Raising two Shih Tzu littermates

Clipzz

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Nov 22, 2006, 12:19:58 PM11/22/06

to

We bought two, 8 week old, Shih Tzu. Sister's littermates. I've
been doing some reading and came across "Littermate Syndrome". What
cause me to do some reading about raising two pups was the fact they
are starting to be more aggressive with each other and more dependant
on each other. They rather play outside then do their duty. We walk
the dogs (sometimes lite jog for few hundred feet) together, play
together, train together. We had them only for two weeks now, and they
seem to be fine, except they are starting to become more aggressive.

Any thoughts?

Is it true, for the dog's best interest, we should find another home
for one of the dogs?

Concern Puppy owner.

Sandy in OK

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Nov 22, 2006, 12:37:08 PM11/22/06

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Major disagreements between siblings (especially females) can be cause
for concern. Can, in fact, be deadly. On the other hand, if they are
really young, chances are what you are seeing is rough play. But, if
you raise them as a "pair" you are likely to have issues even if they
get along well together. As you've noticed, they need each other and
you are pretty much "out of the loop" If you bought them from a
responsible breeder, you might talk to your breeder about the issue.
And at this point it would probably be easy for them to rehome one of
the puppies. Otherwise, you need to start limiting their access to each
other, and doing things with them separately so they see you as a main
figure in their life. This doesn't mean they never get to be together -
just that they have individual time, individual training. Otherwise
they'll depend on each other and train themselves (probably to do
things you don't really want). Also, if though good training and
consistency, you become a strong and respected leader for your puppies,
there will likely be less status-related struggles between them later.
Sandy in OK

Rocky

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Nov 22, 2006, 1:31:31 PM11/22/06

to

"Sandy in OK" <celea...@aol.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> If you bought them from a
> responsible breeder, you might talk to your breeder about
> the issue.

A responsible breeder wouldn't have sold the OP a litter pair to
begin with, or at least would have already counseled the
downsides.

OP: Sandy's post was mostly bang-on, and it's hard to emphasize
really how much individual play and training time each of your
puppies should get. You've made a big commitment.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com

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Nov 22, 2006, 2:16:50 PM11/22/06

to

HOWEDY Clipzz,

WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual Forums
And Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research
Laboratory <{); ~ ) >

From: Clipzz
Date: Wed, Nov 22 2006 12:19 pm
Email: "Clipzz" <mvhsru...@hotmail.com>
Clipzz wrote:

> We bought two, 8 week old, Shih Tzu.

Scott & Fuller, the MOST HIGHLY respected researchers
in the industry, recommend SIX weeks as the preferable
age to take a new pup from the litter.

HOWEver, ETHICKAL BREEDERS believe the the Federal Department
Of Agriculture's RESTRICTION on INTERSTATE SHIPPING pryor to
8 weeks of age MEANS that puppys SHOULD NOT BE SOLD pryor to
8 weeks, therefore the ignorameHOWES ETHICKAL BREEDERS took
THAT to mean no puppy should leave the litterbox pryor to 8
weeks of age.

THAT'S the kind of IDIOCY you're up against, Clipzz <{): ~ ( >

> Sister's littermates.

ETHICKAL BREEDERS and PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS recommend AGAINST
raising two same age pups, ESPECIALLY two SAME SEZ pups as
they'll "BOND TOGETHER" and IGNORE their shock and pronged
spiked pinch choke collars and bribery <{}: ~ ( >

> I've been doing some reading and came across "Littermate Syndrome".

That's very curiHOWES, as THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING EXXXCEPT
in the minds of ETHICKAL BREEDERS who jerk choke shock bribe
crate intimidate an MURDER innocent defenselesss dumb critters.

Their puppys "BOND TOGETHER" IN DEFENSE from their abusers.

Subject: Subject: Training Two Dogs At Once

BlueMoon Wrote:

Hello MOCrab.

Well, I'd take your advice and go thru the killfile as you
have recommended below, but Jerry's system Is WORKING wonders
with these two puppies in a matter of days. He may be abusive
and short-tempered with some people out there because, quite
frankly, I think he cares more about the dogs that the owner's
feelings and feels so strongly about it, it's aggravating to
have "experts" discount his methods.

My husband just got back from taking these 15 week old pups
for a walk, who now respond remarkably well to the "Zena-Zoey-
sit-good-girl!" phrase now when only said once no matter where
they are.

They also respond to the come here command. We trained them
(granted, out of order of the instructions) with the pennies
in the cans only two days ago to come to us when called. I've
since backtracked to do the exercises in the proper order.

They are calm and well-behaved and impress the Hell out of
anyone who sees them. "You're kidding, they're only 14 weeks
old and they are THAT well behaved?" Yessiree Bob, they are,
and we've only had them for 12 days and have been training
them (correctly for 3 days.

We still have more training exercises to do, but why fix
something if it's not broken???? These dogs are happy, we
don't have to yell at or scold them, they are learning to
be secure and to pay attention to us for approval and not
out of fear.

I can only assume some might be threatened by this manual's
methods because it goes against all human logic on how to
train a dog. It certainly didn't make any sense to me, but
I thought what the heck, try it (even tho I still have to
remind myself what to do because my previous limited
experiences with dog training were SO DIFFERENT to the point
that I almost felt like I needed to take my brain out of my
head and put it back in backwards!!!.....).....

BUT THE SYSTEM WORKS!!!

How in the world could someone just "make
something up" and it WORK?>??>?

My husband was very doubtful about this method when I told
him I wanted to try this. His dad was a vet, and certainly
didn't use these methods with the parade of dogs they had
as kids. But now even HE has to admit we're doing something
right here, as our stress and frustration levels have lowered
and EVERYONE is much happier around here, especially the dogs!

I really don't think people are used to the notion that you
can train a dog and it NOT be stressful or difficult. It's
easy IF you do it just like the manual says. It might be
easier for some to NOT do it now and go with the concept of
control rather than respect and understanding, because that's
the way WE are used to thinking and heaven forbid WE change
OUR way of thinking and admit we've done some counterproductive
things in the past, right?

The results I'm seeing here with these puppies speaks
volumes and discounts what anyone tells me otherwise.

This Wit's End manual is now in a binder and we're sticking with it.

BlueMoon

------------------

From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST

> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
>
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?

It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.

Works like a charm.

My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.

Sorry that slipped my mind.

I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.

Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.

Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.

Seemed he learned through osmosis.

Nice side benefit there.

It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.

I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.

I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.

I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.

Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.

Mike

--------------

> What cause me to do some reading about raising two pups
> was the fact they are starting to be more aggressive with
> each other and more dependant on each other.

Well then, BLAME THE DOGS, BLAME THE BREEDER, but DON'T
BLAME YOURSELF for bein a kindly gentle unconditional
loving trusting and respectful owner / handler, Clipzz:

"There's no wrong or right answer here. It all depends
on your situation, your moral values and what you feel
is right."

> They rather play outside then do their duty. We walk
> the dogs (sometimes lite jog for few hundred feet)
> together, play together, train together.

INDEED?

> We had them only for two weeks now,

And you've already had a NEAR DEATH EXXXPERIENCE with them
JUST LIKE HOWE most of the EXXXPERTS you're askin for ADVICE.

"Good luck! When ever my two pups makes a mistake on
the floor...we soak the area with vinegar. Worked
so far. The pups don't use the same spot twice..."

> and they seem to be fine, except they are
> starting to become more aggressive.

Recent studies at Harvard and UCLA SEZ "AGGRESSION IS LEARNED
BEHAVIOR".

> Any thoughts?

You're askin LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS and ACTIVE ACUTE
CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who BLAME THE
DOG, the BREEDER, or even the weather for temperament
and behavior problems CAUSED BY THEIR TRAINING METHODS.

> Is it true, for the dog's best interest, we
> should find another home for one of the dogs?

THAT'S what the MENTAL CASES you're askin
for ADVICE will recommend, Clipzz.

> Concern Puppy owner.

It's IMPOSSIBLE for The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard to believe you are indeed,
a CONCERNED PUPPY OWNER, otherWIZE you'd have studied
and applied the methods taught iny our own FREE COPY
of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training
Method Manual:

The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ;
~ ) >

<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>

> From: SaintJohn_Res
> Date: Mon, May 1 2006 6:22 pm
> Email: "SaintJohn_Res" <mvhsru...@hotmail.com>
> Groups: nb.general

> They LOVE to chew everything and anything.

Destructive chewing EVEN during TEETHING is an
anXXXIHOWESNESS RELIEF MECHANISM, CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING and of curse, offerin EXXXCHANGES
for things the puppy has STOLEN or PUNISHING
them for STUFF <{): ~ ( >

> They are very curious and love constant attention.

INDEEDY. THAT'S HOWE COME ETHICKAL TRAINERS / BREEDERS
lock them in boxes and spray aversives in their faces
and IGNROE THEIR CRIES.

> They need to walk and run as much as possible.

That's IDIOCY. Dogs who "NEED EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE"
are HYPERACTIVE due to REPRESSIVE HANDING METHODS.

> Pleasemake sure not to fall into the trap... They love
> to pretend they want to go outside..just to get a treat!!!

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual

<{} ; ~ ) >

A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.

ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.

You GET The Critter You TRAINED

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING

"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.

What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George

> Make sure your puppy can be flipped on his back without a struggle.

Of curse your puppy should TRUST you enough to allHOWE
you to DO ANYTHING with him, HOWEver, the idea that you
got to FORCE SUBMISSION is HOWE COME these pathteic
miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASES
HURT INTIMDIATE an MURDER innocent defenseless dumb
critters.

EVERYTHING you been taught is DEAD WRONG, Clipzz <{}: ~ ( >

> Play with his paws, spread his toes...make him used
> to the handling because their nails grow FAST! Also...
> THEY STINK!!! haha Yes, they do.

Perhaps "THEY STINK" on accHOWENTA the commercial garbage
dog food they're bein fed, Clipzz <{): ~ ( >

> Natural oils on their coat make them smell musty and sweaty!!

No, inapupriate groomin makes them smell musty and sweaty.

> Puppies who chew should be scolded right away

THAT'S HOWE COME YOUR DOGS FIGHT, Clipzz <{}: ~ ( >

> and make sure to show him the right toys to chew on.

You mean, like RAWHIDE SLIPPERS, clipzz???

BWEEEAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

> They tend to be big eaters and sometimes have a hard
> time to stop drinking water after a big "playtime".

Those are SYMPTOMS of anXXXIHOWESNESS, clipzz <{): ~ ( >

> Be careful to take the water away when that happens.

Dogs shouldn't be watered EXXXCESSIVELY when they're HOT.

> Also, if you're going to bring him outside, please start
> the Advantage treatment for fleas at a young age.

That's freakin POISONHOWES you ignorameHOWES.

> If innactive, he'll get fat around the
> belly and that might affect his/her hips.

THAT'S a load of CRAP you freakin blowhard.

Hip dysplasia is CAUSED by vitamine C deficiency,
like scurvy, not weight, not EXXXCESSIVED EXXXORCISE,
not NUTHIN but DIETARY INSUFFICIENCIES caused by
commercial garbage dog food <{): ~ ( >

> They're not big barkers

Barking is a SYMPTOM of sumpthin WRONG.

> but like I said...

AS you sez, clipzz <{): ~ ( >

> the biggest problem is the cheweing and smell...

No clipzz. The BIGGEST PROBLEM is ignorameHOWES
advice like you're givin AS EVIDENCED by your
own DISMAL FAILURE thus far with your own pups.

> If you wahs them too much, it'll get worse.

THAT'S INSANE, Clipzz <{): ~ ( >

> Just make sure to brush often, coz they do shed. :)

EXXXCESSIVE sheddin UNLESS the dog is blowin coat
due to change in seasons or after whelping is a
SYMPTOM of anXXXIHOWESNESS <{): ~ ( >

You better get started studyin The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse
Training Method Manual <{}: ~ ( >

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazing...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400

Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.

I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.

There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.

Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

From: "Dr. Von" <drv...@mindspring.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups?

> Jen
> "artbylucy" <artbyl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OMudnRS23OLEc7ze...@comcast.com...
> > Hello,
> > Does anyone know of a dedicated newsgroup for
> > positive-only dog training, in particular clicker
> > training?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Lucy
Jen wrote:
> I would love to know of one as well. If there was
> enough people interested maybe we could start one.
> I've just started clicker training my dog and have
> been doing the positive training for a while now.
> I think it's great!!

Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list,
needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I
don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback.

The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate
to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any
more problems and there is no need for any more technique.

With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked
by the entirely practical and effective methods described
in http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u. Free download, nothing
sold, no mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free
support if needed.

With ADHD kids I provide similar information at
www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for
a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply
as directed and have happy healthy doggies or
kiddies.

Not difficult.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake,
choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of
affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities.

You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to
understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he
taught that there are outward and inward responding
organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if
you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training
methods effectively.

Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is
recommended and given only by deranged humans.

Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talking
dogs, cats, people, sheep, even husbands. Dr. Von

From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEINER" <DRV...@EARTHLINK.NET>

To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Proposed article for Wikipedia
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:48:33 -0500

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the cognomen of a dog behaviorist,
Jerry Howe, of Orlando, Fl. Howe's primary teaching is that
dogs deserve unconditional love, respect, and attention and
that by providing these emotional needs dogs will regulate
their own behavior.

Howe is bombastically antagonistic to rewarders, but he is
aggressively hostile to punishers - he refers antagonists
to B.F. Skinner, Mary Cover Jones, and J.B. Watson and
especially to Samuel A. Corson when they mistakenly annunciate
behavioral principles to support their use of punishment.

Punishment always deranges behavior, says Skinner,
Jones, Watson, Corson and Jerry Howe!

Howe developed a sonic device which calms dogs and has been
broadly tested in a wide range of different situations. The
present author is a Who's Who recognized psychologist who was
asked to evaluate Howe's device by a former student.

Howe provided the author with a device, without
charge, and said device worked as reported.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
drv...@earthlink.net
Then cross reference to Jerry Howe, etc.

--------------

Jerry, the difficulty with these ignorant dog molesters
is that they cannot read. Negative reinforcement is no
response by the trainer.

There is positive reinforcement, an action which is followed
by an increase in the targetted behavior (usually called
"reward" which is precisely and technically a misnomer),
negative reinforcement is the absence of any response.

Negative means 'No'.

Skinner's last book, "CUMULATIVE RECORD" reviews this thoroughly.
http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html

Negative reinforcement is stopping an aversive reinforcement
according to this author. Read it, they have a sense of humor!

There are four forms of systematic reinforcement:

do nothing (negative reinforcement)

reward the behavior (positive reinforcement)

punish the behavior (aversive reinforcement) after habituating
the subject to punishment,

stop punishing (relief of aversion, which is negative reinforcement).

Logically, failing to reward after habituating a reward
is also negative reinforcement. Actually intermittent
rewards work better than consistent, invariable rewards,
so there is actually another two categories. Invariable
reinforcement and random reinforcement (on varying schedules).

Punishment is AVERSIVE REINFORCEMENT. Actions which cause
the animal being trained to avoid, avert, cringe away from. Pavlovians
always responded to American psychologist's inability to reproduce
Pavlov's results with dogs with the comment, "American's don't LOVE
their dogs". If you ever observed a Russian psychologist working with
a dog, you'd instantly see the difference. American psychologists were

wooden, robot-like, wanted to be "scientific".

This meant to them that they should display no affection,
or any other emotion with the subjects.

When a Pavlovian dog started to misbehave or fail to respond,
doggie was taken out of the equipment, and taken home for a
loving vacation, with much TLC. Sam Corson, Pavlov's last
student, demonstrated the same relationships at Ohio State.

Interestingly the first page of results for Sam Corson,
dog behaviorist is loaded with Jerry Howe quoting Dr. Von.
heh heh heh

Dr. Von

Oh, by the way, you once had a pompous fellow say that
Dr. Von was a figment of your imagination. I don't
normally mention this, but I have been listed in Who's
Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books,
Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.

These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.

GvH

============

Date Oct 3 2005

Hi Jerry,

It is now 1:130 A.M. and I just finished reading your manual.
Of course I will need to read it many more times in order to
apply the techniques when I get a dog.

I found it even better than I thought it would be
and I had high expectations for it.

It is absolutely new , original, TOTALLY overdue for
the world to learn about to stop all the violence,
fear and abuse.

It is interesting how they have us in a SPELL (source
peoples emotional language legacy) and even with the
best of intentions while doing these awful techniques
that feel violent and inside the heart recoils from
doing them, there is the little voice that say's 'But
it is for the dog's good' and so I have to get tough
and not be a sissy and give in to the horror I am
seeing in the dog and feeling that in my moral compass
this feels wrong, and yet continue to betray myself
and the dog because all the "experts" who say they
love dogs ALL agree that I must do this and what do
I know, they say they love dogs they are "love covered
in fur" as Uncle Matty say's.

He loves dogs to say this so I must be too soft hearted
to recoil from what obviously is my duty toward the dog.

You really broke the spell for me.

It is ground breaking work and I am exited to absorb
it as in the first reading there are so many oh wow
moments that the exercises need to be studied at
another time as the impact of the first reading makes
it so mind altering that the emotional response of
FINALLY SOME SANITY is so strong that the details
of 'the how' to needs for me to be studied later many
times to internalize it so it is done correctly.

Thank you for the amazing manual.

Go jolly,

==========

That's all for NHOWE, fellow dog lovers~!

And when your head stops spinnin, The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard sincerely wishes you and yours happy,
heelthful days, FOREVER <{}; ~ ) >

I remain respectfully, humbly yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{} ; ~ ) >

The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com

unread,

Nov 22, 2006, 2:54:41 PM11/22/06

to

HOWEDY sandy in OK aka Thirty Years And Still Trippin
Acid Annie, you professional dog trainin FRAUD an SCAM
ARTIST,

Sandy in OK wrote:
> Clipzz wrote:
> > We bought two, 8 week old, Shih Tzu. Sister's littermates.
>

> > Any thoughts?
>
> > Is it true, for the dog's best interest, we
> > should find another home for one of the dogs?
> >
> > Concern Puppy owner.
>
> Major disagreements between siblings (especially
> females) can be cause for concern.

BET YOUR LIFE ON IT, sandy in OK. Sibling rivalry
is CAUSED by INCOMPETENT VICIHOWES ignorameHOWES
handlin / parenting, like you teach, you pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin dog abusin fraud <{): ~ ( >

> Can, in fact, be deadly.

Don't you think you should give some INFORMATION
pryor to pullin the FEAR CARD to CONvince Clipzz
to GET RID of her dogs, sandy in OK?

> On the other hand, if they are really young,
> chances are what you are seeing is rough play.

Oh. You mean PLAY FIGHTING. That's better?

> But, if you raise them as a "pair" you are likely to
> have issues even if they get along well together.

THAT'S INSANE, sandy in OK.

> As you've noticed, they need each other and
> you are pretty much "out of the loop"

That's a load of CRAP, sandy in OK. clipzz is
a dog abusin punk thug coward like yourself,
who's PUSHED her dogs to become DEPENDENT on
each other on accHOWENTA she's ABUSED them.

> If you bought them from a responsible breeder,
> you might talk to your breeder about the issue.

As your punk thug coward active acute chronic long
term incurable mental case and doggy day care FRAUD
an SCAM ARTIST matty cogently noted, your advice "IS
BANG ON" despite that he SEZ "ETHICKAL BREEDERS DON'T
SELL TWO SAME AGE PUPS".

> And at this point it would probably be easy
> for them to rehome one of the puppies.

Oh well then, THAT'S what matty meant by "BANG ON", eh sandy?

You got any TRAININ ADVICE that'll make those two
pups PALS and NOT "overly dependent on each other"?

> Otherwise, you need to start limiting their access to each other,

To make them GET ALONG, sandy in OK?

> and doing things with them separately so
> they see you as a main figure in their life.

Ahhh, so this is all abHOWET YOUR FEELINS, eh sandy in OK?

> This doesn't mean they never get to be together -
> just that they have individual time, individual
> training.

That's ABSURD, sandy in OK.

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing

Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard just
raised two same age Rotti sisters and THEY AIN'T AT ALL
"DEPENDENT ON EACH OTHER," nor have they EVER fought.
They SHARE an SHARE ALIKE, and even bring each other
TREATS when asked to SHARE STUFF if WON is in another
room.

> Otherwise they'll depend on each other and train
> themselves (probably to do things you don't really
> want).

Well then, they'd be MUCH MOORE SUCCESSFUL than you
and your ignorameHOWES bribery / avoidance methods.

> Also, if though good training and consistency, you
> become a strong and respected leader for your puppies,

Ahhh yes, by offering and witHOWELDING rewards attention
affection and unconditional love trust and respect, sandy in OK?

> there will likely be less status-related struggles

There AIN'T NO SUCH CRITTER as "STATUS", sandy in OK.
You're a pathetic alphalpha trainer like the ces aka
the dog wheeesperer, only you don't use ALL of the
TOOLS you've got available UNLESS you REALLY REALLY
NEED them. REMEMBER you pathetic lyin dog abusin FRAUD?

> between them later.

You mean, when they go through their adolescent
rebelliHOWES stage, sandy in OK?

> Sandy in OK

The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com

unread,

Nov 22, 2006, 3:02:51 PM11/22/06

to

HOWEDY matty you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal abusin

punk thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental

case and illegal doggy day care FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,

Rocky wrote:
> "Sandy in OK" <celea...@aol.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > If you bought them from a responsible breeder, you
> > might talk to your breeder about the issue.

sandy in OK means to GET RID of WON of her puppys.

> A responsible breeder wouldn't have sold
> the OP a litter pair to begin with,

Sez you, you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin dog abusin FRAUD?

Oh, speakin of which, THAT REMINDS The Sincerely Incredibly

Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,

Birdy And Horsey Wizard that HE ALMOST FORGOT to REPORT
you for TAX EVASION... comin to your HOWES soon, will be the
CONTRIBUTIONS Department, matty. You gotta do your part,
you know!

Oh, bye the bye, matty, you CAN GET JAIL TIME for your offense...

> or at least would have already counseled the downsides.

There AIN'T no "downsides" to raisin puppys IF YOU DON'T ABUSE THEM.

> OP: Sandy's post was mostly bang-on,

sandy in OK is a pathetic miserable stinkin lyin dog abusin
FRAUD like yourself, matty. REMEMBER <{): ~ ) >

> and it's hard to emphasize really how much individual play
> and training time each of your puppies should get.

THAT'S INSANE, matty.

If you knew HOWE to apupriately handle and train dogs
your CASH CUSTOMERS WOULDN'T NEED to take
their doggys to your illegal day care <{}: ~ ( >

> You've made a big commitment.

And you've made a BIG MISTAKE postin to The Sincerely Incredibly

Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy

And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse
Training Method Manual Forums And Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory <{); ~ ) >

> --

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

You think clipzz wants a PIECE OF THIS, matty?:

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.

>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7au...@130.133.1.4...

Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?

Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I only
use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when it's
reallyreally important that my dogs get away from something.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * mch...@lppi.ucsf.edu
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but only when
I'm gone during summertime days - maybe an hour at the most.
(Other than hot days, my dogs are always with me.)

While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised from the
day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not. Rocky will go
looking for food even in areas where there's no possibility of
food.

The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, matty?:

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 15 May 2005 16:03:05 GMT

Subject: Re: What does "bupkis" really mean

shelly said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> you've just described elliott. i don't think Lucy would
> have had a clue what to do with him, though. while he's
> easy and forgiving in terms of handling, i think his prey
> drive and dog aggression would've had her in tears.

Hmm. You've got a point. Rocky is dog-dominant, a surprise to
almost everyone - some of whom know him very well. I wonder how
well Lucy reads dog? If she can't, she'd get some ugly
surprises.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHHAHAAA!!!

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 24 Mar 2005 17:16:47
Subject: Re: help with identifing a dog breed

A mature dog comfortable in its surroundings often
won't need to physically assert its dominance.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 16:58:38 GMT
A Useful Dog

... Rocky, OTOH, I crate when a new dog is introduced -
while he's quick to back off in times of trouble, he's
fairly dominant. -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!

"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," Melanie Lee Chang *
mch...@lppi.ucsf.edu
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:

> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.

yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.

> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

----------------

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily

~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN

THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
------------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

3 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 4:16 pm

montana wildhack wrote:
> On 2006-06-10 16:56:28 -0400, sighthounds & siberians <x...@ncweb.com> said:

> > Plus
> > she's easier to clean up when she

> I'm sorry to read that.

> Aside from the shedding, I hardly know how to act since we have one
> almost 5 year old dog with no major health issues. It's really weird.

I dream of such weirdness. Matty's death reduced the number of males
requiring belly bands for medical reasons, as well as the number of
dogs taking Previcox. But Anna's feeding routines and medications are
really expensive and time-consuming. On a good note, she stopped
eating canned food during the last bout of aspiration pneumonia (#5, I
think) and we switched her to kibble (soaked until soggy, then ground
up with a mixer until it's sort of a paste, and formed into balls).
*Much* cheaper, less messy when she inevitably coughs it all over the
vicinity and the person feeding, higher in calories, and she really
likes it, at least for now. I can't imagine what it would be like to
never chew anything crunchy again, poor dog.

Mustang Sally

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"

"Mirelle" <mirell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156358338.0...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I submit that the term 'choke chain' be changed to Correctional Collar.
> When used properly it does not choke the dog. Dogs pull harder on a
> flat collar then a Correctional Collar
> when used correctly. The Correctional Collar must be in the P formation
> not the Q formation. The Q formation will choke the dog.
> The motion must be mild with a quick snap and release. This way it only
> touches the skin of the dog and the sound of the chain moving is the
> largest factor in the training to heel. As dogs are sensitive to sound.
>
> There must only be a mild snap and a quick release for it to be
> effective. The leash needs to be held correctly for this to work. It
> must be loose at all times while the dog is heeling. Only when there is
> a correction must the leash be taught for less then a second. Then
> praise when the dog heels.
>
> the term 'choke chain' is outdated as it gives the wrong impression
> that it chokes the dog. And of course it does when not put on
> correctly, or the the person using the method is using it improperly.
> So this is why I submit a new name for the name 'choke chain'.
> Correctional collar or Slip collar.
>
> Mirelle

"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...

> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply