newsgroup for pet owners?
SLK03
causes...the rhetoric and propaganda that goes with it...and all the
self-serving do gooder crap. Is there by some chance a newsgroup for pet owners
to discuss our pets and normal day to day stuff? no causes, no agendas, no
propaganda....just pets...the love we have for them, cute things they've done,
concerns we have etc? I don't mind talking about the cat population as a whole
but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to relate to others who are
simply cat moms and dads.
Dom Runner
discuss our pets here. Alot. But, being that not a one of us respect you,
we don't talk to you about our love for our own pets. And if you wanted to
talk about such things, start your own thread about it and stop inviting
flames.
Sethran
SLK03
>we don't talk to you about our love for our own pets
well since this is an open ng and posts are read by many you don't talk about
them to anyone. You talk of causes and what people should and shouldn't do and
stealing others pets and condeming others but there's very little talk of
individual cats here. As for respect, I don't respect people who are more
concerned about a cause then the cat in their own home. I would just like to
surround myself with people who have the same love for their own cats as I have
for mine and have no cause or agenda to promote. You know where the big news
for the day is that their cat did something cool or had a good checkup or wants
to talk about the problem that was discovered....all the plotting and planning
on how to steal a neighbors cats, the name calling and hatred just isn't what
having pets is about...at least not for normal pet owners.
s.holland2
news:20010617234501...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
This is rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour so people are going to discuss
health and behaviour problems. Some of the people here are very
experienced not 'activists with causes' as you describe them.
I and many others here do not consider what we do as *self-serving do
gooder crap* and if that is your opinion of cat rescue and welfare
organisations/charities work then it say's a lot about the type of
person you are.
If you only want to talk about the cute things cats have done then
this is probably not the place for you, though I am surprised that
with all your *experience* of the internet you can't find an
appropriate Ng to suit your needs.................
Please note I have not called you names or insulted you in this post.
--
Shirley
see my cat pictures at
http://communities.msn.co.uk/Friendsfamilyandfelines2
Darnit7
>I'm not the only one who would like to relate to others who are
>> simply cat moms and dads.
>
>severe, unnecessary pain in cats for no benefit for the cat.
SLK03 is no cat mom. Cat abuser and liar is what she is.
---MIKE---
issue (and understand that neither of you will change your minds), this
could become a newsgroup for pet owners again. Every time this thread
starts to die, someone starts it up again. Give it up - you can't win.
-MIKE
ver...@usa.net
Why do you persist in this? Usenet is a jungle. If you don't like what
these people are posting, you are free to ignore their posts and/or
killfile them.
Having lived for several years in countries where free speech didn't exist,
you would come to prefer the Usenet, name-calling and all. Really.
V.
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet for the Web
Beth
news:oHlX6.28950$A45.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> SLK03 <sl...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010617234501...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> > I'm sure I'm not the only one here getting fed up with activists and
> their
> > causes...the rhetoric and propaganda that goes with it...and all the
> > self-serving do gooder crap. Is there by some chance a newsgroup for
> pet owners
> > to discuss our pets and normal day to day stuff? no causes, no
> agendas, no
> > propaganda....just pets...the love we have for them, cute things
> they've done,
> > concerns we have etc? I don't mind talking about the cat population
> as a whole
> > but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to relate to others
> who are
> > simply cat moms and dads.
>
> If you only want to talk about the cute things cats have done then
> this is probably not the place for you, though I am surprised that
> with all your *experience* of the internet you can't find an
> appropriate Ng to suit your needs.................
I would recommend alt.cats. There are plenty of discussions on that
newsgroup that I think SLK would very much enjoy.
SLK03
cool...can sue two at a time for slander...my cats are gonna be living like
kings and queens by the time its over with more toys than they know what to do
with and vet bills will become a worry of the past. Not only does
http://members.aol.com/SLK03 show these accusations to be false but so do
videotapes, testimony from friends, family, vets, neighbors, landlords. keep
digging your own grave making false accusations of abuse where none exist. Just
remember declawing is a legal, routine, accepted, approved, minor, elective
medical procedure. Judges and jurys will not take kindly to your lies,
exagerations and misrepresentations.
SLK03
I'm willing to agree to disagree and put it to bed. I even posted a farewell on
this subject but when someone slanders me I will stand up for myself so I did
jump back in.
Gerry
"Beth" <nos...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:2SoX6.15459$aV1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Yup, the purrfect group - alt.cats. Only discussion about the cute things
cats do everyday, and how much we love'em. SLK would likely find that group
very pleasant.
Gerry
SLK03
>health and behaviour problems. Some of the people here are very
>experienced not 'activists with causes' as you describe them.
Some not most. Ok example....someone comes in and says their cat is peeing
inappropriately....three discussions break out....attempts at blaming it on
declawing and an argument starts, people demanding that the cat be spayed and
an argument breaks out, medical problems being diagnosed that may or may not be
and critisism that the cat hasn't been to the vet. No one here seems to be
capable of simply giving advice, it always leads to arguments by activists over
their causes. There have been a few threads like this where from personal
experience simply moving the litter box to the cats corner of choice could be
the solution. It seems like folks here go for the extremes and overlook the
obvious.
>I and many others here do not consider what we do as *self-serving do
>gooder crap* and if that is your opinion of cat rescue and welfare
>organisations/charities work then it say's a lot about the type of
>person you are.
Some people here look at cats as charity cases who need saving, average pet
owners don't see their pets in the same way. I don't care what quantity of cats
you've saved, the fact is it is very different than having your own cat that
you love completely and unconditionally. I remember the strays I've found and
helped, I remember the dogs I walked as a kid but the heartache is so much
greater and the loss so much deeper when its one of your own. Every so often I
think about those furry friends of days gone by but nothing compares to the
pain and loss I have for Logan who I will miss forever and think about
everyday. I would like to associate with people who feel as I do about their
pets just as you like hanging around with those who believe in your causes. I
have a terminally ill cat and a hyperthyroid cat....I know my time is limited
and they will be gone all too soon from my life....one is 18-21, the other is
14....how much time do I have left with these two? a year? maybe 4 or 5?
Worrying about the entire cat population is not a priority for me right
now...worrying about my cats is. The day Logan died, I'm sure plenty of cats
died in shelters and yes I feel sad about that but not even close to the
devastation I felt over losing one cat. However, I am glad that there are
people like yourself who do care for the others but it doesn't give anyone a
right to arrogance or being hateful.
I could tell you stories about animals I've found, rewards turned down, things
I've done but everything I've done to help animals has come from my heart and I
don't see it as another notch in the "save" column as some of you folks do. I
don't do things to boost my status or ego....I do things from the heart with no
need for recognition. That is part of why I don't like shelter workers....that
need for recognition and the arrogance that goes along with. It turns something
good into something very self-serving.
>Please note I have not called you names or insulted you in this post.
and I thank you for that. I too hope you will take what I have said in the
right way and not take any offense to it : )
Kaare
~Kaare, Gustav and the babycat.... (whose little 2 week claws a ripping my
hands to shreds when I bottle feed him!!! I would never DREAM of declawing
him... EVER.)
>Subject: Re: newsgroup for pet owners?
>From: twinmo...@webtv.net (---MIKE---)
>Date: 6/18/01 5:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <26134-3B...@storefull-128.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Pictures of my Gustav:
http://www.geocities.com/gustavkitty
The babycat's Web page:
http://www.geocities.com/gustavkitty/babycat/webpage.html
Please Email to Gustavs...@hotmail.com
Kiki
:>SLK03 is no cat mom. Cat abuser and liar is what she is.
: cool...can sue two at a time for slander...my cats are gonna be living like
It's not slander if it is true :P.
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Kiki
: I'm willing to agree to disagree and put it to bed. I even posted a farewell on
If you're so willing to, why do you keep feeling compelled to reply to
things? If you were relaly willing to agree to disagree, you'd stop
arguing the point entirely (and avoid trying to bring up recurrances of
the arguements when it seems more like even your posts to other things not
related to declaw or populations seem wanting to get back into a fight).
This is why people are calling you a liar, SLK. You say something like
this when it is quite obvious you don't mean a word of it. You can claim I
am slanderizing you but slander means some one is saying something about
you that isn't true in order to harm you. I am neither saying anything
untrue about you and I don't know you enough to want to harm you.
ver...@usa.net
> >SLK03 is no cat mom. Cat abuser and liar is what she is.
>
> cool...can sue two at a time for slander...
Hey, don't leave me out!
V.
(snip rest of SLK poop)
SLK03
yeah it is. I'm never gonna change your mind and you will never change
mine...lets agree to disagree, its the only solution.
> Its a matter of you lying and
>misrepresenting the severity of the procedure.
call any vets office and you will find that declawing is considered a minor
procedure unlike spaying which is considered major surgery. I am only
representing what trained medical professionals have deemed it....don't like it
take it up with them not with me.
SLK03
>can you say "unconditionally" after you amputated your cats' distal
>phalanges because you didn't want to get scratched! You know, there
>*really* is something wrong with you.
I also had them neutered to stop spraying and had them spayed to stop howling.
The fact is I love my cats not just certain parts of their anatomy. Go worship
some claws.
ver...@usa.net
Hey, SLK, I thought of a good job for you (since you seem to be a washout
at telemarketing - too much time on your hands). Can our cats rent your
fat butt and use it as a scratching post?
Michelle, LVT
>call any vets office and you will find that declawing is considered a minor
>procedure unlike spaying which is considered major surgery. I am only
>representing what trained medical professionals have deemed it....don't like it
>take it up with them not with me.
>
>
Speaking as a "medical Professional" in the veterinary field, *both*
surgeries are considered MAJOR procedures, due to the fact that
anesthesia is used. If anything, declawing is more "major" than
spaying/neutering because of the use of narcotic agents to address
pain issues.... narcotic agents which are usually given prior to
surgery, right after surgery, and usually 3-4 days following surgery.
Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
To email me just remove the "kitty" AND "puppy" from my head.
Darnit7
>at telemarketing - too much time on your hands). Can our cats rent your
>fat butt and use it as a scratching post?
>
ROFLMAO! Except we don't want our cats' claws to get contaminated!
s.holland2
SLK03 <sl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618131217...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> >This is rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour so people are going to
discuss
> >health and behaviour problems. Some of the people here are very
> >experienced not 'activists with causes' as you describe them.
>
> Some not most. Ok example....someone comes in and says their cat is
peeing
> inappropriately....three discussions break out....attempts at
blaming it on
> declawing and an argument starts,
Bad choice of example, I just read that thread and no mention of
declawing
>people demanding that the cat be spayed and
One person asked if the cat was spayed, no demands were made
> an argument breaks out, medical problems being diagnosed that may or
may not be
> and critisism that the cat hasn't been to the vet.
No one diagnosed a medical problem and no critisism just a suggestion
that the cat be seen by a vet to rule out possible UTI, are you
saying that is wrong or inappropriate advice ?
>No one here seems to be
> capable of simply giving advice,
Advice was given and you misrepresented it as a demand, see above
>it always leads to arguments by activists over
> their causes.
I saw no arguments by *activists*, just friendly advice from other cat
lovers !!!
There have been a few threads like this where from personal
> experience simply moving the litter box to the cats corner of choice
could be
> the solution. It seems like folks here go for the extremes and
overlook the
> obvious.
Suggesting ruling out a possible medical cause for the problem is
extreme !!!!
>
>
> Some people here look at cats as charity cases who need saving,
average pet
> owners don't see their pets in the same way.
There are cats who would be dead or suffering if it wasn't for the
volunteers that you despise so much, and it is because of the
*average* pet owner who doesn't take responsibility for their animal
and have them neutered that there is a need for the despised (by you)
cat charities and their volunteers
>I don't care what quantity of cats
> you've saved, the fact is it is very different than having your own
cat that
> you love completely and unconditionally.
I love all my cats (my own and foster cats) unconditionally, even the
ones with claws who occasionally use them on me. I wonder if you
understand the meaning of *unconditional*.
I remember the strays I've found and
> helped, I remember the dogs I walked as a kid but the heartache is
so much
> greater and the loss so much deeper when its one of your own. Every
so often I
> think about those furry friends of days gone by but nothing compares
to the
> pain and loss I have for Logan who I will miss forever and think
about
> everyday.
You have the arrogance to assume that you know how much pain I feel at
the death of any of the cats in my care !!!!!!! When did you become a
telepath/empath ?
I would like to associate with people who feel as I do about their
> pets just as you like hanging around with those who believe in your
causes.
Maybe you could enlighten me about what my causes are ? If you mean
the fact I believe every cat should be in a home where it is loved as
the unique individual creature it is and not subjected to uneccessary
*major* medical procedures that only benefit the owner, then yes you
could say that is a cause.
> The day Logan died, I'm sure plenty of cats
> died in shelters and yes I feel sad about that but not even close to
the
> devastation I felt over losing one cat. However, I am glad that
there are
> people like yourself who do care for the others but it doesn't give
anyone a
> right to arrogance or being hateful.
The only arrogance I have seen is yours in assuming you know how much
I love the cats I have cared for and that I love any of them less than
you do yours !!!!!!
>
> I could tell you stories about animals I've found, rewards turned
down, things
> I've done but everything I've done to help animals has come from my
heart and I
> don't see it as another notch in the "save" column as some of you
folks do. I
> don't do things to boost my status or ego....I do things from the
heart with no
> need for recognition. That is part of why I don't like shelter
workers....that
> need for recognition and the arrogance that goes along with. It
turns something
> good into something very self-serving.
I find it insulting that you see my involvement in cat rescue as a
boost to my ego and every cat I have fostered as a notch in the save
column. I can assure you that if I wanted recognition I would do
something a lot more noticable that foster rescue cats lol. You do
have a very warped idea as to why people do volunteer work.
>
> >Please note I have not called you names or insulted you in this
post.
>
> and I thank you for that. I too hope you will take what I have said
in the
> right way and not take any offense to it : )
Your reply was both insulting and offensive
s.holland2
> I also had them neutered to stop spraying and had them spayed to
stop howling.
> The fact is I love my cats not just certain parts of their anatomy.
Go worship
> some claws.
Neutering is done to stop cats from breeding and adding to the ever
growing cat population that end up in the care of the *despised* (by
you) rescue centres, the reduction in spraying and howling is an added
benefit to owners.
SLK03
>surgeries are considered MAJOR procedures, due to the fact that
>anesthesia is used.
then that puts teeth cleaning in the category of major procedures. Obviously
anytime a cat goes under there is a risk but looking at the surgeries alone
declawing is considered minor and spaying is considered major as it is an
invasive surgery.
>If anything, declawing is more "major" than
>spaying/neutering because of the use of narcotic agents to address
>pain issues.... narcotic agents which are usually given prior to
>surgery, right after surgery, and usually 3-4 days following surgery.
Wrong! my cats all came home within 24 hours, completely alert and not on any
medication besides clauvamox, no signs whatsoever of being "drugged". They
showed no signs of pain other than irritation with abdominal stitches. They
wanted to run and jump as if nothing was done to their paws....obviously I
followed instructions and curtailed that activity. Obviously my vet handles
things much differently than you or your vet and I'm grateful for it....14+
years ago I made the right choice in a vet.
SLK03
>the death of any of the cats in my care !!!!!!! When did you become a
>telepath/empath ?
don't get so defensive....its normal to feel greater sadness for those we are
closest to and that goes for hearing about a neighbors death vs hearing of a
loved one's death. It is very different having a cat from the time it is weeks
old knowing you will go through good times and bad, watch them grow up, grow
old and possibly sick and eventually die than caring for cute foster kitties
and giving them away after a few short weeks or months without the lifetime
responsibility and devotion. The fact that you can give a cat away makes us
very different in how we love our cats.
>The only arrogance I have seen is yours in assuming you know how much
>I love the cats I have cared for and that I love any of them less than
>you do yours !!!!!!
Do you have your own cats besides fosters? Could you give away your cats like
you do fosters? Say yes and you don't love your cats like I love mine. Say no
and you have made my point that there is a difference between being a pet owner
and a rescue worker. Hypothetical question: Would you rather have the same 3
cats (with lifespans close to ours) for your entire life or 10+ cats over the
course of your life?
>I find it insulting that you see my involvement in cat rescue as a
>boost to my ego and every cat I have fostered as a notch in the save
>column. I can assure you that if I wanted recognition I would do
>something a lot more noticable that foster rescue cats lol. You do
>have a very warped idea as to why people do volunteer work.
alot of it is self-serving. One who does a good deed from the heart doesn't
brag about it and use it to gain status even if it would be for their benefit
to publicize it. You have made it clear to everyone about your good deeds....if
they were as unselfish as you say you would keep them to yourself and just feel
good about it.
>Your reply was both insulting and offensive
oh well, wasn't meant to be but your post shows you are very defensive so am
not suprised you took it the way you did.
SLK03
>growing cat population that end up in the care of the *despised* (by
>you) rescue centres,
that's the reason an acticvist would give. As a pet owner the one and only
reason Damien was neutered is cause he kept spraying my screens and I couldn't
even get fresh air to breathe. Falkor was spayed cause she howled. Logan was
spayed cause the temptation was too great to breed her and her being retarded
they didn't know what she would do....I couldn't deal with the thought that she
might not have known what to do and may have killed the kittens. Cujo was
neutered due to an undescended testicle and because he was peeing on my bed.
>the reduction in spraying and howling is an added
>benefit to owners.
It was 100% my reason for choosing those procedures. No added benefit....THE
benefit!!!
SLK03
>about declawing but you... a know nothing...
The Know nothing who has had firsthand experience that contradict what her
textbooks say. My cats were not on pain medication, did not come home drugged
and showed no signs of pain or discomfort. Maybe she needs to find a qualified
vet who doesn't botch surgeries.
Plaz
sl...@aol.com (SLK03) wrote:
So you're saying the only reasons you have any medical procedures
performed on your cats are selfish reasons for your own benefit. Well,
no surprise there, I suppose.
SLK03
>proven liar, your "firsthand experience" is bullsh!t - like everything else
>you spew.
Maybe if she would observe the procedure done correctly rather than botched her
firsthand experience might be the same as mine. I will not lie to suit her
opinion....my cats were home in under 24 hours, not drugged, not on pain
medication, no signs of pain or discomfort, wanting to run jump and play. Those
are the facts....just cause you don't like them it doesn't change them.
Obviously it shows that I go to a qualified vet who performs the procedure
flawlessly and painlessly. Whether you agree with the procedure or not, if you
care about cats as you claim to, one would think you would hope that most
people's experiences are like mine not hers and most vets are like mine not
hers. But as we know cats are not your main concern....your personal opinions
and hatred of others is.
>> My cats were not on pain medication,
>
>You're also a cheap, stingy, lying, animal abuser.
Cheap??? LOL. lets see Logan eats thread= $1000, Damien's care $????, Falkors
care= $1000+ per year. Cujo's undescended testicle=$500. Oh I get it, you're
calling me cheap cause I didn't buy pain meds that weren't prescribed and
weren't needed. yeah right, give me a break!
Darnit7
>> I've done but everything I've done to help animals has come from my
>heart
Since when is cat mutilation something that comes from the heart?
Kiki
: Maybe if she would observe the procedure done correctly rather than botched her
: firsthand experience might be the same as mine. I will not lie to suit her
Ah, ok... so the person who just sees her cats going home apparently knows
more than vets and is qualified to say when they've botched the procedure.
You know, this is why I wonder if yo aren't just doing one large
experiment to see when we'll finally give up with you. Your posts get more
and more ridiculous the longer the arguement goes. I think you know you're
beaten... you just don't have the guts to admit it.
SLK03
ROFLMAO!!!!
SLK03
>performed on your cats are selfish reasons for your own benefit. Well,
>no surprise there, I suppose.
nope, neutering, spaying, declawing benefited both my cats and myself. My
reasons are simply my reasons....may not be your reasons but to each his own.
Gerry
> <snip>
> >Your reply was both insulting and offensive
>
> oh well, wasn't meant to be but your post shows you are very defensive so
am
> not suprised you took it the way you did.
Let me get this straight. You post that everyone is insulting here.
Shirley then tells you about the background of many posters here and the
purpose of this newsgroup in a calm non-insulting way. Then you respond
with the following insults:
(Shirley is:
1. Arrogant
2. Hateful
3. Motivated to care about cats to boost ego.
4. Motivated to care about cats for status.
5. Motivated to save cats because of the need for recognition.
6. Self-Serving
7. Only reason to save animals is to 'put another notch in the "save"
column.')
And after this barrage of insults listed above, Shirley disagrees so you
tell her you she is "defensive". Well you're a lying, animal abusing,
psychotic bitch who doesn't give a flying f**k about anything but herself.
But don't worry I wouldn't ever dream of insulting or offending you so
please don't get defensive. Ok? :-)
Gerry
SLK03
>more than vets and is qualified to say when they've botched the procedure.
The pet owner who knows her cats and how they behave picks them up in under 24
hours, not drugged, not in pain, playful and with no pain meds and yet I'm
supposed to listen to some vet tech tell me that my cats got medication 3-4
days after...which obviously they did not. From her description it does sound
like my vet is more of an expert at doing the procedure.
SLK03
>with the following insults:
well if the shoe fits....
Gerry
> >Then you respond
> >with the following insults:
>
> well if the shoe fits....
Oh so you were lying with the following then:
Shirley:
> >Your reply was both insulting and offensive
SLK:
> oh well, wasn't meant to be but your post shows you are very defensive so
am
> not suprised you took it the way you did.
Sorry, it's difficult to keep up with your lies!
Gerry
Plaz
sl...@aol.com (SLK03) wrote:
> declawing benefited both my cats
How? In what way?
Cathy Friedmann
> >This is rec.pets.cats.health+behaviour so people are going to discuss
> >health and behaviour problems. Some of the people here are very
> >experienced not 'activists with causes' as you describe them.
> Some not most. Ok example....someone comes in and says their cat is peeing
> inappropriately....three discussions break out <snipped>
There have been a few threads like this where from personal
> experience simply moving the litter box to the cats corner of choice could
be
> the solution. It seems like folks here go for the extremes and overlook
the
> obvious.
I was one person - and often am - to suggest that a cat w/ an inappropriate
peeing problem get examined by the vet, since it may very well be a
UTI/medical problem. Why? Because it very often *is* a medical problem, in
which case it wouldn't matter if one had 10 litter boxes or *where* they
were placed. If it isn't a medical probem, fine, but why overlook it?
(Would *you* want to go untreated for an undiagnosed UTI?)
> >I and many others here do not consider what we do as *self-serving do
> >gooder crap* and if that is your opinion of cat rescue and welfare
> >organisations/charities work then it say's a lot about the type of
> >person you are.
>
> Some people here look at cats as charity cases who need saving, average
pet
> owners don't see their pets in the same way. I don't care what quantity of
cats
> you've saved, the fact is it is very different than having your own cat
that
> you love completely and unconditionally.
I beg to differ w/ this statement. I am a very average cat owner. I'm not
into rescue, per se, yet all of my cats actually have been rescues. My
first cat was an unwanted kitten of an unwanted mother cat & her litter (the
other were adopted by a friend & other people); the next cat, Debbie, was a
literally starving, pregnant stray, taken in by my sister in the middle of a
NE winter - whom I adopted a year later; I adopted my 3rd cat from the
Humane Society, & my youngest cat was a neighborhood stray, w/ no home,
living outside100% of the time - not neutered, and coughhing & sneezing
because of completely clogged-up ears, along w/ the usual fleas & worms.
> I have a terminally ill cat and a hyperthyroid cat....I know my time is
limited
> and they will be gone all too soon from my life....one is 18-21, the other
is
> 14....how much time do I have left with these two? a year? maybe 4 or 5?
Well, hello... sorry to break it to you - but you're not the only one who's
caring for a terminally ill cat. Debbie was already seriously & chronically
ill w/ liver disease (besides being hypothyroid) when I adopted Herrie (the
neighborhood stray); she is now 16 & also has CRF & is on a medical regimen
that boggles even my mind. And there are many more people on this ng who
are also caring for their terminally ill cats, have in the past, &/or will
in the future. Comes w/ the territory.
Cathy
--
"Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap." Paul Simon
("René & Georgette Magritte with their Dog after the War")
SLK03
>
>Shirley:
>> >Your reply was both insulting and offensive
>
>SLK:
>> oh well, wasn't meant to be but your post shows you are very defensive so
>am
>> not suprised you took it the way you did.
actually the "if the shoe fits..." comment was directed at you gerry.
Kiki
: supposed to listen to some vet tech tell me that my cats got medication 3-4
: days after...which obviously they did not. From her description it does sound
: like my vet is more of an expert at doing the procedure.
Whatever SLK.
I'm curious, SLK.. have you ever admitted you're wrong? I mean, not just
in this conversation, or others on this newsgorup. In your life.. have
you ever been able to admit you are wrong or are you too cowardly or think
you are always right? If number one, please at least be able toa dmit to
yourself you are wrong, if two... I got news for you hon... no one is
ever 100% right. You know... you might actually be wrong! *boggle*
SLK03
>into rescue, per se, yet all of my cats actually have been rescues.
The difference between us is that I don't see mine as rescues....they found me
and I found them regardless of the circumstances. Damien was a stray, Logan and
Falkor were both found through ads in the paper....Falkor was just days away
from being dumped at the shelter. And Cujo is a Ragdoll that I got from a
breeder. I have treated them all equally and always will....purebred status
means nothing and neither does being a stray. They are my companions not
charity cases. As I've said many times before I don't care how they came into
this world only that they came into my life and my heart.
SLK03
>in this conversation, or others on this newsgorup. In your life.. have
>you ever been able to admit you are wrong or are you too cowardly or think
>you are always right?
I've admitted I'm wrong in situations where that was the case but this
situation ain't one of them.
Gerry
Umm... all I wanted to know is how you could pack so many insults into one
post, and then tell a poster you were not meaning to be insulting or
offensive?
Gerry
Cathy Friedmann
that I consider myself a very average cat person/owner. But the _fact_ of
the matter is, they *were* rescued, when I adopted them.
Cathy
--
"Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap." Paul Simon
("René & Georgette Magritte with their Dog after the War")
SLK03 <sl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618215239...@ng-md1.aol.com...
Sherry
>> newsgroup that I think SLK would very much enjoy.
>>
>
>Yup, the purrfect group - alt.cats. Only discussion about the cute things
>cats do everyday, and how much we love'em. SLK would likely find that group
>very pleasant.
>
>Gerry
Yes, alt.cats is definitely the forum for SLK03. She and the Boobster will get
on famously, won't they? It's the perfect match--then all we have to do is
killfile the 2 of them, and they'll be too busy to respond to anything else.
Sherry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Gerry
"Sherry " <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618221500...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Heck, there would hardly be a need to killfile them. Just ignore the
perpetual and exclusive Fradbo-SLK thread that would occupy both and go on
for the rest of their lives ;-)
I guess you already figured out I was trying to kill two birds with one
stone eh? LOL
Gerry
Kiki
: Umm... all I wanted to know is how you could pack so many insults into one
: post, and then tell a poster you were not meaning to be insulting or
: offensive?
Because SLK believes in do unto others whatever the hell she wants but
they shouldn't do the same onto her unless it benefits her.
Michelle, LVT
>then that puts teeth cleaning in the category of major procedures. Obviously
>anytime a cat goes under there is a risk
Correct, any procedure that requires anesthesia (general) is
considered a MAJOR procedure
>but looking at the surgeries alone
>declawing is considered minor and spaying is considered major as it is an
>invasive surgery.
Incorrect. Yes, spaying, and even neutering in comparison to
declawing, are considered "invasive", but not more or less "major".
There is a higher risk of infection associated with declawing than
with spay/neuter because of the inherent behaviour/nature of the cat.
A cat does not walk on it's abdomen, it does not stand on it's abdomen
while urinating and defecating, it does not jump down from heights
onto it's abdomen.... all of which occurs with a declawed cat. If a
cat lays in it's soiled litterbox, there is also an increase in the
risk of infection associated with that specific behaviour, but not as
great as a cat that's been declawed and *will* do the above listed
behaviours.
>
>Wrong! my cats all came home within 24 hours, completely alert and not on any
>medication besides clauvamox, no signs whatsoever of being "drugged".
It is unusual and perhaps even negligent on the part of the
attending veterinarian, to send home a declaw patient prior to the 48
hour "waiting period". The AVMA recommends this "waiting period"
following surgery for the following reasons:
1. Leave the bandages on overnight to allow the injured tissue to
begin the healing process without undue loss of blood (regardless of
the protocol used to "seal" the wounds) and to minimize the patient's
attempt at self cleaning (which slows the initial healing process by
keeping the injured aread wet and not allowing the tissue to heal)
Also to *fully* recover from whatever anesthetic is used.
2. The following day, remove the bandages and *observe* the cat for
signs of non-healing behaviour (licking, excitable movement, refusal
to move) and to observe that the cat's normal eating and voiding
behaviour has resumed.
3. Discharge the patient only after the above has been satisfied.
>They
>showed no signs of pain other than irritation with abdominal stitches.
They showed no symptoms that you observed, but cats will and
do rely on their instincts when the issue of pain is presented. They
will and do not show symptoms untill the pain or problem has become
too much for them to hide.
>They
>wanted to run and jump as if nothing was done to their paws....
Again, most cats will and do try to resume normal visually
observable behaviour, regardless of whether they are in pain or not.
It is not until the pain is too much for them to hide that they will
"let you know".
>obviously I
>followed instructions and curtailed that activity.
As was the proper advice from the attending veterinarian.
>Obviously my vet handles
>things much differently than you or your vet and I'm grateful for it....14+
>years ago I made the right choice in a vet.
If your vet has not changed his/her practices to follow the
basic current education regarding pain management and health, than you
should consider another alternative than that vet. Much research has
been done within the last 5 years (?) to determine that pain and it's
management, especially in regard to the declawing procedure, should be
of primary and principal concern.
Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
To email me just remove the "kitty" AND "puppy" from my head.
SLK03
nope, not proven wrong at all...we simply have a difference of opinion.
Actually you've been proven to be a coward. If you are so sure that declawing
does what you say go to http://members.aol.com/SLK03 and tell me in which
pictures did my cats have claws and in which one they don't. You have surely
read enough to deal with a real life situation or have you?
Michelle, LVT
>The Know nothing who has had firsthand experience that contradict what her
>textbooks say.
Actually, it's not my textbooks that are saying that.... it's
me. And what you've stated previously does not really contradict what
I've stated, it's simply points out that the attending veterinarian
you prefer did not, at that time, realize that pain was/would be an
issue of great importance. As for the release time, the AVMA has
always recommended the 48 hour waiting period for the reasons I've
listed in another reply.
>My cats were not on pain medication, did not come home drugged
>and showed no signs of pain or discomfort. Maybe she needs to find a qualified
>vet who doesn't botch surgeries.
I can only assume that your cats were not on pain medication
(14 years ago) because the attending veterinarian did not know that
pain and it's management was of great importance. Very few vets
really did.... *but* now they do and it's of primary importance that
the issue of pain and it's management be addressed today. I've
already addressed the second and third comment on another reply. As
for finding "a qualified vet who doesn't botch surgeries".... sorry,
but I've worked for board certified surgeons, as well as private
practitioners and they *all* address the issue of pain, it's
management, and the correct prodedures and protocols in relation to
declawing, as well as other major procedures.
SLK03
>Michelle or you.... you aren't even in the running...
well keep believing her lies and explanations about botched surgeries. You
can't handle the truth!
Michelle, LVT
>
>Maybe if she would observe the procedure done correctly rather than botched her
>firsthand experience might be the same as mine.
Firstly, I would appreciate it if you would address me,
specifically, when making a statement such as above.... especially
since it's the *polite* thing to do, and you're always *polite*,
right?
Secondly, I have observed some rather disputable declaw
procedures. The majority of my 20 + years as a tech, however, has
been observing, assisting, performing procedures that were flawless
and correct.... and specifically declaw procedures. As for my
"firsthand experience", I'm sure that a) you would not really wish to
hear the details of what happens from start to end in a declaw
procedure, and b) you wouldn't really glean the information anyway.
>I will not lie to suit her
>opinion....
I don't recal *ever* asking or coercing you to lie to "suit"
my opinion..... ever. Please retract your statement.
>my cats were home in under 24 hours, not drugged, not on pain
>medication, no signs of pain or discomfort, wanting to run jump and play. Those
>are the facts....just cause you don't like them it doesn't change them.
Yes, they may be the "facts" in this case, but again the
"fact" remains that 14 years ago, vets did not really understand the
issue of pain and it's management. They do today, and hopefully in
the future your vet will address them in the correct manner and with
the correct protocols in mind.
<snip>
>Whether you agree with the procedure or not, if you
>care about cats as you claim to, one would think you would hope that most
>people's experiences are like mine not hers and most vets are like mine not
>hers.
I'm not sure where this is coming from, but as for our
experiences being similar.... they are not. I had a cat for 18 +
years .... not declawed. However, I have assisted, observed,
performed the procedure, which automatically does not afford any
similarity between our experiences. As for the vets issue.... I
certainly hope that your vet is as informed, current on
education/research, compassionate, concerned and committed to
continuing education as the vets and board certified surgeons I have
had the pleasure to work with. If not, you may wish to re-think your
stance with your vet.
<snipped other irrelevant post>
Kiki
: practitioners and they *all* address the issue of pain, it's
: management, and the correct prodedures and protocols in relation to
: declawing, as well as other major procedures.
She'll never listen to you. You could be the best animal surgeon with a
large reputation and she'll claim that you must not know what you're doing
and her with her no degree and no experience at all with vet procedures
knows better than you.
Glad to see you're back though. I haven't seen a post from you in a
while :). One of the more level headed posters who could stand to post in
this group.
SLK03
>while urinating and defecating, it does not jump down from heights
>onto it's abdomen.... all of which occurs with a declawed cat.
If you follow the aftercare instructions there is no jumping up or down and
believe me I spent days awake without sleep to follow the instructions with
kitties who wanted go right back into their normal behavior.
>If a
>cat lays in it's soiled litterbox, there is also an increase in the
>risk of infection associated with that specific behaviour, but not as
>great as a cat that's been declawed
This is why shredded newspaper and paper towels are advised and are changed
each time the cat uses the litterbox.
>and *will* do the above listed
>behaviours.
not if they have an owner who is responsible and dilligent about following all
aftercare instructions.
>3. Discharge the patient only after the above has been satisfied.
which they were within 24 hours as the procedure was performed correctly and my
cats didn't exhibit any of the warning signs you describe.
>They showed no symptoms that you observed, but cats will and
>do rely on their instincts when the issue of pain is presented. They
>will and do not show symptoms untill the pain or problem has become
>too much for them to hide.
excuse me but if they felt comfortable enough not to hide discomfort with their
abdomen I am sure they would have shown discomfort with their paws if there had
been any discomfort that is.
>Again, most cats will and do try to resume normal visually
>observable behaviour, regardless of whether they are in pain or not.
and you don't think that maybe they aren't in pain. Your perception is
warped...I think they must be in pain, therefore they are? Try looking at what
is rather than what you think should be.
Michelle, LVT
>The pet owner who knows her cats and how they behave picks them up in under 24
>hours, not drugged, not in pain, playful and with no pain meds and yet I'm
>supposed to listen to some vet tech tell me that my cats got medication 3-4
>days after...which obviously they did not. From her description it does sound
>like my vet is more of an expert at doing the procedure.
>
Good grief, you really are being quite obtuse here, aren't
you. When did I *ever* state that *your* cats received medication? I
stated that in reference to the deliberation of whether spaying is
more of a "major" surgery than declawing, that declawing is considered
more "major" because of the use of narcotics to address the issue of
pain and it's management. Please retract your statement above.
As for your assumption, your vet is only as "expert" as his/her
education.... as is the situation with *any* vet. Since research into
the issue of pain and it's management has been proceeding over the
years, most competent vets will and do address this issue with the
proper use of pain managing narcotic agents, given prior to the
declawing surgery, after the declawing surgery, and post operatively
for 3-4 days following the declaw surgery. Any vet who does not
address the issue of pain and its management of any patient within
their care is being negligent.
Michelle, LVT
>well keep believing her lies and explanations about botched surgeries. You
>can't handle the truth!
Pardon me, but please point out any "lies" I have written. I
also do not recall *ever* explaining about a "botched surgery". I
have, however, given information regarding the accepted and approved
medically ethical research regarding the use of narcotics as a measure
to address the issue of pain and its management. Please retract your
statement.
Michelle, LVT
>>A cat does not walk on it's abdomen, it does not stand on it's abdomen
>>while urinating and defecating, it does not jump down from heights
>>onto it's abdomen.... all of which occurs with a declawed cat.
>
>If you follow the aftercare instructions there is no jumping up or down and
>believe me I spent days awake without sleep to follow the instructions with
>kitties who wanted go right back into their normal behavior.
>
Please re-read what I've written above, as you have
misunderstood the *analogy*.
>>If a
>>cat lays in it's soiled litterbox, there is also an increase in the
>>risk of infection associated with that specific behaviour, but not as
>>great as a cat that's been declawed
>
>This is why shredded newspaper and paper towels are advised and are changed
>each time the cat uses the litterbox.
Incorrect. Again, as was pointed out in another thread.... I
am not referring to "litter" contamination, but to the inherent
contamination of a cat who will and does urinate and defecate in the
place where it is standing (the litterbox). There is no way any
owner, no matter how meticulous, can prevent this from happening. The
only way plausible is to hold the cat above the box while it urinates
and defecates *all* the time during the healing process.
>
>>and *will* do the above listed
>>behaviours.
>
>not if they have an owner who is responsible and dilligent about following all
>aftercare instructions.
Please read above again.
>
>>3. Discharge the patient only after the above has been satisfied.
>
>which they were within 24 hours as the procedure was performed correctly and my
>cats didn't exhibit any of the warning signs you describe.
Any veterinarian who chooses to offer food or water to a
still- recovering anesthetic patient is negligent at best. Vomiting
and associated aspirate pneumonia are minor problems when compared to
the very reall danger of suffocation from a cat's own vomitus. The
procedure may have been performed correctly, but I have serious doubts
about their aftercare (at the vet) from what you describe. Also, I
did not describe any warning signs, per se.... what I described was
basic post-operative protocol that any vet today should (and most do)
follow.
>
>>They showed no symptoms that you observed, but cats will and
>>do rely on their instincts when the issue of pain is presented. They
>>will and do not show symptoms untill the pain or problem has become
>>too much for them to hide.
>
>excuse me but if they felt comfortable enough not to hide discomfort with their
>abdomen I am sure they would have shown discomfort with their paws if there had
>been any discomfort that is.
Describe what you feel they displayed as "discomfort" at their
incision site.
>
>>Again, most cats will and do try to resume normal visually
>>observable behaviour, regardless of whether they are in pain or not.
>
>and you don't think that maybe they aren't in pain. Your perception is
>warped...I think they must be in pain, therefore they are? Try looking at what
>is rather than what you think should be.
There are varying degrees of pain. It has, however, been
described to you what occurs in a declaw surgery, as well as what
occurs in a spay/neuter surgery. The associated nerves, different
angle of step and resulting differentiation in gait, etc. A paper cut
is painful, though perhaps not as painful as abdominal surgery or
amputation. What makes you think that your, or anyone's cats,
*aren't* in pain (considering that you've been informed of a cat's
nature in hiding it's pain)? As for my perception.... you are
incorrect. My educated perception is that pain is a real issue and
should be addressed at all times, with associating minor changes in
protocol in terms of what is used to address the pain issue and for
how long, but the fact remains that pain is still an issue. As for
your last statement, perhaps you should follow your own advice and
begin educating yourself with current information instead of relying
on your "perception" and outdated modes of thinking.
SLK03
no your opinions are simply that, your opinions. Why don't we agree to disagree
already and why don't you stop the personal attacks already. Wanna discuss
issues, lets discuss them like adults...any chance you are capable of doing so?
SLK03
>I've stated, it's simply points out that the attending veterinarian
>you prefer did not, at that time, realize that pain was/would be an
>issue of great importance.
There was no pain. none, zero, zilch. Just because you want there to be doesn't
make it so.
>As for the release time, the AVMA has
>always recommended the 48 hour waiting period for the reasons I've
>listed in another reply.
so be it and if people are in the hospital for a procedure and all goes well
they are released early. My cats did great and were released at the appropriate
time.
>I can only assume that your cats were not on pain medication
>(14 years ago) because the attending veterinarian did not know that
>pain and it's management was of great importance.
My cat wasn't on pain meds 3 years ago....cause he didn't need any and neither
did my cat 14 years ago or my cats 12 years ago. Just cause you think there
should be pain doesn't mean there is.
>As
>for finding "a qualified vet who doesn't botch surgeries".... sorry,
>but I've worked for board certified surgeons, as well as private
>practitioners and they *all* address the issue of pain,
Are the cats really in pain or is the vet assuming like you do? Do you realize
that in people antibiotics are overprescribed because of a "better safe than
sorry" mentallity? Well maybe your vet has that mentalliy when it comes to
narcotics. I'm thankful I have a vet who only prescribes medication when it is
actually needed.
SLK03
>also do not recall *ever* explaining about a "botched surgery". I
>have, however, given information regarding the accepted and approved
>medically ethical research regarding the use of narcotics as a measure
>to address the issue of pain and its management. Please retract your
>statement.
All I can say is that what you describe is not what my cats went through...I'm
not talking one cat, I'm talking 4. I'm sure you are telling the truth about
what you personally have dealt with but you must accept the fact that others
experiences and observations are very different from your own. You were wrong
to attempt to tell me what my cats went through....I was here, you were not.
You assumed something that was false. I cannot retract a statement unless you
rephrase your statement and leave my cats out of it and stop assuming things
that are not correct.
SLK03
>my opinion..... ever. Please retract your statement.
The fact that you assumed how my cats aftercare went and what was done was
incorrect. I apologize for using the word lie since you simply wrongly assumed.
SLK03
>incision site.
Cujo who had an undescended testicle removed and had an elizabethan collar on
cause he wouldn't leave his abdomen alone figured out how to balance against
the wall and rub the collar over the incision.He was continuously at this no
matter how many times I put a stop to it and he managed to rip out a stitch and
got sent back to the vet for 3 days of supervised care as I had been up for 3
days straight and just didn't have the energy any longer. On the other hand he
was 4-paw declawed and when he wasn't trying to rip sttitches out of his
abdomen was wanting to jump up to the desk, walking around and even running.
You could tell as they laid down how they tried to get on their side or backs
without their abdomen touching the surface and would meow or whimper if you
tried to touch their tummys...two females and Cujo behaved in this manner. On
the other hand they were petting my face, allowing me to pet their paws and
wanting to play. Years ago I got worried when I got Damien home from being
neutered and declawed and he started washing his face like nothing was
different...I called the vet wanting to know if I should stop him and was told
to watch how he licks his paws...if it is within the normal context of face
washing (which it was) all is fine but if he overlicks then I need to curtail
that activity. Declawing didn't phase them at all but being spayed did.
s.holland2
news:5yxX6.278588$eK2.57...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
>
> Let me get this straight. You post that everyone is insulting here.
> Shirley then tells you about the background of many posters here and
the
> purpose of this newsgroup in a calm non-insulting way. Then you
respond
> with the following insults:
>
>
<insults from SLK snipped even though they gave me the best laugh I've
had so far today>
> And after this barrage of insults listed above, Shirley disagrees so
you
> tell her you she is "defensive". Well you're a lying, animal
abusing,
> psychotic bitch who doesn't give a flying f**k about anything but
herself.
> But don't worry I wouldn't ever dream of insulting or offending you
so
> please don't get defensive. Ok? :-)
>
> Gerry
>
>
>
I couldn't have put it better myself :-), but I will add while I
found the reply in itself insulting, on a personal level I find SLK's
opinion of me extremely amusing and I enjoy goading her into making a
complete ass of herself.
How's the compost heap ? <g>
--
Shirley
see my cat pictures at
http://communities.msn.co.uk/Friendsfamilyandfelines2
s.holland2
>
> The fact that you assumed how my cats aftercare went and what was
done was
> incorrect. I apologize for using the word lie since you simply
wrongly assumed.
I saw no such assumption in Michelle's reply to you, can we add
comprehension to the list of things you know nothing about ?
s.holland2
> >
> > oh well, wasn't meant to be but your post shows you are very
defensive so
> am
> > not suprised you took it the way you did.
Defensive ! LOL. Your misrepresentation and manipulation of the *cat
peeing in the corner* thread was defensive. It seems to me that you
are getting very rattled/hysterical with your responses now.
Michelle, LVT
>>Pardon me, but please point out any "lies" I have written. I
>>also do not recall *ever* explaining about a "botched surgery". I
>>have, however, given information regarding the accepted and approved
>>medically ethical research regarding the use of narcotics as a measure
>>to address the issue of pain and its management. Please retract your
>>statement.
>
>All I can say is that what you describe is not what my cats went through...I'm
>not talking one cat, I'm talking 4.
And as I stated in previous posts... 14 years ago,
veterinarians did not know/realize/anticipate that pain and it's
management would be an important issue. What I describe is what
*current* protocol, consideration, and compassion and education have
changed. Pain and its management is an important issue, and any
veterinarian that does not consider pain and it's management is
negligent.
>I'm sure you are telling the truth about
>what you personally have dealt with but you must accept the fact that others
>experiences and observations are very different from your own.
I would agree that other people's experiences and observations
are different than my own... the world would be a very dull place
otherwise. However, unless someone is a licensed veterinary
technician, a licensed veterinarian, or someone who has assisted in
declaw surgeries should not be making false assumptions that their
"observations" of a fully recovered cat and its associated return to
normal behaviour once taken home is by any stretch of the measure
atypical. As has been pointed out.... cats will hide their pain.
Please refer to other posts for more in-depth responses regarding cats
hiding their pain.
>You were wrong
>to attempt to tell me what my cats went through....I was here, you were not.
As has been stated to you again and again.... I never "told
you what your cats went through". Please retract your statement.
>You assumed something that was false.
I did not *assume* anything, least of all something false. I
responded to your misconception that a declaw surgery was minor in
comparison to a spay/neuter surgery. I have stated why.
>I cannot retract a statement unless you
>rephrase your statement and leave my cats out of it and stop assuming things
>that are not correct.
You stated the following:
"well keep believing her lies and explanations about botched
surgeries. You can't handle the truth!
I have pointed out to you that 1) I did not lie, and 2) I offered NO
explainations about "botched" surgeries. As I never included your
cats in my statement, (please see below), and as there is no need to
rephrase my statement to make it any more clear, and as I am not
assuming things that are not correct (I am, in fact, providing
medically accepted ethical knowledge), please retract your statement.
Original statement:
Speaking as a "medical Professional" in the veterinary field, *both*
surgeries are considered MAJOR procedures, due to the fact that
anesthesia is used. If anything, declawing is more "major" than
spaying/neutering because of the use of narcotic agents to address
pain issues.... narcotic agents which are usually given prior to
surgery, right after surgery, and usually 3-4 days following surgery.
Michelle, LVT
I did not assume, either, in how your cats aftercare went and what was
done was incorrect in your reference. I simply provided information
to refute your misconception that a declaw surgery was "minor" in
comparison to a spay/neuter.
It was not until another reply that I suggested that if your
veterinarian has not changed his/her protocol to address the very real
issue of pain and it's management that you might wish to re-think your
association with that particular veterinarian. Please try and keep
the references accurate.
Miranda Jones
>
> Sorry, it's difficult to keep up with your lies!
It's difficult to keep up with them because she refuses to follow
acceptable usenet standards and keep the headers in with her post, so
it's impossible to figure out half the time who she is quoting.
To SLK03: See the part at the top? Where it says "So and so wrote in
message"? There's a reason those are there!
--
Miranda Jones
mlj (at) pobox.com
www.thefruitbowl.org
While Eeyore frets and Piglet hesitates and Rabbit calculates
and Owl pontificates, Pooh just is." -- The Tao of Pooh
SLK03
>you should read her posts from two years ago!
If you are talking about me my e-mail is the same as it was 2 years
ago.....unlike some people on here I don't feel the need to change my identity.
SLK03
>opinion of me extremely amusing
>and I enjoy goading her into making a
>complete ass of herself.
So you have now admitted that you are a troll and that your purpose is to flame
others? How nice.
SLK03
>done was incorrect in your reference. I simply provided information
>to refute your misconception that a declaw surgery was "minor" in
>comparison to a spay/neuter.
In my experience and observation I will differ with you as I saw no problems or
discomfort from declawing...however I saw it from spaying. Spaying is an
invasive surgery and that being the case it is the most major of the surgeries.
Declawing and neutering are considered minor as they are not invasive
surgeries.
>It was not until another reply that I suggested that if your
>veterinarian has not changed his/her protocol to address the very real
>issue of pain and it's management that you might wish to re-think your
>association with that particular veterinarian.
Since there was no pain there was nothing to address. My vet has done great
with my cats....saving Logan's life when she ate the thread and providing
Damien with the appropriate treatment as unconventional as it may be (use of
prednisone to slow down growth of tumors). She has done great with all of them
and knows them without needing to refer to charts for basic knowledge about
them. She takes calls and returns calls in a prompt manner. There is another
vet in the practice that I feel comfortable with as well and every so often set
appointments with her so she is up to date on my cats as well....always good to
have a backup just in case my vet is on vacation or has a day off. I am in a
situation where they are willing to bill me and set up payment plans when
needed so money is never the deciding factor in my cats care. I would never
consider switching vets especially based on your imagined pain where there is
none.
SLK03
>veterinarians did not know/realize/anticipate that pain and it's
>management would be an important issue.
no need to control it.
>However, unless someone is a licensed veterinary
>technician, a licensed veterinarian, or someone who has assisted in
>declaw surgeries should not be making false assumptions that their
>"observations" of a fully recovered cat and its associated return to
>normal behaviour once taken home is by any stretch of the measure
>atypical. As has been pointed out.... cats will hide their pain.
First of all as I stated I followed all aftercare instructions and went 3+ days
without sleep in order to follow them at all times. A pet owner who is familiar
with their pets is more likely to notice the subtle signs of pain and
discomfort or that something is wrong than someone who is not around them 24/7.
When Logan ate the thread I noticed that she had thrown up a few times (not all
that unusual for cats) and her eyes looked glassy but it was all very
subtle.....there was an instinct in me that knew something was really wrong. My
vet reacted to my feelings about the situation rather than simply on the
condition of my cat....it took a barium x-ray to diagnose it....the thread did
not show up on a regular x-ray or ultrasound and blood tests were fine. Odds
are you would have looked at her and thought she had a cold or just wasn't
feeling well. With Damien I noticed that he slowed down and yes he was getting
older but there was just something that wasn't right. They did x-rays and
ultrasound where something abnormal was detected but a tumor hadn't formed yet.
It was initially thought that he had an infection. It was a full 6 weeks later
that a tumor showed up. One of the reasons he's beaten the odds as he has was
starting treatment right at the start. Call it maternal instinct if you will
but if something is wrong with my cats I know it and feel it.
Logan's death devastated me like nothing in this world could. She had a sudden
heart attack....no warning, no signs not even subtle, nothing. I beat myself up
for a long time feeling that I should have known something was wrong. Sometimes
things happen suddenly....my parents have told me of several people they were
aquainted with who also died very suddenly, one of which died at her front door
after leaving the doctors with a clean bill of health. I refuse to create
imaginary pain where none existed...my cats showed signs of discomfort from
spay but not from declaw.
On a funny note...Falkor is a little 7 lb cat who definitely has a temper to
make up for what she lacks in size...she wants her way and that's final.This is
a cat who will talk back to me...feel like I'm turning into my mom as I respond
with "because I said so" as she stares at me defiantly <g>. I'm around her
enough to know that its all tough talk and nothing more....the vet tech on the
other hand is nervous around her...Falkor hisses and lets off really obnoxious
meows. Its kind of amusing watching how others react and really goes to the
point that the pet owner knows their cats better than anyone else.
SLK03
>message"? There's a reason those are there!
When I quote someone's post one has to assume that the writer will recognize
what he/she wrote. When I am responding to someone directly they will know it
because of that simple fact. For all others who want to jump into the
conversation that wasn't directed at them, feel free to do so....just pay a
little more attention to what is going on.
Plaz
sl...@aol.com (SLK03) wrote:
> > You've been *proven* wrong at least *5* times.
>
> nope, not proven wrong at all...we simply have a difference of opinion.
So, if I insist over and over that 2+2=5, and you say 2+2=4, do we just
have a difference of opinion?
SLK03
>have a difference of opinion?
no its more like someone from the US pulling out a dollar bill and someone from
Canada doing the same. They are both dollars except when comparing the two the
US dollar bill is worth $1.50. We are both right saying they are dollars yet
the perception of what a dollar is worth is different. Declawing is an elective
procedure...if you agree with it, choose it and if you don't agree with it,
don't choose it. It's just that simple. Our perceptions of the procedure are
different but we are both right in the decisions we make for our own cats.
ver...@usa.net
Are you sure you're not just on a really bad acid trip?
V.
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet for the Web
Kiki
:>on a personal level I find SLK's
At least she admits it *peer*.
Tigress
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Kiki
:>To SLK03: See the part at the top? Where it says "So and so wrote in
:>message"? There's a reason those are there!
: When I quote someone's post one has to assume that the writer will recognize
: what he/she wrote. When I am responding to someone directly they will know it
But no one else will!!! It's considered polite to leave above who you are
posting to. You who bitch about politeness should realize that maybe
people want to know who you are replying to.
Dawn
> >And what you've stated previously does not really contradict what
> >I've stated, it's simply points out that the attending veterinarian
> >you prefer did not, at that time, realize that pain was/would be an
> >issue of great importance.
>
> There was no pain. none, zero, zilch. Just because you want there to be
doesn't
> make it so.
SLK...I'm going to have to say this...those animals went through pain...you
probably didn't see it.
When I had my cats done a few years ago, I know they had pain...because
sometimes when they jumped to the floor (in the kitchen with no carpeting)
one of the cats would sit and shake one of her paws. Reading all of this
stuff about declawing has brought that memory back. I had forgotten about
it totally. It's too late to wish I'd never done it...but now that I know
what is involved...I would never put a cat through that again...EVER. My
cats also came back home the day after the surgery. If you know that your
cats had pain from their neutering...why couldn't they have had pain from
the declawing?
Dawn ( :
s.holland2
SLK03 <sl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010619120322...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Not others just *you*
You insult me and I will enable you to make a fool of yourself, there
was nothing inflammatory in my replies to you unlike your replies to
me. All that has happened is I have proved if I want I can play your
game better than you, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the
kitchen ;-)
Plaz
sl...@aol.com (SLK03) wrote:
> >So, if I insist over and over that 2+2=5, and you say 2+2=4, do we just
> >have a difference of opinion?
>
> no its more like someone from the US pulling out a dollar bill and someone
> from
> Canada doing the same. They are both dollars except when comparing the two
> the
> US dollar bill is worth $1.50. We are both right saying they are dollars yet
> the perception of what a dollar is worth is different.
That metaphor makes no sense. A US dollar and a Canadian dollar are two
distincly different units of currency, with factual, documented values.
Perception and opinion have no role in determining this.
You seem to have difficulty in determining the difference between fact
and opinion, and this misunderstanding only reinforces that impression.
> Declawing is an
> elective
> procedure...if you agree with it, choose it and if you don't agree with it,
> don't choose it. It's just that simple. Our perceptions of the procedure are
> different but we are both right in the decisions we make for our own cats.
Putting a cat down is also a legal, elective procedure. If I put my cat
down for my own convenience, because I was going out of town for a few
weeks and couldn't be bothered to find accommodations, would you think
that was a right decision that I made for my own cat? I think not.
Just because something is legal, routine, or elective, doesn't make it
right.
Slavery was once legal, routine, and elective. Does that mean
slaveowners were right in their decision to own other human beings as
property, and just had a difference of opinion with abolishinists?
JD
"Kiki" <tig...@havoc.gtf.org> wrote in message
news:9goakn$6vh$2...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> SLK03 <sl...@aol.com> elaborated:
> :>on a personal level I find SLK's
> :>opinion of me extremely amusing
> :>and I enjoy goading her into making a
> :>complete ass of herself.
>
> : So you have now admitted that you are a troll and that your purpose is
to flame
> : others? How nice.
>
> At least she admits it *peer*.
>
> Tigress
I have a question... being fairly new to usenet... if people are goading a
troll, is it really trolling? Or is it just giving the troll more of what
they asked for than what they really wanted? :)
Jen
ver...@usa.net
Interesting question. Basically the question with SLK03 is if she:
a. Really thinks declawing is okay,
b. Doesn't care - just likes to piss off people and see the results,
c. None of the above.
There's really no telling - it's a jungle out there in Usenet land. But
generally, if nobody posts answers to trolls, they go away.
V.
s.holland2
news:DbPX6.23168$C7.36...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
>
> I have a question... being fairly new to usenet... if people are
goading a
> troll, is it really trolling? Or is it just giving the troll more of
what
> they asked for than what they really wanted? :)
>
> Jen
>
>
SLK03
>distincly different units of currency, with factual, documented values.
>Perception and opinion have no role in determining this.
They are both dollars and that is a fact. Perception doesn't change that
fact...only the interpretation of it.
>Putting a cat down is also a legal, elective procedure.
it is a last resort....it is not an elective procedure.
> If I put my cat
>down for my own convenience, because I was going out of town for a few
>weeks and couldn't be bothered to find accommodations, would you think
>that was a right decision that I made for my own cat?
of course not but since it is your cat it would not be my decision to make nor
would I have a right to interfere in your decision.
>Just because something is legal, routine, or elective, doesn't make it
>right.
declawing is right for me and my cats, it may not be right for you and yours.
If you agree with it choose it, if you don't agree with it than don't choose
it. To each his own.