Rottweilers and jumping
Steve Riley
with a 6' wood picket fence. When our children (age 2 and 4 1/2) are outside
playing in our yard, the dogs become quite agitated and begin barking. The
slats in the fence are only 1/4" apart, but apparently the dogs sense the
children. We are concerned that the dogs might jump the fence. Is it
possible for a rottweiler to jump a 6' fence? Thanks very much.
Steve
ster...@home.com
Elaine Gallant
Yes, of course a dog as big as a grown man can get over a 6 ft. fence.
Personally, I consider toddlers to be incompatible with aggressive dogs big
enough to pop them like ticks if they got the notion.
These brutes have no business getting all agitated and bothered when your
babies use your yard.
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%yDM6.88620$2U.40...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Lone Hansen
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%yDM6.88620$2U.40...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Why not talk to your neighbour ans ask how their dogs are with small
children??
If the dogs are safe with small children, then you have nothing to worry
about and then why not let them be introduced ??
This way the dogs will get to know the source of the noise next door. My GSD
loves children. He thinks it is sooo funny to play catch with them on the
lawn. Somehow he knows that he has to be gentle with babies.
Talk to your neighbours and get your concernes put to rest. Maybe you
could offer to pay half of the expenses to a higher fence ....if the case is
that the dogs do not like small children ( here a line in poem by Frost
springs to mind "Good fences makes good neighbours..........")
regards
Lone.
>
spamh8r
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Yes, of course a dog as big as a grown man can get over a 6 ft. fence.
> Personally, I consider toddlers to be incompatible with aggressive dogs big
> enough to pop them like ticks if they got the notion.
how do you know the dogs are aggressive? because they're rottweilers?
i haven't been around this group long enough to recognize if you're one
of the ignorant ones, but I've got most of them pegged. is my work not
done?
if the space between the pickets is only 1/4", they can't see what's
making the noise. add to the fact the fence is 6' high they can't see
over it easy.
> These brutes have no business getting all agitated and bothered when your
> babies use your yard.
true. but like the thread about the akita and the yorkie, they're
*dogs*. just because they're rottweilers doesn't mean they'll eat the
children.
Jeffrey Cheek
"spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cnFM6.1314$G5.3...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> i haven't been around this group long enough to recognize if you're one
> of the ignorant ones, but I've got most of them pegged. is my work not
> done?
Dear Child-less,
No [your work is not done]. I think you are leaving one out.
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/index.html
Elaine Gallant
> "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, of course a dog as big as a grown man can get over a 6 ft. fence.
> > Personally, I consider toddlers to be incompatible with aggressive dogs
big
> > enough to pop them like ticks if they got the notion.
>
> how do you know the dogs are aggressive? because they're rottweilers?
>
use their own yard?
> i haven't been around this group long enough to recognize if you're one
> of the ignorant ones, but I've got most of them pegged. is my work not
> done?
Screw you. Barking and freaking out when the residents use they OWN yard is
not ok.
> if the space between the pickets is only 1/4", they can't see what's
> making the noise. add to the fact the fence is 6' high they can't see
> over it easy.
>
> > These brutes have no business getting all agitated and bothered when
your
> > babies use your yard.
>
> true. but like the thread about the akita and the yorkie, they're
> *dogs*. just because they're rottweilers doesn't mean they'll eat the
> children.
Annoying the family and interrupting the use of their yard is trouble
enough.
Steve Riley
just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself, I
wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not, then
I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here, and I
appreciate the sensitivity of the situation. I'm rather reluctant to bear
any cost of raising the fence, though; while I do feel that the safety of my
children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
cause in creating.
To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant knows the dogs
are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see our
kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
Steve
ster...@home.com
"Lone Hansen" <lo...@zorland.dk> wrote in message
news:9dv386$1k5$1...@news.inet.tele.dk...
Jeffrey Cheek
A "higher" fence is futile. These dogs are more likely to batter the slats
of the fence and break through. An electronic fence done properly will stop
them encroaching, but the assertive barking will continue.
I agree that you should open communications with the neighbors. Let them
know your concerns.
Do this: Have them introduce their dogs to you and your children at [the
back door] of their home. If that goes well, formally invite all of them
over to your back door, on leash of course. Hopefully, for the dogs' sake,
this will be enough.
On the other hand, also discuss with the neighbor that if the [obnoxious and
threatening] behavior persists, something MUST be done to insure your
children's well-being and comfort playing [in their own back yard for
Christ's sake].
If the neighbor is an asshole and refuses to discuss the issue, do what most
fathers would do. ;-)
Jerry Howe
"Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
news:TTFM6.9928$Az.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Dear Child-less,
> No [your work is not done]. I think you are leaving one out.
> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/index.html
Pssst! He don't need no dog bite law. He needs some dog training
advice to prevent a dog bite.
Got any dog training information? j;~}
Jeffrey Cheek
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ytGM6.228657$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
yes. i provided it directly, tiny. to you and others living in disneyworld i
provide stats. got any tricyclics? take them.
Jerry Howe
"Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
news:DdGM6.9978$Az.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> A "higher" fence is futile.
And unnecessary. All he's got to do is train the dogs not to bark or
challenge the fence. EZ work, if you know HOWE.
> These dogs are more likely to batter the slats
> of the fence and break through.
Right. But not if we take a few miutes and train the dogs.
> An electronic fence done properly will stop
> them encroaching, but the assertive barking will continue.
That barking is what's making the dog's more out of control. The
barking needs to be addressed so the dogs can calm down. Shocking
the dogs for approaching the fence might make the dogs hate and want
to try to kill the kids if they blame the kids for getting shocked
when they approach the fence...
That's what happened to the little dog in "interested in hearing"
and that's what caused lia's dog Cubbe to snap at a child a couple
weeks ago in the thread "1 step forward." Remember? One dead and one
to go. One more close call with Cubbe, and lia will kill her.
> I agree that you should open communications with the neighbors.
And buy one of your medical grade shock devices?
> Let them know your concerns.
Maybe split the cost of your shock fence?
> Do this: Have them introduce their dogs to you and your children
at
> [the back door] of their home.
Why? The neighbor isn't bright enough to stop his dogs from barking
at them and their kids, why should they trust them to handle their
dogs properly to introduce them to their little munchkins? I
wouldn't go meet two rotties who've been barking at me through the
fence being handled by someone with probably little or no ability to
control their dogs in the first place. Sounds dangerous to me.
> If that goes well,
And if it don't, you go get a new kid?
> formally invite all of them over to your back door, on leash of
> course. Hopefully, for the dogs' sake, this will be enough.
Might work. Might not. But that's probably not going to solve the
problem for long, because of the nature of barrier frustration
syndrome. That's something they didn't teach you about in shock
fence sales school. koehler would have you use a BB gun or a "good
slingshot."
> On the other hand, also discuss with the neighbor that if the
> [obnoxious and threatening] behavior persists, something MUST be
> done to insure your children's well-being and comfort playing [in
> their own back yard for Christ's sake].
And they'll tell him to go $#!T in his hat. His dog's got as much
right to bark and enjoy his backyard as their kids have the right to
play in their back yard. If they don't like the noise, they can go
complain to town hall. Most towns won't do anything about a barking
dog complaint even after 11 pm or before 7 a.m. So, threats won't
help and may make the problem wrorse. Ferchrissakes.
> If the neighbor is an asshole and refuses to discuss the issue, do
> what most fathers would do. ;-)
Get your dirty @$$ chewed to bits threatening the neighbor with two
aggressive rotties??? BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
BRILLIANT. Now we see why koehler trainers can't train a dog without
hurting them... Bye! j;~}
Jerry Howe
"Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
news:gCGM6.10025$Az.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Steve Riley
and the children seems a little dangerous to me. I don't yet entirely trust
the neighbor's ability to control their dogs. I'm hoping to learn more when
I go talk to them.
But Jerry, I must respectfully disagree with the end of your post. While the
dogs do have the right to play in their own yard, that right ends when their
behavior creates 1) a threatening environment preventing my children from
enjoying our yard and 2) a condition in which I become concerned for my
children's safety.
Steve
ster...@home.com
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0KGM6.228947$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Jeffrey Cheek
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0KGM6.228947$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> at them and their kids, why should they trust them to handle their
Try projecting yourself out of your own CFL trashy neighborhood, then you
can presume the neighbor is not ignorant... Better still, get a damn job,
and off public assistance, then you won't have time to project anything,
especially your wholesale abuse.
"Munchkins"? Don't you mean to say children? Or are you feeling alienated
again, like when you characterized any and all industrious workers as
"Chinks". Didn't John's bitch-slapping cure you of that?
Jerry Howe
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:62GM6.26968$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Steve Riley
my children are "raising heel." If my children were antagonizing the dogs, I
would immediately take care of the situation. But such isn't the case: my
children are quiet and minding their own business. The dogs are creating a
threatening situation, scaring my children and worring me and my wife with
their aggressive behavior. They most certainly do *not* have this right.
Steve
ster...@home.com
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xsHM6.230046$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Jerry Howe
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:95GM6.88760$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors.
The neighbors are probably at a loss as to what to do to control
their dogs.
> I first asked the question here just to determine whether that's
> necessary.
Right. And you didn't get the kind of advice you need.
> Not being a dog owner myself, I wanted to know if the rottweilers
> were even capable of jumping.
They can sometimes clear a six foot fence. But that's not the
problem. The problem is the fence itself causes barrier frustration
anxiety. Once that is broken, then the dogs won't be upset and won't
try to challenge the fence.
> If not, then I was just going to drop the concern.
Yeah, but they don't know what to do about it or they probably would
have.
> But since I see that the dogs could jump the fence if provoked, I
> will talk to the neighbors about it.
Sounds like they're already provoked. I wouldn't want to rile them
any more than necessary till something can be done to address the
barking. The dog's intent might be only to play, but the longer they
are aggitated, the more likely they'll become aggressive.
> I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here,
Not with me your not. Emotions don't have any place in dog training.
> and I appreciate the sensitivity of the situation.
Sensitivity is a rare comodity around here. It's almost totally
absent.
> I'm rather reluctant to bear any cost of raising the fence,
though;
Of course not. You shouldn't need to do anything but say "hey
mister, can you try to control your dogs so they don't scare my
kids?" And he'll probably say "I'd love to shut them up but I don't
know HOWE." And then you could say you do, and he told you to give
him the instructions they need, and you'll help out if they want to
break the problem and then you can all live peacefully. Right?
> while I do feel that the safety of my children is my
responsibility, I
> don't feel that it's my responsibility to contribute financially
to a
> situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no cause in creating.
Of course not.
> To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant
> knows the dogs are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair
> assumption.
Well, Elaine is a little intolerant and a little quick on the draw
sometimes.
> The dogs are normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the
> dogs bark quite wildly and hang very close to the fence.
It could be that they just love kids. But that's something you don't
need to find out. That's not a concern of mine as a dog trainer
looking at your situation.
> So regardless of whether they can see our kids through the 1/4"
> gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something is there, and
> are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
Yes, it would me too. But that's still just presuming the dog's
intent is aggressive. If they really love kids, the same behavior
might be demonstrated. So, it's anybody's guess. And even if the
dogs love kids, the fence itself is the cause of the anxiety which
can make dogs do things they ordinarily would not do. I never make
friends with a dog through a fence because it's risky behavior.
> Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
Yes, but it would help if you had some suggestions for them to be
able to deal with the issue. Give him my post "sound distraction and
praise techniques" and perhaps the both of you can use the
techniques to break the barking.
If he has difficulty getting the distraction and praise techniques
to work that would require that the owner be able to call the dogs
to begin the deconditioning process again. That's all taught in my
FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual. It would be in his best
interest anyway, to read and apply all of the techniques to learn to
properly handle and control his dogs.
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
David & Janette Sweeney
to the neighbours, tell them your concerns, also I would contact the closest
Rottie club or breeder and get informed on how a stable Rottie should act.
Keep in mind all dogs are pack animals, and will excite and stimulate each
other, not always a good thing, your already on the right track seeking
advice here, but without any of us coming to your house and seeing first
hand, we can only give band aid advice, I would hate to see any child bitten
so, keep asking questions of people you can talk to face to face.
good luck...Dave
A Rottie owner
"Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
news:nhHM6.10130$Az.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jerry Howe
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:JzHM6.88850$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> Jerry, please be realistic and reread the entire thread. Nowhere
> have I said my children are "raising heel."
I know that. I was just saying you both have the right to enjoy your
property in whateve manner turns you on, that's all. For you it
might be having the neighborhood stick ball tournaments in your
yard. For him it might be having a litter of puppies once a year. I
dunno.
> If my children were antagonizing the dogs,
I never meant to suggest they were. I'm on your side.
> I would immediately take care of the situation.
Of course, but that's cause you know HOWE. The kids listen to you.
The neighbor's dogs probably don't listen to their people like your
kids do.
> But such isn't the case: my children are quiet and minding their
> own business.
Right. I realize that.
> The dogs are creating a threatening situation,
Indeed.
> scaring my children and worring me and my wife with
> their aggressive behavior.
No doubt. But just the fact that they're barking doesn't imply
they're aggressive. It might be hard to tell even if we were
watching them.
> They most certainly do *not* have this right.
Not if they don't want to cause you a headache. But if they don't
care, there's not much you can do. I've got some training solutions
in a post I just did a few minutes ago in this thread.
> Steve
> ster...@home.com
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
Jerry Howe
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:dgHM6.88824$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> But Jerry, I must respectfully disagree with the end of your post.
> While the dogs do have the right to play in their own yard, that
> right ends when their behavior creates 1) a threatening
> environment preventing my children from enjoying our yard and 2)
> a condition in which I become concerned for my
> children's safety.
Sort of. The idea of a threat is unproven. The only real complaint
is some noise during daylight hours.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be as concerned as you are, but there's not
much you can do legally if the neighbor tells you he don't care.
That's why I've got some suggestions in another post for you. Jerry.
Jerry Howe
"Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
news:nhHM6.10130$Az.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:0KGM6.228947$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Why? The neighbor isn't bright enough to stop his dogs from
> > barking at them and their kids, why
> > should they trust them to handle their
> > dogs properly to introduce them to their little munchkins?...
> Try projecting yourself out of your own CFL trashy neighborhood,
Boy, I wish. Got drug store 24 next door. Got whore to door service
too. And they got three or four pit bulls to boot.
> then you can presume the neighbor is not ignorant...
Hey! They learned not to punish their dogs and they're not doing too
bad. I just had to go tell them they couldn't fight their dogs a
couple times, and they got the message.
> Better still, get a damn job,
Naah. I'm done with that. Took three years longer than I
anticipated.
> and off public assistance,
I always give to charity. There's nothing the matter with accepting
it when we need it, that's why it's there. Free for all.
> then you won't have time to project anything,
> especially your wholesale abuse.
Got any problems for discussing dog training with me?
> "Munchkins"? Don't you mean to say children? Or are you feeling
> alienated again,
Watch out or I'll loose the flying monkey's on yer stinking butt.
> like when you characterized any and all industrious workers as
> "Chinks".
What's the staff at your medical shock device company got to do with
this? I though we was talking dog training. Besides, your company is
probably going down the tubes with that court case involving the
fried dog. Lucky thing they don't employ child labor overseas. Them
poor kids would be outta work when IF buys the farm in court...
hahahahahaha!!!
> Didn't John's bitch-slapping cure you of that?
Nah. Talk dog training. Get the best of me there, and then you can
crow. Till then, let's talk about the dogs we know of who've bought
the farm because their people used medical grade shock devices on
their pets???
Care to tell us moore about training the dog to the electric shock
fence you sell??? Hmm?
Patch
.
>
> These brutes have no business getting all agitated and bothered when your
> babies use your yard.
>
I will not break the rules.
I will not break the rules.
I will not break the rules.
I will not break the
I will not break
I will not
I will..........................
*NOT*.
Phew !!!!!
Patch
David & Janette Sweeney
"Patch" <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:_jIM6.22463$tU6.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Elaine Gallant
> The dogs got just as much right to raise heel as their kids do...
I don't know the term, "raise heel". Last time I checked, people had a
right to use their yards without fear of being eaten alive.
Elaine Gallant
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question here
> just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself,
I
> wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not,
then
> I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
> jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
Living next door to dog who already have some aggression toward your
toddlers is not good. At some point, one, or both of those dogs are going to
get access to those kids. It's statistically just a matter if time.
> I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here, and I
> appreciate the sensitivity of the situation. I'm rather reluctant to bear
> any cost of raising the fence,
You wouldn't necessarily need to raise it. Block it so the dogs can't see
in.
though; while I do feel that the safety of my
> children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> cause in creating.
>
> To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant knows the dogs
> are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
> normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
> and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see
our
> kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
> is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
The dogs are territorial, and consider YOUR yard to be part of their
territory.
> Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
It is highly unlikely the dogs' owners will be able to do anything about the
barking or aggression. It's just not possible for most people to get that
kind control over dogs.
Speaking to your neighbors is just as likely to make them suspicious and
bring bad feelings between neighbors. Also... at some point if you want to
take matters into your own hands, you won't be able to if you have a history
of complaining about the dogs.
Elaine Gallant
> They can sometimes clear a six foot fence. But that's not the
> problem. The problem is the fence itself causes barrier frustration
> anxiety. Once that is broken, then the dogs won't be upset and won't
> try to challenge the fence.
Unless they decide to form a pack like the three Rotts who jumped their
fence. The ones who hunted down the little black boy and tore him limb from
limb.
Elaine Gallant
> Hello jeffrey,
>
> "Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
> news:DdGM6.9978$Az.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> > A "higher" fence is futile.
>
> And unnecessary. All he's got to do is train the dogs not to bark or
> challenge the fence. EZ work, if you know HOWE.
Ya, you're right. It's a snap for a professional animal trainer.... like
YOU.
Elaine Gallant
> This is a tricky situation indeed. As Jerry mentions, introducing the dogs
> and the children seems a little dangerous to me.
Na...not at all. Just take a magic marker and write, "BAIT" on each child's
head.
Karen J. Cravens
>Uh....because they start barking and getting agititated when the
>toddlers use their own yard?
My dogs will bark and get "agitated" when kids are playing nearby. It
doesn't mean they're aggressive. It means they want to participate, and
are frustrated because they can't.
(Geez. Go play in kookland with Jerry...)
--
Karen J. Cravens
Elaine Gallant
> Hello Steve,
>
> "Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:dgHM6.88824$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> > But Jerry, I must respectfully disagree with the end of your post.
> > While the dogs do have the right to play in their own yard, that
> > right ends when their behavior creates 1) a threatening
> > environment preventing my children from enjoying our yard and 2)
> > a condition in which I become concerned for my
> > children's safety.
>
> Sort of. The idea of a threat is unproven. The only real complaint
> is some noise during daylight hours.
....ya.... but when that "noise" is growling, howling, and jaw smacking
around your baby, it gets worrysome...
Jeffrey Cheek
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:CIIM6.4101$oi1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Speaking to your neighbors is just as likely to make them suspicious and
> bring bad feelings between neighbors.
>Also... at some point if you want to
> take matters into your own hands, you won't be able to if you have a
history
> of complaining about the dogs.
>
>
Since when does speaking with a neighbor cause suspicion and limit our
rights? Jes...
Jdoee
Since you are not a dog person, allow me to explain a few peculiarities of
doggie behavior. I wish more people would ask questions when they are
trying to get along with households greatly different from theirs.
I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> cause in creating.
The behavior of these two dogs isn't necessarily aggression. In your other
post you describe them as barking and standing close to the fence. They may
be doing the doggie equivalent of saying "I'm out here! Come see me! Pay
attention to me!" If you could stop looking at them as being aggressive,
and instead looked at them as being very interested in what is happening in
your yard, that might help you and the neighbor get a better handle on
things.
Your basic premise, that you shouldn't contribute to mediating aggressive
dogs, is off-base, I think. Rather, you and your neighbor have the
situation of their dogs are interested in your kids, which worries you. You
and your neighbor have both added ingredients to this mix, and you and your
neighbor should both work to solve it.
Approaching your neighbor and telling him nicely that you don't know
anything about dogs, and are worried about his dogs barking at your kids,
and would like to prevent agitating the dogs or the kids is a great next
step. Don't tell him you are worried because his dogs are Rotties, that
approach will get you nowhere. Rotties come up high in bite statistics, but
that is because the stats are skewed for a couple reasons. Rotties are
extremely popular: greater numbers in general number mean greater
representation in any specific class. Rotties are big and powerful: a big
and powerful dog will do more damage when he bites than a little dog. And,
people tend not to report bites by small dogs, because the damage is
*usually* less.
Dogs will often bark less at things they can't see. A temporary solution
would be to hang tarps or builders plastic on your side of the fence. Tell
your neighbor in advance when you will be out in the yard doing this work,
so he can keep the dogs in. This solution would be very cheap. I also like
your idea of raising the fence. I have seen, but not used, plastic panels
that go atop a wood fence and look like wood. These panels would be an easy
way to raise the fence without tearing the whole thing down and starting
over.
Now about kids and small dogs: you are absolutely right to be very
concerned. Kids are very different from adult humans; they run and shriek
and bob around and move erratically. This can fire a dog's chase and prey
instincts, especially if the kids are so young they don't understand how to
prevent this. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, who has studied such things, once
remarked that the most common constant in dog bites is the presence of a
small boy. One of the difficulties in your situation is your kids have not
yet reached the age of reason. So it would be hard to coach them in not
running in front of the dogs, not yelling, freezing and making themselves
small if the dogs got in with them, avoiding eye contact, not hugging the
dogs, and not patting them on the head but rather rubbing their chest.
Having your kids meet the dogs is a go if the owner says his dogs are
accustomed to small kids. If the dogs are not, don't do it. With the
owner's permission, you could try tossing dog treats over the fence when you
are out with the kids. But you have to get across to your kids that only
you are allowed to do this. Under no circumstances should you reach through
the fence to them, unless you become good buddies.
So, I hope you and your neighbor have a good conversation and are able to
work things out. My dog is spooked by small kids (she was spooked by
everything, but she's getting better.) I handled this by getting a 6' solid
fence built on my property, always having her on leash when we go to the
car, etc. She has growled at the neighbor kids, they know not to mess with
her, but she never has the opportunity to bite. She has escaped a couple
times, but since I stay on good terms with my neighbors and make every
effort to contain my dog I haven't had any problems with the authorities. I
had to explain to one neighbor that calling animal control was the right
thing to do if she was running loose and I was not right behind her chasing
her. I live on a busy street, and I would rather pay 50$ to the city to
bail her out then pay hundreds or thousands to an emergency vet. Good luck,
and if you need any more dog info please post more. jdoee and Stacey Dog
----------
In article <95GM6.88760$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "Steve Riley"
<ster...@home.com> wrote:
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question here
> just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself, I
> wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. snip
Patch
> This is a tricky situation indeed.
It doesnt have to be - have you spoken to your new neighbours at all -
either a friendly acknowledgment or a hello as yet ?
As Jerry mentions, introducing the dogs
> and the children seems a little dangerous to me. I don't yet entirely
trust
> the neighbor's ability to control their dogs. I'm hoping to learn more
when
> I go talk to them.
Please do keep an open mind. Many dogs will bark and *seem* aggressive when
they cant see who`s there - its absolutely normal, what ever the breed.
They could be :
Interested and want to know you
Defending their own territory by warning you not to enter
Concerned because they are in new surroundings themselves.
>
> But Jerry, I must respectfully disagree with the end of your post. While
the
> dogs do have the right to play in their own yard, that right ends when
their
> behavior creates 1) a threatening environment preventing my children from
> enjoying our yard and 2) a condition in which I become concerned for my
> children's safety.
Please bear in mind that, while your concern is understandable, it could be
unjustified too.
My dogs guard my home and the garden, but they will not exit it to attack.
If some one enters, uninvited, they will deal with that person but they will
not go out of territory to do it. On the corner of the road where I live, is
a house with a high fence all round. A dog lives there. When I walk my dogs
past the fence, the dog goes nuts - because he doesnt know who I am or if I
will try to get in uninvited. His barking is to let me know he is there.
With your neighbours, if you havent spoken to them at all yet, I would start
off with a "welcome to the neighbourhhod" chat, and *gently* swing the
conversation to the dogs. One thing that always works with doggy people is
to compliment their dog, so telling your neighbour they are handsome or some
such will help get them onside for further discussion. Do the same as you
have done here - tell them you dont know much about dogs, and that you`ve
heard so many stories about Rotties that you are a little anxious about them
and take it from there.:-)
Patch
spamh8r
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question here
> just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself, I
> wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not, then
> I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
> jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
I only recall one person saying they'd jump the fence (though I could
have missed one). She also said they were aggressive yet she's never
met the dogs. My 1 year old cant jump my 4' fence. she can put her
paws on top to make it easier to kiss the neighbors but can't jump it.
even if she could it'd take a LOT of effort and creativity on her part
so I *highly* doubt 6' would be an issue.
on the other hand you're very right that you should talk with the
neighbors. if you have never met the dogs you may not be sure as to
their temperment. meeting them yourself will give you a pretty good
idea as to how you should be comfort-wise, though there is a difference
with dogs and how they perceive adults vs. children but overall the
feeling you get should gauge the course of action you may decide to take.
> I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here, and I
> appreciate the sensitivity of the situation. I'm rather reluctant to bear
> any cost of raising the fence, though; while I do feel that the safety of my
> children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> cause in creating.
you're more than welcome in asking. there's a common misconception that
rottweilers are aggressive or dangerous by nature. they *can* be, but
then again so can any dog. the problem is owners who create that type
of dog--then you do have a problem. the difference in an aggressive
rottweiler and an aggressive poodle is pretty obvious, but there is at
least one reported case of even a 4 lb pomeranian killing a child. in
any event, don't take one person's "advice" that the dogs are
aggressive. how are the owners? are they nice? are they people you
generally stay away from because they give you the creeps or are they
nice people? when we got our dog, Lucy, the neighbors didn't even
flinch (there's a 4 year old next door who was about 3 when we got
Lucy). they knew *us* and knew that our dog would not be a problem.
and she hasn't been. she loves them to death :-)
on the matter of raising the fence, your homeowners association might
have a limit as to how high the fence can be. ours limits to 4 (though
someone does have a taller privacy fence--hmmm), but a relative has a
limit of 6'. even if you did want to spend the money, you may be
prohibited from doing so.
> To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant knows the dogs
> are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
> normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
> and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see our
> kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
> is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
you're right... you should be concerned. they could be excited and want
to play, barking because they can't be over there. but until you're
sure, you'll never relax. a dog with the size and strength of a
rottweiler can (and does) frighten a lot of people, often unecessarily.
there are a lot of news reports about rotties hurting people, but one
thing to remember is that over the course of the last 8 years or so,
there were "only" 15-18 people killed by rottweilers and/or pit bulls.
in that time there would have been about 600,000 rottweilers
*registered*. the odds are pretty light. (and yes I know that I dont
have the figures for *attacks* but I recently read about the killings
but in any event the percentages are low but I do agree that even a LOW
percentage can be too much).
> Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
I never once questioned that was the right thing to do and it is
something I recommend. You should also meet the dogs if you haven't
already, and maybe see about your kids meeting the dogs. you never
mentioned if the owners have any children... do they?
> Steve
> ster...@home.com
good luck and let us know what happens ok? one last thing--I'm not a
rottweiler freak but I do get defensive when people ignorantly label the
dog as aggressive. had the dogs been poodles and the same comment was
made, I don't know that I'd have reacted the same way.
take care, and again, good luck.
spamh8r
doing this while the kids are being quiet you should talk to the owners
soon just to be sure. hindsight is 20/20.
my original reading (or misreading) of the original message did not lead
me to believe the kids are just sitting there quietly but more or less
doing the typical "kids screaming chasing each other" etc.
In article <JzHM6.88850$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>,
spamh8r
> "Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:95GM6.88760$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question here
> > just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself,
> I
> > wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not,
> then
> > I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
> > jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
>
> Living next door to dog who already have some aggression toward your
> toddlers is not good. At some point, one, or both of those dogs are going to
> get access to those kids. It's statistically just a matter if time.
please cite your sources for these "statistics" you mention. you
certainly must have sources to make such a statement.
> though; while I do feel that the safety of my
> > children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> > contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> > cause in creating.
> >
> > To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant knows the dogs
> > are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
> > normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
> > and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see
> our
> > kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
> > is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
>
> The dogs are territorial, and consider YOUR yard to be part of their
> territory.
how do you know what the dogs are thinking?
> > Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
>
> It is highly unlikely the dogs' owners will be able to do anything about the
> barking or aggression. It's just not possible for most people to get that
> kind control over dogs.
>
> Speaking to your neighbors is just as likely to make them suspicious and
> bring bad feelings between neighbors. Also... at some point if you want to
> take matters into your own hands, you won't be able to if you have a history
> of complaining about the dogs.
so he should just ignore it and *not* talk to the neighbords? he should
just shoot the dogs?
spamh8r
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> > challenge the fence. EZ work, if you know HOWE.
>
> Ya, you're right. It's a snap for a professional animal trainer.... like
> YOU.
>
>
or you. though i dont know that even jerry can know what the dogs are
thinking from hundreds of miles away...
spamh8r
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Sort of. The idea of a threat is unproven. The only real complaint
> > is some noise during daylight hours.
>
> ....ya.... but when that "noise" is growling, howling, and jaw smacking
> around your baby, it gets worrysome...
he never said growling... or howling or even "jaw smacking" unless you
mean "barking". here's the quote from his origal post:
"When our children (age 2 and 4 1/2) are outside playing in our yard,
the dogs become quite agitated and begin barking"
if he later said that they did those things, please post it so i can
reread it or at least let me know he did and I'll look for it. i doubt
you'll find it. please stick to the facts, it makes the whole
discussion a LOT easier if you don't lie.
Alison
Have a chat with your neighbour and tell him about your concerns. Ask if the
dogs are used to children. It might be the noise of the children they don't
like. Kids do tend to shriek and cry.
Do the dogs bark at you as well as the children?
Dogs can jump 6ft but if they were going to jump over I think they would
have done it by now.
Alison
Steve Riley <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%yDM6.88620$2U.40...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> Our new neighbors have two grown rottweilers. Their backyard is enclosed
> with a 6' wood picket fence. When our children (age 2 and 4 1/2) are
outside
> playing in our yard, the dogs become quite agitated and begin barking. The
> slats in the fence are only 1/4" apart, but apparently the dogs sense the
> children. We are concerned that the dogs might jump the fence. Is it
> possible for a rottweiler to jump a 6' fence? Thanks very much.
>
> Steve
> ster...@home.com
>
>
>
Evelyn Ruut
> Jerry, please be realistic and reread the entire thread. Nowhere have I
said
> my children are "raising heel." If my children were antagonizing the dogs,
I
> would immediately take care of the situation. But such isn't the case: my
> children are quiet and minding their own business. The dogs are creating a
> threatening situation, scaring my children and worring me and my wife with
> their aggressive behavior. They most certainly do *not* have this right.
>
> Steve
> ster...@home.com
Dear Steve,
Do you know your neighbors personally? Have you or your children ever met
these dogs in person? It may seem odd, but in spite of all the
hell-raising they put up, they might be very nice dogs who are not
aggressive. The dogs could be just barking because there is someone in the
next yard they cannot investigate, see or smell closely, and they may also
be perceiving it as intruders. Dogs don't know the difference between
property lines.
I suggest that you speak to the dog owners, and ask if you and your children
could possibly meet the dogs and make some efforts to befriend them somehow
(if that is possible). If the dogs meet and know the kids they may no
longer perceive them as "intruding strangers hiding behind that fence".
I had a wonderful dog years ago, and we had a terraced property with a
pretty good size terrace wall going up to the next yard. Every time my
dogs were out for a brief airing the next door neighbor would curse at the
dogs and act angry with them. Naturally one day when I was with the dogs,
the man was reaching down to pet the dog and the dog grabbed his hand and
gave him a puncture bite. The dog never bit anyone before or after in his
entire life, and all I can assume is that he perceived this man as "that
nasty guy who acts aggressively to us all the time" and gave him doggie
"what for". It was too little too late trying to introduce them.
Since this involves children it only makes sense to me that the best way to
resolve the conflict and confusion is a training situation, repeated often
enough to change the dogs perception of your kids. Your dog owning
neighbor should help you and your children be introduced to the dogs in some
controlled but gentle way so there may still be a little barking in the
future, but less aggression and hence less danger.
I hate to bring this up, but it would be remiss of me not to point out that
a couple of Rotties recently killed a child. It was in the papers. It is
my opinion that people who own large breeds known for their aggression,
should work with their dogs enough so that they are not in a situation where
they could harm anyone, especially neighbors children.
Maybe the neighbor ought to try (after a gentle and long indoor
introduction) having YOUR KIDS at his direction and under his supervision,
take the dogs one at a time on a leash around HIS yard then YOURS. (the
leash signifying submission of some small kind to the dog).
I would also have your child give the dog a treat or two. All this under
the strict supervision of the dog owner and you, and both dogs absolutely
firmly leashed and kept separate, with a harsh reprimand if ANY aggression
is shown at all. This should give the dog the idea that these kids are
their friends and that they may even have to "obey" these kids under certain
owner induced circumstances.
While on leash, the owner should have your child make the dog sit and give
the dog a treat or something and say "good boy" a few times. This will
change the position your child holds in the world, in this dogs mind.
What I am suggesting here is that your neighbor has the problem and that
since the aggression might come from his dogs, he needs to cooperate with
you in developing some kind of a rapport with your kids so they can play in
their own yard without fear. I would do the kid/leash walk around the yard
every day for a while so the dogs get to really know these kids and obey
them in small commands, like "sit" and the like.
I must tell you that a responsible dog owner would not only be thrilled to
do this exercise with his dogs and your kids, but ready, willing and able.
He should cooperate 100%, that is, if he is a responsible dog owner.
A responsible dog owner would also be thrilled to have someone do a little
leash work with his dog, simply as a good exercise.
I have trained a lot of dogs to behave around a lot of different people in
the past, and that is how I would do it. Both dogs on leash and kept
separate but able to see one another, owner present, kids introduced gently,
then handed a leash and advised under the owners supervision to do this or
that.
Best Regards,
Evelyn
Alison
Patch <d.guipag...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:_jIM6.22463$tU6.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
Down , Patch, DOWN! (bg)
Alison
>
>
Jerry Howe
his neighbor's dogs. Friends enough to say hello and g'bye is about
what would float his boat, I'd say.
"Evelyn Ruut" <mama...@ulster.net> wrote in message
news:%bOM6.8922$l5.69...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
Jerry Howe
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:6LIM6.4113$oi1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jerry Howe
"spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:WRNM6.2432$G5.5...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > And unnecessary. All he's got to do is train the dogs not to
> > > bark or challenge the fence. EZ work, if you know HOWE.
> > Ya, you're right. It's a snap for a professional animal
trainer....
> > like YOU.
> or you.
Good point. That's my job. I teach folks HOWE to get the same
results I do.
> though i dont know that even jerry can know what the dogs are
> thinking from hundreds of miles away...
For starters, you could reexamine our former understanding and
measurments of the speed of light and it's limitation on our
perception of time and space, and you might shorten the distance
considerably.
But we don't need to go to quantum physics to recognize a dog
behavior problem and come up with effective solutions. Training a
dog is not magick. It's a simple matter of understanding what turns
them on and off, and using their predictable, natural, instinctive,
reflexive responses and our understanding of conditioning and
deconditioning techniques to change or extinguish any behavior.
As dog trainers our biggest mistake is looking too closely at the
symptoms of a behavior rather than the causes of the symptoms. Many
symptoms can be triggered by one behavior problem. We can play
whack-a-mole with the symptoms and they'll just keep changing until
the cause of the behavior is fixed.
The cause of most dog behaviors is our inappropriate or ineffective
methods of dealing with behaviors. As example, let's look at crating
to train housebreaking. The trainer being fearful of housebreaking
accidents reinforcing further housebreaking difficulty will crate
the dog to avoid accidents. The dog learns to keep his crate clean,
and regards the rest of the house as his territory to roam and
relieve himself.
Another example would be walking a dog pulling on lead. The pulling
causes anxiety to build up and when the dog returns home from what
should have been a relaxing walk, he's overstimulated and chews the
furniture as an anxiety relief mechanism.
O.K. So you scold the dog for chewing the furniture and the dog
realizes he can stop you dead in your tracks to scold him for
putting his teeth into your couch. So he does it again. So you give
him another scolding and a "time out" to think about the error of
his ways.
The confinement makes him more anxious and eager to come out to
play, and when he's released he's out of control bouncing off the
walls, so you put him outside, only to find he's digging and barking
and trying to jump the fence. So you bring him in, and he paces and
whines. So you crate him again.
So he gets bored and anxious and licks a hole in his paws or chews a
chunk out of his side. So you put him on cortisone which makes him
urinate constantly so you put him outside and before you know it,
you begin obedience school for the next nine months till you've
fought with every behavior problem in creation.
Why? Because you chose to address the symptoms of the behavior,
rather than train the dog to understand what's up. The housebreaking
is a natural, instinctive behavior. All we need to do is give the
dog the freedom to roam your territory and he'll see it as his den
and keep it clean. All you have to do is interrupt any thoughts of
mistakes, and show him where to go, and it's done.
For chewing furniture, all we have to do is interrupt him several
times on several pieces of furniture, and he'll learn to leave them
alone. It's easy if you don't make a huge scene out of things.
But our experts don't believe you can train a dog without using
corrective and force methods. That's why they consistantly have the
same behavior problems. My student's don't have the "adolescent
rebellious" stage and chewing after teething and out of control
behaviors requiring months of obedience school.
The entire job of training a dog to do anything you want is simple,
if you know HOWE.
The other secret is giving the dog a payoff for every
time they look at you. Each time you notice eye
contact from your dog, you must praise him verbally,
to keep him always thinking of you and to prevent his
idle mind from doing the devil's work.
You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY
handle and train your dog using non force, non
confronatational, scientific and psychological
conditioning and deconditioning techniques in the
FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual.
For additional FREE help for any dog or cat
behavior questions, please call or write.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Fax: (208)460-4270
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems
are learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the
learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers,
once challenged, develop and continue to grow to
make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition,
constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Jerry Howe
show, not her intellect...
"spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:BZNM6.2436$G5.5...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
Jerry Howe
would be impossible without learning HOWE...
"spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:SQNM6.2431$G5.5...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
Lone Hansen
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:95GM6.88760$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors.
-Good,
I first asked the question here
> just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself,
I
> wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not,
then
> I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
> jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
>
> I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here, and I
> appreciate the sensitivity of the situation. I'm rather reluctant to bear
> any cost of raising the fence, though; while I do feel that the safety of
my
> children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> cause in creating.
-Well, you do not really know if the dogs are aggressive, do you???
Barking is one thing, attacking is a whole other story. Most dogs will react
when confronted with noises that they do not know, or where they cannot see
what is going on. My dog sounds like a hell hound when strangers enters the
building, and he gets twice as big as he really is, due to the fact that
every single hair stands. He looks as if he is ready to take a big bite, but
when I open the door he is all wagging tail and smile. So barking has not
really got anything to do with how the dog will react when introduced to
you.
-I surgested, that you should offer to pay half the expenses, because
you are the one who is worried. It does not seem as if the dogs have a
history of jumping the fence. So I think that the most fair thing would be
for you to have a conversation with your neighbour, and if you agree to make
the fence higher then for you to share the expenses. After all you do have
to live next door, and it seems to me to be a silly thing to let it cause
any problems, and you will benefit from the fence too. I do understand how
you feel, but try to see it from the neighbours point of view. Would you
find it fair that you should pay this and that, because your neighbour felt
that your dogs might be a potentially danger ???
>
> To answer "spamh8r's" question about whether Elaine Gallant knows the dogs
> are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
> normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
> and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see
our
> kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
> is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.-
Most likely the dogs are going....Hey it sounds like they are having a ball
in there, who are they? What are they doing? Can we join in the fun ??
>
> Approaching the neighbors is definitely the next thing to do.
-Good luck. And Hey, the neighbour might turn out to be great, and who
knows so might the dogs. Please try to keep an open mind towards it ok?
Most dogs are loud, but darlings when you get to know them.
Elaine Gallant
"Evelyn Ruut" <mama...@ulster.net> wrote in message
news:%bOM6.8922$l5.69...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
>
> news:JzHM6.88850$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > Jerry, please be realistic and reread the entire thread. Nowhere have I
> said
> > my children are "raising heel." If my children were antagonizing the
dogs,
> I
> > would immediately take care of the situation. But such isn't the case:
my
> > children are quiet and minding their own business. The dogs are creating
a
> > threatening situation, scaring my children and worring me and my wife
with
> > their aggressive behavior. They most certainly do *not* have this right.
> >
> > Steve
> > ster...@home.com
>
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> Do you know your neighbors personally? Have you or your children ever
met
> these dogs in person?
I fail to see the point of dangling a two year old in front of a child
aggressive Rottweiler.
Elaine Gallant
If someone decides to retain the option of "dealing" with the matter
themselves, it is better not to leave a trail of complaints about the
animals.
Elaine Gallant
> Yup. Just go poison or shoot the neighbor's dogs cause training them
> would be impossible without learning HOWE...
Or they could move. These people live under constant threat of violence
against their children. Remaining unaware of how much damage the dogs can do
is no excuse. The plain fact of the matter is if the dogs hang together,
pack mentality will lead them to view the toddlers as prey.
The story will end up in the papers, and everyone is going to go through the
motions of being "all surprised" the dogs ate the baby.
They won't mention the fact these dogs spent the last several months
salivating over the children and trying to get at them. At some point, they
certainly could. When and if they do, those kids don't have a prayer.
It's no different from any other method of dog aggitation. It's like
dangling a cat over their heads for months. You KNOW what dogs like that do
when they catch up to the cat. It's all over.
Elaine Gallant
"Jdoee" <jd...@home.com> wrote in message
news:U4JM6.17303$p33.3...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> Hello Steve. Yes, you have jumped headfirst into a group of dog lovers.
> Since you are not a dog person, allow me to explain a few peculiarities of
> doggie behavior. I wish more people would ask questions when they are
> trying to get along with households greatly different from theirs.
>
> I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> > contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had
no
> > cause in creating.
>
> The behavior of these two dogs isn't necessarily aggression.
It's aggression. Furthermore, it's aggression directed at humans. This is no
different from a dog getting all flustered and aggitated at any other
stimulus.
It's basically the recipe for training attack dogs. Get them all aggitated
using a barrier. Once they get past that barrier, look out.
The difference being that attack trained dogs are also trained to "off" and
release. There is no off switch on these Rotts.
Elaine Gallant
> In article <95GM6.88760$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>,
> "Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question
here
> > just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner
myself, I
> > wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not,
then
> > I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs
could
> > jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
>
> I only recall one person saying they'd jump the fence
Jump the fence, put their big heads through it, break loose when the they
are being transported, and they are loose at the same time as their
prey-of-choice. That is, when the children are in front and available.
(though I could
> have missed one). She also said they were aggressive yet she's never
> met the dogs.
You really don't know anything about training dogs.
Elaine Gallant
that's like dangling a cat over their heads, and not being sure they're cat
aggressive when they salivate, and get all aggitated to get at the cat.
Elaine Gallant
> In article <sOIM6.4133$oi1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > Sort of. The idea of a threat is unproven. The only real complaint
> > > is some noise during daylight hours.
> >
> > ....ya.... but when that "noise" is growling, howling, and jaw smacking
> > around your baby, it gets worrysome...
>
> he never said growling... or howling or even "jaw smacking" unless you
> mean "barking". here's the quote from his origal post:
Subsitute "cat" for "baby". Then make the same statement.
Elaine Gallant
> It's not a matter of outright lying. It's her fears running the
> show, not her intellect...
You know the story of the rotts who escaped the yard, killing the little
boy. Please tell that story. Analyze why the dogs killed the boy. You KNOW
why they did it.
Elaine Gallant
"Alison" <alis...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9e0aeh$bieb$1...@ID-80210.news.dfncis.de...
> Hi steve,
> Have a chat with your neighbour and tell him about your concerns. Ask if
the
> dogs are used to children. It might be the noise of the children they
don't
> like. Kids do tend to shriek and cry.
> Do the dogs bark at you as well as the children?
> Dogs can jump 6ft but if they were going to jump over I think they would
> have done it by now.
> Alison
As time goes on, they will grow more bold.
Jason & Denise
> Yes, I intend to talk with the neighbors. I first asked the question here
> just to determine whether that's necessary. Not being a dog owner myself,
I
> wanted to know if the rottweilers were even capable of jumping. If not,
then
> I was just going to drop the concern. But since I see that the dogs could
> jump the fence if provoked, I will talk to the neighbors about it.
>
> I know I may be treading on thin ice among the dog lovers here, and I
> appreciate the sensitivity of the situation. I'm rather reluctant to bear
> any cost of raising the fence, though; while I do feel that the safety of
my
> children is my responsibility, I don't feel that it's my responsibility to
> contribute financially to a situation -- aggressive dogs -- that I had no
> cause in creating.
>
> are aggressive, I do believe Elaine's is a fair assumption. The dogs are
> normally quiet. But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
> and hang very close to the fence. So regardless of whether they can see
our
> kids through the 1/4" gaps in the pickets, the dogs do know that something
> is there, and are reacting in a manner that worries me considerably.
>
>
> ster...@home.com
You're doing exactly the right thing. I LOVE dogs, but am cautious with
*any* dog when my 2 and a half year old is conserned. Even if I personally
know the dog. Animals can be very tempermental, just like people. If a
child pulls a dog's tail, you never know how the dog will react. That's why
it is the responsibility of the parent for the safety of their child to
always supervise children with any animal.
-Denise
Jason & Denise
We're all sick of you. You obvously have no idea when it comes to
animals or children, so our input is not necessary in this thread.
Elaine Gallant
> while i still stand by a lot of the other things I said, if the dogs are
> doing this while the kids are being quiet
These are just toddlers of 2 and 4. They have NO obligation of being quiet
and holding still in their own yard.
you should talk to the owners
> soon just to be sure. hindsight is 20/20.
>
> my original reading (or misreading) of the original message did not lead
> me to believe the kids are just sitting there quietly but more or less
> doing the typical "kids screaming chasing each other" etc.
Ya, children screaming and running around DOES illicit a prey response in
dogs.
Elaine Gallant
> Pssst! They got a pack of two. Jumping fences is EZ to break. j;~}
How big a pack of Rotts would it take to eat a two year old?
Elaine Gallant
"Jason & Denise" <jaso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9e10et$17l6$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
> Elaine,
> We're all sick of you.
You lack empathy for the family and the children in question. For that
matter, you lack empathy for the dogs. If those dogs go after the kids,
they're dead meat.
>You obvously have no idea when it comes to
> animals or children, so our input is not necessary in this thread.
Tell the man these dogs couldn't possibly be a danger to his babies. Then
stand by your word, and pay for any damages if something bad happens here.
Bring the children back to life if the dogs take them out.
Elaine Gallant
mentality".
Pack mentality is a behavior any group of dogs will engage in when in the
company of other dogs.
Even small, gentle, and otherwise non-aggressive dogs can become murderously
aggressive toward humans when operating in a pack.
A "pack" just means more than one dog. Yes, only two dogs constitute a pack.
Many of the cases of lethal attacks on humans recorded occur when loose dogs
form a pack.
We had a case in San Diego of a group of domestic, neighborhood dogs who
would form a pack during the day when the owners of some of the dogs were at
work.
A pack of seven attacked and killed a 70yr. old hiker they came across.
Even the most recent case of the Presa Canario who killed the woman in San
Francisco was actually a member of a two dog pack. Both dogs were biting the
woman. The male got hold of her throat for the fatal bite.
In the other case to which I referred, either two or three Rottwielers got
loose from their yard. They preyed on two little black boys, brothers, who
were waiting for the school bus. They snagged one, killed him and ATE him. I
am not kidding.
"Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
news:dgHM6.88824$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> This is a tricky situation indeed. As Jerry mentions, introducing the dogs
> and the children seems a little dangerous to me. I don't yet entirely
trust
> the neighbor's ability to control their dogs. I'm hoping to learn more
when
> I go talk to them.
>
> But Jerry, I must respectfully disagree with the end of your post. While
the
> dogs do have the right to play in their own yard, that right ends when
their
> behavior creates 1) a threatening environment preventing my children from
> enjoying our yard and 2) a condition in which I become concerned for my
> children's safety.
>
> Steve
> ster...@home.com
>
>
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:0KGM6.228947$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Hello jeffrey,
> >
> > "Jeffrey Cheek" <newsg...@edeldog.com> wrote in message
> > news:DdGM6.9978$Az.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > A "higher" fence is futile.
> >
> > And unnecessary. All he's got to do is train the dogs not to bark or
> > challenge the fence. EZ work, if you know HOWE.
> >
> > > These dogs are more likely to batter the slats
> > > of the fence and break through.
> >
> > Right. But not if we take a few miutes and train the dogs.
> >
> > > An electronic fence done properly will stop
> > > them encroaching, but the assertive barking will continue.
> >
> > That barking is what's making the dog's more out of control. The
> > barking needs to be addressed so the dogs can calm down. Shocking
> > the dogs for approaching the fence might make the dogs hate and want
> > to try to kill the kids if they blame the kids for getting shocked
> > when they approach the fence...
> >
> > That's what happened to the little dog in "interested in hearing"
> > and that's what caused lia's dog Cubbe to snap at a child a couple
> > weeks ago in the thread "1 step forward." Remember? One dead and one
> > to go. One more close call with Cubbe, and lia will kill her.
> >
> > > I agree that you should open communications with the neighbors.
> >
> > And buy one of your medical grade shock devices?
> >
> > > Let them know your concerns.
> >
> > Maybe split the cost of your shock fence?
> >
> > > Do this: Have them introduce their dogs to you and your children
> > at
> > > [the back door] of their home.
> >
> > Why? The neighbor isn't bright enough to stop his dogs from barking
> > at them and their kids, why should they trust them to handle their
> > dogs properly to introduce them to their little munchkins? I
> > wouldn't go meet two rotties who've been barking at me through the
> > fence being handled by someone with probably little or no ability to
> > control their dogs in the first place. Sounds dangerous to me.
> >
> > > If that goes well,
> >
> > And if it don't, you go get a new kid?
> >
> > > formally invite all of them over to your back door, on leash of
> > > course. Hopefully, for the dogs' sake, this will be enough.
> >
> > Might work. Might not. But that's probably not going to solve the
> > problem for long, because of the nature of barrier frustration
> > syndrome. That's something they didn't teach you about in shock
> > fence sales school. koehler would have you use a BB gun or a "good
> > slingshot."
> >
> > > On the other hand, also discuss with the neighbor that if the
> > > [obnoxious and threatening] behavior persists, something MUST be
> > > done to insure your children's well-being and comfort playing [in
> > > their own back yard for Christ's sake].
> >
> > And they'll tell him to go $#!T in his hat. His dog's got as much
> > right to bark and enjoy his backyard as their kids have the right to
> > play in their back yard. If they don't like the noise, they can go
> > complain to town hall. Most towns won't do anything about a barking
> > dog complaint even after 11 pm or before 7 a.m. So, threats won't
> > help and may make the problem wrorse. Ferchrissakes.
> >
> > > If the neighbor is an asshole and refuses to discuss the issue, do
> > > what most fathers would do. ;-)
> >
> > Get your dirty @$$ chewed to bits threatening the neighbor with two
> > aggressive rotties??? BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> >
> > BRILLIANT. Now we see why koehler trainers can't train a dog without
> > hurting them... Bye! j;~}
> >
> >
>
>
Lisa
As a mother of a 3 yr old, I've agreed with most of what you've said in this
thread. I would be very concerned if our next door neighbor had two large
dogs who may be aggressive at the fence with my daughter in the yard. (Note
I said "may." The only way of finding out for certain if the dogs are
aggressive is to have the children meet them up close, which is taking an
unacceptable risk.)
I agree that something must be done to ensure that the dogs can't get into
the children's yard... in addition to talking to the neighbor to see if
something can be done on their end too. As far as the OP saying he doesn't
believe it's his financial responsibility to do anything about the fence
because it is the neighbor's dogs... well, it is his kids. If I were in
this situation, I'd pay the price for a more effective barrier. Talking to
the neighbor too is a good idea. But first things first... and that's the
safety of the kids.
-Lisa
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:%HTM6.27707$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Leah
>I fail to see the point
'Nuff said.
Learn How to Can Spam
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http://www.spamfree.org/
WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH - Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/
Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)
Leah
>It's no different from any other method of dog aggitation. It's like
>dangling a cat over their heads for months. You KNOW what dogs like that do
>when they catch up to the cat. It's all over.
Yup. When my dogs have had the opportunity to chase cats (even though they'd
been held back from doing so for months or years before the opportunity is
presented), it IS all over when they catch up to the cat. It stops running,
they stop chasing. Game over. Nobody is hurt.
Leah
>Ya, children screaming and running around DOES illicit a prey response in
>dogs.
Buck will go out of his way to avoid running, screaming children. Madigan will
try to play with them.
However, they do illicit a prey response in ME. :}
Jason & Denise
"You're doing exactly the right thing. I LOVE dogs, but am cautious with
*any* dog when my 2 and a half year old is conserned. Even if I personally
know the dog. Animals can be very tempermental, just like people. If a
child pulls a dog's tail, you never know how the dog will react. That's why
it is the responsibility of the parent for the safety of their child to
always supervise children with any animal."
Elaine Gallant <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:%HTM6.27707$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Elaine Gallant
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20010517143955...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >Ya, children screaming and running around DOES illicit a prey response in
> >dogs.
>
> Buck will go out of his way to avoid running, screaming children.
Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that fence,
huh?
It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
position.
Elaine Gallant
> Did you read my other post?? I quote:
>
> "You're doing exactly the right thing. I LOVE dogs, but am cautious with
> *any* dog when my 2 and a half year old is conserned. Even if I
personally
> know the dog. Animals can be very tempermental, just like people. If a
> child pulls a dog's tail,
This thread is NOT about children who are pulling a dog's tail, or dogs
being temperamental. This situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Even
the FBI has a profile defining what makes a crime possible:
Availability
Motivation
Access
The dogs are aware the children are available. They have motivation to harm
them. Right now, their access to them is limitted. The fence is the only
thing preventing them from taking those kids out right now.
Get Jerry to give you the low down on Barrier Aggression. (He won't. He is
worried about how dangerous this situation is...for the DOGS)
.
> you never know how the dog will react.
In fact, it's possible to predict with good accuracy exactly how dogs will
behave. These are well aggitated dogs, trained to respond to babymeat. They
have nothing more exciting in their lives than harassing those kids.
Dogs, like many wild animals, frequently respond to children's high pitched
voices and quick movements as if they were animals of prey. Tales of Rotts
getting out of fenced yards to attack small children are so frequent as to
be cliche by this time.
> That's why
> it is the responsibility of the parent for the safety of their child to
> always supervise children with any animal."
*smirk* that's funny. Once the dogs make their move, they'll hit those kids
so fast the parents won't even know what happened. Those babies are just
tender little tags of meat. The parents will start screaming, which will
incite the dogs further to protect their kill.
They'll have to call animal control to shoot the dogs to retrieve whatever
is left of the tots.
Oh...we all Do understand that we're talking about fatalities here. Not dog
bite. The children are not in danger of being bitten. They're in danger of
being EATEN. Literally.
Elaine Gallant
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >It's no different from any other method of dog aggitation. It's like
> >dangling a cat over their heads for months. You KNOW what dogs like that
do
> >when they catch up to the cat. It's all over.
>
> Yup. When my dogs
Wow, you're like a vampire. Drive a stake into your heart, but you just
don't stay down. AGAIN, don't the babies' parents WISH we were talking
about YOUR dog....
Leah
>The only way of finding out for certain if the dogs are
>aggressive is to have the children meet them up close, which is taking an
>unacceptable risk.)
Why? If both the children and the dogs are kept under control of the
parents/owners?
For all you know at this point, these dogs could already be socialized to
children and making a ruckus because they can't get to them to play.
Leah
>Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that fence,
>huh?
>It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
>position.
Elaine, the point is YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. You're making an assumption about a
situation you know nothing about. Here's what we know: The dogs bark when the
children are in the yard. The dogs are rottweilers. That is NOT enough
information to decide that these dogs are any more aggressive than mine.
Unless you're under the mistaken impression that all rottweilers are
child-killers.
Lisa
> >"Lisa" <lbe...@katz.pitt.edu> wrote:
> >The only way of finding out for certain if the dogs are
> >aggressive is to have the children meet them up close, which is taking an
> >unacceptable risk.)
>
> Why? If both the children and the dogs are kept under control of the
> parents/owners?
>
> For all you know at this point, these dogs could already be socialized to
> children and making a ruckus because they can't get to them to play.
Leah,
This is what I would do in this situation. I am a dog owner as well as a
parent... my child certainly takes precedence over everything else in my
life, including my own health and welfare if necessary. She is more
important than money, possessions, or my own life. I would *never* put my
child in *any* situation in which there was even a SMALL chance that she
could be harmed. Ever.
If my next door neighbors' dogs were exhibiting behavior that I considered
worrisome, I would not test to see if they weren't aggressive by putting my
3 yr old girl up close and personal to them. I'm not saying that the dogs
are socialized to children or not... it's enough for me, as a parent, to
have concerns of this type. Do I hate the dogs? No. Do I sneak out at
night and poison them secretly? Certainly not... but I do take normal
precautions to ensure that my daughter doesn't get into a situation like
this in the first place. That is my responsibility as a parent.
The owners of the dogs have their own responsibilities, and how do I know
that they uphold them? Who knows what type of training they have done with
the dogs? Who knows if, for instance, I brought my child to see the dogs,
they would care enough to ensure that my daughter is safe? Dogs move very
fast. Could I snatch her away in time if things went badly? I don't know.
So... I just wouldn't let the situation arise in the first place.
-Lisa
J1Boss
>This is what I would do in this situation. I am a dog owner as well as a
>parent... my child certainly takes precedence over everything else in my
>life, including my own health and welfare if necessary. She is more
>important than money, possessions, or my own life. I would *never* put my
>child in *any* situation in which there was even a SMALL chance that she
>could be harmed. Ever.
Sorry to break this to you Lisa, but you do just that. every day. Over and
over and over. just like the rest of us. It's called living life.
That said, my dogs (well, mostly just Lucy) barks at my neighbors every time
she sees them. Furiously. Sounds very mean. 4' chain link fence she can get
under or over in a flash. There are 3 ways to make her stop: bring her in;
tell her enough - quiet; the neighbor does as Lucy's asking and comes over and
pets her!
Nobody here (and I suspect Steve as well) knows what these dogs are thinking.
He hasn't even talked to his neighbors yet! Hasn't met the dogs, hasn't said
how much they're out, nothing. Elaine makes her usual absurd assumptions, and
everyone acts like they are child killers. They MAY be, but nobody actually
knows. Steve - meet you neighbor - without your children - ok?
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
"Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
Lisa
news:20010517171129...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
> Lisa writes:
>
> >This is what I would do in this situation. I am a dog owner as well as a
> >parent... my child certainly takes precedence over everything else in my
> >life, including my own health and welfare if necessary. She is more
> >important than money, possessions, or my own life. I would *never* put
my
> >child in *any* situation in which there was even a SMALL chance that she
> >could be harmed. Ever.
>
> Sorry to break this to you Lisa, but you do just that. every day. Over
and
> over and over. just like the rest of us. It's called living life.
Janet, please... this is not what I meant and you know it very well.
Do I hold my daughter's hand in the parking lot, even though she will
probably stay by my side? Yes, because why take the risk?
Do I lock the doors when I have her in the car? Yes, there is an off chance
that some loon may decide to try and get in with us when I'm at a stoplight.
Not much of one, but why take the risk?
These are ordinary precautions.
An ordinary precaution is, if *I* feel that someone's dogs may pose a threat
to my daughter, I keep her away from them. There are no bad feelings
involved... only a simple precaution. The dogs may be all right, but
again... why take the chance that they're not?
This is the last post I'm going to give on this subject. I agree with most
of what Elaine posted. I would do what I had to do in order to ensure my
daughter's safety if I felt there might be a risk. I wouldn't worry about
expense of a fence if I felt it was necessary... I would also talk to the
neighbor in the best way I knew how. The bottom line is, I would not allow
contact between my 3 yr old daughter (who is a little over 3 ft tall and
about 33 lbs.) and two large dogs (whatever their breed) I don't know who
may be aggressive.
We actually had a similar situation next door... two large dogs. The fence
between our yards is three feet high, and they used to jump over it to come
and play with my Dal. One was a Rottweiler, the other was Pit Bull/Rottie
mix. They were the biggest, slobberiest babies you'd ever met. Their owner
trained them not to jump over the fence. I was not concerned about their
behavior with my daughter... for the most part, they ignored her. I don't
assume that all Rotties or Pit Bulls are child eaters. But if the next door
had a dog whose behavior worried me when my daughter was outside in our
yard, my husband and I would do something about it... not just talk.
-Lisa
Elaine Gallant
Please tell these children's father exactly what part of my statements are
"absurd"? Are you saying Rottweilers NEVER attack small chilren? Children
are NEVER killed by dogs?
Under which circumstance did YOU think people were killed by dogs? These
particular dogs fulfill two of three criteria necessary for an attack to
take place. All that remains is the actual attack iteself. Every other
factor is in place. The dogs know where the kids are, are motivated to harm
them, but are only being held back by a fence.
, and
> everyone acts like they are child killers.
Cha. A two year old would just be a tender little tag of flesh to a full
grown Rott.
> They MAY be, but nobody actually
> knows.
They're giving REAL clear signals they are viewing those kids as prey.
Karen J. Cravens
>Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that
>fence, huh?
>It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
>position.
Hmm. I think Elaine doesn't like Rottweilers. Or maybe she's telepathic.
I have a neighbor whose Rotties behaves in exactly the manner the original
poster describes, except they're behind a *three* foot chainlink fence.
The younger one leaps up onto it and does a near-backflip off it, sounding
off the whole time, whenever anyone comes near the backyard. And this is
often, because we have an easement between the yards that kids ride bikes
and run up and down. Could they go over that fence? In a New York minute.
Would they? Heck no, they love kids, and not for breakfast, either.
The point is, *you* don't know these dogs are dangerous. Neither does the
original poster. He needs to find out. Contrary to what you may think,
that's actually possible. Despite your irrational terror of them, these
dogs aren't superhuman. It *is* possible to get their reaction without
letting them attack.
If they're dangerous, then their owner needs to do something about it. If
they're not, he needs to do something different, like give the dogs some
attention. Like I said, my dogs go just as bonkers over kids (and adults,
come to that), but the difference is, the neighbors will come up and pet
them, which will satisfy the frustration, and if they're yelling at a
stranger who isn't likely to respond, I'll get them inside where the source
of frustration is removed. Pretty simple.
--
Karen J. Cravens
J1Boss
>Please tell these children's father exactly what part of my statements are
>"absurd"? Are you saying Rottweilers NEVER attack small chilren? Children
>are NEVER killed by dogs?
Nope, not even a little. Dogs hurt and kill children way too often.
>Under which circumstance did YOU think people were killed by dogs? These
>particular dogs fulfill two of three criteria necessary for an attack to
>take place.
What criteria would those be? This man (Steve) has admitted to not being a dog
person. Nobody here KNOWS what these dogs are actually doing or not doing.
MAY they be a very big threat? Yup. MAY the not be? Yup. We DON'T KNOW.
Steve doesn't know because he hasn't bothered to meet his neighbors. He just
knows that big noisy dogs are on the other side of his fence from his children.
He's concerned about his children's safety, which is perfectly reasonable.
Hysteris is not reasonable though.
> All that remains is the actual attack iteself. Every other
>factor is in place.
What factors?
>The dogs know where the kids are, are motivated to harm
>them, but are only being held back by a fence.
How have you decided that they are motivated to harm these children? You DON'T
KNOW THAT! That is your absurd assumption.
> Cha. A two year old would just be a tender little tag of flesh to a full
>grown Rott.
IF that dog had intent on harming that child. But you DON'T KNOW THAT IT/THEY
WANTS TO!
>They're giving REAL clear signals they are viewing those kids as prey.
How clear can a non-dog persons read and post be? You haven't seen these dogs,
neither have I - we DON'T KNOW.
I'm not a huge Rotti fan. I've heard WAY too many cases involving Rotties this
year, who've done some significant damage to children and have killed other
dogs. Very poor breeding and keeping results in these horrible situations.
Still, the dogs in the OP are an unknown. You don't know what they are like,
nor do I. Nor does the OP - he hasn't bothered to meet the neighbors to even
ask. It would be the first thing on my list (and of course, I wouldn't leave
toddlers out unattended anyway).
J1Boss
>These
>particular dogs fulfill two of three criteria necessary for an attack to
>take place. All that remains is the actual attack iteself. Every other
>factor is in place. The dogs know where the kids are, are motivated to harm
>them, but are only being held back by a fence.
Here is the post:
[Our new neighbors have two grown rottweilers. Their backyard is enclosed
with a 6' wood picket fence. When our children (age 2 and 4 1/2) are outside
playing in our yard, the dogs become
"quite agitated and begin barking"
The
slats in the fence are only 1/4" apart, but apparently the dogs sense the
children. We are concerned that the dogs might jump the fence. Is it
possible for a rottweiler to jump a 6' fence? Thanks very much.
he also said this:
"But when our kids are outside, the dogs bark quite wildly
and hang very close to the fence."]
So what criteria are they fulfilling? Standing? Barking? I din't know those
things meant a dog was about to kill a child. There is no mention of jumping
at the fence, growling, digging, or any attempt to actually "get" to the
children. Geez - my dogs run to my back fence and put their paws up on the
fence, and noses under it, while "barking wildly". The family's recently
acquired dobe does the same on the other side. It's a damaged 4' chain link
fence. Would you assume that these dogs, all weighing in the vicinity of
60-65# are about to kill the 5 and 7 year old who live there? or the adjacent
homes 1, 3, 5 and 7 year old grandchildren? How about the boxers a few doors
away who wear IF collars AND bark collars. We can't hear their agitation
anymore, but we can see it. They don't even have a real fence - are they going
to kill the neighborhood chidlren too? By your criteria, they're all about to
rip throats out.
Elaine Gallant
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90A4A03F...@192.168.0.3...
> "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> <E9VM6.27812$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
> >Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that
> >fence, huh?
> >It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
> >position.
>
> Hmm. I think Elaine doesn't like Rottweilers.
I like Rotts ok.
Jerry Howe
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20010517143746...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Jerry Howe
>
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhPM6.235126$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Pssst! They got a pack of two. Jumping fences is EZ to break.
> > j;~}
> How big a pack of Rotts would it take to eat a two year old?
I dunno. I suppose it depends on HOWE many he can fit in his yard. I
can train them all not to challenge the fence... j;~}
Jerry Howe
story's.
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:YvTM6.27688$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4TQM6.235730$fs3.39...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> > It's not a matter of outright lying. It's her fears running the
> > show, not her intellect...
>
> You know the story of the rotts who escaped the yard, killing the
little
> boy. Please tell that story. Analyze why the dogs killed the boy.
You KNOW
> why they did it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Danae
> Tell the man these dogs couldn't possibly be a danger to his babies. Then
> stand by your word, and pay for any damages if something bad happens here.
> Bring the children back to life if the dogs take them out.
Are you opposed to the original poster meeting with the neighbour sans
children? At least that way the OP will have a much better understanding if
these dogs are truely a threat and out of control or if they were barking
out of excitement and wanting to play (my dog does this, but since he looks
like a 40lbs teddy bear he doesn't seem very threatening... plus everyone in
the neighbourhood knows he's harmless). Either way, at least the OP will
not have to guess whether or not these dogs are a threat and can then take
action (ie. building a higher fence).
-- April
Elaine Gallant
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that
fence,
> >huh?
> >It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
> >position.
>
> Elaine, the point is YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.
In fact, all the blocks are all in place. The dogs are aware of the
children and are focussed on them. the only thing left to determine is if
the dogs would kill the children if they got a clean shot at them.
At this point, the only way to determine if they're dangerous is to dangle
the child above it's head, and see it it eats it.
My impression is it would happily take the bait.
> You're making an assumption about a
> situation you know nothing about.
Now, that's just the pack mentality speaking. You get a roomful of dog crazy
people together, and they are only too happy to focus on the single
remaining "test" of the children's safety.
It's ridiculous to put small children in such a situation.
>Here's what we know: The dogs bark when the
> children are in the yard. The dogs are rottweilers.
We also know that child aggressive dogs can and frequently DO go after
children if they escape their yards.
spamh8r
<3tTM6.27679$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> You really don't know anything about training dogs.
>
you really dont know anything about rottweilers, except what you've
heard on the news a few times. i work with someone like you... has no
real world experiences to draw from, only "experiences" of others
whether in real life or on tv.
spamh8r
<RuTM6.27686$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> "spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:BZNM6.2436$G5.5...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> > In article <sOIM6.4133$oi1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > > Sort of. The idea of a threat is unproven. The only real complaint
> > > > is some noise during daylight hours.
> > >
> > > ....ya.... but when that "noise" is growling, howling, and jaw smacking
> > > around your baby, it gets worrysome...
> >
> > he never said growling... or howling or even "jaw smacking" unless you
> > mean "barking". here's the quote from his origal post:
>
> Subsitute "cat" for "baby". Then make the same statement.
I used neither the word "cat" nor "baby".
spamh8r
"Jason & Denise" <jaso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Elaine,
> We're all sick of you. You obvously have no idea when it comes to
> animals or children, so our input is not necessary in this thread.
>
>
she's wack.
Elaine Gallant
Substitute the word "cat" for "baby" and see how your message reads.
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010517181333...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
spamh8r
<UETM6.27702$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> "spamh8r" <spa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:MMNM6.2430$G5.5...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> > while i still stand by a lot of the other things I said, if the dogs are
> > doing this while the kids are being quiet
>
> These are just toddlers of 2 and 4. They have NO obligation of being quiet
> and holding still in their own yard.
I must have missed the part where I said they were obligated. My bad.
> you should talk to the owners
> > soon just to be sure. hindsight is 20/20.
> >
> > my original reading (or misreading) of the original message did not lead
> > me to believe the kids are just sitting there quietly but more or less
> > doing the typical "kids screaming chasing each other" etc.
>
> Ya, children screaming and running around DOES illicit a prey response in
> dogs.
glad you recognize that. maybe there's hope for you after all (nah)
spamh8r
> "Jason & Denise" <jaso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9e10et$17l6$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
> > Elaine,
> > We're all sick of you.
>
> matter, you lack empathy for the dogs. If those dogs go after the kids,
> they're dead meat.
you lack basic comprehension. NOWHERE in ANY of his posts did the
original poster mention the dogs were aggressive. *you* started the
whole notion...
> >You obvously have no idea when it comes to
> > animals or children, so our input is not necessary in this thread.
>
> Tell the man these dogs couldn't possibly be a danger to his babies. Then
> stand by your word, and pay for any damages if something bad happens here.
> Bring the children back to life if the dogs take them out.
the word "if" shows that even you have doubts. there is no evidence the
dogs are aggressive. all dogs, except basenjis, bark, elaine.
spamh8r
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >I fail to see the point
>
> 'Nuff said.
I thought that *I* was missing the point, but since she's admitting it,
I feel so much better. Did anyone else hear the *PLONK* out in the
distance?
spamh8r
dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote:
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >It's no different from any other method of dog aggitation. It's like
> >dangling a cat over their heads for months. You KNOW what dogs like that do
> >when they catch up to the cat. It's all over.
>
> Yup. When my dogs have had the opportunity to chase cats (even though they'd
> been held back from doing so for months or years before the opportunity is
> presented), it IS all over when they catch up to the cat. It stops running,
> they stop chasing. Game over. Nobody is hurt.
my year-old female rottie loves our 2 cats. they play for hours chasing
*each other* all around the house. they have quite a good game going.
and honestly, the cats actually do more of the chasing... it's very
funny. she's 75 lbs right now versus their 10-14 lbs and she runs for
cover when one especially comes.... her butt drags the ground as she
runs from the flailing claws! :-)
spamh8r
<E9VM6.27812$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> "Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> news:20010517143955...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
> > >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > >Ya, children screaming and running around DOES illicit a prey response in
> > >dogs.
> >
> > Buck will go out of his way to avoid running, screaming children.
>
> Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that fence,
> huh?
> It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
> position.
>
>
>
>
oh jeez, give me a break.
J1Boss
>Substitute the word "cat" for "baby" and see how your message reads.
That wouldn't make sense, since these aren't babies and aren't cats. You have
no idea what you're talking about.
spamh8r
<EpVM6.27832$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> This thread is NOT about children who are pulling a dog's tail, or dogs
> being temperamental. This situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Even
> the FBI has a profile defining what makes a crime possible:
>
> Availability
> Motivation
> Access
>
> The dogs are aware the children are available. They have motivation to harm
> them. Right now, their access to them is limitted. The fence is the only
> thing preventing them from taking those kids out right now.
they're aware the kids exist, yes. they're aware that the sky exists
too. you're assuming there's motivation to harm them... a very big
ASSumption.
> In fact, it's possible to predict with good accuracy exactly how dogs will
> behave. These are well aggitated dogs, trained to respond to babymeat. They
> have nothing more exciting in their lives than harassing those kids.
anyone seen my waders? now you're saying the owners trained them to eat
children? you take your prozac this morning?
> Dogs, like many wild animals, frequently respond to children's high pitched
> voices and quick movements as if they were animals of prey. Tales of Rotts
> getting out of fenced yards to attack small children are so frequent as to
> be cliche by this time.
how many of such attacks occured? how many rottweilers are *registered*
in the US?
> Oh...we all Do understand that we're talking about fatalities here. Not dog
> bite. The children are not in danger of being bitten. They're in danger of
> being EATEN. Literally.
we're talking about dogs barking. the poodle across the street is
barking... poor "Buddy". maybe i'll go shoot him so he doesnt come eat
my cats.
spamh8r
dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote:
> >"Elaine Gallant" elaine....@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >Ya, what an INCREDIBLE shame it's not BUCK on the other side of that fence,
> >huh?
> >It happens to be a pair of heat seeking chain saws, stuck in the ON
> >position.
>
> Elaine, the point is YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. You're making an assumption about
> a
> situation you know nothing about. Here's what we know: The dogs bark when
> the
> children are in the yard. The dogs are rottweilers. That is NOT enough
> information to decide that these dogs are any more aggressive than mine.
>
> Unless you're under the mistaken impression that all rottweilers are
> child-killers.
she's under a LOT of mistaken impressions including this one... she's
ASSuming way too much.
spamh8r
In article <Xns90A4A03F...@192.168.0.3>,
spamh8r
> "Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
>
> I like Rotts ok.
>
>
>
as long as they don't bark that is....
Evelyn Ruut
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:niTM6.27636$t12.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Evelyn Ruut" <mama...@ulster.net> wrote in message
> news:%bOM6.8922$l5.69...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
> >
> > "Steve Riley" <ster...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:JzHM6.88850$2U.41...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > > Jerry, please be realistic and reread the entire thread. Nowhere have
I
> > said
> > > my children are "raising heel." If my children were antagonizing the
> dogs,
> > I
> > > would immediately take care of the situation. But such isn't the case:
> my
> > > children are quiet and minding their own business. The dogs are
creating
> a
> > > threatening situation, scaring my children and worring me and my wife
> with
> > > their aggressive behavior. They most certainly do *not* have this
right.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > > ster...@home.com
> >
> >
> > Dear Steve,
> >
> > Do you know your neighbors personally? Have you or your children ever
> met
> > these dogs in person?
>
> I fail to see the point of dangling a two year old in front of a child
> aggressive Rottweiler.
Dear Elaine,
The dogs may not be "child aggressive" they might just be barking because
there is noise/activity in the next yard. My dogs will carry on under the
same circumstances, looking for all the world very fierce, but will behave
just fine if "introduced." I still think the man should talk to the dogs
owner about it.
Regards,
Evelyn