Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

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Paul E. Schoen

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Sep 15, 2006, 11:01:39 PM9/15/06
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I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
me and the commands he was given. Also, he managed to make it pop open and
it had to be refastened.

This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of heavier
gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded, which I think
should pose less chance of damage than the more roughly cut ends of the
smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when I pick him up from a friend
who has been keeping him while I've been out of town.

The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.

If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
future adoption.

Thanks,

Paul


Jeff Dege

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Sep 15, 2006, 11:11:24 PM9/15/06
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On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:

>
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
> they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
> appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
> looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>
> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
> chance for success.

Great idea.

Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.

Listen to your dog.

Most of them really hate head collars. Some will learn to tolerate them,
many will not.

--
.Sig?

Todd H.

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Sep 16, 2006, 12:11:46 AM9/16/06
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"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:

> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
> choker chain collar,

Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.

> but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
> and the commands he was given.

Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.

> Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.

Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
middle of the collar will fix that.

> This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
> heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
> which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
> roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
> I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
> out of town.
>
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
> they really should be outlawed.

Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.

Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
new handler?

> She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
> combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
> like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
I'd say.

> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
> chance for success.
>
> If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
> decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
> to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
> do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
> future adoption.

The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
sized correctly.

Good luck with the training!

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Paul E. Schoen

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Sep 16, 2006, 1:46:24 AM9/16/06
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"Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.16....@jdege.visi.com...
Thanks for your comments. I like to try and "listen" to what my animals are
trying to tell me. I am more used to cats, but have learned in my six
months with Muttley that dogs can be very expressive as well. He seems to
be able to tell me when he needs attention, and that has been very helpful
in building a feeling of mutual trust. Hopefully one of the collars,
properly fitted and used, will help him (and me) concentrate on training,
and then hopefully will not be needed again once he learns to listen to me
rather than following his nose.

Paul


Paul E. Schoen

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Sep 16, 2006, 2:18:49 AM9/16/06
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"Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:84lkok3...@ripco.com...

> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
>
>> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
>> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
>> choker chain collar,
>
> Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
> they try to strain at the chain.
>
With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
nose somewhere.

>> but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
>> and the commands he was given.
>
> Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
> experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
> correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.
>

The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.

>> Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.
>
> Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
> middle of the collar will fix that.
>

Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
a pair of links, not at the clip.

>> This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
>> heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
>> which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
>> roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
>> I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
>> out of town.
>>
>> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
>> they really should be outlawed.
>
> Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
> look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.
>

This was a middle aged woman at a Tractor Supply Company store, which
specializes in rural animal needs. She may have been the same one who
warned me to watch my dog when he chewed on rawhide pieces. Muttley is very
careful (and efficient) when he eats them.

> Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
> know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
> bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
> pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
> you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
> new handler?
>

Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.

>> She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
>> combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
>> like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
>> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>
> I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
> not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
> I'd say.
>

The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
the choker chain.

>> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
>> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have
>> the
>> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the
>> best
>> chance for success.
>>
>> If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
>> decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley
>> seems
>> to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like
>> to
>> do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training
>> for
>> future adoption.
>
> The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
> and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
> sized correctly.
>
> Good luck with the training!
>
> Best Regards,
> --

Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.

Paul


Todd H.

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Sep 16, 2006, 2:44:52 AM9/16/06
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"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
> "Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:84lkok3...@ripco.com...
> > "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
> >
> >> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
> >> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
> >> choker chain collar,
> >
> > Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
> > they try to strain at the chain.
> >
> With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
> until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
> down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
> me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
> nose somewhere.

I watched a trainer take care of that with a couple similarly strong
willed dogs with a few "OUT!" corrections delivered well, and with a
quick and simple praise when they stopped the offending behavior.

It's possible that by kneeling down next to him and attempting to
settle him that you may be unwittingly encouraging the behavior that
led you to comfort it.


> The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
> also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.

Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
fact may have led to the release of the clasp.


> Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
> become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
> a pair of links, not at the clip.

Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?

> Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
> sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
> then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
> off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
> him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
> distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
> be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.

Sounds reasonable. He sounds like a beast. :-)

> Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
> a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
> willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
> while.

Yeah you've probably got your work cut out for you, but from what I've
seen in the 10wk obedience class recently finished, you should be
seeing some impressive results if you put in the daily work with him
and learn the handling techniques, timing of corrections, when not to
give eye contact, and all that jazz. It sounds like your dog needs
to learn that he the lowest number on the totem pole at your house,
and that when you're training, he needs to be focused on his new pack
leader, and that pulling like that is simply not acceptable behavior.

With enough correction, and well-timed genuine praise immediatley
after he breaks off the bad behavior, he will eventually "get" that
the place to be is at your heel and that bad things happen when he
starts to pull.

Good luck!

TaraG

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Sep 16, 2006, 2:43:54 AM9/16/06
to

"Todd H." <i...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:841wqcm...@ripco.com...

> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:

>> The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the
>> leash
>> also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.
>
> Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
> fact may have led to the release of the clasp.

Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon slip,
to be specific)
A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the use
of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.

>> Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may
>> have
>> become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened
>> between
>> a pair of links, not at the clip.
>
> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?

Its definitely NOT a "recipe for disaster". In my opinion, using a prong
collar solo without any sort of safety mechanism for if/when the collar
opens on its own is a "recipe" of its own.

To the OP (Paul), while I don't go to the prong collar as a first option, I
also find that enough dogs have issues with head collars that Muttley might
have to tell you which one he a) responds to most quickly and b) prefers
(and, yes, this is second in priority). The larger prongs might not be the
best idea....and I have yet to see the rounded nubs help *anything* besides
the owner's conscience. The dog pulls harder, and then ultimately learns to
pull *through* the prong with those plugs at the end. Again, you'll find out
when its actually *on* Muttley, and when your trainer has a chance to see
you guys in action in person.

I did have to interject when I saw the above statements from Todd, though.

Tara


Handsome Jack Morrison

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Sep 16, 2006, 9:31:45 AM9/16/06
to
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:

>> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
>> they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
>> appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
>> looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
>> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>>
>> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
>> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
>> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
>> chance for success.
>
>Great idea.

Not in my opinion.

He's collar shopping without any input from his trainer? How smart is
that?

He's also obviously expecting the collar itself to be some kind of
silver bullet. I can almost hear his gears grinding from here: "Gee,
if I can just find the right kind of collar, Muttley will transform
himself into Lassie overnight! I'll be the toast of the town!"

It's not the freakin' collar! It's never the freakin' collar!

It's the TRAINING. It's always the TRAINING.

>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>
>Listen to your dog.

Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.

He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.

What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?

He's already anthropomorphizing the prong collar, by thinking that the
kind with smooth tips will somehow be more "kind" to his dog, etc. And
he's also listening to people who sell dog food for a living, instead
of listening to people who actually train dogs for a living.

How smart is that?

I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.

Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

A very, very brave woman dies - Oriana Fallaci. R.I.P.
(read her books, while you still can)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005934.htm
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/09/in_memoriam.php
The Iraqi Truth Project:
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Payback's gonna be a real bitch.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/10/a_new_low_in_bush_hatred/
Deranged Democrat Watch
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The "Azzam" Threat: A prelude to Future Jihad in America:
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Border War. Another must-see movie.
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Playing with fire, the commie pinko liberal way:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23365246-details/President+Bush+assassinated+in+new+TV+docudrama/article.do

flick

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Sep 16, 2006, 10:48:19 AM9/16/06
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"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:450b9753$0$21536$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

<snipped>

> With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
> until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
> down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus
> on me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow
> his nose somewhere.

This isn't how to use a prong collar. See your trainer.

> The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
> head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
> his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
> who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
> forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
> corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
> the choker chain.

The last time I took a dog through a formal beginner's obedience class was
decades ago. We ALL had prong collars on our dogs.

You control the dog through its training. I think a Halti is useful as an
emergency control measure, or if you've got a particularly powerful dog,
until the dog is trained. To me, a Halti is not a training tool.

> Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
> a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
> willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
> while.

He doesn't know what you want, yet - he isn't trained, yet. You'll learn
how to size and use that prong collar in class, and all will become clear,
Grasshopper ;-).

flick 100785


flick

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Sep 16, 2006, 10:51:13 AM9/16/06
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"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:K2NOg.33$x11.20@trndny02...
>

> Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
> NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon
> slip, to be specific)
> A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the
> use of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.

I've never had a prong collar fail like this. The ones I have, if you want
to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers and
pull hard to get it separate.

flick 100785


George Anderson

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Sep 16, 2006, 11:27:58 AM9/16/06
to
As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used will
stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size they
come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head collar on the dog will
probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
head collar with nice things. When you start to walk him with it on, have
him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon stop
pulling.


George Anderson
dogg...@virgin.net
When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
it is the bark you should heed.


"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message

news:450b6916$0$21518$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

TaraG

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Sep 16, 2006, 11:27:32 AM9/16/06
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"flick" <fl...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:42d54$450c0f83$94402b1b$12...@STARBAND.NET...

With pliers? Every time you put it on and take it off? I doubt that. They
can be tough, but no company I'm aware of makes them impossible for human
hands to use.

It happens maybe one in every hundred or so dogs....but in NYC, that's often
enough to warrant the backup system, because that one dog can end up running
straight into traffic.

Tara


TaraG

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Sep 16, 2006, 11:45:54 AM9/16/06
to

"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
> using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned,

As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods, I think this type of
thinking is narrowminded, and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about
equipment.

And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.

By the way, most Behaviorists don't also call themselves Dog Trainers. I was
looking into becoming a Behaviorist, but I couldn't justify the extra years
of schooling, so I stuck with Dog Trainer. Where did you go for your
Behavioral Degree?

> if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.

This is bizarre. You have no idea what problems this guy has been having
with his dog. You have no idea how much actual work he is willing to (or in
a position to) put into this dog. You have no idea what factors went into
that decision. And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical statement
like that?

Wow.

> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
> will
> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
> they
> come is sizes 0 to 5.

They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs. Which is why I stopped using
them regularly shortly after I stopped using the prong. All thing being
equal, I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong a lot more
easily than they took to the head collar.

When judging the cruelty/kindness factor of a method or piece of equipment,
I like to make sure I'm using the actual DOG as the barometer....not what
*I* would prefer. They are often different answers. I saw far too many dogs
panic when the owners would (understandably) rush the adjustment process.
And, I'm sorry, but any piece of equipment that takes up to two weeks to get
a dog to accept is NOT intrinsically kinder.

> When you first put the head collar on the dog will
> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
> head collar with nice things.

You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues if you think
that's how it always works. There are plenty of dogs that need slow
desensitization for a week or more before they're comfortable enough to have
pressure applied to their snouts.

> When you start to walk him with it on, have
> him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
> to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
> body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon
> stop
> pulling.

Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness so as not to freak out
his dog by putting scary things on his nose. Or he could do what he's doing
since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty good and has been posting
here for *years*, with real live students who have also posted here) who has
actually laid hands on this dog and who has observed the interactions and
behaviors first hand.

While there are plenty of tools I would probably never see the need to use
on a dog, the call to ban certain those things just to mollify those who
don't understand them is beyond me.

Tara


flick

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Sep 16, 2006, 12:21:18 PM9/16/06
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"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:EJUOg.2107$Se.2012@trndny03...

>
>
> With pliers? Every time you put it on and take it off? I doubt that. They
> can be tough, but no company I'm aware of makes them impossible for human
> hands to use.

I forget that not everybody has my hand strength problems. My bad.

> It happens maybe one in every hundred or so dogs....but in NYC, that's
> often enough to warrant the backup system, because that one dog can end up
> running straight into traffic.

What I use for a backup with the Saint is this harness thing that tends to
lift up his front end if he pulls hard, or at least puts pressure there.
One leash to that, one leash to the prong collar, they're in different
places and don't get tangled. I don't use the backup very often any more,
though, myself. The kids do, as extra insurance. He's well trained now,
but I prefer not to bet his life on that in certain circumstances.

flick 100785


Jeff Dege

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 1:12:15 PM9/16/06
to
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>
>>Listen to your dog.
>
> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>
> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>
> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?

Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on
dogs - when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.

If you have a trainer who is watching the dog, to see how he responds to
various training tools, great. If not, you're going to have to watch the
dog yourself.

Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
They teach people how to train their own dogs.

The trainer is a resource. An important and valuable resource, or your
wasting your money, but only one resource of many.

--
Liberty, at bottom, is a simple thing, whatever its outward forms.
It is common faith in man, common good will, common tolerance and charity,
common decency, no less and no more. Translated into political terms, it
is the doctrine that the normal citizen of a civilized state is actually
normal - that the decency which belongs naturally to homo sapiens, as an
animal above the brutes, is really in him. It holds that this normal
citizen may be trusted, one day with another, to do the decent thing.
It relies upon his natural impulses, and assumes them to be sound.
Finally, it is the doctrine that if these assumptions are false, then
nothing can be done about it - and if human beings are actually so bad,
then none is good enough to police the rest.
- H. L. Mencken

Jeff Dege

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 1:18:35 PM9/16/06
to
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:27:58 +0000, George Anderson wrote:

> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
> a prong collar,

As a radical skinnerian cultist, rather.

> these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.

Why? Because dogs find the aversive? That's the whole point.

> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used will
> stop your dog pulling,

Except, of course, that nine of ten dogs find simply wearing a headcollar
to be aversive - which they do no with a prong.

Which is better? To have the dog wear a prong that does not cause him
discomfort or pain, except at the specific moment that the handler decides
to impose a correction, or to have the dog wear a headcollar that causes
him constant distress?

The latter, of course, if you're a purely positive extremists. Because
the official canon of the purely positive cultists is that prongs are
always bad and headcollars are always good, regardless of what the dogs
thinks about it.

--
For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat, and wrong.
-- H. L. Mencken

Handsome Jack Morrison

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 1:35:25 PM9/16/06
to
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:12:15 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>>
>>>Listen to your dog.
>>
>> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>>
>> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>>
>> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
>> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
>
>Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on
>dogs - when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.

But that's for his *trainer* to decide, not Shoen.

Janet is in the best position to SHOW Schoen how to properly fit any
collar, to use it properly, and to SHOW him how to do all of the
above.

And hopefully without any interference from a lady who sells dog food
for a living.

Thus far, Schoen sounds exactly like Leah Redux (presuming that you
know who Leah is.)

>If you have a trainer who is watching the dog, to see how he responds to
>various training tools, great. If not, you're going to have to watch the
>dog yourself.

Schoen knows so little about dogs, dog behavior, and dog training,
that he's not in a position right now to determine much of anything by
simply watching his dog.

Schoen should rely on Janet's experience, knowledge, ability (all of
which are considerable), or he should get himself another trainer.

Too many cooks spoil the broth, and too many trainers ruin the dog.

Especially when one of those "trainers" sells dog food for a living.

>Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
>They teach people how to train their own dogs.

And if you're going to pay them your hard-earned mony to do that, it
behooves you to listen to them, not your dog.

And certainly not to a lady who sells dog food for a living.

>The trainer is a resource. An important and valuable resource, or your
>wasting your money, but only one resource of many.

It's the *primary* resource, and s/he deserves the clients undivided
attention.

If Schoen then becomes unhappy with the progress or the results, find
another trainer.

Message has been deleted

Handsome Jack Morrison

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 3:40:18 PM9/16/06
to
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:27:58 GMT, "George Anderson"
<dogg...@virgin.net> wrote:

>As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
>a prong collar,

[...]

Crap.

Not another doofus. Just what we need - more doofuses.

<SIGH>

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Finally! The WHO gets one right. DDT okay again for developing countries, Africa.
http://instapundit.com/archives/032591.php
Lancing a boil or two is messy work:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/09/15/benedicts-blunder-was-partly-media-enhanced/
Two words for Muslims angry at Pope Benedict:
http://bamapachyderm.com/archives/2006/09/15/message-to-muslims-angry-at-pope-benedict/

Paul E. Schoen

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 4:14:48 PM9/16/06
to

"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:S_UOg.48$zs6.47@trndny07...

>
> "George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
>> using
>> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned,
>
> As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods, I think this type of
> thinking is narrowminded, and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about
> equipment.
>
> And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.
>
I would like to know more about positive training methods.

[snip]


>
>> if your
>> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest
>> you
>> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
>
> This is bizarre. You have no idea what problems this guy has been having
> with his dog. You have no idea how much actual work he is willing to (or
> in a position to) put into this dog. You have no idea what factors went
> into that decision. And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical
> statement like that?
>

I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment and methods for my
reluctant initiation into the world of dog training. I can see that there
are some very strong opposing viewpoints, and all probably have some
validity. I would like to get good results fairly quickly without investing
too much time and effort, partly because I am overwhelmed with other issues
at this time, and also because I hope to be able to give Muttley to a new
owner who can invest the needed time and (tough) love required. It becomes
increasingly hard for me to consider giving him to someone else, as I
continue to bond with him and see his progress and experience his affection
for me.

>> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
>> will
>> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
>> they come is sizes 0 to 5.
>
> They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs. Which is why I stopped
> using them regularly shortly after I stopped using the prong. All thing
> being equal, I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong a
> lot more easily than they took to the head collar.
>

[snip]

> You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues if you think
> that's how it always works. There are plenty of dogs that need slow
> desensitization for a week or more before they're comfortable enough to
> have pressure applied to their snouts.
>

[snip]

> Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness so as not to freak out
> his dog by putting scary things on his nose. Or he could do what he's
> doing since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty good and has been
> posting here for *years*, with real live students who have also posted
> here) who has actually laid hands on this dog and who has observed the
> interactions and behaviors first hand.
>

Yes, you probably know that I am going to classes generously offered by
Janet for no charge, provided that I intend to offer him for adoption. At
the class last week, she was not there, and the instructor suggested and
supplied the small prong collar, which required adding extra prongs to fit
around Muttley's large neck. I could see some improvement, but then I also
had the problem where the collar came loose. The other instructor said that
Janet believes the smaller prongs work better, but she personally thinks
the larger prongs are better for some larger dogs like her St Bernard.
Janet will be there this Tuesday and hopefully we can decide what may work
best. I'll try the new collars tonight when I get Muttley back, and get a
feel for his reactions. Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not
have time to fully evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also not be
good to try the collars too soon after he returns to me. He may need a day
to readjust.

> While there are plenty of tools I would probably never see the need to
> use on a dog, the call to ban certain those things just to mollify those
> who don't understand them is beyond me.
>
> Tara

Hopefully you all can see that I am trying to do what is in Muttley's best
interests, as well as trying to maintain my own sanity. He is a smart,
lovable dog, and after six months he has become a very special friend.
However, he really deserves a home where he can run in a fenced area, with
a more energetic owner who can devote more time and love for him. I do not
regret the moment I decided to save him from being put down by the SPCA
because they had no room for him, but it has caused me many difficulties
that I was not fully prepared to handle. He has made good progress from
being a wild Alpha pack leader to a trustworthy and protective housemate
and good buddy, but I don't want to continue having to keep him and Photon
separate. His needs require most of my time, and Photon must hide or stay
outside.

For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:

www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc.

Thanks,

Paul


Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 4:37:10 PM9/16/06
to
HOWEDY George,

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"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message


> news:450b6916$0$21518$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
>> obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
>> collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
>> me and the commands he was given.

> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that


> you are using a prong collar, these things are barbaric and
> should be banned,

INDEEDY. HOWEver, HOWER DOG LOVERS PREFER
jerkin chokin shockin bribin intimidating crating mutilatin
and murderin innocent defenseless dumb critters to compensate
for their fragile defective egos, weak fearful minds and colossal
inferiority complexes <{) : ~ ( >

paulie has been jerkin an chokin his dog to make IT friends
with his HOWEskat for six months or so, George. HE WANTS
TO HURT HIS DOG, George.

We're dealin with MENTAL ILLNESS, not inadequate /
insufficient / inapupriate / medieval TRAININ TOOLS
and incompetent "methods", George.

> if your trainer is recommending a prong collar

Here's paul's "TRAINER", janet boss:

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS
> TO TRAIN THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
------------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:

> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.

yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

> I would very strongly suggest you find another class
> to attend where these things are not used or allowed.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment

INDEEDY. It was designed by Dra. Alice DeGroote.

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard talked
to Dra. DeGroote again a couple months ago. She was HORRIFIED
what's become of her USEFUL training tool <{) : ~ ( >

It's been totally misued, modified and plagiarized
by unethickal dog abusin cowards like we got here.

> and if properly used will stop your dog pulling,

RIGHT. Particularly on dogs who've got a long history
of being jerked choked and shocked by these pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin dog murderin mental cases.

> your first consideration is get the right size they
> come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head
> collar on the dog will probably not like it

It takes MINUTES to EXXXTINGUISH the dog's objection to it.

> so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him
> so that he sees the head collar with nice things.

You mean DESPITE that:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."

> When you start to walk him with it on, have him on
> your left side and hold the lead in your right hand,
> when he starts to pull, gently pull his head round
> towards you,

AND RELEASE the tension on the halter.

> this will bring his whole body round

UNLESS you FAIL to INSTANTLY RELEASE
the tension on the halter when the dog faces the
correct direction.

> which stops him pulling,

NOT if you don't RELEASE the tension on the head halter
AS SOON AS he faces straight ahead <{) : ~ ( >

> practice with this and he will soon stop pulling.

In just a couple minutes, if you know HOWE to pupperly
handle the head halter, JUST LIKE HOWE you'd handle
any other collar IF YOU KNOW HOWE to pupperly
handle a leash or halter or line on ANY critter, horsey,
doggy, or even a BIG FISH on a lite line <{} ; ~ ) >

It's ALL the same same.

> George Anderson
> dogg...@virgin.net
> When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
> it is the bark you should heed.

INDEEDY.

Punishment ALWAYS Deranges Behavior.
"NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function
EXCEPT
To DERANGE Behaviors.

Here's professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM NO! into ITS face for
five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer of the Department of ANAL-ytic Behavior at UofWI, pryor:

From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.­),

--Marshall


Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"


From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) -
Date: 1998/08/28
Subject: Re: Puppy growls and snaps

In article <6s6ea0$8c...@uwm.edu> der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
Dermer) writes: In article <35E60819.65178...@pilot.msu.edu>
> >tami sutherland <suthe...@pilot.msu.edu> writes:

>> However, there have been incidences where she has
>> growled and snapped at us...for instance, when we
>> were trying to dry her off after bathtime.

> When your three-month old pooch growls or snaps, IMMEDIATELY
> pick her up ONLY by the skin at the back of her neck, for 5
> sec, and loudly say, "NO!" Alternatively, say "NO!" and hold
> her mouth shut for say 15 sec.

> If she so snaps that you can't do the above then you
> will have to find another way to administer a prompt
> correction, for example, throwing a can filled with
> pennies, or a tug on the collar. --Marshall

"Oops! I would start by only holing her mouth
shut for say 5 sec.

At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

P.S. Contacting Dr. P:

Please note that due to the large number of
requests I receive, I can no longer give free,
personal advice on problems related to dog
training and behavior.

In order for me to give such advice we would
have to "talk" about the problem at length.

That is, I would need detailed information about
the dog, it's environment and routine, the problem,
and the situation in which the problem occurs.

Thus, this type of consultation takes time which
I cannot afford to give away for free.

If you wish such advice, please see the information
I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting
practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal
advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, &
newsgroup discussions.

P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!

YOU'RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!

Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And
Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS
BUSINESS.

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400

Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.

I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.

There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.

Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology


Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:

"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.

From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,

I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.

You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent­,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts ­to
alert the world to animal abuse.

We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.

Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?

In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.

--Marshall Dermer

Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"

< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.

'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.

>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are

Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?

Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman

=====================

> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus

<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>

> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

Robert Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.

This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.

The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.

To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.

Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.

"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.

Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.

> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.

> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

>Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad.

Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)

===========

Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:26:31 GMT

Subject: Dr. George VonHilshimer Writes: "No Loving, No Learning."

HOWEDY People,

Perhaps the PROBLEM is "TOO MANY WORDS?"

From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop

> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.

> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.

> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that
> > > leap.

> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.

> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:

Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.

> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.

This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.

Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;

Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;

Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;

The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;

Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .

There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.

I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.

NO PUNISHMENT.

Must pay attention to who is the animal?

His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.

I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than
the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.

Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.

Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.

You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.

Fondly, Dr. Von

From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com)
The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method

I have studied canine behavior and dog training for
years. I have a huge library that covers every system
of training.

The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training
Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced,
the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training
method yet discovered.

It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is
a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem
and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically
consistent manner.

Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to
understand the basis of his system and please follow
his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece.
It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed
descriptions about why behavior problems occur and
how their solution should be approached.

One should not pick and choose from among his methods
based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is
not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system
for not only training a dog but for raising a loving companion.

When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for
you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it
produces for your dog the owner of his dreams.

You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle
with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you
praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you
will become the center of your dogs world, if you use
Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes
just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your
dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15
seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to
lie quietly and let me clip his nails).

Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction /
praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes to
train you dog to respond to your commands.

What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old
puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would
carry him in response to my recall command-and he
comes running every time I call no matter where we are
or what he is doing.

At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon
his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and
his Family Pack Leadership exercises.

Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you
scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him,
if you force him then his natural response is to oppose
you.

Is Jerry a nut?

It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not.
It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based
upon their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry
wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when
he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding or
hurting dogs.

More than that, he knows that force is not effective
and that it will certainly lead to behavior problems;
sometime problems so severe that people put their
dogs down because of those problems.

I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control
their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been
at our wits' end, haven't we?

Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific
literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs
respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind
to praise.

Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he
wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise.
You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will
dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate
along with their anxiety.

Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End
Training Method as a scientific principle just as you
would the law of gravity and you will have astounding
success.

Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.

If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet
little Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little
gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?). --Larry

From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST

> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?

It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.

Works like a charm.

My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.

Sorry that slipped my mind.

I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.

Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.

Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.

Seemed he learned through osmosis.

Nice side benefit there.

It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.

I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.

I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.

I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.

Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.

Mike

"Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote:

No, the dog learned that I would hold still
the second she began to pull. She would pull
to go where *she* wanted.

Well if she wanted to stop and go in another
direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard..

she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop
walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't
enough slack on her lead she would just pull me.

Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl
heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go"
and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i
looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes
waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission
to go again.

I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her
stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie.

I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose
pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective..

we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i
followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them...
and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only
when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was
better than what she wanted.. which was not often.

She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she
could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry...
he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me
his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the
pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help
at 10pm on a sunday night.

One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after
the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag
down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and
never had tension.

two men were acrossed the street and she walked right
by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us.

And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he
even looked like he was going near my husband or kids..
is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing
gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside..

actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in
the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since
she's 19 months old and has never had a litter.

She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's
dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by
and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting
to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box
and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half.

She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat.

---------------

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400

You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.

I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.

This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!

The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.

Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.

A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.

Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.

The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.

The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.

They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)

Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.

It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.

One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!

Even Skinner understood this!

And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.

Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:

I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.

At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.

I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.

I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.

I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.

At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when
I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"

I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."

*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)

As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!

Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.

When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"

The results can make a believer!!!

Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.

He just seemed to not notice any one.

When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.

I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.

If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.

My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!

I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

================================

From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.

We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.

I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-

- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.

They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

----------------------------------

("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
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_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
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|\ _.-'~~""'~`'~)
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|,4) ./ ' ; ;/'
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_.--'' _.-_..' .;.'
(,_..----''' (,..--''

Meow

/\_/\
(='.'=)
(")_(")

/),,/)
( ' ; ') kiss me
(,,)-(,,)

/),,/)
(' ; ') kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

/),,/)
( ; ' ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

/),,/)
( ; ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

/)
( * ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)

/|/\
(.)(.)
( (_) )
> - <

|\ _,,,---,,_
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' Ahhh, THANK YOU!
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >

<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>

Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.

IT AIN'T PRETTY.

<(@}; ~ } >

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 5:11:12 PM9/16/06
to
HOWEDY jeff you pathetic incompetent miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable mental case,

Jeff Dege wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:27:58 +0000, George Anderson wrote:
>
> > As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified
> > to read that you are using a prong collar,

Of curse.

> As a radical skinnerian cultist, rather.

That's meaningless DHOWEBLETALK, jeffie.

We can ALL learn from EVERYWON.

Even HITLER had some GOOD IDEAS, remember jeffie?

> > these things are barbaric and should be banned,

Of curse. But FIRST, shouldn't we have a METHOD
to REPLACE hurtin intimidatin an murderin innocent
defenseless dumb critters an LYIN abHOWET IT?

> > if your trainer is recommending a prong collar I would
> > very strongly suggest you find another class to attend
> > where these things are not used or allowed.

INDEEDY. So long as the "trainer" don't rely on
BRIBERY and AVOIDANCE, instead.

> Why?

You mean HOWE COME, don't you, jeffie.

> Because dogs find the aversive?

You mean on accHOWENT of dogs find 'THEM' aversive, jeffie?

> That's the whole point.

You mean, that the dog WON'T LIKE bein jerked an choked, jeffie?

That's no surprise. IN FACT, THAT'S HOWE COME YOU
CAN'T TRAIN YOUR OWN DOGS, ain't that correct, jeffie?:

> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:15:50 -0600, Jeff Dege
> j...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:

> Off leash, he's fine, in some places. We spend a good amount of
> time in the yard, with him wearing only the electronic collar.
> And in the yard, I've not needed to correct him since September.
>
> It's in those places where he isn't so fine that you need to work
> with him. Until each one eventually becomes just another place.
> Presumably that's somewhere with so-called distractions?

One consequence of finding an aversive that works - that is actually
acting as a negative reinforcement instead of merely as an irritant -
is that it very quickly changes the behavior of the dog.

Lindsay writes about a study in which a number of dogs who suffered
from obsessive licking were treated with a protocol using electronic
collars. They had an 80% success rate - with a mean of six stims over
only a few weeks.

Dogs learn contextually - each behavior is learned only in
the context that it is taught in. We need to reteach the
behavior in many different contexts before it is learned in
any general sense.

But with the e-collar, Bear has learned to stay close,
when told, or to come, when called, that if we never
went anywhere new he'd appear to be perfectly trained.

I need to actively seek out new places, and new
distractions, in order to progress with his training.
-------

> > The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment
> > and if properly used will stop your dog pulling,

INDEEDY.

HOWEver, these MENTAL CASES prefer to use them
like HOWE they use their pronged spiked pinch choke
and slip choke collars, to force, hurt and intimidate dogs.

> Except, of course, that nine of ten dogs find
> simply wearing a headcollar to be aversive -

Yeah, on accHOWENT of dog abusin mental cases think
they can put them on and FORCE and INTIMDIATE the
dog into SUBMISSION.

THAT'S HOWE COME the so called GENTLE LEADER
was invented by a N.A.D.O.I. instructor with the heelp of
her veterinary behaviorist, on accHOWENT of the K-9
Kum-A-Long WASN'T BUILT to HURT dogs <{): ~ ) >

The G.L. won't slip off when you HURT your dog with it.
IN FACT, the INSTRUCTIONS are to put the head collar
on TIGHT enough that the dog CAN'T SLIP HOWET of
it *(which IMMEDIATELY triggers the opposition reflex)
and run the length of the lead under the dog's front leg and
throw the dog ass over bucket when IT pulls in objection to
the head halter bein TOO TIGHT, consequently SUBORDINATING
the dog an teachin IT, LEADERSHIP, eh jeffie?

> which they do no with a prong.

You mean, you don't gotta CONDITION the dog to PAIN
FORCE FEAR and INTIMIDATION when you use PRONGS.

> Which is better?

You mean, jerkin an chokin on your pronged spiked pinch
choke collar Vs jerkin an chokin on your G.L. or Halti Vs
shocking and beatin IT with a stick, jeffie?

It's all the same same, AIN'T IT, jeffie?

IT AIN'T the TOOL, EXXXCEPT of curse, JUST WEARING
the PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION INFLICTION
DEVICE increases fear and inhibits learning, teaches mistrust
and makes dogs GO INSANE and GETS THEM DEAD.

JUST LIKE HOWE offerin and witHOWELDING bribes does, eh jeffie?

> To have the dog wear a prong that does not cause him
> discomfort or pain, except at the specific moment that
> the handler decides to impose a correction,

You mean, kinda like livin in a combat zone where you
NEVER KNOW WHEN you're GONNA GET HURT.

Hey jeffie? You assHOWELS been tellin us the DOG
does the HURTIN, you call it SELF CORRECTING,
remember jeffie?

> or to have the dog wear a headcollar that causes him constant distress?

Dogs DO NOT object to the head halter UNLESS you
don't know HOWE to CONDITION the dog to bein
comfortable wearing and using it, jeffie.

That MEANS you gotta STOP TRYIN to HURT the dog with it.

> The latter, of course, if you're a purely positive extremists.

No, jeffie. IF you was a "purely positive EXXXTREMIST"
you WOULDN'T, no, you COULDN'T rely on ANY of
the so called TRAININ METHODS and TOOLS you
pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murdrin mental
cases PREFER to use, WOULD YOU, jeffie <{) : ~ ) >

> Because the official canon of the purely positive cultists

You mean the incompetent bullshit artists like yourslf, jeffie?

> is that prongs are always bad

On accHOWENT of JUST SEEIN the pronged spiked pinch
choke or shock collar MAKES DOGS GO INSANE, jeffie.

> and headcollars are always good,

No, not if you use them to FORCE CON-TROLL, jeffie.

> regardless of what the dogs thinks about it.

Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, jeffie?:

From: Jeff Dege <j>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!!

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote:
> A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this
> dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he
> is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash.
> He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks,
> in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce.
> He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head
> on the grass as approaching he is tensing up
> because it just may be rocky the squirell.
> I think the e collar is appropiate here?
> Although I never used one on him.

Won't make any difference.

I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay.

Jeff Dege.

--------------------------

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

Too bad you don't know HOWE to train your dog
not to attack innocent defenseless dumb critters, jeff,
like your own MOMMA:

From: Jeff Dege
Date: Thurs, Sep 15 2005 3:19 pm
Email: Jeff Dege <j>

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:12:03 +0300, Opinicus wrote:
> So would I. The problem arises when the humans don't
> correctly interpret the canines' warning and don't back off.

Sometimes, humans shouldn't back off.

Case in point:

I have two chairs in front of the TV. I usually sit in
one when I'm watching, and my Bear often sits int it when
I am not.

My mother was over, and we'd both grabbed plates of whatever
and headed in to watch TV. I was first, and Bear was in my chair.

As soon as he saw me, he hopped out and ran over and hopped
into the other chair. Without my saying a word.

When my mother approached the other chair, he growled.

This is not a situation where you want to back off.

He's growling to see if he can get away with it.

And if you let him, you're just setting
yourself up for future problems.

That said, I don't mean you should attack him, mess
about with "alpha rolls", grab his collar and pull
him off, etc. Just tell him to get off the damned
chair, and make sure he complies.

============

GOT ANY CITES PLEASE, jeffie?

Maybe sumpthin LIKE THIS?:

> Jeff Dege <j> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
> because he _trusts_ me?

> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.

> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.

Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-----------

BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

Like when he's grHOWELIN at you momma
or chasing squirrels DESPITE your SHOCK
COLLAR, jeffie?

INSTEAD of USIN PRAISE <{} : ~ ( >

LIKE THIS:

Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: p...@cfl.rr.com
To: Witsend...@aol.com

Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.

My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.

When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.

I will write to Amanda about the video.

I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.

Thanks again
Paul
--------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

Subject: Chasing squirrels
From: lindalee
Date: Sat, Jan 21 2006 10:34 pm
Email: "lindalee" <llindaleedan...@msn.com>

I have not posted to the group for awhile but want to
share my success of teaching my dog Sunshine, who has
a very high prey drive, to not go after squirrels when
on a walk.

It took a few trials but he can now walk right
past squirrels running up a tree or in a yard.

Using Jerry Howe's approach I used a sound to get his
attention when he saw a squirrel and then praised him
and kept on walking past the squirrel.

Where we live in Michigan we lots of squirrels and
he was always wanting to chase them up a tree.

Jerry's approach of sound and praise really works.

I think the people who discount his methods have never
tried the method because it works everytine. Sometimes
it takes a little practice to get the sound from different
directions but I was able to change Sunshine's behavior in
just a week after we moved back to Michigan.

Sunshine is a very sensitive dog so any physical corrections
just won't work but using sound and praise he is a really great
dog who opens doors, picks up things I drop, and and helps me
a lot.

If you have a behavior problem with your dog get a
copy of Jerrry's manual and solve your problem!

---------------

pfoley

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 5:45:11 PM9/16/06
to

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:450b9753$0$21536$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
===========
I am not going to suggest to you which collar to use; you will have to find
out for yourself which works best for you and your dog, but I don't think I
would take the advice of the store clerk. The clerk might think the prong
collar is cruel and painful, which it is not. When I took my Rottie to
training class, my trainer told me not to ever use a choke chain, as they
can damage a dog's throat from the dog constantly pulling on it, and to use
a large link prong collar. He demonstrated on himself that it was not
dangerous to the dog, by pulling hard on his arm and releasing. The idea of
the prong collar is a quick tug and quick release. It does have to fit
properly or it will fall off. Sometimes, all it needs is for one link to be
squeezed and tightened a little. The prongs are all removeable. He also
told me to take a six inch piece of cotton clothesline rope and attach a
snap latch on each end, to be attached from the leash to the dog's leather
collar, (common materials found in a hardware store) not to a choke chain.
A couple of times the prong collar did open up and fall off, but since I had
the attachment from the leash to the leather collar, she was still on the
leash. I did tighten the prong collar after it fell off and did not have
that problem again. I don't even use the little attachment any longer; I
only used it while training her. I have never tried that other collar the
clerk talked about on my present Rotty, but I do know that some dogs hate
them and some others will finally get used to them after a lot of balking.
I tried one of those on my previous Rott, but she was able to remove it in
seconds and that was the end of that idea; I then returned to the prong
collar. I don't know what a small pinch collar is, but I would think a
large powerful dog could break it easily; I don't know that for sure, as I
have never used one, but it would seem to make sense to use a larger
stronger size collar on a powerful dog.
The dog trainer I had was a trainer that also trained dogs for search and
rescue, schutzhund and and police service He had many years of experience.
-----------

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 5:49:03 PM9/16/06
to
HOWEDY jeff,

"Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.16....@jdege.visi.com...

> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>>
>>>Listen to your dog.
>>
>> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>>
>> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>>
>> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
>> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
>
> Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on dogs -

You mean you GOT NO METHOD, eh jeffie?

You mean you EXXXPERIMENT on dogs using different PAIN TOOLS, jeffie?

> when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.

Oh. THAT'S on accHOWENT of your TOOLS rely on
PUNISHMENT and PUNISHMENT ALWAYS deranges
behaviors:

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400

Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.

I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.

There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.

Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology

From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>

HOWEDY People,

NO PUNISHMENT.

Fondly, Dr. Von

> If you have a trainer who is watching the dog,

THERE AIN'T NUTHIN TO SEE, dog lovers.

The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly


Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE

WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual

<{} ; ~ ) >

> to see how he responds to various training tools, great.

THAT'S the PROBLEM. You're relyin on AVERSIVE TOOLS.

> If not, you're going to have to watch the dog yourself.

You mean to SEE if IT LIKES bein jerked choked an shocked
Vs beaten with a stick, or locked in a box Vs PREFERS gettin
ITS ears toes tail an testicles pinched an twisted and offered and
witheld of bribes / rewards attention and affection <{}: ~ ( >

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --

excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz

> Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.

INDEED?

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

> They teach people how to train their own dogs.

Oh, kinda like HOWE the ces does, eh jeeffie?
HE TRAINS PEOPLE and REHABILITATES DOGS.

REMEMBER, jeffie?

> The trainer is a resource.

You mean, to show you HOWE to pupperly HURT
and INTIMDATE your dog, jeffie? Or do you mean
to show you when to give IT a cookie, eh jeffie?:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

> An important and valuable resource, or your


> wasting your money, but only one resource of many.

Hey jeffie? HOWE COME YOU CAN'T TRAIN YOUR OWN
DOG despite your SHOCK COLLAR and cookie bag?:

> Jeff Dege <j> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
> because he _trusts_ me?

> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.

> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.

Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-----------

BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, jeffie?:

Jeff Dege.

--------------------------

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

Case in point:

----------------------


Re: Dog Whisperer Week on National Geographic

Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006

"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com>
wrote in message news:i222d25gibj3sdv85...@4ax.com...

Well, again, "shit" happens.

It's possible to avoid "shit" from happening altogether, by never
doing anything, but that doesn't help dogs very much, does it?

But as some folks are wont to say: "Management always fails."

It'll fail for you one day, too. And I bet it already
has, probably many times, in fact.

The more dogs you try to manage, the more
things you try to do, the more times it'll fail.

Because I've see too much "shit" actually happen,
and know that it's impossible to totally prevent.

"Shit" has happened a number of times just today, at
my place, because someone simply forgot to do what
he was supposed to do. He's done it correctly, oh,
maybe a thousand times now, but today he didn't, and
"shit" happened.

Actually, you should feel pretty good about the fact "
that he actually shows "shit" happening on his show.

--------------

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >

TaraG

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 6:54:41 PM9/16/06
to

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:450c5b3d$0$21531$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

>
> I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment and methods for
> my reluctant initiation into the world of dog training. I can see that
> there are some very strong opposing viewpoints, and all probably have some
> validity. I would like to get good results fairly quickly without
> investing too much time and effort, partly because I am overwhelmed with
> other issues at this time, and also because I hope to be able to give
> Muttley to a new owner who can invest the needed time and (tough) love
> required.

Which is why it is actually *very* likely that the prong collar *is* the
right piece of equipment for you. The head harnesses, sensation/easy walk
styles etc all require more effort put into practice than I think you're
able to do right now.

> It becomes increasingly hard for me to consider giving him to someone
> else, as I continue to bond with him and see his progress and experience
> his affection for me.

That IS often the most difficult part.

> Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not have time to fully
> evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also not be good to try the
> collars too soon after he returns to me. He may need a day to readjust.

Are you saying that you don't want to use the prong until he adjusts? Or you
don't want to use the head halter until then?

Not that it matters. I'd be using it *right* away to establish good behavior
immediately.

> For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:
>
> www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc.

It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).

I bet he looks good in it, though :-)

Tara


flick

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 6:57:31 PM9/16/06
to
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Rg%Og.1202$_k1.220@trndny01...

>
> It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
> don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).

I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file, not an .html, so
it's got to open a word processor so you can read it.

> I bet he looks good in it, though :-)

Very attractive dog.

flick 100785
>
> Tara
>


Melinda Shore

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 7:06:44 PM9/16/06
to
In article <afc85$450c817c$94402b1b$16...@STARBAND.NET>,

flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file, not an .html, so
>it's got to open a word processor so you can read it.

Uh, Office macros are a common infection vector, and it's
very common to have Word or Word Viewer configured to open
downloaded .doc files by default. Never download anything
unless you're sure of the source and the contents.

I'll refrain from commenting on your ability to identify and
evaluate risk. <-- passive-aggressive!
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

pfoley

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 7:15:03 PM9/16/06
to

"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
will
> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
they
> come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head collar on the dog will
> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
> head collar with nice things. When you start to walk him with it on,
have
> him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
> to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
> body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon
stop
> pulling.
>
> George Anderson
> dogg...@virgin.net
> When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
> it is the bark you should heed.
==================
I don't understand why you feel that way. I have never had a problem with
that collar, nor has it ever caused my dog any pain whatsoever. Actually,
it hardly affects her at all. Big dogs with large necks need something that
will control them. I certainly never heard her wince even once. With a
neck like hers it would be very difficult for a collar to hurt her at all.
The trainer taught us how to use it properly. It is just supposed to pinch
her. Most of the time I don't have to pull on it, because she just knows it
is there.

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 16, 2006, 7:43:07 PM9/16/06
to
HOWEDY tarag aka tara.green2,

"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:S_UOg.48$zs6.47@trndny07...


>
> "George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
>> As a dog trainer and behaviourist

And PROBABLE decent human being.

George is PROBABLY NOT a active acute chronic
long term incurable miserable pathetic drunken drug
crazed lyin dog abusing punk thug coward mental
case and professional dog trainin FRAUD, like
yourself <{) : ~ ) >

>> I was horrified to read that you are using a prong collar,

That's PREFERRED amongst HOWER dog lovers.

>> these things are barbaric and should be banned,

INDEEDY.

> As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods,

"PRIMARILY", tarag?

You mean MOSTLY or AT FIRST?

Don't you find dogs work BETTER when
they AIN'T GETTIN HURT, tarag?

What DO you mean, tarag? Do you you mean you use
NICE FIRST? OR do you mean you use NICE till IT
DON'T WORK an THEN you HURT and INTIMIDATE?

Let's suppHOWES "primarily" means you use NICE
FIRST ***and*** MOSTLY and other times you use
HURT and INTIMIDATE?

Is THAT scientific consistentcy, tarag?

Wouldn't MIXING UNCONDITIONAL TRUST
LOVE ATTENTION and RESPECT with PAIN
FEAR FORCE an BRIBERY teach INSECURITY,
MISTRUST, GREED and FEAR?

> I think this type of thinking is narrowminded,

INDEEDY.

You gotta UNDERSTAND HOWE you METHODS WORK.

All you understand is pain fear force intimidation avoidance and
bribery:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant


technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."

> and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about equipment.

You mean your pain fear force and intimidation devices, tarag?

If your INTENT is to HURT the dog to MAKE IT WORK then
you should oughta get yourself a nice shock collar and turn it
up to the highest settin and turn it on till the dog does what
you asked and then give him a cookie and then fade HOWET
the shock till IT is workin only for the cookie and then fade
the cookie till IT is workin for the favor of not getting shocked
and locked in the box.

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in


deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior


Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual

<{} ; ~ ) >

A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;