TPW troll posts.
Jonathan
I was just wondering,
In some of the posts from Jerry, you get:-
"the trainer said that I had to intimidate my dog" or ".. my dog had to fear
me more than he desired to chase a rabbit" <etc>.
Has anyone ever actually heard an approved trainer talk like that in the
States?
I may be naive, but anyone talking like that would be kicked out of the
training group I have visited. There is a certain amount of 'control' going
on- I.e. when in the class, and instruction should be obeyed, but the
trainers seemed to always manage that by perseverence and some clever body
language stuff (that I wish I could emulate better!).
Just wondering if things are different over there!
Cheers, J.
Leah
>"the trainer said that I had to intimidate my dog" or ".. my dog had to fear
>me more than he desired to chase a rabbit" <etc>.
>
>Has anyone ever actually heard an approved trainer talk like that in the
>States?
Heard of it, and worse. Sometimes from trainers, sometimes from vets.
I tell my students that their dogs want them to be strong leaders, but to
remember that true leadership does NOT involve strong-arm methods. (During the
NILIF talk.)
Two weeks ago, in the first class, I noticed that Miss Sassy would cringe and
rapidly blink her eyes when she received a verbal correction. I said to her
young, well-meaning owner, "And you're going to stop slapping Sassy in the
head, right?"
"I thought I was supposed to hit her," she said, meekly.
"I know. A lot of people think that, because that's how they were advised by
other people. But now you know a better way to communicate with her."
This last class, I tested Sassy. No cringe/blink reflex. Not only that, but
her owners (daughter & mom) were having an easier time focusing her.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
Tara O.
news:20030908115712...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>
> I tell my students that their dogs want them to be strong leaders, but to
> remember that true leadership does NOT involve strong-arm methods.
(During the
> NILIF talk.)
Do you recommend NILIF often? I've only recommended it 2 or 3 times and
practiced it about that many but only with dogs with *major* behavioral
issues...like dominance aggression.
> This last class, I tested Sassy. No cringe/blink reflex. Not only that,
but
> her owners (daughter & mom) were having an easier time focusing her.
She quit cringing in only 2 weeks? That's shocking. The dogs we've had in
rescue who were afraid of being hit from past experience took much longer to
stop reacting...some never have. Now alot of them will cringe/cower the
first week in a new home because its an auto-response related to being
uncertain of the new human.
--
Tara
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
That's very surprising to me, too. I've got a couple of dogs in my
house that took years to get over headshyness from being hit.
Cringing/cowering isn't always from being hit.
Mustang Sally
shelly
>This last class, I tested Sassy. No cringe/blink reflex.
>Not only that, but her owners (daughter & mom) were having an
>easier time focusing her.
it's not a good idea to assume that a dog who flinches was
necessarily hit. elliott cringes and has *never* been hit.
harriet *was* likely hit by her former owners. when she's
startled by sudden movements, she has two responses: flatten
and lose bladder/bowel control or stiffen up and prepare to
defend herself.
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
The Puppy Wizard
You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Summer.
"Tara O." <boxe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:bji9f8$isrug$1...@ID-92443.news.uni-berlin.de...
The Puppy Wizard
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20030908115712...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Gwen Watson
"sighthounds etc." wrote:
>
> Cringing/cowering isn't always from being hit.
>
> Mustang Sally
Yep, Clovis still does this after 3 years and we have never
hit her.
I think it is just part of being Clovis.
Gwen
shelly
>Do you recommend NILIF often? I've only recommended it 2 or
>3 times and practiced it about that many but only with dogs
>with *major* behavioral issues...like dominance aggression.
it can be really helpful when dealing with a pushy, bossy dog.
when miss smarty pants gets too big for her britches, i remind
her that she's not the boss of my by making her work her butt
off for everything. the attitude adjustment is pretty quick.
the problem is that i get lax about it and will slack off,
then she gets bossy again, then we go back to the drawing
board (again).
The Puppy Wizard
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net...
Kind2dogs
>From: "Tara O." boxe...@netscape.net
>Date: Mon, Sep 8, 2003 12:11 PM
>Message-id: <bji9f8$isrug$1...@ID-92443.news.uni-berlin.de>
>
>"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
>news:20030908115712...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>>
>> I tell my students that their dogs want them to be strong leaders, but
>to
>> remember that true leadership does NOT involve strong-arm methods.
>(During the
>> NILIF talk.)
I have had TOO MANY dogs come to me that had their owners doing the NILIF. : (
They definitely screwed up the Chessies!
>Do you recommend NILIF often? I've only recommended it 2 or 3 times and
>practiced it about that many but only with dogs with *major* behavioral
>issues...like dominance aggression.
I have NEVER suggested it, as I don't think it is needed.
I like *negotiating* with my guys and even the nastiest ones come around with
kindness and patience and consistency and rules.
Of course I have always aid I like to work with BIG BULLY Brown Dogs
They are my favourite. : )
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Mon, Sep 8, 2003 12:13 PM
>Message-id: <phaplvcu4dp52to3a...@4ax.com>
It can also be because the dog was not socialized, had ear problems,many
reasons.
Paulette~
The Puppy Wizard
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030908125523...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Leah
>Do you recommend NILIF often?
For every dog in my class, yes.
I recommend this:
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
I consider it one of the most "mild" applications of NILIF that I've found.
Concise, easy to understand, seems to work well in establishing the humans as
the pack leaders.
Most of my students are spoiled brats. :}
>She quit cringing in only 2 weeks? That's shocking.
Yea, I was surprised. Seemed quick to me, too.
Leah
>Cringing/cowering isn't always from being hit.
It was the eye-blinking that gave it away. I immediately assumed that her
owner gave her light slaps on the nose or head. I was right.
The Puppy Wizard
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20030908183900...@mb-m26.aol.com...
Child
> I like *negotiating* with my guys and even the nastiest ones come around
with
> kindness and patience and consistency and rules.
Thats all nilif is - consistency and rules.
Kind2dogs
>Date: Mon, Sep 8, 2003 9:20 PM
>Message-id: <vlqan9c...@corp.supernews.com>
Yeah, no petting or loving until they go thru all the motions.
I don't care what my guys do as long as they do what I want them to do, and
here the dogs can do not wrong.
Either I have very well behaved dogs, or I am a strange one and the dogs walk
all over me.
All I know is that how my dogs are treated and the way we live together works
for us.
Paulette~
Charlie Wilkes
wrote:
I am the owner of a 2-1/2 year old female dog who came from
fighting/protection stock and was quite aggressive and snarly as a
puppy. A number of people pointed me toward training resources that
emphasized force and intimidation as the best tools for controlling
such an animal. Jerry advised the opposite approach -- one based on
praise and distraction This is what I did. I followed some of the
exercises in Jerry's manual, and found they actually worked. Before
long, my dog was so slavishly loyal to me that my commands easily
overcame her instinctive tendency to charge people in my driveway and
scare the shit out of them. Now my dog is a model citizen, extremely
well-socialized, instinctively tuned to appropriate behavior and
highly OBEDIENT in all situations, especially the ones where it
matters.
So, I'd say Jerry is a mixed bag -- a Catskills comic with some real
knowledge.
Charlie
shelly
>Yeah, no petting or loving until they go thru all the
>motions.
i think you're referring to strict NILIF, which is not (i
hope) what Leah recommends. she should probably make that
clear to her students. strict NILIF involves long periods of
crating and is, i think, geared toward dogs with serious
behavioral problems.
modified NILIF, which is what i use, just means that my dogs
sing for their supper. they have to work for meals, treats,
toys, etc. i've found that it's especially beneficial to my
Boxer, who is hard-headed, bossy, and has temperament issues.
i think modified NILIF is a good way to get her attention and
reinforce that she's not the boss of me *without* engaging in
silly power struggles.
shelly
>It was the eye-blinking that gave it away. I immediately
>assumed that her owner gave her light slaps on the nose or
>head.
eye blinking isn't anymore reliable a sign of physical abuse
than cringing.
>I was right.
this time.
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 8:06 AM
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Mon, 9 Sep 2003, Kind2dogs wrote:
>
>>Yeah, no petting or loving until they go thru all the
>>motions.
>
>i think you're referring to strict NILIF,
Yes I am, and believe me I have had MANY dogs here that were given up to me as
they got more aggressive on it.
>which is not (i
>hope) what Leah recommends.
Me either.
she should probably make that
>clear to her students. strict NILIF involves long periods of
>crating and is, i think, geared toward dogs with serious
>behavioral problems.
And IMO it makes it much worse at least for Chessies.
>
>modified NILIF, which is what i use, just means that my dogs
>sing for their supper. they have to work for meals, treats,
>toys, etc.
Wel perhaps I am a pushover then.
Just call me a doggie doormat.
>i've found that it's especially beneficial to my
>Boxer, who is hard-headed, bossy, and has temperament issues.
Whatever works for you.
I'm not sure if you know Chessies at all?
A VERY serious type of dog.
>i think modified NILIF is a good way to get her attention and
>reinforce that she's not the boss of me *without* engaging in
>silly power struggles.
>
No power struggles amongst my pack or crew,, as I am THE QUEEN, or THE GENERAL.
: )
Paulette~
Paulette~
Sionnach
> Thats all nilif is - consistency and rules.
No, it's a bit more than that- at least in its "pure" form. I'm sorry, but
unless a dog has such bad habits that the next step is euth., I can't
approve of putting it in a crate most of the time, and never even petting it
without making the dog jump through hoops.
That sort of treatment WILL mess up quite a few dogs- especially if the
problem is one of trust, not of "dominance".
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 9:22 AM
>Message-id: <bjkk5j$jq6vs$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de>
Yup that is what I am saying.
Paulette~
Sionnach
> Has anyone ever actually heard an approved trainer talk like that in the
> States?
I've not personally heard it, but there is still a contingent of trainers
who have that attitude. There's no such thing as an "approved trainer" in
the U.S., btw; could you define the term?
OTOH, there are plenty of trainers in the UK who have such attitudes, too;
plenty of followers of the Woodhouse choke-chain style of training.
The Puppy Wizard
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's
Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand,
Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled
Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bjkk5j$jq6vs$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
shelly
>>i've found that it's especially beneficial to my
>>Boxer, who is hard-headed, bossy, and has temperament issues.
>
>Whatever works for you.
it does.
>I'm not sure if you know Chessies at all?
>
>A VERY serious type of dog.
yes, i've known a couple. i wasn't speaking about Chessies,
though. my dog is a Boxer.
>No power struggles amongst my pack or crew,, as I am THE
>QUEEN, or THE GENERAL.
different strokes. some dogs respect authority just because
it's authority and others constantly test limits. for my dog,
who is a rotten little limit tester, modified NILIF works.
then again, i am fully aware that i create much of the problem
myself. i enjoy pig-headed brats and tend to encourage that
sort of behavior when i shouldn't. (i always preferred
babysitting junior juvenile delinquents over easy kids.)
Sionnach
>
> Yup that is what I am saying.
I should think it would be especially true in the case of Chessies, whose
respect one generally has to *earn*.
shelly
> No, it's a bit more than that- at least in its "pure" form.
even in it's bastardized form, it's more than that.
>I'm sorry, but unless a dog has such bad habits that the next
>step is euth., I can't approve of putting it in a crate most
>of the time, and never even petting it without making the dog
>jump through hoops.
that's an important distinction. Leah is, i assume, referring
to modified NILIF. strict NILIF is *not* for the average
dog! it's for addressing serious behavior issues.
> That sort of treatment WILL mess up quite a few dogs-
>especially if the problem is one of trust, not of
>"dominance".
yes.
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Leah wrote:
>
>>It was the eye-blinking that gave it away. I immediately
>>assumed that her owner gave her light slaps on the nose or
>>head.
>
>eye blinking isn't anymore reliable a sign of physical abuse
>than cringing.
>
>>I was right.
>
>this time.
Assuming one's clients smack their dogs around based on "evidence"
such as this is an interesting way to build one's business...
Mustang Sally
Kind2dogs
>From: Handsome Jack Morrison handsome...@thedetonatorearthlink.net
>
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 10:15 AM
>Message-id: <u3orlvc37t18j7lqo...@4ax.com>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:27:11 -0400, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>plenty of followers of the Woodhouse choke-chain style of training.
>
>
>
She always reminded me of Julia ....
An IMPECCABLY CLEAN RAG. ; )
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
> I should think it would be especially true in the case of Chessies, whose
>respect one generally has to *earn*.
>
>
Honestly though to me I really do love the big nasty male ones that come to
me with a puffed chest, strutting and roaring,with muzzle on and prozac in.
They really do come around with good cookin,lovin,respect and kindness.
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 9:50 AM
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Kind2dogs wrote:
>
>>>i've found that it's especially beneficial to my
>>>Boxer, who is hard-headed, bossy, and has temperament issues.
>>
>>Whatever works for you.
>
>it does.
>
>>I'm not sure if you know Chessies at all?
>>
>>A VERY serious type of dog.
>
>yes, i've known a couple. i wasn't speaking about Chessies,
>though. my dog is a Boxer.
Right, and to me a woos compared to a Chessie.
>
>>No power struggles amongst my pack or crew,, as I am THE
>>QUEEN, or THE GENERAL.
>
>different strokes. some dogs respect authority just because
>it's authority and others constantly test limits. for my dog,
>who is a rotten little limit tester, modified NILIF works.
>then again, i am fully aware that i create much of the problem
>myself. i enjoy pig-headed brats and tend to encourage that
>sort of behavior when i shouldn't. (i always preferred
>babysitting junior juvenile delinquents over easy kids.)
Well I never wanted to babysit. : )
>shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
>http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
>
Paulette~
The Puppy Wizard
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030909092451...@mb-m14.aol.com...
The Puppy Wizard
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030909102933...@mb-m10.aol.com...
The Puppy Wizard
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net...
Sionnach
>
> even in it's bastardized form, it's more than that.
Yep.
>Leah is, i assume, referring
> to modified NILIF.
I should hope so. <G> Leah, it occurs that it might be a good idea for you
to be a bit more specific as to what you mean when you say "NILIF"- to your
students as well as on the NG.
> strict NILIF is *not* for the average
> dog! it's for addressing serious behavior issues.
Bingo!
shelly
>Right, and to me a woos compared to a Chessie.
whatever.
>Well I never wanted to babysit. : )
that wasn't the point.
--
shelly
> I should think it would be especially true in the case of
>Chessies, whose respect one generally has to *earn*.
why? i'm really interested in why working for treats, food,
etc. particularly bad for Chessies. seems counterintuitive to
me.
shelly
> I should hope so. <G> Leah, it occurs that it might be a
>good idea for you to be a bit more specific as to what you
>mean when you say "NILIF"- to your students as well as on the
>NG.
yes. i mentioned that in another post. not only would it
make things more clear here, but it would also preempt a
potential disaster. if one of her students hears NILIF, goes
a-Googling for info, and tries a strict NILIF program with
his/her average dog, the results could be bad.
shelly
>Assuming one's clients smack their dogs around based on
>"evidence" such as this is an interesting way to build one's
>business...
yes, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fishes. oye.
Leah
>> Thats all nilif is - consistency and rules.
> No, it's a bit more than that- at least in its "pure" form.
In the form I present, it's all consistency and rules.
Since the only complaint I get from people is, "You mean I can't give my dog
love when she comes looking for it?" I have a stock answer.
Sure, if she does it in a well-behaved way (such as coming to you, sitting, and
looking at you politely). If she's pushy - pawing, barking, jumping, ramming
her head into your hand - you'll be reinforcing the pushiness. And it will
spill over into other areas.
And then I tell them to always look for random acts of good behavior to reward.
If you're walking by her and she's lying down quietly, stop and give her some
loving then.
>I can't
>approve of putting it in a crate most of the time, and never even petting it
>without making the dog jump through hoops.
Only in a crate if they can't directly supervise and the dog is still not
housetrained (chewing & eliminating).
If you haven't checked out the website, check it out:
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
And yes, she gave me permission to copy it and hand it out.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
Leah
>i think you're referring to strict NILIF, which is not (i
>hope) what Leah recommends.
Again, http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm - and as I said, I consider it a very "mild"
version.
>modified NILIF, which is what i use, just means that my dogs
>sing for their supper. they have to work for meals, treats,
>toys, etc. i've found that it's especially beneficial to my
>Boxer, who is hard-headed, bossy, and has temperament issues.
>i think modified NILIF is a good way to get her attention and
>reinforce that she's not the boss of me *without* engaging in
>silly power struggles.
Exactly!
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sighthounds etc. wrote:
>
>>Assuming one's clients smack their dogs around based on
>>"evidence" such as this is an interesting way to build one's
>>business...
>
>yes, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fishes. oye.
I've had, I think, four Sibe rescues come through here that were
headshy, most probably from being hit. A couple were here long enough
that I took them through basic obedience. Had the instructor blithely
said to me "and you'll stop slapping that dog in the face"... well,
I'm not sure what I would have done.
Mustang Sally
Suja
> never even petting it
> without making the dog jump through hoops.
The only dog I know with whom this is strictly enforced, is Izzy. She
needs it, or she gets overly pushy and demanding. However, this is not
combined with the highly restrictive crating all day and every day
routine - half the reason she is the way she is (I believe) is because
she spent the first 9 months of her life in a crate.
Suja
shelly
>Again, http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm - and as I said, I consider
>it a very "mild" version.
do you make it clear to your students that it's a modified
version of NILIF?
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Sionnach wrote:
>
>> I should think it would be especially true in the case of
>>Chessies, whose respect one generally has to *earn*.
>
>why? i'm really interested in why working for treats, food,
>etc. particularly bad for Chessies. seems counterintuitive to
>me.
Well I did not say the above, but, I do not want my dogs to work much for
anthing,
I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just show them what you
want.
They do UNDERSTAND .
I also love to give attention and do not want them to have to do tricks for me
to give them a kiss.
Paulette~
shelly
>I've had, I think, four Sibe rescues come through here that
>were headshy, most probably from being hit. A couple were
>here long enough that I took them through basic obedience.
good point. even if the headshyness is from abuse, there's no
reason to assume that the current owner/handler is the one who
did the abusing.
>Had the instructor blithely said to me "and you'll stop
>slapping that dog in the face"... well, I'm not sure what I
>would have done.
i would've been pretty damned offended, given the jerk a
sizable piece of my mind, and found myself a more clueful
instructor. there are a multitude of reasons why a dog might
be headshy or skittish that have *nothing* to do with it's
ever having been abused, either by it's current owner or a
previous one.
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
The point is that you feel that in your situation you have to keep one dog
crated while the other dog is eating.
I don't do that, and I have two intact males and five females ,three not
spayed, and we all manage very nicely thank you, and ALL think that they are IT
So you can use NILIF, even moderately.
It is NOT for us here.
Paulette~
Suja
> I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just show them what you
> want.
How do you do that? What do you do if there is a violation of protocol?
I am interested because like I said, Izzy is on modified NILIF, and
most likely will have to stay on it for the foreseeable future. She's a
pit mix, about 2 years old, adopted when she was about 9 months old,
stayed in the crate practically 24/7 before she found her new home, has
serious possession issues, behaves horrendously if she is allowed any
freedoms, does the same when her mom gets sick (she has pretty serious
health problems), etc.
> I also love to give attention and do not want them to have to do tricks for me
> to give them a kiss.
Attention on demand leads to atrocious behavior, including, but not
limited to demanding attention (barking, pawing), getting an inflated
sense of self (it's mine, mine, all mine, and I'll use my teeth to keep
it), being overly protective, etc. I'm interpreting this, but the way
she sees it, it's a chink in the armor.
Suja
couchcam
Kind2dogs wrote:
NILIF = nothing in life is fun
it is used by the stupidest and least creative of dog trainers/handlers.
> It is NOT for us here.
but of course!
the producer
http://dogtv.com
> Paulette~
>
>
>
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 12:28 PM
>Message-id: <jfn7b.3261$pe.306@lakeread06>
>
>Kind2dogs wrote:
>> I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just show them
>what you
>> want.
>
>How do you do that? What do you do if there is a violation of protocol?
Hi Suja~
If there is a *violation of protocol*
What protocol?
Like I said I probably am a doormat .
No really they are use to being with me all the time and going everywhere so
they get to know how to act.
> I am interested because like I said, Izzy is on modified NILIF, and
>most likely will have to stay on it for the foreseeable future. She's a
>
>pit mix, about 2 years old, adopted when she was about 9 months old,
>stayed in the crate practically 24/7 before she found her new home, has
>
>serious possession issues, behaves horrendously if she is allowed any
>freedoms, does the same when her mom gets sick (she has pretty serious
>health problems), etc.
So you have Mom and daughter?
What type of health problems?
>
>> I also love to give attention and do not want them to have to do tricks
>for me
>> to give them a kiss.
>
>Attention on demand leads to atrocious behavior, including, but not
>limited to demanding attention (barking, pawing), getting an inflated
>sense of self (it's mine, mine, all mine, and I'll use my teeth to keep
Well Chessies think everything they walk on is THEIRS but here they know
everything is MINE.
Perhaps because I have quite a few they all know what is expected, but honestly
I do have good pups.
They are not diggers or barkers, or counter surfers,live amongst an antique
filled home, and just hang out.
How are they going to know what to do if they don't get a chance to be free and
screw up?
>it), being overly protective, etc. I'm interpreting this, but the way
>she sees it, it's a chink in the armor.
>
>Suja
As far as the possessive thing, I would show her something else, you know ,tit
for tat and trade, and do this a few times a day, until she has no problem with
HER stuff.
Again as far as the acting horrid when she gets freedom.
Well think about it?
When you are not allowed to do much you go all hog when you get away.
Suja, I am not saying your way is wrong and mine is right.
I just don 't have many problems with my dogs or the dogs that come to me who
supposedly have big problems.
Maybe I don't expect much, although I sincerly doubt that.
Paulette~
>
>
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sighthounds etc. wrote:
>
>>I've had, I think, four Sibe rescues come through here that
>>were headshy, most probably from being hit. A couple were
>>here long enough that I took them through basic obedience.
>
>good point. even if the headshyness is from abuse, there's no
>reason to assume that the current owner/handler is the one who
>did the abusing.
>
>>Had the instructor blithely said to me "and you'll stop
>>slapping that dog in the face"... well, I'm not sure what I
>>would have done.
>
>i would've been pretty damned offended, given the jerk a
>sizable piece of my mind, and found myself a more clueful
>instructor.
I'd have done that, and also shared my experience with the many dog
people I know in this area.
>there are a multitude of reasons why a dog might
>be headshy or skittish that have *nothing* to do with it's
>ever having been abused, either by it's current owner or a
>previous one.
Things just are not always as simple as they might seem. Our first
Borzoi, who was abused and probably hit, is not headshy, and never
really was. Lots of other things, but not that. DH insists that our
second Borzoi, who was crated in a garage and neglected but probably
not hit, is headshy because she was hit in the head. I don't see it.
I see her tilting her head when you reach to pet her, but it really
doesn't look to me like headshyness resulting from being hit. I think
it's just part of being Anna. We've also had track Greyhounds that
were headshy and refused to take treats from a person's hand (the
latter is very common), and I *know* (from knowing the trainers) that
they weren't hit. It's certainly not something I'd assume.
Mustang Sally
shelly
>The point is that you feel that in your situation you have to
>keep one dog crated while the other dog is eating.
no. that wasn't the point.
A) she isn't "crated." she's fed in her crate and isn't given
a release cue until i want her released. the crate itself is
irrelevant beyond the fact that it's got a plastic liner and
is a handy surface to feed her on.
i could feed them side by side if i chose to. that's what i
used to do. my kitchen is lots smaller now, though, so there
just isn't room in it to feed two dogs, especially if i'm in
there, too. sending harriet to her room to eat is simply
convenient for me.
B) your comment was that modified NILIF is bad for Chessies,
presumably because they're "IT," but that it might work for
Boxers because they're wusses. to that, i say again,
whatever.
>I don't do that, and I have two intact males and five females
>,three not spayed, and we all manage very nicely thank you,
>and ALL think that they are IT
okay.
>So you can use NILIF, even moderately.
>
>It is NOT for us here.
okay. that wasn't the point, either, though. NILIF has
nothing to do with my dogs eating in separate spots.
The Puppy Wizard
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030909122058...@mb-m25.aol.com...
shelly
>Well I did not say the above, but, I do not want my dogs to
>work much for anthing,
when discussing modified NILIF, you said it was bad for
Chessies.
>I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just
>show them what you want.
that doesn't answer the question. regardless of how *you*
interact with *your* dogs, you stated that modified NILIF is
bad for Chessies. i'm curious. why?
Mary Healey
> Kind2dogs wrote:
>> I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just show them
>> what you want.
>
> How do you do that? What do you do if there is a violation of protocol?
Temporary banishment or withdrawal of attention.
>> I also love to give attention and do not want them to have to do
>> tricks for me to give them a kiss.
Giving attention because YOU choose to and allowing a dog to demand
attention are two entirely different things. But you know that.
> Attention on demand leads to atrocious behavior, including, but not
> limited to demanding attention (barking, pawing), getting an inflated
> sense of self (it's mine, mine, all mine, and I'll use my teeth to keep
> it), being overly protective, etc. I'm interpreting this, but the way
> she sees it, it's a chink in the armor.
It can be. Ranger's ball obsession doesn't seem to have much effect on
anything else.
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches
Gwen Watson
Mary Healey wrote:
> Suja wrote:
> > Kind2dogs wrote:
> >> I am of the belief for me and my dogs the way to go is just show them
> >> what you want.
> >
> > How do you do that? What do you do if there is a violation of protocol?
>
> Temporary banishment or withdrawal of attention.
>
OK Mary I am going to ask my "dumb" question
of the day. How long is considered temporary?
And *IF* once out of banishment the same pushiness
occurs then how long? And again and again? Just curious
as this is one of the things Clovis does. Very pushy
and demands, with claws and all attention.
So far banishment just doesn't cut it. Once out she
will do it again.
Gwen
shelly
>Borzoi, who was abused and probably hit, is not headshy, and
>never really was.
harriet was likely hit, and has a whole sack full of hinky
behavioral baggage, but she isn't headshy. if your hand comes
toward her, she will either lift her nose up to meet it or, if
she interprets it as threatening, will hunch her whole body
down a little bit. i interpret it that to mean she's hoping
you won't make her use her teeth. she's only done the latter
to me a few times. when she does, i call her a dork, give her
a rough pat on the head, and move on.
>Lots of other things, but not that. DH insists that our
>second Borzoi, who was crated in a garage and neglected but
>probably not hit, is headshy because she was hit in the head.
>I don't see it. I see her tilting her head when you reach to
>pet her, but it really doesn't look to me like headshyness
>resulting from being hit.
is she otherwise jumpy? nervy dogs can be easily startled by
movements toward their heads.
>I think it's just part of being Anna. We've also had track
>Greyhounds that were headshy and refused to take treats from
>a person's hand (the latter is very common), and I *know*
>(from knowing the trainers) that they weren't hit. It's
>certainly not something I'd assume.
i don't doubt it a bit. elliott is a bit headshy, in that he
flinches and closes his eyes when your hand comes at him
suddenly. he's pretty bomb-proof, temperament-wise, though.
aside from that bit of flinching, it's almost impossible to
startle him.
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
Please post where I said that.
As for Chessies, they either get more aggressive or shut down.
I don't like it and would not use it and the Chessies that have come to me and
have been on it were even worse ,so their owners said ,then before they started
it.
Paulette~
Suja
> What protocol?
>
> Like I said I probably am a doormat .
You *never* have dogs try to take advantage of your good nature?
> So you have Mom and daughter?
Isabelle is a friend's dog whom I dog sit regularly. She is a perfect
angel for me (okay, as much of an angel as I can reasonably expect of
her), but she doesn't act all bratty until she has really settled in,
and thinks of the home as hers. The 'MOM' I mentioned is her human mom,
not her dog mom. She absolutely hates having to share her people, so
she'll stay a single dog.
> What type of health problems?
Her human mom has autoimmune disorders. Several of those put her out of
commission for serious lengths of time.
> Well Chessies think everything they walk on is THEIRS but here they know
> everything is MINE.
But how do they know? That's what I'd like to know. Izzy is exactly
that way - the house is hers (guards it), the rawhide is hers (also
guards it unless worked on constantly), the people are hers (jealous if
her people, myself included, pay attention to other dogs), Khan is hers
(she tries to intervene if he tries to play with another dog - won't
play with him herself, but doesn't want anyone else playing with him
either), etc.
> How are they going to know what to do if they don't get a chance to be free and
> screw up?
Actually, the NILIF started fairly recently. Her behavior deteriorated
to the point where they actually had to severely restrict her freedoms
and slowly earn them back. Any time they slack off on the rules, she
acts up.
> As far as the possessive thing, I would show her something else, you know ,tit
> for tat and trade, and do this a few times a day, until she has no problem with
> HER stuff.
They've done that from day one. But, if a week goes by without the
exercises, and she starts to regress.
> When you are not allowed to do much you go all hog when you get away.
I understand what you're saying. Giving her lots of room, expecting her
to not abuse her freedom doesn't work. With her, you give her some
freedom, she attemps to take more, and more, and more....
Suja
sionnach
> why? i'm really interested in why working for treats, food,
> etc. particularly bad for Chessies.
Erm, that's not what either Paulette or I said. We were talking about the
sort of hard-core NILIF program where the dog is crated all the time, and
you're not supposed to even pet the dog without making it jump through
hoops.
Gwen Watson
Suja wrote:
> ), the people are hers (jealous if
> her people, myself included, pay attention to other dogs), Khan is hers
> (she tries to intervene if he tries to play with another dog - won't
> play with him herself, but doesn't want anyone else playing with him
> either), etc.
>
And the above describes Clovis to a "T".
Suja would you mind emailing me some more about
this?
Gwen
shelly
>Please post where I said that.
not much point, as you've restated it below.
>As for Chessies, they either get more aggressive or shut
>down.
modified NILIF makes Chessies shut down or get (more)
aggressive? how? i explained it in another post, but perhaps
you don't understand what i mean by modified NILIF? modified
NILIF is simply expecting the dog to work for it's rewards.
why would that make a Chessie (more) aggressive or shut down?
>I don't like it and would not use it and the Chessies that
>have come to me and have been on it were even worse ,so their
>owners said ,then before they started it.
i'm not asking if you like it or if you use it.
Gwen Watson
sionnach wrote:
> Erm, that's not what either Paulette or I said. We were talking about the
> sort of hard-core NILIF program where the dog is crated all the time, and
> you're not supposed to even pet the dog without making it jump through
> hoops.
And that is quite similar to what Schutzhund people do only
in a 6 x 10 kennel. I call it a form of neglectful abuse.
Gwen
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Kind2dogs wrote:
>
>>Please post where I said that.
>
>not much point, as you've restated it below.
>
>>As for Chessies, they either get more aggressive or shut
>>down.
>
>modified NILIF makes Chessies shut down or get (more)
>aggressive? how? i explained it in another post, but perhaps
>you don't understand what i mean by modified NILIF? modified
>NILIF is simply expecting the dog to work for it's rewards.
>why would that make a Chessie (more) aggressive or shut down?
Ok, Shelly, IME with lots of Chessies when they have been put on ANY TYPE of
NILIF, they do not do well on it.
Perhaps it is because the people that are doing the NILIF that have the
Chessies are idiots,but it seems IME that it does not work.
So for me and the Chessies I work with we will do things with me being the
leader, and them having a lot of freedom,and also giving them lots of attention
and exercise.
>>I don't like it and would not use it and the Chessies that
>>have come to me and have been on it were even worse ,so their
>>owners said ,then before they started it.
>
>i'm not asking if you like it or if you use it.
Everyone has their thoughts on things according to THEIR experience and that is
what makes them like something or not.
Why not tell us WHY you feel YOU LIKE to USE NILIF .
--
>shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
>http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
PAulette~
Mary Healey
> Mary Healey wrote:
>>Suja wrote:
>>>How do you do that? What do you do if there is a violation of protocol?
>>
>>Temporary banishment or withdrawal of attention.
>
> OK Mary I am going to ask my "dumb" question
> of the day. How long is considered temporary?
Depends on the dog. A minute. Two. Maybe three, if one or both of us
get distracted.
> And *IF* once out of banishment the same pushiness
> occurs then how long?
Depends on the offense, really.
> And again and again?
Well, at that point, I'd begin to suspect that whatever I was doing
wasn't much of a correction (since it is apparently having no corrective
effect on the dog), and I'd start looking for something else to try.
> Just curious as this is one of the things Clovis does. Very pushy
> and demands, with claws and all attention.
You sit down, and she's all over you? Or are Blade and Reznor getting
scritches and she pushes them out of the way?
> So far banishment just doesn't cut it. Once out she
> will do it again.
When a critter becomes a pest, my first question is "Is he right?" Am I
favoring another dog, or ignoring them all excessively? Does the dog
really deserve more attention than I've been giving him? Sometimes,
with all that goes on, the dogs get short shrift and they ARE justified
in asking for a little more human interaction.
Even if the answer is "yes", though, and I increase the one-on-one
stuff, I'll do it to my schedule. A dog can be right without being in
charge <g>.
Gwen Watson
Mary Healey wrote:
> You sit down, and she's all over you?
That's it!
> Or are Blade and Reznor getting
> scritches and she pushes them out of the way?
No they aren't cuz she is pushing herself on
us.
>
>
> > So far banishment just doesn't cut it. Once out she
> > will do it again.
>
> When a critter becomes a pest, my first question is "Is he right?"
Well I asked that question 3 years ago. But I have pointed out
I am not one to let an animal that has broken bread at my table
leave.
> Am I
> favoring another dog,
Well Blade is my heart dog but he doesn't ever get the opportunity
in her presence to be favored to tell you the truth.
> or ignoring them all excessively?
Nope not even.
> Does the dog
> really deserve more attention than I've been giving him?
That's always possible, I think when people work and commute
to work at that. I probably not the bestest in the world
but I do love and care for all my animals.
> Sometimes,
> with all that goes on, the dogs get short shrift and they ARE justified
> in asking for a little more human interaction.
Again she is the one going to Agility. Not Blade, not Reznor.
And she does solidly confirm MO about obtaining a dog
verses a puppy since neither Blade nor Reznor act like
this or have these issues.
>
>
> Even if the answer is "yes", though, and I increase the one-on-one
> stuff, I'll do it to my schedule. A dog can be right without being in
> charge <g>.
>
> --
> Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
> Ranger, Duke,
> felines, and finches
I see. I hope you have time to give feedback on the above.
Gwen
shelly
> Erm, that's not what either Paulette or I said.
originally. then, after i clarified that i was talking about
*modified* NILIF, she said it made Chessies more aggressive
and made them shut down. that may be a reading comprehension
problem on her part, and if so, fine, but if not, i'm curious
as to why *modified* NILIF and Chessies don't mix.
>We were talking about the sort of hard-core NILIF program
>where the dog is crated all the time, and you're not supposed
>to even pet the dog without making it jump through hoops.
well, my recollection is that the discussion was that about
the fact that was not likely to be what Leah was recommending.
after clarifying that she was likely to be referring to
modified NILIF, Paulette still claimed that it was bad for
Chessies.
--
shelly
>Ok, Shelly, IME with lots of Chessies when they have been put
>on ANY TYPE of NILIF, they do not do well on it.
thank you. i still don't understand why Chessies, in
particular, would be harmed by being expected to earn rewards.
then again, i've just got wussy dogs.
>Perhaps it is because the people that are doing the NILIF
>that have the Chessies are idiots,but it seems IME that it
>does not work.
if it's improper application of the technique, why blame the
technique?
>Everyone has their thoughts on things according to THEIR
>experience and that is what makes them like something or not.
again, i'm not asking about what your personal approach to
your dogs is. there are plenty of things i don't do with my
dogs that i'm curious about and engage in discussion of.
it's even interesting to discuss the pros and cons of things i
don't ever want to do with my dogs. if you can't or don't
want to discuss something like this in the abstract, then fair
enough.
>Why not tell us WHY you feel YOU LIKE to USE NILIF .
i did.
sionnach
"shelly" wrote:
> well, my recollection is that the discussion was that about
> the fact that was not likely to be what Leah was recommending.
> after clarifying that she was likely to be referring to
> modified NILIF, Paulette still claimed that it was bad for
> Chessies.
I think I must be missing some posts- I didn't see Paulette say that,
and your "why?" appeared to be asked in response to my comment, which *was*
about hard-core NILIF; the 24/7 crating and ignore the dog crap. USENET
weirdness, I guess. <G>
I don't think the modified form - having the dog earn some of its
food/treats, and not allowing pushiness- would be bad for Chessies.
Paulette probably doesn't need it because she has natural authority with
'em. <G>
Gwen Watson
sionnach wrote:
>
> Paulette probably doesn't need it because she has natural authority with
> 'em. <G>
Indeed and understands the breed inside and out. <g>
Gwen
shelly
> I think I must be missing some posts- I didn't see
>Paulette say that, and your "why?" appeared to be asked in
>response to my comment, which *was* about hard-core NILIF;
>the 24/7 crating and ignore the dog crap.
she later clarified that she thinks any kind of NILIF is bad
for Chessies. maybe i'm missing something, but i think that's
really, really odd.
>USENET weirdness, I guess. <G>
heh. there seems to be plenty of that going around right now.
> I don't think the modified form - having the dog earn some
>of its food/treats, and not allowing pushiness- would be bad
>for Chessies. Paulette probably doesn't need it because she
>has natural authority with 'em. <G>
that's why i was trying to separate her dealings with her own
dogs and modified NILIF with Chessies in general.
The Puppy Wizard
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net...
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sionnach wrote:
I have to say there has been a lot of posting today and heck I am not use to it
anymore.
>> Erm, that's not what either Paulette or I said.
>
>originally. then, after i clarified that i was talking about
>*modified* NILIF, she said it made Chessies more aggressive
>and made them shut down.
Maybe I did not see muchof a difference between modified or full blown.
> that may be a reading comprehension
>problem on her part,
No I don't have many problems comprehending dog issues, Shelly.
> and if so, fine, but if not, i'm curious
>as to why *modified* NILIF and Chessies don't mix.
Well, tell you what. You get a nasty Chessie and try it on him or her.
Then t ll me what you think as I am not going to use ANY NILIF.
As I said IME the ones that had been on it, just were more nasty according to
their owners and their behaviorists.
So because I am NOT one IOTA interested in using such,as what works for me is
lots of exercise both mental and physical and time to chill out and kindness, I
am not about to try something that I disapprove of.
>
>>We were talking about the sort of hard-core NILIF program
>>where the dog is crated all the time, and you're not supposed
>>to even pet the dog without making it jump through hoops.
>
>well, my recollection is that the discussion was that about
>the fact that was not likely to be what Leah was recommending.
>after clarifying that she was likely to be referring to
>modified NILIF, Paulette still claimed that it was bad for
>Chessies.
Okay I will say it right here....<IN MY EXPERIENCE it is Not A good Thing For
Chessies.>
That's all you are going to get Shelly.
Paulette~
Mary Healey
> Mary Healey wrote:
>>You sit down, and she's all over you?
>
> That's it!
Sam sometimes does this. And Lindy can be an absolute twerp about
"herherHER" human (whoever's lap she's using as a cushion).
Sam gets a "go lie down" (on the sofa, usually) or sent to his crate
with the door open if he's an obnoxious pest. If he can sit beside me
quietly and allow the other dogs a turn, then he's permitted to stay.
If Lindy tries the "MINE!" snarkiness, she loses the lap. In a generous
mode, I'll warn her once before dethroning her. Either way, there's no
discussion, and it leaves her nothing to defend. (Then she goes and
sulks, but that's a different matter.)
How about a "sit" to be petted? Or a down? Is she pesty when you sit
down for a meal, or is that somehow different?
Aside: the most hilarious thing in the world is seeing Duke's "up
periscope" from across the dinner table. It doesn't happen much
anymore, because he knows there's no reward for begging, but it's still
a bit of a startle seeing those big brown eyes s-l-o-w-l-y raising into
view from the table horizon. Which reminds me, Sam isn't allowed under
the table. Ever. Not because he's a pain about it, although that's
part of it. He's got the warmest, moistest, least bearable doggie
breath of any critter extant, and he insists on breathing on my legs.
>>Or are Blade and Reznor getting
>>scritches and she pushes them out of the way?
>
> No they aren't cuz she is pushing herself on
> us.
<g> Then you tell her to sit and stay and call one of the others for
pets. Fuss over her when she obeys and waits patiently (or impatiently)
for her turn. Make absolutely sure she gets a turn! By making the wait
one step toward the reward, she'll learn to endure it better. At
least, that's the theory. Make sense?
I pet who I want, when I want, and anybody who disputes that can go sit
in a corner until I'm done. It's probably a good thing I don't have
children.
When the snarks over toys or treats occur around here, you'll hear the
simple phrase, "It's mine now, Bubba" as I remove the object of dispute
from play.
Oh, and sometimes you just have to know the dog. When Duke gets pesty,
he'll stand in your lap and go eyeball-to-eyeball with you. He doesn't
really want to be petted -- he needs to go outside.
Kind2dogs
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sionnach wrote:
>
>> I think I must be missing some posts- I didn't see
>>Paulette say that, and your "why?" appeared to be asked in
>>response to my comment, which *was* about hard-core NILIF;
>>the 24/7 crating and ignore the dog crap.
>
>she later clarified that she thinks any kind of NILIF is bad
>for Chessies. maybe i'm missing something, but i think that's
>really, really odd.
>
>>USENET weirdness, I guess. <G>
>
>heh. there seems to be plenty of that going around right now.
>
>> I don't think the modified form - having the dog earn some
>>of its food/treats, and not allowing pushiness- would be bad
>>for Chessies. Paulette probably doesn't need it because she
>>has natural authority with 'em. <G>
>
>that's why i was trying to separate her dealings with her own
>dogs and modified NILIF with Chessies in general.
Yes but the two are pretty hard to separate.
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 3:12 PM
>Message-id: <3F5E261D...@ig.utexas.edu>
I think so. : )
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 3:16 PM
>Message-id: <bjl8s8$k8668$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de>
Thanks Sarah.
Anytime someone wants to come visit my 700 pounds plus of dogs and see how we
relate please give a call and I will make lunch.
Now I have to go make some money.
Woofs
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 3:13 PM
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Kind2dogs wrote:
>
>>Ok, Shelly, IME with lots of Chessies when they have been put
>>on ANY TYPE of NILIF, they do not do well on it.
>
>thank you. i still don't understand why Chessies, in
>particular, would be harmed by being expected to earn rewards.
>then again, i've just got wussy dogs.
Did I say your dogs were wusses?
I believe compared to Chessies lots of dogs are wusses.
>
I apologize if I called your dogs that.
>>Perhaps it is because the people that are doing the NILIF
>>that have the Chessies are idiots,but it seems IME that it
>>does not work.
>
>if it's improper application of the technique, why blame the
>technique?
Because I don't like it?
>>Everyone has their thoughts on things according to THEIR
>>experience and that is what makes them like something or not.
>
>again, i'm not asking about what your personal approach to
>your dogs is. there are plenty of things i don't do with my
>dogs that i'm curious about and engage in discussion of.
YOu see well there ya go. I am not curious about others techniques as I know
what works for me perfectly.
>it's even interesting to discuss the pros and cons of things i
>don't ever want to do with my dogs. if you can't or don't
>want to discuss something like this in the abstract, then fair
>enough.
Ok than fair enough I don't.
>
>>Why not tell us WHY you feel YOU LIKE to USE NILIF .
>
>i did.
>
Didn't see it.
Anyway
How about those Cubbes? Or was it Chubbes? Heehee
Paulette~
Gwen Watson
Mary Healey wrote:
>
>
> How about a "sit" to be petted?
I do this all night long! And if I stop petting her she
claws me or DH to death.
> Or a down?
Same thing.
> Is she pesty when you sit
> down for a meal, or is that somehow different?
Much different. Somehow that is the *only* time
she doesn't do it. I suppose we should sit at the dinner
table all evening. <g>
>
>
> Aside: the most hilarious thing in the world is seeing Duke's "up
> periscope" from across the dinner table. It doesn't happen much
> anymore, because he knows there's no reward for begging, but it's still
> a bit of a startle seeing those big brown eyes s-l-o-w-l-y raising into
> view from the table horizon. Which reminds me, Sam isn't allowed under
> the table. Ever. Not because he's a pain about it, although that's
> part of it. He's got the warmest, moistest, least bearable doggie
> breath of any critter extant, and he insists on breathing on my legs.
>
> >>Or are Blade and Reznor getting
> >>scritches and she pushes them out of the way?
> >
> > No they aren't cuz she is pushing herself on
> > us.
>
> <g> Then you tell her to sit and stay and call one of the others for
> pets. Fuss over her when she obeys and waits patiently (or impatiently)
> for her turn. Make absolutely sure she gets a turn! By making the wait
> one step toward the reward, she'll learn to endure it better. At
> least, that's the theory. Make sense?
She snaps when we have attempted this. I know I am doing something
way wrong. Though strangely I never had this issue with a dog I have
raised from a puppy and there have certainly been enough of them.
>
>
> I pet who I want, when I want, and anybody who disputes that can go sit
> in a corner until I'm done. It's probably a good thing I don't have
> children.
>
> When the snarks over toys or treats occur around here, you'll hear the
> simple phrase, "It's mine now, Bubba" as I remove the object of dispute
> from play.
Toys are never an issue. Nor treats as they all line up and I have a good
handle on
both of those. Its US, humans.
>
>
> Oh, and sometimes you just have to know the dog. When Duke gets pesty,
> he'll stand in your lap and go eyeball-to-eyeball with you.
She does this but she definitely doesn't want out she wants your
undivided attention.
> He doesn't
> really want to be petted -- he needs to go outside.
> --
> Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
> Ranger, Duke,
> felines, and finches
She has just come inside.
Gwen
shelly
>Maybe I did not see muchof a difference between modified or
>full blown.
there's a huge difference. i believe Leah posted a link to
what she defines as modified NILIF. you can modify it to fit
just about any dog.
like i said, i use it as a way to remind miss bossy pants that
she isn't in charge. i have her sit and wait before she eats.
she has to work to earn toys and treats. most importantly for
her, i decide when i want to pet her. when i want to give her
attention, she has to earn it. otherwise, she's a pushy
greedy-guts and will plow right over anything in her path to
demand what she wants.
>No I don't have many problems comprehending dog issues,
>Shelly.
that's not what i said. i was referring to *reading*
comprehension. you apparently have misunderstood what was
meant by *modified* NILIF.
>Well, tell you what. You get a nasty Chessie and try it on
>him or her.
no thanks. i'm not at all interested in Chessies.
>Then t ll me what you think as I am not going to use ANY
>NILIF.
i'm not asking you to. that's why i asked if you were willing
and able to discuss it in the abstract.
>Okay I will say it right here....<IN MY EXPERIENCE it is Not
>A good Thing For Chessies.>
>
>That's all you are going to get Shelly.
alrighty.
sionnach
> Did I say your dogs were wusses?
Er, yes, you did. Or at least when she said she had a Boxer, you said
"Boxers are wusses".
shelly
>Did I say your dogs were wusses?
yep!
>YOu see well there ya go. I am not curious about others
>techniques as I know what works for me perfectly.
silly me for seeking edumication. i'll go sit in the corner
and mind my own damned business now.
>Didn't see it.
*several* times.
>How about those Cubbes? Or was it Chubbes? Heehee
i'm not the person to ask. if you want to talk about west
Mexican Pre-Columbian pottery, i'm your girl. i don't do
baseball, though.
shelly
>Paulette, with all due respect, I'm not getting your point,
>either. Which wouldn't be the first one I've missed today,
>either.
thanks. i was starting to think it might be time to put
down the ol' crack pipe.
>IMO, it's just another tool in the ol' training bag.
exactly.
>But it's going to have to wait until after I have a blood
>meal. You know how we vampires get when we don't eat
>regularly, right? :)
i *knew* you weren't to be trusted.
Mary Healey
> Mary Healey wrote:
>>How about a "sit" to be petted?
>
> I do this all night long! And if I stop petting her she
> claws me or DH to death.
The "sit" postition, to my recollection, doesn't include waving claws.
Precision, Gwen. If I ask a dog to "down", I mean "elbows on the
ground". If I ask a dog to "sit", I don't mean "hover an inch or more
off the ground".
> She snaps when we have attempted this.
At them, or at you? And what does it get her?
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sighthounds etc. wrote:
>
>>Borzoi, who was abused and probably hit, is not headshy, and
>>never really was.
>
>harriet was likely hit, and has a whole sack full of hinky
>behavioral baggage, but she isn't headshy. if your hand comes
>toward her, she will either lift her nose up to meet it or, if
>she interprets it as threatening, will hunch her whole body
>down a little bit. i interpret it that to mean she's hoping
>you won't make her use her teeth. she's only done the latter
>to me a few times. when she does, i call her a dork, give her
>a rough pat on the head, and move on.
>
>>Lots of other things, but not that. DH insists that our
>>second Borzoi, who was crated in a garage and neglected but
>>probably not hit, is headshy because she was hit in the head.
>>I don't see it. I see her tilting her head when you reach to
>>pet her, but it really doesn't look to me like headshyness
>>resulting from being hit.
>
>is she otherwise jumpy? nervy dogs can be easily startled by
>movements toward their heads.
Not really. It's not a startle movement, it's more as if she was
turning her head to rest it on your hand, or show you where she wants
petted. I have no idea why DH thinks she's being headshy; he's
usually more clueful than that.
>>I think it's just part of being Anna. We've also had track
>>Greyhounds that were headshy and refused to take treats from
>>a person's hand (the latter is very common), and I *know*
>>(from knowing the trainers) that they weren't hit. It's
>>certainly not something I'd assume.
>
>i don't doubt it a bit. elliott is a bit headshy, in that he
>flinches and closes his eyes when your hand comes at him
>suddenly. he's pretty bomb-proof, temperament-wise, though.
>aside from that bit of flinching, it's almost impossible to
>startle him.
One of our Sibes is still a tad headshy, but otherwise very stable and
not nervy. Raised voices do make him a little nervous, though.
Mustang Sally
The Puppy Wizard
You gonna KILL IT, gwen honey?
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for
putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
we would not have had to hold the head of a really
magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
behind fake names are more honest than people that use
their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to
just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> admit to buying and having success with his little black
> box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
> him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the
box first?)
Hello People,
Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and
hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a
long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry
came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard
way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is
just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and
KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
----------------------------------------------
"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:
CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3F5E30EA...@ig.utexas.edu...
The Puppy Wizard
As a second generation dog abuser you oughta be
real good at this part...
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
Robert Crim writes:
>Terri
Hello People,
----------------------------------------------
"Mary Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:bjlje3$o1p$1...@news.iastate.edu...
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 5:03 PM
>Message-id: <bjlf5f$k4u87$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de>
>
>
>
>> Did I say your dogs were wusses?
>
> Er, yes, you did. Or at least when she said she had a Boxer, you said
>"Boxers are wusses".
>
>
I should have said. IME and All things relative Boxers are wusses compared to
Chessies.
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 4:56 PM
>Message-id: <ameslv8eca8mad7s2...@4ax.com>
>
>On 09 Sep 2003 19:53:48 GMT, kind...@aol.com (Kind2dogs) wrote:
>
>
>>As I said IME the ones that had been on it, just were more nasty according
>to
>>their owners and their behaviorists.
>
OK, no problemo, Jack, as like you said that seems to be going around. : )
>Which wouldn't be the first one I've missed today, either.
>
>Certain Chessies, just like with *any* breed of dog, can indeed
>benefit from a dose of NILIF.
Of course, and I am willing to do what ever it takes to get a dog to come
around so it can be adopted.
BUT I have not found it to be so wth the Chessies that have come to me that
had been on NILIF
According to their owners or their trainers they were worse than better.
So when they got here, there was no NILIF training form me,even though some of
these same dogs arrived in crates and with muzzles on.
And because I have not had to use it with the Chessies that have come to me,I
feel IME , that it has not worked.
Of course like I have said or at least I have thought I said, it probably
could work, but I have not found it to make a Chessie come around .
However perhaps IF I was doing the NILIF it would work.: )
BUT that is not going to happen as I have not had a Chessie that did not come
around doing it MY WAY.
> It's not what I use, and it doesn't
>sound like what you use, but it can work for some people who can't get
>the results they want any other way. It's just a form of obedience
>training, really, and it has a similar effect on a dog's behavior.
I understand this Jack.
Like I said whatever works,but this is not for me nor the Chessies that come to
me IMO.
>IMO, it's just another tool in the ol' training bag.
Yup I agree!
>
>Yes, like any training tool, it can be misused, I suppose, but when
>it's used correctly, it can work, even on the nastiest of dogs.
Well it didn't work with the ones that were given up to me.
So that is what I have to go by.
>But maybe I've misunderstood you, too, and the point you're trying to
>make is getting lost somewhere in all the recent storms.
Nope, I probably have made all confused.
Thankfully I don't make the dogs confused.
>Anyway, I'm all ears, if you want to discuss it further.
>
>But it's going to have to wait until after I have a blood meal. You
>know how we vampires get when we don't eat regularly, right? :)
>
Yes, just finished dinner.
Rock Cornish Game Hens, fresh veggies from the garden with mozzarella baked in
the oven twice baked potatoes, Caesar salad,and a Jack Daniel Chocolate Cake
with fresh strawberries, and a few cocktails before...
Good Night Jack
Paulette~
Kind2dogs
>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 5:26 PM
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.56.03...@tesla.bluemarble.net>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Kind2dogs wrote:
>
>>Did I say your dogs were wusses?
>
>yep!
Sorry
>
>>YOu see well there ya go. I am not curious about others
>>techniques as I know what works for me perfectly.
>
>silly me for seeking edumication. i'll go sit in the corner
>and mind my own damned business now.
Well, you said that you were not interested in Chessies.
So what is the diff?
>
>>Didn't see it.
>
>*several* times.
>
>>How about those Cubbes? Or was it Chubbes? Heehee
>
>i'm not the person to ask. if you want to talk about west
>Mexican Pre-Columbian pottery, i'm your girl. i don't do
>baseball, though.
>
Well the last artifact I had,like such, I sent off to auction as it is not my
thing.
Neither is baseball.
Paulette~
Nessa
(in message <2lrrlv41omfid3b7b...@4ax.com>):
> Had the instructor blithely
> said to me "and you'll stop slapping that dog in the face"... well,
> I'm not sure what I would have done.
I know what I would have done.
I would have slapped the instructor and said "you mean LIKE THAT?"
--
Nessa
http://www.nessa.info
No trumpets sound when the important decisions of our life are made. Destiny
is made known silently. -- Agnes DeMille
Paula
> On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, sighthounds etc. wrote:
>
> >I've had, I think, four Sibe rescues come through here that
> >were headshy, most probably from being hit. A couple were
> >here long enough that I took them through basic obedience.
>
> good point. even if the headshyness is from abuse, there's no
> reason to assume that the current owner/handler is the one who
> did the abusing.
>
> >Had the instructor blithely said to me "and you'll stop
> >slapping that dog in the face"... well, I'm not sure what I
> >would have done.
>
> i would've been pretty damned offended, given the jerk a
> sizable piece of my mind, and found myself a more clueful
> instructor. there are a multitude of reasons why a dog might
> be headshy or skittish that have *nothing* to do with it's
> ever having been abused, either by it's current owner or a
> previous one.
Lacey acts really headshy. She also absolutely would not pee or poop in
front of a human. It took a long time to get her to feel comfortable
going potty around humans and even once she tried it, it took a lot of
repetitions for her to trust that it wasn't just a fluke that we didn't
get mad at her for peeing. She only has, and still does, act headshy
when she has something in her mouth. Strangely enough, it is not people
she is afraid of. She will come up to anyone and show them her treasure
in her mouth (though she does not want to give it up. She got the it's
cool to retrieve things part of what her sisters do, but hasn't figured
out the it's also fun so I should give it to the human to have it thrown
again). She acts very skittish around the other dogs, who have not been
abusive to her, either, but will take it from her if it is something
they think is a really good treasure. So for her, skittish comes from
fear of being robbed, not beaten, and fear of being beaten did not
result in any skittish behavior at all, just high levels of sneakiness
all done with a very happy grin. OTOH, I think I could probably beat
Punk bloody and she still would not act the least bit headshy. She
certainly doesn't seem to mind getting bopped by the bigger dogs nor
does it slow her down much in her exuberance. She will, however,
respond really quickly to verbal corrections from the other dogs. "Damn
those hunters for breeding labs to not feel much as they run through all
kinds of nasties to get the birdies!" says Diva. Dutchie, who is more
of a woofer than a bopper in disciplinary style, wants me to teach him
how to blow a whistle and Susan to train a good whistle stop and sit.
--
Paula
"Napoleon should be seen in Superdeterminism-Analogy History
theory as the Hitler of France." -- Archimedes Plutonium
The Puppy Wizard
"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g117lh.166f1m0so0074N%mmmtob...@earthlink.net...
The Puppy Wizard
kin2nobodybutyourself...
"Kind2dogs" <kind...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030909204224...@mb-m22.aol.com...
sighthounds etc.
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:18:01 -0400, sighthounds etc. wrote
>(in message <2lrrlv41omfid3b7b...@4ax.com>):
>
>> Had the instructor blithely
>> said to me "and you'll stop slapping that dog in the face"... well,
>> I'm not sure what I would have done.
>
>I know what I would have done.
>
>I would have slapped the instructor and said "you mean LIKE THAT?"
That is kind of a fitting response, under the circumstances.
Mustang Sally
Charlie Wilkes
>>Subject: Re: TPW troll posts.
>>From: Handsome Jack Morrison handsome...@thedetonatorearthlink.net
>>
>>Date: Tue, Sep 9, 2003 4:56 PM
>>Message-id: <ameslv8eca8mad7s2...@4ax.com>
>>
>>On 09 Sep 2003 19:53:48 GMT, kind...@aol.com (Kind2dogs) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As I said IME the ones that had been on it, just were more nasty according
>>to
>>>their owners and their behaviorists.
>>
>>Paulette, with all due respect, I'm not getting your point, either.
>
>OK, no problemo, Jack, as like you said that seems to be going around. : )
I fully and completely understand your point, for what it is worth.
>
>>Which wouldn't be the first one I've missed today, either.
>>
>>Certain Chessies, just like with *any* breed of dog, can indeed
>>benefit from a dose of NILIF.
>
>Of course, and I am willing to do what ever it takes to get a dog to come
>around so it can be adopted.
>
>BUT I have not found it to be so wth the Chessies that have come to me that
>had been on NILIF
>
>According to their owners or their trainers they were worse than better.
>
>So when they got here, there was no NILIF training form me,even though some of
>these same dogs arrived in crates and with muzzles on.
>
>
>And because I have not had to use it with the Chessies that have come to me,I
>feel IME , that it has not worked.
>
>Of course like I have said or at least I have thought I said, it probably
>could work, but I have not found it to make a Chessie come around .
>
>However perhaps IF I was doing the NILIF it would work.: )
>
>BUT that is not going to happen as I have not had a Chessie that did not come
>around doing it MY WAY.
Yes. You are on to the right approach, especially for large,
potentially dangerous dogs. You have to use positive inducements so
they know and value their place in society too much to risk it with
bad behavior.
HORK! I'm not surprised. Frankly, I haven't met a B&B proprietor yet
who wasn't a raging alcoholic. We had a situation in the San Juan
Islands a few years ago where husband and wife ran a B&B, and they
were both a couple of drunks, and the woman killed her husband and
ground him up in a sausage grinder. Of course people wonder if the
customers ever got a taste of her vengeance...
Charlie
shelly
>On 10 Sep 2003 00:42:24 GMT, kind...@aol.com (Kind2dogs) wrote:
>
>>I should have said. IME and All things relative Boxers are
>>wusses compared to Chessies.
>
>I just don't understand comments like that one, Paulette.
nor do i. apparently it's some sort of contest. if it's that
important to Paulette, i'll concede that Chessies are the
biggest, baddest uber dogs on Urth. whatever.
shelly
>>silly me for seeking edumication. i'll go sit in the corner
>>and mind my own damned business now.
>
>Well, you said that you were not interested in Chessies.
>
>So what is the diff?
the "diff" is that the discussion was about NILIF and
Chessies, not Chessies in general. if you want to discuss
Chessies in the context of NILIF, i'm all ears.
>Well the last artifact I had,like such, I sent off to auction
>as it is not my thing.
ouch. twice snubbed. how will i *ever* get over it?