Clipping the wings is wrong
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496
I'm rather upset about the clipping of the bird's wings. This is I suppose
done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
So if you have a baby, would you "clip" his/her legs for the same reason ?
No, you are carefull, and look after the infant that no harm is done.
So, is it so, that people are so lazy, that they prefer to make the bird
cripple, than be carefull ?
I think that the wing clipping is a maltreatment, that should be prosecuted.
Timo
Tim Perry
> Timo
My tiel has climbed up and down the side of his cage and cought a long blood feather
between the bars, and he nearly bled to death twice. He isnt graceful enough to fly
around indoors without hitting things and hurting himself or getting into someting
he shouldnt, or knocked unconscious.
Now he is clipped and perfectly content to hippity hop around. That little dude
can run like you wouldnt believe too. Now therewill be no more episodes of having
to pull a f**ked up feather and trim skin with scissors and bleed all over the place.
He has been clipped for about 2 months now and the problem for him and me are
in place now. I can do the trim myself and im very good at it and he doesnt even
mind it.
Cruel or concerned?
Yours truly,
NotLazy
Cathy Quinones
>Hi,
>
>I'm rather upset about the clipping of the bird's wings. This is I suppose
>done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
Wrong. It is done to prevent the bird from flying into a mirror or glass
window and hurting itself (stunning itself, breaking its neck are possible
outcomes). Any bird, no matter how tame, can get freaked out and accidentally
fly into a solid object, no matter how easily it may evade it under normal
circumstances. Clipping is also useful for birds showing excessive
aggression.
It is also done to cut down the chance of having the bird escape. The average
pet bird will not know how to survive in the wild, and most likely soon die
of exposure, disease, or predation. If I am reading the header right, you
are posting from Finland... what's the chance of an escaped parrot surviving
in the wild in your country? Some birds may manage for a while in milder
climates, some may even become established and breed, but those are the
exceptions... not to mention their adapting to the wild may wreak havoc
upon native species.
>
>So if you have a baby, would you "clip" his/her legs for the same reason ?
This is an extremely faulty analogy. Feathers are like hair, read DEAD
tissue. They can regrow (as opposed to the inability of humans to regenerate
lost limbs). When feathers are cut the bird does not experience pain,
as opposed to amputation. Finally, birds with clipped wings (depending
on the clip) can still glide and even fly a bit, not to mention walk.
Bird do use their feet in the wild for locomotion, in case you didn't know.
There are also flightless birds that survive just fine (through million of
years of evolutionary history) without the capacity to fly.
>No, you are carefull, and look after the infant that no harm is done.
And still kids get run over by cars, fall off their bikes and trees,
and suffer damage, not to mention death. I guess you advocate stashing
a fully flighted bird into a cage and keeping it safe and sound that
way, possibly after welding the cage shut? After all, any time you let
this bird out you could possibly endanger its life.
>So, is it so, that people are so lazy, that they prefer to make the bird
>cripple, than be carefull ?
No, it is that people have given careful thought to the situation and have
come to think that in many cases the only responsible thing to do is to clip
a bird's wings. You obviously have no idea of how much love, time and money
lots of people dedicate to their pet birds. You have no clue of how many
hours some birds spend ouside of their cages, in circumstances where a clipped
bird is safe and where a fully flighted bird would be a hazard to itself.
>I think that the wing clipping is a maltreatment, that should be prosecuted.
>
>Timo
I think you need to get a clue, not to mention some manners.
I am hoping this post was the result of someone leaving their terminal
unattended. Obviously there's always room to debate clipping vs. not
clipping, but this character's attitude strikes me as annoying as hell...
Eric Hill
>done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
So, Timo, have you ever seen a bird run into a closed window? It's not very
nice; birds often die from flying into windows. What about a handfed pet
that has spent it's entire life in the presence of humans. If that bird
escapes and isn't found by a caring person, it *will* starve. My bird, Max,
escaped a month or two ago, his wings hadn't been clipped recently. I had
no clue that he was upset, until he flew off a friends shoulder into the night.
LA is a big place, Timo, I was so worried about Max. I realized that I might
never see him again, but I didn't care about that so much, I just wanted him
to be safe. Luckily, several days later he was found by about a half mile
away. He acted like he hadn't eaten in a week, I think that he hadn't. My
point is that ost of these clipped birds are pets, they don'y know anything
else, so they are clipped for their own protection. I don't intend to ever
let Max 'escape' again, because I care about him.
>No, you are carefull, and look after the infant that no harm is done.
>So, is it so, that people are so lazy, that they prefer to make the bird
>cripple, than be carefull ?
Do you not understand what it means to clip a bird's wings? No permentent
disfigurement results. Wing 'clipping' is simply the shortening of a birds
primary feathers, the first ten or so on the end of the wing. No bones are
cut. The birds skin is not broken. Only the feathers are cut, and Timo,
feathers grow back. I admit that a wing clipping is more serious than a hair
cut, but by the same token I would not liken it to the baby gimping metaphor
which you so naively used.
Timo, the people on this group care about their birds, and they clip their
wings because they care. I suggest that you find a better cause in life than
badgering consciencious pet owners. Maybe 'brutatlity' in the cattle industry,
or I could tell you some good stories about what they do to spent thoroghbred
horses, just leave these nice people alone, they don't deserve your crap.
--Eric S. Hill
thef...@cco.caltech.edu
CSS Sue
(TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496)
writes:
"I'm rather upset about the clipping of the bird's wings. This is I
suppose
done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally
escape."
No, this is done to protect the bird. When a bird is flighted, there
are too many possibilities for accidents. Birds tend to fly into
windows, mirrors, sometimes even walls. They can fly faster than
their owners can walk, so comparing them to babies just doesn't work.
Babies crawl around on the ground, v-e-r-y slowly. Birds fly through
the air and land where people can't reach them.
There are other issues, too. I had a flighted budgie that destroyed
the tops of all my drapes. I had another one who kept landing behind
furniture that was difficult to move. By the time I got him out, he
was panting and terrified.
It's important to do what is best for the bird, and that includes
what is safest. All of my birds have their wings clipped. I have
ladders all over the house, a four-foot manzinita tree, three
playpens - so they have a way to get around, and things to do. And I
don't have to worry about them getting stuck behind the refrigerator!
Michele Goddard
>I'm rather upset about the clipping of the bird's wings. This is I suppose
>done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
>
>So if you have a baby, would you "clip" his/her legs for the same reason ?
>
after and catch up to a baby. I cannot fly.
Michele Lyons
Steven P. Thompson
It seems to me that this article was obviously posted to start a flame
of this, oh say, 1000 times, that might be cool.
We all know the benefits of wing clipping and I would urge you to not
give this poster the satisfaction of getting a major reaction out of us. This
is such a pleasant group, let's keep it that way.
THANX :-)
~Steve
Dawn Bustanoby
To all of you who were offended by this posting, I think the poster in all
likelihood is not a bird owner, did not intend to tick people off, but is simplyignorant. Many of my non-bird friends think the same thing until they
understand the reasons (we all know what they are). Let's not let this turn
into a 10 posts a day thread. This is such a friendly group; let's keep it
that way!
Dawn
Seattle, Wa
Joe Salemi
In article <1994Jun23.145457.1@tnclus>, TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 (auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi) writes:
>I'm rather upset about the clipping of the bird's wings. This is I suppose
>done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
>
>cripple, than be carefull ?
>
>I think that the wing clipping is a maltreatment, that should be prosecuted.
>
I'm sure you're going to get a lot of responses on this one, but there
is NOTHING about clipping a birds wings that is in any way
maltreatment or cruel. If it were, then avian vets and bird trainers
wouldn't recommend it.
Birds don't have any feeling in the parts of the feathers that are
clipped, so they don't get hurt by the clipping. And they can still
fly, just not long distances or gain much altitude, so it doesn't make
the bird "a cripple." It also makes the bird more interested in its
human companions (and somewhat dependant on them), and easier to train
so it doesn't get into trouble in the future.
It has nothing to do with lazyness; have you ever seen how fast a bird
can fly? Have you ever chased a bird around the house, or seen one hit a
mirror or window so hard it broke its neck? Or landed someplace
dangerous (a hot stove, boiling water, the toilet bowl) and died?
A bird is not a human baby -- it's a pet that's dependant on us for its
well-being. And part of that dependence means our taking
responsibility for keeping it out of trouble. Clipping a dogs wings
is no more maltreatment than having a pet dog neutered.
----------
Joe Salemi, KR4CZ Internet: jsa...@doghouse.win.net
Compuserve: 72631,23 FidoNet: 1:109/136 MCI Mail: 433-3961
Dana of Sally & Dana
Dodger (TAG) is making his own phrases in English now. Of course he
is learning the words that strikes his fancy and not necessarily the
ones we want him to learn. He says, "step up" because we use the
step up command and when we walk out of a room he says, "Be right
back", also when he sees us getting ready to go to work in the morning
we get a series of "Bye Byes". Sally calls him little goose and one
day he started saying, "little goose," later that day he was saying
"little goose" over and over then said, "goose step." using step from
step up. I started to teach him animal sounds like you teach a kid.
You know, like what does a dog say? Ruff. What does a cow say? Moo
What does a cat say? Meow. I was doing the dog thing a couple of
weeks and then added, what does a pig say? He loved, "Oink, Oink" and
said that after hearing it after a day or two. He only made the dog
sound after a month and a half and then only rarely. He likes "Meow"
and what Sally asked him, what does a parrot say he said, "Hello!"
In a couple of days Sally got him to make the chicken sound, "Buck,
buck, bugguck!" So now we have a Timneh walking around doing "Oink,
oink, buck buck bugguck!" Over the memorial day weekend we drove out
to Phoenix, AZ to visit my mother on the way back I let my heavy foot
get the better of me and we got stopped by the Highway Patrol just
outside of Indio. The trooper was pretty nice about it even though
I got the ticket, but he kept looking at the cages in the back seat
where Dodger and Ridley (Budgie) were saftey belted. I was very
happy the Dodger didn't say, "Oink, oink, goose step, goose step!"
Regards,
Dana
Philip F. Wight
you have never had anything to do with birds as a pet. One simple
example from my "past" should be sdufficient. About 27 years ago I
brought home my first macaw. When we entered the house I thought
it would be fun to see the bird in flight, so I released him in the
living room. If you have never stood below a macaw trying to fly
ina small room you have no idea the power they generate. I have
felt similar breeezes generated by helicopters. Well, the bird
bounced off a couple of wells then flew to the highest point in the
room and attempted to land on top of a globe on the top of my
bookshelf. The globe, of course, rotated and dumped the poor bird
on the floor. There I recovered him. He had broken one wing and
had busted a pin feather in the other wing, and there I was, a
neophyte, trying to stop the blood flow from bboth wounds. It was
a stupid blunder and I have made sure, for the health and safety of
my birds, to keep them trimmed, because I don't believe in cages
for large birds - I believe in the freedom of a perch. If you keep
a large, intelligent bird in a cage for years, his entire world is
bounded by those bars and after awhile he loses interest in
anything outside the cage. On the other hand, a bird on a perch
knows the entire room, or house, as his world and he takes more of
an interest in everyone and everything around him.
OK, I'll get down from the soapbox. I respectfully submit that you
know nothing about which you speak.
Cheers,
Phil
---------------------------------
--
Philip F. Wight <pwi...@rahul.net>
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496
Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
The most naive pro wing clipping argument I have seen is that the wing
clipping is like a haircut and the feathers grow back. But then the wings
are again cut. Denying the most important and enjoyable capability (for a
bird), the ability to fly, for the life.
Timo
Cathy Quinones
>In article <2ugood$i...@news.u.washington.edu>, daw...@u.washington.edu (Dawn Bustanoby) writes:
>
>> To all of you who were offended by this posting, I think the poster in all
>> likelihood is not a bird owner, did not intend to tick people off, but is simplyignorant. Many of my non-bird friends think the same thing until they
>> understand the reasons (we all know what they are). Let's not let this turn
>> into a 10 posts a day thread. This is such a friendly group; let's keep it
>> that way! Dawn
>
>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
>quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
This is your choice, but assuming your house has windows or doors, one could
fly off and you would have to deal with the consequences.
Besides, frankly, how can you state that your birds are happy? By the same
authority, those of us who have clipped birds can say the same thing about
our clipped pets. I think it takes more than flying to make a happy bird,
and conversely, flightlessnes doesn't negate happiness.
>I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
>clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
Like I said before, I personally would feel guilty if one of my birds
flew off to a likely death by starvation or predation, or broke its neck
by flying into a window or mirror or wall.
Besides, let's define "basic": it means something that is strictly necessary.
A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water dish/toys
is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it engages in
flapping which most birds do).
>The most naive pro wing clipping argument I have seen is that the wing
>clipping is like a haircut and the feathers grow back. But then the wings
>are again cut. Denying the most important and enjoyable capability (for a
>bird), the ability to fly, for the life.
>
>Timo
Well, Timo, I guess you have a direct line to your birds' brains (not to
mention those of other peoples') and can ascertain happines is solely
determined by ability to fly.
As to "the ability to fly, for their life," this doesn't apply to those of
us who keep our houses free of potential bird predators!!!! That, in my
opinion, *is* the most naive anti-wing clipping argument. I've seen
the neighbor's cat take songbirds right off our lawn, and we are talking
about birds who were wild, used to living in the wild, with senses
supposedly honed to predator evasion. My 'tiel wouldn't stand a chance,
he sees a cat and he wants to go sing to it...
This argument grows tiresome. If you think you can keep your birds safe
and flighted, do so, but don't assume that by doing not clipping you are
protecting them from predators or household threats 100%. If you would
rather not learn from the experiences of others, that's your prerogative.
Just don't go making accusations about "cruelty" when you have no proof
whatsoever that clipped birds are psychologically damaged or in pain or
unhappy. Next time you read a kiwi's mind, or mind-link with an ostrich,
and they convey the message that they do feel like lesser citizens of the
class Aves because they are physically incapable of flight we can talk about
this so-called cruelty.
-B.LING
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 <auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi> wrote:
->
->Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
->quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
->
->I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
->clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
->
->The most naive pro wing clipping argument I have seen is that the wing
->clipping is like a haircut and the feathers grow back. But then the wings
->are again cut. Denying the most important and enjoyable capability (for a
->bird), the ability to fly, for the life.
well, i would say that is your perogative as a bird owner, and i
hope you never lose one of your birdies due to an accident. shall
we agree that we disagree, and leave it at that?
my hubby also loved having his maroonBellied conure, darry, free-flighted
around the house - darry would zoom all around the basement and land
in rather interesting areas. alas, one day his son left the door open
when the birdie was in the vicinity, and bye bye birdie it was
(in Feb (ie winter)) at that.
luckily, darry did return the following day! which was wonderful news
indeed. by this time, angus (my ycm) was a regular visitor to the house,
and darry enjoyed trying to devil this birdie when he was in his cage.
(oldtimers, you know what's coming). and one day last year, darry
flew to the top of angus's cage, and angus grabbed him by the beak
and fractured off the lower mandible. darry is now the halfBeaked
birdie (i gave him to the vet who tried saving his lower beak to
no avail). as it turns out, darry has adapted to his new way of life
wonderfully, and continually amazes both the staff/visitors/etc.
with his spunk and verve.
so it's a gamble, and a risk. who'd have thought this would happen?
live and learn.
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% The Linguistic Tongue, AT&T %% C Code. C Code Run. Run, Code, RUN! %%
%% b...@hogpf.att.com %% PLEASE!!!! %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Tom Deering
: done solely for the reason that the bird does not accidentally escape.
: So if you have a baby, would you "clip" his/her legs for the same reason ?
This is BAIT. A thirteen-year old's idea of fun.
Ignore him.
C Brehm
(TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496)
writes:
>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's.
They are
quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
>I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion
away, by
clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
One of these days you will regret not clipping thier wings when;
1. One flies into a window or mirror and breaks it neck.
2. Lands in the ceiling fan.
3. lands in the frying pan or pot and burns to death.
The only birds I do not clip wings are are my breader that never
leave the cage unless I have a firm hold on them. But all of our
Companion birds are clipped and are much safer for it.
Thanks
Carl
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496
> In article <1994Jun26.103830.1@tnclus> auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi (TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496) writes:
> This is your choice, but assuming your house has windows or doors, one could
> fly off and you would have to deal with the consequences.
We have had birds about 2 year now. Actually, one of our tiel
accidentally got away. We had to organize a large qroup to seach him,
it took a long day. Lukily, and perhaps with a litle help from above,
we were able to find him. This was 1,5 years ago. We learned our
lesson with that incidense.
We now conduct strict rules with the outdoor and windows. We have
added security features to them too. There is no possibility for
accidental escape.
Birds seem to learn to fly inhouse very well. They do not fly
toward mirrors or windows. At least our's do not.
> Besides, frankly, how can you state that your birds are happy?
Frankly, would you be happy, if you would lose your ability to walk ?
Please do think about it. You could still move in a wheelchair...
> flightlessnes doesn't negate happiness.
So, you would be happy, sitting in a wheelchair day after day ?
> A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water dish/toys
> is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it engages in
> flapping which most birds do).
Yes, but it is invalid, just like you would be in a wheelchair.
> Just don't go making accusations about "cruelty" when you have no proof
> whatsoever that clipped birds are psychologically damaged or in pain or
> unhappy.
As you may know, there is currently no way to aquire proof about
the thoughts of animals. By following your rule, the world would be
rather miserable place for animals.
By denying bird's ability to fly, does not certainly (by common
sense) make the bird happier. So only the cases unchanged and
unhappier are available. Then, applying some comparison, you can
easlily conclude, that the bird will be unhappier.
And, if you allow your birds to fly, they will show you.
Timo
Joe Salemi
In article <1994Jun26.103830.1@tnclus>, TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 (auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi) writes:
>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
>quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
Then you are quite lucky that nothing has happened to them yet.
>
>I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
>clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
And the vast majority of the avian experts disagree with you. I'd
trust them.
>The most naive pro wing clipping argument I have seen is that the wing
>clipping is like a haircut and the feathers grow back. But then the wings
>are again cut. Denying the most important and enjoyable capability (for a
>bird), the ability to fly, for the life.
>
How about replacing that activity with others? Birds in the parrot
family enjoy climbing just as much, and are quite happy doing so. And
there are ways a bird can get "flying" exercise without being fully
flighted. I've heard too many horror stories of bad things happening
to fully flighted pet birds to ever want one of them to happen to my
little friend. You may believe what you wish, but I'll follow the
advice of those who know what they're talking about and keep my bird
clipped.
Renee M Lester
unless you have a large aviary in which they can fly free.
There are just too many dangers to them if they cam fly
around the house. You clip your bird's wings for the same
reason you fence your dog in the yard or keep your cat
indoors instead of letting them roam... or forbid your
kids to play in the street... to *protect* them.
My birds have a swiveling, spiral, rope covered perch/toy
hanging from the living room ceiling. Even with their
wings clipped they can flap around holding onto it, "flying"
around in noisy circles. They get *plenty* of exercise.
If you want, I'll describe how I made it...
-Demetrius
Leonhard Scheiber
> From: quin...@orchid.UCSC.EDU (Cathy Quinones)
> In article <1994Jun26.103830.1@tnclus> auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi (TIMO
> AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496) writes:
>>In article <2ugood$i...@news.u.washington.edu>, daw...@u.washington.edu
>>(Dawn Bustanoby) writes:
>>> To all of you who were offended by this posting, I think the poster in
>>> all likelihood is not a bird owner, did not intend to tick people off,
>>> but is simplyignorant. Many of my non-bird friends think the same thing
>>> until they understand the reasons (we all know what they are). Let's not
>>> let this turn into a 10 posts a day thread. This is such a friendly
>>> group; let's keep it that way! Dawn
>>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
>>quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
> This is your choice, but assuming your house has windows or doors, one
> could fly off and you would have to deal with the consequences.
I have had my rosella's wings clipped and she can still fly. At times I even
get the impression she can fly better than before.
> Besides, frankly, how can you state that your birds are happy? By the
> same authority, those of us who have clipped birds can say the same thing
> about our clipped pets. I think it takes more than flying to make a happy
> bird, and conversely, flightlessnes doesn't negate happiness.
Nope. I guess it depends on what bird you own. Apart from my rosella I have a
[don't know what it's called in English; he's all green with a dark red spot on
his forehead and comes from New Zealand] bird who LOVES to fly. I mean he
REALLY loves to fly. He can fly like a rocket. I would most certainly not feel
very comfortable at having his wings clipped. This would be utterly cruel.
On the other hand my vet told me that this bird NEEDS to fly because he likes
to eat all day and if he doesn't get enough exercise he will die.
>>I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
>>clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
> Like I said before, I personally would feel guilty if one of my birds
> flew off to a likely death by starvation or predation, or broke its neck
> by flying into a window or mirror or wall.
My "Ziegensittich" (that's what they're called in German) was CLEVER enough
NEVER to fly into the BIG window I have in my living room. He kind of explored
the territory at first and it didn't take him long to realize where the room
actually stops.
> Besides, let's define "basic": it means something that is strictly
> necessary. A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water
> dish/toys is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it
> engages in flapping which most birds do).
You must be joking. A bird that can't fly is most certainly NOT fulfilling
_it's_ basic needs. It is fulfilling _your_ needs.
Don't get me wrong here - I am not generally against clipping a bird's wings. I
would, however, like to point out that clipping may not be appropriate for
EVERY bird. IMHO there ARE differences.
I do admit I decided to have my rosella's wings clipped because a) she isn't
very good at flying anyway and b) she simply destroys all of my plants. c)
clipping didn't help any either ;-) I finally decided to buy some plants she
would actually be allowed to destroy... If only I could prevent her from eating
my wallpaper... ;-)
--
Leonhard Scheiber (li...@mp2.stgt.sub.org)
Cathy Quinones
>In article <2ulje7$s...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, quin...@orchid.UCSC.EDU (Cathy Quinones) writes:
>> In article <1994Jun26.103830.1@tnclus> auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi (TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496) writes:
>
>> This is your choice, but assuming your house has windows or doors, one could
>> fly off and you would have to deal with the consequences.
>
> We have had birds about 2 year now. Actually, one of our tiel
> accidentally got away. We had to organize a large qroup to seach him,
> it took a long day. Lukily, and perhaps with a litle help from above,
> we were able to find him. This was 1,5 years ago. We learned our
> lesson with that incidense.
You were lucky, that's all. Now, what are the odds luck will smile on you
next time? Windows break, burglars leave doors open...
> We now conduct strict rules with the outdoor and windows. We have
> added security features to them too. There is no possibility for
> accidental escape.
No possibility can only mean you welded everything shut. Other dangers
within the home remain.
> Birds seem to learn to fly inhouse very well. They do not fly
> toward mirrors or windows. At least our's do not.
Until something spooks them, something within the home, something inoffen-
sive like a shoebox or a bunch of clothing just in from the dry cleaners...
>> Besides, frankly, how can you state that your birds are happy?
>
> Frankly, would you be happy, if you would lose your ability to walk ?
> Please do think about it. You could still move in a wheelchair...
I might be pissed off initially, but I'm sure I'd make the best of it...
besides, walking is the only practical, unassisted manner of locomotion for
humans, clipped birds would simply switch to alternative #2.
>> flightlessnes doesn't negate happiness.
>
> So, you would be happy, sitting in a wheelchair day after day ?
You bet I'd manage. Now, it looks like you think anybody who is in any way
mobility impaired simply sits around bemoaning their fate and being
unproductive and miserable. You really annoy me.
>> A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water dish/toys
>> is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it engages in
>> flapping which most birds do).
>
> Yes, but it is invalid, just like you would be in a wheelchair.
Buddy, you have really fucked up views about mobility. I am losing whatever
respect I had for you really fast.
>> Just don't go making accusations about "cruelty" when you have no proof
>> whatsoever that clipped birds are psychologically damaged or in pain or
>> unhappy.
>
> As you may know, there is currently no way to aquire proof about
> the thoughts of animals. By following your rule, the world would be
> rather miserable place for animals.
Your logic makes no sense. You are the one that started claiming to be
Dr. Doolittle, now you can no longer read minds I see...
> By denying bird's ability to fly, does not certainly (by common
> sense) make the bird happier. So only the cases unchanged and
> unhappier are available. Then, applying some comparison, you can
> easlily conclude, that the bird will be unhappier.
Let's talk about change. A bird that has never had full flight would not
know the difference, so your charges of cruelty wouldn't apply. A
bird denied flight adapts, quite allright usually, as evidenced by a
return to all its former activities (except flight) and personality. Change,
by the way, isn't always for the worst, and the transitive properties of
your so-called logic do not work either.
> And, if you allow your birds to fly, they will show you.
>
>Timo
They will show you that no matter how smart we think we are and how hard
we think we have worked at achieving a bird-proof environment, accidents
can happen. If you are so above all warnings (several people have been
less militant about this argument and have posted stories of their birds
getting hurt or killed because they flew where they shouldn't have), then,
for your birds' sake, I hope your luck doesn't run out.
Cathy Quinones
>On Jun 27, 94 Cathy Quinones wrote:
>
> > From: quin...@orchid.UCSC.EDU (Cathy Quinones)
>
> > In article <1994Jun26.103830.1@tnclus> auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi (TIMO
> > AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496) writes:
>
> > Besides, frankly, how can you state that your birds are happy? By the
> > same authority, those of us who have clipped birds can say the same thing
> > about our clipped pets. I think it takes more than flying to make a happy
> > bird, and conversely, flightlessnes doesn't negate happiness.
>
>Nope. I guess it depends on what bird you own. Apart from my rosella I have a
>[don't know what it's called in English; he's all green with a dark red spot on
>his forehead and comes from New Zealand] bird who LOVES to fly. I mean he
>REALLY loves to fly. He can fly like a rocket. I would most certainly not feel
>very comfortable at having his wings clipped. This would be utterly cruel.
>
>On the other hand my vet told me that this bird NEEDS to fly because he likes
>to eat all day and if he doesn't get enough exercise he will die.
I am not saying birds don't "enjoy" flying... I do not read bird minds. All
I am arguing is against this idea that once a bird is denied full flight it
instantly gets miserable and wants to die! Some birds *do* show signs of
"depression" when their wings are clipped (i.e., are quiet, listless), but
that doesn't apply to *all* birds, and that is my point. The "clipping is
cruel" original poster made statements to that end, with which I completely
disagree.
>>>I would not ever consider to take their basic method of locomotion away, by
>>>clipping their wings. I see it as a very cruel thing to do.
>
> > Like I said before, I personally would feel guilty if one of my birds
> > flew off to a likely death by starvation or predation, or broke its neck
> > by flying into a window or mirror or wall.
>
>My "Ziegensittich" (that's what they're called in German) was CLEVER enough
>NEVER to fly into the BIG window I have in my living room. He kind of explored
>the territory at first and it didn't take him long to realize where the room
>actually stops.
My 'tiel was this way in the first 2 homes we shared. On the 3rd one
(present) he repeatedly flew into windows and mirrors he had previously
ignored. No, he isn't going blind and it wasn't dark. I don't know why
he was doing this, but I had to stop it before he hurt himself ('tiels can
fly darn fast). The alternative would have been to keep him locked in his
cage, and that isn't acceptable to me.
> > Besides, let's define "basic": it means something that is strictly
> > necessary. A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water
> > dish/toys is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it
> > engages in flapping which most birds do).
>
>You must be joking. A bird that can't fly is most certainly NOT fulfilling
>_it's_ basic needs. It is fulfilling _your_ needs.
I have no qualms with admitting that I keep pet animals for the enjoyment
they provide *me*. I am not breeding endangered species, none of my
critters was rescued from an abusive situation: they are here because I like
them! If I just wanted them to be birds I would have no cages, and the whole
house would be an aviary. That is copletely unpractical.
And, again, here we go with th "fulfilling of basic needs". I bet flying is
pretty darn fun, but I don't know that, given the option, a bird would
choose it over things like chewing, eating, grooming, vocalizing. The fact
that a bird doesn't drop dead when its flight is hidered is proof enough
to me that flight is not at the top of the "basic priority list". The fact
that some birds have lost flight through evolutionary time is evidence that
flight is an energetically costly endeavor that exists only when there is
extreme selective pressure preserving it. Besides, lets get real, we are all
keeping birds, an eminently undomesticated group, as pets. We expect the dog
to obey us, we expect the cat not to try to eat the bird when we turn around,
who's running around under the pretense that bird keeping is all about
preserving birds in their pristine state? If that were the case, nobody in
this group would be wanting to know how to keep the birds from screaming,
or from pooping when and where we don't want them to.
>Don't get me wrong here - I am not generally against clipping a bird's wings. I
>would, however, like to point out that clipping may not be appropriate for
>EVERY bird. IMHO there ARE differences.
I'm open to this, I've yet to hear an "expert" (one whose writings have
convinced me the person indeed has sufficient knowledge) say that a certain
species needs flight more than another.
>I do admit I decided to have my rosella's wings clipped because a) she isn't
>very good at flying anyway and b) she simply destroys all of my plants. c)
>clipping didn't help any either ;-) I finally decided to buy some plants she
>would actually be allowed to destroy... If only I could prevent her from eating
>my wallpaper... ;-)
>--
>
>Leonhard Scheiber (li...@mp2.stgt.sub.org)
My guess is that your bird's wings were clipped in one of the less efficient
cuts: depending on the bird's build, certain trims allow for a lot of
flying ability in certain birds. You mentioned the vet said the bird needed
exercise lest it get too fat: my 'tiel dropped a bunch of unnecessary weight
once I switched him from pellets to seed, and he's as lazy as he was back when
he had the option of flying so go figure...
Eve Cunning
>Timo
Timo, they clip the feathers, not the actual WINGS! It doesn't hurt. It
also hasn't even phased my birds emotionally. I do have a crippled bird,
born with a deformed leg. Clipped birds are not crippled--they can still
fly, just not very far or very quickly.
We did this for a number of reasons. No, we definitely do not want them
to get away. Scared and confused, they would be easy targets for
the many birds of prey here. If the hawks didn't get them, they would
cruelly starve to death looking for bowls of pellets to eat, the only food
they know. We are simply realistic, recognizing that NO MATTER HOW CAREFUL
YOU ARE, you can never know what will happen that will give the bird an
opportunity to get out.
We also did not want them to fly into the walls, mirrors, and other hard
surfaces, or behind the refrigerator, or other potentially tragic places.
A startled flighted bird has little control over where it goes,
particularly in an enclosed room; clipping reduced the risk of serious
injury (EX: broken neck). Our crippled bird is especially bad at flying,
and we particularly want to keep her from hurting herself.
I am sorry that you find wing clipping so offensive, but please don't assume
that we happily "cripple" birds because we are "lazy." We clip birds because
we love them dearly and want to protect them.
--Eve
John Berry CT/90
>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
>quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
Those of you who are trying to explain the facts of life to this guy are
probably wasting your time. He has two types of birds, and can't spell the
names of either of them correctly (see above). I can't tell you how much
faith that gives me in his opinions...
James Yourch P265
insults in r.p.b. I don't mind a good argument because it can lead
to a better understanding by the participants and the spectators, but this
argument is getting emotional and is no longer constructive. This is
a good, informative, and friendly newsgroup. Please, let's keep it that
way.
Cheers,
Jay
Cathy Quinones
That was me cussing, sorry, I just can't stand badly worded and
even less well defended arguments and the hollow use of the words abuse and
cruelty, specially from someone who has already had a bird escape and was
lucky enough to recover the bird... and not learn the lesson. I was also
outright insulted by this person's assertions about how a clipped bird is
an "invalid" (what an ugly word to aply to human or bird, "not valid"), and
therefore pretty useless (by his definition of what a bird is supposed to
be). Considering his analogies to people in wheelchairs and his (to my
opinion) highly negatively comments about the mental state of
mobility-impaired people (and by comparison, clipped birds)... well, I just
lost my cool. I'll try to keep my cussing down, but I can't promise to
refrain from dissing bad arguments.
Joseph G. Callis
[...blah blah blah...]
>
> Yes, but it is invalid, just like you would be in a wheelchair.
^^^^^^^
[...blah blah blah...]>
>
>Timo
Uh scuse, the ignorance here, but "invalid?" How so? According to
Webster's (3rd, unabridged): an invalid (noun) is one who is sickly and weak.
So by clipping a birds wings you are making it sickly and weak? I am
sure that Mozart (tiel) can provide a bit of evidence to dispute this
claim. :) As can his vet!
If instead of "invalid" you meant "immobile" then we can again discuss
that. In fact, when Mozart did have the ability to fly (due to poorly
clipped wings, thanks to the pet store), he only did so when he was
scared. He would much rather sit (and poo) on my shoulder and travel
around (where he doesn't have to work so hard). This saves his energy
for more fun things, like climbing, chewing and jumping around and
visiting my house-mates.
Joe who isn't trying to change your mind, just proving that your
arguments are the only invalids here
cgun...@e4e.oac.uci.edu
Scheiber) wrote:
> > Besides, let's define "basic": it means something that is strictly
> > necessary. A bird that can still walk to its roost/cage/food dish/water
> > dish/toys is still fulfilling its basic needs, exercise included (if it
> > engages in flapping which most birds do).
>
> You must be joking. A bird that can't fly is most certainly NOT fulfilling
> _it's_ basic needs. It is fulfilling _your_ needs.
>
>
Just relax, Len. My bird is not clipped, and he rarely
flies though he is regularly given the freedom to do
so. He prefers to walk from room to room. He doesn't
consider flight a basic "need", apparently.
Gary Barth
wrote:
I also noticed some responses claiming that clipping a bird's wings was the
same as clipping off a baby's legs, with the argument that birds and flight
go together. Something about 'freedom'. If you want freedom for your birds,
don't own one. If you own one, let it go. Don't be a hypocrite. Doesn't
matter if a bird can fly if it lives in a cage, in a house, all the time.
My grey has the run of the house, as do my cockatiels, but they have
clipped wings. The cockatiels because of my paddle fans and open doors, my
grey because the house is too small, and you don't want to witness a grey
in flight slamming into a mirror or window. The 'tiels can 'fly' from the
floor to the couch or coffee table, but they can't attain full flight. My
grey gets his exercise from hanging on the side of his cage and flapping
like crazy, screaming "Earth to bird, earth to bird, come in, bird!!" If
you're going to insist on letting your birds fly free in the house, don't
have paddle fans, don't have mirrors, don't open your drapes to expose
window glass, and keep your stove off. I personally will continue to clip
wings and enjoy healthy birds.
(Carl, to clarify, this was in answer to the same post you were answering.
I agree with you wholehaertedly.)
--
*** Gary Barth ***********************************************************
* epg...@email.mot.com * "I may not always be right, but *
* 7410...@compuserve.com * I'm never wrong!" (Anon) *
**************************************************************************
Trudy Sansbury
Timo:
Are you serious?
Yes, clipping the wings does help prevent a bird from escaping,
but that is not the only reason to do this.
I don't understand how you can compare clipping wings to cutting
off legs; if you want to compare it to something, it would be
more like cutting hair. When you clip wings, you are only
cutting feathers, not bone, and it is painless.
Another reason to clip wings is that it helps to keep a bird
tame. Another VERY important reason is that if a bird takes
off in flight, there is a chance that the bird could fly into
something. As to being careful, have you ever tried to catch
a bird in flight?
As to your comment that people that clip wings are lazy, I would
think that someone who DOESN'T clip a bird's wings is the lazy
one. Clipping wings does not cripple a bird, it just stops them
from full flight; they can glid down to the floor if they try
to fly. (When clipping wings, clip BOTH wings, so that the
bird's wings are equal, and this prevents a bird from veering
off to one side.)
The clipping of wings is not maltreating a bird. My birds' wings
have always been clipped, and let me tell you, I have the most
happy, cheerful, feisty, loving and playful birds you'll ever
see. They talk, sing and whistle tunes all the time. They have
a lot of time out of their cages, and you can't help but notice
that these birds aren't mistreated.
And as far as prosecuting someone for clipping a bird's wings,
GET A LIFE!
Kevin Chu
In article <1994Jun27.184606.1@tnclus>,
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 <auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi> wrote:
> Birds seem to learn to fly inhouse very well. They do not fly
> toward mirrors or windows. At least our's do not.
At least yours do not. So does that mean no bird will fly towards
mirrors or windows? When your birds are frightened, they will most
certainly crash and hurt themselves if not clipped.
> Frankly, would you be happy, if you would lose your ability to walk ?
> Please do think about it. You could still move in a wheelchair...
> So, you would be happy, sitting in a wheelchair day after day ?
Let's get real! Birds are not clipped to ensure they won't be happy!
They are clipped for one of two reasons: to have a bit of a safeguard
against them escaping, and for their own safety!
> As you may know, there is currently no way to aquire proof about
> the thoughts of animals. By following your rule, the world would be
> rather miserable place for animals.
So how do you know a flighted bird is happier?! Sheesh! Some flighted
birds are happier than others, and some unflighted birds are happier
than others, and there certainly is some overlap. The most important
factor is of course the person who spends a lot of time with the bird
and cares for it.
By following your rule, dogs should not be on leashes, fish should not
be in tanks, plants should not be in pots, criminals should not be in
prison.... Birds have the emotional level of a two-year-old human. If
the birds are kept busy and healthy, and have lots of things to distract
them, they will be quite happy, even if clipped! Imagine you not letting
your two-year-old human child play with matches. Given other things to
do and kept busy, the child will be very happy, and may even forget
about the matches!
Kevin
--
Kevin Chu, an OS/2 user. kev...@wimsey.bc.ca
Kevin Chu
Cathy Quinones <quin...@orchid.UCSC.EDU> wrote:
>extreme selective pressure preserving it. Besides, lets get real, we are all
>keeping birds, an eminently undomesticated group, as pets. We expect the dog
>to obey us, we expect the cat not to try to eat the bird when we turn around,
>who's running around under the pretense that bird keeping is all about
>preserving birds in their pristine state? If that were the case, nobody in
>this group would be wanting to know how to keep the birds from screaming,
>or from pooping when and where we don't want them to.
I wish I said that. ;)
We as humans have to share our environment with birds, dogs, cats, and
other animals, and we each have to make a compromise to live with each
other. Look at the alternative.
Marilyn Wisher
stuff deleted
>get the better of me and we got stopped by the Highway Patrol just
>outside of Indio. The trooper was pretty nice about it even though
>I got the ticket, but he kept looking at the cages in the back seat
>where Dodger and Ridley (Budgie) were saftey belted. I was very
>happy the Dodger didn't say, "Oink, oink, goose step, goose step!"
>Regards,
>Dana
Oh Dana, these stories of yours! My daughter, the cop, just loved this
one. She'd have broken up to an "oink, oink". She has birds.
Marilyn
Linda Saegert
wholhearted ly about clipping wings. There is a necessity for the birds
own safety for the bird to be clipped. My Macaw doesn't seem too dark
and dreary for his wings being clipped. He still loves me to death.
He is a very active bird and without a doubt would fly into a revolving
ceiling fan if he had his wings. So fellow wing clipper don't get
discouraged by the ignorance of those who feel the wings should remain
in tact. Maybe they are lucky and have somewhat inactive birds.
LSaegert
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496
> By following your rule, dogs should not be on leashes, fish should not
> be in tanks -etc-
I'm not saying that one should not own a pet.
But, if one can not afford to offer sufficient surroundings for a pet, one
should not make the pet disabled or cripple to fit it into the unsufficient
surroundings. In such case it is better not to buy one.
There seems to be a "we know better, shut your mouth or we shut it" situation
with this matter. This is well-known phenomena since the Middle Ages.
Some questions still:
It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now forbidden
by law, at least here in finland.
When a birds wings are cut, does it spend more time on the floor ?
If so, are they in any danger to be stepped on ? Flying birds are
seldom on the floor.
Wbrgds, Timo
Eric Mintz
>But, if one can not afford to offer sufficient surroundings for a pet, one
>should not make the pet disabled or cripple to fit it into the unsufficient
>surroundings. In such case it is better not to buy one.
>
>There seems to be a "we know better, shut your mouth or we shut it" situation
>with this matter. This is well-known phenomena since the Middle Ages.
Really? I thought the situation was that people took offense to your claim
that an animal which had its mobility somewhat restricted would end up
mentally dysfunctional.
>Some questions still:
>
> It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
> comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
> disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
> were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now forbidden
> by law, at least here in finland.
The domestic cat. Cats which, by circumstance or design, remain indoors and
never go outside are often declawed. But this (by your definition) should
be even worse than wing clipping, since the cats are generally declawed to
protect property, while birds are clipped to protect the birds.
>
> When a birds wings are cut, does it spend more time on the floor ?
> If so, are they in any danger to be stepped on ? Flying birds are
> seldom on the floor.
>
>Wbrgds, Timo
Not in a well designed environment. If the bird does not want to be on
the floor, it can climb up it's bird tree, or a ladder to its cage. And
in my (limited) experience, flighted birds will explore the floor in a
room which they are familiar with, since who knows what treasures might
lie hidden in the carpet. :)
Eric
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496
> I agree wholheartedly about clipping wings.
Does a wing-clipper has a heart at all ?
> There is a necessity for the birds own safety for the bird to be clipped.
In previous articles there have been many references to the fear
that birds may fly towards windows or mirrors.
It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
not to train them.
The fear of accidental escape is a matter of the owner's carefulness.
One should improve safety, rather that make a bird cripple.
Wbrgds, Timo
-B.LING
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 <auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi> wrote:
>
>> I agree wholheartedly about clipping wings.
>
> Does a wing-clipper has a heart at all ?
nah, we're just biologically superior to the rest of humanity
and count on the moon's gravity to move our blood thru our
bodies. kinda like the tides, you know?
any other questions?
C Brehm
(TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496)
writes:
>It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
>train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
>not to train them.
A frieghtened bird could still fly into a window, mirror, ceiling fan
or just out of curisoity try to land on the edge of a hot skillet or
boiling pot. I know of one owner who did not clip his birds wings
and the bird was bioled to death and another that was killed when the
switch to the ceiling fan was truned on, the bird was sitting on the
fan blades.
>The fear of accidental escape is a matter of the owner's arefulness.
>One should improve safety, rather that make a bird cripple.
What happens when one of the neigborhod kids walk in and leave the
door open? Many companion birds have been lost this way.
Proper cliping of a birds wing means that indoors in calm air the
bird can not gain height but can still glide safely down. Outside
this can therefor relate to flight if the wind is blowing.
Just my two cents worth,
Carl
Cathy Quinones
>In article <2v26l0$b...@vanbc.wimsey.com>, kev...@vanbc.wimsey.com (Kevin Chu) writes:
>
>> By following your rule, dogs should not be on leashes, fish should not
>> be in tanks -etc-
>
>I'm not saying that one should not own a pet.
You are saying owning a bird under conditions that are different from the ones
you approve of is cruel, abusive, crippling...
>But, if one can not afford to offer sufficient surroundings for a pet, one
>should not make the pet disabled or cripple to fit it into the unsufficient
>surroundings. In such case it is better not to buy one.
The way I see it, the only way you can give any animal "all the environment
it needs" is by leaving it in the natural setting. That negates having
pets. Once an animal comes to be fully dependent on humans, it has already
had it's "naturalness" compromised. You keep your pets fully flighted because
it gives you pleasure to think they are happy. Others keep theirs clipped
because it gives them pleasure to think the birds are then safe *and* still
happy. Since I don't think clipping = crippling, in doing so I make a more
perfect match between pet and environment.
>There seems to be a "we know better, shut your mouth or we shut it" situation
>with this matter. This is well-known phenomena since the Middle Ages.
No, it's more of a "you must convincingly defend your arguments before you
can tell others they are wrong" and that's been around much longer.
>Some questions still:
>
> It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
> comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
> disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
No, clipped birds aren't disabled or crippled.
> were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now forbidden
> by law, at least here in finland.
Docking tails and ears is a PURELY COSMETIC thing, permanent, and chopping
off the tail and ears in no way help keep the animals from damaging
themselves, nor does it help train the animals. That is the reason many
vets refuse to do it.
>
> When a birds wings are cut, does it spend more time on the floor ?
> If so, are they in any danger to be stepped on ? Flying birds are
> seldom on the floor.
WHen a bird's wings are cut, they probaby die from either trauma or they
bleed to death. When birds are clipped, they go about with their usual
business, except they can't fly, or can't fly as well.
Birds tend to go for the highest perching spot, therefore they will use
their little feet to climb to a satisfactory position. Beaks and toenails
are excellent for climbing up upholstered furniture. I personally have
a "bird tree" and assorted ladders that allow the birds to climb up back to
their cages, or to hang out off the floor. The birds use these ladders
when they are done cleaning the carpet.
Flighted birds DO hang out on the floor on their own choice. Mine love to run
around pecking around, finding tidbits of stuff in the carpet. This is just
a variation of the normal feeding behaviors of birds in the wild, where food
is still subject to the force or gravity. Back when my 'tiel was unclipped,
he would still check out the floor.
Birds should never be allowed to wander around unsupervised. A trusting
bird that is capable of flying off may not recognize upcoming feet as a
threat, and may not be able to react in time and avoid being stepped upon.
Thinking that a bird that can fly = a bird that is invulnerable to being
stepped upon, sat upon, pounced upon is inviting disaster. When birds,
clipped or not, are out of their cages, people should be on the lookout.
*That* is the kind of thing that goes under "providing a suitable
environment."
Linda Saegert
can't see further than your nose. Making judgement on how other people deal
with their pets must turn you on. If so, keep going!! :) Ignorance in
itself is usually bliss and doesn't see straight. Enjoy yourself, but
stop badgering people here on line. Clipping wings is neither right or
wrong is is up to the owner of the bird and the environment in which the
bird is now in. The bird, as well as the cat or any other pet or animal
will willingly adjust to the environment in which it is kept. If the
bird is given lots of love which mine are, they will adjust quite well.
There are too many reported incidents of ignorant people who loose birds
because they are not clipped and the bird dies because they are not able
to cope in a wild environment. I suppose you think this is okay, by your
attitude so what if the bird dies. A dog who is a house pet will also
sometimes die on the street because it cannot find food too. Or they
get hit by a car or whatever, so we shouldn't have dogs or any kind of
pets either. GET REAL!!! Let humane pet owner alone. LSAegert
Linda Saegert
Cathy Quinones
>In article <p47SJ0o....@delphi.com>, Linda Saegert <lsae...@delphi.com> writes:
>
>> I agree wholheartedly about clipping wings.
>
> Does a wing-clipper has a heart at all ?
Duh, Timo, without a heart pumping blood to keep all parts of her body
functioning, Linda would have been unable to type that statement!
Try arguing your points, Timo, I mean using logic, instead of jumping into
insults. That only shows how incapable you are of definding your statements.
>> There is a necessity for the birds own safety for the bird to be clipped.
>
> In previous articles there have been many references to the fear
> that birds may fly towards windows or mirrors.
>
> It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
> train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
> not to train them.
Or if one is lazy enough to resort to insults instead of using well-thought
arguments?
If you had bothered to read the previous posts, you would have noticed
that one of the main dangers of mirrors, windows and walls (yes, WALLS)
is that a frightened bird may fly off and collide with one of these
objects. Maybe you have padded all the walls in your house, as well as the
furniture. Maybe your birds are capable of shifting into another dimension
and thusly avoid barriers. The rest of us own regular birds and regular
homes...
>
> The fear of accidental escape is a matter of the owner's carefulness.
> One should improve safety, rather that make a bird cripple.
>
You already confessed to having a bird escape, can you come up with a bit of
sympathy towards others that have or will suffer this situation? Or even
admit that, had the bird been clipped it probably wouldn't have been lost
for hours, exposed to the environment and predators? Talk about that
"adequate environment" of yours...
Clipping improves safety, and clipping flight feathers doesn't cripple birds.
Kevin Chu
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 <auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi> wrote:
> Does a wing-clipper has a heart at all ?
[stuff deleted]
> In previous articles there have been many references to the fear
> that birds may fly towards windows or mirrors.
>
> It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
> train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
> not to train them.
What happens if the bird is frightened by something? What if you dropped
a textbook or something, your bird would take off by instinct and fly
into a window, even if it knows the window is there. It would even fly
into a wall.
> The fear of accidental escape is a matter of the owner's carefulness.
> One should improve safety, rather that make a bird cripple.
This has already been addressed (many times). A clipped bird is not a
cripple. You can't have an open mind, can you?
Kevin Chu
Cathy Quinones <quin...@orchid.UCSC.EDU> wrote:
>You already confessed to having a bird escape, can you come up with a bit of
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
Timo, you have already had a bird escape. Have you already had a bird
crash into anything while flying? If not, YOU WILL.
I find it grossly unfair that the birds have to suffer for YOU to learn
a lesson.
Again, I ask: What stops a flighted bird from becoming unhappy? Is
a bird's happiness determined exclusively by its ability to fly? (I
say that anyone answering "yes" to this second question is an idiot.)
Kevin Chu
TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496 <auti...@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi> wrote:
>But, if one can not afford to offer sufficient surroundings for a pet, one
>should not make the pet disabled or cripple to fit it into the unsufficient
>surroundings. In such case it is better not to buy one.
Okay. So if you have a fish, you are putting it into an insufficient
environment. It can swim neither as fast or as far as it could in the
wild. You have a dog. You put it in a fenced yard. Same applies.
Now, you have a bird. The bird must fly, but it has many obstacles to
crash into (and believe me, it WILL). In order to provide the
sufficient environment for the bird (open skies), you'd have to take the
roof and walls off your house, and remove your furniture. If you can't
do that and provide a sufficient environment, it is better for you to
not have a bird, unless you can take alternative steps.
Since your house is an insufficient environment, you have to take
steps to ensure the bird's safety. Clip. Or, pad your walls and
furniture. What if you had a dog that kept running and crashing
into windows? You'd cover the windows, pad the walls, etc., or
stop it from running. This could be as simple as tying a heavy
weight to the dog's harness, so that when it runs it doesn't go as
fast. Is that cruel? Perhaps, but the dog won't crash into any-
thing hard. It would be more cruel to let the dog or bird crash
and hurt itself.
>There seems to be a "we know better, shut your mouth or we shut it" situation
>with this matter. This is well-known phenomena since the Middle Ages.
You are talking about yourself. Look at it from the other direction.
> It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
> comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
> disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
> were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now forbidden
> by law, at least here in finland.
Wing clipping is not disabling or crippling a bird. Why? The bird
is not in the wild, and does not have to escape from anything or travel
long distances. It's like taking away a child's bicycle or car. If
the child does not need the transportation, then it is not crippled. But
the child will not crash into anything, and certainly can find
happiness in other things. You certainly know a child without a car or
bicycle who is happy.
And wing clipping is temporary.
> When a birds wings are cut, does it spend more time on the floor ?
> If so, are they in any danger to be stepped on ? Flying birds are
> seldom on the floor.
Take your own argument about the owner being careful, and apply it
here.
Linda Saegert
Michele Goddard
[cutting some previous conversation]
>Some questions still:
>
> It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
> comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
> disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
> were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now forbidden
> by law, at least here in finland.
>
primal needs, most dogs and cats are spayed and neutered. Is this
also against the law in Finland? This seems to me to be more of
denial of basic need.
Also, pigs get parts cut, and some are pets here. Why are you
limiting the discussion to pets?
> When a birds wings are cut, does it spend more time on the floor ?
> If so, are they in any danger to be stepped on ? Flying birds are
> seldom on the floor.
I'd like to know as well. Do those who have the proper environments
for free flight birds know how much time their bird spends on the
floor?
I've heard some evidence here that even wild birds spend little time
flying.
Our birds are often on the floor exploring. No one's been stepped
on yet. It's real easy to know where birdies are if you keep an eye
on them. Also be careful where you step if you hear "Birdie on
Floor." This is only with fellow bird people. With guests around,
they get picked up and put on furniture. Then they stay up on that.
I've seen how ours behave. I've also seen two cases (at one of our
bird clubs) of a cockatiel and a Congo flying hard into walls
because their owners didn't clip them soon enough. Between the two
dangers, I think I'd prefer being able to catch the bird on the
floor.
Michele
>Wbrgds, Timo
abar...@delphi.com
> In previous articles there have been many references to the fear
> that birds may fly towards windows or mirrors.
>
> It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
> train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
> not to train them.
>
> The fear of accidental escape is a matter of the owner's carefulness.
> One should improve safety, rather that make a bird cripple.
b
ut having just got off the phone with my mother-in-law, I have to post
the story that she just tearfully related to me:
This weekend she was at party, you know, one of those, family&friends
barbeque in the backyard style parties. Because the weather was so nice,
the family put their cockateil (caged) out on the back porch where she
could observe the festivities and get some fresh air. As the party wound
down, everyone pitched in to clean up. The bird's owner, a young boy,
was instructed to not forget to bring his bird in the house--which he
promptly did forget, and ran off with some friends. My mother-in-law
loves birds, and not wanting to see the bird get cold, went to pick
up the cage to carry the bird in the house. To her surprise, the bottom
of the cage did not stay attached to the cage, and the cockateil,
startled by this, flew out and away. THIS BIRD WAS UNCLIPPED. The
family had thought that they had taken all the necessary precautions
about losing the bird by locking her in the cage during the party.
My mother-in-law was extremely upset to say the least. She feels
responsible for the fact that this helpless pet, not knowing how to
survive in the wild, will die a slow and torturous death of hunger,
if a predator does not kill her first.
Needless to say, this bird has not been recovered. She flew away
after sundown, and with the fireworks and other noises of a 4th
of July weekend celebration, it is very unlikely that she stayed
close to the house. A very strange environment, with lots of scary
noises, lights, etc. probably spooked her--cockateils are very
timid, and when spooked, don't pay attention to where they are
flying. She is probably miles away.
A clipped bird could have been easily recovered, and returned to
her home, along with her food, toys, and flock members (the family).
Instead, this bird is almost certainly been written a death warrant--and
not a quick painless one either.
And to say that:
> It may be possible to develop such fear, if one do not know how to
> train a bird to detect windows and mirrors. Or if one is lazy enough
> not to train them.
My *clipped* birds have flown into my windows when spooked. That is the
whole point. Normally birds are intelligent creatures who can learn not
to fly into dangerous objects such as windows and mirrors. A panicked
bird is a completely different subject altogether. YOU CAN NOT TEACH
A BIRD HOW TO PANIC PROPERLY!!!
Fortunately for me, my clipped birds even when panicked (which doesnt
happen very often, but once is all it takes!) don't get enough speed
or force going to hurt themselves. I hate to think what would happen
to free flying bird that was spooked into flying as fast as he could
into a window.
Patti
Thomas J. Trebisky
>>Yes, I have a couple of budgerigar's and a couple of cocatiel's. They are
>>quite happy birds, and all the four of them flies freely inhouse.
jbe...@brutus.ct.gmr.com (John Berry) writes:
>Those of you who are trying to explain the facts of life to this guy are
>probably wasting your time. He has two types of birds, and can't spell the
>names of either of them correctly (see above).
You might also consider that English is probably not his native tongue,
he is posting from Finland after all.
------
And to the rest of the group I offer this bit of thought....
I am a bit saddened by the harsh and narrow-minded viewpoints expressed
by those in this group. Not that I am ready to attack wing-clipping.
I think that it is quite the sensible thing to do, but I can also come
to grips with the possibility of keeping smaller birds such as 'tiels or
budgies fully flighted if due care is taken. Life is not without it's
risks after all. I can imagine that a dedicated bird-owner could reduce
these risks to a managable level is they were really determined.
My best shot at reducing risks to my birds is wing-clipping, but someone
else could take a different approach.
Waxing philosophical, I would hope that those of us who keep birds as
pets can at least have a bit of a sense of awe towards a birds ability
to fly. I became interested in birds initially via watching wild birds
and particularly hawks and other raptors in the outdoors. And I have felt
a bit of guilt at times when I think of my now keeping my two birds caged
and clipped, I probably think of this when I see a wild bird launch into
flight, what a joy it must be! The argument could go on and on: how sad
my birds must be not to be in the rain-forest and feeling the winds and
storms and foraging for food on his own. And what about all the animals
captive in the zoos, etc. etc.
I spend many mornings in my front yard under the blue sky with my amazon
(clipped of course) drinking my morning coffee (me, not him.). There are
times when he(she?) will cock his head and look up at the vast blue sky
and make a sort of satisfied grunt noise and I like to imagine at least
that he feels the call of the limitless skies.
So what am I saying. First off, if you are uptight with clipping wings,
you should be just as uptight about keeping your bird in a cage, or even in
a house or *even* in a football stadium sized aviary. It is all captivity
if you want to get uptight about it. What I *am* saying is that to fully
appreciate our avian friends, we should at least ponder and appreciate the
freedom they have sacrificed (against their wills, yes I know), to be our
companions. Birds are incredible creatures, and yes I believe both my
friends are quite happy.
LoreL
writes:
Your response was right on the money! People who say that a bird
will never fly away from them are living in some kind of dream world.
Lore
MacParrot
(TIMO AUTIOKARI, P: INT+358 0 511 5280, FAX: INT+358 0 511 6496)
writes:
[cutting some previous conversation]
>Some questions still:
>
> It there any other species of pet-animals that are treated in
> comparable manner to the wing clipping ? (I.e. making the animal
> disabled, or crippled). I can not think any. Some times ago people
> were cutting the tail of some breed of dogs, but this is now
forbidden
> by law, at least here in finland.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before...not to be judgemental or
anything, but isn't it Finland where Minke whales are still being
slaughtered as a "delicacy" in defiance of a ban by the International
Whaling Comission? Just because Finland has laws against cruelty to
pets or barnyard animals doesn't mean the Finnish government is any
less enlightened when it comes to animal cruelty. This is not a
flame against the person who posted the question originally, just
something to think about.
Sheri McGuire
says:
>on them. Also be careful where you step if you hear "Birdie on
>Floor." This is only with fellow bird people. With guests around,
>they get picked up and put on furniture. Then they stay up on that.
>
>
I hope you don't have a 10 yo. human child. I'm more and more convinced
that Bill Cosby is correct in his theory that children have 'brain damage'. :')
We've had Tweeters since 3/93 and have been saying 'BIRDIE ON THE FLOOR'
whenever she flies to the floor and the rule is whoever says that gets the
bird and others DON'T MOVE until the birdie is off the floor. Well, you
would think after 16 months of training our daughter it would have sunk in.
NOOOOO. Last night we were all in the kitchen and Tweeters was on the tree
when she glided into the kitchen. I said 'Birdie on the floor' and bent
down to pick her up when my daughter stepped back and almost stepped on
Tweeters. Geesh!! I picked Tweeters up and I must of had some shocked
look on my face because before I could say anything she said 'Sorry... I
forgot' (I hate that answer...<growl>). I won't go into the lecture but I
think I might have an easier time training the birds not to get on the
floor than training my daughter not to 'forget'.. :'( :')
I guess my point is be careful. Just when you think you have things under
control .....
Sheri
Susan J. Naccarato <sjnaccar>
I've asked questions here before and no one seems to want to talk to me.
Don't know what I'm doing wrong, should I be asking permission to join
the group? I have a real important question to ask now. My fiance
makes toys for our parrots. They have a couple with rawhide string
in them. We were told if we make our own to be sure the rawhide is
untreated. Just talked to a taxidermist and he said I can get rawhide
undyed, but if it's not treated (tanned) in some way, it will rot. One
thing he uses is a borax solution (that doesn't sound too good); then
there's some kind of powder stuff he can tan with. So please help me
here. What can I use?
Susan
Lori K Herold
There are dangers either whether a bird is clipped or unclipped.
In our experience, we lost one (unclipped) budgie due to his
escaping from a cage on the patio. We lost one clipped budgie due
to her jumping off the top of her cage when frightened and falling
to the floor critically injured. My mother lost her tame and talking
clipped budgie when a visitor stepped on him accidentally.
Our policy now is to clip our tame birds to keep them tame ('tiel)
and not let him run around on the floor, and to leave unclipped our
"wild" birds (lovebirds) and allow them supervised flight periods in
a closed room. Our lovebirds have been clipped in the past (during
attempts to tame them-- they are finger trained) but are much happier
being flighted birds. Our 'tiel loves people so much that I do
not think he misses flying as long as he gets enough attention.
L.
LoreL
(MacParrot) writes:
Clipping wings does not involve cutting flesh or bone -- it involves
cutting feather, which is like cutting hair. The purpose is not to be
fashionable or cruel, it's to keep the bird safe, as in not flying into
the toilet and drowning, not flying into boiling water or a frying pan, or
even flying into a window and breaking its neck.
And most important, it keeps the bird from flying into the great beyond,
where it is most likely incapable of defending itself against an
environment it was not raised in and against predators.
I love my birds very much and the last thing I would ever do would be to
hurt them in any way. I think of wing clipping as a responsibility I have
in keeping my birds out of harm's way.
Lore
Susan Meredith
Susan,
I'm not sure about rawhide, but my husband and I make some of our own birdtoys.
We bought a cheap blowtorch (about $30). We get dogchains and string them
with hungs of wood/lego pieces/etc. then weld closed rings on the end.
They get put on the cage using C-bolts. We buy different size links for
the macaw and the amazons (to make sure toenails can't get caught).
Good luck making your own toys!!
By the way, I've been pretty inactive in this group lately (I've been selfish
- I've been reading everybody else stuff and not taking the time to respond).
Sorry if you didn't get answers earlier. From what I have seen this is
a really great group of people - don't get too discouraged.
Susan
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===============================================================================
MacParrot
writes:
>In article <2vd6v4$b...@search01.news.aol.com>, macp...@aol.com
>(MacParrot) writes:
And then there was no quote of mine following.....to be clear, I think
that wing-clipping is a prudent thing to do for most pet hookbills who get
most of their exercise by climbing. I do not think it is a horribly cruel
practice, in fact that I was arguing that it is not.
I also need to add that I stand corrected from my earlier post...Norway is
the contry that is involved in slaughtering Minke whales despite a ban by
the IWC. This comes up because originally the person who posted that
wing-clipping is cruel was from Finland. I apologize for any
misunderstanding. However, I stand by my statement that while governments
may pass anti-cruelty laws regarding treatment of pets and barnyard
animals, the countries may still be less than civilized in their treatment
of animals if they feel it is in their interest.