewed their fraudulent
certification program. Google for it.
> >Right now there apparently is only a written test
> >for Level 1 certification but there will be performance
> >testing for higher levels of certification.
BWEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
> >I know that one can be competent without being certified,
> >but certification standards and labels suchs as "Certified
> >Pet Dog Trainer" will help the public decide on whom to hire.
The apdt certification is a JOKE.
> >The same kind of process has begun for applied behavior
> >analysts.
The behavior analysts will be hearin from The
Puppy Wizard in due course...
> >The bottom line is that apparently anyone can call
> >themselves a "dog trainer," "professional trainer,"
> >"applied behavior analyst," etc. But there are restrictions
> >regarding the use of a term such as "Board Certified Behavior
> >Analyst" in that it is now a registered US trademark.
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
You think they can resolve the dichotomy between
the SCRUFF SHAKE and allelomimetic behavior
and your kids climbin all over IT on the livin room
floor?
> >--Marshall
professor SCRUFF SHAKE can't post here abHOWETS
noMOORE cause he violates all ethics morals and human
decency values and principles.
> The academic tendency is to go for those capital letters, isn't
it?
The Puppy Wizard is abHOWET to bring SHAME
to HOWER academics who like to punish dog
behaviors "AND NOT THE DOG" to quote professor
SCRUFF SHAKE.
> But, this is a forum for the general public to
> promote and defend their ideas and opinions
NO. This forum has for years been controlled by
lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward MENTAL
CASES to defend their alleged RIGHT to HURT
and KILL dogs they fear as they've done for decades.
>and hopefully learn something from the responses they get.
Sorry Charlie. NO WON here is interested in LEARNING.
They're ONLY interests is in developing better methods
to HURT INTIMIDATE AND KILL HOWER BEST DOGS.
> Most of the people who have been participating in
> these three related threads claim to have some kind
> of expertise,
Most of the people in these threads are PROVEN LIARS
and DOG ABUSERS, Disciple Charlie. You gonna say
they AIN'T?
> but they aren't putting forward constructive ideas.
Like THIS?:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> Spinach
Here's sinofabitch teachin a 8 month old Lab
puppy to walk nice on his pronged spiked pinch
choke collar the first time she took IT HOWET
for her illegal dog walking business:
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over
The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot
With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
sionnach.
> and Lone
looney toons has had Ezra in remedial training
and behaviorist consults for nearly three years
with NO significant success and has had numerHOWES
accidental bites.
> have staked their credibility
They're LIARS and ABUSERS, Disciple Charlie.
You want MOORE PROOF???
> on a supposedly unique understanding of just
> how dangerous GSDs can be.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
A DOG IS A DOG, Disciple Charlie. We ain't
gonna blame the dog noMOORE for behavior
and temperament problems WE CAUSE by
jerking and choking shocking bribing and
locking dogs in a box an trying to get HOWET
callin THAT, training.
> But guess what?
The Puppy Wizard don't gotta GUESS. Dogs
respond in PREDICTABLE ways to situations
and circumstances of their environments which
we provide for them. Therefore it's EZ to train
a dog to any behavior or situation we desire.
> I already knew that,
You mean you KNEW GSD's are 'FLIGHTY?"
Well Disciple Charlie, you probably also also
KNEW that FEAR BEHAVIORS are CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING.
We ain't gonna BLAME THE DOG noMOORE
like that pit bull book you read that spooked you.
Can't you figger it HOWET, Disciple Charlie?
You're taking advice and reading disinformation
that casts dogs in a bad light by DOG LOVERS
who FEAR and HURT and KILL HOWER BEST
DOGS.
>so I'm not impressed.
LikeWIZE The Puppy Wizard. The Puppy Wizard
is PARTICULARLY NOT IMPRESSED with you
bribing your own dog Holly to make friends with
newcommers.
THAT'S HOWE COME SHE FAILS ON OCCASION.
And that's likely to cost her her LIFE, Disciple Charlie.
> These ladies
You mean the PSYCHOPATHS you've been playin
grab ass with, Disciple Charlie? They can't post here
abHOWTES noMOORE either cause they HURT
and KILL dogs and LIE abHOWET it.
> understand the potential problem,
The PROBLEM IS we got LIARS and DOG ABUSERS
who KILL dogs that SCARE them.
> alright,
NOT NO MOORE IT AIN'T ALLRIGHT.
> but they haven't demonstrated any understanding
> of potential solutions.
Oh. Well just ask melanie, she's been in treatment
and medication at the UofPA for three years with
her fear aggressive man shy SA dog Solo.
> Until I see some real content in their posts,
EXXXCUSE The Puppy Wizard?
Ain't you seen ENOUGH, Disciple Charlie?
> I won't be impressed by any accolades or certificates
> they may have acquired.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Charlie
F. them, Disciple Charlie. Let's put the dHOWEBLETALKIN
university trained behaviorists on the spot. Let's you ask
them to defend punishing dogs to train them, startin with
the SCRUFF SHAKE so as to not waste any MOORE of
HOWER valuable time before DISPATCHING THEM
FOREVER from the world of dog training and behavior.
NHOWE stop bribing your dog to make friends
and follow the goddamned INSTRUCTIONS in
your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
before she attacks someWON and Holly GETS
DEAD on us, Disciple Charlie. The Puppy Wizard
HATES sayin "HE TOLD YOU SO."
Soon as we get the DOG ABUSERS HOWETA
this business we're goin after the teachers and
child behaviorists who treat children like HOWE
HOWER DOG LOVERS TREAT THEIR DOGS.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME
SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
A Dog Is A Dog As A Child Is A Child. They Respond
In Predictable Innate, Normal, Natural, Instinctive,
Reflexive, Ways, To Circumstances And Situations
Of Their Environments Which We Create For Them.
ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for
putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
we would not have had to hold the head of a really
magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
behind fake names are more honest than people that use
their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to
just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> admit to buying and having success with his little black
> box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
Hello People,
Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and
hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a
long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry
came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard
way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is
just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and
KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
----------------------------------------------
The Puppy Wizard
into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten
behaviorISM at UofWI,
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bqvs6l$5t2$1...@uwm.edu...
>
> The bottom line is that
You cannot reconcile your SCRUFF SHAKE or ANY
PUNISHMENT and ALLELOMIMETIC BEHAVIOR
with your children crawlin all over IT on the livin
room floor.
>apparently anyone can call themselves a "dog trainer,"
NOT HERE. NOT NOMOORE.
> "professional trainer,"
The Puppy Wizard has EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED
HOWER PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS, professor SCRUFF
SHAKE.
> "applied behavior analyst,"
LikeWIZE, The Puppy Wizard has EXXXPOSED and
DISCREDITED HOWER applied behavior ANAL-ysts.
YOUR OWN DOG IS EVIDENCE.
> etc.
The Puppy Wizard has likeWIZE DISCREDITED ]
HOWER most reputable veterinary behaviorists.
> But there are restrictions regarding the use of a
> term such as "Board Certified Behavior Analyst"
INDEED? The Puppy Wizard is EAGER to have
your BOARD CERTIFIED BEHAVIOR ANAL-yst
DISS-CUSS your SCRUFF SHAKE and EXXXPLAIN
HOWE ALLELOMIMETIC BEHAVIOR will affect the
SAFETY of children crawlin all over your dog on the
livin room floor.
> in that it is now a registered US trademark.
BWEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> --Marshall
You hurt dogs to train them and kil the WONS you
FEAR when you can't HURT them ENOUGH to make
them RESPECT TRUST and LOVE you and your
AUTHORITY, professor NAZI.
The Puppy Wizard
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:br0d0t$olb$1...@uwm.edu...
Charlie Wilkes
Dermer) wrote:
>In article <g5i7tvsme0agccevg...@4ax.com> charlie...@users.easynews.com writes:
>>On 7 Dec 2003 23:17:53 GMT, der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
>>Dermer) wrote:
>>>"Spinach"? You mean "Sionnach" ("fox" in Celtic)?
>>
>>Sorry, pal. I don't know Celtic. I've only got an undergrad degree,
>>and I barely managed to even get that, what with all the drugs and
>>alcohol. But I know my veggies.
>
>I don't know Celtic either. Years ago Sarah told me that "Sionnach"
>was a Celtic word. I went to google, keyed in the word, and
>saw lots of references to "fox," so that is what I thought it
>means and Sarah confirmed this.
>
>>>
>>>Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
>>
>>They seem to want to impress someone, because they keep making the
>>point of how much experience they have had.
>
>Well, they appear to be experienced.
>
Perhaps. Or perhaps not -- I have known a lot of long-time dog owners
who have never learned how to handle dogs effectively and continue,
year after year, to use the same failed techniques, which come down to
bullying of one kind or another. Lone Hansen didn't exactly
credential herself by pointing out that her dog has recently bitten
two people, including her vet (who was severely injured) and her
boyfriend. Once is bad; twice with the same dog is raw stupidity, and
this is not the experience that competent dog people have with their
animals.
>>
>>BUT, they got no ideas, no practical tips... nothing, except
>>admonishments, negative shit and lurid prose about how DANGEROUS some
>>dogs can be. As though none of us have ever been around an aggressive
>>dog or can read the fucken newspaper.
>
>Well, from little I read I thought their major point was that is was
>dangerous to deal with such a dog based on advice from people who are
>neither very experienced with this kind of behavior nor capable of observing
>the dog in its environment.
>
>This sounds reasonable to me.
>
>You can have the last word on this Charlie.
>
>--Marshall
HORK!
Ok, here's my last word -- if people are afraid to stick their necks
out with opinions and advice based on their personal experience and
knowledge, this place is pretty worthless for guys like Bill
Zimmerman, the hapless GSD owner who made the mistake of posting here.
Charlie
Lynn K.
> IMHO, these are appropriate criteria but I'm not sure most "consumers"
> could well appreciate this sans formal certification or licensure.
I understand the urge to protect consumers, but I'm against any kind
of certification or licensing for dog trainers. I see the same kind
of problems you'd have in trying to certify weavers or goldsmiths.
Yes, there's a certain minimal level of technical competence required,
but there's a whole lot of artistry beyond that.
Lynn K.
Sionnach
Lone Hansen didn't exactly
> credential herself by pointing out that her dog has recently bitten
> two people, including her vet (who was severely injured) and her
> boyfriend.
This is not, however, the same dog she was talking about in the other
thread. She has *two* dogs, one of whom - Ezra- was fear-aggressive, and
whom she has done extensive rehabilitation with; that's the dog she was
referring to.
The other - the one who has recently bitten- is a newly acquired foster
dog, who was, IIRC, used (or more precisely, abused) as a guard dog.
The Puppy Wizard
'NO!' into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten
behaviorISM,
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:br0cf1$59a$1...@uwm.edu...
> In article <4j57tv0u9hghvt094...@4ax.com>
charlie...@users.easynews.com writes:
>
> >The academic tendency is to go for those capital letters, isn't
it?
>
> "The academic tendency"?
>
> People who are not expert look for indicants of competence
> when seeking help.
INDEEDY? That's HOWE COME The Puppy Wizard
is askin you to DEFEND YOUR DEGREE by DEFENDING
your SCRUFF SHAKE and reconciling THAT with allelomimetic
behavior and your kids climbin all over the dog on the livin
room floor.
YOU CAN'T.
In your post below which The Puppy Wizard imported,
at what age is it appupriate to SCRUFF SHAKE a dog?
> For this reason in part, we have, for example,
To get the heel HOWETA this business, professor.
> state licensure boards
Your state boards will be reviewing BEHAVIORISM
as taught in universities and will be making the
appupriate ammendments to the curriculm.
> which license all kinds of highly non-academic
> professions as illustrated here:
The Puppy Wizard ain't interested in licensing
liars and dog abusers.
"My dog is about 1.5 years old. "No" is usually sufficient
but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad
Dog" ALWAYS works. I then, of course, quickly say
"Good Dog" when he is appropriately behaving.
In providing verbal punishment and reinforcement as in
using nonverbal punishement and reinforcement, timing
is very important. Use these consquences to control behavior"
But when sayin "BAD DOG" doesn't work, ASSAULT THE DOG?
HOWE is your licensing board gonna reconcile THAT with
effective scientific methods, proefssor HOWETA BUSINESS?
> >But, this is a forum for the general public to promote and
defend
> >their ideas and opinions and hopefully learn something from the
> >responses they get.
professor SCRUFF SHAKE is AFRAID of INFORMATION
that calls into QUESTION the ETHICS of his abuses.
> Actually, USENET groups can be whatever their contributors
> want them to be.
You mean, the liars, dog abusers, and active mental
cases who HURT dogs and tell folks not to trust The
Puppy Wizard cause noWON can CURE ALL BEHAVIOR
PROBLEMS NEARLY INSTANTLY, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
> This group can be a forum for exchanging useful information,
That so, professor? Is that HOWE COME you lie and call
for censorship, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? Is that HOWE
COME you won't DISS-CUSS your SCRUFF SHAKE and
allelommietic behavior and the LIVING ROOM LABORATORY?
> for entertainment,
You think KILLIN dogs like Frits Sampson Peaches Raggdoll
Usul Chewie and all the others is ENTERTRAINING, professor?
EVERY DOG YOU'VE SEEN MURDERED HERE FOR
TEMPERAMENT PROBLEMS HAS BEEN MURDERED
BASED ON YOUR ADVICE AND METHODS.
> for friendship,
Birds of a feather, professor?
> for psychopathology,
MOST of HOWER regular posters are takin psychotropic
meds for their personality disorders, professor. Wanna SEE???
> for selling products (though prohibited),
You talkin abHOWET The Puppy Wizard's Doggy Do
Right (And Kitty Will And A Rooster Did And A Cockatoo
Or Two Did Too) Device, professor?
You gotta WORRY abHOWET THAT, professor. If The
Puppy Wizard is on the level abHOWET it, THAT PROVES
The Puppy Wizard's Methods are SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE
and REPEATABLE. And THAT will PROVE your applied behavioral
ANAL-sis is DEAD WRONG.
That means either The Puppy Wizard or YOU, are HOWETA BUSINESS.
Adios, professor SCRUFF SHAKE. You can't even defend your SCRUFF
SHAKE.
> for trolling, etc.
Seems it's YOU who is the troll, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.
>One USENET group can have all these functions and more.
In case HOWER good professor hasn't NOTICED, The Puppy
Wizard has fHOWEND the link between all your dog's DIS-EASES
and your inapupriate handling and training methods, professor
SCRUFF SHAKE.
FurtherMOORE, a dog is a dog, so your BREED groups are
no longer apupriate for discussions of breed characteristics
as most of THAT is dependent on apuppriate handling and
training.
The rescue group is particularly effected, as most of
the "rescue" is inappupriate and irresponsible cause
most of their RESCUE dogs are only in need of a few
minutes of appupriate handling and trainin, professor.
> >Most of the people who have been participating in
> >these three related threads claim to have some kind of
expertise, but
> >they aren't putting forward constructive ideas. Spinach and
Lone have
> >staked their credibility on a supposedly unique understanding
of just
> >how dangerous GSDs can be. But guess what? I already knew
that, so
> >I'm not impressed.
>
> "Spinach"? You mean "Sionnach" ("fox" in Celtic)?
INDEED? Here's your fox hurtin a 8 month old Lab puppy:
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's
Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand,
Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled
Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
> Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
You hurt dogs, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.
> These ladies understand the potential problem,
You're a liar, professor scruff shake. Can you defend
your pal sinofabitch throwin dHOWEN a 8 month old
puppy takin HOWET on a pronged spiked pinch choke
collar for the first time by a stranger and jerked and
choked till IT painicked and then assaulting him like that?
YOU CAN'T.
PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME you can't answer
any of The Puppy Wizard's questions, professor
SCRUFF SHAKE?
> >alright, but they haven't demonstrated any understanding of
potential
> >solutions. Until I see some real content in their posts, I
won't be
> >impressed by any accolades or certificates they may have
acquired.
>
> Do you really think they were posting to impress you?
Let's talk abHOWET scruff shaking and allelomimetic behavior,
professor?
> If so, you have listed another function this group can serve!
The Puppy Wizard has EXXXPOSED you as a liar and dog
abuser and coward professor and indicts your university
as bein culpable and responsible for the harm you've done
and the students you've DEFRAUDED HOWETA their
inheritances all these years.
> More likely, however, these folks were trying to help the owner
> of the GSD and Leah.
The owner of the GSD was instructed to HURT his dog by
his breeder. NO WON SAID NUTHIN ABHOWET THAT,
except that they didn't think HURTIN the dog was appupriate.
> --Marshall
> I have read rpdb for about eight years. Consequently, I urge
newbies to
> attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from
whom I have
> learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl,
Diane
> Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy
Holmes,
> Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle
Moore, Robin
> Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig
Smith, Jane
> Webb, and Terri Willis.
INDEED? That's HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Coward MENTAL CASES, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.
> Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis
Specialty/
> Department of Psychology/University of
Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
> Milwaukee, WI 53201
>
> der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
Here's a other question you can't answer, professor SCRUFF SHAKE
At what age can you SCRUFF SHAKE your dog?
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: new puppy bitting/chewing hands
Date: 1999/07/06
In article <378156F8...@bellsouth.net> Bios...@aol.com
writes:
Using many, many words, like his manual, Jerry now asserts that
the
punishment procedures I have recommended are inappropriate and
that about 10% of the dogs treated this way will "turn on their
owners."
My only second thought about what I recommended was that I did not
realize
how young the puppy was. So, the "ouch" you hurt me approach
advocated
by Avrama and others would appear more appropriate than picking
the
dog up by the neck and gently shaking it contingent on biting.
I can understand that some people do not want to use punishment
but
it can be very effective if used sparingly. As for the 10% figure
Jerry provides no research.
--Marshall
------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: new puppy bitting/chewing hands
Date: 1999/07/05
In article
<976F54CA8C2C77AB.9DF24592...@lp.airnews.net
> Jason <asl...@removethisline.geocities.com> writes:
>
>I would assume that all puppies like to bite and chew on just
> about anything. How do you train a young puppy NOT to
> chew on hands and feet? Although there is a time and place
>for saying 'no' and giving the dog a scruff shake I do no know
> if this is appropriate at this age.
At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But,
if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit,
and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have
achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing
has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a
conditioned
punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary
to decrease the unwanted biting.
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild forms of
punishment (I
would hold my dog's mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad
Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
My dog is about 1.5 years old. "No" is usually sufficient but
sometimes I
use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works. I then,
of
course, quickly say "Good Dog" when he is appropriately behaving.
In providing verbal punishment and reinforcement as in using
nonverbal
punishement and reinforcement, timing is very important. Use
these
consquences to control behavior much as in the game where a child
is told
"your getting hot" or "your getting cold." If the delay between
the
behavior and the consquence is too long then the behavior will
not
appropriately change.
--Marshall
---------------------
NHOWE for the coupe de gras, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.
> > You're scary Marilyn.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her,
Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly
Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
Lynn K.
>
> But, the guy came looking for advice, and Leah was the only one who
> gave him any.
You are not understanding something critical: it is extremely
irresponsible to recommend a specific technique for a fearful dog you
have not assessed in person. Leah was very wrong to do so and was
called on it. I will not, and would not do it. Your criticism of
Lone and Sarah for not doing so is off base.
> So, considering what you know about the breed and Bill's problem,
> would it be reasonable for him to tether the dog and have the young
> man enter the room, ignore him, and sit on the couch?
Maybe, maybe not, depending on other responses from the dog. FWIW,
you are also misunderstanding what you read in Tennant. It is
standard practice to recommend tethering for dog who have problems
with greeting visitors or door guarding. (which I don't think applies
to Bill's dog) But you went way off base when you added a meat filled
Kong and the handler lengthening the length of the tether. You both
confused the situation, making the dog's responses unclear, and
defeated the purpose of tethering.
To be as specific as possible - when Bill described how the dog calms
when her leash is handed to a son, he made me wonder if this dog might
not be defining her safety zone in terms of proximity to a human; an
"umbilical cord". If I were working with Bill I'd first ask questions
designed to uncover any issues with over-dependancy or separation
anxiety, before ever meeting the dog. On entering the house I'd look
at the dog's door behaviors, her interaction with Bill, whether she
solicits contact with a stranger and how (eye contact, etc.). I'd
watch her reactions to motion and ask Bill to offer her a treat. Her
responses to those things would tell me enough to know whether she was
bonded with Bill, confident enough to act alone and to initiate
interactions with a human, sensitive to movement/space invasion.
Then, and only then, would I add more interactive tests to determine
her confidence, stability, and triggers. At that point, I'd add one
of the sons to the mix to see what's happening there. All of that is
necessary before formulating any plan of action. That plan might
include leadership exercises, maybe alone with Bill or with Bill and
both sons, depending on her pack identification, spatial issues, leash
awareness. It might include exercises centered around food or toys to
build bonding and confidence. It might include attention exercises to
focus her on working with a human. It might include games designed to
increase her independence. It might include a whole lot of things,
but without observing the dog first, there's no way to tell. That
certainly doesn't mean I don't know what to do, simply that I don't
know the dog and what will work for her.
Lynn K.
Lone Hansen
- And it wasn't as if the vet was about to die, he got bitten teeth in
good, but no more than he was able to continue work. BTW it was the vet who
wanted to see Sonny without a muzzle although he had been told, that Sonny
would bite, he didn't listen and got bitten. Not that I owe anyone here any
explanation as to how, why and whom. The vet doesn't hold anything against
Sonny for the bite, he actually asks to him, and wants to see him again.
That boyfriend got bitten is his own fault, he didn't think, I can tell
him how to behave what to do and what not to do, if he chooses not to listen
well that is something I can't help. I have no control over the stupid
things others do.
I am not ashamed of my dogs, nor their actions. I could choose to keep
my mouth shut when something goes wrong, like when a bite happens, but I
don't. I tell when something bad happens as others might learn from it, and
I feel it is important to tell about these things in order to let potential
owners of a "problem" dog know that it isn't all a walk in the park. When
around dogs bad things can happen, and when around dogs with problems the
risks are higher. I feel that it is important to tell it like it is. If I
only told about all the good things, and about how far we have come I
wouldn't be giving the whole picture. I would present a false image of what
it is like to be around, live with and work with such dogs. I don't see a
need to present aggression issues as something rose red and easy to handle,
that would be giving people the wrong idea and perhaps even encourage them
to do something stupid like getting in over their heads because it "seems"
easy to handle such dogs as bad things never happen. Well shit happens in
life and sometimes people get bitten because they do stupid things. I can
work on my dogs, I can tell others how to behave around them so that nothing
will happen, but I can't help if someone chooses not to listen because they
think they know better.
Lone
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.547 / Virus Database: 340 - Release Date: 02/12/2003
Charlie Wilkes
wrote:
Right. And now the poor dog is all wound up, and I'm sure Lone has
worked to earn his trust. But, she should honor that trust by never
placing him in a situation where he might bite someone, because every
time he does, his chances of enjoying a normal life diminish. If
nothing else, he can be muzzled when necessary until he has been
taught to accept people in slow, patient increments.
Charlie
Leah
>At the risk of
>indulging in hyperbole, I would have to say that the fact that Leah
>persists in adding this "credential" to her posts is no less deceptive
>than Jerry's "testimonials", if for no other reason than that she is
>(IMHO) *consciously* using it to give her advice (good or bad) more
>weight.
No, I added it because several of the regulars in here requested that I do so.
I talk about PetsMart a lot, so they felt that it wasn't fair that I
"advertised" the company without noting that I was an employee.
PetsMart has a poor reputation as a training center, in general, with "dog
people." I'd actually prefer not to have it in my sig line.
Marshall Dermer
Thanks for responding Lynn!
Weavers or goldsmiths are often trying to create something new, in
which case, we are dealing with artistry (if we can define "art.")
But the practice of an applied science, applied behavior analysis,
does not so much involve creating the new but applying the old.
Such an applied science is already being achieved. The
features of such an approach are outlined here:
http://www.misu.nodak.edu/psych/Curl/Baertbl.html
Of course, when you have a new client not everything is "old"
so adjustments must be made. But there are technologeis for this
too. They arise from two charcateristics of behavior analysis.
First, in this research the unit of analysis is the single-subject.
When things don't work as planned, researchers detail how
procedures were changed so as to address the individual case.
This can help practioners.
Secondly, behavior analysts don't assume that the same
behavior is controlled by the same variables for different
organisms or across different situations for the same
organism. Before deciding on a treatment, therefore, a
behavior analyst collects information to ascertain the
environemental conditions that control the behavior. The
most recent summary of this approach can be found here:
http://www.envmed.rochester.edu/wwwvgl/jaba_articles/2003/hanley-36-147.pdf
In summary, in treating a client, we have a technology for
selecting interventions and adjusting interventions. To be
sure there is still room for judgment but not so much
room that IMHO the term artistry applies.
--Marshall
The Puppy Wizard
"Rafiki Kosmakos" <rafi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19769-3FD...@storefull-2177.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
> Marshall asks "Who is a Professional Dog Trainer?"
> and cites APDT stuff.
And here's you, a liar a dog abuser and a mental
case, speakin for the professional trainers???
> Thereby opening a true hornets' nest.
Naaah. That ain't openin NUTHIN. You want
OPENIN HORNETS??? The Puppy Wizard
sez you can't do what you do to dogs to train
them and not EXXXPECT TO NEED to KILL
some of them:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> ================
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
>
>>lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
>> depression) will "put down a biter
>> as fast as anyone" yet claims to
>> be a saintly dog rescuer
SEE???
Then you gotta wonder HOWE COME dogs GO
NUTS and ATTACK PEOPLE and then some
NUT like YOU goes and KILLS EM:
>>Lynn K. wrote:
>>
>>"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
>>one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
>>schedules and duties causes a great deal of
>>scheduling overhead.
>>
>>And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
>>volunteers get the meaningful experience that
>>they work for.
>>
>>Someone has to be responsible for that
>>Volunteer Program, and it is best done
>>by a non-volunteer."
>>
>>Lynn K.
>>---------------------------------
So either way, YOU GET MONEY for HURTIN
and / or KILLIN DOGS. Don't you.
> We've discussed it before,
Yeah, but you LIE every time.
> but APDT membership means only that you've
> paid the annual membership fee. APDT has a
> bias to a certain style of training
You mean not HURTIN dogs TOO MUCH?
> and the CPDT certification program reflects that bias,
BWEEAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
That program is a SCAM.
> including such gems as agreeing to never use
> certain tools or techniques.
CITES PLEASE? YOU'RE A LIAR.
> The knowlege level required to pass a CPDT test is also
> pathetically low.
Agreed. But that's not the PROBLEM. The PROBLEM
is liars and dog abusers like you hurtin and killing dogs
for money.
> The nearest thing we have to a true certification of
> trainers is NADOI.
BWEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
THEY'RE NAZIS. Like yourself.
> You can be assured that anyone who is a NADOI
> trainer is competent.
Like yourself? Any book method trainer or
idea you endorse is GONNA HURT.
> The problem is that NADOI is too difficult for entry
> level trainers,
That's a load of crap. The problem is their two
years apprentiship with an abuser like yourself.
>which is part of the gap the APDT hoped to fill
>with the CPDT test.
That's malarkey. The cpdt was to qualify NON VIOLENT
TRAINERS.
>But there are also those who feel NADOI certification
>has become political/skewed because a candidate must
>be recommended by 2 NADOI-certified trainers
Like yourself.
> and there's been some argument about test questions
> that can be answered ambigously.
BWEEAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
Let's talk abHOWET SAR dog trainin?
> IMO
As a liar and dog abuser and active mental patient...
>a professional dog trainer is someone who
> makes their living working as a dog trainer,
> has served apprenticeships under multiple
> trainers and is now capable of working without
> supervision, continually enhances their
>professional skills with on-going education,
> participates in the community of dog training
> professionals, presents their skills and specialities
> (and limitations) honestly and openly, and deals
> professionally with all clients and peers.
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Lynn K.
The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual Students can
do all that in just a couple HOWERS work
studying their FREE copy of The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual:
"The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change, Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Would
Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs, As Taught In Your FREE
Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual." The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
To: Jhowe
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:56 PM
Subject: hi
Hi Jerry,
Starr says hi, she's enjoying new freedom, iv been working her
off lead in my yard she comes every time. She got a little
spooked today I don't really know why but she wanted to go
inside, anyway when I asked her to come her attitude changed
as she took up her position in front of me.
Then she was easy to get under control.
Oh and with winter we're having let me tell you its great to have
a dog that doesn't pull on the lead anymore. With all this ice id
hate being dragged around. Ohand i meant to tell you and
never got around to it, i was ableto rescue a lost, fear/agressive
dog from running all over the street using the methods which are
now almost second nature to me. with body language, praise
and distraction i got a dog that i thought might try to bite me
sitting happily at my side and wanting to be pet and played
with while we waited for the dog officer to take him to the
shelter so it all worked out well:-)
bye bye for now, crystal
============================================
The Puppy Wizard
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
message news:h2u7tv4uhj20fopqr...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:46:35 -0500, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Lone Hansen didn't exactly
> >> credential herself by pointing out that her dog
> >> has recently bitten two people, including her
> >> vet (who was severely injured) and her boyfriend.
> >
> > This is not, however, the same dog she was
> > talking about in the other thread.
RIGHT!
> > She has *two* dogs, one of whom - Ezra-
Who's been in remedial training for nearly
three years and has made 0 PROGRESS.
> > was fear-aggressive,
STILL IS. Ezra was banned from obedience
classes a couple months ago and has bittin
a 8 year old girl minding her business and
a jogger and nearly every member of her
family.
> > and whom she has done extensive rehabilitation with;
That's a lie. Ezra is still aggressive and HOWETA control.
> > that's the dog she was referring to.
sinofabitch is a pathological liar.
> > The other - the one who has recently bitten-
> > is a newly acquired foster dog, who was, IIRC,
> > used (or more precisely, abused) as a guard dog.
CITES PLEASE?
> Right. And now the poor dog is all wound up, and
> I'm sure Lone has worked to earn his trust. But,
> she should honor that trust by never placing him
> in a situation where he might bite someone, because
> every time he does, his chances of enjoying a normal
> life diminish.
Well Disciple Charlie, that's a other goddamned
FAERIE TAIL dreamed up by INCOMPTENT LYIN
DOG ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARDS who
only know HOWE to HURT and KILL dogs they fear.
> If nothing else, he can be muzzled when necessary
looney toons doesn't know HOWE to train a dog
to a muzzle, to begin with, and secondly, Sony
doesn't TRUST her enough to permit her to handle him.
> until he has been taught to accept people in slow,
> patient increments.
You mean instead of doin the Hot & Cold Exercise to
teach the dog you ain't gonna jerk and choke IT no
MOORE and the Family Leadership Exercise to
teach him to follow and pay attention and look up
to you as his leader and then installing the come
command as a conditioned reflex to have 100%
total non physical control and then doin with him
as you please and addressing any behavior quirks
according to the safe gentle effective scientific an
psychological conditioning and desensitization
techniques as taught in your FREE copy of The
Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual, Disciple Charlie?
> Charlie
ChadL
Okay. If I were the owner, I would use something that more accurately
communicates what I want. Something that pinpoints what I'm looking for. I
would use a conditioned reinforcer -- and it would probably be a "clicker".
The response I would possibly want to shape, is sitting quietly in the
presence of a stranger (or holding a toy, whatever is incompatible). I
would begin to shape the duration of this quiet activity in the presence of
the young man. The click might be paired with food, or it might be paired
with attention, or it might be paired with the removal of the young man for
a brief period, or it might be paired with slack in the tether. Whatever
works is whatever reinforcer the dog will come in contact with. The proper
use of a clicker with fearful and/or aggressive animals can and will work
wonders.
However, let us say that this young man is a stimulus that is similar to one
in the dog's history. Let us say that in the past a similar looking and/or
smelling young man paired himself and an aversive stimulus to the dog, and
thus conditioned the dog. Now this stimulus (the first young man), and
those very similar to it (e.g., the new young man), are conditioned aversive
stimuli. Scientific fact: The mere repeated presentation of the conditioned
stimulus (e.g., the young man) without the consequence of any aversive
stimuli, is a process known as "respondent extinction". This extinction will
weaken the conditioned emotional response of the dog and any other
conditioned response that had been paired with the unconditioned aversive
stimulus -- and also probably make it easier for operant extinction to occur
(which is: breaking the contingecy between aggressive action and the
consequence of reinforcement).
The cycle involved here is that the dog will aggress, and probably be
negatively reinforced for that aggression due to the fact that the
conditioned aversive stimulus (the young man for example) will go away after
being attacked or under threat. Because the dog always gets to avoid and
escape the consequences of staying in the presence of the conditioned
aversive stimulus (the young man), the dog never has the opportunity to
undergo respondent extinction. This scenario can be used as analogue to
many if not most of animal and HUMAN problems in life. Most problems stem
from avoidance and escape. I would call any aggression that appears
motivate by "fear", a class of behaviors that are maintained by negative
reinforcement (i.e., they operate on the environment through aggression
which results in the removal an aversive stimulus).
However, this is a scenario that assumes that the dog is aggressing on
the young man because of such a history. It may be aggressing for totally
different reasons, and in such a case the scenario above would not
necessarily apply.
Leah
>Of course you don't want to settle down near
>>the dog if he's growling or behaving as though he might attack. But,
>>if he's fearful and nervous, sitting in the room, ignoring him, and
>>tossing some nibbles out on the floor sounds about right.
>Hm . . . . why provide reinforcers contingent on fearful, nervous behavior?
>Charlie, IMHO, this does not appear at all right.
If the dog has a trust issue with people, ignoring him, not sitting near him,
not looking at him, but tossing him good treats is a way of gaining trust. If
he's growling and acting like he's going to attack, the technique is not
working with that dog.
Makes me think of something that happened today. A woman complained that her
dog barks continuously in the car. I told her to try a water pistol.
She came back and told me that she emptied several water pistols on him, and
that it just made him bark more. So I gave her another couple of ideas to try.
She said, "Should I keep using the water pistol?" I was taken aback.
Uh...no. I guess I have to add to one of my mantras in class - "if it works,
don't fi* it." (For when people want to know if they should change their hand
signal or cue words to the ones I recommend, when the dog responds well to the
ones they already use.) I have to add, "If it doesn't work, don't use it." I
thought it was obvious, but apparently not.
I had another success using this technique with another fearful dog. This one
was badly abused - broken bones and bruises when she was adopted as a young
puppy, and so terrified of humans that she couldn't be socialized. She has
never bitten and broken the skin, or I wouldn't be working with her.
Let me repeat - I do NOT take on dogs who have a history of biting. I refer
them.
She is now about 9 months old, and joined an intermediate class. The first few
weeks, if a human went anywhere near her, she would growl. So I totally
ignored her, and just let her get used to the environment and the routine.
Then when she no longer reacted to me standing near her (within 3 feet), I
started sitting down and tossing hot dogs to her. At first she wouldn't even
take them off the floor, but would take them if mom picked them up and handed
them to her.
She would also growl if a dog came near her. So I had the owner start to
praise her and give her treats whenever another dog was close by, and just
distract her in an unconcerned manner if she got too nervous.
Today, Zoey will come to me and ask for treats. While she's eating them from
my hands, she allows me to gently rub her under the chin. I still don't look
at her, but she now will sometimes initiate friendly eye contact with me. I
can stand anywhere near her, even bend down to pick something up in front of
her, and she doesn't react.
She initiated play with another dog in the class today for the first time.
Her whole demeanor has changed. She's happy, will wander to the end of the
leash without fear (she wouldn't leave mom's legs at first), acts playful, and
seems to thoroughly enjoy the class.
She is also going up to strange people and sniffing them. Her mom always warns
them not to attempt to touch her, because she will still startle and growl if
they do. But she is gaining trust. She'll also take treats out of most
strangers' hands.
This is such a dramatic change that mom is going to keep her in class. And
it's not just at PetsMart that she's getting friendlier and more rela*ed - it's
in general.
All I can say is that I have seen the technique work over and over again.
But no, of course, it's not the right technique for every dog. And I admit I
probably should not have recommended it without first seeing the OP's dog.
However, I *did* say not to try anything without an in-person behaviorist if
the dog has a bite history.
Leah
>Charlie, what you are missing is that many fearful dogs have spatial
>issues, which can be more related to height than distance.
Many or some? I've run into one so far. And as soon as I started to lower
myself, I saw the dog stiffen and stood back up. He still responded to the
treat-tossing, but from a standing position.
In general, isn't sitting and not facing a dog a calming signal?
Leah
>Particularly not since he described the dog as having already bitten at
>least once.
But didn't clarify what he meant by "bitten." Many people consider a warning
air snap a bite. I only consider it a bite if the teeth make contact with the
skin. An air snap means "back off," and sitting a distance away is backing
off.
Charlie Wilkes
>Charlie Wilkes <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in message news:<a4s5tvkc1o3vlch6p...@4ax.com>...
>
>>
>> But, the guy came looking for advice, and Leah was the only one who
>> gave him any.
>
>You are not understanding something critical: it is extremely
>irresponsible to recommend a specific technique for a fearful dog you
>have not assessed in person. Leah was very wrong to do so and was
>called on it. I will not, and would not do it. Your criticism of
>Lone and Sarah for not doing so is off base.
>
Bah! You need to ditch those high heels and slip into something more
comfortable, baby.
Read Bill Zimmerman's posts. All of them. Is the guy a drooling
idiot? Is his 6-month old puppy looking like being a man-killer? I
don't think so.
Moreover, if Leah's advice is so stunningly irresponsible, why was I
able to find the same or very similar advice in two well-known books
sold in bookstores all over the country? A zillion dog books include
standard protocols for "Dealing with aggression toward family members"
"Dealing with aggression toward strangers" etc. etc. Leah was merely
passing on something basic she has learned, and which she has
confirmed with her own experience. It is a casual, uninsured,
no-fee-for-service opinion, with the standard Usenet caveat that
anything you read here maybe complete bullshit, so you decide what to
do with that kind of information.
>> So, considering what you know about the breed and Bill's problem,
>> would it be reasonable for him to tether the dog and have the young
>> man enter the room, ignore him, and sit on the couch?
>
>Maybe, maybe not, depending on other responses from the dog. FWIW,
>you are also misunderstanding what you read in Tennant. It is
>standard practice to recommend tethering for dog who have problems
>with greeting visitors or door guarding. (which I don't think applies
>to Bill's dog) But you went way off base when you added a meat filled
>Kong and the handler lengthening the length of the tether. You both
>confused the situation, making the dog's responses unclear, and
>defeated the purpose of tethering.
Tennant recommends that a visitor present the dog with a meat-filled
Kong as part of a step-by-step, illustrated process that seems fairly
severe and overly structured, to my mind. I added the thought about
extending the tether, as a suggested precaution to keep the guy safe
from this man-eating 6-month-old puppy but still allow the dog to get
closer as long as he's behaving.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, of course. It's not quite
how I would operate, but I wondered if it would meet your "safety
test."
>To be as specific as possible - when Bill described how the dog calms
>when her leash is handed to a son, he made me wonder if this dog might
>not be defining her safety zone in terms of proximity to a human; an
>"umbilical cord".
You see, this is the difference between your lucid mind and my
drug-addled mind, Lynn. You were able to formulate a psychological
theory that Freud or Jung might have admired. But, when I read that
part, my only thought was "this puppy doesn't sound all that unusual
or dangerous."
> If I were working with Bill I'd first ask questions
>designed to uncover any issues with over-dependancy or separation
>anxiety, before ever meeting the dog. On entering the house I'd look
>at the dog's door behaviors, her interaction with Bill, whether she
>solicits contact with a stranger and how (eye contact, etc.). I'd
>watch her reactions to motion and ask Bill to offer her a treat. Her
>responses to those things would tell me enough to know whether she was
>bonded with Bill, confident enough to act alone and to initiate
>interactions with a human, sensitive to movement/space invasion.
>Then, and only then, would I add more interactive tests to determine
>her confidence, stability, and triggers. At that point, I'd add one
>of the sons to the mix to see what's happening there. All of that is
>necessary before formulating any plan of action. That plan might
>include leadership exercises, maybe alone with Bill or with Bill and
>both sons, depending on her pack identification, spatial issues, leash
>awareness. It might include exercises centered around food or toys to
>build bonding and confidence. It might include attention exercises to
>focus her on working with a human. It might include games designed to
>increase her independence. It might include a whole lot of things,
>but without observing the dog first, there's no way to tell. That
>certainly doesn't mean I don't know what to do, simply that I don't
>know the dog and what will work for her.
Hmmm.
I'm gonna smoke another tasty bowl of weed, here, Lynn, and hope that
I give you a contact buzz when you read this. But thanks for your
response, which is as useful as any I have seen.
Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.0312...@posting.google.com...
> Charlie Wilkes <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
> message news:<a4s5tvkc1o3vlch6p...@4ax.com>...
>
> >
> > But, the guy came looking for advice, and
> > Leah was the only one who gave him any.
The Puppy Wizard gave Bill all the INFORMATION
he needed. leah told him to bribe his dog. NO WON
mentioned the PROBLEM is the dog has been HURT
on leash according to the advice of his breeder.
> You are not understanding something critical:
What's critical is your state of mental health
and your integrity. You're a liar and a dog abuser
and a mental case.
> It is extremely irresponsible to recommend a
> specific technique for a fearful dog you have
> not assessed in person.
That's a load of crap. The Puppy Wizard has
PROVEN a dog is a dog and all we gotta do
is handle and train ALL dogs withHOWET
HURTIN and INTIMIDATING them and
they all respond the same same same
same, NEARLY INSTANTLY.
> Leah was very wrong to do so
leah is a pathological liar and dog abuser
like yourself.
> and was called on it.
leah was criticized for tellin the guy to have
his kids get on the floor and throw IT treats.
The Puppy Wizard sez offering bribes to
fearful dogs often makes them attack. looney
toons and melanie VERIFIED that by their
own observation of their own fear aggressive
man shy dogs who've both been in treatment
for nearly three years UNSUCCESSFULLY.
> I will not, and would not do it.
YOU'D MURDER THIS DOG AND BLAME
HIS BREEDING.
> Your criticism of Lone
looney toons has a miserable record of
illigitimate attacks by her dogs on innocent
people, including an 8 year old girl who was
minding her own business.
> and Sarah for not doing so is off base.
sinofabitch is likeWIZE a pathological liar
and dog abuser. Here's she, teachin an
8 month old Lab puppy she just met, to
walk nice on her PRONGED SPIKED
PINCH CHOKE COLLAR:
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her
Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled
Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly
Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!"
And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach.
> > So, considering what you know about the breed
A DOG IS A DOG.
> > and Bill's problem,
Bill's PROBLEM is that HE HURTS HIS DOG.
> > would it be reasonable for him to tether the dog
Ever heard of "chained dog syndrome?"
No, you cannot tether a dog to train IT to
be friendly. THAT'S HOWE we train dogs
TO ATTACK.
> > and have the young man enter the room,
> > ignore him, and sit on the couch?
That'll frustrate the dog. If IT lunges he will
become MOORE enraged. These threads
are likely to cost Bill's dog his life.
> Maybe, maybe not, depending on other responses
> from the dog.
If a "method" is 'maybe maybe not' safe gentle
fast and effective, then MAYBE you shouldn't do it.
> FWIW, you are also misunderstanding what you
> read in Tennant. It is standard practice to
> recommend tethering for dog who have problems
> with greeting visitors or door guarding.
BWEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!
THAT'S SHEER IDIOCY.
> (which I don't think applies to Bill's dog)
Well yeah, that's abHOWET what Bills dog is doin.
> But you went way off base when you added a
> meat filled Kong and the handler lengthening
> the length of the tether.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
Don't forget that some dogs aggress when
offerd BRIBES to be friendly, as Solo and
Ezra PROVED for us...
> You both confused the situation, making
> the dog's responses unclear, and defeated
> the purpose of tethering.
The puporse of tethering is cause the incompetent
blowhard Tennent doesn't know HOWE to pupperly
handle and train a dog or he'd NEVER tie a dog to
the wall and expect IT to make friends with folks
comin in the door. That's gonna AGGITATE some
dogs and make them MOORE AGGRESSIVE and
PROBABLY GET THEM DEAD.
> To be as specific as possible -
Does Tennent work at a kill shelter makin
money off of DEAD DOGS like you do,
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
> when Bill described how the dog calms
> when her leash is handed to a son,
THE DOG GOES INTO PSYCHONEUROGENIC SHOCK.
HE GOES CATATONIC. Skinner did research
on HOWE COME dogs do that...
> he made me wonder if this dog might not be
> defining her safety zone in terms of proximity
> to a human; an "umbilical cord".
You off your meds again, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
> If I were working with Bill
YOU'D HANG THE DOG ACCORDING TO KOEHLER.
> I'd first ask questions designed to uncover
> any issues with over-dependancy or separation
> anxiety, before ever meeting the dog.
BWEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
That's got nuthin to do with the dog fearin
his kids and trying to attack them and Bill
jerking and choking IT to make IT friends.
> On entering the house I'd look at the dog's
> door behaviors, her interaction with Bill,
> whether she solicits contact with a stranger
> and how (eye contact, etc.). I'd watch her
> reactions to motion and ask Bill to offer her
> a treat.
BWEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual would rehabilitate
Bill and his dog in WON DAY. But Bill would have
to stop jerking and choking and bribing his dog
and Bill is AFRAID to do that cause he's a bit
of a Nazi or he's a mental case or he's just a plain
old ordinary COWARD.
Whatever Bills PROBLEM is, it ain't the DOG
who's GOT PROBLEMS.
> Her responses to those things would
> tell me enough to know whether she
> was bonded with Bill,
That's a load of crap.
> confident enough to act alone
You mean, withHOWET Bill JERKING and CHOKING IT???
> and to initiate interactions with a human,
That's IRREVENT. The dog would be TRAINED
before you could get finished with your BULLSHIT
evaluation if Bill wasn't a COWARD and you and
your lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowar MENTAL
CASES didn't LIE to him abHOWET The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method being FRAUDULENT, like you did to
Misty and steve walker and many others to get
their DOGS DEAD on them.
> sensitive to movement/space invasion.
You mean like when you jerk and choke
a new foster care dog on a new pronged
spiked pinch choke collar in his new crate
in his new HOWES to make IT feel comfortable?
> Then, and only then, would I add more interactive
> tests to determine her confidence, stability, and triggers.
What are you gonna TEST withHOWET trainin IT?
You TEST protection dogs till they PANCAKE
and then wash them HOWETA the program
cause they won't stand up to ABUSE.
You're a liar a dog abuser and a mental case.
> At that point, I'd add one of the sons to the
> mix to see what's happening there.
AND THEN YOU'D HANG THE DOG ACCORDING
TO YOUR KOEHLER BOOK.
> All of that is necessary before formulating any plan of action.
NO. All that "testing" and observation is to
determine if you can HANG the dog withHOWE
KILLIN IT.
> That plan might include leadership exercises,
Leadership exercise, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
WHERE did you ever hear of THAT???
> maybe alone with Bill or with Bill and both sons,
> depending on her pack identification, spatial
> issues, leash awareness.
You're full of crap.
> It might include exercises centered around food
We been through THAT with Solo and Ezra. It
made them ATTACK, if you recall.
> or toys to build bonding and confidence.
This dog ain't interested in playin, he's SCARED.
> It might include attention exercises to focus
> her on working with a human.
You mean bribing and hurtin the dog when IT
don't look at you, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
> It might include games designed to increase
> her independence.
DO TELL?
> It might include a whole lot of things,
A whole lotta things like shocking and hanging
and KILLIN IT when you get scared enough.
> but without observing the dog first,
That's INSANE. We don't gotta SEE a dog
to know HOWE to train it.
> there's no way to tell.
BECAUSE YOU'RE A FRAUD A LIAR
A DOG ABUSER and a MENTAL CASE.
> That certainly doesn't mean I don't know what to do,
The Puppy Wizard SEZ you're a LIAR a DOG ABUSER
a COWARD and a goddamned MENTAL CASE and HE
CAN PROVE IT.
> simply that I don't know the dog and what will work for her.
CASUE YOU'RE A FRAUD A LIAR A DOG ABUSER
A COWARD AND A GODDAMNED MENTAL CASE.
> Lynn K.
HOWEDY Bill,
"Bill Zimmerman" <wazim...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:zgOxb.19$oe4....@news2.news.adelphia.net...
?
> Hi
>
> Our 6 month old German shepherd male puppy is showing
> aggressive behavior toward our 2 sons. They are 19 and 21.
All behavior problems are caused by mishandling, Bill.
> He will bark at the sound of our older son moving around in
> his room in the basement of our home.
That should take a couple minutes to extinguish.
> While barking he will also back away as if he is afraid.
Right. All aggression is fear.
> We have tried yanking on his choke chain
To teach him to be confident?
> and correcting him
Hurting and intimidating dogs is not correcting nuthin,
it's being a dog abuser.
> as advised by his breeder,
Well, you learned the hard way. You ready for MOORE of
the same or are you ready to get off the elevator?
> but he still carries on with the barking.
Takes MINUTES. Maybe LESS. WithHOWET HURTIN noWON.
> He will let our son get close to him and pet him, and while
> he has never bitten him, we are concerned.
That's pretty bad.
> He is doing somewhat better with our younger son, since he
> is
> around him more. The strange thing is that he doesn't show
> any
> sign of this behavior around any other males.
That's probably cause other males don't make suspiciHOWES
noises that cause him to get jerked and choked as taught to
you by your ethickal breeder.
> We have taken him around other family members and their
> dogs, and to the pet store with no problems. He is fine
> with other
men
> that come to the house and he is fine with my wife and our
> 17
year
> old daughter.
Well, he's only six months and you've got your hands full
cause you've been given bad information from your breeder.
> He was raised for the first 6 months by a single 60ish
> woman, who decided he was too much for her.
Where was the ethickal breeder when the lady had trHOWEBLE
with this pup? She just took the dog off her hands?
> He is a good dog otherwise, seems to be pretty intelligent
> and
> eager to learn.
Yeah. Too bad you've been given bad advice abHOWET him.
> We don't know how to correct this behavior
Well, you're in EXXXCELLENT company here abHOWETS.
> and are open to suggestions.
You won't be gettin no goddamned suggestions from HOWER
dog abuser liars and mental cases, Bill. You been readin HOWER
forums?
> Thanks
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in
message
news:4d94effc.03053...@posting.google.com...
>
> I read through his manual and tried the techniques
> on my puppy, who looked like growing up to be a
> mean-assed dog like her daddy.
>
> Guess what? It worked.
>
> More forceful methods might have allowed me
> to control her, but I don't think I'd have the
>
> - exquisitely gentle -
>
> and well-behaved dog I do now.
>
> Charlie
--------------------
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@easynews.com> wrote in
message news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu9...@4ax.com...
> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the
> literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance
> and "make the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this
> once or twice, just by taking a stern tone of voice, and
> the results were terrible.
>
> The pup got scared and just wanted to stay away from me.
> That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits'
> End Dog Training manual -- that and the fact that
> Jerry is an all-around great guy.
> The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this:
> make yourself the center of your puppy's world -- his
> personal Lord Jesus.
>
> Never give him a reason to fear you or think you're angry.
>
> Love the heck out of him, and you'll end up with a great
> dog.
>
> This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do anything I
> want her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100
> percent, and nothing is more important in her world than her
> relationship with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
> Charlie
===============
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===============
The Puppy Wizard
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:br0jjl$pgn$1...@uwm.edu...
>
> Well, they appear to be experienced.
Yeah. They're experienced dog abuser liars
and mental cases.
> >BUT, they got no ideas, no practical tips... nothing, except
> >admonishments, negative shit and lurid prose about how
> >DANGEROUS some dogs can be. As though none of us
> >have ever been around an aggressive>dog or can read
> > the fucken newspaper.
> Well, from little I read I thought their major point was that is
was
> dangerous to deal with such a dog based on advice from people
> who are neither very experienced with this kind of behavior
The Puppy Wizard teaches green handlers to become
EXXXPERST in a couple days... NEARLY INSTANTLY,
you could say.
> nor capable of observing the dog in its environment.
We don't gott SEE a dog to learn NOT TO HURT IT,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE.
> This sounds reasonable to me.
You mean like SCRUFF SHAKING a puppy, professor?
> You can have the last word on this Charlie.
No professor, YOU can have the last word. Tell us
HOWE you reconcile your SCRUFF SHAKE and
allelomimetic behavior with your kids climbin all
over the dog on your living room floor.
Then you can retire from teaching.
> --Marshall
Can you tell a truth from a lie?
Take off your shoes and socks and see if
you can cHOWENT HOWE many LIES
are in the following QUOTES:
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:
> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
> > You're scary Marilyn.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her,
Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly
Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
Charlie Wilkes
<lo...@zorland.remove.this.bit.net> wrote:
>
>"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
>news:br0om6$26b824$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> Lone Hansen didn't exactly
>> > credential herself by pointing out that her dog has recently bitten
>> > two people, including her vet (who was severely injured) and her
>> > boyfriend.
>>
>> This is not, however, the same dog she was talking about in the other
>> thread. She has *two* dogs, one of whom - Ezra- was fear-aggressive, and
>> whom she has done extensive rehabilitation with; that's the dog she was
>> referring to.
>> The other - the one who has recently bitten- is a newly acquired foster
>> dog, who was, IIRC, used (or more precisely, abused) as a guard dog.
>>
>>
>
> - And it wasn't as if the vet was about to die, he got bitten teeth in
>good, but no more than he was able to continue work. BTW it was the vet who
>wanted to see Sonny without a muzzle although he had been told, that Sonny
>would bite, he didn't listen and got bitten. Not that I owe anyone here any
>explanation as to how, why and whom. The vet doesn't hold anything against
>Sonny for the bite, he actually asks to him, and wants to see him again.
> That boyfriend got bitten is his own fault, he didn't think, I can tell
>him how to behave what to do and what not to do, if he chooses not to listen
>well that is something I can't help. I have no control over the stupid
>things others do.
HORK!
Poor, blameless Lone. It's all everyone else's fault.
>
> I am not ashamed of my dogs, nor their actions. I could choose to keep
>my mouth shut when something goes wrong, like when a bite happens, but I
>don't. I tell when something bad happens as others might learn from it, and
>I feel it is important to tell about these things in order to let potential
>owners of a "problem" dog know that it isn't all a walk in the park. When
>around dogs bad things can happen, and when around dogs with problems the
>risks are higher. I feel that it is important to tell it like it is. If I
>only told about all the good things, and about how far we have come I
>wouldn't be giving the whole picture. I would present a false image of what
>it is like to be around, live with and work with such dogs. I don't see a
>need to present aggression issues as something rose red and easy to handle,
>that would be giving people the wrong idea and perhaps even encourage them
>to do something stupid like getting in over their heads because it "seems"
>easy to handle such dogs as bad things never happen. Well shit happens in
>life and sometimes people get bitten because they do stupid things. I can
>work on my dogs, I can tell others how to behave around them so that nothing
>will happen, but I can't help if someone chooses not to listen because they
>think they know better.
Do you have the option of controlling who has access to your dogs and
insisting that they follow your protocols because you are ultimately
responsible? Or is that beyond your capabilities as an owner and
handler?
Charlie