Shiloh Shepherd: dangerous dogs
spa...@cornea.gravity.com
The Shiloh breeders I have seen make puppy-millers look like choirboys. The
Shiloh Shepherds are dog-aggressive, child-aggressive, people-aggressive
and have bad hips to boot. They're too big to do any useful work that
the GSDs are known for. I cannot imagine why some moron would have created
a breed like this one. Hip dysplacia is one of their biggest problems.
Besides, there's Malamute and Wolf blood in them. Could it be the wolf
in them that makes them so aggressive, unpredictable and dangerous?
brent sobool
no, a low percentage wolf cross (if in fact the shiloh's have any in them)
will calm out the high-strung shepherd .. also any percentage wolf cross
will tend to undo dysplacia as the angulation of the rear will disappear ..
this is not to defend the shiloh, of which i know nothing about except that
they're really big shepherds .. and they may be dog-people-child aggressive
.. but please to not attribute this to some idea that they may be low
percentage crosses because they are not ..
spa...@cornea.gravity.com wrote in message
<1998060721...@basement.replay.com>...
kat...@juno.com
In article <#s45wink9GA.254@upnetnews05>,
"brent sobool" <us...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> no, a low percentage wolf cross (if in fact the shiloh's have any in them)
> will calm out the high-strung shepherd .. also any percentage wolf cross
> will tend to undo dysplacia as the angulation of the rear will disappear ..
Incredible! Where can I find the studies on this?
KAT
-
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
somewhere out on the loony fringe I would guess - as wolves are not less
high strung than dogs and as they certainly are known to show incidences of
hip displasia according to studies I have seen - I would guess this is a
hybrid person looking for justification responding to a troll about Shiloh
Shepherds.
Nancy
kat...@juno.com wrote in article <6lfvq9$2n5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
brent sobool
nancy,
did i say wolves were less high-strung than dogs? no, please note that i
said will calm down the high-strung shepherd .. are shepherds ( specifically
american lines) high-strung? lets not get into that right now as it is being
dealt with in another thread .. as for displasia, wolves will have less
incidences of it compared to most shepherds because there is no angulation
of the back but they are still a large dog and ANY large dog has a chance of
displasia ..
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bd92e2$ad961400$2cd8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
DogStar716
as for displasia, wolves will have less
incidences of it compared to most shepherds because there is no angulation
of the back but they are still a large dog and ANY large dog has a chance of
displasia ..
Are you saying that steep angulation is the cause of hip dysplasia? Very
interesting.... Can you show some facts?
Dogstar716
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are
his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true,
to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such
devotion"
-- Unknow
Sudhir B Nayak
Currently gait analysis is underway for dogs with HD and without HD. I
believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD.
There are no results in any peer reviewed journals as of late May. I
have not looked after that I have been busy. Does not answer the
questiona asked about angulation but I did have that information handy.
DogStar716 (dogst...@aol.com) wrote:
: as for displasia, wolves will have less
--
Sudhir Nayak
Department of Biology
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6018
email: sna...@mail.sas.upenn.edu
na...@wista.wistar.upenn.edu
.^. .^.
/ \ / \
__--^^^--__ ,' \/ `-.
,. _-^ @@@@@@@/ ^-_.' \
/ \ ,' \@@@@,' | ,---.___. \
\ `' `--' /~~\ | \ `. |
`. | , | \ \ !
`. `.| | | | i
\ `'. | # |# | !
\ \ \ / / i
\ \ `. `._.'__.' |
`| | `. \
/ / `. /%%%%%%\ | ARF!
| / ^--__ /\ |%%%%%%% | | ARF!
| | | |^-.| |. .| | \ \%%%%%_/ /
| | | | | | `^' | | `. ,'
( ) ( ) | | | | `-____-^
`-' `-' | | | |
( ) ( )
`-' `-'
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together
>Currently gait analysis is underway for dogs with HD and without HD. I
>believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD.
I can't see what that has to do with dysplasia. There are many breeds with
a much worse incidence of dysplasia, which are not at all angled. Boykins
come to mind, as do Otterhounds, CLumbers and St. Bernards.
For that matter, GSD's are ranked at 24 by OFA for % of dysplastic
submissions. Goldens, Gordons, Chessies, Newfs (oops!), and Elkhounds have
a greater rate. None of these dogs, or the ones mentioned in my previous
paragraph, have weirdly angled backs or legs.
BTW, the Maine Coon Cat ranks between Filas and Chessies in its rate of
dysplasia, which would put it at #11 if it were a dog breed.
Ann, Twzl & Sligo
--
"I could save every dog in every shelter. But what good would that do?"
Michael Patton's answer to dog overpopulation
============================================================================
Elizabeth B. Naime
In article <uIkFkNwk9GA.71@upnetnews05>, "brent sobool" <us...@msn.com> writes:
> dealt with in another thread .. as for displasia, wolves will have less
> incidences of it compared to most shepherds because there is no angulation
> of the back but they are still a large dog and ANY large dog has a chance of
> displasia ..
But what has angulation got to do with hip dysplasia?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted
els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu *
CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Nothing as far as anyone in the dog world can tell. I have a breed with a
fair incidence of HD and we presume it has to do with the years of breeding
for straight angulation!
My question is how can he suggest that adding in 'wolf' will calm a 'high
strung' shepherd down? Who the heck would breed a dog like that anyway let
alone breed it to a wolf with its extremely high level of wariness over new
things in its environment?
Nancy
Elizabeth B. Naime <els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in article
<1998Jun...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>...
DogStar716
>I
>believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD
There are a lot of breeds where dysplasia is common that aren't angulated quite
so "radically" as the German Shepherd. Seems like over the years, Shepherds
are getting more and more angulated (I personally think it's getting a little
extreme looking). But I have never heard that angulation has anything to do
with dysplasia per say.
Sudhir B Nayak
I did not mean to imply that it did. I dont know. Nobody knows. As far
as I know that study is limited to only a couple of breeds (GSD is one of
them). One of the parameters they will be looking at is the rear
angulation. At best it would be coorelative if they were to make a
statement eventually. Coorelation does not imply cause. However, it
would be something to think about.
I dont even want to imply that
strong rear angulation is bad.....I dont have a clue as to what breeding
for angulation does to the hip joint. I can admit that. I can also
admit that I dont know much about GSDs. I have
no idea what judges look for and I have no idea what would do well in
performance. I do see many of them in agility and those dogs do not have
the sharp angulation in the rear. Thay may be because they would not do
well in comformation so the owners try agility or that they do better. I
dont know that either.
DogStar716 (dogst...@aol.com) wrote:
: >I
--
brent sobool
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bd9318$9b862580$2dd8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>Nothing as far as anyone in the dog world can tell. I have a breed with a
>fair incidence of HD and we presume it has to do with the years of breeding
>for straight angulation!
so you've bred for years, then you must be part of the group responsible for
making all the purebred shepherds where i live (west coast, canada) look
like giant over-sized 70 - 80 lb rats that can barely walk with severe
attitude problems ..
>My question is how can he suggest that adding in 'wolf' will calm a 'high
>strung' shepherd down? Who the heck would breed a dog like that anyway let
>alone breed it to a wolf with its extremely high level of wariness over new
>things in its environment?
who would? somebody that wanted to bring the shepherd breed back to
something that it once was .. yes nancy, it was only about 70 years ago
that 100 % wolves were bred into the shepherd line .. and as for suggesting
.. i've seen it .. every cross up here is very even tempered .. much more so
than many purebred dogs of whatever line ..
>Nancy
>
brent sobool
clarification on the 70 years .. 100 years ago first registered GSD ' Horand
von Grafath SZ#1 admitted to the Verein fur Deutsch Schaferhunde S.V.
studbbooks in 1899 .. early documents list wolves as crossed with german
sheepdogs as the foundation for this breed .. also 4 pure 100% wolves within
2 pages of entries from SZ#41 to SZ#76 .. the GSD is still known as the
alsation wolfdog in some parts of the world ..
brent sobool
and thusly nancy, a low content cross would only be bringing the breed back
to what it was .. is that so bad?
peace and out for now ..
dogsnus
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together wrote:
>
> In <6lh9va$576$1...@netnews.upenn.edu> sna...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Sudhir B Nayak) writes:
>
> >believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD.
>
> I can't see what that has to do with dysplasia. There are many breeds with
> a much worse incidence of dysplasia, which are not at all angled. Boykins
> come to mind, as do Otterhounds, CLumbers and St. Bernards.
>
> For that matter, GSD's are ranked at 24 by OFA for % of dysplastic
> submissions. Goldens, Gordons, Chessies, Newfs (oops!), and Elkhounds have
> a greater rate. None of these dogs, or the ones mentioned in my previous
> paragraph, have weirdly angled backs or legs.
>
> BTW, the Maine Coon Cat ranks between Filas and Chessies in its rate of
> dysplasia, which would put it at #11 if it were a dog breed.
for this. I understand the Fila not being screened as much, due to
it's rarity compared to GSD's and Goldens and Labs, but...
the Maine Coon Cat??
Wow!
Is there an URL you can direct me to read up on this?
Thanks,
Terri
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together
In <6lhs97$p...@news3.newsguy.com> dogsnus <"Terri"@cyberhighway .net> writes:
>it's rarity compared to GSD's and Goldens and Labs, but...
>the Maine Coon Cat??
It's a BIG kitty. :)
>Is there an URL you can direct me to read up on this?
I would guess it's at the ofa site, but I have ofa info that they mailed
me. That's where I got my information from. I bet though that if you did a
search at the site, you could turn up Maine Coon as a breed!
saxon
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together wrote:
>
> In <6lh9va$576$1...@netnews.upenn.edu> sna...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Sudhir B Nayak) writes:
>
> Currently gait analysis is underway for dogs with HD and without HD. I
>believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD.
>
> >I can't see what that has to do with dysplasia.
Ann,
While I agree that angulation *may* have nothing to do with incidence of
dysplasia, I do have some thoughts (by the way, I don't think it's the
angulation that brings up dysplasia, I think that it's the breeding for
nothing but)...
I am pleased, by the way, that Sudhir has hipped us to research being
done on dysplasia in dogs. Of course, as always I am sceptical of the
protocol, it's my nature.
There are a few ways that this study could fail (or shall I say, could
fail US), and that's if they do not look at breeders of comparable
quality, and we all know what I'm talking about here- we could have a
atudy where one group (say, puppy-mill, or BYB bred) GSDs are
over-represented, and there goes the legitimacty of the study. It's
easy to say, that for instance, all dogs were obtained at the shelter,
but that loses MANY good dogs from the study...
So, what I am saying is that for ANY study, even studies that SUPPORT
the position that we side with- scrutiny is in order... and when we say-
"but it's a peer-reviewed journal, that *must* have done it right...
well, don't bet on it- I've seen lots of spurious methods, and
conclusions that say what the data only implies....
Sorry, I'm crabby tonight,
Saxon
brent sobool
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bd933a$c0b4c2e0$41d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>Wolf crosses rarely are as steady as actual full bred dogs are and low
>percentage wolf crosses that people think are steady are just as likely to
>be full dog based on genetic chance.
>Nancy
>
now where would you find info on crosses not being as steady? my own
personal experience with a lot of crosses (that's what happens up here in
the wilds of canada) is that they are more steady than purebreds .. as for
genetic chance it also works the other way around .. wolf crosses are just
as likely to be full wolf based on genetic chance ..
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Poor person cannot even read - what makes you thing that my breed is the
GSD when *I* stated my breed was bred for STRAIGHT angulation? Do let me
know if you ever find a GSD standard that calls for that.
What makes you think you can *tell* what actual genetic percentage a wolf
cross is? you have a pretty good chance of losing ALL the wolf genetic
complement pretty quickly when you cross with enough dogs and you have NO
clue which genes may have swung across matrices in the first supposed
crosses nor in the more current crossings or if they are even close to the
same.
Angulation has no documentable relationship to HD.
Wolf crosses rarely are as steady as actual full bred dogs are and low
percentage wolf crosses that people think are steady are just as likely to
be full dog based on genetic chance.
Nancy
brent sobool <us...@msn.com> wrote in article
<ukvRD6yk9GA.242@upnetnews05>...
>
> Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
> <01bd9318$9b862580$2dd8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
snip some dumb stuff
Chris Kosmakos
dogsnus ("Terri"@cyberhighway.net) wrote:
:
: Boggle! I had no idea that cat-breeders were doing health testing
: for this. I understand the Fila not being screened as much, due to
: the Maine Coon Cat??
: Wow!
: Is there an URL you can direct me to read up on this?
Last year's numbers are at www.offa.org (yes, 2 f's) under the FAQs.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Chris Kosmakos
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together (alg...@panix.com) wrote:
: In <6lh9va$576$1...@netnews.upenn.edu> sna...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Sudhir B Nayak) writes:
: >Currently gait analysis is underway for dogs with HD and without HD. I
: >believe one of the things they are factoring in angulation in the GSD.
: I can't see what that has to do with dysplasia. There are many breeds with
: a much worse incidence of dysplasia, which are not at all angled. Boykins
: come to mind, as do Otterhounds, CLumbers and St. Bernards.
BINGO! The SV standard for GSDs calls for the croup to be at angle 23
degrees from horizontal. If you follow the AKC standard, the same angle
would be 30-35 degrees. Greyhounds, with very low CHD rates, have angulated
croups over 50 degrees. St. Bernards and Berners, OTOH, have almost no
angulation and high CHD rates. Then you have to factor in those dogs with
poor croups that are so short that it increases the angles from horizontal.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
WebbWeave
Quote:
I understand the Fila not being screened as much, due to
it's rarity compared to GSD's and Goldens and Labs, but...
the Maine Coon Cat??
*I* understand the Fila not being screened as much, due to who wants to get
that close to one? Joke, there.
Also am boggled about the MCccccats. Does it impair a cat's function as much
(more?) than a dog's?
Jane Webb
Mudpie and Moonpie (hee hee I got Fang the Cat to fall off the counter today!)
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Lets see - could it be that the wolf crosses end up in shelters on a higher
average, maybe its the way that shelters for hybrids are always so full
they cannot take on more animals, or perhaps its the way they show up in
the paper as free to a good home without kids pets and with a secure fenced
run that makes me think they are not as steady? - or perhaps its the way
the responsible owners describe them as not really suitable for the average
home... You just never know what you will get with a wolf/dog cross - you
have a lot better shot of knowing when you get a pure dog - and even more
when you get a purebred of a particular breed.
Now as to your assertion that you could have a pure wolf by breeding a wolf
cross to other dogs - are the schools up north that lacking in the teaching
of math skills?
Nancy
brent sobool <us...@msn.com> wrote in article
<#bVC3S2k9GA.252@upnetnews05>...
>
> Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
> <01bd933a$c0b4c2e0$41d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> now where would you find info on crosses not being as steady? my own
> personal experience with a lot of crosses (that's what happens up here in
> the wilds of canada) is that they are more steady than purebreds .. as
for
> genetic chance it also works the other way around .. wolf crosses are
just
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
I would bet it does not - based on my toy breed of dogs having BIS dogs
that are just about missing hips the displasia was so bad. A lot of the
visible problems with HD has to do with the weight of the dog affected as
well as its pain tolerance.
I had not thought about HD in cats but I know my vet says he repairs more
patellar luxation in cats than in dogs - which came as a surprise to me!
Nancy
WebbWeave <webb...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806090655...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
M. Shirley Chong
brent sobool wrote:
> did i say wolves were less high-strung than dogs? no, please note that i
> said will calm down the high-strung shepherd .. are shepherds ( specifically
> american lines) high-strung? lets not get into that right now as it is being
> dealt with in another thread .. as for displasia, wolves will have less
> incidences of it compared to most shepherds because there is no angulation
> of the back but they are still a large dog and ANY large dog has a chance of
> displasia ..
Malcom Willis (author of a lengthy book about the GSD; I recently moved
and haven't yet unpacked my books, so I can't cite the specific title,
tho' I think it is something like GENETIC HISTORY OF THE GERMAN
SHEPHERD) found there was no correlation between rear angulation in GSDs
and hip dysplasia. He is not a fan of the American style GSD from what I
could see.
This does fit with my own experience that angulation is not an accurate
predictor of hip dysplasia. I'm not crazy about over angulated GSD
myself--but I don't feel the need to justify it by spreading unfounding
rumours.
M. Shirley Chong
to reply, take the trees out of my e-mail address
brent sobool
no nancy, its the schools down south that you went to .. read in your
previous message ..
"Wolf crosses rarely are as steady as actual full bred dogs are and low
percentage wolf crosses that people think are steady are just as likely to
be full dog based on genetic chance.
Nancy"
i was just stating your opinion when taken to its conclusion .. IF it could
be "full dog" YOUR WORDS .. then it could also be full wolf .. this is a
STUPID STATEMENT .. i know that, that's why i said it to show the STUPIDITY
of YOUR PREVIOUS POST ..
. o 0 (no wonder why the big american corps prefer canadian grads)
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bd93ad$255fc2e0$37d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
brent sobool
as for the rest of your post ..
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bd93ad$255fc2e0$37d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>Lets see - could it be that the wolf crosses end up in shelters on a higher
>average, maybe its the way that shelters for hybrids are always so full
>they cannot take on more animals,
there are no crosses in the shelters up here .. they are in fact one of the
few dogs people keep for life ..
or perhaps its the way they show up in
>the paper as free to a good home without kids pets and with a secure fenced
>run that makes me think they are not as steady?
never in any paper i've read .. lots of pits and rotties free to good homes
though ..
- or perhaps its the way
>the responsible owners describe them as not really suitable for the average
>home... You just never know what you will get with a wolf/dog cross - you
>have a lot better shot of knowing when you get a pure dog - and even more
>when you get a purebred of a particular breed.
please read my previous posts about shepherds being wolf crosses (from only
70 years ago) again nancy ..
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Ok using your amazing mathematical abilities please explain how a LOW
PERCENTAGE wolf cross created by crossing a wolf into generations of dogs
could actually be a full wolf - sheesh no wonder other people talk the way
they do about Canucks - they must have met you or the folks who cannot tell
the difference between themselves a breed of dogs.!
Nancy
brent sobool <us...@msn.com> wrote in article
<eZmeng8k9GA.236@upnetnews05>...
> no nancy, its the schools down south that you went to .. read in your
> previous message ..
>
> "Wolf crosses rarely are as steady as actual full bred dogs are and low
> percentage wolf crosses that people think are steady are just as likely
to
> be full dog based on genetic chance.
> Nancy"
>
> i was just stating your opinion when taken to its conclusion .. IF it
could
> be "full dog" YOUR WORDS .. then it could also be full wolf .. this is a
> STUPID STATEMENT .. i know that, that's why i said it to show the
STUPIDITY
> of YOUR PREVIOUS POST ..
>
> . o 0 (no wonder why the big american corps prefer canadian grads)
>
>
> Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
> <01bd93ad$255fc2e0$37d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
> >>
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
brent sobool <us...@msn.com> wrote in article snip
> please read my previous posts about shepherds being wolf crosses (from
only
> 70 years ago) again nancy ..
>
I ignored it because the GSD people say it ain't so at all!
Nancy
WebbWeave
Quote:
You just never know what you will get with a wolf/dog cross - you
have a lot better shot of knowing when you get a pure dog - and even more
when you get a purebred of a particular breed.
True enough. Never really been tempted myself, except for a GoldenXwolf I met
once. Hang-down ears! One of the most beautiful animals I've *ever* clapped eye
to.
Sweet, too, if a bit shy.
Jane Webb
M&M Pie
Chris Kosmakos
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin (fmka...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: brent sobool <us...@msn.com> wrote in article snip
: > please read my previous posts about shepherds being wolf crosses (from
: >only 70 years ago)
: I ignored it because the GSD people say it ain't so at all!
: Nancy
Yup - From Strickland & Moses, GSD history prior to 1910:
"In the early days (of the SV) many of the Shepherd dogs were of
unknown ancestry, but those with appropriate breed characteristic were
bred and recorded, even though their pedigrees were partially unknown."
No wolves in there, kids. Foundation breeds are thought to include the
Belgians and Norwegian Elkhounds and who knows what else. For many
years the Germans had used a wide variety of dogs to herd their sheep,
with no consistency of type. I think some of the "wolf legend" came from
attempts prior to the SV to merge the various regional strains into a
standard size, shape, ear carriage, etc. There was a failed club, called
the Phylax Society that was "based solely on its members' common interest
in breeding dogs to resemble wolves, presumably hoping to cash in on
their high market value." (Strickland & Moses, again).
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
My suspicion has always been that the confusion about wolf additives to GSD
as reported in some publications had to do more with poor translations from
German to English than actual genetics :-)
Nancy
Chris Kosmakos <chri...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<chriskozE...@netcom.com>...
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Yep the shy coyote/lab mix I met was cute - looked like a lab but I asked
the owner *what* it was because it was *not* a dog. He was SHOCKED that I
knew that it was not full dog as nobody had ever pegged that before - but
it was IMO so obvious that it was not a dog just based on how it walked
down the street that I could not understand how anyone would think it a
dog. This fellow informed me he was making extra money while in college by
breeding a captive male coyote (kept caged in his apartment) to his samoyed
and lab bitches and selling the pups for good money :-( - offered to sell
me a pup too <g> I said no thanks! It was interesting to see this though
and makes me wonder about some of the spooky lab mixes found in local
shelters...
Nancy
WebbWeave <webb...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806092110...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
M1stic24
In response to the discussion about wether or not angulation has something to
do with hip dysplasia:
Now realize that I have done a minimal amount of research on CHD, and I am just
trying to get others' opinions, and more info. From what I have heard/read this
is what I understand to be true: what are considered dysplastic hips in some
breeds (eg. a Newfoundland, a breed that is not severely angulated) would be
"normal" in another breed (say, a GSD). Breeds that are more angulated, because
of their very stucture, do not have hips as tight as lesser-angulated dogs.
Breeds are not rated against one standard of "perfect hips" but against
standards of what is normal for each specific breed.The amount of joint laxity
in an AmStaff that would be considered dysplastic, would be considered normal
in a GSD, for intance because of the difference of angulation in the two
breeds.
~Mary H.~
saxon
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote:
This fellow informed me he was making extra money while in college by
> breeding a captive male coyote (kept caged in his apartment) to his samoyed
> and lab bitches and selling the pups for good money :-( - offered to sell
> me a pup too <g> I said no thanks! It was interesting to see this though
> and makes me wonder about some of the spooky lab mixes found in local
> shelters...
> Nancy
wow nancy, you have alot more restraint that I do- I would have said
yes, found out where he lived, and reported him. I'm quite sure that
keeping a caged coyote with out a license (as in a rehab, research or
wildlife possession permit, which I would really doubt this ass has) is
a federal crime.
Saxon
dogsnus
Twzl & Sligo, Happy Together wrote:
>
> In <6lhs97$p...@news3.newsguy.com> dogsnus <"Terri"@cyberhighway .net> writes:
>
> >the Maine Coon Cat??
>
>
>
> me. That's where I got my information from. I bet though that if you did a
> search at the site, you could turn up Maine Coon as a breed!
Sure enough! On the site, the Maine Coon Cat is listed as a breed in
the OFA database!
Terri
Marveling..
Gonna have to start going to the cat groups to find out what the
average cat breeder does in health screening these days..
Also frequenting the equestrian groups, and seeing very little
screening done before breeding.
I'm told by an equestrain co-worker that the lack of health
screening done is starting to bite them (equestrian's) in the butt, too.
Chris Kosmakos
M1stic24 (m1st...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: is what I understand to be true: what are considered dysplastic hips in some
: breeds (eg. a Newfoundland, a breed that is not severely angulated) would be
: "normal" in another breed (say, a GSD). Breeds that are more angulated, because
: of their very stucture, do not have hips as tight as lesser-angulated dogs.
: Breeds are not rated against one standard of "perfect hips" but against
: standards of what is normal for each specific breed.The amount of joint laxity
: in an AmStaff that would be considered dysplastic, would be considered normal
: in a GSD, for intance because of the difference of angulation in the two
: breeds.
No - you've come to some very wrong conclusions. Dysplastic is dysplastic,
regardless of breed. Joint laxity and dysplasia are not the same things.
The PennHip measurements of joint laxity are measured within a breed.
Angulation is not related to the formation and fit of the hip socket.
When I look at the x-rays of my rottie/elkhound vs. those of my GSD, I
can see the angulation in the croup, but the complete formation of their
hip sockets and the way that the top of the femur fits into those sockets
looks much the same. Just as neither of those dogs is dysplastic, despite
their different angulations, the x-rays of dysplastic dogs of different
breeds would look much the same. If I compared the x-rays of a Bernese
Mtn. Dog and GSD who had the same degrees of dysplasia, I would see incomplete
hip sockets and femur bones that were not securely seated in those sockets.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
M1stic24
>No - you've come to some very wrong conclusions. Dysplastic is dysplastic,
>regardless of breed.
Why are breeds rated against each other, than, and not against a single
"standard" for hips? Doesn't PennHip give ratings that are based upon the joint
laxity? The higher the number, the more laxity, and the less good the rating
is considered? This is what I have read, and I have had a vet tell me this is
so. I have had discussions with breeders about this. ?????
~Mary H.~
Chris Kosmakos
M1stic24 (m1st...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: Why are breeds rated against each other, than, and not against a single
: "standard" for hips? Doesn't PennHip give ratings that are based upon the joint
: laxity? The higher the number, the more laxity, and the less good the rating
: is considered?
You're right - PennHip measures joint laxity and correlates it within breed.
But PennHip does not measure dysplasia and never claimed to. There is
evidence that joint laxity is one factor of dysplasia and can also be a
predicator of later development of CHD - but it isn't dysplasia in an of
itself.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
M1stic24
>You're right - PennHip measures joint laxity and correlates it within breed.
>But PennHip does not measure dysplasia and never claimed to. There is
>evidence that joint laxity is one factor of dysplasia and can also be a
>predicator of later development of CHD - but it isn't dysplasia in an of
>itself.
>
>Lynn K.
>--
Thank you Lynn! But now I am more confused....if PennHip only measures joint
laxity and joint laxity may or may not be an indicator of CHD, why would the
ratings be considered OK, and by some, even better than OFA?
~Mary H.~
M1stic24
>Thank you Lynn! But now I am more confused....if PennHip only measures joint
>laxity and joint laxity may or may not be an indicator of CHD, why would the
>ratings be considered OK, and by some, even better than OFA?
>
>~Mary H.~
OK, I just answered my own questions by visiting the OFA and PennHip websites.
Very informative, esp. the facts about why position of the hips in the xrays as
required by OFA actually
tend to make the hips look tighter in the sockets than they actually are.
Something to think about. The PennHip site also mentions the reason it was
started was to provide a better why to diagnose hip dysplasia, and also that
dogs with joint laxity have a good chance of developing CHD.
~Mary H.~
