Ping: Kate & Storm
Shelly & The Boys
http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
(It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
Shelly & The Boys
--
"Many members of the dog fancy are caught in the promising-puppy
trap. In search of a winner, they buy a puppy. But, puppies are a gamble,
not an investment. They are a hope for the future. What the buyer is
purchasing is a dream and a possibility."
--Patricia Gail Burnham
Rocky
> Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs
Looks like the Storm I know. Good one Shelly!
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Gwen Watson
Shelly & The Boys wrote:
>Okay...better late than never! :-)
>
>http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
>
>(It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
>than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
>since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
>Shelly & The Boys
>
>
That is very lovely! I know I am not Kate, but I have seen
Storm and this drawing is quite lovely.
Gwen
>
>
>
>
Shelly & The Boys
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Fri955097044A175au...@rocky-dog.com...
> Shelly & The Boys said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>
> > Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> > since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs
>
> Looks like the Storm I know. Good one Shelly!
Thanks Matt & Gwen...
I have recently picked up the sketchbook & pencil again, and
have been working on a variety of drawings.
Then, somehow, I volunteered to do a pencil/pen/charcoal (winner's
choice) portrait as a raffle prize for our herding trial this weekend!
I just want to make sure I'm getting close enough to make people happy!
I can draw my own dogs fine, but I *know* them...it's other breeds I've
been needing more work on.
Shelly & The Boys
J1Boss
>than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
>since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
>Shelly & The Boys
I like it very much, for a dog sketch. As an FCR sketch: too much stop. Too
heavy in the body. Not enough tail feathering (of course, depends on the dog
and whether the tail is wet or dry). Dog appears "light" in color.
Looks a little setter-ish more than FCR, I guess. Look on ebay for some FCR
sketches that may give you a better idea.
Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience
Shelly & The Boys
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040825170648...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> >(It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
> >than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> >since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
> >Shelly & The Boys
>
> I like it very much, for a dog sketch. As an FCR sketch: too much stop.
Too
> heavy in the body. Not enough tail feathering (of course, depends on the
dog
> and whether the tail is wet or dry). Dog appears "light" in color.
>
> Looks a little setter-ish more than FCR, I guess. Look on ebay for some
FCR
> sketches that may give you a better idea.
Thanks Janet...I was just looking at it, and thought to myself that
the body looks heavier than an FCR would...and the positioning of
the tail isn't quite right, and therefore lends itself to the heavier
body look. The dog in the photo was wet, so the tail was wetted
down.
What is your opinion of the ear, and the front shoulder/leg assembly?
It was difficult through the photo to really tell how the shadowing went
(poor printer, not poor photo). I had a tough time, after I was done
thinking that the body needs to be a tad longer, less "bunched"
looking (again, correct tail carriage & placement would've helped with
that, IMHO).
Thanks for the critique! :-)
Shelly & The Boys
J1Boss
>and the positioning of
>the tail isn't quite right, and therefore lends itself to the heavier
>body look. The dog in the photo was wet, so the tail was wetted
>down.
I thought so. The body reminded me of some IW sketches I've seen.
>What is your opinion of the ear, and the front shoulder/leg assembly?
I think the shoulder/leg looked pretty good, but I probably have a better look
at it if the body is slimmed down. The ear is in motion, so it's tough. I
think it's fine, MAYBE a tad long and narrow, but again, it's in motion.
>It was difficult through the photo to really tell how the shadowing went
>(poor printer, not poor photo).
It's that black dog thing as well!
> I had a tough time, after I was done
>thinking that the body needs to be a tad longer, less "bunched"
>looking (again, correct tail carriage & placement would've helped with
>that, IMHO).
>Thanks for the critique! :-)
>Shelly & The Boys
You're welcome - I think it's very pretty. Yes - "bunched" is a good
description.
Christy
"Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in message
news:10ipuds...@corp.supernews.com...
> Okay...better late than never! :-)
>
> http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
>
> (It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
> than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
> Shelly & The Boys
>
>
Not Kate but,
Lovely drawing! The head planes are more Sheltie than FCR, but other than
that it is wonderful! Very nicely capturing of movement.
Christy
Abby Pennington
> http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
Very nice, Shelly! I don't know much about FCR though, so I can't tell you
if it's correct or not. <g>
--
-Abby
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
****Remove shoes to reply****
Chris Jung
"Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in message
news:10ipvg1...@corp.supernews.com...
Ha! I think it's common for an artist to get used to one type of dogs and
tend to transfer that breed's traits to other dogs. I, being a collie gal,
have a high appreciation for a fine elegant nose. While this doesn't
affect, say a pug portrait (no way can I length that nose), I do have to
watch myself when doing something like a BC.
Shelly, since I've been around the block on this dog portrait thing, I've
learned a few tricks. If you would like, we can carry on an email
discussion.
Chris and her smoothies,
snoozing Pablo and chewing-on-a-cow-ear Lucy
J1Boss
my goddaughter turned 15 yesterday. She is going into her sophomore year at
baltimore's HS for the arts. She's also my newest assistant for my puppy
classes. So, I bought her a book of how to draw dogs. Very interesting,
detailing eyes, coat, bone, etc. Of course I read it first!
Shelly & The Boys
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wriXc.47343$Kt5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Shelly, since I've been around the block on this dog portrait thing, I've
> learned a few tricks. If you would like, we can carry on an email
> discussion.
Yes, please! I haven't even made an attempt to do anything outside
of the herding group yet...so that would be great. I think the shortest
nose I've even tried was an ACD.
Thank you!
Shelly
Marcel Beaudoin
> Okay...better late than never! :-)
>
> http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
>
> (It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
> than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
> Shelly & The Boys
Very nice picture, I don't know any FCRs, so I can't really tell you if it
is right or not.
I can tell you what I like. And this drawing is very well done. Very well
done indeed.
If there was one thing that throws me off a bit is that although the legs
and whatnot give me the sense that he is moving, the tail seems a bit low
and distracts from the sense of movement. But that may just be my lack of
expereince with big dogs running and exclusive experience with little dogs
running.
Again, the picture is amazing. Keep drawing, and keep showing them to us!!!
--
Marcel and Moogli
Rocky
> I haven't even made an attempt to do anything outside
> of the herding group yet...
If you want more herding group pictures to practice on, well, I
can point you to some pretty good pictures, heh.
Suja
> Yes, please! I haven't even made an attempt to do anything outside
> of the herding group yet...so that would be great. I think the shortest
> nose I've even tried was an ACD.
Well, Khan is half herding breed, so maybe he'll make a good segue
subject? No pressure or anything....
Suja
Shelly & The Boys
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
I have one of Rocky's great flamboyant tunnel exit (I think it was the one
in Dog World?). I just haven't tried yet...
I want to focus on action, and am just drawn mostly to herding group
dogs & sighthounds.
Shelly & The Boys
Gwen Watson
Shelly & The Boys wrote:
>
>I want to focus on action, and am just drawn mostly to herding group
>dogs & sighthounds.
>Shelly & The Boys
>
>
>
What about swimming dogs? I have a few pretty good swimming photos.
And of course all three of my dogs are herding dogs.
Gwen
Christy
"Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in message
> I want to focus on action, and am just drawn mostly to herding group
> dogs & sighthounds.
>
You likey agility pix??
Christy
Shelly & The Boys
"Christy" <easily...@gtenospam.net> wrote in message
news:9hrXc.595$Jj1.480@trnddc01...
Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially Belgians,
Tervs & BCs. What I'm really looking for is one of a hairy dog on the apex
of the A-frame...can ya (or Matt & Rocky) help me out?
Shelly & The Boys
J1Boss
>of the A-frame...can ya (or Matt & Rocky) help me out?
>Shelly & The Boys
I could give you a moderately hairy FCR on the apex of an a-frame, but i'd
have to have really fast shutter speed ;-D.
Shelly & The Boys
> >What I'm really looking for is one of a hairy dog on the apex
> >of the A-frame...can ya (or Matt & Rocky) help me out?
> >Shelly & The Boys
>
> I could give you a moderately hairy FCR on the apex of an a-frame, but
i'd
> have to have really fast shutter speed ;-D.
<grin> Well, if they can catch a Belgian up there...
I saw a really great one of an Irish Water Spaniel once, but it was
a pro-photog's and I cannot remember where I saw it.
Shelly & The Boys
Debbie S
< I just haven't tried yet... I want to focus on action, and am just
drawn mostly to herding group dogs & sighthounds. >
Lessee.... action... herding breed... sable GSD... hmmm. I wonder
where you could find a subject?
Debbie
Christy
"Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in message
> Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially Belgians,
> Tervs & BCs. What I'm really looking for is one of a hairy dog on the
apex
> of the A-frame...can ya (or Matt & Rocky) help me out?
> Shelly & The Boys
Not sure this will work - he's not technically *ON* the apex - but its the
best I have:
http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylieframe.jpg
(Note - you might be able to color him black and pass him off as a Belgian!)
A couple more cool action shots -
http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wyliechute.jpg - particularly
psychotic looking chute shot
http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg - this one is neat
because tables are rarely captured in photos
http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wyliesheep2.jpg - not agility, but
fun!
Christy
Leah
>> You likey agility pix??
>Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially Belgians,
>Tervs & BCs.
How about herding pix? I have a few from Madigan's clinic, and DH gave me a
scanner. All I have to do now is wait until he has time to find the software
and install it so that I can use it. :}
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Rocky
>> Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially
>> Belgians, Tervs & BCs. What I'm really looking for is one
>> of a hairy dog on the apex of the A-frame...can ya (or
>> Matt & Rocky) help me out? Shelly & The Boys
All my best pictures are already on my web site; it's difficult
getting good agility pictures - professional photographers don't
show up at many trials and I hestitate to ask friends to take
pictures. So, I just grab what I can get.
> Not sure this will work - he's not technically *ON* the
> apex - but its the best I have:
> http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylieframe.jpg
That's a *really* good picture. When I get my pictures of the
Nationals, there's a good A-Frame one of Friday, though not as
good as yours.
> http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wyliechute.jpg
But I like this Rocky chute picture better:
http://www.rocky-dog.com/Agility/Agility015.html
> http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg
Bestest table picture ever! Even better than the one of a
friend's Sheltie taking a dump on the table during a trial.
Said friend was mortified, which makes the picture so good.
Anyway, if Shelly's interested, I'll have some pretty good
Friday agility pictures soon. We can see if she's as good as
Donna (scroll down for the sketch):
http://www.rocky-dog.com/Herding/Friday09.html
KWBrown
news:10ipuds...@corp.supernews.com:
> Okay...better late than never! :-)
>
> http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/stormFCR.jpg
>
> (It was sort of a quickie sketch...I needed something other
> than just Belgians! Honest feedback appreciated, especially
> since I'm not all that familiar with FCRs)
> Shelly & The Boys
>
>
>
Shelly:
I wasn't ignoring you: just travelling up-island and hiking in the rain
for a few days.
The picture is lovely! Wow! Thanks so much for putting that together!
May I please print a copy?
Thoughts from a person who doesn't want to appear to be the least bit
ungrateful:
I like the feeling of flight. It's just what I love about the original
picture. The drawing emphasizes the lower legs and stifle over the
head, though, leaving the impression of a smallish head and heavy
quarter. Since we're a "head breed," it's something an FCR person
notices.
FCR heads should not have a noticeable stop. The standard calls for a
"one-piece" head. In the photo, Storm's head is inclined just a bit
toward the photographer. What you're seeing as stop is, in fact, her
left eyebrow, making the stop appear more prominent. FCRs don't have
the completely smooth face of a collie, but a Golden's head is
considered too coarse to be correct.
The back-skull also appears to be a titch short, relative to the muzzle.
Reference
http://members.shaw.ca/arfenarf/photoalbum/Dogs/slides/0405%20JH%20Land%
20Send.htm
for a profile taken straight on.
Marcel: The tail set Shelly has in the drawing was taken straight from
the original photo. It just happens to be where Storm was carrying it
at that point in her stride.
This one:
http://members.shaw.ca/arfenarf/photoalbum/Dogs/slides/flatcoat1.htm
was taken about one and a half strides before the photo used for the
drawing. Her tail is flying behind her more. Storm had to negotiate a
turn shortly after the picture was taken. I wonder whether she was
getting ready to rudder around the corner with that tail?
Thanks again! I am simply delighted!
Kate
--
and Storm the FCR
KWBrown
news:8utXc.2325$Cc.576@trnddc07:
> Not sure this will work - he's not technically *ON* the apex - but its
> the best I have:
> http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylieframe.jpg
I just *love* this picture.
--
Kate
and Storm the FCR
Shelly & The Boys
"Debbie S" <staf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6778-412...@storefull-3211.bay.webtv.net...
From: sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com
Ahem...FIRST you have to take some photos of her! <grin>
( I *will* finish that one of Nikki coming out of the tunnel...I just
have to do some work on the nose!)
Shelly & The Boys
Shelly & The Boys
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20040826212204...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> > "Shelly & The Boys" sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com wrote:
>
> >> You likey agility pix??
>
> >Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially Belgians,
> >Tervs & BCs.
>
> How about herding pix? I have a few from Madigan's clinic
I have loads of herding...but that doesn't mean you shouldn't get
them scanned & online! :-)
Here's one I did of Bodhi:
http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/bodhisketch1.jpg
And another of one of my all-time favorite Belgian photos, of
my friend's young girl, Jacqueline:
http://www.geocities.com/shellybrosnan/jacqueline.jpg
(I need to take some time & do more...I don't have many others
that are finished)
Shelly & The Boys
Shelly & The Boys
"KWBrown" <arfenar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9551CA760B58Fa...@130.133.1.4...
> Thoughts from a person who doesn't want to appear to be the least bit
> ungrateful:
>
> I like the feeling of flight. It's just what I love about the original
> picture. The drawing emphasizes the lower legs and stifle over the
> head, though, leaving the impression of a smallish head and heavy
> quarter. Since we're a "head breed," it's something an FCR person
> notices.
:-) Read the comments Janet made on the behavior board...her's
actually keyed right into what I was thinking after I really looked at
the finished product, especially the head, body length & croup area.
Do the FCR people mind being the FCR being a "head breed"? I know
this is sometimes an area of contention with the BSD people. There
are judges that pretty much only look at head & expression, and don't
pay much attention to outline, gait & shoulder assembly--which are also very
important features of the breed, especially the outline.
You can print it out & do whatever you want.
The feeling of movement was my main point of focus, what I really
was hoping to capture more than anything else, so I'm glad you like
that aspect. :-)
Shelly & The Boys
Christy
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
> But I like this Rocky chute picture better:
> http://www.rocky-dog.com/Agility/Agility015.html
No comparison - that's one of, if not the, best chute pix ever. Has a little
of the psycho-eye thing, too.
>
> > http://www.geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg
>
> Bestest table picture ever! Even better than the one of a
> friend's Sheltie taking a dump on the table during a trial.
> Said friend was mortified, which makes the picture so good.
Gotta say that would be a pretty damned funny picture. But I'll keep mine
anyway. What I like best about it is that he's completely airborne, save for
the toes on one paw. I have another picture from the same trial, a few
seconds earlier, where he's sitting statue-like on the table - it makes a
neat series.
Christy
Child
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
> Christy said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>
> >> Yes! I have tons of jumping & weaving pix--especially
> >> Belgians, Tervs & BCs. What I'm really looking for is one
> >> of a hairy dog on the apex of the A-frame...can ya (or
> >> Matt & Rocky) help me out? Shelly & The Boys
>
> All my best pictures are already on my web site; it's difficult
> getting good agility pictures - professional photographers don't
> show up at many trials and I hestitate to ask friends to take
> pictures. So, I just grab what I can get.
I feel really fortunate that our one sports photographer shows up at just
about every trial. I buy pictures every trial, simply because i want him to
keep coming.
Debbie S
<Ahem...FIRST you have to take some photos of her!>
Ha! I have photos! Sort of, they're on a photog's site.
< I *will* finish that one of Nikki coming out of the tunnel...I just
have to do some work on the nose!)>
I didn't even know you were doing one. Kewl! If I heal in time, Kira's
going to run at the state fair demo, which is where that pic of Nik was
taken. Maybe we'll get one of the sable grrrl. Heh, in Kira's case,
'demo' may mean demolition rather than demonstration.
Debbie
Marcel Beaudoin
news:Xns9551CA760B58Fa...@130.133.1.4:
> Marcel: The tail set Shelly has in the drawing was taken straight from
> the original photo. It just happens to be where Storm was carrying it
> at that point in her stride.
That's why I said that I may not be the best person to comment on it. Like
I said, I have very little experience with big dogs running, let alone
drawing from a photograph.
--
Marcel and Moogli
KWBrown
> Do the FCR people mind being the FCR being a "head breed"?
I can't pretend to speak for the entire community, but I don't think its an
issue as long as the whole dog is taken into account when judging.
If you want to annoy a room full of FCR people, get them talking about
breeding exclusively for conformation or for working ability. Or whose
lines are carrying yellow.
:-)
diannes
> What I'm really looking for is one of a hairy dog on the apex
> of the A-frame...can ya (or Matt & Rocky) help me out?
Is this one hairy enough for you?
http://www.dbfields.com/deschamps/aframe.JPEG
It's really not the greatest picture of her - too bad her face
isn't visible. Even so, you gotta admit that the windblown look
is pretty fab.
Dianne
Shelly & The Boys
"diannes" <dia...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ch0ieg$akr$1...@bolt.sonic.net...
Oh
My
God.
That picture TOTALLY rocks. A lot of detail is lost, but yes
that windblown look is awesome!
Shelly & The Boys
Shelly & The Boys
"Melanie L Chang" <mlc...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:ch0js7$2et9$2...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> I don't have any frame photos, but there's the fabulous teeter sequence
> (taken by Diane Lewis) on Solo's woefully un-updated agility page:
>
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/agilesolo.html
>
> And my favorite tunnel picture:
>
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/tunnelboy.jpg
Great photos, I like those teeter ones a lot.
I took a camera this past weekend to a herding trial, hoping to catch
some nice cattle shots. I ended up being a stock-handler/grunt
worker, so camera stayed in the car.
Shelly & The Boys
Leah
>http://www.dbfields.com/deschamps/aframe.JPEG
Now *that's* what I call a Windhound. :}
Rocky
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/agilesolo.html
Heh. I've got a great one of Friday doing a flyoff. The
photographer just happened to be in the right (wrong?) place at
the right time.
> And my favorite tunnel picture:
>
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/tunnelboy.jpg
That's a great one. Friday's is almost as good, but I'll have
to wait for the CD in the mail before I can prove it.
TO...@dog-play.com
> Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/agilesolo.html
> Heh. I've got a great one of Friday doing a flyoff. The
mine is
http://dog-play.com/Images_MyDogs/bt-aframe1.jpg
> photographer just happened to be in the right (wrong?) place at
> the right time.
>> And my favorite tunnel picture:
>>
>> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/tunnelboy.jpg
and mine
http://dog-play.com/Images_MyDogs/bt-tunnel1.jpg
--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
Shelly & The Boys
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
> Heh. I've got a great one of Friday doing a flyoff. The
> photographer just happened to be in the right (wrong?) place at
> the right time.
:-) I can sure appreciate that.
From our National (we had SUPER photographers, they were chosen
because they are first & foremost performance photographers, not
conformation photographers).
I have the "Good Bodhi/Bad Bodhi" sequence in both obedience &
herding.
In obedience, "Good Bodhi":
http://tinyurl.com/4l82y
"Bad Bodhi": http://tinyurl.com/4w64m (I have NO idea what he's doing
here, and my back was probably turned because I don't remember it!)
In herding: "Good Bodhi": http://tinyurl.com/2lxnv
"Bad Bodhi": http://tinyurl.com/3xpwh (In which that one bad little bugger
sheep did NOT want to stay with the other 4 in the group for nothing, for
any of the dogs!)
Of course, I just rec'd our club's Newsletter that features the National
Specialty. In it, is the "Bad Bodhi" herding photo. I love it, because
he looks so fit & atheletic! However, when there's dirt flying & no feet
touching? That really ain't good herding! :-)
Shelly & The Boys
KWBrown
> It's really not the greatest picture of her - too bad her face
> isn't visible. Even so, you gotta admit that the windblown look
> is pretty fab.
>
What a very cool picture!
I saw a Standard Poodle in full show coat running agility a few weeks ago
on a breezy day. His coat streamed behind him in a way that gave me
goosebumps just watching. What glory!
Rocky
> Of course, I just rec'd our club's Newsletter that features
> the National Specialty. In it, is the "Bad Bodhi" herding
> photo. I love it, because he looks so fit & atheletic!
> However, when there's dirt flying & no feet touching?
> That really ain't good herding!
He's just thinking about mutton for dinner.
I love the drive of Belgian Sheepdogs. Last night, after
agility classes were over, I was assisting a friend with contact
training his 5 month old Mal. Incredible drive on that puppy,
Yikes. (That's his name.)
The Puppy Wizard
sheep dog training BUSINESS.
You bums got NO RIGHT hurting and intimidating
innocent sheep with your ILL TRAINED HOWETA
CON-TROLL dogs.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Fri95565CB58D211au...@rocky-dog.com...
Rocky
>>> And my favorite tunnel picture:
> and mine
> http://dog-play.com/Images_MyDogs/bt-tunnel1.jpg
That's good! Somewhere there exists a similar picture of Friday
"jackrabbitting" out of a tunnel.
In fact, you just made me realise that the world's bestest ever
tunnel picture is missing from Friday's preview page (on the
Nationals photographer's web site). I *know* it exists because
it was shown at the Saturday night banquet. I've emailed the
photographer and I hope that he can find it.
diannes
>Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>
>> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~mlchang/agilesolo.html
>
>Heh. I've got a great one of Friday doing a flyoff.
I entered Patience in her first agility trial long before she
was really ready because, well, it was my national specialty
and I wanted to be there. She didn't Q because she missed a
contact and knocked a bar, but she was fast and happy and I
was SO proud of her.
A month or so later my breed club's magazine came, and guess
what? The picture they used to illustrate the article on the
agility trial... was one of Patience knocking the bar. <*sigh*>
Dianne
Rocky
> I've emailed the
> photographer and I hope that he can find it.
Here it is! Perhaps the best tunnel photograph ever!
http://www.rocky-dog.com/Friday/index.htm
Rocky
> The picture they used to illustrate the article on the
> agility trial... was one of Patience knocking the bar.
Maybe all the other Briards knocked *two* bars?
I love watching Briards run agility - there are two that I see
every time I attend a trial in Edmonton.
KWBrown
news:Fri95567806D6AB1au...@rocky-dog.com:
> Here it is! Perhaps the best tunnel photograph ever!
>
> http://www.rocky-dog.com/Friday/index.htm
>
*applause*
TO...@dog-play.com
> Rocky said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>> I've emailed the
>> photographer and I hope that he can find it.
> Here it is! Perhaps the best tunnel photograph ever!
> http://www.rocky-dog.com/Friday/index.htm
Very cool
Rocky
"foto", text of "foto", and attachment called "foto.zip". So
far, a few of the posters in this thread seem to be involved.
I'd suggest that you don't open the zip file. Like the other
two posters involved (so far), I don't send attachments without
permission.
Tiger Lily
kate
"Rocky" <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Fri95567806D6AB1au...@rocky-dog.com...
Rocky
> oh... that one's a keeper Matt
Thanks!
But now that you've joined this thread, expect an unwanted email
with the equally unwanted attachment "fotos.zip" from a spoofed
address.
Melinda Shore
Rocky <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote:
>But now that you've joined this thread, expect an unwanted email
>with the equally unwanted attachment "fotos.zip" from a spoofed
>address.
I've received one and this my first post to this thread.
A few months ago the Washington Post ran an unintentionally
funny article about people who know better and open
unsolicited attachments anyway. Apparently there are a lot
of them. I do it from time to time (I'm curious, too), but
only from a Unix system - never from Windows or even MacOS.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
While George Bush has been President, North Korea
has quadrupled its nuclear stockpile
KWBrown
news:Fri95568486AE14Bau...@rocky-dog.com:
> But now that you've joined this thread, expect an unwanted email
> with the equally unwanted attachment "fotos.zip" from a spoofed
> address
Heck. My name's on the top of this thread and I've had nothing... it must
be an automated mailer, taking the public emails as they come.
Rocky
> A few months ago the Washington Post ran an unintentionally
> funny article about people who know better and open
> unsolicited attachments anyway. Apparently there are a lot
> of them. I do it from time to time (I'm curious, too), but
> only from a Unix system - never from Windows or even MacOS.
With Pegasus as my email client I have to go to some effort to
open such attachments (or even html email).
I get a laugh from the spam mail that says "Your mailer do not
support HTML messages. Switch to a better mailer." Yup, I'll
get right on it.
Rocky
>> But now that you've joined this thread, expect an unwanted
>> email with the equally unwanted attachment "fotos.zip"
>> from a spoofed address
>
> Heck. My name's on the top of this thread and I've had
> nothing... it must be an automated mailer, taking the
> public emails as they come.
Nah, I thinks it's more personal than automated.
shelly
>Nah, I thinks it's more personal than automated.
aw, did ya'll inherit my stalker?
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://photos.yahoo.com/scouvrette
Rocky
>>Nah, I thinks it's more personal than automated.
>
> aw, did ya'll inherit my stalker?
We're probably just sharing.
Suja
> Nah, I thinks it's more personal than automated.
You think? Why? I mean, the people who received it couldn't possibly
be the only dog abusing thugs around here.
Suja
Robin Nuttall
Melinda Shore wrote:
> In article <Fri95568486AE14Bau...@rocky-dog.com>,
> Rocky <2dogs...@rocky-dog.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>But now that you've joined this thread, expect an unwanted email
>>with the equally unwanted attachment "fotos.zip" from a spoofed
>>address.
>
>
> I've received one and this my first post to this thread.
I actually almost fell for this one today. The return address beginning
was someone I know well, and this person may have reasons to send me
photos, so I downloaded it to my desktop and started to open it, and
only stopped when I realized it was an exe file. Whew.
Tiger Lily
question answered....... ta Robin
"Robin Nuttall" <> wrote in message _s52...
shelly
>You think? Why? I mean, the people who received it couldn't possibly
>be the only dog abusing thugs around here.
let's just say that this seems to be a repeating pattern 'round these
here parts. another rpd-er contacted me a couple of weeks ago to tell
me she'd gotten what looked like a virus from my e-mail address. i
knew it couldn't *possibly* have originated from me. i would've
assumed it was random, except that at about the time it was sent,
someone tried to access my inbox. the icing on the cake was the
message i received from a Sibe rescue group, asking me for more info
on the dog i wanted to relinquish to them. haw!
co-inky-dinks? i think not, especially after the "let's sign shelly
up for random mail lists" spree awhile back.
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://photos.yahoo.com/scouvrette
Words, like glass, obscure when they do not aid vision.
-- Joseph Joubert
shelly
wrote:
>We're probably just sharing.
damn. i was hoping s/he'd found a new host body.
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://photos.yahoo.com/scouvrette
D is for Desmond thrown out of a sleigh.
-- Edward Gorey, The Gashlycrumb Tinies
Abby Pennington
news:Fri95567806D6AB1au...@rocky-dog.com:
> http://www.rocky-dog.com/Friday/index.htm
That's a great pic, Matt! Friday is so handsome.
--
-Abby
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
****Remove shoes to reply****
The Puppy Wizard
<add...@my.sig> wrote in message
news:7mv4k0dlntdhlnegk...@4ax.com...
> On 31 Aug 2004 17:48:43 GMT, Rocky 2d...@rocky-dog.com wrote:
>
> It was a joy to watch her run, and I thought
> of your pics of Friday having fun.
>
> --
> ?
Here's matty an his pals hurtin dogs and lying abHOWET it:
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and praise
> > to solve a problem with using shock collars,
> > hanging,and punishment how can you
> > criticize the use of sound?
>
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning that
> you're a professor with 30 years of experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of people
> recommending "shock collars, hanging, and
> punishment"?
>
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Can you tell the truth from a lie?:
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:
> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?
Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
> > individual. I feel very sorry for her
> > and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> > doubt, please provide a quote (an
> > original quote, not from one of Jerry
> > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> > shows a regular poster promoting or
> > using an abusive form of training.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
You think matty's playin with a full goddamned deck?
From: Mark Shaw (ms...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST
In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrnsc53>,
"Coleman Brumley" <clbr...@home.com> wrote:
>
>Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-Shock).
>If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?
If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system, I have
one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.
>I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
>more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
>walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
>so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
>watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
>props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
>
>I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.
I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.
That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw
culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:
From: culprit (cul...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing bark alert,
while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST
"micha el" <spam_y...@spamyourmamma.com> wrote in message
news:yIydnZpPsIz...@comcast.com...
>
> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
>
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.
--------------------------------
"Tricia9999" <trici...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> >> how effective are these electronic fences in
> >> keeping a dog on a property????
>
> Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
> too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
>
> Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
> because the dog got caught right in the path of
> the shock and will now not go near his person,
> won't go outside.
>
> Just hides under a desk in the house.
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but w e'vecomealongwaysincethen.Shetrusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
>
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
> Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
> is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
> keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
> up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
> and the vet agrees.
>
> --Lia
"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV"
THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
http://tinyurl.com/389al
In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.
If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.
Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh
> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> > doubt, please provide a quote (an
> > original quote, not from one of Jerry
> > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> > shows a regular poster promoting or
> > using an abusive form of training.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
>
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
>
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
>
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
---------------------------------
Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.
Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkos...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ging...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
news:<04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
> >> Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
> >> quotes are true.
> >> In the posts below you take responsibility for
> >> making those calls.
> >> In your post above, you state you do not
> >> make those calls.
> >>Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT
LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined
-----------------------------------------
> But I think what Lois was referring to
> was the fact that Darlene actually
> stated at some point that she was
> bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work
> for her--so she was prone to major-league
> ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkos...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03
BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read
> "The Unquiet Mind"?
Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.
Lynn K.
---------------------------------------
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"
-------------------------------------
From: Gary & lois Edwards (ga...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
-------------------------------------
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK"
Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When
You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up
The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping
Sound To The Dog."
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> ================
"An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.
It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him," wm koehler.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> ================
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"
Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.
"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for
the first time, spray one squirt directly into
the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore
him and continue your normal behavior."
You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?
Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?
Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
sionnach.
Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer, discoverer of cannibalism
in Labradors.
You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like
a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT
on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with
the heel of your palm.
"BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us3...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Frank" <flma...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.02061...@posting.google.com...
> > dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326...@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> > > >"brianev" bri...@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it. Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
:
> Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
:
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.
"BethF" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.bo...@adelphia.net>
wrote in message
> Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
> and i often call my little dog the turd, because
> he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
> would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
> matter of personality.
> Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
> step on him once. Seriously.
------------------------------------------------------
That's INSANE. Ain't it. So's this, here's
professor SCRUFF SHAKE:
"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.
First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.
**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~ } >
P.S. Contacting Dr. P:
Please note that due to the large number of
requests I receive, I can no longer give free,
personal advice on problems related to dog
training and behavior.
In order for me to give such advice we would
have to "talk" about the problem at length.
That is, I would need detailed information about
the dog, it's environment and routine, the problem,
and the situation in which the problem occurs.
Thus, this type of consultation takes time which
I cannot afford to give away for free.
If you wish such advice, please see the information
I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting
practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal
advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, &
newsgroup discussions.
P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
YOU'RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!
Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And
Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS
BUSINESS.
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
"(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),"
--Marshall
"Rootman" <no-...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:vd83djr...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Mini Adolph Hitler (aka megalomanic) wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> Something else that was completely stupid,
> ignorant false and nongermane.
>
>
> JH, you are a goosestepping, facist, brownshirt,
> terrorist supporting, nazi thug. YOU hurt and kill
> dogs then try and cover it up by dreaming up false
> quotes to support your own retard methods.
>
> Go and practice your wild facism somewhere else.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
"(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),"
--Marshall
The Puppy Wizard sez "A dog is a dog as a child
is a child. They only respond in PREDICTABLE
NORMAL NATURAL INNATE INSTINCTIVE
REFLEXIVE ways to situations and circumstances
of their environment which we create for them.
ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME
SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
"(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),"
--Marshall
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
> To: "The Puppy Wizard"
> <ThePupp...@earthlink.net> Sent: Friday, July
> 23, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
>
>
> Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
>
> I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
> and now must applaud your attempts to save
> animals from painful training procedures.
>
> You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
> who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
> alert the world to animal abuse.
>
> We are lucky to have you, and more people should
> come to their senses and support your valuable
> work.
>
> Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
> charity to fund your important work?
>
> Have you thought about holding a press conference
> so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
> and significant work?
>
> In closing, my only suggestion is that you
> try to keep your messages short for most
> readers may refuse to read a long message
> even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
>
> I wish you well in your endeavors.
>
> --Marshall Dermer
>
> Marshall Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior
> Analysis Specialty/Department of Psychology/
> University of Wisconsin- -Milwaukee/ Milwaukee,
> WI 53201
> der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
> --------------------------------------
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
Beelzebub
<ThePupp...@EarthLink.Net> wrote:
>HOWEDY add...@my.sig,
>
><add...@my.sig> wrote in message
>news:7mv4k0dlntdhlnegk...@4ax.com...
>> On 31 Aug 2004 17:48:43 GMT, Rocky 2d...@rocky-dog.com wrote:
>>
>> It was a joy to watch her run, and I thought
>> of your pics of Friday having fun.
>>
>> --
>> ?
>
>Here's matty an his pals hurtin dogs and lying abHOWET it:
FUCK OFF YOU PERVERT! GO FUCK YOURSELF.
The Puppy Wizard
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <me1...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in
message news:lc96k0pf2e6puf177...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:40:35 GMT, add...@my.sig wrote:
>
> []
> >I met this Toller (and her owner-handler) at an agility
competition today,
> >
>
>http://members.rogers.com/intermediates/Kash/Pg2/Tunnel_8Months.j
pg
> >
>
>http://members.rogers.com/intermediates/Kash/Pg2/Tunnel_Hunker_8M
onths.jpg
>
> Let me guess.
You think she got any pics of her DEAD DOG Teena, tommy?
> His call name is "Spats"?
Fancy that? You got a thing for names, don't you, tommy?:
You got any good names for your new PRIVATE LIST?
From: A Real American (u...@usa.com)
Subject: Re: Walking with Prong Collar
Date: 2000-10-13 18:09:17 PST
On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:03:43 -0500, Roscoe Pignitoiwski
<dog...@i1.net> wrote:
>*I* have never posted under Tom Sorensen.
You posted to rpdb as "Tom Sorensen" <j...@i1.net> with the Dogman
tag
line: Message-ID: <qiltqs0qpbjn5d5cm...@4ax.com>
then you reposted the same message as "Dogman" <dog...@i1.net>
with
the same tag line:
Message-ID:<k0mtqssc0hu5j6jhq...@4ax.com>
>Or Tom Sorenson. Or Tommy
>Sorensen. Or Tommy Sorenson.
You posted to "comp.mail.eudora.ms-windows" as "Tom Sorensen"
<j...@i1.net> with the Dogman tag line:
Message-ID: <ic4inski2ku2s42ii...@4ax.com>
then you reposted the same message as "Tom Sorensen" <j...@i1.net>
without the Dogman tag line:
Message-ID: <ct4inscqkb54krgq9...@4ax.com>
>Or Joe Finocchiaro. Or Joe Finocharo.
Howe about these older email addys and names of yours?
joe...@ix.netcom.com Joe Finocchiaro
retri...@stlnet.com Joe Finocchiaro
qbt...@v1.arg
w...@v1.arg
j...@i1.net
dog...@i1.net
Ask Bob Maida who "Joey" is? He will say that it is Dogman.
Now, you might be asking yourself...so what? Now ask yourself,
why
would a nationally recognized breeder hide behind so many aliases?
The answer is complex in origin, but simple to explain. He likes
to
be foul and filthy, but that wouldn't be nice in the circles he
likes
to travel in. Look up the old posts to find out just howe filthy
he
can be.
OR, he may be like the American U. president that used to make
obscene
phone calls to young women to get his jollys off. I kind of think
this may be the correct explanation.
Either way, he is dirt under your feet.
Let's see howe many blind alleys he can run you retards up and
down
now.
Uncle Sam
------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Here's lyingdogDUMMY aka tommy soronson
beatin a dog to HOWEsbreak IT to save ITS life:
But FIRST, a little good KOEHLER trainin:
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking
Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of
these "backsliders" will think they're winning and
will continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be
made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long
duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute
intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"Housebreaking Problems:
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment.
Make certain he is equipped with a collar
and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside.
Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding
and close observation, you will not have to do
much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling.
To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking
apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the
house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house
and then backslides, the method of correction
differs somewhat.
In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation.
The fact that he once was reliable in the house is
proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it
leaves you no other course than to punish him
sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of
his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences.
If the punishment is not severe enough, some of
these "backsliders" will think they're winning and
will continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and
punish him again for the same thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.
It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.
"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<handsome...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in
<message
news:a236iv0ngp58gv9jm...@4ax.com...
> On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT, dogst...@aol.com
> (DogStar716)
wrote:
>
> >>>Never mind dogman :)
> >>
> >>You too? Some folks just never learn.
> >
> >Uh huh :)
>
> One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh
> huh" a lot.
>
> >>PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't
> >>on this list, he (or she) is NOT an approved
> >>Koehler trainer, no matter how loud you scream
> >>otherwise.
> >
> >May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be on
> >a list to use Koehlers methods or teach his
> >methods.
>
> Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you
> that not every trainer who uses a leash is a
> *Koehler* trainer.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but
> if she's hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as
> far from a Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can
> possibly be.
>
> Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
>
> I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
>
> >>http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html
> >Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that
> >whoever wrote it knows nothing about PR based
> >training:
> >
> >"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend
> >in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems"
> >
> >You cannot use PR only.
>
> Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and
> many other places as well) *claim* that they use
> nothing but R. You know, the PPers.
>
> And they do it quite loudly, too.
>
> Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as
> ignorant?
>
> Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.
>
> >And if you knew anything about PR BASED training,
> >you would realize that. It's not all cookies and
> >babytalk.
>
> There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome
> Jack Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool
> in my bag, including R-, P, and P-, because I know
> that even R has its limits.
>
> You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in
> the sand.
>
> > But that seems to be the battle cry of the
> > Koehler-ites.
>
> The Koehlerites have no battle cry.
>
> They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more
> than enough.
>
> >I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a
> >proper leash correction as I do not rely on a leash
> >to control or teach my dog.
>
> That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but
> it's not suitable for the majority of dog owners,
> especially since the advent of leash laws.
>
> Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler
> training, Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in
> need of a leash.
>
> That you apparently don't know that, once again
> shows me just how ignorant of anything to do with
> Koehler you are.
>
> >My last two dogs have been trained offleash right
> >from the start, using rewards for what I like, and
> >nothing for what I don't like.
>
> Good for you, and if that level of training is good
> enough for you, fine. But it's not good enough for
> many of the rest of us.
>
> >Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.
>
> I really have no idea what you're saying anymore,
> because you apparently know so damn little about
> Koehler and behavioral principles in general that
> it's hard to have an informed discussion with you.
>
> PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to
> keep denying that those certain harsh methods are
> only for LAST RESORT situations, intended only to
> SAVE A DOG'S LIFE, even after I've repeatedly given
> you direct *quotes* from Koehler's book saying just
> that. It's like you don't even care how stupid
> people think you are, or how devious you are, etc.
> That can't help your cause any. You'd think that
> you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even
> if you're not. -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently
> remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<handsome...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in
<message
news:spb3ivgh7prvq9omh...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> <kris_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Good books huh?
>
> Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.
>
> >Which idea was your favorite, the one where they
> >tell you to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,
>
> There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog
> (i.e., it *can* and *does* work in *some*
> situations). Unfortunately, most people either do it
> incorrectly, do it at the wrong time, etc.
>
> >or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard
> >enough if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within
> >5 minutes of his punishment?
>
> If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after
> careful evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get
> it over with quickly than it is to do it
> incrementally and half-heartedly, which usually only
> invites the need for even more discipline.
>
> >Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings
> >for housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive
> >behavior, stealing, trying to get on your bed
> >at night and dog on dog aggression.
>
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
> dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
> *not* constitute a "beating."
>
> I'm sorry if you don't agree.
>
> And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be
> looked at in its proper context.
>
> A quote from the Monks:
>
> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical
> discipline. Since no book can pretend to analyze
> every individual dog and situation, we feel
> obligated to emphasize from the outset that
> discipline is never an arbitrary training
> technique to be applied to each and every dog for
> all offenses. We do, however, believe that physical
> and verbal discipline can be an effective technique.
> The best policy if you experience any of the above
> problems is to consult a qualified trainer or
> veterinarian for evaluation of your individual
> situation....
>
> "If discipline is decided upon as a training
> technique, it should be the proper technique. We
> feel we have developed several methods that depend
> less on violent physical force than timing, a flair
> for drama, and the element of surprise.
> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to
> map out
> these methods, rather than simply skip the topic
> because it is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know
> what to do."
>
> In other words, physical discipline is reserved for
> those serious, special occasions when other methods
> have failed.
>
> For example, they do not recommend using physical
> discipline for *routine* housebreaking chores --
> only on those rare occasions when an already
> reliably housebroken dog is (after careful
> evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
> purpose, backsliding, etc.
>
> I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an
> adult dog was brought to me as an *incurable*
> house-soiler. It was either get the dog reliably
> housetrained or the dog was going on a one way trip
> to the pound. Being the kind, compassionate trainer
> that I am, I was prepared to do whatever it took to
> get this dog house-trained and save his life.
>
> After several weeks of more or less traditional
> training, and to poor result, I brought out the big
> guns -- physical and verbal discipline. Whenever the
> dog soiled the house (no, you don't even have to
> catch him in the act), I immediately (but very
> calmly) tossed a leash on his collar, dragged him to
> the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the
> chair, with his nose about two inches away from the
> poop. After a couple of swats on the rump, some
> loud vocalizing, and a wait of about 20 minutes, I'd
> release the dog and then ignore him for a while. I
> had to repeat this process *three* times, I think --
> and the house-soiling miraculously stopped. The dog
> went home to enjoy a long and contented life with
> his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> myself.
>
> So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for
> novices.
>
> Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
>
> -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the
> detonator to reply via e-mail
Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI, marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
"NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation," dermer:
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
P.S. Contacting Dr. P:
P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{}TPW ; ~ } >
> --------------------------------------
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
GOT MILK?