**** Cat Search Help Needed ****
David Neils
I live in Fort Collins and have just begun a search for two cats. My
preferences include:
Age: 1-3 yrs (Not sure about kittens when looking for two cats)
Color: Grey or Golden
Hair length: Short
Head Size: Large
Head Shape: Bobcat/Lynx like features (tuffed ears)
Vocal Attributes: Quiet - very little whining if any
Personality: Affectionate but with an interest in hunting mice, etc.
Longevity: 15 years plus
Cost: Low vet bills - Any breed is better than another?
Outside/Inside: Cat can survive living outside during most of the year.
Other Attributes: Please reply with other obvious attributes that I should
consider.
A few breeds that I'm interested in include: Abysinnian, Siamese, Short haired
Tabby
I would prefer to spend under 100.00 for both cats. Any search tips/tactics
would be appreciated.
Thanks,
David Neils
Fort Collins, CO
303-482-8685
Laura Johnson
: I live in Fort Collins and have just begun a search for two cats. My
: preferences include:
: Vocal Attributes: Quiet - very little whining if any
"Whining"? I've never heard a cat whine!
: Longevity: 15 years plus
: Cost: Low vet bills - Any breed is better than another?
: Outside/Inside: Cat can survive living outside during most of the year.
This isn't a flame; I know that some people have outdoor cats and while
I never would, it's a free country. However, the three specs above are
contradictory. 15 years of life is quite normal for an indoor cat, but very
unusual for an outdoor cat. (I've seen figures; don't have a reference; but
I think average longevity for outdoor cats was somewhere around 4-7 years.)
As for vet bills -- it's a similar story. I've heard many people complain
about their vet bills; they all had outdoor cats. Besides injuries from
cars and other animals, outdoor cats are also exposed to more disease.
: I would prefer to spend under 100.00 for both cats. Any search tips/tactics
: would be appreciated.
PetsMart on South College has animals for adoption sometimes. I saw a
purebred Turkish Van (beautiful!) at a PetsMart once. I expect the shelters
get purebred sometimes, too. Also, even non-purebred cats might meet your
specs.
Good luck.
: Thanks,
: David Neils
: Fort Collins, CO
: 303-482-8685
--
Laura Johnson (lau...@fc.hp.com)
Learning Products Engineer
Hewlett Packard NSMD
Fort Collins, Colorado
David Neils
: David Neils (dav...@sde.hp.com) wrote:
: Vocal Attributes: Quiet - very little whining if any
: "Whining"? I've never heard a cat whine!
Let me clarify: I guess I'm looking for a cat with an "independent"
personality.
I have witnessed some cats that meow constantly for no obvious reason other
than they want your total attention at all times. I had hoped that if I had
two cats they could keep each other company when I'm at work...rather than
waiting at the door for my return.
: : Longevity: 15 years plus
: : Cost: Low vet bills - Any breed is better than another?
: : Outside/Inside: Cat can survive living outside during most of the year.
: This isn't a flame; I know that some people have outdoor cats and while
: I never would, it's a free country. However, the three specs above are
: contradictory. 15 years of life is quite normal for an indoor cat, but very
: unusual for an outdoor cat. (I've seen figures; don't have a reference; but
: I think average longevity for outdoor cats was somewhere around 4-7 years.)
: As for vet bills -- it's a similar story. I've heard many people complain
: about their vet bills; they all had outdoor cats. Besides injuries from
: cars and other animals, outdoor cats are also exposed to more disease.
My sense is that some folks think that having an outdoor cat is cruel and
inhumane. As a child I had a Siamese cat which lived almost 12 years and was
outside almost 90% of the time. Maybe the 4-7 year lifespan is more accurate.
I found that our "outside" pets were much happier than my friend's pets that
were couped up in the house all the time. This was especially true when the
animals were older. When the "house" pets were barely getting around, our
pets were still playful and full of energy.
Thanks for the tips. I'll start with the shelters, then check the papers.
David
lhuf...@stsci.edu
> : David Neils (dav...@sde.hp.com) wrote:
>
> My sense is that some folks think that having an outdoor cat is cruel and
> inhumane. As a child I had a Siamese cat which lived almost 12 years and was
> outside almost 90% of the time. Maybe the 4-7 year lifespan is more accurate.
> I found that our "outside" pets were much happier than my friend's pets that
> were couped up in the house all the time. This was especially true when the
> animals were older. When the "house" pets were barely getting around, our
> pets were still playful and full of energy.
>
> Thanks for the tips. I'll start with the shelters, then check the papers.
> David
Perhaps you've missed hearing about all the 'happy outdoor' cats which have
disappeared over the last several weeks from a suburb near Washington DC.
I wonder how happy these cats are now sitting in the laboratory cages waiting
for the next 'experiment' to enliven their day...
Frances Teagle
>My sense is that some folks think that having an outdoor cat is cruel and
>inhumane. As a child I had a Siamese cat which lived almost 12 years and was
>outside almost 90% of the time. Maybe the 4-7 year lifespan is more accurate.
>I found that our "outside" pets were much happier than my friend's pets that
>were couped up in the house all the time. This was especially true when the
>animals were older. When the "house" pets were barely getting around, our
>pets were still playful and full of energy.
Are outdoor cats never allowed in the house? Or are they merely cats
which can go outside whenever they please?
All my cats have been the latter. As to lifespan, Susie (at least 100
kittens) - 13 years; Danny (dedicated hunter, mostly out at night) -
15 years; Simba (a good mouser) > 13 years; Cleo (daughter of Simba)
still going strong at around 14 years. Only Ozzie (elder brother of
Danny) died young at about three. We nursed him through cat flu as a
kitten, but he was always a bit delicate and a bit lame and pneumonia
took him off.
I agree about the liveliness of older outdoor cats.
Frances.
David Neils
: >My sense is that some folks think that having an outdoor cat is cruel and
: >inhumane. As a child I had a Siamese cat which lived almost 12 years and was
: >outside almost 90% of the time. Maybe the 4-7 year lifespan is more accurate.
: >I found that our "outside" pets were much happier than my friend's pets that
: >were couped up in the house all the time. This was especially true when the
: >animals were older. When the "house" pets were barely getting around, our
: >pets were still playful and full of energy.
: Are outdoor cats never allowed in the house? Or are they merely cats
: which can go outside whenever they please?
Our Siamese cats were allowed to venture in and out of the house whenever they
pleased. I have to admit I've always disliked zoo environments and I'm sure this
bias plays a role in my decision to have pets which enjoy the outdoors. I'd
rather have a Siberian Husky that can go winter camping with me than a yipping
poodle with a sweater and a bow tied between it's ears. Simply a matter of
personal taste.
Laura Johnson
: Let me clarify: I guess I'm looking for a cat with an "independent"
: personality.
: I have witnessed some cats that meow constantly for no obvious reason other
: than they want your total attention at all times. I had hoped that if I had
: two cats they could keep each other company when I'm at work...rather than
: waiting at the door for my return.
Yes, I have a cat that meows like that! It's been my experience that
"talkativeness" is a trait of Siamese or part-Siamese.
: My sense is that some folks think that having an outdoor cat is cruel and
: inhumane. As a child I had a Siamese cat which lived almost 12 years and was
: outside almost 90% of the time. Maybe the 4-7 year lifespan is more accurate.
Naturally, an outdoor cat has the same *potential* lifespan as an indoor
one. It's all the accident & disease victims that bring down the average.
: Thanks for the tips. I'll start with the shelters, then check the papers.
:
: David
Good luck! It's nice to see a reasonable person on r.p.c. once in awhile :-)
David Neils
There is quite a difference between the "safe" country in NW Montana vs. DC.
Let's compare apples with apples. I don't remember any headline news articles
in the local Libby, MT paper which stated, "Keep all pets indoors...mad
scientist on the loose".
Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135
>about their vet bills; they all had outdoor cats. Besides injuries from
>cars and other animals, outdoor cats are also exposed to more disease.
Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid to be the
worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
population down.
I know this doesn't seem like it fits in this group, but cats do impact
on our environment and it is something to be discussed here. Domesticated
cats are not native to the U.S. and do not, as expected do a good job of
keeping down the rodent population. If you have an area around your
home where birds congregate to feed or a bird feeder, you will notice that
they and the squirrels get rather loud when a cat is in the area. However,
a few years ago, I noticed a silence in the area during a time when I have
a lot of birds at the feeder. When I looked around, I found a kestrel
perched on our phone wires. This kestrel did more to decimate the rodent
(mouse) population in our area in one week than all the stray and loose cats
do in a year.
If you won't think about the things that can happen to your cat when you
let them roam outside, then maybe you'll take the time to think how your
cat impacts on the ecology of your area. For those of you who say your
cat brings you whatever it kills, have you checked the species of the bird
that your cat has killed? Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
Cats don't need to roam outside to be happy and challenged, with a little
effort on the part of the owner, any indoor cat can be as happy and challenged
as an outdoor cat. I have cats owned cats for 25yrs and all my cats have
been strays who were turned into indoor only cats. They lived quit happy
lives and had not only myself to keep them busy, but my dogs as well. I also
put up bird feeders around the house to allow them to play there stalking
games in the windows of my home without them doing any damage to the ecology
of my area.
Sorry this was so long.
Darlene
Cindy Tittle Moore
>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid to be the
>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>population down.
I have yet to see a cat come ahead in a contest with an *owl*!
Otherwise, what you said was quite sensible and is something we should
all think about.
>However,
>a few years ago, I noticed a silence in the area during a time when I have
>a lot of birds at the feeder. When I looked around, I found a kestrel
>perched on our phone wires. This kestrel did more to decimate the rodent
>(mouse) population in our area in one week than all the stray and loose cats
>do in a year.
OTOH, kestrels are pretty threatened too, if I remember correctly.
The aggregate effect of cats in the nation must be higher then the
aggregate effect of kestrels.
--Cindy
--
Cindy Tittle Moore & Noisy Underfoot (bird watcher extraordinaire)
I post the rec.pets.cats FAQ every 25 days. To get the FAQ: ftp to
rtfm.mit.edu and look under /pub/usenet/news.answers/cats-faq/* (part1,
part2, part3, part4), or send email to mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu with
send usenet/news.answers/cats-faq/part1
send usenet/news.answers/cats-faq/part2
send usenet/news.answers/cats-faq/part3
send usenet/news.answers/cats-faq/part4
in the body (leave subject line empty). Send contributions and comments
to me; send questions not covered in the FAQ to the newsgroup.
Todd Williams
>Thanks,
I would check PetsMart as another poster suggested. We have one here,
and they have pets for adoption every weekend, including some that
appear purebred. They seem to be selected from the healthiest cats
from the shelters. I have 5 cats, but all mine were strays that
adopted us. The only major vet bills were with one we found in a
parking lot as a very young kitten in the middle of summer who
later had FUS problems, which I think were caused by the heat and
dehydration when he was so young. (the little scruffy thing turned
into a large Maine Coon) Twice in 9 years I've had vet bills from
cat fights (bites). (Previous neighbors had a couple of good ones
for their dogs... ) My cats are all indoor/outdoor, more or less
so depending on the cat. (18 year old female only goes out during
warm summer weather, 3 year old male comes in at night only in very
cold winter weather) I keep all of them up to date on shots (I get
a multi-cat discount from my vet), and had them tested for FELV
before allowing permanent residence. I had one potential adoptee
test positive, and since he was quite sick we had him put to sleep :(
He was around my others for 3-4 weeks at least, and they didn't get
infected - so I recommend the shots.
Longevity: In my experience outdoor cats live at least as long as
indoor cats. I think this is due to the increased activity levels.
One of the cats I grew up with lived to be 21. Her favorite activity
was chasing and riding large dogs. Travelled all over the world
with us (Air Force brat), and was outdoors everywhere. Her playmate
lived to be 19 (same circumstances). I currently have (am owned by)
an 18 year old female who is still the dominant cat of the household.
My mother's 18 year old Black DSH died :( last week due to failure
(possibly complications after being hit by a bike-broken leg took
a long time to heal ) last week, and he was known far and wide
for his hunting. You do have to pay closer attention to outdoor
cats, though, because they won't complain about an injury or
problem unless or until it is serious.
An observation: the mixed breeds seem to live longer than purebreds.
Whining: avoid Siamese. Abysinnian's demand lots of attention also,
but are not as vocal as Siamese.
Outdoors: In the winter the long haired cats do much better outside,
and during your Fort Collins winters even they would be better off
inside at night.
Hunting: most cats are good hunters given the opportunity, a few
consider it beneath them, and some will hunt anything that moves.
Hope my ramblings help, good luck!
Todd Williams
--
internet to...@unislc.slc.unisys.com
uucp ...!sun!unislc!todd
Todd Williams
>There is quite a difference between the "safe" country in NW Montana vs. DC.
>Let's compare apples with apples. I don't remember any headline news articles
>in the local Libby, MT paper which stated, "Keep all pets indoors...mad
>scientist on the loose".
>David Neils
>Fort Collins, CO
Exactly, although nowadays there are plenty of hazards to watch out
for (lawn chemicals in suburbia, farm chemicals in farm country, the
neighbor kid who belongs in reform school, FELV, etc...).
I still allow my 5 to come and go as they please, the current cat-aria
range in age from 3 to 18 years. In certain major urban areas I would
worry much more than here (Ogden, Ut) or Fort Collins or Libby MT.
I rambled enough about outdoor cats and longevity in another post
already, so
Hope you have many years of furry feline companionship whatever you
decide,
Jon Krueger
> search for two cats. My preferences include:
>
>Age: 1-3 yrs (Not sure about kittens when looking for two cats)
>Color: Grey or Golden
>Hair length: Short
>Head Size: Large
>Head Shape: Bobcat/Lynx like features (tuffed ears)
>Vocal Attributes: Quiet - very little whining if any
>Personality: Affectionate but with an interest in hunting mice, etc.
>Longevity: 15 years plus
>Cost: Low vet bills - Any breed is better than another?
Vet bills vary more with what happens to the cat after
it's born than what happened to its ancestors. E.g. healthy
diet, vet visits, vaccinations, knowledgeable owners,
protection from elements, neutering, grooming, are all
known effective preventive health measures, none have anything to
do with breed or breeding.
>Outside/Inside: Cat can survive living outside during most of the year.
Varies some with location. But cats kept mostly or entirely
outdoors are in harm's way more often. Cars, other cats, dogs,
people, poisons -- e.g. car antifreeze, toxic to cats yet
they find it delicious.
>Other Attributes: Please reply with other obvious attributes that I should
> consider.
Personality, behavior, sociability, housetraining.
Shorthairs a little easier to keep clean and groomed.
>A few breeds that I'm interested in include: Abysinnian, Siamese, Short haired
>Tabby
>
>I would prefer to spend under 100.00 for both cats. Any search tips/tactics
>would be appreciated.
Sure -- visit your local animal shelter. Lots of cats there
that meet your preferences. As with cats from any source:
-- look for an active, healthy cat
-- take the cat to a vet within 24 hours to
confirm its health with an expert opinion
-- get it neutered if it isn't already (assuming
of course it's old enough; your vet will tell
you when it is; typically four to six months)
-- get its vaccinations done.
See the cat FAQ for details.
Now what attributes do YOU have as an owner?
Do you own your own home or does your landlord
allow pets? Are you willing to limit your housing
choices for the next 15 to 20 years to those that
allow pets? Are you willing to train your cat to
use the litter box, the scratching post, and to be
gentle with people? Are you willing to spend time
with your cat every day? Are you willing to spend
time and effort learning about cat health and behavior
so you'll know when to go to the vet?
-- Jon
--
Jon Krueger j...@ingres.com The intention was not omissional.
Frances Teagle
>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid to be the
>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>population down.
>
>I know this doesn't seem like it fits in this group, but cats do impact
>on our environment and it is something to be discussed here. Domesticated
>cats are not native to the U.S. and do not, as expected do a good job of
>keeping down the rodent population.
An interesting point, this - the domestic cat is descended from Felis
sylvestris lybica, the Libyan wildcat domesticated by the Egyptians,
several thousand years ago, where its rodent control was much
appreciated around the early granaries. It spread out from there and
arrived in Britain with the Romans, so it cannot be classed as a
native here either. There is evidence that the characteristically
round-headed British moggy has genes from early crossbreeding with the
native Felis Sylvestris wildcat (some tv programme I watched compared
genetic fingerprints). However, if cats didn't predate rodents and
small birds, something else would, this is a natural law and several
other candidates are waiting their chance. In Europe the smaller
mustelids such as ferrets, weasels, martens etc. would probably have
moved into the pet mousekiller role as farming and food storage
expanded. Cats have much nicer personalities and habits (mustelids are
pretty smelly) and so won the race. Of course, wildcats and mustelids
still account for a good many small creatures.
>If you have an area around your
>home where birds congregate to feed or a bird feeder, you will notice that
>they and the squirrels get rather loud when a cat is in the area. However,
>a few years ago, I noticed a silence in the area during a time when I have
>a lot of birds at the feeder. When I looked around, I found a kestrel
>perched on our phone wires. This kestrel did more to decimate the rodent
>(mouse) population in our area in one week than all the stray and loose cats
>do in a year.
Kestrels are very common here (sometimes called the "motorway hawk"
for its habit of hovering over the verges) and they certainly take a
lot of rats, voles and mice plus small birds when they can get them.
>If you won't think about the things that can happen to your cat when you
>let them roam outside, then maybe you'll take the time to think how your
>cat impacts on the ecology of your area. For those of you who say your
>cat brings you whatever it kills, have you checked the species of the bird
>that your cat has killed? Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
>sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
>dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
Have you ever lived next to a chicken run? Rats, mice and pigeons
gather there in flocks. If it weren't for the local moggies, we'd be
overwhelmed with rodents. When it rains or snows, they like to take
refuge in local houses (so do the chickens). Rodents breed very fast,
we need all the help we can get to keep them down, don't imagine that
poison will do the job. There were even mouse droppings on my desk
this morning, only a short while after the pest control man's visit, I
wish the Library had a cat.
Frances.
Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135
(Frances Teagle) says:
>Have you ever lived next to a chicken run? Rats, mice and pigeons
>gather there in flocks. If it weren't for the local moggies, we'd be
>overwhelmed with rodents. When it rains or snows, they like to take
>refuge in local houses (so do the chickens). Rodents breed very fast,
>we need all the help we can get to keep them down, don't imagine that
>poison will do the job. There were even mouse droppings on my desk
>this morning, only a short while after the pest control man's visit, I
>wish the Library had a cat.
>
>Frances.
>
>
was known to have rats and the landlord allowed me to move in with my first
cat, a stray that had just had 3 kittens. I never once had a rat in the
apartment even though the woman before me had them running around while she
was at home. I also was the only one not to get a roach problem after the
new owner moved one of his relatives in and we watched the roaches coming
out of his apartment. One of my cats, Kelly, loved bugs and sat in the window
eating the roaches as they came up through the woodwork.
Shortly after the apartment building was sold my family got together and bought
a house. In the summer we kept finding dead yellow-jackets in one of the
bedrooms and finally we realized that we had a nest in the wall. Again, the
cats were killing the yellow-jackets as they came through the openings in the
woodwork and not one of them got stung. And then there was the ever popuplar
game that Kelly made up of catching flies in his paw and listening to them
buzz everytime he would shake his paw. When he got tired of the game, he had
lunch.
Indoor extermination is fantastic as it means you don't have to use poisons,
with the exception of fleas and ticks, but in the wild, the cat will never
fit into a predation model where number of predators depends on the amount
of prey. It may not be necessary to keep cats in all the time, but taking
into consideration times when native wildlife are more vulnerable will help
our native wildlife have a fighting chance of making a comeback. For instance,
how many people know if they live in an area of ground nesting birds? Keeping
your cat in during nesting period may help more chicks reach adult hood. How
many people live in a migration route and know the times of heaviest migration?
Again, making a effort to keep cats in during migration will put less stress on
an already difficult time for these native creatures. Do you live in an area
where a small mammal is on the endangered species list? Keeping your cat in
when this mammal hunts for food will again take a little stress off this
creature.
People will say that their cat doesn't do that much damage and it makes him/her
happy to be outside, but multiply that by 1,000s or tens of 1,000s and you have
a real wrecking crew. They may also say that there are other predators out
there taking their toll on native species and that is true too, but the popu-
tion of these predators will follow the predation model and go down as the prey
decreases, again, the cat population won't follow this model and if anything
will continue to increase.
Darlene
Ruth Milner
>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>population down.
>
>I know this doesn't seem like it fits in this group, but cats do impact
>on our environment and it is something to be discussed here.
Actually, it has been discussed here, and fairly recently. I think the
result was that the average cat's kill is something like 90% small rodents
and 10% birds, and that the average cat likewise would have very little
chance against the average owl (or other bird of prey).
(Note, this is averages; naturally there will be some exceptions).
>cats are not native to the U.S. and do not, as expected do a good job of
>keeping down the rodent population.
>This kestrel did more to decimate the rodent
>(mouse) population in our area in one week than all the stray and loose cats
>do in a year.
Well, maybe so, but most of us don't have the option of keeping a kestrel
(and I'm sure lots of people would have something to say about it if any of
us tried :-) ). Also, I *know* that Abby kills quite amazing numbers of mice;
the ones I've seen number up to a dozen/week and I'm sure I don't see all of
them (for one thing, she totally devours them). By contrast, I have only
found three dead birds in the last 6 months, and she doesn't eat those.
>cat impacts on the ecology of your area. For those of you who say your
>cat brings you whatever it kills, have you checked the species of the bird
>that your cat has killed?
See above for the fraction of a cat's kill that birds generally represent.
>Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
>sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
>dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
Presumably it will reflect the local bird population, possibly with a
factor due to some birds having better reflexes/defenses than others. In
my case it was one immature robin, one sparrow, and one goldfinch.
Predation by the domestic cat would be by far the smaller of the two factors
you mention affecting songbird populations, and would be quite localized. Loss
of habitat is a larger and *much* more serious problem, with a much greater
detrimental effect on the total bird population.
--
Ruth Milner NRAO/VLA Socorro NM
Manager of Computing Systems rmi...@aoc.nrao.edu
David Wren-Hardin
>In article <93357.055...@uicvm.uic.edu> Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135 <U38...@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>
>>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
>>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>>the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid [sic] to be the
>>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>>population down.
I have never heard or seen of a cat killing a bird of prey. Not saying it
doesn't happen, just never heard of it.
>>
>>I know this doesn't seem like it fits in this group, but cats do impact
>>on our environment and it is something to be discussed here.
>
>Actually, it has been discussed here, and fairly recently. I think the
>result was that the average cat's kill is something like 90% small rodents
>and 10% birds, and that the average cat likewise would have very little
>chance against the average owl (or other bird of prey).
>
>(Note, this is averages; naturally there will be some exceptions).
>
[munch]
>
>>cat impacts on the ecology of your area. For those of you who say your
>>cat brings you whatever it kills, have you checked the species of the bird
>>that your cat has killed?
>
>See above for the fraction of a cat's kill that birds generally represent.
>
>>Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
>>sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
>>dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
>
>Presumably it will reflect the local bird population, possibly with a
>factor due to some birds having better reflexes/defenses than others. In
>my case it was one immature robin, one sparrow, and one goldfinch.
>
>Predation by the domestic cat would be by far the smaller of the two factors
>you mention affecting songbird populations, and would be quite localized. Loss
>of habitat is a larger and *much* more serious problem, with a much greater
>detrimental effect on the total bird population.
Actually, I've seen studies that the number of birds killed by cats numbers
in the _millions_. These are not entirely or even mostly pigeons, etc, but
songbirds. I don't know if the study made statements about what percent
of the decline in songbird population could be blamed on cats. I've had
two outdoor cats; one hunted almost entirely rodents, the other almost
entirely birds. They were pretty even on the number of kills a week, about
5-7. So the bird killing cat was taking out 1500-2100 birds a year. One cat.
>--
>Ruth Milner NRAO/VLA Socorro NM
>Manager of Computing Systems rmi...@aoc.nrao.edu
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
David Wren-Hardin
>entirely birds. They were pretty even on the number of kills a week, about
>5-7. So the bird killing cat was taking out 1500-2100 birds a year. One cat.
Obviously I need to learn to multiply. Thats 250-350 birds a year.
Ruth Milner
>>In article <93357.055...@uicvm.uic.edu> Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135 <U38...@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
>>>sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
>>>dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
>>
>>Presumably it will reflect the local bird population, possibly with a
>>factor due to some birds having better reflexes/defenses than others. In
>>my case it was one immature robin, one sparrow, and one goldfinch.
>>
>>Predation by the domestic cat would be by far the smaller of the two factors
>>of habitat is a larger and *much* more serious problem, with a much greater
>>detrimental effect on the total bird population.
>
>Actually, I've seen studies that the number of birds killed by cats numbers
>in the _millions_.
Quite possibly over the whole continent, since active hunting domestic cats
probably number in the millions (most cats are urban and many are indoor-only,
but that would still easily leave a few million). Destruction of habitat is
still much worse over the long term; it has resulted in extinction.
>I've had
>two outdoor cats; one hunted almost entirely rodents, the other almost
>entirely birds. They were pretty even on the number of kills a week, about
>5-7. So the bird killing cat was taking out 1500-2100 birds a year. One cat.
Say what??????? I think you'd better check your arithmetic! 5-7 birds/week
times 52 weeks in a year is 250-350. You're off by about an order of
magnitude there. :-)
Your cat sounds exceptional if it killed that many every week consistently.
None of the neighborhood cats here does (I've looked after some of them for
extended periods of time and had a chance to observe their hunting habits).
This is why I say that the effect of cats killing birds would be localized.
David Neils
: Sure -- visit your local animal shelter. Lots of cats there
: that meet your preferences. As with cats from any source:
: -- look for an active, healthy cat
: -- take the cat to a vet within 24 hours to
: confirm its health with an expert opinion
: -- get it neutered if it isn't already (assuming
: of course it's old enough; your vet will tell
: you when it is; typically four to six months)
: -- get its vaccinations done.
: See the cat FAQ for details.
: Now what attributes do YOU have as an owner?
: Do you own your own home or does your landlord
: allow pets? Are you willing to limit your housing
: choices for the next 15 to 20 years to those that
: allow pets? Are you willing to train your cat to
: use the litter box, the scratching post, and to be
: gentle with people? Are you willing to spend time
: with your cat every day? Are you willing to spend
: time and effort learning about cat health and behavior
: so you'll know when to go to the vet?
Jon,
Thanks for the tips and suggestions concerning this cat search. Your final
notes about "Owner Attributes" is taken to heart. I plan on owning my own home
soon so I don't have to deal with landlords. Since I love animals I
look forward to creating a healthy environment for the cats.
As for breed I'm very interested in the Maine Coone. I saw some pictures of
this cat recently and it fits most of my criteria. I'd like shorter hair but
you can't have everything. The large size of this cat is more important.
Thanks again to everyone who responded with tips, caution, and flames.
erin rebecca miller
>>Outside/Inside: Cat can survive living outside during most of the year.
>
>Varies some with location. But cats kept mostly or entirely
>outdoors are in harm's way more often. Cars, other cats, dogs,
>people, poisons -- e.g. car antifreeze, toxic to cats yet
>they find it delicious.
>
>>Other Attributes: Please reply with other obvious attributes that I should
>> consider.
>
>Now what attributes do YOU have as an owner?
>Do you own your own home or does your landlord
>allow pets? Are you willing to limit your housing
>choices for the next 15 to 20 years to those that
>allow pets? Are you willing to train your cat to
>use the litter box, the scratching post, and to be
>gentle with people? Are you willing to spend time
>with your cat every day? Are you willing to spend
>time and effort learning about cat health and behavior
>so you'll know when to go to the vet?
Hear hear!. I agree with all of the above and would like to emphasize
*especially* if you are going to let it outside to PLEASE make sure
you 1)get it fixed as soon as its able to be and 2)keep its shots
up to date. I cant tell you how sick to my stomach I get whenever
I hear about someone who as a cat with a contageous disease (my
own disfavorite FeLV) who let thier cat outside free to contaminate
the entire local stray/non-stray cat population.
just my $.02.
erin
& Oliver (my FeLV+, indoor-only moggy)
--
Edwin Barkdoll
>>
>>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
>>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>>the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid [sic] to be the
>>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>>population down.
>>
>>I know this doesn't seem like it fits in this group, but cats do impact
>>on our environment and it is something to be discussed here.
>
>Actually, it has been discussed here, and fairly recently.
I find it very interesting to read commentary on the same
issue in rec.pets.cats versus rec.birds - the former (which I tend to
agree with on this issue) argue that cats have relatively minor effects
on bird populations while the latter occasionally view cats as devil's
spawn regarding their impact on birds.
> I think the
>result was that the average cat's kill is something like 90% small rodents
>and 10% birds, and that the average cat likewise would have very little
>chance against the average owl (or other bird of prey).
>
>(Note, this is averages; naturally there will be some exceptions).
There is no question that in certain geographic locations, in
particular islands, cats can have profound effects on native wildlife
- this is true of many if not most species introduced to islands or
even larger areas.
On noninsular areas (since most of us are not posting from
islands), as Ruth points out, cat predation targets small mammals
preferrentiall but is highly variable ranging from nearly 100% of prey
species being small mammals to around 35% being birds.
>>cats are not native to the U.S. and do not, as expected do a good job of
>>keeping down the rodent population.
If the goal of having cats is to "control" rodent populations,
most people go about it all wrong - people actually feed their cat so
the cat's motivation to hunt for food is dramatically diminished. The
kestrel, unlike most cats, is a professional predator - she kills or
dies.
>>For those of you who say your
>>cat brings you whatever it kills, have you checked the species of the bird
>>that your cat has killed?
>>Is it one of the flying rodents, (pigeon, house
>>sparrow, starling, etc) or is it one of the song birds whose population is
>>dwindling due to loss of habitat and predation by the domestic cat?
Again, the effect of domestic cat predation on songbirds is
probably minimal. If you live in an urban or suburban area with a
bird feeder most of the birds you attract, and your cat kills,
are probably among the "flying rodents" or other opportunistic
species, *not* songbirds.
>Presumably it will reflect the local bird population, possibly with a
>factor due to some birds having better reflexes/defenses than others. In
>my case it was one immature robin, one sparrow, and one goldfinch.
>
>Predation by the domestic cat would be by far the smaller of the two factors
>you mention affecting songbird populations, and would be quite localized. Loss
>of habitat is a larger and *much* more serious problem, with a much greater
>detrimental effect on the total bird population.
Those of you who are interested in teh decline of songbirds
might be interested in _Where have all the birds gone? Essays on the
biology and conservation of birds that migrate to the American
tropics_ by John Terborgh. (yeah I know this is rec.pets.cats...:-))
--
Edwin Barkdoll
bark...@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu
e...@world.std.com
Edwin Barkdoll
>>In article <93357.055...@uicvm.uic.edu> Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135 <U38...@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
>>>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
>>>the bird and small animal populations. Barn cats are staid [sic] to be the
>>>worst predators of birds and small mammals. This is a dilemma with barn
>>>cats as they are kept to keep the rodent population down, but they also
>>>destroy the birds of prey, like owls who also help to keep the rodent
>>>population down.
>
>I have never heard or seen of a cat killing a bird of prey. Not saying it
>doesn't happen, just never heard of it.
Of the hundreds of cat-attack birds which have come thorugh
UPenn's Wildlife Service in the past few years, there has never been a
raptor brought in because of a cat attack, that we have been able to
ascertain.
The argurment has been made, however, that cats can affect
raptor populations *indirectly* by removing the so-called "surplus"
rodent populatoins which many raptors rely heavily upon for survival.
I don't know of anyone who has studied this conclusively but it is an
interesting question.
ba...@uwovax.uwo.ca
>
> If the goal of having cats is to "control" rodent populations,
> most people go about it all wrong - people actually feed their cat so
> the cat's motivation to hunt for food is dramatically diminished. The
> kestrel, unlike most cats, is a professional predator - she kills or
> dies.
farmers now feed their barn "rodent control" cats is that if the cats are
not fed, they will range out away from the barn into adjacent fields in
order to maximize their likelihood of a catch (having done a fair job on
the barn itself). This involves giving less attention to the barn itself.
If fed, the cats (no longer needing to go out and hunt to survive) are
more likely to stick around the barn where, of course, any rodent that
strays by will get hunted given the cats' instincts (perhaps less
humanely, as the cats play with their prey rather than eating it
right away, but that's another issue).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Baer, Department of Sociology,
University of Western Ontario, London, Canada N6A 5C2
Internet: BA...@UWOVAX.UWO.CA
David Neils
: >> search for two cats. My preferences include:
: (stuff deleted)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.11]
: >Now what attributes do YOU have as an owner?
: >Do you own your own home or does your landlord
: >allow pets? Are you willing to limit your housing
: >choices for the next 15 to 20 years to those that
: >allow pets? Are you willing to train your cat to
: >use the litter box, the scratching post, and to be
: >gentle with people? Are you willing to spend time
: >with your cat every day? Are you willing to spend
: >time and effort learning about cat health and behavior
: >so you'll know when to go to the vet?
: Hear hear!. I agree with all of the above and would like to emphasize
: *especially* if you are going to let it outside to PLEASE make sure
: you 1)get it fixed as soon as its able to be and 2)keep its shots
: up to date. I cant tell you how sick to my stomach I get whenever
: I hear about someone who as a cat with a contageous disease (my
: own disfavorite FeLV) who let thier cat outside free to contaminate
: the entire local stray/non-stray cat population.
: just my $.02.
: erin
: & Oliver (my FeLV+, indoor-only moggy)
Erin,
I've heard from many folks that it's important to get all shots before the
cat comes home. Last night I had a chance to visit with some cat owners who
have a beautiful Maine Coon cat. I fell in love with it within 30 seconds.
They informed me that some cats have a terrible reaction to shots and
recommended that the shots be spaced over a period of weeks.
Could you tell me more about the FelV disease and describe the list of shots
needed for a new cat. Please give the full name of the disease/shot. I don't
have a clue what FelV is. Also include cost of shots if you have a rough idea.
erin rebecca miller
>I've heard from many folks that it's important to get all shots before the
>cat comes home. Last night I had a chance to visit with some cat owners who
>have a beautiful Maine Coon cat. I fell in love with it within 30 seconds.
>They informed me that some cats have a terrible reaction to shots and
>recommended that the shots be spaced over a period of weeks.
>
>Could you tell me more about the FelV disease and describe the list of shots
>needed for a new cat. Please give the full name of the disease/shot. I don't
>have a clue what FelV is. Also include cost of shots if you have a rough idea.
>
more knowledge on the subject...
FeLV is Feline Leukemia Virus. Although not the same as FIV (Feline AIDS), it
acts similarly to Human AIDS. Once the disease takes effect it affects the
immune system, making the cat very susceptable to other illnesses, not
just the kind that kill, either. Cats can test positively for it, but not
be superficially ill. Mine, for example, is perfectly "healthy" but the
disease is lying dormant in his bone marrow. The worst part about FeLV is
that it is pretty easily transmitted, tho people argue on just HOW easily.
From what I understand cats can get it by a) queen/kitten b) sharing a
litterbox with an affected cat and c) it can travel through saliva, so if
an infected cat bites or even hisses at another, the other can be exposed.
Under debate is if a cat can catch it just by being hissed at once, or if
it takes prolonged contact.
As far as spacing the shots out...The first thing you need to do
is find yourself a vet. The people you are getting the kitten from should
be able to recommend one, if they live in your area. If not ask anyone you
know with cats, ask your neighbors, friends or co-workers. Or you can
post on the net for a vet recommendation in your area. Your vet will be
able to give you all the information on shot spacing, as it may depend on
what your cat tests positive for if any (hopefully not) and how old it is.
Certain shots need to be given annually. There are a whole series
of shots needed for kittens, again the vet will be able to give you the
best information. As far as cost, that varies from area to area and vet
to vet. My vet in Atlanta is a sole practitioner which means his hours
are more limited than a larger practice, but I feel I get consistent care
and attention. Some places are more "clinic" like and are usually
cheaper and are have longer hours. It also depends on if you are in an
urban or rural area. If rural, your choices may be limited and it
really doesn't matter what the vet charges, you have to accept it or else
not get your vaccinated (which would be very, very bad).
You mentioned getting shots "before your cat comes home" I am not
too sure what you mean by this. But if you have no other cats, then it
really should not matter, as people can't catch much from cats except
things like rabies which is highly unlikely your cat has. If you are
getting your kitten from a legitimate breeder then it depending on its
age it may/should already have some shots. If it is an older kitten and
does not have its shots yet, I may be wary of the breeder unless they
have a REALLY good reason for not having done it yet.
Anyway, hope this helps, sorry if I rambled. The main thing to do is
find yourself a good vet who can answer any of these questions for
you.
Good luck.
erin
--
Frances Teagle
>doesn't happen, just never heard of it.
>
I have seen one try, he wasn't fast enough.
>of the decline in songbird population could be blamed on cats. I've had
>two outdoor cats; one hunted almost entirely rodents, the other almost
>entirely birds. They were pretty even on the number of kills a week, about
>5-7. So the bird killing cat was taking out 1500-2100 birds a year. One cat.
5 x 52 = 260, 7 x 52 = 364, nuff said.
FT.
David Wren-Hardin
Evidently no one saw the post I wrote _immediatly_ after this where I
correct my mathematical error :-). Mea Culpa. Even with the real number,
260 at a low end, one can imagine that the cat population could take
out large numbers of birds. How does this compare to other impacts
on bird populations, e.g., habitat reduction ? Probably it is much less
of an impact, but it may not be insignificant. Personally though, my
cats are indoor cats for their safety, not necessarily for the safety
of the avian populations ;-).
>FT.
Cathy Quinones
There was an article on Natural History magazine a few years back that
recounted the impact of domestic cats on wildlife. I wrote a summary of
this article, the cats *do* have an effect, and I know I posted it somewhere
(either this group or rec.pets.birds). If anyone is interested, drop me a
line and I'll either post the summary or send you a copy.
Robear
David Wren-Hardin <bd...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>Evidently no one saw the post I wrote _immediatly_ after this where I
>correct my mathematical error :-). Mea Culpa. Even with the real number,
>260 at a low end, one can imagine that the cat population could take
>out large numbers of birds. How does this compare to other impacts
>on bird populations, e.g., habitat reduction ? Probably it is much less
>of an impact, but it may not be insignificant. Personally though, my
>cats are indoor cats for their safety, not necessarily for the safety
>of the avian populations ;-).
Ahh, this gives us something to work with. Outdoor cats can range for
miles in this area - I've seen some cats over 5 miles from home, once.
If we go with seeing about 1 dead bird a day, near the max, it sounds like
a lot of birds. But at the same time, how many birds do you see live in
the same area each day? For me, it must be over 100. Lots of woods and
stuff. Even in Chicago, I saw many, many pigeons.
So, I'd say predation is about like car accidents for humans, which in
today's Washington Post was put at about 1% of American deaths. Actually,
I'd bet that predation could be as high as 5% in some areas, or lower
than one in others. But I think that 1% would be a good ballpark figure.
I notice perhaps 1 dead bird on the road every few days. Cars are a
factor, just as cats are. Neither seems likely to harm a population
significantly.
David Pipes
Manda Lynch
>
> In article <1993Dec28.1...@Mr-Hyde.aoc.nrao.edu> rmi...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Ruth Milner) writes:
> >In article <93357.055...@uicvm.uic.edu> Darlene Pietrzak, M/C 135 <U38...@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> >>
> >>Besides the obvious problems of outdoor cats being killed, maimed, or
> >>exposed to disease, there is the devastation that outdoor cats exact on
> >>the bird and small animal populations.
> >
> >result was that the average cat's kill is something like 90% small rodents
> >and 10% birds, and that the average cat likewise would have very little
> >chance against the average owl (or other bird of prey).
> >
> >(Note, this is averages; naturally there will be some exceptions).
>
> There is no question that in certain geographic locations, in
> particular islands, cats can have profound effects on native wildlife
> - this is true of many if not most species introduced to islands or
> even larger areas.
> On noninsular areas (since most of us are not posting from
> islands), as Ruth points out, cat predation targets small mammals
> preferrentiall but is highly variable ranging from nearly 100% of prey
> species being small mammals to around 35% being birds.
Even in "noninsular" areas they can have a significant impact - you have to
take into account the natural ecosystem also. In Australia, we have few
natural predators, and most of those in the desert areas (goanna, dingo,
various snakes, etc). Hence in the more moist temperate areas, where most
people live, the wildlife has few defenses against both cat and dog
predation. Also, we don't really want our "rodents", marsupial mice and the
like, controlled. A couple of years ago in Melbourne, it was proposed that
residents in a certain area be REQUIRED to keep their cats inside or on a
leash, since the local population of lyrebirds had been been close to wiped
out. The cat owners put up an incredible fight, but I personally thought it
was a good idea. So think about where you are before you let them out. Now
can anyone tell me about Alaska?
Manda ma...@dino.gi.alaska.edu
Genevieve: MC (B+O)dt C .4 X++ L-- C+ I+++ T++ A+ H+ S++ V++ Q+ B++
(in other words, your basic kitten)
I used to have a handle on life, but it fell off...
David Wren-Hardin
>In article <1994Jan4.2...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>David Wren-Hardin <bd...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Evidently no one saw the post I wrote _immediatly_ after this where I
>>correct my mathematical error :-). Mea Culpa. Even with the real number,
>>260 at a low end, one can imagine that the cat population could take
>>out large numbers of birds. How does this compare to other impacts
>>on bird populations, e.g., habitat reduction ? Probably it is much less
>>of an impact, but it may not be insignificant. Personally though, my
>>cats are indoor cats for their safety, not necessarily for the safety
>>of the avian populations ;-).
>
>Ahh, this gives us something to work with. Outdoor cats can range for
>miles in this area - I've seen some cats over 5 miles from home, once.
>If we go with seeing about 1 dead bird a day, near the max, it sounds like
>a lot of birds. But at the same time, how many birds do you see live in
>the same area each day? For me, it must be over 100. Lots of woods and
>stuff. Even in Chicago, I saw many, many pigeons.
Well, my cat was taking his birds out in Cincinnati, and in our neighborhood
pigeons were not the menace they are here in Chicago. It is also possible,
even likely, that some types of birds are more vulnerable than others.
Yes, there are lots of pigeons, but if a cat takes out every Bluebird in
a five mile area, that could be bad.
>
>So, I'd say predation is about like car accidents for humans, which in
>today's Washington Post was put at about 1% of American deaths. Actually,
>I'd bet that predation could be as high as 5% in some areas, or lower
>than one in others. But I think that 1% would be a good ballpark figure.
>
>I notice perhaps 1 dead bird on the road every few days. Cars are a
>factor, just as cats are. Neither seems likely to harm a population
>significantly.
I would tend to agree, but I have heard of studies that state that it could
be significant for some species of birds. I haven't _seen_ these studies,
so can't comment, but one could imagine that if a cat killed even 1% of
a population of a rare bird, it could be a problem.
>
> David Pipes