E-Collars - with Vibrator?
Lazy Senior
following the "Training collar for a BIG Dog thread". I appreciate the
intellegent comments I got on that thread, the nasty and unkind comments
I just ignored - this is after all usenet.
My dog is a very fun loving energetic Black Lab.
I have decided on a Dogtra brand collar. I just need a little help
deciding which model.
At present I am using a Innotek SD 100 which has a beep function in
adddition to a zapper. I use the beep function regularly to get my dogs
attention while off leash in my back yard. This usually works great
unless the distraction is intense and then I use the zapper.
The Dogtra models do not have a beep function. However some models do
have a vibrator function (called a pager by Dogtra). Has anyone had an
experience with a zapper / vibrator collar. Would the vibrator be
similar in results to the beeper I use on the Innotek?
Or should I just get a zapper only model? The models I am looking at are
the 1200NC and 1200NCP model. They also make a 200NCP model (with the
vibrator). This model is considerably cheaper than the 1200 series. My
concern with this model is does it have as much zapping power as the
1200 series?
I dont want to get a model that is underpowered in the zapper
department. I feel my Innotek is underpowered since my dog ignores all
power settings except #4 which is maximum.
Thanks
Lazy Senior
Gwen Watson
diddy wrote:
>Lazy Senior <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in
>
>
>>I have decided on a Dogtra brand collar. I just need a little help
>>deciding which model.
>>
>>
>>
>Why not techtronics?
>
That's the brand I have always heard was the better.
Gwen
Lazy Senior
> Lazy Senior <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in
>
>>I have decided on a Dogtra brand collar. I just need a little help
>>deciding which model.
>>
>
> Why not techtronics?
I assume you mean Tri-Tronics? I really dont want to spend much more
than $300. Also I want re-chargable batterys in both transmitter and
receiver. I did not find any Tri-Tronic models that fit these criteria.
Lazy Senior
flick
Apparently some people use a vibrating collar to help train them. You might
find useful info on vibrating collars if you did a Google on that. Maybe
"vibrating collar" "+deaf dog" "+training" or some such.
flick 100785
"Lazy Senior" <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:VYY7c.73359$Cb.1000950@attbi_s51...
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J1Boss
>Why not techtronics?
Or even TRITronics. A quality collar, although my Innotek has done fine for my
uses.
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience
J1Boss
>> Apparently some people use a vibrating collar to help train them.
low level stim is useful with deaf dogs as well - the vibration isn't much
different.
sionnach
"Lazy Senior" wrote:
> Has anyone had an
> experience with a zapper / vibrator collar. Would the vibrator be
> similar in results to the beeper I use on the Innotek?
I think that's going to depend on your dog, and possibly on how strong
the vibration is.
The DT Systems collar I use with my JRT has a "pager" function like that;
it works for getting her attention if she's just trotting along doing
nothing, but when she's hunting something she doesn't seem to notice it.
Of course, when she's just trotting along, I don't NEED the pager because
all I have to do is call her; 99.9999 % of the time I don't need the "zap",
either, even when she's hunting.
Since she was already trained to come when called, the only time I use the
collar is if she's heading into danger and is so intent on what she's doing
that she can't hear me.
BTW, beeping collars don't work with her; the beep apparently sounds like
a mouse to her, so she starts hunting around for the source of it. <G>
But getting back to the point... since your dog is already trained to a
beeping collar, and you have no way of knowing if he'll notice or pay
attention to a vibrating collar, my suggestion would be to find a model that
beeps.
>
> I feel my Innotek is underpowered since my dog ignores all
> power settings except #4 which is maximum.
FWIW, I also own a new-model Innotek 300 (the model with the digital
transmitter), which was quite reasonably priced (less than $150), has beep,
continuous, and momentary settings, and goes up to a level 10 (levels are
instantly adjustable from the transmitter). The dog I occasionally use it
with responds to both the beep and to level 1-2 on it; 3-4 is VERY strong
with this collar, and I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with
it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.
J1Boss
>it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.
I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had a pointer ignore a
neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
The Puppy Wizard
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
The Puppy Wizard
the Lab puppy you attacked you wouldn'ta NEEDED
to attack him. Then you wouldn'ta needed to LIE
abHOWET it:
sinofabitch writes:
> >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> >> posts from two different people,
> >> took pieces of them out of context,
> >> cobbled them together,
> >> then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> >>and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> >> Which is exactly what he did.
> >> The actual quote is misleading
> >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
> >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
> >Here's Jerry's version
> > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
> >Here's yours;
> > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > nipped her ear.
> > --Sara Sionnach
Is that the truth or a lie?
"sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qdur$29o9uf$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
The Puppy Wizard
in hearin."
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040323114105...@mb-m28.aol.com...
sionnach
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with
> >it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.
>
> I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had a pointer ignore
a
> neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Hm. Just out of curiosity, under what circumstances, and at what distance?
Personally, I'd be inclined to suspect collar failure if that happened,
especially if the dog was at a distance and/or if there were trees or some
other terrain which could affect range.
Tee
news:Xns94B5776...@216.196.97.132...
> "flick" <fl...@starband.net> wrote in
> news:oGZ7c.1601$oD....@fe25.usenetserver.com:
>
> > I have a deaf Dal here in rescue, and I did some reading on deaf dogs.
> > Apparently some people use a vibrating collar to help train them. You
> > might find useful info on vibrating collars if you did a Google on
> > that. Maybe "vibrating collar" "+deaf dog" "+training" or some such.
> >
> > flick 100785
> >
>
> deafness associated with age.
> The song and dance I do trying to get his attention so that he sees my
hand
> signals suggests that a vibrating collar might be a good thing for him.
> Thanks for talking me into this as a "must buy" when I get the money.
The Innotek vibrating collar is a wonderful tool to have with a deaf dog. I
*so* wanted one with my first deaf foster but couldn't justify spending the
money (all the money was going into the rescue's vet bills). I have
recommended it to adopters of deaf Boxers though and 2 of them have written
to say they bought them & can't imagine living without them. The dogs
respond well to the vibration, do not appear the least agitated by it, and
it is an excellent way of gaining their attention. These 2 particular dogs
are now allowed the freedom of being off-leash in safe areas, with their
owners, because they owners have been able to work on recalls & "watch me"
with the aid of the collar.
--
Tara
The Puppy Wizard
to train a dog even with your pain fear force and
intimidation devices.
"sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
The Puppy Wizard
"Lazy Senior" <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:b9Z7c.73584$Cb.1001490@attbi_s51...
> diddy wrote:
>
> > Lazy Senior <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in
> >
> >>I have decided on a Dogtra brand collar.
An EXXXCELLENT choice. Your dog will LOVE you for it.
> >> I just need a little help
You need a secure mental health care facility
if you're asking HOWER dog lovers for heelp.
> >>deciding which model.
Don't matter.
> > Why not techtronics?
>
> I assume you mean Tri-Tronics?
Is that the brand diddler uses?
> I really dont want to spend much more than $300.
A WIZE idea.
> Also I want re-chargable batterys in both transmitter and
> receiver. I did not find any Tri-Tronic models that fit these
> criteria.
Well, diddler's got LOTS of professional EXXXPERIENCE.
> Lazy Senior
Here's a SAMPLE of the RESULTS of her EXXXPERTISE.
Danny and Taya are diddler's personal dogs:
> Whoops, Danny And Taya run away from unsecured yard and
> imbecile owner. Will they survive life out in the wilderness
> our amongst the coyote traps? Will they get mistaken for
> coyotes and sold to the highest bidder at the fur auction?
> Or will they live again to do a help dummy diddy do a
> demonstration on safe and responsible pet ownership in the
> kitchen with the vet's office kitten?
>
> Stay tuned, fans...
>
> From: Kathy Levee (kle...@zoo.uvm.edu)
> Subject: Off Topic --MISSING DOGS
> Date: 1999/04/14
>
>
> I realize this has absolutely nothing to do with Disney.
> Parks, but since those of us on this newsgroup are from
> all over the country, I thought you would understand this
> one time intrusion. We are desperate to find these
> dogs....Please, if you have any information, contact the
> e-mail address at the bottom of the note. Thank you for
> your understanding.........
>
> Karyl Parks' dog Danny - Ch. Alpha's Decorum (I think that
> is his correct registered name) is missing . For those
> that have never met Danny - he is very special. Both
> trained for Search and Rescue as well as service dog
> trained, CDX, etc. He does all the things that service
> dogs do from opening doors, turning on lights, getting
> clothes and shoes. He is a marvel. He is nine years old
> but does not show his age - he is about 60 pounds 22 1/2
> inches, dark face. By tomorrow I will have a picture
> available.
>
> Monday night he was put out to do his business along with
> Taya another elkie. At 10:00pm - both he and Taya were
> gone from Karyl's yard. She heard nothing and the gate
> was open but opened inward. Danny was neutered in the last
> year so is not of any use to anyone for breeding.
>
> Karyl has handed out over 1,200 flyers today - gone to the
> schools where Danny was well known - he did demonstrations,
> talked to neighbors
>
> and combed the neighborhood. She lives in farm country
> outside Greenville, Ohio.
>
> Danny is a tall elkie - very handsome - microchipped. I
> am looking for a picture I took when he visited here two
> years ago. He was not wearing a collar when lost. Karyl
> will talk to postal workers, garbage truck drivers, county
> road crews, meter readers, tomorrow - has already contacted
> law enforcement and shelters. Please for anyone in the area
> or who can cross post this to other lists do it. This dog
> is Karyl's life and she can not imagine life without him.
>
> Taya - also an elkhound her parents dog - spayed female five
> years old. Small size - I think only about 18 inches. They
> could be together or separate - Taya did have a collar on.
> Do not know if she is microchipped.
>
> Karyl's email is kpa...@bright.net
>
> Thank you for your understanding......we're posting this to
> every list we are involved with and pray for their safe
> return.
>
> Kathy
>
> =================================
> DIDDY ON CATS (shoot, don't trap)
>
> From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: Re: Fur Auction Ohio State Trappers Association
> Xenia Ohio Feb 15 2002
> Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping
> Date: 2002-02-16 12:06:21 PST
>
> ....
>
> If I can get him away from the Olympics, I'll have him
> answer that. He doesn't know how to change the identity on
> the computer, so if "I" answer this post... it's really
> Jeff. And no.... we went to watch. He sold nothing. btw..
> are these "CATS" feral domestic cats? (sorry not familiar
> with Oklahoma) (I just shoot the DSH cats. Jeff caught a
> couple cats last summer while nuisance trapping an orchard,
> but it wasn't intentional)
> --
> diddy
>
>
> BUT IF YOU DO TRAP, DO IT RIGHT (The cat went nuts....they
> weren't supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this
> situation).
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: Re: cats : Crating/Caging: What constitutes abuse?
> Date: 2002-08-23 09:18:08 PST
>
>
> Lyn wrote:
> > > You know I'm a cat abuser because I let my cat out.
> > > Alison
> > Well, it totally depends upon where you live, as to
> > whether or not doing so is in the best interest of your
> > animal. Abuser isn't a term I would use, and I am a "cat
> > group" regular.
>
> Here it would be abuse. If you like your cat you keep it
> home. I run a state authorized and monitored nuisance
> animal trapline. This morning there was a cat in a snare.
> Ordinarily, an animal caught in a snare can be released
> unharmed. One of the animals I am targeting is coyotes
> (and the complaint was that coyotes were killing area cats)
> Duh.. If your cats are becoming lunch for wild animals, to
> me .. It makes sense to keep your cats in where they can't
> become lunch.. whatever.
>
> Regarding this cat in the snare. It went nuts. It leaped,
> and tangled itself, and most certainly strangulated it's
> intestines. It had the snare pulled tight down to the
> diameter of a dime (just large enough to encircle the
> spine) around the waist area. This cats snarled, and
> attacked. Trying to extricate this cat was exceedingly
> difficult, not to mention dangerous. Because I feared
> damage to the intestines and death of the gut, I imagined
> this cat was not likely to survive. It would have
> been much simpler to dispatch the unfortunate cat and take
> out the dead body. Instead, this cat wore a collar. it
> deserved a chance, and the owner deserved closure. (no id
> on the collar) . It escaped, just as I released it and it
> couldn't be taken to the vet for examination. I will
> probably never know if this particular cat survives the
> experience or not.
>
> People in the area were aware that trapping was being
> done and apparently still let their cats run free, both
> endangered by the traps and by the coyotes being targeted
> that are causing a problem with their cat population.
> Had that cat not been wearing a collar, I would not have
> tried to release this hostile cat. Releasing it may not have
> been a kindness, but then... cats weren't supposed to be
> attracted to this type of trap, in this position, and then
> they weren't supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this
> situation. If you like your pet, you keep them home.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: Re: What would you do in this situation?
> Date: 2002-05-31 14:49:22 PST
>
> Actually, I borrowed the vets office kitten once for a
> couple days for school education on pet care and safe
> handling as well as responsible pet ownership.
>
> I kept the kitten over night in a crate within a crate
> and yet my dog (yes, Angelic Danny, as well as Taya
> and Toby tore that kittne to threads from between the
> crate bars. (apparently he stuck his paws through the
> crate to bat at the dogs. I was out doing yard work
> and rushed in to find the little kittens pieces and
> parts being torn through by ALL the dogs.
>
> I called my girl friend to come get my dogs. I screamed
> displeasure, and stalked out with the kitten. Danny, et
> al spent 3 days in a kennel until I finally felt like I
> could interact with them without doing bodily harm. All
> three dogs were never touched, but knew they had done
> something so unspeakable that I wouldn't associate with
> them and they got banished.
>
> To this day, Taya (mom and Dad's dog) and Danny will not
> look at a cat. When confronted with one, Danny wees
> himself and cowers hiding behind me for help. I'm not
> saying this would work this way with all dogs, But mom
> and dad now have a house cat, and she has never been
> harmed by any of the dogs. Danny is there all the time,
> unsupervised, and has no interest in harming the cat.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: Oh My God
> Date: 2002-01-16 13:39:59 PST
>
> Two nights ago, Reka started acting frantic about 11pm.
> I let her out. It's coyote breeding season, and she is
> fascinated by them. I assumed she wanted to go out and
> listen to them howling. I brought her in, and she spent
> the night franticly and desperately demanding to go out.
>
> After about 4am, I finally put her in the barn, locked
> securely in a horse stall for the night.
>
> She came in by morning, and had a normal active, playful
> day. Last night, at 11pm, She franticly DEMANDED to go
> out. I let her out, and brought her in. At midnight, she
> DEMANDED to be let out. I let her out, but I went out
> to the barn and got a crate, and decided she could
> spend the rest of the night in the crate. We were NOT
> going to do a repeat of the previous night AGAIN.
>
> At 3am, she whined so loudly, I then decided not to
> allow her to set a precedence of this type of behavior.
> So I took her crate out to the heated gun shop and
> decided to let her act out her bad behavior in peace,
> and send a message that her obnoxious behavior
> was not going to be tolerated.
>
> This morning at 6am, I went out, and she had vomited
> (normal looking dog food) and defecated in her crate
> (not normal for Reka, but then, She normally didn't
> sleep in a crate, NEVER gets corrected (she never does
> anything to GET corrected for) and was probably nerves
> from the outside experience, plus reprimand and solitary
> confinement.)
>
> I let her in the house while I cleaned the cage. Hoping
> I had made my point. She acted healthy and normal, and
> playful and chipper. But then I noticed a spot of blood on
> the bathroom linoleum and in the bathtub. I was the last to
> take a bath, so I knew REKA was the last in the tub.
>
> That blood didnt come from me, so it HAD to come from
> Reka. Thinking about her nearing the end of her heat cycle,
> I still didnt think a lot about it. I thought her obnoxious
> behavior the past couple nights WAS her heat cycle..
> and corresponding coyote breeding season.
>
> Then while feeding her breakfast, I saw the whole story.
> She had blood (fresh) streaming from her RECTUM. UhOh.
>
> I had her at the vets office this morning before he
> opened. He just said her intestines were all bunched
> up with huge air pockets.
>
> Was there any chance that she ate strings of carpets? I
> said, last Thursday we took a plastic tarp out of the yard
> that we had over the grill to protect it from the weather
> because she was chewing it. That would explain
> EVERYTHING.
>
> The strings are binding and bunching up her intestines,
> cutting her internally and tying her intestines in knots as
> it works its way through.
>
> Reka is in a very critical situation. She is going to
> require extensive and expensive surgery that I cant
> afford. I will manage.
>
> Even with the surgery, her condition will be critical
> for awhile. Scary thoughts. I would never have
> treated her the way I did last night, if I had even a
> clue that she was sick. I feel so badly.
> --
> diddy
>
> ===============================
> From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: www.wild-about-trapping.com
> Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping
> Date: 2002-02-11 13:00:29 PST
>
>
> Hey Tobias!
> I just sent some of my husband's trap line catches to
> http://www.wild-about-trapping.com
>
> I didn't get all his catch so far this year. In fact, I
> didn't get most. So far he's had 14 beaver (largest ohio
> beaver weighing in at 75 pounds, smallest at 35 pounds,
> and the average about 45 pounds), 10 coyotes, 4 red fox, 3
> muskrats, 38 raccoon, 1 mink. Fur Prices are WAY down,
> and he sold those wonderful beaver for $8 apeice from the
> raw fur buyer.
>
> coyotes pay $3 a piece for raw furs. Raccoons $.50 a piece.
> Hardly worth doing, but he's got to do SOMETHING or sitting
> around the house with me would drive him stir crazy. <grin>
> I love seeing what he brings home, and even helping him (or
> even actually running) his trap line with/for him.
>
> Now when TrapperKD, Webmaster of wild-about-trapping.com
> posts them, you can see somewhat the difference between ohio
> Red Fox and German Reds. Also posted a Coyote too, i think
> Going to see if i can find some of the beaver now.
>
> --
> diddy
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Diddy, on setting up her OWN traplines
> and having a blast at the fur auction
>
> From: diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
> Subject: Fur Auction Ohio State Trappers Association Xenia
> Ohio Feb 15 2002
> Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping
> Date: 2002-02-16 09:13:07 PST
>
>
> I went to the fur auction with my husband just to see what
> was going on. we only stayed for the first two lots but this
> was the way the Auction was running
>
> Coyote
> #1 #2 #3
> $13 $10 $8
>
> Red Fox
> #1 #2
> $25 $10.50
>
> Grey Fox
> #1
> $11
>
> Possum
> #1 #2
> $2 $.50
>
> Beaver
> 60-64" 52-54"
> $6 $5.25
>
> Raccoon
> #1 #2
> 3x $14 $9
> 2x $12.25 $7.50
> 1x $8
> lg $4.75
>
> Muskrat
> Lg $4.50
> med $3.00
> Mink
> Male #1 $10.50 Male #2 $2.50
> Female #1 $3.25
>
> I decided I'm running my OWN trap line next year (I had a
> blast at the auction. Another girl was there with me
> taking it all in. We both decided we would try our own
> lines next year. My husband says before I go buy my own
> traps, I should try it first and see if I'm going to
> stick with it, So we made a deal on trap rentals next
> year. Snare rental is the same as #1 traps.
> diddy
> ----------------------------------------------------------
lines? Diddy somebody say something about trap lines? Diddy
somebody say something about running away? Diddy somebody
taw a puddy cat strangulated in a trap?
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> "diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
> news:3C55943B...@nospam.diddy.net...
>
> > > > > > Why is everything Jerry howe on this site?
>
> > > Who's he? I can't see any posts by anyone of that name.
> > > Tell us about your dogs, please, Jennifer, Stan and Tara.
> > >
> > > Alikat
>
> > With strategic killfiling, I also don't see others
> > rebuttals either
>
> Yeah. Like you missed my information on breaking dogs of
> CHEWING and besides, you was too busy jerking and choking
> and scolding your dog.
>
> > It got quiet once I learned effective killfiling.
>
> Didn't it though??? Seein as most every thread is about
> Jerry Howe and why you should KILLFILE the INFORMATION you
> bums need and don't have cause if you admit to using my
> methods, your pals will be EMBARRASSED after they've been
> tellin everybody my methods don't work and I'm a liar and
> con man.
>
> That's O.K., diddler. I PLANNED it like that... I'm a dog
> trainer.
>
> > I haven't seen a JH post since last august..
>
> INDEED, but HE sees yours, diddler.
>
> > and thought he ceased to exist,
>
> Like your dog came close to not existing anyMOORE after
> chewin up some stuff and got HURT on it.
>
> Cost you THOUSANDS at the vet??? At least $1500.00, eh
> diddler?
>
> > until you mentioned that it's apparently a problem for you
>
> Seems Jerry's a bit of a problem for ALL of our dog
> lovers... who like to jerk and choke and shock and spray
> aversives in their dog's faces, diddler.
>
> Have a little whine to wash down the strings of carpet your
> dog swallowed cause you used it to cover something else he
> was chewing...
>
> > A Salute to Casey, and sent with sympathies.
>
> Save it diddler, you need it for yourself.
>
> You could have avoided the entire incident had you
> TRAINED your dog using my methods not to chew
> stuff. But you'd rather force, intimidate and barricade
> instead of handle and train your dog like a respectable
> dog handler and decent human being. Adios... Thug.
>
> Jerry.
>
> > diddy
> ================
>
> "diddy" <di...@diddy.net> wrote in message
> news:3DD7A06C...@diddy.net...
> > NG Posting Guy wrote
> > > I've only been here for a few days...
> > > but could someone explain these terms for me;
> > > HOWE
> > > MOORE
> > > BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> > > Thanks!
>
> > It means the poster is insane and should be killfiled.
> > There are regular postings on how to do this.
J1Boss
>
> Hm. Just out of curiosity, under what circumstances, and at what distance?
> Personally, I'd be inclined to suspect collar failure if that happened,
He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even
blink an eye.
Alison
>
>
> He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He
didn't even
> blink an eye.
>
> Janet Boss
>
I don't understand . What were you trying to get the dog to do?
Alison
J1Boss
>
> I don't understand . What were you trying to get the dog to do?
> Alison
It was first intro to the collar, to find his level. All he had to do was sit.
Amy Dahl
J1Boss wrote:
> >
> > Hm. Just out of curiosity, under what circumstances, and at what distance?
> > Personally, I'd be inclined to suspect collar failure if that happened,
>
> He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even
> blink an eye.
>
I have seen that effect. I think what's needed is a lower level, or use
momentary.
Of course, I have no experience with bird dogs but they are reputed to be
stubborn and tough--I have no idea if this is physical stoicism or, being more
independent than retrievers, a lesser tendency to connect the collar impulse to
their behavior.
Amy Dahl
J1Boss
>I have seen that effect. I think what's needed is a lower level, or use
>momentary.
I was using momentary and I had been going up one level at a time. He's a
total blockhead.
>Of course, I have no experience with bird dogs but they are reputed to be
>stubborn and tough--I have no idea if this is physical stoicism or, being
>more
>independent than retrievers, a lesser tendency to connect the collar impulse
>to
>their behavior.
I can tell you that I have NO desire to ever own a GSP! ;-D His owners had
initially wanted to use and existing IF system with him, but I doubt that it
would have much effect on him. The dogs I've most frequently seen blast right
through, have been in the pointer family - GSPs, Weims, etc.
Sionnach
"J1Boss" wrote:
> It was first intro to the collar, to find his level.
To clarify, since Alison may not be familiar with the concept: the first
thing you do in e-collar training is find the LOWEST level that the dog
notices. At the lower levels, an e-collar feels like a tingle or tickle, if
it can be felt at all- so what you're looking for is for the dog to have a
mild reaction (cocking the head, looking puzzled, etc.) that indicates the
dog can feel it.
Each individual has different reaction levels- I can't feel the lowest
level, and can easily hold my hand down on a 4 or 5; the sensation is odd,
but it doesn't bother me. Other people find a 2 or 3 startling.
Same with dogs- and apparently the Pointer simply didn't mind the
sensation.
Sionnach
"J1Boss" writes:
> I was using momentary and I had been going up one level at a time. He's a
> total blockhead.
>
> >Of course, I have no experience with bird dogs but they are reputed to be
> >stubborn and tough--I have no idea if this is physical stoicism
I don't think it's "stoicism", per se- I honestly think some hunting dogs
are wired differently. I've seen a GSP hit a sharp stick, tear loose a huge
triangular flap of skin, and keep right on playing and bouncing around with
the muscle wall exposed. Not a matter of shock or anything like that,
either- she simply didn't seem to feel it.
Gwen Watson
Sionnach wrote:
>
> Not a matter of shock or anything like that,
>either- she simply didn't seem to feel it.
>
I have a co-worker with 2 GSP's who recently started using
e-collar on her dogs. I am going to ask her how this training
is going with them. They are very beautiful dogs but I wouldn't want
one myself.
Gwen
>
>
>
>
>
KrisHur
I have the Dogtra 1200 NCP is it is way more power than I would ever
need--the dial for her it set just under mid-way for nick function and just
over low for the constant function (a quick press of the constant button is
much, much more powerful than the nick and can be used when the dog is
blowing off the nick). I doubt that you need to pay up for the 1200NCP--I'd
go with the 200NCP series. The only real difference I can see it that the
1200 transmitter is waterproof but the 200 is water resistant. The 1200 has
no antenna but the 200 has the antenna built into the collar. The 1200 has
on/off button and the 200 is turned on/off much like an innotek where you
hold the transmitter against the collar. If it were available when I
purchased my collar I probably would have bought this one.
I wouldn't worry too much about the "zapping power" the innotek level four
would be a lowish setting on the Dogtra. Be careful--this collar will be
very powerful and if you set it to high you can cause some real problems for
yourself. Dogs who get bigger shocks than needed can become aggressive--they
want to fight off what ever is hurting them but cannot find it so become
extremely frustrated.
Don't forget, you will need to retrain your dog to respond to the page
instead of the tone. I would definitely get a collar with a page or tone
function so that you can get his her attention when a correction is not
needed. I prefer the page b/c when in high drive a dog can literally not
hear--the page will "reach out and touch" him. Once trained to the page you
may find that's all you need.
--
Kristen and
Kali CDX, CGC, TDIA, TT
www.kristenandkali.com
"Lazy Senior" <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:VYY7c.73359$Cb.1000950@attbi_s51...
Lazy Senior
> I have the Dogtra 1200 NCP is it is way more power than I would ever
> need--the dial for her it set just under mid-way for nick function and just
> over low for the constant function (a quick press of the constant button is
> much, much more powerful than the nick and can be used when the dog is
> blowing off the nick). I doubt that you need to pay up for the 1200NCP--I'd
> go with the 200NCP series. The only real difference I can see it that the
> 1200 transmitter is waterproof but the 200 is water resistant. The 1200 has
> no antenna but the 200 has the antenna built into the collar. The 1200 has
> on/off button and the 200 is turned on/off much like an innotek where you
> hold the transmitter against the collar. If it were available when I
> purchased my collar I probably would have bought this one.
>
> I wouldn't worry too much about the "zapping power" the innotek level four
> would be a lowish setting on the Dogtra. Be careful--this collar will be
> very powerful and if you set it to high you can cause some real problems for
> yourself. Dogs who get bigger shocks than needed can become aggressive--they
> want to fight off what ever is hurting them but cannot find it so become
> extremely frustrated.
Thank you very much for this information. I just ordered the 1200NCP. I
called the dealer on the telephone and he seemed very knowledable about
Dogtra collars. He told me the 200 has less zapping power than the 1100
or 1200 models.
This dealer gives a 30 day money back return, so if it doesnt work out I
can get my money back. He assured me the 1200 would have way more power
than my old Innotek Sd 100.
I decided on the vibrator model cuz I really dont want to zap my dog
unless I have to. He does need something to get his attention at times
tho and I am hoping the vibrator will work as well as the beeper did.
Lazy Senior
culprit
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3s84d$2anh9e$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I don't think it's "stoicism", per se- I honestly think some hunting
dogs
> are wired differently. I've seen a GSP hit a sharp stick, tear loose a
huge
> triangular flap of skin, and keep right on playing and bouncing around
with
> the muscle wall exposed. Not a matter of shock or anything like that,
> either- she simply didn't seem to feel it.
sounds like Manu. when he got that nasty gash under his eye, he let us
examine it, clean it, and even wipe it with an antiseptic pad (ouch!),
without even moving.
the vet was impressed that he would just sit there while she inspected the
wound.
but i guess everyone knows that pit bulls don't feel pain. i think it's a
side effect of the enzyme that causes their jaws to lock. ;-)
-kelly
Scott
Scott
The Puppy Wizard
"Lazy Senior" <spamnola...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:8Rl8c.83296$1p.1226537@attbi_s54...
The Puppy Wizard
"Scott" <sco...@2extremes.nett> wrote in message
news:4062207B...@2extremes.nett...
> So what would be the point in using the e-collar?
You mean, if you didn't know HOWE to train a dog?
The Puppy Wizard
THAT'S HOWE COME HOWER DOG LOVERS
MURDER DOGS THEY CAN'T HURT and INTIMIDATE
ENOUGH to train.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"Scott" <sco...@2extremes.nett> wrote in message
news:406220D4...@2extremes.nett...
Scott
KrisHur wrote:
>I too have a lab who's a soft girl but physically insensitive as they come.
>I have the Dogtra 1200 NCP is it is way more power than I would ever
>need--the dial for her it set just under mid-way for nick function and just
>over low for the constant function
>
Please clarify this for me: The Dogtra 1200 NCP has the capability to
have two different stimulus levels set at the same time, one for nick
and the other for constant. Is that correct? You own one and I don't,
so you should know, but when I looked into e-collars some months/weeks
ago, I didn't come across that feature on the Dogtra, but then I only
looked at the 200. I am just curious.
J1Boss
(re: my GSP client):
>So what would be the point in using the e-collar?
What don't you get?
J1Boss
>That is one heck of an intro.
What is one heck of an intro? Doing something simple like SIT, or having his
neck pulse without effect?
Sionnach
> >From: Scott sco...@2extremes.nett
> (re: my GSP client):
>
> >So what would be the point in using the e-collar?
>
> What don't you get?
Apparently, he's not getting (or ignoring) the subsequent posts in which
the proper way to introduce dogs to the e-collar (starting at the lowest
level and going up one level at a time until the dog shows a very mild
reaction to the sensation) was described.
J1Boss
> Apparently, he's not getting (or ignoring) the subsequent posts in which
>the proper way to introduce dogs to the e-collar (starting at the lowest
>level and going up one level at a time until the dog shows a very mild
>reaction to the sensation) was described.
Yes - I suspect he's ignoring them just to troll.
BTW - my collar is an Innotek Command Series II ADV-1000. It has 15 levels,
plus tone.
Scott
J1Boss wrote:
>>From: Scott sco...@2extremes.nett
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>That is one heck of an intro.
>>
>>
>
>What is one heck of an intro? Doing something simple like SIT, or having his
>neck pulse without effect?
>
"He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing." is one heck of an intro. I was told that a yawn, twitch, scratch, or cock of the head was typically a starting point.
Scott
J1Boss wrote:
>>From: Scott sco...@2extremes.nett
>>
>>
>(re: my GSP client):
>
>
>
>>So what would be the point in using the e-collar?
>>
>>
>
>What don't you get?
>
"He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even
blink an eye."
If you give him a shock that makes his muscles pulsate and he won't even
blink and
eye, let along obey the command, it would seem that the e-collar is
rather worthless, at least with your dog.
Scott
Sionnach wrote:
Oh, I understand the way an e-collar is suppose to be used. I just
thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers in this
newsgroup, so if it wasn't working for her with her expertise, what
would be the point in using such a collar, at least with her dog. AND
as a rule I don't generally read every single post befor I ask a
question of someone.
Sionnach
"Scott" wrote:
>
it would seem that the e-collar is
> rather worthless, at least with your dog.
Yup. You're either A. not getting all the posts B. deliberately ignoring
clearly stated facts in order to troll or C. not reading for comprehension.
Since you quoted one of the posts that contained content you're ignoring,
"A" is unlikely.
If you read ALL of the thread, with attention to the content of the posts
from Janet, myself, and Amy, you would know that A. Janet was not talking
about her own dog B. that the incident described was an intro to see if the
collar was an appropriate tool for this particular dog and C. that Janet's
conclusion was that electronic stimulus *wasn't* useful with this particular
dog.
Sionnach
"Scott" wrote:
> "He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing." is one >heck
of an intro. I was told that a yawn, twitch, scratch, or cock >of the head
was typically a starting point.
Again, if you'd bother to read THE ENTIRE THREAD, Janet quite clearly
stated that she started with the lowest level and worked her way up, and the
dog never reacted.
Scott
J1Boss wrote:
>Sarah wrote:
>
>
>
>> Apparently, he's not getting (or ignoring) the subsequent posts in which
>>the proper way to introduce dogs to the e-collar (starting at the lowest
>>level and going up one level at a time until the dog shows a very mild
>>reaction to the sensation) was described.
>>
>>
>
>
>Yes - I suspect he's ignoring them just to troll.
>
Oh yes, here we go again.
Sionnach
"Scott" wrote:
> I just
> thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers
She's more than a "dog handler"; among other things, she's a professional
trainer.
> as a rule I don't generally read every single post befor I ask a
> question of someone.
If you'd bothered to read all the posts, you wouldn't be asking questions
that have already been answered.
Melinda Shore
diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote:
>True, and a TRAINED dog would have sat when told. An e-collar is supposed
>to be re-enforcement on an already trained dog. So I sense mismanagement on
>the part of the handler,
I'm really enjoying your "you suck"-athon.
Just kidding.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bush's plans for the partial privatization of Social Security
would require about $1,000,000,000,000 in transition costs
J1Boss
>>
>Oh, I understand the way an e-collar is suppose to be used. I just
>thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers in this
>newsgroup, so if it wasn't working for her with her expertise, what
>would be the point in using such a collar, at least with her dog.
Once again, since you are obviously reading Sarah's response - the dog is NOT
*MY* dog. The point is - this intro convinced me that the e-collar is NOT an
appropriate tool for this particular dog. I never put it on him again. There
was no twitch, yawn or cock of the head (nor yipe, etc obviously) until the
level of 9, where his neck muscles were indeed reacting and he still didn't
care. That made the e-collar a useless tool for this dog, and it was not used
again after that intro.
IS THAT CLEAR YET?!?!?!!?!?!
Scott
respond? Are you unable to answer my question? If so, or if my
question bothers you so, don't respond. Why is that so hard for you to
understand?
J1Boss
>If the dog wasn't responding to a command to sit, then the dog wasn't
>trained properly to SIT. An e-collar is supposed to be used on a trained
>dog for re-enforcement, NOT as a robotic remote tool.
The dog knew a sit. He would sit for me on command. He would NOT sit for his
OWNER on command. The collar was a tool that we were going to use to reinforce
commands from HER.
>If the dog was
>trained to sit, but the intensity was too strong, then the shock probably
>paralyzed the dog to keep it from sitting.
Oh, give me a break. Diddy - you're slipping on those drugs again.
>Either the dog wasn't trained properly, and use of the collar was
>mismanaged, or the intensity was mismanaged and should have been lower,
>(which Janet said she did) or not constant, as Amy Dahl suggested.
>In either case, it sounds like abuse of the collar.
Time to plonk - you are a confirmed idiot with no reading comprehension.
J1Boss
>> Who hung out a plaque that she wants to train dogs. Has no real titles or
>qualifications to show for it.
Oh geez. No - I don't have a PhD in dog training (hint: there is no such
thing). I don't have a plaque. My dogs do - awards of various sorts, but I
don't. I think my BIB is merely a sign. I do own a banner, does that count?
Sionnach
"diddy" wrote:
> I sense mismanagement on
> the part of the handler,
Wrong. As Janet quite clearly stated, this was NOT a trained dog; the
situation was an intro, and the object was to find the level the dog reacted
to. This particular dog never reacted.
Sionnach
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
news:4062ECF...@tooxtreem.nett...
> Yes, so what is the point of using the e-collar if the dog doesn't
> respond?
Try reading the rest of the thread; that question has already been
answered, more than once.
J1Boss
>Yes, so what is the point of using the e-collar if the dog doesn't
>respond? Are you unable to answer my question? If so, or if my
>question bothers you so, don't respond. Why is that so hard for you to
>understand?
I HAVE responded. It was the ONE and ONLY time the e-collar was on the dog. It
was ABANDONED as an appropriate training tool for THAT (NOT *MY*) dog. Your
question doesn't bother me, your failure to read and comprehend does.
Scott
diddy wrote:
>>Oh, I understand the way an e-collar is suppose to be used. I just
>>thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers in this
>>newsgroup, so if it wasn't working for her with her expertise, what
>>would be the point in using such a collar, at least with her dog. AND
>>as a rule I don't generally read every single post befor I ask a
>>question of someone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>If the dog wasn't responding to a command to sit, then the dog wasn't
>trained properly to SIT. An e-collar is supposed to be used on a trained
>dog for re-enforcement, NOT as a robotic remote tool. If the dog was
>trained to sit, but the intensity was too strong, then the shock probably
>paralyzed the dog to keep it from sitting. I'm not going to take a muscle
>rippling zap sitting down either.
Scott
J1Boss
>Date: 3/25/2004 9:48 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <4062F12C...@tooxtreem.nett>
>
>Show me the posts, please.
you're incapable of finding the thread? it ain't that hard.
Sionnach
"diddy" wrote:
> BZZ wrong answer. Janet just stated it WAS a trained dog.
But not trained to the e-collar, which is what you and I were talking
about.
> But I'm supposed to be clairvoyant and base my opinions on things not
> previously stated.
Nope. It was quite clearly stated, *including* in the post you're
referring to, that the dog was NOT TRAINED TO THE E-COLLAR, and that the
situation Janet described was the very first step of collar intro-
attempting to find the lowest level the dog responds to, BEFORE beginning
actual training.
It's also been clearly stated at least three times that since the dog
didn't respond to the collar at all DURING THE INTRO, the collar was never
used for training.
Sionnach
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
> Show me the posts, please.
Sorry, but unless you're not getting all the posts, they're all right here
in the thread for you to read; I have no way of "showing you" where they are
on YOUR computer screeen.
It shouldn't be too hard for you to scroll through the thread, and find
posts from Janet & myself - you should see a sequence of posts that are
clearly going back and forth between "sionnach" and "J1Boss", with one or
two midway from Amy Dahl. If you take the post where I asked her "what were
the circumstances", and read down from there, you'll find the information.
If you still can't find the posts, then your reader isn't getting them
all, or is getting them late; I suggest you try Google. However, since you
*replied* to at least one post IN THAT SEQUENCE, you ought to be able to
find it again.
The Puppy Wizard
You gotta realize we're dealing with liars dog abusers
cowards and active long term incurable mental cases
and Satanists who'll hurt and murder anyWON or any
THING that opposes their viciHOWES assault on every
thing humane and decent.
WELCOME to rpdb.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
news:4062E707...@tooxtreem.nett...
The Puppy Wizard
EVERY THING HOWER DOG LOVERS DO to their
dogs is USELESS. THAT'S HOWE COME they MURDER
HOWER BEST DOGS.
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. He has millions of
> people aleady reading his posts and watching him extract
> his soggy foot out of his mouth! Out of these MILLIONS,
> I've only seen 2 naive childs come forward and actually
> believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
> admit to buying and having success with his little black
> box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by Jerry's
> posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to him!
> LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
> Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
====================
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16990-3C...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
> not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her
> loss. I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because
> of how you write/wrote.
>
> I was unwilling to accept the idea
> that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on
> Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using it
> my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own
> yard.
>
> Once I started using the e-fence...well, then my concern
> became how to keep them from running off for days on end.
>
> I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the
> anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
>
> I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now
> <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely
> housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and
> doesn't bark all the time.
>
> IOW a great companion and
> friend.
>
> Thanks Jerry!
=====================
misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two
> dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come
> back in the yard and would run for days.
>
> The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
>
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how
> to train my dog. She is now border trained.
>
> A few minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay
> in the yard. She no longer runs out into the road, I can
> stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
> when we walk around the yard.
>
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
> e-fence and its collars.
>
> If you can't get a regular fence then you need to train
> your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to
> keep my dog in our yard again.
>
> The price was too high:-( ~misty
--------------------------------
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
news:4062E856...@tooxtreem.nett...
The Puppy Wizard
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
From: The Puppy Wizard (ThePupp...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Pup Wakes/Whines Early AM
View: Complete Thread (24 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.animals.dog,
alt.pets.dogs.pitbull, alt.pets.dogs.labrador,
rec.pets.dogs.rescue, rec.pets.dogs.health, rec.pets.dogs.misc,
alt.med.veterinary
Date: 2003-12-19 07:04:05 PST
HOWEDY Disciple Charlie,
dr. sidman and professor SCRUFF SHAKE
and ChadL and C. L. and descarte agree that
pain or OC as they would call it, are NECESSARY
to PERFECTLY train a orgasm.
The Puppy Wizard and Stan Corson and
Breland & Breland (THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS) are MENTAL CASES
who just don't know HOWE to HURT a
dog pupperly.
90% of the university trained behaviorists
CANNOT BE WRONG, or they'd be HOWETA
BUSINESS, Disciple Charlie.
The ONLY question The Puppy Wizard got
is "WOULD THEY BET THEIR LIVES and
CAREERS on it?"
The Puppy Wizard will, and HE'LL raise
the stakes... to boot. Stay tuned...
The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
message news:5mu5uv4ugsfi72uia...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:57:43 GMT, "C. L."
<spam...@adelphia.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in
message
> >news:fpi4uv0atad3qkj6m...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Have you tried an Electric Shock Collar? You can keep the
remote on
> >> your nightstand and just reach over and push the button when
he starts
> >> to yip in the morning... like hitting the snooze button on
your alarm.
> >
> >How can anyone actually offer this kind of advice? It's a
PUPPY! Teach it
> >what it's supposed to do first.
> >
> >> Any old time, pal. I may not be an expert on dogs, but I've
known a
> >> few bad ones. Pain is an effective teaching device.
> >
> >Then why don't we use pain in all learning environments? You
are obviously
> >not an expert on dogs or you would know that this is NOT
anywhere near the
> >top of "effective teaching devices.
> >
> Oh, sure. Even Saddam Hussein would probably agree with you --
but
> only because he's the guy in the dungeon for a change. But, if
I were
> the CIA interrogator, I'd be heating up the tongs for a
pop-quiz.
> It's all a matter of perspective, right?
>
> Charlie
The Puppy Wizard
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
From: The Puppy Wizard (ThePupp...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: training collar for small dog
Date: 2004-03-20 14:17:44 PST
HOWEDY krisHURT,
"KrisHur" <kris_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:105oscb...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> I disagree that people were rude to you.
Of curse! The "people" wasn't RUDE, their attitude was.
> If you feel that people don't know enough about
> your background
That's IRRELEVENT. All we gotta know is the
OP was askin HOWE to HURT his dog to keep
IT from runnin HOWET on him.
> it's your fault--you didn't provide any.
That's cause all we needed to know is the OP is
a dog abuser. HOWEver, we already knew THAT,
on accHOWENT of DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT
POST HERE abHOWETS cause all we got are
LIARS DOG ABUSERS and MENTAL CASES.
Like yourself, krisHURT.
> If you cannot/do not want to fence
That was made clear in the original post.
> what about an invisible fence?
THAT was the OP's QUESTION. What shock
collar is BEST for HURTIN his dog, krisHURT.
> It's wire that is placed just under the soil and
> the dog wears a collar
That SHOCKS him.
> when he's outside.
Which is HOWE COME dogs try harder to
ESCAPE their shock contrainment systems
and become aggressive.
> If the collar gets to close to the wire the dog is
> given a shock.
That's kindly of you, krisHURT.
> When you have it installed they train your dog.
No, they HURT your dog.
> Unless you have experience working with shock collars,
You mean HURTIN dogs like you do.
> have a professional
A professional DOG ABUSER.
> help you choose the right model for your dog
There AIN'T no RIGHT way to HURT a dog, krisHURT.
> and they will also help you find the right setting
> for your dog.
There AIN'T no RIGHT settin for HURTIN your dog.
> A shock collar should NOT hurt the dog,
That's INSANE. Ask dr. sidman.
> the stimulation is set so that it is uncomfortable
> and annoying
That so? Kinda like when The Amazing Puppy
Wizard reviews your posts?
> but the dog should not jump, yelp or display
> anything but a mild discomfort--something
> as small as a head turn.
That so? That doesn't make sense if you're
gonna RELY on HURTING dogs to train them.
Sez so in your koehler book, krisHURT.
Shocking and choking dogs is INTENDED TO HURT
or it WOULDN'T WORK. That's HOWE COME you
and your punk thug coward lyin dog abusing pals
can't train your dogs cause you don't know HOWE
to HURT them effectively.
> If it's set too low, the correction is not delivered.
You mean the PAIN.
> A collar that's set too high is cruel and can
> cause major behavioral problems.
That's a LIE. If you're gonna HURT a dog to
TRAIN IT you BETTER HURT IT RIGHT or
your trainin WON'T WORK. Even lying frosty
dahl sez so: " Repeated weak corrections are
very stressful to the dog."
You'll NOTICE she didn't say "EFFECTIVE"
corrections are harmful...
> A professional would be able to tell when
> it's set at the right level.
That so?
> I would use something tangible to keep him
> on the property like an invisible fence or lead.
Cause you don't know HOWE to TRAIN a dog, krisHURT.
> Doxies can be
A dog is a dog.
> incredibly prey driven
SO, Doxie's and Beagles and sighHOWENDS
and Huskies can't be perimeter trained, and
pit bulls are HOWETA the question?
> and the behavior he's been enjoying is very
> self rewarding.
That so?
> I think it will be very difficult to train him out of it.
Oh, well that's on accHOWENT of you're a IDIOT, krisHURT.
> Kristen and
The Puppy Wizard has enjoyed humiliating
and debunking HOWER so called EXXXPERTS
so much HE figgers you'll likeWIZE enjoy the
comedy of death terror and error. The Puppy
Wizard calls this phase of dog trainin ATTRITIION
for past crimes against man, dog, and humanity:
"A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A Resounding
Sound Distraction: "When You Chuck The
Dog The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible
To The Ears And Give A Popping Sound To
The Dog," captain arthur haggerty.
"Puppy Problems Prevented"
CanineHealthOnline.org. - JERRYIZED
HOWEDY People,
This is the typical bullshit you're gonna find from your
expert veterinary behaviorists and expert dog trainers:
"Question:
I have a 4 month old Great Dane female puppy
who has the habit of biting and catching the lead
in her mouth to shake it in a playful manner when
we walk. I am planning to show her in conformation
and need to break this habit. I rubbed Bitter Apple
on the lead but to no avail. I am using Tabasco pepper
sauce now but it is only partially effective. I try telling
her "leave it" and pulling it downward. Any help you
can give me would be appreciated. "
The world faMOUSE cap'n arthur haggerty replies:
"This is not a difficult problem to solve but"
But our expert can't teach us HOWE to do that
without HURTIN the dog...
" it is very difficult to explain because"
Because he has NO method, only fear force confrontation
intimidation pain and aversives.
" of the many variations and nuances involved in doing so. "
IOW the lying dog abusing Thug needs to couch his words
carefully cause he can only tell us to HURT our dogs, PEOPLE!
" Your use of Bitter Apple and Tabasco sauce is not a bad
move"
That'll endear the dog to working with the handler on lead,
and establish trust love and confidence.
" and I would continue to use it."
First use aversives, and if that don't work, HURT THE DOG to
be fair... cause THAT'S ALL our dog lovers know HOWE to do.
Should take a few minutes to train this dog not to do that...
without hurtin him.
" One correction that can be used is chucking the dog under
the chin when she is biting on the leash. "
Kindly enough advice. When done correctly according to
koehler, our good captain's teacher, the dog will not realize
you are the only one with hands standin there.
" Let me briefly explain the chucking technique."
EXCELLENT! Our dog lovers here don't like to give detailed
advice, so's they don't unintentionally mislead nobody noHOWE.
" Cup your hand so that your thumb and forefinger create a
circle."
Kinda like our professor lying doc scruff shake dermer does
when he relaxes on his couch?
" Your hand comes from the bottom up to the lower portion of
the mandible so the Dane doesn't see it at all. "
Right. Although big enough to take your hand off at the
shoulder, they're big stupid dogs and won't realize it's YOU
who just slapped him in the mouth, and will not even know
you're his tormentor.
" When you chuck the dog the sound will travel up the mandible
to the ears and give a popping sound to the dog. "
AHHH YES! Sound Distraction as taught by the good capn!
" Use a verbal correction at the same time. "
You mean like offering to make a deal?
" Do it as many times as it takes to get the dog to stop. "
I've seen Danes not stop, not for over a year till the dog
was too dangerous to do anything with...except by me.
" You will not be able to deliver that correction every time
so "
So that means the variable reinforcement will negate the
method, antagonize the dog, and exacerbate the anxiety which
is causing the dog to mouth and chew on the lead to defend
himself from being jerked and choked on his pronged spiked
pinch choke collar that is necessary for these monster sized
dogs which I grew up with training serious behavior problems
without hurting them, cause the loser DIES... when you fight
with a dog that's too big to intimidate and hurt enough to
make IT respect your Godlike AUTHORITY.
" supplement it with a collar correction. "
A jerk and choke will teach the dog you are in control... and
the guy in control is the bum who's slappin him around and
jerking and choking him for objecting to being jerked and
choked in the first place, PEOPLE.
" An obedience foundation will certainly help. "
AS STATED.
" Now this is the fastest and longest lasting approach in
solving the problem. "
That so, capn? You're a liar and a dog abuser and got to get
exposed to the akc and run outta business, good buddy. We'll
be seeing a lot of each other in the very near future. This
town ain't big enough for the both of us, cap'n... I'm
worldwide.
Get outta Doge. Jerry Howe, The Puppy Wizard. <{}; ~ ) >
==================
Borrowed from: "Puppy Raising Tips" from
professional trainers, John and Amy Dahl.
"Around four months many puppies can withstand a
correction. Unfortunately this is the time they start
teething and if their mouth hurts, they may act
generally sensitive. If this is the case, be patient and
wait for all those baby teeth to fall out.
In training, retrievers often respond to physical correction
better than verbal correction. While "NO!" is extremely
useful if puppy is about to bite an electrical cord or steal
food off the table, when you are teaching them something
(like obedience) a sharp jerk on their lead or swat with a
stick gets the message across with less emotion and less
effect on their confidence.
If they drop the dummy and act like their mouth hurts
when they are teething, stop all retrieving and wait for
their mouth to feel better. A correction should be just
severe enough to get the dog to respond.
Repeated weak corrections are very stressful to the dog."
END lyingfrosty dahl
Scott
started with the lowest level and worked her way up.
You are making things up again.
Scott
J1Boss wrote:
>Scott wrote:
>
>
>
>>Yes, so what is the point of using the e-collar if the dog doesn't
>>respond? Are you unable to answer my question? If so, or if my
>>question bothers you so, don't respond. Why is that so hard for you to
>>understand?
>>
>>
>
>I HAVE responded. It was the ONE and ONLY time the e-collar was on the dog. It
>was ABANDONED as an appropriate training tool for THAT (NOT *MY*) dog. Your
>question doesn't bother me, your failure to read and comprehend does.
>
>
>
I comprehend well enough to realize that you and Sionnach continually
add to what you think you have previously said.
Suja
> I just reread all the threads to this point. Janet never said that she
> started with the lowest level and worked her way up.
She did, in response to Amy's comments. It was posted at 8:18 AM on
3/24/04.
Suja
sionnach
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
> I just reread all the threads to this point. Janet never said that she
> started with the lowest level and worked her way up.
Yes, she did, and in so many words- yesterday morning.
>
> You are making things up again.
I don't "make things up". If you can't find the post, it's either missing
from your newsreader, or you haven't looked at all the post Janet made
yesterday.
Scott
J1Boss wrote:
>Scott writes:
>
>
>>Oh, I understand the way an e-collar is suppose to be used. I just
>>thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers in this
>>newsgroup, so if it wasn't working for her with her expertise, what
>>would be the point in using such a collar, at least with her dog.
>>
>>
>
>Once again, since you are obviously reading Sarah's response - the dog is NOT
>*MY* dog.
>
I never said it was your dog.
>The point is - this intro convinced me that the e-collar is NOT an
>appropriate tool for this particular dog. I never put it on him again. There
>was no twitch, yawn or cock of the head (nor yipe, etc obviously) until the
>level of 9, where his neck muscles were indeed reacting and he still didn't
>care. That made the e-collar a useless tool for this dog, and it was not used
>again after that intro.
>IS THAT CLEAR YET?!?!?!!?!?!
>
Sure, that is perfectly clear. Why didn't you just say that in the
beginning when I asked what the point of using the e-collar was if the
dog didn't respond.
sionnach
> I don't "make things up". If you can't find the post, it's either
missing
> from your newsreader, or you haven't looked at all the post Janet made
> yesterday.
Oh, and Scott? Try looking at the DATES on the posts; in case you haven't
yet figured this out, threads don't run chronologically from beginning to
end.
Scott
too, answered it.
Thanks
sionnach
>
> I never said it was your dog.
Quote from a post you made at 9:10 this morning, directed to Janet, about
the dog in question (emphasis mine):
"it would seem that the e-collar is rather worthless, at least with YOUR
DOG."
Quote from a post you made at 9:16 this morning:
" I just
thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers in this
newsgroup, so if it wasn't working for her with her expertise, what
would be the point in using such a collar, at least with HER DOG."
Again, if you had bothered to read what Janet had already written, she had
quite clearly stated that it was a client's dog.
Scott
Sionnach wrote:
>"Scott" wrote:
>
>
>
>> I just
>>thought J1Boss was one of the more experienced dog handlers
>>
>>
>
> She's more than a "dog handler"; among other things, she's a professional
>trainer.
>
> If you'd bothered to read all the posts, you wouldn't be asking questions
>that have already been answered.
>
Is she an EXPERT trainer, or has that already been answered?
>
>
>
sionnach
"Scott" wrote:
> Is she an EXPERT trainer, or has that already been answered?
<shrug> She's considered one of the best general trainers in our area; I've
met literally dozens of people who have been her clients and been happy with
the results.
-mi-chael3
Scott wrote:
> I just reread all the threads to this point. Janet never said that she
> started with the lowest level and worked her way up.
>
> You are making things up again.
Have fun with Sara Snip-Lie-ach,
and don't forget to watch my tribute to her!
> Sionnach wrote:
>
>> "Scott" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing." is one
>>> >heck
>>>
>>
>> of an intro. I was told that a yawn, twitch, scratch, or cock >of the
>> head
>> was typically a starting point.
>>
>> Again, if you'd bother to read THE ENTIRE THREAD, Janet quite clearly
>> stated that she started with the lowest level and worked her way up,
>> and the
>> dog never reacted.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com
BRILLIANT
http://dogtv.com/sionnach.wmv
-mi-chael3
Scott wrote:
BWHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!
sionnach
"diddy" wrote:
>. She doesn't find obedience titles of worth.
Many very skilled trainers don't. And most professional trainers - and
behaviourists- aren't dealing with people who want their dogs to perform by
rote in the ring; they're dealing with people who want to solve problems
with their dogs.
Furthermore, IME many people who are into competive obedience are
CLUELESS when it comes to dealing with difficult dogs, or handling dogs in
real-life situations.
Gwen Watson
sionnach wrote:
>
> Furthermore, IME many people who are into competive obedience are
>CLUELESS when it comes to dealing with difficult dogs, or handling dogs in
>real-life situations.
>
>
>
??????????
I don't understand what you are saying here at all. How can a person
who has trained many dogs to OTCH not understand dogs and RL
situations. It doesn't make sense to me.
Now whether it is something most ppl need to strive for is
a whole different story.
But personally I think a person like AnneMarie Silverton
and numerous others who have trained or aided
in training almost every breed there is to obtain
an OTCH must have an understanding of dogs.
Gwen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Scott
whose dog it was. I wasn't questioning Janet's ability to train her dog
or anyone elses. I was questioning the value of an e-collar on a dog,
any dog, who would not respond to it. I carelessly chose to use the
wrong pronoun. I apoligize to everyone I offended.
By the way, thanks for finding the quote for me. I hate having to find
past posts just to prove/disprove a you said, she said, he said.
Scott
the place, or at least I can't track all the posts. Again I apologize
if I misspoke.
Suja wrote:
I did find your reference, but it comes after my posts.
J1Boss
>"diddy" wrote:
>>. She doesn't find obedience titles of worth.
Geez - is Diddy spouting this crap again? I don't believe I have ever said
that obedience titles are without worth - nothing even close. That said, they
are also not the be-all and end-all to dog behavior - I've known way too many
dogs who do well in the ring and are not what you'd call great dogs in
day-to-day life. Sad but true.
I find obedience competition to be a lot of sit-around and wait, non-natural,
and a bit boring. That isn't the same as saying it's without worth and if
someone enjoys it and excels at it, I think that's GREAT!
I personally enjoy more active things with my dogs, just because I think we all
have more fun that way.
> Many very skilled trainers don't. And most professional trainers - and
>behaviourists- aren't dealing with people who want their dogs to perform by
>rote in the ring; they're dealing with people who want to solve problems
>with their dogs.
Bingo. Most of my private clients are aggression problems, not precision
heeling.
> Furthermore, IME many people who are into competive obedience are
>CLUELESS when it comes to dealing with difficult dogs, or handling dogs in
>real-life situations.
egads - isn't that the truth. Without going into detail, I cringed when an
instructor was giving behavior advice to a class student, clearly having no
understanding of the breed in question, etc.
J1Boss
>She trains
>dogs for a living and might have a CD on one of her dogs.
Only dog with a CD is deceased.
A VERY low
>obedience title.
The LOWEST! (but you knew that - didn't you?).
> She doesn't find obedience titles of worth.
BZZZT - wrong answer. I find them very worthwhile for those who enjoy that
activity - they are earned and owners should be proude. What have you title
dogs in again Diddy?
>She participates in flyball and agility.. dog sports.
Not agility - not yet anyway. Keep up with the program will you?
> She trains pet level
>dogs..
Depends on what you call pet level I guess. Dogs who try to eat the guests?
I've taught Novice (that's the class people go to to want to earn their CD -
just in case you're clueless) in the past but don't have the time right now.
J1Boss
>I do remember she did, she disclosed later some things she did not
>initially.
I didn't know this casual conversation was "full disclosure" required!
>but a good trainer uses it ONLY on a trained dog.
BZZZZZT - wrong!
> And they set up a dog to
>succeed. And even Amy Dahl suggested she didn't use it properly.
Not quite - I think you are once again reading things a bit skewed.
J1Boss
>In THAT case, training it to the E-collar and using a SIT to try it with is
>really poor introduction. A startled dog is unlikely to SIT. so you want to
>introduce a dog with an exercise where compliance is far more likely to be
>successful.
You really are a piece of work. The dog was far from startled. The dog knew a
sit and it's pretty much the simplest thing for the average to comply with.
> such as STOPPING a dog, which a distract/interrupt would
>hopefully do.
Stopping a dog from WHAT?
>It was a poor instance choice of use for introduction.
You have no clue what you're talking about.
J1Boss
>But if you applied the same level of standards to trainers, that you do to
>breeders, this would make you a puppymill, right?
HUH?
J1Boss
>I haven't seen anything to suggest yet that you used it properly. The
>discription so far has made me very uncomfortable for the dog, and So far,
>am not convinced that he wasn't being abused.
oh brother. he's a GSP. he adores me. he controls his owner however.
>You are just mad at me because I don't accept "EXPERT" watered down to
>someone who hangs a shingle out, and decides to start publicly training
>dogs as a business.
"Mad" at you? I don't get mad at people I don't know. I find you irritating
in your babbling, but "mad" - no. Have I ever used the word "expert" about
myself? I don't think I have. No shingle. No advertising even. I am first
and foremost a behavior counselor. Training goes along with that. Training
for titles of whatever sort is frosting.
Melinda Shore
J1Boss <j1b...@aol.com> wrote:
>>But if you applied the same level of standards to trainers, that you do to
>>breeders, this would make you a puppymill, right?
>HUH?
You know, like if a pig had wings it would be an angel.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bush's plans for the partial privatization of Social Security
would require about $1,000,000,000,000 in transition costs
J1Boss
>
>You know, like if a pig had wings it would be an angel.
>--
> Melinda Shore
ohhhhhhh - why couldn't I see that? Thanks for the enlightenment Melinda
(maybe you should take a look at your ability to read some others though! ;-D).
The Puppy Wizard
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
news:4063447B...@tooxtreem.nett...
>
> By the way, thanks for finding the quote for me. I hate having
to find
> past posts just to prove/disprove a you said, she said, he said.
You mean like this?:
sinofabitch writes:
> >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> >> posts from two different people,
> >> took pieces of them out of context,
> >> cobbled them together,
> >> then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> >>and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> >> Which is exactly what he did.
> >> The actual quote is misleading
> >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
> >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
>
> >Here's Jerry's version
>
> > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
>
> >Here's yours;
>
> > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > nipped her ear.
> > --Sara Sionnach
The Puppy Wizard
her HOWES after janet "trained" them.
"Scott" <sc...@tooxtreem.nett> wrote in message
news:40633C59...@tooxtreem.nett...
J1Boss
>Seems you have a truth in advertizing problem then: We also
>offer the "ask the expert" class which my business partner and I take turns
>with.
Actually, the SHELTER named the class, not me. I don't care what they call it.
DOA? Dog Owners Anonymous? "Help for Bad Dogs (and Cats)?"
>but more recently all this started when you got huffy because I said there
>were NO experts here. And you came back with, what's wRONG with you? You
>took exception to that, implying you felt expert enough.
Ummm - no. I took exception with your definition, which was very flawed. You
decided that I was defending myself as an expert, when I was merely pointing
out that your definition was pretty out there.
Melinda Shore
J1Boss <j1b...@aol.com> wrote:
>ohhhhhhh - why couldn't I see that? Thanks for the enlightenment Melinda
I am always happy to help act as an interpreter. For
example, when Diddy says "You ain't all that" what she
really means is "The only way I can feel okay about my dog
training skills is by pretending that nobody else is any
good, either."
We should start a meltdown pool.
Fly, little piggy, fly!
culprit
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94B7AB8...@216.196.97.132...
> but more recently all this started when you got huffy because I said there
> were NO experts here. And you came back with, what's wRONG with you? You
> took exception to that, implying you felt expert enough.
diddy, are you familiar with the term "projecting"? because i think that's
what you're doing here. "projecting" your anger, your frustration
you"huffy"ness on others.
it's quite unbecoming.
-kelly
Gwen Watson
J1Boss wrote:
>
> I've known way too many
>dogs who do well in the ring and are not what you'd call great dogs in
>day-to-day life. Sad but true.
>
Dogs with OTCH's aren't good in day to day life? I have not witnessed
this. I have seen actually the opposite. But I am no behaviorist who
sees dogs with OTHCs that aren't great dogs outside of the ring.
>
>
>I find obedience competition to be a lot of sit-around and wait, non-natural,
>and a bit boring. That isn't the same as saying it's without worth and if
>someone enjoys it and excels at it, I think that's GREAT!
>
I would hope there is no problem with persons that find obedience enjoyable.
Sure it isn't a fast action thing. Slow is a good way to define it but
it sure
is an accomplishment to obtain an OTCH and I just can't see a dog that
has been trained to this level not being a good dog. It seems rather
contridictory to all the training advice that is given here.
>
>I personally enjoy more active things with my dogs, just because I think we all
>have more fun that way.
>
Well sure there is nothing wrong with that. My trainer does Obedience,
Agility and tracking and she loves them all. Each for seperate reasons.
>
>
>>Many very skilled trainers don't. And most professional trainers - and
>>behaviourists- aren't dealing with people who want their dogs to perform by
>>rote in the ring; they're dealing with people who want to solve problems
>>with their dogs.
>>
>>
>
>Bingo. Most of my private clients are aggression problems, not precision
>heeling.
>
But that does not mean that a trainer that trains to OTCH level does
not understand how to handle RL dog situations. It just doesn't make
a bit of sense to me and seems quite opposite from the message
I have read on this board for years.
>
>
>
>> Furthermore, IME many people who are into competive obedience are
>>CLUELESS when it comes to dealing with difficult dogs, or handling dogs in
>>real-life situations.
>>
>>
>
>egads - isn't that the truth. Without going into detail, I cringed when an
>instructor was giving behavior advice to a class student, clearly having no
>understanding of the breed in question, etc.
>
>Janet Boss
>Best Friends Dog Obedience
>"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
>Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
>www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
>http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience
>
>
Was this instructor an instructor who has trained multi breeds
and their handlers to OTCH level?
Gwen
Melinda Shore
diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote:
>No, I wouldn't spend a dime to go to Melinda Shores dog training seminar on
>how to ruin a bedroom. thank you very much.
!! But I'm really good at it.
J1Boss
>
>Dogs with OTCH's aren't good in day to day life? I have not witnessed
>this. I have seen actually the opposite. But I am no behaviorist who
>sees dogs with OTHCs that aren't great dogs outside of the ring.
Wasn't specifying OTCh's. While I don;t keep track of what dogs I know have
OTCH points or don't, I can't say that I see poor behavior from the ones I
know. OTOH, dogs with UD's - too many of them.
>I would hope there is no problem with persons that find obedience enjoyable.
That's what I said - i think it's great for the owner and the dog. OTOH, I see
dogs who don't show joy in the work, and if the person doesn't, there's little
point. I applaud HIT's, the work that goes into that, the whole shebang.
>Sure it isn't a fast action thing. Slow is a good way to define it but
>it sure
>is an accomplishment to obtain an OTCH and I just can't see a dog that
>has been trained to this level not being a good dog. It seems rather
>contridictory to all the training advice that is given here.
Again - i don't think Sarah or I indicated OTCH dogs. I have known some pretty
everyday obnoxious UD's though.
>Well sure there is nothing wrong with that. My trainer does Obedience,
>Agility and tracking and she loves them all. Each for seperate reasons.
Exactly - different strokes for different folks. heck - even in agility there
are choices of venues. Isn't it great that there are so many things to do
with dogs that one can enjoy? I'd love to do more field work, but the training
sessions never match up with the rest of my schedule. I do whenever I can, and
Franklin loves ducks, but wish I could figure out how to carve more into our
lies without giving other things up. Seems like everything is on the same
days!
>
>But that does not mean that a trainer that trains to OTCH level does
>not understand how to handle RL dog situations. It just doesn't make
>a bit of sense to me and seems quite opposite from the message
>I have read on this board for years.
It depends. Take someone with an OTCH Golden. Would they necessarily know how
to deal with a Kuvasz who wouldn't let anyone in the house on rainy days only
(purely hypothetical!). Maybe someone with a more difficult breed may have
more insight than someone with an "easy" breed for instance.
>Was this instructor an instructor who has trained multi breeds
>and their handlers to OTCH level?
>
>Gwen
Most instructors haven't taught the breeds, they've taught the people -
remember that. Also - an excellent handler and teacher of dogs is not
necessarily a good teacher of people.
I don't know how many breeds this person is very familiar with, but her
comments about 2 breeds and their response to something was very off base (and
not uncommon breeds).
Like Diddy's definition of an "expert", your definition of someone very
accomplished in dog training is based on an OTCH. There is so much more to
dogs than that!
J1Boss
>>how to ruin a bedroom. thank you very much.
>
>!! But I'm really good at it.
>--
> Melinda Shore
I'll come - where are you holding it?;-D
I can teach a seminar on how to kill plants - I'm REALLY good at that!
culprit
> >
>
> kelly, its everyone ELSE angry at me. I'm not angry, I just like truth in
> advertising. YOU wouldn't know an expert if it ran over you. You are so
> overwhelmed by the knowledge HERE that you think you found heaven.
diddy, no one was angry at you until you started poking and prodding and
looking for blood. of course people will be upset when you attack them.
that's only human nature. i wish i could show you what your behavior looks
like to someone outside the conversation. i think you'd be surprised. i
believe that you don't know you're the instigator. but from here, it
certainly looks as though you are.
as for the rest... i didn't come here looking for "experts" of any kind,
and honestly, i could care less about who you think is qualified to do what.
this is exactly what i mean about your projecting. personally, i don't give
a shit who has what job title, as long as my dogs are happy and healthy.
and yeah, i've found some great advice here, as well as bad, and i've been
able to sort through it pretty easily. without worrying about who's an
'expert" and who is not.
so stop for a moment and take a deep breath. does it really matter at the
end of the day what anyone else here thinks? probably not. so why is it
worth arguing about?
-kelly
culprit
>
> It's not, but you for one, are always throwing in a snide comment and
> abusing people, ESPECIALLY newbies. As if you were one to talk. And it's
> not just my opinion because I've had others comment to me on the side
about
> you.
> So you might consider taking your own medicine.
damn, you really are going for the hat trick today, aren't you?
look, i tried.
bye, diddy.
-kelly
culprit
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040325174216...@mb-m04.aol.com...
>
> I can teach a seminar on how to kill plants - I'm REALLY good at that!
>
i'll teach a seminar on eating babies, without leaving a messy crime scene!
-kelly
Alison
The problem with this thread is thats it's got personal. I can't help
thinkng that if someone unknown and not had written this post, there
would have been more questions asked and some pointed comments
probably from Janet herself-:) .
I think if you are a trainer you have a responsibility towards the
dog and I think Janet should have stopped before she reached that
level for the reasons given below. I read your post , thanks for
explaining. I should really be addressing these remarks to Janet but I
know she'll read this ( Hi Janet!)
I know I wasn't there at the time but I feel there was a possibility
that the dog perhaps felt unsure or maybe intimidated and couldn't
respond to sit ,( that does happen !) If the dog had got a level 9
shock straight off, maybe it *would * have visibly reacted but
perhaps by starting off low and building up has a different affect
giving the dog time to adjust and bear it. (It's ok , I know you
don't start off at a high level ) Just because the dog didn't react as
Janet expected it to, it doesn't mean it didn't feel discomfort or
pain and animals are very stoic ( and people too.) Also what about the
physical risks to a dog , supposing it had something wrong with its
heart or perhaps a mild form of epilepsy that the owners didn't know
about ?
Alison
"sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3vf24$2blp8f$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
J1Boss
>I think if you are a trainer you have a responsibility towards the
>dog and I think Janet should have stopped before she reached that
>level for the reasons given below.
If there's no reaction whatsoever before reaching a level, why would you stop?
> I read your post , thanks for
>explaining. I should really be addressing these remarks to Janet but I
>know she'll read this ( Hi Janet!)
;-)
>I know I wasn't there at the time but I feel there was a possibility
>that the dog perhaps felt unsure or maybe intimidated and couldn't
>respond to sit ,( that does happen !)
I had worked with this dog many times. I believe the main problem is the owner
who never makes the dog comply, and he felt that in her presence, he could
ignore the e-collar along with her command. As soon as I got a physical
response (not an "active" one from the dog ever!), I ceased the use of the
tool, as it's effect was useless IMO.
> If the dog had got a level 9
>shock straight off, maybe it *would * have visibly reacted
I would never do such a thing!
>but
>perhaps by starting off low and building up has a different affect
>giving the dog time to adjust and bear it. (It's ok , I know you
>don't start off at a high level )
Possibly, but generally if a dog is reacting (or noticing it even), there is
SOME flicker of recognition. I;ve used the same collar on a deaf dog with
great results.
>Just because the dog didn't react as
>Janet expected it to, it doesn't mean it didn't feel discomfort or
>pain and animals are very stoic ( and people too.)
That can be a possibility, but keep in mind the breed here - and the many
comments about the breed. GSP's are just bizarre dogs! ;-D
>Also what about the
>physical risks to a dog , supposing it had something wrong with its
>heart or perhaps a mild form of epilepsy that the owners didn't know
>about ?
Well, I don't think that's all that likely. The dog is an adult.
michael
culprit wrote:
> "diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns94B7B15...@216.196.97.132...
>
>
>
>>kelly, its everyone ELSE angry at me. I'm not angry, I just like truth in
>>advertising. YOU wouldn't know an expert if it ran over you. You are so
>>overwhelmed by the knowledge HERE that you think you found heaven.
>
>
> diddy, no one was angry at you until you started poking and prodding and
> looking for blood. of course people will be upset when you attack them.
> that's only human nature. i wish i could show you what your behavior looks
> like to someone outside the conversation.
It looks great to me.
> i think you'd be surprised. i
> believe that you don't know you're the instigator. but from here, it
> certainly looks as though you are.
Janet Boss is an imbecile.
Janet Boss is incompetent.
Look no further than her own dogs.
> so stop for a moment and take a deep breath. does it really matter at the
> end of the day what anyone else here thinks? probably not. so why is it
> worth arguing about?
then why are you arguing?
I hope that heelps.
> -kelly
>
>
--
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com
BRILLIANT
http://dogtv.com/sionnach.wmv
culprit
"michael" <mic...@spamdogtv.com> wrote in message
news:IRL8c.11679762$Of.19...@news.easynews.com...
>> i wish i could show you what your behavior looks
> > like to someone outside the conversation.
>
>
> It looks great to me.
exactly.
HTH!!!
-kelly
not an EXPERT
but i think my dogs are cuter than yours!.
here's Lola: http://groups.msn.com/culprit/lola.msnw
and here's Manu: http://groups.msn.com/culprit/manu.msnw
no titles, no ribbons, no certificates, but they're a joy to live with, so
who cares.