Dogless Vacation
Suja
Well, we're long overdue for a vacation (last one was in 1996), and will
be going to India for 3 weeks. Needless to say, the furry one can't go
with us, and will be staying with Izzy's family. I have absolutely no
concerns as far as his care is concerned, and am sure that we'll miss
him more than he'll miss us. Since we are gone for so long, and won't
be easy to get a hold of, what do we need to take care of dog-wise
before taking off?
So far, I've thought of:
Ordering a new bag of dog food. Give them half the bag, and tell them
where the rest will be stored. That way, they can get to it should they
run out. Oh, and a jar with extra treats. Of course, they'll have a
key so they can get into the house.
Lots of extra rawhide. Khan normally goes through about a rawhide a
week, but has been in a real chewing mood lately. I figured that if we
leave 6 or 7, it should be fine, assuming that Izzy will eat at least
one of his.
I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in the
morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
have bread in the house or anything.
One dose of Frontline and Interceptor (there is a first of the month in
there somewhere).
Slicker brush and rake, and must demonstrate how to groom him. We're
planning on giving him a bath before taking him over there, so no need
for shampoo. I will leave baby wipes for wiping him down daily. I'll
leave his towel too so that he has something that reminds him of home.
We both use the same vet, so no need for vet numbers. I think that I
should have him checked out by the vet before we leave - have found 3
attached ticks on him so far, and want to rule out lymes as he has been
a bit more lethargic than usual, and I am not sure it is just the heat
that's doing him in.
He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him from getting
gassy. I think that if I present it that way (you choose, gas or a
little extra work), they won't mind getting him some yogurt. Should I
leave a container for them?
Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
to me.
Anything else?
Suja
Dimpled Chad
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
> case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
> him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
> to me.
Hmm. I'm not sure I'd do this one; the potential for abuse, even with family,
is too great. But that's me.
What's your vet like? Maybe you can talk with them, let them know you are
going away, etc. If there's an emergency, Izzy's family can call you and you
can authorize payment with the vet over the phone somehow (credit card). If
you and your vet are in good standing, you can agree to cover any necessary
expenses before you go, so there aren't any questions at the time.
Chad
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Gwen Watson
Suja wrote:
> I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in the
> morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
> have bread in the house or anything.
Ah ha! Well there you go about the food. Blade doesn't get any extras
nor does he normally get much treats unless training him. Though special
occassions. And when he does get leftover ribeye his food portion is cut
down.
As is Clovis's
>
>
> One dose of Frontline and Interceptor (there is a first of the month in
> there somewhere).
Indeed/
>
>
> Slicker brush and rake, and must demonstrate how to groom him. We're
> planning on giving him a bath before taking him over there, so no need
> for shampoo. I will leave baby wipes for wiping him down daily. I'll
> leave his towel too so that he has something that reminds him of home.
>
> We both use the same vet, so no need for vet numbers. I think that I
> should have him checked out by the vet before we leave - have found 3
> attached ticks on him so far, and want to rule out lymes as he has been
> a bit more lethargic than usual, and I am not sure it is just the heat
> that's doing him in.
>
> He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him from getting
> gassy. I think that if I present it that way (you choose, gas or a
> little extra work), they won't mind getting him some yogurt. Should I
> leave a container for them?
>
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
> case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
> him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
> to me.
>
> Anything else?
>
> Suja
I would leave a Mastercard, Visa or Discover rather than the Blank check.
And I would have this all arranged with Vet ie preapproved type thing
so no problem occurs.
Or you could leave a check at the Vet's office with a just in case type
arrangement.
You have pretty much covered all the bases as far as I can tell.
Gwen
shelly
10:19:37 -0400
in message 3EAFDB79...@nhgri.nih.gov:
> I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in
> the morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't
> like they won't have bread in the house or anything.
i'd send a loaf with him if it were me.
> We both use the same vet, so no need for vet numbers.
when i've left elliott, i've called the vet to let them know
i'm going to be out of town and who is caring for him. that
way, if a stranger shows up with my dog, the vet isn't going
to be confused. since you share a vet, though, that shouldn't
be an issue.
> I
> think that I should have him checked out by the vet before
> we leave - have found 3 attached ticks on him so far, and
> want to rule out lymes as he has been a bit more lethargic
> than usual, and I am not sure it is just the heat that's
> doing him in.
oh my, i hope he's okay! ticks are *eeeeeeeevil*, i tell you.
> He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him
> from getting gassy. I think that if I present it that way
> (you choose, gas or a little extra work), they won't mind
> getting him some yogurt. Should I leave a container for
> them?
i'd ask them ahead whether or not they want to give him
yogurt. if they do, then i'd buy it for them.
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to
> them just in case there is an emergency and they need a lot
> of money to take care of him? I don't want to insult them
> or anything, but this sounds practical to me.
i do this whenever i leave elliott for more than a day or two.
i don't see why it should be at *all* insulting.
> Anything else?
a temporary tag with Izzy's family's address and phone number
would be a good idea. you can make them yourself at Petsmart
(it's about the only thing i'm willing to even go in there
for).
have fun in India! it hasn't been long since your folks left,
but i imagine it feels like half of forever.
shelly (vicious Klingon tart) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Shannon Larkin
I've dogsat for countless dogs. Here's my point of view, from the
dogsitter's perspective;
"Suja" <span...@nhgri.nih.gov> wrote in message
news:3EAFDB79...@nhgri.nih.gov...
> Ordering a new bag of dog food. Give them half the bag, and tell them
> where the rest will be stored. That way, they can get to it should they
> run out. Oh, and a jar with extra treats. Of course, they'll have a
> key so they can get into the house.
Fine. Although just bringing over the whole darn bag wouldn't be an insult,
and might be easier all around.
> Lots of extra rawhide. Khan normally goes through about a rawhide a
> week, but has been in a real chewing mood lately. I figured that if we
> leave 6 or 7, it should be fine, assuming that Izzy will eat at least
> one of his.
Khan will not perish without rawhide. Leave as much as you usually give
him, plus a few extra for Izzy, but don't panic about it. I assume that
there are no rawhide-aggression issues betweeen Izzy and Khan?
> I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in the
> morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
> have bread in the house or anything.
Three weeks? Leave a loaf. But honestly, Khan probably wouldn't miss it.
Guinness gets a carrot every night at home. When we sent him off to stay
with friends for a week, we left a 5-pound bag of carrots. They forgot to
give him any, and he didn't remind them. I felt a little silly getting back
the unopened bag of carrots. ;-)
> One dose of Frontline and Interceptor (there is a first of the month in
> there somewhere).
Of course. It might be easier if you can dose him before you go, in case
they forget. but absolutely, pack it.
> Slicker brush and rake, and must demonstrate how to groom him. We're
> planning on giving him a bath before taking him over there, so no need
> for shampoo. I will leave baby wipes for wiping him down daily. I'll
> leave his towel too so that he has something that reminds him of home.
Yup. Pack them all in his bag.
> We both use the same vet, so no need for vet numbers. I think that I
> should have him checked out by the vet before we leave - have found 3
> attached ticks on him so far, and want to rule out lymes as he has been
> a bit more lethargic than usual, and I am not sure it is just the heat
> that's doing him in.
Having him checked by the vet before you go, esp. if he's acting oddly, is a
Very Good Thing.
> He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him from getting
> gassy. I think that if I present it that way (you choose, gas or a
> little extra work), they won't mind getting him some yogurt. Should I
> leave a container for them?
Does he eat it willingly? Do they just need to plop it in with his kibble?
If it's an easy supplement, just explain what its for, and give them a
quart. It doesn't sound like it's really much work at all.
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
> case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
> him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
> to me.
Okay, here's what I have done with all of my dog-sittees. We all use the
same vet, so it's always understood that I would take their dogs to a vet
they know. And since blank checks are risky (what if it gets lost?) and
credit cards require a signature, why bother? I have always paid for vet
visits up front, with the understanding that I would be reimbursed when the
owner gets back. Of the countless times I have dogsat, I've only every had
to bring a dog to the vet twice. Each time the (grateful) owner wrote me
a check or handed me cash when they picked up their dog. Plus, since these
are always good friends, it's not like we don't trust each other. Just make
it crystal clear to them that that expense is to be passed on to YOU.
> Anything else?
Make sure any special instructions are in writing (like how many scoops of
kibble per day, how often the yogurt, etc), with all emergency phone
numbers. Remember how adaptable dogs are, and how easily Khan will fit
himself into their routine.
Enjoy!
-Shannon
> Suja
Trish C.
>Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
>case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
>him?
Suja, when I've been gone & unreachable, I've taken letters to the vet &
emergency clinic saying that my friend Tommy had my c.c. and was authorized to
use it for the boys' health care or in the event of an emergency. I included
all of his info and his signature as well. Both accepted it.
Trish
Marcel Beaudoin
news:20030430115051...@mb-m13.aol.com:
> Suja, when I've been gone & unreachable, I've taken letters to the vet
> & emergency clinic saying that my friend Tommy had my c.c. and was
> authorized to use it for the boys' health care or in the event of an
> emergency. I included all of his info and his signature as well.
> Both accepted it.
I think that, although this is accepted by the Vet and emergency clinic,
it is illegal in most cases. You could pre-authorize something at the
vets office, although I don't know how that would affect your cc. If you
pre-authorize for $500, does that cut your limit down by $500??
Personally, I think that either a blank check (with a warning on how much
you have in your account) or getting them to make a list of how much
things cost followed by re-imbursement when you get back would be the
best idea...
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
Remove urka-gurka to reply
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Bang, Blow!'
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BethF
> Lots of extra rawhide. Khan normally goes through about a rawhide a
> week, but has been in a real chewing mood lately. I figured that if we
> leave 6 or 7, it should be fine, assuming that Izzy will eat at least
> one of his.
Oh, AT LEAST.
> I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in the
> morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
> have bread in the house or anything.
Actually, its really awfully cute, not stupid.
It will be easiest for me to remember to give the dog a slice of bread if
you brought me a loaf I think.
> He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him from getting
> gassy. I think that if I present it that way (you choose, gas or a
> little extra work), they won't mind getting him some yogurt. Should I
> leave a container for them?
Why not. If you are bringing bread, you might as well bring yogurt.
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
> case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
> him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
> to me.
I always leave the sitter a blank check just in case. It is practical, and
it sounds like they know you well, and know you are most definitely
practical.
shelly
Apr 2003 15:58:53 GMT
in message Xns936D79FCBF50mb...@130.133.1.4:
> I think that, although this is accepted by the Vet and
> emergency clinic, it is illegal in most cases.
i could be way wrong, but i think laws on this are pretty lax
in the US. IANAL (obviously!) but my understanding is that as
long as you give the person permission, they can use your
credit card. in practical terms, my experience has been that
there isn't much problem using someone else's cc. at
different times i've sent friends to the store with my credit
card, my check book, and my debit card and have yet to have
one of them come back sans loot.
queenmother
news:b8omvp$c779u$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
> a temporary tag with Izzy's family's address and phone number
> would be a good idea. you can make them yourself at Petsmart
> (it's about the only thing i'm willing to even go in there
> for).
>
This is a great idea! We've got some friends who are moving to Florida and
we're planning to help them move and also to do some house-sharing with them
afterwards. I'm intending to get ID tags for Spenser with both phone
numbers on them. Just in case he gets lost on the way to or from or while
we're down there. I figure we'll just have a Florida Collar with that tag
on it and trade off collars depending on where we are.
As far as the vet, I would call their office and see what they will require
if Khan needs treatment while you're gone. They may have some sort of form
for you to sign giving Izzy's parents permission to authorize treatment.
And if you're a regular customer, they probably will hold the bill for you
to return - but if they won't then you'll be able to discuss it with them
before you leave and make any arrangements.
I'd send extra rawhide - think of it as a hostess gift to Izzy from Khan!
As far as anything else they might need to spend money for, you *could*
leave them an envelope with some cash in it for things like yogurt and bread
that they would buy along. This is what my brother does when they leave
their kids with us. We just put in the receipts and the change and give
it back to them when they come back. But I doubt they even check it.
~~Judy
Gwen Watson
queenmother wrote:
> "shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
> news:b8omvp$c779u$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
> > a temporary tag with Izzy's family's address and phone number
> > would be a good idea. you can make them yourself at Petsmart
> > (it's about the only thing i'm willing to even go in there
> > for).
> >
>
> This is a great idea! We've got some friends who are moving to Florida and
> we're planning to help them move and also to do some house-sharing with them
> afterwards. I'm intending to get ID tags for Spenser with both phone
> numbers on them. Just in case he gets lost on the way to or from or while
> we're down there. I figure we'll just have a Florida Collar with that tag
> on it and trade off collars depending on where we are.
>
I too thought it to be a great idea. I am storing it in my little brain
and hopefully it actually stores. LOL
It was the one thing not on Suja's grand list of things.
BTW Suja no problem with the bread and giving bread.
I was just basically pointing out there were calories being
consumed.
I think the slice of bread per day is not only cute but special.
I sure hope you didn't take what I said about bread as being
ugly. It wasn't my intent. Everyone has mentioned sending
one loaf. I must assume this loaf will have to be frozen since
you are to be gone 3 whole weeks? Otherwise I can't see
it will last past one week.
Gwen
Suja
> I've dogsat for countless dogs. Here's my point of view, from the
> dogsitter's perspective;
Good.
> Fine. Although just bringing over the whole darn bag wouldn't be an insult,
> and might be easier all around.
Well, they don't have a lot of extra storage space, and Izzy cannot be
trusted with a bag of food that is sitting around in easy reach. I'd
seriously doubt that Khan'll go through 40 lb. of food in 3 weeks.
> Khan will not perish without rawhide. Leave as much as you usually give
> him, plus a few extra for Izzy, but don't panic about it. I assume that
> there are no rawhide-aggression issues betweeen Izzy and Khan?
I know. If they run out, Izzy'll just share hers with him. I am really
careful about the quality of everything he eats (milkbone being the
exception), and just want to make sure that he gets "the good stuff".
There are no rawhide or bone aggression issues between them, 'cause Khan
isn't all that crazy about that stuff and rarely cares if someone else
takes it, and when he does, Izzy is very good at groveling and
apologizing. He is also the only dog Izzy peacefully coexists with,
because he is very laid back and takes a lot of shit from her, he is
very good at making clear what the rules are should she think about
crossing the line, and he totally doesn't seek out human attention,
which is something Izzy craves and gets PO'd about.
> give him any, and he didn't remind them. I felt a little silly getting back
> the unopened bag of carrots. ;-)
He's not pushy about getting his food at all, and won't make any fuss if
someone forgets to feed him. He just assumes that he isn't getting
anything to eat and goes about his business.
> Of course. It might be easier if you can dose him before you go, in case
> they forget. but absolutely, pack it.
We are leaving in the middle of the month, and I didn't want to dose him
within a space of two weeks. Since they do the same thing for their
dog, hopefully they won't forget about him.
> Having him checked by the vet before you go, esp. if he's acting oddly, is a
> Very Good Thing.
For everyone's peace of mind, I think it is good to know that he is in
good shape.
> Does he eat it willingly? Do they just need to plop it in with his kibble?
> If it's an easy supplement, just explain what its for, and give them a
> quart. It doesn't sound like it's really much work at all.
He *loves* yogurt. So, it is a matter of putting a dollop or two on top
of his kibble. And, he'll remind you when he hasn't had any for a few
days - you just don't want it to get that bad.
> they know. And since blank checks are risky (what if it gets lost?) and
> credit cards require a signature, why bother? I have always paid for vet
> visits up front, with the understanding that I would be reimbursed when the
> owner gets back.
Well, my question is about *huge* expenses, running in the thousands of
dollars. I don't know too many people who would have the bandwidth to
come up with it out of the blue, although I have no doubt that these
folks will do it. Why stress them unnecessarily when I know that we
can/will cover anything that will come up?
Called the vet. They were very nice and helpful, and took the credit
card number so they can treat him should something come up. Also set up
an appointment for Friday - turns out he was due for his annual physical
anyway. Will get him Lyme tested then.
> Make sure any special instructions are in writing (like how many scoops of
> kibble per day, how often the yogurt, etc), with all emergency phone
> numbers.
Believe me, there are pages and pages of instructions. I get seriously
teased for that. As freaked as I am, I'm sure that he'll have a blast.
> Remember how adaptable dogs are, and how easily Khan will fit
> himself into their routine.
He'll have to get used to going out and having even more fun than he
already does. Woo-Hoo!
Suja
Dimpled Chad
> Called the vet. They were very nice and helpful, and took the credit
> card number so they can treat him should something come up. Also set up
That sounds like a great solution, Suja, plus you are protected against
fradulent use. Glad that worked out.
> an appointment for Friday - turns out he was due for his annual physical
> anyway. Will get him Lyme tested then.
Excelente.
>
>
> Believe me, there are pages and pages of instructions. I get seriously
> teased for that. As freaked as I am, I'm sure that he'll have a blast.
>
Heh. I'm like that with the instructions too, though where Frankie goes (back
to the rescue from which he was adopted) they know shih tzus better than we
do...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
A single fact can spoil a good argument.
Gwen Watson
Suja wrote:
> Called the vet. They were very nice and helpful, and took the credit
> card number so they can treat him should something come up. Also set up
> an appointment for Friday - turns out he was due for his annual physical
> anyway. Will get him Lyme tested then.
>
Great Suja!
That has been my experience as well. Though my most treasured
and adored Vet does not take credit cards of any kind, saddly.
Which means I would have to arrange for a different Vet I rarely
use and really don't trust too much, saddly.
Glad to hear Khan is being checked out on Friday.
When do you leave? I will miss seeing you around here!
Gwen
Suja
>
> I too thought it to be a great idea. I am storing it in my little brain
> and hopefully it actually stores. LOL
You might need to poke it in really hard. I've noticed that when I
don't do that, stuff has a tendency to fall out ;-)
> I sure hope you didn't take what I said about bread as being
> ugly. It wasn't my intent.
I'm fairly thick skinned, Gwen. Definitely not easy to offend.
Besides, I thought that you had brought up a good point, and nothing
more.
> Everyone has mentioned sending
> one loaf. I must assume this loaf will have to be frozen since
> you are to be gone 3 whole weeks? Otherwise I can't see
> it will last past one week.
I don't know. The store bought stuff tends to last a fairly long time
if you leave it refrigerated.
Suja
Marcel Beaudoin
39167.news.dfncis.de:
> in practical terms, my experience has been that
> there isn't much problem using someone else's cc. at
> different times i've sent friends to the store with my credit
> card, my check book, and my debit card and have yet to have
> one of them come back sans loot.
Some stores aren't a good check for that. When I got my new AMEX card, I
forgot to sign it and went to the store to use it. I signed the slip, and
then when the cashier checked the card, she said that I had to sign that
one as well. She then checked the signatures to see if they were the
same...
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
Remove urka-gurka to reply
*******************************************
'One man's confusion is another man's
Ph.D. thesis.'
*******************************************
shelly
in message Xns936D82B89791mb...@130.133.1.4:
> Some stores aren't a good check for that.
obviously! it's not uncommon in the US (dunno about Canadia)
for multiple people in a family to use one card. when i was
in high school, it seemed as if everyone took their parents'
cards to the mall with them. as a grown up, my experience has
been that things haven't changed. my best friend uses her
SO's card all the time. she either signs his name or signs
both their names. AFAIK she's never had a problem using his
card.
> When I got my new
> AMEX card, I forgot to sign it and went to the store to use
> it. I signed the slip, and then when the cashier checked the
> card, she said that I had to sign that one as well. She then
> checked the signatures to see if they were the same...
<snort> they might want to rethink that approach. i don't
sign the back of my debit card. clerks are supposed to ask
for picture ID if it's not signed. so far, i've only been
asked for ID at our local grocery store.
Marcel Beaudoin
39167.news.dfncis.de:
> i don't
> sign the back of my debit card. clerks are supposed to ask
> for picture ID if it's not signed. so far, i've only been
> asked for ID at our local grocery store.
I know a friend who has written on the back of her cc "Please ask for ID"
and regularly does NOT get asked for ID. Most of the time she goes to the
supervisor/manager and points it out and makes a complaint.
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
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God in a mirror.'
*******************************************
shelly
in message Xns936D84799B22Dmb...@130.133.1.4:
> I know a friend who has written on the back of her cc
> "Please ask for ID" and regularly does NOT get asked for ID.
> Most of the time she goes to the supervisor/manager and
> points it out and makes a complaint.
i'll have to try that!
Dimpled Chad
It's my experience that its getting worse, not better, here in Chicago. Many
retailers are installing keypad boxes at the check-out lane, mostly for the
use of debit cards. The customers typically swipes the card themselves, and
while the machines instruct them to hand the card to the cashier, this step
is often ignored.
With the exception of Target, in the current calendar year, I've never been
asked to tender my card for a signature check after using one of these
machines. I can only think of a handful last year...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
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Gwen Watson
Suja wrote:
> Gwen Watson wrote:
> >
> > I too thought it to be a great idea. I am storing it in my little brain
> > and hopefully it actually stores. LOL
>
> You might need to poke it in really hard. I've noticed that when I
> don't do that, stuff has a tendency to fall out ;-)
Yeah my brain definitely has several holes where things can fall out
or seep out. LOL So the info will have to be stuffed and plugged in.
>
>
> > I sure hope you didn't take what I said about bread as being
> > ugly. It wasn't my intent.
>
> I'm fairly thick skinned, Gwen. Definitely not easy to offend.
> Besides, I thought that you had brought up a good point, and nothing
> more.
Yeah that was my intent was just making a point about extra
intake that you may not have considered as actual? Or something
along those lines. I am very glad you weren't offended.
>
>
> > Everyone has mentioned sending
> > one loaf. I must assume this loaf will have to be frozen since
> > you are to be gone 3 whole weeks? Otherwise I can't see
> > it will last past one week.
>
> I don't know. The store bought stuff tends to last a fairly long time
> if you leave it refrigerated.
>
> Suja
Well yeah refrigerated would work with ole Mrs Biards or
whatever. LOL
Gwen
shelly
GMT
in message Xns936D7AD5054...@130.133.1.4:
> It's my experience that its getting worse, not better, here
> in Chicago. Many retailers are installing keypad boxes at
> the check-out lane, mostly for the use of debit cards.
they're ubiquitous here and i have *never* seen anyone hand
over their card to the cashier.
> The
> customers typically swipes the card themselves, and while
> the machines instruct them to hand the card to the cashier,
> this step is often ignored.
even worse--when i've tried to hand over my card, i've been
waved off.
> With the exception of Target, in the current calendar year,
> I've never been asked to tender my card for a signature
> check after using one of these machines. I can only think of
> a handful last year...
scary, isn't it?
Dimpled Chad
>> With the exception of Target, in the current calendar year,
>> I've never been asked to tender my card for a signature
>> check after using one of these machines. I can only think of
>> a handful last year...
>
> scary, isn't it?
Yup.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
Circular Definition: see Definition,
Circular.
The Puppy Wizard
her bones like he did yours pullin you down to chase critters.
"Suja" <span...@nhgri.nih.gov> wrote in message
news:3EAFDB79...@nhgri.nih.gov...
>
Rocky
> The store bought stuff tends to last a fairly long time
> if you leave it refrigerated.
Get Wonderbread - with what's in it, a loaf should last forever.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
> i don't
> sign the back of my debit card. clerks are supposed to ask
> for picture ID if it's not signed. so far, i've only been
> asked for ID at our local grocery store.
In the signature area of my last credit card, I wrote "Ask for
ID". They ask every time.
Suja
> Get Wonderbread - with what's in it, a loaf should last forever.
Well, maybe not forever.
http://www.saskschools.ca/~reynolds/sciencegrass/botany/botanymyles.htm
Suja
Dimpled Chad
Even better, IMO, one of my cards has my picture and signature on the front
of the card....
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
All generalizations are bad.
shelly
GMT
in message Xns936D819E456C8australianshepherdca@IP:
> In the signature area of my last credit card, I wrote "Ask
> for ID". They ask every time.
that's what Marcel suggested. i think i'm going to try it,
but since IME cashiers almost *never* turn the card over to
look at the signature, i don't know how much good that'll do.
shelly
GMT
in message Xns936D8B317B67...@130.133.1.4:
> Even better, IMO, one of my cards has my picture and
> signature on the front of the card....
yabbut, they have to actually look at the card in order for
that to be helpful.
Dimpled Chad
> "Dimpled Chad" <dimp...@hotmail.com> wrote on 30 Apr 2003 18:39:20
> GMT
> in message Xns936D8B317B67...@130.133.1.4:
>
>> Even better, IMO, one of my cards has my picture and
>> signature on the front of the card....
>
> yabbut, they have to actually look at the card in order for
> that to be helpful.
Very good point....
Suja
>
> Even better, IMO, one of my cards has my picture and signature on the front
> of the card....
That'd work if I ever had to hand my card over to someone else. When I
lived in NY OTOH, they always checked the signatures. Yesterday, when I
was at HD, the guy in front of me forgot to sign on the electronic
signature thing and walked off. The cashier just scratched on it, and
carried on as normal.
Suja
Dimpled Chad
> Dimpled Chad wrote:
Boggle
-Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"Did you ever walk into a room and
forget why you walked in? I think
that's how dogs spend their lives." -
Sue Murphy
Marcel Beaudoin
39167.news.dfncis.de:
> "Rocky" <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote on 30 Apr 2003 18:35:50
> GMT
> in message Xns936D819E456C8australianshepherdca@IP:
>
>> In the signature area of my last credit card, I wrote "Ask
>> for ID". They ask every time.
>
> that's what Marcel suggested. i think i'm going to try it,
> but since IME cashiers almost *never* turn the card over to
> look at the signature, i don't know how much good that'll do.
What you do is, if they don't ask for ID, go to the manager and make a
complaint. It might also be worthwhile to inform VISA/MC/AMEX/?? about
the store. They may carry a lot more weight than you do...
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
Remove urka-gurka to reply
*******************************************
'SOMEONE RAN OVER THE CAT! Oh, sorry,
didn't know you had bagpipes.'
*******************************************
shelly
Apr 2003 19:31:53 GMT
in message Xns936D9E197C19Bmb...@130.133.1.4:
> What you do is, if they don't ask for ID, go to the manager
> and make a complaint.
*that* i'm likely to do.
> It might also be worthwhile to inform
> VISA/MC/AMEX/?? about the store. They may carry a lot more
> weight than you do...
this is something i'm not very likely to do.
Sionnach
"Marcel Beaudoin" wrote:
> I think that, although this is accepted by the Vet and emergency clinic,
> it is illegal in most cases.
Not exactly illegal- just not permitted by many cc companies, and not
accepted by many retail establishments, because the payee has no recourse if
the cc holder refuses to honor the charge. However, if a small establishment
chooses to take the risk and do it for a trusted customer, nobody's going to
come looking for them.
Sionnach
"Marcel Beaudoin" wrote:
> Some stores aren't a good check for that.
Most stores, actually. As someone who worked in retail for many years, and
*always* checked signatures, I remain astounded at how few cashiers are
trained to do so.
> She then checked the signatures to see if they were the
> same...
Oh dear. Reminds me of when I used to get little old ladies at the
bookstore who refused to sign the backs of their credit cards because
"Somebody could steal my cards and forge my signature!". I usually gently
pointed out that if the card was blank, the thief wouldn't have to go to the
bother of FORGING the signature, but instead could sign the card in his/her
own handwriting before going shopping.
Robin
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:b8omvp$c779u$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
> a temporary tag with Izzy's family's address and phone number
> would be a good idea. you can make them yourself at Petsmart
> (it's about the only thing i'm willing to even go in there
> for).
>
I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart. I live in a
metropolitan area of almost half a million, but unfortunately until Petsmart
came along, my only option as far as pet stores was a small family owned
store. They really took advantage of the lack competition to overprice
items and cut selection. I love to go to Petsmart. It's the only place in
town that I can buy Nutro, Missing Link, Pet Botanicals, etc. etc. I am
bugged that I still have to go to the other pet store for mice and rats,
since Petsmart makes the moral judgement that they don't want to sell
rodents as food (even though they sell lizards that can eat rodents) But
it's their business, and their call to make.
WhansaMi
>morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
>have bread in the house or anything.
ROFL! Our dogs share a slice of bread at night--- "bread time and bedtime!"
Sheila
Tara
> Well, we're long overdue for a vacation (last one was in 1996), and will
> be going to India for 3 weeks.
Kewl. I've always wanted to see India. Please post lots of pictures upon
your return :-)
<snip>
> Lots of extra rawhide. Khan normally goes through about a rawhide a
> week, but has been in a real chewing mood lately. I figured that if we
> leave 6 or 7, it should be fine, assuming that Izzy will eat at least
> one of his.
Maybe buy some extra toys for "the house". Ones that contribute the dogs
playing together. Also some toys that you won't miss if they don't make
it back. I always send Finn to his kennel with a couple of extra fleece
toys. He doesn't play with them often at home, but for those moments
when he *does* et a little lost or stressed, he likes to rip them apart.
> I feel stupid saying this, but Khan gets a slice of bread in the
> morning, so should I leave a loaf with them? It isn't like they won't
> have bread in the house or anything.
Since Its a part of his routine, I think it would be nice to have a loaf
in his "overnight bag".
<snip>>
> We both use the same vet, so no need for vet numbers.
While you don't need to provide a number, something I have fund helpful
when taking care of other's dogs is for the owner to have made
arrangements with the vet for payments (like leaving payment
authorization, or a C.C. number or something). Also make sure you let
the vet know that the people taking care of Khan have full authorization
for whatever procedure needs to be done in the event of an emergency.
I find arrangements like this makes things run more smoothly in the
unlikely event of something bad happening.
> He gets some plain non fat yogurt periodically, to keep him from getting
> gassy. I think that if I present it that way (you choose, gas or a
> little extra work), they won't mind getting him some yogurt. Should I
> leave a container for them?
I would.
> Now the big one. Should I leave a blank check made out to them just in
> case there is an emergency and they need a lot of money to take care of
> him? I don't want to insult them or anything, but this sounds practical
> to me.
Ahh.....that'll teach me to read as I reply :-)
I do think some for of authorization is useful. If you trust the people
at your vet's office, you might just use a C.C. number there. That way,
your friends wion't have to grapple with waiting for funds to become
available if something happens...and you won't have to deal with any
awkwardness in trying to get them to take it in the first place.
Hope any of this helped.
Sounds like such a fun trip!
Tara
> Anything else?
>
> Suja
Rocky
> I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
> I live
> in a metropolitan area of almost half a million, but
> unfortunately until Petsmart came along, my only option as
> far as pet stores was a small family owned store. They
> really took advantage of the lack competition to overprice
> items and cut selection.
I'm glad that I don't live where you are. The Mom'n'Pop pet
supply stores here are the greatest!
Dimpled Chad
> Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
They don't sell Dogs and Cats as far as I know. They do sell fish, rodents,
etc.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"I personally do not value 'customer
testimonials' because they can be
fraudulent or paid endorsements."
Jerry Howe
Melinda Shore
Rocky <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote:
>I'm glad that I don't live where you are. The Mom'n'Pop pet
>supply stores here are the greatest!
Here, too. There's a chain petstore up at the mall, staffed
by bored teenagers with minimal animal experience. The
local feed/petfood store is run by adults and those of who
buy our stuff there establish ongoing relationships with
them. They get to know our pets, we get to know theirs, and
they tell us when there's something they think we'd like to
try and when there's something that's just not right for
us. I really like the small, locally-owned shop.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
"The problem is not with the concern about the Iraq war -- the problem
is the underlying weakness with the economy." Treas. Sec. John Snow
Rocky
>> Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell
>> animals.
>
> They don't sell Dogs and Cats as far as I know. They do
> sell fish, rodents, etc.
Yup, I count those as animals.
TO...@dog-play.com
> On 30 Apr 2003, Rocky opined:
>> Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
> They don't sell Dogs and Cats as far as I know. They do sell fish, rodents,
> etc.
> Chad
I suppose it depends on why we care about the sale of cats and dogs.
Certainly many of the creatures they do sell have at least as much
sentience as dogs and cats. Many of them are raised in conditions
that rival the worst of the mills. They are sold with little thought or
care. They are often treated as living stuffed toys to be used to teach
children lessons. It is not uncommon for parents to allow children to
starve or torture their pets to death in the belief that "well then he'll
learn what happens if he doesn't care for his pets." They view the
hamster, guinea pig and rat as entirely expendable without the least
regard for HOW it lives or dies. I'm not one to say all animals are
equal. But I still want to give due regard to avoiding unnecessary pain
and suffering - something that is not given much attention with the
animals they carry as merchandise. Most farmers raising animals
for food give more regard to avoiding unnecessary pain and suffereing than
the pet trade gives to its stock.
Diane Blackman
Dimpled Chad
> Yup, I count those as animals.
That they are...
Dimpled Chad
I think you are spot on above for the most part. I'd disagree with you on the
idea that "many of the creatures they do sell have at least as much sentience
as dogs and cats," but that doesn't detract from the main point, though I
gather it would enter into the matter somewhat. That care should be given to
avoid unnecessary pain and suffering I agree with.
I don't know nearly enough about the sale of animals outside dogs and cats to
comment intelligently on the rest, which makes good sense, for the most part,
to me, Diane.
Thanks,
Tara
> Dimpled Chad said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>
>>>Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell
>>>animals.
>>
>>They don't sell Dogs and Cats as far as I know. They do
>>sell fish, rodents, etc.
>
>
> Yup, I count those as animals.
Yup.
And since a dear friend of mine does exotic animal rescue I ca attest to
the fact that they are dumped at even a greater rate than dogs and cats.
And they're also the product of mills, likely as not.
Tara
Robin
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b8q10b$rac$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <Xns936DCD177C54Baustralianshepherdca@IP>,
> Rocky <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote:
> >I'm glad that I don't live where you are. The Mom'n'Pop pet
> >supply stores here are the greatest!
>
> Here, too. There's a chain petstore up at the mall, staffed
> by bored teenagers with minimal animal experience. The
> local feed/petfood store is run by adults and those of who
> buy our stuff there establish ongoing relationships with
> them. They get to know our pets, we get to know theirs, and
> they tell us when there's something they think we'd like to
> try and when there's something that's just not right for
> us. I really like the small, locally-owned shop.
> --
At the Petsmart here, we walk in the door and the cashier says "Hi Annie"
and gives her a bone. They don't know me, but they sure know my dog. The
staff has always been both friendly and knowledgable. Maybe that's just
my Petsmart.
Robin
http://community.webshots.com/album/67771168NDiBDq
Robin
"Tara" <tara....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3EB09397...@verizon.net...
> And since a dear friend of mine does exotic animal rescue I ca attest to
> the fact that they are dumped at even a greater rate than dogs and cats.
> And they're also the product of mills, likely as not.
>
> Tara
>
I don't know if that is true. I would say that they rate they get dumped at
would be no greater than the rate of many fad breeds of dogs like pit bulls.
Irresponsible people get ALL types of pets. Also, I've known many reptile
breeders, almost all have been immaculate in their husbandry. With most
exotics you have to be. The animals have to be in top health. The
temperature has to be just right, the lighting has to be just right, the
diet has to be just right. You have to adjust temperature and diet to
induce breeding season. And the temperature and lighting needs are
different from breed to breed. Not that proper dog breeding is a walk in the
park, but breeding exotics is DEFINITELY not a walk in the park. I have
been a member of my local hepetological society for many years. I have
taken my reptiles to do educational displays from kindegarten to 12th. Who
knows, maybe educating the children, and allowing them to see the animals at
an early age will help them develope an appreciation that may save some
habitats in the future. As with any pet, education is the key.
Emily Carroll
at a rate similar to dogs. You just don't see them in rescue because they
get given away much easier. (i.e. snake food.)
--
Emily Carroll
http://www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes/index.html
I collect My Little Ponies!
"Robin" <robina...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CX0sa.155529$Si4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/25/2003
shelly
GMT
in message VMXra.439834$Zo.101555@sccrnsc03:
> I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
as Matt said, they sell animals. my local pet supply shop
does not. i'm also not a big fan of huge corporations. i'm
lucky enough to be able to shop almost exclusively at mom and
pop shops.
> I live
> in a metropolitan area of almost half a million, but
> unfortunately until Petsmart came along, my only option as
> far as pet stores was a small family owned store. They
> really took advantage of the lack competition to overprice
> items and cut selection.
that really sucks. i live in a very rural area, but work in
the next county, which has a really wonderful mom and pop pet
supply shop. they sell no animals and carry a good variety of
products (including Natura foods, yay!). their prices are
almost always *better* than Petsmart, surprisingly. they're
also extremely sensitive to customers' requests. whenever
i've asked for a product, they've begun carrying it for me.
and, it's nice to go into a shop and be remembered.
> But it's their business, and their call to make.
yep, it is. and i make it my business not to shop there
because they carry those animals.
shelly
2003 00:32:55 -0400
in message b8q81p$20j7$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu:
> Exotics doesn't just include herps, though. Rats & guinea
> pigs are dumped at a rate similar to dogs.
yep, and rabbits and ferrets.
> You just don't
> see them in rescue because they get given away much easier.
> (i.e. snake food.)
ugh. that's a *horrible* thing to do to a pet.
shelly
22:32:43 -0400
in message b8q10b$rac$1...@panix2.panix.com:
> Here, too. There's a chain petstore up at the mall, staffed
> by bored teenagers with minimal animal experience.
which is understandable. to them, it's a J-O-B, not a labor
of love.
> They get to know our pets, we get to know theirs, and
> they tell us when there's something they think we'd like to
> try and when there's something that's just not right for
> us. I really like the small, locally-owned shop.
exactly! "my" shop is really good about adding products that
i ask for. and, since they know me and my dogs, they often
recommend alternate products they think might work better.
they have yet to steer me wrong.
Robin
> > You just don't
> > see them in rescue because they get given away much easier.
> > (i.e. snake food.)
>
> ugh. that's a *horrible* thing to do to a pet.
>
> shelly (vicious Klingon tart) and elliott & harriet
> http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
>
>
Snakes have to eat too. Are your dogs vegetarians?
shelly
GMT
in message 259sa.159943$Si4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net:
> "shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:> b8r1aa$cjh4h$2...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
>
>> ugh. that's a *horrible* thing to do to a pet.
>
> Snakes have to eat too. Are your dogs vegetarians?
A) you're making a huge leap in logic.
B) note the word *pet*.
i feel that animals that were raised as pets ought not to made
into food just because they had the misfortune of becoming
inconvenient for their owners. i think that if you take an
animal into your home with the intent of making a pet of it,
you have a moral obligation not to eat it or allow another
animal to eat it. i consider that a breaking of a sacred
trust. YMMV.
what i did not say was that i think it's wrong for animals to
eat other animals. i'm pretty sure i've never made any such
statement.
Suja
> Kewl. I've always wanted to see India. Please post lots of pictures upon
> your return :-)
I'm going to just hang out and laze around. We'll see about pictures,
but I'm already feeling too lazy.
> Maybe buy some extra toys for "the house". Ones that contribute the dogs
> playing together. Also some toys that you won't miss if they don't make
> it back. I always send Finn to his kennel with a couple of extra fleece
> toys. He doesn't play with them often at home, but for those moments
> when he *does* et a little lost or stressed, he likes to rip them apart.
Khan doesn't play with toys, at least not unless he is really enticed
into it. And, Izzy kills toys. And eats them. The only thing she is
allowed to have in the house is a kong, and another kong product (more
spherical). She hasn't quite managed to kill those, although she is
rarely left alone with them.
> I do think some for of authorization is useful. If you trust the people
> at your vet's office, you might just use a C.C. number there. That way,
> your friends wion't have to grapple with waiting for funds to become
> available if something happens...and you won't have to deal with any
> awkwardness in trying to get them to take it in the first place.
Done. I told them about it, and I think they were offended. Said
something along the lines of 'We have credit too, you know'. I said
that I had visions of incredibly horrible and expensive stuff happening
(cancer diagnosis, getting hit by a car, etc.) while we were gone and
wouldn't have any peace of mind if I hadn't at least done that. Someone
else chimed in about how her parents spent $25,000 trying to treat their
pet's cancer, and I think they understood.
Although, Steve threatened that I'll come home to a shaved down dog, on
us of course. Whenever Izzy and Khan go out together, he always get the
'Oh, what a handsome dog', and they said that if it happens with any
great frequency while we're gone, we'll come home to a shaved down dog,
just to even the playing field a bit.
Suja
Dimpled Chad
>
> Done. I told them about it, and I think they were offended. Said
> something along the lines of 'We have credit too, you know'. I said
uh huh, but if that's the response, then a check would have elicited the same
response. better to handle it this way in advance then get into the thicket
of what would have happened *had* something happened and *had* they maxed out
their cards. This way is far more convenient and safe for them and for you.
> that I had visions of incredibly horrible and expensive stuff happening
> (cancer diagnosis, getting hit by a car, etc.) while we were gone and
> wouldn't have any peace of mind if I hadn't at least done that. Someone
> else chimed in about how her parents spent $25,000 trying to treat their
> pet's cancer, and I think they understood.
>
*nod* Seem like good folk...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"And in related news, the French have
started calling American Cheeze 'Idiot
Cheeze.'" - Tina Fey, SNL
Suja
> *nod* Seem like good folk...
If I come home to a shaved down Khan....
Suja
Dimpled Chad
> Dimpled Chad wrote:
heh. Right, that's another issue...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"Dogs feel very strongly that they
should always go with you in the car,
in case the need should arise for them
to bark violently at nothing right in
your ear." -Dave Barry
shelly
GMT
in message 3EB12984...@scs.gmu.edu:
> Although, Steve threatened that I'll come home to a shaved
> down dog, on us of course. Whenever Izzy and Khan go out
> together, he always get the 'Oh, what a handsome dog', and
> they said that if it happens with any great frequency while
> we're gone, we'll come home to a shaved down dog, just to
> even the playing field a bit.
that sounds fair to me.
shelly
GMT
in message 3EB12B1C...@scs.gmu.edu:
> Dimpled Chad wrote:
>
>> *nod* Seem like good folk...
>
> If I come home to a shaved down Khan....
if you do, i'll temporarily swap you elliott for Khan. you
have to promise to give elliott back when Khan starts to get
hairy again, though.
Alison Smiley
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
>
> Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
Ditto. I go quite a bit out of my way to patronize stores that don't.
-Alison in OH
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2003, Rocky opined:
>
> > Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
>
> They don't sell Dogs and Cats as far as I know. They do sell fish, rodents,
> etc.
> Chad
>
Chad
Parrots! That is a major endeavor and one must really educate
theirselves to parrot ownership. It is certainly not something
for everyone. They are messy, long lived and very loud.
Lots of work involved, ie cooking for them daily, cleaning
cages daily and much attention. And worst of all they
are selling Macaws and or Amazons. Really not birds
for the typical JQ Public by any stretch of the imagination.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
Indeed. But I really became horrified when they started selling large
parrots. And of course they do sell ferrets in most locations. I know
ferrets are illegal in California so I as sure they don't sell them there.
Petco has the same practices.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
>
> Not shelly, but I don't like Petsmart because they sell animals.
>
Yeah, most importantly Parrots that have a lifespan of
over 50 years typically and they are selling to anyone
with a cc and definitely do not inform the potential
adopters enough. JMO
Gwen
Alison Smiley
> "Rocky" <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote on 30 Apr 2003 18:35:50
> GMT
> in message Xns936D819E456C8australianshepherdca@IP:
>
> > In the signature area of my last credit card, I wrote "Ask
> > for ID". They ask every time.
>
> that's what Marcel suggested. i think i'm going to try it,
> but since IME cashiers almost *never* turn the card over to
> look at the signature, i don't know how much good that'll do.
This could backfire. At the postoffice they won't accept cards that
haven't been signed. And I have been told that the contract Visa has with
its card-acceptor type folks explicitly states that they may not ask to
check your ID to compare signatures.
-Alison in OH
Suja
> if you do, i'll temporarily swap you elliott for Khan. you
> have to promise to give elliott back when Khan starts to get
> hairy again, though.
Tired of pretending to vacuum?
Actually, we had to shave down a tiny spot on him when he developed a
hot spot where he got his rabies shot. The hair there took forever to
grow back, and looked funny for the longest time. I think that it grew
back at a weird angle or something. It is finally starting to look
normal again.
Suja
Dimpled Chad
> Chad
> Parrots! That is a major endeavor and one must really educate
> theirselves to parrot ownership. It is certainly not something
> for everyone
Thinking back to the last time I was in a petsmart (sometime early last
year), I guess I do remember that they sold birds. They're not the type of
creature I think would be my kind of companion pet...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
If at first you don't succeed,
skydiving isn't for you.
Dimpled Chad
Why in the world would Visa contract with retailers to *not* check IDs for
this? *boggle*
This actually raises to mind something indirectly related that has begun to
concern me as well: retailer's using those machines that capture your
signature digitally. There's something creepy about giving them my signature
like that...
Gwen Watson
Tara wrote:
>
> And they're also the product of mills, likely as not.
>
> Tara
Absolutely. No good parrot breeder would ever consider
letting Pets Mart or Petco have one of their baby parrots.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
shelly wrote:
Well again I must say my outrage is directed to them at selling
Parrots. An animal that in most cases can live up to 50 years
or more. In the case of blue and gold macaw 75 years. It made
me sick the first time I walked in and saw that.
Gwen
Tara
> "Robin" <robina...@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:05:41
> GMT
> in message VMXra.439834$Zo.101555@sccrnsc03:
>
>
>>I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
>
>
> as Matt said, they sell animals. my local pet supply shop
> does not. i'm also not a big fan of huge corporations. i'm
> lucky enough to be able to shop almost exclusively at mom and
> pop shops.
Exactly.
I used to frequent the big franchise operations (in all categories, not
just pet supplies) back before they were busy taking over neighborhoods.
At this point though I've seen too many Mom and Pop operations go under
only to be replaced by yet another mega chain store. Now, I won't even
buy off the internet unless I can't find it locally. And I've found (in
NYC) that once the chain stores get rid of most of the area competition,
their prices rise to become comparable to what existed before they
arrived. Personally, I'll spend the extra dollar or two to contribute to
my sense of friendship and community. I used to think I couldn't afford
it, but after having seen neighborhoods become nothing but price war
fodder between competing drug store chains I gladly give my money to
local shops before setting foot in a chain.
(The Backstory: a local grocer who had been in business for decades
closed because a mega store opened up. A big chain drug store moved into
the location. The remaining grocery store's profits weren't what they'd
hoped (it was a poor neighborhood), so after another 6 months they
closed down that location. It was just a corporate "business move", but
it left those people with no food stores in the area. At the time there
was a huge citywide corporate battle going on between two rival drug
stores. So guess what moved into the now empty mega food store. The
resulting price wars closed down a local pharmacy that had been around
for a couple of generations. I used to use them when I was in college
and was in the area a lot. They were awesome. But they closed because so
much of their business was being bled off. Last I heard, one of the drug
stores had closed, and the remaining one was returning to the old....and
higher....pricing. So the neighborhood *used* to have a friendly local
grocer and a friendly local pharmacy. Now they have no grocer in the
area at all, and a conglomerate drug store that hires sullen minimum
wage employees who really have no interest in the community. It totally
sucks.
>>I live
>>in a metropolitan area of almost half a million, but
>>unfortunately until Petsmart came along, my only option as
>>far as pet stores was a small family owned store. They
>>really took advantage of the lack competition to overprice
>>items and cut selection.
>
>
> that really sucks. i live in a very rural area, but work in
> the next county, which has a really wonderful mom and pop pet
> supply shop. they sell no animals and carry a good variety of
> products (including Natura foods, yay!). their prices are
> almost always *better* than Petsmart, surprisingly. they're
> also extremely sensitive to customers' requests. whenever
> i've asked for a product, they've begun carrying it for me.
> and, it's nice to go into a shop and be remembered.
I live in an incredibly MEtropolitan area, and while most of the Mom and
Pop pet supply shops are more expensive than the chain stores, I find
that the knowledge base is (depending on the store of course)
invaluable. The selection, ironically, can't even be compared to the big
chain stores. I walk into a chain store and I can barely find *anything*
useful. And what I do find useful, I can find more easily and with less
stress at my local stores. I also have a relationship with my local
stores. No matter how often I went, there was so much turnover (and so
little education) in the mega stores, that a long-standing relationship
(I'm talking over 10 years) is just not possible.
Makes a big difference, in my book.
For me, this is where that phrase "penny wise, but pound foolish" is
really relevant.
>>But it's their business, and their call to make.
>
>
> yep, it is. and i make it my business not to shop there
> because they carry those animals.
Me neither. Truth be told, I'd likely not do business there even if
they *didn't* sell animals though. See wordy precaffeinated explanation
above :-)
Tara
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
> On 01 May 2003, Gwen Watson opined:
>
> > Chad
> > Parrots! That is a major endeavor and one must really educate
> > theirselves to parrot ownership. It is certainly not something
> > for everyone
>
> Thinking back to the last time I was in a petsmart (sometime early last
> year), I guess I do remember that they sold birds. They're not the type of
> creature I think would be my kind of companion pet...
>
Indeed but their popularity has risen to the third most kept companion animal
in US. And most of the time the people that obtain them keep them a year
or two.:((( Very sad as they are extremely sensitive and extremely
intelligent.
Actually much more so than a dog, at least the larger versions, ie Macaw,
Greys, Amazons and Cockatoos. I haven't seen any toos in there thank goodness
for that. I believe it would absolutely turn my stomach if I did.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Tara wrote:
>
>
> I live in an incredibly MEtropolitan area, and while most of the Mom and
> Pop pet supply shops are more expensive than the chain stores, I find
> that the knowledge base is (depending on the store of course)
> invaluable. The selection, ironically, can't even be compared to the big
> chain stores. I walk into a chain store and I can barely find *anything*
> useful. And what I do find useful, I can find more easily and with less
> stress at my local stores. I also have a relationship with my local
> stores. No matter how often I went, there was so much turnover (and so
> little education) in the mega stores, that a long-standing relationship
> (I'm talking over 10 years) is just not possible.
>
Here, here Tara. Yep I do have issues with some of the major chains.
One of them being Home Depot though I can't imagine living without
it, but they are taking over every tree and every piece of land available.
It almost makes me sick.
And no you can't find anything in those stores most of the time
unless you are looking for paint of lighting. Everything else
you wonder around for 30 minutes trying to find what you
went there to get. Or at least I do but that may be my ADHD
and I become so overwhelmed by everything there I sort of
am lost.
Gwen
Rocky
> At the Petsmart here, we walk in the door and the cashier
> says "Hi Annie" and gives her a bone. They don't know me,
> but they sure know my dog. The staff has always been both
> friendly and knowledgable. Maybe that's just my
> Petsmart.
I don't understand your point. What does the friendliness and
knowledge of the staff have to do with Petsmart selling animals?
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
> This actually raises to mind something indirectly related
> that has begun to concern me as well: retailer's using
> those machines that capture your signature digitally.
> There's something creepy about giving them my signature
> like that...
Those things are so cumbersome to sign that the signature they
capture bears little resemblance to my "real" one.
Gwen Watson
Rocky wrote:
That is true but I see Chad's point as well. Now I really don't
want to go to Home Depot anymore.
Gwen
Dimpled Chad
IME the boxes vary in quality. Sometimes the display is hard to see and the
styli (is that the correct plural of stylus?) are hard to use, and othertimes
they screen is bright and the styli quite functional. The use of the
signatures vary too: sometimes they are printed on the reciept (and the
quality of the printoff might differ from the quality of the capture file,
too), and sometimes they aren't.
I guess I don't know why they want to keep my signature, and it kinda freaks
me out a bit. I tend not to give my SSN unless I have to, and while more
retailers these days are asking for my phone number I decline. Its hard to
decline these digital signature machines though.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
Famous Last Words: 'This should be
easy...'
Alison Smiley
> On 01 May 2003, Alison Smiley opined:
>
> > This could backfire. At the postoffice they won't accept cards that
> > haven't been signed. And I have been told that the contract Visa has with
> > its card-acceptor type folks explicitly states that they may not ask to
> > check your ID to compare signatures.
> > -Alison in OH
> >
>
> Why in the world would Visa contract with retailers to *not* check IDs for
> this? *boggle*
>
> This actually raises to mind something indirectly related that has begun to
> concern me as well: retailer's using those machines that capture your
> signature digitally. There's something creepy about giving them my signature
> like that...
It seems weird to me too, it was a friend who used to work in retail that
told me this. I can only guess why there would be such a policy. On the
one hand, it gives a person a bit of piece of mind to know that anyone who
tries to use their card is going to get the third degree. But on the other
hand, it makes the honest customer feel like a criminal to be scrutinized
that way. And what happens if the cashier decides you don't look enough
like your driver's license that day? Visa's out a sale.
When you go to Home Depot to return something that you bought, you don't
even have to give them the credit card to put the reversed-charge-credit
onto. They've got it stored. I find that very creepy.
-Alison in OH
Robin
> i feel that animals that were raised as pets ought not to made
> into food just because they had the misfortune of becoming
> inconvenient for their owners. i think that if you take an
> animal into your home with the intent of making a pet of it,
> you have a moral obligation not to eat it or allow another
> animal to eat it. i consider that a breaking of a sacred
> trust. YMMV.
>
> what i did not say was that i think it's wrong for animals to
> eat other animals. i'm pretty sure i've never made any such
> statement.
>
> shelly (vicious Klingon tart) and elliott & harriet
> http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
OK. I get your point and I agree with it. I read your OP and
responded too quickly. I would never feed a PET to any of my animals.
Of course this would also depend on your definition of pet. A few
species of snake will fast around their usual breeding season,
especially ball pythons. I have had rodents that I have kept, fed and
cared for, for months end up as food. That is the purpose for which I
acquired them, and that is the end they met, with an unplanned delay.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions. If you think owning certain breeds
of dogs is controversial, try owning reptiles! LOL You get put on the
defensive on a regular basis. At least I do, because I believe in
public education. My herps have gone to schools for educational
displays, for several years in a row I took them to the fair to
display them for the entire to weeks of the fair. About the 3,000th
time I heard "only good snake is a dead snake" I actually looked up
at the gentleman in the skoal baseball cap and replied "only good
redneck is a dead redneck" Some people can be educated, others are
better ignored.
Sionnach
"Dimpled Chad" opined:
>I'd disagree with you on the
> idea that "many of the creatures they do sell have at least as much
sentience
> as dogs and cats,"
Hmm. I gather from this statement that you've never actually lived with a
rabbit, a rat, or any parrot-type bird, including budgies aka parakeets?
Animals that were kept in cages 99% of the time and not interacted with
don't count, btw- that's not *living with*, that's keeping a captive.
Dimpled Chad
You would be gathering in complete speculation, since my statement has
nothing to do with that. But, FWIW, it would be partially true and partially
untrue; I've lived with rabbits and some mice.
The brunt of my statement was to disagree that all animals (or "many" of
those sold at petsmart) have the same "ammount" of sentience, nothing more or
less. I don't believe that they do, though I believe all animals to have
sentience in greater or lesser degrees of sense perception and consciousness.
As I see it, that judgment has little to do with being caged or not; it has
to do with the makeup and functioning of the animal in question. Fish have
less sentience than rats, for instance. I tend to think that dogs and cats
are very very high on the sentience ladder; hermit crabs, OTOH, are fairly
low.
I've no reason to think that many birds aren't high on that ladder. I'm not
quite sure where rabbits or rats would fall.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a
quickly vanishing look of amazed
contempt, and I am convinced that
basically dogs think humans are nuts."
- John Steinbeck
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
> I've no reason to think that many birds aren't high on that ladder.
Ummmmmmmm I gather you had not read about Dr. Irene Pepperberg
and her longterm studies with Alex the African Grey Parrot at Arizona
University? If so I know for certain you would not even have a shadow
of a doubt.
http://www.alexfoundation.org/
http://www.alexfoundation.org/research/index.html
http://www.alexfoundation.org/research/articles/harvard/harvard.html
Description and Implication of the Results
The results obtained with these techniques are striking (1990b, 1990c). Alex has
mastered tasks once thought to be beyond the
capacity of all but humans or certain nonhuman primates. Not only can he produce
and comprehend English labels, but he also
understands concepts of category, "same/different", absence, quantity, and size.
Alex has learned over 40 object labels: paper, key, nut, wood, wheat, truck, hide
(rawhide chips), peg wood (clothes pins), grain,
cork, corn, walnut, block, box, showah (shower), banana, pasta, gym, cracker,
scraper (nail file), popcorn, chain, kiwi, shoulder,
rock (a lava stone beak conditioner), carrot, gravel, cup, citrus, back, chair,
chalk, water, nail, grape, grate, treat, cherry, wool,
green bean, and banerry (apple). We have tentative evidence for labels such as
bread and jacks. He has functional use of "no",
phrases such as "come here", "I want X", and "Wanna go Y" where X and Y are
appropriate labels for objects or locations.
He has also acquired attribute labels. He can identify 7 colors, rose (red),
blue, green, yellow, orange, grey, and purple. He labels 5
different shapes as 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, or 6-cornered objects. He uses "two",
"three", "four", "five", and "sih" (six) to distinguish quantities
of objects, including groups of novel items, heterogeneous collections, and sets
in which objects are randomly arrayed. He combines
attribute and object labels to identify proficiently, request, refuse,
categorize, and quantify over 100 different objects, including those
that vary from training exemplars. His accuracy averages approximately 80% on
tests of these abilities.
Alex comprehends a limited concept of "category". He has learned not only that
"green", for example, is one instance of the category
"color", but also that, for a particularly colored and shaped object, "green" and
"3-corner" represent two different categories of its
markable attributes. Thus he categorizes such objects with respect to either
attribute based on our vocal query of "What color?" or
"What shape?" Because the same exemplar can be the subject of shape and color
queries at different times, Alex must be able to
change his basis for classification. Such ability to "reclassify" is thought to
indicate the presence of "abstract aptitude".
Alex has also learned abstract concepts of "same", "different", and to respond
vocally to the presence or absence of information
about these concepts. Thus when shown two identical objects or ones that vary
with respect to some or all of the attributes of color,
shape, and material, Alex responds with the appropriate category label as to
which attribute is "same" or "different" for any
combination; if, however, nothing is same or different, he replies "none". He
responds accurately to objects, colors, shapes, and
materials not used in training, including those for which he has no labels.
Furthermore, he is indeed responding to the specific
questions, and not merely on the basis of his training and the physical
attributes of the objects: His accuracy was above chance
levels on questions such as "What's same?" for a green wooden triangle and a blue
wooden triangle. If he were ignoring the question
and responding on the basis of his prior training, he would have determined, and
responded with the label for the one anomalous
attribute (in this case, "color"). Instead, he responded appropriately [i.e.,
"shape", though "mah-mah" (matter) would also have been
correct].
We have further data supporting his comprehension skills. Alex was able to view
different collections of 7 exemplars (each
collection chosen from among 100 objects of various combinations of shapes,
colors, and materials), be asked 1 of 4 possible vocal
questions, each of which requested a different type of information (e.g., "What
color is object-X?") about a single object in the
collection, and reply vocally to each question. A correct response indicated that
he understood all the parts of the question and used
these parts to guide the search for the one object in the collection that
provided the requested information. Alex responded with an
accuracy of 81.3%. We also have evidence for comprehension of his own use of
labels: If a trainer incorrectly responds to Alex's
requests (e.g., substitutes an unrequested item), he generally responds (approx.
75% of the time) by saying "No" and repeating the
initial request. Finally, a soon-to-be published manuscript demonstrates that he
comprehends a relative concept: He responds
correctly to questions - asking which of two objects is the bigger or smaller,
and responds "none" if they are of equal size.
These findings have at least two important implications. First, remember that my
training paradigm could be designed only by
integrating results obtained both from birds and humans, in the field and in the
laboratory. Second, the data indicate the existence of
complex cognitive capacities in a species whose brain organization is
considerably different from that of terrestrial and aquatic
mammals. That his abilities are comparable to those of mammals, and that such
capacities have been found in so unexpected a
source, suggests that we must keep our minds open to the capacities of others. At
least that is what I reflect upon when Alex greets
me each day with "Hiyo...come here!"
> I'm not
> quite sure where rabbits or rats would fall.
>
> Chad
Rats are highly intelligent.
Gwen
Sionnach
"Dimpled Chad" opined:
> The brunt of my statement was to disagree that all animals (or "many" of
> those sold at petsmart) have the same "ammount" of sentience, nothing more
or
> less.
Um, Chad? You're disagreeing with something that I didn't see said. The
statement was that "many of the animals they sell have at least as much
sentience as dogs and cats", not "all"; and to me, "as much as" does not
equal "the same as".
Many of the animals PetsMart sells are rats, rabbits, and parrot-type
birds- all of which I believe to have "as much sentience as" dogs and cats.
Your statement read, to me, that you disagreed with the concept that *any*
animals sold at P-mrt are as sentient as dogs and cats.
> As I see it, that judgment has little to do with being caged or not; it
has
> to do with the makeup and functioning of the animal in question.
My point was that if you kept any of those animals in a cage, never
allowed it free access to your house and didn't interact with it (IOW, did
not allow it to be part of your flock or colony, as dogs are allowed to be
part of your pack), you (or anyone keeping them that way) would not have
much opportunity to *observe* their sentience, and the animal would not only
not develop to a normal level but might actually shut down.
To reverse the concept- I bet you know people who keep their dog out in
the back yard 99% of the time, and then complain about how "stupid" the dog
is.
>Fish have
> less sentience than rats, for instance. I tend to think that dogs and cats
> are very very high on the sentience ladder; hermit crabs, OTOH, are fairly
> low.
>
> I've no reason to think that many birds aren't high on that ladder. I'm
not
> quite sure where rabbits or rats would fall.
Having lived with rats, rabbits, and parakeets, I'm quite sure that
they're right up there with dogs and cats.
Dimpled Chad
> Rats are highly intelligent.
Hi Gwen,
As far as I know, sentience != intelligence. Sentience relates to
consciousness and to sensory perception.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
"There is no psychiatrist in the world
like a puppy licking your face." - Ben
Williams
Dimpled Chad
On 01 May 2003, Sionnach opined:
> "Dimpled Chad" opined:
>> The brunt of my statement was to disagree that all animals (or "many"
>> of those sold at petsmart) have the same "ammount" of sentience,
>> nothing more
> or
>> less.
>
> Um, Chad? You're disagreeing with something that I didn't see said.
Okay, that's possible. In the same vein, I think some might be reading into
my posts on this thread much that I've not even broached or impled (caged
verses uncaged animals, for instance). *shrug*
> The
> statement was that "many of the animals they sell have at least as much
> sentience as dogs and cats", not "all";
Fair enough, though we may be disagreeing what 'many' consists of... I've no
way of knowing what you or Diane meant by that. I don't think it matters
much, so long as we get it straight.
Animals are on a scale of sentience (not the same as a scale of intelligence,
I would add, my friend Gwen). I think Cats and Dogs are high there (and I
think most here agree), with quite a few animals below them, some with them,
some surpassing them. I wasn't sure whether or not Diane meant to imply
otherwise; I just objected to my reading of her sentence. Then again, I've
been wrong before.... *smile*
> and to me, "as much as" does not
> equal "the same as".
Clearly, and some of this might be a silly disagreement over what 'many'
means. The original statement was ambiguous itself, and my disagreement with
it made it worse.
> Many of the animals PetsMart sells are rats, rabbits, and parrot-type
> birds- all of which I believe to have "as much sentience as" dogs and
> cats.
Okay, that's fair. I've not made a clear judgment where rats, rabbits, and
parrot-type birds fall, sensory and conscience wise, with dogs and cats. I'm
not sure I agree with you that they have as much sentience as dogs and cats,
though. I'm willing to defer, however, and to admit I'm no expert...
To *me*, many of the animals they sell are fish, reptiles, and crab-like
creatures. These, in my mind, do not have as much sentience as dogs and cats.
This was the context from which I wrote what I did. If 'many' were construed
as you put it, I'd allow for far more latitude....
> Your statement read, to me, that you disagreed with the concept
> that *any* animals sold at P-mrt are as sentient as dogs and cats.
>
No, not at all. I'm willing to entertain the idea that there are animals as
sentient, perhaps more sentitent, than dogs or cats...
>> As I see it, that judgment has little to do with being caged or not; it
> has
>> to do with the makeup and functioning of the animal in question.
>
> My point was that if you kept any of those animals in a cage, never
> allowed it free access to your house and didn't interact with it (IOW,
> did not allow it to be part of your flock or colony, as dogs are allowed
> to be part of your pack), you (or anyone keeping them that way) would
> not have much opportunity to *observe* their sentience, and the animal
> would not only not develop to a normal level but might actually shut
> down.
I think that's a fair hypothesis. I never said anything to the contrary (and
I'm not really sure how you or anyone else thought I might have, really).
Certainly environment can impact functioning of an animal's sensory
perception and/or consciousness.
> To reverse the concept- I bet you know people who keep their dog out
> in
> the back yard 99% of the time, and then complain about how "stupid" the
> dog is.
Yup. Alas, I've got one in the house behind me. Dumb owners...
>
>>Fish have
>> less sentience than rats, for instance. I tend to think that dogs and
>> cats are very very high on the sentience ladder; hermit crabs, OTOH,
>> are fairly low.
>>
>> I've no reason to think that many birds aren't high on that ladder. I'm
> not
>> quite sure where rabbits or rats would fall.
>
> Having lived with rats, rabbits, and parakeets, I'm quite sure that
> they're right up there with dogs and cats.
>
Well, again, I'll defer.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
In time of war the laws are silent. -
Cicero
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
> On 01 May 2003, Gwen Watson opined:
>
> > Rats are highly intelligent.
>
> Hi Gwen,
> As far as I know, sentience != intelligence. Sentience relates to
> consciousness and to sensory perception.
>
> Chad
>
Exactly. But did you read the articles about Alex. And Alex is just
one of many parrots. Parakeets are much more intelligent of have
very much sentience. Much more than most people even begin
to realize. They are one of the top ten talkers. At one time
talking was believed to be just mimicing. It is now known
that it isn't just mimicing and they actually do understand
and commicate with proper use of wording.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Sionnach wrote:
>
>
> Having lived with rats, rabbits, and parakeets, I'm quite sure that
> they're right up there with dogs and cats.
Absolutely.
Gwen
Dimpled Chad
> Exactly. But did you read the articles about Alex. And Alex is just
> one of many parrots. Parakeets are much more intelligent of have
> very much sentience. Much more than most people even begin
> to realize. They are one of the top ten talkers. At one time
> talking was believed to be just mimicing. It is now known
> that it isn't just mimicing and they actually do understand
> and commicate with proper use of wording.
>
Hi Gwen,
I started, and will finish just after I finish posting here. I don't doubt
that parrots are highly intelligent. Check my post to Sarah, which explains
(I think) where I'm coming from. I think the scale of sentience (tricky as it
is) may or may not put parrots or other similar birds at a similarly high
level as dogs and cats (I dunno, really). I'm willing to read and take the
evidence of those who work and know them to heart, though...
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
Famous last words - You and what army?
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
> Hi Gwen,
> I started, and will finish just after I finish posting here. I don't doubt
> that parrots are highly intelligent. Check my post to Sarah, which explains
> (I think) where I'm coming from. I think the scale of sentience (tricky as it
> is) may or may not put parrots or other similar birds at a similarly high
> level as dogs and cats (I dunno, really). I'm willing to read and take the
> evidence of those who work and know them to heart, though...
>
HI Chad*smile*
I did read your message to Sarah. I am not sure what you are saying about
sentience not being as high as a dog or cat.
Parrots are extremely emotional and very attached to their owners.
They not only love them they often do not let others touch them.
Changing a mere toy in the cage of an African Grey or
a Blue and gold will often set them into shivering on the other
side of the cage just like changes in enviroment of a two year
old child will set them off. In fact one can not even change them
into a new cage without introducing it very slowly, typically several
weeks of slow introduction.
I have not seen this with dogs or cats. In fact how many posters
here talk about how happily their dogs go to boarding. This type
of change can be extremely tramatic for the larger parrots. However
one does not often see this in keets or tiels.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Dimpled Chad wrote:
>
>
> Okay, that's possible. In the same vein, I think some might be reading into
> my posts on this thread much that I've not even broached or impled (caged
> verses uncaged animals, for instance). *shrug*
Well that is not what I am seeing or thinking you are implying at all.
>
>
> > The
> > statement was that "many of the animals they sell have at least as much
> > sentience as dogs and cats", not "all";
>
> Fair enough, though we may be disagreeing what 'many' consists of... I've no
> way of knowing what you or Diane meant by that. I don't think it matters
> much, so long as we get it straight.
>
> Animals are on a scale of sentience (not the same as a scale of intelligence,
> I would add, my friend Gwen). I think Cats and Dogs are high there (and I
> think most here agree), with quite a few animals below them, some with them,
> some surpassing them.
True but one of the problems is Pets Mart does not discriminate who is
or isn't purchasing these animals no matter what level they are. As long
as you got the $$ you have the animal. Another major factor is these
animals for the most part are coming from "mills" be it Parrot mills,
bunny mills or rat mills to me they are all the same. Inhumane conditions
in which the seller of these makes a profit without regard for the health
or care of said animals.
> I wasn't sure whether or not Diane meant to imply
> otherwise; I just objected to my reading of her sentence. Then again, I've
> been wrong before.... *smile*
I think I must have missed this.
>
>
> > and to me, "as much as" does not
> > equal "the same as".
>
> Clearly, and some of this might be a silly disagreement over what 'many'
> means. The original statement was ambiguous itself, and my disagreement with
> it made it worse.
Again I am a bit confused as to what you are referencing here. While I agree
hermit crabs may not be that big of deal Pets Mart has incorporated way
to many types of animals IMO. And again most of them are coming
from a "mill" mentality type breeder. In it for the $$$ and hasn't a care
in the world what happens to the animals thereafter.
>
>
> > Many of the animals PetsMart sells are rats, rabbits, and parrot-type
> > birds- all of which I believe to have "as much sentience as" dogs and
> > cats.
>
> Okay, that's fair. I've not made a clear judgment where rats, rabbits, and
> parrot-type birds fall, sensory and conscience wise, with dogs and cats. I'm
> not sure I agree with you that they have as much sentience as dogs and cats,
> though. I'm willing to defer, however, and to admit I'm no expert...
I for one know beyond a shadow of a doubt that parrots do. I also
believe that rats do as well. Whether rabbits do or not is not
that relevant to me. What is relevant is where they are coming
from and what people are supporting, ie "mill" enviroment when
obtaining a companion from Pets Mart or Petco. JMO
>
>
> To *me*, many of the animals they sell are fish, reptiles, and crab-like
> creatures. These, in my mind, do not have as much sentience as dogs and cats.
> This was the context from which I wrote what I did. If 'many' were construed
> as you put it, I'd allow for far more latitude....
I can agree with this. Though again Iguana are probably much more
sentient than you may realize.
>
>
> snipped:
>
>
>
>
> >>Fish have
> >> less sentience than rats, for instance. I tend to think that dogs and
> >> cats are very very high on the sentience ladder; hermit crabs, OTOH,
> >> are fairly low.
> >>
> >> I've no reason to think that many birds aren't high on that ladder. I'm
> > not
> >> quite sure where rabbits or rats would fall.
> >
> > Having lived with rats, rabbits, and parakeets, I'm quite sure that
> > they're right up there with dogs and cats.
> >
>
> Well, again, I'll defer.
>
With which animal do you defer?
Gwen
Dimpled Chad
bit. Sorry if it comes through twice...
--------------
>> Your statement read, to me, that you disagreed with the concept
>> that *any* animals sold at P-mrt are as sentient as dogs and cats.
>>
>No, not at all. I'm willing to entertain the idea that there are animals as
>sentient, perhaps more sentitent, than dogs or cats...
I re-read my earlier post, and can clearly see how I left that impression.
Diane said "many of the creatures they do sell have at least as much
sentience..." I said that I disagree, which could suggest that I either think
*few* are as sentient or *none* are as sentient. I don't think that either
are the case. 'Many' is a broad category, can be understood ambigously (types
vs. quantity) and regardless I applied it wrong.
My bad.
Sorry about that misperception. Many means more than a few, not most. We can
quibble about the numbers, but I had a different subset in mind (again, fish,
crabs, etc...) When I think petsmart sales of animals, the image in my mind
is fish, crabs, reptiles. I do not believe these are as sentient as dogs and
cats. I know that they sell birds and rodents and other creatures, but for
some reason (perhaps sheer ignorance) these aren't part of the 'most'
category in my brane.
That's not what she said (many, not most), so sorry about that. I'm usually
better at reading comprehension than I've displayed here.
I actually have my questions about how the sensory perception and the
consciousness of rodents and birds compare with dogs and cats, and I think
there quite probably is a vast degree of difference within those broad
categories. I'm willing to assume they're close, and that some of them
conceivably can surpass cats and dogs. I'm not ready to assume that they do,
however.
My main point was to argue that there are degrees of sentience. No one
disputes that really, so far as I can tell. I'm not even sure why exactly it
applies here, as the real issue is whether petsmart prevents unnecessarys
suffering of the animals it sells.
Chad
I hope I've cleared everything up sufficiently...
Chad
Dimpled Chad
>> that *any* animals sold at P-mrt are as sentient as dogs and cats.
>>
>No, not at all. I'm willing to entertain the idea that there are animals as
>sentient, perhaps more sentitent, than dogs or cats...
I re-read my earlier post, and can clearly see how I left that impression.
Stafford A. Rau
> Animals are on a scale of sentience (not the same as a scale of intelligence,
> I would add, my friend Gwen). I think Cats and Dogs are high there (and I
> think most here agree), with quite a few animals below them, some with them,
> some surpassing them. I wasn't sure whether or not Diane meant to imply
> otherwise; I just objected to my reading of her sentence. Then again, I've
> been wrong before.... *smile*
Chad -
Forgive me if this has been broached previously as I haven't completely
kept up with this thread, but in this case how are we defining sentience
and intelligence, and in particular what do you think is the difference?
Would intelligence cover simple problem-solving skills, like pattern
matching, where as sentience might be the awareness of the borders
between self and environment, and perhaps past, present, and future?
I realise a full-blown discussion of the nature of intelligence and
sentience could occupy a lifetime of study, but for our purposes here,
how do you see the difference?
Thanks,
--
Stafford A. Rau
<raudog> <@> <rauhaus.org>
Dimpled Chad
>>
>> Animals are on a scale of sentience (not the same as a scale of
>> intelligence, I would add, my friend Gwen). I think Cats and Dogs are
>> high there (and I think most here agree), with quite a few animals
>> below them, some with them, some surpassing them.
>
> True but one of the problems is Pets Mart does not discriminate who is
> or isn't purchasing these animals no matter what level they are. As long
> as you got the $$ you have the animal. Another major factor is these
> animals for the most part are coming from "mills" be it Parrot mills,
> bunny mills or rat mills to me they are all the same. Inhumane
> conditions in which the seller of these makes a profit without regard
> for the health or care of said animals.
Right, but that's a whole different matter. I think Diane was spot on with
that concern. (I said as much way back when)...
>
>> I wasn't sure whether or not Diane meant to imply
>> otherwise; I just objected to my reading of her sentence. Then again,
>> I've been wrong before.... *smile*
>
> I think I must have missed this.
My brane's in a rut today; sorry. I tried once again a second ago. I'll try
again here, but then I'm going to stop.
>>
>> Clearly, and some of this might be a silly disagreement over what
>> 'many' means. The original statement was ambiguous itself, and my
>> disagreement with it made it worse.
>
> Again I am a bit confused as to what you are referencing here.
In short, petsmart sells lots of different animals: fish, crabs, reptiles,
rodents and other small creatures, birds. I thought Diane was saying that
*most* of these creatures have the same sensory and consciousness capacities
as dogs and cats, and I disagreed. She didn't say that (she said many do, and
we can quibble about what that means, but I'll concede that some might and
that's good enough for me). I read it wrong.
> While I
> agree hermit crabs may not be that big of deal Pets Mart has
> incorporated way to many types of animals IMO. And again most of them
> are coming from a "mill" mentality type breeder. In it for the $$$ and
> hasn't a care in the world what happens to the animals thereafter.
Right. Again, I think Diane is spot on.
>
> I for one know beyond a shadow of a doubt that parrots do. I also
> believe that rats do as well. Whether rabbits do or not is not
> that relevant to me. What is relevant is where they are coming
> from and what people are supporting, ie "mill" enviroment when
> obtaining a companion from Pets Mart or Petco. JMO
I can tell that you believe parrots do. The relative merits of that question
seems academic to me; I think they've a high degree of sentience. Where
exactly they fall, above, below, whatever, and in which sensory perceptions
(taste, touch, smell, sight, hearing) and in which areas of consciousness
doesn't seem to matter much. The same with rats, though the evidence doesn't
seem to be as strong.
Again, I think Diane was right with the mill issue. Always did.
>
> I can agree with this. Though again Iguana are probably much more
> sentient than you may realize.
We can agree to disagree; again, its a rough science I gather, and I've no
reason to think that Iquanas don't have their relative strengths...
> With which animal do you defer?
You want exact animals? I'm not sure I'm trying to make definitive statements
in that regard. It should suffice for me to say what I already have, that
animals differ with regard to their sensory function and their individual
scope of consciousness. [This is actually an important philosophical point,
and we can go further and say that there is a germ of elevated sensory
function and consciousness in the most primitve aspects of life, namely
metabolism, found in the most simple of creatures; but that's a digression].
Where exactly certain creatures fall on that scale is a complex question, one
I'm not equipped to answer, but I think observation suggests that some are
clearly high and some are clearly low. Different animals excel in certain
sensory areas and are less capable (depending on your measurement) in others,
which is one of the reasons the question is complacated. If you want to put
parrots and rats high on that scale, okay by me, though I leave the question
open as to their exact location.
I think Fish, Crabs, Reptiles are low (allowing, of course, for some
variability within those broad categories). When I read the thought, *these*
are what I thought were being mentioned. I have repented of that thought
sufficiently well, though, I think.
All of this is somewhat tangental to Diane's original post and my original
response (muddled though that response was). Another question might be to ask
Diane why she thought sentience is relevant to whether or not Petsmart is
wrong in the way it sells animals (something I think we all agree with).
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
A fool and his money are my two
favorite people.
Robin
"Rocky" <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns936E68D745FF3australianshepherdca@IP...
> I don't understand your point. What does the friendliness and
> knowledge of the staff have to do with Petsmart selling animals?
>
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Absolutley nothing; that was not where this tangent originally started.
Below is the post I was responding to, and it has nothing to do with selling
animals. The topic of selling animals came about a post or two later.
> >I'm glad that I don't live where you are. The Mom'n'Pop pet
> >supply stores here are the greatest!
>
> Here, too. There's a chain petstore up at the mall, staffed
> by bored teenagers with minimal animal experience. The
> local feed/petfood store is run by adults and those of who
> buy our stuff there establish ongoing relationships with
> them. They get to know our pets, we get to know theirs, and
> they tell us when there's something they think we'd like to
> try and when there's something that's just not right for
> us. I really like the small, locally-owned shop.
> --
Dimpled Chad
Hi Stafford,
You're trying to get me mired deeper, aren't you! *smile* I've done well
enough muddling things up to here, and now you want definite definitions of
the themes? Heh.
Okay, let me try:
sentience is the quality of being sentient, which means having the capacity
for and functioning in the sensory perception (sight, sound, taste, touch,
smell). Consciousness, built on sensory perception, is the ability of a
creature to assimilate that sense perception into its functioning, with some
degree of awareness of those sense perceptions and of the self that so
senses.
The issue of self-world and of past-present-future is complicated, and I
don't think it falls under the category of sentience per-se, as I think that
these require some symbolic representation of self and other and of past-
present-future that is present in some but not all sentient beings.
Intelligence is built upon sentience, I gather, and is fascility at knowledge
of self and other based upon some such symbolic representation and memory of
the world, themselves built on sensory perception and consciousness.
At least that's where I'm coming from, FWIW.
Chad
--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com
Robin
"Tara" <tara....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3EB1363E...@verizon.net...
> shelly wrote:
> > "Robin" <robina...@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:05:41
> > GMT
> > in message VMXra.439834$Zo.101555@sccrnsc03:
> >
> >
> >>I'm just curious as to why you don't like PetSmart.
> >
> >
> > as Matt said, they sell animals. my local pet supply shop
> > does not. i'm also not a big fan of huge corporations. i'm
> > lucky enough to be able to shop almost exclusively at mom and
> > pop shops.
>
> Exactly.
>
Well this thread has certainly gone off into a couple of tangents I never
anticipated. Truly I was just curious as to why Shelly didn't like
Petsmart. I thought there might be something I didn't know that I should.
In my area, there was really only one choice in pet stores for as long as I
can remember. I've NEVER been pleased with that pet store. The prices
aren't just a little higher, in some cases they are twice as much. I
wouldn't mind paying a little more at a locally owned store, especially if I
felt that part of the extra price was going towards higher pay and better
benefits for it's employees, but in this case I know they aren't. It's
going right in the owners' pockets. Petsmart came along, with a much better
selection of merchandise, better prices, and friendlier more knowledgeable
staff; so the choice was really easy. Both stores sell animals, so that was
never an issue.
There is a new store in town that I have heard great things about. It is
owned by a lesbian couple, and I definitely support "family" owned
businesses before chains or mom and pops, when I have the oppurtunity. My
mother takes her lab there for agility training, and they have great A/C'd
kennels with huge runs for boarding. Only problem is that it is on the
opposite side of the county from me, about 45 minutes.
Stafford A. Rau
> You're trying to get me mired deeper, aren't you! *smile* I've done well
> enough muddling things up to here, and now you want definite definitions of
> the themes? Heh.
Oh, you betcha! This wasn't at all the case here, but one thing that has
always driven me totally nuts is to listen to an arguement between people
when none of the broad terms being used has been defined.
Vizzini: "Inconceivable!"
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you
think it means."
> sentience is the quality of being sentient, which means having the capacity
> for and functioning in the sensory perception (sight, sound, taste, touch,
> smell). Consciousness, built on sensory perception, is the ability of a
> creature to assimilate that sense perception into its functioning, with some
> degree of awareness of those sense perceptions and of the self that so
> senses.
<snip>
> Intelligence is built upon sentience, I gather, and is fascility at
> knowledge of self and other based upon some such symbolic representation
> and memory of the world, themselves built on sensory perception and
> consciousness.
Ok, so I perhaps had it somewhat backwards. I may have been tainted by
science fiction, as in "Beam me up, Scotty, there's no sentient life
down here."
Thanks much.