Bitch won't stop peeing on the floor
Ted Mittelstaedt
We are at our wits end on this.
We got a 1 year old German Shorthair/terrier mix about a month ago.
(shelter dog) She
is about half the size of a typical black lab.
When we got her she wasn't housebroken all that well (what do you expect I
guess)
We applied the usual housebreak training tricks and got her to stop
pooping in the house. But,
she seems to almost be fighting us about the peeing.
Her usual day is we get up at 6am and let her out of her crate, then take
her immediately
outside where she pees and poops. Then we go inside and eat breakfast,
shower and such.
Generally sometime before 8am she has peed on the floor. It's maybe about
a half tablespoon
or so. We can take her out immediately and she will pee some more, in other
words she isn't
just dumping her bladder. We have taken her to the vet and she is fine.
I've caught her in the act and yelled at her, so have some other family
members. She definitely
knows she isn't supposed to be doing this - if I put her on the leash to go
out and even go near
whatever spot she peed at she will avoid it. And she is very sneaky about
when she pees - she
only pees if she thinks that nobody is paying attention to her.
We can put her in her crate and she is fine - she has never peed or pooped
in her crate, even
when left in her crate for hours at a time (as when we are out at work)
She is a very active dog and likes to go outside. I have observed that if
she is taken outside
quite a lot during the day - like, almost hourly - she doesen't seem to pee
in the house as much, but
at this point it is a trust issue - none of us can trust she won't pee if we
turn our back on her when she
is out of her crate. So we are putting her in her crate more and more, even
when people are at
home. This isn't good for her I am sure and we don't like it either.
Both my wife and I have grown up with dogs and we don't mind an occassional
mess and we understand
a dog is going to pee on the floor if they aren't let out when they need to
go. But, this is getting rediculous.
We can't have a dog that will pee on the floor every 2 hours when free to
run about the place,
but is perfectly able to hold it for 4-5 hours if crated, and doesen't pee
if lying on our bed, sofa, etc.
We feel sure that she is turning this pee on the floor thing into some sort
of power struggle/attention
getting mechanism. But she gets plenty of attention already - when we are
home in the evening we
are always petting her or letting her lie on the sofa when we are watching
TV, and our kids pay her
a lot of attention when they are home from school.
Any suggestions on how to curb this would be most appreciated!
Ted
montana wildhack
> We have taken her to the vet and she is fine.
Maybe she isn't fine.
I assume you did at least a urine test. Is she spayed? Could she have
spay incontinence? Is this submissive peeing?
Yelling at her will not do any good.
You need to use a special enzyme cleaner to really get rid if the smell
of urine.
I would also highly recommend that you do training with your dog to
build her confidence.
Good luck.
Dale Atkin
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:cbbe06-...@news.ipinc.net...
> Hi All,
>
> We are at our wits end on this.
>
> We got a 1 year old German Shorthair/terrier mix about a month ago.
> (shelter dog) She
> is about half the size of a typical black lab.
>
> When we got her she wasn't housebroken all that well (what do you expect
> I guess)
>
> We applied the usual housebreak training tricks and got her to stop
> pooping in the house.
Can you outline 'the usual tricks'? Want to know if we're talking about the
same thing.
> But,
> she seems to almost be fighting us about the peeing.
I wouldn't assume that from what you've written (although I can understand
how you might draw that conclusion, I'd not be drawing it myself from what
you've written)
>
> Her usual day is we get up at 6am and let her out of her crate, then take
> her immediately
> outside where she pees and poops. Then we go inside and eat breakfast,
> shower and such.
>
> Generally sometime before 8am she has peed on the floor. It's maybe
> about a half tablespoon
> or so.
So it doesn't sound like her bladder is full. She's peeing for some other
reason.
> We have taken her to the vet and she is fine.
Specifically what tests have you done?
>
> I've caught her in the act and yelled at her, so have some other family
> members.
You've got to be very careful with this kind of thing. One likely outcome is
that she will simply learn not to pee when you're watching.
>She definitely
> knows she isn't supposed to be doing this - if I put her on the leash to
> go out and even go near
> whatever spot she peed at she will avoid it. And she is very sneaky about
> when she pees - she
> only pees if she thinks that nobody is paying attention to her.
See above comment. She may simply have learned that peeing when you're
watching is a bad idea, not that peeing in the house is a bad idea in
general. In fact that could be part of her issue.
> So we are putting her in her crate more and more, even when people are at
> home. This isn't good for her I am sure and we don't like it either.
One possible 'compromise' is tether training. Put her on leash when you're
home. Keep a close eye on her, and watch her for signs of 'doing the potty
dance', and then rush outside and praise/treat her when she pees.
> We feel sure that she is turning this pee on the floor thing into some
> sort of power struggle/attention
> getting mechanism.
Again, I wouldn't draw that conclusion from what you've told me. Its
tempting, but I think its far more likely that she just hasn't generalized
to the must pee outside of the house rule.
> Any suggestions on how to curb this would be most appreciated!
>
> Ted
I'd like to revisit the medical tests you've done. I assume this included a
urine stick. What looking at it under the microscope?
What kind of 'posture' does she assume when she pees?
Could it be painful for her to pee?
How have you let her know the right place to pee?
Does she always pee on the same kind of surface?
In the same place?
How have you cleaned this space?
If the same place, can you restrict access to that space?
Was she spayed when she came to the shelter, or did the shelter spay her?
My course of action right now (assuming we can rule out medical, which would
be my first inclination), would be to crate her when ever you can't watch
her, and keep her on leash when ever she's out of her crate. When you think
she might be getting ready to pee, take her outside, treat/praise etc. every
time she pees where she's supposed to (maybe even specify one particular
surface for her to pee on, like dirt or rocks so that she can definitely
tell the difference).
Hope that helps, and be sure to keep us in the loop,
Dale
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Dale Atkin" <labr...@ibycus.com> wrote in message
news:Ll1Zk.1794$si6.1429@edtnps83...
> Comments interspersed.
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:cbbe06-...@news.ipinc.net...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > We are at our wits end on this.
> >
> > We got a 1 year old German Shorthair/terrier mix about a month ago.
> > (shelter dog) She
> > is about half the size of a typical black lab.
> >
> > When we got her she wasn't housebroken all that well (what do you
expect
> > I guess)
> >
> > We applied the usual housebreak training tricks and got her to stop
> > pooping in the house.
>
> Can you outline 'the usual tricks'? Want to know if we're talking about
the
> same thing.
>
Every time she pooped outdoors we praised her, "good doggie" the usual
thing.
I'm sure it provided lots of amusement to passers by to see us saying "good
poopie" "good doggie" and so on to the dog when she just took a dump or
peed outside. The few times she pooped in the house we immediately moved
the poop outside and made sure that when we took her out she smelled it.
> > But,
> > she seems to almost be fighting us about the peeing.
>
> I wouldn't assume that from what you've written (although I can understand
> how you might draw that conclusion, I'd not be drawing it myself from what
> you've written)
>
> >
> > Her usual day is we get up at 6am and let her out of her crate, then
take
> > her immediately
> > outside where she pees and poops. Then we go inside and eat breakfast,
> > shower and such.
> >
> > Generally sometime before 8am she has peed on the floor. It's maybe
> > about a half tablespoon
> > or so.
>
> So it doesn't sound like her bladder is full. She's peeing for some other
> reason.
>
> > We have taken her to the vet and she is fine.
>
> Specifically what tests have you done?
>
I wasn't given a list by the vet. The ved did find giardia which we had to
give her 5 mg of this white stuff for 7 days to get rid of. I also had her
tested for heartworm and put her on heartworm meds. We don't have
a large incidence of heartworm in our area, but the meds are so cheap
espically if you get them online that it's kind of pennywise/pound foolish
to not do it.
> >
> > I've caught her in the act and yelled at her, so have some other family
> > members.
>
> You've got to be very careful with this kind of thing. One likely outcome
is
> that she will simply learn not to pee when you're watching.
>
> >She definitely
> > knows she isn't supposed to be doing this - if I put her on the leash to
> > go out and even go near
> > whatever spot she peed at she will avoid it. And she is very sneaky
about
> > when she pees - she
> > only pees if she thinks that nobody is paying attention to her.
>
> See above comment. She may simply have learned that peeing when you're
> watching is a bad idea, not that peeing in the house is a bad idea in
> general. In fact that could be part of her issue.
>
She has no problems peeing outside, whether on leash or not. Quite often
when
I take her out (I usually take her out in the evening) we won't have walked
more
than 100 feet before she pees in the grass strip between the sidewalk and
the
street.
> > So we are putting her in her crate more and more, even when people are
at
> > home. This isn't good for her I am sure and we don't like it either.
>
> One possible 'compromise' is tether training. Put her on leash when you're
> home. Keep a close eye on her, and watch her for signs of 'doing the potty
> dance', and then rush outside and praise/treat her when she pees.
>
The one time I tried putting her on a leash inside, within 5 minutes she had
chewed through it. (obviously I wasn't watching her) After that I managed
to
find an old metal chain leash
at a secondhand store. (I don't understand why all the leashes you see in
the stores today are fabric straps, but what do I know) She likes chewing
and has her rubber chew toys and we also give her a raw bone (beef
knuckle, generally) every 3-4 days, so along with the rubber toys she
usually has a few old bones around that we haven't tossed out yet.
We caught her testing the table leg a few times and scolded her and
that seems to have taken care of it. She is also very good off leash, will
come when called and all of that.
If we had the time to constantly keep a close eye on her when we are in
the house we wouldn't have this problem. But there's only so many hours
in the day - I get home around 6pm and go to bed at 10pm - to do that
would require me watching her constantly for 4 hours in the evening, and
it's just out of the question. We have to do mundane things like eat, wash
dishes, put kids to bed, pay bills, etc. not to mention walking the dog in
the evenings. It would be nice to work
at one of those fantasy jobs that the people in the soap operas work at
where
they seem to have unlimited time to do whatever, but training that depends
on
that is simply unrealistic for most people.
In general in the evening we don't have this problem. We have to
crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
table otherwise, but once dinner is over we let her out, and she is
available to interact with the family. Generally around 9pm she is
satisfied
to lie down on the sofa. We take her out once when I get home and once
later before bed and she is fine with that, and we have no problems with
peeing in the evening.
We also do not feed her after 5pm and we stop putting food in her bowl
around 3pm, she generally finishes it off before 5. She has water all of
the
time, of course. We have had rats before in this house (sewer break in
the neighborhood, and the house was built in 1911) and everything
edible is either stored in steel or stored outside (where the rats can
fight the possums for it) We never allow uneaten dog food in her
bowl overnight.
Most of the peeing seems to happen in the morning or afternoon, when
my wife is distracted with taking care of the kids. That is one of the
problems
as well.
> > We feel sure that she is turning this pee on the floor thing into some
> > sort of power struggle/attention
> > getting mechanism.
>
> Again, I wouldn't draw that conclusion from what you've told me. Its
> tempting, but I think its far more likely that she just hasn't generalized
> to the must pee outside of the house rule.
>
Well I am hoping that that is it.
> > Any suggestions on how to curb this would be most appreciated!
> >
> > Ted
>
> I'd like to revisit the medical tests you've done. I assume this included
a
> urine stick. What looking at it under the microscope?
>
I don't know. I'll call the vet and ask about this. Perhaps they
didn't do as good a job as I had assumed.
> What kind of 'posture' does she assume when she pees?
> Could it be painful for her to pee?
I don't think so. Her posture is the typical bitch-squat posture, it
doesen't
seem any different than any other bitches I've seen or lived with, and it
is no different inside or outside.
> How have you let her know the right place to pee?
:-) Other than peeing myself (not really feasible in the city) where
I want her to pee, and praising her when she does pee outside, I
don't know what else I can do.
> Does she always pee on the same kind of surface?
Not really. In the house she has never peed on anything other than
the carpet, but we have wall to wall carpeting except in the kitchen.
Outside, she has peed on grass and leaves on grass.
We live a block from an elementary school with a large field, so
when we take her out, we generally go there and let her off leash so
she can run. Everyone else with dogs in the neighborhood does this
also and in the evenings after the field is opened to the public there's
usually 3-4 of us with our dogs out there playing ball-chuck or
whatever. She loves that time, her favorite thing is chasing larger
dogs, and she is fast enough to keep up (and, outrun the fatter ones)
> In the same place?
That is semi-random. Right now we have her confined to the kitchen, living
& dining
room. She has peed a couple times in the bedrooms, and isn't allowed in
them
unless very closely supervised. There aren't a lot of places to pee where
she
is allowed access to, so she tends to stay in the same area when she
pees, but not always.
> How have you cleaned this space?
We blot it up then spray on Fabrese (probably spelled that wrong) I
don't think it's an enzyme/organic animal deodorizor, any suggestions
you have would be appreciated. Fortunately, the carpets had been
needing to be cleaned right before we got her and we have delayed
doing this until we were sure there would be no accidents.
> If the same place, can you restrict access to that space?
Not easily. One place she peed was 6 inches from the front door.
> Was she spayed when she came to the shelter, or did the shelter spay her?
>
We have a vet receipt that was in her file that states she was spayed.
> My course of action right now (assuming we can rule out medical, which
would
> be my first inclination), would be to crate her when ever you can't watch
> her, and keep her on leash when ever she's out of her crate. When you
think
> she might be getting ready to pee, take her outside, treat/praise etc.
every
> time she pees where she's supposed to (maybe even specify one particular
> surface for her to pee on, like dirt or rocks so that she can definitely
> tell the difference).
>
It's very difficult to get her to pee by just walking 5 steps from the porch
to the yard and just standing there. She rarely does it even when she needs
to go.
We have to start walking down the sidewalk and if she needs to go she will
pee within 20 steps or so. And we have -never- got her to poop unless
we walk her at least a block.
Part of the problem is that my wife, who
supervises her during the day (when she is home) is rather hesitant (in my
opinion) to use the crate. Ruby (the dog) doesen't like being crated when
there's anything interesting going on in the house and if put into the crate
will sometimes whine to get out. The crate is right in the kitchen which is
pretty close to most of the activity in the house, so she is able to see and
be near us when she is in the crate. I always crate her when we go to bed,
so she sleeps in the crate. Generally she is happy enough to be crated at
night. During the day, when my wife knows she will be gone for more than
4 hours at a time, she will put a fresh bone in the crate to keep the dog
occupied. At this point we always crate her when the house is going to
be empty.
> Hope that helps, and be sure to keep us in the loop,
>
Will do.
Ted
> Dale
>
Ted Mittelstaedt
"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2008120120230816807-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
> On 2008-12-01 19:16:11 -0500, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com>
said:
>
> > We have taken her to the vet and she is fine.
>
> Maybe she isn't fine.
>
> I assume you did at least a urine test. Is she spayed? Could she have
> spay incontinence? Is this submissive peeing?
>
How would I tell spay incontinence?
I don't think it's submissive peeing. I've seen dogs do that before and
I've never seen her squat when anyone has approached her. She isn't
easily rattled. We think part of her heritage must be a hunting breed, I've
seen her stand there and have a truck horn go off unexpectedly that
caused me to jump, and she ignores it, she also goes wild when she
sees a bird or a squirrl and I've seen her go into a point at a tree with
squirrls in it. I've also seen her snap at the throat of a larger dog that
was
doing dominance jumping on her that was obviously crossing the doggy line.
> Yelling at her will not do any good.
>
By "yelling" I really don't mean the yell like a fishwife nagging, I mean
saying her name very sharply and loudly when catching her doing it.
> You need to use a special enzyme cleaner to really get rid if the smell
> of urine.
>
> I would also highly recommend that you do training with your dog to
> build her confidence.
>
I really don't think it's a confidence thing. When we first got her she
was a lot more timid and very demanding of attention, but since then
she has become a lot more confident. I just don't think that it's a
confidence issue with a dog that the second you leave the kitchen
she is jumping up on the table and walking around looking for
scraps to eat. (we caught her doing that once, but she is of the size
that when she stands on her hind legs her head is at the stove and
table top level, and she will definitely inspect those areas for good
things to eat when we aren't looking)
> Good luck.
>
Thanks!
Ted
Janet Boss
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> The one time I tried putting her on a leash inside, within 5 minutes she had
> chewed through it. (obviously I wasn't watching her) After that I managed
> to
> find an old metal chain leash
> at a secondhand store. (I don't understand why all the leashes you see in
> the stores today are fabric straps, but what do I know)
Leashes of fabric or leather are much preferred for walking and
training. Chain leashes weigh on a dog's collar and teaching walking on
a loose leash makes less sense with that pressure.
> If we had the time to constantly keep a close eye on her when we are in
> the house we wouldn't have this problem. But there's only so many hours
> in the day - I get home around 6pm and go to bed at 10pm - to do that
> would require me watching her constantly for 4 hours in the evening, and
> it's just out of the question. We have to do mundane things like eat, wash
> dishes, put kids to bed, pay bills, etc. not to mention walking the dog in
> the evenings.
Join the club. My dogs are pretty much WITH me when I'm doing those
things. Warming my feet, hanging out nearby.
>
> In general in the evening we don't have this problem. We have to
> crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
> table otherwise,
That is a KID training issue. Teach BOTH of them table manners!
> We also do not feed her after 5pm and we stop putting food in her bowl
> around 3pm, she generally finishes it off before 5.
Free feeding is a really bad idea for a dog with elimination problems
(and IMO, not a good idea for most dogs). Start by scheduling her
feedings and giving her a limited time to eat.
> Most of the peeing seems to happen in the morning or afternoon, when
> my wife is distracted with taking care of the kids. That is one of the
> problems
> as well.
There are several options depending on the age of your children, their
needs that need attending, and the layout of your home. Keeping the dog
WITH the group, in some way, is the most helpful. That can be tethered
to an object or mom, gated in the same room (or doors shut to keep her
in the same room) etc.
You also mentioned a 2 hour window of her urinating and when she has
peed on the floor. Typically, MOST dogs (and especially young ones)
here have gone out at 6, peed, then fed (expected to eat all of the
food) then out again for more pee and poop, by 6:15. With a puppy or
not fully trained dog, I would have them out again at 7:15. Not too
hard if you have a fenced yard, but quick no matter what. Then again
before people leave for the day. How long is she crated during the day?
Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
natural rhythm of the bladder.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
montana wildhack
> How would I tell spay incontinence?
She's really young for that sort of thing, but incontinence is usually
seen as "leaking".
Thank you so much for coming back and having a dialogue.
One poster had recommended tethering her to you as one might do when
doing initial housetraining to ensure that you get her outside if she
starts sniffing. This would also eliminate counter-surfing when you
aren't looking.
Among other things, if she is favoring the carpet, she is probably
still smelling urine: hers or another dog's. You can get a small black
light at pet stores to check for urine. That's where the enzyme
cleaners are your friend.
It does sound like you need to work on training! That can help with
several issues you are experiencing.
Please keep us informed of your progress.
Spot
Because it's not being cleaned immediately the dog smells the urine and will
keep going back to that spot again and again. I would suggest getting an
enzyme cleaner and invest in a hand held rug scrubber and get to work on the
places she's had accidents. You will never get anywhere with the peeing
issue if you don't clean the carpets. I may take multiple scrubbings to get
the odor out. I had one particular spot that the pup kept going to. I
scrubbed it 5 days in a row to make sure I got all the odor out and that
finally eliminated the problem.
Celeste
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:cbbe06-...@news.ipinc.net...
> Hi All,
You mean 'HOWEDY Gang Of Pathetic Miserable Stinkin
Rotten Lyin Animal Murderin Punk Thug Coward Active
Acute Chronic Life-Long INCURABLE Malignant Malici-
HOWES MENTAL CASES who jerk choke shock bribe
crate intimidate an surgically sexually MUTILATE innocent
defenseless dumb critters an LIE abHOWET it' <{}: ~ ( >
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard, Director Of
Trainin an Research, Wits' End Training Method
Manual Forums And Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory <{}'; ~ ) >
I've got forty five years of EXXXPERIENCE raising
and training mostly giant breed working dogs for families
and security specializing in temperament and behavior
problems and protection <{}: ~ ) >
> We are at our wits end on this.
Well then, you've come to the RIGHT place~!
WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Training Method
Manual Forums And Human And Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory <{}'; ~ ) >
I see you've met HOWER Gang Of Pathetic Miserable
Stinkin Rotten Lyin Animal Murderin Punk Thug
Coward Active Acute Chronic Life-Long INCURABLE
Malignant MaliciHOWES MENTAL CASES who jerk
choke shock bribe crate intimidate an surgically sexually
MUTILATE innocent defenseless dumb critters an LIE
abHOWET it, who's own dogs GOT THE SAME FUCKIN
PROBLEM for the SAME FUCKIN REASONS <{}: ~ ( >
> We got a 1 year old German Shorthair/terrier mix about a month ago.
> (shelter dog) She is about half the size of a typical black lab.
Well then, you shouldn't have NO doGdameneD PROBLEM
for jerkin an chokin an shockin your dog to MAKE IT naturally
WANT to DO ANY THING you ask <{}: ~ ) >
> When we got her she wasn't housebroken all that well
That so, Ted? THAT'S a LOAD of BULLSHIT.
HOWEsbreakin is a critters MOST NORMAL, NATURAL,
INNATE, INSTINCTIVE, REFELXIVE behavior startin at
FOUR WEEKS of age; actually, it starts at THREE weeks,
HOWEver, MOST of your newfHOWEND Pathetic Miserable
Stinkin Rotten Lyin Animal Murderin Punk Thug Coward Active
Acute Chronic Life-Long INCURABLE Malignant MaliciHOWES
MENTAL CASE PALS who jerk choke shock bribe crate intimidate
an surgically sexually MUTILATE innocent defenseless dumb
critters an LIE abHOWET it, wouldn't ever NOTICE <{}: ~ ( >
> (what do you expect I guess)
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing,
Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat,
Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard, Director
Of Trainin an Research, Wits' End Training Method Manual
Forums And Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences
Research Laboratory would EXXXPECT a savvy EXXXPERIENCED
news group poster such as yourself woulda SEARCED the ARCHIVES
for a SOLUTION to your "dogs' PROBLEM", instead of INCITING
these LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN MENTAL CASES <{}'; ~ ) >
> We applied the usual housebreak training tricks
Ahhh; The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey
Wizard, Director Of Trainin an Research, Wits' End
Training Method Manual Forums And Human And
Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory
AIN'T NEVER trained a TRICK dog; HE TEACHES
folks ALL OVER the WHOWEL WILD WORLD HOWE
to PUPPERLY handle, raise an train ALL critters to
ALL behaviors NEARLY INSTANTLY, simply by
DOIN EVERY THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY
OPPOSITE of HOWE your newfHOWEND pathetic
ignorameHOWE punk thug coward MENTAL CASE
PALS prefer <{}'; ~ ) >
> and got her to stop pooping in the house.
I've waited a couple days for the ignorameHOWESES
to give your their sage ADVICE, Ted; you had any
LUCK thus far?
> But, she seems to almost be fighting us about the peeing.
INDEED?
There's ONLY TWO REASONS HOWE COME a critter
would shit an piss in *YOUR* HOWES, Ted:
1. They're SICK
OR
2. They're UNHAPPY.
PERHAPS you should take your HAPPY puppy to the vet?
> Her usual day is we get up at 6am and let her out of her crate,
Dogs just LOVE bein LOCKED IN BOXES and IGNORED
or better yet, SPRAYED IN THE FACE for barkin an whining.
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
AND LIKE THIS:
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey
<mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
Here's janet's CUSTOME MADE pronged spiked pinch choke collar:
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?
janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).
They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.
-------------------
LIKE THIS:
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first
time, spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth
and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled with
this but just ignore him and continue your normal
behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
SEE?
> then take her immediately outside where she pees and poops.
That's KINDLY of you, Ted~!
> Then we go inside and eat breakfast, shower and such.
A WIZE idea <{}: ~ ) >
> Generally sometime before 8am she has peed on the floor.
Naaaah?
> It's maybe about a half tablespoon or so.
Oh, well THAT sounds like "spay / neuter incontinence"
OR a urinary tract infection CAUSED BY lockin your
dog in a box an IGNORING ITS CRIES and withholding
his food an water JUST LIKE HOWE your newfHOWEND
Pathetic Miserable Stinkin Rotten Lyin Animal Murderin
Punk Thug Coward Active Acute Chronic Life-Long
INCURABLE Malignant MaliciHOWES MENTAL CASE
PALS PREFER <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
From: Janet B <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:23:53 -0400
Subject: urinary leaking
Rudy has a vet appointment tomorrow afternoon,
but I thought I'd throw this out here anyway.
Rudy has excitement urination sometimes - if I spend too long before
coming into the house, he may flood his crate. This is generally only
if I've been gone over 4 hours. He does not have water in his crate.
Rudy sleeps through the night (10-6 or 7) and never has an issue
with leaking then. He is housebroken and waits until I let him out.
A few times over the last month, after I've been gone a bit over
5 hours, I've come home, let him out where he pees up a storm,
then he is fed, out again, maybe multiple times (for play, etc)
and eliminates normally. Then he naps. When he's sleeping,
he leaks.
Baseball-Softball sized puddle generally. Yesterday, I as home
with him all day, gone for <2 hours in the early evening, and late
in the evening, right before bed, he leaked again while sleeping.
This doesn't strike me as an infection or even a sphincter issue,
but it has me puzzled. He has no idea he's doing it and it doesn't
wake him.
Any thoughts?
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
-------------------------
From: J1Boss (j1b...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Aggression: Follow-up, still need help
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 1998/11/09
lesaigle writes (re dog aggression):
> Are there other ways besides
> grabbing the scruff of his neck?
>
> Erin -
I think your behaviorist is wrong in her approach.
On the other hand, you want to avoid getting bitten.
This is a situation where I would use a "kennel lead"
AND a NILIF routine. First - the NILIF - basically,
everything should be on YOUR terms.
If the dog wants to be petted/play ball/whatever, he
must do something that you ask first. No pawing at
you, no grabbing you, no biting you. Eliminate treats
Exercise the hell out of the little guy.
Practice every obedience command you know, and use
them in practical purposes. Make the dog sit (or even
better yet - DOWN) and stay before being given PERMISSION
to eat. Don't let the dog decide ANYTHING - everything
should be done because YOU want to, not him.
Now, the kennel lead. Basically, dog on chair (which is
going to be a no-no, invited or not), growls at you when
you tell him to get off?
Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him
a stern correction, popping him off the furniture as you
do. Still snarly? Hold him off with the leash and ask
him to sit.
Hold him off enough for him to "chill", then go
through a short obedience routine.
During the evening, put him on a leash (with a choke
collar), and make him down near your chair/sofa while
you read, watch tv, whatever. Correct any attempts
to paw or bite at you, or get on the sofa.
My bet is, that after 2 weeks tops, he's gonna figure out
that his arguing will get him nowhere but popped onto the
floor, and he can't bite with the leash control. Let us know!
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
"Read your question for the obvious answer"
LIKE THIS:
Subject: The crate escape - my brilliant puppy!
1 From: Janet B
Date: Wed, Apr 5 2006 7:44 am
Email: Janet B j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com
After Rudy came to stay with us, I got tired of running
into an open crate door, so I bought a new crate, with a
door that folds up and in. "can't be opened from the inside"
says the ad. I always looked at these and hought "right",
but for the last few months (yes, folks, it's been 3.5 months)
it has worked great.
Until Monday.
That's when Mr Smarty-pants decided he knew how
to open it. And greeted us at the door after 6+ hours
of freedom.
A chewed wastebasket lid and a puddle inside the
front door (he loses it if very excited and yesterday
morning I found evidence that a smallish dog had
apparently "visited" right outside my full view front
door) was all that was wrong.
So yesterday, when I left for a short errand, I made
sure to clip the door closed securely. And once again
came home to an unconfined puppy.
So, today, the crate will get clips on the door to ensure
this doesn't happen again. I need him to learn that he
shouldn't let himself out.
But it looks like he's going to be allowed house freedom
within a few days, and since he'll be 9 months old on
Monday, that'll be the day.
I'll take the next few days to put some shoes away and
check out other things he may be interested in, and get
out the bitter apple.
My house is not exactly the neatest place in the world,
and there's a lot of stuff that may be too available and
interesting. We shall see.
My puppy is growing up and too smart for his own good!
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
THAT'LL make dogs DEATHLY ILL, janet <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:janet-C794AF....@news.individual.net...
> In article <13tdvmj9calq...@corp.supernews.com>, "BethInAK"
> <bethi...@clearwire.net> wrote:
>> Thats just so freaking annoying. Its past morning.
>> I must know whats going on.
> Sorry - I had to leave the house at 12:30 and just got home at 6.
> Good news is that he doesn't have diabetes. Bad news
> is it's pointing to congenital kidney defect.
> We're doing a repeat of the BUN and Creatinine test on Thursday,
> this time with a 10-12 hour fast. We're also going to do a specific
> gravity on first thing of the morning urine, to see if he's concentrating
> the urine overnight when he's not drinking water. I have notes, but
> basically the blood work showed the BUN and Creatinine as just over
> high normal, and the urine was high on something -
> I have to look and remember what.
> The step after that is an ultrasound to see what
> we're dealing with, kidney wise.
> The really F***ing bad news is that if this is what it is, there's not a
> damn thing that can be done except take it one day at a time and now
> that we'll face renal failure at some point. The fact that he's having
> this problem at only 2 is not a particularly promising sign.
> F***ING PUPPYMILLS!
> I'll post whenever I know more and have any more meaningful results.
> Thanks to all for the concern and thoughts. --
> Janet Boss www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Google Results: 2,660,000 for KIDNEY "RENAL
FAILURE" OR "KIDNEY DISEASE" & STRESS
Results: 288,000 for KIDNEY "RENAL FAILURE"
OR "KIDNEY DISEASE" EMOTIONAL STRESS
Results: 249,000 for "oxidative stress" KIDNEY OR
RENAL OR CONGENITAL "AUTOIMMUNE"
"I do use a variety of collars when training dogs. I'm
not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I don't find
them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar,
and find prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.
Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
--------------------------
Here's janet's SUCCESS trainin her own puppy:
From: J1Boss (j1b...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: housebreaking in a multi level home
Date: 2002-06-27 03:30:11 PST
> From: Rocky
> Nessa wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> why does Franklin have to be on a leash?
>
> I think that Franklin's been naughty.
>
>--
>--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
and apparently pretty sneaky too -
can't figure this one out still!
FYI - He ingested a mystery sock.
Hadn't done that in well over a year.
When he was a puppy we were very lucky -
they went through or came up. We've done
"sock work" with him leaving them alone,
but mostly are pretty conscientious about
not making them available.
The risk is obviously too high. One of his
littermates beat him to the punch with the
same surgery, and his great grandfather had
this habit until he died at age 12.
My MIL was visiting (sockless!) and since he
wasn't with me every waking moment as usual
as a result, I can only imagine that the sock
presented itself somehow while she was with him.
He was a very, very sick dog. He had emergency
surgery on Monday, but was home by Tuesday - we
lucked out that the sock had advanced enough that
they didn't need to cut the bowel.
Once he was opened, they were able to manipulate
the sock out his rectum. He thinks he's fine, so
the leash is very necessary! He's got about a foot
of staples on his tummy, and this was a very
expensive sock!
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
--------------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAA~!~!~!
FRANKLIN and JANET, ACT II
From: J1Boss (j1b...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: What can I do if I can't afford a behaviorist?
Date: 2002-06-27 05:20:30 PST
> From: diddy d...@nospam.diddy.net
> Some dogs are really adept at getting
> out of things, even the impossible.
Yes indeed. I crated Franklin when I had to
leave yesterday. He's post surgical and needs
to be confined and rest/kept safe.
He is used to crates, has not problem with
them and does not "escape" (mesh crates, wire
crates, etc - he takes them all in stride,
whether strange places or at home).
When I got home, both dogs greeted me at the
door. He had managed to bend the clips on the
end panel of his metal crate (General Cage 204)
and squeeze out the top/side of the end panel
that has the door. The door was securely closed.
THAT was NOT a good thing to do with a foot of
staples in your tummy. He hadn't done it before -
but he's not his usual self obviously.
We won't be trying that again any time soon!
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
---------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
janet's dogs are DEAD an DYIN from STRESS INDUCED
AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE a.k.a. The Puppy Wizard's
Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >:
From: lucyaa...@claque.net
Date: Sun, Dec 4 2005 3:26 am
Email: lucyaa...@claque.net
Janet B wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2005 10:55:42 -0800, "sighthounds & siberians"
> <greyho...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
> > Oh, please. You're asking Lucy to understand that a behavior
> > can be genetic in a dog, which IMO is asking a great deal.
Yeah, what do I know about genetically determined behavior? At
some point in the evolution of Franklin's breed a mutation occurred
that determined a propensity for sock-swallowing; and, considering
the fact that this acquired behavior conferred such an evolutionary
advantage to the breed, natural selection favored it all the time until
it was passed on to Franklin's parents and grandparents, and hopefully
to Franklin's offspring, so that such a valuable trait wouldn't, God
forbid, be lost due to some other random mutation quirk. Nice how
genetics work, in Sally's world!
> >It's ironic that Lucy (whose tone from the get-go is much more
> >sarcastic and confrontational than would seem warranted) should
> >reappear just now, isn't it?
"Ironic?" About as ironic as any random event, and
as probable as a dog being born with a taste for socks.
> > Mustang Sally
> oh I know, and I fed the troll.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, good-hearted Janet!
I was STARVING!
But - can you tell me what exactly is it that makes me
a troll, when posting on topic on a dog behavior matter?
> Even they need treats once in awhile, no? OK - maybe not!
> The holiday spirit must have gotten the better of me.
Yes, Janet, you're way too good. Don't let it become a habit, though
-
you might find it difficult next time when having
to use your pretty choke collar on a dog.
Lucy
-------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> We can take her out immediately and she will pee some
> more, in other words she isn't just dumping her bladder. We have taken
> her to the vet and she is fine.
No, your dog AIN'T FINE, Ted. IF your dog WAS FINE
you WOULDN'T be doin what you been doin, LIKE THIS:
"Anthony Testa" <testa52...@aol.com wrote in messag news:
c603fe9c.02032...@posting.google.com...
I moved to Jacksonville, Florida about a year ago
with my lovely wife linda. 3 times a week for 7
months I visited the Dog shelter and Humane Society
looking for a German Shepherd.
There were several times they had a dog there, but
I was looking for a bitch. The reason for this is,
all my life I have always had a female German shepherd.
Therefore, I wanted another one. Finally about 6 weeks
ago, I found her. "Angel" looked just like my previous
dog of 12 years. I called my wife, she came down and
fellin love with her immediately.
We filled out the paper work and left the Humane Society
with her. We drove directly to Pet Smart to buy all the
essentials. We bought the biggest crate available. Let
it be known I have never used a crate with any of my
previous dogs. The biggest difference is my other dogs
I had from puppy age. Angel just turned 2, 3 days before
adoption.
Angel appeared to be happy the trip home. Her ears were
down all the time and her tail was so far between her
legs that it looked like she had 3 ears. (humor) None
the less, we knew we had a dog that was insecure. The
first night we let Angel sleep in the living room.
However, we had to go to work the next day. We pet her,
kissed her and put her in the crate in the middle of the
living room. During the day, my sons came home to walk
her, give her a little loving and play with her. Then
put her back in the crate and go to work.
When we got home the first day, everything in the crate
was ripped to shreds. The neighbors approached us and
said that the dogs barked constantly for 3 hours then
barked continuously after my sons left again. We thought
it was because everything was new. We were wrong. The
dog did this every day for 4 days.
The 4th day was our first scheduled visit with the vet.
The vet told us he can see that the dog is suffering
from abuse and separation anxiety. So, the vet puts the
dog on clomicalm. (not sure of the spelling).
Well, for two days the dog walked around like Jerry
Garcia on a Friday night after a concert, stoned!
However, we were home with her the entire weekend.
We crated her for work and came home to a barking dog,
ripped bedding in the crate, upset neighbors and the
plastic bottom of the crate completely torn to bits.
It was obvious that crating was not a good thing. The
next day we decided to leave her out of the crate to
see what would happen. What a major mistake. We came
home to almost $1,000 in damage. Furniture, the blinds
were all chewed and torn down, etc.
The next day we put her in the crate again. This time
we came home to a nice 2' x 3' hole in our carpet in
the middle of the living room, right down to the cement.
I told my wife that we cannot afford to keep this dog.
We should go out and get a puppy. She was upset and said
there must be something we can do. I told her this. "I
will go on the internet and see what is available". I was
desperate and wanted to see if there was someone who could
help.
We read the information about the DDR and emailed Jerry.
Jerry was kind enough to give us his phone number to
discuss Angel in more detail.
First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started doing
exactly what he said to do in the manual. Exactly as we
did was was written, the results were exactly as he said
it would be. Then we purchased the DDR.
This is an amazing god send to us. First of all, Jerry
sent it to us without paying. (thanks for that gesture)
This has such and AMAZING effect. This testimonial is
kind of winded so I will say this...... Jerry's product
literally saved this dogs life.
Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry
told us the product works immediately and it did! She
does not bark at all during the day except when the
mailman drops mail into the slot on the door.
The manual for training works exactly as it says!
We told our vet about this and he said that there are
all kind of gimmicks. I told my vet that as a person
who holds a degree of higher education, there just are
some things they don't have in the text books and he
should be receptive to that. We are proof. Angel was
one day from going back to the humane society.
Listen to this... My wife wrote one of the so called
know it all of pets. His response to the exact letter
we initially wrote to Jerry..."Get rid of the dog,
bring her back" I'll save this person embarrassment
by not saying the name. However, you know who you are
and I have this to say to you. Go pump gas or bus tables
because you sir, do not belong working with animals!
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results of
your product, you have my number. We would gladly talk
to them.
Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa Jacksonville, Florida
=====================
> m...@bangnetcom.com (Mark Shaw) wrote in message
<news:lmWo8AeR...@panix.com>...
> > In article <c603fe9c.0203260607.77c28...@posting.google.com>,
> > testa52...@aol.com (Anthony Testa) wrote:
> > [...]
> > > Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
> > > group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
> > > many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
>
> > > You just keep plugging away at what you do, because you
> > > my friend are a life saver!!!
>
> > Okay, who the heck ARE you, really?
> Who am I? My real name is posted. The story you have read is
> true.
> We were at witts end, found Jerry's web page by
> happenstance, wrote to him almost exactly what you read, he
> gave me his suggestions, told me what my results would be
> including a time line and, you know what? He was and still
> is, right on the money.
> I don't care if he's a warlock, a professor, disgruntled
> Entomologist, or a man with a niche that makes the sciences
> itchy, he saved the day AND a dog's life.
> We were given suggestions from Medication, to a Behavioral
> Specialist. I decided that instead of creating a Jerry
> Garcia or pay 125.00 dollars an hour for my dog to lay on a
> couch to be freudiated, I decided Jerry Howe's method seemed
> to be more humane and serene. It worked, end of story.
> A. Testa
=====================
> My student Anthony summed it all up:
"Alpha" <sween...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:bsf69.5447$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Well there you go, I was willing to believe but then jerry
> it was another hallucination of yours, just like all those
> thank you letters you write, a lie, a fabrication, a wank...
> > From: TESTA52601 (testa52...@aol.com)
> > Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
> > Date: 2002-03-28 10:01:34 PST
> > Alpha,
> > It's uneducated, ball breakers like you that create dismay
> > throughout this society. Get a life. you took apart a
> > letter from someone who has shown nothing but love and
> > caring, including lots of money and twisted it to YOUR point.
> > Ever consider politics? I challenge you to show me your
> > credentials and results you come up with. The things I did
> > with the dog WAS against MY wishes. However, I listen
> > to pencil neck geeks that sit behind a monitor and get 30
> > different suggestions. This dog could not be happier if
> > she was gnawing on all three of your legs.
> > The bottom line to my letter was to tell people "don't
> > knock it until you try it"
> > P.S. Write me personally if you have any
> > credentials.......
===============
> I've caught her in the act and yelled at her,
Naaaah?:
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
SEE?
> so have some other family members.
INDEED?:
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment:
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
> She definitely knows she isn't supposed to be doing this -
That so? Oh, you mean, a dog violating a critters'
own TERRORTORIAL IMPERATIVE?:
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESES With PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
support or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your
relationship with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he
knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment.
You praise and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy,
and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving
aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his
enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say
"Good Dog" you love and praise him.
THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside
trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to
defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he
is safe, no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the
dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a
piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog
after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating
on the floor.
Fondly, Dr. Von
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the
big books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World,
WW in Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology,
since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW,
and you can't get yourself into them.
GvH
--------------------
> if I put her on the leash to go out and even go near
> whatever spot she peed at she will avoid it.
Naaaah?
Hey? A$$HOWEL? Do you suppHOWES THAT might
be on accHOWENTA you an the rest of the pathetic
miserable stinkin rotten ignorameHOWESES in your
family MIGHT have SCARED your dog with your ABUSE?
> And she is very sneaky about when she pees -
INDEED?
> she only pees if she thinks that nobody is paying attention to her.
Naaaah?
> We can put her in her crate and she is fine -
That so??
> she has never peed or pooped in her crate, even
> when left in her crate for hours at a time (as when we are out at work)
Yeah? HOWEver, she's shit an piss your HOWES
as soon as you stop WATCHING her, Ted??
> She is a very active dog and likes to go outside.
EXXXCEPT to relieve herself <{}: ~ ( >
> I have observed that if she is taken outside quite a lot
> during the day - like, almost hourly - she doesen't seem to pee in the
> house as much,
Naaaah?
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> but at this point it is a trust issue -
INDEED <{}: ~ ( >
Your dog DON'T TRUST YOU, or your ignorameHOWES family.
Abuse / Fear / Aggression / Hyperactivity / Shyness /
Depression / Suicide Attempts AIN'T Genetic Problems,
They're SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS,
Passed On From WON GeneratiHOWEN Of Abuser
To The Next,
Like The 100th Monkey Washin Fruit In The Stream.
After A While It's Not Just NORMAL, It's
-OBLIGATORY-
To Do OtherWIZE Would Be
DISRESPECTFUL
Of Your Parental Teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear, Hate, Reflex,
Self Will, Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment, Guilt,
Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness, Aversion, Attraction,
Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion, Change, Permanence,
Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition And Parental / ReligiHOWES /
Societal CONDITIONING;
*YOU ARE*
THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
There Are NO GRAY AREAS
Between
RIGHT And WRONG.
"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action
as separate, not the wise.
If any man knows one, he enjoys the fruit of both.
The level which is reached by wisdom
is attained
through right action as well.
He who perceives that the two are one knows the truth."
"Even the wise man acts in character with his nature,
indeed all creatures act according to their natures.
What is the use of compulsion then?
The love and hate which are aroused
by the objects of sense arise from Nature,
do not yield to them.
They only obstruct the path," -
- Bhagavad Gita,
adapted by Krishna with permission
from His OWN FREE copy of The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE Wits' End
Dog Training Method manual <{) ; ~ ) >
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
SEE?
> none of us can trust she won't pee if we turn our back on her when she is
> out of her crate.
THAT'S on accHOWENTA you PUNISH your dog JUST
LIKE HOWE you raised your ignorameHOWES children.
> So we are putting her in her crate more and more, even when people are at
> home. This isn't good for her I am sure and we don't like it either.
You wouldn't wanna SPOIL your dog, would you, Ted?
> Both my wife and I have grown up with dogs
That so?:
From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm.
My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.
Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.
Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
----------------------
4. From: "BlueMoon" <martha.br...@rogers.com>
Date: 24 Jun 2006 10:18:27 -0700
Subject: Training two at once
BlueMoon wrote:
Well, I'd take your advice and go thru the killfile as
you have recommended below, but Jerry's system Is
WORKING wonders with these two puppies in a
matter of days.
He may be abusive and short-tempered with some
people out there because, quite frankly, I think he
cares more about the dogs that the owner's feelings
and feels so strongly about it, it's aggravating to have
"experts" discount his methods.
My husband just got back from taking these 15 week
old pups for a walk, who now respond remarkably
well to the "Zena-Zoey-sit-good-girl!" phrase now
when only said once no matter where they are.
They also respond to the come here command. We
trained them (granted, out of order of the instructions)
with the pennies in the cans only two days ago to come
to us when called.
I've since backtracked to do the exercises in the proper order.
They are calm and well-behaved and impress the Hell
out of anyone who sees them. "You're kidding, they're
only 14 weeks old and they are THAT well behaved?"
Yessiree Bob, they are, and we've only had them
for 12 days and have been training them (correctly
for 3 days.
We still have more training exercises to do, but
why fix something if it's not broken???? These
dogs are happy, we don't have to yell at or scold
them, they are learning to be secure and to pay
attention to us for approval and not out of fear.
I can only assume some might be threatened by this
manual's methods because it goes against all human
logic on how to train a dog. It certainly didn't
make any sense to me, but I thought what the heck,
try it (even tho I still have to remind myself what
to do because my previous limited experiences with
dog training were SO DIFFERENT to the point that I
almost felt like I needed to take my brain out of
my head and put it back in backwards!!!.....).....
BUT THE SYSTEM WORKS!!!
How in the world could someone just "make
something up" and it WORK?>??>?
My husband was very doubtful about this method
when I told him I wanted to try this. His dad was
a vet, and certainly didn't use these methods with
the parade of dogs they had as kids. But now even
HE has to admit we're doing something right here,
as our stress and frustration levels have lowered
and EVERYONE is much happier around here,
especially the dogs!
I really don't think people are used to the notion that
you can train a dog and it NOT be stressful or difficult.
It's easy IF you do it just like the manual says. It might
be easier for some to NOT do it now and go with the
concept of control rather than respect and understanding,
because that's the way WE are used to thinking and
heaven forbid WE change OUR way of thinking and
admit we've done some counterproductive things in
the past, right?
The results I'm seeing here with these puppies speaks
volumes and discounts what anyone tells me otherwise.
This Wit's End manual is now in a binder
and we're sticking with it.
BlueMoon
------------------------
From: "BlueMoon" <martha.br...@rogers.com>
Date: 3 Oct 2006 10:51:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Anyone actually tried Jerry Howe's techniques?
I tried Jerry's techniques when we got 2 puppies, Lab/German
Shepard Mix, sisters, at 3 months old. I was really at a loss.
I'm not a dog trainer, and it had been years since I had a puppy to
train. My husband's Dad was a vet, so they had quite a few as he
was growing up. I downloaded the manual (it was free, what did
I have to lose?) and we were both surprised to see his methods
deliver results in just a few days.
Some methods took a bit longer, some showed immediate results,
but we've now got some of the best behaved and happiest dogs in
the neighbourhood.
It went against alot of pre-conceived ideas we had about how
to train a dog. It's been over 3 months now, and so far, so good.
I'm not saying other methods don't work, but I had no interest in
trying any of them after I saw the results from this. It worked for
us without having to bribe, scold, or get frustrated.
Praise and attention alone work wonders when done at the right moment.
If you just follow the manual, you'll find that he
really knows what he's talking about.
Bluemoon
SEE?
> and we don't mind an occassional mess
THAT'S KINDLY of you, Ted; HOWEver, your dog DOES
mind it; IN FACT, it's driving her INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
> and we understand a dog is going to pee on the floor if they aren't let
> out when they need to go.
THAT SO?:
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point
at the mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the
house or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
-----------------------
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for
answers - AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of blame
that we have to accept, but once we realize that we've caused
these problems to arise, we can strive to make things better.
AIMEE
*****************************
I THINK YOU GET THE POINT.
DON'T YOU.
> But, this is getting rediculous.
INDEED?
So your "SOLUTION" is to come HERE an DISTURB
the MENTAL CASES who's own dogs GOT THE SAME
PROBLEMS for the SAME REASONS??
> We can't have a dog that will pee on the floor every 2 hours when free to
> run about the place, but is perfectly
> able to hold it for 4-5 hours if crated, and doesen't pee if lying on our
> bed, sofa, etc.
Well then, perhaps you should TAKE IT to a veterinary
malpracticioner or JUST STOP feedin an waterin IT?
> We feel sure that she is turning this pee on the floor thing into some
> sort of power struggle/attention
> getting mechanism.
INDEED? Oh, you mean JUST LIKE HOWE IT SEZ
in your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES,
And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End
Training Method Manual:
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/777witsendmanual.htm
The actual INSTRUCTION begins on the third page "*777*
Wits' End Method", abHOWET 1/4 down the page starting
with "Here's ALL the INFORMATION you NEED" and my
phone # and instructions to CALL ANY TIME.
There you will find ALL the FREE information you need
to pupperly handle raise and train your pets and family.
Just follow the instructions PRECISELY and ASK me if
you need any additional FREE HEELP <{}: ~ ) >
You'll likeWIZE find ETHICAL nutrition and heelth
care practices taught on the heelth page *(last link
on the left side) of my website <{}'; ~ ) >
> But she gets plenty of attention already -
INDEED?
> when we are home in the evening we are always petting
> her or letting her lie on the sofa when we are watching TV, and our kids
> pay her a lot of attention when they are
> home from school.
Perhaps you should GET RID of the dog AND kids?
> Any suggestions on how to curb this would be most appreciated!
No, Ted. AS STATED: "The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES,
And Horsey Wizard TEACHES folks ALL OVER the
WHOWEL WILD WORLD HOWE to PUPPERLY
handle, raise an train ALL critters to ALL behaviors
NEARLY INSTANTLY, simply by DOIN EVERY
THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of
HOWE your newfHOWEND pathetic ignorameHOWE
punk thug coward MENTAL CASE PALS prefer <{}'; ~ ) >
LIKE THIS:
Subject: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods
1 From: Deltones
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 3:30 pm
Email: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
I've had my JR puppy for close to a month now (She's 3 mo),
and I want to say that I believe in Jerry Howe's method for
training my dog. I hate how he makes Webster cry with his
way of writing, and the fact he quotes every damn posts written
since the Big Bang in every replies he does.
A lot of you consider their dogs as a part of your family, but
I read so many posts about screaming, choking, shocking,
pinching, beating the living crap out of your dogs that I wonder
why some of you have them at all. Do you raise your kids that
way, or you raise them with kindness to the best of your abilities?
Yes, Jerry's online personnality totally sucks, and he would be
better served by having his Wit's End document speak for itself
and reply to people with the same kind of eloquence he shows
in his manual.
Unfortunately he doesn't, and as a result, the majority of people
here tuned him out. If you hate the messenger, don't disregard his
message, and do yourself the favor of downloading his manual and
read it at least once. Your dog deserves it.
Like previously stated, I have a 3 mo Jack Russell, and a lot
of people think these dogs become totally insane when left alone.
Mine has the full run of the house when I'm at work already.
Why?
Because she did go totally insane when I left her in her crate,
crapping on herself in the process. It was not fun.
I followed Jerry's advice and did the "Separation Anxiety"
method in the manual, and my house has not been destroyed.
Dog happier, house not destroyed?
That's all I needed to know.
If you're wondering, nope, she's not housebroken yet, and I
do come back with her business on the floor. Winter is starting
here in Montreal and she really hates going outside in the cold
(sorry Jerry, it's really not instinctive in her), so I know I will
have some difficulties with the housebreaking process.
Do I get frustrated to have to wash the floor every day?
Yeah I do, but I try my best not to show it to the dog. That's
the small price I decided to pay to have that small furball in
my life. I'm confident she'll get the hang of it, but I know that
it's not going to happen with kicking and screaming.
Tune out Jerry if you want if he doesn't make sense to you.
But give his Wit's End manual a good look, because when
he wrote it at that point in his life, he did.
------------
> Ted
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It," mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first
time, spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth
and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled with
this but just ignore him and continue your normal
behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
3. From: MiserableOldCrab <dontbothermeyoubraindead
@ssholefuckyou.invalid>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Training two at once
On 24 Jun 2006 10:18:27 -0700,
"BlueMoon" <martha.br...@rogers.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>I've just downloaded the Wit's End training manual and have been
>reading thru the first sections. I have a question. Seven days ago we
>became the owner of 2 14-week old puppies (sisters, Lab/German
>Shepard mix). Would these training methods work best if the dogs
>are separated for training or should we try these techniques with
>both of them at thesame time?
>
>Thanks!
>BlueMoon
Hello BlueMoon,
Just wanted to warn you about this pervert,
newsgroup abuser and convicted felon who is trolling
the room. His alias is The Amazing Puppy Wizard
and real name is Jerry Howe.
Since you are new here, you just got hooked by replying
to this well known netloon and troll. Once he baits you
as he does with others, you became troll bait and he will flame
you and harass you through this newsgroup and in email.
PLEASE killfile this well known Jerry Howe aka
The Puppy Wizard who is using alot of alias in
here. He is a pathological liar, pervert and
bastard net kook.
He has been spamming random newsgroups trying to sell a
scam device and his moronic Wits' End Dog Training Method.
He's a sick individual and a convicted felon. Please complain
to abuse @rr.com and then killfile him.
All he does is slander and defame people in here
and never listens when told to stop. He knows
nothing about dog training or canine behavior.
He just makes this up, his nose gets longer and
longer like Pinocchio due to lying for years and
he has been abusively trolling this newsgroup
and others for years.
He keeps putting " XXX " in each word, which means
that he is so perverted and he is mentally ill and off his
medication and it is better that all of you keep him in
your killfiles for the time being.
Please avoid replying to messages from all his aliases.
The aliases to killfile are:
<SNIP>
Show Dog Bark Wrote:
Date: Sat, Aug 19 2006 2:06 am
Blue is doing fantastic. Thanks to his wonderful
personality, genetics and Jerry's help. I speak with
Jerry a couple of times a week about his progress
and fine tuning his training. Blue sits, heels, is
totally toilet trained, comes, knows 'down', stay
and all kinds of things like 'lets go for a walk'.
He is pure joy and has made my heart glad and full
of puppy love. He loves walking in the forest trails
and swimming in the cool and refreshing lake. His
'daddy' takes him for his final walk every evening
at 7 P.M. Then it is off to bed. He sleeps till 7 A.M.
It is nice to be able to sleep all night without getting
up for a pee pee a few times with him. In the first few
weeks I had to take him out at night, but now he is
able to sleep all night. He is like a tranquilizer.
I keep asking Jerry if Blue is a genius,
as he is so clever and obedient.
He tells me this is the nature of a dog that
has not been abused.
Blue is super good looking and so smart.
He learned to sit weeks ago. When he needs to go
outside to relieve himself, he lets me know by
going to the door and woofing. One thing that I
have noticed using Jerry's methods is that Blue
is very calm.
Most dogs are hyper and chew furniture and have
bad habits. Blue only plays with his toys. He knows
the difference between his toys and furniture and
does not nip.
I was surprised that he does not want to go on the
furniture. He likes to play on the floor and outside.
We sit outside together and he sits by where I am
reading. He may chew a toy or just hang out in the
shade. The whole town loves him and people are
impressed with his manners.
Show Dog Bark
--------------------
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
Here again is the pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin
anonymHOWES coward, not so handsome, not so
gentle, not so manly, not so happy jackass, not even
morrison aka dogman a.k.a. BIG DADDY, a.k.a.
tommy sorenson:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use a little
"knee action," that is, as the dog goes charging by
you, just give the dog a little bop with your knee
and shin.
Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
-----------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
Here's pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin
anonymHOWES coward, not so handsome,
not so gentle, not so manly, not so happy
jackass, not even morrison aka dogman a.k.a.
BIG DADDY, a.k.a. tommy sorenson:
"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.
A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."
=====================
"Swatting a dog on the nose is
always the wrong thing to do."
---------------
From: qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman)
Date: 1997/01/24
Subject: Re: Over-Excited Lab
On a cold day in Hell, Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:53:10
Teaching a puppy to stop biting and nipping people is
probably the very easiest thing you will ever do as a dog
trainer. Don't make such a big deal out of it.
It's E-A-S-Y, but it won't be done in just one or
two lessons. You must be C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T.
And P-A-T-I-E-N-T.
Whenever your puppy bites or nips you (or anyone else
in your family), do any one of the following:
1.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly tap your puppy on its nose with your index
finger.
2.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly grasp your puppy's lower jaw with your
right hand (if you are right handed), your right thumb stuck
down and under her tongue, your other fingers wrapped
under her jaw, and gently but firmly shake her jaw back
and forth a couple of times.
3.) At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently place a couple of fingers into her mouth, trying to
touch the back of her tongue with them, initiating a gag
reflex.
Immediately after doing any one of the above,
stop playing with her for at least 15-20 minutes
and completely IGNORE her. Do not even make
eye contact!
I promise you, Phil, that if you will be consistent in
the application of the above, your puppy will soon stop
nipping and biting people. Just how soon this occurs
depends upon the puppy, how well you execute the
above, and how C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T you are.
And no one should be allowed to play with the puppy
who is not capable of doing any of the above. Not
until she has first learned not to nip and bite people.
"At the very FIRST nip, tap your puppy on his nose with
your index finger, sharply, but not very hard, your face in
his face, and say "NO BITE!" in a firm but not loud voice."
"With your index finger, tap the puppy on her nose firmly,
but not harshly, then, at the very same time, and nose to
nose with her, tell your puppy in a firm but not loud voice,
"NO BITE!"
"At the same time you say "NO BITE!" in a firm voice,
gently but firmly tap your puppy on its nose with your
index finger."
BUT NEVER HIT YOUR DOG~!
Swatting a dog on the nose is always
the wrong thing to do.
IMO, the *fastest* way to curb a mouthy puppy's
desire to bite hands (especially if other methods
have failed, because you don't want this habit to
become reinforced by too much success), etc., is
to take advantage of the pup's gag reflex:
Slowly reach over and around the pup's shoulder
(while you're sitting on the floor), coming up to
the pup's mouth from underneath it with your
right hand (that way he can't see your finger or
your hand), and stick your index finger into the
pup's mouth, at the very rear, then down the
pup's throat, and gently place some downward
pressure on the back of the tongue, until he starts
to gag. Use your left arm to hold him close to you,
while you're doing this.
Trust me, it's easier to demonstrate this technique
than to explain it, but it's fail-proof.
He'll quickly put 2 and 2 together. Biting hands = gag.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
-------------------
SEE?
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."
"Housebreaking Problems:
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"
Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.
When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.
It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.
When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling.
To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.
The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.
For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.
The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.
An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.
It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.
---------------------
LIKE THIS:
tommy wrote:
From: dog...@i1.net (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Re: Koehler's Usefulness--A Concluding Assessment
This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has TOTALLY refused
to engage me in debate, preferring mudslinging, hyperbole, distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely out of context,
instead.
What lying hypocrites these hand-wringers are!
The most consistent argument among Koehler's defenders is based
on a questionable assumption that such "drastic" measures are
effective in "extreme" cases where other methods fail.
------------------------
Here's tommy TRAININ dogs again:
Howell Book House," 1996 William Koehler
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING,
YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain
you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were
against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet
them, so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in
his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more
emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one
that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from
a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless you
supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he
thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at
the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs
with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As
was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not
lessen the dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more
discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because
you're gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical
for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater
to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed
the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little
ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort
doesn't turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a
stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will
also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog
drags it around when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a
man's leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular
dog a good tanning.
Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember,
you're dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and
neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but
where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If
you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful
not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as
sharp as yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so
you can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally
impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of
"out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you've
conveniently placed, and descend on him. He'll have no chance to
dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are
raised off the floor or, if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him
up with a hitch on something. While he's held in close, lay the
strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on
a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After
fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end
up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've
always felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they
"cry out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your
dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range
bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat
the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a
full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he
gets away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble
on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just
a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you
have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe
his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be
watching and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the
family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a
block or two from your house so you can come back and park within
earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you've
returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool
the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving
off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has
reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when
you're not around, so give the above method an honest try before
you presume your dog requires a more severe correction.
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962).
New York: Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more
than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic
actions could cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and
fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth
have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground. As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
the dog is suspended in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover his footing while he still had
the strength to renew the attack would be cruelty. The only justifiable
course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor
inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to
the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps,
vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog
lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it
alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types
of protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your
efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these extreme problems. Nearly
always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by
avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds
of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under
correction.
When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was
incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists,
breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins
and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of
the greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be
demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and
certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in
resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that
situation. (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much
easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master."
------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
An THEN tommy GETS SENSITIVE like HOWE some
folks get when they're talkin politics an religion.
LIKE THIS:
From: Dogman <dog...@i1.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:13:41 -0500
Subject: Re: dogman
spamh8r <spam...@nospam.com> wrote:
> you mean the one at 1073 Highway in Defiance, Missouri?
> You can call 636-828-5149. check it out at:
> http://DogTrainerDirectory.com/show.php3?Which=5674
Yeah, that's it, you sick little prick.
Blame it on a TOTALLY INNOCENT guy.
I am *not* Tom Sorensen.
I AM NOT TOM SORENSON!
Geeeeeeeeeeez.
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
------------
"Dogman" <dog...@i1.net> wrote in message
news:dr60ts4q1kk0r5h0a...@4ax.com...
And since I have repeatedly *denied* being either Tommy
Sorensen, Tommy Sorenson, Joe Finocchiaro, Joey
Finocchare, Joe Finocchiro, and a host of other people that
*you* have accused me of being, just who the hell do you
suppose would end up getting sued, you stupid little dweeb?
Me? Or you?
> Because I've discreditied YOU.
Where exactly did you do that, little man?
Where????????
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Maybe inside that demented little brain of yours, but nowhere else.
And until you're prepared to walk the walk and not just talk
the talk, "everyone" here will know you for what you really are.
A two-bit P-H-O-N-Y.
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
HOWE COME tommy won't tell us his kennel name is sorensen's
Retrievers and SHOCK COLLAR SALES and his address and
phone #'s?:
From: A Real American <u...@usa.com>
Date: 2000/10/11
Subject: Re: Walking with Prong Collar
In case anyone was wondering who the anonymous poster
known as Dogman actually is, it is
Tom Sorenson of
Sorenson Kennels
(314) 828-5149
1073 Hwy DD
Defiance, MO
63341-1707
If you are offended by the language and the nastiness, please drop
him and his wife Kay a note or give them a call. You may also use
the ab...@i1.net route.
I will be reposting this information whenever I feel like it.
Uncle Sam
--------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
HOWE COME would a EXXXPERT such as tommy set their
INFORMATIVE posts to EXXXPIRE in six days like matty
a.k.a. Rocky, diddler, elegy, meat terri a.k.a. dogsnuts, professora
melanie chang, marquis de "READ KOEHLER FOR CONTENT"
shaw and not so handsome not so gentle jackass, not even jack
morrison a.k.a. joe finnochiarrio a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN??
Ooops~! That last anonymHOWES coward is tommy.
Is tommy EMBARRASSED by his own words, the lyin animal
murderin punk thug coward mental case fraud an SCAM ARTIST?
matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.
What an idiotic response!
Whoops.
----------------
Here's a couple of tommy sorenson's aka not so handsome,
not so gentle, jackass, not even morrison a.k.a. DOGMAN,
the anonymHOWES COWARD's SUCCESSFUL "STUDENTS":
"Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And
Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD.
From: Laura Arlov (l...@wordfixers.no)
Subject: Re: Chewie bit my husband !
Date: 1999/01/20
Quote laura:
Well, we're doing as you say Dogman,
and I'll keep you all posted.
Laura in Oslo
You're quite the dog enthusiast, eh laura?
Quote laura:
The listener,
You didn't WANT to listen to The Puppy Wizard when
HE told you you couldn't PUNISH and INTIMIDATE
your dog or you'd make IT aggressive.
Quote laura:
the observer.
NHOWE you got a DEAD DOG HOWETA it.
Quote laura:
We do work were you sometimes have to observe people
Like laura, MURDERING her dog...
Quote laura:
and take notes.
INDEEDY!
Quote laura:
B. has amazing powers of observation and concentration.
RIGHT...
Quote laura:
Laura and Angel in Oslo
steve walker's DEAD DOG Sampson was a shelter / rescue
Golden. He begain TURNING on his daughter so he PUNISHED
IT. That seemed to have CURED Sampson's FEAR of steve's
daughter but TAUGHT IT to attack OTHER daddy's daughters,
and GOT HIM DEAD, despite all the EXXXPERTEASE of HOWER
fellHOWE dog lovers here and the BIG SHOT, john rogerson,
in the UK <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAA~!~!~!
AND LIKE THIS:
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: Steve Walker <skwal...@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:54:57 +0100
Subject: Sad news (Samson)
Hello everyone, hope you remember me. I've been quiet
here for ages, firstly because of a computer breakdown
that took ages to remedy, and then it's been difficult
to find the heart to write to the group again.
You see, on Sep 21, after much heart-searching, I took
Samson back to the RSPCA to be put to sleep. He was a
brilliant dog with his family, but was becoming more &
more fear reactive with people, especially small children,
and (apparently randomly) with other dogs, to the point
where we had to muzzle him when he went out and if we
had visitors (which is often), because we just couldn't
trust people to remember to leave him alone, so his
quality of life had become not much.
We put him through a rehab programme from John Rogerson's
practice - I gather he's pretty well-known, so some of
you might have heard of him - which did everything they
said it would (reliable recall, focused his attention much
more on us, etc - except reduce his tendency to react
suddenly and bite.
The vet had checked him and found nothing, but I'd still
have suspected a brain tumour or something if it hadn't
been for the fact that he was totally reliable with the kids
and us.
I called the RSPCA to let them know that the rehab programme
wasn't working, and they said that if we gave him back, they'd
assess him but he'd almost certainly be put down.
I couldn't let him be alone among strangers for his last
moments, so I asked if they'd let me take him immediately
and stay with him while it was done, and they agreed.
It was a sunny day, and he was happy enough on the drive to
the centre, but I could barely hold myself together. He was
nervous of going into the surgery and I had to coax him in,
and I felt like an utter traitor.
I stroked him as they prepared him, crying and telling him
how sorry I was, and nearly panicked and ran out with him
when they brought out the needle.
But I knew if I did it would only be delaying the inevitable,
and I'd be risking someone, probably a child, being injured,
which I couldn't do. So I went through with it, and in a few
seconds it was over and I'd killed my dog, who trusted me
to look after him.
I told a mailing list I'm on straight away, and they've been
fantastically kind. I was in a daze for days afterwards, and
still have the occasional flashback to that day, but I'm coping
a lot better now, and would love to give a home to another dog,
but my wife doesn't feel ready yet.
Soon, though, I hope. I miss Samson terribly, but while I
feel a lot of guilt for the decision I made, I know there
wasn't another way out, and at least I could make sure I was
with him at the end.
I owed him that.
I know there are some here who will gloat over this email,
but all I can say is that their opinion, their existence,
is irrelevant to me. For the rest of you, the good, decent
majority who frequent this group, I didn't want to just
disappear, and not tell you what had happened, after you
gave me so much support and help from the outset.
Samson was my first dog, and the help I got here made
life much better for him and us while we were together.
If the glad day comes when we do adopt another dog,
I'll let you know. I hope it's soon.
God bless,
--
Steve Walker
-------------
Seems steevie is in DEEP DENIAL~!
From: Steve Walker <skwal...@btinternet.com>
Date: 2000/10/09
Subject: Re: Sad news (Samson) = I'm GLAD You Killed Samson,
He Was A BAD GENETIC Choice. You Did The Right Thing. Turn
And Don't Look Back.
In article FJ6E5.62103$O95.4439...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com,
Jerry Howe <jh...@cfl.rr.com> writes
> Nor can I. Nor can Marilyn. She does the same kind of
> work I do. We KNEW this was going to happen, based
> on steve's original posts here...
Jerry, you're still in my killfile, but somehow this one
made it through, so I'll respond before I ignore you again.
You obviously have a very short memory. Samson was not
trained using aggressive, confrontational or harsh methods.
John Rogerson's rehab programme was based entirely on using
kind methods to get Samson's attention even more fixed on us
(which wouldn't have worked if they were not kind), with the
intention that Samson wouldn't even be interested in other
dogs and people, until we had such good control that we
could start to introduce others under controlled circumstances
that would persuade Samson it was great to have them around.
It worked, in so far as Samson became even more attached
to us, had a perfect recall etc. Unfortunately, this didn't
stop the fact that he might suddenly react aggressively to
even the proximity of a stranger or strange dog.
No aggressive methods were used in this programme. Not one.
But the problem was too deep-rooted, too instinctive, and
Samson just couldn't help himself.
He'd shake if a small child even entered the room, and if
they approached him he'd try to bite them. Not as a reaction
to aggression, but just because he had some deep-rooted fear
issue going back to before we ever had him.
We could not risk that he would injure someone, especially
a child, so we made the decision we did - not lightly, but
with tears.
You, however, are an idiot. Don't bother replying, because
even if one of your posts makes it past the killfile again,
you'll just be binned with the rest of the garbage.
Goodbye.
--
Steve Walker
-----------------
Naaaaah??
QUOTE FROM lyingdogDUMMY:
> "The only one I see acting like a fool is you, Crim,
> for buying into anything Howe ever has to say, about
> anything, and for not listening to me when it comes
> to dogs."
Ever hear the expression "sit rolls down hill?"
> but was becoming more & more fear reactive
> with people, especially small children,
That's it in a nutshell. You taught him through your own
actions, HOWE to deal with other, less capable beings.
Dogs copy our actions and attitudes. They mirror us. They
emulate us. And when we respond to their natural, innate,
instinctive, reflexive behaviors, with punishment, the dog
loses confidence in our judgement and leadership ability.
Seems I recall you mentioning the children were learning
to CORRECT Samson on lead, so THEY could enjoy walking
with him. Didn't you mention they were learning some alpha
dominance techniques as well?
Can't let that big lug pull down the children now, can we?
So you teach the children to violate the dog's trust with
a few good corrections. And YOU back up the children with
the HAMMERS OF HELL...
And it worked. Didn't it, just as I told you so.
Just as I told Robert Crim.
But you guys were too smart to be taken in by this con man.
You listened to our fear, force, and alpha dominance control
freaks, who learned ALL that they know about dog behavior from
the MADMAN, MONSTER, wm koehler.
So, it seems the only problem is that you didn't read
the back of the book. That's what our Gang Of Thugs fails
to mention, until it's too late.
That's the part that says when the dog is finally provoked
to act out on his trainer or other weaker family members,
that you've got to HANG the dog till his eyes roll back in
ITS head, ITS tongue turns thick and blue and falls out the
side of ITS mouth, and when you put IT back on the ground,
IT should stagger to IT'S feet, and PUKE.
That's the cure for this behavior problem, you just never asked.
I expect you'll enjoy your next dog as much as you enjoyed Samson.
Tell him HOWEDY for me, eh good buddy? Eh? Huh? Huh? Eh??? Eh???
Yours for responsible dog handling and training,
Jerry "Don't Confront The Dog," Howe.
From: Dogman <dog...@i1.net>
Date: 2000/10/08
Subject: Re: Sad news (Samson) = ninnyboy
"JohnK" <jo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> It's too late. I already know what a disgusting, vile
> human being you are. You are to be ignored now.
Come on, John.
It didn't really take that Sampson post for you to know
that Howe is a disgusting, vile human being, did it?
I hope not.
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS:
Subject: Re: RIP Teena 1999 - 2004
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <me10...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in
message news:p8sn1093e89a5202r...@4ax.com...
> On 31 Jan 2004 17:48:39 GMT, KWBrown arfenarfSPAMBL...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> Well.
> She tried to take a bite out of our trainer, and that was that.
> Teena the ESS made her last trip to the vet and, I hope,
> sleeps more peacefully than she has in years.
I'm very sorry to hear that, Kate.
But going by the information you posted here about her,
you had no choice.
Godspeed, Teena.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Hello Dogdirtforbirdbrains,
You ain't getting away with that any more. You are not going to get
away with blaming genetics for the behavior problems created
through abusive training methods recommended by thugs like you
and Koehler, that cause dogs to turn on their owners and families,
and die as a result!
People are getting smart around here, and fast! You becoming well
recognized for what you are. I don't need to elaborate on that
anymore. Everybody knows.
> What a piece of shit you are, Crim. Blaming me, or blaming
> Koehler, for poor Fritz's problem, is like blaming a doctor who
> couldn't save your child's life, and that's unconscionable.
You told Crim that Koehler was fantastic. He bought it hook, line,
and sinker, and it sank him. You must know the risk, just as I do.
I've seen this sort of thing happen repeatedly for over thirty years.
It will stop. I'm not going to allow you people to get away with it
anymore.
I will dog you, Koehler, and all of your kind right to the gates of
Hell, and I'll train Appallion to keep you there forever. Guaranteed.
The gates of Hell are guarded by a Wits' End trained dog.
> Your dog was almost certainly predestined by his *genes* to end
> up like he did, particularly since he had *you* as his thoroughly
> confused, ignorant and inconsistent doofus owner.
No, it was the Koehler method that killed Fritz. It was your advice
that killed Fritz. It was me, not being here sooner, that killed Fritz.
Crim was a victim, just like Fritz. Crim did everything by the book,
exactly as per the instructions. He followed your advice. He lost,
big time. I could have predicted the outcome, the percentage of this
kind of "collateral damage" is unacceptably high.
Those things, I am certain of. Those things, I am determined to stop.
> The only one I see acting like a fool is you, Crim, for buying into
> anything Howe ever has to say, about anything,
> and for not listening to me when it comes to dogs.
You are mad at me, because I forced Crim to examine exactly what
happened to Fritz, and he came to the correct conclusion. If I
hadn't, he'd be doing the same things he'd done before, but harder,
and faster, and maybe lost his next dog, faster and harder.
You now blame the genes, you now blame Crim for mishandling.
You said it was a good thing he destroyed his untrustworthy dog.
That is the kind of response you have given many people over the
years, isn't it? I know that for certain, I've been fighting you
Thugs all my life. It's almost over now, people are getting wise to
you, and Koehler, and Fraud Die, and the rest of the "in crowd" here.
Before, it was just me fighting for proper handling and training
methods. You've all ganged up on me, trying everything possible
to discredit and intimidate me. That didn't work. Not one of you
cretins have successfully discredited any of my methods. Keep trying,
please.
Now, there are several competent professional dog trainers, all with
somewhat different but nonetheless acceptable, non force, methods.
For the first time in my career, I've learned something from another
dog trainer. We've got a good thing going now, and you and our
Gang Of Thugs have to change, or go off into obscurity, in shame
and contempt.
You can't make up for the harm you've done, but you were an
innocent victim just like Crim, and you can be forgiven, and
rehabilitated, and you don't have to continue doing any more harm.
The choice is up to you. It's time to do or die.
> Dogman aka "Big Daddy"
> dog...@i1.net
===================
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
AND LIKE THIS:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood
enough of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher
and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
============
SEE?
tommy sez:
> Sucker.
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAA~!~!~!
SEE?
unsurrea...@yahoo.com
who won't stop peeing on the floor.
unsurrea...@yahoo.com
> Listen to Howe - he's an expert in this area since he's also a bitch
> who won't stop peeing on the floor.
And you should see him piss all over himself when asked to prove his
bully behavior in person...wow...I wouldn't want to sit in his chair!
Not to mention he hasn't had his annual bath this year. Man - what a
stench! And don't get me started on the bug hive in that ridiculously
stupid beard! And that hat and clothing gives new meaning to "Flea
Market." Unfortunately, he's BRINGING fleas there...
Ted Mittelstaedt
"montana wildhack" <mon...@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
> On 2008-12-02 00:53:26 -0500, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com>
said:
>
> > How would I tell spay incontinence?
>
> She's really young for that sort of thing, but incontinence is usually
> seen as "leaking".
>
It's not that, then.
> Thank you so much for coming back and having a dialogue.
>
> One poster had recommended tethering her to you as one might do when
> doing initial housetraining to ensure that you get her outside if she
> starts sniffing. This would also eliminate counter-surfing when you
> aren't looking.
>
> Among other things, if she is favoring the carpet, she is probably
> still smelling urine: hers or another dog's. You can get a small black
> light at pet stores to check for urine. That's where the enzyme
> cleaners are your friend.
>
That's a great idea.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> In article <abue06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
> > The one time I tried putting her on a leash inside, within 5 minutes she
had
> > chewed through it. (obviously I wasn't watching her) After that I
managed
> > to
> > find an old metal chain leash
> > at a secondhand store. (I don't understand why all the leashes you see
in
> > the stores today are fabric straps, but what do I know)
>
> Leashes of fabric or leather are much preferred for walking and
> training. Chain leashes weigh on a dog's collar and teaching walking on
> a loose leash makes less sense with that pressure.
>
Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
fabric,
so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.
The weight difference of the 5 foot steel chain and the 6 foot fabric leash
is less than a pound. And if the dog is trained to heel, the majority of
the
chain weight is on the owner holding the chain, since they are holding the
chain -above- the dog. The 6 inches or so that may dangle down is
not significant in weight.
I've seen this same kind of argument with people arguing over whether
a steel or aluminum bicycle seat post is "better" The difference between
the posts in weight is less than a pound, but the aluminum ones break
and bend, and are 10 times more expensive. But, you will never convince
someone who has spent the money on a "racing" aluminum seatpost
that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
> > If we had the time to constantly keep a close eye on her when we are in
> > the house we wouldn't have this problem. But there's only so many hours
> > in the day - I get home around 6pm and go to bed at 10pm - to do that
> > would require me watching her constantly for 4 hours in the evening, and
> > it's just out of the question. We have to do mundane things like eat,
wash
> > dishes, put kids to bed, pay bills, etc. not to mention walking the dog
in
> > the evenings.
>
> Join the club. My dogs are pretty much WITH me when I'm doing those
> things. Warming my feet, hanging out nearby.
>
If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
keeping a
close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
close
attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying close
attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
mind that the dog is hanging around.
I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.
> >
> > In general in the evening we don't have this problem. We have to
> > crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
> > table otherwise,
>
> That is a KID training issue. Teach BOTH of them table manners!
>
I know there are some people who have kids who act like the kids
on the Brady Bunch, but I've never met any parents who had those
kind of kids. All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.
And if you actually don't have kids at all, well then all I can say
is I know there's no possible way to convince non-parents that
children cannot be trained like dogs so I won't even try.
> > We also do not feed her after 5pm and we stop putting food in her bowl
> > around 3pm, she generally finishes it off before 5.
>
> Free feeding is a really bad idea for a dog with elimination problems
> (and IMO, not a good idea for most dogs). Start by scheduling her
> feedings and giving her a limited time to eat.
>
> > Most of the peeing seems to happen in the morning or afternoon, when
> > my wife is distracted with taking care of the kids. That is one of the
> > problems
> > as well.
>
> There are several options depending on the age of your children, their
> needs that need attending, and the layout of your home. Keeping the dog
> WITH the group, in some way, is the most helpful. That can be tethered
> to an object or mom, gated in the same room (or doors shut to keep her
> in the same room) etc.
>
Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
through.
A steel tether would scar up the furniture, we just don't have that much
room. The only realistic option for our setup is for her to be free running
inside the house and to learn to NOT pee or poop in the house.
> You also mentioned a 2 hour window of her urinating and when she has
> peed on the floor. Typically, MOST dogs (and especially young ones)
> here have gone out at 6, peed, then fed (expected to eat all of the
> food) then out again for more pee and poop, by 6:15. With a puppy or
> not fully trained dog, I would have them out again at 7:15.
Interesting. Well, last night I walked her at 10pm, then crated her, then
this morning I took her out at 6, she pooped
twice and peed twice. Then I fed her, then took her out again at 8. She
didn't mess on the floor during that time so maybe she is catching on,
I hope so. But she didn't eat much of the food. Then she was crated
when both my wife and I left.
I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
soon after eating.
> Not too
> hard if you have a fenced yard,
We don't, and it wouldn't be possible anyway due to the layout of the
yard, detached garage and driveway.
> but quick no matter what. Then again
> before people leave for the day. How long is she crated during the day?
Generally no longer than 4 hours at a stretch during the day. If my wife is
going to be gone in the morning then she is always back by noon since
we have 1 kid that has to be picked up from school around then,
at that time she walks and feed the dog. After that, the crating is
irregular, it depends on whether my wife goes out or not.
> Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
> natural rhythm of the bladder.
>
Well, that's true for people too - but it's unavoidable in modern society.
So, can a dog be trained to use the toilet? I know that people have
trained cats to do so.
Ted
> --
> Janet Boss
> www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Spot" <sp...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:MYeZk.2357$QX3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
What product do you recommend?
Ted
Melinda Shore
Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
>through.
No, no, no. You tether the dog to yourself. It's a way to
guarantee constant supervision even when your attention
wanders.
I think the point is that there are millions of
house-trained dogs in the US. If what you're doing isn't
working, do something else. Instead of reflexively thinking
"I can't do that" when someone offers a suggestion, try to
figure out how you could do that if you tried. Don't expect
not to change anything and still have a different outcome.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Janet Boss
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
> that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
> myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
> fabric,
> so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
> Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
> up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.
Paranoid?
> The weight difference of the 5 foot steel chain and the 6 foot fabric leash
> is less than a pound. And if the dog is trained to heel, the majority of
> the
> chain weight is on the owner holding the chain, since they are holding the
> chain -above- the dog. The 6 inches or so that may dangle down is
> not significant in weight.
It's more than that. It is how a leash can be held in the hands of the
handler, for maximum control for dogs who may need that, for safety
reasons, etc. I have a bunch of different leashes. I own a chain one.
It is for demo purposes of one of the leashes I won't allow in class.
Not significant in weight is not as simple as you may think.
> If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
> keeping a
> close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
> close
> attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying close
> attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
> mind that the dog is hanging around.
You'd be wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and am a pretty damn
observant person. I've had a lot of puppies live with me (one at a
time). Close supervision is possible when doing other things.
Multitasking is something not everyone does well though.
>
> I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
> kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.
Oh well! It does. I don't have puppy problems!
> All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
Too bad. Don't you enforce rules?
>
> Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
> that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.
I've had more meals with more SMALL (and large) children than you can
imagine. All of them were quite aware that feeding the dog was
unacceptable.
>
> Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
> through.
> A steel tether would scar up the furniture, we just don't have that much
> room. The only realistic option for our setup is for her to be free running
> inside the house and to learn to NOT pee or poop in the house.
No, it isn't. I assume you have rooms? You have waists? Tether a dog
TO you. Use gates. Use a doorknob. Use chew deterrent on fabric,
plastic coated steel cable of appropriate length. Oh yeah - stop making
excuses.
> Interesting. Well, last night I walked her at 10pm, then crated her, then
> this morning I took her out at 6, she pooped
> twice and peed twice. Then I fed her, then took her out again at 8. She
> didn't mess on the floor during that time so maybe she is catching on,
> I hope so. But she didn't eat much of the food. Then she was crated
> when both my wife and I left.
And the food?
> I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
> soon after eating.
Depends on the general feeding pattern, but yes.
> Generally no longer than 4 hours at a stretch during the day. If my wife is
> going to be gone in the morning then she is always back by noon since
> we have 1 kid that has to be picked up from school around then,
> at that time she walks and feed the dog. After that, the crating is
> irregular, it depends on whether my wife goes out or not.
Sounds pretty good.
>
> > Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
> > natural rhythm of the bladder.
> >
>
> Well, that's true for people too - but it's unavoidable in modern society.
How often are you deprived of the ability to eliminate for 8-12 hours?
When awake, not overnight when sleeping? Think about dogs who have that
every day. Adult dogs can often handle it just fine. Young dogs rarely
can, and other conditions come into play as well.
> So, can a dog be trained to use the toilet? I know that people have
> trained cats to do so.
No. When you get a dog, you assume responsibility for a reasonable
schedule for them.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Nessa
> "Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>
> news:janet-F4DA42....@news.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> Join the club. My dogs are pretty much WITH me when I'm doing
those
> > things. Warming my feet, hanging out nearby.
>
> If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
> keeping a
> close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
> close
> attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying close
> attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of your
> mind that the dog is hanging around.
>
> I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as the
> kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.
>
is this your first dog?
My dogs are in the same room where I am (at least my 80 pound puppy
is)
if i'm in the kitchen cooking I have one dog in each doorway. on their
rugs watching me....
if I only have the puppy I call for hannah and she's in the next room
and comes running... (hannah at nearly 7 is middle aged, housebroken
and well behaved and as such is allowed the luxury of NOT watching
mommy cook dinner)
>
>
> > > In general in the evening we don't have this problem. We have to
> > > crate her during dinner because the kids will feed her scraps under the
> > > table otherwise,
>
> > That is a KID training issue. Teach BOTH of them table manners!
>
> I know there are some people who have kids who act like the kids
> on the Brady Bunch, but I've never met any parents who had those
> kind of kids. All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
>
> Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
> that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.
>
> And if you actually don't have kids at all, well then all I can say
> is I know there's no possible way to convince non-parents that
> children cannot be trained like dogs so I won't even try.
three kids here ages 24 22 and 16 so don't try to tell me I've not
raised my kids.
one is on the autistic spectrum (the 24 year old)
one is ADHD (the 22 year old who BTW GRADUATES from DREXEL this year)
one is learning disabled (my 16 yr old girl child stepdaughter who
came as the bonus child with the current husband)
two no longer live at home but they learned quickly NO means NO
do you let your children play with matches? just because they want
to?
do you let them run in the street because it's fun?
why do you let them feed the dog at the table?
IF you can't control your children what makes you think you can
control your puppy?
> I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
> soon after eating.
yep eating is what makes them have to go... or exercise.
>
> > Not too
> > hard if you have a fenced yard,
>
> We don't, and it wouldn't be possible anyway due to the layout of the
> yard, detached garage and driveway.
I had no fenced yard from 2002 (when I first got dogs after a long dog
break) until 2008 when i finally had a fence put in a tiny yard.
I housebroke two dogs without a fenced yard
without a spouse
and with physical limitations on myself.
***posted via google****
Robin Nuttall
> Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
> that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
> myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
> fabric,
> so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
> Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
> up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.
Um, there are a lot of reasons not to use a chain leash. Cost has
nothing to do with it. Chain leashes are dangerous for people. They're
much harder to grip, and if a chain leash gets wrapped around a finger
when a dog goes flying off after something there's a log more chance the
owner will lose said finger. They're also harder to handle in general.
There's a reason why chain leashes are banned at our training facility,
and weight is one of the least of them.
A good leather leash is always the way to go. I do use nylon on my toy
dog, but the big dogs all get quality leather. I use Master's Pride,
http://www.masterspride.com. He custom makes my leather leads and
collars. Worth every penny. My first purchase from him was made in 2000,
that collar still looks like new and is butter soft and beautiful.
Melinda Shore
I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
tough.
Janet Boss
sh...@panix.com (Melinda Shore) wrote:
>
> I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
> anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
> colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
> rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
> tough.
Have you tried hemp?
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Melinda Shore
Janet Boss <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>Have you tried hemp?
I had a hemp collar on Emmett for a few years and I was
surprised by how well it held up, although it looked pretty
shabby long before it was really worn. But for leashes I'm
sufficiently happy with just plain old nylon that I don't
see a reason to switch.
Judy
> Have you tried hemp?
Hey - there's GOT to be a store in Ithaca that sells hemp stuff.
(I think I saw their storefront the other night on the news when they were
talking about the ways they were encouraging people to Christmas shop in
downtown Ithaca.)
I haven't tried hemp. I do love a great leather leash. Most of ours are
nylon. I buy them cheaply at Pet Edge because Sassy loves them more than
any chew toy. Mostly she chews on Spenser's when she gets bored with just
walking normally.
We also use braided leashes - they work great for tugging practice.
And I admit to using flexis. But only when the dogs are on long walks in
places where we aren't going to meet a lot of people, other dogs or cars.
But I haven't had a chain leash in years and years.
Judy
Melinda Shore
Judy <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote:
>Hey - there's GOT to be a store in Ithaca that sells hemp stuff.
I guess there's a place on the Commons, but Ithaca Grain
also sells hemp doggie accessories.
Janet Boss
>
> I haven't tried hemp. I do love a great leather leash. Most of ours are
> nylon. I buy them cheaply at Pet Edge because Sassy loves them more than
> any chew toy. Mostly she chews on Spenser's when she gets bored with just
> walking normally.
I like narrow leather leashes, I have some leather slip leads which get
regular use. They're 1/4". The hemp ones I have are attractive
(patterned ribbon adornment) and comfortable to use, but I don't like
the catch.
> And I admit to using flexis. But only when the dogs are on long walks in
> places where we aren't going to meet a lot of people, other dogs or cars.
I'm using one now, even though for the most part, I'm anti-flexi. It's
handy to give Marcie the "privacy" she wants while still keeping her
on-leash and with restricted activity, post-spay.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Robin Nuttall
> In article <OTXZk.409892$TT4.377664@attbi_s22>,
> Robin Nuttall <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>>A good leather leash is always the way to go.
>
>
> I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
> anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
> colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
> rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
> tough.
I have been badly burned by nylon one too many times. I don't care for
blistered weals on my hands so I do leather.
Robin Nuttall
>
> And I admit to using flexis. But only when the dogs are on long walks
> in places where we aren't going to meet a lot of people, other dogs or
> cars.
I use them at shows for exercising. But I use them smartly. Dog on
short/locked until we have enough space to let dog out to a fuller
length. Never used in crowded areas (except walking out through the show
grounds to walking area, see above).
>
> But I haven't had a chain leash in years and years.
Chain leashes are just flat dangerous and should be pulled from the market.
Nessa
wrote:
I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
Best Wishes,
Nessa
----
Dog Mom to:
Hannah age 6.5 Pitador rescued age 9 weeks
Harley small shaggy cow that I love and adore (landseer Newf rescued 10/08)
(Angel) Bagel went to Rainbow Bridge 9/18/08 my Newfandstuff age 8.5
Nessa
Nature's Miracle
or
Simple Solution
you can buy it by the gallon and soak the area. make sure you get the
pads and floor underneath saturated too.
Janet Boss
Nessa <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
>
> to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
Nah - there's always the handle to chew. Plastic-coated steel cable is
much better.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Nessa
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>In article <hpqgj41fcp4fpqik7...@4ax.com>,
> Nessa <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
>>
>> to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
>
>Nah - there's always the handle to chew. Plastic-coated steel cable is
>much better.
oh I never thought of that.
my cousin's dog many many years ago was hooked to her bed every night
with a chain leash... (back then it was all we had really)
and they would yell for her 'Nicky wanna go a hookin????"
that dog came running every night...
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Robin Nuttall" <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:OTXZk.409892$TT4.377664@attbi_s22...
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
>> that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one out by
>> myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot than
>> fabric,
>> so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
>> Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking it
>> up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.
>
> Um, there are a lot of reasons not to use a chain leash. Cost has nothing
> to do with it. Chain leashes are dangerous for people. They're much harder
> to grip, and if a chain leash gets wrapped around a finger when a dog goes
> flying off after something there's a log more chance the owner will lose
> said finger. They're also harder to handle in general. There's a reason
> why chain leashes are banned at our training facility, and weight is one
> of the least of them.
>
So in other words they are banned because the PEOPLE can't handle
them, not the dogs. I see now, it's still a cost savings issue, though,
it's
just that they want to save on liability costs as they are worried about
being
sued by numbnuts who lost a finger. I assume the same lawyers who sued
because coffee was too hot were the ones that took that case?
Well, as one of my transportation devices happens to be a motorcycle, and
I am still alive, (riding for 15 years now) I have learned how to deal with
tools that can take much more than a finger off, if mishandled.
Unfortunately the tendency to dumb-down products for the general unwashed
masses who you couldn't trust with a burnt out match is very prevalent these
days in US society. It's a sad commentary.
The info on the plastic-sheathed steel cable leashes is useful, though.
> A good leather leash is always the way to go. I do use nylon on my toy
> dog, but the big dogs all get quality leather. I use Master's Pride,
> http://www.masterspride.com. He custom makes my leather leads and collars.
> Worth every penny. My first purchase from him was made in 2000, that
> collar still looks like new and is butter soft and beautiful.
Collars are no problem - not easy for the dog to get at and chew. But
leather? That's not only easily chewed through, it's edible! So your dog
can thank you for the treat while chewing through the leash I guess! :-)
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> In article <tvol06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> If your dogs are hanging out nearby I think that's a lot different than
>> keeping a
>> close eye on them. A close eye means just that - your constantly paying
>> close
>> attention to what they are doing. It doesen't mean that your paying
>> close
>> attention to the stove when cooking dinner and just know in the back of
>> your
>> mind that the dog is hanging around.
>
> You'd be wrong. I have eyes in the back of my head and am a pretty damn
> observant person. I've had a lot of puppies live with me (one at a
> time). Close supervision is possible when doing other things.
> Multitasking is something not everyone does well though.
Sure, sure. I've heard that one before. Multitasking is something that
very
FEW people do "well". Fortunately, the "employee must multitask" fad
is rapidly fading in business, along with ISO certification, Sigma Six and
all those other business process fads. I shudder to imagine the next stupid
ones to come down the pike, though.
>>
>> I don't think your experience of your dogs hanging around qualifies as
>> the
>> kind of close attention that the other poster advised was needed.
>
> Oh well! It does. I don't have puppy problems!
>
I thought I mentioned before this isn't a puppy?
>> All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
>
> Too bad. Don't you enforce rules?
>
Typical cheap shot by the childless not even worth a response.
>>
>> Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
>> that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.
>
> I've had more meals with more SMALL (and large) children than you can
> imagine. All of them were quite aware that feeding the dog was
> unacceptable.
>
Most people's kids, including our
own, are perfect little angels when over at OTHER people's homes.
They save their rotten behavior for their parents. But I can see this
argument is pointless. Either you have never had kids yourself, in
which case you simply don't know what your talking about, or your
one of those few parents who had docile kids who grew up to be
lawyers or dentists or something and take out their rebellion they never
had with you on their unfortunate clients, or at their weekly
therapist meeting.
Even Sara Palin who claimed to raise children by the Bible, educated
on Abstinence Only sex ed, has a kid who screwed her boyfriend
before marriage, and got preggers. You see, even the Bible-thumpers
cannot really control their kids.
Parents who think they are affecting or controlling or teaching their
kids are deluding themselves. The only control you ever have as
a parent is general morals - about the best you can do is teach them
that being an axe-murderer or thieving cars or something is a bad thing -
beyond that, when it comes to the small stuff, they are either going to
lie like, well, dogs, to your face and just do their own thing behind your
back, or they are going to tell you to your face that they are going to do
their own thing, and then just go do their own thing no matter how much
you fight with them.
And in any case, it's not really the feeding - our dinner table is small
enough that we can grab if we see one of the kids doing it. It's even
the hint of getting fed that is the problem.
If a kid gets away even once with feeding the dog, the dog immediately
assumes they have a shot at getting fed again. Having a dog standing there
staring at a kid waiting for an illicit handout is obviously an irresistable
temptation to a child - it certainly was to ours. Thus, the simple and
effective solution was to remove the temptation from the children.
>>
>> Tethering inside isn't an option here. A fabric tether would be chewed
>> through.
>> A steel tether would scar up the furniture, we just don't have that much
>> room. The only realistic option for our setup is for her to be free
>> running
>> inside the house and to learn to NOT pee or poop in the house.
>
> No, it isn't. I assume you have rooms? You have waists? Tether a dog
> TO you. Use gates. Use a doorknob. Use chew deterrent on fabric,
> plastic coated steel cable of appropriate length. Oh yeah - stop making
> excuses.
>
It's easy to make pronouncements when you haven't seen the layout of
the home. This is a small city house, with children, toys, and furniture,
all of which
arrived long before the dog and none of which was procured with a dog
in mind. It's quite different than a childless home that's had dogs running
around in it for years, and been optimized for that environment.
Sure, we could totally rearrainge our home and lifestyle to make it possible
to tether a dog to whoever is in the home at the time. (my wife, mainly)
By the time we completed doing this, the dog would likely be trained and
the need for the tether would no longer exist. So what is the point here?
The goal isn't to convert our home to a dog-training facility. The goal is
to add another member to the family in the existing environment with
some minor modifications - such as things like teaching the kids that if
they let their toys lie around on the floor that they will become chew-toys,
and that the additional family member can't use the watercloset and must
be taken out periodically. Simple things like this.
>> Interesting. Well, last night I walked her at 10pm, then crated her,
>> then
>> this morning I took her out at 6, she pooped
>> twice and peed twice. Then I fed her, then took her out again at 8. She
>> didn't mess on the floor during that time so maybe she is catching on,
>> I hope so. But she didn't eat much of the food. Then she was crated
>> when both my wife and I left.
>
> And the food?
>
The food isn't in the crate so when she is crated she can't get at it. When
my wife came back she came out of the crate and ate the rest
of it, then was taken outside. (she wasn't given any more food after that)
She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was
begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
was instead watching TV.
Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us an
unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
Let's just say that it's rather an eye-opener to a 10 year old that wanting
a dog and having a dog are two very different things. Muh hah hah hah haa!!
>> I didn't realize that a dog could become "poop-ready" in 15 minutes that
>> soon after eating.
>
> Depends on the general feeding pattern, but yes.
>
>> Generally no longer than 4 hours at a stretch during the day. If my wife
>> is
>> going to be gone in the morning then she is always back by noon since
>> we have 1 kid that has to be picked up from school around then,
>> at that time she walks and feed the dog. After that, the crating is
>> irregular, it depends on whether my wife goes out or not.
>
> Sounds pretty good.
>>
>> > Sometimes, having to "hold it" for long periods can mess with the
>> > natural rhythm of the bladder.
>> >
>>
>> Well, that's true for people too - but it's unavoidable in modern
>> society.
>
> How often are you deprived of the ability to eliminate for 8-12 hours?
Well, I haven't flown a commercial airline recently... Heh.
> When awake, not overnight when sleeping? Think about dogs who have that
> every day.
If we both worked to the point at where we were not in the house for
8-12 hours, and for some reason we felt we had to have a dog, I would
have put in a dog run outside with a doghouse and got 2 dogs at minimum
that would be outside dogs. But I don't personally see the point of even
having dogs in that kind of a situation, in the city. Space is just too
much at
a premium. I can see it out in the boondocks, that's a no-brainer.
Fortunately as long as we have school-age kids in the house, even if we
do work full time there will be someone to let the dog out. By the time
our youngest leaves the home, the dog will be dead of old age so it
shouldn't
be a problem.
> Adult dogs can often handle it just fine. Young dogs rarely
> can, and other conditions come into play as well.
>
>> So, can a dog be trained to use the toilet? I know that people have
>> trained cats to do so.
>
> No. When you get a dog, you assume responsibility for a reasonable
> schedule for them.
>
That was a joke, actually. I do understand that we could have a lot worse
problems with this dog.
Ted
Nessa
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>news:janet-19CDE7....@news.individual.net...
>> In article <tvol06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>> Oh well! It does. I don't have puppy problems!
>>
>
>I thought I mentioned before this isn't a puppy?
FWIW I thought it was a puppy too.
doesn't matter if you have housebreaking problems you treat like a
brand new puppy.
my 11 month old puppy is new to us. he was treated like he was 8
weeks old when we first brought him home
we taught him steps
we taught him housebreaking
we crated
we tethered
I slept on the couch for FOUR WEEKS before he learned steps properly
to go up and down... (no way I could carry him up and down the steps
he's an 80 pound underweight puppy)
>
>>> All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
>>
>> Too bad. Don't you enforce rules?
>>
>
>Typical cheap shot by the childless not even worth a response.
NOT a cheap shot. I have the same question and I have children THREE
OF THEM, two grown.
>
>>>
>>> Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids docile enough
>>> that you can teach them to not feed the dog under the table.
>>
>> I've had more meals with more SMALL (and large) children than you can
>> imagine. All of them were quite aware that feeding the dog was
>> unacceptable.
>>
>
>Most people's kids, including our
>own, are perfect little angels when over at OTHER people's homes.
>They save their rotten behavior for their parents. But I can see this
>argument is pointless. Either you have never had kids yourself, in
>which case you simply don't know what your talking about, or your
>one of those few parents who had docile kids who grew up to be
>lawyers or dentists or something and take out their rebellion they never
>had with you on their unfortunate clients, or at their weekly
>therapist meeting.
Ted. I'm calling BULLSHIT here. sorry my kids are not angels. I've
had my share of problems. ONE of my kids is emotionally disturbed. He
knew rules. he followed rules or he had consequences. even at 24 he
is still fighting the rules and still suffering the consequences of
disregarding the rules, even if he does not understand it much more
than a 10 year old, we do it every day....
>
>And in any case, it's not really the feeding - our dinner table is small
>enough that we can grab if we see one of the kids doing it. It's even
>the hint of getting fed that is the problem.
they shouldn't need to be grabbed. they should not be doing it at
all.
it's a NON Issue.
my dogs lay next to or under the table when we eat. we like it that
way.
now granted my last dog was horrible about begging but that was
because we indulged him with treats from the table (sweet potato skins
mostly) and my MIL and BIL slipped him food whenever they were here
so I did crate him for dinner when we had company but when it was
just the family he KNEW that GO LAY DOWN meant just that.
>
>If a kid gets away even once with feeding the dog, the dog immediately
>assumes they have a shot at getting fed again.
exactly so you have to RE-train which is harder.
>Having a dog standing there
>staring at a kid waiting for an illicit handout is obviously an irresistable
>temptation to a child - it certainly was to ours. Thus, the simple and
>effective solution was to remove the temptation from the children.
or teach your children some restraint.
Sorry if my kid was sitting at the table and the dog was resting his
head on the table doing puppy eyes I'd tell the dog "go lay down"
(can't tell you how many meals early on my dogs spent doing their "sit
on it exercise" which is dog on leash, leash under my butt, dog on
"settle" (which is really a casual down in our house) on the floor
next to my chair being ignored)
my dogs heads hit the table (or in Hannah's case, paws like just
happened as I'm typing) and they are told OFF and pushed away.
my dogs are really really spoiled however they should have been taught
from the beginning "no table"
>
>It's easy to make pronouncements when you haven't seen the layout of
>the home. This is a small city house, with children, toys, and furniture,
>all of which
>arrived long before the dog and none of which was procured with a dog
>in mind. It's quite different than a childless home that's had dogs running
>around in it for years, and been optimized for that environment.
again BULLSHIT
one lab pit mix about 65 pounds
one NEWFOUNDLAND (currently underweight at about 80 pounds)
ONE TOWNHOUSE STUFFED WITH FURNINTURE, electronics, RC cars, stuff
that belonged to my mom, my teen terrors stuff, my stuff (and I
collect a lot of stuff)
NO garage to put stuff in....
house has games all over (we are gamers)
shoes everywhere
STUFF everywhere.
Please. more excuses on your part.
>
>Sure, we could totally rearrainge our home and lifestyle to make it possible
>to tether a dog to whoever is in the home at the time. (my wife, mainly)
what does it take for wife to put the leash through her belt loop and
go about her business. the dog walks in the house right? wife walks
in the house right?
dog and wife are in the same area at times right?
again you are just making excuses for not wanting to do what is being
suggested.
my friend is trying to fix a pee pee problem in her home. she did not
want to do what needed to be done (belly band her boy dog) so we
talked about what other options she had.
her choices are not mine but her dogs are not mine. she has 6 yr old
dogs she is retraining. it's hard work but it can be done... but she
did not make excuses for why she could not do it. she stood her
ground and said NO I DO NOT WANT TO DO IT THAT WAY.
and ya know what, that's her choice. the dogs may never learn to pee
outside but if she's OK with them using puppy pads forever, that's her
choice. but she did not make EXCUSES for why she could not do it. she
accepted the responsibility for her behavior and her feelings.
I think the biggest problem with folks here getting upset is when
folks refuse to take responsibility for their actions and choices.
I suck as a dog mom... but I admit it. and I take the responsibility
for my behavior and my dogs behavior, I don't try to make excuses or
blame it on someone else.
>The food isn't in the crate so when she is crated she can't get at it. When
>my wife came back she came out of the crate and ate the rest
>of it, then was taken outside. (she wasn't given any more food after that)
>She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
>she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was
>begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
>was instead watching TV.
a ten year old is being held responsible for housebreaking a dog but
can't be held responsible for not feeding it at the table.
sorry a ten year old sometimes can't be responsible for not wetting
themselves if the video game is interesting enough...
not sure when the dog went out before 4 or 5 pm but if it was much
before 2 I'd have put the dog out again.
the kids wanted the dog you got the dogs but I get the feeling you
really don't want the dog...
>
>Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us an
>unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
>and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
did he understand HOW to clean it up
how to use the Nature's Miracle and Simple Solution to make sure the
area she peed is not enticing next time?
you may not have had to actually clean it but I sure hope you
supervised it.
Proper ownership of a dog is something only an adult can handle.
Kids can be a part of it.
my daughter can feed the dogs now that they are on kibble and not
special diets
she can walk the dogs
she can teach tricks
she can pooper scoop the backyard as needed
but even at 16 1/2 she has to be asked:
did you feed the dogs? (oh no I forgot)
did you scoop the poop (sorry mom I fell asleep)
even at 16 the necessary adult wiring is not quite connected....
ten years old is too young to expect them to be the responsible party
for the dog.
You have been given great suggestions from great people.
these are the people that six years ago made me a much better dog mom
than I was.
these are the people that taught me well enough so that when my other
dog died and I applied to rescue a purebred, the rescue gladly gave me
a large puppy who had never been in a house at nearly 10 months who in
8 short weeks, I've managed to train and housebreak without many
problems (unless you count the submissive peeing which we've solved
too)
Accept that you came for help and you don't like what you are being
told.
you have two choices... do what's being suggested and fix the problem
or blow us off (those with years of dog experience both personal and
professional) try it your way and eventually say "we can't do this"
and rehome the dog.
Melinda Shore
>Most people's kids, [ ... ]
>Even Sara Palin [ ... ]
>about the best you can do is teach them
>that being an axe-murderer or thieving cars [ ... ]
I think I see the problem. Focus, Ted - Focus!
Janet Boss
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>
> So in other words they are banned because the PEOPLE can't handle
> them, not the dogs. I see now, it's still a cost savings issue, though,
> it's
> just that they want to save on liability costs as they are worried about
> being
> sued by numbnuts who lost a finger. I assume the same lawyers who sued
> because coffee was too hot were the ones that took that case?
Go ahead, get yourself a cheapo little chain leash and wrap it around
your hand, Have fun. Just don't expect to use it in an obedience
class. Oh yeah, grow up!
> Collars are no problem - not easy for the dog to get at and chew. But
> leather? That's not only easily chewed through, it's edible! So your dog
> can thank you for the treat while chewing through the leash I guess! :-)
Here's a really big clue - you don't ALLOW the dog to chew ANY leash
while you're out walking and once home, you put the leash out of the
dog's reach. Unless your kids can't resist feeding it to the dog.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Janet Boss
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
> Sure, sure. I've heard that one before. Multitasking is something that
> very
> FEW people do "well".
Oh well, I do.
> I thought I mentioned before this isn't a puppy?
I don't have dog problems either. I've brought home puppies and adult
dogs.
> Typical cheap shot by the childless not even worth a response.
The fact is, feeding dogs from the table is not a dog problem. OTOH, if
you can't train your children, maybe you can train your dog, but I'm
doubting it. Teaching the dog a "place" or "go lie down" command is a
very useful thing.
> Most people's kids, including our
> own, are perfect little angels when over at OTHER people's homes.
> They save their rotten behavior for their parents.
Weak parents perhaps. I've been in many roles in caring for children.
They've dined with me in my (and their) home, restaurants, etc, etc,
etc. Rules are just rules.
<snip a whole lotta ineffective parenting BS>
> It's easy to make pronouncements when you haven't seen the layout of
> the home. This is a small city house, with children, toys, and furniture,
> all of which
> arrived long before the dog and none of which was procured with a dog
> in mind. It's quite different than a childless home that's had dogs running
> around in it for years, and been optimized for that environment.
You are making an awful lot of excuses. I've lived in a small city home
(rowhouse) with 3 toddlers, a lot of toys, multiple dogs, and somehow,
everyone behaved themselves.
> The goal isn't to convert our home to a dog-training facility. The goal is
> to add another member to the family in the existing environment with
> some minor modifications - such as things like teaching the kids that if
> they let their toys lie around on the floor that they will become chew-toys,
> and that the additional family member can't use the watercloset and must
> be taken out periodically. Simple things like this.
I saw a GREAT dog for you yesterday, It was a Golden Retriever. Named
Biscuit. Available at Target. On-Off switch, responds to 6 commands,
and doesn't take food from unruly kids at the table!
>
> She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
> she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was
> begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
> was instead watching TV.
We've already established how well your kid listens.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Melinda Shore
Janet Boss <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>I don't have dog problems either. I've brought home puppies and adult
>dogs.
I've found that housetraining dogs is easier than
housetraining puppies. Not only do they have better bladder
control, they've also got more self-control in general.
Housetraining is usually pretty easy. The dog simply isn't
allowed to be alone unsupervised at any time until he
earns it. I understand people not wanting to have to make
big adjustments in their lives when they get a dog but
they're going to have to make *some* adjustments, and for
G-d's sake the dog's not going to housetrain himself.
Judy
news:i95n06...@news.ipinc.net...
> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us an
> unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
>
> Let's just say that it's rather an eye-opener to a 10 year old that
> wanting
> a dog and having a dog are two very different things. Muh hah hah hah
> haa!!
Okay - this was SO not funny.
You let the dog pee on the floor to teach the son a lesson.
What did the dog learn?
If you intentionally allow the dog to make these mistakes, you are showing
your lack of dedication to get the dog trained. You certainly knew that the
kid was not going to be the primary caretaker for the dog.
But I'm sure you have an excuse for that as well as for your kids' bad
behavior.
I have had kids. And dogs. All at the same time.
If you can't teach your kids that the dog isn't allowed to eat anything from
the table - and that they aren't allowed to feed him anything from the
table, what do you think your chances are for making and enforcing other
rules - rules that have good basis. Don't smoke - it's bad for you. Don't
speed. Don't drink until you are of legal age. Don't drive until you are
of legal age. Yes, kids break rules. And then you deal with it. But YOUR
commitment to the rule and to the expectation that they will obey it should
be 100%.
I expect kids to follow the laws and to not do things that hurt other
people. Feeding the dog from the table is a bad thing FOR THE DOG and the
kid should not do anything that hurts the dog.
If I said "do not feed the dog from the table", that rule would be enforced.
100%. Break that rule and you will have to leave the table. Now. I think
it's that lack of requiring 100% that is making it so difficult for you to
train your dog. If you can't say to a 10 year old "Do NOT feed the dog at
the table. It's not good for him to get human food and it encourages him to
continue unacceptable behavior" and have him then follow the rule, then you
need to reconsider whether or not you can train a dog - who can't be
explained the reasoning for a rule. I am assuming that a healthy dog is
important to your son and that the reasons for not feeding at the table
would matter to him.
How is this rule any different than saying "Do NOT throw your basketball in
the living room. You will break things and hit people with it"?
Tell your kids not to feed the dog at the table. Remove the dog from the
table area when people are eating. It's pretty simple.
Kids - and dogs - need rules. And they need to know that the adults will
enforce those rules. 100%. You need to be the grownup. You got a dog.
Either commit yourself to the effort you need to train him or find him
another home. Because what you're doing isn't making it any easier for the
next owners to housebreak him.
Judy
Janet Boss
"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote:
>
> Kids - and dogs - need rules. And they need to know that the adults will
> enforce those rules. 100%. You need to be the grownup. You got a dog.
> Either commit yourself to the effort you need to train him or find him
> another home. Because what you're doing isn't making it any easier for the
> next owners to housebreak him.
Agreed. I am reading an awful lot of excuses and blame, but not much
action. My recommendation for "Biscuit" stands.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Nessa
wrote:
> In article <6psoekF9o44...@mid.individual.net>,
I think I might get my hubby his own Biscuit.
He can't understand why Harley is MY DOG....
umm hello... I'm the one sleeping on the floor in front of the crate
I'm the one feeding
I'm the one training
I'm the one doing EVERYTHING...
Dogs are wonderful but they do have their limitations.
THEY Don't read the manual. (much like children)
Robin Nuttall
> So in other words they are banned because the PEOPLE can't handle
> them, not the dogs. I see now, it's still a cost savings issue, though,
> it's
> just that they want to save on liability costs as they are worried about
> being
> sued by numbnuts who lost a finger. I assume the same lawyers who sued
> because coffee was too hot were the ones that took that case?
I have no clue what point you're trying to make (other than you being
obtuse). I know of no people lawsuits involving chain leashes, but it
doesn't take much thought to realize how dangerous they can be. And
FWIW, they can also be very dangerous for dogs. A dog chewing on a chain
lead could get a tooth caught in a link and likewise, a chain lead that
got inadvertently wrapped around a tail or paw could do a lot of damage.
>
> Unfortunately the tendency to dumb-down products for the general unwashed
> masses who you couldn't trust with a burnt out match is very prevalent these
> days in US society. It's a sad commentary.
It doesn't have a thing to do with dumbing something down. It has to do
with using the most effective tool that is kindest for human hands and
for the dog.
> Collars are no problem - not easy for the dog to get at and chew. But
> leather? That's not only easily chewed through, it's edible! So your dog
> can thank you for the treat while chewing through the leash I guess! :-)
My dogs aren't tied out. My dogs wear leashes with a human attached to
the other end. Thus, there is no danger of the dog chewing through the
leash because they are (gasp) trained not to do so and because I'm
actually there, I can prevent it happening.
kat
You mean a donorcycle?
and
> I am still alive, (riding for 15 years now)
Famous last words.
I have learned how to deal with
> tools that can take much more than a finger off, if mishandled.
It's more about other people (rather than your ability) when it comes to
donorcycles. I hope your swagger doesn't come back to haunt you one day.
Not sure what this analogy has to do with chain leashes other than you like
to take chances with your (and your dog's) safety?
Kathy
montana wildhack
> Sure, we could totally rearrainge our home and lifestyle to make it possible
> to tether a dog to whoever is in the home at the time.
It's not as big a deal as you think, really.
Nature's Miracle used to be the "good" enzyme cleaner but now there's
something better.
I don't know if there's a decent pet supply store near you (the big box
stores are rarely staffed with experienced people, IMO) but ask them.
Many of them sell cheap black light.
With the two tools, go with child-who-wanted dog and clean. Set up a
schedule for the dog to go out WITH a human to be praised and treated
after potty. Have child help in this endeavor.
Find a good dog trainer. Take family and dog to classes.
It's all routine.
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
news:6psoekF...@mid.individual.net...
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:i95n06...@news.ipinc.net...
>> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us
>> an
>> unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
>> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
>>
>> Let's just say that it's rather an eye-opener to a 10 year old that
>> wanting
>> a dog and having a dog are two very different things. Muh hah hah hah
>> haa!!
>
> Okay - this was SO not funny.
>
> You let the dog pee on the floor to teach the son a lesson.
>
Your going overboard here. I'll repeat it, very simply. We told the
kid to watch the dog because she is making a mess. He didn't. The
natural consequence is that the dog made a mess. The kid's consequence
is that he has to deal with it.
Were we supposed to be watching both the kid and the dog at the
same time, and when we observe the dog peeing, come flying in and
correct everything?
Perhaps you should google up "Helicopter parenting" Here, I'll
do it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent
> What did the dog learn?
>
The question is what did the dog NOT learn? Yes, one more
opportunity slipped by to help train the dog to not pee on the carpet.
However, we aren't going to get the dog trained unless the entire
family pitches in.
There's multiple training going on here - the dog isn't the only one
being trained.
> If you intentionally allow the dog to make these mistakes, you are showing
> your lack of dedication to get the dog trained. You certainly knew that
> the kid was not going to be the primary caretaker for the dog.
>
Of course. But, we aren't going to let our son completely off the hook
either. He wanted a dog. He got a dog. Now he's going to have to
learn to deal with it, as much as he is able to. And a 10 year old is
certainly capabably of watching a dog for an hour.
If we take the dog back to the shelter, as another poster suggested would
be the outcome, what are we teaching our son? I'll tell you - we are
teaching
him that pets are disposable. Well, you may feel different but ultimately
it is more important to teach our son that a pet ISN'T disposable than to
teach the dog to stop peeing on the floor. Obviously, we want both.
If we do not allow our son to fall on his face a few times - meaning,
if he screws off when he's supposed to be watching the dog and the dog
craps on the floor and he has no consequences as a result - then he isn't
going to learn anything about caring for a dog. Sure, we know he's going
to screw up - because he's a kid, not an adult.
> But I'm sure you have an excuse for that as well as for your kids' bad
> behavior.
>
You seem to love dismissing arguments you don't like with the loaded
word "excuse" You might try actually using some analysis and logic
to make an actual argument one of these days rather than just using a
loaded word, it might be an eye-opener.
> I have had kids. And dogs. All at the same time.
>
> If you can't teach your kids that the dog isn't allowed to eat anything
> from the table - and that they aren't allowed to feed him anything from
> the table, what do you think your chances are for making and enforcing
> other rules - rules that have good basis. Don't smoke - it's bad for you.
> Don't speed. Don't drink until you are of legal age. Don't drive until
> you are of legal age. Yes, kids break rules. And then you deal with it.
> But YOUR commitment to the rule and to the expectation that they will obey
> it should be 100%.
>
It makes no difference what our commitment to the rule and expectation of
obedience is. Kids do what they do and then deal with the results. Our
kids knowing that doing something against the rules is going to get them a
consequence doesen't really make much difference when they decide to
do something on the spur of the moment.
I think you are attributing adult behavior here to children. Perhaps you
should
read some textbooks on child development. Most children do not consider and
predict the consequences of an action before doing it. They learn from the
consequences
of their actions. But, that learning is in proportion to the consequence,
and in
proportion to the reward of the action.
If a kid for example plugs a metal key into an electrical outlet (as I did
once when
I was probably around 6 years old) and gets the crap scared out of
him when there's lots of bright sparks for a second followed by the fuse
blowing,
that's a pretty serious consequence. And on the flip side, there's really
no reward
for plugging in the metal key - unless they have a fetish for making sparks
or
something. Thus, the kid makes an internal conclusion that reward value is
very low, bad consequence value is very high - so they aren't going to do it
again.
But, if a kid for example drops a scrap to the family dog under the table,
then
it's an entirely different setup. Let's say the punishment is loss of ice
cream for
dessert - a typical punishment someone might use. Well the kid goes to make
his internal conclusion and what he comes up with is that the reward value
is
high - you get the fun of seeing the dog gobble down the scrap, plus the
positive feedback of the dog obviously enjoying what your doing - but you
also
get the bad consequence value is high too - you lose ice cream. On the
scales the kid uses on weighing things, the bad might just cancel out the
good,
thus your punishment may ultimately have no real deterrence value. The
lesson
may not stick.
That's why it might take a few weeks of losing ice cream before the kid
actually
learns anything. Because, ultimately the reward value of seeing the dog
gobble
down the scrap drops, because it becomes boring if you have fed the dog 10
or so times. While the reward value of the ice cream likely is going to
take a
lot, lot longer to become boring.
Adults look at things a lot differently - adults can run scenarios
presumptively
before doing an action. Kids eventually learn how to do this as they grow
up, if their development has proceeded properly.
> I expect kids to follow the laws and to not do things that hurt other
> people. Feeding the dog from the table is a bad thing FOR THE DOG and the
> kid should not do anything that hurts the dog.
>
> If I said "do not feed the dog from the table", that rule would be
> enforced. 100%. Break that rule and you will have to leave the table.
> Now.
Consider that one of the reasons the kid may be feeding the dog under the
table is that they simply are bored with dinner and aren't really hungry.
So,
what the kid has succeeded here in doing is when you tell them to leave,
is manipulating you into doing exactly what they wanted you to do. Maybe
they didn't want to eat the meatloaf or broccoli or whatever, and were just
looking for an excuse to be told to leave. That is why these definite rules
that you seem to favor don't always work in all situations with children.
> I think it's that lack of requiring 100% that is making it so difficult
> for you to train your dog.
That is actually a good suggestion. Keep in mind that I am not home all
day, there are other people in the house. They may not be doing exactly
what I would do with the dog and that may be part of the problem. It's
worth investigating and I will do that.
> If you can't say to a 10 year old "Do NOT feed the dog at the table. It's
> not good for him to get human food and it encourages him to continue
> unacceptable behavior" and have him then follow the rule,
ONE of our kids is 10. The other is 6. The 10 year old, possibly.
Espically the more involved in her care he is. The 6 year old, forget it.
> then you need to reconsider whether or not you can train a dog - who can't
> be explained the reasoning for a rule. I am assuming that a healthy dog
> is important to your son and that the reasons for not feeding at the table
> would matter to him.
>
This is a very slippery slope to go down. Kids learn by observation.
We have, for example, repeatedly said over and over that chocolate
is poison to dogs ever since she came into the house. This is impressive
enough to both kids.
But, saying that feeding table scraps is unhealthy is a whole different
ballgame, because frankly many table scraps are NOT unhealthy. For
example, if the kid drops a green bean on the floor and the dog eats it,
that's not going to result in the dog being rushed off to the dog hospital
to get her stomach pumped, or result in her throwing up her stomach
contents on the floor. Neither would feeding eggs, meat scraps, fat,
and a whole host of other foods. The danger of some of the scraps is
long term, cumulative damage, and of other scraps like the beans not
only are they not damaging, they are the opposite.
If we tell the kids that feeding scraps to the dog is unhealthy and
they do it anyway and observe no ill effects in the short term, then that
just
undercuts our authority - so that when it comes to something really serious,
like
chocolate, or grapes, or something like that, they are a lot less willing
to believe us.
The analogy here is Billy Blonde who knows nothing about cars goes
and buys a new car. He is told by the salesperson how important it
is to bring the car in for regular oil changes every 3000 miles. Billy
goes off and 3000 miles later, forgets to change the oil, and nothing
happens. Then 6000 miles later still nothing has happened. Than 12,000
miles later, still nothing has happened. Billy has now skipped 4 oil
changes, and he finally brings his car in. The mechanic looks at it
and tells Billy how terrible it is, and so on - but changes the oil, and
off Billy goes again, by now figuring that these mechanics are just
scheming greedy peckers. He drives another 12,000 miles and
takes it in again, and gets the lecture again.
4 years later, Billy has driven a total of 48,000 miles and done
exactly 4 oil changes, and then takes the car in and it's running fine,
and he trades it in for a new model. By now, he is utterly convinced
that 3000 mile oil changes are rip offs, and he fervently believes
all the garbage that is written about these "extended drain" oils
for cars.
6 years later, the car has 80,000 miles on it, and it's knocking
like an old threashing machine, and throws a rod
right through the side of the engine block.
Your never in a million years going to convince Billy that he
wore out the engine in his car.
This is the problem with the table scraps. An adult, like
you or me, can read the analogy and get it. A child simply cannot,
their brains have not yet developed to the point that they can.
> How is this rule any different than saying "Do NOT throw your basketball
> in the living room. You will break things and hit people with it"?
>
Because (at least in our house) if you did throw a basketball in the
living room, you might be lucky to get 1 bounce out of it before something
WOULD break. And, in fact, both kids have thrown stuff in the house
and seen the immediate results.
> Tell your kids not to feed the dog at the table. Remove the dog from the
> table area when people are eating. It's pretty simple.
>
Um, removing the dog from the table area by crating is exactly what we
ARE doing - and you jumped all over me when I said that was the
preferred solution. Now, your advocating it? Now who's being 100%
consistent?
> Kids - and dogs - need rules. And they need to know that the adults will
> enforce those rules. 100%.
And adults need to know that regardless of 100% enforcement, kids will
still break the rules.
> You need to be the grownup. You got a dog. Either commit yourself to the
> effort you need to train him or find him
train her, or find her,
> another home. Because what you're doing isn't making it any easier for
> the next owners to housebreak him.
>
You seem to like making a lot of assumptions here. Is it really true that
in your world, people regularly get rid of dogs because they have a hard
time training them? Seems rather a defeatist attitude to me.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oe1ij4pju2tesihfc...@4ax.com...
How, exactly? Your saying I'm wrong then proceeding to follow with
a story supporting what I said? I don't follow.
OK, so it's my fault I'm not teaching my kids restraint, but it's NOT
your fault that your 24 year old didn't learn restraint from you?
> Sorry if my kid was sitting at the table and the dog was resting his
> head on the table doing puppy eyes I'd tell the dog "go lay down"
> (can't tell you how many meals early on my dogs spent doing their "sit
> on it exercise" which is dog on leash, leash under my butt, dog on
> "settle" (which is really a casual down in our house) on the floor
> next to my chair being ignored)
>
> my dogs heads hit the table (or in Hannah's case, paws like just
> happened as I'm typing) and they are told OFF and pushed away.
>
We do all that, and she doesen't put her paws on the table. We don't
want her to START doing that, which is why crating is better for us.
She has jumped on the table a few times when we had all left and there
was still food on the table - our bad, though, good incentive to make
sure the table is cleared before everyone leaves the kitchen.
Wife will sit down to do something and if the leash is fabric the dog
will have it chewed through in about a minute - that's about how long
it took her when I tried tethering with the last leash. I personally
wouldn't
have a problem using the chain leash and doing this - but that's me.
I can't force my wife to do this, and knowing her I highly doubt that
she would do it. And the times I am home, the peeing is generally not
a problem. As for tethering to an inanimate object, I see little difference
between doing this with a short leash and crating - and doing it with a
long chain isn't feasible and something like a long plastic-coated cable
would
just let her go into a corner and pee.
>
> again you are just making excuses for not wanting to do what is being
> suggested.
>
That's your interpretation. Is it your position
that there's no other way to housebreak than tethering to a person?
> my friend is trying to fix a pee pee problem in her home. she did not
> want to do what needed to be done (belly band her boy dog) so we
> talked about what other options she had.
>
> her choices are not mine but her dogs are not mine. she has 6 yr old
> dogs she is retraining. it's hard work but it can be done... but she
> did not make excuses for why she could not do it. she stood her
> ground and said NO I DO NOT WANT TO DO IT THAT WAY.
>
> and ya know what, that's her choice. the dogs may never learn to pee
> outside but if she's OK with them using puppy pads forever, that's her
> choice. but she did not make EXCUSES for why she could not do it. she
> accepted the responsibility for her behavior and her feelings.
>
> I think the biggest problem with folks here getting upset is when
> folks refuse to take responsibility for their actions and choices.
>
Perhaps, but this isn't what this is all about. What this is about is
figuring out how to housebreak our dog. I came to the forum looking
for suggestions - I'll consider all of them. I'm not arguing that tethering
is a stupid way to housebreak or won't work. I'm saying that it's
impractical for us and I'm going to try other things first.
> I suck as a dog mom... but I admit it. and I take the responsibility
> for my behavior and my dogs behavior, I don't try to make excuses or
> blame it on someone else.
>
>
>
>>The food isn't in the crate so when she is crated she can't get at it.
>>When
>>my wife came back she came out of the crate and ate the rest
>>of it, then was taken outside. (she wasn't given any more food after
>>that)
>>She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
>>she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was
>>begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
>>was instead watching TV.
>
> a ten year old is being held responsible for housebreaking a dog but
> can't be held responsible for not feeding it at the table.
>
> sorry a ten year old sometimes can't be responsible for not wetting
> themselves if the video game is interesting enough...
>
Heh.
>
> not sure when the dog went out before 4 or 5 pm but if it was much
> before 2 I'd have put the dog out again.
>
> the kids wanted the dog you got the dogs but I get the feeling you
> really don't want the dog...
>
I don't want a dog that pees inside the house, so I'm going to get her to
stop doing it, somehow. As for not wanting her, well I will say 2 things,
first that I don't have a fundamental need for a dog, and second that
right now I am not that emotionally invested in this dog. However, it would
be nice to have one, and I am sure that the longer that we have this one
around that the more invested in her I will get.
Your statement is pretty much equivalent to a woman saying to her
boyfriend of 1 month that she gets the feeling that he really doesen't
want to get married. In other words, no matter how he answers,
he's screwed.
>
>>
>>Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us an
>>unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
>>and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
>
>
> did he understand HOW to clean it up
> how to use the Nature's Miracle and Simple Solution to make sure the
> area she peed is not enticing next time?
>
> you may not have had to actually clean it but I sure hope you
> supervised it.
>
We don't have an enzyme cleaner yet, which is why I asked for
suggestions of one - and I'll be picking one up tomorrow for
sure. But I'm not convinced she is trying to "save up" so that
she can pee in that area - the area isn't "enticing" her to pee.
I think rather that she feels the need to pee, and goes to that
area because she's peed there before rather than coming to
get one of us and asking to go out. It's not like she is peeing in
the exact same spot - she has a fairly large radius of several feet
in the general area, and she hasn't always peed in that general area,
she's peed in a few other places in the house.
If the area were completely cleansed with the proper cleaner I do
not think it would stop her peeing in the house - she would just
pee somewhere else. Like someone said, I think the real problem is
that she just hasn't gotten the hint yet that peeing in the house is
not acceptable.
>
>
> Proper ownership of a dog is something only an adult can handle.
>
> Kids can be a part of it.
>
> my daughter can feed the dogs now that they are on kibble and not
> special diets
>
> she can walk the dogs
> she can teach tricks
> she can pooper scoop the backyard as needed
>
>
> but even at 16 1/2 she has to be asked:
>
> did you feed the dogs? (oh no I forgot)
> did you scoop the poop (sorry mom I fell asleep)
>
> even at 16 the necessary adult wiring is not quite connected....
>
Exactly as I have been arguing to Judy.
>
> ten years old is too young to expect them to be the responsible party
> for the dog.
>
But not too young to expect them to have SOME responsibility for the dog.
>
>
> You have been given great suggestions from great people.
>
> these are the people that six years ago made me a much better dog mom
> than I was.
>
> these are the people that taught me well enough so that when my other
> dog died and I applied to rescue a purebred, the rescue gladly gave me
> a large puppy who had never been in a house at nearly 10 months who in
> 8 short weeks, I've managed to train and housebreak without many
> problems (unless you count the submissive peeing which we've solved
> too)
>
> Accept that you came for help and you don't like what you are being
> told.
>
That isn't true. I DO like a LOT of what I've read. Not all of it, but
I think anyone must be a bit arrogant to think that every single thing
they suggest is going to be taken as gospel. Frankly if every one of the
great people on this forum completely agreed with each other 100%,
there'd be no postings at all - you wouldn't need to bother to post since
you would already know the answer.
> you have two choices... do what's being suggested and fix the problem
>
> or blow us off (those with years of dog experience both personal and
> professional) try it your way and eventually say "we can't do this"
> and rehome the dog.
>
I have more choices than that simple black and white summary, and I
think you know that. I can try it "your way" and it might not work, I can
try it "my way" and it might work, or it might not and I may end up doing
it "your way" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than
are dreamt of in your philosophy
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
"kat" <katl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MuednZgjsJ67L6TU...@posted.localnet...
Hee hee. :-)
>
> and
>> I am still alive, (riding for 15 years now)
>
> Famous last words.
>
Actually, MC accidents have been extensively studied, one of
the best reports is here:
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html
I think you might be surprised if you read it. MCs are no
more dangerous than cars if properly ridden - the problem is way way
too many people don't use them right as is well documented in the
report.
>
> I have learned how to deal with
>> tools that can take much more than a finger off, if mishandled.
>
> It's more about other people (rather than your ability) when it comes to
> donorcycles. I hope your swagger doesn't come back to haunt you one day.
>
No it is not, not according to the report. Item 4:
"In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the
accident
precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases"
It really is much more about your ability than other people. Seriously.
> Not sure what this analogy has to do with chain leashes other than you
> like
> to take chances with your (and your dog's) safety?
>
Your response merely underlines the effectiveness of the analogy. You
believe MC's are dangerous because of hearsay knowledge, ie:
all the other drivers out there - when the scientific studies prove
otherwise.
You believe non-choke chain leashes are dangerous because of hearsay
knowledge -
not a single anti-non-choke-chain advocate has cited a single scientific
study to
prove their claim. In short, without some science, your believing a myth.
The fact that I, a newcomer to the forum, challenged a myth and provoked
a spirited defense is even more proof it's a myth. If you had any proof you
wouldn't need to make an emotional argument, you would just cite the
proof and say I'm wrong and here's why.
I suppose it's not a good time to fire up the debate over plastic water
dishes? ;-)
Ted
Nessa
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:oe1ij4pju2tesihfc...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:28:09 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
>> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>>>news:janet-19CDE7....@news.individual.net...
>>>> In article <tvol06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
>>>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>>>Most people's kids, including our
>>>own, are perfect little angels when over at OTHER people's homes.
>>>They save their rotten behavior for their parents. But I can see this
>>>argument is pointless. Either you have never had kids yourself, in
>>>which case you simply don't know what your talking about, or your
>>>one of those few parents who had docile kids who grew up to be
>>>lawyers or dentists or something and take out their rebellion they never
>>>had with you on their unfortunate clients, or at their weekly
>>>therapist meeting.
>>
>>
>> Ted. I'm calling BULLSHIT here.
>
>How, exactly? Your saying I'm wrong then proceeding to follow with
>a story supporting what I said? I don't follow.
because to say that kids are terrors at home but good when out is
bullshit.
my kids were terrors whenever and wherever they wanted to be. the
consequences were the same wherever they were.
they didn't grow up to be perfect.
basically you are saying because someone doesn't have kids or has
perfect kids they have no clue about the shoes you walk in.
that's BULLSHIT.
>> or teach your children some restraint.
>>
>
>OK, so it's my fault I'm not teaching my kids restraint, but it's NOT
>your fault that your 24 year old didn't learn restraint from you?
NOT sure what part of EMOTIONALLY DISABLED you missed.
I did the freaking best I could with my 24 year old who for a RAINMAN
type person is doing the best he can.
FWIW the 22 year old has it perfectly and the 16 yr old is learning it
well. Considering I've only been her mom for 4 years she's doing
GREAT....
>
>> Sorry if my kid was sitting at the table and the dog was resting his
>> head on the table doing puppy eyes I'd tell the dog "go lay down"
>> (can't tell you how many meals early on my dogs spent doing their "sit
>> on it exercise" which is dog on leash, leash under my butt, dog on
>> "settle" (which is really a casual down in our house) on the floor
>> next to my chair being ignored)
>>
>> my dogs heads hit the table (or in Hannah's case, paws like just
>> happened as I'm typing) and they are told OFF and pushed away.
>>
>
>We do all that, and she doesen't put her paws on the table. We don't
>want her to START doing that, which is why crating is better for us.
no you don't want her doing that and you don't want to crate her which
is not training that's avoidance.
what you want to do is TRAIN her not to jump on the table, TRAIN her
(and the kids) not to eat from the table or feed from the table.
TRAINING
TRAINING
TRAINING
that's the key
>She has jumped on the table a few times when we had all left and there
>was still food on the table - our bad, though, good incentive to make
>sure the table is cleared before everyone leaves the kitchen.
yep get a newspaper and smack yourself over the head.
WE never leave the table with food on it... Heck I can't leave the
counters with food on them. I can't leave anything less than 6 feet
off the ground with anything enticing on it.
My puppy on his rear legs can reach over 5 feet without a stretch....
>
>Wife will sit down to do something and if the leash is fabric the dog
>will have it chewed through in about a minute - that's about how long
>it took her when I tried tethering with the last leash. I personally
>wouldn't
Janet's suggestion of a steel cable sounds great...
Harley has eaten three leashes in 6 weeks. he was tethered to me
while I slept on the couch. He's just a tad younger than your dog....
I feel your pain. I don't tether with my leather leashes.
IF I was still tethering (we are not he's no longer in need of it) I
would be using the steel cable as Janet suggested. they are flexible
they are light weight and they are fairly indestructible.
>have a problem using the chain leash and doing this - but that's me.
>I can't force my wife to do this, and knowing her I highly doubt that
>she would do it.
so she's not on board with doing everything necessary to housebreak
this new family member?
>And the times I am home, the peeing is generally not
>a problem. As for tethering to an inanimate object, I see little difference
if my dogs were tethered to an inanimate object it would be the bed
I'm sleeping in.
I would not tether to something I was not actively sitting or laying
on.
>between doing this with a short leash and crating - and doing it with a
>long chain isn't feasible and something like a long plastic-coated cable
>would
>just let her go into a corner and pee.
define LONG? six feet doubled through a belt loop leaves 3 feet for
the pup... seems short to me.
>
>That's your interpretation. Is it your position
>that there's no other way to housebreak than tethering to a person?
Nope. Harley was housebroken without tethering. he's going to be a
year old at the end of this month. He's a rescue. He did not even
know how to do steps and he was terrified of all of us when we got
him.
to housebreak Harley:
he was crated when we were not home (I could have crated when I was
asleep but I'm a light sleeper and opted to sleep on the couch with
him instead at which point we did attempt to tether him to me on a
leash)
he was with me when I was awake
he sniffed (even if he had been out 15 minutes before) he was asked
"do you have to pee" out he went. He peed he got praise
He went out every few hours I was awake
he went out after he ate...
ONCE about 4 weeks into having Harley I was distracted on the
computer (sending money to the kid at Drexel--the one that learned the
rules well) and right next to me he started to pee (he squats he does
NOT mark or lift his leg) and he started to pee.
I said (a bit too excitedly I fear)
"NO NO NO"
and grabbed his collars (he wears two one for his leash one with his
tags) and sadly a bit of his scruff (he's very thin and has a lot of
loose skin right now) THIS startles them and they stop peeing
we RAN down the steps (my holding his collars) and I put him out the
door and said "go pee"
he peed and the praise was so intense from mommy you would think that
the dog found the cure for cancer.
we've NOT had an incident in the house since then.
in fact now while he has not figured out going to the door to ask to
go out (MY preferred method of asking) he will come and lick my hand
or face if I'm laying down or if I'm awake and doing something (in the
room where he is) I notice him moving about and OUT he goes.
it's still about being aware of what the dog is up to...
IF he's not happily chewing something (a toy of his)
or playing with the other dog
or sleeping at my feet
he's looking to do something and that MIGHT mean he has to potty so
OUT we go....
>> I think the biggest problem with folks here getting upset is when
>> folks refuse to take responsibility for their actions and choices.
>>
>
>Perhaps, but this isn't what this is all about. What this is about is
>figuring out how to housebreak our dog. I came to the forum looking
>for suggestions - I'll consider all of them. I'm not arguing that tethering
>is a stupid way to housebreak or won't work. I'm saying that it's
>impractical for us and I'm going to try other things first.
that's fair. and reasonable.
>>
>> the kids wanted the dog you got the dogs but I get the feeling you
>> really don't want the dog...
>>
>
>I don't want a dog that pees inside the house, so I'm going to get her to
>stop doing it, somehow. As for not wanting her, well I will say 2 things,
>first that I don't have a fundamental need for a dog, and second that
>right now I am not that emotionally invested in this dog. However, it would
>be nice to have one, and I am sure that the longer that we have this one
>around that the more invested in her I will get.
it's hard to become emotionally attached to a dog that is not
complying with your rules... I hope you can all figure out the
problems and find solutions for them.
I myself have a fundamental need for dogs in my home. yes DOGS. I
wish we lived in a bigger house and I could have a whole pack...
>
>Your statement is pretty much equivalent to a woman saying to her
>boyfriend of 1 month that she gets the feeling that he really doesen't
>want to get married. In other words, no matter how he answers,
>he's screwed.
I don't see it that way at all.
at 1 month a woman knows she's still training him and he can't be
expected to comply yet...
>>
>
>We don't have an enzyme cleaner yet, which is why I asked for
>suggestions of one - and I'll be picking one up tomorrow for
>sure. But I'm not convinced she is trying to "save up" so that
>she can pee in that area - the area isn't "enticing" her to pee.
ah no... it's not ENTICING HER TO PEE but it is calling her back to
the same area telling her that it smells like pee (to her even if it
does not smell like it to you) so it must be a good place to pee.
>I think rather that she feels the need to pee, and goes to that
>area because she's peed there before rather than coming to
>get one of us and asking to go out. It's not like she is peeing in
>the exact same spot - she has a fairly large radius of several feet
>in the general area, and she hasn't always peed in that general area,
>she's peed in a few other places in the house.
at that's the key
IF she has not learned to tell you she has to pee yet then you have to
watch her CONSTANTLY and if she SNIFFS even once OUT SHE GOES...
dog sniffs
person asks in an excited voice "<puppy's name> do you have to pee,
do you wanna go OUT?"
and OUT goes the puppy with the person saying
"go pee-pee (or whatever the command you use is) <puppy's name>
and you say that till puppy pees at which time the person says
"good pee-pee, good <puppy's name> good pee-pee" all excited and
praising. you feel like a total MORON... getting all excited about
pee and poo....
didn't you get excited when the kid peed in the potty the first time?
same thing....
>
>If the area were completely cleansed with the proper cleaner I do
>not think it would stop her peeing in the house - she would just
>pee somewhere else. Like someone said, I think the real problem is
>that she just hasn't gotten the hint yet that peeing in the house is
>not acceptable.
nope she has not.
but it HELPS if she can't smell the pee....
>
>>
>>
>> Proper ownership of a dog is something only an adult can handle.
>>
>> Kids can be a part of it.
>> even at 16 the necessary adult wiring is not quite connected....
>>
>
>Exactly as I have been arguing to Judy.
but yet you expect the kid to be responsible for the dog.... that
works well ONCE The dog is trained... but NOT when you are training
the dog.
I would NOT expect my 16 yr old babysitter to know how to toilet train
my toddler. I'd put the kid back in diapers when I went out...
>
>>
>> ten years old is too young to expect them to be the responsible party
>> for the dog.
>>
>
>But not too young to expect them to have SOME responsibility for the dog.
no not too young to be somewhat responsible for a TRAINED dog or for
picking up the poop or for putting down the food bowl or for hanging
up the leash and training collar...
BUT NOT for housebreaking.
>> Accept that you came for help and you don't like what you are being
>> told.
>>
>
>That isn't true. I DO like a LOT of what I've read. Not all of it, but
>I think anyone must be a bit arrogant to think that every single thing
>they suggest is going to be taken as gospel. Frankly if every one of the
>great people on this forum completely agreed with each other 100%,
>there'd be no postings at all - you wouldn't need to bother to post since
>you would already know the answer.
the folks here posting post because they want to help.
6 years ago was a bit different. what's left now are the core folks
that were here helping then and they are all pretty much in
agreement on how to housebreak a dog....
I hope you find what works for you, your dog and your family. Dogs
are a wonderful part of the family.
Judy
> Were we supposed to be watching both the kid and the dog at the
> same time, and when we observe the dog peeing, come flying in and
> correct everything?
No. You were supposed to be watching the dog. A ten year old cannot be
responsible for housebreaking a dog. Especially a dog who has some issues
to deal with. You keep pretending that the dog belongs to the kid. The dog
belongs to you. You are the grown-up. You are responsible for the dog.
> The question is what did the dog NOT learn? Yes, one more
> opportunity slipped by to help train the dog to not pee on the carpet.
> However, we aren't going to get the dog trained unless the entire
> family pitches in.
Yes, you are. You are the grown-up. You are the one who needs to
housebreak the dog. Not the kids.
You have a dog with a past that needs to be addressed - hence the not
completely housebroken adult dog. Every single time you allow the dog to
fail (pee in the house) sets back the housebreaking. It's not just the
missed opportunity to get the dog outside. It's that you *allowed* the dog
to pee in the house. This is a distinction that you are missing.
> There's multiple training going on here - the dog isn't the only one
> being trained.
Train your kids other ways. You are setting this dog up for failure. The
dog deserves better.
>
> Of course. But, we aren't going to let our son completely off the hook
> either. He wanted a dog. He got a dog. Now he's going to have to
> learn to deal with it, as much as he is able to.
Ah. The truth of the matter.
Again - a ten year old - especially one who has never had a dog nor trained
a dog nor housebroke a dog - is not going to be able to housebreak a dog
that his parents are not capable of housebreaking.
>And a 10 year old is
> certainly capabably of watching a dog for an hour.
I've had ten year olds. He is capable of watching a dog for an hour if that
is what he is doing. Instead you allowed him to also do other things with a
dog that you knew would/could be a problem. You set both of them up for
failure. And then you admit that you and your wife were secretly pleased
because you wanted an excuse to restrict his TV time. And, it seems to me,
to also prove to your son that he wasn't capable of handling the dog that he
wanted so very much. Is the dog just a training tool for your son?
Dog training and kid training are very much alike. Your results are better
if you don't expect more than the student is capable of doing. If you make
sure that the student is clear on what is necessary to perform the task
assigned. And if you set them up for success, not failure.
I do know more than a little bit about dog training, child raising and
psychology.
> it is more important to teach our son that a pet ISN'T disposable than to
> teach the dog to stop peeing on the floor. Obviously, we want both.
Then you have to also teach him that you VALUE this dog. That this dog is
worth YOUR time and effort to housebreak. That you and your wife are
willing to put in a LOT of effort to housebreak this dog. Because if you
just did that for a short period of time, it is very likely that the dog
would get housebroken. And then you could put the kid in charge of taking
the dog out when she needed to go out.
Your kid would have learned that the dog has value and that it was important
to you. He would have seen what it took to housebreak a dog. He would have
learned by example.
> Sure, we know he's going
> to screw up - because he's a kid, not an adult.
But when he screws up, the dog gets hurt here. You need to find other ways
to teach your son.
> You seem to love dismissing arguments you don't like with the loaded
> word "excuse"
You've argued with me before? Because I sure don't remember that.
>Kids do what they do and then deal with the results. Our
> kids knowing that doing something against the rules is going to get them a
> consequence doesen't really make much difference when they decide to
> do something on the spur of the moment.
Your son is ten, right? Not two? He hasn't learned impulse control yet?
>Most children do not consider and
> predict the consequences of an action before doing it. They learn from
> the consequences
> of their actions.
Again, your son is ten?
> But, if a kid for example drops a scrap to the family dog under the table,
> then
> it's an entirely different setup. Let's say the punishment is loss of ice
> cream for
> dessert - a typical punishment someone might use.
I said - if the child feeds the dog his food then the child leaves the
table. Now. Does not finish his own dinner - ice cream for dessert is not
an issue. A little higher consequence than not getting ice cream. Because
by dropping that scrap to the dog he is potentially harming the dog. The
dog should not be eating people food. The child should not be making
decisions that effect the dog's diet.
>
> Adults look at things a lot differently - adults can run scenarios
> presumptively
> before doing an action. Kids eventually learn how to do this as they grow
> up, if their development has proceeded properly.
At ten, your son should be fully capable of doing this. But only if you
have enforced rules and consequences up to this point.
If your son hit another child in kindergarten and got separated from the
rest of the class for a period of time, don't you think he would learn
fairly quickly to connect the two? And to consider this before hitting
another child - if not the next time then the time after that? That's at
five. Your son is ten.
Ten. He's ten. When do you think he's going to learn to not do things that
hurt other people and animals? And until he does learn it, don't you think
that you have the responsibility to protect those other people and animals?
> Consider that one of the reasons the kid may be feeding the dog under the
> table is that they simply are bored with dinner and aren't really hungry.
> So,
> what the kid has succeeded here in doing is when you tell them to leave,
> is manipulating you into doing exactly what they wanted you to do. Maybe
> they didn't want to eat the meatloaf or broccoli or whatever, and were
> just
> looking for an excuse to be told to leave. That is why these definite
> rules
> that you seem to favor don't always work in all situations with children.
I suggest that when he is asked to leave the table that he not be then
allowed to go play video games. Or whatever it is that you seem to think he
really wanted to do. Also - again - remove the dog from the dining area
when people are eating, as you say you are doing. But the "kids don't feed
dogs without adult approval" rule also applies to the living room. My dogs
do not hang out in the dining room because there is no chance that they are
going to get either food or attention. Before they learned to go elsewhere
on command, they were crated while people ate.
> ONE of our kids is 10. The other is 6. The 10 year old, possibly.
> Espically the more involved in her care he is. The 6 year old, forget it.
You aren't giving your six year old nearly enough credit for understanding
rule. I think when this child is at school, if there were a rule to not
share your lunch, that there wouldn't be any lunch-sharing. Especially if
the teachers explained that some people have food allergies and may not be
able to eat your peanut butter.
> But, saying that feeding table scraps is unhealthy is a whole different
> ballgame, because frankly many table scraps are NOT unhealthy. For
> example, if the kid drops a green bean on the floor and the dog eats it,
> that's not going to result in the dog being rushed off to the dog hospital
> to get her stomach pumped, or result in her throwing up her stomach
> contents on the floor. Neither would feeding eggs, meat scraps, fat,
> and a whole host of other foods. The danger of some of the scraps is
> long term, cumulative damage, and of other scraps like the beans not
> only are they not damaging, they are the opposite.
If you feed your dog pork fat scraps (or a whole host ofother foods), you
had better hope that throwing up is the least of what happens. Because for
many dogs, fat will lead to pancreatitis. I have a breed that has a
predisposition to it - for some dogs it doesn't take anything you would
consider high-fat to set it off. Would you like to explain to your kids
that you are not willing to shell out a couple of grand for hospital care to
get the dog over an attack? The first $1000 will get the dog in the door at
the emergency vet clinic and cover the first 24 hours of care. She'll
probably be there for close to a week. If she survives.
Do your kids know what foods the dog should not eat besides chocolate?
Because most dogs can actually handle small amounts of milk chocolate
without any problems.
The answer is that you are the grown-up. You decide what the dog gets to
eat and how much. My dogs don't even get to eat dog treats from other dog
people unless I approve it first.
No, a green bean on the floor isn't going to hurt the dog. But wouldn't you
actually prefer to have a dog who doesn't beg at the table? Having that dog
means that the rule has to be absolute. Think of it as an absolute rule for
the dog since you don't think your kids can handle that. Dogs understand
always and never.
> Because (at least in our house) if you did throw a basketball in the
> living room, you might be lucky to get 1 bounce out of it before something
> WOULD break. And, in fact, both kids have thrown stuff in the house
> and seen the immediate results.
And if instead of breaking something, it just missed hitting their aunt in
the head would they consider that reason not to do it?
> Um, removing the dog from the table area by crating is exactly what we
> ARE doing - and you jumped all over me when I said that was the
> preferred solution. Now, your advocating it? Now who's being 100%
> consistent?
I did not. That was the first - this is the second - post that I have made
discussing this. I never jumped all over you for choosing that.
> You seem to like making a lot of assumptions here. Is it really true that
> in your world, people regularly get rid of dogs because they have a hard
> time training them? Seems rather a defeatist attitude to me.
In my world, people housebreak their dogs. They don't expect for one single
second that ten year olds - no matter what promises they made - will be
responsible for housebreaking. Or nutrition. If this means tethering the
dog to you 24/7 so that she is never out of your sight and it means taking
the dog outside every fifteen minutes in a January snowstorm, they do it.
If this means making the rule that the children do not feed the dog
*anything* unless an adult has approved both the item and the amount, they
do it.
My last puppy was housebroken in January when I had the flu and could barely
get up off the couch for days. I knew that every time I didn't make it
outside with the puppy was going to extend the training period
exponentially. It was important that I not let the dog fail (pee in the
house). The goal was to never have to clean up a mess. It's been seven
years and I can't remember if we achieved it but I'm sure we were pretty
close. By the time I was over the flu, the dog was housebroken. If I had
said "Forget it. I'll deal with it when I feel better" it would have taken
much longer from when I started until he was safe in the house.
In my world, people are responsible for their dogs. Because dogs have
value - and not as training aides for your children.
Yes, my preference is that if people don't want that responsibility and
don't value their dogs, I would prefer that they find a home where that is
true.
Defeatist is your reaction. You can't tether the dog because she chews
through the leash. (Don't let her do that. She's only three feet away and
you can't stop her?) You can't make rules that the kids not do something
that will possibly hurt the dog - because kids will be kids and you want
them to learn that actions have consequences, dog's needs be damned.
You don't want this dog. Okay, you don't have to in order to still make
things work. But one of the adults in that household needs to be
responsible 100% for that dog. You're (not "your") not there all the time
so it appears that it will have to be your wife. Ideally, it would be that
you would at least help her when you are there.
What you are finding out is something that you thought you were teaching
your kids. Actions have consequences. And the lack of action also has
consequences. Unfortunately if you fail at training this dog, most of the
consequences happen to the dog. Stop saying "I can't because" or "my kids
won't" or "my wife won't". You asked people here - who have a whole lot of
collective wisdom and a huge amount of experience housebreaking dogs and
puppies, even ones who arrive with some issues - and then rather than take
the advice and either act on it or not, you kept coming back and telling us
why your situation was something that we wouldn't/didn't understand. We've
been there. We know what works. And we know what doesn't. Your situation
is not at all unique. And we are not all idiots about either dogs or kids.
Judy
Judy
> She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
> she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was
> begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
> was instead watching TV.
>
> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us an
> unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
Okay Ted. This story really eats at me. And you aren't going to like what
I'm going to say because it doesn't have anything to do with housebreaking
your dog. Listen. Don't listen. I'm still going to say it.
You took your ten year old son and put him in charge of something that he
did not know fully how to do. Since you and your wife don't seem totally
clear on what it takes to housebreak a dog, I think we can assume that your
son didn't magically acquire that knowledge on his own.
Rather than setting parameters ("You are watching the dog, not the TV"),
teaching him the skills ("Watch for her to get up and start wandering around
and sniffing") and then supervising and coaching him through it - as you
would if he were playing Little League ("Tommy - the dog is up and
sniffing"), you and your wife watched and were secretly pleased that he
failed at his task of watching the dog.
Your son failed and you were pleased. You set him up to fail. Way to
parent.
Note to other people with kids who want to get dogs:
When you go to a responsible breeder and they refuse to sell you a dog
because you have kids aged 6 and 10 (and they are aware through your
interview process that you expect the dog to belong to the kids), know that
Ted and his family are the reason you are turned down. Good breeders have
seen this too many times. They value their dogs and require that new owners
also value them. As dogs, as family members, not as teaching tools for
their kids.
A responsible breeder knows that a ten year old is going to be out of the
house, having the life that he should have at his age, long before the dog
is gone. The dog is sold to the parents, not to the kids. There are a lot
of things that a kid can learn from a dog but those are the bonuses of dog
ownership, not the reason.
Judy
Paul E. Schoen
> Hi All,
>
> Any suggestions on how to curb this would be most appreciated!
I have followed most of this discussion and I will just add my own two
cents worth. Most of the suggestions that have been made seem pretty
reasonable, and at least most of the responders, and you, have kept the
discussion open without too much exchange of blame, excuses, and
nitpicking. I have tried to do the same, but many of the regulars do not
want to hear "the other side of the story", so they have me filtered or
immediately attack whatever I say. Some have done a little of that with
you, and if you continue to argue about some of their advice, they may do
that with you.
If you wish, you can follow my experiences with my dog Muttley by checking
the archives or reading my www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley/MuttleyStory.htm.
It is mostly a series of posts on this newsgroup about the first year with
my dog.
But in short, Muttley is a large GSD/Mastiff? mix who was rescued from the
streets of a bad neighborhood in Baltimore at the age of about 1.5 years,
and his previous history is unknown. When I decided to take him in, I did
not want a dog, and he was very aggressive toward my cat. Much of the time
I had him, I kept him tethered outside (on a dreaded chain leash and choker
collar), and then a vinyl coated cable. I would allow him in the house, but
at first only on a leash, and also contained in my bedroom. When I allowed
him more freedom, he would pee in various parts of the house, which I think
was because of the cat (who mostly hid under the floor, or stayed outside).
Whenever I discovered his puddles, I would show him the mess, say "NO!",
and put him outside for a while.
After having him for four or five months, he seemed to learn that peeing in
the house was not acceptable. I still tethered him outside when I left the
house, but at some point he made it clear that he wanted to stay in.
Gradually I allowed him more freedom to roam the house while I was there,
and I also trusted him for increasing periods of time while I was away,
which eventually extended to 8-12 hours while I was at work. During this
time I felt as if he and I were bonding closer with each other, and he
seemed to identify the house as his "den". He only had one more "accident",
which happened when I had fed him a can of dog food just before leaving,
and I was gone for longer than usual, without having given him a longer
walk where he could poop. In fact, it took quite a while for him to poop
while we were on a walk, as he seemed to prefer doing it out back where I
still sometimes tethered him when he let me know he wanted to go out.
All dogs are different, and I have heard that a large part of housebreaking
is due to early training by the mother bitch, and of course later training
by humans and early environment. Also there are differences in breeds,
temperamant, and daily environment. But I think perhaps your dog has not
yet fully bonded with you and other family members as a member of the
"pack", and does not recognize the home as his "den". Dogs can pick up on
subtle emotions of family members and react in ways that might not be
desirable. If a dog does not feel truly wanted and loved, he or she might
act in some way to be removed from the situation.
Anyway, that is just my story with my dog. I also had another rescue dog in
the summer of 2007, a female I called "Lucky", and I did not have any
housebreaking issues with her, although I usually kept her crated so that
she and Muttley would not engage in rough play (or possible fighting),
especially while she was recuperating from her spay surgery. But I bonded
with her rather quickly, and she finally seemed to bond with me after about
two months, but in her best interests I surrendered her to adoption, where
she was adopted within 5 days. That was a difficult decision, but I can
hardly handle one big dog, much less two.
Good luck with your dog. And make sure you and your family members truly
give her a lot of loving attention and play so that she bonds with everyone
and feels secure and happy in her home.
Paul and Muttley
Paul E. Schoen
> In article <gh9j5s$mhj$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> sh...@panix.com (Melinda Shore) wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll confess to preferring nylon. My hands are beat to crap
>> anyway, and nylon is indestructible and comes in bright
>> colors (makes it easy to spot among the clutter). It is
>> rougher on the hands but as I said my hands are pretty
>> tough.
>
>
> Have you tried hemp?
I posted about the possible problems with hemp some time ago. If it is
subjected to moisture, it can rot from the inside out, and become
dangerously weak with no external signs until a strong tug might cause it
to break.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
But some sites make glowing claims for its durability:
http://www.hempfarm.org/Papers/Hemp_Facts.html
http://www.hemptraders.com/properties_of_hemp_hemp101.php
http://www.hemphasis.net/Clothing-Textiles/cloth.htm
Paul and Muttley
Ted Mittelstaedt
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:52:35 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:oe1ij4pju2tesihfc...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:28:09 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
>>> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:janet-19CDE7....@news.individual.net...
>>>>> In article <tvol06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
>>>>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>>>>Most people's kids, including our
>>>>own, are perfect little angels when over at OTHER people's homes.
>>>>They save their rotten behavior for their parents. But I can see this
>>>>argument is pointless. Either you have never had kids yourself, in
>>>>which case you simply don't know what your talking about, or your
>>>>one of those few parents who had docile kids who grew up to be
>>>>lawyers or dentists or something and take out their rebellion they never
>>>>had with you on their unfortunate clients, or at their weekly
>>>>therapist meeting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ted. I'm calling BULLSHIT here.
>>
>>How, exactly? Your saying I'm wrong then proceeding to follow with
>>a story supporting what I said? I don't follow.
>
>
> because to say that kids are terrors at home but good when out is
> bullshit.
>
OK, I'll accept that was a generalized statement. I'll amend it to say that
a LOT of kids that are good when at other people's homes, are hellions
when at their own home - and it's easy for many childless people to ASSUME
that just because the kids they meet are well behaved, that those same kids
are well behaved when in their own homes with their own parents.
> my kids were terrors whenever and wherever they wanted to be. the
> consequences were the same wherever they were.
>
> they didn't grow up to be perfect.
>
> basically you are saying because someone doesn't have kids or has
> perfect kids they have no clue about the shoes you walk in.
>
You have it backwards. I'm saying that when I run into someone who
swears that kids can be "trained" that it always seems to be a childless
person.
I really have nothing against people who choose to not have children -
I think that someone did a survey a number of years ago and found that
something like 50% of parents if they knew what they did AFTER having
kids they never would have had them. I do feel a bit sorry for such people
though, but that's just because I have kids.
Not every childless person cannot emphathize with parents, but I think
the majority of them really cannot.
> that's BULLSHIT.
>
>
>
>>> or teach your children some restraint.
>>>
>>
>>OK, so it's my fault I'm not teaching my kids restraint, but it's NOT
>>your fault that your 24 year old didn't learn restraint from you?
>
>
> NOT sure what part of EMOTIONALLY DISABLED you missed.
>
> I did the freaking best I could with my 24 year old who for a RAINMAN
> type person is doing the best he can.
>
> FWIW the 22 year old has it perfectly and the 16 yr old is learning it
> well. Considering I've only been her mom for 4 years she's doing
> GREAT....
>
I didn't miss the emotionally disabled part. Frankly, if you have an
emotionally
disabled kid who is 24 years old and who isn't:
a) dead
b) in jail
c) an alcoholic
d) homeless and sleeping in a gutter
then you have done a FANTASTIC job as a parent.
>
>
>>
>>> Sorry if my kid was sitting at the table and the dog was resting his
>>> head on the table doing puppy eyes I'd tell the dog "go lay down"
>>> (can't tell you how many meals early on my dogs spent doing their "sit
>>> on it exercise" which is dog on leash, leash under my butt, dog on
>>> "settle" (which is really a casual down in our house) on the floor
>>> next to my chair being ignored)
>>>
>>> my dogs heads hit the table (or in Hannah's case, paws like just
>>> happened as I'm typing) and they are told OFF and pushed away.
>>>
>>
>>We do all that, and she doesen't put her paws on the table. We don't
>>want her to START doing that, which is why crating is better for us.
>
>
> no you don't want her doing that and you don't want to crate her which
> is not training that's avoidance.
>
> what you want to do is TRAIN her not to jump on the table, TRAIN her
> (and the kids) not to eat from the table or feed from the table.
>
> TRAINING
> TRAINING
> TRAINING
>
>
> that's the key
>
One thing at a time. I'll work on that once the housebreaking is complete.
>
>>She has jumped on the table a few times when we had all left and there
>>was still food on the table - our bad, though, good incentive to make
>>sure the table is cleared before everyone leaves the kitchen.
>
>
> yep get a newspaper and smack yourself over the head.
>
> WE never leave the table with food on it... Heck I can't leave the
> counters with food on them. I can't leave anything less than 6 feet
> off the ground with anything enticing on it.
>
> My puppy on his rear legs can reach over 5 feet without a stretch....
>
In our house, in general my wife provides the dinner and I clean up
the kitchen. Almost always I clear the table - the times that the dog
got on the table where one of those times I walked out of the kitchen
for a few minutes, intending to come right back in.
>
>>
>>Wife will sit down to do something and if the leash is fabric the dog
>>will have it chewed through in about a minute - that's about how long
>>it took her when I tried tethering with the last leash. I personally
>>wouldn't
>
>
> Janet's suggestion of a steel cable sounds great...
> Harley has eaten three leashes in 6 weeks. he was tethered to me
> while I slept on the couch. He's just a tad younger than your dog....
> I feel your pain. I don't tether with my leather leashes.
>
> IF I was still tethering (we are not he's no longer in need of it) I
> would be using the steel cable as Janet suggested. they are flexible
> they are light weight and they are fairly indestructible.
>
>
>>have a problem using the chain leash and doing this - but that's me.
>>I can't force my wife to do this, and knowing her I highly doubt that
>>she would do it.
>
> so she's not on board with doing everything necessary to housebreak
> this new family member?
>
No, she isn't on board with the tethering, I'm afraid.
Actually, today I did tether the dog to myself for the day to see how it
would
work out. She didn't pee when tethered. She DID however pee on the
floor twice - both times when off the tether.
The first time was immediately after coming in from outside when she had
just peed twice outside - I took her off the outside lead to switch her to
the
inside lead (long story about why I had to use a different outside lead
which I won't get into) and looked away for 5 minutes and when I went to
get her she had peed.
The second time was after I gave her a bath, and she was running through
the house without her collar. I saw her head to the "pee corner" and start
to squat - I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and scolded her severly.
I've decided though, that next week I'm going to have a UA done at the
vets. The business of her peeing right after coming inside - and she didn't
pee in the usual spot, she peed in a traffic area and it was not a lot of
pee -
that has me bothered. Also, when I take her outside
to pee she tends to pee 2 -3 times even during a short 4 minute walk to the
end of the block. I would think that if she had a full bladder and really
needed
to "go" that she would empty her entire bladder at once.
But anyway, as far as the feasibility of tethering in our house, it is
pretty
difficult. For example today I was working with my daughter to pick up
her room - we usually only manage to get this done once a week, and during
the week she tends to throw all her toys on the floor of her room - and
the dog was busy grabbing and trying to eat all manner of junk off the
floor - small 2-3 inch plastic toys, little bits of paper, beads, cotton
balls, you name it. I must have pulled stuff out of her mouth at least
a dozen times.
>
>>And the times I am home, the peeing is generally not
>>a problem. As for tethering to an inanimate object, I see little
>>difference
>
> if my dogs were tethered to an inanimate object it would be the bed
> I'm sleeping in.
>
> I would not tether to something I was not actively sitting or laying
> on.
>
>
>
>>between doing this with a short leash and crating - and doing it with a
>>long chain isn't feasible and something like a long plastic-coated cable
>>would
>>just let her go into a corner and pee.
>
> define LONG? six feet doubled through a belt loop leaves 3 feet for
> the pup... seems short to me.
>
Long is like 20 feet.
Well that's what I've been doing with Ruby also, but I am not as agressive
about taking her out as you, which is probably part of the problem - but I'm
not here except
in the evenings and weekends. I also started using food treats to get her
to pee outside (along with the command word "potty") which works VERY
well - she is extremely food motivated. I use bits of broken up dog
biscuits,
this dog is almost wild about different foods. Today she found a fresh
coconut half in the off-leash area of the park (God knows how in the heck
that got there)
and was running around carrying it in her mouth and eating the coconut white
when she could with great relish. Every time I came after her to take it
she
would run away, so I finally gave up.
I can get her to pee pretty reliably when outside now.
Hee Hee...
>
>
>>>
>>
>>We don't have an enzyme cleaner yet, which is why I asked for
>>suggestions of one - and I'll be picking one up tomorrow for
>>sure. But I'm not convinced she is trying to "save up" so that
>>she can pee in that area - the area isn't "enticing" her to pee.
>
> ah no... it's not ENTICING HER TO PEE but it is calling her back to
> the same area telling her that it smells like pee (to her even if it
> does not smell like it to you) so it must be a good place to pee.
>
>
>>I think rather that she feels the need to pee, and goes to that
>>area because she's peed there before rather than coming to
>>get one of us and asking to go out. It's not like she is peeing in
>>the exact same spot - she has a fairly large radius of several feet
>>in the general area, and she hasn't always peed in that general area,
>>she's peed in a few other places in the house.
>
> at that's the key
>
> IF she has not learned to tell you she has to pee yet
That is I think one of the key problems with her. The other is that we
haven't
managed to catch her enough times "in the act" of peeing inside and scolding
her
when catching her, so she hasn't yet created a strong enough negative
association
with peeing inside.
> then you have to
> watch her CONSTANTLY and if she SNIFFS even once OUT SHE GOES...
>
> dog sniffs
> person asks in an excited voice "<puppy's name> do you have to pee,
> do you wanna go OUT?"
>
> and OUT goes the puppy with the person saying
>
> "go pee-pee (or whatever the command you use is) <puppy's name>
>
> and you say that till puppy pees at which time the person says
>
> "good pee-pee, good <puppy's name> good pee-pee" all excited and
> praising. you feel like a total MORON... getting all excited about
> pee and poo....
>
OK, good advice.
> didn't you get excited when the kid peed in the potty the first time?
> same thing....
>
Well, both our kids we decided to let them self-train on going potty,
we did not push them to do it in any way, shape or form.
The idea being that you would assume that the kid would dislike sitting
in their own poop and want to train. That did work with both our kids,
although they did probably take longer than a lot of kids, perhaps. In
fact, we did not use "kid potties" since both my wife and I think those
things are disgusting - both trained on the toilet. So, there wasn't a
huge hue and cry the first time they peed in the potty. OTOH we
also didn't have to deal with weeks or months of soiled underpants.
When they graduated from pull-up diapers to underpants we only had
one or 2 accidents in the underpants the first couple days, then both
were perfectly trained - and no "skid marks" in the underpants either.
>
>
>>
>>If the area were completely cleansed with the proper cleaner I do
>>not think it would stop her peeing in the house - she would just
>>pee somewhere else. Like someone said, I think the real problem is
>>that she just hasn't gotten the hint yet that peeing in the house is
>>not acceptable.
>
> nope she has not.
> but it HELPS if she can't smell the pee....
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Proper ownership of a dog is something only an adult can handle.
>>>
>>> Kids can be a part of it.
>>> even at 16 the necessary adult wiring is not quite connected....
>>>
>>
>>Exactly as I have been arguing to Judy.
>
> but yet you expect the kid to be responsible for the dog.... that
> works well ONCE The dog is trained... but NOT when you are training
> the dog.
>
> I would NOT expect my 16 yr old babysitter to know how to toilet train
> my toddler. I'd put the kid back in diapers when I went out...
>
Well, that analogy didn't apply to us since both kids never went back to
pull-up diapers once they went to underpants. The day after each of them
went to underpants the bag of pull-ups started collecting dust.
>>
>>>
>>> ten years old is too young to expect them to be the responsible party
>>> for the dog.
>>>
>>
>>But not too young to expect them to have SOME responsibility for the dog.
>
> no not too young to be somewhat responsible for a TRAINED dog or for
> picking up the poop or for putting down the food bowl or for hanging
> up the leash and training collar...
>
> BUT NOT for housebreaking.
>
>
>>> Accept that you came for help and you don't like what you are being
>>> told.
>>>
>>
>>That isn't true. I DO like a LOT of what I've read. Not all of it, but
>>I think anyone must be a bit arrogant to think that every single thing
>>they suggest is going to be taken as gospel. Frankly if every one of the
>>great people on this forum completely agreed with each other 100%,
>>there'd be no postings at all - you wouldn't need to bother to post since
>>you would already know the answer.
>
> the folks here posting post because they want to help.
>
> 6 years ago was a bit different. what's left now are the core folks
> that were here helping then and they are all pretty much in
> agreement on how to housebreak a dog....
>
>
> I hope you find what works for you, your dog and your family. Dogs
> are a wonderful part of the family.
> Best Wishes,
>
> Nessa
Thanks. By the way, in case your interested her are some pics:
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby3.jpg
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:i95n06...@news.ipinc.net...
>> She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when
>> she peed on the floor again - at the time, our oldest kid (the one who
>> was
>> begging for a dog the last 4 years) was supposed to be watching her, but
>> was instead watching TV.
>>
>> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us
>> an
>> unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was housebroken,
>> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
>
> Okay Ted. This story really eats at me. And you aren't going to like
> what I'm going to say because it doesn't have anything to do with
> housebreaking your dog. Listen. Don't listen. I'm still going to say
> it.
>
> You took your ten year old son and put him in charge of something that he
> did not know fully how to do. Since you and your wife don't seem totally
> clear on what it takes to housebreak a dog, I think we can assume that
> your son didn't magically acquire that knowledge on his own.
>
> Rather than setting parameters ("You are watching the dog, not the TV"),
We told him that.
> teaching him the skills ("Watch for her to get up and start wandering
> around and sniffing")
We told him that also.
> and then supervising and coaching him through it - as you would if he were
> playing Little League ("Tommy - the dog is up and sniffing"),
We did this on prior occasions with him. Multiple times.
> you and your wife watched
No, we didn't watch. We found out about it after she peed. We assumed
that after multiple times of having our son watch the dog with us watching
him,
that he would be able to do it on his own. This is what I was getting at
when I said that
eventually you have to allow your kids to fail, and not be a "helicopter
parent"
> and were secretly pleased that he failed at his task of watching the dog.
>
No. We were secretly pleased that we could take away the TV with an
ironclad explanation because he so obviously failed. We were not pleased
that he failed.
Obviously, we could have made him turn off the TV, guessing that he
wouldn't be able to watch TV and watch the dog at the same time. But
the key here is that HE THOUGHT that he could watch TV and watch
the dog at the same time. If we force the issue by not allowing him to find
out that he CAN'T do this - by not allowing him to watch TV -
then all we do is make him resentful that we shut off the TV and he would
still continue to believe that he could in fact watch TV and watch the dog
at the same time.
For him to learn that he can't watch TV and watch the dog at the same time
we had to allow him to find out that he couldn't do it - by letting him
choose
to turn on the TV when he was supposed to be watching the dog and letting
the dog have an accident. Then we have proof staring him in his face that
no, he's not able to watch TV and the dog at the same time.
It's like the kid that comes home and insists that he can watch his favorite
TV show and do his homework at the same time. As a parent you can
choose one of two paths. You can tell him NO tv and do your homework,
or you can say OK, go ahead, and let him get the F on the math test.
Sometimes, in fact, the kid will surprise you and be able to watch TV
and get the A on the math test.
> Your son failed and you were pleased. You set him up to fail. Way to
> parent.
>
Sometimes "setting them up to fail" is a more effective way to teach.
You just make sure that what you set them up to fail on, isn't particularly
important in the grand scheme of things. Kids make dumb assumptions
just like adults.
I would say in fact, that when Al Gore allowed George Bush to steal
the 2000 election by choosing not to fight it, that he set the entire
country
up to fail. Al made a famous quote: "If he wants it that bad, let him have
it"
Gore knew, as most intelligent people, that the Republicans would destroy
the country. But, in 2000, there were still too many idiots in the country
that still believed all the crapola spewing from the conservatives. It took
allowing the cons to really really screw up the country before -finally- all
the rednecks and idiots learned that the Republicans were failures and
came on board with the intelligent people.
You see, this works for adults, too.
> Note to other people with kids who want to get dogs:
>
> When you go to a responsible breeder and they refuse to sell you a dog
> because you have kids aged 6 and 10 (and they are aware through your
> interview process that you expect the dog to belong to the kids), know
> that Ted and his family are the reason you are turned down. Good breeders
> have seen this too many times. They value their dogs and require that new
> owners also value them. As dogs, as family members, not as teaching tools
> for their kids.
>
> A responsible breeder knows that a ten year old is going to be out of the
> house, having the life that he should have at his age, long before the dog
> is gone.
It entirely depends on the kid. There are some kids that at 10 years old
CAN
take care of the dog - some better even than the parents. And as a parent
you
sometimes really don't know if your kids is one of those kids.
You don't do any favors to your kid when you don't allow him to try things.
And as a breeder you are uniquely UNQUALIFIED to know if that family's
kids are able to do it or not.
The dog is sold to the parents, not to the kids. There are a lot
> of things that a kid can learn from a dog but those are the bonuses of dog
> ownership, not the reason.
>
If you really cared to know, if parents came in expecting the dog to be the
kids dog, then you would interview the kids themselves and draw your
conclusions as a result of that interview - you would not just do what your
doing and ASSUME that all children aren't qualified to care for a dog.
Ted
> Judy
Nessa
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:ag0kj4tsh524khhqe...@4ax.com...
>
> I'll amend it to say that
>a LOT of kids that are good when at other people's homes, are hellions
>when at their own home - and it's easy for many childless people to ASSUME
>that just because the kids they meet are well behaved, that those same kids
>are well behaved when in their own homes with their own parents.
maybe SOME childless people. People who have very little experience
with life or children but I doubt in this day and age that even
CHILDLESS people assume children are perfect all the time.
>You have it backwards. I'm saying that when I run into someone who
>swears that kids can be "trained" that it always seems to be a childless
>person.
THREE Kids here. survived TEEN with two boys and currently doing TEEN
with a GIRL
you betcha kids can be trained.
they live up to their expectations.
IF at ten and six you think kids can't be trained. I worry about the
teen years in your house.
just like with dogs you train your kids to mind when they are small
then when they turn in to teen terrors, their behavior while
rebellious is not nearly as bad as if they had no rules or poor
training.
Yes teens break the rules. We've had issues, but my daughter has her
chores, knows the rules and knows the consequences of breaking the
rules.
>
>Not every childless person cannot emphathize with parents, but I think
>the majority of them really cannot.
our CBC friends are GREAT with the kids. the fact that they choose
NOT to have kids for whatever reason does not preclude them from being
awesome guides for my kids.
my daughter has two sets of our friends both are CBC but they get it.
and they "parent" her too.
>
>I didn't miss the emotionally disabled part. Frankly, if you have an
>emotionally
>disabled kid who is 24 years old and who isn't:
>
>a) dead
>b) in jail
>c) an alcoholic
>d) homeless and sleeping in a gutter
he's in a group home.
there are some problems but he's not murdered anyone yet and we've not
killed him either.
>
>then you have done a FANTASTIC job as a parent.
thank you but we owe a lot of it to his wonderful stepmom....
>> what you want to do is TRAIN her not to jump on the table, TRAIN her
>> (and the kids) not to eat from the table or feed from the table.
>>
>> TRAINING
>> TRAINING
>> TRAINING
>>
>>
>> that's the key
>>
>
>One thing at a time. I'll work on that once the housebreaking is complete.
it's all a package deal.
HOUSEBREAKING IS TRAINING.... it's part of it.
you just do it all as needed.
I admit I don't work with my dogs on 'concentrated' training (and I
should) but they have to sit or down for all treats
they have to know "off" for day to day living
they know STAND for grooming (well Harley does)
they know wait when I go out a door and are coming with me and STAY
when I go out a door and they have to wait for me to return
they know "mommy is going out where do you go" means "go crate"
they also know "go crate" means go crate....
they know "puppies dinner" means come to the kitchen and sit for your
meds so mom can feed you
they know "bedtime potty" means last out... go out pee come back.. NO
PLAY no bitey face....
they know MOVE means move.
these are done with very little practice. IF I practiced half as
much as I should they would be perfect dogs...
>In our house, in general my wife provides the dinner and I clean up
>the kitchen. Almost always I clear the table - the times that the dog
>got on the table where one of those times I walked out of the kitchen
>for a few minutes, intending to come right back in.
>
sounds much like the arrangement here only DH conned girl child into
doing the clean up (yes I have a 16 yr old that willingly cleans the
kitchen up after dinner is prepped--now THAT'S TRAINING)
We eat in the dinning room. we can leave stuff on the table and
someone keeps an eye on it. IF a dog starts sniffing the table...
they get a verbal command to stop (and they do)
until they did it on verbal command they were physically removed...
told OFF and they were being TRAINED.
>
>No, she isn't on board with the tethering, I'm afraid.
and since you're not the one home with the dog I fear you will have a
problem.
>
>Actually, today I did tether the dog to myself for the day to see how it
>would
>work out. She didn't pee when tethered. She DID however pee on the
>floor twice - both times when off the tether.
>The first time was immediately after coming in from outside when she had
>just peed twice outside - I took her off the outside lead to switch her to
>the
this needs to be addressed by someone with more experience in this
area than I. Personally if she had just peed outside and then peed as
soon as she came in the first thing you need to do is rule out UTI
take a disposable pie plate. collect her pee. transfer to container
and take it to the vet for culture.
>inside lead (long story about why I had to use a different outside lead
>which I won't get into) and looked away for 5 minutes and when I went to
>get her she had peed.
I have different outside leads and inside leads... I snap the inside
lead on then snap the outside one off (when they are in tethered mode)
>
>The second time was after I gave her a bath, and she was running through
>the house without her collar. I saw her head to the "pee corner" and start
>to squat - I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and scolded her severly.
ok
I would NOT scold SEVERELY
I would say NO and I would take her outside and tell her "go pee pee"
and yes I would do it without the collar... I'd collar her as soon as
I could outside...
SCOLDING her but NOT showing her what the right thing to do is,
doesn't really help her.
>
>I've decided though, that next week I'm going to have a UA done at the
>vets. The business of her peeing right after coming inside - and she didn't
>pee in the usual spot, she peed in a traffic area and it was not a lot of
>pee -
could be UTI could be submissive peeing.
>that has me bothered. Also, when I take her outside
>to pee she tends to pee 2 -3 times even during a short 4 minute walk to the
>end of the block. I would think that if she had a full bladder and really
>needed
>to "go" that she would empty her entire bladder at once.
she could be Marking. Hannah has ONE long pee when they have to go
then if we are walking she has LOTS of little ones.
Harley does not mark. he pees once and he's done.
>
>But anyway, as far as the feasibility of tethering in our house, it is
>pretty
>difficult. For example today I was working with my daughter to pick up
>her room - we usually only manage to get this done once a week, and during
>the week she tends to throw all her toys on the floor of her room - and
>the dog was busy grabbing and trying to eat all manner of junk off the
>floor - small 2-3 inch plastic toys, little bits of paper, beads, cotton
>balls, you name it. I must have pulled stuff out of her mouth at least
>a dozen times.
CRATE her then... clearly she's not safe in your daughter's room
(nothing is safe in MY daughter's room) so in this case if there is
no one appropriate to watch the pup, I'd crate her. that's what
crates are for. put the dog in the crate when you can't supervise the
dog
>
>Long is like 20 feet.
ah I wouldn't go over 6 feet when teaching housebreaking via tether.
maybe 4 feet even.
>> it's still about being aware of what the dog is up to...
>>
>> IF he's not happily chewing something (a toy of his)
>> or playing with the other dog
>> or sleeping at my feet
>> he's looking to do something and that MIGHT mean he has to potty so
>> OUT we go....
>>
>
>Well that's what I've been doing with Ruby also, but I am not as agressive
>about taking her out as you, which is probably part of the problem - but I'm
>not here excep tin the evenings and weekends.
so then I assume wife is home with her? and wife won't get on board
with this training? did wife not really want the dog either? ALL
adults in the house have to be on board with the rules. I have major
problems with my husband not giving a command and making the dogs
comply so that Hannah thinks she can leisurely sit her tush down after
2 or three times of being told.
my husband says 'how come she sits for you right away"
CAUSE I DEMAND IT. dogs are not stupid...
> I also started using food treats to get her
>to pee outside (along with the command word "potty") which works VERY
>well - she is extremely food motivated. I use bits of broken up dog
>biscuits,
>this dog is almost wild about different foods. Today she found a fresh
>coconut half in the off-leash area of the park (God knows how in the heck
>that got there)
>and was running around carrying it in her mouth and eating the coconut white
>when she could with great relish. Every time I came after her to take it
>she
>would run away, so I finally gave up.
several issues here.
1. I never let my dogs eat what they find. (carry treats if she had
not learned "leave it" or "drop it" and TRADE for their found treat)
you don't know what it is they are eating. they could be allergic. it
could be poisoned. it could be something dogs will die from (did you
know dogs can't eat onions or chocolate?)
2. NEVER chase a dog. they see it as a game.
when my dogs get away from me and they don't have a good recall, I
say "bye Hannah" and run in the opposite direction
3. never give up. that just teaches the dog that she has to persevere
and she will get what she wants.
>
>I can get her to pee pretty reliably when outside now.
that's good now we just have to figure out how to stop her from peeing
in the house.
>> IF she has not learned to tell you she has to pee yet
>
>That is I think one of the key problems with her. The other is that we
>haven't
>managed to catch her enough times "in the act" of peeing inside and scolding
>her
>when catching her, so she hasn't yet created a strong enough negative
>association
>with peeing inside.
you should not have to "catch her" at all. MOST folks here can
housebreak a dog without a single accident.
last night my hubby and I were in the living room watching TV (it was
late) and I had put the dogs out for their last pee already.
we came in and Harley was a bit restless. I was fine with that till
he headed UP THE STAIRS.... (NOT normal behavior for my Velcro dog)
and you bet I got my fat butt up and went and called him
and I know that I had ONE incident where he went upstairs to poop
without my knowledge (I found it later when it was too late to even
address it with him) and I said
"Harley do you have to poop? Let's go outside and poop come one"
and we went out and YES he had to poop.
so a dog's signals are NOT always OUR signals.
I've only had Harley 8 weeks. he's an emotional basket case. just
opening the fridge can scare him... and he's sick (with parasites we
are working on that)
I am hoping that eventually he will have easily readable signals.
Hannah at 6 1/2 never had to learn signals... her older (now
deceased) dog brother knew to scratch at the door to go out and she
just went with him.
so when she barks at me... that's her signal. I'm not thrilled about
it but at least she tells me.
>
>> didn't you get excited when the kid peed in the potty the first time?
>> same thing....
>>
>
>Well, both our kids we decided to let them self-train on going potty,
>we did not push them to do it in any way, shape or form.
let me tell you about the younger son he was barely 3 I had just
weaned him, moved out of our large home, left his father, put him in
daycare (after being a stay at home mom his entire life) and gotten
rid of his beloved dog... there was NO way I was going to toilet
train this child.
he wakes up one morning with a dry diaper....
and I told him what a good boy he was and asked if he wanted to pee in
the potty. He walked to the regular toilet and peed in it.
then I told him to lay down and I'd put his diaper on (this was before
they invented pull ups) and he told me "I no wear a diaper"
and HE NEVER DID again (and we had no accidents)
but you better believe when he peed in the toilet I praised him.
and I never expected his day car provider to do my job (toilet train
him) but I did expect his father to do the same job as I did.
>>
>> but yet you expect the kid to be responsible for the dog.... that
>> works well ONCE The dog is trained... but NOT when you are training
>> the dog.
>>
>> I would NOT expect my 16 yr old babysitter to know how to toilet train
>> my toddler. I'd put the kid back in diapers when I went out...
>>
>
>Well, that analogy didn't apply to us since both kids never went back to
>pull-up diapers once they went to underpants. The day after each of them
>went to underpants the bag of pull-ups started collecting dust.
I had tons of diapers to donate to the day care. we had no such
thing as pull ups.
my kids went directly to underpants.
and you miss the point of the analogy....
you need to NOT expect the children to do YOUR JOB in housebreaking
the dog.
>Thanks. By the way, in case your interested her are some pics:
>
>http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby1.jpg
>http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby2.jpg
>http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/fampics/ruby3.jpg
>
She's beautiful. she looks like my niece Bella.
Nessa
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
>news:6pvf91F...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> Rather than setting parameters ("You are watching the dog, not the TV"),
>
>We told him that.
EXACTLY what did you tell him?
"watch the dog"
is very different from
"we are housebreaking this dog and we need you to help us and you need
to watch her very carefully and anytime she sniffs you need to grab
her leash (which should be on her) and tell her "let's go potty
outside" and TAKE HER OUT."
and then Making sure he does it the first couple of times.
basically you watch the kid watch the dog...
>
>> teaching him the skills ("Watch for her to get up and start wandering
>> around and sniffing")
>
>We told him that also.
did you coach him on it the first time she got up to sniff? maybe he
defines get up and sniff around differently than you do?
"
I know for me with a dog that is still regularly peeing in the house.
if the dog so much as sniffs ONCE, out they go. if they are holding
it they get a bit more leeway.
so how do you define Sniff around vs how does your child define it?
>
>> and then supervising and coaching him through it - as you would if he were
>> playing Little League ("Tommy - the dog is up and sniffing"),
>
>We did this on prior occasions with him. Multiple times.
in what manner?
ever heard of "train the trainer"?
I can tell my kids the same thing over and over but until I show them
and physically walk them through it they may not get it.
and even then a child may need multiple repetitions to get it.
(similar to a dog)
>
>> you and your wife watched
>
>No, we didn't watch. We found out about it after she peed. We assumed
>that after multiple times of having our son watch the dog with us watching
>him,
>that he would be able to do it on his own. This is what I was getting at
>when I said that
>eventually you have to allow your kids to fail, and not be a "helicopter
>parent"
but in this case you are not being a helicopter PARENT, you are
housebreaking a DOG.
You really can not and should not use the dog to try to teach the
child. this is not good for the dog and in this case YOUR dog has to
come first.
and yes this is YOUR dog. YOU are the responsible party.
>
>Obviously, we could have made him turn off the TV, guessing that he
>wouldn't be able to watch TV and watch the dog at the same time. But
>the key here is that HE THOUGHT that he could watch TV and watch
>the dog at the same time. If we force the issue by not allowing him to find
>out that he CAN'T do this - by not allowing him to watch TV -
>then all we do is make him resentful that we shut off the TV and he would
>still continue to believe that he could in fact watch TV and watch the dog
>at the same time.
Why is it his responsibility to housebreak this dog?
>
>For him to learn that he can't watch TV and watch the dog at the same time
>we had to allow him to find out that he couldn't do it - by letting him
>choose
by allowing the dog to fail. EVERY TIME this dog pees in the house
you take two steps back in housebreaking.
Trust me your kid is learning NOTHING but that dogs are a PITA.
>Sometimes "setting them up to fail" is a more effective way to teach.
so the dog is a teaching tool for the child?
>You just make sure that what you set them up to fail on, isn't particularly
>important in the grand scheme of things. Kids make dumb assumptions
>just like adults.
and one you are making here is that the kid can and should be
responsible for something very adult as Housebreaking.
>
>It entirely depends on the kid. There are some kids that at 10 years old
>CAN
>take care of the dog - some better even than the parents. And as a parent
>you
>sometimes really don't know if your kids is one of those kids.
clearly yours is not. now what?
>
>You don't do any favors to your kid when you don't allow him to try things.
>And as a breeder you are uniquely UNQUALIFIED to know if that family's
>kids are able to do it or not.
I would not trust housebreaking my dog to my 16 year old.
Housebreaking a dog is a full time job (it's short term if done
properly).
I"m not a breeder but I can tell you that there are good reasons dogs
are not placed in homes with small children. Wise reasons.
And I really truly think that any parent getting a dog to teach a
child responsibility by expecting them to take on the housebreaking of
the dog (especially a shelter dog with an unknown history) should be
denied the dog.
But then I doubt any shelter is going to ask "do you plan to use this
dog as a tool to attempt to teach your child responsibility?"
dogs are great companions once they are trained. then kids and
reinforce the training.
Kids cannot and should not be expected to do the training.
>
> The dog is sold to the parents, not to the kids. There are a lot
>> of things that a kid can learn from a dog but those are the bonuses of dog
>> ownership, not the reason.
>>
>
>If you really cared to know, if parents came in expecting the dog to be the
>kids dog, then you would interview the kids themselves and draw your
>conclusions as a result of that interview - you would not just do what your
>doing and ASSUME that all children aren't qualified to care for a dog.
so if I asked YOU how you were going to care for the dog what would
YOU have said?
you weren't prepared either. if you were you would not be seeking
help. the dog would be housebroken.
when as an adult 6 years ago I got my dog, I was NOT prepared for a
dog that did NOT want to housebreak. I was NOT prepared for a dog
that was large and in charge my last dog as an adult was readily
housebroken, easily trained and delightful.
My last dog was not. He had physical problems that did not get picked
up for nearly 2 years... I could not housebreak him.
I did not give him up because I knew he would never find a home that
could deal with his inability to comply.
this time I got a dog and after the experience of housebreaking and
training Bagel, I knew what to do.
I came back here because I was excited to have a new puppy. My first
purebred dog. My first formally rescued dog. MY first SHY dog.
So I have no experience with a shy dog and I need help with that.
but I know how to housebreak a dog.
I know how to teach a dog to comply with commands.
I know how to figure out if my dog is too fat or too thin
I LEARNED these things over the years of having other dogs and hanging
out with awesome dog people (thanks to Sarah and Janet for making me a
great dog mom)
When you got this dog did they ask you how you planned to train the
dog? shelters don't care.
Did they ask you if you knew how to housebreak a difficult dog? what
would you have said?
would your plan have worked?
my plan for dog life did not work with Bagel. my plan changed. It
morphed and grew and matured.
my plan for dog life is a lot different with Harley than it was with
Bagel but there's a LOT less changing because I had a lot more
experience.
I am so sorry but expecting a ten year old child to be able to assist
in the housebreaking of a dog is unreasonable.
Expecting a ten year old child to clean up after a dog, feed a dog on
a regular diet (not a special diet) and put the dog out AFTER the dog
is trained by an adult is more than reasonable.
>
>Ted
>
>> Judy
Ted Mittelstaedt
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:53:58 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:ag0kj4tsh524khhqe...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>>
>> I'll amend it to say that
>>a LOT of kids that are good when at other people's homes, are hellions
>>when at their own home - and it's easy for many childless people to ASSUME
>>that just because the kids they meet are well behaved, that those same
>>kids
>>are well behaved when in their own homes with their own parents.
>
>
> maybe SOME childless people. People who have very little experience
> with life or children but I doubt in this day and age that even
> CHILDLESS people assume children are perfect all the time.
>
>
>>You have it backwards. I'm saying that when I run into someone who
>>swears that kids can be "trained" that it always seems to be a childless
>>person.
>
> THREE Kids here. survived TEEN with two boys and currently doing TEEN
> with a GIRL
>
> you betcha kids can be trained.
>
Like Sarah Palin's daughter, yep! ;-)
> they live up to their expectations.
>
And yet in an earlier post you said you still have to get after your 16 year
old to take the dog out/scoop the dog/etc.
> IF at ten and six you think kids can't be trained. I worry about the
> teen years in your house.
>
> just like with dogs you train your kids to mind when they are small
> then when they turn in to teen terrors, their behavior while
> rebellious is not nearly as bad as if they had no rules or poor
> training.
>
> Yes teens break the rules. We've had issues, but my daughter has her
> chores, knows the rules and knows the consequences of breaking the
> rules.
>
But that still does not get her to scoop the yard every time?
She had. I was the one to take her outside and I watched her pee twice,
then brought her in about 2 minutes later - and 20 seconds later there's a
spot on the carpet. For a second I had thought one of the kids had spilled
water.
> take a disposable pie plate. collect her pee. transfer to container
> and take it to the vet for culture.
>
Good idea about the pie plate.
>>inside lead (long story about why I had to use a different outside lead
>>which I won't get into) and looked away for 5 minutes and when I went to
>>get her she had peed.
>
> I have different outside leads and inside leads... I snap the inside
> lead on then snap the outside one off (when they are in tethered mode)
>
That would be the obvious way to do it, yes. :-)
If the UA comes up nothing then I'll put it down to marking. But at this
point I'm not going to make any assumptions.
>
>>
>>But anyway, as far as the feasibility of tethering in our house, it is
>>pretty
>>difficult. For example today I was working with my daughter to pick up
>>her room - we usually only manage to get this done once a week, and during
>>the week she tends to throw all her toys on the floor of her room - and
>>the dog was busy grabbing and trying to eat all manner of junk off the
>>floor - small 2-3 inch plastic toys, little bits of paper, beads, cotton
>>balls, you name it. I must have pulled stuff out of her mouth at least
>>a dozen times.
>
> CRATE her then... clearly she's not safe in your daughter's room
> (nothing is safe in MY daughter's room) so in this case if there is
> no one appropriate to watch the pup, I'd crate her. that's what
> crates are for. put the dog in the crate when you can't supervise the
> dog
>
I nearly did. I hadn't expected her going after all the little bits of junk
on
the floor and the plastic toys and such. That isn't normal behavior for
her, it's not like she walks through the house and as soon as she sees a
small toy she grabs it. If I had thought she was going to do that I would
have crated her.
>
>
>>
>>Long is like 20 feet.
>
> ah I wouldn't go over 6 feet when teaching housebreaking via tether.
> maybe 4 feet even.
>
The chain I used for the tethering is about 5 feet long.
>
>>> it's still about being aware of what the dog is up to...
>>>
>>> IF he's not happily chewing something (a toy of his)
>>> or playing with the other dog
>>> or sleeping at my feet
>>> he's looking to do something and that MIGHT mean he has to potty so
>>> OUT we go....
>>>
>>
>>Well that's what I've been doing with Ruby also, but I am not as agressive
>>about taking her out as you, which is probably part of the problem - but
>>I'm
>>not here excep tin the evenings and weekends.
>
> so then I assume wife is home with her? and wife won't get on board
> with this training?
We both expected the dog to be housebroken when we got her. (and
her paperwork did say she was) In retrospect, though, it was an obvious
con job - my guess is that the shelter probably says just about all of their
dogs are housebroken. That kind of thing doesen't really bother me too
much - my approach to these kinds of problems is to figure them out. That's
why I posted here in the first place, after all. Usenet has a lot of
oysters
but not all of them are without perls, so that's why I'm still shucking
oysters.
My wife OTOH is less patient than I am - she is the type that will flip out
when her car breaks down and is sitting for a day while I wait for the part
to come in to fix it - never mind that most of the other car owners with the
same problem are likely stuck without a car for 3 days while theirs is
sitting
in a garage waiting for a mechanic to get to it. It's going to be difficult
enough
to get her to do even the obvious stuff.
For example today we go to church in separate cars and she comes back home
first, I come back 10 minutes after her. I walk in the house and there's
the dog
standing in the middle of the floor, out of her crate. Lovely. No pee on
the
floor, which was surprising, but a nice big poop in the usual spot. "Who
let
the dog out of the crate" I ask. "I did" she says. "Did you take her
outside when you let
her out?" I say. "No, why, did she make a mess?" OK, so the dog has been
in the crate for the last 2.5 hours. Of course she needed to go out!
Arrrggggh!
> did wife not really want the dog either?
She was the one that suggested we go look at dogs in the first place. I
think the real problem is the last dog she had when she was younger -
a cocker spaniel, she forgot whatever training her parents had to do with
it - if they even did any. Perhaps they got it fully housebroken. It died
at probably age 17 when she was in her 20's, a few years after we met.
In fact, I was the one who held the dog when the vet injected the drug
to euthanize it, she and her mother couldn't deal with that and left at the
last minute. Probably the last 5-6 years of it's life it did the typical
older
dog routine of a few walks now and then and mostly laying around sleeping.
I think the issue is one of expectations, my wife does not deal easily with
things that go differently than what she expected they would. She was
not pleased with me when I hinted to her that this might be her problem,
incidentally.
> ALL
> adults in the house have to be on board with the rules. I have major
> problems with my husband not giving a command and making the dogs
> comply so that Hannah thinks she can leisurely sit her tush down after
> 2 or three times of being told.
>
> my husband says 'how come she sits for you right away"
>
> CAUSE I DEMAND IT. dogs are not stupid...
>
Your probably the alpha leader in the pack. If your dog sees your
husband as equal to her, then she is probably observing his obedience
to you, and copying that when he gives her a command, eh? ;-)
>> I also started using food treats to get her
>>to pee outside (along with the command word "potty") which works VERY
>>well - she is extremely food motivated. I use bits of broken up dog
>>biscuits,
>>this dog is almost wild about different foods. Today she found a fresh
>>coconut half in the off-leash area of the park (God knows how in the heck
>>that got there)
>>and was running around carrying it in her mouth and eating the coconut
>>white
>>when she could with great relish. Every time I came after her to take it
>>she
>>would run away, so I finally gave up.
>
> several issues here.
>
> 1. I never let my dogs eat what they find. (carry treats if she had
> not learned "leave it" or "drop it" and TRADE for their found treat)
> you don't know what it is they are eating. they could be allergic. it
> could be poisoned. it could be something dogs will die from (did you
> know dogs can't eat onions or chocolate?)
>
I know about this one, and I don't want a dog eating something it finds
either, for those reasons, and I know I shouldn't have let her have it.
But, she was so excited to find it that I didn't have the heart to take it
away. I knew it wasn't poisonous (since I had already familiarized
myself with the list of banned foods) or a known allergen, in fact
I'd seen recommendations by some claiming coconut oil was good
for dogs. While it's true it could have been poisoned, she found it in
a kids garden, in the schoolyard, and you have to ask yourself, what
idiot would poison a coconut - if they were going to poison a dog,
they would poison a piece of meat. (In fact, a few years ago there was
a series of dog poisonings in the city - some sicko was deliberately leaving
poison in the city parks and a number of dogs did die from it - they never
caught the person who did it) By the time I figured out what she had,
she had already been chewing at it, so it was like "Shit, well I hope she
isn't throwing that up"
The schoolyard close to our house (a block away) that we take her
to we call Dog Central. It's perfect as it's fully fenced with 2 gates, and
very large. There's always someone out there with their dog.
> 2. NEVER chase a dog. they see it as a game.
> when my dogs get away from me and they don't have a good recall, I
> say "bye Hannah" and run in the opposite direction
>
In this case, she did recall - but stopped about 6 feet from me with
the coconut in her mouth, and kept backing away when I approached
her. If I had been forceful enough, repeatedly, she would have come
eventually. But her expression was so obvious "please, please don't take
away my delicious treat" (I personally hate coconut)
One of the problems is that Ruby DOES NOT signal when she needs to
poop or pee - or the signal is really difficult to figure out, I haven't
figured that out yet. The only way I know she is going to pee in the
house is she disappears - but that's not reliable. She has squat while
standing behind people in the house a foot away from her. (fortunately,
my MIL was watching her out of the corner of her eye and caught her
on that one)
Thanks! That's what everyone says. I guess it's just like the
high-maintainence
trophy wives, eh? Looks great, a pain to deal with. ;-)
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
Well, that's the clincher. In this case, we learned something - as did he.
We
learned that he's not going to put in the effort to do it. He learned that
a dog
isn't a panacea and takes work - far, far more effectively than our prior
years
of lecturing him that a dog is a lot of work, every time he begged for one.
Now,
we do what parents do - which is clean up the mess (ie: housebreak her)
Once we are beyond this and she is housebroken, well then, we will see. He
has expressed interest in wanting to teach her tricks. I don't have much
hope
for that - if he's not willing to even try teaching her to housebreak then I
can
guess that teaching her to "shake" and "roll over" isn't going to be
successful
either. But, I can live with a dog that doesen't know how to "roll over"
Ted
Nessa
naw teaching "give paw", and" give kiss" and "roll over" are EASY
compared to housebreaking.
I would suggest you check into some formal classes for training things
like:
sit
'stay
come
down
wait
stand
and
heel (or as I tell my dogs "walk nice")
shop around find a class you like,
My first class was horrible and I hated it.
my second class was so awesome I'm on the third dog with the same
trainer.
FurPaw
> I've decided though, that next week I'm going to have a UA done at the
> vets. The business of her peeing right after coming inside - and she didn't
> pee in the usual spot, she peed in a traffic area and it was not a lot of
> pee -
> that has me bothered. Also, when I take her outside
> to pee she tends to pee 2 -3 times even during a short 4 minute walk to the
> end of the block. I would think that if she had a full bladder and really
> needed
> to "go" that she would empty her entire bladder at once.
A UA is a good idea. I didn't realize that you haven't had a UA
done. Frequent urination and inability to empty the bladder
fully are symptoms of a urinary tract infection, and that
possibility should be eliminated or treated.
The pie-plate suggestion was a good one - and depending on the
size of your dog and your accuracy, a cup-sized measuring cup
with a long handle also works. (Neighbors laughing as you chase
the dog around the yard wearing your pajamas - that's a freebie.
;-) )
Make sure you refrigerate the sample if you can't take it
directly to the vet.
FurPaw
--
Why do people who embrace Social Darwinism object to teaching the
theory of evolution?
To reply, unleash the dog.
Nessa
<te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:nojnj4dpkgvg1rvlh...@4ax.com...
>> you betcha kids can be trained.
>>
>
>Like Sarah Palin's daughter, yep! ;-)
what do you call people that teach their kids abstinence?
GRANDMA and GRANDPA
my kid was taught that I was approachable.
she approached me. she was taught I'd rather pay for her BC than be
called grandma.
>
>> they live up to their expectations.
>>
>
>And yet in an earlier post you said you still have to get after your 16 year
>old to take the dog out/scoop the dog/etc.
yeah. and remind her to take out the trash on Sunday
and remind her to bring up the laundry from the basement
and bug her to clean her room.
reminding a child to do something and having them do it is not
supervising. it's not having a child refuse to do it.
it's not having to say anything other than "did you pick up the
poop?"
what's the big deal reminding her? she's learning about planners and
making to-do lists....
IF you had any idea HOW much this kid does with and without being
asked and mostly in a pleasant manner you would not try to nit-pick.
but let's turn it around to dogs.
will you expect your dog to do things without being asked just because
they know you want them to? or conversely don't want them to?
>
>> IF at ten and six you think kids can't be trained. I worry about the
>> teen years in your house.
>>
>> just like with dogs you train your kids to mind when they are small
>> then when they turn in to teen terrors, their behavior while
>> rebellious is not nearly as bad as if they had no rules or poor
>> training.
>>
>> Yes teens break the rules. We've had issues, but my daughter has her
>> chores, knows the rules and knows the consequences of breaking the
>> rules.
>>
>
>But that still does not get her to scoop the yard every time?
she does it. every time she is asked. (currently I am picking it up
every time the dogs go because of the parasites... but normally she
gets it every couple of days into the dog trash can and takes the can
out on trash night.
all I have to do is ask "did you scoop the poop".... and she happily
does it.
>She had. I was the one to take her outside and I watched her pee twice,
>then brought her in about 2 minutes later - and 20 seconds later there's a
>spot on the carpet. For a second I had thought one of the kids had spilled
>water.
<deep sigh> with your dog right now and the housebreaking issues you
are having there should never be a second someone's eyes are NOT on
her.
again the reminder that every time she messes in the house she learns
that she can do that.
>
>> take a disposable pie plate. collect her pee. transfer to container
>> and take it to the vet for culture.
>>
>
>Good idea about the pie plate.
I think I learned it here many years ago.....
>> I have different outside leads and inside leads... I snap the inside
>> lead on then snap the outside one off (when they are in tethered mode)
>>
>
>That would be the obvious way to do it, yes. :-)
you would be surprised how many folks don't find it obvious.....
>>
>> CRATE her then... clearly she's not safe in your daughter's room
>> (nothing is safe in MY daughter's room) so in this case if there is
>> no one appropriate to watch the pup, I'd crate her. that's what
>> crates are for. put the dog in the crate when you can't supervise the
>> dog
>>
>
>I nearly did. I hadn't expected her going after all the little bits of junk
>on
>the floor and the plastic toys and such. That isn't normal behavior for
>her, it's not like she walks through the house and as soon as she sees a
>small toy she grabs it. If I had thought she was going to do that I would
>have crated her.
ah yes... I always expect my dogs to go after stuff at dog level.
Actually I'd be surprised if my dog ignored interesting bits of
stuff....
>
>The chain I used for the tethering is about 5 feet long.
good length
>> so then I assume wife is home with her? and wife won't get on board
>> with this training?
>
>For example today we go to church in separate cars and she comes back home
>first, I come back 10 minutes after her. I walk in the house and there's
>the dog
>standing in the middle of the floor, out of her crate. Lovely. No pee on
>the
>floor, which was surprising, but a nice big poop in the usual spot. "Who
>let
>the dog out of the crate" I ask. "I did" she says. "Did you take her
>outside when you let
>her out?" I say. "No, why, did she make a mess?" OK, so the dog has been
>in the crate for the last 2.5 hours. Of course she needed to go out!
>Arrrggggh!
a year old dog should be able to hold it past 2.5 hours. but your
wife needs to get on board with the training. I hope you made your
wife clean up the mess.
>
>> did wife not really want the dog either?
>
>She was the one that suggested we go look at dogs in the first place. I
>think the real problem is the last dog she had when she was younger -
>a cocker spaniel, she forgot whatever training her parents had to do with
>it - if they even did any. Perhaps they got it fully housebroken. It died
I will bet she had NO clue as to what training her parents did with
the dog. I know I had NO clue what my folks did to housebreak the dog
we had when I was a teen... I also know that I was responsible for
walking the dog after school (after the dog was clearly housebroken)
but I could not tell you what my mom did to housebreak the dog. (and
I know she has to have housebroken him, he was 8 weeks old when we got
him)
>at probably age 17 when she was in her 20's, a few years after we met.
>In fact, I was the one who held the dog when the vet injected the drug
>to euthanize it, she and her mother couldn't deal with that and left at the
>last minute. Probably the last 5-6 years of it's life it did the typical
>older
>dog routine of a few walks now and then and mostly laying around sleeping.
>I think the issue is one of expectations, my wife does not deal easily with
>things that go differently than what she expected they would. She was
>not pleased with me when I hinted to her that this might be her problem,
>incidentally.
Yeah I think that your problem is that the wifey is not on board with
what needs to be done to fix this problem.
>Your probably the alpha leader in the pack. If your dog sees your
>husband as equal to her, then she is probably observing his obedience
>to you, and copying that when he gives her a command, eh? ;-)
I'm the older partner (by quite a bit in our culture's standards) and
yes I am clearly alpha. also Hannah was my dog before Husband was my
husband...
>One of the problems is that Ruby DOES NOT signal when she needs to
>poop or pee - or the signal is really difficult to figure out, I haven't
what about teaching her to ring a bell to go out the door to pee? hang
a bell on the door and every time you walk her through the door take
her paw and ring the bell with her paw.
>figured that out yet. The only way I know she is going to pee in the
>house is she disappears - but that's not reliable.
she should not be disappearing on you. remember she's either tethered
or crated. never ever left unsupervised by an adult.
Sounds to me like the problem is more than just your 10 year old not
being old enough to help with training. Sounds to me like your wife
is not on board with the effort needed.
that's a big big big problem for you and the dog....
if your wife does not step up and do what needs to be done to help
housebreak this dog I'm not sure you will ever be able to housebreak
her.
Janet Boss
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> I walk in the house and there's
> the dog
> standing in the middle of the floor, out of her crate. Lovely. No pee on
> the
> floor, which was surprising, but a nice big poop in the usual spot. "Who
> let
> the dog out of the crate" I ask. "I did" she says. "Did you take her
> outside when you let
> her out?" I say. "No, why, did she make a mess?" OK, so the dog has been
> in the crate for the last 2.5 hours. Of course she needed to go out!
> Arrrggggh!
DUH! She managed to help toilet train your kids?
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Paul E. Schoen
I still think the most important thing in housebreaking is for the dog to
consider the house as his "den", and dogs will not urinate and defecate in
their own den unless they don't want to go outside for some reason, or
perhaps they were not initially conditioned by the mother bitch. I think it
is an instinctual survival mechanism for dogs to do their business outside
of their den, and it is some sort of message they are trying to convey when
they mess inside the house (which they do not yet consider their den). I
would make sure the dog feels completely at ease and unconditionally loved
by all members of the household. Once Muttley reached that state of mind,
he no longer messed in the house, even though the original stimulus (the
cat) was still around. And I did not take any special effort to clean up
the spots where he had messed, except some bleach and detergent.
It is important to find a good trainer, or possibly a behaviorist, when
things become difficult. It is hard to diagnose problems by means of
newsgroup posts. One on one personal observations and exercises are the
only sure way, and even then it might be difficult.
Paul and Muttley
Paul E. Schoen
>
>
> Sounds to me like the problem is more than just your 10 year old not
> being old enough to help with training. Sounds to me like your wife
> is not on board with the effort needed.
>
> that's a big big big problem for you and the dog....
>
> if your wife does not step up and do what needs to be done to help
> housebreak this dog I'm not sure you will ever be able to housebreak
> her.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Nessa
I think this is the crux of the problem, and I think the dog does not feel
really bonded with the wife, and vice-versa. It really seems to be a
message that the house is not really viewed by the dog as a comfortable
den, with all members of the family as proper members of the pack, so the
dog is leaving a message for those that are not "on-board". The dog
probably was basically housebroken at the shelter, but is now sending
signals of discontent. It was probably easier for me, since I was the only
one in the house (other than the cat). Since she was not part of the pack,
Muttley was marking in the house. When he eventually got more used to her,
and was able to see me holding her without reacting too much, I think he
accepted her as a member of the household, although he would still chase
her, and she was too terrified to let him get close. But I think there was
a subtle change in his attitude toward her, so that the "den" was now
inhabited only by trusted pack members, and he ceased his marking behavior.
Ted may have a difficult task at hand. It would be helpful to learn more
about just how each member of the family interacts with the dog. I was
always very loving and physical in my dealings with Muttley, and he seemed
to feel comfortable approaching me, laying in bed with me, going for walks,
and being handled in various ways. I paid attention to him, and I also
respected his desires to act like a dog. He obeyed simple commands but
never was good about heeling, and all my efforts to force him to comply by
yanking on his choker chain and prong collars had little effect, except
possibly to aggravate him and cause redirected aggression.
He still is a very independent dog, but he knows his limits. Tonight I
cooked a steak, and he sure wanted a piece of it, but he did not jump on
the counter when I left it there for a few minutes. I ate it while he sat
with his nose just inches from the plate, but he patiently waited, drooling
on my foot, while I ate most of it. I cut up a few pieces, told him to
wait, and put the plate on the floor while he sat staring at it. I told him
"OK", and he had his share.
I also had a bag of trash on the floor, with some chicken bones and other
high value items that he should not have, and there was also a piece of
paper that the steak had been on. He was able to sneak that piece of paper
out of the bag without disturbing anything else. I took it from him with no
argument, and then disposed of the bag outside. But he is very good about
leaving things alone, because I think he respects me as his pack leader, at
least inside the house. Outside, I think he takes on a different mindset,
and wants to go his own way. But he is usually not terribly bad on the
leash, and others recently remarked that he seemed to do very well as we
walked with him around the property.
So, IMHO, a dog needs to accept all family members as part of the pack. It
was easy with just me. It is much more difficult when others are also
present. They must be totally on-board, or they will be viewed as
outsiders.
Paul and Muttley
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
This is gonna be particularly EMBARRASSIN so I suggest
you DO NOT REPLY and if you do, PLEASE snip those
EMBARRASSIN cross posts and EXXXTRANEHOWES
TEXT <{}: ~ ) >
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:4h9p06-...@news.ipinc.net...
You gettin WIZE to them, teddy??
Let's just go directly to the FACTS, shall we?:
HOWEDY nessa, you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin
animal murderin punk thug coward active acute chronic
life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES mental case,
"Nessa" <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oe1ij4pju2tesihfc...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:28:09 -0800, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
>>"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>>news:janet-19CDE7....@news.individual.net...
>>> In article <tvol06-...@news.ipinc.net>,
>>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>>> Oh well! It does. I don't have puppy problems!
>
>>I thought I mentioned before this isn't a puppy?
> FWIW I thought it was a puppy too.
Yeah. janet and nessa are both taking ANTI-PSYCHOTIC
medications which impedes their THINKIN an MEMORY.
LIKE THIS:
NESSA NUTCASE MVP (Most Valuable Psycho) of dog newsgroups
Successfully dethroned MaryBeth as MVP
Nessa blames all the problems in her life moston ADD ADHD Or
some other empowering acronym which encapsulates her futility
for her
Her dog bagel, a large newf mix has used her house liberally
as a toilet since February of 2002. Drives a 2003 Toyota
Matrix, owns a house in suburban MD, recently got a
raise/promotion to US goverment grade 11 (circa $50,000) and
promptly decided she couldn't afford her two dogs. With help
from non crazy regular (Paulette) and witchcraft practicing
regular Sara Sionnach, Nessa has decided to keep her dogs for
the time being. She is undergoing training from Janet "Nice
Abdominal Surgery and getting Run Over for the Family Pet."
Her results have not been dramatic.
CrAzy ReGulAr helping CraZy ReGular Leah helping Nessa
=============================
On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 8:40:08 -0400, Leah wrote
Nessa use...@nessa.info wrote:
"As far as the depression goes, it's not related to Bagel
at all. I have chronic major depression and I'm just having
a flare."
Leah asks "Are you on any medication?"
Nessa responds
yes for depression, mood swings and ADHD. I have been for
over 10 years.
--nessa
Nessa is Fat as well as crazy
"For what it's worth...
I picked up 30 pounds when I started Dilantin. I picked up
(just recently) another 20 on risperidol.
I hate that I was a size 8-10 before meds and now I am
solidly (pun intended) a 22-24.
Sad part is, the side effects are worth it. The positive
effects are too much to part with."
--nessa
============================
NESSA'S HAS A GREAT NEUROPSYCH
Hi, I have a great neuropsych in Arlington Va. He is at the
Rosyln Metro Station. His name is Martin Stein 1911 N Fort
Myer Dr. Suite 907 Arlington Va 22209 703-807-2471 email
75120...@compuserve.com
Marty is wonderful. He is really the best. He has also
given me permission to post his infomation on this
Newsgroup. If you call him and see him by all means tell
him Nessa sent you.
--nessa
ROTATE YOUR STIMULANTS
from: Nessa (ne...@ix.netcom.com)
Hi,
I often have to rotate my stimulants. You can become used to
them and sometimes need a different one for a while. Until
I got on my Desoxyn I rotated Ritilan and Dexedrine every 3
months or so.
It is true that anti-depressants or anti-anxiety pills will
help with the stimulants so your DR is not wrong. However,
perhaps she needs to check into the idea that a switch from
cylert to something else might be in order.
warm thoughts, Nessa
=====================
> doesn't matter
Well, yeah, it DOES matter <{}: ~ ( >
WON cannot TRUST their own judgement if they're under
the influence of psychotropic anti psychotic medications.
> if you have housebreaking problems you treat like a brand new puppy.
Like THAT, for EXXXAMPLE~!
Puppys HOWEsbreak INSTINCTIVELY at three weeks of age.
HOWEsbreakin is a critter's #1 TERRORtorial IMPERATIVE
second ONLY to survival; it's THE MOST NORMAL, NATURAL,
INNATE, INSTINCTIVE, REFLEXIVE behaviors <{}: ~ ) >
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed
in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big
books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in
Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
--------------------
From: "Dr. Von" <drv...@mindspring.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups?
> > Hello, Does anyone know of a dedicated newsgroup for
> > positive-only dog training, in particular clicker training?
> > Thanks, Lucy
Jen wrote:
> I would love to know of one as well. If there was enough people
> interested maybe we could start one. I've just started clicker training my
> dog and have been doing the positive training for a while now. I think
> it's great!! Jen "artbylucy" <artbyl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OMudnRS23OLEc7ze...@comcast.com...
Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list,
needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I
don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback.
The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate
to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any
more problems and there is no need for any more technique.
With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked
by the entirely practical and effective methods described
in his FREE manual. Free download, nothing sold, no
mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free support if
needed.
With ADHD kids I provide similar information at
www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for
a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply
as directed and have happy healthy doggies or
kiddies.
Not difficult.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake,
choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of
affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities.
You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to
understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he
taught that there are outward and inward responding
organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if
you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training
methods effectively.
Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is
recommended and given only by deranged humans.
Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talking
dogs, cats, people, sheep, even husbands. Dr. Von
---------------------
Dr. Von wrote:
Unconditional Acceptance, Love, Approval are a positive
reinforcement of good feelings and reinforce groupness.
What your critics do not realize is that all free dogs live
in packs all heaped up together, touching each other closely,
or sniffing and barking happily or working tracking and
chasing down prey.
All loving groups are continually rewarding each
other with "good brother/sister" sounds and smells.
I can send you a bibliography of hundreds, nay,
thousands of papers which prove that scaring,
hurting, startling, demeaning, punishing animals
deranges behavior.
NEGATIVE means NO! Freshmen frequently make
the error that negative reinforcement is aversive
reinforcement, no, its NO reinforcement.
Aversive reinforcement includes choking, kicking,
biting, shocking, abrading, alpha rolling and other
sadistic behaviors. AVERSIVE reinforcement always
deranges behavior.
Neither paramecia nor dogs ever forget.
Dr. Von
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESES With PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
support or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your relationship
with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he knows
that he is in a safe and trusting environment. You praise
and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy, and
this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving aggresively -
why not, you've declared that you are his enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say "Good Dog"
you love and praise him. THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear
is outside trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he is safe,
no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster.
Correct the situation, and the dog behaves fluently like a .....Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never
never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a piece of steak.
If you give a piece of steak to a dog after he defecates on the floor
he'll stop defecating on the floor.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That
Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done
Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggies.
Fondly, Dr. Von
--------------------------------------
"George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone proclaiming a method
> > > > > that works on all dogs, all the time, would send up "red flag" to
> > > > > you and others, but the fact remains, if a technique *doesn't*
> > > > > work 100% of the time, with all dogs, then there must be a flaw in
> > > > > the philosophy underlying that technique.
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method is involved -
> > > > that's just acceptance of reality.
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the method, though
> > > anyone is welcome to make that leap.
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy and its model of
> > > learning.
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using terminology
> > differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must typically administer the
> aversive stimulus in order to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than the
methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
-----------------
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson (Pavlov's
last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio University. I even got
to spend a night at Sam's house. There is no question but that
you are a spiritual brother to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom
knew that the dog's great capacity for love was the key to shaping
doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are both well
documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless a chap as
B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose "The Misbehavior
of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your methods and their deep
roots in scientific (as opposed to commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who
in Science and Technology
> my 11 month old puppy is new to us. he was treated like
> he was 8 weeks old when we first brought him home
> we taught him steps
It took a month <{}: ~ ( >
It SHOULDA took maybe TEN MINUTES.
> we taught him housebreaking
The puppy has had CONSTANT diareah inside nessa's HOWES.
> we crated
OtherWIZE the dog woulda DESTROYED her HOWES.
> we tethered
nessa tethered her DEAD DOG Bagle for THREE YEARS
tying IT to the wall in her crapper an to her bed.
> I slept on the couch for FOUR WEEKS before he learned steps properly to go
> up and down... (no way I could carry him up and down the steps he's an 80
> pound underweight puppy)
Yeah. LUCKY thing it only takes a couple minutes to
TRAIN ANY heelthy mature dog to go up stairs or even
climb a ladder. MINUTES -- not WEEKS or MONTHS.
>>>> All the parents I've met had kids that act like our kids.
Yeah. They're VICTIMS of ABUSE.
>>> Too bad. Don't you enforce rules?
You mean INSTEAD of TRAININ the kids or dog?
LIKE THIS
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpaulbou...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.
My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls
:-)
I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction anytime
the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed with immediate
praise. It worked a treat.
The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is food
left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go out and
leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.
Paul
--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
SEE??
>>Typical cheap shot by the childless not even worth a response.
Let's not be UNKINDLY <{}: ~ ( >
janet never had children on accHOWENTA she's got heelth issues.
> NOT a cheap shot. I have the same question and I
> have children THREE OF THEM, two grown.
EACH of nessa's kids are MENTALLY ILL <{}: ~ ( >
>>>> Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have kids
>>>> docile enough that you can teach them to not feed the
>>>> dog under the table.
Yeah? nessas' kids still can't wipe their own arses.
>>> I've had more meals with more SMALL (and large) children than you can
>>> imagine. All of them were
>>> quite aware that feeding the dog was unacceptable.
janet is a EXXXPERIENCED baby sitter~!
>> Most people's kids, including our own, are perfect little
>> angels when over at OTHER people's homes. They save
>> their rotten behavior for their parents.
INDEED?
>> But I can see this argument is pointless.
"Pointless"? No, it's INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
We call THAT, forensic science <{}: ~ ( >
>> Either you have never had kids yourself, in which
>> case you simply don't know what your talking about,
>> or your one of those few parents who had docile kids who grew up to be
>> lawyers or dentists or something and take out their rebellion they never
>> had with you on
>> their unfortunate clients, or at their weeklytherapist meeting.
Well then, nessa's kids are well ahead of the game <{}: ~ ( >
nessa wrote:
my kids are not angels. I've had my share of problems.
ONE of my kids is emotionally disturbed. He knew rules.
he followed rules or he had consequences. even at 24 he
is still fighting the rules and still suffering the consequences
of disregarding the rules, even if he does not understand it
much more than a 10 year old, we do it every day....
one is on the autistic spectrum (the 24 year old)
he's in a group home. there are some problems but he's
not murdered anyone yet and we've not killed him either."
one is ADHD (the 22 year old who BTW GRADUATES
from DREXEL this year) one is learning disabled (my 16
yr old girl child stepdaughter who came as the bonus child
with the current husband)
two no longer live at home but they learned quickly NO means NO"
> Ted. I'm calling BULLSHIT here. sorry my kids are not angels.
Of curse not -- they're MENTAL PATIENTS.
EVERY WON OF 'EM.
AND I've got their own POSTED CASE HISTORIES to PROVE IT.
> I've had my share of problems.
INDEED??
> ONE of my kids is emotionally disturbed.
No, ALL of them are "emotionally disturbed" i.e.: KUCK-KOO.
> He knew rules. he followed rules or he had consequences.
That so?
> even at 24 he is still fighting the rules
Naaaah??
> and still suffering the consequences of disregarding the rules, even if
> he does not understand it much more
> than a 10 year old, we do it every day....
Is THAT the child who NEEDS to live in a group HOWES??
>>And in any case, it's not really the feeding - our dinner table is small
>>enough that we can grab if we see one of the kids doing it. It's even the
>>hint
>> of getting fed that is the problem.
Hmmm. PROBLEMO, eh??
> they shouldn't need to be grabbed. they should not be doing it at all.
Yeah. HOWEver, mom doggy don't know HOWE to TRAIN her babies.
> it's a NON Issue.
INDEED?
> my dogs lay next to or under the table when we eat. we like it that way.
UNLESS of curse, they gotta be LOCKED IN A BOX.
> now granted my last dog was horrible about begging but that was
> because we indulged him with treats from the table (sweet potato skins
> mostly) and my MIL and BIL slipped him food whenever they were here so I
> did crate him for dinner when we had company
> but when it was just the family he KNEW that GO LAY DOWN meant just that.
UNLESS of curse, it means otherWIZE <{}: ~ ) >
>> If a kid gets away even once with feeding the dog, the dog
>> immediately assumes they have a shot at getting fed again.
That's ABSURD and INSANE.
> exactly so you have to RE-train which is harder.
That's MALARKEY.
>>Having a dog standing there staring at a kid waiting for
>> an illicit handout is obviously an irresistable temptation
>> to a child - it certainly was to ours. Thus, the simple and
>> effective solution was to remove the temptation from the children.
INDEED?
> or teach your children some restraint.
Ahhh, by deamonstrated self EXXXAMPLE <{}: ~ ) >
> Sorry if my kid was sitting at the table and the dog was resting his
> head on the table doing puppy eyes I'd tell the dog "go lay down"
> (can't tell you how many meals early on my dogs spent doing their
> "sit on it exercise" which is dog on leash, leash under my butt, dog
> on "settle" (which is really a casual down in our house) on the floor
> next to my chair being ignored)
Yeah. THAT'S HOWE COME you can't train them <{}: ~ ( >
> my dogs heads hit the table (or in Hannah's case, paws like just
> happened as I'm typing) and they are told OFF and pushed away.
Yeah. THAT'S HOWE COME you can't train them:
"Paul B" <some...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3edc...@clear.net.nz...
When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk close
to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching
them without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use
good communication and was unable to be tempted
to use the lead to correct them.
Another part of the training I agree with is not using
the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
or react with it in such a way that you become involved
in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach
often results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when you
are about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding,
counter surfing etc).
Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
is included in this), teach it to recall reliably,
then to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
Paul
----------------
SEE??
> my dogs are really really spoiled
Yeah. Bagle BROKE HIS OWN NECK playin an then
MURDERED HISSELF to CURE the PAIN <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
nessa wrote:
Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
when he moved his head."
LIKE THIS:
nick wrote:
> > "I know were not "hurting" her when we hold
> > her down, as the force is not enough to do
> > any damage..."
> Wow - ONE comment.
You've already said enough, nicky.
> Do I do it any more?
You mean, beat your wife kids and dog, nicky?
> NO.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
WHAT CHANGED, nicky?
> > Serviette?
> Touche?
Yeah. SCHTUPPED... BUT GOOD, to say the least, nicky.
> I dunno HOWE you do it, Jerry.
It's EZ, nicky. It's ALL in The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's Archives on Google.com, nicky.
> You come on these boards to do
> nothing but troll and flame and
IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT
HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Cowards and ACTIVE LONG
TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES,
like yourself, nicky.
> give NOTHING back.
Let's take your temperature?
> People make mistakes -
NOT HERE.
HERE they make ON-PUPORSES.
> did I Do the right thing initially with my pup? NO -
DUH-OH?
> why do you think I came to post on the boards!
You came here for the SAME SAME SAME
SAME REASON the rest of these LYING DOG
ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARDS and ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES come
here, nicky. You WANTED to LEARN HOWE to
HURT and INTIMIDATE your dog ENOUGH to
MAKE IT RESPECT your G-D like AUTHORITY.
> I don't so much as look at her crosseyed now,
On accHOWENTA SHE'S DEAD an BURIED <{}: ~ ( >
> so why don't you stop?
And THAT would make nicky VERY VERY
VERY HAPPY, WOULD IT, nicky??
> Nick
An here's nick, janet an nessas' PREDICTABLE results:
Subject: Re: Jezebel is gone
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d176313-bb06-4898...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
She passed last night at 4 am. She had been having neck pain
which we had been taking her to the vet about since Sunday.
We woke up at 3 am to her throwing up and
there was a significant amount of blood in it.
We then had her sleeping between us while we figured out
what to do and at 4 am I got up to let my mother in law in.
She was breathing when I got up and when I came back she had
stopped. I tried to revive her with CPR, but did not succeed.
She was approximately one year old and I wish I had been
able to spend more than just the two short months with her.
Nick
------------------------
HOWEDY nick,
Looks like your "DOG WHEEESPERER"
trainin BROKE HER NECK.
That happens pretty often here, DON'T IT <{}: ~ ( >
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
WELCOME BACK TO THE FOLD, nessa,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
murderin MENTAL CASE <{}'; ~ ) >
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:45:30 GMT
Subject: Training...
well both my kids are asleep one on my left and one on my right.
Bagel has taken to running away every chance he gets now so I
have to be ever vigilant.
I have tried every type of collar around. Flat Buckle, nylon
lobster claw slip collar, harness, gentle leader. Yesterday I
watched him on a prong collar. I SWORE I would NEVER
use a prong collar.
He willingly sits to have it put on (as opposed to fighting me
when I put on the gentle leader). He is no longer pulling on
the leash when we walk.
Currently he is doing his 30 minute quiet period next to my
chair with it on since he is leashed and he is out like a light.
So is Hannah.
I tried to find them a place to play off leash tonight since
Bagel has become a happy wanderer and I couldn't find a
safe place so they didn't get as much play as any of us would like.
I am doing my training with Janet and I am so happy.
Bagel did his sit downs tonight without much fuss and
Hannah watched from the crate. Then we let Hannah do
about 5 minutes of sit and down. She's getting good at them.
I have been rewarding with treats and tonite I didn't and
they still did what I told them to do. with Bagel on my
left with his head facing front and Hannah on my right
with her head facing back I feel like I have the most
beautiful bookends in the world.
Life with a dog..... PRICELESS
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
-----------------
SEE??
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> however they should have been taught
> from the beginning "no table"
That's SHEER IDIOCY:
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpand...@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 00:13:28 PST
Hello Marshall,
The way I view it from my observation of how my dogs react
is that the distraction interrupts the dogs thought, not for good
or bad, just interrupts, the dog is therefore distracted for a second
and then will either continue the behaviour or do something else.
The praise reassures the dog that the sound distraction is not a
threat or punishment, however if everytime the dog resumes a
particular behaviour it's distracted immediately (and praised
immediately for reassurance) then it quickly decides this
behaviour is not fulfilling and it ceases.
A dog will offer another behaviour in it's place and if that
is acceptable to us then we let it be otherwise the distraction
continues until a suitable alternate behaviour is offered.
One example, Sam used to jump up on me when I arrived
home, I would shake can to distract him right at the moment
he was about to jump up, after about 4 repetitions he tried
sitting and offering me his paw, of course this was fine so I
let it be.
While the concept of shake cans is not new, I haven't read
any other advice that says to praise immediately regardless
of what the dog does next (the common advice is to praise
once the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least stopped
the unwanted behaviour), this is unique to Jerry (and Marilyn)
and from my own experiences is an important part of the process.
---------------------------
"Paul B" <pand...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
all, people who find the manual useful are those that
don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
live with.
I would suggest the people who follow the advice in
his manual are people who have already tried other
inefficient methods and are fed up with the poor results.
The more I think about the methods he suggests the
more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
our values and I don't believe they are capable of
understanding them either, so to train them we use
methods they understand. That means abstract
training, doing sometimes what appears to
almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
If you are purely result orientated then you will not
find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
and love to work WITH them then his manual is
your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
it, it's very obvious why.
When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
pursue that behaviour.
Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
Paul
----------------------
>>It's easy to make pronouncements when you haven't seen the layout of
>>the home. This is a small city house, with children, toys, and furniture,
>>all of which arrived long before the dog and none of which was procured
>>with a dog in mind. It's quite different than a childless home that's had
>>dogs running around in it for years, and been optimized for that
>>environment.
Looks like teddy AIN'T INTERESTED in learnin
HOWE to TRAIN his children or dogs, eh??
> again BULLSHIT
>
> one lab pit mix about 65 pounds one NEWFOUNDLAND (currently underweight at
> about 80 pounds)
And they made a latrine of nessas' HOWES <{}: ~ ( >
> ONE TOWNHOUSE STUFFED WITH FURNINTURE,
> electronics, RC cars, stuff that belonged to my mom, my teen terrors
> stuff, my stuff (and I collect a lot of stuff)
> NO garage to put stuff in....
>
> house has games all over (we are gamers)
>
> shoes everywhere
>
> STUFF everywhere.
>
> Please. more excuses on your part.
Oh, an don't forget the UN TRAINED
dogs and MENTALLY ILL children.
>> Sure, we could totally rearrainge our home and lifestyle
>> to make it possible to tether a dog to whoever is in the home at the
>> time. (my wife, mainly)
That's ABSURD and INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
> what does it take for wife to put the leash through her belt loop and
> go about her business. the dog walks in the house right? wife walks
> in the house right?
>
> dog and wife are in the same area at times right?
>
> again you are just making excuses for not wanting to do what is being
> suggested.
>
> my friend is trying to fix a pee pee problem in her home.
An she AIN'T HAVIN NO LUCK <{}: ~ ( >
> she did not want to do what needed to be done (belly band her boy dog)
Puttin a belly band on a dog is CRUEL and INSANE behavior.
> so we talked about what other options she had.
Like GETTIN RID of the dogs??
> her choices are not mine but her dogs are not mine. she has 6 yr old dogs
> she is retraining.
That's ABSURD.
> it's hard work but it can be done...
No, HOWEsbreakin a dog AIN'T "hard work".
> but she did not make excuses for why she could not do it.
Right. She simply COULDN'T DO IT.
> she stood her ground and said NO I DO NOT WANT TO DO IT THAT WAY.
That's inspiring~!
> and ya know what, that's her choice. the dogs may never learn to pee
> outside but if she's OK with them using puppy
> pads forever, that's her choice. but she did not make
> EXCUSES for why she could not do it. she accepted the responsibility for
> her behavior and her feelings.
Ahhh, so this is all abHOWET "FEELINS" again??
> I think the biggest problem with folks here getting upset is when
> folks refuse to take responsibility for their actions and choices.
Oh, like MURDERIN their dogs when necessary?
> I suck as a dog mom...
Of curse~!
> but I admit it.
Yeah, on accHOWENTA it's ALL in her own POSTED CASE HISTORY.
> and I take the responsibility for my behavior and my dogs behavior, I
> don't try to make excuses or
> blame it on someone else.
Of curse not~!
Like her DEAD DOG Bagle's BROKEN NECK.
>>The food isn't in the crate so when she is crated she can't
>> get at it. When my wife came back she came out of the
>> crate and ate the rest of it, then was taken outside. (she wasn't given
>> any more food after that) She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when she
>> peed on the floor again -
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> at the time, our oldest kid (the one who was begging for a dog the last 4
>> years) was supposed to be watching her, but was instead watching TV.
>
> a ten year old is being held responsible for housebreaking a
> dog but can't be held responsible for not feeding it at the table.
> sorry a ten year old sometimes can't be responsible for not wetting
> themselves if the video game is interesting enough...
ONLY if they're MENTALLY DISTURBED.
> not sure when the dog went out before 4 or 5 pm but if it was much before
> 2 I'd have put the dog out again.
THAT'S HOWE COME the dog AIN'T GONNA
LEARN SELF-CON-TROLL <{}: ~ ( >
> the kids wanted the dog you got the dogs but I get
> the feeling you really don't want the dog...
Probably so. HOWEver, NHOWE it's become a CHALLENGE~!
>>Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because
>> it gave us an unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until the dog was
>> housebroken, and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to
>> clean it up.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
HERE'S THE SCIENCE YOU FEAR AND HATE:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable."
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock
and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and offering
and witholding rewards, attention, and affection:
Psychological Effects
At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?
"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in
a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on
what it is, but it varies from dog to dog.
It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect
of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired
need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild.
Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long
term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004).
Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334).
The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in
dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two
dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general
obedience and protection training.
One group was trained with shock collars and the other group
without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars
displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched
yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and
tongue flicking.
It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed
walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to
show signs of stress while in the company of their handler.
The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful;
receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock
group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner
(or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even
outside of the normal training context.
They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs
is at stake, at least in the presence of their owners.
This study has come under considerable fire because the experience
of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not
stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the
experience of being shocked during training.
---------------------
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contemporary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<doctype>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:
Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.
Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
From: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness
Dear Marilyn,
I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.
Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.
The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.
It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.
I don't think this is because they love something else more.
I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.
It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.
Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.
Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.
I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.
It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.
If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it
should.
The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
----------------
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
----------------------------
> did he understand HOW to clean it up how to use the Nature's Miracle and
> Simple Solution to make sure the
> area she peed is not enticing next time?
THAT'S ABSURD AND INSANE.
Dogs DO NOT mark over their own spots <{}: ~ ( >
> you may not have had to actually clean it but
> I sure hope you supervised it.
Perhaps the kid should learn to do it on ITS own?
> Proper ownership of a dog is something only an adult can handle.
INDEED?
> Kids can be a part of it.
Ya think?
> my daughter can feed the dogs now that they
> are on kibble and not special diets
At sixteen years of age? AMAZING~!
> she can walk the dogs she can teach tricks
> she can pooper scoop the backyard as needed
>
> but even at 16 1/2 she has to be asked:
>
> did you feed the dogs? (oh no I forgot)
> did you scoop the poop (sorry mom I fell asleep)
>
> even at 16 the necessary adult wiring is not quite connected....
Perhaps THAT'S on accHOWENTA at 16 she's a RETARD??
> ten years old is too young to expect them to
> be the responsible party for the dog.
Sez mommy nessa?
> You have been given great suggestions from great people.
They're MENTAL CASES, LIARS, COWARDS
an dog an child abusers <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first
time, spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth
and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled with
this but just ignore him and continue your normal
behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
Here's janet's CUSTOME MADE pronged spiked pinch choke collar:
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
BWEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA!!!
From: sionnach (rhyfe...@email.msn.com)
Subject: Re: Correct use of prong collar
Date: 2001-05-05 13:03:14 PST
> And Sally responded:
> > Who said that? I would never do or recommend
> > that, and neither would most of the regulars
> > on here.
> > Sally Hennessey
> I've posted my entire quote, since Patch failed
> to do so. Take it out of context and you'd think
> I was flinging puppies across the room!
> here's what I said (keep in mind that we're
> talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):
> A small scruff shake is appropriate if he's very persistant.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make
it clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily
misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff
of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?
I think I'd phrase it something like "if the puppy
is very persistant, it can be appropriate to take
hold of the loose skin at the back of the neck and
give a slight shake to the *skin*".
Janet's not talking about actually shaking
the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is
abusive."
----------------------
LIKE THIS:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite
: > their dogs ears to leash train them.
>
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
> "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
>: news:bvtf67$106jeh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
: >
: > <yawn> Once again- that's NOT a quote
: > from any post of mine; JH "wrote" it, not me.
:
: No, that's a flat HOWET lie, sinofabich. It's a
: direct quote from YOU, with exception of TWO
: WORDS, "smartly" and "neatly."
:
: > It's quotes from two different posts, by two
: > different people -
:
: ONLY if you're SCHIZOPHRENIC, sinofabitch.
:
: > both taken out of context-
:
: YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: We got your original post in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.
:
: You'll see your own words EXXXACTLY as QUOTED.
: And we'll likeWIZE see you DENYING your own words
: in three different ways!!!
:
: > and with extra wording added in by a third person.
:
: NO. YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: The ONLY "extra words," SMARTLY and NEATLY,
: were INDEEDY, added by The Puppy Wizard, HOWEver
: they were NOT SIGNIFICANT, except for poetic license:
:
: You're a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE:
:
: "When it was obvious that she had NO intention
: of paying any attention to anything but the other
: dogs (and that I was in danger of having my arm
: dislocated <G>), I didn't even think about it; I
: dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the
: Lab's shoulder, grabbed her opposite foot with
: my left hand, rolled her on her side, leaned on
: her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear (not
: particularly hard- I wasn't trying to *hurt* her,
: just get her attention!)."
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: I dropped the leash!
: Date: 2003-12-15 07:55:16 PST
:
: > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
: > Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
: > Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
: > And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
:
: <yawn> That's not a quote written by me, kiddo.
: That's an amalgam of two different people's posts,
: with extra words added by Jerry.
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite their dogs ears
: > to leash train them.
:
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.
:
: It had fuck-all to do with leash training though, and
: everything to do with getting through to an incredibly
: hard-headed, tough-minded, and spoiled-rotten dog
: that A. she was NOT going to physically control me
: the way she had every other female human she'd dealt
: with and B. that I was worth paying attention to.
:
: It came up in a discussion where someone else
: mentioned having nipped a terrier puppy who
: wouldn't stop play-biting. In both cases, it was a
: one-time instinctive response to an unusual situation.
:
: --------------------
:
: sinofabitch writes:
: > >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
: > >> took posts from two different people,
: > >> took pieces of them out of context,
: > >> cobbled them together,
: > >> then added his own words:
:
: "Neatly," and "Smartly."
:
: > >> and a fake signature.
:
: "sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
:
: > >> Which is exactly what he did.
: > >> The actual quote is misleading
: > >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
: > >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
>
: > > Here's Jerry's version
>
: > > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
: > > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
: > > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
: > > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
: > > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
: > > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
: > > Here's yours;
: > > "I dropped the leash, threw my
: > > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
: > > grabbed her opposite foot with my
: > > left hand, rolled her on her side,
: > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
: > > nipped her ear.
: > > --Sara Sionnach
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
See?
> these are the people that six years ago made me
> a much better dog mom than I was.
LIKE THIS:
nessa wrote:
Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
when he moved his head."
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:45:30 GMT
Subject: Training...
well both my kids are asleep one on my left and one on my right.
Bagel has taken to running away every chance he gets now so I
have to be ever vigilant.
I have tried every type of collar around. Flat Buckle, nylon
lobster claw slip collar, harness, gentle leader. Yesterday I
watched him on a prong collar. I SWORE I would NEVER
use a prong collar.
He willingly sits to have it put on (as opposed to fighting me
when I put on the gentle leader). He is no longer pulling on
the leash when we walk.
Currently he is doing his 30 minute quiet period next to my
chair with it on since he is leashed and he is out like a light.
So is Hannah.
I tried to find them a place to play off leash tonight since
Bagel has become a happy wanderer and I couldn't find a
safe place so they didn't get as much play as any of us would like.
I am doing my training with Janet and I am so happy.
Bagel did his sit downs tonight without much fuss and
Hannah watched from the crate. Then we let Hannah do
about 5 minutes of sit and down. She's getting good at them.
I have been rewarding with treats and tonite I didn't and
they still did what I told them to do. with Bagel on my
left with his head facing front and Hannah on my right
with her head facing back I feel like I have the most
beautiful bookends in the world.
Life with a dog..... PRICELESS
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
-----------------
SEE??
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
WELCOME BACK TO THE FOLD, nessa,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
murderin MENTAL CASE <{}'; ~ ) >
> these are the people that taught me well enough so that when my other dog
> died and I applied to rescue a purebred,
> the rescue gladly gave me a large puppy who had never
> been in a house at nearly 10 months who in 8 short weeks,
> I've managed to train and housebreak without many problems (unless you
> count the submissive peeing which we've solved
> too)
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> Accept that you came for help and you don't
> like what you are being told.
> you have two choices... do what's being suggested and fix the problem
That NEVER WORKS.
> or blow us off (those with years of dog experience both personal and
> professional) try it your way and eventually say "we can't do this"
> and rehome the dog.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> Best Wishes,
>
> Nessa
> ----
> Dog Mom to:
> Hannah age 6.5 Pitador rescued age 9 weeks
> Harley small shaggy cow that I love and adore
> (landseer Newf rescued 10/08) (Angel) Bagel went to Rainbow Bridge
> 9/18/08 my Newfandstuff age 8.5
Here's janet's REAL LIFE IN-PERSON "PROFESSIONAL
OBEDIENCE TRAINING" "student", nessa, pryor to 'returning
to the fold' after her own dog DROPPED DEAD from STRESS
INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE a.k.a. The Puppy
Wizard's Syndrome like HOWE janet an sinofabitches an
racetrack silly's DEAD DOGS DONE:
Subject: First Class was tonite
1 From: Nessa
Date: Tues, Jun 11 2002 8:32 pm
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
Tonite I started Janet's obedience class. It's
like NIGHT and DAY from the class Bagel 'flunked'.
I was amazed at the difference and I am very glad
Janet gave me the chance to attend her class.
I can't wait till PK on Saturday.
Nessa
------------------
Subject: Training...
1 From: Nessa
Date: Wed, Jun 12 2002 9:45 pm
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
well both my kids are asleep one on my left and
one on my right. Bagel has taken to running away
every chance he gets now so I have to be ever vigilant.
I have tried every type of collar around. Flat Buckle,
nylon lobster claw slip collar, harness, gentle leader.
Yesterday I watched him on a prong collar.
I SWORE I would NEVER use a prong collar.
He willingly sits to have it put on (as opposed
to fighting me when I put on the gentle leader).
He is no longer pulling on the leash when we walk.
Currently he is doing his 30 minute quiet period
next to my chair with it on since he is leashed and
he is out like a light. So is Hannah.
I tried to find them a place to play off leash tonight
since Bagel has become a happy wanderer and I
couldn't find a safe place so they didn't get as much
play as any of us would like.
I am doing my training with Janet and I am so happy.
Bagel did his sit downs tonight without much fuss and
Hannah watched from the crate. Then we let Hannah
do about 5 minutes of sit and down.
She's getting good at them.
I have been rewarding with treats and tonite I didn't
and they still did what I told them to do. with Bagel
on my left with his head facing front and Hannah on
my right with her head facing back I feel like I have
the most beautiful bookends in the world.
Life with a dog..... PRICELESS
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
---------------
From: Nessa
Date: Thurs, Jul 4 2002 8:22 am
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 0:08:02 -0400, Jenn wrote
(in message <CSPU8.117216$Lf2.8604...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca>):
> That aside, I crate trained both my dogs
> successfully, and used the crate to house
> train them.
Bagel is so well crate trained that in the mornings when
I make his Kong, he runs to the crate and since I am not
crating him anymore (just confining him) but I am crating
Hannah, I have to pull him out of the crate and he does not
want to get out.
BTW housebreaking with Janet is going quite well.
Nessa
----------------
Subject: I went away for the weekend... big mistake
1 From: Nessa -
Date: Sun, Jul 21 2002 9:58 pm
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
I went away for the weekend and I think my
dog walker will never speak to me again.
Bagel escaped from the kitchen and ate about 10
pounds of puppy food and proceeded to deposit it
all over my house.
He esp. liked my living room sofa which was my
mothers as he pulled some cushions off of it and
literally stood on it and peed.
Yes I know my dog has issues and I know I need help.
I think my poor dog walker needs therapy now.
It was a rough dog weekend for her and not
just with my kids.
I didn't know until the last minute I was going
away and NEXT time, the furbabies will go to
furbaby camp for the weekend.
It was too much for them.
Well live and learn.
Meanwhile, I'm still glad I went on retreat.
My house will survive as things are not important.
Hannah still loves me and Bagel will talk
to me in a few days.....
Nessa
------------
From: Nessa (use...@nessa.info)
Subject: Re: Where we stand/sit/down/leave it Now
Date: 2003-09-17 14:14:51 PST
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:16:04 -0400,
Charlie Wilkes wrote (in message
<6dchmvc41uetv229f7249jh60k6881i...@4ax.com>):
> Yes, it's a huge improvement over shoving them
> in crates at night. But why does Bagel have to
> be leashed?
because he will wander the area (room if i close
the door or house if i don't) and pee and bark all
night long. but i said that already you must not
be reading for comprehension.
--
Nessa
=========
Subject: Night time barking.. Help needed
1 From: Nessa
Date: Wed, Sep 18 2002 5:50 am
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
Morning all,
Bagel and Hannah are doing well except for
night time barking in the house for play time.
Problem is it that when I am trying to sleep esp.
between 1 and 5. I CAN'T just let them bark it
out (because if I could it's no biggie and I can
sleep through it).
My problem is that my next door neighbors (I live in
a townhouse) don't appreciate it (and I can't blame them).
If they are very tired after a day at the park they tend
to sleep better but I can't get them to the park now
everyday because it gets dark earlier. I try to let them
run around a bit in the neighborhood with other dogs
but it's not enough.
oh that is when the owners and I are standing there.
we try to let them all play under supervision.
I can live with the banging (as Bagel slams Hannah
into the wall or Hannah throws one of her bones down
the uncarpeted steps and they waterfall down the steps
(there is no other way to describe dogs running down
wooden steps)
I know a tired dog is a good dog. I just don't know
what to do to hold off the barking. I know they are
playing and all I can think of is the line from the kids
book Go Dog Go (one of my favorites) is:
Now it is night
Sleep dogs sleep
(btw the drawing is of all these dogs sleeping in a big bed
on the pillows like humans with their party hats on)
I'm at the point where I am considering a soft muzzle to
prevent parking. Someone has offered the use of the
shock collar to teach no bark but I don't want to do that.
I'm too sleep deprived to do anything much.
HELP!!
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
2 From: J1Boss
Date: Wed, Sep 18 2002 7:48 am
Email: j1b...@aol.com (J1Boss)
Nessa wrote:
> Problem is it that when I am trying to sleep esp.
> between 1 and 5. I CAN'T just let them bark it
> out (because if I could it's no biggie
> and I can sleep through it).
What the (*&(*)(* are they doing awake between 1 and 5?
> I can live with the banging (as Bagel slams Hannah
> into the wall or Hannah throws one of her bones down
> the uncarpeted steps and they waterfall down the steps
> (there is no other way to describe dogs running down
> wooden steps)
Baby gate. Door.
Do NOT let them wander the house getting
more charged up.
> I'm too sleep deprived to do anything much.
> HELP!!
Nessa - I would seriously consider why these dogs
are up at 1-5 and even thinking they CAN be! They
need to be confined to your room, told firmly to knock
it off, and have that backed up with some sort of
correction if they don't.
If all else fails, tether then away from each other, but
honestly, if they aren't responsive to you telling them
to cut it out, we're back to the "bigger issues" problem.
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Maybe she can't scream at her dogs at night?
nessa CONtinues:
> A few weeks ago it started at 5:30 am and it has become
> increasingly earlier until this morning he started at 4:00.
> Ignoring him has proven to be futile, as has calming him
> down and rewarding him with a treat and, as a last resort,
> spraying him with water from a plant sprayer.
>
> This morning I even put him in his crate and took him into
> the bathroom with me as I prepared for work (normally he
> stays in a x-pen in the kitchen) but he only calmed down
> for a few minutes before the whining began again.
A 1 year old should be hanging out with you. Overnight,
around the house, and heck, even neat the bathroom while
you get ready for work..
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Subject: Puppy license expires
1 From: Nessa
Date: Fri, Jul 26 2002 5:57 am
Email: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
Yep, she is pretty much housebroken so I let her
out of the crate at night to sleep with me. But last
night, while I was asleep she ATE MY GLASSES.
It's my fault, I left them on the night table (where I
always leave them) so I could see when I got up.
I needed a new pair but I wanted to be able to get
them without having to miss work. Now, poof here
I am glassesless. thank goodness we have 1 hour
glass makers pretty close by.
Well she's crated now until this chewing phase is over.
Hannah will be 5 months old next week. Any advice
on how to deal with this other than the standard, no bite,
here chew this, crating, etc.
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
nessa's dogs got her EVICTED to boot <{}: ~ ( >
From: Nessa (ladybug0...@comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Sad News.. I need someone to take my dogs
Date: 2003-08-26 09:55:03 PST
well I'm not BLAMING my job it's ONE of MANY
things that I'm considering.
As for returning them to their respective shelters,
I don't want to split them up and I'm not going to
give them to just anyone. Possibly because I am
doing everything I can to keep them and drag this
mess out as long as possible in hopes that it will
work out.
=============
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
And then janet GOT MAD at Nessa for NOT MURDERIN
her fear aggressive hyperactive HOWETA CON-TROLL dogs
in her all inclusive KILL SHELTER <{}: ~ ( >
And here's janet an nessa's PREDICTABLE results:
nessa wrote:
> Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
> Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
> neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
> when he moved his head.
HERE'S HOWE COME:
Subject: Re: Jezebel is gone
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d176313-bb06-4898...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
She passed last night at 4 am. She had been having neck pain
which we had been taking her to the vet about since Sunday.
We woke up at 3 am to her throwing up and
there was a significant amount of blood in it.
We then had her sleeping between us while we figured out
what to do and at 4 am I got up to let my mother in law in.
She was breathing when I got up and when I came back she had
stopped. I tried to revive her with CPR, but did not succeed.
She was approximately one year old and I wish I had been
able to spend more than just the two short months with her.
Nick
------------------------
HOWEDY nick,
Looks like your "DOG WHEEESPERER" trainin BROKE HER NECK.
That happens pretty often here, DON'T IT <{}: ~ ( >
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
WELCOME BACK TO THE FOLD, nessa,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
murderin MENTAL CASE <{}'; ~ ) >
Nick
> A good leather leash is always the way to go. I do use nylon on my toy
> dog, but the big dogs all get quality leather. I use Master's Pride,
> http://www.masterspride.com. He custom makes my leather leads and
> collars. Worth every penny. My first purchase from him was made in 2000,
> that collar still looks like new and is butter soft and beautiful.
I agree that leather makes the best leash IMHO. I'd also like to
recommend http://leerburg.com/leashes.htm Not as attractive looking as
the leashes you linked to, but I'd vouch for their high durability and
strength. They are just simpler looking, with a more modest price tag.
I can't vouch for anything else he sells, but I really like his leashes.
Nick
Nick
> In article <hpqgj41fcp4fpqik7...@4ax.com>,
> Nessa <ladyb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
>>
>> to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
>
> Nah - there's always the handle to chew. Plastic-coated steel cable is
> much better.
Chewing handles are for small dogs. There's always the bed to chew.
Only slightly kidding.
Nick
Nick
<snip>
> Well, as one of my transportation devices happens to be a motorcycle,
> deal with tools that can take much more than a finger off, if
> mishandled.
No, you have been lucky enough to avoid the stupidity of others. I have
nothing against motorcycles, but make no mistake, you are at the mercy of
the actions of others while riding.
<snip>
> Collars are no problem - not easy for the dog to get at and chew. But
> leather? That's not only easily chewed through, it's edible! So your
> dog can thank you for the treat while chewing through the leash I guess!
> :-)
>
> Ted
Or you teach your dog not to chew on their leash. When is the dog
leashed and not supervised anyway?
Nick
Nick
<snip>
> Actually, MC accidents have been extensively studied, one of the best
> reports is here:
>
> http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html
>
> I think you might be surprised if you read it. MCs are no more
> dangerous than cars if properly ridden - the problem is way way too many
> people don't use them right as is well documented in the report.
>
>
>> I have learned how to deal with
>>> tools that can take much more than a finger off, if mishandled.
>>
>> It's more about other people (rather than your ability) when it comes
>> to donorcycles. I hope your swagger doesn't come back to haunt you one
>> day.
>>
>>
> No it is not, not according to the report. Item 4:
>
> "In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the
> accident
> precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases"
>
> It really is much more about your ability than other people. Seriously.
Like, say, my In-laws who were riding their motorcycle safely, following
all recommended and required safety procedures and still were in an
accident because of the other driver? Using it properly only ensures you
aren't part of the two-thirds. The accident is just as bad when you are
part of the one-third. Their accident was July 5th, they are still off
work on disability going through therapy. My father in-law will probably
always have to use a cane. All because someone else broke the law in
front of them and caused an accident. I've got nothing against you
riding a motorcycle, but don't kid yourself into thinking you can prevent
all accidents by doing your part.
<snip>
Nick
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
animal murderin punk thug coward active acute chronic
CASE,
"Nick" <the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ghjl17$o1q$1...@reader.motzarella.org...
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:23:58 +0000, Robin Nuttall wrote:
>
>> A good leather leash is always the way to go. I do use nylon
>> on my toy dog, but the big dogs all get quality leather. I use
>> Master's Pride, http://www.masterspride.com. He custom
>> makes my leather leads and collars. Worth every penny. My
>> first purchase from him was made in 2000, that collar still
>> looks like new and is butter soft and beautiful.
robin CRIPPLED two of her dogs JUST LIKE HOWE you done,
EXXXCEPT your own dog DIDN'T LIVE through it, remember?
> I agree that leather makes the best leash IMHO. I'd also
> like to recommend http://leerburg.com/leashes.htm
leerburg is a lyin animal murderin MENTAL CASE,
like yourself and your PALS here, nicky <{}: ~ ) >
> Not as attractive looking as the leashes you linked to,
> but I'd vouch for their high durability and strength.
INDEEDY~!
IN FACT, THAT'S HOWE COME you BROKE YOUR DOGS' NECK.
> They are just simpler looking, with a more modest price tag.
That so?
> I can't vouch for anything else he sells, but I really like his leashes.
He sells a NICE CON-TROLL collar for difficult dogs, nicky~!
> Nick
> Wow - ONE comment.
> NO.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
WHAT CHANGED, nicky?
> > Serviette?
> Touche?
> give NOTHING back.
> People make mistakes -
NOT HERE.
HERE they make ON-PUPORSES.
DUH-OH?
> Nick
An here's nicks' PREDICTABLE results:
Nessa
wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:57:19 -0500, Janet Boss wrote:
> > Nessa <ladybug0...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
>
> >> to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
>
> > Nah - there's always the handle to chew. Plastic-coated steel cable is
> > much better.
>
> Chewing handles are for small dogs. There's always the bed to chew.
> Only slightly kidding.
>
> Nick
Are you kidding, on Newf Net someone posted pictures of what their
Newf chewed. It included the running board from their 4Runner...
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active
MENTAL CASE,
"FurPaw" <furrea...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ghhsq3$cc4$1...@reader.motzarella.org...
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> I've decided though, that next week I'm going to have a UA
>> done at the vets. The business of her peeing right after coming inside -
THAT'S NORMAL for a ABUSED dog <{}: ~ ( >
>> and she didn't pee in the usual spot, she peed in a traffic
>> area and it was not a lot of pee - that has me bothered.
Perhaps you should GET USED TO IT?
>> Also, when I take her outside to pee she tends to pee
>> 2 -3 times even during a short 4 minute walk to the
>> end of the block.
THAT'S a SYMPTOM of anXXXIHOWESNESS <{}: ~ ( >
An THEN she comes inside an pisses AGAIN <{}: ~ ( >
>> I would think that if she had a full bladder and really needed
>> to "go" that she would empty her entire bladder at once.
Yeah?
> A UA is a good idea. I didn't realize that you haven't had a UA done.
> Frequent urination and inability to empty the
> bladder fully are symptoms of a urinary tract infection, and that
> possibility should be eliminated or treated.
Yeah. A vet check is ALWAYS a GOOD IDEA if
you don't know HOWE to HOWEsbreak your dog.
> The pie-plate suggestion was a good one - and depending on the size of
> your dog and your accuracy, a cup-sized measuring cup with a long handle
> also works. (Neighbors laughing as you chase the dog around the yard
> wearing your pajamas - that's a freebie. ;-) )
>
> Make sure you refrigerate the sample if you can't take it directly to the
> vet.
>
> FurPaw
funky foots knows ALL abHOWET veterinary treatments~!
ONLY liars dog abusers cowards and active acute chronic
life-long INCURABLE malignant maliciHOWES MENTAL
CASES post their LIES IDIOCY INSANITY and ABUSE
here abHOWETS <{}: ~ ( >
Here's FunkyFoot's an her own dead an deathly ill dogs
gettin anti psychotic medications for similar problems:
HOWEDY funky foots you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
rotten animal abusin punk thug coward active accute chronic
life long incurable malignant maliciHOWES mental case,
"FurPaw" <furrea...@gmaildog.com> wrote in message
news:6-qdnXx4Den6-Fja...@comcast.com...
> elegy wrote:
>> 4 hours to the minute (12:29, 4:29) later. only lasted about 15
>> seconds, and he recovered much more quickly. he's been whiney
>> ever since, but otherwise seems ok.
>
>> i'm sick to my stomach.
>>
>> i don't like this at all.
>
> I hope your vets can find an answer.
> Dylan started having seizures a couple of years before she died;
Naaaah?
> they were brought under control with phenobarbital.
Of curse. Seizures are caused by STRESS from abuse <{}: ~ ( >
> Sending lots of good thoughts for Harv and you.
WHAAAAAT, NO PREYERS?
> FurPaw
HOWEDY funky foots you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
animal abusin punk thug coward active accute chronic life
long incurable malignant mental case,
"FurPaw" <furrea...@gmaildog.com> wrote in message
news:hridnXR4h7ka_F7a...@comcast.com...
> tiny dancer wrote:
>> "FurPaw" <furrea...@gmaildog.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ff-dneRhgtzSm17a...@comcast.com...
>>> tiny dancer wrote:
>>>
>> snipped>
>>> For example, SSRIs, particularly Paxil, are used to treat
>>> Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, which is classified as
>>> an anxiety disorder.
>
>>> And they do have the 'side effect' of reducing anxiety.
>
>> Yes, I understand that, just as something like xanax does
>> have a bit of an anti depressive quality to it.
>
> Then why did you say, "I'm curious as to the designation
> of an SSRI as an 'anti-anxiety' drug though."
>
>>>> Something like xanax or klonipen? I thought those were occasionally
>>>> used on dogs for 'short term' treatments for things such as behavior
>>>> modification? I also 'thought' they had fewer negative side-effects.
>
>>> Depends on what you consider to be a negative side effect.
>>> Both have their share.
>
>> Yes, they do. I was thinking along the lines of the more severe side
>> effects, something like tardive dyskinesia and liver metabolization as
>> opposed to the milder, dry mouth, nausea or abdominal distress, etc.
>
> Tardive dyskinesia? The rate of this in humans is extremely low with
> SSRIs, much, much lower than it is with antipsychotics, and in some
> reports it's not clear that it wasn't a pre-existing condition or a result
> of a combination of drugs.
>
> Liver metabolization isn't a side effect - it's what the
> liver does to drugs (and many other substances).
>
> FurPaw
furpaw:
(SSRI, cognitive therapy)
otherwise, a fairly boring
and nondescript crazy person
Your own dogs have had EVERY STRESS INDUCED AUTO-
IMMUNE DIS-EASE a.k.a. The Puppy Wizards' Syndrome, in
creation. You coulda bought an paid for a full service commercial
kennel with the bucks you've WASTED on incompetent veterinary
malpractice care!
THAT MAKES YOU A EXXXPERT!
HERE'S PROOF!:
HOWEDY funkyfoots,
Add these to your posted case history of DIS-EASES
aka The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome caused by jerking
and choking your dogs:
"I'm out more than $5,000 in the past year because I
have one dog who developed a heart condition and
another one who required surgery for laryngeal paralysis
and went blind in one eye, reason unknown; in addition
to the surgery, a lot of diagnostic tests were required for
each one."
BWEEEEAAAAHAAAHAAA!!!
> but I also think I'd take her to a different vet, maybe even an internal
> medicine specialist if one is available to you. Has your vet done any
> blood work to look for liver failure, or anything else?
Yeah. His vet's been treatin her for 9 years, funkyfoots.
> Did she examine a stool sample?
AS STATED, you pathetic moron.
> Is there any sign of blood (either red or dark & tarry-
> looking) or mucus in the stool?
AS STATED, you pathetic moron.
> Two things raise a red flag for me: One is her weight loss
> despite being fed larger portions, especially if it was rapid
Naaaah?
> (how long did it take for her to lose 10 lb?). The second
> is her evident pain when she has a bowel movement.
Naaah? Hey funky foots? We DON'T KNOW if it's
PAIN or ANXXXIHOWESNESS that's causin the
whining when she SHITS. Evidently the dog DON'T
WHINE when IT SHITS in their HOWES <{}:~ ( >
> As others have pointed out,
You mean the OTHER MENTAL CASES, funky foots?
> that could be due to arthritis or hip dysplasia,
That's curiHOWES. There AIN'T NO OTHER CASE
HISTORY DATA SUPPORTING THAT IDIOCY.
> but would that account for the weight loss or the softer
> stools at the end of her bowel movement?
Of curse not. HOWEver, ANXXXIHOWESNESS WOULD.
> I hope you find an answer for your girl soon.
LikeWIZE.
> FurPaw
LIKE THIS:
"FurPaw" <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:I56dnbtG5NUeB-fb...@comcast.com...
> Charlotte wrote:
>> I`m feeling very bad that I`ve beaten her. But there really was
>> no way I could have found some reliable source as in my country,
>> animal rights and training isn`t an issue people care about...
>
>> But I want to be one of the few who care.
> Good for you!
That's curiHOWES comin from the likes of you
AIN'T IT, funkyfoots? Your own dogs have been
sufferin an DYIN from your own SHEER IDIOCY
and inability to train them. Perhaps you should tell
Charlott abHOWET your own DEAD DOG who
DIED from anaphylaxis from eatin a bag of granola
that he STOLE and your other SUCCESS stories
like DESTROYIN your HOWES till they're two
years old an gettin CANCER from STRESS from
your ABUSIVE TRAININ and garbage commercial
diet and toxic veterinary treatments?
> What country to you live in?
That's IRRELEVENT funkyfoots. The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret,
Monkey, SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard trains
dogs ALL OVER the WHOWEL WILD WORLD <{) ; ~ ) >
> This web site has links to many articles about dog behavior, problems,
> training. http://www.dogplay.com/Behavior/index.html
No, THAT'S Master Of Deception blankman, a other
pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin punk
thug coward active accute chronic life long incurable
mental case like yourself. She don't post her lies abuse
and IDIOCY here abHOWETS nodoGdameneDMOORE.
> How old is she?
That's IRRELEVENT you simply amazingly
incredible animal murderin IDIOT.
> Make sure she gets lots and lots of exercise,
That's ABSURD you freakin simpleton. Dogs DO
NOT HAVE behavior problems on accHOWENTA
lack of EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE they have
temperament and behavior problems on accHOWENTA
ABUSE like you and your punk thug coward mental
case pal Master Of Deception blankman recommend:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
> via walking and play.
BWEEEAAAAHAHAAAA!!!
> Tired dogs are much less likely to get into trouble.
That's SHEER IDIOCY you freakin MENTAL CASE.
> Try to anticipate her "bad" behavior, so that you
> can intervene and prevent it;
That's INSANE.
> then reward her immediately with praise or a treat
> for doing something "good" -
THAT REINFORCES BAD BEHAVIOR:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
> such as sitting down.
THAT will teach the dog to HATE bein trained:
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."
> If she is afraid of you because you have beat her, it
> will take a lot of patience to win back her trust.
THAT'S BUNK.
> Be kind and gentle with her, don't raise your voice,
You mean unless you're tellin IT "NO!"?
> give her lots of little treats, try to entice her to play
> and have fun with you.
THAT'S INSANE. You CAN'T BRIBE love
trust and RESPECT you pathetic MENTAL
CASE.
> Just like human babies, puppies require a lot of
> your time and supervision.
Yeah, if you don't know HOWE to pupperly
handle an train them they're LOTS of REALLY
REALLY REALLY HARD WORK <{}: ~ ( >
> It took you several years to learn how to behave; puppies
> don't even take as long as humans, but they still require a
> lot of effort.
Yeah, when you BRIBE CRATE and INTIMIDATE
them and AVOID trainin opportunities and give them
LOTS an LOTS of EXXXORCISE to CON-TROLL
their hyperactive behaviors.
> And using rewards, train her to sit, lie down, stay, walk
> on a leash, heel, come when called.
THAT'S HOWE COME THEY'RE REALLY
REALLY REALLY HARD TO TRAIN.
> This site talks about using a clicker to help with the training.
BWEEEAAAHAHAAAAA!!!
Master Of Deception blankman and lying
frosty dahl EXXXPERIMENTED with
clicker training to SUBVERT The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat,
Ferett, Monkey And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End
Training Method <{) ; ~ ) >
THEY FAILED to successfully CLICKER TRAIN
their own dogs. See "Clicker Project FIZZLES":
Message 1 in thread
From: Amy Dahl (a...@oakhillkennel.com)
Subject: Clicker retriever project fizzles
Date: 1999/06/19
Thanks to all who gave advice before. I figure I owe
you an update, but in some ways the news is not good.
Although I learned some really useful things from
the reading material that was suggested, somewhere
between the personality of the student and the manner
in which I applied the material, we didn't get too far
with the clicker stuff.
Basically although I kept the sessions shorter (fewer
repetitions/rewards than the 50-80 recomended by my
various sources), Rosie seemed to get bored. I went
from dry kibble to soaked kibble to pupperoni to hot
dogs in the attempt to keep her motivated.
As I said before she learned left-side walking in about
one session but I abandoned it. Then I worked on
targeting and on "speak." Rosie did well at both until
I tried to reward only when I used the cue.
I went back to giving the cue and rewarding every time.
Still, though, she'd get about two or three hot dogs then
grab either the target stick or something else to carry
around, or go over to the picnic table with the pile of
retrieving dummies and look meaningfully at them.
My suspicion is that this outcome is more a consequence
of Rosie's nature than my application of the method. I
have always been very good at reading and following
directions (and I had videos, too).
She, however, is bred from a long line of die-hard
retrievers who were selected, not only for their love
of retrieving, but for their potential to be trained
effectively by "show-'em- and-make-'em" methods.
Amy Dahl
BWEEEAAAHAAAA!!!
Here's the deal on clicker trainin:
From: "Dr. Von" <drv...@mindspring.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups?
> Jen "artbylucy" <artbyl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OMudnRS23OLEc7ze...@comcast.com...
> > Hello, Does anyone know of a dedicated newsgroup for
> > positive-only dog training, in particular clicker training?
>
> > Thanks, Lucy
Jen wrote:
> I would love to know of one as well. If there was enough people
> interested maybe we could start one. I've just started clicker training my
> dog and have been doing the positive training for a while now. I think
> it's great!!
Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list,
needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I
don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback.
The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate
to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any
more problems and there is no need for any more technique.
With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked
by the entirely practical and effective methods described
in http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u. Free download, nothing
sold, no mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free
support if needed.
With ADHD kids I provide similar information at
www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for
a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply
as directed and have happy healthy doggies or
kiddies.
Not difficult.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake,
choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of
affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities.
You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to
understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he
taught that there are outward and inward responding
organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if
you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training
methods effectively.
Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is
recommended and given only by deranged humans.
Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talking
dogs, cats, people, sheep, even husbands.
Dr. Von
---------------
gary wilcox of Massachusetts Institute of Technology
impressed professor SCRUFF SHAKE dermer of
the ANAL-ytic behavior department Master's Degree
Program at UofWI with his DELAYED PUNISHMENT
methods to augment his clicker training FAILURES.
Clicker trainin RELIES on offering and witholding
BRIBES which INCREASES anxiety to dangerous
levels which the critter will likely to REFLEX to
when asked even years later, to do the commands
he was originally "trained" to do.
In the event of additional stress, such as when greeting
guests at the door or meetin a dog in the park or seein
a kat, may push the dog over the top and instigate an
accidental bite.
> It's full of good advice on training,
No it ain't, she's a liar and dog abuser and MENTAL
CASE, like yourself and your punk thug coward pals.
Clicker trainin ONLY works when the trainer can
CON-TROL ALL the food in the environment and
provided the critter is HUNGRY, therefore EXPERT
clicker trainers FEED THE ENTIRE DIET as part of
the clicker training program.
Here's your pathetic miserable stinkin lyin plagiarizing
punk thug coward mental case pal diane blankman on
CLICKER TRAININ:
From: black...@dog-play.com
Date: 1999/12/07
Subject: Re: The e-collar debate on RPDB
Lynn Kosmakos <lkosma...@home.com> wrote:
: Amy Dahl wrote:
:> Another reason that group hasn't flocked to clickers
:> might be that, as it appears to me looking at Morgan
:> Spector and Gary Wilkes, all-new methods needed to
:> be devised to teach the same old stuff. Retriever work
:> is so incredibly sophisticated that devising all-new
:> methods is a seriously daunting task.
: I think you're absolutely right. There's a corollary in
: the almost universal use of purely positive training
: techniques in agility, a newer sport without a long-
: established body of work on how it "should" be done.
Hmmm, well "purely positive" is a bit of a mantra on
the agility training lists but I don't know very many
trainers who are successful and actually do "purely
positive."
In my observation it is mostly positive training, a
modest amount of negative punishment (withdrawing
of something the dog wants to correct unwanted
behavior) and most trainers do judiciously use positive
punishment although less frequently and in a much
milder form than is common in other dog sports.
Corrections are very common even in agility. For
example, if the dog self releases from a contact zone
the typical response is to correct the dog by picking
it up and re-placing it on the contact zone.
: I'm not familiar with Spector's or Wilkes' work in
: field training, but I've seen some real problems when
: people try to apply new techniques to areas they don't
: actively participate in. Both Gary Wilkes and
: Clothier/Rice have written and lectured on training
: a SAR alert and mantrailing, respectively. Neither
: work is respected by people who actually do those
: things, because it is simply incomplete and inadequate.
: It seems that people need to have some experience
: with the full training program before they can
: understand it well enough to redesign parts of it.
The biggest disappointment I had in that clicker class
I took was that the instructor, a SAR particiapant, did
not demonstrate the strengths of the clicker for particular
SAR related tasks such as scent work.
The sad thing was is that she failed to "sell" the
technique based on its strengths and thus lost the
opportunity to broaden the horizons of the participants.
I don't know what the problem was, except that likely
she may be a fine trainer but an inadequate teacher.
Diane Blackman
d...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAA!!
Here's YOU MURDERIN your own HOWESkat:
From: FurPaw (furpawn...@comcast.net)
Subject: Re: OT:urk..cat poop
Newsgroups: alt.support.menopause
Date: 2002-07-03 16:23:10 PST
<snip>
yecchh! Now, why was he demanding
that YOU clean it up?
Once I had a housemate who acquired a
stray cat while I was on vacation. Before
I knew about the cat, when I walked into the
bedroom that we shared, I thought, "Damn,
Sarah must not have done laundry for WEEKS!"
Shortly after that, I spotted the cat.
Further investigation revealed that the damned
cat had been sh*tting in my SHOES. Not Sarah's
shoes. MINE.
Not too smart of that cat, particularly since I'm
allergic and he was treading on thin ice in that
domain already. He clinched it a couple of days
later when I was carrying him out of the bedroom
(now forbidden territory), and the dog (big white
Shepherd mix) came trotting around the corner.
Cat freaked, clawed and bit me.
Sorry, but that kitty had to go to the animal shelter
the next day. (I would have had the same reaction
if the dog had bit me.)
FurPaw
-
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA!!!
That's not the only critter you've murdered.
> and you don't even have to use a clicker, just another sound,
> like clucking your tongue, to immediately reward the behavior
> you want to see.
The clicker method relies on OFFERING and
WITHOWELDING BRIBES till the critter
throw MINDLESS MEANINGLESS UNTHINKING
behaviors to RELEASE the REWARD from the
human Skinner Box <{}: ~ ( >
IT FAILS 10% of the time GUARANTEED,
even when done by EXXXPERT clicker trainers.
ASK karen pryor, she MURDERED her own
DEAD KAT when she COULDN'T clicker
train IT not to shit an piss in her stove top.
> Keep your training sessions short, follow them with play,
> and above all, have fun with your puppy!
You're a IMBECILE.
> http://www.clickertraining.com/
Oh, THAT'S karen pryor's website! You
might wanna ask gary wilcox of M.I.T.
HOWE COME he had to resort to DELAYED
PUNISHMENT when his clicker trainin FAILED?
AND you MIGHT wanna ASK HER HOWE COME
she MURDERED HER OWN DEAD KAT when
SHE COULDN'T TRAIN IT <{}'; ~ ) >
> FurPaw
Here's your own funky POSTED CASE HISTORY:
"FurPaw" <> wrote in message
news:pMudnX0-Cro...@comcast.com...
> LDRS News Glo wrote:
> > << From: "The Puppy Wizard" <<
BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> Medicate yourself, wimp-limp-wizard. You'll feel MUCH better.
> Killfile this guy and above all don't respond to him. Furpaw
furpaw:
(SSRI, cognitive therapy)
otherwise, a fairly boring
and nondescript crazy person
> His biggest thrill is getting a rise out of someone.
"FurPaw" <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:r_edndhNrs2Htz3Y...@comcast.com...
> elegy wrote:
>> or, you know, controlling the amount of food the dog gets.
>> mushroom would gladly weigh 500 pounds if i'd let him.
>> he's a boy who loves his food.
> We have two like that. Oppie, our yellow Lab, is an eating
> machine. He defines the term, "food motivated."
THAT'S on accHOWENTA he's INSECURE.
Dogs have the same eatin disorders as people
for the same reasons.
> And so is Chile, our chihuahua.
Naaaah?
> When she was about 3, our GSD, Dylan, was
> going through a finicky period.
Yeah. That was pryor to his POISON eatin stage.
> Chile duly observed this, and one day when Dylan didn't
> eat her breakfast, Chile did. We caught her just as she
> was licking the last molecules out of Dylan's bowl.
>
> Despite the look of utter bliss on her face, we thought
> she was going to explode!
> Chile has since told me that that was the only time in her life
> that she actually got enough to eat.
> Despite their complaints and doleful, waif-like, edge-of-starvation
> looks, we keep them where we can see the outlines of their ribs.
That's ABSURD.
> FurPaw
Here's HOWE COME your dogs
are "FOOD MOTIVATED":
Subject: Re: Why does my Retriever push his nose around
his food dish-does a little dance with his head
On 2006-12-29 11:07:10 -0500, "monkey" <kellieasp...@sympatico.ca>
said:
> Before and after eating my golden retriever pushes his food
> dishes with his nose-around it- as if he is doing a little dance.
> Does anyone know why this happens?? its really weird, it
> goes on for like 10-15 mins.. Any suggestions???
If it bothers you, take the food dish up. Have the dog sit
and wait for release before eating. If the dog wants to play
with the bowl, take the bowl up. Wait a while and try again.
I'd suggest that if the dog continues,
the dog might miss a meal.
If you're concerned about the dog not eating,
put the dog is a sit-stay, put some kibble on
the floor and release the dog to eat.
The simple answer is, "don't let the dog do that."
The dog has trained itself (and you) that this is
an acceptable ritual. If it is not acceptable, train
the dog to behave differently.
Does the dog only do this at your house?
In the regular feeding room? With you?
--
http://4dsgn.com
Subject: GSD people
From: YourDoggysMomma @HushMail.Com
Date: Tues, Jul 19 2005 8:42 am
HOWEDY funky foots,
FurPaw wrote:
> Paula wrote:
> > So what are GSDs really like and why is it that some
> > of you have become addicted to them?
Kinda like HOWE funky foot's DEAD DOG Dylan
GOT ADDICTED to SEALING and EATING POISON.
> I've had one, Dylan. Where to begin?
Let's BEGIN with the day Dylan ATE POISON
and GOT DEAD on accHOWENT of you couldn't
train him NOT to STEAL STUFF and EAT POISON.
> She had a mind of her own,
That so, funky foots?
> was smart, loyal, demanding, funny.
AND DEAD.
> She adored kids and put up with a lot of their pulling and
> tugging. She was very gentle with our Chihuahuas and let
> them chase her. She roughhoused with our Lab until both
> were exhausted. She was an alpha,
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!
> and it took a couple of years of training to persuade
> her that she wasn't going to push me aside -
INDEED? Is THAT HOWE COME
she STOLE and ATE POISON?
> but with maturity she became a wonderful companion.
You mean DESPITE DYIN at 9 years from EATIN
STUFF SHE STOLE and of curse, overcoming multiple CANCERS?
> --
> "Don't believe everything that you think." -
> Seen on a bumper sticker
> To reply, unleash the dog
From: "The Amazing Puppy Wizard" <TheAmazingPuppyWiz...@Yahoo.Com>
Date: 12 Feb 2005 13:18:27 -0800
Subject: Re: JE yadda yadda yadda
HOWEDY funky foots you ignorant cretin,
Thanks to dog lovers like you we got The Puppy
Wizard's SYNDROME where a "MILESTONE"
is a GSD livin till NINE YEARS OLD despite
his CANCERS and PHOBIAS and DEATHLY
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES.
Here's a few HAPPY posts from your
own miserable posted case history:
You're some kinda dog lover...
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:47:16 -0500
Subject: Re: White German Sheperd Problems
Hello furpaw,
"FurPaw" <furpawn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3CA5CAF7...@comcast.net...
> E. L. Ryan & Co wrote:
> > Scott Delibac <sdeli...@mitre.org> wrote in message
> > news:3CA22A77...@mitre.org...
> >> Im not sure where I failed, we have gone to training,
> >> and have tried for
>
> > This sounds all too familiar.
You mean you got the same problem, and are
willing to share what you've done to continue
the problem or changed your lifestyle to cope
with it.
> I second the training recommendation.
Of course! That's what helped you out sooo
much with your own problem dog. Or more
correctly, that's what CAUSED your problem
dog.
> And would add, give him a lot of exercise!
Yes, use excessive exercise to control out of
control behaviors cause you don't have effective
training methods.
> Your description fits our girl Dylan (not white, BTW) to a T.
Very interesting. White GSD's often have a
"genetic component" to their hyperactive behavior.
> We trained and trained and trained... several trainers, methods, lots of
> time spent with her.
Yes, an excellent idea, furpaw. Tell us HOWE you
were taught to jerk and choke and confine and
intimidate and excessively exercise your dog every
day for years, to FORCE IT to do as you make IT.
> Some may say that the methods weren't effective or applied properly.
Wel, let's just DISCUSS what you did, and EVEN
YOU will be able to see and understand the insanity
of your so called training methods that caused the
problems you've dealt with UNSUCCESSFULLY.
> Could be - we were novices
No. Could be you relied on DISINFORMATION
from our lying dog abusing Thugs.
That's what COULD BE.
> when it came to training a very dominant dog.
What DOMINANT? That's BULLSHIT. Dogs don't
have DOMINANCE issues unelss someone is
PROVOKING them. And then it's not dominance,
it's FEAR.
> We kept looking for nonpunitive methods that would
> get her under control.
BWWWAHAHAHAAA!!! You didn't FIND any, did you.
> Convincing her that she was NOT Alpha took a lot of work.
Yes, because you fought with, choked,
crated and intimidated her.
> By the time she was about three, she had turned into a real sweetheart.
There ya go! And your trainers TOLD you it might
take three years, instead of three days as in my methods.
> Getting a second big dog (male, nondominant, extremely
> playful) as a companion and playmate no doubt contributed.
Because your training methods DIDN'T help.
> Maturation no doubt contributed.
BECAUSE YOUR "TRAINING" METHODS DIDN'T WORK.
> And training certainly contributed, even though the results
> weren't always immediately obvious.
Ohhh, you said a mouthful. Using the lousy methods
you used caused other seemingly non related behavior
problems that you and your so called trainers aren't
bright enough to trace to the vicious methods you used,
RESULTING IN The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.
> FurPaw
What a DISMAL success story. GOOD LUCK.
From: FurPaw (furpawnews...@comcast.net)
Subject: Re: dog ripping up cushion
Date: 2003-05-16 07:58:16 PST
Clearly punishing your dog isn't working. And probably
never will. So I'd suggest you try a different tactic. You
don't have to yell and hit in order to get your dog to behave
well. But you may have to be a little more creative.
You've gotten him afraid of you+cushion, but not afraid of
cushion. So remove the cushion, so that the temptation is
no longer there, until you can get other aspects of his behavior
working with you.
Does he have "interesting" toys to keep him occupied, like a
Kong stuffed with peanut butter, or a Hava-Ball filled with
treats for him to extract?
If your dog is only "good" when you're "not his friend"
it sound like you've managed to teach him to be afraid
of you.
If he's peeing when you're shouting, he's afraid of you.
That's submissive peeing.
Is that the relationship you want with your dog?
How much time do you spend together? How much
exercise do you give him? How many hours a day is
he alone? It sounds to me like he may be bored;
our GSD was pretty destructive at that age until we
rearranged our schedule and spent more time playing
and exercising her.
Have you tried obedience training? Did you take your
dog to any classes to train both you and the dog?
Having an ongoing program of *positive* (no punishment)
training with your dog might go a long ways in improving
his behavior and your relationship with him.
There are a lot of good books on training your dog out
there. I used and like Brian Kilcommons' "Good Owners,
Great Dogs", but there are others that are more recent
and that emphasize clicker training.
I'm not a dog trainer, so others will be along with
more specific suggestions for you.
FurPaw
From: FurPaw (furpawnews...@comcast.net)
Subject: Re: de-lurking with puppy questions
Date: 2003-07-19 13:33:18 PST
Karlee in Kansas wrote:
> I've been reading here for a while (long enough to figure out the
> resident troll anyway) and have a few questions about my puppy
> I have an 7 month old Pomeranian puppy, adorable as all get out, but she
> won't play.
<snip>
Hi, Karlee -
Looks like your thread got hijacked :-(
I don't have a lot to contribute, except to say that some dogs
don't seem to have the play drive that others do. My male
chihuahua, Gordo, played with his sister as a puppy, but
wouldn't playwith us, except to fetch.
He's very submissive, and even the most gentle
approaches to play got him cowering. He and his
sister still play now and then (at age 12), but only
if they think no one is watching them.
Weird. He does like to chew on rawhide, however.
Is your dog's regular food kibble or soft food?
If you could induce her to eat a bit of kibble,
maybe that would be a start on the teeth problem.
She sounds like a sweetie!
FurPaw
From: ldrsnews...@aol.com (LDRS News Glo)
Date: 20 Sep 2004 02:05:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
<From: FurPaw
>
> Killfile this guy and above all don't respond to him. His
> biggest thrill is getting a rise out of someone.
>
> FurPaw
Gotcha, thanks. I just banned him from emailing
me too. Sheesh. Why is it that every news group
has to have at least one troll? Is it in the contract?
LOL Gloria
From: ldrsnews...@aol.com (LDRS News Glo)
Date: 19 Sep 2004 18:22:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
<< From: "Perry Templeton >>
<< But I would think the main thing would be,
>> especially in a male, neutered bs. not neutered.
I adopted JJ from Animal Care and Control, and he
was neutered about 3 weeks ago, a day before I got
him. I think that's part of the problem, he's still feeling
his "oats". It has tapered significantly around the house.
The problem now is taking him to the park. I hate it
when he starts humping the other dogs, especially the
small ones.
Most of the other dogs "tell him off", but he takes
it as a game and goes back. I'm sure it will stop
as he matures, I just thought someone would have
a suggestion for now when I take him to the park.
Thanks, Perry.
Gloria
From: flick <f...@starband.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:29:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
LDRS News Glo wrote:
> I adopted JJ from Animal Care and Control, and he was neutered
> about 3 weeks ago, a day before I got him. I think that's part of the
> problem, he's still feeling his "oats". It has tapered significantly
> around the house. The problem now is taking him to the park.
>
> I hate it when he starts humping the other dogs, especially the small
> ones. Most of the other dogs "tell him off", but he takes it as a game and
> goes back. I'm sure it will stop as he matures, I just thought someone
> would have a suggestion for now when I take him to the park.
> Thanks, Perry.
It can take a couple-three months for the hormones to
completely leave his system after neutering, is what I
understand.
flick 100785
> Gloria
From: ldrsnews...@aol.com (LDRS News Glo) -
Date: 21 Sep 2004 01:29:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
<< From: flick f...@starband.net >>
>> It can take a couple-three months for the hormones to completely
>> leave his system after neutering, is what I understand.
Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. LOL I'm
certainly going to stick with the little fellow. He's
very playful and very funny. I've had Boston Terriers
since I was 15 and they're sooo funny. Pugs are
funny also. I'm constantly being entertained by them.
Thank you for responding.
Gloria
From: FurPaw <furpawnews...@comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:24:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
LDRS News Glo wrote:
> I wrote a few weeks ago about my problem with my new
> 10 month old Boston Terrier, who is now 11 months. The
> problem was he was "humping" my two Pugs. It's subsided
> a lot.He does, however, still try to do it to dogs at the park.
> I have him on a 15 ft. lead, so I can monitor his behavior.
>
> Is there any trick to making him stop this unacceptable behavior?
>
> Again, he's MUCH better at home.
>
> He gets a LOT more supervised time with the other Pugs
> and he's behaving for longer periods of time.
>
> The squirt bottle works wonders with him.
>
> I can tell he's going to be a great dog. I've had 3 Bostons
> in the past and I've never had this problem. JJ is larger
> than most Bostons, he's 28 lbs and will probaby get a
> little bit bigger, he'll fill out. He's handsome, he's extremely
> playful.
>
> If he were the only dog in the house, he'd be a wonderful little
> guy. I believe he's also trying to establish some "top dog" issues.
> One good thing is none of them fight, they're all GREAT
> dogs. Two Pugs and a Boston is a handful, but once JJ
> gets over this...um..."hump" he'll be great.
>
> Advice about the humping in the park would be much appreciated.
> Thanks. Gloria
I wish I had the answer, Gloria! I have an 8 year
old yellow lab who was neutered at 9 months,
and he is still Mr. Hormones!
Yesterday in the park we met up with a gorgeous
reddish-brown and tan mixed female (part lab, weim?,
something with pricked ears?). She was spayed and
a year old.
After the obligatory sniffs, she started to try
to entice him to play and body-slammed him
a couple of times. He started to try to hump
the little flirt - and not just the sideways air
humps that he tries on our GSD - he was
grabbing her around the waist.
I yanked him off and put him in a sit - several times.
But this shameless little hussy kept backing up to
him with her tail in sideways position - an invitation
if I've ever seen one!
Luckily, his owner thought this was all hilarious...
but we sure don't know what to do about Mr.
Hormones' behavior!
FurPaw
--
"In a sense, we are hallucinating all the time.
What we call normal vision is our selecting the
hallucination that best fits reality."
- V. S. Ramachandran
To reply, unleash the dog
From: "The Puppy Wizard"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:07:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Boston Terrier "Humping"
HOWEDY funky foots,
"FurPaw" <furpawnews...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:47WdneMTJ_...@comcast.com
> LDRS News Glo wrote:
> > I wrote a few weeks ago about my problem with my new
> > 10 month old Boston Terrier, who is now 11 months.
And she's wrtiting AGAIN for THE SAME PROBLEM.
> > The problem was he was "humping" my two Pugs.
The PROBLEM is LDRS is a IMBECILE.
<snip idiocy>
> I wish I had the answer, Gloria!
You've NEVER had a "answer," funky foots.
IN FACT, your own dogs have had EVERY
behavior problem in creation.
> I have an 8 year old yellow lab who was neutered at 9
> months, and he is still Mr. Hormones!
Your dog is HYPERACTIVE on accHOWENT
of you're a DOG ABUSER, funky foots.
> Yesterday in the park we met up with a gorgeous reddish-
> brown and tan mixed female (part lab, weim?, something
> with pricked ears?). She was spayed and a year old. After
> the obligatory sniffs, she started to try to entice him to play
> and body-slammed him a couple of times. He started to try
> to hump the little flirt - and not just the sideways air humps
> that he tries on our GSD - he was grabbing her around the
> waist.
>
> I yanked him off and put him in a sit - several times.
Well THAT'S HOWE COME you can't TRAIN
your dog NOT to DO that, dog abuser.
> But this shameless little hussy kept backing up to him with
> her tail in sideways position - an invitation if I've ever seen one!
You've probably never had WON.
> Luckily, his owner thought this was all hilarious... but
> we sure don't know what to do about Mr. Hormones' behavior!
You're a MENTAL CASE, funky foots.
> FurPaw
Subject: Re: 8 month old misbehaving
Date: 2004-04-08 18:35:59 PST
HOWEDY funky foots,
Doesn't it ever EMBARRASS you that your own
dogs have had EVERY behavior problem in
creation cause you don't have the intellect to
HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog?
"FurPaw" <furpawnews...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Vd-dnRI1eOK...@comcast.com...
> Bill F wrote:
> > Looking for more suggestions on how to appropriately
> > correct misbehaviors as well as moral support.
>
> FWIW, our GSD, Dylan, was very destructive when
> she was a pup. When we were out of the house we
> kept her confined in a pen in a small room, with
> toys and chewies. One time when we came home
> she proudly presented us with the pieces of carpet
> that she'd ripped up (it was very old carpeting).
>
> She was around ten months old. And one time we
> tried confining Oppie (Lab) in the bathroom when
> we went out for a couple of hours.
>
> We returned to a door that was deeply
> gouged with his claw marks.
>
> He'd also tried to climb out the window (closed and
> locked) and bent up the aluminum miniblinds.
>
> Our mistake was that we hadn't adapted him
> to the bathroom.
>
> Stupid Mommy Dog!
> We took the tactic that other posters have suggested,
> that is, don't give the dogs the opportunity to be
> destructive by confining them with interesting toys
> and not much else.
>
> Sometimes, despite your best efforts, they manage to
> destroy anyhow, but mostly they'll sleep. The good
> news was that both dogs were out of their destructive
> phase by the time they were about a year and a half old.
> Good luck with yours... FurPaw
NHOWE WHO'S THE TROLL, funky foots?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
Nick
Yoda is the eternal prankster. He knows he isn't supposed to chew on
stuff, so when he knows you are specifically watching him he will slowly
open his mouth and deposit random pieces of furniture in it as he slowly
bites down. Common items are arm rests on sofas, table legs, rims on
coffee tables...
But the main incident in question involved our little dog Jezebel, who
unfortunately we only got to keep for about two months before she
passed. Early on we were using tethering to work on her house training
and we would move her from being tethered to us to being tethered to the
leg of the couch when we were watching TV so she could sit on the couch
with us or jump down to play with Yoda. Instead of going the obvious
route of chewing through the light nylon leash we tethered her with, she
went the more impressive route of attempting to chew through the couch
leg. Caught in the act of course.
Nick
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward
active acute chronic life-long incurable malignant
maliciHOWES MENTAL CASE,
"Nick" <the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ghk3t8$vvp$1...@reader.motzarella.org...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:12:06 -0800, Nessa wrote:
>
>> On Dec 8, 12:27 pm, Nick <the.longest.username.availa...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:57:19 -0500, Janet Boss wrote:
>>> > In article <hpqgj41fcp4fpqik7l0t7oo22fb26ef...@4ax.com>,
>>> > Nessa <ladybug0...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> I can think of ONE use for a chain leash.
A chain ain't necessary to BREAK YOUR DOGS' NECK <{}: ~ ( >
>>> >> to leash a chewing dog to my bed for sleep while training...
JUST LIKE HOWE nessa done to her DEAD DOG Bagel for three years.
LIKE THIS:
nessa wrote:
Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
when he moved his head."
WELCOME BACK TO THE FOLD, nessa,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
Subject: Training...
So is Hannah.
-----------------
SEE?
LIKE THIS:
> Wow - ONE comment.
> NO.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
WHAT CHANGED, nicky?
> > Serviette?
> Touche?
> give NOTHING back.
> People make mistakes -
NOT HERE.
HERE they make ON-PUPORSES.
DUH-OH?
> Nick
Nick
------------------------
HOWEDY nick,
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
SEE??
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>>> > Nah - there's always the handle to chew. Plastic-coated
>>> > steel cable is much better.
>>>
>>> Chewing handles are for small dogs. There's always
>>> the bed to chew. Only slightly kidding.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>
>> Are you kidding, on Newf Net someone posted pictures
>> of what their Newf chewed. It included the running board
>> from their 4Runner...
>
> Yoda is the eternal prankster.
That so, nicky? Didn't Yoda and your other
DEAD DOG attack each other regularly?
> He knows he isn't supposed to chew on stuff,
That so??
> so when he knows you are specifically watching him he
> will slowly open his mouth and deposit random pieces of
> furniture in it as he slowly bites down.
Would you say he was TRAINED HOWE to do that, nicky??
> Common items are arm rests on sofas, table legs, rims on coffee tables...
Oh, you mean the USUAL STUFF you CAN'T
TRAIN your own dog not to chew, nicky?
> But the main incident in question involved our little dog
> Jezebel, who unfortunately we only got to keep for about
> two months before she passed.
You mean, "Jezebel, who UNFORTUNATELY" *you*
BROKE HER NECK for her, nicky <{}: ~ ( >
> Early on we were using tethering to work on her house training
INDEED? Did you finally HOWEsbreak IT pryor to
BREAKIN HER doGdameneD NECK for her, nicky??
> and we would move her from being tethered to us to being
> tethered to the leg of the couch when we were watching TV
> so she could sit on the couch with us or jump down to play
> with Yoda.
And she LIKED that, did she, nicky?
> Instead of going the obvious route of chewing through
> the light nylon leash we tethered her with, she went the
> more impressive route of attempting to chew through the
> couch leg.
INDEED?
> Caught in the act of course.
And did you JERK an CHOKE her for that, nicky?
> Nick
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
kat
>
> "kat" <katl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MuednZgjsJ67L6TU...@posted.localnet...> > news:qe2n06...@news.ipinc.net...
> >>
> >> "Robin Nuttall" <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> >> news:OTXZk.409892$TT4.377664@attbi_s22...
> >> > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ah, OK I get it. Since 80% of casual dog owners likely don't know
> >> >> that and wouldn't care if they did, I think I can figure this one
out
> > by
> >> >> myself. Metal chains are about 25 cents more expensive per foot
than
> >> >> fabric,
> >> >> so the suppliers of leashes did the usual Great American Screw The
> >> >> Consumer trick of supplying a cheesier/cheaper leash, then marking
it
> >> >> up and claiming it's "better" using some baloney/bs excuse.
> >> >
> >> > Um, there are a lot of reasons not to use a chain leash. Cost has
> > nothing
> >> > to do with it. Chain leashes are dangerous for people. They're much
> > harder
> >> > to grip, and if a chain leash gets wrapped around a finger when a dog
> > goes
> >> > flying off after something there's a log more chance the owner will
> >> > lose
> >> > said finger. They're also harder to handle in general. There's a
reason
> >> > why chain leashes are banned at our training facility, and weight is
> >> > one
> >> > of the least of them.
> >> >
> >>
> >> So in other words they are banned because the PEOPLE can't handle
> >> them, not the dogs. I see now, it's still a cost savings issue,
though,
> >> it's
> >> just that they want to save on liability costs as they are worried
about
> >> being
> >> sued by numbnuts who lost a finger. I assume the same lawyers who sued
> >> because coffee was too hot were the ones that took that case?
> >>
> >> Well, as one of my transportation devices happens to be a motorcycle,
> >
> >
>
> Hee hee. :-)
>
> >
> > and
> >> I am still alive, (riding for 15 years now)
> >
> >
>
> Actually, MC accidents have been extensively studied, one of
> the best reports is here:
>
> http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html
>
> I think you might be surprised if you read it. MCs are no
> more dangerous than cars if properly ridden
I'll take my chances with a car vs. a motorcycle any day when it comes to a
collision with another car or a deer.
- the problem is way way
> too many people don't use them right as is well documented in the
> report.
>
> >
> > I have learned how to deal with
> >> tools that can take much more than a finger off, if mishandled.
> >
> > It's more about other people (rather than your ability) when it comes to
> > donorcycles. I hope your swagger doesn't come back to haunt you one
day.
> >
>
> No it is not, not according to the report. Item 4:
>
> "In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the
> accident
> precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases"
>
> It really is much more about your ability than other people. Seriously.
>
> > Not sure what this analogy has to do with chain leashes other than you
> > like
> > to take chances with your (and your dog's) safety?
> >
>
> Your response merely underlines the effectiveness of the analogy. You
> believe MC's are dangerous because of hearsay knowledge,
No I believe motorcycles are dangerous based on the *severity of
injuries/death* I have seen in motorcycle accidents. Btw I first heard the
term donorcycle when I worked in the medical field. Do you think that term
was coined because of 'hearsay knowledge'?
Kathy
Paul E. Schoen
>
> No I believe motorcycles are dangerous based on the *severity of
> injuries/death* I have seen in motorcycle accidents. Btw I first heard
> the
> term donorcycle when I worked in the medical field. Do you think that
> term
> was coined because of 'hearsay knowledge'?
>
> Kathy
Some people call them "Murdercycles".
I got my first learner's permit and license for a motorcycle in 1966, and I
drove one (Honda CA160) for about a year. But it was dangerous and
impractical in the winter, and I had a couple of wipeouts on ice. So I got
a car, and then a van in 1974, and another, larger CB350 just for fun in
1975 or so. Even though I drove very conservatively, I had a couple of
close calls, and I sold it.
Since that time, I have noticed that other people drive much more
aggressively and are often distracted by cell phones and multimedia
devices, and there seem to be many more accidents than there were 30 years
ago. Cars have become safer, and it seems that people are nonchalant about
fender benders and bumper thumpers which do not harm occupants of modern
cars, but would be very injurious to cyclists.
My brother was severely injured in two separate motorcycle accidents around
1982-1983. The first was his fault, but in the second he was riding to
school when someone claimed she didn't see him and smashed into him.
In the summer of 2007 my friend was riding his motorcycle near the Loch
Raven Reservoir, and an older driver hit him and mangled his foot so
severely that it had to be amputated.
Paul and Muttley
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:kb6p06-...@news.ipinc.net...
>
> "Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
> news:6psoekF...@mid.individual.net...
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
>> news:i95n06...@news.ipinc.net...
>>> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because it gave us
>>> an unarguable excuse to ban him
>>> from the TV
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable."
-------------------
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
>>> until the dog was housebroken,
HOWEsbreakin is a critters MOST NORMAL NATURAL
INNATE INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE behaviors startin at
the age of THREE WEEKS <{}: ~ ( >
There's ONLY 2 *(TWO) reasons HOWE COME a critter
would FHOWEL his own HOWES:
1. He's SICK
OR
2. He's UNHAPPY
Don't you?
Love the dog.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That
Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done
Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggies.
Fondly, Dr. Von
--------------------------------------
>>> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it
>>> up.
Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >
Dear Marilyn,
----------------
>>> Let's just say that it's rather an eye-opener to a 10 year old that
>>> wanting a dog and having a dog are two very different things.
Yeah. Seems there should be a manual...
>>> Muh hah hah hah haa!!
Abuse / Fear / Aggression / Hyperactivity / Shyness /
Depression / Suicide Attempts AIN'T Genetic Problems,
They're SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS,
Passed On From WON GeneratiHOWEN Of Abuser
To The Next,
Like The 100th Monkey Washin Fruit In The Stream.
After A While It's Not Just NORMAL, It's
-OBLIGATORY-
To Do OtherWIZE Would Be
DISRESPECTFUL
Of Your Parental Teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear, Hate, Reflex,
Self Will, Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment, Guilt,
Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness, Aversion, Attraction,
Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion, Change, Permanence,
Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition And Parental / ReligiHOWES /
Societal CONDITIONING;
*YOU ARE*
THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
There Are NO GRAY AREAS
Between
RIGHT And WRONG.
"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action
as separate, not the wise.
If any man knows one, he enjoys the fruit of both.
The level which is reached by wisdom
is attained
through right action as well.
He who perceives that the two are one knows the truth."
"Even the wise man acts in character with his nature,
indeed all creatures act according to their natures.
What is the use of compulsion then?
The love and hate which are aroused
by the objects of sense arise from Nature,
do not yield to them.
They only obstruct the path," -
- Bhagavad Gita,
adapted by Krishna with permission
from His OWN FREE copy of The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE Wits' End
Dog Training Method manual <{) ; ~ ) >
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
>> Okay - this was SO not funny.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
>> You let the dog pee on the floor to teach the son a lesson.
Perhaps ted never heard of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And
Horsey Wizards' "Peeing Squeaky Toy Technique" for teachin
HOWEsbreakin NEARLY INSTANTLY?
dr. phil uses THE SAME Technique <{}'; ~ ) >
> Your going overboard here. I'll repeat it, very simply. We told the
> kid to watch the dog because she is making a mess. He didn't. The
> natural consequence is that the dog made a mess. The kid's consequence
> is that he has to deal with it.
Layin blame an fault is HOWE COME you bums CAN'T HOWEtwit
the cunning of the domestic puppy dog DESPITE that you've SEEN
the EVIDENCE RIGHT HERE <{}: ~ ( >
> Were we supposed to be watching both the kid
> and the dog at the same time,
Yeah, that comes with the TERRORtory <{}: ~ ) >
> and when we observe the dog peeing, come
> flying in and correct everything?
Of curse not. You're suppHOWESED to PRAISE the dog an
make a brief, variably alternating, non physical distraction
INSTANTLY follHOWED by PROLONGED, NON PHYSICAL
PRAISE as you ask the pup if he wants to go HOWET an ask
the KID if he thought the puppy may like a walk?
> Perhaps you should google up "Helicopter parenting"
> Here, I'll do it for you:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent
>
>> What did the dog learn?
>>
>
> The question is what did the dog NOT learn? Yes, one more
> opportunity slipped by to help train the dog to not pee on the carpet.
> However, we aren't going to get the dog trained unless the entire
> family pitches in.
That's ABSURD and INSANE; dogs DO NOT have
"HOWEsbreakin accidents" they have ON PUPORSES.
> There's multiple training going on here -
> the dog isn't the only one being trained.
Teachin a child to pupperly care for an handle critters
DOES NOT include PUNISHMENT for failure to meet
some imbecilillic critteria of "RESPONSIBILITY".
If ANY WON "needs" PUNISHMENT it's the ignorameHOWES
parents who CAN'T TRAIN their own dogs an children <{}: ~ ( >
>> If you intentionally allow the dog to make these mistakes, you are
>> showing your lack of dedication to get the dog trained.
That's ABSURD and INSANE.
>> You certainly knew that the kid was not going to be the primary caretaker
>> for the dog.
That's IRRELEVANT and ABSURD and INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
> Of course. But, we aren't going to let our son completely
> off the hook either. He wanted a dog. He got a dog. Now
> he's going to have to learn to deal with it, as much as he is
> able to. And a 10 year old is certainly capabably of watching a dog for
> an hour.
Kinda JUST LIKE HOWE a "PARENT" is suppHOWESED to
be CAPABLE of watchin a dog AND a CHILD for a HOWER.
> If we take the dog back to the shelter, as another poster suggested would
> be the outcome, what are we teaching
> our son?
The SAME "lesson" marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog an
child abuser and lynn taught their children:
HERE'S HOWE COME lynne an marcel the imbecile idiot
liar dog an child abuser GOT RID his dog Mooglie and lynne
GOT RID of her last two dogs nearly as soon as she brought
them into her INSANE ASYLUM:
From: Lynne
Date: Sun, Oct 15 2006 8:27 am
Email: "Lynne" <unmonitored.em...@gmail.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
ugh. Curiosity got the best of me and I read that
crap on AOL. I feel dirty, and nauseous.
My unsolicited advice to all involved: ignore it. Ask yourself if
their opinions *really* matter to you. Besides, they'll find a new
carcass to gather 'round soon enough, bunch of vultures.
--------------
Re: Houston, we have a problem - dogs & cats
I probably will talk to the GR rescue again about adopting,
once the sting wears off. I actually plan to call them
tomorrow to let them know the Lab didn't work out and why.
I called the gal from the GR rescue on the way home with
Bailey Friday to tell her I had found a dog and was very
excited. She was excited for me. Everyone at that rescue
has been great to deal with.
Thanks, everyone, for all the words of support. I honestly
thought I might get flamed to hell and back for returning him.
I feel better, and do now believe I did the right thing.
I wasn't feeling that way yesterday at all.
I was also absolutely heartsick.
I was told he got along with cats, but I did not observe this myself.
Today I learned that the cats he has been around are barn cats and
they have never been indoors with him. I'm not convinced he had
any interaction with them at all, knowing barn cats. I guess I should
have been more specific?
I was clear that my cats are indoor cats and that one is a tiny kitten.
I also stated that we sleep in the bed with my dog and the cats. I'm
honestly not sure what else I could have said.
Obviously I should have asked more in depth questions.
Hindsite is a bitch.
One of my primary requirements in a dog is one who has been around
cats and who is disinterested in them. I made this clear up front and
we discussed this in respect to Bailey. Bailey was extremely aggressive
towards them.
It scared me.
Bailey is now back at the rescue.
I cried the whole way back with him, because he is perfect
in every other way (really amazing, actually), but our cats
are as important to us as are our dogs.
When I talked to the director of the rescue, she said she would
have beaten him for that behavior. That's not my style at all,
and I can't imagine that would be a good foundation for trusting,
secure relationship for Bailey.
I feel like I failed him. My daughter hates me. It doesn't help
that her hamster died while she was on her trip and I had to tell
her tonight.
Oh, and I ate the $300 adoption fee. Despite that, I donated
some of the things I bought for Bailey to the rescue. We're
going to take a break from looking for a dog. I'm thinking
of going to the shelter and getting a mutt puppy instead of
an adult... at least any behavioral problems would be of my
own doing. Judging by how Roxy behaves, it's nothing I
couldn't live with.
*sigh*
--
Lynne
Subject: Briar
1From: Lynne
Date: Thurs, Nov 30 2006 6:38 pm
Email: Lynne <unmonitored.em...@gmail.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
We had a long afternoon with the behaviorist and learned
quite a lot. Unfortunately, Briar is not going to be staying
with us. The behaviorist identified several concerns.
She feels certain that Briar and I can work together since we
are working together so well already. She said it is obvious
he trusts me and is very attentive to me (he really is a good
boy). She is concerned, however, that he gives absolutely no
warning before going into attack mode--which he did twice today.
She is also concerned about his bite inhibition, or lack thereof,
based on my wounds.
She said she doesn't think he is dog aggressive, but that he was
definitely resource guarding pretty much everything (including me)
and not only with Roxy, but also with her, the cats, and my kids
to varying degrees.
She said careful management was very likely to be a long term
obligation, along with continued work. The work I don't mind,
because it's fun, but having a dog I may never be able to trust
isn't something I'm willing to do. So that's that.
At this point I'm done with rescue. I have a much better
understanding of what these rescue dogs might need, and
while I thought I'd be doing a good thing, I realize I'm just
not cut out for it. So I am going to get a puppy from a shelter
in the Spring next year or the year after and raise him or her
to be well socialized and well behaved who will hopefully
be as happy with our lifestyle as Roxy is.
Or maybe I won't.
Right now I'm psyched on a single dog household again.
Flame away. I'm numb.
--
Lynne
-----------------
Subject: Re: Questions to ask adopters
Date: November, 2008
"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B447CC22CBDma...@130.133.1.4...
It has come to the point where Gen and I need to find another
home for Moogli. While nothing bad has happened yet, his
attitude towards Emilie and Sofia is going downhill pretty quick.
Physical problems have been eliminated, as he had an annual
checkup not too long ago.
If it was just me, or just Gen and I, I would have no problems working to
try to regulate the situation. Throw Emilie and Sofia into the situation,
and I no longer have that luxury. Gen has stated, in no uncertain terms,
that either I find a home, or he goes to the local SPCA.
Thus, it has come to the point where I have to make the decision of what
home do I send Moogli to. For those of you that do rescue home-visits,
what questions should I be asking.
Thanks.
And to keep myself in somewhat good mood, there
are some pics of Emilie and Sofia here
:http://picasaweb.google.ca/marcel.beaudoin
--
Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
------------------------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
At least they didn't BREAK THEIR DOGS' NECKS
like HOWE nessa an nicky done:
nessa wrote:
Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
when he moved his head."
HERE'S HOWE COME:
Subject: Training...
So is Hannah.
-----------------
Subject: Re: Jezebel is gone
<the.longest.username.availa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d176313-bb06-4898...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
She passed last night at 4 am. She had been having neck pain
which we had been taking her to the vet about since Sunday.
We woke up at 3 am to her throwing up and
there was a significant amount of blood in it.
We then had her sleeping between us while we figured out
what to do and at 4 am I got up to let my mother in law in.
She was breathing when I got up and when I came back she had
stopped. I tried to revive her with CPR, but did not succeed.
She was approximately one year old and I wish I had been
able to spend more than just the two short months with her.
Nick
------------------------
nick wrote:
> NO.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
WHAT CHANGED, nicky?
> > Serviette?
> Touche?
> give NOTHING back.
> People make mistakes -
NOT HERE.
HERE they make ON-PUPORSES.
DUH-OH?
> Nick
HOWEDY nick,
Looks like your "DOG WHEEESPERER" trainin BROKE HER NECK.
That happens pretty often here, DON'T IT <{}: ~ ( >
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
SEE?
> I'll tell you - we are teaching him that pets are disposable.
INDEED?
> Well, you may feel different but ultimately it is more important
> to teach our son that a pet ISN'T disposable than to teach the dog
> to stop peeing on the floor. Obviously, we want both.
INDEED?
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently
after preliminary contact with parents that NO
treatment of children was required, and almost
ALL cases SHOWE a remarkably shortened period
for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in one to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
> If we do not allow our son to fall on his face a few times - meaning,
"Meaning" you don't get to PUNISH him for FAILURE to
SUPERVISE a puppy nodoGdameneD better than *you*
could supervise a CHILD and a puppy <{}: ~ ( >
> if he screws off when he's supposed to be watching the dog and the dog
> craps on the floor and he has no consequences as a result - then he isn't
> going to learn anything about caring
> for a dog.
Of curse, the child MAY LEARN to HATE the puppy <{}: ~ ( >
> Sure, we know he's going to screw up - because he's a kid, not an adult.
So, get ready to PUNISH IT <{}: ~ ( >
>> But I'm sure you have an excuse for that as well as for your kids' bad
>> behavior.
We'll SEE:
> You seem to love dismissing arguments you don't like with the loaded word
> "excuse" You might try actually
> using some analysis and logic to make an actual argument one of these days
> rather than just using a loaded word, it might be an eye-opener.
Yeah?
>> I have had kids. And dogs. All at the same time.
judy is a dog an child abusin MENTAL CASE.
>> If you can't teach your kids that the dog isn't allowed to eat anything
>> from the table -
INSTEAD of just TRAININ the DOG not to accept
STUFF IT AIN'T SUPPHOWESED to take??
>> and that they aren't allowed to feed him anything from the table,
It only takes a couple minutes to TRAIN the DOG not to accept it.
>> what do you think your chances are for making and enforcing other rules -
>> rules that have good basis. Don't smoke - it's bad
>> for you. Don't speed. Don't drink until you are of legal age. Don't
>> drive until you are of legal age.
Oh, an don't let's forget DON'T CHOKE the dog <{}: ~ ( >
>> Yes, kids break rules.
Naaaah?
>> And then you deal with it.
Ahhhh, back to PUNISHMENT again~!
>> But YOUR commitment to the rule and to the expectation that they will
>> obey it should be 100%.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> It makes no difference what our commitment to the rule
> and expectation of obedience is. Kids do what they do and then deal with
> the results. Our kids knowing that
> doing something against the rules is going to get them a
> consequence doesen't really make much difference when they decide to do
> something on the spur of the moment.
Well then, perhaps it's your "CONSEQUENCES" that FAIL??
> I think you are attributing adult behavior here to children.
No, it's EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE; we're
ACCEPTING chldish behavior from suppHOWESED adults.
> Perhaps you should read some textbooks on child development.
INDEED?
> Most children do not consider and predict the consequences
> of an action before doing it. They learn from the consequences
> of their actions.
CITES PLEASE?
> But, that learning is in proportion to the consequence, and in proportion
> to the reward of the action.
THAT'S INSANE~!
> If a kid for example plugs a metal key into an electrical outlet (as I did
> once when I was probably around 6 years
> old) and gets the crap scared out of him
Then the KID would be a PUSSY, wouldn't IT <{}: ~ ( >
> when there's lots of bright sparks for a second followed by
> the fuse blowing, that's a pretty serious consequence.
ONLY if the KID was a PUSSY.
> And on the flip side, there's really no reward
> for plugging in the metal key -
UNLESS of curse, you're a KID <{}'; ~ ) >
> unless they have a fetish for making sparks or something.
LIKE THAT~!
> Thus, the kid makes an internal conclusion that reward value
> is very low, bad consequence value is very high - so they aren't going to
> do it again.
THAT'S ABSURD~!
Any KID in his right mind will accept that OBSTACLE
and work arHOWEND it till he blows up the HOWES.
> But, if a kid for example drops a scrap to the family dog under the table,
> then it's an entirely different setup.
You COULD let the dog CHOKE to death on it.
> Let's say the punishment is loss of ice cream for dessert -
Let's say the KID tells you to "SHOVE IT"??
> a typical punishment someone might use.
You mean, "a typical punishment" a IMBECILE might use.
> Well the kid goes to make his internal conclusion and what
> he comes up with is that the reward value is high - you get the fun of
> seeing the dog gobble down the scrap, plus the
> positive feedback of the dog obviously enjoying what your doing - but you
> also get the bad consequence value is high
> too - you lose ice cream.
That's ABSURD and INSANE~!
It'd be FAR WIZER to TEACH the KID a lesson by
allHOWEING the dog to CHOKE TO DEATH on it
like HOWE dana p's DEAD DOG Suzie done
who choked on a apple core on accHOWENT
of they tried to get it away from her
and she ran and swallowed and choked to
death on it?
LIKE THIS:
Subject: Please help me...Suzy is gone.
From: Dana P
Date: Wed, May 11 2005 10:44 am
Email: DisneyDanaNoS...@webtv.net (Dana P)
I really need some help here. Yesterday,
as I was at home alone with my 2 boys, my
youngest son dropped an apple core by accident,
and my precious Suzy grabbed it before my son could pick it up, and she ran
with it, trying
hard to eat it before she had to give it back
or share it with her pal Apple (my 9 mo. old
pug), it got lodged in her throat.
I did everything I could to get it out, I
gave her mouth to mouth, I did everything,
but I couldn't save her.
She went limp in my arms.
I made it to the vet, yet it seemed like
my car was standing still. They couldn't
get her little heart to start.
Please find it in your hearts to hold
back on telling me how I should have trained
her not to grab food from the floor, my heart
is breaking, and I have enough guilt for the
world to share right now.
I loved her so.
What I need to know is if there is any
way to help little Apple. I'm scared to
death that she will greave herself to death.
She has only known life with her best buddy
Suzy. They played together at every waking
minute. Not a day went by when they didn't
have a tug of war over a stuffed animal, or
a wild chase through the house.
Is there anything that anyone can tell
me to do to make this easier on her. Any
advice is greatly appreciated.
to my Suzy, you were the sweetest girl I
ever knew. I see your face everywhere I turn.
You will be missed more than you can imagine.
Rest in peace my little love.
ºoº Dana ºoº
--------------
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> On the scales the kid uses on weighing things, the bad might
> just cancel out the good, thus your punishment may ultimately
> have no real deterrence value.
In order for PUNISHMENT to WORK you gotta make it
SEVERE, CONSISTENT and INSTANTANEHOWES <{}: ~ ( >
> The lesson may not stick.
Yeah? UNLESS it sticks like GORILLY GLUE done to perry
a.k.a. bentcajungirls' DEAD DOG Maggie <{}: ~ ) >
> That's why it might take a few weeks of losing ice
> cream before the kid actually learns anything.
Well then, depriving the child of ICE CREAM AIN'T a
sufficient PUNISHMENT to enhance LEARNIN <{}: ~ ( >
> Because, ultimately the reward value of seeing the dog gobble down the
> scrap drops, because it becomes boring
> if you have fed the dog 10 or so times.
That's ABSURD.
> While the reward value of the ice cream likely is
> going to take a lot, lot longer to become boring.
That so?
Wouldn't it make more sense to deprive EVERY WON
of ice cream and television if the CHILD fails to live up
to adult EXXXPECTATIONS??
> Adults look at things a lot differently - adults can run scenarios
> presumptively before doing an action.
You mean like discerning the VALUE of PUNISHMENT?:
---------------------
> Kids eventually learn how to do this as they grow
> up, if their development has proceeded properly.
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME they lock their elderly
parents in nursing HOWESES and jerk an choke an
shock an MURDER their own dogs <{}: ~ ( >.
>> I expect kids to follow the laws and to not do things that
>> hurt other people. Feeding the dog from the table is a bad thing FOR THE
>> DOG and the kid should not do anything
>> that hurts the dog.
Hmmm. "Feeding the dog from the table is a bad thing
FOR THE DOG" but JERKIN an CHOKIN an SHOCKIN
them IS A GOOD THING FOR THE DOG and the child
should LEARN to be GOOD to IT <{}: ~ ) >
>> If I said "do not feed the dog from the table", that rule would be
>> enforced. 100%. Break that rule and you will have to leave the table.
>> Now.
Perhaps if the child "breaks the rule" EVERY WON
should leave the table. NOW. <{}: ~ ) >
> Consider that one of the reasons the kid may be feeding the
> dog under the table is that they simply are bored with dinner and aren't
> really hungry. So, what the kid has succeeded here
> in doing is when you tell them to leave, is manipulating you into doing
> exactly what they wanted you to do.
Yeah. Kinda like HOWE the dog manipulates the adults
to JERK an CHOKE an SHOCK an LOCK IT in a box
and IGNORE ITS CRIES <{}: ~ ( >
> Maybe they didn't want to eat the meatloaf or broccoli or whatever, and
> were just looking for an excuse to be told
> to leave. That is why these definite rules that you seem to favor don't
> always work in all situations with children.
Well then, perhaps you should FIND SUMPTHIN that WORKS??
>> I think it's that lack of requiring 100% that is making
>> it so difficult for you to train your dog.
THAT'S INSANE~!
You pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal murderin
MENTAL CASES can't train your dogs OR children on
accHOWENTA your PUNISHMENT FAILS <{}: ~ ( >
> That is actually a good suggestion. Keep in mind that I am
> not home all day, there are other people in the house. They
> may not be doing exactly what I would do with the dog and that may be part
> of the problem.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> It's worth investigating and I will do that.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> If you can't say to a 10 year old "Do NOT feed the dog
>> at the table. It's not good for him to get human food and it encourages
>> him to continue unacceptable behavior" and have him then follow the rule,
>
> ONE of our kids is 10. The other is 6. The 10 year old, possibly.
> Espically the more involved in her care he is. The 6 year old, forget it.
Well then perhaps you should GET RID of the KIDS you CAN'T TRAIN??
>> then you need to reconsider whether or not you can train a dog - who
>> can't be explained the reasoning for a rule. I am assuming that a
>> healthy dog is important to your son and that the reasons for not feeding
>> at the table would matter to him.
THIS IS INSANE~!
> This is a very slippery slope to go down. Kids learn by observation.
> We have, for example, repeatedly said over and over that chocolate
> is poison to dogs ever since she came into the house. This is impressive
> enough to both kids.
>
> But, saying that feeding table scraps is unhealthy is a whole different
> ballgame, because frankly many table scraps are NOT unhealthy. For
> example, if the kid drops a green bean on the floor and the dog eats it,
> that's not going to result in the dog being rushed off to the dog hospital
> to get her stomach pumped, or result in her throwing up her stomach
> contents on the floor. Neither would feeding eggs, meat scraps, fat,
> and a whole host of other foods. The danger of some of the scraps is
> long term, cumulative damage, and of other scraps like the beans not
> only are they not damaging, they are the opposite.
Looks like the discussion is OVER, eh, dog lovers??
> If we tell the kids that feeding scraps to the dog is unhealthy and
> they do it anyway and observe no ill effects in the short term, then that
> just undercuts our authority - so that when it comes to something really
> serious, like chocolate, or grapes, or something like that, they
> are a lot less willing to believe us.
THAT'S ABSURD~!
> The analogy here is Billy Blonde
<SNIP IDIOCY>
> This is the problem with the table scraps. An adult, like
> you or me, can read the analogy and get it. A child simply cannot, their
> brains have not yet developed to the point that
> they can.
Here's the "ADULTS" makin EXXXCUSES for not bein able to
TRAIN their DOGS or their children -- PATHETIC <{}: ~ ( >
>> How is this rule any different than saying "Do NOT throw your basketball
>> in the living room. You will break things and hit people
>> with it"?
> Because (at least in our house) if you did throw a basketball in the
> living room, you might be lucky to get 1 bounce out of it before something
> WOULD break. And, in fact, both kids have thrown
> stuff in the house and seen the immediate results.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
>> Tell your kids not to feed the dog at the table. Remove the dog from the
>> table area when people are eating. It's pretty simple.
You mean INSTEAD of just TRAININ the dog not to take STUFF?
LIKE THIS?:
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpaulbou...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.
My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls
:-)
I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction anytime
the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed with immediate
praise. It worked a treat.
The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is food
left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go out and
leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.
Paul
--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
SEE??
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpand...@zfree.co.nz)
Hello Marshall,
---------------------------
Paul
----------------------
> Um, removing the dog from the table area by crating is exactly what we ARE
> doing - and you jumped all over me when I said that was the preferred
> solution.
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> Now, your advocating it? Now who's being 100% consistent?
Pssst?? Hey teddy? You're dealin with MENTAL CASES, like yourself~!
>> Kids - and dogs - need rules. And they need to know
>> that the adults will enforce those rules. 100%.
That so??
> And adults need to know that regardless of 100% enforcement, kids will
> still break the rules.
Yeah. So, let's AGREE: DOGS an CHILDREN CANNOT BE TRAINED.
>> You need to be the grownup. You got a dog. Either commit yourself to the
>> effort you need to train him or find him train her, or find her, another
>> home.
JUST LIKE HOWE so many of your fellHOWE MENTAL CASE
PALS have had to do with their difficult dogs and children <{}: ~ ( >
>> Because what you're doing isn't making it any easier
>> for the next owners to housebreak him.
That's ABSURD and INSANE.
> You seem to like making a lot of assumptions here. Is it really true that
> in your world, people regularly get rid of dogs because they have a hard
> time training them?
Would you like to see a few dozen POSTED CASE HISTORIES??
> Seems rather a defeatist attitude to me.
INDEED? WELCOME TO THE FOLD, teddy <{}: ~ ( >
> Ted
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
"The day may come when the rest of
the animal creation
may acquire those right
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
"A Cheerful Heart Is Good Medicine, But
A Crushed Spirit Dries Up The Bones,"
Proverbs 17:22
Disciple Paulie Sez:
"No One Understands How Wits End Training
Really Works; They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method
That Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation
Is Built On Trust And Understanding.
I've never forced my dogs to do anything,
I tell them they are good dogs and they
seem to follow me, onceI told them they
were bad dogs and they ran away from me,
now I only ever tell them they are good dogs
and they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say
"good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and
I bet you'll find your dog thinking then responding
everytime.
A Bit Of Respect Works Wonders,
The Same Rule Applies
To Every Aspect Of
The Relationship With Your Dog.
Obedience And Affection Are Not Related,
if They Were Everyone Would Have
Obedient Dogs.
I Have Found Giving Dogs "Payment" In Advance i.e.
"Sam sit goodboy" Makes The Dogs WANT TO RESPOND,
After All, All Dogs Want To Be "Good Dogs" And If
You Tell Them They Are Good Then They Feel An
Obligation To Obey Your Request.
Telling Sam He's A Good Dog AFTER He Sit's
Apart From Being Too Late Is Also A Gamble
Because If He Doesn't Sit Then There's No
Positive Interaction.
Paul
-------------------------
ANY QUESTIONS, People?
"Ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you mad." -
~Aldous Huxley.
All Truth Passes Through Three Stages.
First, It Is Ridiculed.
Second, It Is Violently Opposed.
Third, It Is Accepted As Being Self-Evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer-
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours
The WORLD'S CRUELEST Trainer,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
*M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C*
*G-R-A-N-D*
*M-A-S-T-E-R*
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat,
Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ;~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME)
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard
E-mail:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
@HotMail.Com
TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard @HotMail.Com
MSN, AT&T Or AIM Messenger @:
TheSimplyAmazingPuppyWizard @HotMail.Com
ThePuppyWizard @BellSouth.Net
Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR
This is gonna be particularly EMBARRASSIN so I suggest
you DO NOT REPLY and if you do, PLEASE snip those
EMBARRASSIN cross posts and EXXXTRANEHOWES
TEXT <{}: ~ ) >
"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
news:6pvf91F...@mid.individual.net...
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:i95n06...@news.ipinc.net...
>> She was fine until about 4 or 5 pm when she peed on the floor again - at
>> the time, our oldest kid (the one who was begging for a dog the last 4
>> years) was supposed to be watching her, but was instead watching TV.
Perhaps teds' kids are RETARDED like nessa's?
nessa wrote:
my kids are not angels. I've had my share of problems.
ONE of my kids is emotionally disturbed. He knew rules.
he followed rules or he had consequences. even at 24 he
is still fighting the rules and still suffering the consequences
of disregarding the rules, even if he does not understand it
much more than a 10 year old, we do it every day....
one is on the autistic spectrum (the 24 year old)
he's in a group home. there are some problems but he's
not murdered anyone yet and we've not killed him either."
one is ADHD (the 22 year old who BTW GRADUATES
from DREXEL this year) one is learning disabled (my 16
yr old girl child stepdaughter who came as the bonus child
with the current husband)
two no longer live at home but they learned quickly NO means NO"
>> Actually my wife and I were secretly pleased at that because
>> it gave us an unarguable excuse to ban him from the TV until
>> the dog was housebroken,
THAT'S CRUEL and INSANE behavior. HOWEver, at
least ted didn't BREAK HIS OWN DOG'S NECK.
LIKE THIS:
nessa wrote:
Sadly my big beautiful black Bagel went to Rainbow
Bridge on September 18 due to a severe debilitating
neck injury that left him unable to walk and in pain
when he moved his head."
AND LIKE THIS:
> Wow - ONE comment.
> NO.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
WHAT CHANGED, nicky?
> > Serviette?
> Touche?
> give NOTHING back.
> People make mistakes -
NOT HERE.
HERE they make ON-PUPORSES.
DUH-OH?
> Nick
An here's nick, janet an nessas' PREDICTABLE results:
Subject: Re: Jezebel is gone
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d176313-bb06-4898...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
She passed last night at 4 am. She had been having neck pain
which we had been taking her to the vet about since Sunday.
We woke up at 3 am to her throwing up and
there was a significant amount of blood in it.
We then had her sleeping between us while we figured out
what to do and at 4 am I got up to let my mother in law in.
She was breathing when I got up and when I came back she had
stopped. I tried to revive her with CPR, but did not succeed.
She was approximately one year old and I wish I had been
able to spend more than just the two short months with her.
Nick
------------------------
HOWEDY nick,
Looks like your "DOG WHEEESPERER"
trainin BROKE HER NECK.
That happens pretty often here, DON'T IT <{}: ~ ( >
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
WELCOME TO THE FOLD, teddy~!
WELCOME BACK TO THE FOLD, nessa,
you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin animal
murderin MENTAL CASE <{}'; ~ ) >
>> and since she peed on his watch this time, we didn't have to clean it up.
That so?
> Okay Ted. This story really eats at me. And you aren't going
> to like what I'm going to say because it doesn't have anything
> to do with housebreaking your dog. Listen. Don't listen. I'm
> still going to say it.
We'll just IGNORE judy's LIES IDIOCY INSANITY and
ABUSE an go directly to her own POSTED CASE HISTORY:
HOWEDY judy a.k.a. queen mother, you pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active accute
chronic life long incurable malignant mental case,
"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
news:5oectuF...@mid.individual.net...
> "Rocky" <3d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
> news:Fri99D4D58A26A95au...@rocky-dog.com...
>> My dogs would come last in a head-to-head obedience
>> challenge with all the dogs represented here, anyway.
Yeah. Just like HOWE matty's deathly ill dog Rocky
done in his agility club of twenty teams <{}: ~ ( >
> Hah! I'll take that challenge!
HAH!
> Like you, I put a lot more emphasis on an off-
> leash recall than I do on heeling.
That so?
> I would like all dogs to walk with a loose leash all the time
Of curse. OtherWIZE they'd CHOKE themselves.
Or rather, YOU'D be CHOKIN them <{}: ~ ( >
PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME they won't heel with you?
LIKE THIS, judy:
"Greg M. Silverman" <gmsNOS...@no.umn.edu> wrote in message
Hey, Mr. Wizard, or Alchemist or whatever your alias
of the day is, have to say that our dog heels much
better than she did. This is after reading and
implementing the bit in your "Wits End" treatise.
And she's a royal nutter (but then again, aren't they all?).
Cheers! Greg--
--------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS, judy:
From: <n> To: "Jerry Howe"
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leadership Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had him
for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book training
with him.
Where I used to say "come" and then say "good boy"
when he obeyed, I have reversed it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work. He was very confused at first,
wondering what he had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks, N
-----------------------------
SEE?
AND LIKE THIS, judy:
"Hennie van Dalen" <h.vandalen11***removethis...@chello.nl>
wrote in message news:TlsCb.2895$7U1.7896@amstwist00...
RTFM is age-old computer lingo.... It stands for "Read The
F***ing Manual" ;-) I used the manual and it works very good!
But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on A4-size
paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching him something
new takes about 30minutes (depending on what to teach offcourse)
My other dog (a 7year old staffordshire terrier-mix) is a bit
slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad
dog"whenever he did something i didn't want him to do, or
it might be the age.
Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn
something new: he wants me to bring along the can
filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a
very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a
"good dog", and never a "bad dog"
There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved.
For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min's without
beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog,
he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask
permission" first, and to my surprise it worked!
My dogs never went to puppy-training (lucky for them),
maybe this helped too.
Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html
-- Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/
------------------
SEE??
> but it doesn't appear to be important enough to me to make it happen.
Oh?? Well THAT'S on accHOWENTA you don't know
HOWE to train your dogs to WANT to be with you.
LIKE THIS, judy:
Paul
----------------
SEE??
HERE'S HOWE COME, judy:
From: "Paul B" <NOS...@clear.net.nz>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 2
Subject: Re: It doesn't work. Do it harder.
"Chris Williams" <k9ap...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16008-3E5...@storefull-2171.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Interesting question posed in this article: why do humans
> persist in doing things that are unsuccessful?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.
cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/15/HO240381.DTL
There may be a few reasons, sometimes it's ignorance,
simply a failure to realise what you are doing is
futile and you need to adopt a different approach.
Sometimes you may be learning a new technique and need
to experiment with it to be sure it's not just the way
you are applying it that is the problem, you may need
to try slight variations of the same technique to see
if there is a different result before you dismiss it completely.
Sometimes you are doing the only thing you can think of,
even though it's not working but you simply don't know
what else to do.
Either way as long as you are able to reflect and learn
from your experiences and move forward then a few failed
attempts are all part of the learning process.
My best example was teaching both dogs to walk to heel,
alone and together in the brace position. I was determined
to teach them without any aids (choke, prong collars or
treats etc) and without forcing the heel by jerking or
restraining them using a leash, I knew it could be done,
despite the scorn of friends and even family who "knew better"
(but had never actually trained a dog in their lives).
It took me a while trying various ways to entice them to
want to walk beside me, someone else at the dog park whose
dog appeared to heel very well ( but held it's ears back
and tail down and looked very intimidated about being at
heel) suggested I give up and use a choke collar like him,
but I was obstinate.
One day like a switch it all fell into place, first one
dog then the other then both together all walked to
heel, then I tried without leads and it worked, the dogs
were happy and so was I.
I had persevered and succeeded and learnt a lot in the process.
People said "it took you long enough" but now I could
teach heel easily and quickly when I need to do it
again. And now when I walk my dogs and I see the same
scornful people with their dogs still pulling on the
choke collars saying "heel, heel" it's me who has the
last laugh.
Paul
-----------------
SEE??
> but it doesn't appear to be important enough to me to make it happen.
Oh?? Well THAT'S on accHOWENTA you don't know
HOWE to train your dogs to WANT to be with you.
> Perhaps if they were bigger it would.
You mean on accHOWENTA they'd rip your
arm off or pull you to the grHOWEND?
> They may be out at the end of their leashes but not jerking.
Right. Just STRANGLING themselves. Or rather,
YOU'D be STRANGLING them <{}: ~ ( >
> What we have is good enough for me.
That so?
> I think it's true for all of us that we emphasize what
> is important to us in our own households and lives.
That's curiHOWES. The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret,
Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard SEZ it's ALL equally
important <{}: ~ ) >
ANY force applied to the collar is CONtraWIZE to
apupriate care and handling of your dogs regardless
of their SIZE on accHOWENTA it MAKES THEM
INSANE <{}: ~ ( >
> My dogs have to come into the house and sit on the rug by the door.
Yeah? professor "SCRUFF SHAKE an SCREAM 'NO!' into ITS
face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer's little CHRONICALLY ILL, hyperactive, obsessive, compulsive
masturbator Maxie is trained to look left and right when he takes off
or puts on his glasses and wipes his own feet when enterin his HOWES.
> This is an absolute rule.
That so? Oh, you mean like all your other "absolute rules"
you can't train your dogs to do UNLESS you ENFORCE
them every time they DON'T follHOWE your "absolute
rules", queenie?
> Sit on the rug. Get a treat. Every time you come in the door. Even
> when the dog only seems to have gone outside for the express purpose of
> coming back in and sitting on the rug,
To elicit a reward from their human Skinner box <{}: ~ ( >
> he still gets a treat for sitting.
That so?
> Oh yeah, and the dog who *didn't* go out also gets to come
> over and sit on the rug and get a treat. Or maybe even stay on the couch
> but look expectantly while the treat is brought over to you.
Wouldn't THAT decondition your dogs to settin on the rug, queenie?
> We're still negotiating whether dogs sitting on the rug when
> *I* have gone outside and come back in means a dog treat.
That's SHEER IDIOCY <{}: ~ ( >
> Amusement factor alone seems to vote "yes".
That so? That's PATHETIC.
> This morning, we're working on Spenser's "Quiet" command.
Oh, you mean, a other "absolute rule", queenie?
> He feels the need to bark at a stray cat that has appeared in the area.
NO PROBLEMO! You can train your dogs to NOT bark
at innocent defenseless dumb critters IF you know HOWE.
> It's a white cat and it sticks out like a sore thumb wherever it is.
Kinda like your idiotic posts, eh, queenie?
> "Quiet" doesn't work for this.
Naaah? Pehaps you're usin the wrong word?
> (Although it does for Sassy.)
Perhaps you should use a hand signal?
LIKE THIS:
/'¯/)
,/¯ /
/ /
/´¯ /' '/´¯¯ ·¸
/'/ / / /¨ /¯\
('( ´ ´ ¯/' ')
'\' \ _.·´
\ (
\ \
> Distraction,
"Distraction" NEVER works UNLESS you know HOWE, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> turning him away from the door,
Physically involving yourself REINFORCES the "BAD"
behavior JUST LIKE "distraction", queenie <{}: ~ ( >
> none of the usual stuff.
Oh, you mean the "USUAL STUFF" that DON'T WORK, queenie?
> He is incredibly stubborn when he feels that he knows best.
No, "he is incredibly stubborn when" YOU DON'T KNOW
HOWE to pupperly TRAIN your dog, queenie. You can
EXXXTINGUISH ANY behavior NEARLY INSTANTLY
simply by DOIN EVERY THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY
OPPOSITE of HOWE you do it, queenie <{}: ~ ( >
> I admit, we had been getting lax allowing him to continue on past "Quiet"
> as long as he did it in his "indoor voice" - which meant mostly grumbling
> and soft woofs.
You mean, on accHOWNETA you COULDN'T TRAIN him NOT TO.
> The presence of the cat has made it impossible
> for him to continue at that level.
Oh? Oh, so you're gonna TRAIN him not to do that nodoGdameneD more?
> So we had to reinstate the One Word Command.
Ahhh, you mean like "QUIET~!"?
Oh, THAT didn't work, did it <{}: ~ ( >
> After that, he is picked up and placed in the bedroom,
BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!
> behind the closed door, for as long as sixty seconds.
THAT will INCREASE anXXXIHOWESNESS <{}: ~ ( >
> At which time, he is let out again and is allowed to remain at the sliding
> door, watching, as long as he is quiet.
And that works EVERY TIME, does it, queenie?
> He is presently sitting at the door, ears back and every muscle tense.
Ahhh. THAT will cause him to become DEATHLY ILL
from STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES
a.k.a. The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >
> He clearly feels that we are being completely unreasonable
Not so much "unreasonable" as ignorameHOWES, judy <{}: ~ ( >
> and that we obviously don't understand the danger of the
> cat and the value of his barking to prevent certain disaster.
Of curse. PERHAPS you should PRAISE him an then
he'd STOP NEARLY INSTANTLY and wouldn't do
that nodoGdameneD more, queenie?
Barking is a SYMPTOM of SUMPTHIN WRONG. You
can EXXXTINGUISH barkin NEARLY INSTANTLY
unless he's SICK, simply by PRAISING the dog.
LIKE THIS:
"Estel J. Hines" <ejhi...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:w86dna9lBfN...@comcast.com...
Until i read the Jerry method of Bark
reduction, it went something like this
with our 11 month old puppy "Yoshi"
Yoshi: Bark, bark,
us: HUSH Youshi
Yoshi Bark, bark......................
us: Hush Youshi
Yoshi BARK, BARK, BARK, ..........
it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking
We decided to try the Jerry method:
Yoshi: BARK, BARK
US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it?
Yoshi Bark, Bark
US: It's ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them.
Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that.
I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
can praise him, to deal with things like this.
Thanks Jerry
ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
Papers, and learn how to live with our son
"Yoshi", whom we love very much. --
Best Regards,
Estel J. Hines
==============
AND LIKE THIS:
"Brandy Kurtz" <KraftyKur...@wmconnect.com>
wrote in message
news:2f66e35d.04073...@posting.google.com...
Hello everyone! We have a 2 1/2 year old male
Well I just printed out the Amazing Puppy
Wizard info, so I haven't actually started
to train yet.
Today a salesman knocked on the door, and Pokey
was going balisstic. I calmly go to the window
to see who it is, and off-handly say Good Boy,
It's a stranger, Good Boy.
Pokey shut right up, gave me a quizical look,
and came and sat beside my feet!
OMG, I could not believe it!
I was totally floored, as this has been his
behavior since a pup. Just wanted to update,
and Pokey and I are hitting the sack...;)
Brandy
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi.
Please understand that I do not know Jerry and
have spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of
his business. I simply want to thank him publicly
for one of his tips, with regards to separation
anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a
stuffed animal and then say good bye to my
own dog, but I am usually a very open minded
person, so I tried it. Well, lo and behold-
the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques,
and personally I think everyone who constantly
criticizes him is not understanding his logic.
Thank you Jerry!
----------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:06 AM
Hello.
I never posted here (or anywhere) before.
I never trained or owned a dog before this
year.
I downloaded the Wit's End, read it, corresponded
with Mr. Howe and trained my dog to come and to
stop barking in a weekend.
Our dog, Jake, had been treated with kindness the
whole time we had him, about 10 months, but his
earlier life is unknown.
I worked on the hot-cold exercise for about 30
minutes when he suddenly "got it". After that
he came to me every time with no hesitation.
I used the cans filled with pennies to teach him
not to bark. If he now starts to bark, I go to the
door or window, say "Good Boy, its' alright" and
he usually calms down right away.
A couple of times I had to get the cans
out again to reinforce the behavior.
We feel a strong bond with this animal
and he is very eager to accept our love.
So with all the vitriolic spewing going on,
I have to believe Mr. Howe is right.
His method worked for us.
I don't know if it would have been quite
as effective if we had tried another method first.
Florence
------------------
SEE?
From: "Marisa" <mari...@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002
Subject: one day
I started some of the simple techniques in
Jerrys manual today.
The family pack exercise.... come command.....
that's all so far though.
I did get the proper equipment as well.
20 foot leash, cans with pennies partially
crushed, flat collar, etc.
I have also stopped any negative reinforcment
such as loud "No" and "Bad girl Sonique!"
(Sonique is my Jack russell) and holding her
back, which I normally MUST do or she'll jump
and nip sometimes, but always jumping and barking.
Already tonight some has started working.
When someone came to the door, Sonique
went nuts as usual.
I said "Thank you Sonique!"
"It's o.k. girl, thank you!"
And we got a total of about 6 barks and then
no jumping on guests, no biting, growling
or the worst, the continued barking she
normally does.
She accepted my praise, and trooted around,
still excited over guests, but she was WAY
more under control.
Even my roomates noticed this.
She repeated this same thing
without all her normal fuss later
when another two friends came over.
So I do need more time, going to keep with it
another day, another month whatever until I
know I am getting results, although I must say,
so far I am impressed with my dog.
She really responds to praise better than
she ever has responded to treats as distraction
from the guests and doorbell, or me yelling
"bad girl! go away now! shoosh up!" all the time.
I am also verbally praising her everytime
she makes eye contact with me. so hopefully
things will continue going well!-
- Marisa
From: "0513chgo" <0513c...@nixspam.net>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe
Marshall Dermer wrote in message ... >
In articleSsyE8.20247$t8_.12...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
> "Marisa" <mari...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> So I downloaded your Wits End today,
>> and I have started reading, and I am
>> planning on using it from now on and
>> see what results I get.
> Marisa you have much hard reading
> ahead of you because Jerry's manual
> is verbose and spends about as many
> lines condeming other approaches as
> describing what to do.
Please leave Marisa be and let her be happy
with training her dog the way she wants to!
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe
He CAN'T.
He's fighting for his career and reputation...he's F'd.
Jerry.
--------------------
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-10 13:34:38 PST
In article <HRI27.3908$187.184...@news-rep.ab.videon.ca> "Jenn"
<d...@try.it> writes:
> Hi Lynn,
> I used to have a barking problem with my
> German Shepherd Dog a couple of years ago.
> I tried several things recommended to me by
> different trainers, and nothing was working.
> When I read that section of Jerry's Manual,
> I thought the same way you did.
> "What???? PRAISE her for barking?" It sounded
> counterproductive, but I had tried everything else
> I'd heard so I thought I'd try it too.
> Next time she went nuts at a person walking by
> outside, I told her, "Good job! Good girl! You are
> such a good protector!" And instead of continuing
> the barking, she came to me for a belly rub! She
> will still bark (she's a guard dog, that's her job),
> but after one bark, she knows she's done her job
> to warn me by my praise, and she stops.
> Jenn,
Could you be so kind as to post here the
section from Jerry's manual where he
writes that you should JUST praise the
dog when it barks?????????
As I recall, I thought he first advocates
distracting the dog from barking, with
keys or the soft sound of pennies in a
can, before praising.
Perhaps you can tutor me regarding
Jerry's system.
Thanks in advance!
--Marshall Dermer
PS: I don't read Jerry's posts but I look
forward to your post.
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Clicker training "stay"
Date: 2001-06-21 20:25:38 PST
In article <iqtY6.5456$rA2.1119...@news-rep.ab.videon.ca>
"Jenn" <d...@try.it> writes:
> Hi, DogStar716, sorry you feel this way about
> me. I hope I can change your mind in the future,
> as I love reading your posts, and value (and
> have used) some of your advice.
BWWWWWEEEJAJAJAJAJAJAAAAA!!!
> As for my post to Jer, I am just attempting
> to get a plain answer about something instead
> of a trash- fest. I just want to know if it can be
> done.
> Jenn Standring
I'm not Jerry but sure you could use a clicker to
distract a dog but that is not the purpose of a clicker.
You can also use a teaspoon to cut steak
but that is not the purpose of teaspoon!
--Marshall
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>
wrote in message news:9ihtee$7ib$1...@uwm.edu...
Hello Marshall,
> Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
> a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
> that this may not work and so distraction
> is recommended as a back up procedure:
> There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!
Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.
Subject: Jerry's Dog Training Manual + I Am Willing To
Take Jerry's Theory On How Dogs Think As A Likely One,
Simply Because The Dog Training Methodology He Describes
(Based On His Suppositions) Works So Well.
Hi Marshall,
I'll do my best to answer you... please bear with me, ok? :-)
Marshall Dermer wrote:
> In article <3B4B013F.914E0...@hotmail.com> 2tails
<wagginta...@hotmail.com> writes:
> <snip Dave's response>
> > Not to mention, the manual has a lot regarding how dogs
> > think, which can't be explained just by a short description
> > of "what to do." The psychology behind the method is
> > needed so that the person reading it will be able to figure
> > out their dogs' problems by themselves. Problems, as in
> > "why is my dog doing 'X,'" and figuring out ways to address
> > it, if necessary.
>
> >regards,
> >Lisa
> Dear Lisa,
> How would you know if Jerry's analysis of "how dog's
> think" is correct? That is, if thinking is some invisible
> process inside of a dog's head how would we know if
> Jerry or anyone is correct?
Of course, it isn't necessary at all to know how dogs think,
or even if they *do* think. I believe that they do, but of
course I can't prove it, and neither can Jerry.
The heart of the matter is, the discussion in the manual
regarding "how dogs think" is part of a wholistic approach
to dog training. It helps to comprehend the reasoning
behind the methodology. The methodology works quickly
and easily, therefore lending credence (as far as I'm concerned)
to his theory of how dogs think.
It's the same sort of thing regarding theories of whether
the earth revolves around the sun, or contrariwise. Is it
possible to send a rocket to the moon, based on the
assumption that the sun revolves around the earth?
The answer is, of course, yes, though it would most likely
be enormously complicated. The better solution is to begin
with the theory that the earth revolves around the sun.
In other words, the simplest answer or description is the best,
even though it may not be empirically provable. And so, I am
willing to take Jerry's theory on how dogs think as a likely one,
simply because the dog training methodology he describes
(based on his suppositions) works so well.
I hope this helps you to understand from which
perspective I say the things that I do about Jerry's
method and manual.
regards,
Lisa
--------------------
> I expect that any time we will be hearing from his
> constitutional lawyer who will argue that a well-
> armed militia (including a schnauzer's bark) is necessary for our defense.
OR you might be hearin from The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And
Horsey Wizard EXXXPLAININ HOWE COME when
you allHOWE dogs to bark CAUSES stress induced auto-
immune DIS-EASES a.k.a. The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome
and CITING dozens of POSTED CASE HISTORIES of
hyperactive barkin EXXXTINGUISHED NEARLY INSTANTLY
simply by PRAISING them.
LIKE THIS:
"melisande" <melisand...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rLo08.751$0H.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> I haven't quite finished reading the free chapter on
> your website,
It's moore than a chapter, it's a comprehensive,
total, complete, gestalt method to train all animals
to any level you desire.
> but it already worked miracles with our three dogs.
Excellent.
> The barking at the door has diminished so much
> that, well, frankly, we're stunned.
My methods work faster than any others, anywhere at
any price, including the thirty five level of medical
grade static like stimulation devices and pronged
spiked pinch choke collars our "experts" here love so
much.
> We were sort of on the same page with you to begin
> with (no crates, no choke chains).
Good. Crates aren't inherently bad, only
the way they're misused.
> A lot of what you say reminds of my dad's techniques
> (he's an 84 year old dog lover,one of those about whom
> people say, "dogs really like him." He's
> never had a badly behaved dog.
Good. I've got a lot in common with folks
who are gentle and treat animals kindly.
> We'd never heard of the noise emphasis,
You mean the sound distraction and praise techniques.
> but the overall plan makes great sense.
Yes, one of my students Paul B wrote an excellent post
recently I'll include it at the bottom. It'll explain
HOWE the distraction and praise process works from his
POV as an experience handler using my methods.
> I did have a question. The hardest part for us to
> implement is the verbal praise only.
Why? That should be spontaneous and in association
with every glance towards you and every thought.
> It's so hard not to pet and stroke the dog
> (especially our seven month old).
Oh. Patting is O.K., only not in conjunction with a
thought or command, as it will interrupt the thought
process and may lock the dog's thoughts on an
inappropriate idea.
> Can you give me the rationale behind that?
It's called positive thigmotaxis, the opposition reflex.
Like if we're walking our dog and want to prevent him
from interacting with another dog, and we pull back
on the collar, that often triggers the dog to go out of
control.
As long as there's contact on the collar, the dog will
continue his original thoughts about interacting with
the passerby. Then because the dog is out of control,
the handler needs to further force restraint, making
communication with the dog's MIND, impossible.
> It will help me modify my own behavior.
Any time your dog is close enough to be patted is
fine to pat him, as long as we're not working with a
command or thought we want him to process.
> Anyway, your approach is amazing.
Yes, it's caused quite a stir here. If my methods are as
effective and fast and safe as I claim and my students
confirm, that pretty much means that all of my critics
are DEAD WRONG, and all's that's left for me to
do is shovel some dirt over them over and let 'em push
up daisies.
> Melisande
-------------------
> That and I'm sure we will also be hearing from the Geneva Convention
> concerning the inhumane treatment received when he was forced to remain
> behind a closed door, totally isolated in the bedroom for a full seven
> minutes (in dog time).
What you and your ignorameHOWES pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active
accute chronic life long incurable malignant mental case
pals do to your dogs IS against the "ABSOLUTE RULES"
of the Geneva Convention, judy <{}: ~ ( >
Your pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin punk
thug coward pal BINACA bethFIST'S DEAD DOG Kavik
DROPPED DEAD from BARKIN.
MOST of your miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin punk
thug coward active accute chronic life long incurable malignant
mental case pals dogs are DYIN or have DIED from STRESS
INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES a.k.a. The Puppy
Wizard's Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >
> But, he's quiet.
You mean, till he starts again <{}: ~ ( >
Perhaps you should get a nice shock collar or
spray him in the eyes with BINACA, judy?
> Judy
HOWEDY judy a.k.a. queen mother,
"Judy" <dou...@cableracer.com> wrote in message news:
5nptdjF...@mid.individual.net...
> "labtek" <aguy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1192726596.6...@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> Not sure how I cross-posted,
>
> You crossposted when you responded to JH.
INDEEDY. And LUCKY THING for THAT, otherWIZE I'd
maybe not have been so HOWEspitable towards him <{}: ~ ) >
> He had added the other groups
INDEEDY. THAT'S done so's we can SHARE the GOOD NEWS!
That GOOD NEWS bein, that you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
animal murderin punk thug coward active accute chronic life long
incurable malignant mental cases ain't got NO INFORMATION
that dogtek can use for his doggy behavior problem other than to
KILLFILE the ONLY source of INFORMATION available on
accHOWENTA I've proven you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
animal murderin punk thug coward active accute chronic life long
incurable malignant MENTAL CASES to be FRAUDS COWARDS
an LIARS <{}: ~ ) >
Ferstaich?
> and by not deleting them - as I have done -
You're a imbecile, a liar, a dog abuser, a coward, and
pathetic miserable stinkin active accute chronic life long
incurable malignant MENTAL CASE who HURTS
INTIMDIATES MUTILATES an MURDERS dogs.
> you kept it up.
Viagra, you think, judy?
> Judy
You got any DOG TRAININ ADVICE, judy?
Youi're a IMBECILE. Here's a family with three
dogs fightin. You answered them the same same:
From: adair...@yahoo.com (dorothy)
Date: 13 Nov 2002 20:47:02 -0800
Subject: Re: 3 puppies bro and sisters fighting
HOWEDY queenie,
"queenmother" <jruss...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:q7NA9.35$5C2....@news1.epix.net...
> "dorothy" <adair...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7965f1a8.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > i cant give one of them back. i want to keep them all
> > just train them not to be aggresive. but what is with
> > all the chatter in the reply?
> > is this normal for all questions that get asked on here?
> This is a discussion group,
EXCELLENT! Let's DISScuss?
> not a question and answer forum.
Seems every time you answer a question, SOMEbody
comes along behind you and rubs your nose into the
shit you spout.
> Yes, you can ask questions and may get answers.
That's the problem... Go ahead. Start DISScussin.
> But you also will be discussed.
Because the FACTS are beyond you.
> This involves asking questions back and talking
> about things that may not be specifically in your post.
Let's try to stay on topic. The question was and still IS,
HOWE to get three fighting puppies to get along, not the
OP's family, not the breeder's "ethics," not separating
them and locking them in boxes, not nuthin but HOWE
to train three dogs to live like PALS in the same HOWEShold.
Like as if a lying dog abusing doubletalking Thug coward like
you would know about ethics, morals, principles, integrity,
human decency or HOWE to handle a dog behavior problem.
> There are also a couple of trolls
I think we just IDENTIFIED one, queenie. That be YOU.
> who may or may not have responded to you.
You read my posts first, you mealy mouthed doubletalker.
> I can't tell since I have them kill filed
BWWWAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
> and never see their posts.
You're a LIAR.
> You can choose to ignore any responses that you want.
Oh? Well THANK YOU for the warning.
> ~~Judy
> Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose.
Now, to answer the question, queenie? HOWE do you
make three fighting puppies PALS?
-----------------------
From: "Judy" <doub...@cableracer.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:11:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Approaching you dog with affection and via versa.
"Judy" <doub...@cableracer.com> wrote in message
news:3pibtgF...@individual.net...
> Spenser has a practice of flying through the newspaper
> into your lap if you're reading it rather than paying
> attention to him.
After I typed this, I got thinking - laughing about this
is definitely a small dog thing! Can you imagine one of
Melinda's dogs doing the same thing?
Although I wouldn't put it past most boxers I've known!
And at least a few of the Dobes!
Spenser likes to curl up with his feet tucked into hand.
And then he either tucks his chin also inside my hand or
rests it across my wrist.
Both he and Sassy also grind their teeth just a little
as they relax just before sleep.
It's pretty cool.
~~Judy
-------------------------
Dogs GRIND their TEETH from STRESS from ABUSE,
JUST LIKE HOWE PEOPLE DO, judy <{}: ~ ( >
HOWEDY judy aka queenie,
Judy wrote:
> "Gwendy5281" <wendy.winkelm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1127761953.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Good grief! You do like to ramble and paise yourself don't you?
> Gwendy - ignore the idiot..
You're the IDIOT, judy. Your POSTED CASE HISTORY
of jerking and choking your "shelter rescue" dog
will PROVE IT, as we'll all see in the following:
> If you have a kill file, use it.
You're a little EMBARRASSED, eh judy?
> Most of here never see his posts.
Then HOWE COME I'm the #1 topic of discussion
as any searh on MY Archives will prove?
> Watch also for the crossposting that he inserts
> sending your message and his response to several
> other groups -
That's PARTICULARLY HUMILIATING and
EMBARRASSING, ain't it, judy. You've been
reading and posting your IDIOCY and ABUSE
for years on my forums.
> many of them totally unrelated.
No, they're all related, judy.
> You are going to have a great time with your new beagle.
You mean, in two years when she finally HOWEsbreaks IT, judy?
> Lucky dog that he found you.
"LUCK is for SUCKERS," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >
> Now. Housebreaking a previously kenneled beagle.
Dogs HOWEsbreak INSTINCTIVELY at four weeks of age, judy.
> Going to take some time and patience on your part.
Only if she follows your ADVICE, judy. HOWEsbreaking
can be accomplished in WON DAY if we DON'T DO what
you and your punk thug coward mental case pals recommend.
> He is used to peeing fairly near his bedding area.
That's absurd, judy.
> He not only doesn't know what he's doing is wrong,
That's ABSURD, judy.
> he believes it is acceptable.
That's INSANE, judy.
> I assume that Sam manages to poop outside?
That's IRRELEVENT, judy.
> If so, then you have one foot up on the problem.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!
Her dog GOT WON FOOT UP!
> He does have a level of understanding of
> keeping his living area clean.
You mean his CRATE, judy.
> There surely is a marking element in there - as you noted.
That's BECAUSE he's LOCKED IN A BOX, judy.
> First step to reduce that is to get him neutered.
That's CRUEL and INSANE, judy, and probably won't heelp.
> At his age,
A dog is a dog, judy.
> that won't stop it but it gives it a boost.
You're full of crap, judy.
> Second - Nature's Miracle.
That AIN'T gonna heelp, judy.
> Clean everything he has ever peed on with it.
Dogs DO NOT mark over their own scent, judy.
> If you can get a black light to check for stains, all the better.
That's ABSURD, judy.
> You have to get the odor off those indoor marking posts.
THAT'S RIDICUHOWES, judy.
> Third - I'd continue the crating
Of CURSE, because you're a IDIOT, judy.
> when you can't be there with him.
THAT'S HOWE COME the dog is PISSIN INSIDE, judy.
> When you> are walking him and he pees, don't just praise him.
> Praise him, pet him, throw a little party until anyone watching
> thinks you are totally out of your mind.
That's absurd, judy. THAT will DISTRACT the dog from
THINKIN of what he just done to "earn his praise.
> Locate spots outside that he pees on your walks
> and take him there as soon as you go outside.
You mean instead of just teaching him to
relieve hisself in WON approve spot in
two minutes flat?
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAHAA!!!
> If do see him lift a leg inside - or even start
> the sniffing that usually comes just before it -
> give him an "uh-uh"
THAT will REWARD his NEGATIVE ATTENTION GETTING DEVICE.
> and take him outside to one of those spots as quickly
> as you can get a leash on him and shoes on you.
You mean, instead of teaching him to ASK to go HOWET?
> These trips outside are to pee, not to play.
You're a IMECILE.
> When he pees, he goes right back inside.
Oh? You mean, as a REWARD?
> If he only plays, he goes right back inside
And lock IT in the box again?
> and you try again in a few minutes - half an hour
> or sooner if he gets sniffing again.
BWEEEEAAHHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
That won't train him to ask OR to CON-TROLL hisself, judy.
> There is an added level of difficulty to
> housebreaking a dog who has been kennelled.
That's ABSURD, judy. HOWEsbreakin is
INSTINCTIVE at four weeks of age, judy.
> I know a cocker spaniel owner whose pup had been
> raised on wire in a kennel - and had gotten used
> to peeing there. The dog actually looked for wire
> grates - such as the floor heating ducts in their
> house!
That's NORMAL, judy. NO PROBLEM for RETRAINING him.
> The smaller the kennel was, the more
> difficult your job is going to be.
THAT'S INSANE.
> But you *can* do it.
Yeah, in TWO YEARS like most of the other dog
abusing mental cases who lock their dogs in a
box, judy.
> Sam can learn new house rules.
NOT if he's LOCKED IN A BOX, judy.
> What he's doing was allowed before.
No, that was NEVER "allowed" judy.
> You are going to have to really clean
> the odor out of everything you can.
That's ABSURD and IMPOSSIBLE, judy.
> And then you're going to have to be super-
> vigilant while Sam is learning the new rules.
THAT WILL REINFORCE HIS NEGATIVE
ATTENTION GETTING BEHAVIOR.
> He's old enough -
He was "OLD ENOUGH" at 4 weeks of age, judy.
> his bladder is mature enough - to hold it while
> he's crated for a fairly long period of time.
THAT'S WHY HE CAN'T BE HOWEsbroken,
judy, BECAUSE of the crate.
> It may seem like it will take forever to retrain him,
Some dogs WON'T LIVE that long, judy.
> but once it's done and you look back, it
> won't have been all that long.
That's INSANE, judy.
> Hope this helps.
You're a MENTAL CASE, judy.
> ~~Judy
--------------
From: "Judy" <doub...@cableracer.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:53:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Weekend Brag
<snip idiocy>
And yes, Spenser is also capable of acting as if I beat
him on a regular basis so I also get that point. He acts
that way if some OTHER dog is getting yelled at.
If, for instance, the bag of garbage got left on the floor
open and the dogs are starting to stick their heads in and
I yell, Spenser will act like it's the end of the world.
Sassy will back up a step, turn her head and give the
most perfect "What?" look. Spenser's feelings are hurt
if you yell at Sassy.
Sassy's feelings are impossible to hurt.
~~Judy
--------------
From: queenmother (jruss...@epix.net)
Subject: Re: Thanks and sorry
Date: 2002-02-21 17:13:36 PST
"luker" <mlu...@stny.rr.removethis.com> wrote in
message
news:8yad8.111032$dh.30...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> The way she looked at me. I am so sorry that I let
> her down. I hate myself and will never forgive
> myself. I promised her that I'd take care of her to
> the end. Who am I to decide when her life should end.
You did not let her down. You did take care of her to
the end. If she bit one of your children then she was
no longer herself. That was not the dog that she
wanted to be and she was not living the life that she
wanted to live. She needed you to take care of her
and make the decision and take the actions that she
could not. She knows that everything you did
for her you did out of love - love for her and for
your child.
She also loved your child and for her to attack indicates
that she was not herself and that she was not happy in
her life. Maybe with time you can remember her look
as one of love and trust that you would do the right
thing - which is what you believed with all your heart
that you were doing. That's the most you ever get.
> Now, I question my judgment.
And I can't tell you that you won't continue you to do
that for quite a while. I have had dogs put to sleep
when vets were telling me that it was not black and
white.
You have to know your own dog and your own
situation. And that doesn't mean that you won't
second-guess but as you know, there's no taking it
back.
I cried for a long time and beat myself up
over the last time - did I really do *everything* I
could have? It took perhaps a year before I could
have peaceful dreams about the dog again.
And in spite of all the second guessing, the only possible
end was always the same, I did what was best for the
dog. He was not happy in his life and I couldn't
promise either of us that it was going to improve any
time soon if ever.
> Maybe it was a freak accident. I'm sorry Sara.I miss
> you. Please forgive me. I'll never forgive myself.
You know, maybe it was. Most likely it was not. And
Sara has forgiven you because all she knows is love.
You have to remember that she gave you the purest love
there is and that it stays with you.
Sara will stay in your heart forever. You will probably
cry every time you think of her. Maybe forever.
But that just proves how much love there was.
Believe me, you're not alone.
Judy
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:21:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Bad Kid vs Georgie
Geez queenie,
If Georgie "DID WELL" havin bitten a kid, a BAD
day for you, must be MURDER...
The Puppy Wizard sez we got dog abusers and
hypocrites, and apologists for dangerHOWEs dogs.
The Puppy Wizard. <};~ ) >
"queenmother" <jruss...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:PQhHa.7715$EZ5.2...@news1.epix.net...
> "Deb" <modeb...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> news:20030616002523...@mb-m22.aol.com...
> (BTW-we have some across children in the park several
> times and he has behaved very gently with the well-
> behaved variety).
As I said before, I'd take every opportunity to have him
with the well-behaved ones. Keep reminding him that kids
are nice things. I think he proved he has remarkable
restraint but I'd take every opportunity to reinforce it
in his mind.
The confusion of a loud party is hard for a dog that
(like ours) is used to a fairly quiet, peaceful life.
And you're distracted at the same time.
Georgie did very well and I'm glad the kid's parents
seem to recognize that.
~~Judy
------------------------------
deb brought Georgie to the SHELTER to GET MURDERED.
You got any Haloween pictures of your
dogs all dressed up in a doggy coffin?
Third_Leg_Of_Satan_666
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Subject: Training...
So is Hannah.
-----------------
"Delusional_Dimensions_Recovery_DDR"
<Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com>
wrote in message news:B%P2l.10555$UI2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
chardonnay9
> I almost FORGOT this:
>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> From: Nessa <use...@nessa.info>
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:45:30 GMT
>
> Subject: Training...
>
> well both my kids are asleep one on my left and one on my right.
> Bagel has taken to running away every chance he gets now so I
> have to be ever vigilant.
>
Looks like he was trying to save his life! Poor Bagel!