ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL: 7-yr-old getting VERY aggressive
Mark Samwick
bit of brief background.
My friend has had her male English Springer for 7-/1/2 years, since it
was a pup. "Wills" is fixed. About 4 years ago, they both came to
live at my house, where I had an old 14 year-old male mixed breed and
an old female cat. Everyone got along fine, or as fine as dogs and
cats do. My dog and cat both passed away about a year later.
Shortly after that, a year-old, male, injured terrier (looks like a
pure-breed Dandie Dinmont) entered our lives. We paid the vet to tend
to all his medical problems, were unsuccessful in finding the owner
and "Simon" joined our family (we don't know what his original name
was, as there was no collar on him when found).
During the first year, Simon was pretty meek and the larger Wills
ruled the roost. However as time went on, Simon learned to sometimes
take a stand and even bare his teeth and growl at Wills. They still
play a lot together, but there are now lots of territorial games, as
they each vie to get the most attention from the two humans in the
house. Wills seems to be king of the fenced-in backyard. Simon now
sleeps with us at night and growls enough to keep Wills out of the
bedroom. They each play the floorplan of the house as if it were a
chessboard, laying down at narrow passageways and daring the other to
pass. I guess this is all normal fun play for entities without
opposable thumbs and access to a Sega PlayStation. :-)
Okay, here is our problem. Wills has always been a gentle dog, who
barked at strangers and REALLY barked and pulled (on his lead) at
other dogs. This past January, while walking the dogs, my friend and
I stopped to talk with a neighbor and Wills jumped on her and nipped
her hand, drawing blood. We were shocked by this, but thought that
maybe Wills was confused because the neighbor's clothes might have had
the scent of her own dog.
This past April, Wills started growling and snapping at me. He will
come over and nudge my hand, tail awaggin', indicating that he wants
to be petted. I will pet him for a few moments, talk to him in a
pleasant tone, and he will then start the deep growl, and if I don't
get my hand away fast, he will snap his head around as if he might be
trying to bite me. On a couple of occasions, he has bypassed the
growl and gone right to the test of my reflexes. So far, I still
count five digits on my right hand.
The most fascinating thing about this is that right after I bring my
hand back down from its quickly-found safe haven, Wills is usually
back nudging me for more attention, or lifting his left paw up (we
call it his "sympathy paw") looking for more attention. It has gotten
to the point where I don't want to touch him any more. This does not
happen with my friend, who, as I said, has raised him from a pup,
although he did growl at her once.
Then today, while my friend was walking both dogs alone this past
evening, she stopped to talk with another neighbor, and Wills suddenly
jumped up and bit the neighbor on her thigh. They didn't think it was
a full bite, but later on, the neighbor ended up going to the hospital
to check it out. The hospital was required to report the incident to
animal control, which paid us a visit at 11:30 pm to check out the dog
and the rabies certificate! The dog is now quaranteened in the house
for 10 days. We can only take Wills out on a lead briefly in our
backyard to handle nature's business.
Can anybody lend us some advice on what is happening here? I'm a
computer nerd by trade and I live on logic. So I'm having a tough
time understanding Wills' behavior toward me. He curls up at my feet,
loves to follow me around, but then attacks when he gets the attention
he is seeking. No, this is NOT a game. When he is in the growl/snap
mode, his bulging brown eyes make it clear that he is deadly serious.
And then they melt back into the "Come on dad, tickle me please" look.
And, of course, the liability potential of having a dog that attacks
neighbors, or others that might enter my house, scares the willies out
of me! What is happening here? Can this be what I have heard
referred to as "canine rage syndrome?" And if so, is there a cure for
this? One last thing I will add here is the fact that we used to see
Wills having what appeared to be momentary seizures, where he would
stare forward and his bottom lip would quiver slightly. It was akin
to a mild epileptic seizure that would just last for a few seconds.
When it was over, he would just go back to what he was doing. But I
have not seen that seizure activity now in almost a year, and I don't
know if it relates to the problem that we are having now.
My friend and I love this English Springer and want to see him well.
We will do whatever it takes, but something has to be done before this
mental disorder (?) causes harm to us, our neighbors and even Simon.
I'm looking for ideas and explanations, especially from other Springer
Spaniel owners. Thanks!
--- Mark in NC
Pictures of Wills and Simon can be found at:
http://www.walshnet.com/wills.jpg
http://www.walshnet.com/simon.jpg
Diana McCarty
starts to be aggressive I recommend and Immediate test of the thyroid.
Yes I know it sounds silly but if it registers anywhere other than where
it should, it can cause the kind of aggression that you describe. Given
the age of the dog that's the first place I'd look.
Now if the dog does need medication for this, you MAY also have to
desensitize the animal to these learned behavior. Like give him a treat
when he behaves on lead. watch him carefully and at the first sign call
him to you to distract and give him a reward.
Hope this helps. If it is not this - you could consult an animal
behaviorist - usually the local humane society can help direct you.
Elaine Gallant
It's very common for Springers to exhibit this sort of behavior. The
original "rage" syndrome was actually called "Springer Rage".
Another them is ideopathic aggression. That means the dog has episodes of
aggression toward human and no one knows exactly why they do that.
Sorry, no. It's not fixable. Perhaps it's something like epilepsy. Whatever
it is, it's highly heritable. They can trace Springer Rage to one primary
dog.
"Mark Samwick" <ma...@walshnet.com> wrote in message
news:vatuOXcMgSO2We...@4ax.com...
Elaine Gallant
"Elaine Gallant" <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:zkEb5.3878$tI4.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> It's very common for Springers to exhibit this sort of behavior. The
> original "rage" syndrome was actually called "Springer Rage".
>
> Another them is ideopathic aggression. That means the dog has episodes of
whooops, I meant another NAME for this syndrome.
The Carrolls
>ruled the roost. However as time went on, Simon learned to sometimes
>take a stand and even bare his teeth and growl at Wills. They still
>play a lot together, but there are now lots of territorial games, as
>they each vie to get the most attention from the two humans in the
>house. Wills seems to be king of the fenced-in backyard. Simon now
>sleeps with us at night and growls enough to keep Wills out of the
>bedroom. They each play the floorplan of the house as if it were a
>chessboard, laying down at narrow passageways and daring the other to
>pass. I guess this is all normal fun play for entities without
>opposable thumbs and access to a Sega PlayStation. :-)
Have you scolded them for such displays? You should not be tolerating any
kind of aggression towards eachother at all. One is dominant (I'd let the
Springer be such, as he's the larger dog anyways and apparantly has the
issues--putting him below the other dog will cause some very severe fights
that may send both to the emergency vet), that one gets fed and gets petted
first.
>
>Okay, here is our problem. Wills has always been a gentle dog, who
>barked at strangers and REALLY barked and pulled (on his lead) at
>other dogs. This past January, while walking the dogs, my friend and
>I stopped to talk with a neighbor and Wills jumped on her and nipped
>her hand, drawing blood. We were shocked by this, but thought that
>maybe Wills was confused because the neighbor's clothes might have had
>the scent of her own dog.
What did you do? Did you scold him and correct him for it? Any signs of
aggression--growling at people, showing teeth, snapping, and biting--must be
corrected STRONGLY at the incident they occur, regardless of what you're
doing.
>
>This past April, Wills started growling and snapping at me. He will
>come over and nudge my hand, tail awaggin', indicating that he wants
>to be petted. I will pet him for a few moments, talk to him in a
>pleasant tone, and he will then start the deep growl, and if I don't
>get my hand away fast, he will snap his head around as if he might be
>trying to bite me. On a couple of occasions, he has bypassed the
>growl and gone right to the test of my reflexes. So far, I still
>count five digits on my right hand.
Stop petting him. He's demanding that you give him what he wants, and when
you do that, he gets put in charge. When he bites you, scold him and then
make him do a down-stay. If you're concerned about being bitten, leave a 4'
lead on him around the house, You can catch him and correct him much better
that way. Anything he wants, he has to work for. He wants attention?
FINE. He can do a heeling pattern for you before getting petted. He wants
outside? FINE. He can lie down for a three minute down-stay first. He
wants his dinner? FINE. He can sit first.
>
>The most fascinating thing about this is that right after I bring my
>hand back down from its quickly-found safe haven, Wills is usually
>back nudging me for more attention, or lifting his left paw up (we
>call it his "sympathy paw") looking for more attention. It has gotten
>to the point where I don't want to touch him any more. This does not
>happen with my friend, who, as I said, has raised him from a pup,
>although he did growl at her once.
That paw should never come onto your lap at any point. He should be scolded
for pawing at you, and you should make him lie down on the floor.
>
>Then today, while my friend was walking both dogs alone this past
>evening, she stopped to talk with another neighbor, and Wills suddenly
>jumped up and bit the neighbor on her thigh. They didn't think it was
>a full bite, but later on, the neighbor ended up going to the hospital
>to check it out. The hospital was required to report the incident to
>animal control, which paid us a visit at 11:30 pm to check out the dog
>and the rabies certificate! The dog is now quaranteened in the house
>for 10 days. We can only take Wills out on a lead briefly in our
>backyard to handle nature's business.
Yeps...that's what happens. Be lucky it was a friend and not a stranger.
Your friend will also probably end up paying for the neighbor's bills.
Whenever you're talking to someone, the dog should be sitting politely at
your side.
>
>Can anybody lend us some advice on what is happening here? I'm a
>computer nerd by trade and I live on logic. So I'm having a tough
>time understanding Wills' behavior toward me. He curls up at my feet,
>loves to follow me around, but then attacks when he gets the attention
>he is seeking. No, this is NOT a game. When he is in the growl/snap
>mode, his bulging brown eyes make it clear that he is deadly serious.
>And then they melt back into the "Come on dad, tickle me please" look.
His action is very logical. It makes perfect sense once you understand
doggy hierarchy. He is telling you that you'd better do what he says, or
else. It's your job to put this little brat in his place. All people that
live in your house MUST follow these rules to the letter. I've dealt with
aggressive dogs, and I know how you have to handle them around people. It's
tough, but not impossible. Here is a link that I really love for working
with dominant dogs.
http://www.amrottclub.org/rrrr.htm
>
>And, of course, the liability potential of having a dog that attacks
>neighbors, or others that might enter my house, scares the willies out
>of me! What is happening here? Can this be what I have heard
>referred to as "canine rage syndrome?" And if so, is there a cure for
>this? One last thing I will add here is the fact that we used to see
>Wills having what appeared to be momentary seizures, where he would
>stare forward and his bottom lip would quiver slightly. It was akin
>to a mild epileptic seizure that would just last for a few seconds.
>When it was over, he would just go back to what he was doing. But I
>have not seen that seizure activity now in almost a year, and I don't
>know if it relates to the problem that we are having now.
No, he is not exhibiting "Rage Syndrome." All his actions are very clearly
signs of a dog that has decided he is dominant in the household and is going
to bite people. He's got a specific purpose for his actions, and it really
does need to be stopped (and can be stopped). A dog with rage syndrome is
having seizures of a form--they can not control what they are doing, and can
not remember doing it. A dog with rage syndrome would not repeatedly bite
when being pet--it would strike out at random times throughout it's life.
~Emily
Elaine Gallant
This is like scolding someone for having epilepsy. This dog is a head case.
If by age 7 the dog doesn't now it's NOT OK to turn around and take a big
bite out of the person petting them, they will never learn.
You're also going to get this family sued if you give them the idea their
problem is they failed to "scold" every time the dog takes a piece out of an
unsuspecting person.
"The Carrolls" <car...@dundee.net> wrote in message
news:E%Gb5.1397$Y91.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
The Carrolls
Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
>
>This is like scolding someone for having epilepsy. This dog is a head
case.
The dog doesn't have epilepsy. The dog is dominant. If the dog was a
human, he would be called a "Bully" at school and a "jerk" as an adult.
>
> If by age 7 the dog doesn't now it's NOT OK to turn around and take a big
>bite out of the person petting them, they will never learn.
No, the dog has just been taught that it's OK to do such. It's perfectly
possible to teach the dog that it is no longer in charge of the household.
I've done it with my own dogs.
>
>You're also going to get this family sued if you give them the idea their
>problem is they failed to "scold" every time the dog takes a piece out of
an
>unsuspecting person.
That is the problem. They didn't teach the dog that it wasn't OK to bite
people. They didn't correct it properly for doing such. If they aren't
willing to deal with the problem, then they should put the dog down. If
they want to try, then they are taking their own risks.
~Emily
Elaine Gallant
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
> >
> case.
>
> human, he would be called a "Bully" at school and a "jerk" as an adult.
This animal has already sent someone to the hospital. It's under house
arrest. At some point, it doesn't make any difference WHY it's attacking
people in an unprovoked manner. The're going to be in the same trouble
regardless of the cause.
> >
> > If by age 7 the dog doesn't now it's NOT OK to turn around and take a
big
> >bite out of the person petting them, they will never learn.
>
> No, the dog has just been taught that it's OK to do such. It's perfectly
> possible to teach the dog that it is no longer in charge of the household.
> I've done it with my own dogs.
>
> >
> >You're also going to get this family sued if you give them the idea their
> >problem is they failed to "scold" every time the dog takes a piece out of
> an
> >unsuspecting person.
>
The Carrolls
Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
>
>>
>> Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
>> >
>> case.
>>
>> human, he would be called a "Bully" at school and a "jerk" as an adult.
>
>This animal has already sent someone to the hospital. It's under house
>arrest. At some point, it doesn't make any difference WHY it's attacking
>people in an unprovoked manner. The're going to be in the same trouble
>regardless of the cause.
And your point is...?
~Emily
Elaine Gallant
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
> >
> >>
> >> Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
> >> >
> >> case.
> >>
> >> human, he would be called a "Bully" at school and a "jerk" as an adult.
> >
> >This animal has already sent someone to the hospital. It's under house
> >arrest. At some point, it doesn't make any difference WHY it's attacking
> >people in an unprovoked manner. The're going to be in the same trouble
> >regardless of the cause.
>
> And your point is...?
>
> ~Emily
My point, and I do have one, is that this is much too serious a matter to be
handled by your puppy training methods.
They don't have training issues. They need to figure out what changes they
need to make to see to it this dog doesn't injure anyone else.
What's this guy THINKING about? He can't even pet the dog without fearing
for his health. Talk about locking the barn door after the cow has
escaped....
>
>
Sally Young
First of all you need to get him checked out at your vet in order to
establish whether he has any medical problems such as, rage syndrome or
epilepsy. Otherwise you will be disciplining him for an actions he can't
help.
My problems also started when we got another dog(golden retriever)- my
second dog Jemma soon became "top dog" and therefore Tobie (springer)decided
to try his luck with his human companions!
His behaviour was very similiar to Wills- insisting attention was given and
then biting when we stopped giving the attention.
I think Wills is being dominant towards you. He understand that your friend
is "top Dog".
He may be growling when you start touching him as he may feel that you are
not worthy to touch those parts of his body- you therefore stop -
reinforcing his status.
i believe he bites people who you stop to talk to as he can not possibly
believe that you are more interested in talking to them than continuing HIS
walk.
He is basically trying to control you - you need to reduced his rank very
quickly before someone gets badly hurt.
For example you eat first, you walk through doorways first,no dogs on
furniture etc etc
This rank reduction has worked wonders with my Springer.
Mark Samwick <ma...@walshnet.com> wrote in message
news:vatuOXcMgSO2We...@4ax.com...
Elaine Gallant
"Sally Young" <sally...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:YvKb5.760$Ew5....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> I also own a English Springer Spaniel who is causing me problems.
> First of all you need to get him checked out at your vet in order to
> establish whether he has any medical problems such as, rage syndrome
There's no test per se for Springer Rage Syndrome. What it means is the dog
goes on on it's humans in an unprovoked manner for no discernable reason.
This dog does that.
Pserious
When you take the dog to the vet you should also ask about possible brain
tumors. A brain tumor in the frontal lobe esp. could be causing the dog to
have aggression reactions. Does he seem confused at all during these
episodes? Especially because he immediately seeks to nuzzle afterwards this
could be an good indicator of a medical problem. Please let us know what
you find out.
Alyssa Mehl
Mark Samwick <ma...@walshnet.com> wrote in message
news:vatuOXcMgSO2We...@4ax.com...
Lynn Kosmakos
Mark Samwick wrote:
> They each play the floorplan of the house as if it were a
> chessboard, laying down at narrow passageways and daring the other to
> pass. I guess this is all normal fun play for entities without
> opposable thumbs and access to a Sega PlayStation. :-)
Mark, I'm afraid this tells me something that you might not like
to hear. Your dogs are involved in a dominance battle. It can be
expressed as territorial aggression, possessive aggression, standard
male-male dog aggression, but the heart of it is a battle over pack
rank - dominance.
What you need to realize is that this is not abnormal. Rather, there
are very useful reasons for this to be the norm in most species: it
ensures adequate territory, food, and breeding rights of the strongest.
There's also good reason for the problem to be cropping up now. Even
though most dog breeds are mature by 1 year old, the mental maturity
age of wild canids is between 2 and 2.5 years. Not suprisingly, that's
also the age when domesticated canines start to display dominance
aggression. Neutering has some effect (studies say it improves 40%
of the cases) but cannot counteract the testosterone wash that
masculinized the pup just prior to birth. Neutering also has no
impact on learned and habitualized behavior.
Inter-male aggression is most serious between males of similar
size and strength. Age also plays a factor, with the most intense
competition between males in their prime. The recovery and maturation
of your terrier has put your 2 dogs into this category.
So, why is the Springer biting people? There can actually be a
connection to what is going on between the 2 dogs. One aspect of
possessive aggression that is often overlooked is that it doesn't
just apply to food, toys, etc.. Attention and play are very often
the objects of possessive aggression. When this happens, it isn't
at all uncommon for the aggression to be directed at the source of
the attention, as well as anyone who is perceived as being in the
way of getting attention and play. In short, the dog is being
dominant by dictating attention and interaction on his own terms -
ever more so if he feels there is competition for it. This can be
hard to understand, but is easily illustrated by a situation most of
us have seen - a dog in sibling rivalry with a child in a household
who gets between the child and parent whenever they play, and may
escalate to nipping at the child or even the adult in competition for
attention.
While I believe that this is what is going on with your Springer,
it is important to do careful analysis whenever there is an abrupt
change in behavior in any dog. First, take the dog to the vet for
a complete physical, including a full blood panel. Eliminate pain
or physical causes first. Then get a referral to a good behaviorist
and fully describe the changes in the interaction between the two
dogs.
I don't think you're dealing with idiopathic aggression (and certainly
hope that's not the case). There are too many possible external
change factors for me to think it is true clinical Episodic Dyscontrol
Syndrome, the syndrome with colloquial names of Springer Rage, Avalanche
Rage, or Jekyll and Hyde Syndrome. The most recent clinical findings
have led to some musings on a possible link with epilepsy and post-
mortum examinations sometimes show brain tumors, but we really don't
know, to any degree of certainty, the direct cause for this syndrome.
At present, idiopathic aggression is a clinical term, or category,
used as a depository for those cases of aggression that don't lend
themselves to classification in the other identifiable categories.
Generally speaking, dogs that display this type of inexplicable
aggression without identifiable trigger tend otherwise to be model
pets. It is also notable how quickly they revert to seemingly normal
and calm behavior. Many seem to be totally unaware of their actions,
and those that are somewhat aware quickly try to make amends with the
owner by being affectionate. I've never seen any warning of an
impending attack the few times I've seen this, though some owners say
they have noticed eyes glazing over before an attack. Others say
they have noticed a mood change before and after an attack, such as
depression or obsessive/compulsive behaviors like chasing light or
shadows or something imaginary. Obviously, idiopathic aggression
is not something that can be cured by training or medication or
behavior modification. Some attempts have been made to treat it
with anticonvulsants because of the possible link with epilepsy,
but euthanasia is the only real option.
But I don't mean to scare you. I really don't think your Springer
has idiopathic aggression. I believe that the dominance competition
between the 2 dogs has resulted in possessive aggression, specifically
around attention. Please keep us informed of the results of
evaluations from your vet and whichever behaviorist you consult.
Lynn K.
The Carrolls
>
>My point, and I do have one, is that this is much too serious a matter to
be
>handled by your puppy training methods.
>They don't have training issues. They need to figure out what changes they
>need to make to see to it this dog doesn't injure anyone else.
>
>What's this guy THINKING about? He can't even pet the dog without fearing
>for his health. Talk about locking the barn door after the cow has
>escaped....
And your suggestion was... ?
That the dog has rage syndrome (which isn't true, for starters), that it's
common (which isn't true either, hip dysplasia is more common in the breed).
No suggestions how to correct the problem, not even a suggestion of
euthanasia.
If the owners can't handle the dog, then it should be put down. If they
want to keep the dog, it's going to be hard to rehabilitate it.
~Emily
The Carrolls
Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
>
>news:YvKb5.760$Ew5....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>> First of all you need to get him checked out at your vet in order to
>> establish whether he has any medical problems such as, rage syndrome
>
>goes on on it's humans in an unprovoked manner for no discernable reason.
>This dog does that.
No, Elaine, he doesn't. To people knowledgable in dog behavior (which
you've already proven you aren't) all of these dog's actions are perfectly
logical.
~Emily
Elaine Gallant
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Sally Young" <sally...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >news:YvKb5.760$Ew5....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >> First of all you need to get him checked out at your vet in order to
> >> establish whether he has any medical problems such as, rage syndrome
> >
dog
> >goes on on it's humans in an unprovoked manner for no discernable reason.
> >This dog does that.
>
> No, Elaine, he doesn't. To people knowledgable in dog behavior (which
> you've already proven you aren't) all of these dog's actions are perfectly
> logical.
Ok, it might make perfect sense to you, but does't really help the family
looking down both barrels of getting sued.
There's no way that chastizing the dog for sending people to the hospital is
dealing with this problem adequately.
Elaine Gallant
Lynn- I believe that was the best "short form" of explanation of Springer
Rage and ideopathic aggression I ever read. Congratulations. Your thinking
on this subject is first rate.
However- It's too big a co-incidence that the dog with this sort of
unprovoked aggression toward humans is a Springer. There's no reason
Springer Rage Syndrome couldn't exist in a milder form than the full blown
Jeckyll and Hyde type of incidences.
In fact, these sorts of surprise "raids" by Springers happen all the time.
I've seen what is essentially the same story about other Springers a dozen
times.
When I saw a subject heading about Springers, this is exactly what I knew it
would be. It even seems to me that incidences of the totally nuts,
hysterical Springer Rage are becoming a lot less common.
What is a lot more common with Springers is this sort of modified form,
where there is some question as to whether the animal isn't just
experiencing the more common dominance aggression.
Some people even think regular Springer Rage is just an extreme form of
dominance aggression.
"Lynn Kosmakos" <lkos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39701AF5...@home.com...
Mark Samwick
Lynn's message about Springer Rage was excellent (my ISP apparently
dropped her message in the transfer, but I was able to read it through
your quoting!).
We had gotten a complete physical on Wills a month or two back, when
he originally started acting aggressive towards me, thinking maybe he
was in pain. The vet checked for body tumors, checked eyes, ears and
mouth, and ran blood tests. Wills was aggressive with the vet too -
he had to be muzzled and it took three of us to keep him still on the
table.
I received an email from one newsgroup reader that suggested that the
problem could be thyroid related. A check with the vet indicated that
that was a test that was not part of the original blood chemistry, so
we probably will take Wills over to have it checked.
I talked with a good friend of mine that breeds show Irish Setters.
She gave me a little more history of the Springer Rage syndrome. It
apparently has been traced back to a championship ESS named "Sally
Lynn" from many, many years ago. Springers that are not from that
Sally Lynn line do not show the syndrome. Unfortunately, the majority
of ESSs today have that bloodline, which has been destroying the line.
The syndrome usually starts to show up between the 6th and 7th years
of age. My friend said that serious show breeders know to stay away
from that line. She related a story about another breeder being at a
Westminster celebration party a few years ago for the champion ESS.
The dog was in the room and without warning, lurched out an nipped her
friend! And then he was fine again. She had other stories about the
breed, many of which ended in the dog's euthanasia. It is a real
problem.
Short of the brain tumor possibility (which I hear is incredibly
expensive to diagnose and even attempt to repair, with single-digit
odds of success), I think that we have a mix of things happening here.
I do believe that we are seeing a physical neurological phenomenon, an
outgrowth of epilepsy, that is a form of the Rage Syndrome. In an
attempt to mitigate that component, Wills is now on a prescription of
32.4mg of Phenobarbital and sharp Wisconsin cheddar twice each day.
One cannot ignore the power of cheese.
I also believe that the two dogs are vying for my affections and
attention, and that since Wills feels he is the underdog, he is now
challenging my authority as the alpha male. Simon does get more close
proximity attention (getting picked up, sitting on laps, etc.) because
of his size - 20 pounds is easier to support than 60 pounds! But we
try not to flaunt that, and have made lots of efforts to shower Wills
with equal affection. I used to roll on the floor with Wills until
this problem started, and I began pondering the costs and limitations
of today's plastic facial surgery technology.
We also play toss the dog toy all the time, but they are usually very
short sessions, since Wills does not acknowledge the official Marquis
de Beagle rules, with which I am most familiar Having owned beagles
most of my earlier life, I know that they have one rule of play - one
throws the object of the day (thrower's choice) as far as one can and
they race to retrieve and return it to you. Then, as it says on most
shampoo bottles, repeat. A beagle will continue this process until
physical exhaustion occurs in either party, If the dog tires first,
he rests for a few minutes, catches his breath and returns for more
play. If it is I that tires first, I rest on the couch, catch a cold
drink and return to watching TV. :-)
Wills, on the other hand, uses a different set of rules. I toss once,
he fetches the item, but then lays there chewing it until I come to
him and fetch it out of his mouth. Being overweight, and suffering
from the early stages of multiple sclerosis, walking is not my joy, so
after about three fetch-throws, I proclaim Wills the winner and retire
from the playing field (see couch-cold drink-TV scenario above). I've
spent years trying to teach Wills the Marquis de Beagle rules, but he
refuses to learn, even when random snacks are declared wild. This is
probably a good example of what Lynn pointed out, the dog dictating
attention on his own terms.
But I digress. I am going to augment the pheno/cheese treatments with
some behavior therapy. I will try to make sure that I go through
doorways first. The other day, as Wills was growling at me, he was
taken aback by my growling back, much louder and more ferociously. We
then had a growling and eyeball-to-eyball starring competition, much
like that scene on the TV show 'Frasier', until my girlfriend ended it
by telling us to shut up.
I may just pad my hand and arm, like they do in security-dog training,
and leave it on him as I pet him and he snaps. It would show him I
have no fear, and I'd be curious to see if he actually would bite me,
and if so, what his facial expression and attitude would be
afterwards.
Of course Wills, now being in the second day of the 10-day quarantine,
is getting a bit of cabin fever, so it is probably not a good time to
push the dominance issue. Maybe after 10 days, the forced quarantine
itself will even be perceived by Wills as an exertion of my dominance
and have some effect. Who knows. It really IS hard to climb into a
dogs brain, isn't it?
Thanks for all of the advice!
--- Mark in NC
http://go.to/realnames - Nom de Guerre
from the same crazy guy that brings you
http://go.to/puns - The Pun FAQtory
and now ...
http://www.essaycontests.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Elaine Gallant
>
> >
> >My point, and I do have one, is that this is much too serious a matter to
> be
> >handled by your puppy training methods.
> >They don't have training issues. They need to figure out what changes
they
> >need to make to see to it this dog doesn't injure anyone else.
> >
> >What's this guy THINKING about? He can't even pet the dog without fearing
> >for his health. Talk about locking the barn door after the cow has
> >escaped....
>
> And your suggestion was... ?
>
> That the dog has rage syndrome (which isn't true, for starters)
How do you know? Springer Rage is common among Springers. There's every
indication that milder cased of Springer Rage exist. It's only reasonable.
There are milder and more severe cases of epilepsy.
Not every case of epilepsy is fall down on the ground and sieze for 12
hours.
> that it's
> common (which isn't true either
Of course Springer Rage is common in Springers.
> hip dysplasia is more common in the breed).
Which is entirely meaningless to the family with a rage syndrome dog.
> No suggestions how to correct the problem, not even a suggestion of
> euthanasia.
You said it. I don't need to. You are right.
The Carrolls
>indication that milder cased of Springer Rage exist. It's only reasonable.
>There are milder and more severe cases of epilepsy.
>Not every case of epilepsy is fall down on the ground and sieze for 12
>hours.
Cite your source, please. What percentage of pure-bred English Springer
Spaniels have been diagnosed with Rage Syndrome.
~Emily
The Carrolls
>Of course Wills, now being in the second day of the 10-day quarantine,
>is getting a bit of cabin fever, so it is probably not a good time to
>push the dominance issue. Maybe after 10 days, the forced quarantine
>itself will even be perceived by Wills as an exertion of my dominance
>and have some effect. Who knows. It really IS hard to climb into a
>dogs brain, isn't it?
Now IS INDEED the best time to start convincing him that you are indeed in
charge! There is no worries of him taking it out on someone else that
doesn't live in the house, and you've got lots of oppurtunity to force him
to do what you'd like.
I doubt this is truly "rage syndrome." From your description, this dog has
decided he's in charge. From what I've seen, many cases of "rage syndrome"
are most likely dominance--it seems to be a problem with male springers.
I've worked with several that insisted that they hump legs or jump up and
mouth people. Rage syndrome would not occur in specifically two situations,
but would also occur (if he is mouthy frequently) when you are not doing
anything to stimulate him--sitting at the table eating, sleeping, walking to
the bathroom, etc.
Again. If you are not willing to devote every second of your day to
ensuring that this dog is safe to handle, through training, socialization,
muzzling, and possibly chemical (drug) intervention, your only choice is to
put the dog down. Remember that.
~Emily
lehu...@my-deja.com
ma...@walshnet.com wrote: <<snipped>>
<<I talked with a good friend of mine that breeds show Irish Setters.
She gave me a little more history of the Springer Rage syndrome. It
apparently has been traced back to a championship ESS named "Sally
Lynn" from many, many years ago. >>
Well, it really wasn't *that* long ago; I believe the dog was
campaigned in the sixties or seventies.
It is a travesty to the breed that a sporting dog should have Anything
like this.
Linda H. and the Route 66 Pack
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> However- It's too big a co-incidence that the dog with this sort of
> unprovoked aggression toward humans is a Springer. There's no reason
> Springer Rage Syndrome couldn't exist in a milder form than the full blown
> Jeckyll and Hyde type of incidences.
There is no reason it couldn't exist with behaviors other than full
blown attacks. But the key factor is unprovoked. I don't believe
that this dog's actions are unprovoked at all, in the sense that
they occur in recognizable situations. I believe the dog is in a
maintained stress state because of the conflict with the terrier
and that both the conflicted reaction to attention from Mark and
the attacks on strangers who are interacting with the owner are
expressions of possessive aggression.
> Some people even think regular Springer Rage is just an extreme form of
> dominance aggression.
You're talking about C.W. Meisterfield, and all I can say is that I
think he is dead wrong (about many things). Forget the label, Springer
Rage. If we accept the term idiopathic aggression to describe a
syndrome that cannot be classified as other forms of aggression, it
can't be dominance aggression, by definition.
Lynn K.
Lynn Kosmakos
Mark Samwick wrote:
>
> I received an email from one newsgroup reader that suggested that the
> problem could be thyroid related. A check with the vet indicated that
> that was a test that was not part of the original blood chemistry, so
> we probably will take Wills over to have it checked.
This definately should be done.
> It
> apparently has been traced back to a championship ESS named "Sally
> Lynn" from many, many years ago. Springers that are not from that
> Sally Lynn line do not show the syndrome.
The kennel name is Salilyn and the dog that went BIS at Westminster
last year was from that kennel. But there is no real proof that
the syndrome is limited to those lines. It is widely believed in
the show world because there were a couple of well-known incidents
involving Salilyn dogs and those dogs produced offspring who also
displayed the same behaviors. That suggests a genetic factor, but
it is not exclusive to Salilyn dogs. Nor is it exclusive to English
Springer Spaniels. It's well documented in many other breeds, and
I've even seen it in a 10 week old Chow/APBT pound puppy.
> I also believe that the two dogs are vying for my affections and
> attention, and that since Wills feels he is the underdog, he is now
> challenging my authority as the alpha male. Simon does get more close
> proximity attention (getting picked up, sitting on laps, etc.) because
> of his size - 20 pounds is easier to support than 60 pounds!
Forgive me for saying so, but I don't believe you are taking this
aspect seriously enough. You seem to be looking for keys in the
"rules" the two dogs use in play. That's great observation, but you
are not equipped to interpret those observations. You need the help
of a good behaviorist to clarify what is going on. More importantly,
to tell you what to do about it. This is way too serious for amateur
trial and error methods.
> But I digress. I am going to augment the pheno/cheese treatments with
> some behavior therapy. I will try to make sure that I go through
> doorways first. The other day, as Wills was growling at me, he was
> taken aback by my growling back,
2 comments: Anticonvulsant regimes are a true stab in the dark.
There is no evidence to suggest their efficacy. Phenobarbital in and
of itself can produce effects like lethargy and increased water
consumption. Secondly, your attempts to implement some parts of a
dominance-reestablishment routine may very well backfire by increasing
the stress level of an already stressed dog. Get professional help
with this.
Lynn K.
The Carrolls
Lynn Kosmakos wrote in message <3970D955...@home.com>...
>
>
>Mark Samwick wrote:
>>
>> I received an email from one newsgroup reader that suggested that the
>> problem could be thyroid related. A check with the vet indicated that
>> that was a test that was not part of the original blood chemistry, so
>> we probably will take Wills over to have it checked.
>
>
>> apparently has been traced back to a championship ESS named "Sally
>> Lynn" from many, many years ago. Springers that are not from that
>> Sally Lynn line do not show the syndrome.
>
>last year was from that kennel. But there is no real proof that
>the syndrome is limited to those lines. It is widely believed in
>the show world because there were a couple of well-known incidents
>involving Salilyn dogs and those dogs produced offspring who also
>displayed the same behaviors. That suggests a genetic factor, but
>it is not exclusive to Salilyn dogs. Nor is it exclusive to English
>Springer Spaniels. It's well documented in many other breeds, and
>I've even seen it in a 10 week old Chow/APBT pound puppy.
Also, it's been documented in American Cockers which were split off well
before the 60s and 70s. And I don't think Chows and ABPT's have been bred
to Springers (as a practice, at least) for many many years.
~Emily
Elizabeth Naime
>It is a travesty to the breed that a sporting dog should have Anything
>like this.
It is. I think it's also unfortunate, though, that people think it's
terribly common when it's really quite rare, and ignore symptoms of
short-fuse dominance aggression in the rush to join the "Springer
Rage!" bandwagon.
Elizabeth Naime <Elsp...@juno.com>
and the menagerie <dogs.a...@home.on.waterbed>
....new email (same old waterbed)
Ludwig Smith
wrote:
>Thanks to all who replied to my initial posting. You are correct,
>Lynn's message about Springer Rage was excellent (my ISP apparently
>dropped her message in the transfer, but I was able to read it through
>your quoting!).
<Snip>
>But I digress. I am going to augment the pheno/cheese treatments with
>some behavior therapy. I will try to make sure that I go through
>doorways first. The other day, as Wills was growling at me, he was
>taken aback by my growling back, much louder and more ferociously. We
>then had a growling and eyeball-to-eyball starring competition, much
>like that scene on the TV show 'Frasier', until my girlfriend ended it
>by telling us to shut up.
>
>I may just pad my hand and arm, like they do in security-dog training,
>and leave it on him as I pet him and he snaps. It would show him I
>have no fear, and I'd be curious to see if he actually would bite me,
>and if so, what his facial expression and attitude would be
>afterwards.
I would urge you to perhaps reconsider both what you are doing and
what you are contemplating in these last two paragraphs. This is not
a computer program that you can go back to the last saved copy and
start over. If this gets screwed up then it may get screwed up for
good. Better to take it sure and steady, even if it is slower.
You have a relatively complicated situation in your household and you
need to approach it with some sort of plan in mind. The more
confrontational approach you are taking might work, but it might just
as easily totally backfire and make things much worse. And you still
have to know what you did wrong and how to keep it from re-occuring.
I would highly recommend that you call around to find some trainers
who have experience in aggressive dogs. Discuss your situation and
what needs to be done. Choose one which with you feel comfortable.
Be aware that there are a couple of different schools of thought on
dealing with dogs. Most are very effective, if you follow the regimen
the trainer lays out without improvising on your own. That's why you
have to feel comfortable with the trainer and their method. The
trainer should be able to lay out a plan of action on what you're
going to do and why you're doing it.
If you want to do some research on the Net I would suggest starting at
Dr. Mark Plonsky's web site http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm
Very comprehensive. For books I would suggest Job Michael Evans
'People, Pooches and Problems', Jean Donaldson 'Dogs are from Neptune'
and Dr. Myrna Milani 'Body Language and Emotions of Dogs'. Those will
give you enough background to confuse your and recognize what the
trainers are talking about.
>Of course Wills, now being in the second day of the 10-day quarantine,
>is getting a bit of cabin fever, so it is probably not a good time to
>push the dominance issue. Maybe after 10 days, the forced quarantine
>itself will even be perceived by Wills as an exertion of my dominance
>and have some effect. Who knows.
A good trainer would know the answer to that.
>It really IS hard to climb into a dogs brain, isn't it?
Not really. Training and behavioral issues isn't rocket science. You
just have to remember it's a dog you're dealing with and they don't
think or react like people.
Ludwig Smith
Dog FAQS
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/
Lynn Kosmakos
Elizabeth Naime wrote:
> It is. I think it's also unfortunate, though, that people think it's
> terribly common when it's really quite rare, and ignore symptoms of
> short-fuse dominance aggression in the rush to join the "Springer
> Rage!" bandwagon.
It seems to me a bit unseemly for anybody to be arguing about the
validity of their on-line diagnosis, given the severity of Mark's
situation. The best we can do to help him is to put every possibility
out there for him to consider and followup on. Yes, it is important
to present accurate information, but I would hope Mark has the good
sense to get the professional help he needs rather than simply take
any on-line advice blindly.
Lynn K.
Robin Nuttall
> Also, it's been documented in American Cockers which were split off well
> before the 60s and 70s. And I don't think Chows and ABPT's have been bred
> to Springers (as a practice, at least) for many many years.
American cockers were split off from English cockers, not springers.
They are all spaniels, but Am and English Cockers (which are just called
cockers over in their home country) are much more closely related than
Am Cockers and Springers.
And no, I don't think either Chows or APBTs have been bred to springers
deliberately, ever!
Sally Hennessey
<elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>How do you know? Springer Rage is common among Springers. There's every
>indication that milder cased of Springer Rage exist. It's only reasonable.
>There are milder and more severe cases of epilepsy.
>Not every case of epilepsy is fall down on the ground and sieze for 12
>hours.
Actually, there probably aren't any dogs with epilepsy that fall down
on the ground and seize for 12 hours, because they'd be dead.
Sally Hennessey
The Carrolls
Robin Nuttall wrote in message <397131D2...@ddgraphix.com>...
>
>> Also, it's been documented in American Cockers which were split off well
>> before the 60s and 70s. And I don't think Chows and ABPT's have been
bred
>> to Springers (as a practice, at least) for many many years.
>
>American cockers were split off from English cockers, not springers.
>They are all spaniels, but Am and English Cockers (which are just called
>cockers over in their home country) are much more closely related than
>Am Cockers and Springers.
Right. Which means that there hasn't been a chance they've been interbred
since the 1850s or so.
~Emily
Elaine Gallant
>
>
> Elizabeth Naime wrote:
>
> > It is. I think it's also unfortunate, though, that people think it's
> > terribly common when it's really quite rare, and ignore symptoms of
> > short-fuse dominance aggression in the rush to join the "Springer
> > Rage!" bandwagon.
Yes... and who is to say that Springer Rage Syndrome isn't the more extreme
form of ultra short fuse dominance aggression?
> It seems to me a bit unseemly for anybody to be arguing about the
> validity of their on-line diagnosis, given the severity of Mark's
> situation.
I doubt that even Mark really understands the seriousness of his situation.
The violence from the dog started with it hurting him. This has escalated
into the dog biting one innocent neighbor and sending
another one to the hospital.
Lori
5 minutes long. He is now on meds to control them.
--
Lori, and Lacie,Sam, and Bubba ( the furry people)
Sally Hennessey <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:3971a064....@news.ncweb.com...
Elaine Gallant
sudden, one single Springer alone had this brain deformity. The breed
probably had quite a few individuals with very short fuses. Somehow or
other, two short-tempered type of dogs were put together, and the deformity
came out dominant in this one dog.
Not really different from many other kinds of purebred animals. The genes
that give the animal most of it's typeyness also carry the most common
deformities for that breed.
"The Carrolls" <car...@dundee.net> wrote in message
news:p_4c5.1576$Y91.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
>
> Lynn Kosmakos wrote in message <3970D955...@home.com>...
> >
> >
> >Mark Samwick wrote:
> >>
> >> I received an email from one newsgroup reader that suggested that the
> >> problem could be thyroid related. A check with the vet indicated that
> >> that was a test that was not part of the original blood chemistry, so
> >> we probably will take Wills over to have it checked.
> >
> >This definately should be done.
> >
> >> It
> >> apparently has been traced back to a championship ESS named "Sally
> >> Lynn" from many, many years ago. Springers that are not from that
> >> Sally Lynn line do not show the syndrome.
> >
> >The kennel name is Salilyn and the dog that went BIS at Westminster
> >last year was from that kennel. But there is no real proof that
> >the syndrome is limited to those lines. It is widely believed in
> >the show world because there were a couple of well-known incidents
> >involving Salilyn dogs and those dogs produced offspring who also
> >displayed the same behaviors. That suggests a genetic factor, but
> >it is not exclusive to Salilyn dogs. Nor is it exclusive to English
> >Springer Spaniels. It's well documented in many other breeds, and
> >I've even seen it in a 10 week old Chow/APBT pound puppy.
>
> Also, it's been documented in American Cockers which were split off well
> before the 60s and 70s. And I don't think Chows and ABPT's have been bred
> to Springers (as a practice, at least) for many many years.
>
> ~Emily
>
>
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> Yes... and who is to say that Springer Rage Syndrome isn't the more extreme
> form of ultra short fuse dominance aggression?
Behaviorists who study it and see that it cannot be described as
dominance aggression. That's one of the hallmarks of the syndrome;
lack of a trigger.
Lynn K.
Lynn Kosmakos
Lori wrote:
>
> We have friends with an epileptic GR and the longest seizure he ever had was
> 5 minutes long.
Seizure activity varies quite a bit. A very common pattern is a
dog that will have 2 convulsion events within a 24 hour period.
That is actually a single seizure episode. There's also the
extreme case of a dog that goes into convulsions and does not
come out of them, or has clusters of multiple convulsion events.
This is fatal unless stopped. I know a couple of dogs in this
situation who have permanent shunts in their forelegs for immediate
IVs when they start to seize.
Lynn K.
Elaine Gallant
A trigger discernable by humans. By this token, the dog in question has no
trigger for attacking his owners, the neighbors, or whoever else he is
biting. You claimed it was free floating stress and dominance aggression.
> Lynn K.
Jerry Howe
"Mark Samwick" <ma...@walshnet.com> wrote in message
news:vatuOXcMgSO2We...@4ax.com...
> During the first year, Simon was pretty meek and the larger Wills
> ruled the roost. However as time went on, Simon learned to
> sometimes take a stand and even bare his teeth and growl at Wills.
You should interrupt any aggression or inappropriate behavior with
variable distraction and praise techniques.
> They still play a lot together, but there are now lots of
territorial
> games, as they each vie to get the most attention from the two
> humans in the house.
Dogs have lots of attention getting devices. Don't fall victim to
their ploys to get you involved in their behavior either as a player
or a competitor. Break their behavior with a neutral distraction and
prolonged non-physical praise.
> Wills seems to be king of the fenced-in backyard.
I don't know what you mean by that.
> Simon now sleeps with us at night and growls enough to keep Wills
> out of the bedroom.
Can't let him do that. You should interrupt his objection with a
distraction and praise and have the other dog come in and make
himself at home.
> They each play the floorplan of the house as if it were a
> chessboard, laying down at narrow passageways and daring the
> other to pass.
Can't let them dictate who's going to do or go where or whatever.
That's how you end up losing control. If one dog wants to go into a
room but another dog is laying across the doorway, it's your job to
tell him to jump over the other or have the other dog move away, but
you should referee.
> I guess this is all normal fun play for entities without
> opposable thumbs and access to a Sega PlayStation. :-)
I don't think so. Not at all fun or play. It also diminishes you as
thier leader.
> Okay, here is our problem. Wills has always been a gentle dog,
> who barked at strangers and REALLY barked and pulled (on his
> lead) at other dogs.
O.K., you can learn to interrupt his barking or dog aggression using
sound distraction and praise techniques.
> This past January, while walking the dogs, my friend and
> I stopped to talk with a neighbor and Wills jumped on her and
> nipped her hand, drawing blood. We were shocked by this, but
> thought that maybe Wills was confused because the neighbor's
> clothes might have had the scent of her own dog.
No, that's not a reason a dog would bite, and there's no excuse for
it. Accidents can happen, but now that you know he might pull
something, you should be able to control him.
> This past April, Wills started growling and snapping at me.
Not good.
> He will come over and nudge my hand, tail awaggin', indicating that
> he wants to be petted. I will pet him for a few moments, talk to
him
> in a pleasant tone, and he will then start the deep growl, and if I
> don't get my hand away fast, he will snap his head around as if he
> might be trying to bite me.
I don't see any "as if's" about it. Sounds like he's trying to snap
at you. It's probably because of the ''stress'' involved with the way
dogs regard greeting each other. That's why they wag their tails,
it's an anxiety relief mechanism.
> On a couple of occasions, he has bypassed the
> growl and gone right to the test of my reflexes. So far, I still
> count five digits on my right hand.
Let's hope you math skills don't suffer as a result of this problem.
You've got to figure out what is going on with him and what to do
about it.
> The most fascinating thing about this is that right after I bring
my
> hand back down from its quickly-found safe haven, Wills is usually
> back nudging me for more attention, or lifting his left paw up (we
> call it his "sympathy paw") looking for more attention.
Right. He's not aware of what he's doing. He's reflexing to the
stress of greeting, not thinking.
> It has gotten to the point where I don't want to touch him any
more.
Well, you are a mathematician, and need all your digits working for
you, or you'll come up short with your ciphering...
> This does not happen with my friend, who, as I said, has raised him
> from a pup, although he did growl at her once.
Do you mean since the past recent history, or previously???
> Then today, while my friend was walking both dogs alone this past
> evening, she stopped to talk with another neighbor, and Wills
> suddenly jumped up and bit the neighbor on her thigh. They didn't
> think it was a full bite, but later on, the neighbor ended up going
to
> the hospital to check it out.
Too bad. Should learn to control him better. And work on the problem
he has with greeting people or other dogs. I think that's what his
problem is. It's probably insecurity, or a lack of confidence...
Confident dogs don't have to be aggressive.
> The hospital was required to report the incident to animal control,
> which paid us a visit at 11:30 pm to check out the dog and the
> rabies certificate! The dog is now quaranteened in the house
> for 10 days. We can only take Wills out on a lead briefly in our
> backyard to handle nature's business.
That's normal.
> Can anybody lend us some advice on what is happening here?
Your dog is getting a stress reaction to greeting. That's why dogs
wag their tails. Something scares him about meeting or greeting other
dogs and people, he gets scared, and snaps. He's reflexing to a
defensive behavior, not planning an attack. He doesn't even know he's
doing it. Strictly reflex.
> I'm a computer nerd by trade and I live on logic. So I'm having a
> tough time understanding Wills' behavior toward me.
Linear thinkers don't do well with dog thinking.
> He curls up at my feet, loves to follow me around, but then attacks
> when he gets the attention he is seeking.
Almost. He gets scared and reflexes to a natural fear or stress
reaction.
> No, this is NOT a game.
Of course not.
> When he is in the growl/snap mode, his bulging brown eyes make
> it clear that he is deadly serious. And then they melt back into
the
> "Come on dad, tickle me please" look.
Because he comes out of it, and you're stil there, and everthing
seems O.K., he didn't know he'd even flashed like that.
> And, of course, the liability potential of having a dog that
attacks
> neighbors, or others that might enter my house, scares the willies
> out of me!
I don't think he's going to just charge up to a stranger. He's likely
only to respond to someone he's meeting or being introduced to.
> What is happening here? Can this be what I have heard
> referred to as "canine rage syndrome?"
Could be the same. You've got a Springer, they're infamous for Sudden
Rage Syndrome, but I've seen it in other breeds.
> And if so, is there a cure for this?
I think there's a few things you should do.
> One last thing I will add here is the fact that we used to see
> Wills having what appeared to be momentary seizures, where he
> would stare forward and his bottom lip would quiver slightly.
Tha't what I was expecting.
> It was akin to a mild epileptic seizure that would just last for a
few
> seconds. When it was over, he would just go back to what he was
> doing. But I have not seen that seizure activity now in almost a
> year, and I don't know if it relates to the problem that we are
having
> now.
I'd say they're related. The behavior is a short circuit in his head.
It overrides all the memories of successful meetings etc.
> My friend and I love this English Springer and want to see him
well.
> We will do whatever it takes, but something has to be done before
> this mental disorder (?) causes harm to us, our neighbors and even
> Simon.
Yes.
> I'm looking for ideas and explanations, especially from other
> Springer Spaniel owners. Thanks!
I'm not a Springe owner, but I've been a professional dog trainer for
three dozen years, specializing in behavior problems. I've read most
of the other posts in this thread, and I'm astounded at the mentality
of some of the posters. You've been given a lot of really bad
information from some of them. Anyone who tells you to confront and
try to back down a dog who is not even thinking in a rational frame
of mind, is more insane than the dog...
The only decent post was the one telling you to check his thyroid and
do some behavior modification... Get the thyroid level checked. Get
him on anti siezure medication. A tumor is rather unlikely and
expensvie to diagnose and almost impossible to treat. All the
behavioral information you need to rehabilitate this dog is available
for free in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual at
http://www.doggydoright.com
> --- Mark in NC
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say." Montaigne
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman.
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw.
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems
of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the
simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to
admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in
explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which
they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more
complaints to my personal email than any other controversial
post I have made to date, bar none?:
caveat
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would
rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you
have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke
him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold,
hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are
appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher,
or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can't train your
dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who
ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned
qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split
seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless
hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> By this token, the dog in question has no
> trigger for attacking his owners, the neighbors, or whoever else he is
> biting. You claimed it was free floating stress and dominance aggression.
No, that's not what I believe at all! And I don't believe that's
what I said. I believe this dog is in a dominance battle with the
2nd dog in the house. One of the ways this is being manifested is
in possessive aggression over attention. When he is with his female
owner and she stops to talk to a stranger he directs his aggression
to the person who is getting her attention (instead of him). When
he is getting attention from Mark, he is conflicted with the terrier
present and at a certain point the stress builds to where he snaps
at Mark. Attention is the trigger.
Lynn K.
Elaine Gallant
This dog is a timebomb regardless of how you explain his behavior.
"Lynn Kosmakos" <lkos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39724FA7...@home.com...
Elaine Gallant
>
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> > However- It's too big a co-incidence that the dog with this sort of
> > unprovoked aggression toward humans is a Springer. There's no reason
> > Springer Rage Syndrome couldn't exist in a milder form than the full
blown
> > Jeckyll and Hyde type of incidences.
>
> blown attacks. But the key factor is unprovoked. I don't believe
> that this dog's actions are unprovoked at all, in the sense that
> they occur in recognizable situations.
But it doesn't make a difference. At some point, an ultra short fuse and no
fuse at all are indistinguishable.
TrotMW
>Springer Rage is common among Springers.
And your source for this would be?
MW
Elaine Gallant
"TrotMW" <tro...@aol.comNOPE> wrote in message
news:20000717143645...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> >From: "Elaine Gallant"
>
> >Springer Rage is common among Springers.
>
> And your source for this would be?
:) ONE indication that this is not an isolated unusual condition in
Springers is the name of the illness- Springer Rage Syndrome. Why would
they name a whole disease after a breed if the condition didn't frequently
occur in this breed?
> MW
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> But it doesn't make a difference. At some point, an ultra short fuse and > no fuse at all are indistinguishable.
It makes all the difference in the world. A behavioral problem
may be cureable; idiopathic aggression is not. But the real question
is how should we respond to Mark, who needs serious help? Labelling
a dog we don't know with a death verdict is no help at all. Giving
him as much background information as possible and urging him to
get the help of people who can distinguish between the two is the
most help we can give him.
Lynn K.
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> :) ONE indication that this is not an isolated unusual condition in
> Springers is the name of the illness- Springer Rage Syndrome. Why would
> they name a whole disease after a breed if the condition didn't frequently
> occur in this breed?
Very simply, this is just one name for the syndrome. Avalanche Rage
is another, and doesn't imply nordic dogs :-) Springers got tagged
with it after a very public and well-known incident that involved
a Springer, but it should not be presumed to be Springer exclusive.
Lynn K.
>
> > MW
Elaine Gallant
>
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> > But it doesn't make a difference. At some point, an ultra short fuse and
> no fuse at all are indistinguishable.
>
> It makes all the difference in the world. A behavioral problem
> may be cureable; idiopathic aggression is not. But the real question
> is how should we respond to Mark, who needs serious help? Labelling
> a dog we don't know with a death verdict is no help at all.
Sure it's a help. To me, ultra-short fuse type of temper in a dog is
absolutely not acceptible. YOU might be willing to fool with expensive
doggie psychologist sessions, the threat of lawsuit, and the fear of being
seriously bitten when you least expect it. Many people would not want to
live that way.
If he chooses to get out now, he can do that. I would.
Jerry Howe
Your pal, Jerry. j;~}
Dianne Schoenberg
Elaine Gallant <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >Springer Rage is common among Springers.
>>
>> And your source for this would be?
>
>Springers is the name of the illness- Springer Rage Syndrome. Why would
>they name a whole disease after a breed if the condition didn't frequently
>occur in this breed?
:-). Not exactly what most would consider hard evidence.
Can't always tell much from a name--after all, Australian
Shepherds are not from Asutralia...
Dianne
BlueDogs
Jerry Howe <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:39739094...@lagavulin.pet.hw.ac.uk...
> You are a mental case.
>
Pot, kettle, black.
--
~Darlene~ with Renegade, Gypsy, and Rebel
Learn about Blue and Liver GSD's!
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com
Bl...@bluedogs.8m.com
Jerry Howe
BigDogBite
WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!! WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jerry Howe (Mr Helper) (Mr. Nice Guy) (Honest Abe) Is mentally
unstable and ABUSES dogs.he is worse than a SHOCK COLLAR...the
proof
"Jerry Howe" wrote:
"If the dog is trained properly, he does not think of his
protection
training as fun and games at the big dog park. During a
protection class, the dogs temperature should go up to 106 and
he should have loose stools within two or three minutes of
beginning the lesson."
He tortures dogs till they have a temperature of 106 and have
the runs.
He is also a puppy mill breeder
"I grew up in a professional breeding kennel. I've owned stud
dogs who've sired hundreds of puppies. I've whelped thousands of
puppies" HOWE disgusting you are JERRY
Another of Jerry's stupid post
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
Of course I could be all wet. It's possible you've trained him
very similarly to the non force, non confrontational methods I
teach, and the aggression is a result of being too gentle and
kind. Dogs LEARN from copying us. It's called allelomimetic
behavior."
Everyone knows if positive methods are used the aggressive
behavior is NOT allelomimetic once again proving he is a fake.
Another of Jerry's gems a reply to this quote
"I hate the way ppl say "choke chains" - they are only choke
chains if put on backwards."
Jerry - "Whatever"
He doesn't even know HOWE to put a choke chain on a dog Jerry
Howe
Jerry Howe
626 Raleigh St
Orlando, FL 32805
407-425-5092
Jerry Howe and his Doggy Do Wrong are being investigated for
fraud.
Another comment from an unsatisfied customer
"I have had the DDR machine for approx a month. and can tell you
that it did absolutely notheing for
Sandy my golden Reteiever. I used it accrding to the directions
Mr Howe provided...He still Barks
at the neighbors dogs (they bark back). He still has this thing
about chasing cars and bicyclists.
I took it to the dog kennel nearby and the manager used it for a
weekend. He said there was NO difference in the way the dogs
acted, NONE, NADA"
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=645131515.1
http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/concerns.html
http://deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516286408W
A List of Jerry's References from the newsgroups
"Jerry Howe is a freak... I have my doubts as to whether he has
ever even SEEN a dog never mind trained one. "
"That's not a training method. It's an abuse method. Pray tell,
how does this asshole who has no business touching a dog, much
less training one, achieve and control the temperature spike? "
"Yeah, that's rich. He'll make a dog sick enough to die, ON
PURPOSE, but ridicules choke chains?"
"He's rude, annoying, obnoxious, and every other word in the
book"
"Doesn't he sell magic black boxes? "
"That would be the same person...his magic black box will cure
*any*
behavior problem, don't you know? "
"It does? It must be used by whacking the dog over the
head....I'd like him to demonstrate on himself... "
"And yet do you notice that the second anyone talks about choke
collars and prong collars and hanging, pinching or twisting he
calls it animal abuse? And spiking a dogs temp like that isent?
He is a lunatic... best to be ignored. "
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Jerry Howe
<bigdogbit...@mail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Jerry you don't have to keep telling us what are we know.
Up yours BigDumbAss.................. , Jerry. j;~}
Elaine Gallant
>
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> > :) ONE indication that this is not an isolated unusual condition in
> > Springers is the name of the illness- Springer Rage Syndrome. Why would
> > they name a whole disease after a breed if the condition didn't
frequently
> > occur in this breed?
>
We were only talking about one name for this syndrome.
> Avalanche Rage
> is another, and doesn't imply nordic dogs :-) Springers got tagged
> with it after a very public and well-known incident that involved
> a Springer, but it should not be presumed to be Springer exclusive.
There is nothing about Springer Rage Syndrome that preclude ideopathic
aggression in other breeds.
Are you contending that there is no Springer Rage Syndrome? That it has only
happened in TWO cases?
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> Are you contending that there is no Springer Rage Syndrome? That it has only
> happened in TWO cases?
No, not at all. I'm saying that the syndrome bears that colliqual
name because it was associated with Springers in some very public
incidents. If the dogs involved had been Beagles, we could be talking
about Beagle Rage Syndrome.
Lynn K.
Elaine Gallant
>
>
> Elaine Gallant wrote:
>
> > Are you contending that there is no Springer Rage Syndrome? That it has
only
> > happened in TWO cases?
>
> No, not at all. I'm saying that the syndrome bears that colliqual
> name because it was associated with Springers in some very public
> incidents.
What about all the times Springer Rage occured and it didn't come to public
attention?
Dalmatians and English Setters are also getting reputation for wigginess.
Lynn Kosmakos
Elaine Gallant wrote:
> What about all the times Springer Rage occured and it didn't come to public
> attention?
>
> Dalmatians and English Setters are also getting reputation for wigginess.
My point exactly. We know it exists in many breeds. Why did the
Springers get the "honor" of the label? Because the dog world was
watching & talking about a well known example. I do believe that it
is more common in Springers than, say, Borzoi. But I'm not convinced
that it is any more common in Springers than it is in Cockers, Beagles,
and other afflicted breeds.
Lynn K.