Kidney Failure-Common?
Gene
it really that common and is there anything you can do to prevent it
before it happens? I use purified water to keep those extra chemicals
out. Anything else?
Another thing. You may think this is crazy, but my roommate was
speculating about the fact that since cats do hunt mice as regularly as
they can (little predators), could they become infected with Hanta
virus, which is known to cause kidney failure?
Gene
no CATNIP e-mail
blkc...@home.com
older cats. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I know that as
cats/dogs get older, kidneys will give out...my cat was diagnosed with
kidney disease 4-5 years ago and, fortunately, at almost age 19 he's
still going pretty strong. My cat has never hunted mice, never ate one,
so I'm not sure about that theory.
Sue (w/ Bogart and Scooter)
Gene Allen
killer of older cats who die of natural causes. Hyperthyroidism is
usually cited as number two. But these two are close. Many cases of
hyperthyroidism go undetected, and curing the HT often unmasks other
hidden problems. The most common of those being chronic renal failure.
The reason for that is that HT increases the heart rate and by that
increases the blood flow. That increase in blood flow causes the blood
tests to show normal kidney function when in fact they are starting to
fail. There is a small debate of whether to let the HT be "a little
high" to help the kidneys do better. That is a false assistance and
could be dangerous since the HT actually causes the cat's metabolism
to be faster and in effect he "ages" faster.
As for kidney failure; there is no way to keep it from happening but
there is much debate on ways to keep it from happening sooner. Nothing
has been proven however but it certainly doesn't hurt to use distilled
water, a lower protein diet for older cats, and other such things.
Other fairly common problems with older cats include:
Gum disease: If the gums become infected that infection can spread
rapidly throughout the body and cause problems; such as liver disease,
kidney disease, the infection can even go to the brain.
Cardiomyopathy: The walls of the heart chambers become thicker and the
heart has to work harder to pump. Eventually the thick walls cannot
flex and pumping becomes impossible.
Hypertension: High blood pressure; can lead to kidney failure,
detached retinas, and other problems.
There are others of course and blindness, loss of hearing, and loss of
balance that comes with old age aren't necessarily killers but can be
dangerous for cats that go outside. Many, if not most, times your cat
can become blind or deaf and you won't know it. They are wonderful
adapters.
Not trying to scare anyone or make a cat's senior years seem so
terrible. Remember that all of these things happen to humans too. With
cats & dogs as well as humans, regular checkups and treatment can
allow quality life to continue for a very long time.
Not a vet; just a guy with a lot of animals,
Gene Allen
al
the vet said: stay away from Purina. Use
Science Diet.
Which we did. No problem ever since. (6 yrs).
No. I don't work for any of them.
Al.
In article <38D6EF2F...@mindspring.com>, Gene
<justCAT...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>It seems there have been a lot of kidney failure threads
recently. Is
>it really that common and is there anything you can do to
prevent it
>before it happens? I use purified water to keep those extra
chemicals
>out. Anything else?
>
> <snip>
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Phil P.
Gene <justCAT...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38D6EF2F...@mindspring.com...
> It seems there have been a lot of kidney failure threads recently. Is
> it really that common and is there anything you can do to prevent it
> before it happens?
The reason why you hear so much about CRF, is because cats are living longer
than the did a few years ago. Diseases like CRF, HCM, Hyperthyroidism,
cancer are all diseases mostly from a result of aging. A few years ago,
cats just didn't live enough to develop them. Better foods (some are
terrible), more cats kept indoors, effective and wider use of vaccines -
(and those protective antibodies being passed on to newborn kittens from
their vaccinated moms), better medical care & HUGE advancements in
veterinary medicine - are all helping cats to live longer - consequently,
developing diseases secondary to aging. ...just like us.
One theory for why cats reproduce like coathangers in the closet at night
and like cockroaches is because they weren't "designed" to live long -
species preservation. Kinda makes sense: cats in the wild generally don't
live more than a few years. Nature has a way of regulating things somehow
;). Ever wonder why most kittens are generally born in the spring "Kitten
Season"? --so they have time to grow and develop strength to survive the
winter. Sounds good to me!
When I was a kid volunteering in the local ASPCA in the '50's, an *old* cat
was 6-8 years old - a 10 year old cat was a relic! CRF, HCM, cancer, were
unheard of in those days. If there's no underlying cause (e.g.,
nephrotoxins, polycystic kidney disease, nephroliths, chronic urinary
obstruction, drugs, lymphoma, FIP and, possibly, diabetes mellitus.) of the
renal disease, its called "idiopathic chronic
tubulointerstitial nephritis", simply, degeneration secondary to aging.
Contrary to tons of misinformation, phosphorus is *not* a cause of renal
failure - it is a *result* of renal failure. Phosphorus is an *essential*
element in the feline diet - its a major component of the mineral phase of
bone and is involved in almost all metabolic processes. It also plays an
important role in cell metabolism. Most of the phosphorus in the diet is
found in the protein component. That's where the concept of restricting
protein in CRF cats' diets came from - the only way to restrict phosphorus,
is by restricting protein - but cats are adapted to protein- fat-rich, and
carbohydrate-poor diets - they don't need carbs in their diet because their
systems can manufacture enough sugars from protein. In CRF, the kidneys
don't get rid of enough phosphorus as well as other waste, that's the
reason for restricting phos. intake. Also, urea is a by-product of protein
catabolism - again, to restrict urea production, protein must be
restricted - but cats need protein - cats also use protein as a caloric
source.. Actually, renal cats may need **more** protein because they're
constantly losing protein in their urine. See the Catch-22?
The only way to slow the progression of CRF is to reduce, sodium, phosphorus
and urea in the blood. Most of the Phos. is contained in the protein
component of the diet and urea is a "by-product" of protein catabolism. In
CRF, the kidneys don't remove enough urea from the blood - leading to toxic
buildup - azotemia (uremia). Urea itself is relatively non-toxic but its
always accompanied by toxins. Urea and phos. can be reduced by increasing
the *quality" of protein, which safely allows a reduction in the quantity of
protein. By "quality of protein", I mean the percentage of essential amino
acids contained in the protein.
The difference between essential and non-essential amino acids is the body
cannot produce essential AAs and therefore must be supplied by the diet,
non-essential aa's are produced by the body and don't need to be supplied.
Most protein sources contain both, essential and non-essential AAs. By
choosing a protein source that has a higher % of essential AAs, you can feed
a lesser *quantity* of protein - by eliminating the non-essential aa's that
the body can produce - "concentrated protein" - if you take my meaning.
Non-essential amino acids in the diet is just a surplus which only gets
converted into excess urea leading to azotemia. Am I making sense? So, the
*quality* of the protein is more important than the *quantity*. The higher
% of ess.aa's the less quantity of protein is needed to fulfill the cat's
protein needs, and the less urea will be produced by reducing the intake of
non-essential aa's that the cat doesn't need, anyway, because his body can
produce them. (I'm getting dizzy)
Also, cats use a % of protein as source of calories. Increasing fat
provides a non-protein source of calories. - producing less urea as a result
of less protein catabolism.
Another critical misconception is many people think "Senior", Light", "Less
Active" diets are the same as renal diets - they're *NOT*. Renal diets are
specially formulated with reduced, sodium, phosphorus, protein and increased
fat and other nutrients.
I use purified water to keep those extra chemicals
> out. Anything else?
Purified water *may* be beneficial in reducing urinary tract problems, such
as certain types of crystals - but that would depend on the chemical
composition of your local water. Bottled water can't hurt, that's for sure!
>
> Another thing. You may think this is crazy, but my roommate was
> speculating about the fact that since cats do hunt mice as regularly as
> they can (little predators), could they become infected with Hanta
> virus, which is known to cause kidney failure?
Not in cats, I don't think. Its a Bunyaviridae (hey Bugs, any relation?);
its causes hemorrhagic fever and hantavirus pulmonary syndrome in people,
sheep and cattle and is zoonotic The natural reservoir is rodents but I've
never heard of a cat developing renal failure from the Hantavirus - or
transmitting the infection to people. Hantavius pulmonary syndrome is fatal
in humans. Another research project - just what I needed. Thanks, Gene....
and I thought we were friends....;)
Phil.
"With the qualities of cleanliness, discretion, affection, patience,
dignity, and courage that cats have, how many of us,
I ask you, would be capable of being cats?' --Fernand Mery
Feline Healthcare & More: http://maxshouse.com
>
> Gene
> no CATNIP e-mail
>
Phil P.
Gene Allen <geneREM...@key-net.net> wrote in message
news:38d7727...@news.key-net.net...
> Sue is correct. Most sources cite kidney failure as the number one
> killer of older cats who die of natural causes. Hyperthyroidism is
> usually cited as number two. But these two are close. Many cases of
> hyperthyroidism go undetected, and curing the HT often unmasks other
> hidden problems. The most common of those being chronic renal failure.
> The reason for that is that HT increases the heart rate and by that
> increases the blood flow. That increase in blood flow causes the blood
> tests to show normal kidney function when in fact they are starting to
> fail. There is a small debate of whether to let the HT be "a little
> high" to help the kidneys do better. That is a false assistance and
> could be dangerous since the HT actually causes the cat's metabolism
> to be faster and in effect he "ages" faster.
Hyperthyroidism, in many renal cats, is what keeps them going! Treating the
hyperthyroidism, hastens kidney failure. Years ago, I had a hyperthyroid,
renal cat. As thyroid function improved, uremia increased. Tapering
anti-thyroid meds and eventually discontinued them altogether, *improved*
kidney function. CRF was diagnosed when he was 15 - manipulating his
hyperthyroidism kept him comfortably alive until he was 22! Any med or
treatment, other than a cure, is "false assistance". False, fake,
make-believe, hocus-pocus - who cares??? It improves kidney function and
the cat lives longer. ;)
Kidney failure will kill a cat faster than hyperthyroidism, in most cases.
The object is to try to strike a balance somewhere in the middle. Take
hyperthyroidism out of the danger zone while allowing it to improve kidney
function. Tricky, but certainly possible. Including T4 with the chem
screen makes the "juggling" a little easier. This is in *no* *way* meant to
imply or suggest that hyperthyroidism should be allowed to go unchecked in
renal cats - only to get the most benefit from a bad situation.
>
> As for kidney failure; there is no way to keep it from happening but
> there is much debate on ways to keep it from happening sooner. Nothing
> has been proven however but it certainly doesn't hurt to use distilled
> water, a lower protein diet for older cats, and other such things.
Bottled water may help reduce the chances of urinary tract problems,
depending on the content of minerals in the local water supply. Can't hurt,
that's for sure!
There's some debate about lower protein. It may not be "lower" protein
that's beneficial, but a higher quality of protein - one that produces less
by-products which causes uremia. The original concept of low protein came
from studies done with rats. The most important elements to reduce are
phosphorus, sodium and most important, urea - to restrict phosphorus you
must restrict protein because most
of the phosphorus is contained in the protein component; urea is a
by-product of protein catabolism, reducing protein will reduce both,
phosphorus and urea - but cats have a
high protein requirement. Renal cats may need *more* protein because
they're constantly loosing protein in their urine. Increasing the quality
of the protein is more important than reducing the quantity. A higher
quality of protein (higher % of essential amino acids) will automatically
reduce the need for a high quantity - "concentrated protein" so to speak -
resulting in less urea production and resulting azotemia
>
> Other fairly common problems with older cats include:
> Gum disease: If the gums become infected that infection can spread
> rapidly throughout the body and cause problems; such as liver disease,
> kidney disease, the infection can even go to the brain.
> Cardiomyopathy: The walls of the heart chambers become thicker and the
> heart has to work harder to pump. Eventually the thick walls cannot
> flex and pumping becomes impossible.
Hyperthyroidism is suspected of being a cause of HCM, but HCM, in many
cases, is easier to manage than CRF if caught early enough.
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy is not as much of a potential risk from dental
disease as is bacterial endocarditis. The gum tissues have an extensive
blood supply, and all the bacteria involved in periodontal infections easily
enter the blood stream, and as all blood eventually passes through the
heart, bacteria can become deposited on the valves and lining tissues
of the heart and begin an infection there. Valves become damaged and begin
to leak blood and ultimately congestive heart failure can result. Bacteria
from dental disease can also be deposited in any organ where the blood
flows - which is all of them! and cause infections to develop. A form of
sepsis - which could easily become severe. Not a
common problem in cats, but nevertheless, a very real potential danger that
can easily be avoided by simple dental hygiene and immediate attention to
any form of dental disease.
Excellent foresight!
> Hypertension: High blood pressure; can lead to kidney failure,
> detached retinas, and other problems.
> There are others of course and blindness, loss of hearing, and loss of
> balance that comes with old age aren't necessarily killers but can be
> dangerous for cats that go outside. Many, if not most, times your cat
> can become blind or deaf and you won't know it. They are wonderful
> adapters.
>
> Not trying to scare anyone or make a cat's senior years seem so
> terrible. Remember that all of these things happen to humans too. With
> cats & dogs as well as humans, regular checkups and treatment can
> allow quality life to continue for a very long time.
I get a fair amount of criticism as being "extreme" because I firmly believe
in semi-annual or even quarterly exams for cats over 10. Since I have to
take one in (14 y/o) every quarter, I bring all four! What the hell! I'm
going that way anyway! Serves two purposes - 1. they all get checked. 2. no
home-from-the-vet fights because one has new scents! My vet charges me for
one and a half office visits instead of 4, and regular price for 1 CBC/chem
screen/complete urinalysis (SpGr, multistix, sed) and just his lab costs for
the
other three. "Things" can sneak up quickly in older cats. So, maybe I am
paranoid about my cats; but you know what they say about paranoia: "You only
have to be right *once* to make it all worthwhile". ;)
>
> Not a vet; just a guy
A very wise guy! (meaning having wisdom - not a "wiseguy"), with a lot of
foresight!
>with a lot of animals,
It shows!
> Gene Allen
Phil.
"Cat people are different, to the extent that they
generally are not conformists.
How could the be, with a cat running their lives?"
--Louis Camuti
Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com
>
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:34:51 GMT, blkc...@home.com wrote:
>
> >Gene, I've read that kidney failure is the number one cause of death in
> >older cats. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I know that as
> >cats/dogs get older, kidneys will give out...my cat was diagnosed with
> >kidney disease 4-5 years ago and, fortunately, at almost age 19 he's
> >still going pretty strong. My cat has never hunted mice, never ate one,
> >so I'm not sure about that theory.
> >
> >Sue (w/ Bogart and Scooter)
> >
> >Gene wrote:
> >>
> >> It seems there have been a lot of kidney failure threads recently. Is
> >> it really that common and is there anything you can do to prevent it
> >> before it happens? I use purified water to keep those extra chemicals
> >> out. Anything else?
> >>
> >> Another thing. You may think this is crazy, but my roommate was
> >> speculating about the fact that since cats do hunt mice as regularly as
> >> they can (little predators), could they become infected with Hanta
> >> virus, which is known to cause kidney failure?
> >>
> >> Gene
> >> no CATNIP e-mail
>
Jonathan Rosenberg
news:8b98gi$jhq$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Hyperthyroidism, in many renal cats, is what keeps them going! Treating
the
> hyperthyroidism, hastens kidney failure . . .
Phil (or anyone else),
Can you point me at an authoritative source confirming this relationship? I
was talking with a vet the other day who said she had never heard of tnis
relationship. I'd like to take her some info next week when I see her
again.
--
JR
blkc...@home.com
there which is high in quality protein and low in phosphorous?
Sue
(w/ Bogart & Scooter)
p.s. You and Gene are fonts of knowledge! I'm impressed!
Gene Allen
wrote:
>> fail. There is a small debate of whether to let the HT be "a little
>> high" to help the kidneys do better. That is a false assistance and
>> could be dangerous since the HT actually causes the cat's metabolism
>> to be faster and in effect he "ages" faster.
>
>Hyperthyroidism, in many renal cats, is what keeps them going! Treating the
>hyperthyroidism, hastens kidney failure. Years ago, I had a hyperthyroid,
>renal cat. As thyroid function improved, uremia increased. Tapering
>anti-thyroid meds and eventually discontinued them altogether, *improved*
>kidney function. CRF was diagnosed when he was 15 - manipulating his
>hyperthyroidism kept him comfortably alive until he was 22! Any med or
>treatment, other than a cure, is "false assistance". False, fake,
>make-believe, hocus-pocus - who cares??? It improves kidney function and
>the cat lives longer. ;)
>Kidney failure will kill a cat faster than hyperthyroidism, in most cases.
>The object is to try to strike a balance somewhere in the middle. Take
>hyperthyroidism out of the danger zone while allowing it to improve kidney
>function. Tricky, but certainly possible. Including T4 with the chem
>screen makes the "juggling" a little easier. This is in *no* *way* meant to
>imply or suggest that hyperthyroidism should be allowed to go unchecked in
>renal cats - only to get the most benefit from a bad situation.
>
Very well said. I should have elaborated on that. A good relationship
with a determined vet and one could use this "juggling" to help the
kidneys. Unfortunately, as we see in this group, there are vets that
just won't go to that much trouble. I wonder why.
>
>Bottled water may help reduce the chances of urinary tract problems,
>depending on the content of minerals in the local water supply. Can't hurt,
>that's for sure!
>
When I had my third CRF animal in a four year period, two vets asked
me about my water. Strangely enough my oldest cat, the last one to
have CRF, would not drink bottled water. He prefered tap water and
would only drink it from a bucket. I think it was easier on his neck
not to have to bend over to drink.
>
>There's some debate about lower protein. It may not be "lower" protein
>that's beneficial, but a higher quality of protein - one that produces less
>by-products which causes uremia. The original concept of low protein came
>from studies done with rats. The most important elements to reduce are
>phosphorus, sodium and most important, urea -
>
Very true. In St. Johns, FL there is a husband & wife vet team, Dr.
Mark and Dr. Jinny. They are very well respected and travel around the
world giving lectures to other vets. In their private practice they've
taken patients home with them to sleep with them in their bed to keep
an eye on them. They don't use a reduced protein diet at all for CRF
cats. They DO use foods with quality protein. They have a CRF cat of
their own. I forget how old he is. I'm in PA and they are in FL.
>
>Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy is not as much of a potential risk from dental
>disease as is bacterial endocarditis. The gum tissues have an extensive
>blood supply, and all the bacteria involved in periodontal infections easily
>enter the blood stream, and as all blood eventually passes through the
>heart, bacteria can become deposited on the valves and lining tissues
>of the heart and begin an infection there. Valves become damaged and begin
>to leak blood and ultimately congestive heart failure can result. Bacteria
>from dental disease can also be deposited in any organ where the blood
>flows - which is all of them! and cause infections to develop. A form of
>sepsis - which could easily become severe. Not a
>common problem in cats, but nevertheless, a very real potential danger that
>can easily be avoided by simple dental hygiene and immediate attention to
>any form of dental disease.
>
>Excellent foresight!
>
Better said than the way I did. Now we all know another reason why our
mom's made sure we brushed. :-)
>
>I get a fair amount of criticism as being "extreme" because I firmly believe
>in semi-annual or even quarterly exams for cats over 10. Since I have to
>take one in (14 y/o) every quarter, I bring all four! What the hell! I'm
>going that way anyway! Serves two purposes - 1. they all get checked. 2. no
>home-from-the-vet fights because one has new scents! My vet charges me for
>one and a half office visits instead of 4, and regular price for 1 CBC/chem
>screen/complete urinalysis (SpGr, multistix, sed) and just his lab costs for
>the
>other three. "Things" can sneak up quickly in older cats. So, maybe I am
>paranoid about my cats; but you know what they say about paranoia: "You only
>have to be right *once* to make it all worthwhile". ;)
>
Absolutely! In my opinion you are not extreme. You are responsible.
And let's face it the vets learn a lot from responsible pet people who
are willing to be so "extreme". I think that sometimes the reason they
give the "nothing we can do" answers is that they have so many clients
that will only go so far. The vets get so used to that they don't
always think to give us all the options.
>>
>> Not a vet; just a guy
>
>A very wise guy! (meaning having wisdom - not a "wiseguy"), with a lot of
>foresight!
>
>>with a lot of animals,
>
>It shows!
>
Thank you. It's people like you who have the knowledge and make it
available that help people like me. Thanks for that too.
Gene Allen
Phil P.
Jonathan Rosenberg <jr...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:8b9h3s$ico$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> the
>
> Phil (or anyone else),
>
> Can you point me at an authoritative source confirming this relationship?
I'm not an authoritative source, and I generally don't like people pointing
at me, but I'll make an exception in your case ;) I've been through it,
Jonathan, its true. But I'll try to locate documentation for you.
I
> was talking with a vet the other day who said she had never heard of tnis
> relationship.
I'm not surprised. Some vets make a prognosis for CRF before
rehydration.... If you want an idea of how current she is, ask her often
cats should be vaccinated for FVRCP... If she says annually...find a new
vet.
I'd like to take her some info next week when I see her
> again.
I should have something for you before then. I'm used to doing homework for
some vets.
Phil.
--
"Cats have no masters, only friends"
Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com
>
> --
> JR
>
>
pekka
hypothyroid myself I can attest that it SLOWS down (high TSH)
metabolic functions. Basic textboox on endocrinology will tell
you the same. Supporting the cat via T3/T4 therapy will elevate
the basal temperature and metabolic response. Thus, cats often
lose some weight once their free-T3 and T4 are brought within
normal range.
In article <38d7727...@news.key-net.net>, Gene
Allen<geneREM...@key-net.net> wrote:
>.. Hyperthyroidism is ...usually cited as number two.
>could be dangerous since the HT actually causes the cat's
metabolism to be faster and in effect he "ages" faster.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
SPAM@ouvip.com Helen
hyperT, not hypo. Hypothyroid is virtually unheard of in cats (unless caused
by treatment for hyperT). My mother has hypo T and it slows everything down,
hyperT speeds it up.
Helen
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.
pekka <ppekkaN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:02e24140...@usw-ex0101-006.remarq.com...
lkm...@my-deja.com
> Another thing. You may think this is crazy, but my roommate was
> speculating about the fact that since cats do hunt mice as regularly
as
> they can (little predators), could they become infected with Hanta
> virus, which is known to cause kidney failure?
>
that there really isn't anything I can contribute except to mention
that undiagnosed diabetes would be a contributing factor in renal
failure in cats just as it is in humans...
With respect to the Hanta virus question, most viruses (to varying
degrees) are reasonably host-specific. So, a particular virus might,
for example, infect all rodents _or_ it might only infect a subclass of
rodents depending on how closely related the required proteins and
receptors in the host are among the various species. Some viruses are
species specific, some are genus-specific, and a few are even
more "promiscuous" than that (flu virus for example). So, unless the
Hanta virus that infects mice is able to establish an infection in
cats, you are unlikely to have anything to worry about that. I don't
have my virology references handy, so I can't tell you more than that.
Laura (not an expert, just a biochemist)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Max's House
pekka <ppekkaN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:02e24140...@usw-ex0101-006.remarq.com...
> Sorry - it appears you have your facts backwards. Being
> hypothyroid myself I can attest that it SLOWS down (high TSH)
> metabolic functions.
Aparently, you've mistaken hyp_er_thyroidism for hyp_o_thyroidism. (I hope
like hell your endocrinologist hasn't, also) They're basically the
same...both involve the thyroid - just going in at different speeds - like
me, before and after my morning coffee ;)
Phil.
"If the "blackbox" flight recorder is never damaged during a plane
crash, why isn't the whole damn airplane made out of that stuff?"
--Georg
e Carlin
Feline Healthcare & More: http://maxshouse.com
Basic textboox on endocrinology will tell
> you the same. Supporting the cat via T3/T4 therapy will elevate
> the basal temperature and metabolic response. Thus, cats often
> lose some weight once their free-T3 and T4 are brought within
> normal range.
>
> In article <38d7727...@news.key-net.net>, Gene
> Allen<geneREM...@key-net.net> wrote:
>
> >.. Hyperthyroidism is ...usually cited as number two.
>
> >could be dangerous since the HT actually causes the cat's
> metabolism to be faster and in effect he "ages" faster.
>
>
>