The Dog Whisperer
Judith Althouse
guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so, whadda ya say do ya like
him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
Paula
I've only seen the show once. He seemed to have some pretty good
ideas on the show I watched. I kind of have a bad attitude about
anything "whisperer" but I figure if he is a good trainer, I guess I
could get over him calling himself the dog whisperer. In all honesty,
though, I couldn't tell from that one episode alone whether he is a
good trainer in general or not. I did like the way he handled the
owners. He seemed to want them to be calmly confident and understand
what their dogs need from them, which I am all for.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
jav...@yahoo.com
Judith Althouse wrote:
> Thumbs up or Thumbs down
Thumbs down for me. I disagree with a lot of the techniques he uses.
For example, he often uses flooding to overcome fears, and I believe
flooding produces very temporary relief, at best, and often intensifies
the fear instead of decreasing it. There are others, but those are
kind of trainer objections to a show that is aimed at the average dog
owner. That's really where my biggest objection is - that he doesn't
really show the work behind the results and misleads viewers by
oversimplifying what's actually done. Remember that you are viewing a
heavily edited show. Pat Miller said it much better than I can in her
review of his book for the APDT journal. I'll try to find an online
copy of that review to link to.
Lynn K.
Judith Althouse
person's review of the book. It is my current favorite book. I am not
familiar with the term flooding? Could you help me out Lynn? Certainly
I understand he doesn't just show up on the scene and fix the dogs and
their owners on one edited show. I assume the general public gets it
too....but I like his style I just need to be more consistent.
Be Free,
Judy
Paula
>Thumbs down for me. I disagree with a lot of the techniques he uses.
>For example, he often uses flooding to overcome fears, and I believe
>flooding produces very temporary relief, at best, and often intensifies
>the fear instead of decreasing it.
Some of the human research has shown flooding to be very effective for
anxiety, but since it is hell on the patient, gradual desensitization
still seems to be the preferred method. I remember a brand new PhD
talking a few years back about how flooding would be the only way
desensitization was done in the near future and wondering if she had
worked with any real live patients. Aside from the toll it takes on
the dog or human to have it flooded with its fear in an intense
session instead of exposed gradually over time, I am not sure that
dogs would even get the same benefit that humans did. It seems to me
that flooding would work on a more cognitive level whereas
desensitization can work on either a cognitive level or an emotional
association level or both and still work. But I'm just thinking out
loud. I would be interested in what you have seen with flooding work
with dogs.
Alison
news:5351-44A...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
Can you give me his name. I'm in the Uk and dont know who you mean.
Alison
>
Alison
news:1houa2dkcrnumi12u...@4ax.com...
The problem with dog training/behaviour TV shows is that Joe Public will
use the techniques and likely make things worse.
Alison
Handsome Jack Morrison
>Lynn K.
Put me in the thumbs-UP column. And I disagree with you that his
flooding techniques would produce only temporary relief. At least the
ones that I've seen him use.
But I don't know much more about him that what I see on his show,
which I think is a pretty good one.
Because it highlights and demonstrates that it's almost always the
owner's behavior that is at the root of a dog's behavior.
I'd like to read Miller's review though, so please do post a link if
you find one.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
TaraG
"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message
news:1houa2dkcrnumi12u...@4ax.com...
>
>>Thumbs down for me. I disagree with a lot of the techniques he uses.
>>For example, he often uses flooding to overcome fears, and I believe
>>flooding produces very temporary relief, at best, and often intensifies
>>the fear instead of decreasing it.
>
> Some of the human research has shown flooding to be very effective for
> anxiety,
Really? I'd love to see the results of those studies. I've never found the
results (amazing as they can be) anything more than temporary results at
best. Though my sample group only involves me (I was unintentionally flooded
with heights, and yes I'm terrified of heights!), a few friends who have
confronted their inner terrors, and a buttload of dogs.
> but since it is hell on the patient, gradual desensitization
> still seems to be the preferred method. I remember a brand new PhD
> talking a few years back about how flooding would be the only way
> desensitization was done in the near future and wondering if she had
> worked with any real live patients. Aside from the toll it takes on
> the dog or human to have it flooded with its fear in an intense
> session instead of exposed gradually over time, I am not sure that
> dogs would even get the same benefit that humans did.
I've also seen lots of dogs react by learning to become anxious about things
*associated* with the flooding. Really dangerous stuff, IMO.
> It seems to me
> that flooding would work on a more cognitive level whereas
> desensitization can work on either a cognitive level or an emotional
> association level or both and still work. But I'm just thinking out
> loud. I would be interested in what you have seen with flooding work
> with dogs.
When I was flooded, I was actually "cured" of me fear of heights....for
about a month. And it wasn't at all cognitive (trust me, cognitive never
enters the picture when heights are involved). The thing I really liked
about it was that for the first time in my life, I could truly appreciate a
beautiful view from a mountaintop. But, it really didn't last long. Perhaps
if I had gone to high places every day in that time, I might have maintained
what I had gained, I don't know. But it was still totally temporary. That
was the only time I've ever been completely flooded. The times I've gone to
high places and not "finished the job", I've only ended up with the fear
reinforced and nervous about associated stimuli.
In dogs, I've done some work with this stuff. I have not seen flooding to be
very practical or very helpful for the most part. If its a minor anxiety,
then flooding can be a quick method through the fear to get to the good
result for the dog. Enough times of that, and the dog makes the
connection....but then the discomfort/anxiety wasn't acute in those dogs in
the first place. When its a deeper level of anxiety, I've seen the greatest
successes with desensitization. They often have to be maintained as well,
but it is so much less stressful on the dog (even if its more stressful on
the owner to accomplish), and the opportunities to create positive
associations are much greater.
Ok, I should never try to write more than 2 sentences without having had my
coffee. Hope any of this made sense.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Put me in the thumbs-UP column. And I disagree with you that his
>flooding techniques would produce only temporary relief. At least the
>ones that I've seen him use.
Anyone want to discuss the specific example[s] of flooding they've
actually observed Millan using on his show?
Can I see a show of hands?
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Suja
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message:
I am kind of neutral on him. He clearly has decent dog skills, and has
excellent people skills, which is often what it takes to make people really
listen. He is absolutely correct in identifying lack of exercise and
leadership as some of the primary causes of behavior problems in the dogs.
Beyond that, I have disagreed with some of his methodology, believe that
they really do need to show the extent of the work done instead of
portraying him as some kind of miracle worker, and show the real dangers
behind what would happen if someone without serious dog skills were to apply
some of his methods.
Suja
jav...@yahoo.com
APDT president.
---
(cross posted with permission)
Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding &
Correcting
Common Dog Problems
By Cesar Millan, with Melissa Jo Peltier
Harmony Books, 320 pp., 2006; $24.95
Reviewed by Pat Miller
Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the discerning
reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The book's strength is as
an autobiography of National Geographic's TV dog-trainer star, Cesar
Millan. If you're curious about how Millan got where he is today,
this book will tell you. If you're looking for significant help
training your dog, however, look elsewhere.
Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-and
consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an
interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr.
Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts
University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My
College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic
Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
offering instead broad generalizations about projecting
"calm-assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling
"calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8,
he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His
"Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his ... condition him to get quietly off
the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."
Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to
accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy.
Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically
incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To
dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and
follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He
even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow
him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs
who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
building.
In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of
dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his
"dominance ritual"; this technique-forcibly rolling a dog on his
side or back and holding him there-is considered by many to be a
dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It
long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on
the science of behavior and learning.
Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk
about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is
fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term
success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and
complex approach than simply asserting dominance.
Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan
refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show
who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less
than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding
confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has
watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing
stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.
Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a
concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description
of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his pack of dogs
every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern California,
followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at
a time, on the streets around his training center.
One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the
dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six
hours a day exercising their dogs? How many can project
"calm-assertive energy"? The danger of Cesar's Way is that it
assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a
smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy.
In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life,
where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are solidly built on
a sturdy foundation and an understanding of how behavior really works.
Handsome Jack Morrison
<el...@DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote:
[]
>sure there are good aspects of what he says- treat your dogs like
>dogs, the way you act/feel (ie your "energy" *eyeroll*) affects your
>dog's behavior, the root of much problem behavior is not enough
>exercise- but that's nothing ground-breaking.
I've seen maybe 6-7 episodes. I don't see a lot of dog *training*
going on, but from what I understand the show to be about, it's, "I
rehabilitate dogs. I train people." That's his shtick. And I think he
does a pretty good job of it.
And I agree, there's nothing ground-breaking about what he does.
But I think that having a show like this reach the masses, well, that
*is* ground-breaking, and it just might have a positive effect on the
folks out there who might recognize *themselves* in the folks and
families he "trains" on his show.
It surely can't hurt.
And his results appear to speak for themselves.
I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, or what a follow-up
study of how the dogs are doing after, say, 6 months, would reveal.
So...from the shows I've seen so far, I'm sticking with the thumbs-UP.
PS: I watched one show, where the family's children (I'm guessing
about 10-12 year old) just wouldn't shut up. They actually ruled the
roost. They talked over Millan. They talked over their parents. They
were loud and obnoxious brats. During one of their loud outbursts, the
camera panned over to Millan and it caught him rolling his eyes. He
was a *lot* more tolerant of that kind of behavior than I would have
been, even for a couple hundred bucks an hour.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
jav...@yahoo.com
Judith Althouse wrote:
> I am not
> familiar with the term flooding
I'm sure someone has a better definition, but it's conquering a fear by
intense and overwhelming exposure to the source of the fear. My
experiece with it in dogs is one of 3 results: 1) reduced fear within
the session but equal or greater fear at subsequent exposure, 2)
transference of the fear to a different trigger, or 3) temporary relief
with eventual return of the fear at a lower level. It's usually used
with fear issues, but also for things like dog-dog aggression, like
the Bite Class model where aggressive dogs are turned loose together,
muzzled.
Lynn K.
Paula
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:52:58 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Put me in the thumbs-UP column. And I disagree with you that his
>>flooding techniques would produce only temporary relief. At least the
>>ones that I've seen him use.
>
>Anyone want to discuss the specific example[s] of flooding they've
>actually observed Millan using on his show?
>
>Can I see a show of hands?
I'd like to read that discussion, even though the one episode of the
show I saw didn't have anything to do with flooding so I couldn't add
to the discussion.
Handsome Jack Morrison
[]
>Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-and
>consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an
>interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr.
>Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts
>University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My
>College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic
>Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
That figures. It might have a deleterious effect on all this "purely
positive" training nonsense.
Which is basically what the APDT organization is all about.
>Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
>offering instead broad generalizations about projecting
>"calm-assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling
>"calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8,
>he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His
>"Rules of the House" include:
>"Wake up on your terms, not his ... condition him to get quietly off
>the bed if he wakes before you do."
>"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
>"Don't allow out-of-control barking."
>
>Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to
>accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy.
I haven't read the book, but he certainly does this on his show.
>Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically
>incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To
>dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and
>follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He
>even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow
>him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs
>who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
>building.
I wouldn't call that hubris. Maybe confidence? But I take my hat off
to him for wanting to try.
On the other hand, from what I know of the Whipple story, Hera
probably should have been put down.
>In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of
>dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his
>"dominance ritual"; this technique-forcibly rolling a dog on his
>side or back and holding him there-is considered by many to be a
>dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It
>long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on
>the science of behavior and learning.
It definitely is a dangerous practice, because few trainers know how
and when to employ it properly. And it should fall out of disfavor.
And it has.
>Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk
>about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is
>fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term
>success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and
>complex approach than simply asserting dominance.
I think this is mostly the typical aversion to the word dominance by
the "purely positive, " touchy-feely crowd. If Millan ever asked for
my advise, I'd tell him to lose the word dominance altogether and talk
to them about the importance of being your dog's LEADER.
>Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan
>refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show
>who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less
>than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding
>confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has
>watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing
>stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.
I totally disagree with that. I watched that episode, and *I* didn't
see any signs of stress. But for sake of argument, let's say that the
dog *was* a little stressed, okay? So what? What dog gets through life
without some stress? Teaching a dog how to cope with stress is what
good dog trainers do. For example, field-trial training can be very
stressful, yet field-trial dogs learn to *thrive* on it.
There was even a follow-up episode, where he visited the teacher (and
her GD) in her classroom, on some anniversary, I think. And the dog
was about as normal as I've ever seen a GD act on slippery floors. But
there was no hesitation whatsoever when his owner walked him up and
down the floor. The teacher was tickled pink.
I think Miller is way off base here. I think she's way off base about
a lot of things, of course.
>Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a
>concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description
>of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his pack of dogs
>every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern California,
>followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at
>a time, on the streets around his training center.
Again, that's his shtick. Why throw the baby out with the bath water?
>One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the
>dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six
>hours a day exercising their dogs?
Very few. But I've never heard him suggest that everyone *has* to do
that. The 45 minutes of walking their dog daily? Yes.
And that's what those owners should be doing, at last the examples
that I observed.
>How many can project
>"calm-assertive energy"?
How many can project "calm assertive energy" if they never get to see
what it looks like???
>The danger of Cesar's Way is that it
>assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a
>smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy.
Most of the episodes I've seen were susceptible to "quick fixes." Not
every behavior modification requires months and months of intensive
therapy (as many behaviorists would like you to believe).
For example, the whirling dervish of a dog that spun around in circles
on a walk, every time a car or pedestrian went by.
Solution: Don't let him do that!
He showed the owner how to easily preempt those spins with
distractions and proper leash handling.
Presto! No more whirling dervish.
Why would anyone ever want to make that anymore complicated than
necessary???
I just don't get it.
>In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life,
>where solutions are often not quick and easy,
But sometimes they are!
Thanks for the info, Lynn!
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
TaraG
"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
> We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
> seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
> dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
> dogs' behavior improves!
Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.
Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar to
the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the dog,
and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when a
professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
what you're doing!!"
The trainer had the presence of mind to maintain her focus solely on the dog
she was working with, rather than lose the training moment, but she was
seriously tempted to go smack the walker in the head.
I've had plenty of people try to interrupt my classes to tell me I'm
teaching something "wrong" because "that's not how The Dog Whisperer teaches
it". Thankfully, their own dogs are rarely well trained enough to cause my
students to question how we're doing things.
I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training, but
the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his ego,
and help for those he meets with in person.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
>
>> We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
>> seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
>> dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
>> dogs' behavior improves!
>
>Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.
>
>Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
>years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
>dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
>years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar to
>the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
>reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the dog,
>and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when a
>professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
>WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
>what you're doing!!"
Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
not blame the walker instead?
<sigh>
[...]
>I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,
And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.
>the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his ego,
>and help for those he meets with in person.
Aah.
The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.
<sigh>
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
TaraG
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:m9pva2tilaomdnqsq...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:00:30 GMT, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
>>
>>> We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
>>> seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
>>> dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
>>> dogs' behavior improves!
>>
>>Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.
>>
>>Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
>>years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
>>dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
>>years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar
>>to
>>the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
>>reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the
>>dog,
>>and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when
>>a
>>professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
>>WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
>>what you're doing!!"
>
> Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
> not blame the walker instead?
Not everyone sees things as black and white as you assume they do.
Please point out where I said there was anger at him? Otherwise, you're just
exercising your strawman muscle again.
I clearly stated that any "anger" felt was, in fact, directed towards the
walker. Nice spin, though.
> <sigh>
Oh whatever.
> [...]
>>I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,
>
> And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.
I'm not being "spiteful"....though you've already made up your mind and
flexing your strawman muscles, so no point in trying to convince you
otherwise.
>>the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his
>>ego,
>>and help for those he meets with in person.
>
> Aah.
>
> The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.
Not really. There have been dog training shows that I really liked. Not
many, but when I like one I recommend it wholeheartedly.
But keep on spinning anything that doesn't mesh with what you think. It
suits your temperament, Jack.
> <sigh>
Again, whatever.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:13:06 GMT, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net>
wrote:
[]
>> Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
>> not blame the walker instead?
>
>Not everyone sees things as black and white as you assume they do.
What exactly does that mean, as it relates to what I actually said?
>Please point out where I said there was anger at him? Otherwise, you're just
>exercising your strawman muscle again.
Could it have been...let's see, the fact that your post reeked of
indignant sarcasm directed at Millan, etc?
It's not necessary for someone to say that they're angry, for them to
act and sound and be angry, you know.
Man has "evolved" (heh) to know how to quickly size up the intentions
of other animals by observing their body language, reading between the
lines they write, listening to the sounds they make, etc. Now, if we
could just do that with women, we'd be all set. :)
And if you're not actually angry at Millan (and his "complicating
effect"), I stand corrected.
So. Are you? :)
>I clearly stated that any "anger" felt was, in fact, directed towards the
>walker. Nice spin, though.
>
>> <sigh>
>
>Oh whatever.
Maybe it wasn't as clear as it could have been?
>> [...]
>>>I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,
>>
>> And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.
>
>I'm not being "spiteful"....though you've already made up your mind and
>flexing your strawman muscles, so no point in trying to convince you
>otherwise.
You should look up the definition of straw man again. Apparently
you've forgotten it. Again.
>>>the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his
>>>ego,
>>>and help for those he meets with in person.
>>
>> Aah.
>>
>> The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.
>Not really. There have been dog training shows that I really liked. Not
>many, but when I like one I recommend it wholeheartedly.
For example?
>But keep on spinning anything that doesn't mesh with what you think. It
>suits your temperament, Jack.
>
>> <sigh>
>
>Again, whatever.
During any given week, how many times do you use the word "whatever"?
5,000?
10,000?
Okay.
50,000?
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
Judith Althouse wrote:
> Thumbs up or Thumbs down???
the ces is a dog abusin punk thug coward, a Nazi / Fascist.
The EVIDENCE is in your own dogs. We can PROVE or
DISPROVE EVERYTHING RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NHOWE,
if you care to put your FEELINS aside and get to the FACTS
and overcome your innate fearful / abusive behaviors.
UNLESS you think the ces has PROVEN the EXXXPERTS WRONG, Judith:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual <{): ~ ) >
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> I love him.
DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS, Judith.
> He is my idol, my hero, my guru.
He's a dog abuser, a punk and a coward. His "dog training" methods
are the same as the street gang mentality he learned RESPECT from.
Perhaps you like him on accHOWENT of he reminds you of your daddy?
Abuse / fear aggression AIN'T a genetic problem, it's a SPIRITUAL
problem,
passed on from WON generatiHOWEN of abuser to the next, like the 100th
monkey washin fruit in the stream. After a while it's not just NORMAL,
it's
OBLIGATORY.
To do otherWIZE would be DISRESPECTFUL of your parental teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear,
Hate, Reflex, Self Will,
Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment,
Guilt, Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness,
Aversion, Attraction, Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion,
Change, Permanence, Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition,
And
Parental / ReligiHOWES / Societal Conditioning.
YOU ARE THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ' ~ ) >
> i want to be him when I grow up :)
Well then, you're too stupid to live so long.
> so, whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
Your own dogs behavior problems are reflected in
your mentors insidiHOWES methods:
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
With all due respect, shove 'm both up your arse an walk on your
elbows.
> Be Free,
That's curiHOWES, comin from a Nazi.
> Judy
Here's a little of your own posted case history and
a couple of REVIEWS of the ces in action:
Judith Althouse wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I read thru all of the posts just knowing that someone else
> had already addressed my problems but if so I overlooked it.
The QUESTION was "alpha dogs".
The PROBLEM is FEAR AGGRESSION in a ALPHA BITCH HOWEsHOWEld <{): ~ ) >
> I have had 2 of my dogs since they were a year old.
> They are now 13 and 14.
The average lifespan of abused dogs here is 9-10 years old.
> The older one a spayed female Border Collie mix. The 13
> year old a Black Lab, 15 months ago I introduced a year
> old Pit Bul/Lab mix to the pack.
NO PROBLEMO.
> He is a neutered male approx 2 years old now....
Surgical sexual mutilation CAUSES insecurity and aggression.
> Everything has been rolling right along.
INDEED.
> Several months ago another Pit Bull joined the family
> although he has remained outside. He is not neutered
> yet and though he is very mellow I just feel like I am
> pushing my luck to introduce him to the household.
Dog trainin AIN'T LUCK. "Luck is for SUCKERS," The Puppy
Wizard's DADDY <{}; ~ ) >
> He is not housebroken
That's IDIOCY. HOWEsbreakin is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks
of age. It's a dog's most imperative terrortorial imperative after
SURVIVAL. There's ONLY TWO *(2) reasons HOWE COME a
dog would have HOWEsbreakin problems. AnyWON who got
a dog with HOWEsbreakin problems got EITHER a SICK DOG
OR a UNHAPPY DOG <{): ~ ( >
Perhaps you better take your "unHOWEsbroken" dog to the vet
on accHOWENT of we KNOW he's HAPPY livin in your HOWES.
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> and most likely has spent his life on a chain.
That's IRRELEVENT.
> Ok here is the problem...
YUP:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Jubal Early the Pit Bull/Lab mix recently attacked
> Buck (my old Lab) 3 times in one day.
Dogs ONLY attack when they're AFRAID. ALL AGGRESSION
IS FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
LIKE THIS:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> It was not the most vicious attacks I have ever seen but
> could have easily escalated. Buck came out of it with a
> scrape on his ear. Buck just laid around for a day. I
> am not sure if it was because he was sore or because he
> was broken. Of course I have kept Jubal Early seperated
> or on a leash since then.
Seems with all your "KNOWLEDGE" learned from the ces,
you shouldn't have this problem. Your dogs are not
"calm and assertive" they're AFRAID, on accHOWENT of
you're a DOG ABSUER, not a calm assertive leader, but
a NAZI, like the ces. OtherWIZE, your dogs would be
FRIENDLY and SAFE and SECURE.
HOWEver, THEY AIN'T.
> Buck is definitely afraid of Jubal,
Well then, what's THAT say to your "CALM ASSERTIVE" energy?
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> the sound of him makes Buck anxious.
Well then, perhaps you should practice the ces's "SECRET S-HOWEND",
eh Judith? You know, the WON the ces makes when he got to assert
his calm assertive energy? You know, when he grabs the victim by
his throat an tells IT to be CALM and ASSERTIVE and IT WON'T GET
CHOKED someMOORE <{}; ~ ) >
> Prior to this incident Jubal E steered clear of Buck if
> a toy would roll over to Buck he would grab the toy and
> run for his life, even jump over the couch at times to
> avoid passing Buck in a close hall way.
What happened to your "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY", Judith?
> I must admit to having made some mistakes with Jubal E.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> He is young and active and he is fun to play with
> plus I did not have complete control of his handling.
You mean you couldn't jerk and choke IT and run IT arHOWEND
the city for an HOWER twice a day as INSTRUCTED by the ces?
> Suffice it to say Jubal was allowed to run the show.
You mean, he was ALPHA? The so called "ALPHA" is ALWAYS
the MOST FEARFUL, like the alpha trainer, Judith. THAT'S
HOWE COME the ces is a COWARD, Judith. ONLY A COWARD would
do what he does to dogs and try to get HOWET callin NAZISM,
dog trainin.
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> He became the Pack Leader over humans and dogs alike.
That's sheer idiocy.
> My theory is that Jubal has just taken over as the Alpha Dog.
You mean he's HOWETA CON-TROLL, Judith? PERHAPS it's your
THEORY that's caused your dog behavior problems? PERHAPS
if you worked within ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC BEHAVIOR SCIENCE
you wouldn't be GUSSIN HOWE COME your dog is AFRAID enough
to attack his HOWEsmate UNDER YOUR CON-TROLL, Judith?
> The part I do NOT understand is why Jubal Early is still
> on the attack since Buck is not offering any opposition.
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENT of your dog is AFRAID, Judith.
HERE'S HOWE COME YOUR DOG IS AFRAID, Judith:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> I can't say he is submissive.
RIGHT. It's SURVIVAL INSTINCT. You've frightened your dog to death.
> He doesn't get a chance to be.
Naaaah? DO TELL???
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Terrified would be more like it....
INDEED? Whatever happened to your "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY", Judith?
> I have gone over the incidents a million times
ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR, Judith. The SAME FEAR which fuels
you and your Nazi punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case pals who jerk choke shock
bribe crate intimidate surgically sexually mutilate and
murder innocent defenseless dumb critters <{): ~ ( >
THAT'S HOWE COME DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS, Judith.
> and for the life of me I cannot put my finger on
> anything in particular triggering the incident...
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> There was a time when Lady (my oldest dog was the Alpha dog
You mean when she was most afraid.
> and controlled Buck) until a few years ago and
> she gracefully took a back seat to him.
That's curiHOWES. Males in nature ALWAYS defer to the female,
it's SURVIVAL INSTINCT at it's beast, dog lovers <{): ~ ) >
> Somebody, please help?
Here ya go, Judith:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Do you think things will ever settle down here?
All depends. Do you want to continue to be an abuser?
> All of my dogs are rescued dogs that just came to me.
Yeah. Rescued.
> As much as I love the 2 new additions. I will not see
> my poor old Dog Buck be terrified and hurt by anyone.
You mean, like HOWE he HAS BEEN, despite your "CALM ASSERTIVE" energy?
> You can imagine what it is like, constantly
> shuffling dogs and fearing disaster.
Yeah. It'd be NORMAL for a incompetent dog abusin coward.
> This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.
Naaah?
> I am sorry to be so wordy, but I was trying to give you
> the straight scoop so hopefully someone could offer some
> advice.
Yeah? Then HOWE COME you "OVERLOOKED" your ALPHALPHA THEORY PROBLEM?
> I have always had dogs.
Let's get sumpthin straight, dog abuser. DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT
POST HERE abHOWETS. LIARS DOG ABSUERS COWARDS and PATHETIC
LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG
TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES post here when they want PERMISSION
to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER their own innocent defenseless
dumb critters, Judith.
HOWE COME DO YOU WANT TO HURT YOUR DOGS, Judith?
> I have owned a show dog, obedience dogs, (Dobermans)
Oh, so you've already got a very long case history
of animal abuse and alphalphal dysfunction thinkin.
> so I am not a novice to the dog world.
But you're lookin for advice to HURT your dog.
> Somebody please HELP us...
No Judith, you need to heelp yourself.
> Thanks for reading this.....
You're a victim of abuse, as are your children and dogs.
> Be Free,
ONLY PARENTS FEAR and HATE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard even MOORE than the professional trainers,
university behaviorists and veterinary malpracticioners whom
HE has IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED <{) ; ~ ) >
> Judy
Oprah Winfrey's Dog Problems
Lisa Radosta -Huntley DVM
Resident, Behavioral Medicine
Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital of the
University of Pennsylvania
I am sorry to report that Cesar Millan is going to be featured
on an upcoming episode of Oprah
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/goss...-262036c.html).
Pretty much everything that EVER appears on Oprah becomes HUGE,
so I am very disheartened to say the least. Best case scenario
is that this appearance puts him on the radar of the positive
dog training, animal welfare, and/or animal rights communities
resulting in a critical mass of people expressing their opposition
to his methods.
Unfortunately, in the U.S., even bad press winds up being
good press somehow, so it will be interesting to see how
this plays out.
Lisa Radosta -Huntley DVM
Resident, Behavioral Medicine
Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital of the
University of Pennsylvania Oprah link -
http://www.oprah.com/email/tows/tows...uestid=3240019
Please do whatever you can...
Pat Miller
Hi,
This message was originally sent to me by Kathy Kruger. I am
forwarding it because if we don't act now, Cesar Millan and
his methods will be household names by Monday afternoon at 5 pm.
Anyone who is interested, please pass this on to your own list
serves and act quickly. I have already emailed and the letter
that we sent to National Geographic is being overnight Fed Ex'd.
Lisa
__________________
Cesar's Way:
The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding
& Correcting Common Dog Problems
By Cesar Millan, with Melissa Jo Peltier
Harmony Books, 320 pp., 2006; $24.95
Reviewed by Pat Miller for The Bark
Cesar Millan Book
Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the
discerning reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The
book's strength is as an autobiography of National Geographic's
TV dog-trainer star, Cesar Millan. If you're curious about
how Millan got where he is today, this book will tell you.
If you're looking for significant help training your dog,
however, look elsewhere.
Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-
and consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation.
In an interview published in the New York Times in February
of this year, Dr. Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal
Behavior Clinic at Tufts University 's Cummings School of
Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My College thinks it is a
travesty.
We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them
they have put dog training back 20 years."
Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
offering instead broad generalizations about projecting "calm-
assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling "calm,
submissive energy" in your dog.
For example, in Chapter 8, he offers "Simple Tips for Living
Happily with Your Dog." His "Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his... condition him to get
quietly off the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."
Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he
explain how to accomplish these things, other than by
using calm-assertive energy.
Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "
politically incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance
theory, stating, "To dogs, there are only two positions in
a relationship: leader and follower.
Dominant and submissive.
It's either black or white."
He even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of
authorities to allow him to rehabilitate Hera, one of
the two notorious Presa Canario dogs who killed Diane
Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
building.
In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in
terms of dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha
roll as part of his "dominance ritual"; this technique-
forcibly rolling a dog on his side or back and holding him
there-is considered by many to be a dangerous practice based
on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior.
It long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods
are based on the science of behavior and learning.
Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers
talk about behavior, and generally agree that status in
social groups is fluid and contextual, not black or white.
Truly effective and long-term success in behavior modification
requires a far more studied and complex approach than simply
asserting dominance.
Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely.
Millan refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on
his TV show who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims
that with less than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence,
Kane was striding confidently down the slick hallway.
Every trainer I know who has watched that segment notes the
dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing stress signals: head
and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.
Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior,
a concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a
description of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with
his pack of dogs every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of
Southern California, followed by afternoons spent rollerblading
with those same dogs, 10 at a time, on the streets around his
training center.
One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it
gives the dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog
owners can spend six hours a day exercising their dogs?
How many can project "calm-assertive energy"? The danger of
Cesar's Way is that it assures owners that quick fixes and
easy answers lie in the hands of a smiling man with the elusive
calm-assertive energy.
In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity
of life, where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are
solidly built on a sturdy foundation and an understanding of
how behavior really works.
Recommended Reading from 4Paws University
A Tough-Love Dog Whisperer Spurs Some Yelps
Producer Sues TV's Dog Whisperer
Cesar's Way:
The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding
and Correcting Common Dog Problems
Amazon.com
"Whisper" softly and carry a big stick?!,
May 8, 2006
Reviewer: Sympawtico Dog Training, LLC -
I recently compiled a list of suggested reading materials
for my dog training clients. Cesar's Way is not on it.
His methods are based on out-dated and scientifically unfounded
theories that too often place the trainer at odds with their dog,
compromising the safety of both - not to mention eroding the dog-
human bond.
With all of the other good books on positive reinforcement dog
training on the market, the serious student will do far better
to spend their money elsewhere. Don't settle for "whispering";
look to behaviorists and trainers who loudly and clearly offer
sound advice based on good understanding of learning theory
and behavior science: Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell, Jean
Donaldson, Pat Miller.
Their methods work, they foster communication and cooperation
between the species - and they won't harm you or your dog.
===============
Nothing new or useful,
May 7, 2006
Reviewer: joyousdog
Milan's methods may seem new and revolutionary to anyone
who has no experience in the world of dogs, but they are
not. In fact, most have long-since been deserted by dog
trainers who understand how learning really happens.
It is as if someone had achieved great popularity pushing
a fabulous new invention called the typewriter, embracing
the long-dead theory that "cold" mothers cause autism in
their children, or advocating smacking kindergarten kids
over the knuckles with a ruler as a magical way to teach
them the alphabet.
Nothing about it seems so horrible, to someone who is innocent
of the history of the subject at hand, and it is neatly packaged
to seem like a method. But a little knowledge easily shows the
flaws in it.
His calm, controlled demeanor is simply common sense to anyone
who works with animals, or, for that matter, anyone who teaches
anything. You could probably get that advice from a local trainer
in your town, or even an excellent parent or elementary school
teacher.
And, many trainers agree that exercise is good for dogs -
- that's hardly revolutionary. However, it is not a magical
cure-all for difficult dogs.
The rest of what he advocates, although it may seem to have
a philosophy and some organization, is just a mish-mash of
techniques with little logic behind them.
He has his set routines, and often does not notice that things
like "flooding" -- forcing a dog into a situation that it fears -
- is shutting it down with stress, not calming it down and easing
its fear.
The dog-human relationship need not include dominance rituals -
- dogs know we are not dogs. The "be alpha" stuff came from a
small bit of research on wolves, decades ago, that has long
since been supplanted, and has little bearing on pet dogs.
Life has made us the leaders -- we have control of the doors,
the food, the car, the toys, and everything else a dog wants -
- it is quite easy to change dogs' behavior, as long as we use
those things.
Our larger brains and some patience are the best tools to
train a dog. Actions like controlling the environment to
keep a dog out of trouble, figuring out what it finds
rewarding, and reinforcing behaviors you do want, are far
more effective, pleasant, and likely to build a good
relationship than Milan's techniques.
Check out the works of Karen Pryor, Pat Miller or Melissa
Alexander for better ideas about teaching, and Suzanne
Clothier, Ray and Lorna Coppinger, Jean Donaldson, or
Patricia McConnell for better insight into dogs. For
free advice, try the Clickersolutions.com site.
Dogs can learn self-control, voluntary compliance with our
wishes -- they need not be dominated, just taught. I want
my dogs actions to say "I'll do that!" not "I give up."
===================
A sad day in dog land...,
May 6, 2006
Reviewer: Barbara Davis "BADDogsInc" (Corona, CA)
If you want to take a ride to the 70s in a time machine, this
is the vehicle for you. Do your dog a favor, though, and leave
him right where he is, since Millan's 'philosophy' of dog/human
relationship management really won't be doing him much good.
If you're a big fan of the old school's outmoded alpha rolls,
or truly believe your dog is trying to dominate you while he's
cruising the counter looking for cookies, then you'll probably
enjoy this book a great deal.
If you do choose to buy this, you'll get a lot of the author's
biography and his own personal 'science' (that bears little or
no resemblance to any accepted science in the realms of learning
theory, dog training or behavior).
What you WON'T get is much information on dog training, or much
useful advice on how to fix any kind of dog behavior or dog/human
relationship problems.
Complex issues like separation anxiety rate a couple of paragraphs,
heavily vested in making sure the dog is exercised to exhaustion at
all times.
While I'm sure a dog that's physically depleted all the time is
much easier to handle, I'm not sure how many of us actually have
the ability to incorporate 6 hours of daily strenuous dog exercise
into our already crowded lives.
And besides, what role does an exhausted, 4-legged
zombie fill in your family circle?
The human/dog bond has evolved for thousands of years as a
richly textured relationship deserving of a great deal more
consideration than Millan's 'fast-food' analysis would suggest.
Your money would be better spent elsewhere...
=============
Customer Reviews
Depends on what you want
July 7, 2006
Reviewer: Dog Owner (Lake Mary, FL USA)
If you want to see Mr. Milan demonstrate his personal rapport
with animals, this DVD will fill the bill. However, if you are
seeking advice and instruction on how to overcome aggression
in your pet, this DVD will not be of much help.
The DVD is really nothing but an infommercial praising Mr.
Milan's talents. I seriously doubt that the dogs he works
with in the DVD maintain their non-aggressive behavior after
he leaves.
The strategies he uses, such as having the aggressive dog
walk beside his non-aggressive pack dog, are not practical
for the average dog owner.
If someone were going to hire Mr. Milan as a personal dog
trainer, this item would certainly serve as a recommendation,
but it is woefully lacking as step-by-step instruction on how
to overcome aggression in a dog.
-------------------------
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"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:OwRrg.1087$wZ.325@trndny01...
>
> I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,
> but the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for
> his ego, and help for those he meets with in person.
>
Well if nothing else the show and its success has gotten people thinking
more about how they choose to interact with their dogs, and that's a good
thing.
I don't view it as a training show- it's a reality show. But many, many of
my clients mention that it hadn't entered their heads that they even *could*
change undesireable behaviors until they watched the show.
i think that many of the comments he makes to owners are quite valid- the
ones who see their dogs as babies, or use the dogs to negotiate power within
the human relationships in the house. "Laypeople" normally don't think of
their dogs in those terms and bringing that to the attention of the viewing
public is good.
Is it going to help them solve real problems?
No.
But if it gets them thinking that maybe they need to look into solving
problems instead of complaining about them, or locking the dogs outside,
then I think it is worth something- as reality shows go.
--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
<mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote:
>On 2006-07-08 13:00:30 -0400, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> said:
>
>> I've had plenty of people try to interrupt my classes to tell me I'm
>> teaching something "wrong" because "that's not how The Dog Whisperer
>> teaches it". Thankfully, their own dogs are rarely well trained enough
>> to cause my students to question how we're doing things.
>
>I see that as a teaching opportunity. Trainers are as different as
>gourmet chefs. They all have the same basic tools and ingredients at
>hand, but each has a different technique.
Yes, they're at hand, but some trainers choose to use only one "pot"
or only "sugar" as a seasoning. I.e., just R+.
That is, they don't use *all* of the tools or ingredients that are
available to them (R-, P+, R-, prong collars, choke collars,
e-collars, etc.).
>At least you have people who are actually inspired to:
>1) watch a TV show about training dogs
>2) take a class with a real live trainer
Yup.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
jav...@yahoo.com
montana wildhack wrote:
> We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers,
I can't say that I've ever had any fallout from his show with a class
or client. But I have been concerned with a couple of rescue people I
know who seem to have taken his show as justification to automatically
jump to rolling a dog or taking him off his front paws at the slightest
sign of resistance, when a less forceful correction would have been
more appropriate. Millan is giving a seminar in my area in August,
sold out a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to be interested to see the
makeup of the audience.
Lynn K.
pfoley
love his calm/assertive technique. I also believe in treating a dog like a
dog and not a human. I believe he is right that dogs need exercise everyday
to be happy and act normal.
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5351-44A...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
TaraG
"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> teaching something "wrong" because "that's not how The Dog Whisperer
>> teaches it". Thankfully, their own dogs are rarely well trained enough to
>> cause my students to question how we're doing things.
>
> chefs. They all have the same basic tools and ingredients at hand, but
> each has a different technique.
>
> 1) watch a TV show about training dogs
> 2) take a class with a real live trainer
I must not have been clear. These are generally people that walk up to me
during our outdoor classes, interrupt my class, and then proceed to tell me
how I'm teaching it all wrong.
Not really a teaching opportunity, nor have I come across many who watch his
show and *then* take a class.
Tara
pfoley
rewards dogs only when they are calm/submissive and behaving. That would be
a terrible time to give the dog a cookie. Even if he turned away from the
bad behavior at that time; I would wait until he calmed down and was
obedient to reward him. I think Cesar is definitely correct about this.
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:OwRrg.1087$wZ.325@trndny01...
>
TaraG
"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IAUrg.1950$vO....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Well, I agree with him; why would you reward a dog for bad behavior.
> Cesar
> rewards dogs only when they are calm/submissive and behaving. That would
> be
> a terrible time to give the dog a cookie. Even if he turned away from the
> bad behavior at that time; I would wait until he calmed down and was
> obedient to reward him. I think Cesar is definitely correct about this.
And if you had the gall to interrupt me while I was working with a dog to
tell me (with all your experience) what I am doing "wrong", I wouldn't be
nearly as polite as my colleague was.
You have zero information about the dog in question and about the different
ways of handling aggression problems, and yet based on a TV show (that isn't
really teaching you much about *how* to train a dog, BTW, since as others
have stated its really a Reality Show), you think its alright to asses
someone else's method? That's why I have a problem with how he presents his
information. I know its not his fault that a large portion of his audience
is looking for easy answers and quick fixes, but its not like its a
surprise, either.
He's an excellent handler, and I don't doubt his training and teaching
skills, but I think shows like that can create as many problems as they
solve in terms of viewer expectations and interpretations.
Tara
pfoley
doing it another way. And, how do you know that I am not experienced with
dog handling or that I don't know what I am talking about? You should not
assume that.
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5JUrg.1223$wZ.1113@trndny01...
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Judith Althouse wrote:
> Thanks ladies for your opinion.
You mean paula and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn?
It's common usenet courteHOWESY to quote a few words
from the post you're responding to so's folks can
follow the discussion <{): ~ ) > OtherWIZE, you'd
be not referencin an TOP POSTIN to boot, a lowly
life condition at beast <{): ~ ( >
> I would be very interested in one person's review of the book.
the ces is a dog abusing coward who hurts and
intimidates dogs and fools people into thinkin
dogs like being intimidated. He gets bitten
frequently and recommends J.Q. Pubic NOT try
his "training" methods witHOWET the heelp of
a EXXXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL TRAINER, like
hisself.
> It is my current favorite book.
Ther's reasons for everything, Judith.
> I am not familiar with the term flooding?
It's kinda like what The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy
And Horsey Wizard does when HE'S rehabilitating deathly
behavior problems. the ces calls it "RED ZONE" cases.
LIKE THIS:
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)," lynn k.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard doesn't
classify behaviors to diagnose HOWE COME a critter DOES
what IT does, on accHOWENT of:
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
IOW, your dogs' behaviors tell the tail on you:
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> Could you help me out Lynn?
lynn MURDERS DOGS LIKE YOU GOT:
From: Lynn Kosmakos
Date: Fri, Nov 3 2000 1:41 am
Email: Lynn Kosmakos <lkosma...@home.com>
Lori wrote:
> There is no TEMPERMENT too good to ruin OR too bad to save.
> The dog's heart & soul become reflex reaction to it's treatment.
Lori, I sincerely wish that were true. (the too bad to save part)
There is innate temperament that is not shaped by treatment.
The dogs our rescue gets from horrible abuse cases quickly proves that.
OTOH, I also see dogs that have never had a single triggering
incident who cannot be saved. I've got such a client right now,
a 9 month old GSD who we've been fighting to save for months.
He's been seen by Jean Donaldson and Leslie Nelson and a slew
of others, and has received nothing by loving care all his life.
His littermates are normal, his breeding excellent, and there
was no triggering event or medical cause. As much as it breaks
my heart, the dog cannot be saved.
Lynn K.
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
Looks like she's proven Corson an Pavlov wrong, eh, Judith?
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
> Certainly I understand he doesn't just show up on the scene and fix
> the dogs and their owners on one edited show.
You mean like HOWE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits
End Dog Training Method Manual Students do from settin right here,
stark
ravin nekkid on accHOWENT of trainin dogs is EZ if you simply DO EVERY-
THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE these dog muggers
do it <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
"Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote:
No, the dog learned that I would hold still
the second she began to pull. She would pull
to go where *she* wanted.
Well if she wanted to stop and go in another
direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard..
she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop
walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't
enough slack on her lead she would just pull me.
Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl
heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go"
and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i
looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes
waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission
to go again.
I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her
stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie.
I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose
pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective..
we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i
followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them...
and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only
when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was
better than what she wanted.. which was not often.
She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she
could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry...
he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me
his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the
pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help
at 10pm on a sunday night.
One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after
the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag
down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and
never had tension.
two men were acrossed the street and she walked right
by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us.
And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he
even looked like he was going near my husband or kids..
is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing
gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside..
actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in
the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since
she's 19 months old and has never had a litter.
She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's
dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by
and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting
to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box
and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half.
She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat.
---------------
> I assume the general public gets it too....
INDEED?
> but I like his style I just need to be more consistent.
INDEEDY!: "REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS".
THAT'S HOWE COME The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard doesn't use bribery fear force intimidation surgical
sexual mutilation avoidance and so called rewards.
> Be Free,
"The only thing necessary for the triumph
of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
> Judy
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:
I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when
I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."
*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!
Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!
Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
TaraG
response was "well, I agree with him. Why would you do that?"
a) there are LOTS of reasons why someone would do that (one reason I assumed
you were inexperienced)
b) a reward isn't the same thing as a "cookie" (also a reason I assumed you
were inexperienced)
c) there is no excuse for interrupting a lesson based on nothing more than a
difference of opinion on method (which you acknowledge you would never do)
If you are not an inexperienced handler, then I apologize. But your
interpretation of the small bit of info I gave does suggest that you are
definitely less knowledgeable than a trainer with a few decades of hands-on
experience. My issue was with someone with no experience thinking it was ok
to interject their opinion into an active handling lesson.
"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fTUrg.5084$ye3....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Alison
> A definite thumbs up for me. I have his book and I watch him every week.
I
> love his calm/assertive technique. I also believe in treating a dog like
a
> dog and not a human. I believe he is right that dogs need exercise
everyday
> to be happy and act normal.>>>
I would think nearly every trainer/behaviourist in the world would say a
dog needs exercise
every day. It's common sense.
As to treating a dog like a dog, what *is* a dog? If he is Alpha rolling
dogs then it sounds like he thinks wolves are dogs and setting back dog
training by years :(( Wolves don't Alpha roll other
wolves, the submissive wolves rolls over voluntarily so there is no point
in doing it to a dog.
Alison
pfoley
daily exercise. Putting a dog out in the yard is not exercise; that is
another thing he says that I believe he is right about.
"Alison" <Ali...@SPAMallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4hal5rF...@individual.net...
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
drug crazed dog abusing pathetic lyin mental case,
TaraG wrote:
> "Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message
> news:1houa2dkcrnumi12u...@4ax.com...
> > On 7 Jul 2006 22:03:23 -0700, jav...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >>Thumbs down for me. I disagree with a lot of the techniques he uses.
> >>For example, he often uses flooding to overcome fears, and I believe
> >>flooding produces very temporary relief, at best, and often intensifies
> >>the fear instead of decreasing it.
> >
> > Some of the human research has shown flooding to
> > be very effective for anxiety,
>
> Really? I'd love to see the results of those studies.
They'll be as fascinatin as the results of your "LEAVE IT COMMAND".
> I've never found the results (amazing as they can be)
> anything more than temporary results at best.
Well then, your "therapist" didn't follow the PRECISE
SCIENTIFIC METHOD of EXXXTINGUISHMENT, tarag <{): ~ ) >
> Though my sample group only involves me (I was unintentionally
> flooded with heights, and yes I'm terrified of heights!), a few
> friends who have confronted their inner terrors, and a buttload
> of dogs.
In order to use "flooding" or ANY method you'd first have
to UNDERSTAND THE METHOD otherWIZE you'd be doin sumpthin
OTHER THAN EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION.
And then you'd end up jerkin an chokin an shockin
and lockin the dog in a box and surgically sexually
mutilating and murdering innocent defenseless dumb
critters.
> > but since it is hell on the patient,
Sometimes it drives them INSANE.
> > gradual desensitization still seems to be the preferred method.
You mean YOU GOT NO METHOD other than jerk and choke and
scream "LEAVE IT" as you jerk and choke IT someMOORE <{}: ~ ( >
Oh, and THEN don't forget the cookie.
> > I remember a brand new PhD talking a few years back about
> > how flooding would be the only way desensitization was done
> > in the near future and wondering if she had worked with any
> > real live patients. Aside from the toll it takes on the dog
> > or human to have it flooded with its fear in an intense session
> > instead of exposed gradually over time,
You can't SNEAK UP on painick disorder problems. You got to address
them with an effective proven scientific metho and EXXXTINGUISH
them NEARLY INSTANTLY just like ANY behavior problem <{): ~ ) >
> > I am not sure that dogs would even get the same benefit
> > that humans did.
That's ABSURD. They USE DOGS to do the RESEARCH for humans.
> I've also seen lots of dogs react by learning to become
> anxious about things *associated* with the flooding. Really
> dangerous stuff, IMO.
Of curse. Even a knife settin next to a fork LOOKS innocuHOWES.
HOWEver, in the hands of a drunken drug crazed pathological
lyin dog abusing mental case, it could even be used as a teaspoon,
althogh THAT'S not the FUNCTION of a knife. The fork was there
kinda like the surrogate toy. Makes things FEEL comfey.
> > It seems to me that flooding would work on a more cognitive
> > level whereas desensitization can work on either a cognitive
> > level or an emotional association level or both and still work.
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
> > But I'm just thinking out loud.
Yeah, on accHOWENT of she got the same problems.
> > I would be interested in what you have seen
> > with flooding work with dogs.
BWEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAAA!!!
> When I was flooded,
You didn't know what you was doin.
> I was actually "cured" of me fear of heights....
NOT unless the behavior was deconditioned in three
or four different environments like HOWE it SEZ in
your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizards' 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child,
Kat And Horse Training Method Manual <{}; ~ ) >
So, like those "snake proofin" clinics, the "desensitization"
is ONLY EFFECTIVE when wearing the Ecollar and the snake is
caged. OtherWIZE, the snake will move and trigger the dog to
chase it and he'll get bit.
> for about a month.
By the end of a month you'd figger your "CLASSICAL CONDITIONING"
would have taken effect, wouldn't you, tarag <{}; ~ ) >
> And it wasn't at all cognitive (trust me, cognitive never
> enters the picture when heights are involved). The thing
> I really liked about it was that for the first time in my
> life, I could truly appreciate a beautiful view from a
> mountaintop.
Fear of heights, particularly flying, and car sickness are
similar to the neurotic sociopathic CON-TROLL issues of
mentally derranged dog trainers, mostly divorced, beaten,
betrayed, bitter women. Oh, and pansies, like the ces.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAAAA~!~!~!
> But, it really didn't last long.
Naaaah? What happened? You run HOWETA narcotics?
> Perhaps if I had gone to high places every day in that time,
> I might have maintained what I had gained, I don't know. But
> it was still totally temporary.
Yeah, well, too bad you didn't have any DESENSITIZATION
METHODS to rely on like the anchoring / triggering
visualization or distraction and instant prolonged non
physical praise techniques as taught in your own FREE
COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual <{}' ~ ) >
LIKE THIS:
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
> That was the only time I've ever been completely flooded.
Yeah?
> The times I've gone to high places and not "finished the
> job", I've only ended up with the fear reinforced and
> nervous about associated stimuli.
You mean JUST LIKE HOWE a dog does when you "GRADUALLY"
introduce fear stimuli to decondition the dog with jerk
choking and bribing.
> In dogs, I've done some work with this stuff.
That so? Let's talk abHOWET counter surfin or
garbage bin raiding or just poison or snake
proofin a dog, tarag aka tara.green2?
Perhaps had you SHARED your METHOD for the LEAVE IT
COMMAND diddler's dog wouldn't be in critical condition?
> I have not seen flooding to be very practical
> or very helpful for the most part.
OF CURSE NOT, on accHOWENT of YOU DON'T KNOW HOWE TO DO IT.
First, you CANNOT FORCE CON-TROLL otherWIZE the dog will get worse.
> If its a minor anxiety, then flooding can be a quick
> method through the fear to get to the good result for
> the dog.
That so? Just "flooding" a behavior AIN'T TRAININ.
You gotta DO SUMPTHIN to TRAIN the behavior. YOU
AIN'T GOT NUTHING but givin the dog a cookie.
> Enough times of that, and the dog makes the connection....
You can EXXXTINGUISH ANY behavior in three or four
successive succesfully repetitions of the distraction
and praise technique.
> but then the discomfort/anxiety wasn't acute in those dogs
Until you flooded them.
> in the first place.
And sometimes it don't work and the dog GOES INSANE.
> When its a deeper level of anxiety,
ALL FEAR IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
> I've seen the greatest successes with desensitization.
That so? You got ANY CASE HISTORY DATA?
> They often have to be maintained as well,
You mean on accHOWENT of the dog STILL GOT THE SAME PROBLEM.
> but it is so much less stressful on the dog
That so?
> (even if its more stressful on the owner to accomplish),
Oh, indeed.
> and the opportunities to create positive
> associations are much greater.
You mean, like a cookie?
> Ok, I should never try to write more than 2 sentences
> without having had my coffee.
You mean, on accHOWENT of you CONtradict yourself every time?
> Hope any of this made sense.
You mean, that you've seen the greatest success through
desensitization yet it needs repetition? That makes sense
on accHOWENT of YOU AIN'T GOT NO METHOD otherWIZE you
wouldn't NEED to JERK CHOKE SHOCK BRIBE CRATE INTIMIDATE
MUTILATE and MURDER innocent defenseless dumb critters
and try to get HOWET callin THAT, trainin <{): ~ ( >
> Tara
You ain't got the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunning of
the domestic puppy dog even after The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard and HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat
And Horse Training Method Manual Students all over the
WHOWEL WILD WORLD told you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot <{); ~ ) >
WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
Forums <{); ~ ) >
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizards'
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ;
~ ) >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>Even Cesar says it is only common sense, but I bet most dogs do not get
>daily exercise. Putting a dog out in the yard is not exercise; that is
>another thing he says that I believe he is right about.
Putting my dogs out in the yard results in them getting more exercise
than 45 minutes of walking would give them. Dogs are not all the
same, you know.
Mustang Sally
pfoley
business and then lay down or try to get back in the house or bark at
neighbors if left outside. When I walk my dog in the forest each day for 45
minutes she runs back and forth to me, thus walking twice as much as I do on
the walk; then she meets another dog and chases that dog around. The other
thing about walking your dog in the yard versus sticking it out in the yard
is that they are happier dogs; they are not bored. Those are my beliefs
anyway.
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:6qb0b257i4u9t005k...@4ax.com...
Melinda Shore
pfoley <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I don't agree with that. Most times dogs in the yard sniff around do their
>business and then lay down or try to get back in the house or bark at
>neighbors if left outside.
You say "most times." What about the other times? My dogs
wouldn't be sufficiently exercised being left to their own
devices in the yard, but they're not greyhounds. And you
seem to be disagreeing with Sally's statement that not all
dogs are the same - is that what you intended?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Alison
> Even Cesar says it is only common sense, but I bet most dogs do not get
> daily exercise. Putting a dog out in the yard is not exercise; that is
> another thing he says that I believe he is right about.>>
Yes, I expect a lot of dogs don't get enough exercise and it's not just
exercise but mental stimulation too, especially when dogs are left alone
for hours and hours without a break.
What I was really trying to say is that though its an important point to
make, it doesn't necessarily make Cesar a great trainer for saying it.
I've not seen the programme or read his book so I can only comment on what
I've read here . It's easy to think someone is marvellous, I used to think
Jan Fennell, The Dog Listener was marvellous but now I know better.
The latest TV Dog trainer series on TV in the UK is Victoria Stilwell,
It's me or the Dog. In the first couple of series she was fond of using
aircans and horns (as well as using rewards) and there were a lot of
complaints from trainers etc. She did actually listen and the series
improved and I expect helped a lot of people with their dogs. I think
that shows she doesn't have a big ego like some other TV or well known
trainers.
Alison
>
>
Melinda Shore
elegy <el...@DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote:
>i don't know.... does it help or hurt when what they take away from
>the show is "tsst", leash pop, and alpha roll?
I think some of the absolute worst at-home, casual training
mistakes come from the misunderstanding of the implications
of the word "dominance." In the revision of HTBYDBF they
tell the reader *NOT* to alpha roll and I'm pretty surprised
that Millan is still at it.
Being a professional dog trainer strikes me as a much more
difficult job than I'd be able to do, because aside from
working through the dog's problems you've also got to find
ways to communicate with the owner, keeping in mind that the
owners need to learn things that are kind of forgiving of
screwups while still being effective. It seems to me that
Millan uses techniques that require a lot more deftness than
you find in the typical dog owner and ones where the
consequences of misapplication are not very good.
pfoley
exercise for the dog; I believe all dogs should be walked.
No not all dogs are the same; some very small dogs don't need as much
exercise as a larger breed or a very active dog, but they are the same as
getting the need for more stimulation to their brains from walking and
checking their (pee mail as my husband calls it) of other dogs; I believe
that is what they like doing the most, walking and sniffing; then they come
home satisfied and quieter. It makes for a happier dog and a happier owner.
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e8pf74$ion$1...@panix2.panix.com...
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>I don't agree with that. Most times dogs in the yard sniff around do their
>business and then lay down or try to get back in the house or bark at
>neighbors if left outside. When I walk my dog in the forest each day for 45
>minutes she runs back and forth to me, thus walking twice as much as I do on
>the walk; then she meets another dog and chases that dog around. The other
>thing about walking your dog in the yard versus sticking it out in the yard
>is that they are happier dogs; they are not bored. Those are my beliefs
>anyway.
You don't agree with what I see when I look out the window? Is that
what you're saying? You're a better judge of what my dogs do than I
am?
It must be catching.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>I didn't agree with her that letting your dog out in the backyard is enough
>exercise for the dog; I believe all dogs should be walked.
I didn't say "your dog"; I said "my dogs". You don't know anything
about my dogs; if you did, you'd know that they run with each other in
my fenced yard until they're tired out. They couldn't do that if I
walked them around here, because I couldn't take them off leash, and i
can't run as fast as a greyhound (average coasting speed around 35
mph).
Get a clue. You don't know what's best for my dogs, and I don't know
what's best for yours.
Mustang Sally
jav...@yahoo.com
pfoley wrote:
> I didn't agree with her that letting your dog out in the backyard is enough
> exercise for the dog; I believe all dogs should be walked.
The real point is that your 2 statements aren't logically connected.
That's the problem I have with Millan's flat statement that all dogs
should be walked 45 minutes a day. Sure, far too many dogs get far too
little mental and physical exercise. But the right conditioning
regime is as different for every dog as it is for humans. My 10 yr old
gsd is best served by tracking for .75 to 1.0 mile every morning, an
hour or so swimming, and being demo dog for 1or2 beginner classes.
Adding a 45 minute walk around the neighborhood would only be hard on
his joints and do nothing good for him. My 18 month old gsd is
building muscle right now for herding and agility. A walk isn't going
to do it for her, either. I'm getting a 13 wk old Visla and 6 month
old gsd in this week, and their conditioning plans will be equally
individualized. But none of them are ever walked.
Lynn K.
Judith Althouse
"Cesar was my hero,ido, guru...etc. I was just saying I like him very
much. I believe in most of what he says and does, but like everything
else. I take what works for me and leave the rest. Just as I would
from a professional trainer, a book, another TV show...I believe there
is a disclaimer on every show. I don't know anyone in the world that is
absolutely 100 percent on about every single thing....except perhaps
Human and Animal behavior blah blah blah....I do not want to grow up to
be like you. I get something out of almost every post here, but you my
dear I feel very sorry for. Why do you feel the need to attack me? If
you can't recall what I am referring to read the posts prior to this one
that is what I do when I post. I am sorry for my lack of usenet
etiquette. Thanks for all of the opinions, the review of the book, and
the explanation of flooding.
Be Free,
Judy
Paula
<x...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:47:49 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Even Cesar says it is only common sense, but I bet most dogs do not get
>>daily exercise. Putting a dog out in the yard is not exercise; that is
>>another thing he says that I believe he is right about.
>
>Putting my dogs out in the yard results in them getting more exercise
>than 45 minutes of walking would give them. Dogs are not all the
>same, you know.
Putting my dogs out in the yard results in butt tuck zoomies, chasing,
and wrestling until they are completely exhausted. We've never had a
walk that could do that to the big dogs. Walks are useful for other
things, though.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Paula
Althouse) wrote:
>Human and Animal behavior blah blah blah....I do not want to grow up to
>be like you. I get something out of almost every post here, but you my
>dear I feel very sorry for. Why do you feel the need to attack me?
He attacks everyone who doesn't think he is the greatest thing since
sliced bread. Killfile him. Everyone else with any brains around
here does, so you won't miss anything important by killfiling him.
Paula
wrote:
>I didn't agree with her that letting your dog out in the backyard is enough
>exercise for the dog; I believe all dogs should be walked.
>No not all dogs are the same; some very small dogs don't need as much
>exercise as a larger breed or a very active dog, but they are the same as
>getting the need for more stimulation to their brains from walking and
>checking their (pee mail as my husband calls it) of other dogs; I believe
>that is what they like doing the most, walking and sniffing; then they come
>home satisfied and quieter. It makes for a happier dog and a happier owner.
Now see, this is where it pays to know the dogs. Sally's dogs would
be in grave danger with your exercise method of 45 minute off lead
walks in the forest. They are greyhounds, which as a breed can't be
trusted not to run after critters and get in trouble and/or lost if
walked around off lead. In addition, greyhounds are sprinters. They
are not happy or healthy walking around as fast as a person can take
them on leash. OTOH, her dogs, being greyhounds, love to sprint
around open areas and do so when she lets them out into the fenced
yard. So the best exercise for her dogs is not what is best for your
dogs or what Cesar apparently says is best for all dogs.
I have some little dogs, who can get plenty of exercise on walks, but
they still like to chase each other around and wrestle. My big dogs
would never get enough exercise from walks even if I ran as fast as I
could for as long as I could. I can't let them off lead to run back
and forth and to chase other dogs because there are leash laws here
and not all dogs are good chase companions, especially the ones whose
owners ignore leash laws in a neighborhood like mine. They do,
however, love to run around the back yard chasing each other and
wrestling, which wears them out. If they don't want to be out there
without me, I go out with them, I don't let them back into the house,
put a leash on them and go for a walk. That would be silly.
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
about. However, one thing sticks out in my mind. He had a dog, I
believe it was a chow mix, that was very aggressive when it came to
getting it's nails clipped. His "method" for solving this problem was
to pin the dog with one arm and clip the dog's nails. I have a dog,
which is a rescue dog, with a severe fear of getting it's nails
clipped. If I tried to force the dog to get it's nails clipped using
this method I would probably get injured, because he can pick me up on
his back. By the way, I easily outwiegh Cesar. I have found the best
way to deal with this problem is using gradual desensitization. It may
take me 4 days currently to get all of my dog's nails clipped, but at
least they all get done with no risk to myself. Eventually, I should
be able to clip them in one day. Also worth noting, Cesar got bit by
the chow mix while using his method, so I don't really agree with the
show displaying it to viewers who might try similar methods with
dangerous results.
Nick
pfoley
I feel about things; what I say is not gospel; it doesn't have to be the
only form of entertainment for a dog. My niece has Whippets that chase a
white bag around the field on a pulley; they love it. Some dogs have jobs
that they do; they love that. I don't even know you or your dogs. I am
just talking about dogs in general; not your particular dogs. If they have
fun running around in circles all day long in a yard, then let them, but my
dog would be bored doing that everyday.
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:upk0b25ifm4fgpnqh...@4ax.com...
pfoley
dogs are as quiet as can be. Maybe if they do it often enough, they won't
bolt. Not sure if that would work, or maybe they just have calm greyhounds.
You would have to walk them on the leash for awhile to see what happens. In
fact besides the three greyhounds, they also walk a german shepherd and a
husky all together. I am mainly talking about dogs that are home all day
with no stimulation and then let out into the yard, or left in the yard all
day long alone. Plus, don't you feel it is a social thing for them to get
out and look around; it is good for them all around is how I see it. I am
sure working dogs do not need to do it; they have enough stimulation, or
maybe old dogs, or dogs that can't stand the heat, unless they were walked
early in the morning or in the evening. My Rottweiler does not like heat,
so I have to take her early in the morning.
"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message
news:tk21b2dlptfemq7k4...@4ax.com...
Handsome Jack Morrison
<el...@DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote:
[]
>>But I think that having a show like this reach the masses, well, that
>>*is* ground-breaking, and it just might have a positive effect on the
>>folks out there who might recognize *themselves* in the folks and
>>families he "trains" on his show.
>>
>>It surely can't hurt.
>
>i don't know.... does it help or hurt when what they take away from
>the show is "tsst",
What harm could come from the "tsst"???
Other trainers have been using similar versions of the "tsst" for
years.
It's a distraction. Feel free to come up with your own.
For example: "psst" "yech" "acch" "ooop" Etc. :)
>leash pop
What leash pop?
I done see no steeeeeeenkin' leash pops.
>and alpha roll?
Yes, (as I've said previously) that could get them in some trouble.
However, his show is *littered* with warnings not to try his methods
without the supervision and assistance of a professional trainer.
Again, I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.
YMMV.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Beware! Deranged Leftist "professors" like Deborah Frisch could be teaching your children:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/07/a_new_low.html#more
Handsome Jack Morrison
I just don't get this.
We're now expecting a TV show to allow for each and every scenario
possible?
We've got a guy who's recommending a *45* minute walk a day (aimed
directly specifically at your *average* dog owner, not experienced
and/or competitive dog owners!), and we're nit-picking him to death?
Out of all the dogs in America who currently find themselves in "the
average home," what percentage of them do you think are getting walked
45 minutes, each and every day?
Not for one second did I think he directd that advice to, say, people
who compete, experienced dog owners, etc.
<sigh>
I just don't understand all this nit-picking.
Something else must be going on here, but I'll be damned if I know
what it is.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>Anyone want to discuss the specific example[s] of flooding they've
>>actually observed Millan using on his show?
>>
>>Can I see a show of hands?
>
>I'd like to read that discussion, even though the one episode of the
>show I saw didn't have anything to do with flooding so I couldn't add
>to the discussion.
Well, I guess this train ain't leaving the station.
Too bad, it's a good topic.
Sorry, Paula!
TO...@dog-play.com
<snip>
> I am mainly talking about dogs that are home all day
> with no stimulation and then let out into the yard, or left in the yard all
> day long alone.
Try saying what you mean instead of being overbroad and then people will
know what you meant.
Perception is more important than intention.
> Plus, don't you feel it is a social thing for them to get
> out and look around; it is good for them all around is how I see it.
Different issue, and doesn't require "walking" although that is one form
of providing that source of stimulation.
If you state you believe that "all dogs" should be treated in some
particular way, people will think that you believe that all dogs should be
treated in that way. If you don't mean all dogs, because you understand
that there are differences, then don't say "all dogs."
--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
Paula
wrote:
>Plus, don't you feel it is a social thing for them to get
>out and look around; it is good for them all around is how I see it.
There are other reasons and benefits to take dogs on walks, yes, and I
do take my dogs on walks for those reasons, but not for 45 minutes a
day and not for exercise, which is what the discussion was about, or
so I read it.
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
Judith Althouse wrote:
>
> Hello all,
You mean 'HOWEDY Gang Of Miserable Stinkin Lyin Dog
Abusing Punk Thug Coward Active Acute Chronic Long
Term Incurable Mental Cases', don't you, Judith.
> I am a bit of a drama queen and a bit wordy so when I said
> "Cesar was my hero,ido, guru...etc. I was just saying I
> like him very much.
the ces is a Nazi.
> I believe in most of what he says and does,
Perhaps THAT'S HOWE COME DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS,
Judith?
> but like everything else, I take what works for me and leave the rest.
Yeah. That's the same story we been gettin for ten years from
the koehler Nazis, Judith. They only HURT and INTIMIDATE their
dogs to a POINT an leave the rest.
LIKE THIS:
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy, aka handsome
gentleman jack morrison aka joey finnochiarrio
aka "you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> Just as I would from a professional trainer, a book, another
> TV show...I believe there is a disclaimer on every show.
INDEEDY. HOWEver, there AIN'T NO DISCLAIMER in your own FREE
COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ )
>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
> I don't know anyone in the world that is absolutely 100
> percent on about every single thing....except perhaps
> Human and Animal behavior blah blah blah....
You mean The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard,
Judith. Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research
Laboratory PROVES IT, Judith <{); ~ ) >
> I do not want to grow up to be like you.
You mean on accHOWENT of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard
DON'T HURT INTIMIDATE MUTILATE an MURDER innocent defenseless dumb
critters, Judith?
> I get something out of almost every post here,
INDEEDY:
tommy sorenson aka handsome gentleman jack morrison aka
joey finnochiarrio aka howie lipshitz aka DOGMAN suggested
you GET RID of your dog on accHOWENT of IT is a Pit Bull.
Master Of Deception blankman and elegy *(a Pit Bull RESCUER)
recommended you read the "BadRap.Com" website, where they MAKE
EXXXCUSES for Pit Bulls not bein TRUSTworthy, Judith.
racetrack silly and paula taught you that fear aggression
and hyperactive stress induced psychogenic seizures are
NORMAL but can cause Gray HOWENDS and Dalmatians to be un-
trustworthy off leash on accHOWENT of they run HOWETA CON-
TROLL and attack innocent defenseless dumb critters soon
as they're released from a box.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
3 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 4:16 pm
montana wildhack wrote:
> On 2006-06-10 16:56:28 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
> <x...@ncweb.com> said:
> > Plus she's easier to clean up when she
> I'm sorry to read that.
> Aside from the shedding, I hardly know how to act since we have one
> almost 5 year old dog with no major health issues. It's really weird.
I dream of such weirdness. Matty's death reduced the number of males
requiring belly bands for medical reasons, as well as the number of
dogs taking Previcox. But Anna's feeding routines and medications are
really expensive and time-consuming. On a good note, she stopped
eating canned food during the last bout of aspiration pneumonia (#5, I
think) and we switched her to kibble (soaked until soggy, then ground
up with a mixer until it's sort of a paste, and formed into balls).
*Much* cheaper, less messy when she inevitably coughs it all over the
vicinity and the person feeding, higher in calories, and she really
likes it, at least for now. I can't imagine what it would be like to
never chew anything crunchy again, poor dog.
Mustang Sally
> but you my dear I feel very sorry for.
You're trying to use guilt as a weapon. It don't work
with dogs and it don't work with DECENT people, Judith.
That's a tactic you learned from your passive aggressive
momma, Judith. That's a tactic she developed to defend
her sensitive feelins from your abusive daddy.
> Why do you feel the need to attack me?
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard AIN'T
ATTACKIN you, Judith. You had the opportunity to say
"THANK YOU The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard for saving my dog's life" but you chose
not to stop hurting and intimidating your dogs, Judith.
> If you can't recall what I am referring to
THAT'S HOWE COME most courteHOWES posters QUOTE a bit
of what they're replying to and do not snip cross posts
or "trim" pertinent text to avoid EMBARRASSMENT.
> read the posts prior to this one that is what I do when I post.
Evidently you been readin the WRONG posts, Judith.
OtherWIZE you'd have STOPPED HURTING and INTIMDIATING
your dogs and studied your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ )
>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
and you'd be sayin "THANK YOU The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard, your FREE MANUAL SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE. G-D BLESS
YOU".
LIKE THIS:
"my grandchildren will never ever.. ever.. feel
shame or feel like they're not loved :).
then i heard him tell someone on the news group "Do you
think hitting babies is intelligent" and i was like whoa..
now i feel like cockaroach and pray every time i distract
them that they can somehow grow up not to hate me..
and i pray i caught myself in enough time." Amanda.
Subject: Re: Discipline
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:43:46 -0500
From: Amanda <ama...@dcfwatch.com>
To: "N
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 01:54, "N wrote:
i responded in katie's mail.. youll get it before this one :)
i'm not the expert.. mr. howe is teaching me.. and im
figuring alot out.. plus its just coming to me.. two months
ago i would cry cuz i was soooo lost... and now i go ahead
and live it... like he gave me just enough for my brain to fill
in the rest?
when i would swat in my early parent years.. up until i got
crunchy this last year.. i swore spanking was great.. a lil
bit of fear in yo' momma is what i would say.. and my
family supported me.. you can spank and not be abusive.
------------
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would gladly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida
----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: JesuMaria@.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Thanks, Jerry! All pages were received and
downloaded without any problems!
God bless you! Please know that you will
be remembered in all prayers and sacrifices,
and daily before the Most Blessed Sacrament
here in our Chapel.
With many prayers,
Sister Anthony Marie
----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Here's professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM NO! into ITS face for
five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer of the Department of ANAL-ytic Behavior at UofWI, pryor:
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.=AD),
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent=AD,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts =ADto
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
-------------
AND LIKE THIS:
HOWEDY culprit,
"culprit" <culp...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:bm30da$hmbrc$1...@ID-58739.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "ke.ver" <Koen.Verhe...@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:kp7hb.67308$4m5.3...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
> > aimee , i don't quite understand : when the dog pees or
> > poops you tell the dog first what's that and then you tell
> > him good boy , you're a good dog ; what kind of training
> > manual is TPW ? i don't see how this can help the dog
> > ( and you )
> i think "aimee" is an alias for our resident troll, who
> tries to push his "training method" on people.
> i wouldn't worry too much about her.
> -kelly
HOWEDY kelly,
"culprit" <culpri...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bl22ho$76rdi$1...@ID-58739.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "AIMEE" <countrygirl0...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1afc3ce9.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > We had fallen into a rut - constant bickering and
> > tension, we never laughed or had FUN together -
> > but now, with the same mindset used in THE
> > PUPPY WIZARDS dog training, our communications
> > channels have opened, and we now work together
> > instead of against one another.
>
> TPW saved your marriage?
INDEEDY.
> kick ass!
The Puppy Wizard doesn't approve of violence.
> that's a new one, innit?
NOT AT ALL, kelly.
> we better add that to the list of magical things
> the wiz can do!
INDEEDY.
> train all dogs perfectly, in minutes.
GUARANTEED.
> prevent seizures.
DONE THAT.
> make children behave better.
GUARANTEED.
> save bad marriages.
DONE THAT.
> am i missing anything?
INDEEDY. You're missing HUMAN DECENCY,
MORALS, ETHICS, PRINCIPLES, and ALL REASON.
> -kelly
And that ain't all The Puppy Wizard SPECIALIZES in, kelly.
> not really in need of saving, thanks.
NO PROBLEMO! You're inscribed in the book of eternal death.
You're a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE.
lyingdogDUMMY wrote:
> Well, the newest shill on the scene must be Michael,
> because Jerry couldn't possibly spell "literalists."
Aimee replied:
Your reply doesn't even pertain to the subject...
Why don't we discuss why you feel you need hurt
animals to "train" them?
I've actually met TPW. I called him a few times with
questions about the training method, and he realized
that there were some underlying problems. Axel (my dog)
had a special situation. So, TPW met with us in our home.
The first thing he noticed was that Axel's collar was too
tight. We loosened it, and immediately Axel calmed
down quite a bit.
We went outside and worked on the HOT AND COLD
HANDLING EXERCISE and THE FAMILY PACK
LEADERSHIP EXERCIZE. That seemed to get us
headed in the right direction, but we were still having
a few problems with Axel's anxiety.
The main reason TPW visited our home - I found this
our recently during one of our conversations- was to
see how my husband and I interacted with one another.
I had been following the methods precisely, but Axel
was still having difficulty.
TPW's assumptions were correct - we were causing
alot of Axel's anxiety with our arguments and tension.
TPW told me that Axel has been one of his most
difficult dogs to work with.
Axel had his anxieties from mishandling and from my
husband and myself.
We had a few problems because I was unwilling to
accept the fact that I needed to be "nice" eventhough
I wasn't being treated "nicely", but once I realized that
was the only way I could really get Axel past his anxiety,
I worked on being a loving wife (even though I didn't
really want to be).
AND GUESS WHAT? My husband saw the difference,
and he followed suit.Now, we have a stress free dog,
and a good marriage.
Can you tell me how forcing someone (dog, person,
cat) to do what YOU want them to do, is going to
improve a situation? I tried that with my husband
and with my dog, and it didn't work with either of them.
Your methods have an 85% success rate - and my dog
was one of the 15% that doesn't accept your methods.
TPW has 100% success rate. You do the math.
If TPW hadn't helped us, Axel wouldn't be where he is today.
============================
Here's Aimee's original post and her first post to
The Puppy Wizard:
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him as a puppy, and
due to constant mishandling (pulling on his lead, negative
corrections, and the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't crate him, I couldn't
even take my dog for walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things didn't turn
around.
My husband and I searched the internet for answers - AND
WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a dog that can be
left home alone, that heels on command, that can go outside
and NOT be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods help our dog, but our marriage
has gotten better. We had fallen into a rut - constant bickering
and tension, we never laughed or had FUN together - but now, with
the same mindset used in THE PUPPY WIZARDS dog training, our
communications channels have opened, and we
now work together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID NOT
TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY, OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting the
POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of blame
that we have to accept, but once we realize that we've caused
these problems to arise, we can strive to make things better.
=================
AND LIKE THIS:
Discipline - The "NO!" Command - HOWE Dogs
And Children Learn To Tell You "NO!" And HOWE
COME They RUN HOWET And TURN ON YOU:
From: Amanda [mailto:ama...@dcfwatch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Discipline
On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:47, T__ wrote:
funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful
couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his life
who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and distraction
with some family pack exercises.
They spent the day with us sunday helping me on my
two pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month old
female who is my bubby :) and our 7 week male pup.
anyway.. not only did i nip any and all aggression issues
in mere minutes...he and his wife helped me with my kids.
I was and always have been a spanker.
It is all i knew how.. i never, ever wanted to be..
but i was. my house/kids were out of control..
i was always stressed.
Since he and his wife came down sunday we've
had a HUGE change... for the first time the kids
didn't destroy my house before i woke up... my
3yo was in my bed coloring waiting for us to wake
up... this is the first time she ever used paper
:) she usually does walls, furniture.
Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works.
I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am and
know it :) There has not been a temper tantrum in two
days in my house.
You guys have no idea how great this is.
But best of all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye
or a tone of that is in any way short of absolute praise..
no shouting.. not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada.. ONLY
praise.
They even taught my kids not to take candy unless
i say so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her
ears for candy..
it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and
now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my
closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there
and NO ONE has eaten one! My 3 yo is even helping
me pick up the house.. the baby took my lingerie chest
apart.. and she cleaned it up! first time!
They don't even go out the open door without my
offering it! they helped me sort laundry.. clean the
living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got some yogurt
from the fridge andwalked to our kitchen table, sat
down and ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at the table
and eat!
We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so
when they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you
show me how you sit pretty?? and they ALL hop
down and show me to sit pretty with their feet NOT
on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost
fell over..
thanks for reminding me to share my joy!
I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell! lol!
here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!!
> how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/
> Hello again ladies,
> Amanda, I love your signature. I also do not spank my
> daughter, however, she is at an age where she really is
> asserting her independence.
> Can anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings,
> T.
Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP!
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:38:46 -0500
From: Amanda <ama...@dcfwatch.com>
> Can you go into this a little more? How did they
> accomplish all this in one day?
My learning is progressive. I email or call him with
questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something
clicked.
How would we do it with our families?
that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be
typing when your kids are in college ;)
> I really have problems controlling my temper when I am
> already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me:
Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had
problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old
wouldn't clean her room... i would sometimes cry is was so
strung out.. i didn't wanna spank but i didn't know what to do
instead.. so i spanked.. and then spanking didn't work.. and
then my dogs went nuts and i called this trainer and he showed
me how to do it.
pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc.
Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me..
hurting me and then laughing.
Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it
all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is
i've only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two
days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :)
Children, dogs, people.. they do thinks wrong because it
ellicits your ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old
enjoy fingerpainting on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting
the minute you pick up the phone?? No.
They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's
what they want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think
it is controlling you.
Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure
they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are
watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be. they
should stay within x feet of you.. because they like mom and
she's cool and she keeps em safe... they shouldn't run and
expect you to chase them.. because you won't always be there
to chase them... that's how kids die or get lost.
When they learn to follow you.. it's all good.
Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz
from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it..
she threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says
more.. and i tickle her... then i pick up her bottle and
pretend im drinking it.. i offer her a drink and snatch it
back saying MY Baba!! She wants that bottle.. so she takes it
and drinks it.. even tho i didn't refill it.
we had a huge problem with them taking things they cant
have and when i wanted it they ran... now i give the baby
(19mo) my finger.. and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout
My finger! that's mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she
resists.. and i go "Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives
it to me and i gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're
welcome.. and i give her the finger back... then i hand her
say a lighter... and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say...
can i have that??? and she gives it over etc.
Of course sometimes she'll have a cool! book! and ill ask
can i have that.. and shell say No. and i say that's ok!
and tickle her or snap my fingers and say good girl naya..
good job.. then ill start my game again and wrestle and
try to take it gently... then.. can i have that??? s
he gives it over. this works with everything now.
> Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like
> that.
Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced
control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract
and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids. Put
some unimportant paper all over.. when he goes to touch it..
make a sound and distract him.. then good boy, that's a nice
baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes for the paper and
breaks the thgouth you throw him in the air and praise like
mad!
> How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do
> you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough
> to distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal
> objects into electrical outlets, trying to get into the
> oven, etc.?
Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to
distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away..
but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know
youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... cuz when
you force control.. with the come command when you want your
dog away from something... or when you pull a dirty shoe from
your baby's mouth.. you put value on it.
Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to
pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down..
you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap..
mom WANTS IT!
so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it
out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be
kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get
annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you...
if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch
em up away from falling down... but only when you have to..
then work realy hard to overcome that forced control.
Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not
only to command your attention, but also mom will always catch
me so she is watching me.. not me watching her.
> I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started
> tending other kids.
those are my kids. I have had social workers with their
degrees in child development stop offering me services cuz
they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine the
obstinate kids.
> They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings up
> another question - what do you do when YOUR child is the
> bully?
if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big
distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward... distract
and say oh my goodness! and pay attention to the other kid...
he wont get the attention... then explain how that hurts.
odds are your kid won't hurt another kid if he truly
understands its not nice.
> C__ is always beating the other boy over the head when he
> comes over.
> We don't hit in anger in our family
i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times
over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to.
i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone else
doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge.
> (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that
> in case it is giving him ideas)
my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is chasing
around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden spools yelling at
the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat your a$$.. HA HA HA... no
IM gonna beat YOUR a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly
think im nuts.. but the kids love it dog even plays too
> but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go
> to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes.
> It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes
> bright red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds.
It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't
want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out of it
until they're parents :) it's one of those times you have to
use your patience and keep distracting and praising.
> So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse
> him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up and
> run to the window and start bending the blinds.
he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you
have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not..
no anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total
complete entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll
be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive!
One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to
work up to the positive only.
> So I gently pick him up and lay him back down.
try not to.. but if you have to ok
> And we repeat the process over 10000 times.
when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his
face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or
giggle.
> Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently.
better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry.
No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to
remember they will not always be this small.. and youll never,
ever for anything get it back. it's what im using
> That makes him cry, which is the last straw that
> FINALLY gets him to nurse to sleep.
He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep.
> Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a
> lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping,
> and finally crying releases it for him.
no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for
some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger,
sadness... sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not
because of his life.. because he's insecure... their dealing
with negative and positive.. and thats what makes em
insecure.
> Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying?
distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance..
fast for day.. slow rocking at night.
> Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to
> work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can
> reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside
> down.
cuz he knows what you're doing. hold him instead..
or sit him in your lap on the bed and rock
> Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that
> doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured
> and screams and fights to get out.
becuase it is forced control.
> Katie
Amanda
========
SEE? SEE?? SEE???
> I am sorry for my lack of usenet etiquette.
No. It AIN'T a ACCIDENT or COINCIDENCE otherWIZE THIS
WOULDN'T BE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Pussy And
Horse Training Method Manual Forums And Human And
Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory
where POSTED CASE HISTORY DATA is used to IDENTIFY
EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT lyin dog abusing punk thug
cowards like yourself, by QUOTING YOUR OWN WORDS <{) ; ~ ) >
> Thanks for all of the opinions,
EVERY WON of the respondents GOT THE SAME PROBLEMS
FOR THE SAME REASONS:
"And of course, there is always the possibility that this
will not work, and he will just not listen to commands when
he wants to fight the other dog. If that is the case, then
I would strongly advise putting the dog down, I don't like
rehoming dogs that had a temperament issue that you can't
correct since you just pass the problem on to them.
Just make sure you give the dog long enough to improve
before making that decision. Good luck, and if you have
any specific questions I will do my best to answer them," Nick
> the review of the book,
The book is GARBAGE. The author is a NAZI
> and the explanation of flooding.
Yeah. Seems lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn has concerns
abHOWET "FLOODING" behaviors on accHOWENT of she don't
understand the term or the techniques nodoGdameneD MOORE
than your newfHOWEND pal tarag aka tara.green2 who likeWIZE
got PROBLEMS for "FLOODING" behaviors to EXXXTINCTION,
sumpthin they've NEVER SUCCESSFULLY DONE, accordin to
their own posted case histories.
LIKE THIS:
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
----------------
> Be Free,
INDEED:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> Judy
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
HOWEDY Judith,
Judith Althouse wrote:
> Thumbs up or Thumbs down???
the ces is a dog abusin punk thug coward, a Nazi / Fascist.
The EVIDENCE is in your own dogs. We can PROVE or
DISPROVE EVERYTHING RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NHOWE,
if you care to put your FEELINS aside and get to the FACTS
and overcome your innate fearful / abusive behaviors.
UNLESS you think the ces has PROVEN the EXXXPERTS WRONG, Judith:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual <{): ~ ) >
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> I love him.
DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS, Judith.
> He is my idol, my hero, my guru.
He's a dog abuser, a punk and a coward. His "dog training" methods
are the same as the street gang mentality he learned RESPECT from.
Perhaps you like him on accHOWENT of he reminds you of your daddy?
Abuse / fear aggression AIN'T a genetic problem, it's a SPIRITUAL
problem,
passed on from WON generatiHOWEN of abuser to the next, like the 100th
monkey washin fruit in the stream. After a while it's not just NORMAL,
it's OBLIGATORY.
To do otherWIZE would be DISRESPECTFUL of your parental teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear,
Hate, Reflex, Self Will,
Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment,
Guilt, Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness,
Aversion, Attraction, Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion,
Change, Permanence, Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition,
And
Parental / ReligiHOWES / Societal Conditioning.
YOU ARE THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ' ~ ) >
> i want to be him when I grow up :)
Well then, you're too stupid to live so long.
> so, whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
Your own dogs behavior problems are reflected in
your mentors insidiHOWES methods:
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
With all due respect, shove 'm both up your arse an walk on your
elbows.
> Be Free,
That's curiHOWES, comin from a Nazi.
> Judy
Here's a little of your own posted case history and
a couple of REVIEWS of the ces in action:
Judith Althouse wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I read thru all of the posts just knowing that someone else
> had already addressed my problems but if so I overlooked it.
The QUESTION was "alpha dogs".
The PROBLEM is FEAR AGGRESSION in a ALPHA BITCH HOWEsHOWEld <{): ~ ) >
> I have had 2 of my dogs since they were a year old.
> They are now 13 and 14.
The average lifespan of abused dogs here is 9-10 years old.
> The older one a spayed female Border Collie mix. The 13
> year old a Black Lab, 15 months ago I introduced a year
> old Pit Bul/Lab mix to the pack.
NO PROBLEMO.
> He is a neutered male approx 2 years old now....
Surgical sexual mutilation CAUSES insecurity and aggression.
> Everything has been rolling right along.
INDEED.
> Several months ago another Pit Bull joined the family
> although he has remained outside. He is not neutered
> yet and though he is very mellow I just feel like I am
> pushing my luck to introduce him to the household.
Dog trainin AIN'T LUCK. "Luck is for SUCKERS," The Puppy
Wizard's DADDY <{}; ~ ) >
> He is not housebroken
That's IDIOCY. HOWEsbreakin is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks
of age. It's a dog's most imperative terrortorial imperative after
SURVIVAL. There's ONLY TWO *(2) reasons HOWE COME a
dog would have HOWEsbreakin problems. AnyWON who got
a dog with HOWEsbreakin problems got EITHER a SICK DOG
OR a UNHAPPY DOG <{): ~ ( >
Perhaps you better take your "unHOWEsbroken" dog to the vet
on accHOWENT of we KNOW he's HAPPY livin in your HOWES.
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> and most likely has spent his life on a chain.
That's IRRELEVENT.
> Ok here is the problem...
YUP:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Jubal Early the Pit Bull/Lab mix recently attacked
> Buck (my old Lab) 3 times in one day.
Dogs ONLY attack when they're AFRAID. ALL AGGRESSION
IS FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
LIKE THIS:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> It was not the most vicious attacks I have ever seen but
> could have easily escalated. Buck came out of it with a
> scrape on his ear. Buck just laid around for a day. I
> am not sure if it was because he was sore or because he
> was broken. Of course I have kept Jubal Early seperated
> or on a leash since then.
Seems with all your "KNOWLEDGE" learned from the ces,
you shouldn't have this problem. Your dogs are not
"calm and assertive" they're AFRAID, on accHOWENT of
you're a DOG ABSUER, not a calm assertive leader, but
a NAZI, like the ces. OtherWIZE, your dogs would be
FRIENDLY and SAFE and SECURE.
HOWEver, THEY AIN'T.
> Buck is definitely afraid of Jubal,
Well then, what's THAT say to your "CALM ASSERTIVE" energy?
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> the sound of him makes Buck anxious.
Well then, perhaps you should practice the ces's "SECRET S-HOWEND",
eh Judith? You know, the WON the ces makes when he got to assert
his calm assertive energy? You know, when he grabs the victim by
his throat an tells IT to be CALM and ASSERTIVE and IT WON'T GET
CHOKED someMOORE <{}; ~ ) >
> Prior to this incident Jubal E steered clear of Buck if
> a toy would roll over to Buck he would grab the toy and
> run for his life, even jump over the couch at times to
> avoid passing Buck in a close hall way.
What happened to your "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY", Judith?
> I must admit to having made some mistakes with Jubal E.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> He is young and active and he is fun to play with
> plus I did not have complete control of his handling.
You mean you couldn't jerk and choke IT and run IT arHOWEND
the city for an HOWER twice a day as INSTRUCTED by the ces?
> Suffice it to say Jubal was allowed to run the show.
You mean, he was ALPHA? The so called "ALPHA" is ALWAYS
the MOST FEARFUL, like the alpha trainer, Judith. THAT'S
HOWE COME the ces is a COWARD, Judith. ONLY A COWARD would
do what he does to dogs and try to get HOWET callin NAZISM,
dog trainin.
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> He became the Pack Leader over humans and dogs alike.
That's sheer idiocy.
> My theory is that Jubal has just taken over as the Alpha Dog.
You mean he's HOWETA CON-TROLL, Judith? PERHAPS it's your
THEORY that's caused your dog behavior problems? PERHAPS
if you worked within ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC BEHAVIOR SCIENCE
you wouldn't be GUSSIN HOWE COME your dog is AFRAID enough
to attack his HOWEsmate UNDER YOUR CON-TROLL, Judith?
> The part I do NOT understand is why Jubal Early is still
> on the attack since Buck is not offering any opposition.
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENT of your dog is AFRAID, Judith.
HERE'S HOWE COME YOUR DOG IS AFRAID, Judith:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> I can't say he is submissive.
RIGHT. It's SURVIVAL INSTINCT. You've frightened your dog to death.
> He doesn't get a chance to be.
Naaaah? DO TELL???
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Terrified would be more like it....
INDEED? Whatever happened to your "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY", Judith?
> I have gone over the incidents a million times
ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR, Judith. The SAME FEAR which fuels
you and your Nazi punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case pals who jerk choke shock
bribe crate intimidate surgically sexually mutilate and
murder innocent defenseless dumb critters <{): ~ ( >
THAT'S HOWE COME DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS, Judith.
> and for the life of me I cannot put my finger on
> anything in particular triggering the incident...
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> There was a time when Lady (my oldest dog was the Alpha dog
You mean when she was most afraid.
> and controlled Buck) until a few years ago and
> she gracefully took a back seat to him.
That's curiHOWES. Males in nature ALWAYS defer to the female,
it's SURVIVAL INSTINCT at it's beast, dog lovers <{): ~ ) >
> Somebody, please help?
Here ya go, Judith:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
> Do you think things will ever settle down here?
All depends. Do you want to continue to be an abuser?
> All of my dogs are rescued dogs that just came to me.
Yeah. Rescued.
> As much as I love the 2 new additions. I will not see
> my poor old Dog Buck be terrified and hurt by anyone.
You mean, like HOWE he HAS BEEN, despite your "CALM ASSERTIVE" energy?
> You can imagine what it is like, constantly
> shuffling dogs and fearing disaster.
Yeah. It'd be NORMAL for a incompetent dog abusin coward.
> This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.
Naaah?
> I am sorry to be so wordy, but I was trying to give you
> the straight scoop so hopefully someone could offer some
> advice.
Yeah? Then HOWE COME you "OVERLOOKED" your ALPHALPHA THEORY PROBLEM?
> I have always had dogs.
Let's get sumpthin straight, dog abuser. DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT
POST HERE abHOWETS. LIARS DOG ABSUERS COWARDS and PATHETIC
LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG
TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES post here when they want PERMISSION
to HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER their own innocent defenseless
dumb critters, Judith.
HOWE COME DO YOU WANT TO HURT YOUR DOGS, Judith?
> I have owned a show dog, obedience dogs, (Dobermans)
Oh, so you've already got a very long case history
of animal abuse and alphalphal dysfunction thinkin.
> so I am not a novice to the dog world.
But you're lookin for advice to HURT your dog.
> Somebody please HELP us...
No Judith, you need to heelp yourself.
> Thanks for reading this.....
You're a victim of abuse, as are your children and dogs.
> Be Free,
ONLY PARENTS FEAR and HATE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard even MOORE than the professional trainers,
university behaviorists and veterinary malpracticioners whom
HE has IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED <{) ; ~ ) >
> Judy
Oprah Winfrey's Dog Problems
Lisa Radosta -Huntley DVM
Resident, Behavioral Medicine
Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital of the
University of Pennsylvania
I am sorry to report that Cesar Millan is going to be featured
on an upcoming episode of Oprah
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/goss...-262036c.html).
Pretty much everything that EVER appears on Oprah becomes HUGE,
so I am very disheartened to say the least. Best case scenario
is that this appearance puts him on the radar of the positive
dog training, animal welfare, and/or animal rights communities
resulting in a critical mass of people expressing their opposition
to his methods.
Unfortunately, in the U.S., even bad press winds up being
good press somehow, so it will be interesting to see how
this plays out.
Lisa Radosta -Huntley DVM
Resident, Behavioral Medicine
Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital of the
University of Pennsylvania Oprah link -
http://www.oprah.com/email/tows/tows...uestid=3240019
Please do whatever you can...
Pat Miller
Hi,
This message was originally sent to me by Kathy Kruger. I am
forwarding it because if we don't act now, Cesar Millan and
his methods will be household names by Monday afternoon at 5 pm.
Anyone who is interested, please pass this on to your own list
serves and act quickly. I have already emailed and the letter
that we sent to National Geographic is being overnight Fed Ex'd.
Lisa
__________________
Cesar's Way:
The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding
& Correcting Common Dog Problems
By Cesar Millan, with Melissa Jo Peltier
Harmony Books, 320 pp., 2006; $24.95
Reviewed by Pat Miller for The Bark
Cesar Millan Book
Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the
discerning reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The
book's strength is as an autobiography of National Geographic's
TV dog-trainer star, Cesar Millan. If you're curious about
how Millan got where he is today, this book will tell you.
If you're looking for significant help training your dog,
however, look elsewhere.
Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-
and consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation.
In an interview published in the New York Times in February
of this year, Dr. Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal
Behavior Clinic at Tufts University 's Cummings School of
Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My College thinks it is a
travesty.
We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them
they have put dog training back 20 years."
Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
offering instead broad generalizations about projecting "calm-
assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling "calm,
submissive energy" in your dog.
For example, in Chapter 8, he offers "Simple Tips for Living
Happily with Your Dog." His "Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his... condition him to get
quietly off the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."
Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he
explain how to accomplish these things, other than by
using calm-assertive energy.
Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "
politically incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance
theory, stating, "To dogs, there are only two positions in
a relationship: leader and follower.
Dominant and submissive.
It's either black or white."
He even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of
authorities to allow him to rehabilitate Hera, one of
the two notorious Presa Canario dogs who killed Diane
Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
building.
In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in
terms of dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha
roll as part of his "dominance ritual"; this technique-
forcibly rolling a dog on his side or back and holding him
there-is considered by many to be a dangerous practice based
on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior.
It long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods
are based on the science of behavior and learning.
Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers
talk about behavior, and generally agree that status in
social groups is fluid and contextual, not black or white.
Truly effective and long-term success in behavior modification
requires a far more studied and complex approach than simply
asserting dominance.
Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely.
Millan refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on
his TV show who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims
that with less than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence,
Kane was striding confidently down the slick hallway.
Every trainer I know who has watched that segment notes the
dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing stress signals: head
and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.
Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior,
a concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a
description of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with
his pack of dogs every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of
Southern California, followed by afternoons spent rollerblading
with those same dogs, 10 at a time, on the streets around his
training center.
One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it
gives the dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog
owners can spend six hours a day exercising their dogs?
How many can project "calm-assertive energy"? The danger of
Cesar's Way is that it assures owners that quick fixes and
easy answers lie in the hands of a smiling man with the elusive
calm-assertive energy.
In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity
of life, where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are
solidly built on a sturdy foundation and an understanding of
how behavior really works.
Recommended Reading from 4Paws University
A Tough-Love Dog Whisperer Spurs Some Yelps
Producer Sues TV's Dog Whisperer
Cesar's Way:
The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding
and Correcting Common Dog Problems
Amazon.com
"Whisper" softly and carry a big stick?!,
May 8, 2006
Reviewer: Sympawtico Dog Training, LLC -
I recently compiled a list of suggested reading materials
for my dog training clients. Cesar's Way is not on it.
His methods are based on out-dated and scientifically unfounded
theories that too often place the trainer at odds with their dog,
compromising the safety of both - not to mention eroding the dog-
human bond.
With all of the other good books on positive reinforcement dog
training on the market, the serious student will do far better
to spend their money elsewhere. Don't settle for "whispering";
look to behaviorists and trainers who loudly and clearly offer
sound advice based on good understanding of learning theory
and behavior science: Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell, Jean
Donaldson, Pat Miller.
Their methods work, they foster communication and cooperation
between the species - and they won't harm you or your dog.
===============
Nothing new or useful,
May 7, 2006
Reviewer: joyousdog
Milan's methods may seem new and revolutionary to anyone
who has no experience in the world of dogs, but they are
not. In fact, most have long-since been deserted by dog
trainers who understand how learning really happens.
It is as if someone had achieved great popularity pushing
a fabulous new invention called the typewriter, embracing
the long-dead theory that "cold" mothers cause autism in
their children, or advocating smacking kindergarten kids
over the knuckles with a ruler as a magical way to teach
them the alphabet.
Nothing about it seems so horrible, to someone who is innocent
of the history of the subject at hand, and it is neatly packaged
to seem like a method. But a little knowledge easily shows the
flaws in it.
His calm, controlled demeanor is simply common sense to anyone
who works with animals, or, for that matter, anyone who teaches
anything. You could probably get that advice from a local trainer
in your town, or even an excellent parent or elementary school
teacher.
And, many trainers agree that exercise is good for dogs -
- that's hardly revolutionary. However, it is not a magical
cure-all for difficult dogs.
The rest of what he advocates, although it may seem to have
a philosophy and some organization, is just a mish-mash of
techniques with little logic behind them.
He has his set routines, and often does not notice that things
like "flooding" -- forcing a dog into a situation that it fears -
- is shutting it down with stress, not calming it down and easing
its fear.
The dog-human relationship need not include dominance rituals -
- dogs know we are not dogs. The "be alpha" stuff came from a
small bit of research on wolves, decades ago, that has long
since been supplanted, and has little bearing on pet dogs.
Life has made us the leaders -- we have control of the doors,
the food, the car, the toys, and everything else a dog wants -
- it is quite easy to change dogs' behavior, as long as we use
those things.
Our larger brains and some patience are the best tools to
train a dog. Actions like controlling the environment to
keep a dog out of trouble, figuring out what it finds
rewarding, and reinforcing behaviors you do want, are far
more effective, pleasant, and likely to build a good
relationship than Milan's techniques.
Check out the works of Karen Pryor, Pat Miller or Melissa
Alexander for better ideas about teaching, and Suzanne
Clothier, Ray and Lorna Coppinger, Jean Donaldson, or
Patricia McConnell for better insight into dogs. For
free advice, try the Clickersolutions.com site.
Dogs can learn self-control, voluntary compliance with our
wishes -- they need not be dominated, just taught. I want
my dogs actions to say "I'll do that!" not "I give up."
===================
A sad day in dog land...,
May 6, 2006
Reviewer: Barbara Davis "BADDogsInc" (Corona, CA)
If you want to take a ride to the 70s in a time machine, this
is the vehicle for you. Do your dog a favor, though, and leave
him right where he is, since Millan's 'philosophy' of dog/human
relationship management really won't be doing him much good.
If you're a big fan of the old school's outmoded alpha rolls,
or truly believe your dog is trying to dominate you while he's
cruising the counter looking for cookies, then you'll probably
enjoy this book a great deal.
If you do choose to buy this, you'll get a lot of the author's
biography and his own personal 'science' (that bears little or
no resemblance to any accepted science in the realms of learning
theory, dog training or behavior).
What you WON'T get is much information on dog training, or much
useful advice on how to fix any kind of dog behavior or dog/human
relationship problems.
Complex issues like separation anxiety rate a couple of paragraphs,
heavily vested in making sure the dog is exercised to exhaustion at
all times.
While I'm sure a dog that's physically depleted all the time is
much easier to handle, I'm not sure how many of us actually have
the ability to incorporate 6 hours of daily strenuous dog exercise
into our already crowded lives.
And besides, what role does an exhausted, 4-legged
zombie fill in your family circle?
The human/dog bond has evolved for thousands of years as a
richly textured relationship deserving of a great deal more
consideration than Millan's 'fast-food' analysis would suggest.
Your money would be better spent elsewhere...
=============
Customer Reviews
Depends on what you want
July 7, 2006
Reviewer: Dog Owner (Lake Mary, FL USA)
If you want to see Mr. Milan demonstrate his personal rapport
with animals, this DVD will fill the bill. However, if you are
seeking advice and instruction on how to overcome aggression
in your pet, this DVD will not be of much help.
The DVD is really nothing but an infommercial praising Mr.
Milan's talents. I seriously doubt that the dogs he works
with in the DVD maintain their non-aggressive behavior after
he leaves.
The strategies he uses, such as having the aggressive dog
walk beside his non-aggressive pack dog, are not practical
for the average dog owner.
If someone were going to hire Mr. Milan as a personal dog
trainer, this item would certainly serve as a recommendation,
but it is woefully lacking as step-by-step instruction on how
to overcome aggression in a dog.
-------------------------
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>There are other reasons and benefits to take dogs on walks, yes, and I
>do take my dogs on walks for those reasons, but not for 45 minutes a
>day and not for exercise, which is what the discussion was about, or
>so I read it.
I agree. Walks are part of life, but they sure don't give my crew
"exercise". I never walk around my neighborhood. I've done it of
course, but don't find it all that entertaining or beneficial. I'd
much rather take the dogs swimming, field training, flyball, agility,
trips, etc. and engage in yard play (some on their own, some with me
throwing a ball).
I take my dogs along with me at random, and they get to do a lot of
things. But because they aren't walked 45 minutes a day, I'm not
giving them what they need? Hardly.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>But because they aren't walked 45 minutes a day, I'm not
>giving them what they need?
Truthfully, Janet.
Do you think Millan was talking about somebody like you?
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I agree. Walks are part of life, but they sure don't give
> my crew "exercise". I never walk around my neighborhood.
> I've done it of course, but don't find it all that
> entertaining or beneficial.
Every once in a while, I walk my dogs around the neighbourhood
just so that my neighbours see them with me, know where they
come from, and learn that they're friendly. It's insurance,
though they've never wandered off. It's certainly not exercise
- they get that running off-leash and swimming in the river.
I walk my daycare dogs around the neighbourhood all of the time.
It's a sensory explosion for them, but again, not exercise
(except for little Timmie).
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
HOWEDY paula you miserable stinkin lyin dog an
child abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case,
Paula wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:11:25 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I didn't agree with her that letting your dog out in the
> > backyard is enough exercise for the dog; I believe all
> > dogs should be walked.
Most would probably LIKE that as would they likeWIZE enjoy
a off leash run in the woods or park. HOWEver, those are
only a couple OPTIONS for EXXXORCISE, not trainin or behavior
modification TOOLS like your pronged spiked pinch choke and
shock collars, paula you miserable stinkin lyin dog an child
abusing active acute chronic long term incurable mental case.
> > No not all dogs are the same; some very small dogs don't
> > need as much exercise as a larger breed or a very active
> > dog, but they are the same as getting the need for more
> > stimulation to their brains from walking and checking
> > their (pee mail as my husband calls it) of other dogs;
That's all well an good for PLEASURE.
> > I believe that is what they like doing the most, walking
> > and sniffing; then they come home satisfied and quieter.
For some dogs. Others get MOORE EXXXCITED.
> > It makes for a happier dog and a happier owner.
Probably so, most of the time.
> Now see, this is where it pays to know the dogs.
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
> Sally's dogs would be in grave danger with your exercise
> method of 45 minute off lead walks in the forest. They
> are greyhounds,
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing GRAND Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual <{): ~ ) >
> which as a breed can't be trusted not to run after critters
> and get in trouble and/or lost if walked around off lead.
Oh? You mean racetrack silly and her deathly ill Gray HOWENDS
have proven Pavlov DEAD WRONG, paula? Are you sayin GH's AIN'T
ABLE to be handled and trained JUST LIKE HOWE ANY OTHER DOG IS?
LIKE THE PIT BULL, FOR EXXXAMPLE, paula?
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
It's on accHOWENT of dog and child abusing mental cases
like yourself that we're hurtin intimidatin an murderin
innocent defenseless dumb people all over the WHOWEL WILD
WORLD, you know, paula <{): ~ ( >
> In addition, greyhounds are sprinters.
You mean they won't run far when you can't call them back, paula?
You mean LIKE THIS?:
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAI
Sunshine is still acting like a new dog! Saw a dog
today and "good boy-" worked along with calling him-
came the first time every time. Not even a sound out
of him. Think it is hard for him but he never even
seemed to think about going off-reacting. I would
love to write a testimonial but can not seem to find
the site--please send the address--
The word come has no affect on him just the phrase-
-Sunshine come goodboy.
-------------
ballzde...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well I am happy to reply that so far after 10
> minutes of work and the cans from mr Howes guide,
You mean
The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
> I have instilled the "come" command to Riley.
Good. You mean INSTALLED the come command as
a conditional reflex. Be SHORE to perform the
EXXXORCISES four times in each of four locations.
> He is an extremley smart dog, I have never had
> to go to the third or fourth try.
Good. DON'T SKIP ANY THING in your FREE COPY of
The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
-------------
From: "BarbnBeau" <bdea...@cogeco.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:52:30 -0500
Re: Puppy Wizard's Website
Hi Buzzsaw
Not a Thing to lose ...But a Lot To Gain!!
I can only speak from my experience.. I have a 8 month
old miniature poodle, and although I had done some basic
training with him we had a few barking issues ..ugh
I am happy to tell you, I contacted Jerry at the email
addy I posted and he was so great! I wasn't following
the technique precisely but he helped me get back on track.
Beau is doing sooooo well it is really a thrill working
with him, and seeing the remarkable changes.
Now I can ask for "recall" (come) both on and off lead
and it is immediate!
the first time I ask.
Best of Luck to you,
Remember if you need help or explanation contact Jerry ..
he will be more than happy to help anyway he can.
Cheers
Barb
-------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').
Best, ben
===================
OR LIKE THIS:
"Leprechaun" <Leprech...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:m01Hc.20882$uK.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>Jerry believes he's a dog trainer.
Fortunately, I happen to believe he is too.
I took a rescued three year old beagle that
had been kept outside all of its life that didn't
even recognize or respond to its name to
Jerry's home (That ugly cinder block shack???
get real) and in just over one hour of working
with the dog, he was coming on command
(not a quickly as he does now, but still...) and
walking with us on a loose lead.
His "hot/cold" exercise and "come when called"
command and pack exercise WORK!
> and in all likelihood he's never even been near a dog.
Well, he's been near mine, and done wonders for him.
You don't have to like him. You don't have
to agree with his methods, but as far as I
am concerned, I've never seen any other
training approach that was as fast and easy.
<<<< Rest of original post deleted >>>>
Ron Flanagan
Orlando, Florida
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: <>
To: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leadership Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had
him for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book
training with him. Where I used to say "come" and
then say "good boy" when he obeyed, I have reversed
it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work.
He was very confused at first, wondering what he
had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks,
N
------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:06 AM
Hello.
I never posted here (or anywhere) before.
I never trained or owned a dog before this
year.
I downloaded the Wit's End, read it, corresponded
with Mr. Howe and trained my dog to come and to
stop barking in a weekend.
Our dog, Jake, had been treated with kindness the
whole time we had him, about 10 months, but his
earlier life is unknown.
I worked on the hot-cold exercise for about 30
minutes when he suddenly "got it". After that
he came to me every time with no hesitation.
I used the cans filled with pennies to teach him
not to bark. If he now starts to bark, I go to the
door or window, say "Good Boy, its' alright" and
he usually calms down right away.
A couple of times I had to get the cans
out again to reinforce the behavior.
We feel a strong bond with this animal
and he is very eager to accept our love.
So with all the vitriolic spewing going on,
I have to believe Mr. Howe is right.
His method worked for us.
I don't know if it would have been quite
as effective if we had tried another method first.
Florence
==================
> They are not happy or healthy walking around as
> fast as a person can take them on leash.
You mean like HOWE they DO when they're walked for twenty
minutes in front of the crHOWED at the racetrack, paula?
OR do you mean on accHOWENT Of they'll attack innocent
passersbye?
LIKE THIS:
HOWEDY paula,
Paula wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2005 11:25:32 -0700, drew...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > With that, I have a few questions regarding in-boarding
> > training. I would like to hear good and bad experiences
> > with this.
>
> > 1 - Does it work with a normal family member type dog?
> > I see this working well with bomb dogs, drug dogs, etc...
> > But, would it be suitable to have your dog trained
> > professionaly by using this method?
>
> I think it depends on the circumstances.
That so? Don't you think LUCK got as much to
do with it as CIRCUMSTANCE, paula?
> I took one of my dogs to a facility like that
INDEED?
> because she had fear aggression problems with men.
Naaah? Surprise, surprise, surprise?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
> Since we had no men in our household (divorced
Well THAT'S understandable enough for a good Mormon.
> with daughters and no sons),
You're a dog and child abuser, paula.
> it was hard for me to work on it
No. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to "work with it".
> but I couldn't take her out in the meantime because
> she would freak out if the wrong person walked by.
Oh? Well THAT'S on accHOWENT of you WAS CHOKIN HER
to PROTECT the innocent passerbye, you mental case.
> These were reputable trainers
THAT SO?
> with a good facility
No DHOWET!
> who had her fed and cared for in every way by male
> handlers and also trained with positive methods
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
> by male handlers.
And THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM for her... YOU had a PROBLEM.
> Actually, she already had good obedience skills,
THAT SO?
> but building that kind of relationship with men was
> part of teaching her that men could be caregivers and
> trustworthy and kind leaders as well as whatever the
> men in her past had taught her they could be.
That's a load of CRAP. Dogs GET their confidence from
being pupperly handled by their OWNERS. Whatever went
on with those "PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS" have NO BEARING
on her FUTURE BEHAVIOR when YOU ARE ABUSING HER and
THEY AIN'T THERE to HURT HER ENOUGH to make her RESPECT
and TRUST men <{); ~ ) >
> It did a lot in a lot shorter time than I could
> in my circumstances at home.
Yeah, but THAT'S on accHOWENT of you're a IDIOT.
should take WON DAY to train ANY dog NOT TO FEAR ANY THING.
> I still take my dog to their facility for boarding when
> they have space and I need to board them because they are
> good with dogs and exercise their minds as well as their
> bodies while I am gone.
That so?
You think the "TRAINER" is gonna WORK your dog FOR FREE
just on accHOWENT of you're a BOARDIN custmer? You're
HALUCINATING, paula. Trainers GET PAID BY THE MINUTE
they spend with your dog, paula.
THEY DON'T WORK FOR FREE.
> As for basic obedience training, I would say that if
> you are going to board your dog anyway because you are
> going on vacation or something, then why not also have
> some training going on?
On accHOWENT of MOST "trainers" are DOG ABUSERS, like yourself.
> As I said, it is nice to have the dog's mind
> exercised as well as its body getting some exercise.
That so? You REALLY THINK your "TRAINER" is gonna WORK
A BOARDING DOG FOR FREE, paula? Naaah, you're NUTS.
Ooops! So sorry..., no offense meant. Just callin a spade a spade.
> If you are not going anywhere, it can still work out
> if you and the trainer are committed to working on
> your relationship with the dog as well,
That so? You mean, communicating through your pronged
spiked pinch choke collar, catherine?
> but you miss out on some of the bonding that happens
> while you learn to communicate to your dog what you
> want and lead it to those AHA! moments.
THAT SO? You mean, like HOWE you did when you MISSED HOWET
on the BONDING process while your own FEAR AGGRESSIV MAN
SHY dog was being jerked and choked and probably shocked
to make it FEAR GETTIN CHOKED and SHOCKED MOORE than men?
> If you think that the dog is going to go away for a couple
> of weeks and come back the perfect dog from then on, you
> are wasting your money.
SHHHAAAZZZAAAMMM???
> As the board/train person I sent my dog to says, obedience
> is a dance. If your dog knows the steps but you don't, at
> best you'll get a confused dog. At worst, you'll get a dog
> that thinks it has to behave while at the training facility
> but is back to disobedience as usual when it goes back home.
Are mentally ill Mormons allHOWED to DANCE?
> --
> Paula
=====================
> OTOH, her dogs, being greyhounds,
Are locked in boxes and jerked choked an shocked as necessary
JUST LIKE HOWE you do your own fear aggressive hyperactive
HOWETA CON-TROLL dogs, paula you lyin dog abusing fraud.
> love to sprint around open areas and do so
> when she lets them out into the fenced yard.
No. They run from anXXXXIHOWESNESS when they're turned
HOWET into their SHOCK FENCE protectd yard on accHOWENT
of otherWIZE these TERRORTORIAL creatures would ESCAPE
seekin new terrortory where they ain't jerked choked
shocked sprayed in the face with aversives surgically
sexually mutilated and murdered when apupriate.
LIKE THIS:
Sally Hennessey
Sally Hennessey
> So the best exercise for her dogs is not what is best for your dogs
You mean turnin them HOWET to run arHOWEND
frantick in fear of the shock fenced yard?
> or what Cesar apparently says is best for all dogs.
You mean THIS?:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
> I have some little dogs, who can get plenty of exercise
> on walks, but they still like to chase each other around
> and wrestle.
Your own dogs are hyperactive and HOWETA CON-TROLL. Didn't your
dog scare the neighbor's kids while you walked IT on leash?
> My big dogs would never get enough exercise from walks
> even if I ran as fast as I could for as long as I could.
> I can't let them off lead to run back and forth and to
> chase other dogs because there are leash laws here
You mean on accHOWENT of your dogs will fight.
LIKE THIS:
"I was bit breaking up a fight, the dogs were in mutual
combat mode. In mutual combat, they are trying to pin
and bite each other while at the same time avoiding
having any of that done to themselves. IT is fast and
furious, with body parts flailing. In addition, the
other dog has not decided yet that it should submit,
but is still in the mode of trying to win this fight
and teach that other bitch a lesson.
Disabling whichever dog you can grab may end up with
the other dog coming in your direction, teeth bared.
In my case, my dog responded immediately when I threw
a fear of god no at her because she respects me.
The other dog, however, was more concerned with using
that opening to get a good attack in on Diva than she
was with what I, a relative stranger, might do if she
didn't respond to me.
Perhaps the dog you have by the butt can't turn around
and bite you, but the other one can. At least the dog
I was involved with got my leg instead of my face since
I didn't have myself down at butt level."
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:43:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas.
I don't leave them all together, though. They have to
be in separate parts of the house when I leave and if
I don't have control over the dogs. I think it will work
out eventually that they will be able to roam, especially
with a strategically placed baby gate arrangement for extra
insurance.
Is that usually the case if the initial introductions go well?
I am thinking that I will continue to lengthen out the
time and exposure and go to no leash but right there with
dog and with baby gate escape nearby, etc., and will be
fine even if they never can be alone all together, but it
would be nice if I didn't have to worry about it all the
time, especially with kids who can leave doors open even
if I remember to close them.
--
Paula
"LIE FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND AND RUN AWAY! You can DO it!"
---Beable van Polasm
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:32:03 GMT
Local: Mon,Apr 25 2005 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: Introducing a new dog to a timid old dog
You cannot let either dog tell you who you can play
with or pet. If the puppy interrupts your playing
with the older dog, tell him "no" and go on playing
with the older dog. If the younger dog tries to nip
the older dog, tell him no and reassure the older dog.
I am not convinced that you can position one dog to be alpha.
It doesn't sound like your older dog wants to be
alpha since he backs off and defers. OTOH, it
sounds like the younger one does want to be alpha.
There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't have
to go by age. I let my dogs choose who is alpha,
but I only let them do so in certain ways.
For example, they are not allowed to snark at each
other or guard resources like the food or my attention.
I am the true alpha, so I get to decide who gets to
eat and who gets my attention and they have to live
with that. My alpha dog will give warning growls
to an uppity dog in the household and that is allowed,
but a nip would never be allowed and she knows it.
If she starts getting to that point, I correct her
and make her behave. If she tries to inappropriately
take over, I put her in her place.
She also tries to keep the other dogs away from me
and feels she should get all the attention. For the
most part, the other dogs in my house would be like
your older dog and just back off.
However, I will correct Diva and make the lower status
dogs stay with me and be petted rather than backing off
to prove the point that I will pet whom I please and
snarking will only get Diva less of what she wants
instead of more.
Not being alpha will not necessarily make your older
dog unhappy, but being bullied as she is being now will.
So concentrate on what behaviors you accept or don't
accept rather than on who is alpha or not.
--
Paula
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:30:04
Subject: Re: ping leah
Lacey simply cannot resist a good piece of cardboard.
Do you know how many things are made out of cardboard?
I don't want to be constantly reminded, which is why
she is still crated at night.
--
Paula
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 02:17:33 GMT
Subject: Re: 2 points about bad advice (in response to leah's
detractors)
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:32:47 - 0500, sighthounds etc.
<greypigho...@ncweb.com> wrote:
> You have Dals, right? That breed seems to have a problem
> with dog-dog aggression, though you don't see it in English
> lines. The instigator in our bitch fights was a Dal.
I only have one Dal left, but most of my fosters were Dals and the
most dog-aggressive were Dals. I started to think that Dals were
racist or something as they often had a huge problem with all dogs
except for Dals. Except for Diva, the one Dal I have left. She
had problems with all dogs PERIOD. She's a psycho, but I love her,
bitchiness, moodiness, fear aggression issues, incontinence issues
and all.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent> -
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:03:03 GMT
Subject: Re: people piss me off
Diva is very dominant but also very insecure.
That is a very dangerous combination.
Whatever the reason for this dog's hackles,
it is a tragedy waiting to happen.
--
Paula
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:11:05 GMT
Subject: Re: my brother's dog
As a matter of fact, this little chi mix that had
been fairly shy and submissive decided to take Diva
on last night over something.
That could have been disastrous.
But I already had it set up that I was there to supervise
any time the new dog was with the other dogs and I know
Diva well. Bless her heart, she pinned Livvie flat, but
didn't put a tooth on her.
Do you know that your dogs would do that should they
get pissed off at the new dog? I did because Diva
has gone over the edge before and has learned that
she can pin a dog to teach it a lesson, but not a
single thing more.
I also knew that when I told her to leave her alone and
come, she would, which she did even though Livvie went
yapping after her as soon as she was let up.
At that point, I took over teaching Livvie to knock
it off and cooling her off in her crate all the while
explaining to my daughter what I was doing and why.
The other dogs knew to keep their noses out of it
because they've been down this road before, too.
I already have a counter surfer and a couple of trash
raiders, so the hatches were battened down. Poor dog
doesn't even get a chance to be naughty a first time!
She did find a piece of tin foil on the ground at the
school that she was fascinated by. I wonder if it was
lingering smell, shape (rolled in a ball), reflection
or what.
I didn't try a ball with her because Diva might decide
to hate her for that reason alone. Damn usurpers coming
in and stealing ball time with mom!
Diva hasn't decided to hate her at this point and
I don't want that to change.
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:35:39 GMT
Local: Thurs,Jan 8 2004 6:35 pm
Subject: Re: Not another one!
Dalmatians seem to be breedist as well and Diva
doesn't even like other dalmatian bitches for
the most part. She is fine with the mix that
we've got and a firm hand and strict rules, but
I don't really want to push it.
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
> Wed,Dec 17 2003
Subject: Re: MacKenzie
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:59:02 -0600, Gwen Watson
<g...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote:
>shelly wrote:
>> that sounds familiar. harriet doesn't like sharing
>> me with the cats or with elliott. left to her own
>> devices, she'd run them all off. obviously, that's
>> Not Allowed.
>> --shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and
>> harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
> The above sounds very familiar to me. Harriet
> sounds just like Clovis. And that is exactly
> how she behaves.
Sounds like Diva, too. She has learned that she does
not choose who will be petted when and by whom any more
than she chooses who gets to live here. She is sooooo
put upon, the poor misunderstood soul who is just trying
to get all the morons around here to understand the natural
order of things.
I don't know why she wants me when I try her patience so,
the poor long-suffering saint.
Note to Leah: Be careful with the dogs even when you are
not home and even when you think they will not "turn on you."
If she has decided to make a play for dominance, you may
be the most important resource to guard, but not necessarily
the only one. Also, she may not ever "turn on you" or hurt
you deliberately, but you can get hurt anyway just being in
the middle of a show-down.
I don't recommend grabbing collars as the next stop after
telling her to chill out. Practice your Fear of God knock
that off immediately voice as much as you have already
practiced your cheery come here voice and plan out in
advance some ways to break up fights without getting in
there like you need to in order to grab a collar and pull
one of them off.
If you don't need it, you can still use that list in training.
If you do need it, you'll be glad you thought it through
before you ended up needing it.
-- Paula
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology
From: mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 04:39:47
Subject: Re: Kibo is Bone-Eating Circus Monkey
Theresa Willis <tdwil...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There is only one expert in the world when it comes to
> deciding what is a good training tool for your dog. Just
> one, and that is your dog.
> The trick is to pay attention and let your
> dog tell you what works.
> This is tricky, because we all bring preconceptions to
> training, and it can be hard to Leave Your Philosophy
> At The Door.
It's even trickier when you have multiple dogs who
are all completely different in personality. I have
often wondered if Lacey would do well with an ecollar.
She hates to have anyone mad at her. I think she'd
rather be shocked by a strange inanimate object than
looked at disapprovingly by one of her humans.
I haven't tried one, though, because it takes lots
of work to learn how to do it right and I am lazy.
Then I have Diva who will look at you like she's
sorry or like she's trying to figure out if she
can still get away with it whether you correct
her in a soft way or scream obscenities at the
top of your lungs.
Same exact reaction. Dutchie is just looking
for lovin' and not too worried about how he's
getting it.
Pay him no attention and he straightens up FAST.
Love all over another dog and he frantically does
all his tricks to try to get some of the action.
Lilly is motivated by nothing. Sometimes she gets
hungry, but mostly she only cares about lying around
looking annoyed at the other dogs and their shenanigans.
She used to romp around with them. Now she is an old fart.
I think you should send Harlan out here to play.
--
Paula
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:19:59 GMT
Subject: Re: New dog, need reassurance
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:56:00 +0000 (UTC), ceb <c...@virginia.edu>
wrote:
> And if so, what >would you do differently?
It is the hard and fast rule in my house of multiple dogs
and multiple bitches, including one who is dog-aggressive
and bossy and dominant, that I make the decisions as to
whom I will pet, feed, or whatever at any and all times.
If I pet a more submissive one first, the dominant one is
not allowed to object. That is not her place since she is
not the true alpha, I am.
I also don't allow any snarking at all and no wrestling,
even in fun, in the house. We have a visitor in our
house that is part chihuahua and part I don't know what
right now who is barky and nippy to the big dogs.
Diva is allowed to correct her appropriately for
inappropriate behavior, but not to give her any
big smack-down and not to demand that the humans
stop cuddling the itty bitty interloper to pay
more attention to her.
She looks at me like she is the most long-suffering
creature on the planet, but she respects my rules
and behaves.
If she doesn't, then she is crated and gets none
of the attention, so she learns that it is better
to take turns than to be push the issue.
She's not stupid so she has learned to let me handle
things and do things my way.
I don't think she would have lasted in a multi-dog
household without that structure, but she does
wonderfully with all kinds of dogs with that structure.
It also makes life manageable and sane for me and my kids.
-- Paula "Or if you really want to meet me just take the
NJT to 78, take 78 to 24, take 24 until it runs out, and
then just drive around listening for the sound of quietly
smoldering rage." Ben Allard
--------------------
> and not all dogs are good chase companions,
Particularly when they attack their playmates.
> especially the ones whose owners ignore leash
> laws in a neighborhood like mine.
Yeah. Didn't you watch your neighbor's dog get run DHOWEN?
> They do, however, love to run around the back yard
> chasing each other and wrestling, which wears them out.
You mean when they ain't escaping.
> If they don't want to be out there
> without me, I go out with them, I don't let them back into the house,
> put a leash on them and go for a walk. That would be silly.
>
> --
> Paula
From: Paula
Date: Fri, Feb 4 2005 6:54 pm
Email: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent>
On 04 Feb 2005 03:46:54 GMT, dfrntdr...@aol.com (Leah) wrote:
>> Paula mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent wrote:
>> You might want to rethink that as your first line of defense,
>> especially if you haven't yet broken up a real dog fight.
> I haven't. I've broken up skirmishes, but never a real fight
> where dogs were doing each other damage. Why? Seems like it
> would be relatively safe, since it's hard for a dog to reach
> his butt with his mouth without lying down.
Okay, so you are a dog trainer who has been asked to give advice to
Catherine about what to do with her dogs, given the facts she has
given you, and also must decide what to do should students' dogs get
into a fight in your presence. You are also a dog owner who has to
decide what she will do with her own dogs should they get into a
serious fight. You recommend putting thumbs up butts. Let's see how
that plays out.
In your role as advisor via ng to Catherine, you have a woman who has
stated in her posts that both dogs were going after each other and, in
fact, she is not even sure which one actually bit her. You have also
acknowledged that putting thumbs up the butts of both dogs is not
going to work out. So, you are saying to grab a dog and stick a thumb
up its butt. First problem is the one that Catherine experienced.
She has already told you that she knew better than to rant and rave,
that it would only make things worse, but in the heat of the moment,
she forgot all about that. How likely is it that in that same heat of
the moment, someone is going to do something as counterintuitive as
finding a butthole and sticking a thumb into it?
How are you going to find the butthole on a fluffy cockerchow who is
wrestling and writhing? What are the dogs going to do while you are
concentrating more on their butts than on the big picture?
As I recall, this method was discussed in the context of a dog that
has your dog pinned and won't let go. That's a different case from
the mutual combat described. When one has another pinned, they are
relatively still and you might well be able to find and poke a small
anatomical feature.
You might well also be able to disable the aggressive dog without
having to worry about the other dog coming after you (either you
personally or you because you are standing there butt to hand with
the dog they are after).
The one time I was bit breaking up a fight, the dogs were in mutual
combat mode. In mutual combat, they are trying to pin and bite each
other while at the same time avoiding having any of that done to
themselves. IT is fast and furious, with body parts flailing.
In addition, the other dog has not decided yet that it should submit,
but is still in the mode of trying to win this fight and teach that
other bitch a lesson. Disabling whichever dog you can grab may end
up with the other dog coming in your direction, teeth bared.
In my case, my dog responded immediately when I threw a fear of god
no at her because she respects me. The other dog, however, was more
concerned with using that opening to get a good attack in on Diva
than she was with what I, a relative stranger, might do if she didn't
respond to me.
Perhaps the dog you have by the butt can't turn around and bite you,
but the other one can. At least the dog I was involved with got my
leg instead of my face since I didn't have myself down at butt level.
Another difference is that the ones I have seen advocating the butt
plug method have experience. If you have practiced it on skirmishing
dogs (even if you don't actually stick your finger in), maybe you can
feel confident having that as your plan should a fight break out.
If you haven't, pick something closer to home and less tricky in the
execution or you may be in need of a plan B without having really come
up with one because you thought you had it handled under a theoretical
but not entirely practical for you plan A.
Additionally, those are some pretty tender areas
you are dealing with there.
Especially a woman with nails could hurt a dog poking
into areas that are thin membranes instead of thick
skin and fur. It would be wonderful to take your dog
to the vet to check it for wounds only to find out that
the only puncture wound it received in the fight was
owner inflicted and in an area prone to infection,
never mind explaining to your dog why pooping has
suddenly become a painful experience.
Scrape yourself there and see how it feels the next time you
have business to take care of. Would I risk that in order to
save a dog from another dog that would not let go?
Sure because the risk analysis weighs in that direction.
Would I use it as my first action when coming upon a dog fight?
No. That would be a plan B or C, with fear of god voice (which
has broken up most fights I've witnessed) and an object put between
them so that they get it instead of the other dog or me and/or
something loud to bang and distract them, coming in as my first
line of defense.
When it comes to you and your personal dogs, all of the above also
applies. This also brings up a concern I have with how you have been
dealing with your dogs' skirmishes, though. Defend away, as I expect
it, but I won't argue it with you. The point is for you to think
about it, not for me to argue it with you. Do what you will with the
thought. You don't seem to have established any kind of authority.
Rewarding the dog by petting, etc. when not snarking or growling is
good, managing the situation is good, none of what you have done is
bad, but your apparent fear of corrections is leaving a hole.
Corrections don't have to be draconian or cruel to give the dog a
sense of what is not allowed to add to the sense they get from what
you reward as what is expected. If I had never been told not to play
in the street or I could get hit and killed by a car, I would not be
as likely to stay out of the street. You can give me popsicles as
long as I stay on the sidewalk and only play with me when I am on
sidewalk for years and I will certainly learn that it is better to
play with you on the sidewalk than on the street. But when someone
else calls me to come play in the street, especially if they have a
box full of better popsicles than yours, I'm outta there.
I wouldn't even know I was doing anything wrong, never mind that I
was doing something dangerous. All I would have learned is that there
are benefits to staying off the street, not that there are
consequences,
and dangerous ones at that, to not doing so. Now, I am not willing to
let my dogs get run over or beaten up by other dogs to let them learn
the consequences of running in streets or fighting with other dogs.
They aren't verbal enough for me to explain the dangers to them,
either. So I insert consequences that I can control so that they get
the point across without any risk of actual harm to the dog. Because
they have heard my fear of god voice and know that it means business,
and is actually reserved for serious business, they respond.
Even Diva, the dog looking for a good fight and whining when she
isn't allowed to take a snot-nosed punk of a pup down when they're
asking for it, obeys. I think you are lacking that kind of
authoritative
command and relationship with your dogs that would make it unnecessary
to stick foreign objects up their asses should they some day decide
they will take what they want from their dog sisters and not wait for
you to give or take away. They have shown enough aggressive behavior
that even though they haven't had anything nasty break out, this
worries me.
Again, take it for what it's worth.
They are your dogs and it's your life.
--
Paula
HOWEDY paula you miserable stinkin lyin dog an
child abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case,
Paula wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2006 11:49:39 -0700, "star...@aol.com" <star...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I do not know Matt, and was asking him for a on his post to me.
> > I was not accusing him or attacking him. I understand it can be
> > hard to read "tone" but I really dont ever intend to seem harsh.
Well, PERHAPS Crystal SHOULD attack matty for bein a misterable
stinkin lyin dog abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case and FRAUD, like yourself, paula <{): ~
( >
> > Crystal
>
> Crystal, then you say that Matt is putting
> his business ahead of the dogs,
matty's BUSINESS is takin care of dogs who CAN'T
STAY in their own HOWESES unsupervised, paula, ON
ACCHOWENT OF THEY AIN'T TRAINED PUPPERLY.
> that is attacking.
Perhaps it's just the TRUTH, paula?
Dogs DO NOT NEED "doggy day care", paula,
UNLESS THEY AIN'T TRAINED PUPPERLY <{): ~ ) >
matty could TELL his ILLEGAL DOGGY DAY CARE CASH
CUSTOMERS HOWE to TRAIN their dogs pupperly, paula,
if matty truly CARED abHOWET his CASH CUSTOMER'S
DOGS MOORE than he CARES abHOWET their DOGGY DAY
CARE MONEY, paula.
LIKE THIS:
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Hoku Beltz
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: Mahalo
Aloha Jerry,
Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy
technique is working wonders. I have not had a
shredded sheet for over a week now. It is nice
to be able to leave the bed made and come home
to a made bed.
Your program is awesome, but you already
know that. Keep up the good work!
Hoku
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Chris Williams (k9ap...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry
and have spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his
business. I simply want to thank him publicly for
one of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed
animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but
I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it.
Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic.
Thank you Jerry!
-------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Hoku Beltz" <h...@rsphawaii.com> wrote in message
Aloha Sunny,
Just follow the training program to the
letter, no matter how insignificant some
of the step seem to be and your pupy will
be a very well behaved dog in a few days.
I would seriously consider backing out of
the training classes as they will conflict
with the Wit's End principles.
I went the training route first, and still
had problems until I found Wits' End.
Now I have two "new and improved" dogs.
You won't be disappointed if you follow
the program.
Good luck,
Hoku
------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Anthony Testa" <testa52...@aol.com> wrote in message
We came home to almost $1,000 in damage.
Furniture, the blinds were all chewed and torn
down, etc. The next day we put her in the crate
again. This time we came home to a nice 2' x 3'
hole in our carpet in the middle of the living room,
right down to the cement.
I told my wife that we cannot afford to keep this dog.
We should go out and get a puppy.
<SNIP>
First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started
doing exactly what he said to do in the manual.
Exactly as we did was was written, the results were
exactly as he said it would be. Then we purchased
the DDR.
This is an amazing god send to us.
First of all, Jerry sent it to us without paying. (thanks
for that gesture) This has such and AMAZING effect.
This testimonial is kind of winded so I will say this......
Jerry's product literally saved this dogs life.
Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry
told us the product works immediately and it did! She
does not bark at all during the day except when the
mailman drops mail into the slot on the door.
The manual for training works exactly as it says!
<SNIP>
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would galdly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help.
God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida
----------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "LESPERANCE/DEAKIN" <madea...@total.net>
Date: 1999/10/06
Subject: Re: Separation Anxiety
Well Jerry, I have to hand it to you. It worked!
Our dog was very well behaved until I had to go on the
road for my work this summer. I was gone twice for 10
long days each time. Although there were still people
home, I am the "primary care-giver" to my dog, so he
became destructive (shoes, books, rugs, papers etc)
We have a crate, but I believe it is too small for him
now - he is a cross golden/gsd and when he sits or stands
he cannot hold his head up as the top is too low, so I
didn't want to crate him while I went to work for sometimes
8 hours.
Anyway, I decided to try your method with the toy.
I would find a toy, tell it to be good and place it in
his crate. After just 3 days, there was no more destruction
in the house - even when daughter or hubby forgot to put
their shoes away! Now the toy stays in the crate all day,
and he even crawls in to be with the "good toy" when I leave.
He seems quite proud when we come home.
I have not tried the can thing - don't quite understand
that, so I think my dog may be confused too!
Marcie (Winslow's mom)
-------------
HOWEDY Robin,
Robin wrote:
> Success!
Of curse. You GOT your 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT
SUCCESS on your first use of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
Surrogate Toy Separation AnXXXIHOWESNESS / Bed Time Calming /
Fear Of Thunder / Submissive Urination / Car Sickness Technique
JUST LIKE HOWE all them other 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students whom HOWER DOG LOVERS call LIARS and their posts
FORGERIES <{); ~ ) >
> I left for about 25 minutes, and when I returned and walked
> thru the front door - no dog standing there waiting for me!
INDEEDY.
As sharon too veterinary office manager and mrs veterinarian
sez "you might wanna take it to private email..."
> No barking, no whimpering - no anything.
Of curse not. Separation anXXXIHOWESNESS is CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING. HOWER method WILL NOT WORK for these
dog lovers, Robin, on accHOWENT of NUTHING will over-
come the RESULT of even occasional use of ANY pain
fear force intimidation bribery or avoidance method
<{); ~ ) >
The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method is a GESTALT. You CANNOT pick and
choose through what you LIKE and continue to rely
on other methods like JUST TELLIN THE DOG "NO!"
on accHOWENT of it INCREASES anXXXIHOWESNESS and
MISTRUST <{);~ ) >
The alpha theory is INVALID.
> In fact, no dog!
She's comfortable...
> I got worried, looking all over for her.
Perhaps you're gettin a little OCD?
> I found her asleep (yes, asleep!!!!) on a pile of
> clothing that was on the floor in my second bedroom.
Is she not allHOWED in there? You could train
her not to go in there in just a couple of
minutes. The Amazing Puppy Wizard's dogs NEVER
go into Mrs. The Amazing Puppy Wizard's sewin
room, door or no door, they don't think of it.
> I left a tape recorder running while I was gone,
> but, without realizing it, I had it set to Voice
> Activation - and it hadn't been activated! I
> don't think she made a sound while I was gone.
Of curse not. THAT'S HOWE COME you DID the Surrogate
Toy Technique <{); ~ ) >
> I almost feel ready to give it a big test -
> leave her at home while I go to a movie,
Time is irrelevent immaterial and inconsequential.
Unless you're gone long enough to EXXXCEED her
needs for a break, food, water, etc, physical needs.
> which I haven't been able to do since I got
> her a little over one year ago.
HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks of age.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard has been training puppys
withHOWET EVER being crated for over forty years
and they WORK protecting their HOWESES by six months
of age.
Most EVERY THING the EXXXPERTS tell us abHOWET dogs
IS DEAD WRONG, as you've just PROVEN for yourself.
> Both times I employed your technique over the
> last couple of days, I did so at night.
Although dogs are creatures of habit, it won't
matter when you're gone. Dogs habituate themselves
to routines EZ. THAT'S HOWE COME it's SO EZ to
HABITUATE or TRAIN them to ANY new routine. Kinda
JUST LIKE KIDS <{); ~ ) > And THAT'S where we're
goin NEXT, Robin, to PROVE it's the same same for
dogs as the same same for kids, usin your own
POSTED CASE HISTORY <{); ~ ) >
> Just because I need to satisfy myself that this is real,
You might wanna do what The Amazing Puppy Wizard does.
HE asks HIS Mrs. to PINCH HIM. She won't. She's NOT
GONNA HURT HIM. So The Amazing Puppy Wizard comes here.
WELCOME!
> I'm going to leave during the day for awhile.
O.K., but you may want to do The Technique four
times to make SHORE it's installed fully pryor
to EXXXTRAPOLATING it to the next "environment"
to insure 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS.
> I know you'll say it won't make any difference,
No, it won't. HOWEver, there MAY be a disturbance
like a lawn care guy or sumpthin like a door to
door person sellin sumpthin could disturb her.
She SHOULD BARK when you are NOT there, and BE
SILENT when you ARE there. The idea is, when
she's alone we WANT the dog to bark to scare
away someWON. When we're THERE, we want her to
TELL US so we can DO SUMPTHIN MOORE EFFECTIVE
than ALERTING or SCARING AWAY someWON who'd be
unkindly towards us <{); ~ ) >
> but gotta do it, gotta test it, gotta assure
> myself that this is real.
NO PROBLEM. Just ask the EXXXPERTS what they think.
Ask sharon too mrs veterinarian HOWE MUCH does she
charge for ANTI-PSYCHOTIC PHARMACUTICALS and the
EXXXAM your dog would NEED if you came to her office.
Ask matty HOWE COME he AIN'T HAPPY you got your
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS CURING
your 12 year old rescue dog's severe separation
anXXXIHOWESNESS.
Ask them punks HOWE COME they'd DENY your dog
peace heelth and a sense of well being, just
so they can MAKE MONEY off of misadvising and
lying to people on accHOWENT of they're dog
abusing mental cases, wouldn't you agree?
> Robin
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> You act like he can't be doing both
You and your punk thug coward active acute
chronic long term incurable mental case pal
matty are liars and dog abusing cowards.
> when, in fact, he takes exceptionally good care of his own dogs
This AIN'T abHOWET his own ABUSED dogs, paula. This
is abHOWET his ILLEGAL DOGGY DAY CARE CUSTOMERS he's
CHEATIN HOWETA their hard earned dough, paula.
> and the dogs that he cares for as part of his business.
matty's a liar a coward a fraud and a thief.
> Does it occur to you that Jerry is hurting dogs
> by interfering with Matt's business?
You mean his ILLEGAL UNNECESSARY DOGGY DAY CARE BUSINESS, paula?
> Not only has Jerry lied in a horribly cruel way
> by saying that Matt caused his dog's epilepsy
> (which was genetic and not caused by anything
> anyone did, by the way) but he has made Matt shut
> down his business for two months to deal with
> false accusations.
You mean on accHOWENT of he was RUNNIN A UNNECESSARY ILLEGAL BUSINESS.
> Where do you think those dogs were during those
> two months that they could not be at Matt's?
They SHOULDA BEEN AT THEIR OWN HOWESES instead of
gettin FLEECED by a lyin dog abusing FRAUD.
LIKE THIS:
From: Rocky
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 12:48 am
Email: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
mystified <mystif...@nospam.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I have a 5 year old rat terrier I adopted a year ago. He's
> basically well behaved when I'm home but not when I'm away.
How did you introduce him to your home when you first got him?
Specifically, did you give him free range from day one?
I'd advise you to look into crate training - crates are not just
about containment but, properly used, allow new dogs to slowly
acclimate to new surroundings.
Sometimes destructive behaviour results from dogs being anxious
or uncomfortable in new surroundings, especially in situations
where they're left in sole charge of a new place.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
THAT'S INSANE, matty. Locking dogs in boxes
CAUSES separation anXXXIHOWESNESS and PHOBIAS
like fear of thunder, car sickness and DIS-EASES
like SEIZURES:
HOWEDY matty,
Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.health:
> > Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug coward
> > mental cases too much credit for the ability to influence
Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just BAITING these lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >
> You really are a piece of work.
INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS
in her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual and REPORTED her 100% NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS
RIGHT HERE on The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS
And HUMAN BEHAVIOR RESEARCH LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >
You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >
> Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?
Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, matty, JUST
LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL dog Rocky is DYIN from
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard's
SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusin punk
thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty, and you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
IN FACT, Robin followed up on her original 100% NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL REPORT with a other WON, matty.
PERHAPS you'd like to READ IT, matty?
Thurs,Jun 16 2005 4:17 am
Subject: Re: Puppy Wizard - Report, Day Two
HOWEDY malinda,
Melinda Shore wrote:
> In article <robin4joy-49BEBF.23045015062.....@news.west.cox.net>,
> Robin <robin4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [nothing of value]
"Success!" is what Robin wrote, malinda.
Robin wrote that she CURED her 12 year old dogs
separation anXXXIHOWESNESS NEARLY INSTANTLY
using her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{);~ ) >
> jeebus but you're a selfish, inconsiderate dimwit.
That so? Didn't you want to know HOWE she done it, malinda?
> Plonk.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHHAHAAAA!!!
> --
> Melinda Shore - Software longa,
> hardware brevis - s...@panix.com
There's DOZENS MORE POSTED CASE HISTORIES JUST LIKE THESE
which you and your punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case pals and veterinary
malpracticioneers PREFER to KEEP SECRET.
Pehaps you're reserving these SECRET METHODS for
your own personal use?
Here sharon SNIPPED the part where Robin REPORTED CURING
her 12 year old dog's SEPARATION anXXXIHOWESNESS and told
her not to talk abHOWET her 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT
SUCCESS here on The Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Forums:
From: Robin
Date: Mon, Jun 13 2005 6:14 pm
Email: Robin <robin4...@yahoo.com>
In article <11arv91h2lk8...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Sharon too" <requestmyaddyfi...@nospam.com> wrote:
> This is obviously a request for a two person conversation.
> <snipped>
> Your private discussion with him here will benefit no one.
Who are you to judge the group benefit of the content
of my posts, or to dictate if I may post it, to Jerry
or anyone else?
Robin.
AND THEN she DONE IT AGAIN:
From: Sharon too
Date: Mon, Jun 13 2005 6:23 pm
Email: "Sharon too" <requestmyaddyfi...@nospam.com>
>> This is obviously a request for a two person conversation.
<snipped>
>> Your private discussion with him here will benefit no one.
> Who are you to judge the group benefit of the content of
> my posts, or to dictate if I may post it, to Jerry or
> anyone else?
Read the group. Google archives. By all means, if you are
seeking a professional opinion from this person you had
better check resources and references. Since he has tried
hundreds of times, if not more, over the years to insert
himself and his claims here at rec.pets.dogs.health, that
should be reference enough. Still want to follow his
convoluted advice?
Your risk.
As for judging the group, I was merely trying to give
you advice which was to take your questions to private
e-mail snce your request would get you nothing but
headaches from people who are constantly killfiling
Jerry, his new IDs and sockpuppets.
-Sharon
-----------
Robin REPORTED she CURED her 12 year old
dog's FEAR OF THUNDER and SEPARATION
anXXXIHOWESNESS NEARLY INSANTLY.
> Do you think dogs should be home alone all day
> with no human interaction when people work instead
> of with a loving and caring person and other dogs
> to play with as well?
Yeah. Dogs all over the WHOWEL WILD WORLD stay in
their own HOWESES to PROTECT them, all by themselves.
LIKE THIS:
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for
answers - AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS
METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot
of blame that we have to accept, but once we realize
that we've caused these problems to arise, we can
strive to make things better.
AIMEE
------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point at the
mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the house
or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
----------------
> Or maybe they were in a kennel situation where they
> spent the day crated because there Matt's place,
> where they can run around, was not available.
You mean so they won't GO INSANE and DESTROY THEIR HOWESES.
> Same for Lynn, who is a very good and very humane trainer.
Oh, you mean LIKE THIS:
<except when it is>
<except when it is>
--------------------
> Those people who didn't go to Lynn. What if they ended
> up with a bad trainer or putting their dogs in shelters
> because they didn't figure out how to train them and gave
> up on bad behaviors?
NO PROBLEMO. She'd GET THEM WON WAY OR THE OTHER:
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
> Putting it in terms of whether Matt was putting his
> business ahead of the dogs was attacking and insulting
> and just showed how little you understand how the world
> works as well as how bad you are at judging truth from
> lies and judging good dog people.
Oh? YOU MEAN LIKE THIS?:
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Which one is it?
Lynn K.
-------------
Here's your punk thug coward pal matty:
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
--Matt
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
> --
> Paula
> "Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
> so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
And NHOEW, here's YOU, you freakin miserable stinkin
lyin dog abusing punk thug coward mental case:
HOWEDY paula you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin dog abusing mental
case,
Paula wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:20:42 -0400, "David S."
> <butter...@dog.net>
> wrote:
>
> > We have learned to live with the quirks,
THAT'S ABSURED. DOGS DO NOT HAVE "QUIRKS":
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
our words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> > but the one thing that bothers me is that she prefers
> > to stay alone in the house rather than to sit with us
> > in the family room.
> If being in the other room really bugs you,
No paula you freakin insane dog abuser,
David S. AIN'T BUGGED by his dog's FEAR
BEHAVIOR, he DON'T WANT HIS DOG TO BE
UNHAPPY like YOUR fearful hyperactive dogs.
> then by all means you can take steps to try
> to get her to be more comfortable hanging out
> with you.
Like BRIBING her, paula?
> I think it is really great that you don't want
> to get rid of her even if any efforts in that
> direction don't work out
You mean if David S. can't make his dog
NOT FEAR HIM by bribing and choking IT?
> because that is important to the dog
DO TELL? You think dogs KNOW they're gonna
go back to the P-HOWEND like you and your
punk thug coward mental case pals do when
you can't train simple FEAR BEHAVIORS like
SUBMISSIVE URINATION?
LIKE THIS?:
"dejablues" <dejabl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2p4lk6F...@uni-berlin.de...
I recently rehomed one of my dogs that
submissively urinated, we tried for two
years to get him over it but nothing worked.
It is not a behavior I can live with.
> and you might not be able to change it.
THAT'S INSANE. Ooops! Pardon The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{): ~ ) >
> If you want to try, go slowly and very laid back.
You mean INSTEAD of CURING his dog's FEAR BEHAVIOR
NEARLY INSTANTLY by simply DOIN EXXXACTLY OPPOSITE
of HOWE you abuse a dog, paula?
> For example, you could close the doors to her
> favorite hiding rooms, but leave an area that
> is near you but not right with you open to her
> so she can
REINFORCE HER FEAR BEHAVIOR AS SHE'S BEEN DOIN.
> get used to be closer to you without being
> pushed completely out of her comfort zone.
Well then, she'll NEVER GET OVER IT, paula.
EVERY TIME the dog HIDES she REGRESSES to
her FORMER FEARFUL STATE OF MIND, paula...
JUST LIKE HOWE YOU DO.
> Be very low key while you do it. Don't make
> any fuss as she doesn't seem to react well to that.
BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> Just do your thing, maybe have some good liver treats nearby
Dogs are SCAVENGERS, paula. Dogs STEAL SCRAPS
and run to HIDE to eat them with their back
to the wall in a heightened state of alert.
OFFERING FEARFUL DOGS FOOD BRIBES MAKES THEM SUSPICIHOWES
AND MOORE FEARFUL, paula you freain INSANE DOG ABUSING
PUNK THUG COWARD <{); ~ ) >
> and act like you don't even notice
> whether she is in the room or not.
Oh? You mean DON'T CONDITION THE DOG TO PRAISE
EVERY TIME she looks at him, paula?
> At pet stores, you can get some stuff called Kong
> stuffing that is liver flavored that my dogs cannot
> resist.
That'll make the dog RUN TO HIDE to EAT IT in a
HEIGHTENED STATE OF ALERT, JUST LIKE HOWE IT SEZ
in David S.'s own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
> They love liver treats, too.
That so, paula? HOWE DO YOU KNOW? "EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT"
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
> Apparently stinky equals yummy to dogs.
That so? HOWE will yummy stinky STUFF be
any MOORE MEANINGFUL than David S. sayin
"GOOD GIRL" every time she looks at him?
> Anyway,
You mean anyHOWE, paula.
> you could make a trail from a hallway to the room
> you are in with liver stuff and see if she follows
> it toward you.
You been takin your anti psychotic medications, paula?
> Just remember to be totally low key about whether
> she does or doesn't. She needs to know that whatever
> her choice, you will be cool with it and won't call
> attention to the fact that her old routine is changing.
HER "OLD ROUTINE" AIN'T GONNA CHANGE BY BRIBERY, paula.
> It sounds like she does love other dogs.
Geez, paula, you think so? David S. DID MENTION that part.
> If you think it might help her, you can foster a
> dog from a rescue agency to see how it works without
> having to commit to the dog.
NO, THAT'S ABUSIVE TO THE "RESCUE" DOG, paula.
IT'S INSANE to pass dogs arHOWEND like HOWE you
MENTALLY ILL DOG ABUSING COWARDS who call yourselves
RESCUE and SHELTER and FOSTER CARE mistreat critters
for you own EGO's.
> If she gets better, but then you have two dogs
David S. SEZ HE CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER DOG on accHOWENT
of he lives in an APARTMENT, paula... didn't you
bother to READ HIS POST?
> who play with each other and completely ignore
> you or if another dog actually makes things worse
> for your current dog, you can always stop fostering.
THANKS FOR PLAYIN, paula...
> If it works out great, you can ask
> the rescue about adopting your foster.
David S. SEZ HE CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER DOG WHERE HE LIVES.
DON'T YOU BELIEVE HIM, paula?
> If the concept seems good
The "CONCEPT" is INSANE and David S. SEZ HE
CANNOT HAVE ANOTHER DOG THERE, on accHOWENT
of he LIVES IN AN APARTMENT and maybe has a
PROBLEM for keepin WON dog there, thanks to
DOG LOVERS like yourself RUINING everyWON'S
CONCEPT of what "responsible ETHICKAL people"
LIKE YOURSELF DO to innocent fearful critters
and TRY to get HOWET callin it RESCUE.
THEY MAKE MONEY off of DISADVANTAGING dogs
and their owners and further HURT dogs by
PASSIN THEM ARHOWEND to FOSTER CARE DOG
LOVERS who are ONLY TRYING TO GET OTHER
PEOPLE'S DOGS for FREE or WITH A DONATION
to SELL to other GUILLIBLE people like David
S. has LEARNED since first posting here a
couple days ago, paula.
YOU are the RESCUE PROBLEM, not the overpupulation
of NEEDY DOGS you HEEL by locking them in boxes
and choking and shocking and MURDERIN them like
HOWE you and your MENTAL CASE PALS do, paula.
> but the dog doesn't work, you can ask to foster
> a different dog instead.
You mean play musical dogs, paula?
THAT'S CRUEL to your FOSTER DOGS, paula.
There AIN'T a ETHICKAL BREEDER IN THE
WHOWEL WILD WORLD who'd AGREE to what
you propose with ANY of THEIR dogs, paula.
IS THERE.
> It's a great way to experiment
You think those FOSTER CARE DOGS LIKE
YOU MENTAL CASES EXXXPERIMENTING with
THEIR LIVES, paula?
> without being stuck with permanent consequences.
Kinda taks all the RESPONSIBILITY HOWETA ADOPTION,
DON'T IT, paula. Would you do the SAME with kids?
INDEED YOU WOULD, paula, on accHOWENT of THAT
is the HUMAN NATURE of a DOG and CHILD ABUSING
MENTAL CASE, paula.
> Plus, you are helping out another dog in need,
By takin it in and givin it a HOWES and turnin
arHOWEND and SENDING IT BACK LIKE HOWE YOU SEZ:
"I think it is really great that you don't want
to get rid of her even if any efforts in that
direction don't work out because that is important
to the dog"
> even a week or two of fostering helps tremendously.
You mean it HEELPS these CROOKED SHELTER / RESCUE
DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASES like yourself and suja
and tara o. aka tee and the rest of your punk thug
coward mental case pals, paula?
> Good luck
Dog trainin AIN'T LUCK you dog abusing mental case.
> with your dog and let us know how things go.
David S. is STUDYING his own FREE COPY of The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSITENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual and he'll CURE his dog's
FEAR BEHAVIOR NEARLY INSTANTLY unless he BRIBES
and locks IT in a box and scolds and punishes
and ignores her cries, LIKE HOWE YOU DO, paula.
> I hope that she relaxes over time.
You mean INSTEAD of NEARLY INSTANTLY, paula?
> Oh, another thing you can do is talk to a vet.
BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
Have your VET talk to The Amazing Puppy Wizard FIRST.
> Sometimes anxiety can be chemical in dogs,
THAT'S INSANE, paual. Ooops! Pardon.
> just like it can be in humans
THAT'S INSANE, paula.
> and medication might help if that is the case with your dog.
THAT'S INSANE, paula.
> --
> Paula
From: "YourConscience"
<YourLastInnocentHon...@HushMail.Com>
Date: 21 Jul 2005 10:40:18 -0700
Subject: Re: An AHA! moment
HOWEDY paula,
Paula wrote:
> It occurred to me when thinking of new dogs and old dogs
> and wanted dogs and unwanted dogs that there is a huge
> benefit to doing rescue work.
What makes you think you got the right to be playin
musical HOWESES with dogs, movin them here and there
till you HAPPEN to "find the right HOWES" for a dog
who'd otherWIZE GET MURDERED by you and your RESCUE
SHELTER and FOSTER CARE dog lovers?
"Even Diva, the dog looking for a good fight and whining
when she isn't allowed to take a snot-nosed punk of a pup
down when they're asking for it, obeys.
I think you are lacking that kind of authoritative command
and relationship with your dogs that would make it unnecessary
to stick foreign objects up their asses should they some day
decide they will take what they want from their dog sisters
and not wait for you to give or take away."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
"I have a dalmatian who gets snarky with strange dogs.
In all honesty, she feels mightily put upon to have
even familiar dogs sharing the same world with her,
but she gets along fine with the other dogs in the
house because she knows she has to".
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent> -
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:03:03 GMT
Subject: Re: people piss me off
Diva is very dominant but also very insecure.
That is a very dangerous combination.
Whatever the reason for this dog's hackles,
it is a tragedy waiting to happen.
--
Paula
"I personally allow my dogs to choose who is top dog but I
do not allow certain behaviors in establishing or enforcing
who their chosen hierarchy. So, for example, Diva can eat
first. However, she cannot tell the other dogs that they
cannot eat, steal their food or guard their food. She can
also show them who is boss when they bug her, but only by
certain behaviors as I do not allow fighting.
She also needs to understand that I am still higher than she
is in the hierarchy as that is how dogs understand who gets
to set the rules for the pack and it is very important to me
that my rules on behavior be followed."
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
At the time we were doing this, Diva was still pretty
dog aggressive, so I didn't trust her to correct
appropriately and absolutely needed Lacy to know
boundaries like that which might set Diva off.
I think remote collars can actually be really good
for soft dogs because they can be seen as not coming
from the person and thought about using one with Lacy
when we had so much to teach her and she was so hard
to get through to without shutting her down."
> You know all those posters who want the perfect dog?
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
"Even Diva, the dog looking for a good fight and whining
when she isn't allowed to take a snot-nosed punk of a pup
down when they're asking for it, obeys.
I think you are lacking that kind of authoritative command
and relationship with your dogs that would make it unnecessary
to stick foreign objects up their asses should they some day
decide they will take what they want from their dog sisters
and not wait for you to give or take away."
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," racetrack silly
"I'd give him lots of time with Fancy, but only controlled.
You have Fancy on one leash and your husband has Joe Joe on
another. Come near and no peeing action: Praise to high heavens.
Come near and peeing action: Correction. Again and again
and again. Lacy is a very soft dog and also pretty stupid,
but even she has been able to get a good grasp of rules.
It takes a lot of controlled repeating of the good/bad/good/bad
stuff, but once she gets it, she's great. We usually start out
with a lot of the good repetitions that we want to differentiate
(example: hang out on your dog bed) so she is clear that is a
good thing first as her default is to avoid anything that she is
not clear on and might get in trouble for. When she knows by praise
and not just absence of correction that it is a good thing, she is
able to start thinking through what is different about the new
situation that brought a correction (going to another dog's bed).
So we do, for example: (on leash the whole time) Your bed,
praise/treat. Your bed, praise treat. Your bed, praise treat
a dozen or so times before ever doing a pass (still on leash)
by the other dog's bed and then correcting her if she goes to
sit on it.
Then take her back to her bed IMMEDIATELY and make her get on
it if necessary so she can be immediately praised/treated again
several times. Then back over to the other dog's bed with a
correction if she touches it.
She actually caught on quickly that if she wanted to "make up"
for the corrected incident, she could immediately go to her own
bed and sit down as that was always getting her praise.
She'd look at you like "see, I wasn't trying to be bad and I
know this will make you happy again!"
> If you have enough fosters go through your house,
"Even Diva, the dog looking for a good fight and whining
when she isn't allowed to take a snot-nosed punk of a pup
down when they're asking for it, obeys.
I think you are lacking that kind of authoritative command
and relationship with your dogs that would make it unnecessary
to stick foreign objects up their asses should they some day
decide they will take what they want from their dog sisters
and not wait for you to give or take away."
You HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs, paula"
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> you either give up the notion that it is just this dog/breed/
> whatever and there is another perfect dog out there or you admit
> that you are incurably delusional.
Subject: R.P.D.B. Syndrome
http://www.phule.net/mirrors/u nskilled-and-unaware.html
http://www.apa.org/journals/fe atures/psp7761121.pdf
UNSKILLED AND UNAWARE OF IT: HOW DIFFICULTIES IN
RECOGNIZING ONE'S OWN INCOMPETENCE LEAD TO INFLATED
SELF-ASSESSMENTS
Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants
scoring in the bottom quartile... grossly overestimated
their best performance and ability. Although their test
scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated
themselves to be in the 62nd.
- Never attribute to malice that which can be
adequately explained by stupidity.
- Sufficiently advanced incompetence is
indistinguishable from malice.
- Insufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable
from incompetence.
> Having had to housetrain puppies and adults
HOWEsbrekin is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks of age.
> and submissive pee-ers and stealth pee-ers
THAT'S CAUSED BY PUNISHMEN or "CORRECTIONS."
> and stubborn independent dogs
There AIN'T NO SUCH THING.
> and soft spooky dogs,
THAT'S CAUSED BY YOU HURTING THEM, paula.
> you appreciate your basic dog instead of wondering why
> the hell it still has some accidents when you have had
> it a whole week.
Dogs DO NOT HAVE HOWEsbreaking ACCIDENTS they SHIT
and PISS in your HOWESES on accHOWENT of you HURT
INTIMDIATE and LOCK THEM IN BOXES and IGNORE THEIR
CRIES and HURT them for BEIN AFRAID.
> People worry about shedding,
EXXXCESSIVE shedding is CAUSED by ANXXXIHOWESNESS.
> and rightfully so
INDEED. You're driving your dogs INSANE:
"She doesn't even get up to bark at people who
ome to the door any more. That makes me sad."
She won't bark on accHOWENT Of YOU HURT and INTIMDIATE her.
"She will attack any evil flashlights or sunglints
that dare to come near, though, so she isn't completely
falling apart."
No, those are OCD behaviors CAUSED BY YOU ABUSING YOUR DOG.
> When you have worked with dalmatians because there was a huge
> need for dals to be trained to be good kid dogs even though
> it is not your favorite breed but one of them turns out to
> be one of your favorite dogs ever, you learn to look at the
> dog's heart and behavior in addition to, and even more than,
> its breed.
"I started to think that Dals were racist or something as
they often had a huge problem with all dogs except for Dals.
Except for Diva, the one Dal I have left. She had problems
with all dogs PERIOD. She's a psycho, but I love her, bitchiness,
moodiness, fear aggression issues, incontinence issues and all."
So you HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER them.
> When that heart dog was one who drove you completely nuts
> and made you feel insane to ever have taken it on, you learn
> that love can be built from service and sacrifice as much as
> by cuteness and puppy breath.
"However, I will correct Diva and make the lower status dogs
stay with me and be petted rather than backing off to prove
the point that I will pet whom I please and snarking will only
get Diva less of what she wants instead of more.
Not being alpha will not necessarily make your older dog unhappy,
but being bullied as she is being now will. So concentrate on what
behaviors you accept or don't accept rather than on who is alpha or
not.
From: Paula <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent> -
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:03:03 GMT
Subject: Re: people piss me off
Diva is very dominant but also very insecure.
That is a very dangerous combination.
Whatever the reason for this dog's hackles,
it is a tragedy waiting to happen.
--
Paula
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> When you have washed dog beds and carpeting daily and
> torn out your hair dealing with an incontinent dog for
> years on end, not much can phase you. You don't expect
> a no mess dog.
SO CALLED SPAY INCONTINENCE IS CAUSED BY STRESS.
This IS "ALL abHOWET ME", ain't it, dog lovers.
> When you have a dog who blows you off no matter what you
> say or a dog who curls up in horror at being told no, you
> learn to get to know the dog and treat it accordingly, as an
> individual with its own personality and issues, and to do so
> patiently.
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> You learn to appreciate any qualities a dog
> has and not to judge a dog on its bad qualities.
THAT'S curiHOWES. Dogs DO NOT HAVE BAD QUALITIES.
> You may even figure out that many of the behaviors
> that drive you nuts are
ARE CAUSED BY YOUR OWN ABUSE.
> reflections of the very qualities that you will love
> down the line once you learn how to deal with its
> negative side.
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
THAT'S INSANE.
> You realize working with enough dogs that not all dogs
> are right for you or right for your family or home,
You mean not all dogs, like children, respond
to gentle loving care, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST
and RESPECT.
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> but you can love them anyway and accept that your
> home is heaven for some dogs and hell for others
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> and make your decisions accordingly.
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> You definitely feel the pain of knowing without
> any doubt that you can't save them all.
Well that's just NOT TRUE. ALL temperament and
behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING and
can therefore be REHABILITATED NEARLY INSTANTLY
by simply NOT DOIN EXXXACTLY WHAT YOU DO to your
RESCUE SHELTER and FOSTER CARE DOGS:
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> But you also know the joy of saving that one or two or ten.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
> And you know the joy of not being one of those
> pains in the ass that lectures everyone about saving
> them all or how to do it right.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> As I sit at a crossroad and try to decide where dogs fit in
> my life and which dogs fit in my life, and my kids' lives,
> I am really grateful for all of the dogs who have run around
> my house(s) driving me bananas at times and cracking me up at
> others and taught me so much about communicating with dogs and
> unconditional love as well as anger management.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> I am glad that I learned how to give other families the
> gift of a dog I have worked with and finally got through
> to and am finally getting to think I might want to have
> around long term.
You mean LIKE THIS:
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness."
> I am glad that I have learned to be open and take chances.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> I am even grateful for those moments that wouldn't be shown
> on the dog food commercials because that is where I learned
> to appreciate and love real dogs, not just dog fantasies.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> So whatever my choices and whatever the down sides to opening
> up my heart and home, I have to be glad I've done it and I don't
> think I will ever be able to completely stop doing it.
INDEED:
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
> --
> Paula
> "Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes
> they have candy, so it's best to try to get along
> with them." Joe Bay
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person"
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no
treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care."
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
Here's your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G 34D2527A
Just ASK The Amazing Puppy Wizard if you
need any additional FREE heelp. There's NO
arbritrary INFORMATION in your FREE copy
of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual so
study it well and do and follow ALL the
EXXXERCISES AS INSTRUCTED... it's a
PRECISE SCIENCE or it COULDN'T GET 100%
CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS for
all handlers and all dogs in all fields
or utilities and behaviors all over the
Whole Wild World <{) ; ~ ) >
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals,
especially animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no
treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com)
The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method
I have studied canine behavior and dog training
for years. I have a huge library that covers
every system of training.
The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End
Training Method is by far the most scientific,
the most advanced, the kindest, the quickest
and the most effective training method yet
discovered.
It is not an assortment of training tips and
tricks; it is a logically consistent system.
Every behavior problem and every obedience
skill is treated in the same logically
consistent manner.
Please study his manual carefully. Please
endeavor to understand the basis of his system
and please follow his directions exactly. His
manual is a masterpiece. It is dense with
theory, with explanation, with detailed
descriptions about why behavior problems occur
and how their solution should be approached.
One should not pick and choose from among his
methods based upon what you personally like or
dislike. His is not a bag of tricks but a complete
and integrated system for not only training a dog
but for raising a loving companion.
When I once said to Jerry that his system
creates for you the dog of your dreams, his
response was that it produces for your dog the
owner of his dreams.
You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are
gentle with your dog then he will be gentle
with you, if you praise your dog every time he
looks at you, then you will become the center
of your dogs world, if you use Jerry's sound
distraction with praise, then it takes
just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train
your dog to not misbehave (even in your
absence) (Just 15 seconds this morning to train
my 10 week old puppy to lie quietly and let me
clip his nails).
Using Jerry's scientific method (sound
distraction / praise / alteration / variation)
it takes just minutes to train you dog to
respond to your commands.
What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week
old puppy running as fast has his wobbly little
legs would carry him in response to my recall
command-and he comes running every time I call
no matter where we are or what he is doing.
At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains
upon his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold
exercises and his Family Pack Leadership
exercises.
Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog,
if you scream at him, if you intimidate him, if
you hurt him, if you force him then his natural
response is to oppose you.
Is Jerry a nut?
It doesn't make any difference to me whether he
is or not. It is a logical fallacy to judge a
person's ideas based upon their personality. As
far as dogs are concerned, Jerry wears his heart
upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when he
hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding
or hurting dogs.
More than that, he knows that force is not
effective and that it will certainly lead to
behavior problems; sometime problems so severe
that people put their dogs down because of those
problems.
I believe that it is natural for humans to want to
control their dog by force. Jerry knows this too.
We have all been at our wits' end, haven't we?
Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In
scientific literature it is referred to
allelomimetic behavior. Dogs respond in like kind
to force; they respond in like kind to praise.
Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he
wants most-your kind attention. Give him your
praise. You will be astonished at how your dog 's
anxiety will dissipate and how their behavior
problems will dissipate along with their anxiety.
Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End
Training Method as a scientific principle just as
you would the law of gravity and you will have
astounding success.
Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.
If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a
sweet little Magwai; if you don't you will surely
get a little gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?).
--Larry
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>
To: <pdd-aspy...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: How does diagnosis shape treatment?
How does diagnosis shape treatment?
Nearly every week I have a visit from Jerry Howe, who
publicizes himself as The Puppy Wizard. Jerry is a
master at behavioral modification of dogs.
His fundamental bedrock is the work Pavlov's last student,
the late Sam Corson, Ph.D., did at the U of Ohio (at Oxford,O).
Sam always pointed out if the dog stopped working for
you in the lab, Pavlov and he always took the dog away
from the lab, and put him in a loving home and gave him
TLC for a couple of months, and then started, very carefully,
over again.
Jerry believes that reward and constraint focused training
is immoral. I've watched him in one short session calm
impossible dogs, just about to be murdered (oops "put to
sleep") because of their "incorrigibly" violent behavior.
Sam was one of the first people to apply amphetamine to
hyperactivity (he searched the Middle West for hyperactive
dogs); but he never lost sight of the fundamental reality that
a dog is not a human, but does respond, doggily, to dog love.
You might be surprised to go to B. F. Skinner's "Cumulative
Record" and read the essay by Breland and Breland, "The
Misbehavior of Organisms".
Animals cannot be successfully trained unless the
trainer attends to the evolutionary history, the individual's
developmental history, and the environmental niche of
the animal being trained.
Yep, right there in Skinner's last and summary book.
Even with behavior mod, you must know the animal.
<snip>
Dogs or little boys, you have to know the individual
history, and the nature of he disorder.
Dr. Von
PS if you are interested in dogs, then take a look at
Jerry's work, ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net
From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm.
My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.
Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems
as the other didn't need correcting for some of his
habits after I cleared it from the first dog.
Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point at the
mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the house
or in front of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
===================
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for
answers - AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the
acting out to get NEGATIVE attention from
one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS
METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot
of blame that we have to accept, but once we
realize that we've caused these problems to
arise, we can strive to make things better.
AIMEE
=================
<"Terri"@cyberhighway>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
>Terri
===========
"Even Diva, the dog looking for a good fight and whining
when she isn't allowed to take a snot-nosed punk of a pup
down when they're asking for it, obeys.
I think you are lacking that kind of authoritative command
and relationship with your dogs that would make it unnecessary
to stick foreign objects up their asses should they some day
decide they will take what they want from their dog sisters
and not wait for you to give or take away."
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I think remote collars can actually be really good for soft
dogs because they can be seen as not coming from the person,"
paula, lyin dog an child abusin active acute chronic long term
incurable mental case:
BREAKING MENTAL ILLNESS NEWS!
DATELINE: August 6, 2004
NEWSGROUPS: Dog Related + ARK
California Mormon Mom come Kibologist Paula
Makes Dog Newsgroup Mental Illness History
OUR FIRST CRAZY MORMON
Paula is a divorced Mormon Mom who dabbles freely
in Kibology, leaving herself at risk for being
Smite into a pile of rubble by either an angry,
vengeful God or worse yet, a Kibo unglued.
As a California based youth counselor, Paula
helps children deal with physical & emotional
problems while dealing with mental problems of
her own. Particularly chronic depression for
which she is drugged.
Paula has a long history of questioning her
faith, questioning her mother and worrying about
whether or not she'll be excommunicated for the
thoughts in her head. With good reason, after
spending so much time fraternizing with free
thinking, blaspheming Kibologists.
At one point, when Paula was suffering from a
heavy bout of depression, and in violation of
Mormonology and her mother's own advice, she
eschewed prayer and instead enlisted the heelp of
Harco Industries own twillis, who cruelly
flaunted her vaunted Paxil supply
"Sorry, go ride a horse, hands off my Paxil."
says HARCO's twillis
WON'T SHARE MY PAXIL WITH PAULA
From: HarCo Industries (tdwil...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: I need
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology
Date: 2003-05-13 09:48:41 PST
mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent (Paula) wrote
> I need something to get me out of this
> deepening depression.
I prescribe a horseback ride.
Really.
I'd share my Paxil with you, but I'm selfish.
twillis
To which Paula responded:
THE PAXIL IS NOT ENOUGH
"HAH! Paxil stopped working for me
and I had to switch to Celexa, for the
really and truly messed up!"
Paula
From: Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent)
Subject: Re: ATTENTION DOCTROID DOCTROID: Thad Van Cenks
paula's concise thesis on depression:
THE PRINGLES ARE NOT ENOUGH
Oh, honey! Pringles are never an adequate defense
against depression. It takes large amounts of premium
ice cream, at the very least.
THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
BUT ZOLOFT IS TOO MUCH
BETTER FAT THAN DEAD
Also, zoloft is not a good anti-depressant because it
makes you fat. Or so an acquaintance of mine told me.
I refrained from pointing out to her that being fat
was not exactly a bad trade-off if you stopped being
suicidal in so many words.
SERIOUSLY, CHRONIC DEPRESSION IS LIKE THIS
Seriously, chronic depression is all about feeling
like shit and not knowing why. If there were a reason,
it would be "the blues" or something equally not quite
fuzzy but not really serious sounding.
YOU KNOW, LIKE FEMALE TROUBLE
THAT'S WHERE GOOD DRUGS COME IN
UNLESS YOU LISTEN TO MY MOM
You know, like "female trouble." This is where good
drugs come in. Unless you listen to my mom, who
thinks that you should be able to pray and read your
scriptures and serve others to happiness and full
enjoyment of living. The rest of us wish she would
It seems that Paula's mom tries to make her feel bad for
being mental, just like Sighthounds aka Mustang Sally
tried to make Kelly aka Culprit feel bad about her mental
problems
WISH YOU WOULD SHUT THE HELL UP AND
GET ON SOME MEDS YOURSELF, MOM!
not only shut up about how to treat our issues but
also stay on some good meds herself.
DRUGS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN PRAYERS OR PRINGLES
BUT FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, DRUGS WORK BETTER
Anyway, I have to say the good drugs route works much
better and takes less time, too. It's more expensive
than praying and pringles, but it's worth it. Get
thee to a good psychiatrist. If you can find a good
therapist, that helps, too.
DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP
Do not in any way, shape or form beat up on yourself
for your depression making no sense or not being made
worse by commercials, however. That is an order.
Paula
Paula's mother would prefer that her children pray to
the Mormon God or Jesus, or whomever the Mormons pray
to, but Paula and her brother prefer drugging themselves
instead.
MY BROTHER, MY PAXIL
rmho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >Youre talking to someone on meds for
> >Social Phobia.
Sarah Cherlin <scher...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Ummm...what are those? I need to know for,
> like, a friend.
Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.net) responds
PAXIL MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE
For my brother, paxil made all the difference.
He feels like a new person, and acts like one
too. And he has been living with a hawt chyk
for years now when before he had problems with
supervisors at work, with friendships and with
wimmin because he just never felt socially
comfortable. It really has made a huge
difference for him.
Paula
Paula discussing both her own, and more
specifically, the mental problems of her husband
before they got divorced, exhibiting a slight
masochistic bent:
From: Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent)
Subject: Re: Marriage and Kids
Newsgroups: soc.religion.mormon
Date: 2003-11-02 08:28:04 PST
ASKED HUBBY TO BEAT ME
Yes. I once told my husband that I wished he
would hit me. He didn't believe me. I asked him
what was more hurtful and had the longest lasting
and most devastating effect on him, the physical
abuse or the emotional abuse he suffered as a child.
HE COULD ONLY CRY
BUT AGREED TO GO TO COUNSELING
He could only cry. He agreed to go to counseling
immediately after processing that question. I don't
think you have to sit around while your spouse beats
WHO IS BEATING WHOM?
up your spirit any more than you are expected to sit
around waiting for the next physical beating. There
are other reasons cancellations of sealings have been
granted, even in the stricter days, so it appears
there are various "legitimate" reasons for divorce,
even when it is a temple marriage
Paula uses her own mental illness experience to help
her in her capacity as counselor to others who
are suffering with mental problems. Here, Paula
coaches Matt into taking some Paxil, so that
Skylab won't fall on him.
Matt McIrvin <mmcir...@world.std.com> wrote:
PAULA, I KNOW SKYLAB IS GOING TO FALL ON ME
> No, it's a sign that *I personally* have a
> tendency to become worried about catastrophic
> consquences of everything. I've known this
> for a long time-- when I was twelve, I was
> convinced that Skylab was going to fall ON
> ME PERSONALLY--
MATT, TAKE IT EASY AND TAKE SOME PAXIL
Matt, you are a sweetheart, but definitely a
worrying sweetheart. I hope you can find a way to
calm down your fears and turn off that cycle of
escalating worry. I have an aunt like that and
she has literally driven herself crazy....
I don't want you to end up like that. Take it
easy and take some paxil.
Paula
=========================
Paula
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 16:30:12 GMT, Paula <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent>,
>clicked their heels and said:
>>
>>There are other reasons and benefits to take dogs on walks, yes, and I
>>do take my dogs on walks for those reasons, but not for 45 minutes a
>>day and not for exercise, which is what the discussion was about, or
>>so I read it.
>
>I agree. Walks are part of life, but they sure don't give my crew
>"exercise". I never walk around my neighborhood. I've done it of
>course, but don't find it all that entertaining or beneficial. I'd
>much rather take the dogs swimming, field training, flyball, agility,
>trips, etc. and engage in yard play (some on their own, some with me
>throwing a ball).
>
My dogs like to go for rides in the car whenever we go in the car and
then have walks around new places. I think it's good for them to see
new places and people. They seem to enjoy it more than the walks
around our neighborhood. One thing I like better is that Molly can be
kind of territorial when we set out from our house/yard and then walk
around from there. It's like she's trying to figure out how much she
can claim as her turf and also feels like she needs to protect the
space more. When we are out and about, she alerts to some extent when
people approach us but doesn't seem to be doing what I call
"patrolling the perimeter." She also relaxes more and patrols less
when the door is closed between the sitting area next to my bedroom
and the rest of the house. She likes the corner by that door best of
all spots to sleep in for some unknown reason. But if the door is
open, she feels compelled to get up and check out the hallway, which
leads to checking out the girls' bedrooms, then downstairs, etc. When
it is closed, she does her bedtime whole house perimeter patrol and
then settles in to her favorite spot and goes to sleep.
If we did agility, flyball, etc. they would get even more stimulation
and socialization, no doubt. Maybe some day. I'd still like to let
my daughters do agility with the poodle. I think they'd all love it.
But too much has been going on lately to even find a place, never mind
take them to classes.
>I take my dogs along with me at random, and they get to do a lot of
>things. But because they aren't walked 45 minutes a day, I'm not
>giving them what they need? Hardly.
Well, we all knew you were a dog abusing thug long before this, so
it's not like your reputation has been ruined or anything. I think
that is one problem with tv training, though. It's easier to have
black and white rules like take your dog for 45 minute walks every day
than it is to teach the principal of giving your dog physical and
mental stimulation and the additional information of how to figure out
how best to do that for your individual dog. If everyone could figure
out that was an example instead of a mandate, that would be fine, but
many many people can't and then you get the idiots interrupting Tara's
classes and telling Sally her dogs don't get enough exercise in her
backyard. To the extent that it clues JQP in to the fact that dogs
need more than just hanging out in the backyard by themselves, I'm all
for tv shows giving advice like that, but I wish it were given with
some explanation and nod to flexibility instead. Like I said, I only
saw the one Dog Whisperer episode. From what I recall of that one
episode, it wasn't all that good at the explanation side of it, and
that has been born out by those here who have passed along what they
have picked up from the show, but I could be getting a skewed view.
I'm the last one to pretend I know what Cesar is all about. I hope he
is saying things like, "Dogs need exercise, socialization and mental
stimulation. For example, many dogs benefit greatly from daily 45
minute walks to stretch their legs, meet new dogs and people and check
out their environment." But from what I have seen from tv in general
and that one show,I expect is the norm is more like, "You need to walk
your dog 45 minutes every day, Mr. TV Client" every or nearly every
time a dog is worked with and JQP puts that on their checklist of what
good dog owners do and good trainers recommend without further
thought, more's the pity.
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>Once a week a meet two women in the forest that walk three greyhounds; the
>dogs are as quiet as can be. Maybe if they do it often enough, they won't
>bolt. Not sure if that would work, or maybe they just have calm greyhounds.
>You would have to walk them on the leash for awhile to see what happens.
Maybe there's no forest near me; did you ever think of that? And all
the parks in the area require dogs to be on leash. I have walked my
greyhounds in private woods off-leash, but I don't own any private
woods, so I can't do that routinely.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:44:14 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Plus, don't you feel it is a social thing for them to get
>>out and look around; it is good for them all around is how I see it.
>
>
>There are other reasons and benefits to take dogs on walks, yes, and I
>do take my dogs on walks for those reasons, but not for 45 minutes a
>day and not for exercise, which is what the discussion was about, or
>so I read it.
That was certainly the impression I got. I can't walk for 45 minutes
a day, and neither can most of my dogs.
Mustang Sally
Janet B
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:10:37 -0400, Janet B
><ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>
>>But because they aren't walked 45 minutes a day, I'm not
>>giving them what they need?
>
>Truthfully, Janet.
>
>Do you think Millan was talking about somebody like you?
Nope - and I kinda like the guy. I am concerned that people will do
stupid things, while at the same time encouraged that they may
actually get training help for their dogs. Hell, there isn't a soul
on earth I agree with 100% on everything.
I'm going to one of his seminars in October. I thought his book
wasn't very enlightening, but then again, *I* don't find many dog
books to be. What JQP may be hit over the head with, is another
story. I know that a lot of trainers are getting calls and saying "I
want my dogs to behave that way", so he must be doing something right,
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
[]
>>Truthfully, Janet.
>>
>>Do you think Millan was talking about somebody like you?
>
>Nope - and I kinda like the guy. I am concerned that people will do
>stupid things,
Truthfully, Janet.
Do you think people will ever stop doing stupid things?
See that link down there in my signature?
Deborah Frisch is even a PhD. Can you imagine how many books she's
probably read? How much she's been taught over the years?
Well, she did a very stupid thing.
She has a history of doing stupid things.
And she keeps doing stupid things, too.
Some people just do stupid things.
With some people, there's just no there there, no matter how much
"education" they receive, etc.
<sigh>
Paula
If you ever do decide to exercise your GH's by taking them out around
the neighborhood on leash, be sure to have someone film it. You could
make a lot of money. Maybe you could stand on a skateboard or
something. Have you seen Hoodwinked? I'll bet Granny could walk your
GH's and have them end up being fully exercised.
pfoley
Mustang Sally said:
"Maybe there's no forest near me; did you ever think of that? And all the
parks in the area require dogs to be on leash. I have walked my greyhounds
in private woods off-leash, but I don't own any private woods, so I can't do
that routinely."
pfoley said:
No, I didn't think of there being no forest near you, should I have. I
don't own any private forest either; I use the town forest. Can't you find
some other place to walk your dog. Just open the door and start walking.
Or drive to a forest and walk there. Put one foot in front of the other.
That is how you do it. I don't know how anyone here can possibly think that
getting your dog out of the house and walking your dog is a bad thing. It
actually seems rather strange to me that so many of you feel that way.
Maybe the problem here is that the ones that are attacking me for that very
simple idea don't ever walk themselves. That is something you should start
thinking about; start walking yourself; it is good for your health. Driving
your dog around in the car with you might be enjoyable for the dog
sometimes, but it is not exercise. You could also hire someone to walk
your dog for you if you don't have the time, or you don't want to walk.
Anyway, if you don't see the importance of walking your dog, then don't do
it.
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:peu2b2h15hmlvud94...@4ax.com...
Melinda Shore
pfoley <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I don't know how anyone here can possibly think that
>getting your dog out of the house and walking your dog is a bad thing. It
>actually seems rather strange to me that so many of you feel that way.
Strawcritter, ahoy!
Nobody feels that way, to my knowledge. If you read for
content and responded to what was written perhaps you
wouldn't be in a defensive position. My dogs get a huge
amount of physical exercise, I believe they should get a
huge amount of physical exercise, and yet I'm not such a
numbskull to believe that all dogs need the same exercise.
Indeed, since I understand the difference between endurance
and sprint athletes (and let's face it, anybody who doesn't
understand the difference is pretty freakin' clueless) I
understand that the kind of exercise that's appropriate for,
say, Siberian Huskies would bore the living crap out of
greyhounds and be inadequate for their physical needs, as
well.
--
pfoley
are you and a few others. This is really getting too strange for me. It is
like a few of you are just looking to start an argument all the time, no
matter what I say. I joined this newsgroup because I am interested in
discussing dogs, but all I get is bad mouthed no matter what my thoughts and
opinions are. This is really a strange place.
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e8san2$dqh$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Melinda Shore
Let's get this straight: You claim that all dogs need the
same amount and type of exercise and then you say that
people here think that "getting your dog out of the house
and walking your dog is a bad thing" and you don't
understand why you're getting shit? Seriously? Duh!
Suja
<jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message:
> Millan is giving a seminar in my area in August,
> sold out a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to be interested to see the
> makeup of the audience.
Someone I know went to his seminar when he gave one here. She said that an
awful lot of people from the rescue community turned up, as did John Q
Public dog owner.
She said that she did not learn anything new beyond what he talks about on
his shows, and was really, really disappointed in the questions from the
audience. Typical Q&A went something like this:
Aud: I have an 11 month old BC, and she tears up everything in the house.
CM: How much exercise does she get?
Aud: She gets walked daily, except if the weather is bad.
CM: How long do the walks last?
Aud: Well, we just walk her around the block.
CM: Give her more exercise. A lot more exercise.
Suja
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 17:53:10 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
><x...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 16:30:12 GMT, Paula <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:44:14 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Plus, don't you feel it is a social thing for them to get
>>>>out and look around; it is good for them all around is how I see it.
>>>
>>>
>>>There are other reasons and benefits to take dogs on walks, yes, and I
>>>do take my dogs on walks for those reasons, but not for 45 minutes a
>>>day and not for exercise, which is what the discussion was about, or
>>>so I read it.
>>
>>That was certainly the impression I got. I can't walk for 45 minutes
>>a day, and neither can most of my dogs.
>
>If you ever do decide to exercise your GH's by taking them out around
>the neighborhood on leash, be sure to have someone film it. You could
>make a lot of money. Maybe you could stand on a skateboard or
>something. Have you seen Hoodwinked? I'll bet Granny could walk your
>GH's and have them end up being fully exercised.
Heh. Haven't seen Hoodwinked, but if we did that and filmed it it
would qualify for one of those home video shows. Here's what happened
during the two or three weeks our big yard was off limits because we'd
put grass seed down for the dogs. The Whippets and Borzoi got cranky,
the Sibes got very antsy and cranky (mild for Sibes, I know, but
they're all over 12), and the Greyhounds lost their little minds.
Music the GH also was not allowed to run because he'd had surgery for
a muscle separation in his shoulder. When I put a leash on him en
route to the van for an event (excellent socialization, and he does
them frequently), he crouched and lunged for a takeoff. Now, I see
that Lucy's back and I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea - - my
dogs are trained to walk on leash without pulling - - but this was a
not-yet 6 year-old Greyhound that hasn't run in three weeks. And
again, so that no one gets the wrong idea, I mildly told Music to not
even think about it and we walked to the van without incident.
I've never understood Greyhound adoption groups who tell people
without fenced yards that they can adequately exercise their dogs with
one or two longish walks daily.
Mustang Sally
Mary Healey
> ...Millan is giving a seminar in my area in August,
> sold out a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to be interested to see the
> makeup of the audience.
Full report, please.
Mary Healey
news:Fri97FB7E8343F06au...@rocky-dog.com:
> Janet B <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>> I agree. Walks are part of life, but they sure don't give
>> my crew "exercise". I never walk around my neighborhood.
>> I've done it of course, but don't find it all that
>> entertaining or beneficial.
>
> Every once in a while, I walk my dogs around the neighbourhood
> just so that my neighbours see them with me, know where they
> come from, and learn that they're friendly.
Duke, Ranger, and Lindy met a couple dozen Special Olympians last week on
our evening strides around Ames. The dogs were super, as ever, and the
S.O. folks were all polite, considerate, and very pleased to make the
pups' acquaintance. They asked permission before the dogs were approached,
a refreshing change (all too often, people cross the street when they see
the four of us coming).
FWIW, we walk more for my exercise than theirs. I try for a minimum of an
hour, but we often go longer. OTOH, I took Jack (the dog) around the block
last week, and it took us 35 minutes. Poor boy just can't get around very
well any more, and a daily 45 minute walk would probably kill him.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>Typical Q&A went something like this:
>
>Aud: I have an 11 month old BC, and she tears up everything in the house.
>
>CM: How much exercise does she get?
>
>Aud: She gets walked daily, except if the weather is bad.
>
>CM: How long do the walks last?
>
>Aud: Well, we just walk her around the block.
>
>CM: Give her more exercise. A lot more exercise.
Well, he IS right on that one! Of course, it's a very simplistic
answer, but it's still right.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Melinda Shore
Janet B <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>Well, he IS right on that one! Of course, it's a very simplistic
>answer, but it's still right.
I'd lean towards "necessary, but not sufficient."
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>
>Mustang Sally said:
>"Maybe there's no forest near me; did you ever think of that? And all the
>parks in the area require dogs to be on leash. I have walked my greyhounds
>in private woods off-leash, but I don't own any private woods, so I can't do
>that routinely."
>
> pfoley said:
>No, I didn't think of there being no forest near you, should I have. I
>don't own any private forest either; I use the town forest. Can't you find
>some other place to walk your dog. Just open the door and start walking.
>Or drive to a forest and walk there. Put one foot in front of the other.
>That is how you do it. I don't know how anyone here can possibly think that
>getting your dog out of the house and walking your dog is a bad thing. It
>actually seems rather strange to me that so many of you feel that way.
>Maybe the problem here is that the ones that are attacking me for that very
>simple idea don't ever walk themselves. That is something you should start
>thinking about; start walking yourself; it is good for your health. Driving
>your dog around in the car with you might be enjoyable for the dog
>sometimes, but it is not exercise. You could also hire someone to walk
>your dog for you if you don't have the time, or you don't want to walk.
>Anyway, if you don't see the importance of walking your dog, then don't do
>it.
I never said walking was a bad thing, and I never said I don't walk my
dogs. I do take my dogs to area parks, but as I said, they are
required to be on-leash there, so I could not allow my Greyhounds to
run free there if I wanted to. I also never said I don't walk - I do
- what I said is that I am not able to walk 45 minutes at a stretch.
What I said in the beginning of this silly discussion is that I
disagree with the statement that 45 minutes of walking a day is better
exercise for *my* dogs than running in our fenced yard.
Mustang Sally
Mary Healey
> No, I didn't think of there being no forest near you, should I have.
> I don't own any private forest either; I use the town forest.
And where would I find one of those in deepest Iowa? For that matter,
where would I find a safe off-leash area -- all the local towns have
leash laws (including leash laws for cats) and once you get outside of
town it becomes highly likely that a trespassing off-leash dog will be
shot.
> Can't you find some other place to walk your dog. Just open the door
> and start walking. Or drive to a forest and walk there. Put one foot
> in front of the other.
If one is capable of putting one foot in front of the other. Some of us
aren't.
Why are you so insistent on walks? They suffice for my critters now,
but back in the day Ranger was ready, willing, and eager to play an
hour's fetch immediately after a 4 hour walk. BTDT. I could, of
course, accept your word over my dogs' behavior, but I think I'll let
them be the authorities on how much exercise is enough.
In fact, I should probably start doing some biking with the guys in
addition to their hour-long walks.
> That is how you do it. I don't know how anyone
> here can possibly think that getting your dog out of the house and
> walking your dog is a bad thing.
Nobody's saying it's a bad thing. Several people have said it isn't
sufficient for their dogs' needs, and I believe them. It's sufficient
for my dogs, as long as we supplement those walks with obedience classes
and games of tag, zoomie, or fetch.
pfoley
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:e8t920$bsb$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Handsome Jack Morrison
>Suja
Italy 2
France 1
:D
France.
<spit>
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Melinda Shore
Here's what you posted in article <cQhsg.2464$vO....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>:
>I don't know how anyone here can possibly think that
>getting your dog out of the house and walking your dog is a
>bad thing. It actually seems rather strange to me that so
>many of you feel that way.
Can you be specific about who here thinks that walking their
dog is a "bad thing?" I'm trying to figure out if you have
anything to contribute, or if you're one of those people who
just wants attention and is determined to get it by any
means necessary. Understanding your comment about people
here being opposed to dog walking would help.
Suja
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message:
> Well, he IS right on that one! Of course, it's a very simplistic
> answer, but it's still right.
I am not disagreeing with the answer. According to my friend, the whole Q&A
session was taken up by idiotic questions like this, where you just
substitute one high energy breed whose exercise requirements aren't being
met with another (there were Aussies, BCs, Setters, Dalmatians, etc.). She
found the seminar to be a waste of time, because she did not learn anything
new, did not learn how to handle any sort of actual behavior problems. Her
observation, after the seminar, was that a) it is amazing, the kind of
behavior people put up with from their dogs b) it's shocking even more dogs
don't end up in rescue and shelters and c) the average pet owner appears to
have not two brain cells between their ears.
Suja
pfoley
able to walk, if your dog is able to walk, if there are no forests around
your area, if there no parks around your area, if there are no schools
around your area, (which it sounds like there are none) then open your front
door and walk down the street to the store pick up a newspaper and turn
around and walk back to your house, or get into your car and drive someplace
where you can walk your dog; What is the problem. If you dog is too ill; if
you are too ill, if your dog is too old, if you are too old; then don't do
it. Use your head.
What dumb questions you ask me, like where am I going to find a forest in
Iowa; what if some people are unable to walk; what if I don't own a forest
or a private forest?????? These are the questions you are asking me, and
quite frankly, the questions seem a little odd.
"Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns97FC633C78D8Ea...@130.133.1.4...
Suja
"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message :
> Ok,to answer your questions more clearly, I PERSONALLY feel:
Look, you will not find anyone here who thinks that walking your dog is a
bad thing. What you will find are people disagreeing with the
generalization that walking a dog is necessary and sufficient for any given
dog. For example, Sally's Greyhounds will benefit from full out running for
5 minutes than from being walked miles on end. You've got to know your dog,
and know what it takes to keep them happy.
Of my two dogs, Khan is happy with walks, especially if the walks are
through areas where there is plenty of dog traffic. Pan would be happy to
forego walking/hiking, as long as someone plays with her. She enjoys a
round of soccer and frisbee more than she enjoys walking.
Suja
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
> if there are no forests around
>your area,
I don't know that I've ever seen a forest! ;-D Wooded areas, yes. We
have a closed amusement park near us called Enchanted Forest though,
and a housing development and shopping center named for it!
>if there no parks around your area, if there are no schools
>around your area, (which it sounds like there are none) then open your front
>door and walk down the street to the store pick up a newspaper and turn
>around and walk back to your house,
You do realize that a great deal of the US does not have walkable
towns like that? It would be at least 2 miles, but perhaps more, for
me to get to store with a newspaper. In 90+ temps with similar
humidity, no thanks.
>where you can walk your dog; What is the problem. If you dog is too ill; if
>you are too ill, if your dog is too old, if you are too old; then don't do
>it.
But we'll all burn in hell? My dogs are walked all over the place.
That has nothing to do with the EXERCISE they get. I don't walk fast
enough to provide aerobic activity for my dogs, and that is the kind
of exercise most young, healthy, energetic dogs need. Yard and even
living room play give them more of that.
Walks are generally to get from point A to point B. I'm not much of a
hiker, and I would venture to guess that a lot of JQP isn't either.
Giving people reasonable guidelines for providing adequate exercise is
more beneficial than telling them they must walk for 45 minutes.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
pfoley
and runs all day and is satisfied with not going out into the outside world
and sniffing around; ok then you and your dogs will be happy. Geez, I can't
break it down to each dog, each dog breed, each age of dog, crippled dogs,
crippled owners, no forest in Iowa, no off leash parks, then use the leash I
say. Good to Sally's Greyhounds. I think everyone is upset because I
believe in Cesar's methods of training. I was not trying to prove anything,
this all started out with an innocent statement as follows:
This is my original post that got everyone upset:
A definite thumbs up for me. I have his book and I watch him every week. I
love his calm/assertive technique. I also believe in treating a dog like a
dog and not a human. I believe he is right that dogs need exercise everyday
to be happy and act normal.
"Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:3jusg.67014$ZW3.18226@dukeread04...
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
I think Millan's pat recommendation [to these TV families] to walk the
dog 45 minutes each day is more about elevating the owners' status in
the pack than in exercising the dog, although it obviously serves that
purpose too.
I've seen him [on the TV show] also recommend taking the dog for runs,
to the beach, play, etc.
I don't think his shtick is really suited for seminars, and for people
actually looking for ways to TRAIN their DOG.
We'll see.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
pfoley
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:rds4b2htd0u2oblnj...@4ax.com...
Mary Healey
news:v1usg.5511$PE1....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> Ok,to answer your questions more clearly, I PERSONALLY feel: if you
> are able to walk,
I am. Others are not. I hesitate to pronounce "open your door, walk to
the corner" or whatever when I've been around these parts long enough to
know that some of our best and most dedicated owners can't make it
> if your dog is able to walk,
Three are. One is not. Well, he *is*, but not far.
> if there are no forests around your area,
I didn't realize that dogs were forest-dwelling animals. Hmmm.
> if there no parks around your area,
There are. They all require that dogs remain leashed.
>if there are no schools around your area,
There are, from elementary to university. Dogs are not allowed on
school property. (We skirt the rules a bit there by walking the dogs on
University property. On leash.)
> then open your front door and walk down the street to the store pick
> up a newspaper and turn around and walk back to your house,
May I merely continue walking to the library to return books, and to dog
class, and to meet my roommate and her grandchildren at various spots
around town? Or does the newspaper purchase play as vital a role as a
clump of trees in the proper exercising of a dog?
> or get into
> your car and drive someplace where you can walk your dog;
At $3+/gallon, I ain't driving anywhere I can walk.
> What is the problem.
The problem is that you were using unconditional absolutes to frame
relative suggestions.
> If you dog is too ill; if you are too ill, if your dog is
> too old, if you are too old; then don't do it. Use your head.
I do.
> What dumb questions you ask me, like where am I going to find a forest
> in Iowa; what if some people are unable to walk; what if I don't own
> a forest or a private forest?????? These are the questions you are
> asking me, and quite frankly, the questions seem a little odd.
Only because you lack empathy. You were saying "do this, and this, like
this" and I was merely pointing out that some people are unable to do
"this" or "that" and that one size is so unlikely to fit all that it
seems a bit clueless to frame your recommendations in that manner.
TaraG
> If it is too tough for you, don't do anything then.
Why don't you at the very least click on the link she provides in her sig to
find out what she *does* do before you go making assumptions.
I notice you've been jumping to conclusions when people object to the
generalizations you'd already made. Might not be a bad idea to check some of
the info already easily available on the posters you've been discussing this
with, rather than just assuming these people are simply Joe Couch Potato dog
owners.
That would be a very erroneous assumption to make...and not very conducive
to a decent discussion.
Tara
Toni
> Geez, I can't
> break it down to each dog, each dog breed, each age of dog, crippled dogs,
> crippled owners, no forest in Iowa, no off leash parks,
That's the point.
Neither can Cesar.
--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/rules.htm
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
stinkin lyin dog murderin coward,
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:mksva25jb0g8kap79...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:57:05 -0400, montana wildhack
> <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2006-07-08 13:00:30 -0400, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> said:
>>
>>> I've had plenty of people try to interrupt my classes to tell me I'm
>>> teaching something "wrong" because "that's not how The Dog Whisperer >>> teaches it".
Well NHOWE there's the pot callin the kettle black, eh tommy?
>>> Thankfully, their own dogs are rarely well trained enough
>>> to cause my students to question how we're doing things.
INDEEDY. OtherWIZE they WOULDN'T BE IN HER "CLASS".
WOULD THEY, tommy.
>> I see that as a teaching opportunity. Trainers are as
>> different as gourmet chefs.
Even the cookin industry got STANDARDS, don't they, tommy.
>> They all have the same basic tools and ingredients at
>> hand, but each has a different technique.
Yeah. LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
AND LIKE THIS:
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
AND LIKE THIS:
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
AND LIKE THIS:
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
AND LIKE THIS:
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
AND LIKE THIS:
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
> Yes, they're at hand, but some trainers choose to use only one "pot"
> or only "sugar" as a seasoning. I.e., just R+.
If you're gonna start usin SCIENTIFIC terminology perhaps
you should EXXXPLAIN EXXXACTLY whoat does R+ mean,
tommy. Positive reinforcement can mean HURT the dog.
You mean, kinda like HOWE some trainers CHOOSE to jerk
choke shock bribe crate intimidate and surgically sexually
mutilate their own SELECTIVELY BRED HAND PICKED
from generatiHOWENS of generatiHOWENS of CHUMPion
field bred tested and hand picked brood stock, AND THEN
DENY IT, eh tommy?:
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
IS IT, tommy <{} ' ~ ) >
> That is, they don't use *all* of the tools or ingredients that are
> available to them (R-, P+, R-, prong collars, choke collars,
> e-collars, etc.).
HOWE COME do you suppHOWES your own SELECTIVELY BRED
HAND PICKED from generatiHOWENS of generatiHOWENS of CHUMPion
field bred tested and hand picked brood stock can't learn to HUNT
witHOWET
HURTIN THEM, eh tommy?
You'd think your genetically mutated field dogs would know
HOWE to HUNT, INSTINCTIVELY, witHOWET NEEDIN to
be jerked choked shocked bribed intimidated mutilated and
murdered by EXXXPERT TRAINERS who USE all of the
TOOLS of the trade, jerking choking shocking bribing
intimidating surgically mutilating and murderin innocent
defenseless dumb critters to IMPROVE the breed, like
HOWE you do, tommy <{}; ~ ) >
>> At least you have people who are actually inspired to:
>> 1) watch a TV show about training dogs
the ces is a dog abusing coward, like yourself, ain't he, tommy:
You sez:
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."
And then you sez:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
>>2) take a class with a real live trainer
Ahhh, like yourself, tommy? You do remember when
your FRIEND'S dog ATTACKED HIM gettin into his
truck to come see you for another SHOCK COLLAR
lesson.
THEN he MURDERED his dog JUST LIKE HOWE your
"STUDENTS" Robert Crim an laura arlov an kwbrown
an all them other DEAD DOGS you've TRAINED RIGHT
HERE, REMEMBER tommy?
DIDN'T HE, tommy.
BUT YOU SEZ:
"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.
A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens"
HOWE abHOWET all them DEAD DOGS you TRAINED RIGHT
HERE that your TERRORIZM DIDN'T SAVE, tommy?
Like Robert Crim's, kwbrown's, laura arlov's, tara o.
aka tee's DEAD DOGS, FOR EXXXAMPLE, tommy?
HOWE COME do your STUDENTS FAIL to "DO ANYTHING",
to save their dogs from the needle, tommy? Perhaps it's
a LEADERSHIP problem, eh tommy? You know HOWE dog
an people ABHOR a leadership vaccum <{} ; ~ ) >
> Yup.
INDEEDY.
> Handsome Jack Morrison
"Walkin The Walk," Accordin To tommy sorenson, aka
jack morrison aka dogman aka joey finnochiario etc,
etc, etc.
Here's lyingdogDUMMY aka tommy soronson
beatin a dog to HOWEsbreak IT to save ITS life:
But FIRST, a little good KOEHLER trainin:
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking
Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of
these "backsliders" will think they're winning and
will continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be
made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long
duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute
intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"Housebreaking Problems:
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment.
Make certain he is equipped with a collar
and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside.
Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding
and close observation, you will not have to do
much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling.
To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking
apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the
house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house
and then backslides, the method of correction
differs somewhat.
In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation.
The fact that he once was reliable in the house is
proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it
leaves you no other course than to punish him
sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of
his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of
these "backsliders" will think they're winning and
will continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and
punish him again for the same thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.
It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.
<handsomemorri...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:spb3ivgh7prvq9omh...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> <kris_br...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Good books huh?
> Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.
> >Which idea was your favorite, the one where they tell you
> >to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,
> There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog (i.e.,
> it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
> Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do it
> at the wrong time, etc.
> >or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard enough
> >if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within 5 minutes of
> >his punishment?
> If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
> evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
> quickly than it is to do it incrementally and
> half-heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
> more discipline.
> >Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings for
> >housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive behavior,
> >stealing, trying to get on your bed
> >at night and dog on dog aggression.
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a dog. A
> swat on the rump or a check to the chin does *not*
> constitute a "beating."
> I'm sorry if you don't agree.
> And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be looked at
> in its proper context.
> A quote from the Monks:
> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical discipline.
> Since no book can pretend to analyze every individual dog
> and situation, we feel obligated to emphasize from the
> outset that discipline is never an arbitrary training
> technique to be applied to each and every dog for all
> offenses. We do, however, believe that physical and verbal
> discipline can be an effective technique. The best policy if
> you experience any of the above problems is to consult a
> qualified trainer or veterinarian for evaluation of your
> individual situation....
> "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique, it
> should be the proper technique. We feel we have developed
> several methods that depend less on violent physical force
> than timing, a flair for drama, and the element of surprise.
> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map out
> these methods, rather than simply skip the topic because it
> is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know what to do."
> In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
> serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.
> For example, they do not recommend using physical discipline
> for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only on those rare
> occasions when an already reliably housebroken dog is (after
> careful evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
> purpose, backsliding, etc.
> I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an adult dog
> was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler. It was
> either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog was
> going on a one way trip to the pound. Being the kind,
> compassionate trainer that I am, I was prepared to do
> whatever it took to get this dog house-trained and save his
> life.
> After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
> and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
> and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
> (no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
> immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
> dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
> his nose about two inches away from the poop. After a
> couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
> wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
> ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
> times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
> stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
> life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> myself.
> So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for novices.
> Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
> -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to
> reply via e-mail
"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<handsomemorri...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a236iv0ngp58gv9jm...@4ax.com...
> On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT, dogstar...@aol.com (DogStar716)
> wrote:
> >>>Never mind dogman :)
> >>You too? Some folks just never learn.
> >Uh huh :)
> One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh huh" a lot.
> >>PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
> >>list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
> >>matter how loud you scream otherwise.
> >May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be on a list
> >to use Koehlers
> >methods or teach his methods.
> Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that not
> every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
> Sheesh.
> This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but if she's
> hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as far from a
> Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can possibly be.
> Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
> I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
> >>http://www.koehlerdogtraining. com/patoflearn.html
> >Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that whoever
> >wrote it knows nothing about PR based training:
> >"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in
> >Positive Reinforcement
> >Only training systems"
> >You cannot use PR only.
> Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
> other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
> You know, the PPers.
> And they do it quite loudly, too.
> Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?
> Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.
> >And if you knew anything about PR BASED training, you would
> >realize that. It's not all cookies and babytalk.
> There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome Jack
> Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool in my bag,
> including R-, P, and P-, because I know that even R has its
> limits.
> You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in the
> sand.
> > But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.
> The Koehlerites have no battle cry.
> They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more than
> enough.
> >I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a proper
> >leash correction as I
> >do not rely on a leash to control or teach my dog.
> That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but it's not
> suitable for the majority of dog owners, especially since
> the advent of leash laws.
> Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler training,
> Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in need of a leash.
> That you apparently don't know that, once again shows me
> just how ignorant of anything to do with Koehler you are.
> >My last two dogs have been trained offleash right from the
> >start, using rewards for what I like, and nothing for what
> >I don't like.
> Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
> for you, fine. But it's not good enough for many of the
> rest of us.
> >Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.
> I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
> you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
> behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
> informed discussion with you.
> PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to keep
> denying that those certain harsh methods are only for LAST
> RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE A DOG'S LIFE, even
> after I've repeatedly given you direct *quotes* from
> Koehler's book saying just that. It's like you don't even
> care how stupid people think you are, or how devious you
> are, etc. That can't help your cause any. You'd think that
> you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even if you're
> not. -
>
> - Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
> to reply via e-mail
Here, permit The Amazing Puppy Wizard to
give you a hand with that little pin, tommy...
There. That's FIXED. ENJOY!
NHOWE START WALKIN THE WALK.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{); ~ ) >
Paula
Is it a case of rescues that want to place as many dogs as possible so
they minimize the dog's actual needs and quirks? I see that in a
couple of rescues around here. Back when I was doing dalmatian
rescue, I was asked to help a woman who fostered a bunch of dogs kind
of far away from me but close enough to drive out and help by taking
one or two of them in to my house. When I went out there, she had a
whole bunch of kennel runs on her property in the middle of nowhere
with barking dals in each of them. That was okay. Better than dead
and they did have food, water, shelter, etc. She had no kids and she
said none of the dals could be in her house at all because her
personal dog was dog aggressive and would fight with any dog that came
in the house. I guess the dog had enough issues with the dogs out in
the yard. That's not what bothered me. What bothered me was the
listings that she would put on the rescue website. She would talk
about being housetrained and having house manners as well as how good
the dogs were with other dogs. I presume that this was because it
would attract more adopters, but how on earth would she know? After I
had been doing rescue for a while and had been adopting out more dogs
than she was, she asked what I was doing and I told her that families
with kids want dalmatians so I was training them to be really good
around kids. The next thing I knew, she was putting on all her
listings how good her dogs were with kids. It made me furious because
adopting dogs who had never been around children much, never mind
trained to be good around children eating, playing, etc. to families
with kids who thought the dogs were already good with kids could lead
to huge disasters for kids and dogs alike. Around the same time, I
heard that one of the dogs I had taken from her to foster but had to
pass on to another family with older children and no other fosters
because it was so rambunctious, had bitten the teenaged boy in the new
foster family. I found this out because the new foster was calling me
to find out what to do as the woman who was listing the dog and
supposed to be responsible for it (she had set up the new foster and
continued to list the dog when I was fostering it) told her she was on
her own.
I don't think it is good to be so picky about foster and adoption
situations that you don't move many dogs while other dogs are dying,
but some people aren't picky enough. When they are then dishonest in
ways that can really cause harm, it makes me really angry. I have a
feeling that a GH adopted out as needing only a couple of walks for
exercise and having no fenced yard to run, though it wouldn't be up
there with good with kids when not or not tested, would be on the not
picky enough side for me.
Paula
>Ok,to answer your questions more clearly, I PERSONALLY feel: if you are
>able to walk, if your dog is able to walk, if there are no forests around
>your area, if there no parks around your area, if there are no schools
>around your area, (which it sounds like there are none) then open your front
>door and walk down the street to the store pick up a newspaper and turn
>around and walk back to your house, or get into your car and drive someplace
>where you can walk your dog; What is the problem. If you dog is too ill; if
>you are too ill, if your dog is too old, if you are too old; then don't do
>it. Use your head.
>What dumb questions you ask me, like where am I going to find a forest in
>Iowa; what if some people are unable to walk; what if I don't own a forest
>or a private forest?????? These are the questions you are asking me, and
>quite frankly, the questions seem a little odd.
The questions may seem odd to you because it appears that you are on a
different wavelength from the questioners. If you are not trying to
say that everyone who is not ill or old or whose dog is not ill or old
should be walking their dog every day for exercise, then please
clarify because that is what it looks like you are saying, repeatedly.
Other people are questioning that because their dogs needs are
different. For example, they have dogs who need to run but aren't
allowed around town off leash. Your response was to take them to the
forest like you do. The response was what if there is no forest or
town nearby or store to walk to because of what you were saying, not
because the questioner give's a rat's behind about forestry. So then
you ask why people are asking about forests and we are all smacking
our foreheads because you are the one who brought it up. So, here is
the bottom line. Can you accept that no one here thinks walking dogs
is bad or that you are doing wrong by walking your dog daily for its
main exercise given your dog, yourself and your surroundings and
circumstances. But the people here also don't think that walking dogs
for 45 minutes a day is the only or even the best way to exercise
their dog's body or mind given their dogs, themselves and their
surroundings and circumstances. Can you accept that? If you can, say
so straight up and I can't think of anybody who would be arguing with
you. But when you come in here appearing to say that your way is the
only way unless you're too infirm or lazy-assed to do right by your
dog, you're going to get some challenge on that. If you don't mean to
say that, be clear and change the appearance. If you do mean to say
that, can you see why it might not be getting a good reception? And
these are people who do a lot with their dogs so not caring enough
about the dogs or just not wanting to bother with them is not the
issue. Of course they are going to try to explain to you why you
should not judge every dog and dog owner by a hard and fast walking
rule and of course they are going to get frustrated when you don't
seem to get that not every circumstance and dog is just like yours or
close enough that they should all do things the same way. Does that
make sense?
sighthounds & siberians
Paula wrote:
> Is it a case of rescues that want to place as many dogs as possible so
> they minimize the dog's actual needs and quirks?
Probably so. There are lots of ex-racing Greyhounds looking for homes
every year, and as you know, some rescues respond to such need by
painting their breed as the perfect dog for everyone. How anyone can
thing that a breed that's selectively bred for its speed can be happy
getting all its exercise on the end of a leash for the rest of its life
is beyond me. We adopt to people without fenced yards, after they've
told me the arrangements they've made for running the dog in a fenced
area once a week. Or, we place dogs that were injured and can't/don't
want to run in those homes. We end up placing fewer dogs than other
rescues, but I can live with that.
> I don't think it is good to be so picky about foster and adoption
> situations that you don't move many dogs while other dogs are dying,
> but some people aren't picky enough. When they are then dishonest in
> ways that can really cause harm, it makes me really angry. I have a
> feeling that a GH adopted out as needing only a couple of walks for
> exercise and having no fenced yard to run, though it wouldn't be up
> there with good with kids when not or not tested, would be on the not
> picky enough side for me.
Our only adoption policy that's non-negotiable is no invisible fence.
Adopters haven't appeared to have a huge amount of trouble finding
places to let their Greyhounds run; it's just a matter of educating
your adopters about what the breed needs. Certainly I agree that it's
not good to be overly picky on issues that don't affect dogs' safety
and health. We have adopters who feed foods and treats that I would
never feed, but it's not going to kill their dogs and probably isn't
going to harm them. On the other hand, I'm not going to lower my
standards simply because of numbers. I'm not the one who bred the dogs
or made money from their racing careers; I'm not responsible for dogs
that die without ever knowing what it's like to live in a home. All I
can do is what I think is best for the dogs I take responsibility for
by bringing them into our program.
Being dishonest about foster dogs in your care is dangerous to
potential adopters, but what I can't understand is that some rescue
folks don't get that it also isn't going to do their breed any favors
in the long run. It's why I think that dog or human aggressive
Greyhounds (both rare, especially human aggressive) should never leave
the track. In a breed known for being docile with people and good with
other dogs, aggression could cost a lot of lives.
Edsel Ford
Suja
> Really?
> When I looked into Ohio Rescues after Danny died, and was seeking to
> foster-first, and adopt if it worked out, a greyhound, It was my
> experience that locality was an issue. I wasn't within range to be
eligible
> to foster or adopt.
I can see how that would be a problem. If there is no one near enough to
you to do a home visit, they may not have a choice but to turn you down. I
know that with our rescue, the apps that we receive from the boonies take a
whole lot longer to get done than others. I've done a couple of these, and
it isn't easy to set aside a whole day to do nothing more than drive over
and drive back.
Suja
sighthounds & siberians
diddy wrote:
> in thread news:1152563004.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> "sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> whittled the following
> words:
> >
> > Our only adoption policy that's non-negotiable is no invisible fence.
>
> When I looked into Ohio Rescues after Danny died, and was seeking to
> foster-first, and adopt if it worked out, a greyhound, It was my
> experience that locality was an issue. I wasn't within range to be eligible
> to foster or adopt.
We usually confine our operations to northeast Ohio because a home
visit is part of our process. However, we will work with someone who
lives outside of that range if there is no other group closer to them.
I know you're in a rural area and am not sure what groups there are
near you, if any. I'd hope that the group closest to you (even if that
was some distance away) would have worked with you, but a lot of times
things I hope for don't happen. We'd have worked with you, though,
even though we're a good distance away, because I 'know' you well
enough to be confident of the type of owner you are.
How is your puppy doing?
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
A lot of groups will contact people from other rescues, even other
breed rescues, in situations like that. I think it's kind of silly to
let a good home slip away because of distance - - there has to be a
better solution.
Mustang Sally
Paula
<grey...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>A lot of groups will contact people from other rescues, even other
>breed rescues, in situations like that. I think it's kind of silly to
>let a good home slip away because of distance - - there has to be a
>better solution.
I've done home visits for other groups in my time. It seemed like it
was worth it for a dog to get a home faster. But then, it didn't take
the whole day, either. I imagine if you are out far enough in the
boonies, it would be hard to get a home visit no matter how flexible
people with different organizations were about working together.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>He's Home, and it's hard to keep a good man down. He's still supposed to be
>hospitalized, but he has to go to the hospital twice a day for recheck and
>tests (which i think is overkill, everything is coming back normal)
>But mosty dogs are lost from this surgery if they are released to owners in
>this critical time frame. Mostly because the dogs are feeling better, and
>the owners think it's over and lose vigilance, and let dogs jump up and
>down from furniture, or turn them loose just "once" to go potty, and they
>rip out stuff and spring leaks during critical periods when their stitches
>are disintegrating and their repair areas haven't fully healed. Now is
>when adhesions would also be forming, which may be troubling. It's so
>essential to keep the dog on leash or crate 24/7 for 3 weeks post surgery.
>Vigilence with owners frequently will lapse and it only takes once... and
>the dog dies. He's not out of the woods (they keep cautioning me) but I'm
>pretty comfortable with where he is right now. But not comfortable enough
>to let go of the end of his leash!
>
>Thanks for asking. It's hard to keep a good man down. He's axiously
>awaiting freedom. He's looking for jobs to do, but that's rather difficult
>on the end of a leash
I'm glad he seems to be on the mend. Fingers and paws here crossed
for his continued and complete recovery.
Mustang Sally
Judith Althouse
for 45 minutes. Yes, Cesar did say that and I do agree with him (though
I do not do it every day). You see it is not just about the 45 minute
walk, it is the sights, the smells, and it is what dogs do. They WALK.
Yes, the run around in the yard, they play, the chase a ball, etc etc.
I think he is trying to make a point that they need organized exercise
and he probably assumes most people have enough sense to do what they
can handle, what their dog can handle and where they have to take their
dog. Geeeeze you don't expect the man to address every scenario and
every breed and every person.
I like what Handome Jack had to say about watching his show "It can't
Hurt"
I agree with someon else that posted I find his shows more informative
than I did his book, but that is just my opinion, doesn't mean I am
right.
For those of you that don't watch regularly. There was a show where
he took on 3 of the most traumatized abandoned dogs from Hurricane
Katrina.. He rehabilitated them and reunited one of them with it's
owners. He flew to La with the dog and the tears were rolling when he
saw the dog he saved reunited with his family.
I wish I was going to one of his seminars one near me sold out in a
heart beat. I guess what I am wondering is for anyone that has seen the
show, read the book, or been to a seminar. Can you honestly say you
didn't get one piece of information from him, even if it was only
reinforcing something you were doing? I dunno....I try to learn all the
time....it is so absurd to argue about 45 minutes of walking in my
opinion. I think any amount you can do is good and if you don't do it
for the full 45 the world is not gonna end... or if your opinion is to
open the back door and let your dog run around the yard and that is
enough for you, then so be it. Cesar has so much other great
information to impart, it is a shame that this thread was all about 45
minutes of walking....
Viva Cesar Millan
Be Free,
Judy
jav...@yahoo.com
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
> A lot of groups will contact people from other rescues, even other
> breed rescues, in situations like that. I think it's kind of silly to
> let a good home slip away because of distance - - there has to be a
> better solution.
It isn't just the home visit. There's also the difficulty of doing
long distance support or intervention if there are problems.
Paula
Althouse) wrote:
>or if your opinion is to
>open the back door and let your dog run around the yard and that is
>enough for you, then so be it.
There you go! It's about what works for the dogs, not some magical
formula. Thanks for putting that part in your post. It's refreshing
to see that acknowledged by a Cesar fan.
> Cesar has so much other great
>information to impart, it is a shame that this thread was all about 45
>minutes of walking....
The thread was about the attitude more than the walking. If others
had said what I highlighted up there, I don't think it would have been
a big deal. I didn't start out a fan or a detractor, but the reaction
of those who take the recommendation as an absolute requirement
whether or not it is the best thing for the particular dog was
starting to make me think that Cesar was doing some damage in how he
was translating to his public. I'd like to think that people could
figure out that you have to tailor the exercise and mental stimulation
to the needs of the dogs and their people and surroundings no matter
how Cesar put it and I'd like to think that Cesar is not as cut and
dried as some people have been interpreting him.
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Cesar has so much other great
> information to impart, it is a shame that this thread was
> all about 45 minutes of walking....
It wasn't only about 45 minutes of dog walking, it was about one
poster who seems to think that those who believe other forms
of exercise are better for their particular breed/dogs are wrong
in their individual choices.
Then it went a little deeper - many of us put advanced training
on our dogs and also compete with them. Personally, I don't
like to be told that I'm not meeting my dogs' needs based on a
snap-shot view of me and mine. (Whatever happened to lurking
for a while?) pfoley, and now you, seem to be taking a one-
dimensional view of this discussion.
And, FWIW, some of the best dicussions occur when the thread
drifts to more general concepts, like flooding in this case.
And and FWIW, I watch Millan every couple of weeks, and don't
have a problem with him or his style. I don't have dog issues
of the type he addresses on his show, but I suspect he does
*way* more good than harm.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Janet B
>or if your opinion is to
>open the back door and let your dog run around the yard and that is
>enough for you, then so be it.
I think you've missed the point. "Enough" is MORE for many of us.
Leash walks, as you've pointed out (and nobody has disagreed) are
lovely things for many reasons. But they don't provide AEROBIC
exercise, which many dogs (especially the breeds/types that often find
themselves in shelters) need to stay sane and healthy.
Mindless play is not a bad thing, but focused retrieving for instance,
offers mind and body exercise and IMO is an ideal way to exercise a
dog (ok, having retriever breeds makes this a little easier to
accomplish!).
Walks provide a different kind of structure, and are absolutely
beneficial to dogs. My walks are much shorter than 45 minutes, but
vary by location a great deal, so the dogs get plenty of sights and
sounds exposure.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
sighthounds & siberians
Yes, I know.
Mustang Sally
Suja
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message:
> I wouldn't need long distance intervention or support. Nor short distance
> either, for that matter
But the rescue has no way of knowing that.
Suja
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>Now I have Tuck, Everything is good. But Tuck is my last dog. No more after
>him. I'm finished
I can't imagine sticking to that, but if you say so..........
I HAVE made that decision about cats though, but will always have at
least one dog. Life wouldn't be the same....
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>in thread news:p1a7b2dtognv1kkat...@4ax.com: sighthounds &
>siberians <x...@ncweb.com> whittled the following words:
>I wouldn't need long distance intervention or support. Nor short distance
>either, for that matter
Really, most people don't, for this breed. There are breed-specific
questions and concerns, but we don't often see the type of behavioral
issues that might be more common in other breeds, and most of them can
be solved with a little common sense and a decent obedience class.
It's the job of the adoption group to identify dogs with issues that
need more experienced foster homes/owners. Certainly people return
dogs they've adopted, but it usually isn't because of a behavioral
problem they were unable to solve.
Adoption groups don't know the people who are applying to them, of
course. But I think it's possible to know your dogs, and to evaluate
potential foster homes/adopters and their levels of dog experience, so
that a placement could be made in a situation like this. It isn't as
though you live in Wyoming, after all. It's too bad you didn't
contact us, Diddy; we'd have worked with you.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
I don't agree with that. Part of the job of a rescue group is to
evaluate potential adopters. I'm capable of doing a pretty good job
of assessing a person's level of dog knowledge, and I'm not
clairvoyant or a genius. I think some groups just don't want to
bother with rural areas because it's more time-consuming.
Mustang Sally
TaraG
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:8jc7b295k6l85i04o...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:01:24 -0400, "Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message:
>>
>>> I wouldn't need long distance intervention or support. Nor short
>>> distance
>>> either, for that matter
>>
>>But the rescue has no way of knowing that.
>
> I don't agree with that. Part of the job of a rescue group is to
> evaluate potential adopters. I'm capable of doing a pretty good job
> of assessing a person's level of dog knowledge, and I'm not
> clairvoyant or a genius.
After all the years you've been doing this, I have no doubt you have honed
your assessment skills. Assessing a person's level of knowledge isn't always
the same thing as whether or not they'd be a good home, though.
I know a woman who worked in exotics rescue (I'm sure I've mentioned this
story before, so you all might have to bear with me :-). She had a great
relationship with other rescues, and with a few breeders. In fact, she had a
GSD from a really conscientious breeder (bought before the "issues" came
up), and this breeder was (and may still be, for all I know) sending her out
to do home checks for other prospective buyers.
Just under two years ago, she came down with such a bad bout of asthma that
she landed in the hospital. It was only because I refused to just "reach in
the door and grab the dogs" and actually insisted on going inside to check
on the other animals I knew she had (she's been in the hospital two days by
then) that I found out she had been *hoarding* for years. I can't even
describe the conditions....I've never seen anything like it. And very
reputable rescues were *still* adopting animals to her. Of course each new
rescue didn't know that she had just adopted another animal from a different
rescue a month before :-( Or that she still had 10 animals from her old
rescue days that no one else was "good enough" for living in one room of a
two and a half room apartment.
But she was knowledgeable, presented like the word's most perfect owner, and
her dogs (the only animals that people really saw regularly outside) looked
to be in amazing shape and were very well trained.
That situation totally turned my head around when it comes to taking people
at face value.
Tara
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>in thread news:l2c7b2lt3cpnmj19t...@4ax.com: sighthounds &
>siberians <x...@ncweb.com> whittled the following words:
>
> It's too bad you didn't
>> contact us, Diddy; we'd have worked with you.
>>
>> Mustang Sally
>>
>>
>
>I never guessed, I looked at greyhound websites, made some contacts, was
>told I wasn't eligible, and understand that rules were rules, and totally
>understand why rules exists as they were, and resigned to them.
>It never occurred to me that I might be an exception
Everybody's different, but as I said yesterday, the only rule or
policy we have that we don't make exceptions to is no invisible
fences. I assume you told the groups you contacted that you do
Elkhound rescue, and the kinds of things you've done with your dogs?
If so, I'm kind of boggled that they didn't see a difference between
you and JQP, although again, every group has the right to their own
rules. When I applied to adopt Trissa the Bizarro Borzoi, the
president of the national group (who lives in the boonies herself - -
I've been there) did arrange a home visit for me. It was pretty
funny, because the person who did it had never done one before and had
no idea what to say. Also, she brought her show bitch with her, and
she annoyed my Greyhounds to no end. I think the home visit was a
formality, because the president and I had emailed back and forth
extensively and talked on the phone quite a bit as well, and she had a
good idea of the type of home we are - - we drove 8 hours each way to
pick up Triss, staying at the president's house overnight at her
insistence, and Triss ended up being the most damaged and challenging
dog out of the 28 seized. The point of all this is that with national
groups like this, most of their adoptions aren't "local". Borzoi
certainly aren't GSDs or Sibes, but it's not uncommon for the rescues
to have behavioral issues more challenging than the average ex-racing
Greyhound. Sometimes rescue groups need to think outside the box.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>
>"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
>news:8jc7b295k6l85i04o...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:01:24 -0400, "Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't need long distance intervention or support. Nor short
>>>> distance
>>>> either, for that matter
>>>
>>>But the rescue has no way of knowing that.
>>
>> I don't agree with that. Part of the job of a rescue group is to
>> evaluate potential adopters. I'm capable of doing a pretty good job
>> of assessing a person's level of dog knowledge, and I'm not
>> clairvoyant or a genius.
>
>After all the years you've been doing this, I have no doubt you have honed
>your assessment skills. Assessing a person's level of knowledge isn't always
>the same thing as whether or not they'd be a good home, though.
The two arguments presented for not doing an adoption in a rural area
like Diddy's were the home visit, and ability to provide intervention
or support. Finding someone from another breed rescue to do a home
visit solves the first problem and would most likely reveal that a
person is a hoarder. The potential adopter having a high level of dog
knowledge and experience would reassure me that they could probably
handle any problems they encountered with a Greyhound.
Mustang Sally
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>When I had Tuck's litter, all the puppies died except the one I was
>keeping, and the one the breeder was keeping. It turned out the bitch had
>never been able to carry more than two pups, because she had nutritional
>issues in her uterus with the blood supply.
Diddy, I have a question for you.
Please don't take it the wrong way. I also may not have correctly
understood your comments above.
Do you think it's generally a good idea to pass on the genes of a
bitch who is "never able to carry more than two pups"? And couldn't
her "nutritional issues" be espressed in other potentially negative
ways, too?
PS: I'm really glad to hear the good news about Tuck. I know he's not
out of the woods yet, but it's sounding better for him.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Suja
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message:
> Finding someone from another breed rescue to do a home
> visit solves the first problem and would most likely reveal that a
> person is a hoarder.
There are a couple of problems with this. First of all, there is an
assumption that there is a rescue group in the potential adopter's area.
This is not always the case, and a lot of people live in areas where there
are no shelters, pounds and animal control, never mind rescue. Secondly,
you have to have a good enough relationship with and trust in the other
rescue that you would trust them to make an evaluation on someone's ability
to keep a dog of a breed they are not familiar with. Depending on the home
checker and the rescue involved, this may or may not work out. I know that
I am very, very thorough with my HVs, and spend a considerable amount of
time getting to know the family and their needs, and making recommendations
for the type of dog that is most likely to succeed with them. I have also
seen HV reports that were as brief as 'Nice family. Approved for a dog.'
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in rescues helping each other out, and have
in fact done HVs for rescues that do not have a presence in our area.
However, I have also seen this fail, most recently with Brittany rescue, and
the amount of work and coordination involved in getting the dog to the
adopter and back was not insubstantial.
>The potential adopter having a high level of dog
> knowledge and experience would reassure me that they could probably
> handle any problems they encountered with a Greyhound.
Dog knowledge does not equal breed knowledge, and someone who has previously
had German Shepherds need not necessarily know what it takes to keep a
Greyhound safe and happy. I am always surprised by people who have had dogs
all their lives say things to the effect of 'When I retire and downsize, I
want a Basenji. They're small, clean, don't bark, and don't shed much'.
Boy, are they in for a surprise!
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>in thread news:ufi7b2dnbd79ojsq6...@4ax.com: Handsome Jack
>Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> whittled the following words:
>
>>
>> Do you think it's generally a good idea to pass on the genes of a
>> bitch who is "never able to carry more than two pups"? And couldn't
>> her "nutritional issues" be espressed in other potentially negative
>> ways, too?
>>
>
>Nope. This was her second litter. We never established a pattern. After the
>second litter failure, the repro vet suggested rebreeding her on the next
>heat.
Two failures in a row wouldn't constitute a pattern?
>This occured. The litter is now a week old. All pups were lost
>except two (again) and she was spayed. It was discovered that she had
>uterine circulation issues on spay.
Better late than never.
>Since Tuck is my last dog, and I don't intend to breed him, but did promise
>to finish his championship before neutering him, his uterine condition
>doesn't bother me much *wink*
Heh. On the other hand, those same "issues" might be expressed (in
other ways) in the males.
>And yes, It's possible the nutritional issues may be expressed in other
>ways as well. Such as Bone development.
You bet. And the immune system, etc.
>It's obvious his brain's ok.
Well, he did manage to pick a pretty good owner. :)
>It's a concern. Sometimes things are discovered after the fact.
Was the dog the same one for all three breedings?
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>>> Do you think it's generally a good idea to pass on the genes of a
>>>> bitch who is "never able to carry more than two pups"? And couldn't
>>>> her "nutritional issues" be espressed in other potentially negative
>>>> ways, too?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope. This was her second litter. We never established a pattern.
>>>After the second litter failure, the repro vet suggested rebreeding
>>>her on the next heat.
>>
>> Two failures in a row wouldn't constitute a pattern?
>
>When I agreed to do the breeding, she had one previous litter.
I'm not really talking about your litter; just the fact that they bred
her again *after* two failures in a row.
[...]
>I'm not responsible for the last litter. But she did do that breeding
>under the advisement of the top repro guy in the world.
There is such a guy? :)
>And spayed on the
>same advisement. The bitch is in California.
I think he waited too long. But who am I to argue wih "the top repro
guy in the world"? :D
>A different stud was used all three times. The first two times were frozen
>semen AI. So small litter sizes were not considered really alarming.
>In Danny's litter she had 6 puppies. And lost 4, and everyone blamed the
>frozen semen which had been on store for 13 years.
I don't know that much about the Elkhound gene pool, Diddy, but are
there no better ways to find EXEMPLARS in the breed than relying on
AI?
And not all AI techniques produce equal results. Especially if it's
not a fresh (on-site) dog-to-dog collection and insemination.
Nope, I'm not a big fan of AI. Too easy to hide "stuff."
>When the LAST breeding did the same, and she still had two live puppies
>under natural breeding, we decided there was an issue
Again, better late than never.
[...]
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
sighthounds & siberians
Suja wrote:
> There are a couple of problems with this. First of all, there is an
> assumption that there is a rescue group in the potential adopter's area.
> This is not always the case, and a lot of people live in areas where there
> are no shelters, pounds and animal control, never mind rescue. Secondly,
> you have to have a good enough relationship with and trust in the other
> rescue that you would trust them to make an evaluation on someone's ability
> to keep a dog of a breed they are not familiar with. Depending on the home
> checker and the rescue involved, this may or may not work out. I know that
> I am very, very thorough with my HVs, and spend a considerable amount of
> time getting to know the family and their needs, and making recommendations
> for the type of dog that is most likely to succeed with them. I have also
> seen HV reports that were as brief as 'Nice family. Approved for a dog.'
I know a greyhound rescue person who said this for every home visit she
did for us. That's why pre-adoption screening is not limited to a home
visit.
> >The potential adopter having a high level of dog
> > knowledge and experience would reassure me that they could probably
> > handle any problems they encountered with a Greyhound.
>
> Dog knowledge does not equal breed knowledge, and someone who has previously
> had German Shepherds need not necessarily know what it takes to keep a
> Greyhound safe and happy.
I know that, Suja. But someone who has had GSDs is likely to be able
to handle any behavioral problems presented by the average ex-racer,
which I think is what I said. They don't have to figure out what it
takes to keep a Greyhound safe and happy. We tell them that, when they
attend meet & greets, in our FAQ, in discussions prior to the home
visit, in the book "Adopting the Racing Greyhound" that we require all
adopters to read.
> I am always surprised by people who have had dogs
> all their lives say things to the effect of 'When I retire and downsize, I
> want a Basenji. They're small, clean, don't bark, and don't shed much'.
> Boy, are they in for a surprise!
Yes, they are. But Basenjis aren't Greyhounds. Ex-racing Greyhounds
are pretty easy dogs, which is something I know after having more
difficult breeds - - Dalmatians, Siberian Huskies - - and because I
also have other, more challenging breeds now. So someone who has
experience with more difficult breeds is likely to be able to handle an
ex-racing Greyhound. I'm not just talking out of my ass here; I've
been doing this for 11 or 12 years and have seen this particular belief
of mine proven. I'm not suggesting that what I say is true for every
other breed in the world; I'm talking about the breed that I rescue.
I'm simply suggesting here that sometimes, instead of coming up with 15
reasons why, say, a rural placement won't work, rescue groups need to
think about ways they might be able to make it work.
Mustang Sally
TaraG
"sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:1152638361....@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I'm simply suggesting here that sometimes, instead of coming up with 15
> reasons why, say, a rural placement won't work, rescue groups need to
> think about ways they might be able to make it work.
Then I misunderstood your point earlier. My post about the hoarder was
because I assumed (I know....silly me) that you were saying that you felt
you could screen homes via gauging someone's knowledge about dogs. I took
this to mean that there were cases (albeit rare) where home visits wouldn't
be required.
In the case I was talking about, the rescues didn't do home visits because
a) she was really well known in the neighborhood, and seen daily out with
her dogs. She was also known as an exceptional pet care provider for others,
thereby furthering her exposure as a great handler/caregiver. Once you've
gotten to know someone over the course of years, and seen them handle their
own dogs beautifully over that time, its easy to get a false sense of
"knowing" that person. If I'm not mistaken, that's even happened here on the
newsgroups at least once. b) once she was up for an animal, she "cashed in
on" the fact that they knew her and only had to come up with the barest
excuse for why she couldn't do a home visit that night, or that weekend, or
next week, etc. She presented extremely well, people knew her personally,
saw her handling, saw the condition of her animals (though not nearly all of
them, to be sure), had they spent hour after hour with her in the dog run
over the course of years. So, if she deflected one or two appointments with
reasonable sounding excuses, they believed her.
I was saying that there is never a good reason to forgo a home visit....no
matter how far away someone is. If that's not what you meant, then I missed
it. But then I ran out of coffee today and I've been suffering for it ever
since.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>I was saying that there is never a good reason to forgo a home visit....
I have one.
1. A dog is either going to have to die today because there is no more
room at the inn.
or...
2. You're going to have to give a dog to someone without first
performing a home visit.
Pick one.
Home visits are a very good thing, but they're not the only thing.
That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
sighthounds & siberians
TaraG wrote:
> "sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
> news:1152638361....@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I'm simply suggesting here that sometimes, instead of coming up with 15
> > reasons why, say, a rural placement won't work, rescue groups need to
> > think about ways they might be able to make it work.
>
> Then I misunderstood your point earlier. My post about the hoarder was
> because I assumed (I know....silly me) that you were saying that you felt
> you could screen homes via gauging someone's knowledge about dogs. I took
> this to mean that there were cases (albeit rare) where home visits wouldn't
> be required.
I have never, ever said either one of those things, because I do not
believe either of them. We had an adopter a few years back who used to
do competitive obedience with GSDs and Malamutes. She was also an
obedience instructor who personally knew Ian Dunbar and Michael Fox and
who knows who else. I felt like a fool doing a home visit, but I did
one. I guess it paid off; when she retired completely and moved south,
she gave me her entire library of dog behavior and training books!
We were talking about the problem of home visits in remote/rural areas.
If Diddy had applied to us for a Greyhound, I wouldn't have done a
home visit myself - - too far. I would try to find someone from
another breed rescue to do a home visit, but that might not be possible
either. In the meantime, I would use written application, vet checks,
and probably personal references to verify what I 'know' about her from
these forums. We usually narrow down people's choices, both because we
know our dogs and because we don't have a large number of dogs, and
often there is only one dog that we think is the best match for an
adopter. (Potential adopters know this up front, so that if they want
to pick from 30 dogs or to pick the prettiest color doggy they go to
another group.) So, assuming that one dog was identified as the
foster/adoptee for Diddy, I'd get someone to drive with me to where she
lives so I could meet her personally and make sure she didn't have 57
rabbits in her house or something along those lines.
> In the case I was talking about, the rescues didn't do home visits because
> a) she was really well known in the neighborhood, and seen daily out with
> her dogs. She was also known as an exceptional pet care provider for others,
> thereby furthering her exposure as a great handler/caregiver. Once you've
> gotten to know someone over the course of years, and seen them handle their
> own dogs beautifully over that time, its easy to get a false sense of
> "knowing" that person. If I'm not mistaken, that's even happened here on the
> newsgroups at least once. b) once she was up for an animal, she "cashed in
> on" the fact that they knew her and only had to come up with the barest
> excuse for why she couldn't do a home visit that night, or that weekend, or
> next week, etc. She presented extremely well, people knew her personally,
> saw her handling, saw the condition of her animals (though not nearly all of
> them, to be sure), had they spent hour after hour with her in the dog run
> over the course of years. So, if she deflected one or two appointments with
> reasonable sounding excuses, they believed her.
There are always going to be situations like this that slip through the
cracks. Fortunately, situations like the one you describe are
relatively few and far between.
> I was saying that there is never a good reason to forgo a home visit....
I agree with that. I don't believe that I suggesting foregoing a home
visit as a solution to the distance problem.
Mustang Sally
TaraG
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:afo7b2lktpl016675...@4ax.com...
I guess that's because you didn't see the conditions these animals were
living under.
To each his own, but no one was doing animals any favors by giving them to
this woman.
Tara
sighthounds & siberians
> home checks. But do rescues that a potential adopter offers up themselves
> count?
Sure, unless you're the only person affiliated with that rescue. ;-)
Obedience clubs, tracking organizations, therapy organizations, any of
those would be a way to 'check a person out' independently and
objectively.
> None in the house.. but I have about 20 out in the yard hopping free. I
> didn't at the time I was applying for a Greyhound.
> I obtained them, because a rabbit show breeder always asks me to put down
> rabbits of incorrect temperament. I looked at a perfectly healthy rabbit
> that was meaner than a viper, and I thought "survivor" was written all over
> it. I'm thinking, ok this rabbit is incorrect temperament to be a pet
> rabbit, but it's got great true survival temperament. Why kill a perfectly
> healthy rabbit? And I decided to test it. If it lives and avoided predators
> for even a day, it had a better life than dead, and it lives a better life
> even for a day than forever looking at a 3 x 4 wire cage. So I turned it
> loose. And it lived. When the breeder brought some more, and found it was
> surviving, she started turning them loose here. 3 rabbits have now
> multiplied into 20 or so.
Yeah, they do that. I didn't mean rabbits specifically, just a
reference to being a hoarder. I would never advertise a Greyhound as
being rabbit safe, but we've placed plenty that live in harmony with
house rabbits. Rabbits in the yard are another story - - many
Greyhounds that are small animal safe inside will still chase and kill
a rabbit (or a ...) outdoors.
> I have met many greys, and they are so soft. Not only to the touch, but in
> their demeanor. I enjoy working with soft dogs and finding the key to
> opening their horizons.
Yes, they do have soft temperaments. We don't often find people who
actually want to do things with their Greyhounds; I'm sorry that we
missed the chance with you. But then, if you had a Greyhound, you
wouldn't have Tuck, and now that you do, I know you wouldn't want to
have missed having him.
> I not only have a fenced yard, I have fenced pastures as well. I have
> invited friends with greys to come, just because I love to watch a grey
> open up and course across the field. It's inspiring.
It sure is; there's nothing like it. I visit tracks when I'm in a
racing state just so I can see that - - the dogs can't open up like
that even in a large fenced yard. We never coursed our dogs because of
the amount of time and effort required to keep them in shape and
because we wanted to concentrate on rescue. But we did course the Late
Great Zeke once, just a couple of months after he came off the track,
and it brought tears to my eyes, seeing my dog run like that.
> And I also agree. i know a woman who was a hoarder. She had a top obedience
> dog. And a breeder sold her a puppy, sight unseen. I told this breeder she
> needed to do a home check BEFORE selling that puppy!
> She said, not necessary, I know this person.
> After 5 dogs starved to death, I rescued the dog, and sent it back to the
> breeder, who was appalled. She never would have guessed.
There was a horrible, horrible situation a couple of years ago with a
supposed Greyhound rescuer, who also apparently showed in conformation
and coursed, who unbeknownst to anyone was a hoarder. Dogs were in
appalling condition, some had to be euthanized, etc. So I agree that
there can often be a thin line, and it's often very difficult to tell.
Mustang Sally
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>>I was saying that there is never a good reason to forgo a home visit....
>>
>> I have one.
>>
>> 1. A dog is either going to have to die today because there is no more
>> room at the inn.
>>
>> or...
>>
>> 2. You're going to have to give a dog to someone without first
>> performing a home visit.
>>
>> Pick one.
>>
>> Home visits are a very good thing, but they're not the only thing.
>>
>> That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.
>
>I guess that's because you didn't see the conditions these animals were
>living under.
But they were still "living."
Did you notice the "condition" of the otherwise perfectly normal
dog(s)?
I.e., as in DEAD.
>To each his own, but no one was doing animals any favors by giving them to
>this woman.
Having inflexible adoption rules probably kills more dogs than
distemper, parvo, and speeding Fed-Ex trucks combined.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
The Israel Enigma:
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071006.html
Kill, Don't Capture:
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/kill__dont_capture_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm
Paula
<grey...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>So, assuming that one dog was identified as the
>foster/adoptee for Diddy, I'd get someone to drive with me to where she
>lives so I could meet her personally and make sure she didn't have 57
>rabbits in her house or something along those lines.
YOU ARE A MEANIE PANTS!!! The greyhounds tell me that they are more
than fine with being adopted to homes with 57 rabbits in the house and
you shouldn't be worried about stuff like that.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Suja
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message:
> Actually I could have volunteered about a dozen rescues in my area to do
> home checks. But do rescues that a potential adopter offers up themselves
> count?
Absolutely, as long as they are verifiable rescues with good track records.
And then, the applicant information can be passed along to any rescue who
has the willingness and the resources to do the HV.
When I have received calls like this, I've asked them what they normally
expect out of a HV, and then do my best to fulfill their requirements. Some
like to do 20 Questions, and that really isn't my style (I find that people
volunteer the darndest things if you just let them talk), but I do make sure
that the questions are answered.
Suja
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
Judith Althouse wrote:
>
> I cannot believe this turned into such a debate
> about walking your dogs for 45 minutes.
Yeah. It's all abHOWET PREFERENCES.
> Yes, Cesar did say that
the ces, like the miserable stinkin lyin dog murderin
mental cases you're askin for advice for your own dog's
fear aggression *(so called ALPHA dominance) problems,
likeWIZE rely on EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE to FORCE CON-
TROLL: "A TIRED DOG IS A GOOD DOG".
Turig Rugaas noted the high incidence of cruciate
ligament injuries and attributed it to agility
trainin and EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE. HOWEver, like
the medical community puttin the cart in front of
the horse an CURING DIS-EASE instead of preventing
it by simply NOT DOIN what they do, most of those
"agility" dogs are in agility to FORCE CON-TROLL
of their hyperactive behaviors <{); ~ ) >
OtherWIZE, those NATURAL BORN ATHLETES WOULDN'T BREAK DHOWEN.
> and I do agree with him
the ces is a dog abusing coward.
And THAT'S HOWE COME you post here abHOWETS, Judith.
ONLY LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS and ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES
> (though I do not do it every day).
Dogs DO NOT NEED EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE to CON-TROLL
their behaviors, Judith. Humans "need" twenty minutes
of brisk walkin per day to maintain optimum heelth.
Preusmably that would suffice any dog that AIN'T WORKIN.
> You see it is not just about the 45 minute walk,
RIGHT. The discussion abHOWET abusin dogs as taught
by the ces devolved into a debate abHOWET EXXXORCISE
on accHWOENT of the MENTAL CASES you was ASKIN for
ADVICE abHOWET your own dog's FEAR AGGRESSION / ALPHA
DOMINANCE PROBLEMS are CAUSED BY the abusive methods
the ces relies on when he's finally tired the dog HOWET
and can look forward to jerkin choking alphalphal rollin
and intimdating the dogs he's vicimizing.
> it is the sights, the smells, and it is what dogs do.
Yeah. That's all well an good Judith. HOWEver IT AIN'T
GOT NUTHING TO DO with BEHAVIOR or temperament problems.
EXXXCEPT that ALL temperament and behavior problems are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING as taught by the ces and the lyin
dog abusing mental cases you're askin for ADVICE <{)' ~ ) >
> They WALK.
WHATEVER. IT'S IRRELEVENT.
> Yes, the run around in the yard, they play, the chase a ball,
> etc etc. I think he is trying to make a point that they need
> organized exercise
You mean like gettin jerked and choked on a nice walk.
> and he probably assumes most people have enough sense to do
> what they can handle, what their dog can handle and where they
> have to take their dog.
THAT'S ABSURD.
> Geeeeze you don't expect the man to address every
> scenario and every breed and every person.
HOWE COME NOT???:
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual <{): ~ ) >
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> I like what Handome Jack had to say
Let's get sumpthin straight, dog abuser. THERE AIN'T no
doGdameneD "JACK". That's tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retrievers. He's a anonaymHOWES lyin dog murderin coward
known better as DOGMAN.
> about watching his show "It can't Hurt"
THAT'S HOWE COME ONLY LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS
and ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE
MENTAL CASES POST HERE abHOWETS, Judith <{): ~ ) >
You'll notice the DISCUSSION devolve further into "RESCUE",
the faviorite heelin scam these dog murderers like to call
themselves.
> I agree with someon else that posted I find his shows more
> informative than I did his book, but that is just my opinion,
> doesn't mean I am right.
the ces HURTS and INTIMDIATES dogs, Judith. THAT'S HOWE
COME YOU'RE FIXIN TO GET RID OF WON OF YOUR DOGS.
AIN'T IT.
> For those of you that don't watch regularly. There was a
> show where he took on 3 of the most traumatized abandoned
> dogs from Hurricane Katrina..
Yeah. There was a CHOWE CHOWE in the group, wasn't there, Judith.
> He rehabilitated them
He got bit three times in three seconds when he molested the CHOWE.
> and reunited one of them with it's owners.
Yeah. LUCKY THING they didn't MURDER the CHOWE.
> He flew to La with the dog and the tears were rolling
> when he saw the dog he saved reunited with his family.
That was kindly of him.
> I wish I was going to one of his seminars
So you could learn HOWE to BE ALPHAPHAL BITCH, Judith?
> one near me sold out in a heart beat.
There's LOTS of like minded dog abusers, Judith.
> I guess what I am wondering is for anyone that has seen the
> show, read the book, or been to a seminar. Can you honestly
> say you didn't get one piece of information from him, even
> if it was only reinforcing something you were doing?
Yeah. EVERYTHING the ces does is CRUEL TO ANIMALS, Judith.
> I dunno....
RIGHT.
WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
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> I try to learn all the time....
That so? EXXXACTLY WHOAT have you "LEARNED" from the ces?
Your own dogs are FEAR AGGRESSIVE and INSECURE, Judith.
PERHAPS YOU GOTTA WALK THEM FOR 45 MINUTES A DAY JUST
LIKE HOWE the ces SEZ, eh Judith???
BWEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
> it is so absurd to argue about 45 minutes of walking in my opinion.
INDEEDY. HOWEver, the ALTERNATIVE is to DISCUSS the ces
jerking choking bribing hurting and intimidating dogs
and EXXXPLOITING ignorameHOWESES like you and the morons /
Nazis at National Geographic.
> I think any amount you can do is good
Yeah. HOWEver, IT'S IRRELEVENT, Judith.
> and if you don't do it for the full 45 the world is not gonna end...
Or if you don't do it at all and simply DO EVERYTHING EXXXACTLY
PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE the ces and these incurable mental
cases PREFER, Judith.
> or if your opinion
EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION
AIN'T a matter of OPINION, Judith <{}; ~ ) >
> is to open the back door and let your dog run around
> the yard and that is enough for you, then so be it.
THAT'S IRRELEVENT, Judith. We was talkin abHOWET jerkin
chokin bribing alphalphal rolling and intimidating innocent
defenseless dumb critters like HOWE the ces does, Judith.
REMEMBER?
> Cesar has so much other great information to impart,
HE HURTS and INTIMDIATES DOGS like HOWE you do your dogs, Judith.
> it is a shame that this thread was all about 45 minutes of walking....
Yeah. Let's talk abHOWET your ALPHA THEORY, dog lover.
> Viva Cesar Millan
ONLY PARENTS FEAR and HATE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard even MOORE than professional dog trainers,
veterinary malpracticioners and university trained behaviorists
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard has IDENTIFIED
EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED RIGHT HERE, Judith <{): ~ ) >
NEARLY EVERYWON replying to this thread has a VERY LONG
POSTED CASE HISTORY of HURTIN INTIMIDATIN an MURDERIN
innocent defenseless dumb critters an LYIN abHOWET IT.
> Be Free,
"TSSSST, calm assertive".
> Judy
BWEEEEAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA!!!
Here's a few of your newfHOWEND punk thug coward
lyin dog abusing mental case pals, Judith:
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.
Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.
> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...
> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.
From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods
Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN
THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.
That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:
Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.
Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?
E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.
So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005
Denis
------------
On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:
> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy
one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------
And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.
---------
167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"
<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.
Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.
----------
Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:
----------
141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm
I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link
on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.
So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).
But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------
HOWEDY janet,
Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...
Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.
Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.
"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."
"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
3 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 4:16 pm
montana wildhack wrote:
> On 2006-06-10 16:56:28 -0400, sighthounds & siberians <x...@ncweb.com> said:
> > Plus
> > she's easier to clean up when she
> I'm sorry to read that.
> Aside from the shedding, I hardly know how to act since we have one
> almost 5 year old dog with no major health issues. It's really weird.
I dream of such weirdness. Matty's death reduced the number of males
requiring belly bands for medical reasons, as well as the number of
dogs taking Previcox. But Anna's feeding routines and medications are
really expensive and time-consuming. On a good note, she stopped
eating canned food during the last bout of aspiration pneumonia (#5, I
think) and we switched her to kibble (soaked until soggy, then ground
up with a mixer until it's sort of a paste, and formed into balls).
*Much* cheaper, less messy when she inevitably coughs it all over the
vicinity and the person feeding, higher in calories, and she really
likes it, at least for now. I can't imagine what it would be like to
never chew anything crunchy again, poor dog.
Mustang Sally
"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.
Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.
It's all in the archives.
Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.
Here's janet's PARTNER:
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?
Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
> > I feel very sorry for her and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome
"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.
You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL.
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >
BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST
In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrnsc53>,
"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-
> Shock). If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?
If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system,
I have one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.
> I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
> more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
> walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
> so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
> watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
> props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
> I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.
I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.
That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw
culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:
From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST
"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.com>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIz...@comcast.com...
> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.
--------------------------------
"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>> how effective are these electronic fences in
>> keeping a dog on a property????
Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.
Just hides under a desk in the house.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.
She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia
"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV"
THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.
If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.
Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
>
>
On 6 Feb 2006 01:19:16 -0800,
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
> training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
> learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
> qualifications only their own experience.
What exactly does that mean?
> its because of them i am busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.
"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority. The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that. There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.
> i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
> lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
> 'trainers' said.
What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior? Do you not use a lead when training? Not on city streets?
> i guess i was as distressed as my dog.
I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.
> i took a dog out of this real nasty hell hole. the lady had set her
> self up as a rescue then had about 20 dogs running free in her back
> garden and it broke down to chaos.i took out a young lab female who
> was so scared she wouldnt climb into my car and i wasnt going to force
> her so i just sat next to her but on my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman
> growled and grabbed the dog at the back of the neck and a lump of flesh
> at the rump and threw her into my car.
What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools? So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.
>with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
>i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
>'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.
When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door,
what "nicer way" do you employ?
> the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke
> prong or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.
My neck is very different from a dog's neck. I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly. As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.
>ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
>kick my arse..............i am braced :)
Nope - don't believe in kicking. But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs. I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.
Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.
Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined
-----------------------------------------
> But I think what Lois was referring to was
> the fact that Darlene actually stated at
> some point that she was bipolar--and, IIRC,
> that meds did not work for her--so she was
> prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03
BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have
> you read "The Unquiet Mind"?
Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.
Lynn K.
---------------------------------------
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"
From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
-------------------------------------
"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.
It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.
And he was killed by bichons.
Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.
(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").
Full moon.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
> Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
> and I immediately remembered them.
YOUR STUDENT, leah. Like that RECENT GRADUATE
STUDENT Rottie who'd been in your SOCIALIZATION
classes since IT was ten weeks old who RECENTLY
MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG at the park.
> I will always remember the dogs.
Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.
From: dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
Date: 05 Nov 2002 00:55:40 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard
>"Mike E" m...@egbert.com wrote:
> My question was "Is there any legitimacy to the
> harshly-worded teachings of the Puppy Wizard?"
Any legitimate advice he gives is plagiarized from
other, more coherent sources.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :}
PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.
"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying."
Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHAHAHHHHAHHHAAAAA!!!
NHOWE THAT'S SUMPTHIN TO BE PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )
>
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Email:
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@HotMail.Com
The Incredibly Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{TIFSAGPW}; -
) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW} ; ~ } >
oo-oo
jav...@yahoo.com
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
>
> I think some groups just don't want to
> bother with rural areas because it's more time-consuming.
There's truth to that, of course. But also some operational realities
for stretched resources. If all of your adoption counselors are working
with 30-40 families at a time and also running homes and careers, it's
pretty easy to decide to limit your geographical area to a 2-3 hour
driving range.
LynnK.
Judith Althouse
read every friggin thread (all 1200 plus), before I posted despite the
fact that I had a crisis (or was concerned that I may have) I came here
for help and actually got a lot of good information, I am so sorry I
don't know every one's breed, their dog's name, age, and B-day!!!!!!
(though I am beginning to) I will post here till I get booted. Oh and
thanks for giving Cesar your stamp of approval. I certainly hope you
haven't discouraged others from posting here. I will decide when and
what I want to say. Thanks for your advice.
Be Free,
Judy
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I came here
> for help and actually got a lot of good information, I am
> so sorry I don't know every one's breed, their dog's name,
> age, and B-day!!!!!!
I'm glad that I was here to vent your anger upon.
Breathe deeply and then tell me why you're angry at me.
Judith Althouse
about I came here for help that you cut and pasted that set me
off.....it was the part about maybe I should have lurked for awhile
before posting that set me off...the word lurk (all by itself has an
ugly connotation, (in my opinion) but in reference to this group it
about caused me to have a stroke. As I said, I didn't just blithely
post. I read every single thread. I may be new in this group and thank
ny stars above I am not just exactly like everyone else here. I still
feel like I have some things to add and I will. I also have learned a
lot and plan to continue to. Sorry if misunderstood you or over
re-acted. My BP went up when I read your post suggesting that I lurk
for awhile before posting.....Ok I am over it now...and I wasn't venting
my anger. I was just telling it like I feel it....Friends Always.....
Be Free,
Judy
chris jung
> in thread news:gfb7b21qtll6fq2or...@4ax.com: Janet B
> <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following words:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:55:15 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>,
>> clicked their heels and said:
>>
>>>after him. I'm finished
>>
>> I can't imagine sticking to that, but if you say so..........
>>
>> I HAVE made that decision about cats though, but will always have at
>> least one dog. Life wouldn't be the same....
>
> I have spent a fortune in vet bills. Tuck's last two weeks vet bills have
> not been even tallied up yet. But we already know we are taking a mortgage
> out on the house to pay them.
>
> Vet costs are rising to the point I can't afford a pet. I'm old enough
> that
> I need to be thinking oif my future. And not forever paying off a house.
> The reality is, Pets are becoming a luxury. I can't grant myself those
> luxuries any more, and NOT taking care of them correctly and providing for
> their needs simply is not an option.
Hi Diddy,
I'm glad to read that your little Tuck Pup is doing OK. Give him a scritch
for me.
About the vet costs - well the amount you spent on Danny (wasn't it near 40
k?) and the bills for Tucks recent illness are frankly horrifying. We could
never afford that level of vet care. But IMHO both those case are unusual.
Having a pet is not free and, IMHO, to do it right, not cheap. I remember
hearing on an NPR show that the average cost for a dog from puppy to old age
was roughly 5K which seems like a lot but if you figure 10 years (actually I
expect more like 12 for a smoothie), it's 500 a year which I think is a
bargain for what we get in return.
Thinking back to my collies, I've had bad luck with one - Silka - born with
a bad ticker and lived to only 1.5 years. Otherwise, the others have been a
fairly healthy & lucky lot. Now we've had some episodes - when Zeffie was
11, she had a tumor on her toe (a Fibrosarcoma) and had to have two toes
amputated. IIRC that episode cost around 1K but Zeffie was one tough bitch
and considering for most of her 13.5 years she was extraordinarily healthy,
we dug into our savings and paid it.
Anyway, I hope Tucker continues to improve. And I hope he's not your last
dog. You've had some extremely bad luck and expensive vet bills. I do
think owning a pet is a luxury (in that it's not free) but I don't think
your experiences are typical.
And speaking of vet bills. Pablo took a bad step on Sunday and was
painfully lame on his left hind leg. On Monday he was off to visit Dr. Dawn
and had a bunch of x-rays which showed no fluid build up, no arthritis
anywhere (Dr. Dawn sez: "very pretty joints") and no tumors (Before the
x-rays she said his lameness could be arthritis, a ruptured ligament or a
tumor which scared the heck out of me). Her diagnosis is a strained,
possibly partially torn cruciate (sp? my spell checker can't deal with this
one) ligament. So now Pabby is home on pain meds and restricted activity
for the next 4-6 weeks. Considering what cruciate surgery costs, I'm
downright happy to pay the $200 vet bill.
Chris and her smoothies
Poor Pablo and Lucy the Goose
sighthounds & siberians
> Yes I would have. I wasn'ty planning on Tuck at the time, but a breeder had
> usked to use Danny. and I jumped at the chance. That would have in no way
> lessened the other dog.
I know it wouldn't have.
>
> I have Reka too. I don't do Reka in obedience for a couple of reasons.
> Secondly, she's badly dysplastic. I would never jump her. But first and
> foremeost, I purchased her as a companion for Danny. Knowing he was ill,
> was very sad and stressful times for me. She was a very funny dog.
> Innovative, creative and just made me laugh. Many of the things she did,
> were not exactly what I asked her for, but her creativity was so funny,
> that I laughed at her, instead of demanding perfection. In otherwords, I
> deliberately re-enforced her behaviors. I have laughed at her so much over
> the years, there isn't a thing in the world I would want to do to change
> her. There's value in laughter. But to try to change her, and fit her into
> a mold, is not something i want to do with her. I don't talk about her
> much, but she's a very important part of my life. She goes everywhere with
> me. Her recall is reliable. She's got wonderful manners. Everyone gets a
> kick out of her sense of humor. She's a sweet loving dog. Tuck was the dog
> I've been waiting for, and hoping for. But Reka doesn't take a back-seat to
> him either. And neither would a greyhound. I probably would have tried (but
> not expected) a CD on a greyhound. I would have liked to try one in
> tracking. Especially since they are sight hounds. That would have been an
> experience of mind expanding dimemsions.
I remembered you have Reka. It's quite possible to put a CD on a
greyhound, but it's easier on the human if you have a sense of humor.
Choose a greyhound with an outgoing temperament, don't expect it to
take it obedience work really seriously the way many breeds do, be
patient, and you'd have it.
> But I would have been happy with none of these, if the dog had simply
> decided to be a companion. The only deal breaker would have been, it must
> fit in a community of dogs. Dog aggression not allowed.
The same rules apply here. Fortunately, real dog aggression is pretty
rare in greyhounds.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
I'm sure that's true. Our group has never been working with anything
approaching that many applicants at a time, and I know that none of the
greyhound groups in Ohio haven't either. But every group has the right
to its own rules, policies, or whatever.
Mustang Sally
Suja
"sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message:
> The same rules apply here. Fortunately, real dog aggression is pretty
> rare in greyhounds.
I was under the impression that small dog aggression is not uncommon. There
are a few that come to the dog park that either cannot be around small dogs
or needs to wear a muzzle.
Suja
Amy Dahl
diddy wrote:
> He's Home, and it's hard to keep a good man down. He's still supposed to be
> hospitalized, but he has to go to the hospital twice a day for recheck and
> tests (which i think is overkill, everything is coming back normal)
Yay!
I just got my bitch back this morning after life-saving surgery.
She was so miserable the other day it was horrible to see, and I
didn't think she would make it. She had a day and a half of
full-time post-surgical observation (I ferried her back and forth
between the day and night clinics).
Seeing her this morning, obviously back to feeling good, was one
of the most restorative moments of my entire life.
I think she has less to worry about that your little guy, at this point.
I'm still pulling for him, and you.
Amy Dahl
sighthounds & siberians
That is not really dog aggression; it's prey drive. With a greyhound,
the desire to chase a small dog is the same as the desire to chase a
cat. That type of prey drive is not uncommon in greyhounds, though the
vast majority are fine with cats and small dogs.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
diddy wrote:
> Well small dogs wouldn't have been a problem here unlkess you counted the
> beagle, who is not a hyper jumpy, runny, yappy, facey-bitey thing that is
> either annoying or looks like prey. She pretty much holds down the couch,
> and a dog would have to go looking for a fight find fault with her.
There are a very few greyhounds with such high prey drives that they
might want to go after a beagle, but generally any greyhound would be
safe with a beagle. As you say, they don't look like prey, and that's
the issue with some greyhounds and very small dogs - - prey drive, not
aggression.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
Paula wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2006 11:01:23 -0700, "sighthounds & siberians"
> <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>
> >So, assuming that one dog was identified as the
> >foster/adoptee for Diddy, I'd get someone to drive with me to where she
> >lives so I could meet her personally and make sure she didn't have 57
> >rabbits in her house or something along those lines.
>
> YOU ARE A MEANIE PANTS!!! The greyhounds tell me that they are more
> than fine with being adopted to homes with 57 rabbits in the house and
> you shouldn't be worried about stuff like that.
Heh. I'm sure they would. I really didn't mean rabbits specifically,
it was just a reference to verifying that Diddy wasn't a hoarder and
for some reason I said rabbits instead of dogs or birds or something,
not even thinking of the obvious greyhound vs. rabbit thing. Actually,
though, and speaking only for my own greyhounds, they'd probably prefer
that the rabbits live outside, as they do at Diddy's. I had guinea
pigs a few years back and my dogs know that caged pets in the house are
off limits, so that would be no fun at all.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
diddy wrote:
> Well YAY for both of us!!!!!! What a horrid experience. I'm glad your bitch
> is home and stable. MY little guy has now reached the window where he is no
> longer critical, but is the recovery stage.
Great news from and for both of you; we're pulling for full recoveries
for both dogs.
We had a pretty worrisome day here yesterday; Blue the greyhound came
up very lame in a back leg and also had a plum-sized lymph node, but
x-rays showed only a fracture in the metatarsal bone and no signs of
bone cancer. We'll re-x-ray in a couple of months, but looks good so
far. However, Raisin the mini dachshund, who went blind literally over
a weekend a few months ago from SARD, is in the ICU; he's had bloody
poop despite treatment with metronidazole and has gained 9 pounds in 4
months - - vet thinks he has Cushing's. It's always something.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
> That, and I actually allow my dogs to chase the rabbits!!! ...... Except
> there is a much higher probability that they would be caught with a
> greyhound than with an elkhound or a beagle. And yes, the Elkhounds have
> caught them, but usually when a rabbit gets himself cornered or hits a snag
> going through a fence
Tasha the Siberian is unequalled in her ability to catch squirrels, but
she doesn't chase them, she stalks them. She's completely still until
they're convinced that she's dead or a statue or something and only
chases them when they get close enough that she knows she can catch
them. Those days are over for her now anyway, with the bone infarct.
But the only dogs that have caught rabbits here are greyhounds, and the
word seems to have gotten out as there haven't been any around for some
time.
It's a good thing dogs can't read or drive, because if my greyhounds
knew you had a fenced area with rabbits in it...
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
diddy wrote:
> Bloody poop from Cushings? Odd. Many healing thoughts to Raisin and Blue
He thinks the bloody poop in from eating grass, but I don't think he's
been eating that much grass. He thinks Cushings because of the weight
gain and depression. It's fairly common in SARD dogs.
Thanks.
Mustang Sally
sighthounds & siberians
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>Yay!
>
>I just got my bitch back this morning after life-saving surgery.
>She was so miserable the other day it was horrible to see, and I
>didn't think she would make it. She had a day and a half of
>full-time post-surgical observation (I ferried her back and forth
>between the day and night clinics).
>Seeing her this morning, obviously back to feeling good, was one
>of the most restorative moments of my entire life.
Wow. It didn't sound like it was that serious. That's really good
news. I hope the pups continue to do well, too.
Continued good luck!
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
[]
>>I just got my bitch back this morning after life-saving surgery.
>>She was so miserable the other day it was horrible to see, and I
>>didn't think she would make it. She had a day and a half of
>>full-time post-surgical observation (I ferried her back and forth
>>between the day and night clinics).
>
>>Seeing her this morning, obviously back to feeling good, was one
>>of the most restorative moments of my entire life.
>
>Wow. It didn't sound like it was that serious. That's really good
>news. I hope the pups continue to do well, too.
>
>Continued good luck!
PS: For those of you thinking about getting into breeding, say, just
for the heck of it, etc., think back to these posts about Amy's and
Diddy's ordeals.
It ain't no cup of tea.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com
aka joey finnochiarrio aka howie lipschitz aka DOGMAN you
anonymHOWES miserable stinkin lyin dog murderin coward,
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:57:54 -0400, elegy
> <el...@DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote:
>
> []
> >> But I think that having a show like this reach the masses,
> >> well, that *is* ground-breaking, and it just might have a
> >> positive effect on the folks out there who might recognize
> >> *themselves* in the folks and families he "trains" on his show.
the ces is a ABUSER. It's on accHOWENT of imbeciles who
ENJOY watchin him ABUSING innocent defenseless dumb critters
that we're MURDERIN innocent defenseless dumb PEOPLE all
over the WHOWEL WILD WORLD an callin it DEMOCRACY <{): ~ ( >
> >> It surely can't hurt.
No MOORE than Hitler HURT.
> > i don't know.... does it help or hurt when what they
> > take away from the show is "tsst",
>
> What harm could come from the "tsst"???
Well, the "tsst" has been used predominantely by
ATTACK DOG TRAINERS to aggitate their dogs <{): ~ ) >
> Other trainers have been using similar versions of
> the "tsst" for years.
On accHOWENT of it makes them suspiciHOWES and SCARES THEM.
> It's a distraction.
Fartin is a DISTRACTION too, tommy.
> Feel free to come up with your own.
FARTIN is FINE, tommy.
> For example: "psst" "yech" "acch" "ooop" Etc. :)
You mean, ANY intimidating S-HOWEND, tommy?
> > leash pop
the ces likes to jerk an choke dogs.
> What leash pop?
The WON you and your punk thug coward active acute
chronic long term incurable MENTAL CASE pals use, tommy.
> I done see no steeeeeeenkin' leash pops.
Of curse you do, tommy. You're just LYIN abHOWET IT again:
>From The Annals Of Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences
Research Laboratory
Subject: To Jerry Howe...how 'bout a response?
1From: Dogman
Date: Sun, Jan 17 1999 12:00 am
Email: dog...@i1.net (Dogman)
> I've seen advice as to how to hit your dog coming from
> them, and lots of other non productive advice.
Where have you ever seen the Monks advocating hitting a
*puppy*????????
What other "non-productive" advice have you seen in this book?
Be as specific as you can be, eh?
--
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
Dogman's *New* Web Site
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
Dogman's Book Recommendations
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
2 From: Jerry Howe
Date: Mon, Jan 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net>
While I realize that your definition of abuse differs
greatly from mine, I have spent most of the last thirty-
six years retraining dogs brought up and trained by
abusive techniques.
In The Art of Raising a Puppy , copyright 1991, the Monks
of New Skete recommend these disciplinary measures:
1. Scruff shake. (recommended for puppies, 8-12 weeks) Grab
scruff of neck, shake firmly, bark "NO!"
2. Shakedown. Grab sides of throat with both hands, lifting
dog's front feet off floor, stare, shake several times, and
bark "NO!"
3. "Using a firm cuff underneath the chin with your opened
hand...To make this correction effectively, your dog must
be anchored in a sitting position with your left hand
holding onto his collar. As you make eye contact with your
dog, cuff the underside of his mouth with your opened right
hand, rapping him sharply several times, as you say NO!"
(recommended for 5-6 month old puppies)
4. Stick finger down throat to stop mouthing or squeeze and
shake muzzle hard enough to elicit a whine, and bark "NO!"
5. To stop jumping, grab front paws of jumping pup, and force
him to remain in that position long enough to become uncomfortable.
6. Leash Pop with choke collar (Also popularized as the Margolis Jerk)
Let me start by calling attention to the recent notoriety of
shaken baby syndrome. Although dogs have a loose scruff, the
brain damage can result just the same, and disk damage may occur.
The ubiquitous leash pop is my number one gripe. It is recommended
and used by almost everyone. The sharp corrections on leash continue
throughout the life of the dog. It is recommended they be increased
in severity and frequency as the dog becomes more resistant and the
trainer thinks the dog knows what is expected of him but the dog
refuses to do it. (Dogs don't do things out of spite!)
Nerve damage can result from leash corrections. Makes me nauseous
to hear people say that dogs don't feel pain the same way we do.
As a society we don't condone treating our children or employees
that way. What makes abuse O.K. for animals? Force, abuse, and
punishment do not have any place in a learning environment!
Most of the mistakes our dogs make are not even understood by the
dog to be mistakes. The punishment is not understood, and behavior
problems result from the abuse.
If you would like to learn non abusive techniques, I recommend
the Wits' End Dog Training Method. It is being offered as a not
for profit educational organization to enhance the lives of dogs
and dog lovers. Download free at: http://www.doggydoright.com
Now it's time to recognize the responsibility of dog owners to
do right by their dogs. I've seen the pain that families go through
when they think they have to give up or kill their pets even after
this kind training.
In love and light,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsend...@aol.com
Dogman wrote:
> > I've seen advice as to how to hit your dog coming from them,
> > and lots of other non productive advice.
> Where have you ever seen the Monks advocating hitting a *puppy*????????
> What other "non-productive" advice have you seen in this book?
> Be as specific as you can be, eh?
> --
> Dogman
> dog...@i1.net
> Dogman's *New* Web Site
> http://www.i1.net/~dogman
> Dogman's Book Recommendations
> http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
3 From: Dogman
Date: Mon, Jan 18 1999 12:00 am
Email: dog...@i1.net (Dogman)
Upon my return to the Cuckoo's Nest, Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:09:42 GMT,
Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net> says:
> While I realize that your definition of abuse differs greatly
> from mine, I have spent most of the last thirty-six years
> retraining dogs brought up and trained by abusive techniques.
And I've spent almost four decades *rehabilitating* dogs that were
"trained" by those "positive only" techniques that *you* apparently
espouse -- attempting to save their lives from the gallows.
But I think I see now where you're coming from.
Geeeeeeez.
You're either a shyster -- or a PETA puke.
> In The Art of Raising a Puppy , copyright 1991, the Monks of
> New Skete recommend these disciplinary measures:
> 1. Scruff shake. (recommended for puppies, 8-12 weeks) Grab
> scruff of neck, shake firmly, bark "NO!"
>
> 2. Shakedown. Grab sides of throat with both hands, lifting
> dog's front feet off floor, stare, shake several times, and
> bark "NO!"
>
> 3. "Using a firm cuff underneath the chin with your opened hand...
> To make this correction effectively, your dog must be anchored in
> a sitting position with your left hand holding onto his collar.
> As you make eye contact with your dog, cuff the underside of his
> mouth with your opened right hand, rapping him sharply several
> times, as you say NO!" (recommended for 5-6 month old puppies)
> 4. Stick finger down throat to stop mouthing or squeeze and shake
> muzzle hard enough to elicit a whine, and bark "NO!"
>
> 5. To stop jumping, grab front paws of jumping pup, and force him
> to remain in that position long enough to become uncomfortable.
>
> 6. Leash Pop with choke collar (Also popularized as the Margolis Jerk)
Yes, and they're all EFFECTIVE and PRODUCTIVE techniques!
And TIME-PROVEN!
> Let me start by calling attention to the recent notoriety of
> shaken baby syndrome. Although dogs have a loose scruff, the
> brain damage can result just the same, and disk damage may occur.
Phoooey! Comparing SBS to a scruff shake is about the most ludicrous
thing you've said here yet, Howe, and that's among a LOT of ludicrous
stuff you've said here.
I might just as well accuse your "little black box" of emitting
DANGEROUS and possibly even DEADLY *electro-magnetic* waves capable
of causing cancers and severe brain damage!
But then again -- maybe it *does,* eh?
> The ubiquitous leash pop is my number one gripe.
Oh please...a freakin' leash pop gets your Jockey's to
ride up on you, does it?
I thought so...you're a huckster selling little black boxes. Period.
> It is recommended and used by almost everyone.
That's because it's EFFECTIVE and produces some of
the HAPPIEST and best-trained dogs in the world!
It's also because not every "trainer" is a huckster
selling little black boxes -- like you seem to be, Howe.
> The sharp corrections on leash continue throughout
> the life of the dog.
No, they don't, not if they're used *correctly* at the onset.
Sharp corrections are seldom necessary later on if they're
used correctly and timely early in the dog's training.
You'd know that if you weren't so busy selling little black
boxes and quick fixes to ignorant and *gullible* dog owners.
> It is recommended they be increased in severity and frequency
> as the dog becomes more resistant
No! It's not! Here you're just using a straw man to argue with.
Dog's don't become "resistant" to collar pops when they're used
*correctly* and *timely.*
Maybe you should actually watch it being done correctly before you
attack something you obviously know absolutely nothing about?
> and the trainer thinks the dog knows what is expected of him
> but the dog refuses to do it. (Dogs don't do things out of spite!)
Dogs refuse to do things when they don't think they have to do them!
When there's no CONSEQUENCES.
> Nerve damage can result from leash corrections. Makes me
> nauseous to hear people say that dogs don't feel pain the
> same way we do.
OIC...you're one of those AR whackos, too, are you? Well,
that's pretty much what I expected you to be from reading
just a few of your posts.
The chances of any "nerve damage" being done to a dog from
the correct application of collar pops are much less than
the chances of *you* ever being hit by a freakin' meteorite!
In fact, the chances are NIL, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, but that won't
prevent you from trying to scare people away from using a time-proven
and very effective technique in a disingenuous attempt to sell more
little black boxes to GULLIBLE dog owners.
In fact, it's people just like you, Howe, who are responsible
for the vast majority of those 1.5 MILLION dogs who have to be
KILLED each year in America because they've become incorrigible.
> As a society we don't condone treating our children or employees
> that way. What makes abuse O.K. for animals? Force, abuse, and
> punishment do not have any place in a learning environment!
What drivel!
Comparing children and dogs is one of the first signs of a PETA puke.
In the very words of Ingrid Newkirk, PETA founder:
"A man is a dog is a giraffe is a monkey is a cat..."
or something to that effect.
In other words, there is no difference between human
beings and any other animals.
Well, when the day comes that I see a Pomeranian attending
Harvard, or a human baby riding around on the back of a
macaque, maybe I'll agree myself...but until that day comes,
I think you're all a bunch of fruitcakes.
Fruitcakes who inadvertently (I think) espouse theories that when
adopted by authorities fill our prisons with undisciplined repeat
offenders and our shelters with undisciplined dogs.
> Most of the mistakes our dogs make are not even
> understood by the dog to be mistakes.
That's the only thing you've said yet that's true.
What was it...a lucky guess?
But what does that have to do with the Monks??????????
> The punishment is not understood, and behavior problems
> result from the abuse.
Again, that's simply bull ca ca.
Real punishment should always, of course, be used as
a last resort, and then only EFFECTIVE punishment.
Nine out of ten serious behavior problems that I've ever
seen were the direct result of those "positive only" methods
that you espouse!
Then what happens? The owners end up taking the dog to the
POUND for EUTHANASIA!
How that for "abuse," Howe?
That's REAL abuse.
> If you would like to learn non abusive techniques, I
> recommend the Wits' End Dog Training Method. It is
> being offered as a not for profit educational organization
> to enhance the lives of dogs and dog lovers. Download free
> at: http://www.doggydoright.com
Translation:
Yes, folks, if you would like to be taken to the cleaners by
GIMMICKS, LITTLE BLACK BOXES, MUMBO JUMBO and unmitigated BULL
CA CA, this is probably a pretty good site to visit.
Be CAREFUL what you download from this guy, though, because computer
VIRUSES can be transmitted to your computer using this method!
Yo! Howe, how 'bout some information on your "not-for-profit"
"educational organization," eh?
Are you a 501 organization?
What is your federal tax ID number?
Where can I find copies of your organization's financial statements?
When did you file for this exemption?
What are the SALARIES of the principals? What are your EXPENSES?
What accounting firm does your books?
What is BMS Productions, 201 E. Southern Ave., Suite 209, Tempe,
Arizona?
Does "Biosound Scientific" have any relationship with Biosound, Inc?
> Now it's time to recognize the responsibility of dog owners
> to do right by their dogs. I've seen the pain that families
> go through when they think they have to give up or kill their
> pets even after this kind training.
Shysters and hucksters who make claims like:
"Little black box solves all dogs
behavior problems!"
are in the *same* category (and maybe will even end up in the same
jail cell) as Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, folks!
If statements like the below don't make you HIGHLY suspicious, nothing
ever will:
"Once again, we do not seek the endorsement of our
technology through any other researchers efforts.
Nor do we care to use any other researchers
documentation to substantiate BIOSOUND
Scientifics' technology or claims. As stated earlier,
BIOSOUND Scientific was created by Elves, with
the aid of expert advice from a dog trainer."
[Screw your "elves," Howe.]
In other words, just take *our* word for it -- okay? Just because no
one else can duplicate our results, well, that alone doesn't mean that
we're FAKIRS (of course, we're FAKIRS!).
Stay away from this guy!
At least until he comes clean...
Geeeeeeeeeeez.
--
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
Dogman's *New* Web Site
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
Dogman's Book Recommendations
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
-------------------------
So tommy, HURTIN and INTIMIDATIN innocent defenseless
dumb critters desensitizes innocent defenseless dumb
gullible human critters into hurtin intimidatin and
murderin other innocent defenseless dumb human critters.
> > and alpha roll?
>
> Yes, (as I've said previously) that could get them in some trouble.
Naaah? DO TELL?: "Yes, and they're all EFFECTIVE
and PRODUCTIVE techniques! And TIME-PROVEN!"
> However, his show is *littered* with warnings not to]
> try his methods without the supervision and assistance
> of a professional trainer.
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENT of dogs NORMALLY ATTACK their abusers, tommy.
> Again, I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.
INDEEDY. And THAT'S HOWE COME you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGdameneDMOORE. REMEMBER tommy?
> YMMV.
All depends, if you're WALKIN, eh tommy?
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
HOWEDY tommy sorenson you anonymHOWES miserable lyin dog
abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic long term
mental case aka joey finochiarrio aka DOGMAN of sorenson's
Retriever Dog PUPPYMILL and cockfightin farm,
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 12 May 2006 13:24:33 -0700, "Suga" <dixie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello newbie to google wondering if there was
> > any other Great Dane breeders here
>
> Mothership to googloid newbie.
You havin another alien abduction anal probe flashback, tommy?
> Find another way to post to Usenet.
Didn't your mommy ever teach you to say 'HOWEDY'
when greetin folks, tommy? Was you raised by a
child abusing ignorameHOWES, tommy?
> Use *real* Usenet newsreader -- not Google.
HOWE COME you FEAR people using Google, tommy?
Might THAT be on accHOWENT of they might accidentally
LOOK UP your own POSTED CASE HISTORY of HURTIN
INTIMIDATIN and MURDERIN dogs an LYIN abHOWET it?
> Here's two:
>
> 1. http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php
>
> 2. http://www.slyck.com/xnews.php
>
> #2 is FREE.
Yeah, it's FREE but you STILL gotta have a NEWS SERVER
and MOST of them COST MONEY, tommy. You got any EXXXTRA
MONEY for the GOOGLEOID to BUY a news server accHOWENT, tommy?
> Otherwise you will be hunted down and
> forceably returned to your planet.
O.K. tommy, if you sez so.
> You have been warned.
Hey tommy? Do you think she can forgoe the ANAL PROBE?
> Over.
Looks like they're comin to get you NHOWE, tommy.
> Out.
Watch HOWET behind you, tommy, you're fixin to get PROBED.
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
HOWEDY tommy soronsen you anonymHOWES lying dog abusing punk
thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental
case aka joey finnochiario aka jack morrison,
> Note: The author of this message requested that it
> not be archived. This message will be removed from
> Groups in 6 days (Feb 9, 11:27 am).
HOWE COME you set your valuable informative posts to
EXXXPIRE in a few days instead of bein indellibly
archived FOREVER, tommy?
HOWE COME you WON'T ADMIT to who you REALLY ARE despite
being CAUGHT posing from tommy soronsen's kennel accHOWENT?
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2006 08:19:17 -0800, egoebe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Puppy Wiz,
He means 'HOWEDY The Amazing Puppy Wizard' <{); ~ ) >
> > If you want to repeat the same lies over and over
CITES PLEASE?
> > until they are true,
CITE WON LIE?
> >try the news. Fox could use the help.
INDEEDY. The Amazing Puppy Wizard will be enterTRAINING you
and your mentally ill lying dog abusing punk thug coward pals
from Fox news and all the other media when HE DROPS the doGdameneD
hammer on the entire industry, ecobellebecker <{); ~ ) >
> FREE TIP: Please stop replying to the crazy bastard, or you're going
> to end up in the same number of killfiles that he's already in.
BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!
From: michael <c...@dogtv.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:39:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Need New Ideas. Urgently!
> Hello Wendy numero dos,
> Please killfile Jerry Howe,
He has information which might help you, but it can be a lot
moore fun to commiserate with other people who have the
same problems, or who couldn't solve the same problems,
than to actually solve your problems, and by listening
to Jerry, it might ruin your fun. After that, killfile me.
I'm a childish, self aggrandizing rabble rouser with
delusions of grandeur.
> Please?
You don't have to be so polite tommy. You can be the same
vulgar ignorant lying dog abusing punk thug coward you was
when you got Robert Crim and laura arlov's DEAD DOGS DEAD
on them with your abusive avdice:
From: dog...@i1.net (Dogman)
Date: 1999/06/11
Subject: Re: Update on Howe to walk without pulling
While sitting on the crapper and smoking a fine Arturo Fuentes cigar
on Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:57:50 GMT, I overheard fritzg...@earthlink.net
(Robert Crim) mumbling:
>On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:33:03 GMT, dog...@i1.net (Dogman) wrote:
>> [...]
>>> PS: At least you use your own name, and I don't have
>>> to wash my hands when I read your posts.
>> Hey, asshole, you didn't answer yet how exactly you came to know so
>> much about the "lysol" smell in all those "XXX bookstores" that you
>> apparently frequent, did you?
>> Got a big snoot full, did ya?
>> I bet you have to wash your hands a LOT,
>> don't you, you freakin' hypocrite...
>> Geeeeeeez.
> One can only imagine why YOU would think I was referring to you.
Because I'm a pretty smart guy, Hippie Guy, and you've been
taking pretty much the same pots shot at me for months now.
And for as long as you keep doing it, asshole, expect to get a reply.
A reply you're not likely to enjoy, in fact.
> Do you think that every "seamy" reference is to you? Why?
Because you're a self-rightous HYPOCRITICAL ASSHOLE, that's why.
> I wash my hands when *I* think they are dirty....how about you? Are
> they dirty now? Why?
My hands are dirty all the time, Hippie Guy, but mostly from doing a
lot of hard work, not from hanging around in "XXX bookstores" getting
high on the smell of "lysol," like you.
> And to think I referred to your posts as seamy. What *was* I thinking???
I really haven't noticed you doing much "thinking," lately, Hippie
Guy. Mostly just WHINING.
>Have you invited anyone to eat your shit recently?
No, not lately.
Why?
Do you want some?
I hear that Federal Express will deliver just about anything.
> Is that something you enjoy?........perv?
Yes, I'd ENJOY watching *you* eat *my* shit.
Especially right after I'd eaten a dozen tacos or so.
PS:
I noticed that you AGAIN avoided answering just how you came to know
so much about the "lysol" smell of "XXX bookstores."
So how did ya?
Huh?
:>)
--
Dogman aka "Big Daddy"
dog...@i1.net
Dogman's Den
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
"I follow my own advice, even if it sounds stupid."
Jerry "Little Man" Howe
"There is no difference between a leash correction and hitting..."
Jerry "The Shyster" Howe
"Therefore, I put the manual together in such a way as to make it
difficult to use..."
Jerry "Don't Ask Me" Howe
"No, I don't like dogs. I don't like people, either. Dogs are only
animals,
put there for us to use in any fashion we see fit."
Jerry "Dr. Mengele" Howe
"Any time the dog is told no for any reason, the dog must be praised
immediately, or he will not understand what you are trying to tell him.
Jerry "Say What?" Howe
"I've never given references to anybody."
Jerry "Nowhere No way No" Howe
"Yes, my Doggy Do Right will calm and quiet and (sic)
entire neighborhood of barking dogs."
Jerry "Halloween III" Howe
"Ah geez Broke(nseat)... I want to say it to... I think a
10 month old nippy, or "mouthy" dog, pup, canine
should be put down. No mouthy is acceptable by any
breed."
Tcwood1122
You KNOW HOWE "Dogs ABHOR leadership vacuums!"
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's HOWE COME laura KILLED her own
DEAD DOG Chewie for TURNING ON HER:
From: Laura Arlov (l...@wordfixers.no)
Subject: Re: Chewie bit my husband !
Date: 1999/01/20
Well, we're doing as you say Dogman,
and I'll keep you all posted.
------------------------------
> Laura in Oslo
You're quite the dog enthusiast, eh laura?
> The listener,
You didn't WANT to listen to The Puppy Wizard when
HE told you you couldn't PUNISH and INTIMIDATE
your dog or you'd make IT aggressive.
> the observer.
NHOWE you got a DEAD DOG HOWETA it.
> We do work were you sometimes have to observe people
Like laura, MURDERING her dog...
> and take notes.
INDEEDY!
> B. has amazing powers of observation and concentration.
RIGHT...
> Laura and Angel in Oslo
"Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And
Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD.
Date: 2003-10-29 23:49:52 PST
HOWEDY People,
Here's HOWE COME laura arlov KILLED her "Feisty,
Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie
de Vivre," And DEAD DOG Chewie:
From: Dogman (dog...@i1.net)
Subject: Re: Dogman advocates dogs biting people
Date: 1999/04/25
While I was listening to the Miles Davis CD, "Kind Of
Blue," and drinking a little Booker's, on 24 Apr 1999
22:47:09 GMT, brokens...@aol.com (Brokenseat) wrote
> Was that a SERIOUS ENOUGH bite for you dogman,
> or was it insignificant? Why would you suggest getting
> a book or obediance, is there no bite SERIOUS enough
> for you?
Yes, there are, but this one was *caused* by the actions
of a very, very STUPID human being, someone much like
yourself.
And it only hapopened ONCE.
And there are many, many dogs out there today
living perfectly normal and honorable lives who,
upon having done to them what was done to
this dog ("Chewie"), would also bite.
I mean, how stupid can one person get?
Don't answer that yet, Broke, you're setting a new
record almost everyday.
Here's what the owner's husband did (and precisely
what caused the bite), just in case you forgot:
> (My husband was holding Chewie's head and looking
> him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled
> louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)
I wonder just how many dogs out there wouldn't at
least be tempted to bite some stupid idiot for doing
that to him?
I include below the entire post for viewers reading
pleasure, and so they can take everything I said in
its proper *context.*
PS: I'd be willing to wager a large amount of money
that this particular dog will never bite this guy again,
provided:
1.) The family gives this dog some OBEDIENCE training.
2.) The guy refrains from doing really STUPID things to the dog.
3.) The guy PARTICIPATES in the training.
4.) They have a professional ASSESS the dog.
Putting this dog down simply for doing the
above is UNCONSCIONABLE.
This dog needs to be assessed, in person, by a knowledgeable
trainer/behaviorist before any action is even considered.
>>>>Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my
>>>>husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood,
>>>>docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting
>>>>match)
>
>>>Dogman's words of wisdom:
>>> You need to get a book on recognizing animal
>>> behavior ***(I have some listed on my web site)***,
>>> and you need to get your husband (and children, if
>>> they're old enough) involved in the OBEDIENCE
>>> training of this dog.
>>> WRONG. You need to cull. Do not give that dog a
>>> second chance to bite someone and draw blood
>>> another time, like your childs face...
>>>Broke Egoman and his dangerous advice should be ignored.
Doofuses are always welcome to ignore my advice,
after all, that's why they remain doofuses, eh?
********************
Beginning of the actual post, before Broke selectively snipped:
Upon my return to the Cuckoo's Nest,
Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:22:09 ?,
"Laura Arlov" <l...@wordfixers.no> says:
[...]
> We have an 18 month old male Airedale Terrier,
> Chewbacca (Chewie). He's entire -- and I might as well
> tell you right now it's not legal to neuter male dogs in
> Norway for anything other than medical reasons, so he'll
> probably be staying that way.
That's too bad, because neutering might help (of course,
it might not help, either).
FYI, 95% of stallions (horses) in America are neutered.
That's right, only 5% of horses are responsible for breeding.
Why?
Have you ever been on a ranch or farm where there
were a lot of stallions living together?
If you had, you'd understand why 95% of them get
their *tools* taken away at an early age!
The same thing goes for dogs to a great extent.
> Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my
> husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood,
> docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting match)
> I have no trouble seeing how this incident is a result
> of Chewie's age and hormones, and mistakes that we
> have made.
>
> He's our first dog. before we got him I read that Airedale
> males could be a pretty tough proposition, so I've been
> working actively with Chewie and settring limits for him
> all his life, and he respects me.
But he doesn't respect your hubbie, does he?
Otherwise this would never have happened.
You're right, Airedales are TOUGH dogs, just like
virtually any *terrier.*
>My son and husband mostly pet him and play with him.
That's part of your problem I think. Your husband has
fallen in the pecking order to an EQUAL. That is, your
dog sees your husband as an equal, perhaps even an
inferior, and that's what the growling, etc., were all about.
> Now that Chewie is trying to improve his position
> in our family flock by defying my husband, my husband
> is all of the sudden trying to put his foot down and discipline
> Chewie...
This putting-down-of-the-foot cannot take place quickly.
It will have to develop over time.
But the best way to accelerate it is to have your husband
start to take over the OBEDIENCE training of your dog,
and he needs a lot more of it, Laura.
No dog of mine would ever even think about growling
at me, much less ever bite me. Or any member of my
family, the dog's pack.
Because I've made them all realize, early on,
that all humans are higher in status to them.
And their OBEDIENCE training is *ongoing,*
therefore it's constantly reinforced.
Dogs ABHOR leadership vacuums!
> (My husband was holding Chewie's head and looking
> him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled
> louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)
You need to get a book on recognizing animal behavior
(I have some listed on my web site), and you need to get
your husband (and children, if they're old enough) involved
in the OBEDIENCE training of this dog.
Otherwise you're likely to have *much* more serious
problems down the road.
> So, we did exactly what the experts on this ng usually
> advise: we called a really good dog training organization
> (where Chewie and I did basic training) and they will be
> sending one or maybe two instructors to observe as all
> at home, help us to understand our dog, and help us with
> home routines and training to straighten this out.
This will really help, I'm sure. They'll want to observe
and understand your pack's "dynamics."
Then they can show you some things that will allow
your husband to assume a more dominant role in the
dog's pack.
> While we're waiting for our first appointment, we're
> supposed to write down our own impressions of Chewie's
> behavior both around the bite and otherwise. And it is clear
> that he feels he came out of the encounter "a bigger man."
You bet. That's why an ounce of PREVENTION is
always worth a pound of CURE.
Especially when it comes to reinforcement of canine behavior.
> Yesterday and today he has gone nuts in the backseat
> of the car when somebody walked by with a male dog...
> and when he pees, he lifts his leg so high he fell over
> twice today.
Yup. This dog needs some intensive OBEDIENCE
training, in my opinion.
But it usually takes an on-site OBSERVATION to
make an accurate assessment of your situation.
> I feel pretty badly about this...sad, I guess.
> He's a great little dog.
He's not so "little," eh?
> Feisty, humorous, brave, curious and playful. Full of
> "joie de vivre" Not outstandlingly intelligent, but shrewd.
> Charming, when he wants to be. I feel like he's really
> blotted his copy books seriously, and I sure see how a
> lot of the responsibility for this is ours.
You're got the right attitude, Laura. Almost all canine behavior
"problems" are created (and reinforced) by us humans.
> Stay tuned, and see how it goes as we try to
> straighten out this dog -- and, maybe more
> importantly, his owners!
I will, and I hope you will, indeed, let us
know how this works out!
Good luck!
-Dogman
dog...@i1.net
Dogman's Den
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
"One four minute session of obedience work,
done properly, will prevent behavior problems
for 48-72 hours. It's in the manual."
Jerry "Moonbeam" Howe
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
> *gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
Permit The Amazing Puppy Wizard to give you a hand
with that tricky little pin, eh tommy? THERE. GOT IT.
Here, hold this...
ADIOS, tommy <{); ~ ) >
> "Ritualistic calls by utopians, moralists, and environmental
> absolutists for energy conservation are utterly inadequate
> and doomed to failure.
>
> To see this, simply run the numbers. Every year, about 17
> million cars are sold in the U.S.-- roughly 10 percent of
> the worldwide total. Even if Americans were to buy only
> hybrid cars offering a 30 percent fuel saving over existing
> models, and none of them drove more, and there was no expansion
> in the U.S. vehicle fleet, this effort would result in only a
> 3 percent annual reduction in global gasoline use."
>
> "To liberate ourselves from the threat of foreign economic
> domination, undercut the financiers of terror, and give
> ourselves the free hand necessary to deal with Middle
> Eastern extremists, we must devalue their resources and
> increase the value of our own. We can do this by taking
> the world off the petroleum standard and putting
> it on an alcohol standard."
HOWE COME they don't just use lysol and anchovies, tommy?
Here's ANOTHER FUN STORY.
Do we WANT another repetition of THIS?:
"Dogman" <please.see....@sig.file> wrote in message
news:c2d2ms0a4242l52r7...@4ax.com...
> [I thought I'd interrupt my vacation from r.p.d.b. for one post. I
> think this is an important point, especially for dog trainers. This
> article was recently published in my local newspaper, the St. Louis
> Post-Dispatch.
> It's just common sense, really, but it's interesting sometimes to
> understand the science behind it -- i.e., that repetition enhances
> learning. Dogman]
Re: May I make a pitch?....was Tomorrow
Author: Dogman <please.see....@sig.file>
Date: 1999/10/09
Forum: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
nos...@all.com (Maxine) wrote:
>> > Its like calling a woman a bitch. Only tan
>> > insecure bitch would get upset unless it was
>> > really meant as an insult.
>> Oh yeah, CUNT?
>> And, yes, I meant that as an insult.
> Can anyone explain why this person acts like this?
> What is wrong with him to act this way?
What way?
Remember...cunt...dago...cunt...dago...cunt...dago.
Hey, it's no big deal!
Ain't that right, CUNT?
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
Re: May I make a pitch?....was Tomorrow
Author: Dogman <please.see....@sig.file>
Date: 1999/10/09
Forum: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
nos...@all.com (Maxine) wrote:
[...]
> Oh, I think I see now. You are trying to say
> that a cunt is the same as a dago. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right...words are just words, right, CUNT?
I thought you were a troll from the minute you got
here, and I even think I know who you are, too.
Yes, probably Robert Crim.
The chickenshit lawyer's husband.
> In my experience the average cunt is much sweeter smelling
Yeah, that's why they make over 75 feminine deodorant sprays, eh?
Because pussies smell so nice.
Yeah, right...light three-week-old anchovies rotting
on the kitchen counter.
>and much better groomed than your usual garlic
>reeking drunken dago, guinea, wop, or greaseball.
No self-respecting Italian would ever put his dick
in a pussy that smelled as bad as yours, Max.
I can smell it way back here in St. Louis, in fact,
and the winds are even out of the West!
Besides, he'd probably break it, if he did.
> Mine sure is.
Your pussy is to stench what shit is to sewers.
>Face it greaseball, I'm your worst nightmare.
Nightmare?
You're a CUNT. Period.
>I'm a bitch with a brain.
You're a CUNT with a CRACK in your head, that's all,
and any brain has long ago seeped out.
> I don't need you or anything like you.
That brings me great joy, Max.
>Eat your heart out greaseball.
Over you?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Before I'd ever fuck you, Maxine, I'd stick my
dick out a window and SLAM it!
>Kiss, kiss.
Suck, suck -- CUNT.
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
"It's like religion. Heresy [in science] is thought of as a bad
thing,
whereas it should be just the opposite." Dr. Thomas Gold
Re: May I make a pitch?....was Tomorrow
Author: Dogman <please.see....@sig.file>
Date: 1999/10/09
Forum: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
nos...@all.com (Maxine) wrote:
[...]
> Last week I was Brian Gross. This week I am Robert Crim.
> Next week I think I will be Martina Navritalova.
If I ever find out that you really are Crim, you're
going to wish you were Navritilova.
In fact, you're going to wish you were *anyone* but Robert Crim.
> She is more my type anyway.
No thanks, but I don't consider her a cunt.
That's your type -- the quintessential cunt.
Think Leona Helmsley, only broke.
>Be sure to look under your bed before you say your prayers tonight
>greaseball.
Okay, but don't forget to flush your cunt out with ammonia, eh?
Otherwise you're likely to asphyxiate your entire neighborhood.
>The boogeyman might be waiting for you.
You'll wish I were the bogeyman, Crim, if I'm ever able to track this
post to you.
>Kiss, kiss.
Suck, suck, CRIM.
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
"It's like religion. Heresy [in science] is thought of as a bad
thing, whereas it should be just the opposite." Dr. Thomas Gold
Robin Nuttall
I can see a dog like Zipper being a real problem. He's small, brown,
lightning fast, and sort of skittery. With Cala, we had to have a very
intense few days of "NO, HE IS NOT PREY, YOU MAY NOT KILL HIM" when I
first got the puppy. We then settled into 2 months of "icky, I hate him,
make him go away," which has resolved into them being great buds. Zipper
plays hard with Cala, mostly snuggles with Viva.
sighthounds & siberians
Robin Nuttall wrote:
> I can see a dog like Zipper being a real problem. He's small, brown,
> lightning fast, and sort of skittery. With Cala, we had to have a very
> intense few days of "NO, HE IS NOT PREY, YOU MAY NOT KILL HIM" when I
> first got the puppy. We then settled into 2 months of "icky, I hate him,
> make him go away," which has resolved into them being great buds. Zipper
> plays hard with Cala, mostly snuggles with Viva.
The dogs that are a problem with greyhounds are usually the fuzzy
types, particularly light-colored fuzzy types. Tiny dogs that look
like dogs generally aren't viewed as prey as much as tiny dogs that
look like lures are.
Mustang Sally
Debbie the Dogged
di...@nospam.diddy.net says...
> in thread news:44B5136C...@oakhillkennel.com: Amy Dahl
> <a...@oakhillkennel.com> whittled the following words:
> > She was so miserable the other day it was horrible to see, and I
> > didn't think she would make it. She had a day and a half of
> > full-time post-surgical observation (I ferried her back and forth
> > between the day and night clinics).
> >
> > Seeing her this morning, obviously back to feeling good, was one
> > of the most restorative moments of my entire life.
Yahoo!
> Well YAY for both of us!!!!!! What a horrid experience. I'm glad your bitch
> is home and stable. MY little guy has now reached the window where he is no
> longer critical, but is the recovery stage.
>
> We both deserve some good sleep
That's wonderful news!!!!
--
Debbie the Dogged das at spamcop dot net
"Poodles are space aliens who think they've disguised
themselves as dogs." - Paghat the Ratgirl
FurPaw
> Thanks for asking. It's hard to keep a good man down. He's axiously
> awaiting freedom. He's looking for jobs to do, but that's rather difficult
> on the end of a leash
I am really glad to hear this! I really was wondering - I'd sent
you email, which bounced. I hadn't been following this thread,
and so I stumbled onto your post this evening. Wishing for his
continued improvement -
FurPaw
--
Don't think of it as getting hot flashes.
Think of it as your inner child playing with matches.
To reply, unleash the dog
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
I've been wanting to reply to this, but am so busy with patient care
and bottle feeding puppies and the need to try to catch up on other
work and the piled up phone calls, it's difficult. Will try to
summarize.
Big plans for breeding, including some really good homes lined up
before we did the breeding. Dam has produced some super dogs,
mostly in pet/hunting homes; this was to be her last breeding. Four
competitive homes lined up--chance to finally prove some of her get
publically and get them out there for the next generation.
Eight puppies born on day 57, catching us by surprise. Long labor.
One puppy somewhat deformed; don't know if birth defect or a
preemie.
Gradual fading and death of six puppies, despite warmth and close
supervision to make sure all nursed frequently, etc.
Just short of the 2-week point, I expressed some milk and saw it
was discolored. Started treating for mastitis. We chose to try to
keep the puppies nursing on their dam. This meant I kept her
separate from the puppies. Every 2 1/2 hours I hot packed
all her mammaries, then expressed milk until those with discolored
milk were about empty, supervised as she nursed the puppies, made
sure she cleaned and stimulated them, then separated her again.
This was round the clock, of course.
She was also on Cephalexin. Things improved after three days.
Two teats were still affected but not producing much milk. I let
her back in with the puppies. Next evening when I went to check
on her, she was lying in a corner looking miserable, with one
mammary distended and obviously painful.
I hot-packed it and expressed it to relieve some pressure. The
stuff that came out was varying sorts of nasty.
I'll just comment that I doubt most bitches would put up with the
expressing of milk the way mine did. She's got an unusual
combination of great temperament and lots of training.
Then I took her to the emergency clinic. Because she obviously
felt miserable, she didn't keep herself super clean as she always
does. All of us noticed her unusual amount of vaginal discharge
for this stage postpartum. The color was good, but there was
more than normal. Her temperature was only slightly elevated,
but her white count was really low.They suspected pyometra.
Anybody thinking of breeding needs to research pyometra
(and mastitis) before they start.
They got her on IV fluids, heavy-duty antibiotics (Baytril/ampicillin),
and anti-inflammatories, and observed her. They gave (sold) me some
milk replacer and a bottle and I went home to feed the two
remaining puppies, who had been, apparently, many hours without
eating, and care for the other dogs. I did not really expect that I'd
be picking her up (didn't think she'd survive, to spell it out).
I got to bed at 5. It wasn't as though I really had any sense of what
time it was after the all-nighters and near-all-nighters I'd been
putting in. At 5:30 the phone rang. My bitch's gums had started
to turn red, confirming a major infection somewhere. They were
going to go ahead and do an emergency spay. This is, of course,
much more serious surgery than a routine spay. The uterus is
big and extended postpartum, plus there is infection and the whole
system is challenged. They also did a partial mastectomy, removing
two glands. She had lots and lots of milk, making it difficult.
They close at 8 a.m. so I had to pick my bitch up and transfer her
to my own vet for hospitalization. She was so sedated I couldn't
tell how she was. I went to see her at 3:30 and she still looked as
miserable as she had the previous evening. At 5:30 I took her back
to the all-night clinic. She still didn't look very good, and I was
worried because the initial prediction was that I could take her
home that morning--so this was her second round of hospitalization
that wasn't predicted.
She was on her feet, barely, and when the tech took hold of her
slip lead, she resisted. This is not usual for her; I think it was
a measure of how insecure she felt. They let me walk her back
to her little enclosure.
I went home and fed the puppies and dogs, then called at
10 p.m. They said she was better and was hanging out with
them in the office. She ate several times overnight and was
onto oral meds by morning. They seemed to love her (she is
special).
Bottle feeding puppies, for those who haven't tried it, is no
piece of cake. At first they avoid getting the nipple in their
mouths, then they can't make it work, and you have to cut
and re-cut the opening hoping to get it right so they can get
some and not aspirate it into their lungs getting pneumonia.
Then you have to stimulate the puppies to pee and poop (and
in the case of these puppies, the stools are loose and stinky).
Even when they start getting it, they make wet-sounding
snuffly noises so you have to always worry they are aspirating.
Picked her up yesterday morning, and as I wrote before, she
looked and acted as though she felt OK, although subdued, and
it was wonderful. Today she is on leash walks only--feels good
enough that she can't be trusted not to run, jump, and go in the
ponds.
If it wasn't for the new all-night emergency clinic with surgical
capability that opened here a few months ago, she wouldn't
have made it. They were *great*.
My bitch won't be finishing her championship, as spayed bitches
are not eligible. The guy who has the puppy from her previous
litter that is running the Open All-Age stake in field trials and
won Best of Winners at the National Specialty won't be getting
another of her puppies. (We're planning to keep both of them.)
Breaks of the game. She looks like she is going to be OK and
I hope to have several good years with her. That's what counts.
Amy Dahl
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> Wow. It didn't sound like it was that serious. That's really good
> news. I hope the pups continue to do well, too.
>
> Continued good luck!
>
Thanks, probably it didn't sound that serious because I thought
things were under control. This whole whelping has been a
case of plans that gang aft aglee, as the Poet said.
Amy Dahl
Judith Althouse
was there to give you a hand and snuggle some of those puppies...Best of
luck to you and your Mama dog....
Be Free,
Judy
sighthounds & siberians
> Bloody poop from Cushings? Odd. Many healing thoughts to Raisin and Blue
Blue's getting along just fine, Raisin has probably Addison's, and my
DH is in the hospital with a perforation somewhere in his colon. It's
contained, and he's improved since he was admitted, so they're planning
to observe and give IV antibiotics and let things heal for 4-6 weeks
and then to surgery to avoid a possible colostomy; but this approach
depends on how he tolerates a liquid diet, etc., and he lost his liquid
dinner shortly before I left the hospital today. Prayers, good
thoughs, white light, etc. would be appreciated.
Mustang Sally
Paula
<grey...@ncweb.com> wrote:
Hell, I'm starting a petition.
We, the undersigned, demand that Sally's household be given a
reasonable break from scary health problems as she has had to deal
with problem after problem for what seems like forever and is richly
deserving of some peace and prosperity.
1. Paula
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Paula
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
Got any words for those who want their kids to experience the miracle
of birth or think a litter of cute puppies will be just the right
addition to their bank account, maybe? Sorry it has been so rough on
you! Glad your dogs have got a great owner who is willing to do
whatever it takes to take care of them.
Judith Althouse
family (everyone)..sounds like you have been thru it...
Be Free,
Judy
Judith Althouse
"got any words for peope who want their children to experience the
miracle of birth.etc etc etc"
Not an exact or complet quote by Paula just my rough/partial
interpretation of it and I for one think it is one of the most brilliant
questions asked on this site/group. I would love the luxury of a
Doberman. I love the breed, used to have them, but I just can't go out
and buy one when I know there are thousands of dogs dying daily because
people don't spay or neuter their pet or in the case of professional dog
people breeding and breeding again in hope of finding that perfect dog.
By the way this has nothing to do with Paula or any of the other people
who have posted on this thread it is just a general statement made by me
about how I feel about the growing unwanted pet population.
Be Free,
Judy
Amy Dahl
Paula wrote:
>
>
> Hell, I'm starting a petition.
>
> We, the undersigned, demand that Sally's household be given a
> reasonable break from scary health problems as she has had to deal
> with problem after problem for what seems like forever and is richly
> deserving of some peace and prosperity.
>
> 1. Paula
2. Amy
Sally,
Am thinking of you and sending best wishes for your family and
particularly DH to make a full and speedy recovery.
It has been just over two years since we realized John was really
sick. My heartfelt hope that the course of your DH's hospital
stay and treatment will go as well as his did.
Amy Dahl
Amy Dahl
Paula wrote:
>
> Got any words for those who want their kids to experience the miracle
> of birth or think a litter of cute puppies will be just the right
> addition to their bank account, maybe?
Well, I decided a few years ago that "you can't tell anybody anything."
I did write about some details in the post I titled "nightmare whelping,"
but appended to this thread. I'm kinda sleep-deprived, but if you take
a look, tell me if you think it has the needed punch.
> Sorry it has been so rough on
> you! Glad your dogs have got a great owner who is willing to do
> whatever it takes to take care of them.
Thank you. I'm really all right. I have enough responsibility/support
in my life that when only one part really tanks, I can keep on OK.
And Monday is looking good, and so far there is still a puppy each
for John and me.
On the dog care, I'd better admit I'm not diddy. Fortunately my
bitch's misadventure, while expensive, was not even close to the
second-mortgage category. But thanks for the compliment; stuff
like that motivates me to review my dog care, find areas to improve,
and keep the standard up.
John is planning to name his puppy Lucky. For a few days I've
been thinking, "what a misnomer!" But all in all I do feel lucky.
I think a lot of bitches don't survive pyo...and it's a real privilege
to own this special one in the first place.
Amy Dahl
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> Having inflexible adoption rules probably kills more dogs than
> distemper, parvo, and speeding Fed-Ex trucks combined.
>
Heh. Yes. Every now and then I need to be reminded that I
started with a purebred Lab after I didn't qualify for a mutt from
the shelter. The Lab led to my getting involved in retriever
training, meeting my husband, and quitting my real job to
become a retriever pro.
I did have a couple of wonderful mutts along the way, but they
were strays I took in.
Amy Dahl
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> Do you think it's generally a good idea to pass on the genes of a
> bitch who is "never able to carry more than two pups"? And couldn't
> her "nutritional issues" be espressed in other potentially negative
> ways, too?
My take on this: I don't like absolute culling standards. If an animal
excels in several areas, I'm willing to take a risk on carrying on a
significant flaw (if it isn't temperament).
Furthermore, when there is doubt as to whether a flaw is hereditary
and not environmental, it would be wasteful to throw away the generations
of work leading to one's current "best brood bitch." If the problem
continues in the next generation, one can cashier the line at that time,
with better information--again if the problem outweighs the merit
accumulated (we hope) in the line.
This is within the context of striving not to be kennel blind, and to
keep a harsh critical eye on one's prospective breeding stock, of
course. I also tell prospective buyers what I see as the strengths
and weaknesses of my dogs, and why I chose to breed them.
But nobody should look to me for "genetically clean" stock. I place
a lot more emphasis on issues of merit that don't have simple
tests like OFA and PRA, and little on nitpicky defects that people
can live with like entropion.
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>> Do you think it's generally a good idea to pass on the genes of a
>> bitch who is "never able to carry more than two pups"? And couldn't
>> her "nutritional issues" be espressed in other potentially negative
>> ways, too?
>
>My take on this: I don't like absolute culling standards. If an animal
>excels in several areas, I'm willing to take a risk on carrying on a
>significant flaw (if it isn't temperament).
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Health is always
paramount with me.
Especially in a breed with a gene pool as large as the Labrador's.
Other breeds (maybe the Elkhound is one), with a much smaller gene
pool, may need to take more chances.
Some things are just non-negotiable with me.
>Furthermore, when there is doubt as to whether a flaw is hereditary
>and not environmental, it would be wasteful to throw away the generations
>of work leading to one's current "best brood bitch." If the problem
>continues in the next generation, one can cashier the line at that time,
>with better information--again if the problem outweighs the merit
>accumulated (we hope) in the line.
The "problem" we're talking about was repeated three times, using
three different dogs.
Once would have been enough for me, especially with the Lab.
Maybe twice, with a breed with a smaller gene pool.
But never a third attempt.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
PS: I'm very happy to hear that things seem to be working out for your
bitch and her pups!
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Scientists Question Nature's Fundamental Laws...oh noooooo!
"If this principle is broken, then two objects dropped in a gravitational field
should fall at slightly different rates. Moreover, Einstein's gravitational theory
'general relativity' would no longer be completely correct, Martins says."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060711_science_tuesday.html
Florida. Almost no restrictions on firearms. Crime rate lowest since '71.
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2006/07/florida_crime_r.php
Washington, D.C. Total ban on firearms. City declares crime emergency!
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2006-07-12-dc-crime_x.htm
QED.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>>
>> Having inflexible adoption rules probably kills more dogs than
>> distemper, parvo, and speeding Fed-Ex trucks combined.
>Heh. Yes. Every now and then I need to be reminded that I
>started with a purebred Lab after I didn't qualify for a mutt from
>the shelter. The Lab led to my getting involved in retriever
>training, meeting my husband, and quitting my real job to
>become a retriever pro.
Would I be too nosy for wanting to know what the disqualifier was? :)
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Prayers, good thoughts, white light, etc. would be appreciated.
Put me down for the prayers and the good thoughts, of course.
But I'm going to hold off on the "white lights" part, because I think
they probably mean something different to me. :D
I don't wanna see no steeenkin' "white lights" anytime soon...
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Health is always
> paramount with me.
>
> Especially in a breed with a gene pool as large as the Labrador's.
If I ever get a Labrador bitch I think is worth breeding, I would
probably cashier her for whelping problems. I wouldn't want
that in my foundation bitch, when I had invested little, the pool
of alternative individuals is large, and the worth of her line
had yet to be proven.
But I'm finding it darned hard to get a Labrador bitch that measures
up. I've raised quite a few in the last dozen years.
>
> The "problem" we're talking about was repeated three times, using
> three different dogs.
That establishes that the bitch had a problem, but not that it would
be transmitted to her offspring. Some will automatically assume
stuff to be genetic, but it could have been some kind of
environmental problem with her development.
> PS: I'm very happy to hear that things seem to be working out for your
> bitch and her pups!
>
fingers crossed....
Amy DAhl
Amy Dahl
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:41:06 GMT, Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Having inflexible adoption rules probably kills more dogs than
> >> distemper, parvo, and speeding Fed-Ex trucks combined.
>
> >Heh. Yes. Every now and then I need to be reminded that I
> >started with a purebred Lab after I didn't qualify for a mutt from
> >the shelter. The Lab led to my getting involved in retriever
> >training, meeting my husband, and quitting my real job to
> >become a retriever pro.
>
> Would I be too nosy for wanting to know what the disqualifier was? :)
>
I think it was lack of a proper fence around the back yard. There was
a fence, but as a tenant it wasn't up to me to fix it.
I don't regret getting my Lab!
Amy Dahl
Melinda Shore
Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote:
>I think it was lack of a proper fence around the back yard. There was
>a fence, but as a tenant it wasn't up to me to fix it.
I can't adopt from the local SPCA because I've got intact
dogs in the house.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>
>But I'm finding it darned hard to get a Labrador bitch that measures
>up. I've raised quite a few in the last dozen years.
That's why it's all about the bitches. :)
Always has been, always will be.
A good brood bitch is worth her weight in gold.
>> The "problem" we're talking about was repeated three times, using
>> three different dogs.
>
>That establishes that the bitch had a problem, but not that it would
>be transmitted to her offspring. Some will automatically assume
>stuff to be genetic, but it could have been some kind of
>environmental problem with her development.
Here's what I would have assumed: It just ain't worth taking a
chance.
Again, I'm using the Labrador retriever breed as my point of
reference. Maybe with the Elkhound breed (and its much smaller gene
pool) it might have been worth taking a chance.
>> PS: I'm very happy to hear that things seem to be working out for your
>> bitch and her pups!
>>
>
>fingers crossed....
And toes...
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>> >> Having inflexible adoption rules probably kills more dogs than
>> >> distemper, parvo, and speeding Fed-Ex trucks combined.
>>
>> >Heh. Yes. Every now and then I need to be reminded that I
>> >started with a purebred Lab after I didn't qualify for a mutt from
>> >the shelter. The Lab led to my getting involved in retriever
>> >training, meeting my husband, and quitting my real job to
>> >become a retriever pro.
>>
>> Would I be too nosy for wanting to know what the disqualifier was? :)
>I think it was lack of a proper fence around the back yard. There was
>a fence, but as a tenant it wasn't up to me to fix it.
<sigh>
>I don't regret getting my Lab!
I bet you don't. :D
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>> But never a third attempt.
>>
>The third attempt was natural cover.
[...]
It wouldn't have made a difference to me, Diddy.
Again, the Labrador retriever breed (very large gene pool) is my point
of reference.
I don't know enough about the Elk's gene pool to know whether or not
it was a good gamble.
And again, I'm not a big fan of AI. Even with horses.
Robin Nuttall
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:51:29 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>
> wrote:
>
> []
>
>>>But never a third attempt.
>>>
>>
>>The third attempt was natural cover.
>
> [...]
>
> It wouldn't have made a difference to me, Diddy.
>
> Again, the Labrador retriever breed (very large gene pool) is my point
> of reference.
>
> I don't know enough about the Elk's gene pool to know whether or not
> it was a good gamble.
>
> And again, I'm not a big fan of AI. Even with horses.
>
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that going with frozen semen 1-2
puppies is the norm. It's not in my breed. Heck, there was a dog frozen
in the infancy of the project (he lived in the early 1980s) and he's
been used on several litters in the past couple of years--I think
average litter size has been 8 or so. And another dog that was frozen
who I wish wasn't--his get are all over the place 15 years after he
died. I could only wish that the frozen semen was so unsuccessful in a
dog who dropped dead at 8...
I'm one of those proponents of the core issues surrounding the real
basics like food and sex drives. Dogs should want to eat. They shouldn't
be so fussy as to be anorexic all the time. Dogs should not only have a
normal sex drive but be able to breed naturally, without the human
having to do all kinds of tricks to get the male's libido up, and
without the bitch trying to take the face off the male. A bitch that
must be muzzled to breed is not a bitch I'd want puppies from.
Furthermore, a bitch should breed easily, be able to carry a normal
litter and be able to whelp naturally. And even more important, she
should be a good mother!
It's through "forgiving" screw ups in these basic survival instincts
that we've gotten ourselves in real trouble with dog breeding. This
stuff IS passed on. Viva's one and only litter ended up coming by
c-section and she only had 3 puppies from a dog who had normally
produced litters of 8-12. She was a super mother though and a very
normal and natural breeder. It would have been a tough call, but she
started having uterine problems (hmmmm, part of the reason why she had
only 3 and didn't deliver naturally?) and we spayed her. Cala is also
spayed.
Kathleen
> I'm one of those proponents of the core issues surrounding the real
> basics like food and sex drives. Dogs should want to eat. They shouldn't
> be so fussy as to be anorexic all the time. Dogs should not only have a
> normal sex drive but be able to breed naturally, without the human
> having to do all kinds of tricks to get the male's libido up, and
> without the bitch trying to take the face off the male. A bitch that
> must be muzzled to breed is not a bitch I'd want puppies from.
> Furthermore, a bitch should breed easily, be able to carry a normal
> litter and be able to whelp naturally. And even more important, she
> should be a good mother!
Yes. Thank you. You said it better than I could have. There's also
another issue that bears mentioning... You have to let your bitch be
the mom. As long as the puppies are vigorous give her a chance to
figure things out for herself. Keep an eye on the situation but don't
micro-manage.
Kathleen
Amy Dahl
Robin Nuttall wrote:
>
> Dogs should not only have a
> normal sex drive but be able to breed naturally, without the human
> having to do all kinds of tricks to get the male's libido up, and
> without the bitch trying to take the face off the male. A bitch that
> must be muzzled to breed is not a bitch I'd want puppies from.
IMO it bears mentioning that mammals in general, including dogs,
are exogamous. They have a preference for breeding with distantly-
or unrelated individuals. It's not merely Murphy's Law at work when
a bitch is bitchy with a suitor of the same breed, but readily gets bred
by something else the moment her owner's vigilance relaxes.
>
> Furthermore, a bitch should breed easily, be able to carry a normal
> litter and be able to whelp naturally. And even more important, she
> should be a good mother!
These traits are desirable, and any breeder who ignores them is going
to get punished for it.
On the other hand, you can only be so selective. IMO it's the breeder's
discretion if he feels a given brood bitch represents so much progress
in some desired traits that flaws in other traits will be tolerated for the
current generation and tackled later.
My understanding is that the great breeders, the ones who have
established lines that breed true consistently, work this way. They
conserve the strengths in their line, while trying to add to them.
>
> It's through "forgiving" screw ups in these basic survival instincts
> that we've gotten ourselves in real trouble with dog breeding. This
> stuff IS passed on.
Maybe, maybe not. My bitch had some trouble with inertia. I did
some research and found estimates that 60% of bitches in the breed
suffer from inertia. I could cull an exceptional animal, only to breed
lower-quality bitches to studs who carry the genetic predisposition
for inertia--throwing away a lot and possibly gaining nothing.
In fact, one of her daughters cranked out 13 puppies last month.
All are doing well, uniform and healthy, as of my last report from
the breeder.
Amy Dahl
Debbie the Dogged
> In article <44B7CB5C...@oakhillkennel.com>,
> Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote:
> >I think it was lack of a proper fence around the back yard. There was
> >a fence, but as a tenant it wasn't up to me to fix it.
>
> I can't adopt from the local SPCA because I've got intact
> dogs in the house.
One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
Later on I met someone else from the same rescue who told me, in very
polite terms, that that particular person was just weird, and they'd be
happy to talk to me about it, but by that time I'd adopted Dolly the
funny little chihuahua mix from another rescue.
--
Debbie the Dogged das at spamcop dot net
"Poodles are space aliens who think they've disguised
themselves as dogs." - Paghat the Ratgirl
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com
dog murderin active acute chronic long term incurable
mental case and professional dog trainin FRAUD,
Amy Dahl wrote:
> crosspost to r.p.d.breeds added
>
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:48:06 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
> > <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > PS: For those of you thinking about getting into breeding, say,
> > just for the heck of it, etc., think back to these posts about
> > Amy's and Diddy's ordeals.
amy and diddler's "ORDEALS" was CAUSED by their own GREED
in a unique combination of IDIOCY tempered with their own
special ignorameHOWES lack of knowledge and insight, crHOWEND
by their masterful lack of ability and heavily laced with
absent morals, ethics, principles and common human decency <{): ~ ( >
> I've been wanting to reply to this,
LikeWIZE! Seems we got "The Dog Whisperers"
all WHISPERIN together, comiseratin their
DISMAL FAILURES <{); ~ ) >
> but am so busy with patient care and bottle feeding puppies
Yeah. You should probably be supplementing all your litters.
> and the need to try to catch up on other work and the piled
> up phone calls, it's difficult. Will try to summarize.
Hey? lying frosty dahl? Do you remember DISCOVERING CANIBALISM
in Labradors a couple years ago when you was busy shoveling
snow so customers could come in instead of WATCHIN YOUR NEWBORN
PUPPYS so they wouldn't get CRUSHED by their momma who had just
finished a difficult labor?
> Big plans for breeding,
You mean, to improve the breed?
> including some really good homes lined up before we did the breeding.
Of curse, advance puppy sales.
> Dam has produced some super dogs,
That so? DO TELL???
> mostly in pet/hunting homes;
You mean as in NON COMPETETIVE / NON WORKIN, that kinda SUPER dogs?
IOW, you mean PET QUALITY puppys?
There's a curiHOWES LANGUAGE amongst EXXXPERT professional
TRAINERS and ETHICKAL BREEDERS, kinda like in the restaurant /
meat industry. Like for EXXXAMPLE, CHOICE, GRADE A, PRIME,
SELECT etc., connote different levels of QUALITY. The TERMINOLOGY
is INTENDED to DISGUISE the QUALITY available to the buyer while
keepin the BEAST for the BEAST CLIENTEL, the RESTRAUNTAUR <{): ~ ) >
> this was to be her last breeding.
HOWE many litters does a ETHICKAL breeder take from a bitch?
> Four competitive homes lined up--chance to finally
> prove some of her get publically
You mean on accHOWENT of you couldn't SELL any
of her other pups to COMPETITORS? Or do you mean
that none of them "turned HOWET" to be competitors?
> and get them out there for the next generation.
Yeah, so you can IMPROVE the breed.
> Eight puppies born on day 57, catching us by surprise.
> Long labor. One puppy somewhat deformed; don't know if
> birth defect or a preemie.
Hmmmh. THAT'S curiHOWES. Preemie? Wasn't they all born together?
> Gradual fading and death of six puppies,
S-HOWENDS like a case of "fading puppy syndrome" aka Herpes /
Staph / Strep / Bacterial infection <{): ~ ( >
Perhaps you shoulda borrowed a little Lysol from tommy?
> despite warmth and close supervision to make sure all
> nursed frequently, etc.
INDEED? That's curiHOWES. AIN'T IT. Your other litter
when you DISCOVERED CANIBALISM in Labradorable dogs
wasn't bein warmly or closely supervised.
WAS THEY, lying frosty dahl.
> Just short of the 2-week point, I expressed some milk and
> saw it was discolored. Started treating for mastitis.
That's curiHOWES. Mastitis is generally CONsidered to be
a SYMPTOM of ENVIRONMENTAL FILTH and debilitated auto-
immune system.
"Work done by Val Brown Ch.M.I.A.C.E. DBC. on Mertrisa Collies
showed that the main cause of the syndrome was bacterial infection
'or rather an imbalance of bacteria. In a normal healthy bitch the
vagina harbours a series of bacteria including staphylococci,
streptococci, (including Beta - haemolytic streptococci (BHS) ),
escherichia coli (E. Coli), proteus etc, the level of each bacteria
being controlled by the others to sustain a regulated balance.
The problem of fading puppies arises when one bacteria becomes more
prominent, causing an imbalance between the various bacteria however
slight it may be.'
The some of the infectious bacteria and viruses are shown in the
table below (with recommended dilution rate for Virkon S), and
these can be spread from animal to animal in the environment,
hence spreading the imbalance to healthy puppies. Virkon S is
recommended by Val Brown to disinfect housing areas to control
this infection.
The contagious nature of this syndrome is such that all stock
should be considered at risk. A thorough cleansing and disinfection
routine must be maintained, so contaminated dog runs and lawns
must be treated, as well as whelping boxes and bedding.
GENETIC FACTORS
There are a limited number of studies on the influence of heredity
on resistance or susceptibility to mastitis in either the cow, goat
or sheep. Genes are known to influence the shape and structure of
the teat (Hickman, 1964). Mastitis histories of two cow families in
different geographical locations revealed significant difference which
led to the conclusion that heredity played a part in the infection
rate.
Dam-daughter comparisons based on data derived from field surveys cite
the influence of heredity on mastitis (Randel and Sunberg, 1962).
MICROORGANISMS-PRIMARY CAUSE OF MASTITIS
The primary cause of mastitis in cattle, goats and sheep are well
recognized groups of microorganisms, Streptococcus sp., Staphylococcus
sp., Pasteurella sp. and coliforms, Escherichia coli, Enterobacter sp.,
and Klebsiella sp. Recent studies at the University of Missouri
collected
data on the incidence of subclinical mastitis in ewes and identified
Staphylococcus, sp., Streptococcus sp. and Micrococcus sp., found in
bacterial cultures (Andrews et al., 1985).
Nineteen microorganisms have been identified as causative agents
of mastitis in cattle. Yeast and fungus have also been found
frequently infecting the udder, but usually go unnoticed because
they produce a mild or subclinical mastitis.
The relationship between the amount of mammary tissue affected by
microorganisms and the form of mastitis is shown in figure 2.
CONTROL OF MASTITIS
One of the most important keys to controlling mastitis in ewes is
good management practices. The incidence of mastitis is greater in
closely confined flocks.
Bedding material in barns should be clean, especially before and
after lambing. Microorganisms thrive in dark, wet, warm bedding.
When the ewes lay down to rest, the bacteria in dirty bedding can
easily enter the teat when the udder is full of milk. Microorganisms
can enter the teat canal.
Dirty bedding and crowding will make this possible. Lambs from
infected ewes will often nurse other ewes, spreading the
microorganisms to others in the flock. Isolating ewes suspected
of chronic or acute mastitis will help reduce the incidence of
mastitis in a flock. Ewes should be fed in bunks rather than on
the ground.
> We chose to try to keep the puppies nursing on their dam.
THAT'S INSANE! Mastitis POISONS the milk, lying frosty dahl.
> This meant I kept her separate from the puppies. Every 2 1/2
> hours I hot packed all her mammaries, then expressed milk until
> those with discolored milk were about empty, supervised as she
> nursed the puppies, made sure she cleaned and stimulated them,
> then separated her again.
You mean, the kinda CARE that ALL puppys need, lying frosty dahl?
> This was round the clock, of course.
NAAAH? DO TELL??? THAT'S what the ETHICKAL BREEDIN BUSINESS is all
abHOWET.
AIN'T IT, lying frosty dahl <{): ~ ( >
> She was also on Cephalexin.
That so? You think it's WIZE to nurse puppys on
a bitch who's INFECTED and takin antibiotics?
That'll cause the puppys to GET SICK an DIE.
> Things improved after three days.
That's curiHOWES. By all RIGHTS, they shoulda DIED.
> Two teats were still affected but not producing much milk.
> I let her back in with the puppies. Next evening when I
> went to check on her, she was lying in a corner looking
> miserable, with one mammary distended and obviously painful.
And you was lettin the puppys NURSE???
THAT'S INSANE. AIN'T IT, lying frosty dahl <{): ~ ( >
> I hot-packed it and expressed it to relieve some pressure.
> The stuff that came out was varying sorts of nasty.
Yeah. That'll KILL puppys, lyin frosty dahl <{): ~ ( >
> I'll just comment that I doubt most bitches would put
> up with the expressing of milk the way mine did.
THAT'S ABSURD.
> She's got an unusual combination of great temperament
That so?
> and lots of training.
Oh, you mean LIKE THIS?:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
> Then I took her to the emergency clinic. Because she
> obviously felt miserable, she didn't keep herself super
> clean as she always does. All of us noticed her unusual
> amount of vaginal discharge for this stage postpartum.
She probably shoulda had a shot of oxytocin when she
finished deliverin the pups. Did you accHOWENT for
ALL the afterbirths?
> The color was good, but there was more than normal.
> Her temperature was only slightly elevated, but her
> white count was really low. They suspected pyometra.
> Anybody thinking of breeding needs to research pyometra
> (and mastitis) before they start.
Yeah, seems you didn't know enough to take the pups
away from her soon as you DISCOVERED mastitis, eh
lying frosty dahl?
> They got her on IV fluids, heavy-duty antibiotics (Baytril/
> ampicillin), and anti-inflammatories, and observed her. They
> gave (sold) me some milk replacer and a bottle and I went
> home to feed the two remaining puppies, who had been, apparently,
> many hours without eating,
Naaaah? DO TELL? You mean DESPITE your warm, tender, care?
> and care for the other dogs.
And your customers, don't forget.
> I did not really expect that I'd be picking her up
> (didn't think she'd survive, to spell it out).
Yeah. On accHOWENT of you postponed treatin her till you had no choice.
> I got to bed at 5. It wasn't as though I really had any sense
> of what time it was after the all-nighters and near-all-nighters
> I'd been putting in.
You mean, bein a ETHICKAL BREEDER?
> At 5:30 the phone rang. My bitch's gums had started to turn
> red, confirming a major infection somewhere. They were going
> to go ahead and do an emergency spay. This is, of course,
> much more serious surgery than a routine spay. The uterus is
> big and extended postpartum, plus there is infection and the whole
> system is challenged. They also did a partial mastectomy, removing
> two glands. She had lots and lots of milk, making it difficult.
Yeah. It's HUGELY unusual for a bitch to have an
emergency spay two weeks AFTER whelpin, lying
frosty dahl <{): ~ ( >
> They close at 8 a.m. so I had to pick my bitch up and transfer her
> to my own vet for hospitalization. She was so sedated I couldn't
> tell how she was. I went to see her at 3:30 and she still looked as
> miserable as she had the previous evening. At 5:30 I took her back
> to the all-night clinic. She still didn't look very good, and I was
> worried because the initial prediction was that I could take her
> home that morning--so this was her second round of hospitalization
> that wasn't predicted.
Well, it's all part of bein a ETHICKAL BREEDER, ain't it.
> She was on her feet, barely, and when the tech took
> hold of her slip lead,
You mean her CHOKER.
> she resisted.
Naaah?
> This is not usual for her;
It's called the OPPOSITION REFLEX, lying frosty dahl.
It's the REASON you gotta beat choke and shock dogs.
> I think it was a measure of how insecure she felt.
You mean despite all her TRAININ?
> They let me walk her back to her little enclosure.
IMAGINE?
> I went home and fed the puppies and dogs, then called at
> 10 p.m. They said she was better and was hanging out with
> them in the office. She ate several times overnight and was
> onto oral meds by morning. They seemed to love her (she is
> special).
Oh, INDEEDY. She's a selectively bred workin dog.
> Bottle feeding puppies, for those who haven't
> tried it, is no piece of cake.
Well, it DOES take a bit of SENSITIVITY and KNOWLEDGE.
> At first they avoid getting the nipple in their mouths,
Oh? You mean kinda like HOWE they resist your "HAPPY BUMPERS"?
All you gotta do is pinch an twist their ears till they open up.
> then they can't make it work,
Well, at two weeks of age they're far too samll to
beat with a stick. Had you tried chin chuckin them?
> and you have to cut and re-cut the opening hoping to get
> it right so they can get some and not aspirate it into their
> lungs getting pneumonia.
Naaah. Bottle feedin puppys TAKES TIME, lying frosty dahl.
You gotta do THAT to increase SPEED in feedin them.
> Then you have to stimulate the puppies to pee and poop (and
> in the case of these puppies, the stools are loose and stinky).
On accHOWENT of you been feedin them ROTTEN MILK.
> Even when they start getting it, they make wet-sounding
> snuffly noises so you have to always worry they are aspirating.
IF THEY'RE MAKIN NOISES THEY'RE ASPIRATING MILK on accHOWENT
of the HOLE IS TOO BIG on accHOWENT of you don't want to spend
the TIME it takes to bottle feed a puppy, lying frosty dahl.
> Picked her up yesterday morning, and as I wrote before, she
> looked and acted as though she felt OK, although subdued, and
> it was wonderful. Today she is on leash walks only--feels good
> enough that she can't be trusted not to run, jump, and go in the
> ponds.
That's good.
> If it wasn't for the new all-night emergency clinic with
> surgical capability that opened here a few months ago,
> she wouldn't have made it. They were *great*.
Of curse, if you had known what you was DOIN you'd
of scheduled the spay the day pryor so your regular
vet could do it durin office HOWERS.
> My bitch won't be finishing her championship,
> as spayed bitches are not eligible.
That's as good a EXXXCUSE as any, eh lying frosty dahl?
> The guy who has the puppy from her previous litter that
> is running the Open All-Age stake in field trials and won
> Best of Winners at the National Specialty won't be getting
> another of her puppies. (We're planning to keep both of them.)
So you can breed MOORE of the same DEATHLY ILL stock, lying frosty
dahl?
> Breaks of the game.
You mean your LUCK was runnin cold?
> She looks like she is going to be OK and I
> hope to have several good years with her.
You mean as a retired brood bitch? Don't most ETHICKAL
BREEDERS SELL their RETIRED brood bitches instead of
just lockin them in their ETHICKAL BREEDIN kennels?
> That's what counts.
That so?
> Amy Dahl
HOWEDY People,
HOWEDY "dog lovers,"
The debate abHOWET HURTIN dogs to train them and of
curse, the natural reflex of LYIN abHOWET IT has
been goin on long PRYOR to The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy And Horsey Wizard ever heard of Usenet Discussion
News Groups.
Here's HOWER OWN lying frosty dahl ***(A SCIENTIST),
and Master Of Deception blankman DEFENDING HURTING
dogs and showin us, in their own iimitable ways,
their colossal ignorance and Sadistic Nazi Natures:
Subject: shock collars
From: Amy Frost Dahl
Date: Mon, Mar 30 1998 12:00 am
Email: Amy Frost Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, rec.pets.dogs.activities,
rec.pets.dogs.breeds
Bob Brown wrote:
> The use of an electric collar is not negative reinforcement,
> it is punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of an
> aversive stimulus when the correct behaviour is performed.
Actually, some people use the collar in a method called
"escape training" where the dog is shocked continuously
at a low level and learns to "turn off stimulation" by
performing the behavior the trainer desires.
Sounds like this would qualify as "negative reinforcement."
--
Amy Frost Dahl Oak Hill Kennel phone: (910) 295-6710
Retriever Trainer & P.O. Box 1605 email:
a...@oakhillkennel.com
Obedience Instructor Pinehurst NC 28370
No, lying frosty dahl, THAT'S POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT.
See the description of SCIENTIFIC TERMINOLOGY below.
1 From: taft -
Date: Mon, Mar 30 1998 12:00 am
Email: t...@NoSPAM-1845.letterbox.com
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior,
rec.pets.dogs.activities, rec.pets.dogs.breeds
I am appalled by people considering the use of shock collars on
various newsgroups and the GSD web page. Shock collars are useful
ONLY in two circumstances:
1. When a dog DESPERATELY needs a bad behavior to be corrected,
put a shock collar around *your* neck and shock YOURSELF for
allowing the problem to get magnified to such proportions in
the first place.
2. When a COMPETENT trainer suggests the use of a shock collar,
buy an expensive and reliable shock collar, put it around the
*trainer's* neck and shock the TRAINER for making such a
ridiculous suggestion.
andrew
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2 From: blackman
Date: Mon, Mar 30 1998 12:00 am
Email: black...@dog-play.com
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior,
rec.pets.dogs.activities, rec.pets.dogs.breeds
Have you ever felt a shock collar? Until I did just that
I felt pretty much as you do. I also had only seen the
collar used in an abusive, rather than thoughtful manner.
I became less intense in my distaste for the "shock collar"
when I substituted observation for blind opinion.
The range of stimulation ranges significantly. It can indeed
be an awful device. It can also be kinder than a jerk on a collar.
I put on a shock collar and found out exactly how it feels to me.
That gave me good insight as to how, if I chose to use one, I would
make my decisions regarding its use.
I have also observed dogs on which shock collars were used "properly".
My observations of the dog's body language suggested to me that
the dog reacted to the "shock" in much the same way as I did.
"OH! you wanted something?" The level one shock feels similiar
to the shocks you get when you take clothes out of the dryer and
didn't use fabric softener - that snap, crackle, pop, of static
electricity is what I felt from the shock collar.
Level two was very slightly more noticeable, level three was
what I would call "unpleasant" - like those joke "buzzers"
people hide in the hands and then offer to shake hands.
Having both felt a shock collar and observed their use by
thoughtful people I better understand how others might make
that choice.
The tool deserves much caution as it can easily be abused.
What does not make its use automatically evil.
There are many more levels available, and because individual
sensitivities differ (yours and mine as well as the dogs) I
have decided that observation of the dog will be one significant
factor in forming my opinion as to whether the device is being
used abusively, I also would consider the problem trying to be
corrected, the emotional level of the trainer, and the importance
of the goals to be acheived (and since it is MY opinion of abuse
it is MY opinion of importance, not whether the trainer thinks its
important).
Follow-ups reset to rec.pets.dogs.behavior only
Diane Blackman
d...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Be true to your own principles, and hold to them,
else complain not when the world runs contrary.
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:26:31 GMT
Subject: Dr. George VonHilshimer Writes: "No Loving, No Learning."
HOWEDY People,
Perhaps the PROBLEM is "TOO MANY WORDS?"
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that
> > > leap.
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than
the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST
"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.com>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIz...@comcast.com...
Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
it felt like to me when I got shocked by
Hope's collar.
It felt like a bomb going off in my
hand and forearm.
--------------------------------
"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>> how effective are these electronic fences in
>> keeping a dog on a property????
Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.
Just hides under a desk in the house.
-----------
9 From: Amy Frost Dahl
Date: Mon, Mar 30 1998 12:00 am
Email: Amy Frost Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, rec.pets.dogs.activities,
rec.pets.dogs.breeds
It is a mistake to think of electric collars only as
a "last resort" for otherwise "incorrigible" dogs. This
is not electroshock therapy, as was used years ago to
try to alter the preferences of homosexuals. The point
is not to nail the dog with an unbearably painful
punishment "if all else fails."
The electric collar is a device that makes possible one
more method of correction. If you don't believe corrections
are legitimate in dog training, you are correct in thinking
you don't want to use an electric collar. If you do use
corrections, then you know that the level of correction
needs to be adjusted to the dog. An obedience trainer I
worked with said, "correct to the dog's point of response."
There are many types of correction: leash jerks, verbal
corrections, striking the dog with hand, stick, whatever,
or simply interrupting what they are doing,
and different dogs respond differently to these various
forms. While many people say, "I would NEVER hit my dog,"
they often yell at their dogs. My experience is that most
dogs respond with more confidence to a well-timed physical
correction than to being shouted at--possibly because the
physical correction does not carry an emotional load.
The electric collar adds one more means of correction to
the trainer's repertoire. Like all of these other means,
the level of correction can be adjusted to the dog's
"point of response." The collar's particular advantages
are the ability to make well-timed corrections at a distance,
the absence of physical cues, absence of emotional load.
Let's look at the first advantage--the possibility of
making well-timed corrections at a distance. As any
trainer knows, timing is the difference between effective
learning from one instance or a small number of repetitions,
on the one hand, and many, many repeats of a lesson, on the
other. If a dog is 200 yards away and the trainer needs to
make a correction, s/he can holler "NO" to mark the actual
infraction, run out and punish the dog. Because of the time
delay, the punishment needs to be fairly severe for the dog
to be motivated to connect it with the behavior that earned
it the "no" earlier. Also because of the time delay,
repetitions of this procedure will be needed before the
lesson is learned. Poorly-timed corrections do not make for
efficient learning. Finally, hollering "NO" at a dog often
has a deleterious effect on a dog's confidence, even when
not coupled to punishment.
The collar provides an alternative. A well-timed "nick" or
brief shock carries no emotional load, lets the dog know
clearly that it is committing an infraction the trainer
cannot accept, and avoids any drawn-out drama and punishment.
Not only does one individual correction do much less damage
to the dog's enthusiasm for work and confidence in its work
and its trainer, far fewer of these well-timed corrections
are needed.
Empirical evidence that use of the electric collar is
easier on dogs than the "conventional" alternatives exists
in the statistics on retriever field-trial accomplishments.
As Mike Lardy has pointed out, far more bitches are
competing successfully in field trials today than did prior
to the advent of the electric collar. Bitches are generally
softer than dogs and most could not develop to a competitive
level under the methods used by many trainers before modern
collar methods were developed.
Drawbacks to the electric collar occur mostly in the
psychology of its use. It is physically the easiest form
of correction to administer, and if the trainer cannot
keep his/her ego and temper separate from the training
context, s/he can do great damage to a dog in a short time.
Further, because it is new, modern, and expensive, a lot
of people assume they must do ALL of their training with
the collar, which I believe to be a fallacy. Finally,
people fall into the fallacy of thinking pushing the button
makes their dogs learn. It doesn't. It hurts the dog. The
trainer is responsible for teaching the dog so that it
understands.
Let results be your guide. In many forms of dog work, and
retriever work is only one example, a dog is no good at all
unless it has great confidence and love for its work. If
this can be achieved using an electric collar, then the
collar has been used in a way that is not abusive, whatever
your instinctive reaction to the idea of electric shock.
--
Amy Frost Dahl Oak Hill Kennel phone: (910) 295-6710
Retriever Trainer & P.O. Box 1605 email:
a...@oakhillkennel.com
Obedience Instructor Pinehurst NC 28370
http://www.oakhillkennel.com
Melinda Shore
Debbie the Dogged <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
>mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
>poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
??? Were they concerned that you were interested in
producing doodle dogs? Aren't their own dogs neutered?
Robin Nuttall
>
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>
> IMO it bears mentioning that mammals in general, including dogs,
> are exogamous. They have a preference for breeding with distantly-
> or unrelated individuals. It's not merely Murphy's Law at work when
> a bitch is bitchy with a suitor of the same breed, but readily gets bred
> by something else the moment her owner's vigilance relaxes.
Frankly this is the first I have ever heard of this. And I sure haven't
seen it in my breed--lots of bitches are just FINE with dogs not only of
the same breed, but extremely close to them genetically.
>
> These traits are desirable, and any breeder who ignores them is going
> to get punished for it.
>
> On the other hand, you can only be so selective. IMO it's the breeder's
> discretion if he feels a given brood bitch represents so much progress
> in some desired traits that flaws in other traits will be tolerated for the
>
> current generation and tackled later.
Yeah, but "here there be dragons." Often "oh, I'll deal with that later"
just never gets dealt with. Now I will certainly agree that there is no
such thing as a perfect bitch (or dog) and that it's important to
preserve outstanding individuals. But in a breed with large numbers of
dogs, you can't tell me there are so few bitches with these outstanding
qualities that you can afford to ignore the real basics such as natural
breeding, whelping, and mothering.
>
> My understanding is that the great breeders, the ones who have
> established lines that breed true consistently, work this way. They
> conserve the strengths in their line, while trying to add to them.
Sure. All do. But pretty darn core to any breeding operation is having
bitches who can breed naturally, whelp naturally, and are good mothers.
Once you lose that it's damned difficult to get back. Forgive the bitch
who eats half her litter, breed one of her daughters, and don't be
surprised if she eats the litter too...
>
> Maybe, maybe not. My bitch had some trouble with inertia. I did
> some research and found estimates that 60% of bitches in the breed
> suffer from inertia. I could cull an exceptional animal, only to breed
> lower-quality bitches to studs who carry the genetic predisposition
> for inertia--throwing away a lot and possibly gaining nothing.
And how did that 60% figure get there? From breeders discarding this as
important over things they felt were more important. When I think that
is absolutely critical for any breeding FIRST.
>
> In fact, one of her daughters cranked out 13 puppies last month.
> All are doing well, uniform and healthy, as of my last report from
> the breeder.
That's great. And of course it's not a 1 to 1 ratio. But it's too darn
easy to ignore stuff like this in favor of beauty or working ability.
You have to juggle, but those basics will always come first for me.
Debbie the Dogged
> In article <MPG.1f21d1aff...@news.newsguy.com>,
> Debbie the Dogged <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
> >mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
> >poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
>
> ??? Were they concerned that you were interested in
> producing doodle dogs? Aren't their own dogs neutered?
Yes, their dogs were neutered/spayed, so it made absolutely no sense.
Kathleen
> In article <e99ito$k22$1...@panix2.panix.com>, sh...@panix.com says...
>
>>In article <MPG.1f21d1aff...@news.newsguy.com>,
>>Debbie the Dogged <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>>>One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
>>>mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
>>>poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
>>
>>??? Were they concerned that you were interested in
>>producing doodle dogs? Aren't their own dogs neutered?
>
>
> Yes, their dogs were neutered/spayed, so it made absolutely no sense.
"Poodle Cooties". They're highly contagious, dontcha know.
Kathleen
Paula
<seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>In article <e99ito$k22$1...@panix2.panix.com>, sh...@panix.com says...
>> In article <MPG.1f21d1aff...@news.newsguy.com>,
>> Debbie the Dogged <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> >One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
>> >mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
>> >poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
>>
>> ??? Were they concerned that you were interested in
>> producing doodle dogs? Aren't their own dogs neutered?
>
>Yes, their dogs were neutered/spayed, so it made absolutely no sense.
As the owner of a toy poodle, I have to say I can see a lot of sense
in it. Toy poodle owners are obviously crazy, after living with the
little clowns if not before they get one, and who wants to see a
beloved dog go to a crazy person? ;)
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Debbie the Dogged
mmmtob...@earthlink.ent says...
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:39:10 -0700, Debbie the Dogged
> <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <e99ito$k22$1...@panix2.panix.com>, sh...@panix.com says...
> >> In article <MPG.1f21d1aff...@news.newsguy.com>,
> >> Debbie the Dogged <seesigforr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >> >One of the local Maltese rescue people turned me down as soon as I
> >> >mentioned I had toy poodles - "Oh, we don't adopt to anyone with
> >> >poodles" - even when I assured her my poodles were neutered.
> >>
> >> ??? Were they concerned that you were interested in
> >> producing doodle dogs? Aren't their own dogs neutered?
> >
> >Yes, their dogs were neutered/spayed, so it made absolutely no sense.
>
> As the owner of a toy poodle, I have to say I can see a lot of sense
> in it. Toy poodle owners are obviously crazy, after living with the
> little clowns if not before they get one, and who wants to see a
> beloved dog go to a crazy person? ;)
LOL! I have to concede, you do have a point there :-).
Debbie the Dogged
says...
That person certainly acted like that was true! I can understand that
rescues have their screening procedures, but the very first question she
asked was whether I had other dogs, and refused to talk to me after
that. 6 years later, I'm still in wonderment about it. I'm glad that I
later ran into the other rescue person, so I know it was just one
loonie, not the official policy.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Amy Dahl wrote:
>> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>> IMO it bears mentioning that mammals in general, including dogs,
>> are exogamous. They have a preference for breeding with distantly-
>> or unrelated individuals. It's not merely Murphy's Law at work when
>> a bitch is bitchy with a suitor of the same breed, but readily gets bred
>> by something else the moment her owner's vigilance relaxes.
>
>Frankly this is the first I have ever heard of this. And I sure haven't
>seen it in my breed--lots of bitches are just FINE with dogs not only of
>the same breed, but extremely close to them genetically.
Here's my opinion on exogamy. It doesn't apply to domesticated
animals, e.g., canines and horses.
In the wild, probably it does. Because the "opportunities" are far
more numerous in the wild. I also think preference for breeding with
distantly or unrelated animals (especially in wolves, for example) is
affected by the dominant pair in a pack not allowing but one bitch in
the pack to breed. The alpha female. By the alpha male. Other males
are therefore forced to satisfy their urges by looking elsewhere.
But in domesticated animals, this preference wanes, or disappears
altogether, or is basically overcome by the urge to reproduce.
This is just my opinion, and I'm basing it on what I've observed with
my own eyes, in 4+ decades of breeding dogs and (more recently)
horses. I have never witnessed a dog or horse have a preference for
"distantly-or unrelated individuals" over more closely related
individuals.
Nor do I think a dog or a horse has a preference for its own breed,
all things being equal.
>> These traits are desirable, and any breeder who ignores them is going
>> to get punished for it.
>>
>> On the other hand, you can only be so selective. IMO it's the breeder's
>> discretion if he feels a given brood bitch represents so much progress
>> in some desired traits that flaws in other traits will be tolerated for the
>>
>> current generation and tackled later.
>
>Yeah, but "here there be dragons." Often "oh, I'll deal with that later"
>just never gets dealt with.
Nope. Later never comes.
That's why health is *always* paramount with me.
[]
>> My understanding is that the great breeders, the ones who have
>> established lines that breed true consistently, work this way. They
>> conserve the strengths in their line, while trying to add to them.
>
>Sure. All do. But pretty darn core to any breeding operation is having
>bitches who can breed naturally, whelp naturally, and are good mothers.
>Once you lose that it's damned difficult to get back.
Yup.
Famous breeding axiom:
"You get what you select for. You don't get what you don't select
for."
Oooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
TO...@dog-play.com
>> Bloody poop from Cushings? Odd. Many healing thoughts to Raisin and Blue
> Blue's getting along just fine, Raisin has probably Addison's, and my
> DH is in the hospital with a perforation somewhere in his colon.
This week any better? I'm hoping so.
--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
sighthounds & siberians
>On 13 Jul 2006 18:58:53 -0700 sighthounds & siberians <grey...@ncweb.com> whittled these words:
>
>>> Bloody poop from Cushings? Odd. Many healing thoughts to Raisin and Blue
>
>> Blue's getting along just fine, Raisin has probably Addison's, and my
>> DH is in the hospital with a perforation somewhere in his colon.
>
>This week any better? I'm hoping so.
Overall, yes. DH is home, better although not quite back to himself.
If all goes as planned, he'll be having some outpatient, ah,
exploration in 3-4 weeks and surgery a week or two after that to find
and repair the perforation. On the dog front, Blue's splint wasn't
fitting properly and was irritating him, so it had to be changed, but
x-rays confirmed no signs of osteosarcoma. Raisin apparently doesn't
have Cushing's or Addision's, but so far no explanation for a 9+ pound
weight gain in the six months since he went blind from SARD (and we've
cut his food back enough that decreased activity can't be all there is
to it). Mukluk is about to be our first ever shaved Siberian, as he
has some really angry-looking dermatitis cropping up all over. I will
take pictures.
Thanks for asking, Diane, and thanks to everyone who sent prayers
and/or good vibes. Paula, I surely hope your petition works!
Mustang Sally