Declawing
Elizabeth
nothing constructive to offer, don't bother to post if you are just going to
yell at me. I am looking for observations from those who have or had
declawed cats.
My cats are 8, 7, 2 and one unknown (at least 7). I am considering getting
them all declawed.
Has anyone had older cats declawed? How do they behave after - immediately
and long term?
Thanks in advance.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Kathy Fanning
amputation on each toe. There are long-ranging emotional and physical effects.
"The declawed cat is, in reality, a clubfooted animal." Apparently it affects
how the cat walks, shifting the weight to the back of the pads compared to the
normal front. Their balance is affected, and because they walk differently than
normal, their entire body's musculature is eventually affected. They are 75%
defenseless, which, since they are so driven by their instincts, causes them
great stress even if they are never in a situation where they really need to
defend themselves. Since they do normally defend themselves first with their
claws, once they are clawless they need to rely on their teeth instead and
usually do so more forcefully since they are stressed and feel defenseless.
I'd never do it.....
Kathy
RFerrie
wrote:
>I do not want to start a riot with this post, so please if you've got
>nothing constructive to offer, don't bother to post if you are just going to
>yell at me. I am looking for observations from those who have or had
>declawed cats.
>
>My cats are 8, 7, 2 and one unknown (at least 7). I am considering getting
>them all declawed.
>
>Has anyone had older cats declawed? How do they behave after - immediately
>and long term?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>--
>Elizabeth
>(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
First off - my cats are declawed, done at the same time as
spay/neutering.
Now: Personally, I'm not crazy about adult declawing, because it's
harder on them - they have to readjust, there's greater risk from
anaesthetic, it's "another" surgery, and it's believed that older cats
have longer recovery times and greater risk of complications.
But to be honest, I do know a few "adult declawees", and without
exception, they've ended up fine. A friend moved from a farm to a
beautiful suburban home, and wanted to declaw them (7 cats, ranging
from about 3 to about 10) and make them indoor-only (I also don't like
declawing cats that will go outdoors, and I *really* don't like rear
declawing). They were all successfully declawed, recovered, and have
had no ill-effects at all. They do go outside (sigh), and catch birds.
All of them were tender for a while - I'm sure you can understand. One
of them chewed off the surgical glue and had to be rushed to the vet
to staunch the bleeding. An Elizabethan collar prevented a
reoccurrance.
I'm not going to tell you what you should or should not do, but I will
offer a couple of suggestions. First, have you tried persuading them
to scratch on designated posts? Have you tried regular nail clipping?
Have you considered "soft paws"? You'll probably feel better if you
try some of these before going through with the surgery, and they
might work, anyway.
If you do decide to do the surgery, *please* have blood tests done, at
least on the older 3. And ask your vet about the safer (although more
expensive) anaesthetic. I'd suggest that you take a couple of days off
work/school to keep a close eye on them after the surgery. It *is* a
significant surgical procedure, and there *are* risks. Take as few
chances as possible.
Good luck!
Renee
Warning: Keep out of reach of children. They're really, really annoying.
C&M Towle
As you probably know, I am adamantly against digital amputations
and do not consider the surgery an option ever. I have come to
that conclusion by reading a fair amount on the subject and by
speaking to several vets. The consensus generally is that if the
surgery is at all considered, it should be done at a very young
age (around 6 months). There is general agreement that cats
older than that might have a much harder time adapting and have
behavioural problems such as biting. Speaking to vet techs who
tend to the kitties after surgery, all have said they hate
seeing them after they wake up which was not the case after
neutering for example. The majority of vets I spoke to who do
the surgery (these were all recommended and well-established
clinics) have indicated that they dislike doing it. One has to
wonder, if the surgery is so distasteful, why they still do it -
but that is a different issue.
Have you read much on the subject?
It is usually a last resort, so may I ask why and why all four
cats? I'm not yelling, just hoping I can help and wondering what
made you get to this point.
I hope you reconsider - there really are tons of workable and
painless options.
Monica
Elizabeth wrote in message
<6ont6k$8sk$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
do...@my-dejanews.com
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> I do not want to start a riot with this post, so please if you've got
> nothing constructive to offer, don't bother to post if you are just going to
> yell at me. I am looking for observations from those who have or had
> declawed cats.
>
> My cats are 8, 7, 2 and one unknown (at least 7). I am considering getting
> them all declawed.
>
> Has anyone had older cats declawed? How do they behave after - immediately
> and long term?
Elizabeth,
May we ask why you are considering this now? If we knew what the problems
are, perhaps we could offer you some solutions that are less drastic and
less expensive. One thing you could try are
Softpaws-claw covers for the kitties that you glue on every so often.
Lots of people on this newsgroup have great ideas for training cats to
scratching posts, too, so why don't you explore some of those?
Sorry, I don't have any
experience with declawed cats-I don't believe in doing it, so I can't
tell you if there will be behavioral problems or not. But why risk it-
especially if there may be cheaper and less final solutions to the problems?
Marca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
GeyerK
effects on cats: I never had cats until my fiancee moved in with his two -
they've been declawed since before he got them,and they are extremely sweet,
nice and well adjusted. of course, they are indoor cats, so they don't ever
have to defend themselves. We may be gettiung a kitten and haven't addressed
the declawing issue, but all of my lifelong kitten loving friends would never
do it and urge us not to. I'd also be interested to hear from the group on the
pros and cons.
C&M Towle
You can search the "Deja News" web site for archived Newsgroup
postings. If you search under the subject "Declawing", you'll
get a lot of info. There is a lot of flaming there; ignore it,
and you will find a lot of good information which will give you
a better idea re the pros and cons and possible consequences.
Hope this helps,
Monica
GeyerK wrote in message
<199807180007...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Becky
a year old. They were declawed the same time they were spayed. The first
couple of days you have to watch them and make sure they don't use kitty
litter. You'll need to use shredded newspaper instead. My cats never and
still don't have ANY problems with being declawed. They don't walk, run,
jump, play differently than other cats. I know alot of people are
against declawing but I think that there would be alot more cats being
put to sleep if people didn't have a choice. I for one would have never
gotten cats if I couldn't have them declawed because they clawed
everything...even the wallpaper. I don't know as far as older cats go, I
would think it would be much more traumatic since they've had their
claws all this time. But the younger cats, I don't see any reason not to
if that's what you need to do.
Becky
V & H SIMMONS
"C&M Towle" <cto...@istar.ca> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>You can search the "Deja News" web site for archived Newsgroup
>postings. If you search under the subject "Declawing", you'll
>get a lot of info. There is a lot of flaming there; ignore it,
>and you will find a lot of good information which will give you
>a better idea re the pros and cons and possible consequences.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Monica
>
>
Also try looking at...
http://www.lisaviolet.com/declaw.html
Another thing to think about...
There are *lots* of places in the world where declawing is not practised. It is either actually
illegal, or so abhorred, it isn't done - unless for medical reasons.
People in these places love their furniture and homes just as much as people in places where
declawing is performed - so *please* ask yourself if declawing is necessary at all. There are LOTS
of humane alternatives.
Regards, Helen S
Derek Ralston
>Paraphrasing from "The New Natural Cat": declawing is like performing an
>amputation on each toe. There are long-ranging emotional and physical effects.
I guess they took the MMPI test and found them to have emotional
problems? Give me a break. Do not push your human emotions upon the
animal. There is no proof of that statement.
>"The declawed cat is, in reality, a clubfooted animal." Apparently it affects
>how the cat walks, shifting the weight to the back of the pads compared to the
>normal front.
Notice the use of the word "apparently". Apparent to whom? It has
never been apparent to myself, or my vets. In fact, my last declawed
cat lived to 22 years of age and amazed the vet at the wonderful
condition of her joints, including her hips.
>Their balance is affected, and because they walk differently than
>normal, their entire body's musculature is eventually affected. They are 75%
>defenseless, which, since they are so driven by their instincts, causes them
>great stress even if they are never in a situation where they really need to
>defend themselves. Since they do normally defend themselves first with their
>claws, once they are clawless they need to rely on their teeth instead and
>usually do so more forcefully since they are stressed and feel defenseless.
I hate to tell you, but none of my cats have actually been
defenseless. Since they actively defended themselves, I can only
assume that they never "felt" defenseless. They continue to beat the
snot out of local dogs (including some really big ones) and always
win! This is done without the use of teeth. They also still climb
trees, door casings, stairs - you name it.
>I'd never do it.....
> Kathy
If you don't feel right in doing it, I would support your decision not
to declaw. I have a real problem with those who use anecdotal evidence
and personal feelings to demonize those who choose to declaw. It works
very well for me, and my cats are very content and live long and happy
lives. They exhibit none of the horrid problems that are claimed by
many of the "don't declaw" camp.
If you don't wnt to declaw - don't. If you do want to declaw - get a
vet that has an excellent track record in declawing.
Derek Ralston
>
>There are *lots* of places in the world where declawing is not practised. It is either actually
>illegal, or so abhorred, it isn't done - unless for medical reasons.
Name, oh let's say, half a dozen...
>People in these places love their furniture and homes just as much as people in places where
>declawing is performed - so *please* ask yourself if declawing is necessary at all. There are LOTS
>of humane alternatives.
People in other parts of the world also don't kill rats that cause
destruction of their own food. Just because there is someplace that
may not do something, that is no reason to follow their lead.
V & H SIMMONS
d...@jps.net (Derek Ralston) wrote:
>
>>
>>There are *lots* of places in the world where declawing is not practised. It is either actually
>>illegal, or so abhorred, it isn't done - unless for medical reasons.
>
>Name, oh let's say, half a dozen...
England
Scotland
Ireland
Wales
France
Netherlands
Germany
Austria
Australia
New Zealand
Norway
To name a few...
>
>>People in these places love their furniture and homes just as much as people in places where
>>declawing is performed - so *please* ask yourself if declawing is necessary at all. There are
LOTS
>>of humane alternatives.
>
>People in other parts of the world also don't kill rats that cause
>destruction of their own food. Just because there is someplace that
>may not do something, that is no reason to follow their lead.
>
Oops, forgot to brush the rats off the sofa before sitting on it! Silly me!
Dammit Rat! get off the food counter will ya!
Regards, Helen S
Sue
<6ont6k$8sk$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
> I do not want to start a riot with this post, so please if you've got
> nothing constructive to offer, don't bother to post if you are just going
to
> yell at me. I am looking for observations from those who have or had
> declawed cats.
>
> My cats are 8, 7, 2 and one unknown (at least 7). I am considering
getting
> them all declawed.
>
> Has anyone had older cats declawed? How do they behave after -
immediately
> and long term?
>
> --
> Elizabeth
> (Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
>
Elizabeth:
I have four cats: one is 5y.o., adopted him declawed 2 years ago. Two I
adopted as kittens and had them declawed during their alterations. The
kitten is 10 mos. old and I opted to not have her declawed. The cats are
indoor cats and I immediately jumped into having them declawed because
1)they're indoor cats; 2) they *might* shred the furniture and the speakers
as past indoor/outdoor cat had done. I really didn't give them a chance to
*prove* themselves, and jumped right into it. The three cats who are
declawed have not had any long-term ill effects from the declawing. The
only time it really would have really been helpful for one of my cats was
during a very interesting situation in which the cat got on a narrowly
slanting side of the roof, darted up to the top, only to have the other
side have a very steep slant down to the first floor. I found her behind a
bush on the other side of the house after she slid all the way down, and
had bloodied her front "stumps" and had shredded her hind claws and pads
after trying to catch onto something. This was so traumatic for her, and
for me, that I pledged that I would NEVER declaw again. Another indoor cat
that died a few years ago from FIP (loved him so much) was declawed at a
Companion Pet Clinic near my home. I didn't realize that they assembly line
these types of procedures, and because of it, they did a poor job clipping
some of his joints and he had bone spurs coming through the ends where his
sutures were. This was very painful, and thus would be considered a
long-term ill effect. The kitten we have now, who is not declawed, is not a
problem. She uses a scratching post, occasionally a rug, and we keep her
nails trimmed when they get so curvacious (sp?) that they start to catch on
loosely woven or knit fabric and snag things. When she was a kitten, we
tried soft paws. Because she was growing so rapidly, the claws would
outgrow the tips before they fell off, and the backs of them would get
caught on things. As adult cats, you might have better luck, but some cats
really hate having their feet played with, and this does take some time to
do. SO, if you do decide to declaw, please make sure that you have tried
the scratching post first, taking them to it and introducing them to it,
going through the scratching motion. Try the soft paws. And really, there
is no reason at all to ever have back claws removed. I do hope you exhaust
your options, and best of luck to you.
Sue
Kathy Fanning
about the effects of declawing. I don't believe I demonized anyone in any way or
tried to push my views on anyone; not the person who asked and certainly not you.
Kathy
Cindy Musgrove
these countries.
Some folks who have declawed have been fortunate enough to have cats that
kept a stiff upper lip and go on with life 'apparently' unaffected (to use a
controversial word). Just because their cats did not have problems
afterwards doesn't mean that there isn't any such thing.
CCarnan
HMMMMMMMM GEE LET ME THINK ABOUT THAT ONE!
sick sick sick
I am only observing someones comment on the debate of how other people in other
places who dont declaw "love their furniture" as much as people in places that
do declaw.
i can't believe people are so friggin materialistic.
dont declaw, or i'll yank your fingernails out,
clare and gabs(my cat with claws)
V & H SIMMONS
"Sue " <cat...@no.oregonsbest.spam.com> wrote:
snipped...
>do. SO, if you do decide to declaw, please make sure that you have tried
>the scratching post first, taking them to it and introducing them to it,
>going through the scratching motion. Try the soft paws. And really, there
>is no reason at all to ever have back claws removed. I do hope you exhaust
>your options, and best of luck to you.
>
>Sue
Hi Sue:-)
A note to say that I am very sorry your cat suffered so. Also a "Thank You"
for having the courage to put your cat's story on the NG.
Regards, helen S
V & H SIMMONS
"Cindy Musgrove" <cmus...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Helen, you are priceless! Good info also. We need to take a lesson from
>these countries.
Thank you:-) We could learn a few tips from other places too....
Lord how we need a Freedom of Information Act over here!
Regards, helen S
robert a moeser
> >is not practised.]
>
> England
> Scotland
> Ireland
> Wales
> France
> Netherlands
> Germany
> Austria
> Australia
> New Zealand
> Norway
>
> To name a few...
yeah, but are there any *civilised* places?
-- rob
p.s. :-)
V & H SIMMONS
Good job for the p.s.:-))))))
(or I'd have to get my cats to inflict damage with les claws:-))))
Hugs, of a refined, civilised type, Helen S
yngver
"Cindy Musgrove" <cmus...@mindspring.com> writes:
> Helen, you are priceless! Good info also. We need to take a lesson from
> these countries.
>
> Some folks who have declawed have been fortunate enough to have cats that
> kept a stiff upper lip and go on with life 'apparently' unaffected (to use a
> controversial word). Just because their cats did not have problems
> afterwards doesn't mean that there isn't any such thing.
While I frequently see people post on this ng that their cats are
declawed yet suffer no behavioral problems, that has not been my own
personal observation. Among my friends who have declawed cats, all of
them have exhibited some kind of neuroses. Because of this I sometimes
wonder if behaviors I would attach to the effect of declawing are
attributed to other reasons by many owners. For example, one friend has
a cat that bites anyone who tries to pet her. Indeed the only type of
play the cat engages in with humans is biting hands (if you can call
that play). While I attribute this to the cat having been declawed, my
friend insists that it's because her boyfriend taught the cat "to play
rough." Nevertheless the behavior did not start until after the cat was
declawed.
Another friend had an adult cat declawed and the poor thing had quite a
personality change, I suppose because my friend also owned a big dog.
While the cat had been quite bold prior to declaw, she became timid and
fearful afterwards, and spent most of her time cowering in dark places.
The cat lived to 15 years and remained timid the rest of her life, but
again I think it was partly because the dog somehow knew he could
terrorize her once the cat had no claws.
I am sure that some cats do not exhibit big problems after being
declawed but I have never known any such cats, so that does color my
own thinking. It does seem to me that the cats who were declawed as
young kittens show fewer neuroses later than do older cats.
BTW, I've never owned a declawed cat (and I would not adopt one that
was declawed) yet I've never had shredded furniture either.
-yngver
(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
Elizabeth
could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood, one
rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under and
sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the furniture.
And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
For example, no one has been scratching for weeks and last week, one started
on the loveseat. Then, when cleaning my son's room, I uncovered a spot in
the carpet that hadn't see the light of day for a while, one goes over there
and starts scractching. I start screaming and chasing the cats away. I've
even resorted to spraying them with water.
I don't value my furniture over my cats. I don't want anyone to think I am
that shallow, but there has to be a breaking point and I think I've pretty
much reached it. I've only got a few things in my life that are mine, most
are second hand. I want nice things and I want my cats to behave. They use
their posts everyday, why must they also scratch the rest of the house. Is
it wrong to want nice things and cats too.
I know this message will be answered by others who will just yell at me for
being petty, but I've gotten to the point of regretting ever getting the
cats. I love them dearly, they are like my children. I never wanted to
regret having them. If this is how I've begun to feel, then I should have
the right to look into ways of making them stop this behavior so that I can
love them fully and wholly again. It's either that or I won't want them,
and never get another cat again. This is not the kind of person I want to
be.
My cats are all trained to the scratching posts and use them regularly.
They are treated kindly and held and petted every day, each of them, no
matter how busy I am, they get their "loving". So, they are not neglected
and scratching out of spite. They never go outside, ever, and never will,
so that is not an issue in declawing. I have tried keeping their nails
clipped short and although with a few of the cats it was a struggle, it
wasn't too difficult at first. Unfortunately, it only seemed to increase
their scratching while the nails were growing back. It was a no win
situation, the cats would start scratching worse than before and I would pin
them down and cut the nails. They were getting very stressed from the
constant struggle and avoiding me because of it. I have looked into
SoftPaws and didn't think they would work for us. I have a small child and
worry about those little paws all over the house and my son swallowing and
choking on them. Should this be a concern, anybody out there with a baby
and softpaws. I will look into them again as a result of all the postings.
I have not ever considered taking their rear claws.
I know this post is long and I'm sure there are things I intended to say but
have now forgotten since I am rather upset and crying at the moment. This
is a very stressful situation for me and am really not handling it too well
as I never wanted to do this to my cats, but am now feeling as if I must in
order to restore my sanity, and I'm sure that this comment will also be met
with nasty responses.
Thanks to all for taking the time to respond with their suggestions,
experiences, and so on. All the information is appreciated and will be used
to weigh our options in this difficult decision.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
do...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
Elizabeth
V & H SIMMONS
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>The problem with my kitties is their scratching. If it was just one thing I
>could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood, one
>rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under and
>sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
>absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
>we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the furniture.
>And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
>scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
snipped...
Have you spoken with your vet about trying "Feliway" to reduce the scratching
in inappropriate places?
Regards, Helen S
Tom and Misty Hammett
I really feel for you, and the anguish you are going through in
making a decision. Speaking solely from my own experience, I have had
three cats at different times during my life and all three were
declawed. One came to us that way (we wanted a cat, so mom told us to
pray for one that was "fixed", litter trained, declawed and good
tempered. We did, and soon MawKitty showed up and insisted on being
allowed to join the family! Even though she was declawed, she continued
to climb trees and catch small critters!) Another was a cat I got after
I moved away from home and was living alone in an apartment. MacGyver
never showed any ill effects from being declawed. My parents also have a
declawed cat who has not been bothered by the procedure.
It sounds as if you have tried to deal with the scratching problem
to the best of your abilities. Have your cats declawed, if that is what
you decide, and enjoy their company for a long, long time. I'll keep you
and your cats in my prayers, if that's all right with you.
Misty
lisaviolet
>
> For example, no one has been scratching for weeks and last week, one started
> on the loveseat. Then, when cleaning my son's room, I uncovered a spot in
> the carpet that hadn't see the light of day for a while, one goes over there
> and starts scractching. I
Elizabeth, one of the reasons that cats *scratch* furniture and other
things is to leave their scent. People that have declawed cats remark
that their cats still *scratch* as they did before, when they aren't
scratching at all, they are leaving their *calling card*.
Try using an enzyme cleaner in those areas. And get something from your
vet called Feliway (if not available at your vet's, you can order it on
line from CatFaeries..there link is available on my *General Store*
links page) and spritz in on the spots that the cat is scratching.
Hopefully, this will save the furniture and carpet, and your cats claws,
too.
good luck,
lisaviolet
--
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****************************
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do...@my-dejanews.com
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> The problem with my kitties is their scratching. If it was just one thing I
> could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood, one
> rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under and
> sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
> absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
> we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the furniture.
> And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
> scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
It sounds like you are going to have to try some tricks to discourage
your cats from scratching the furniture, and redirect them to the
scratching posts (you've got half the battle won if they are using the
posts). Besides the squirt gun
technique (which, as you already noted, is best to use sparingly), try
to make the furniture unappealing to them. This depends a little on
their likes and dislikes. For example, my cat, Mini, was scratching
our chenille-covered easy chair. I covered it with aluminum foil
for a while (a very space age look!), which works to deter some cats,
but not Mini. I ended up throwing an old flannel sheet over the chair for
a while,
and that worked-the flannel just isn't as appealing to her as chenille
for some reason. Other people recommend taping balloons, or placing
upside-down mousetraps on the areas where you'd like to discourage
scratching-the cat gets a loud surprise when it scratches there and
doesn't ever go back. You might also try putting boxes or objects under and
around the bed temporarily so the bed-scratcher can't get under there.
Once the cat stops the unwanted scratching,
you can remove the, ahem, imaginative decorations and go back to a normal
decor (but, who knows, maybe Martha Stewart will popularize the look!)
All these tricks do require your time, patience, and consistency-and I know
that can be difficult when there's a baby demanding your attention, too. It
sounds like you would regret declawing your cats, though, and are willing to
consider alternatives, so I hope one of these tricks works for you.
Good luck
Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
V & H SIMMONS wrote in message <6p02cl$5eo$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>...
>In article <6p00d6$jfm$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
Elizabeth
Although I am crying again, this is such a stressful topic for me lately, I
appreciate your comments very much, and yes, please pray that I find a
solution, whichever it is, that is best for my kitties and me so that we can
all live in a happy loving home for a very, very long time. Thank you.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Tom and Misty Hammett wrote in message <35B38E60...@iamerica.net>...
Elizabeth
pieces of furniture and certain spots on the rug and have never found one
that worked well enough for any period of time. Guess I just got very
determined cats. Is this Feliway realy good
cause this is the second message that reference it? I really am willing to
try things before declawing, I just think I'm almost out of options here and
I really hate to think about that sometimes.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
lisaviolet wrote in message <35B39CE2...@spamcatcher.com>...
yngver
V & H SIMMONS <fs...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes:
> In article <6p00d6$jfm$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
> "Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >The problem with my kitties is their scratching. If it was just one thing I
> >could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood, one
> >rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under and
> >sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
> >absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
> >we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the furniture.
> >And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
> >scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
> snipped...
>
> Have you spoken with your vet about trying "Feliway" to reduce the scratching
> in inappropriate places?
Also, what kind of scratching posts do you use? The key is to find
something the cats like to scratch better than they like to scratch
your furniture and carpet. If you have the soft carpeted kind of
scratching posts, the cats often think it's okay to scratch anything
that's carpeted.
Most cats prefer a rough surface to scratch. Scratching posts made out
of sisal are generally the best. You can also put down a cheap sisal
floor mat, which my cats like to scratch. Another type of scratching
post that some cats prefer is the corrugated cardboard type, which also
offers a rougher surface than soft carpet.
I also just saw in Cat Fancy an ad for a clear plastic cover that you
put over the arms of furniture, etc. It says that cats hate the feel of
it and soon learn to leave the furniture alone.
V & H SIMMONS
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>I've never heard of Feliway. Could you tell me a little more about it?
>
>--
>Elizabeth
>(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
>
>
It's available through vets here in the UK and also in the States that I know of.
It either masks or somehow deters a cat from scent marking in places where it shouldn't. I've never
had to use it myself, but from the times I've seen it mentioned on the NGs, it seems to have a good
success rate.
I think Lisaviolet has more information on it on her pages.
Regards, helen S
Kathy Fanning
for everyone concerned. I admire your strength and your courage for sharing
everything you have with this NG. Thank you, and I, too, as others have said,
hope that you find something that will work for all of you. One more thought;
several of the Humane Societies and SPCAs whose web pages I've visited recently
indicate they have animal behaviorists to work with you on pet problems for free
over the phone. You might check those in your area and see if they have any
additional ideas.....(the ones near me are the San Francisco SPCA and the Santa
Clara Humane Society).
Best of luck to you and all of yours.
Kathy
Elizabeth wrote:
> The problem with my kitties is their scratching. If it was just one thing I
> could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood, one
> rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under and
> sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
> absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
> we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the furniture.
> And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
> scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
>
> For example, no one has been scratching for weeks and last week, one started
> on the loveseat. Then, when cleaning my son's room, I uncovered a spot in
> the carpet that hadn't see the light of day for a while, one goes over there
> --
> Elizabeth
> (Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
>
> do...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> >May we ask why you are considering this now? If we knew what the problems
> >are, perhaps we could offer you some solutions that are less drastic and
> >less expensive. One thing you could try are
> >Softpaws-claw covers for the kitties that you glue on every so often.
> >Lots of people on this newsgroup have great ideas for training cats to
> >scratching posts, too, so why don't you explore some of those?
> >
> >Sorry, I don't have any
> >experience with declawed cats-I don't believe in doing it, so I can't
> >tell you if there will be behavioral problems or not. But why risk it-
> >especially if there may be cheaper and less final solutions to the
> problems?
> >
Sue
> I don't value my furniture over my cats. I don't want anyone to think I
am
> that shallow, but there has to be a breaking point and I think I've
pretty
> much reached it. I've only got a few things in my life that are mine,
most
> are second hand. I want nice things and I want my cats to behave. They
use
> their posts everyday, why must they also scratch the rest of the house.
Is
> it wrong to want nice things and cats too.
Elizabeth!! I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. It sounds like you're
doing a lot trying to "retrain" the cats. I've read a few of the other
posts, and their ideas for couch covers or the space-age look just might
work! Give it a try and hopefully your nice things will remain nice, and
your kitties will keep their claws.
> I know this message will be answered by others who will just yell at me
for
> being petty, but I've gotten to the point of regretting ever getting the
> cats. I love them dearly, they are like my children. I never wanted to
> regret having them. If this is how I've begun to feel, then I should
have
> the right to look into ways of making them stop this behavior so that I
can
> love them fully and wholly again. It's either that or I won't want them,
> and never get another cat again. This is not the kind of person I want
to
> be.
I have three declawed cats, and regret haveing done it. With my fourth, I
decided not to declaw. BUT, I will not yell at you! You're dealing with
some heavy emotions right now, and that is what needs to be addressed. You
are doing everything "right" in expressing your feelings, and looking for
options! Please, give your cats a hug, take a deep breath, and take it one
step at a time.
> I have looked into
> SoftPaws and didn't think they would work for us. I have a small child
and
> worry about those little paws all over the house and my son swallowing
and
> choking on them. Should this be a concern, anybody out there with a baby
> and softpaws. I will look into them again as a result of all the
postings.
Soft paws do fall off, and they can be VERY dangerous if a little one is
putting everything in the mouth. They can be easily aspirated, as with any
small, hard object (like candy, ice chips, etc). I tried soft paws with the
littlest one, and they lasted about 2 weeks, but her claws were growing so
fast, that they would end up getting caught on things because the base was
halfway down her growing claw.
>
>
> I know this post is long and I'm sure there are things I intended to say
but
> have now forgotten since I am rather upset and crying at the moment.
This
> is a very stressful situation for me and am really not handling it too
well
> as I never wanted to do this to my cats, but am now feeling as if I must
in
> order to restore my sanity, and I'm sure that this comment will also be
met
> with nasty responses.
I'm glad your post was long. It said everything that you were feeling, and
obviously, you're feeling very frustrated. There are those who will say
nasty things, like someone who told me a few posts up that she and her cat
would rip out my fingernails if I declaw (thank god that woman doesn't know
where I live!). But everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I respect that
(but I don't respect threats). And I sincerely respect you for being so
honest about how this is affecting you. I believe you will come to an
answer that will be right for you and your cats.
The very best of luck to you and your family!
Sue
(email changed to avoid spam)
lisaviolet
>
> "Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >I've never heard of Feliway. Could you tell me a little more about it?
> >
> >
> >
> It's available through vets here in the UK and also in the States that I know of.
>
> It either masks or somehow deters a cat from scent marking in places where it shouldn't. I've never
> had to use it myself, but from the times I've seen it mentioned on the NGs, it seems to have a good
> success rate.
>
> I think Lisaviolet has more information on it on her pages.
>
> Regards, helen S
(Hi Helen, coughed up any furballs lately? *VBG*)
Feliway is a spray based on the cats' facial pheromones....you know,
that stuff for humans that *chemistry* is based on (oh, he's so
wonderful, I don't know why he affects me this way, I think I'm in
love...blah, blah, blah...*grins*).
Cat's won't mark where they smell it. They may rub their little
whiskered faces on it, but since it's based on the *facial* scent
glands, they *shouldn't* spray (our problem, but what can you expect
with 18 cats?) or *scratch* scent. One of the instructions read
(paraphrasing here) "spray the area about 3x a day and when you see the
cat rub his face on the area, then reduce the amount of time you spray."
Right now, I have a bottle in the bedroom, my bathroom and the kitchen
(they love those counter walls). And when I keep on top of it, it
works. It should go much easier on upholstered areas.
Once again, good luck.
lisaviolet
--
go to my website to get my real email address
****************************
the best little cathouse in cyberspace
<http://www.lisaviolet.com>
Send Postcards From the Cathouse
<http://lisaviolet.simplenet.com/postcards>
live from the cathouse-the catcam
rr...@lanminds.com
I have had a great deal of success with No-Scratch from Pet Organics.
My kitten was one of those ones who would systematically shred the
bottom of the boxsprings, but she stopped entirely after spraying the
bottom of the matress with it. It's about $9 around me, but it lasts
for a while. It smells a bit bad when you spray it (a bit pungent and
spicy), but the smell dissipates pretty fast, at least to human noses.
It's organic too, so it shouldn't have any bad affects on your baby.
Rebecca
Susie B
usually, but that they would have streaks of clawing non-allowed
things. Can you think of any changes that might be setting them off?
You say you have a small child, so you must be quite busy. Could they
be occasionally feeling ignored?
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:39:40 -0400, "Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
>I've tried other so called cat repellents to get them away from certain
>pieces of furniture and certain spots on the rug and have never found one
>that worked well enough for any period of time. Guess I just got very
>determined cats. Is this Feliway realy good
>cause this is the second message that reference it? I really am willing to
>try things before declawing, I just think I'm almost out of options here and
>I really hate to think about that sometimes.
>--
>Elizabeth
>(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
>
>
>lisaviolet wrote in message <35B39CE2...@spamcatcher.com>...
>>Elizabeth, one of the reasons that cats *scratch* furniture and other
>>things is to leave their scent. People that have declawed cats remark
>>that their cats still *scratch* as they did before, when they aren't
>>scratching at all, they are leaving their *calling card*.
>>
--
Susie B and the Thundering Herd
Rambo, Miss Kitty, Rocky and Tabitha
Join the fight against spam. http://www.cauce.org/
Elizabeth
the incidents happened. It was honestly one of the first things we
considered.
We have gone to great lenghts and expense to let our kitties (who were our
first children) know they are still loved and wanted, since before our son
was born. The cat tree was a huge purchase for us, researched like we were
buying a car practically, and was their "gift" when the baby arrived. I
spend time with each one every day, at least I make an effort too. Of
course, there are days when this doesn't happen for each cat. They
definitely get attention and are not ignored. As a matter of fact, Tonachpa
(Notchie for short) is sitting on my desk in front of my keyboard with my
arms around him as I type this! He's purring so much, I can feel it
vibrating in the desk!
At one point when our son was a newborn and already in bed, my hubby and I
would sit on the floor and gather all the cats around for a group scritchin
and holding. A little kitty love fest! It was very good for them and
theraputic (sp?) for us. We had made this a pre-bedtime routine. It was
during this time that one of the scratching outbreaks happened. Talk about
frustrating for me. I know my cats are getting attention and still they
scratch. We tried posts, repellents, clipping nails, covering the places
with things they won't scratch, blocking off those sections of the floor
with furniture, and still they'd do it. And always in the middle of the
night or the crack of dawn.
I'm sure they are occasionally ignored, as are most people's cats, but with
a few exceptions, the instances of scratching have not really corresponded.
If it did, I'd have my solution at hand. Thanks for the thoughts though,
they are appreciated.
Yours and everyone elses posts are making me think that I haven't really
tried everything yet. Maybe I am not yet at the point of no return. Keep
those ideas coming people!
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Susie B wrote in message <35b40a12...@news.newsguy.com>...
>Hi! You said on another thread that they used their scratching posts
>usually, but that they would have streaks of clawing non-allowed
>things. Can you think of any changes that might be setting them off?
>You say you have a small child, so you must be quite busy. Could they
>be occasionally feeling ignored?
Elizabeth
up on it a little more. Maybe it will do the trick.
Elizabeth
it's organic. My little boy is into everything, following the cats wherever
it is humanly possible, so possible toxic effects is a great concern to me.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
rr...@lanminds.com wrote in message <35b4028e...@nntp.lanminds.com>...
Elizabeth
tree has tree trunk (with bark too) limbs, carpeted ledges, and a really
tight carpet like material over the base and house part. They love it.
But, I understand what you mean about the similiar objects and could almost
handle the rug scratching, but that's only a small part of the problem.
It's the furniture scratching that I don't handle well.
Thank you for the suggestions on posts, I will look into adding a few more,
different types, strategically about the house. This is very difficult for
me as i have a little toddler into everything, but compromise is a Mom's
middle name. We'll give it a another try, it's got to be worth a try before
the expense and stress of declawing.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
yngver wrote in message ...
Elizabeth
the baby around.
How exactly did you attach the aluminum foil to the furniture?
The mouse trap wouldn't work for me since the baby would head for it like it
was the latest and greatest of toys. We cover my once beautiful chair with
cat throws and they just climbed underneath them to scratch - smart and
frustrating that's my cats!
I've never believed in declawing and you are right, I don't want to do it to
my babies. So I am willing to try alternatives, even if they make my
furniture look space age!
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
do...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6p0ibq$n5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6p00d4$ir5$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
> "Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> The problem with my kitties is their scratching. If it was just one
thing I
>> could probably counteract it, but it's everything. One scratches wood,
one
>> rugs and furniture, another just furniture, and the last does the under
and
>> sides of my bed. This is extremely frustrating to me. What makes it
>> absolutely worse is the fact that they ALL use the scratching posts, and
>> we've a few located about the house. They still come back to the
furniture.
>> And it's not all the time either, it's like they go through phases and
>> scratch everything in site and will then be "good" again.
>
Elizabeth
really ripped into me like I saw in earlier posts. I am sincere in my
feelings and love my cats dearly. I am taking everyone's ideas and
suggestions into consideration and will go over them all with my hubby and
figure out what we can try with the baby. I guess Softpaws are not it as my
son puts everything in his mouth, oh well, maybe when he gets older if I am
still dealing with this then. I am thankful that no one has threatened to
declaw me as you mentioned and I read earlier, I almost didn't post because
of how some posters sounded, but I really needed some cat owners opinions on
the subject. For my cats' sake I posted. Thank you for your best wishes, I
certainly need them.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Sue wrote in message <01bdb446$da4e0ae0$c7543ace@default>...
>Elizabeth!! I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. It sounds like you're
>doing a lot trying to "retrain" the cats. I've read a few of the other
>posts, and their ideas for couch covers or the space-age look just might
>work! Give it a try and hopefully your nice things will remain nice, and
>your kitties will keep their claws.
>
>I have three declawed cats, and regret haveing done it. With my fourth, I
>decided not to declaw. BUT, I will not yell at you! You're dealing with
>some heavy emotions right now, and that is what needs to be addressed. You
>are doing everything "right" in expressing your feelings, and looking for
>options! Please, give your cats a hug, take a deep breath, and take it one
>step at a time.
>
>Soft paws do fall off, and they can be VERY dangerous if a little one is
>putting everything in the mouth. They can be easily aspirated, as with any
>small, hard object (like candy, ice chips, etc). I tried soft paws with the
>littlest one, and they lasted about 2 weeks, but her claws were growing so
>fast, that they would end up getting caught on things because the base was
>halfway down her growing claw.
>>
o...@gci-net.com
>-yngver
>(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
Contrary to your anecdotes, the studies of clawed vs declawed cats
show no differences in physical or psychological condition. Some cats
bite, clawed or not, for example. And what's the problem with adopting
a declawed cat?
Kathy
chair/couch arms.....anything that doesn't feel "good"/satisfying will
discourage them. Masking tape could work to fasten the aluminum foil without
doing damage to the upholstery/wood as well. Thanks for being such an open,
loving person!!!!!
Kathy
do...@my-dejanews.com
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the ideas. Sounds like some might work for me, others not with
> the baby around.
>
> How exactly did you attach the aluminum foil to the furniture?
In our case, Mini was scratching the arms and cushions of an upholstered
easy chair. We were able to tear off long sheets of foil and tuck them
into the cushions and around the arms securely. Of course, Mini is one of
the rare cats who actually LIKES aluminum foil, so we went with the
flannel sheet instead. Most cats really hate the feel of foil though.
If the scratched-upon chair isn't the cushioned kind, you'll have to
find another way of attaching the foil. A possibility is double-sided sticky
tape or masking tape (but test and make sure it doesn't mark the chair first).
Usually there is some way of scrunching and wrapping the foil pretty securely
(here is where your bridal shower skills come in handy; ever play toilet-
paper bride? No pins or tape allowed...) It might take a lot of foil though-
so head on down to Costco and get the super-duper size Reynolds Wrap!
If the foil idea doesn't work, try some of the other suggestions (the Feliway
and animal behavior specialists sound like good leads to me, although I've
never tried either).
Good luck,
yngver
"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
> We tried posts, repellents, clipping nails, covering the places
> with things they won't scratch, blocking off those sections of the floor
> with furniture, and still they'd do it. And always in the middle of the
> night or the crack of dawn.
That's important information. That means they are doing it when they
first wake up (which is normal), so you are right, it probably has
nothing to do with not getting enough attention.
Since cats do typically stretch and scratch when they wake up from a
nap, I wonder if it's possible that they all wake up at once and want
to use the same scratching posts? Maybe there's some rivalry among the
cats going on, and the problem is one of territory.
robert a moeser
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Yours and everyone elses posts are making me think that I haven't really
> tried everything yet. Maybe I am not yet at the point of no return. Keep
> those ideas coming people!
well, this may have been advanced before, but it's worth saying again.
lennie has all kinds of sanctioned scratching places. his mood seems to
dictate which he uses. if you possibly can, provide
horizontal
vertical
wood w/ and w/o bark
carpet
sisal rope
and one of lennie's favorites, those little disposable cardboard w/ catnip
scratching boxes.
you might find less,er, consequential damages.
also, profuse praise for using the sanctioned scratching devices coupled
with mild disapproval or a good old squirt from Mr. Plant Mister can work
wonders.
so, too, can a "sacrificial" piece of furniture. makes the little devils
think they are getting one over on you.
-- rob
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> And what's the problem with adopting
> a declawed cat?
It's simple. I believe declawing is cruel and damages a cat both
physically and psychologically. As I said, the cats I've known who've
been declawed have exhibited neuroses due to their lack of claws.
Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
the only person who feels this way.
I have not seen the studies you mention, so perhaps you can give an
indication as to where to find them. The articles I've read written by
vets have indicated behavioral problems associated with declawing
(recently there was a column on this in Tufts' newsletter) but they did
not cite studies, so I assume what I've read has only been the personal
observations of individual vets.
Elizabeth
Where to put cat scratching posts where a baby can't get them??? Hmmm.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
robert a moeser wrote in message ...
Elizabeth
their behavior over the next week or so. Maybe I'm wrong. They all sleep
in different places, and scratch in different places too. Even when they
scratch on the same tree. One stretches up on the tree trunk, one does it
sitting on one of the ledges, and the other two mostly hit either side of
the base. But you guys are right, all are doing it in different positions.
Now, if I can add some more posts in those different positions, I might have
my solutions, along with something to deter them from the furniture they've
already started clawing, and lots more praise and teasing about scratching
the good places. I feel like I'm planning an asault on a foreign country,
laying down tactical maps and all that silly stuff.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
yngver wrote in message ...
>In article <6p2c10$n12$4...@winter.news.erols.com>
>"Elizabeth" <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
>
>> We tried posts, repellents, clipping nails, covering the places
>> with things they won't scratch, blocking off those sections of the floor
>> with furniture, and still they'd do it. And always in the middle of the
>> night or the crack of dawn.
>
>That's important information. That means they are doing it when they
>first wake up (which is normal), so you are right, it probably has
>nothing to do with not getting enough attention.
>Since cats do typically stretch and scratch when they wake up from a
>nap, I wonder if it's possible that they all wake up at once and want
>to use the same scratching posts? Maybe there's some rivalry among the
>cats going on, and the problem is one of territory.
>
Elizabeth
Guess I'm adding masking tape to my shopping list this weekend. We're going
to space age the bad scratching places!!! Hopefully the baby won't think
it's the greates new toy in the world.
I am so glad I posted my message here. Everyone's been so understanding and
thoughtful and so so helpful. I really did feel like I HAD to declaw my
babies, and it was the absolute last thing I ever wanted to do to them. I
felt like I had done everything I could think of, and talking with everyone
here has given me so many more ideas to try, I'm so glad I didn't just call
the vet and make an appointment. After all the suggestions I've read, I'm
beginning to think that declawing might have just been the easy way out.
Thank you all.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Kathy wrote in message <35B4E1C8...@ibm.net>...
Elizabeth
the bad scratching places are in the stretch up to scratch position so the
foil has to be held onto a vertical position. Hopefully they won't move to
other places (it's happened in the past when we've successfully hidden a bad
spot), but if they do, we'll try so of your other ideas.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
do...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6p35e9$hh7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
yngver
r...@tiac.net (robert a moeser) writes:
> well, this may have been advanced before, but it's worth saying again.
>
> lennie has all kinds of sanctioned scratching places. his mood seems to
> dictate which he uses. if you possibly can, provide
>
> horizontal
>
> vertical
>
> wood w/ and w/o bark
>
> carpet
>
> sisal rope
>
> and one of lennie's favorites, those little disposable cardboard w/ catnip
> scratching boxes.
>
> you might find less,er, consequential damages.
>
> also, profuse praise for using the sanctioned scratching devices coupled
> with mild disapproval or a good old squirt from Mr. Plant Mister can work
> wonders.
>
> so, too, can a "sacrificial" piece of furniture. makes the little devils
> think they are getting one over on you.
Yes, we have an old rattan chair on our porch (this chair was bought at
Pier One at least 15 years ago for about $25) which is the sacrificial
chair. They can claw on it to their heart's content. While I wouldn't
care if they ruined the old thing, to be honest I can't really see any
damage. Maybe beat up old wicker or rattan is the perfect "sacrificial"
furniture because it stands up to a lot of abuse!
Eva Quesnell
I got this tip from this ng a couple of years ago: you take a piece of
string and dangle it enticingly in front of kitty. Get the kitty to start
chasing the string. Then drag the string across the scratching tree.
This gets the kitty interested in the feel of the post when they attack
the string. It's all well and good to have plenty of scratching posts,
but you've got to get them started using it. Usually, once they get the
feel of a good rope post, they're not as interested in the couch or the
carpet anymore. This worked like a charm on my cats! :)
Eva
Julie Harding
my furniture and the wood trim. My fiance is insisting I have them
declawed. I have scratching posts and pads for them, which helps a
little... I had two cats declawed 20 years ago, and swore I'd never do it
again. After the "operation" one he began to urinate on my clothes
and never stopped, and the other, well he became very neurotic.
-Julie
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, C&M Towle wrote:
> I hope you reconsider - there really are tons of workable and
> painless options.
>
> Monica
>
C&M Towle
Julie Harding wrote in message ...
C&M Towle
Thank you for being so willing to try some of the very helpful
ideas posted. With your determination and willingness to make
it work, it will. I know it's work initially and takes time
and patience, but in the long run, it really is worth it and
you won't have put your cats through traumatic surgery.
Good luck and thoughts,
Monica
Elizabeth wrote in message
<6p52g9$o5k$4...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>Gee thanks (blushing)!
>
>Guess I'm adding masking tape to my shopping list this
weekend. We're going
>to space age the bad scratching places!!! Hopefully the baby
won't think
>it's the greates new toy in the world.
>
>I am so glad I posted my message here. Everyone's been so
understanding and
>thoughtful and so so helpful. I really did feel like I HAD
to declaw my
>babies, and it was the absolute last thing I ever wanted to
do to them. I
>felt like I had done everything I could think of, and talking
with everyone
>here has given me so many more ideas to try, I'm so glad I
didn't just call
>the vet and make an appointment. After all the suggestions
I've read, I'm
>beginning to think that declawing might have just been the
easy way out.
>Thank you all.
>
rr...@lanminds.com
wrote:
>the base. But you guys are right, all are doing it in different positions.
>Now, if I can add some more posts in those different positions, I might have
>my solutions, along with something to deter them from the furniture they've
>already started clawing, and lots more praise and teasing about scratching
>the good places. I feel like I'm planning an asault on a foreign country,
>laying down tactical maps and all that silly stuff.
>
>--
>Elizabeth
>(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
>
If you have one of those posts with squares on the top and bottom, you
can lay it on its side, so that it's resting on a corner of the top
and an edge of the bottom. Mine seem to prefer it that way.. they
like to stand on thier scratching posts. They can also play more
around/with it in that postion.
Rebecca
robert a moeser
> In article <35b8d341...@news.gci-net.com>
> o...@gci-net.com writes:
>
> > And what's the problem with adopting
> > a declawed cat?
>
> It's simple. I believe declawing is cruel and damages a cat both
> physically and psychologically. As I said, the cats I've known who've
> been declawed have exhibited neuroses due to their lack of claws.
> Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
> the only person who feels this way.
well, i wouldn't either, but i'll cop to it being a bit selfish...
why adopt a declawed cat when there are so many perfectly good cats with
claws available?
but i think the same basic argument could be made about a one-legged cat
or a deaf cat or a cat whose coat was a little greasy. someone with more
time and patience and someone i guess more charitable and giving then i
will give even these "reject" cats a chance to have a nice home and a
comfortable life.
i did rescue one ragged flea-bag no-chance-at-all cat - i might have
spent my lifetime supply of charity and giving on that cat and in
return i got five years of knowing a most extraordinary animal.
to say he cleaned up nice is the understatement of a lifetime.
-- rob
yngver
r...@tiac.net (robert a moeser) writes:
> > Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
> > the only person who feels this way.
>
> well, i wouldn't either, but i'll cop to it being a bit selfish...
>
> why adopt a declawed cat when there are so many perfectly good cats with
> claws available?
>
> but i think the same basic argument could be made about a one-legged cat
> or a deaf cat or a cat whose coat was a little greasy. someone with more
> time and patience and someone i guess more charitable and giving then i
> will give even these "reject" cats a chance to have a nice home and a
> comfortable life.
>
> i did rescue one ragged flea-bag no-chance-at-all cat - i might have
> spent my lifetime supply of charity and giving on that cat and in
> return i got five years of knowing a most extraordinary animal.
>
> to say he cleaned up nice is the understatement of a lifetime.
I agree with you in principle but even though to me a declawed cat is a
mutilated cat, I wouldn't put it in the same class as a deaf or
three-legged cat. If I were in a position to, I would adopt one of
these "defective" cats knowing probably no one else would, but since
there are plenty of other people who would see a declawed cat and no
doubt think "Great, I don't have to pay for declawing," I would not
feel guilty passing it by.
It warms my heart too much to see how much my cats enjoy having claws.
I'd hate to own a cat that had had that joy taken away from him by some
thoughtless human. Although I really wonder how thoughtless a person
would have to be to have a cat declawed and then dump it at a shelter
anyway.
antonia
Derek Ralston wrote in message <35b1edc1...@news.jps.net>...
>
>>
>>There are *lots* of places in the world where declawing is not practised.
It is either actually
>>illegal, or so abhorred, it isn't done - unless for medical reasons.
>
>Name, oh let's say, half a dozen...
>
Actually, as far as I know, North America is the only place where it is
common...
On a lighter note:
>People in other parts of the world also don't kill rats that cause
>destruction of their own food. Just because there is someplace that
>may not do something, that is no reason to follow their lead.
Ah, Derek, but tens of thousands of people in the US (and other places) keep
domesticated (or Fancy) rats as house pets... just plug the words pet+rat
into a search engine or into Deja-news to get an idea of how many....
...sorry, I know it is irrelevant to the debate but I couldn't resist
throwing it in... ;-)
Antonia
London, England
3 cats, 25 rats and a fiancé
RFerrie
>In article <35b8d341...@news.gci-net.com>
>o...@gci-net.com writes:
>
>> And what's the problem with adopting
>> a declawed cat?
>
>It's simple. I believe declawing is cruel and damages a cat both
>physically and psychologically. As I said, the cats I've known who've
>been declawed have exhibited neuroses due to their lack of claws.
>Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
>the only person who feels this way.
<snip>
Don't you think that this is a bit hypocritical, given the "we must
accept the way cats are" philosophy many anti-declawers espouse?
How is "I won't adopt a cat which may or may not exhibit neurosis" any
different than 'I won't adopt a cat which may destroy my furniture"?
Some people might actually suggest that refusing to take in a cat who
is (allegedly) traumatized is *more* selfish than refusing to take in
a cat who will damage property. Personally, I think they're just about
equal.
Many anti-declawers set up the ideal (and thus themselves) as totally
altruistic - "I will allow my cats to destroy everything I own before
declawing. After all, that's what cats do, and if you can't deal with
that, you shouldn't have a cat". Well, true altruism would also
include a traumatized cat, or a neurotic cat - because *that* is the
way that cat is.
I have declawed cats (I might also add, that they are neither neurotic
nor traumatized). But if one of them were to become neurotic or
traumatized for some reason, I *would* keep them. Unlike you, who
wouldn't even give them a chance. Which of us is more altruistic?
Which one of us loves cats more? Hard to say, isn't it?
Renee
Warning: Keep out of reach of children. They're really, really annoying.
Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
rr...@lanminds.com wrote in message <35b6e0e8...@nntp.lanminds.com>...
Elizabeth
everyone's suggestions to her - I've saved so many of them. Just waiting
for her to let me know.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
Elizabeth
mean to me when I intially posted my question. Everyone has been very
helpful and I do really appreciate it. I've got a lot of work ahead of me,
but the good thing is none of the cats are going through a scratching frenzy
at the moment. This will give me ample time to work on a plan of action,
get some new posts for them and get supplies together for covering the bad
scratching places. Hopefully my new game plan will work and they'll never
head back to the furniture and rugs and then I'll never need to space age my
furniture.
I honestly think they've sensed how upset and stressed I've been lately, and
as a result have been around me more often so they've been getting more pets
and scritchins. They've gotten more attention and relieved my stress a bit
without even realizing it. And, as a result we've started the
anti-scratching campaign without even noticing.
I really do thank you all.
--
Elizabeth
(Reply to newsgroup. Email is incorrect to avoid spam.)
C&M Towle wrote in message ...
JEANNE'S PURRFECT
Susie B
>It warms my heart too much to see how much my cats enjoy having claws.
And that is precisely why I could never declaw a cat. I could never
bear to rob them of the use of their claws.
>I'd hate to own a cat that had had that joy taken away from him by some
>thoughtless human. Although I really wonder how thoughtless a person
>would have to be to have a cat declawed and then dump it at a shelter
>anyway.
We get them occasionally where I volunteer. And we are the city pound,
so the animals we get are either animals that got out and are lost or
were just dumped out onto the street.
>-yngver
>(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
--
Susie B and the Thundering Herd
Rambo, Miss Kitty, Rocky and Tabitha
Join the fight against spam. http://www.cauce.org/
Pussido Domingo
> Don't you think that this is a bit hypocritical, given the "we must
> accept the way cats are" philosophy many anti-declawers espouse?
While I disagree with you 100% over declawing, I agree with you 100%
about this. I would never reject a cat because it had some kind of
problem, in fact I find myself drawn to those who are most needy. One
of my cats was very badly abused before I got him and came to me with
horrendous toileting problems which have taken a long time to stop.
Five years on he is a happy and balanced cat, who rarely shows his
former insecurity. My two 11 month old kittens are both three-legged
due to human cruelty when they were only about three weeks old. All
three of these cats, and every disabled cat I've ever known in all the
shelters I've worked in over the years, are very special cats who are
well worth the emotional, and often financial, investment required to
"rehabilitate" them. I wish more people would realise that.
> How is "I won't adopt a cat which may or may not exhibit neurosis" any
> different than 'I won't adopt a cat which may destroy my furniture"?
I don't believe it's different at all. A declawed cat exhibiting
neurosis is just as needy as one who has lost a leg or an eye. It has
had an experience which has marked it, and it needs to be loved and
cared for.
> Some people might actually suggest that refusing to take in a cat who
> is (allegedly) traumatized is *more* selfish than refusing to take in
> a cat who will damage property. Personally, I think they're just about
> equal.
We must get away from the myth that because a cat has claws it *will*
"damage property". Until that cat is given a domestic setting, there is
absolutely no way of knowing how it will behave.
> Many anti-declawers set up the ideal (and thus themselves) as totally
> altruistic - "I will allow my cats to destroy everything I own before
> declawing. After all, that's what cats do, and if you can't deal with
> that, you shouldn't have a cat".
Here I have to take issue with you. Declawing is animal abuse and I
would never countenance it under any circumstances. However, you are
here assuming that all fully-clawed cats will "destroy everything I
own". You are also making the assumption that destroying the furniture
is "what cats do". That is complete rubbish. Destroying everything you
own is not "what cats do". Some cats have more of a tendency to scratch
than others, but to say they will "destroy everything I own" is the most
ridiculous exaggeration. Millions of people around the world live
perfectly happily with fully-clawed cats - and they don't live in a
house that has been destroyed. They don't all sit on shredded
furniture. They live with well-balanced, unmutilated cats who have been
trained not to scratch the furniture. Quite why so many American cat
owners are incapable of such training is beyond me.
Something that is rarely addressed in the declawing debates is the fact
that this issue is wholly connected with the American habit of keeping
cats indoors. I have no intention of entering an indoor cat debate
here, but it's about time that people realised that these two issues are
inseparable. You take a cat into your home, in the full knowledge that
the animal's physical characteristics include claws. You then
incarcerate it in what is merely a large cage for up to 18 years, and
if it displays the perfectly normal and natural reaction to that
incarceration, you amputate part of it's toes. What creature sentenced
to life imprisonment is not likely to display such behaviour to some
degree? What do you think a dog would do if it was never allowed
outside the house? It is *exactly* what you should expect of the cat,
yet millions of Americans view this perfectly natural reaction as
unacceptable behaviour, when they themselves have caused it.
A tiger in a cage at the zoo displays it's frustration and boredom by
pacing the cage. An indoor cat often displays it's frustration and
boredom by exercising the claws it's unable to exercise in the natural
world, in the only world it has access to. The owner restricts it's
territory to the inside of the house and then mutilates it because it
displays a natural reaction and marks that territory. Many owners
mutilate *before* it displays that natural reaction - they maim it
without even knowing whether the cat is going to scratch.
*That* is why this issue triggers such disgust around the world. And
that is why millions of people around the world say that if American cat
owners put an animal into that situation but can't deal with the
consequences, then they shouldn't have a cat.
> Well, true altruism would also
> include a traumatized cat, or a neurotic cat - because *that* is the
> way that cat is.
I agree, and as a declawed cat is a disabled cat, to refuse to give it a
home is not altruistic.
> I have declawed cats
That is very sad.
> (I might also add, that they are neither neurotic
> nor traumatized). But if one of them were to become neurotic or
> traumatized for some reason, I *would* keep them. Unlike you, who
> wouldn't even give them a chance. Which of us is more altruistic?
> Which one of us loves cats more? Hard to say, isn't it?
While I would dispute the possibility that someone who would willingly
mutilate their cat purely for their own benefit truly loves it, I take
the point you are making here. I agree that an anti-declawer who would
not consider taking a traumatized cat is hypocritical.
PD
yngver
rfe...@rocketmail.com (RFerrie) writes:
> Don't you think that this is a bit hypocritical, given the "we must
> accept the way cats are" philosophy many anti-declawers espouse?
No, I don't. I don't mean that I would refuse to take in a declawed cat
that was dumped on my doorstep; of course I would. But if I went to a
shelter to choose a new cat, I would always choose a cat with claws
over a declawed cat. My own philosophy is not "we must accept cats the
way they are". There are many cats I've come across that I would not
want to own because of their temperament, etc.
>
> How is "I won't adopt a cat which may or may not exhibit neurosis" any
> different than 'I won't adopt a cat which may destroy my furniture"?
To me, the difference is that the second person doesn't understand that
cats can be trained not to destroy furniture. But since I feel
confident that the second person would no doubt adopt the declawed cat
that I would not, I don't feel any discomfort about it.
> Some people might actually suggest that refusing to take in a cat who
> is (allegedly) traumatized is *more* selfish than refusing to take in
> a cat who will damage property. Personally, I think they're just about
> equal.
>
> Many anti-declawers set up the ideal (and thus themselves) as totally
> altruistic - "I will allow my cats to destroy everything I own before
> declawing. After all, that's what cats do, and if you can't deal with
> that, you shouldn't have a cat". Well, true altruism would also
> include a traumatized cat, or a neurotic cat - because *that* is the
> way that cat is.
I have owned cats all my life. All of them have had claws. None of them
have destoyed anything. Therefore, I don't understand your altruism
argument. I wouldn't like it if my cats ruined something, which is why
I trained them to use a scratching post. I can't really understand what
keeping cats with claws has to do with altruism.
>
> I have declawed cats (I might also add, that they are neither neurotic
> nor traumatized). But if one of them were to become neurotic or
> traumatized for some reason, I *would* keep them. Unlike you, who
> wouldn't even give them a chance. Which of us is more altruistic?
> Which one of us loves cats more? Hard to say, isn't it?
Oh, no, obviously you love cats a lot more than I do. I only love
certain cats (mine) and there are certainly plenty of cats I don't
love. But I wouldn't wish declawing on even cats I dislike.
o...@gci-net.com
wrote:
>In article <EwI3E...@midway.uchicago.edu>, ing...@aol.com (yngver) wrote:
>
>> In article <35b8d341...@news.gci-net.com>
>> o...@gci-net.com writes:
>>
>> > And what's the problem with adopting
>> > a declawed cat?
>>
>> It's simple. I believe declawing is cruel and damages a cat both
>> physically and psychologically. As I said, the cats I've known who've
>> been declawed have exhibited neuroses due to their lack of claws.
>> Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
>> the only person who feels this way.
>
>well, i wouldn't either, but i'll cop to it being a bit selfish...
>
>why adopt a declawed cat when there are so many perfectly good cats with
>claws available?
Because one adopts a cat for it's personality and its companionship
and you'd condemn it to death because some person had it declawed.
Punish the cat for something it had nothing to do with. How kind and
caring of you!
>
>but i think the same basic argument could be made about a one-legged cat
>or a deaf cat or a cat whose coat was a little greasy. someone with more
>time and patience and someone i guess more charitable and giving then i
>will give even these "reject" cats a chance to have a nice home and a
>comfortable life.
>
>i did rescue one ragged flea-bag no-chance-at-all cat - i might have
>spent my lifetime supply of charity and giving on that cat and in
>return i got five years of knowing a most extraordinary animal.
>
>to say he cleaned up nice is the understatement of a lifetime.
>
>-- rob
Tricia Kirkland
toy , she is more inclined to use it. Also, I have found the
rope post are better than the carpeted ones. It seems to satisfy
them more and they don't think all carpet is fair game.
o...@gci-net.com
PURRFECT) wrote:
>OK! For the last 25 years, I have taken care of cats. Over the years,
>I probably have littered, medicaled, feed and loved about 130 cats (not
>all at the same time).
>I can proudly say that I have never had one cat declawed.
>
>Yes, furniture has been torn, but for me, I would prefer to have torn
>furniture than torn cats.
I'm not in favor of declawing, but would you deny a home to a cat if
that were the ONLY option for those who had it, and in their mind it
is.
>
>Would anyone of us ever consider declawing our children? Watching as
>their nails were ripped from their fingers. It can be a very bloody
>procedure.
I am surprised that in 25 years of caring for cats that you don't know
that the third phalanx which is removed by declawing is not remotely
similar in function to human fingers. And declawing, by the way, is
NOT ripping out the claws. Perhaps you could get a cat anatomy book or
talk to a vet school. Cornell U. Feline Center tells me that claws
have no necessary function for an indoor cat.
>
>All of us who own cats are indeed fortunate. We have had the priviledge
>of living with an alien species, different than our own species.
>
>Treat others as you, yourself, would want to be treated, regardless of
>what species they are. The universe is really a wonderful place. Stop
>and listen and you will hear it whispering to you!
Then I presume your ae a vegan, don't wear leather shoes, etc. By the
way what do you feed your cat(s)? Mine need animal protein from
butchered animals.
o...@gci-net.com
>x-no-archive: yes
>>>Subject: Re: Declawing
>>From: J2...@webtv.net (JEANNE'S PURRFECT)
>>Date: 7/23/98 10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <2948-35...@newsd-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>>
>(Snip)
>Would anyone of us ever consider declawing our children? Watching as their
>nails were ripped from their fingers. It can be a very bloody procedure.
>(Snip)<
>
>===
>A horrible thought, but it would actually be worse than what you say--more like
>cutting the fingers off at the first or second joint.
>
I am not in favor of declawing but this image is designed to inflame
and disgust. Unfortunately it's inaccurate. If we want to get anywhere
with educating people to the alternatives to declawing, this isn't the
way to do it. The cat's third phalanx is not remotely similar to any
part of a human finger. Let's stick to the facts.
You can raise more money for cat welfare with a picture of a happy
cat and a success story than with a picture of a cat being euthanised,
for example.
>..........................................................................
>
> "Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it.
>Whatever he does
>to the web, he does to himself."
>
> Chief Seattle, 1854.
Tricia Kirkland
and toes removed?
Hugo Nebula
<pussido...@catlover.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Millions of people around the world live
>perfectly happily with fully-clawed cats - and they don't live in a
>house that has been destroyed. <...>Quite why so many American cat
>owners are incapable of such training is beyond me.
>
>Something that is rarely addressed in the declawing debates is the fact
>that this issue is wholly connected with the American habit of keeping
>cats indoors.
<snip>
>What creature sentenced
>to life imprisonment is not likely to display such behaviour to some
>degree?
<snip>
>The owner restricts it's
>territory to the inside of the house and then mutilates it because it
>displays a natural reaction and marks that territory.
<snip>
>*That* is why this issue triggers such disgust around the world. And
>that is why millions of people around the world say that if American cat
>owners put an animal into that situation but can't deal with the
>consequences, then they shouldn't have a cat.
Thank you for this reasoned piece. I have been wanting to say
something similar, but have (metaphorically) bit my tongue due to the
likelihood of being flamed!
My cat has (until I moved house recently) had unrestricted access to
the outside. Recently after the move, she is reluctant to stray away
from the house, so I accomodate her by providing a litter tray and a
scratching post inside, so she does not need to venture out if she
does not want to. I am sure that after settling into the new area,
she will want to spend more time outside.
It is said often in this group that cats will live longer if kept
indoors all their life. This may well be the case, but how would you
like life imprisonment without parole? I'll bet you would soon wish
for the electric chair!
Obviously, there are un-natural dangers for cats, such as fast-moving
traffic. If you live in a location which is dangerous for cats, then
perhaps you shouldn't HAVE a cat. I lived in a third storey flat
(apartment) where I would have liked to own a cat, but I knew it would
be cruel to keep one where they had no access to the outside world.
(Sprinklers at the ready!)
--
Hugo Nebula
Put Alex before @ to reply.
Tricia Kirkland
What do cats use to pick things up with? Mine use their claws.
Tricia Kirkland
very well to smaller places. All cats want is a quiet place to
nap, something to chase and play with , someone to talk to and a
full belly. That doesn't take space.
yngver
Tricia Kirkland <t...@cybersouth.com> writes:
As an American, I used to believe this because this is what cat owners
are told in the U.S. I actually believed this despite my own
experience, that my cats were much happier having access to the
outdoors.
However, having read more now about the international point of view, I
no longer believe it. Why do Americans not make the association between
keeping cats indoors all the time and the prevalence of behavioral
problems among U.S. cats?
Of course if you live in an apartment in a big city, it's probably
impossible for you to safely give your cats an outdoor experience. I am
definitely not an advocate of letting cats run loose in areas where
they may easily be hit by cars or meet with other dangers. Still, I
think that with people who live in the suburbs and own their own
houses, even a cat run would result in happier, more well behaved cats.
Also, it's not that hard to cat-proof a fence, so if you have a yard,
with a small amount of effort it can become an outdoor haven for your
cat.
Aside from that, even apartment dwellers can try training a cat to
leash and harness.
Also, some types of cats are certainly happier than others at being
cooped up all day. If you have the kind of cat that spends most of its
time sleeping and isn't very adventurous, that cat will adapt better to
being indoors only than an active, curious cat. That kind of cat has
another need which isn't on your list: he/she needs to explore.
Tricia Kirkland
My inside ones are happier than the outside ones. They have the
whole house to explore. Open closets are an adventure. They hunt
under the beds or in dark rooms. They are not missing anything by
not going out.
I live in the country, with 400 acres for the others to roam.
That's why I have so many. Most are feral cats that have taken up
here. I can't just let them go hungry. I buy two 18lbs bags of
cat food, every week, just for them. But, since they are wild, i
can't catch them to doctor them. Some of their kittens have
colds? , and their eyes get matted. Is there anything I might be
able to put in their food to help them?
One little black boy is blind most of the time. I'll catch him
and clean his eyes and give him a dose of Silver. But the next
day, they're closed again. I feed him good while he's inside and
make sure his face is dry before I put him back out. I don't know
if he's going to make it, but it won't be for lack of trying.
The problem with bringing him inside is, now my 3 month old
inside cat has his haws showing. I raised this baby on a bottle,
since he was under a week old. He's my heart.
What else can I do?
Bub...@thevortex.com
too. My cat stopped scratching anything but her scratching board - WHEN we were in sight! hehe!.
Our sollution has been to go for furniture and wall coverings that don't get so easily damaged by scratching - and which aren't as "comfy" for cat to scratch - painted
walls and leather or vinyl or wood furniture work well.
Best of luck :-)
do...@my-dejanews.com
Tricia Kirkland <t...@cybersouth.com> wrote:
> I live in the country, with 400 acres for the others to roam.
> That's why I have so many. Most are feral cats that have taken up
> here. I can't just let them go hungry. I buy two 18lbs bags of
> cat food, every week, just for them. But, since they are wild, i
> can't catch them to doctor them. Some of their kittens have
> colds? , and their eyes get matted. Is there anything I might be
> able to put in their food to help them?
Tricia,
Check out Alley Cat Allies (www.alleycat.org)-they have some very
useful information about caring for ferals. They also sponsor TTVAR
(trap, test, vaccinate, alter, and release) programs in the US-they
may be able to guide you to one in your area.
Good luck, and thanks for caring about the cats.
Marca
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Pussido Domingo
> <snip>
> However, having read more now about the international point of view, I
> no longer believe it. Why do Americans not make the association between
> keeping cats indoors all the time and the prevalence of behavioral
> problems among U.S. cats?
I would love to know the answer to this. On these groups we see
hundreds of posts from desperate American cat owners whose cats are
scratching their furniture or continually spraying around the house.
These are *not* happy and contented cats as most of the owners claim.
These are bored and insecure cats, often being forced to vie for
territory with too many others in too small an environment.
In the 30 years I have had indoor/outdoor cats I have never had one
which sprayed. I know nobody else who has had an indoor/outdoor cat
which sprayed. The only cats I have ever known that toileted in the
house I have come across in my rescue work, and they have been cats
which have been badly abused. Toileting problems under those
circumstances are not the same as territorial marking, which is what the
people on these groups complain of. And toileting problems caused by
abuse cease once the cat feels secure in a loving home.
The connection between indoor cats and behavioural problems cannot be
ignored.
> Of course if you live in an apartment in a big city, it's probably
> impossible for you to safely give your cats an outdoor experience. I am
> definitely not an advocate of letting cats run loose in areas where
> they may easily be hit by cars or meet with other dangers.
Nor I, and most people in the UK who live in big city apartments choose
not to have a cat rather than keep it indoors.
> <snip>
> Also, some types of cats are certainly happier than others at being
> cooped up all day.
I wouldn't say that some cats are "happier". I would say that some cats
deal with it better than others.
> If you have the kind of cat that spends most of its
> time sleeping and isn't very adventurous, that cat will adapt better to
> being indoors only than an active, curious cat. That kind of cat has
> another need which isn't on your list: he/she needs to explore.
I believe that a continually sleeping cat isn't an unadventurous cat but
a cat that's bored rigid, and uses sleep to solve that problem. On the
few occasions I have needed to keep one of my cats indoors for a day,
that cat has slept the day away because there's little else to do. Even
the biggest selection of toys and the Buckingham Palace of cat condos
lose their novelty after a while. During the day all my cats are
continually coming in and out through the cat flap, climbing trees and
fences etc. and pursuing all the normal outdoor cat pursuits. During
the day they are very active. Their routine is such that they go out
during the day and stay in at night. They come in for supper and then
they all curl up in their favourite spots and sleep soundly all night.
While I acknowledge that there are a small number of cats that prefer to
stay indoors, I am convinced that while a cat may to a certain extent
adapt it's behaviour to it's circumstances, the vast majority of indoor
cats are frustrated cats, not a happy cats, and that frustration
manifests itself in the behavioural problems we see described in the
posts on these groups.
o...@gci-net.com
<pussido...@catlover.com> wrote:
>Yngver wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>
>> However, having read more now about the international point of view, I
>> no longer believe it. Why do Americans not make the association between
>> keeping cats indoors all the time and the prevalence of behavioral
>> problems among U.S. cats?
>
>I would love to know the answer to this. On these groups we see
>hundreds of posts from desperate American cat owners whose cats are
>scratching their furniture or continually spraying around the house.
>These are *not* happy and contented cats as most of the owners claim.
>These are bored and insecure cats, often being forced to vie for
>territory with too many others in too small an environment.
Anthropomorphising again. How do you know if a cat is bored or
insecure? Happy ot contented? What does it even mean. If you've not
had indoor cats, where do you get even anecdotal results. You're
projecting what you want to believe as fact -- again.
>
>In the 30 years I have had indoor/outdoor cats I have never had one
>which sprayed. I know nobody else who has had an indoor/outdoor cat
>which sprayed.
I can find lots of them for you. They are all over the place here. I
have many friends who have this problem even with neutered cats.
>The only cats I have ever known that toileted in the
>house I have come across in my rescue work, and they have been cats
>which have been badly abused. Toileting problems under those
>circumstances are not the same as territorial marking, which is what the
>people on these groups complain of. And toileting problems caused by
>abuse cease once the cat feels secure in a loving home.
Not always.
>
>The connection between indoor cats and behavioural problems cannot be
>ignored.
Let's just verify it actually exists first. Around here the life
expectancy of an outdoor cat, from birth until it is eaten by coyotes,
is about 1.5 years.
>
>> Of course if you live in an apartment in a big city, it's probably
>> impossible for you to safely give your cats an outdoor experience. I am
>> definitely not an advocate of letting cats run loose in areas where
>> they may easily be hit by cars or meet with other dangers.
>
>Nor I, and most people in the UK who live in big city apartments choose
>not to have a cat rather than keep it indoors.
Right, let it be euthanized rather than give it an indoor home where
it may live 15+ years.
>
>> <snip>
>
>> Also, some types of cats are certainly happier than others at being
>> cooped up all day.
>
>I wouldn't say that some cats are "happier". I would say that some cats
>deal with it better than others.
These are not little furry people. We understand very little about cat
behavior but your position here is at odds with veterinarians and
fline sanctuary alike. I can't find any evidence in the journals or
from the feline centers at the veterinary schools to sustantiate your
hypotheses. Over here in the colonies, where we are apparently morally
inferior and can't psychoanalyze animals, it's hard to adopt a cat
without agreeing to NOT allow it outside, where it is a significant
risk of disease, predators, and motor vehicles.
>
>> If you have the kind of cat that spends most of its
>> time sleeping and isn't very adventurous, that cat will adapt better to
>> being indoors only than an active, curious cat. That kind of cat has
>> another need which isn't on your list: he/she needs to explore.
Cats sleep most of the time because they are cats. Domesticated cats
do this, feral cats do this, lions and tigers do this. The fact that a
cat, when it has decide to move, wants to be on the other side of the
door doesn't mean it wants to go out. It means it is curious. Cats
ALWAYS want to see whats on the other side of the door.
>
>I believe that a continually sleeping cat isn't an unadventurous cat but
>a cat that's bored rigid, and uses sleep to solve that problem. On the
>few occasions I have needed to keep one of my cats indoors for a day,
>that cat has slept the day away because there's little else to do. Even
>the biggest selection of toys and the Buckingham Palace of cat condos
>lose their novelty after a while. During the day all my cats are
>continually coming in and out through the cat flap, climbing trees and
>fences etc. and pursuing all the normal outdoor cat pursuits. During
>the day they are very active. Their routine is such that they go out
>during the day and stay in at night. They come in for supper and then
>they all curl up in their favourite spots and sleep soundly all night.
>
>While I acknowledge that there are a small number of cats that prefer to
>stay indoors, I am convinced that while a cat may to a certain extent
>adapt it's behaviour to it's circumstances, the vast majority of indoor
>cats are frustrated cats, not a happy cats, and that frustration
>manifests itself in the behavioural problems we see described in the
>posts on these groups.
Please explain what it is that convinved you of this. Please also
explain how you know that cats even have the capacity to be
frustrated, happy, bored, etc., and if they do, how do you tell that
they are in these states. And let's not anthropomorphise.
Susie B
>In article <35BCD2A7...@cybersouth.com>,
> Tricia Kirkland <t...@cybersouth.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I live in the country, with 400 acres for the others to roam.
>> That's why I have so many. Most are feral cats that have taken up
>> here. I can't just let them go hungry. I buy two 18lbs bags of
>> cat food, every week, just for them. But, since they are wild, i
>> can't catch them to doctor them. Some of their kittens have
>> colds? , and their eyes get matted. Is there anything I might be
>> able to put in their food to help them?
>
>Tricia,
>Check out Alley Cat Allies (www.alleycat.org)-they have some very
>useful information about caring for ferals. They also sponsor TTVAR
>(trap, test, vaccinate, alter, and release) programs in the US-they
>may be able to guide you to one in your area.
>
>Good luck, and thanks for caring about the cats.
>
>Marca
>
Also try the Feral Cat Coalition http://www.feralcat.com/. Check with
your local shelters (you may have to visit them) they may be able to
put you in touch with a feral cat rescue group. You may be able to
borrow/rent a Hav-a-Hart trap. They may also be able to put you in
touch with local low-cost spay/neuter vets. Here are a couple of
numbers that can put you in touch with low-cost spay neuter in your
area:
Spay/USA office location is Port Washington, NY
800-248-SPAY or 516-883-7575 (from the local area)
and
Friends of Animals office location is Darien, CT
800-321-7387 or 203-656-1522 (from the local area)
Becky
Where I live there are wolves, bears, moose, other wildlife, and heavy
traffic. I would rather keep my "declawed" cats indoors whether they
were clawed or not. Their chance of survival is much higher being
indoors. Besides, I don't believe in cats roaming around where they
don't belong. I have a friend who doesn't have cats, but someone on her
street has one that roams and it craps in her flower garden. There are
leash laws for cats as well as for dogs. Even though I have cats I
wouldn't put up with any cats in my yard nor would many other people
around here.
yngver
Pussido Domingo <pussido...@catlover.com> writes:
> > If you have the kind of cat that spends most of its
> > time sleeping and isn't very adventurous, that cat will adapt better to
> > being indoors only than an active, curious cat. That kind of cat has
> > another need which isn't on your list: he/she needs to explore.
>
> I believe that a continually sleeping cat isn't an unadventurous cat but
> a cat that's bored rigid, and uses sleep to solve that problem. On the
> few occasions I have needed to keep one of my cats indoors for a day,
> that cat has slept the day away because there's little else to do.
While I agree wholeheartedly with most of your post, and I think that
in many cases you are right about this point as well, I just want to
note that we have two cats, one a British shorthair, and I think anyone
who has owned one may attest to the disposition of these cats. She can
go out in the back yard as much as our other cat, but she usually
doesn't want to. She seems to prefer sleeping in the window or watching
our other cat cavort. She does go out in the early evening sometimes to
chase fireflies, but she is certainly not as active or as interested in
new adventures as our other cat. I don't think she is sleeping because
she's bored, because she has just as much opportunity to go out and
explore as does the other cat. (Of course, given her build it's harder
for her to jump or climb on things than it is for the other cat, so
that may be why she seems less adventurous--it's too much work)
But I agree that it's more a case that some cats adapt to being cooped
up better than others, than that they are happy indoors.
yngver
o...@gci-net.com writes:
> your position here is at odds with veterinarians and
> fline sanctuary alike. I can't find any evidence in the journals or
> from the feline centers at the veterinary schools to sustantiate your
> hypotheses.
You should clarify by adding that Pussido Domingo's position is at odds
with U.S. vets. It is certainly not at odds with British vets and
shelters, who agree. I actually first read about the dichotomy between
the way Americans think about keeping cats indoors and the British
opinion that indoors only plus multiple cats equals behavioral problems
in a book by Roger Tabor, a respected British feline behavioralist. So
you are incorrect in stating that there is no support for this
hypothesis.
do...@my-dejanews.com
Pussido Domingo <pussido...@catlover.com> wrote:
> In the 30 years I have had indoor/outdoor cats I have never had one
> which sprayed. I know nobody else who has had an indoor/outdoor cat
> which sprayed.
Max, who was an indoor/outdoor cat, and who was neutered at six months,
sprayed for most of his 13 years. Nothing we tried to change his behavior
worked, and we consulted several vets over a period of many years.
This was in the days before anti-anxiety drugs were prescribed for cats,
and before Feliway. Perhaps those would have helped Max.
I have known other indoor/outdoor cats who sprayed, in spite of neutering
at an appropriate age. In some cases, this might have been due to
urinary tract problems (viral infections, abnormalities of the urethra, etc.)
-one current theory is that these are underdiagnosed,
and can explain some, if not all, spraying behavior. Max's behavior, however,
appeared to be psychological in origin.
My own theory is that he was expressing anxiety about his status as "top
cat" in the neighborhood. While the structure of cat society is not
as strictly hierarchical as that of dog or human society, there do appear
to be some cats who think they should be boss-and who are nervous about
maintaining their status, for reasons of inborn temperament. (Just as
there are some people who are "born leaders", perhaps!)
Max was definitely one
of these-he tended to spray at windows and doors, and various places outdoors,
when he saw other cats in the neighborhood on his "turf". Because of his
behavior, we did not adopt new cats when Toes died (at age 17)-we thought it
would be too stressful for him.
My guess is that some neutered indoor/outdoor cats still do spray-but
it is less noticeable because they take the behavior outdoors primarily,
where the owners might not notice it, or even consider it a problem.
This brings me to some other points. Behavioral problems are, in general,
going to be more noticeable to owners of indoor-only cats than to
those with cats allowed outside. Furthermore, some behaviors are really
normal for cats, but become a problem if they occur indoors (scratching
comes to mind). You could even argue that spraying is a normal behavior
for cats that have a anxious temperament, like Max (much in the way that
finger-tapping and foot-jiggling is normal behavior for people who are
just constitutionally nervous). It was only a problem for us because he
sometimes did it inside. Thus, it may not be
that there are actually more behavioral problems in indoor-only cats,
just that there are more PERCEIVED behavioral problems.
This, in itself, can be used as an argument for allowing cats some outdoor
access-but really more for the relief of the owner than for the cat!
Finally, I am constantly surprised by the references in this newsgroup
to keeping cats indoors as a solely American practice. This has not
been my experience. I was born in the Netherlands, grew up in suburban
Philadelphia, and now live in a suburban area near San Francisco. In
between, I have lived many places on the West and East coasts-primarily
in suburban areas. In all of those places, I saw owned cats outside.
When I was growing up, our cats went outside, and our cats go outside
now-in a neighborhood full of owned indoor/outdoor cats. Granted, these
have been fairly safe places for cats, with little traffic or other dangers,
and the cats, by and large, have done well.
It has always
been my impression that indoor-only cats were an urban phenomenon-
I have met indoor cats in cities in the US, as well as in Sweden and
the Netherlands. An article I found in the library entitled "Housing
conditions and behavioral problems of indoor cats as assessed by their
Owners" by Eva Heidenberger, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 52, (1997)
345-364 (I'm lucky enough to work near the University of California
at Berkeley, and can get all sorts of obscure articles!) states that
25% of owned cats in Germany are kept exclusively indoors-primarily city cats.
(Sorry, no statistics on the UK or US). While you may argue that it
is inhumane to keep cats in the city, where there is no appropriate
outdoor access-people do so all over the world, not only in the US.
Now, I am inclined to argue in favor of giving cats some outdoor time, and I
am lucky enough to live in an area where I can safely do so. However, there
is a tendency towards increasing urbanization, not only in the US, but all
over the world. In some cases, people have moved to a quiet neighborhood in
what they thought was the countryside, only to have the city encroach upon
it. What they thought was a safe environment for their cats becomes more
dangerous with the increased development and traffic. It might not be
practical to move, and the owners may not be willing to give up their beloved
pets (who can blame them?) There is, for example, several housing tracts
going in near my neighborhood, and our community is discussing the best way
to handle the increased traffic. Luckily, our street is unappealing for
through traffic-so I can still let Mini and Denali outside without undue
fear. However, I might have to change my strategy if the growth here
continues, and I do not want to give them away-I think they are better off
with me than given up for adoption.
For that reason, I am not willing to condemn an inside-only
life for a cat as unacceptable. I do think that the owners of indoor-only
cats do need to make an effort to prevent boredom in their cats and to
provide for their needs as best as possible-just as indoor/outdoor cat
owners need to be cognizant of dangers to their cats outdoors.
jcs
> Yngver wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > However, having read more now about the international point of view, I
> > no longer believe it. Why do Americans not make the association between
> > keeping cats indoors all the time and the prevalence of behavioral
> > problems among U.S. cats?
>
> I would love to know the answer to this. On these groups we see
> hundreds of posts from desperate American cat owners whose cats are
> scratching their furniture or continually spraying around the house.
> These are *not* happy and contented cats as most of the owners claim.
> These are bored and insecure cats, often being forced to vie for
> territory with too many others in too small an environment.
>
> In the 30 years I have had indoor/outdoor cats I have never had one
> which sprayed. I know nobody else who has had an indoor/outdoor cat
> which sprayed. The only cats I have ever known that toileted in the
> house I have come across in my rescue work, and they have been cats
> which have been badly abused. Toileting problems under those
> circumstances are not the same as territorial marking, which is what the
> people on these groups complain of. And toileting problems caused by
> abuse cease once the cat feels secure in a loving home.
>
> The connection between indoor cats and behavioural problems cannot be
> ignored.
>
When my male alpha was an indoor-outdoor cat he sprayed in the house
constantly, almost to the point where i wanted to find him another home,
or medicate him. Instead, we bought a house and moved away. The
neighborhood we live in is full of loose and vicious dogs and owners of
the same ilk. The cats now all live inside. No spraying. Cats have
territory issues whether they are inside or outside cats. At least that
has been my experience.
Jenna
yngver
do...@my-dejanews.com writes:
Thank you for a well reasoned post. I am basically in agreement. I do
not think it is inhumane to keep cats in the city, and apartment
dwellers have little choice but keep their cats inside all the time.
However, I think that cat owners need to be aware that if you take a
few cats, coop them up in a small apartment, and then spend little time
with them because of your work and social schedule, you are asking for
trouble. It should not be a surprise that so many cats in these
conditions develop behaviors that distress their owners.
>
> Now, I am inclined to argue in favor of giving cats some outdoor time, and I
> am lucky enough to live in an area where I can safely do so. However, there
> is a tendency towards increasing urbanization, not only in the US, but all
> over the world. In some cases, people have moved to a quiet neighborhood in
> what they thought was the countryside, only to have the city encroach upon
> it. What they thought was a safe environment for their cats becomes more
> dangerous with the increased development and traffic. It might not be
> practical to move, and the owners may not be willing to give up their beloved
> pets (who can blame them?) There is, for example, several housing tracts
> going in near my neighborhood, and our community is discussing the best way
> to handle the increased traffic. Luckily, our street is unappealing for
> through traffic-so I can still let Mini and Denali outside without undue
> fear. However, I might have to change my strategy if the growth here
> continues, and I do not want to give them away-I think they are better off
> with me than given up for adoption.
>
> For that reason, I am not willing to condemn an inside-only
> life for a cat as unacceptable. I do think that the owners of indoor-only
> cats do need to make an effort to prevent boredom in their cats and to
> provide for their needs as best as possible-just as indoor/outdoor cat
> owners need to be cognizant of dangers to their cats outdoors.
I also do not think inside-only is an unacceptable life for a cat, but
I take issue with the argument so often put forth, especially in the
U.S. it seems, that all cats are better off being indoors only. In my
opinion, indoors only is not ideal. I do think cats can adapt well to
an indoors only life, but owners should be far more concerned about
providing stimulation for these cats than many of them are.
I also think that many owners are not aware that cats can often be
trained to harness and leash. Taking cats for outdoor adventures (I
have taken mine to forest preserves and parks for walks) can go a long
way toward alleviating the boredom of indoors cats.
For five years my husband and I were catless because I did not think it
was fair to a cat to keep one in the small apartment we were living in,
where all it could do all day is look out the window at another
building. We waited until we got a house with a yard. I am not
advocating that apartment dwellers go catless as we did, but I do think
that if a person's lifestyle is such that he/she lives in a studio
apartment in a busy urban area, works long hours and then goes out with
friends, travels a lot and is seldom at home, that person should really
think twice about getting a cat or two.
o...@gci-net.com
Especially since giving them up for adoption usually leads to
euthanization for most cats. And life in a no-kill shelter varies
greatly depending on the shelter. Older cats usually end up as lifers
there too.
There are dangers lurking outside other than traffic as well -
predators, including human ones, and contagious diseases from other
cats. But the decision is still yours like so many that we make about
our cats. Thank you for bringing some reasonable additions to this
subject.
V & H SIMMONS
ing...@aol.com (yngver) wrote:
snippity....
>For five years my husband and I were catless because I did not think it
>was fair to a cat to keep one in the small apartment we were living in,
>where all it could do all day is look out the window at another
>building. We waited until we got a house with a yard. I am not
>advocating that apartment dwellers go catless as we did, but I do think
>that if a person's lifestyle is such that he/she lives in a studio
>apartment in a busy urban area, works long hours and then goes out with
>friends, travels a lot and is seldom at home, that person should really
>think twice about getting a cat or two.
>
>-yngver
>(to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
A *very* sensible post.
Hugs, Helen S
C&M Towle
Very much agree with Marca's post below. It is much too
simplistic to suggest that indoor cats = caged cats/problem
cats/unhappy cats. There are so many variables which have to
be taken into account that this equation is meaningless.
Responsible, compassionate, and caring cat ownership can
provide indoor-only cats with wonderful homes and
companionship. What many people don't realize is that
indoor-only cats require much more in terms of the provision
of a stimulating environment, much more play time, attention
etc. Owners of indoor/outdoor cats do not have the monopoly on
responsible and caring ownership. There are owners of
indoor/outdoor cats who neglect their cats and there are
owners of indoor-only cats who neglect their cats. Many
indoor/outdoor cat owners don't have litter boxes in the house
and wouldn't have a clue whether their cats have urinary tract
infections or diarrhoea. Many indoor-only cat owners don't
keep their litter boxes clean and get exasperated when
problems occur. Irresponsible owners are to be found
everywhere and to suggest that all those who keep cats indoors
are animal abusers, without taking all variables into account,
is nonsense.
Monica
do...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6pl4ft$cat$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>snipped>
<snipped>Pussido Doming wrote:
I would love to know the answer to this. On these groups we
see
hundreds of posts from desperate American cat owners whose
cats are
scratching their furniture or continually spraying around the
house.
These are *not* happy and contented cats as most of the owners
claim.
These are bored and insecure cats, often being forced to vie
for
territory with too many others in too small an environment.
In the 30 years I have had indoor/outdoor cats I have never
had one
which sprayed. I know nobody else who has had an
indoor/outdoor cat
which sprayed. The only cats I have ever known that toileted
in the
house I have come across in my rescue work, and they have been
cats
which have been badly abused. Toileting problems under those
circumstances are not the same as territorial marking, which
is what the
people on these groups complain of. And toileting problems
caused by
abuse cease once the cat feels secure in a loving home.
The connection between indoor cats and behavioural problems
cannot be
ignored.
<snipped>and most people in the UK who live in big city
apartments choose
not to have a cat rather than keep it indoors.
I wouldn't say that some cats are "happier". I would say that
some cats
deal with it better than others.
I believe that a continually sleeping cat isn't an
unadventurous cat but
a cat that's bored rigid, and uses sleep to solve that
problem. On the
few occasions I have needed to keep one of my cats indoors for
a day,
that cat has slept the day away because there's little else to
Maryanne & Puck
> Irresponsible owners are to be found
> everywhere and to suggest that all those who keep cats indoors
> are animal abusers, without taking all variables into account,
> is nonsense.
Very very true. And I would also like to point out that the reverse
is equally valid - to suggest that all those who let their cats
outside are animal abusers, without taking all variables into
account, is just as ridiculous.
Maryanne
reeling in shock at seeing reasonable, calm debate on the
indoor-outdoor issue. What is the net coming to..... :) :)
o...@my-dejanews.com
ing...@aol.com (yngver) wrote:
> In article <35b8d341...@news.gci-net.com>
> o...@gci-net.com writes:
>
> > And what's the problem with adopting
> > a declawed cat?
>
> It's simple. I believe declawing is cruel and damages a cat both
> physically and psychologically. As I said, the cats I've known who've
> been declawed have exhibited neuroses due to their lack of claws.
Couldn't be that you are biased toward this conclusion. I have seen hundreds
of cats that would be classified as biters, and most had claws. I'm not even
sure what a neurosis means for a cat. Or are we anthropomorphising?
> Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
> the only person who feels this way.
Actually, declawed cats are in high demand at the shelters. But I still don't
understand why you would punish an otherwise fine cat for not having claws? I
have three declawed cats (and some more with claws) that I adopted because
they had other problems so were not in demand (they were older, had kidney
problems, very skittish). They are wonderful cats that you couldn't tell were
declawed based on behavior. This is what the studies show as well.
> I have not seen the studies you mention, so perhaps you can give an
> indication as to where to find them. The articles I've read written by
> vets have indicated behavioral problems associated with declawing
> (recently there was a column on this in Tufts' newsletter) but they did
> not cite studies, so I assume what I've read has only been the personal
> observations of individual vets.
Vets may be sympathetic, caring, wonderful people, but they are not generally
trained in medical research. Some are, but it is in addition to usual vet
training. They, like everyone else, are entitled to opinions, but that doesn't
make their opinions valid research results. Vets can suffer the same biases as
anyone else.
Look at Veterinary Medicine/February 1998, pp.173-179: Preventing furniture
scratching and inappropriate play in cats - and the references therein. Also,
the article Claws and Effect in Catnip, the Tufts University School of
Veterinary Medicine Newletter for Cat Owners, December 1994 issue, is a good
reference for this topic.
Notice that unlike the references usually given on this NG to articles by
vets against declawing, that these articles take no advocacy position. They
do note that declawing is a last resort and that other behavior modification
methods should be exhausted first, if they have any advice at all. SOme are
simply stuy results.
> -yngver
> (to reply, change initial "i" to "y")
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
yngver
o...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Couldn't be that you are biased toward this conclusion. I have seen hundreds
> of cats that would be classified as biters, and most had claws.
The cats I have in mind did not become biters until after they were
declawed, thus it's reasonable for me to suspect that there is a
relationship. Certainly there are plenty of cats with claws who also
bite, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the point of the
matter.
I'm not even
> sure what a neurosis means for a cat. Or are we anthropomorphising?
I'm sure most people understand what I mean by neurotic behavior in
cats. You seem to like to accuse many people of anthromorphising as if
it were a bad thing. IMHO better understanding of our pets and other
animals is in order, no matter on what level. I do not see how people
can really relate to animals at all if they don't anthromorphise to a
degree. If picturing how they would feel in the animal's place is what
it takes to promote compassion and more understanding, I see nothing
wrong with it.
>
> > Because of this, I would not adopt a declawed cat, and I'm sure I'm not
> > the only person who feels this way.
>
> Actually, declawed cats are in high demand at the shelters.
I know, which in itself is a good enough reason for me to choose a
clawed cat instead.
But I still don't
> understand why you would punish an otherwise fine cat for not having claws?
Since you point out that declawed cats are in demand, I am hardly
punishing one by choosing a clawed cat that is presumably in less
demand. My preference will always be for a cat with claws.
> have three declawed cats (and some more with claws) that I adopted because
> they had other problems so were not in demand (they were older, had kidney
> problems, very skittish). They are wonderful cats that you couldn't tell were
> declawed based on behavior. This is what the studies show as well.
>
> > I have not seen the studies you mention, so perhaps you can give an
> > indication as to where to find them. The articles I've read written by
> > vets have indicated behavioral problems associated with declawing
> > (recently there was a column on this in Tufts' newsletter) but they did
> > not cite studies, so I assume what I've read has only been the personal
> > observations of individual vets.
>
> Vets may be sympathetic, caring, wonderful people, but they are not generally
> trained in medical research. Some are, but it is in addition to usual vet
> training. They, like everyone else, are entitled to opinions, but that doesn't
> make their opinions valid research results. Vets can suffer the same biases as
> anyone else.
>
>
> Look at Veterinary Medicine/February 1998, pp.173-179: Preventing furniture
> scratching and inappropriate play in cats - and the references therein. Also,
> the article Claws and Effect in Catnip, the Tufts University School of
> Veterinary Medicine Newletter for Cat Owners, December 1994 issue, is a good
> reference for this topic.
I look forward to reading these articles if I can find them. Yet more
recent articles in Tufts same newsletter, which I only started to
subscribe to in the last few months, seem to contradict what you are
saying.
>
> Notice that unlike the references usually given on this NG to articles by
> vets against declawing, that these articles take no advocacy position. They
> do note that declawing is a last resort and that other behavior modification
> methods should be exhausted first,
This sounds like an advocacy position to me. Why do they consider
declawing a last resort if their studies show it has no negative
effects on a cat?
if they have any advice at all. SOme are
> simply stuy results.
>
My real objection is the way declawing is often thought of as just
something you automatically do when you get a cat. Many people do not
declaw as a last resort, they do it without thinking. If declawing
really were only performed as a last resort in this country, you would
see a lot fewer objections to it on this ng.
-yngver
Eva Quesnell
<snipped just a tad>
> I'm sure most people understand what I mean by neurotic behavior in
> cats. You seem to like to accuse many people of anthromorphising as if
> it were a bad thing. IMHO better understanding of our pets and other
> animals is in order, no matter on what level. I do not see how people
> can really relate to animals at all if they don't anthromorphise to a
> degree. If picturing how they would feel in the animal's place is what
> it takes to promote compassion and more understanding, I see nothing
> wrong with it.
I agree completely. If people want to care for their pets properly, they
must try to imagine how the animal is feeling by judging its behavior and
comparing it to their own. If the people who let their kitten's neck
"explode" had tried this, maybe the poor little kitten wouldn't have
suffered so long. Instead of going off to sleep while the kitten was
wretching and gagging, the woman could have been trying to empathize with
how the kitten must be feeling. Then maybe she would have realized it was
time to take the kitten to the vet.
Eva & Chick & Mickey
(and their d*gs)
yngver
Eva Quesnell <eque...@unm.edu> writes:
> If the people who let their kitten's neck
> "explode" had tried this, maybe the poor little kitten wouldn't have
> suffered so long. Instead of going off to sleep while the kitten was
> wretching and gagging, the woman could have been trying to empathize with
> how the kitten must be feeling. Then maybe she would have realized it was
> time to take the kitten to the vet.
I just hope that story isn't true, is just a troll. It's one of the
saddest I've seen in awhile. I was shocked to read that her husband
"got rid" of the kitten before she got home; I don't even want to
imagine what that means.
Eva Quesnell
It did smell like troll to me, too. I hope that's all it was. I just
can't imagine drifting off to sleep with one of my babies being very sick.
I'd be up all night worrying and would be at the vet's first thing the
next morning (or in the middle of the night if need be).