Molting Canary
Grace Schipani
My female canary went through a molt a few months ago, and lost feathers
around her neck and straight down the middle of her back. There have been no
signs of any new feather growth since. Her diet consists of seeds, treats,
fresh greens, fruits and dietary supplements. Cage is indoors and kept very
clean. Any ideas on what the problem may be?
Kathy Dunning
GSch...@gnn.com (Grace Schipani) wrote:
Nutritional deficiencies are usually exposed during molting. Birds
offered balanced diets usually get through the molting process without
incident. However, on a poor diet, a bird that has deficiencies will
most certainly show signs of sickness and stress.
Pelleted diets offer all of the essential vitamins and minerals needed
daily to meet the nutritional requirements of pet birds.
Birds need special care during molting:
1. Provide a warm environment (draft free)
2. 8 to 12 hours of darkness a day is required for adequate rest
3. Molting stresses the bird. Any quiet area or even covering part
of the cage will provide the bird with a private area to rest.
4. Adding egg to the present diet will provide higher protein
5. Provide an excellent diet - molting means new plumage. To insure
good feathering feed the proper nutrients.
Harold Stevens
Kathy Dunning (lafe...@ais.net) wrote:
: Nutritional deficiencies are usually exposed during molting. Birds
: offered balanced diets usually get through the molting process without
: incident. However, on a poor diet, a bird that has deficiencies will
: most certainly show signs of sickness and stress.
We're having the same problem Grace is having except in our case, it is a
male canary with his neck, upper mid-breast and crop feathers missing. In his
case, it was not a dietary deficiency but rather a yeast infection that
started the problem. It is an ongoing battle to get rid of the yeast
problem, which has resulted Kiwi being on several different types of
anti-yeast medicine with no problem. After we finally got the yeast
infection licked, his skin started getting irritated and red and the avian
veterinarian said he was probably suffering from allergies.
: Pelleted diets offer all of the essential vitamins and minerals needed
: daily to meet the nutritional requirements of pet birds.
But what do you do about a bird that doesn't like the pellets and refuses
to eat it? They are like little spoiled children at times. :)
: Birds need special care during molting:
: 1. Provide a warm environment (draft free)
: 2. 8 to 12 hours of darkness a day is required for adequate rest
: 3. Molting stresses the bird. Any quiet area or even covering part
: of the cage will provide the bird with a private area to rest.
: 4. Adding egg to the present diet will provide higher protein
: 5. Provide an excellent diet - molting means new plumage. To insure
: good feathering feed the proper nutrients.
Unfortunately, in our case it's "been there, done that." We have even put
him on special vitamins given to us by the avian vet, feed him a variety
of different types of seeds (other than canary and rape); fruits and
vegetables that are high in vitamin A, C and E; tuna, eggs and chopped
peanuts for protein (needed for feather replacement); and mineral
supplements. On top of that, Kiwi is feeling great, doing his usual
spastic exercises in the cage, watches the birds outside at the feeder and
sings from morning until sunset.
He has been tested for mites and other microscopic pests and parasites, as
well as for bacteria infections. All have come out negative, with nothing
bothering him. So basically, we are really stumped on this one.
Christiene Stevens
internet address: csst...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
Harold Stevens
--
Internet addresses: hste...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
h.st...@genie.com
hg...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Shirley/Rick
> Harold Stevens wrote:
[some of post snipped]
> Only after leaving your draws at the
> front desk, after innumerable visits, will a "magic" potion be produced.
>
> The USELESS AND EXPENSIVE services offered by vets today would make any
> CRACK DEALER cry with shame and ENVY!
>
> I have to wonder if there are business seminars for vets that coach them
> to figger each person walking in the door to be good for at least $1000
> in revenue before the actual treatment (or euthanasia) is delivered.
I have known many veterinarians, largely due to the fact that I worked at
a veterinary office for 10 years. Each veterinarian approaches things in a
different way -- some run lots of tests, some do not; some believe in
exhausting EVERY medical option available before suggesting euthanasia,
while others do not believe in putting the animal through weeks of pain at
the end of an otherwise healthy life. But in all our years of BIRDkeeping,
we have only known ONE unscrupulous, unethical, money-hungry avian
veterinarian. Frankly, I CAN'T believe she STILL has a license to
practice!
Simply put, not ALL veterinarians try to squeeze every last dime out of
their clients before helping the pet. I've met some really caring,
reasonably-priced veterinarians who helped my pets on the very first visit
many times.
There were 3 veterinarians who practiced where I worked. One was SO
dedicated and would get SO involved with her patients that she would get
migraines out of concern. Her euthanasias always had to be scheduled for
the end of the day (when possible), because afterwards, she had to go
home. The other WAS prone to running lots of tests during the initial
phases of diagnosis, but only because he was of the opinion that if you
cover all bases BEFORE you treat the animal, you are more apt to nail down
a definite diagnosis the FIRST TIME, rather than the try-this, try-that
philosophy. The third vet was an older, farm-type vet. He was more apt to
try some simple treatments first, before running all kinds of tests -- and
USUALLY, he was right!
While I KNOW how maddening it can be to see a vet, end up spending a small
fortune and STILL not have a definite diagnosis or a cured pet, ALL
veterinarians don't fall under a blanket statement like that any more than
ALL bird owners do.
By the way, this response was ONLY posted to rec.pets.birds, not the
bizillion groups listed!
--Shirley
"Keep tight inside of them ... for their magic must be very powerful, or she wouldn't want them so badly!" -- Glinda, the Good Witch
Layne David Dicker
Okay folks, ready for a heady analysis of this situation:
Some vets are good.
Some vets are bad.
Find a good one.
Layne
P.S. Please feel free to remove the word "vet" and insert doctors,
lawyers, breeders, behaviorists, men, women, cops,
______________-Americans (insert European, African, Asian, Mexican,
Jewish, Specially Abled or whatever flag you happen to be flying),
homosexuals, heterosexuals (Sorry, but not Bi-sexuals. All Bi-sexuals are
bad. First of all, they're greedy; they don't want to limit their dating
pool. And second, lets face it, if there's one thing in life that you
should be able to make up your mind about, well, you get the idea.),
Catholics, Buddhists or whatever. Once there is more than one of anything,
generalizations are per se inaccurate.
leigh__hidell
Gee, what's your problem w/ bisexuals? I hope that was satire...Some
of my best birds are bisexual. :-)
Wayne
COMPUTERCRAFT wrote:
For those of you wondering, this is the loser who took this post from
rec.pets.birds and crossposted it to all these other groups. If all of
you send them a nastygram as I have
maybe they will mend their ways
S. Krantz
Hello,
This is copied from GBR Walkers book Colored, Type and
Song Canaries. It might be of assistance to you. I have noticed
myself that light, as he mentions, plays an important role in molting.
On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:03:36, GSch...@gnn.com (Grace Schipani)
wrote:
>My female canary went through a molt a few months ago, and lost feathers
>around her neck and straight down the middle of her back. There have been no
>signs of any new feather growth since. Her diet consists of seeds, treats,
>fresh greens, fruits and dietary supplements. Cage is indoors and kept very
>clean. Any ideas on what the problem may be?
>
S. Krantz
Little Chirps Aviary
Peachtree City, GA
LilC...@cris.com
lilc...@avana.net
http://www.concentric.net/~lilchirp/index.htm
_
('v')
( ) Sir Lancelot's Favorite Recipies are at:
~/'~'~~ http://www.concentric.net/~Lilchirp/brdfood.htm
S. Krantz
Hello,
This is copied from GBR Walkers book Colored, Type and
Song Canaries. It might be of assistance to you. I have noticed
myself that light, as he mentions, plays an important role in molting.
The Moult Every year after the breeding season, as the day length is
decreasing, all birds undergo a complete moult, losing and replacing
all their feathers (except for same-year chicks, which lose all but
the main flight feathers). This, although a normal process, is
inevitably a period of stress and problems can arise if the diet is
deficient in essential proteins for feather production, or if the bird
is stressed during the moult. A moult may also be disturbed or
prolonged if the environmental conditions are unnatural. In birds kept
indoors with artificial light in the evenings, for example, the moult
may be prolonged, with new feathers growing but then falling out
again. Sometimes in such cases, bald patches may be left on the head
and neck. This prolonged moult may also occur when hens are allowed to
go on breeding late in the season, so that chick rearing runs on into
the moult.
I try my best to mimick natural light patterns inside my bird room.
The lights go on and off when the sun rises and sets.
Good luck,
Sharon
ellen beth kessler
In <56tmbf$a...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Are you familiar with a syndrome called "male canary balding?" From
what I recall, it's a genetic fault, promoted by breeders who bred soft
feather to soft feather (or is it hard feather to hard feather?)
Patterns of baldness result. If your canary passes all his tests with
"flying colors" then this might be the cause....
Ellen
Shawn B. Wikle
On the other hand:
A couple of years ago my wife was driving to work and saw a rabbit get
hit by a car in front of her. It made it off the road, but was
clearly injured. She had a towel with her in the car and was able to
get the rabbit wrapped up without getting bit. She took the animal to
our vet. He examed the rabbit and found the injuries too severe to
treat and put the little guy down. My wife left and on her way out
she went up to the desk to pay as usual. The receptionist said we
didn't owe anything, that the vet often treats strays and wild animals
and there is no charge to the person bringing them in.
Rompum
I have worked for 3 years at Abbott Animal hospital,
a modern veterinary facility located in Worcester, MA
(about 50 miles southwest of Boston) employing 6
doctors, 5 veterinary technicians, and 5 veterinary nurses.
All of our doctors are intelligent, thorough, completely
qualified, compassionate, selfless and fair. Oftentimes I
overhear them discussing how they can lessen the burden of costs
of hospitalization and medication for their clients. They keep
long hours, often thanklessly, and deal daily with ignorant and
uncaring people.
People who put their animals to sleep
because they didn't care to raise them properly, with respect
for humans, or just because they found them increasingly
'useless.'
People who tie their animals up outdoors for
weeks on end, lying in their own waste, until they notice
the smell and bring them in for us to remove the maggots
from their flesh.
People who don't care.
People who are difficult and ignorant, like yourself.
So many believe that veterinarians are unskilled because
they 'only work on animals.' How many MDs must know the
anatomy, physiology, handling techniques, surgical proceedures,
and diseases of most domesticated mammals, birds, and reptiles?
They must fufill the role of EVERY specialist one could find
in a human hospital. And their patients can't talk to explain
what's gone wrong, though their owners can, oftentimes causing
more problems than they help.
Yes, procedures, surguries, and examinations can sometimes be
expensive. These doctors are highly trained and dedicated
professionals. One does not easily aquire a 'DVM' following
their name. It is a difficult and arduous process and one
that is not necessarily rewarding along the way. Our vets
drive Volvos, Jeeps, old trucks with peeling paint, elderly
Lincoln town cars, Saabs, and Harley-Davidson motorcycles.
If they have achieved some comfort in their lives and choose
to drive a fine car, it is my opinion as the footsoldier
from the trenches and battlefields of their profession that
they do and have worked extremely hard for the well-being
and comfort of YOUR pets and deserve every inch of steel
and leather.
Mary Devlin
6o%::::::%o(860=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
6o%::%o(8609 Mary A. Devlin - Biotechnology / Biochemistry
o(86098) de...@wpi.edu
(86098)o%:%o9 de...@sidehack.gweep.net
6098)o%:::%o(860
098)o%:::%o(8609 We Have the Technology to Rebuild You.
6o%:%o(86098)
(86098)o Ask me about my MasterPlan[tm]!
6098)o%::%o9 master_pl...@sidehack.gweep.net
098)o%::::::%o9-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Happy...@gl.tfnet.org
In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.961126...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>,
Rompum <de...@wpi.edu> wrote:
> I have worked for 3 years at Abbott Animal hospital,
> that...<snip>
> ...they do and have worked extremely hard for the well-being
> and comfort of YOUR pets and deserve every inch of steel
> and leather.
>
> Mary Devlin
Thanks, Mary, for such a good post. I appreciate my Vet too, and know
that she works hard for, and loves the animals brought to her. Thanks to
all Vets and vet assistants!
CSprout
In article <Happysmyle-26...@rezoloot.seanet.com> Happy...@gl.tfnet.org writes:
>From: Happy...@gl.tfnet.org
>Subject: Re: Pet Owner = Ignoramus (was: Re: VETERINARIANS = WITCH DOCTORS!?)
>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:53:11 -0700
This goes for me to!!
C.
Elaine Gallegos
Rompum <de...@wpi.edu> wrote:
: All of our doctors are intelligent, thorough, completely
: qualified, compassionate, selfless and fair. Oftentimes I
: overhear them discussing how they can lessen the burden of costs
: of hospitalization and medication for their clients.
I'd sure like to know vets like that. The ones I've met keep me waiting
forever on scheduled appointments. Then they do stuff like charge me $300.
to treat an inner ear infection that was probably viral anyway, or want to
run batteries of tests for lethal diseases on a cat with a simple upper
respiratory infection.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elaine Gallegos
sat...@primenet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karen Carloni
> So many believe that veterinarians are unskilled because
> they 'only work on animals.'
It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
school to get into of all of them!
--
Karen C.
onew...@tiac.net
"THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE"
Dogpatch
Karen Carloni wrote:
> It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> school to get into of all of them!
While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
Dogpatch
Boyana Norris
It is truly amazing that anybody feels comfortable trying to promote
an extremely negative stereotype for a profession that is anything
but stereotypical.
I have owned (and still do) many pets, and my occasional visits
to the vet with one pet or another have always left me
with admiration for the great knowledge and compassion of these
people who work so hard to help what most people consider "less
worthy" or "lower than us" creatures. I have interacted with
several different vets, and probably quite a few more human
doctors, and shockingly (to me), I have seen much less "humanity"
in the human branch of the profession. I know that someone
may object by saying that when I am the patient, things look
different, but first, I have on occasions accompanied someone
else to the doctor, and second, I've never been seriously ill.
Anyway, I just couldn't resist sharing some of my
thoughts on the subject, even if no one really cares to read them.
(but it's too late now, since you are near the end :^)
Boyana
(and Peter, Bella, Kumi-Ori, Hugo, Newt, Gingrich, Cannibal, Wimp,
Nasko, Rumi, Viki, Yana, and Johnny, listed in order from mammals
to reptiles to amphibians to fish)
--
_ _ -- Change is inevitable,
/ ) ( \ except from a vending machine.
( ) ( ) (unknown)
|-----oooO---Oooo---------------------------------------------|
| Boyana Radenska Norris |
| rade...@uiuc.edu, http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~radenska/ |
| _ (217) 333-0155 |
|----oOOo-( )-oOOo--------------------------------------------|
( @ @ )
\ /
-/|\-
High Flight
[followup mercifully "clipped" to rpb]
Hal Hawley (grey...@coho.halcyon.com) wrote:
: This thread has been almost as interesting as a B movie that is so poorly
: done that it is actually funny. It's been amazing how many people are
[...]
: VETERINARIANS = WITCH DOCTORS?? Nothing could be more insanely absurd!
No kidding. The initial post was a troll.
- Jack
~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~'~
o/~ "Music is God's voice" )Jack Zupan
)j...@apk.net
- Brian Wilson - ) Keet (^,^)
David L Evens
Karen Carloni (onew...@tiac.net) wrote:
: > So many believe that veterinarians are unskilled because
: > they 'only work on animals.'
: It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
: school to get into of all of them!
In Canada this is definitely true, but mostly because the entire country
only has four vet schools.
In real terms, however, it really IS harder to be a vet on a skill level
equal to an MD, since vets need to know as much as MDs about more species.
--
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
Ring around the neutron, | "OK, so he's not terribly fearsome.
A pocket full of positrons,| But he certainly took us by surprise!"
A fission, a fusion, +--------------------------------------------------
We all fall down! | "Was anybody in the Maquis working for me?"
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
"I'd cut down ever Law in England to get at the Devil!"
"And what man could stand up in the wind that would blow once you'd cut
down all the laws?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message may not be carried on any server which places restrictions
on content.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail will be posted as I see fit.
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lsm...@gte.net
On 1996-11-26 rade...@cs.uiuc.edu said:
>It is truly amazing that anybody feels comfortable trying to promote
>an extremely negative stereotype for a profession that is anything
>but stereotypical.
<snippage>
It all comes down to two things:
1. A veterinarian is a person.
2. A person can be bad or good.
Nuff said?
Larry Smith
lsm...@gte.net
Net-Tamer V 1.07 - Test Drive
COMPUTERCRAFT
Rompum wrote:
>
> I have worked for 3 years at Abbott Animal hospital,
> (about 50 miles southwest of Boston) employing 6
> doctors, 5 veterinary technicians, and 5 veterinary nurses.
>
> qualified, compassionate, selfless and fair.
I'm very happy to hear this BUT THIS IS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
DISCUSSION AT HAND!
If somebody is trying to root out police corruption, nobody should start
yammering about all the good cops. I'm a PC tech. From time to time,
I'll post about the sorry tricks that dishonest PC repair persons will
use to rob and steal. NOBODY IS SILLY ENOUGH TO POST AND E-MAIL ABOUT
HOW GOOD "THEIR" PC TECH IS!!!!
Of course, MOST police, MOST school teachers, MOST auto mechanics, MOST
vets.... are honest.
I'm talking about a growning rot among vets of SOAKING their clients and
allowing their PATIENTS TO SUFFER! The modus operandi of these thieves
is "tests" and useless "treatments."
I think that a lot of vets figger that PET OWNER = IGNORAMUS = PREY FOR
THE UNSCRUPULOUS VET!!!!!
BTW, in the long run, even the crooks are losing money!!!! I know lots
of people that used to spend several hundred dollars a month on vet
bills. They just took this for granted. When these offices started
aggresively pushing $1000s in tests, THAT ALWAYS CAME UP WITH RESULTS
WORTHY OF THE DELPHIC ORACLE (though it might apply, I don't mean Mr.
Ellison!). These people have lost all faith in vets. They buy their
vaccines gray market and do their own innoculating. Is this good?
NO!!! But they got sick and tired of sanctimoniuous scoundrels trying
to use GUILT as a vehicle TO STEAL!!!
--
Anthony Olszewski
PETCRAFT
http://www.petcraft.com
COMPUTERCRAFT
http://www.computercraft.com
VISIT and enter to WIN
a DIAMOND STEALTH, 3D, 2 meg, PCI, SVGA Video Card!
No purchase necessary
jgrape
lsm...@gte.net wrote:
>
> On 1996-11-26 rade...@cs.uiuc.edu said:
> >It is truly amazing that anybody feels comfortable trying to promote
> >an extremely negative stereotype for a profession that is anything
> >but stereotypical.
>
> <snippage>
>
> It all comes down to two things:
>
> 1. A veterinarian is a person.
> 2. A person can be bad or good.
>
> Nuff said?
>
In every class of medical students, there are those at the TOP of their
class, and those at the other end of the spectrum.
Mary Welch
Jeff Hayes/Kristine Weaver DVM
> Karen Carloni wrote:
> > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> > school to get into of all of them!
>
> information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
This was probably deduced from the number of applicants for the number
of freshman slots in vet schools. There are relatively few vet schools
in the country and their classes are small. My wife's graduating class
from Oregon State was only around 30 and of those thirty I think they
all wanted to be vets (ie - no medical school rejects/drop outs) For
the most part vets are caring, concerned individuals who, believe it
or not, are relatively underpaid considering their education and job
requirements.
Jeff Hayes
nmh...@3lefties.com
Jeff Gill
>PETCRAFT
>http://www.petcraft.com
Ever notice how you can always spot the nut cases by their excessive use of
upper case letters and exclamation points?
JeG
S.F. Eley
COMPUTERCRAFT wrote:
>
> If somebody is trying to root out police corruption, nobody should start
> yammering about all the good cops. I'm a PC tech. From time to time,
> I'll post about the sorry tricks that dishonest PC repair persons will
> use to rob and steal. NOBODY IS SILLY ENOUGH TO POST AND E-MAIL ABOUT
> HOW GOOD "THEIR" PC TECH IS!!!!
Ahh. But so far you haven't told us about many "sorry tricks." Nor did
you qualify yourself to say that you were only talking about the
"dishonest" vets. You only said -- and I'm quoting back to the original
source here:
> The USELESS AND EXPENSIVE services offered by vets today would make any
> CRACK DEALER cry with shame and ENVY!
With stupid categorical statements like that, did you really expect a
rallying cry?
And another thing. PERHAPS if you used FEWER CAPITALIZED WORDS, your
AUDIENCE would be LESS LIKELY to think YOU were a TOTAL FLAKE.
Blessings,
_TNX._
C.M.Newell
jgrape <jgr...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
But even the ones at the bottom have to pass board exams to be
licensed to practice. They do have to meet a standard of competency.
--CMNewell
"If truth is impossible, so is the lie
There's no in-between, you can't swim, you can't fly
At the uttermost link at the end of our chain
Only the Strange remain"--R.Hunter
Vera Casteel
In article <329BCD...@imap1.asu.edu>, dogp...@imap1.asu.edu says...
> Karen Carloni wrote:
> > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> > school to get into of all of them!
>
> While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
> information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
>
Actually, I've only heard the other way around. Some people go into human
medical school because they couldn't get into vet school. I tend to
believe this because in vet school, you have to learn about *many*
different animals. In human med school, you only learn what pertains to
*one* animal. Vets have to learn the same things about their patients
that human doctors do, but vets have it harder because they have more
species of patients. A dog and cat aren't the same. You don't treat them
the same when they have medical problems. All humans are made of the same
stuff, so they're all treated relatively the same for each individual
medical problem.
Oh, and I think I saw a 20/20 episode a few years back about this subject
which said basically what I just said in the above paragraph. :)
---
Vera Casteel Electrical Engineering
vcas...@supernet.ab.ca University of Alberta
vcas...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca http://www.supernet.ab.ca/~vcasteel
---
Anonymous
From reading your posts, it sounds more like YOU = IGNORAMUS.
You also sound like you have a mental problem (hence this
anonymous post). The replies these people are making to your
generalization of vets are indeed on point. You just don't like
to hear what they are saying -- that there are more good vets than bad.
>==========COMPUTERCRAFT, 11/26/96==========
>
>Rompum wrote:
>>
>> I have worked for 3 years at Abbott Animal hospital,
>> a modern veterinary facility located in Worcester, MA
>> (about 50 miles southwest of Boston) employing 6
>> doctors, 5 veterinary technicians, and 5 veterinary nurses.
>>
>> All of our doctors are intelligent, thorough, completely
>> qualified, compassionate, selfless and fair.
>SNIP
>
>I'm very happy to hear this BUT THIS IS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
>DISCUSSION AT HAND!
>
>yammering about all the good cops. I'm a PC tech. From time to time,
>I'll post about the sorry tricks that dishonest PC repair persons will
>use to rob and steal. NOBODY IS SILLY ENOUGH TO POST AND E-MAIL ABOUT
>HOW GOOD "THEIR" PC TECH IS!!!!
>
Karen Carloni
Jeff Hayes/Kristine Weaver DVM wrote:
>
> > Karen Carloni wrote:
> > > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> > > school to get into of all of them!
> >
> > While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
> > information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> > couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
>
> of freshman slots in vet schools. There are relatively few vet schools
> in the country and their classes are small. My wife's graduating class
> from Oregon State was only around 30 and of those thirty I think they
> all wanted to be vets (ie - no medical school rejects/drop outs) For
> the most part vets are caring, concerned individuals who, believe it
> or not, are relatively underpaid considering their education and job
> requirements.
>
> Jeff Hayes
> nmh...@3lefties.com
Yes. Thanks Jeff! A vet I used to work for had to resort to going to
school abroad (Philippines if I remember correctly) because the
competition to get into the few vet schools in this country was so
fierce.
PEARL ELSIE ANDERSON
Boyana Norris (rade...@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: worthy" or "lower than us" creatures. I have interacted with
: several different vets, and probably quite a few more human
: doctors, and shockingly (to me), I have seen much less "humanity"
: in the human branch of the profession. I know that someone
: may object by saying that when I am the patient, things look
: different, but first, I have on occasions accompanied someone
: else to the doctor, and second, I've never been seriously ill.
Boyana, I'm replying because your post reminded me of an experience I
once had. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a surgeon. I was
in a program where a few students were paired with professionals in their
prospective field. As a result, I spent two days in a hospital with
a couple surgeons. I was in scrubs, and in the operating room.
What I saw was probably what put me off of a medical career.
Near the end of one operation, I watched one doctor chase another one
around the room, threatening to shoot him in the butt with a staple gun.
During another surgery, the patient was an elderly woman with cancer.
Her abdomen was distended with fluid, and the surgeons had a good old
time cracking jokes about "mount Vesuvius." I happened to know this
woman, as she was a member of my church, and I was quite shocked by
the attitude of those doctors. (And yes, I know that many medical
professionals need to develop a "thick skin" ... I spent three years
working part time as a nursing aide in the skilled nursing unit of
a retirement home. I developed a bit of a skin myself, but nothing so
proactively disrespectful.)
So yes, Boyana is quite right ... there are good and bad in both
vets and MDs. Neither seems to have the market cornered in professional
jerks.
--Pearl (who ended up getting a PhD in Physics instead :)
Blake Rees
I can go to several area feed stores and purchase vaccines. What is this
gray market you mention? And why use it?
Chuck Riccardo
lsm...@gte.net wrote:
>
>On 1996-11-26 rade...@cs.uiuc.edu said:
> >It is truly amazing that anybody feels comfortable trying to promote
> >an extremely negative stereotype for a profession that is anything
> >but stereotypical.
>
><snippage>
>
>It all comes down to two things:
>
>1. A veterinarian is a person.
>2. A person can be bad or good.
>
>Nuff said?
>
As an observer of all of this - I don't believe that anyone is trying to
promote any stereotype of anytbing. Most Professionals of any group are
good, but it doesn't hurt us or them to hear a horror story once in a
while. Communication is like sex - even when it's bad - it's good. CMR
Jeff Jardine
Jeff Hayes/Kristine Weaver DVM (nmh...@3lefties.com) wrote:
: > Karen Carloni wrote:
: > > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
: > > school to get into of all of them!
This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
mathematics program.
JJ
Terri
After following this thread, 2 things have occured to me.
First, I cant imagine continuing to go the the same vet or doctor
if some of this stuff occured to me.
Secondly, after reading about some of this stuff, I am doubly
thankful to my wonderful vet, whom Ive known for 12 years now.
And Im going to tell him so.
Terri
ellen beth kessler
>I'm talking about a growning rot among vets of SOAKING their clients
and
>allowing their PATIENTS TO SUFFER! The modus operandi of these
thieves
>is "tests" and useless "treatments."
>
>I think that a lot of vets figger that PET OWNER = IGNORAMUS = PREY
FOR
>THE UNSCRUPULOUS VET!!!!!
>
I once worked for a vet hospital that changed hands while I was working
there. The new vet was absolutely incredible. He recommended euthanasia
on dogs and cats before all options were opened. He mistook a cockaTOO
for a cockaTIEL. He wanted to amputate a canary's leg without testing
other options. He laughed when a severely injured cockatiel got out of
his grasp and started flying around the exam room, leaking blood from
its broken leg everywhere. He killed a ferret while performing a spay
by badly nicking an artery. The list goes on and on. It made all of us
insane. The other vets seriously wondered if he WAS a vet. Fortunately,
enough complaints came in that he was finally let go and he disappeared
into the woodwork.
When I told some of these miserable stories to my avian vet, he said
"out of a class of 100 graduating vets, someone has to be number 100."
So, yes, there are bad vets out there...and there are very very bad
vets out there. But the good ones more than make up for it.
Ellen K
ellen beth kessler
In <57fmmi$q...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Elaine Gallegos
<sat...@primenet.com> writes:
>
>Rompum <de...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>: All of our doctors are intelligent, thorough, completely
>: qualified, compassionate, selfless and fair. Oftentimes I
>: overhear them discussing how they can lessen the burden of costs
>: of hospitalization and medication for their clients.
>
>
> I'd sure like to know vets like that. The ones I've met keep me
waiting
>forever on scheduled appointments. Then they do stuff like charge me
$300.
>to treat an inner ear infection that was probably viral anyway, or
want to
>run batteries of tests for lethal diseases on a cat with a simple
upper
>respiratory infection.
>--
>
has compassion for both the animal and its human. There are several
vets within walking distance of where I live, but I take my birds to a
vet who is nearly one hour away. I would never continue supporting a
vet who overcharges and keeps you waiting. Keep looking; they're out
there, and it won't take you long to find a good one. Promise.
Ellen K
COMPUTERCRAFT
Blake Rees wrote:
>
> I can go to several area feed stores and purchase vaccines. What is this
> gray market you mention? And why use it?
In some states it is not easy (if not illegal) to purchase vaccines
without a vet license.
Dorine Ann McKinnon
>
>Ever notice how you can always spot the nut cases by their excessive
use of
>upper case letters and exclamation points?
>
NO!!! REALLY????
Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Dorine.
Dorine Ann McKinnon
The bottom line here is;
If you don't like the vet you have then switch to another. If you
think that the vet you use is a crook, then switch to another. If you
feel you have been overcharged or do not like the business practices of
the vet you use, then switch to another. No-one is going to drag you
back to his office and force you to spend your money there. He is
better off without your business, if you have no respect for his
opinion or practice, and the same can be said for you.
One of two things will happen if you follow this advise, either you
will find a vet that you feel better doing business with, or you will
keep switching vets, thus not inflicting misery on any one for to long
a period of time. Good Luck in your search. Dorine.
cattski
> > Karen Carloni wrote:
> > > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> > > school to get into of all of them!
> >
> > information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> > couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
Yes, harder- part due to the limeted # of schools/slots for students-- many
MD wanna-bees go to other countries to study and get thrugh school. I know
several MD's who first wanted to be Vets- and did not get in- and after a lot
of the math/science were out of the way- decided to go into human medicine.
Remember- a person can tell you what is wrong with them, what hurts, what
has been going on... a Vet has to find out for himself.
(On a similar note- I work in a hospital where 2 of our lab techs are
people who did not have the grades to go into vet tech!) The collage
encouraged students who did not make the vet-tech cut to go on and be lab
techs!
Let me see now...
jgrape <jgr...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
>lsm...@gte.net wrote:
>>
>> On 1996-11-26 rade...@cs.uiuc.edu said:
>> >It is truly amazing that anybody feels comfortable trying to promote
>> >an extremely negative stereotype for a profession that is anything
>> >but stereotypical.
>>
>> <snippage>
>>
>> It all comes down to two things:
>>
>> 1. A veterinarian is a person.
>> 2. A person can be bad or good.
>>
>> Nuff said?
>>
>> Larry SmithNot quite...
>In every class of medical students, there are those at the TOP of their
>class, and those at the other end of the spectrum.
>Mary Welch
But even vets that may have been at the lower end can often be better
then academically inclined ones.
Communication skills and compassion and caring for both the patient
and the owner as well as vet skills is much better in my opinion then
the vet that got 100% in everything and cant be nice and caring to
someone or their animal.
Kim
COMPUTERCRAFT
>
> >
> >Ever notice how you can always spot the nut cases by their excessive
> use of
> >upper case letters and exclamation points?
> >
>
Gee whiz, if I'd like known that the ARBITER OF PUBLIC VALUES WAS IN THE
AUDIENCE,
I might have tried to be on good behavior, or something!!!!
BTW, is your position derived through election? I must have forgot to
vote!!!
--
Anthony Olszewski
Leora
I missed alot of this thread but I LOVE my vet. He is sensitive, more
knowledgeable than I am and he goes over every detail of a problem with
me when my bird is at risk. I do agree that if one chooses to be a pet
owner then you should be willing to ask as many questions as you can
think of, even if you think they are stupid! I do it all the time. Yes,
there are always bad apples in the bunch but I believe that most people
who become vets have good intentions as well as great skill. I highly
respect them and my vet has my deepest gratitude as well.
--
-- peace
Lauren Owens
jgrape wrote:
>
> In every class of medical students, there are those at the TOP of their
> class, and those at the other end of the spectrum.
>
> Mary Welch
Just because someone is at the top of their class doesn't necessarily
mean they are caring or a "good" vet...only that they have the knowledge
down better.
-lauren
Ian Kerfoot
> While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
> information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
On the other hand, I know of one gal who started out wanting
to go to veterinary school, and switched into human medicine
for two reasons. First, human medicine pays a lot better. The
other reason is that she claims it is easier to get into the
human medical schools than veterinary ones. I am not sure
whether or not her appraisal of the relative difficulty of
gaining admission to human and vet medical schools is based
on institutions of comparable caliber in their field, or if
it is a good vet school vs a lousy human one.
Ian Kerfoot
Ian Kerfoot
> This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
> of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
> mathematics program.
I have known several people who became medical students, in
human medicine. Two of them had skills at math and physics
on par with the low end of average for an engineer, but they
were quite good at biology. The other was the best engineering
student I have known, who just got sick of engineering. The
talents needed in medicine are not quite the same as those
needed of an engineer, so it is not surprising that the best
at one is not necessarily the best at the other.
Ian Kerfoot
Cyohtee
Lauren Owens <arli...@cajun.net> wrote:
The person who graduates from medical school at the TOP of the class
is called the Validictorian. The one who graduates at the BOTTOM of
the class is just called Doctor....
Cyohtee and Samson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cyo...@tezcat.com http://www.tezcat.com/~cyohtee
Human Custodian of the wellbeing of Sam, a very happy and healthy
Brittny Spaniel/Collie Mix, and my best friend.
"Maybe she'll find and Island, with a shady tree,
Just like the one in our back yard" - "Shannon" c.1976 Henry Gross
Scott Nelson
Dorine Ann McKinnon wrote:
>
> The bottom line here is;
> If you don't like the vet you have then switch to another. If you
> think that the vet you use is a crook, then switch to another. If you
> feel you have been overcharged or do not like the business practices of the vet you use, then switch to another.
> will find a vet that you feel better doing business with, or you will
> keep switching vets, thus not inflicting misery on any one for to long
> a period of time. Good Luck in your search. Dorine.
I doubt than any of the people that related the horror stories of
crooked or incompetent vets decided to stay with that vet and who
exactly was "inflicting misery" on any of them? It seems to me that a
client that wastes hundreds or thousands of dollars is doing the cheat a
favour. What was your point?
Suzanne
James L. Ryan
In article <329C29...@computercraft.com>, ao...@computercraft.com wrote:
[snip]
: Of course, MOST police, MOST school teachers, MOST auto mechanics, MOST
: vets.... are honest.
[snip]
Which means that only a small MINORITY of police, a small MINORITY of
school teachers, a small MINORITY of auto mechanics, a small MINORITY of
vets....are dishonest.
Given that veterinarians, as is true with those in almost any profession,
function in a free market economy, it becomes the responsibility of the
consumer to exercise judgment when selecting their veterinarian. And, if
one thinks a veterinarian is running an unscrupulous practice, it is one's
duty to make such known to the appropriate state licensing board, to the
American Veterinary Medical Association, to the American Veterinary
Hospital Association, to the local Better Business Bureau, to the local
Chamber of Commerce, and so on.
--
James L. Ryan
Dorine Ann McKinnon
I have a couple of *points* here the first one being that no-one
dragged anyone kicking and screaming to any of these vets that are
accused of being crooked or incompetent. They were not forced to spend
their money there, and if they felt that they did not like the vet,
they should have declined the treatment and went to another one. Only
after the bill was tallied did all hell break loose. Do you not
wonder, as I do what would be the other side of the story, or do you
swallow it hook, line, and sinker? Even a crimminal would get more of
a chance to prove innocence than some here are instigating.
From experience with dealing with the general public I know that many
tend to exagerate what happens & to make it sound worse that what
actually had happened. These people are not bad, they either forgot
what was said or were so worried that they did not pay attention to
what was said, or in their haste to get treatment started, they told
the vet to just fix it.
On the other hand, I know of no vet that is a mindreader, & if you are
worried about paying for expensive treatments, it is up to you to bring
this up. If you don't understand the treatment or chances of survival
it is up to you to bring this up. If you don't know what the disease is
it is up to you to bring this up.
Yes veterinarian treatment is expensive, lab work costs the same as it
would for you or me and no breaks are given just because the patient is
an animal. The same medications that we give our children are used on
our pets and no discount is given. The vet has nothing to do with this.
The specialized equipment that must be used in the detection of disease
cost just as much for a vet to buy as for your own doctor.
My point is that before we pass judgement on one side of any story, we
should at least try to be fair to the side that is not here to speak.
Dorine.
snooz
>
>> While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
>> information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
>> couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
>
When I was trying to get into vet school (2 years ago) there was only
one school that I had even a chance of getting into--the one in my state.
Most of the schools are state college schools and give preference to
applicants from their state (1st) and applicants from states without
vet schools. Medical students, OTOH, can apply to and be accepted to
*any* medical schools. (I have yet to meet a doctor who attended med
school in their home state!)
snooz
Charles H. Gilmour
Rompum <de...@wpi.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.ULT.3.95.961126...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>...
>
>
> I have worked for 3 years at Abbott Animal hospital,
> a modern veterinary facility located in Worcester, MA
> (about 50 miles southwest of Boston) employing 6
> doctors, 5 veterinary technicians, and 5 veterinary nurses.
etc, etc, etc...
HOORAY! Great response!
Sincerely,
Charlotte and Charles
Shirley/Rick
In article <57rlup$1...@mochi.lava.net>, jha...@lava.net .antibot.trailer
(James R. Olson, jr.) wrote:
> There are good vets and bad vets. The bad ones assume that you don't
> want to know what's going on. Prices are generally based on the vet's
> regular clientele. If the vet deals with show types, his charges are
> likely to be higher than if he deals with middle class mutts.
>
> JimmyO
I worked for a vet for 10 years. If they charge "some" people (i.e., "show
types") more for the same procedure than they do other people (i.e., mutt
owners) just because of who they are, they're in REALLY big trouble.
--Shirley
"Toto ... do you suppose there is such a place?" --Dorothy
Scott Nelson
> >Dorine Ann McKinnon wrote:
> >>
> >> The bottom line here is;
> >> If you don't like the vet you have then switch to another. If you
in your search. Dorine.
> >
> > What was your point?
> >
> >Suzanne
> I have a couple of *points* here the first one being that no-one
> dragged anyone kicking and screaming to any of these vets that are
> accused of being crooked or incompetent. They were not forced to spend
> their money there, and if they felt that they did not like the vet,
> they should have declined the treatment and went to another one. Only
> after the bill was tallied did all hell break loose.
> Dorine.
My original post described my mother's dog suffering from cancer for two
months while the vet never told her it was cancer. Another story was
from a woman whose vet LIED to her about the condition of her dog.
Another post was about...Shall I go on? I am not talking about bad
service, or the fact that people get ripped off. I know that my mother
liked her vet before all this happened and why shouldn't she. For
twelve years, all he had to do was give the dog his shots and a
physical. Kind of hard to screw that up, isn't it, unless you are a
total idiot. What upsets most pet owners is the thought, which was what
I expressed in my first post on this subject, was that the dog suffered
needlessly. The dog going through all that pain and unnecessary tests
was hurtful to my family, painful that the dog suffered and the vet did
not tell them he was dying. Do you understand what I am saying?? It
wasn't the money, but it seems to me that the only motivation for the
vets holding back the information that the dog was dying was money.
That is wrong, whatever way you put it. Why should my mother ask "Is
there any chance he has cancer?" when she had no idea what the symptoms
of cancer were in a dog. After the vet said "The tests showed nothing
wrong" should my mother have said "Are you sure? Do you know what you
are doing? You aren't trying to rip me off, are you?" No, she trusted
him. Do you question people you trust implicitly? I doubt it.
Money has nothing to do with it. And I think most people with bad
experiences with vets would feel offended by your implication that money
is the only motivator here. BTW, are you a vet??
Suzanne
Jill
I'm not any kind of expert on vets, but this is what works for me.
Find yourself a vet that you are comfortable with, AND that also goes
for your pet.
I've taken my pets to a few different vets over the years. Anytime I
felt uncomfortable with anything the vet did I didn't go back. I
rejected vets for different reasons...not explaining things, not
spending enough time with the animal, not enough compassion for the
animal or the owner, price, general personality, how the animal
responds, etc. If anything bothers you, or your animal move on!
I found a vet that my animal & I are both comfortable with. He
explains what is going on, cost, possible side effects, & possible
outcomes with me, and treats my animals like they are important and
not just another vaccination. If I forget to ask anything in the
office (which I do a lot) I know I can call & he will talk to me. The
people in the office pay attention, know the animals, and the owners.
I guess the idea is, find a vet you trust *before* there is an
emergency, then you won't be second guessing.
Jill
zb...@orci.com
Chuck Riccardo
cm...@cornell.edu wrote:.>You have some nerve criticizing the veterinary
profession.
*Have you ever
*been behind the scenes as a vet tech or a doctor? Didn't think so! First
*off, vet students don't get any help in paying for their extreme
*educational bills. There is also no insurance for animals like there is
*for people. Vets are not miracle workers, but if the problem can be
*>solved, we do it the best way we know how. Until you have been there,
why
*don't you keep your mouth shut? I am peeved by people who shout out their
*remarks without having done their research. If your opinion is
different,
*fine, but make sure you have your facts straight. Grow up.
*A concerned party
-----------------------------------------
O'Connor <woco...@wwdc.com> wrote:
|Hi, friends:
|One thing to keep in mind in this debate is that veterinarians, like
|other professionals, are deeply involved in their work and often think in
|terms of "diagnosis and treatment" instead of "beloved pet, concerned
|owner, best outcome." Some vets (docs, dentists) can get around this way
|of thinking - others can't. To guard against this, one must be one's own
|(and one's pet's) advocate.
|For instance: after moving to a new city, I took my 18 year old cat to a
|new vet for vaccinations. She was feeble and did not go outside much, so
|I was prepared to ask if vaccinations were still necessary. The vet
|examined the cat, said he detected a breathing problem, and suspected a
|cancer in the thorax region. I was concerned, of course, and consented
|to a battery of tests for diagnosis (xrays and blood tests). I consented
|even though the money was coming from my food budget, and I did not have
|a new job yet. After all, after 18 years, I felt I owed my pet the best
|care.
|$400 later, the vet did not detect any cancer. He did say her thyroid
|was too high (common in aged cats), and sold me some pills which were to
|be given three times a day, and would "slow her down some." Now, really,
|if we slowed down this old girl she would be comatose! She could hardly
|move as it was, and spent her days happily dozing.
|He also detected grave kidney and liver insufficiency, again not a
|surprise. He said, "she is a real senior citizen!"
|What did we gain? I don't think the vet meant any harm - after all, he
|was practising his trade. I also think he was curious as to what the
|test results would reveal in a cat as elderly as mine. The cancer scare
|was a bit of a red herring - what if she did have cancer? Would it be
|likely to lower the life expectancy of an elderly 18 year-old cat by
|much? We would hardly have undertaken radical treatment at her age. And
|she was not in pain.
|Had I been on my toes I would have considered these things before
|spending the money, and the outcome for my dear cat would have been the
|same. She lived another 18 happy months, withOUT being wakened three
|times a day for thyroid pills, thank you. What a silly suggestion.
|>So, without slamming vets, I say: let the buyer beware.
|-- W. O'Connor ***CANADA***
------------------------------------
Much kinder to Vets than cm...@cornell.edu was on the rest of us!!!!
AND much kinder than I would have been on the Vet.
After reading our many replies, I wonder if "cornell.edu" would care to
recant the harsh criticism posted above ??????? CM Riccardo ^..^
Let me see now...
>My original post described my mother's dog suffering from cancer for two
>months while the vet never told her it was cancer.
Suzanne,
Im not trying to explain for any vets here but where I work
occasionally I see the vets think an animal has some form of cancer
but of course they have to run tests to verify it and sometimes these
tests come back negative.
The vet can tell the owner that the animal may have a form of cancer
but they cant offer treatment options or a definate diagnosis without
tests for confirmation. Sometimes the initial tests show nothing and
the animal has to be referred to a specialist.
Im sorry the vet didnt inform you mum that the dog had some form of
cancer but it is possible that the vet didnt know if all the tests
came back showning no signs of it.
Kim
Tracy Bell
While I'm not sure that motive is true for vet students in Australia, I do
know that medicine is the harder to get into than vet but not by much.
Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote in article
<329BCD...@imap1.asu.edu>...
> Karen Carloni wrote:
> > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> > school to get into of all of them!
>
> While I'm not trying to put down the profession, where do you get this
> information? I know of several vets who went into it because they
> couldn't get accepted in (human) medical school.
>
> Dogpatch
>
Dorine Ann McKinnon
>
>
>My original post described my mother's dog suffering from cancer for
two
No, I am not a vet, I am a birdbreeder who also works part time to help
support my family (birds, dogs and husband too). I do not work for the
vet I use, nor have I ever worked for or as a vet (no I didn't drop out
of vet school either).
I am not trying to split hairs here, but I am going to point out that I
seem to remember expense being part of the complaint. If nothing was
mentioned about money I apologize, but I thought that it was.
I still am not willing to judge an anonomous person, based on hearsay
from a second or third party, who may, or may not have been present. I
know of to many instances in which people exaggerate in order to make
things sound worse and get a greater response from the audience (this
is the internet isn't it?). In this particular case, for example, how
do you know for sure that the vet in question even knew that the animal
had cancer. Perhaps he didn't tell your mother because the tests that
he ran did not indicate cancer. I am also not faulting your mother for
anything, as she was only trying to do her best to make her beloved dog
well. But it is not the vets fault the dog had cancer, and it is not
his fault that the tests came back without showing it.
You say that the reason you are so angry is because the dog suffered
for two months with his cancer before he died, am I correct here?(this
is *not* sarcasm) So are you angry because the vet didn't find out in
time to treat the cancer, or are you angry because he shouldn't have
gone through all the testing if the dog was dying, or are you angry
that he died? If the vet's testing did not show cancer how can he
justify treating for it? Guess a diagnosis? I don't think that you
would have been happy with that one either. So you see, I really don't
see anyway that this vet could have done differently with what you have
stated here.
I understand that you are angry and you believe that the vet did
something wrong, but I don't think that you understand my very valid
point of not wanting to persecute someone based on what someone else
says in the heat of anger. I do believe that you have unreasonable
expectations of the vet in question. I am not saying this to be mean,
but because this thread is vet bashing, and I simply do not agree with
it.
I am sure that you are probably just as furious with me by now, and I
am sorry, but I still am not convinced. Do not mistake this for a lack
of compassion for both you and your mother (and the others who posted
that they had problems with their own vets), as I feel badly for your
loss. We just have different perspectives of this issue. Dorine.
Mike Balsai
> On the other hand, I know of one gal who started out wanting
> to go to veterinary school, and switched into human medicine
> for two reasons. First, human medicine pays a lot better. The
> other reason is that she claims it is easier to get into the
> human medical schools than veterinary ones. I am not sure
> whether or not her appraisal of the relative difficulty of
> gaining admission to human and vet medical schools is based
> on institutions of comparable caliber in their field, or if
> it is a good vet school vs a lousy human one.
>
Well there are about 14 vet schools in the country. There are
significantly more medical schools. What do you think? I know here at
Penn's vet school they turn down many applicants each year. Many are
several time applicants before they actually get in.
Mike Balsai
(I am not in either medical or veterinary svchool)
jeremy grossbard
Totally incorrect......there are 26 vet schools in the US and
canada.....yes it is true that vet school is in general more difficult to
get into than med school............Vets do not in general get the respect
they deserve....but thats a whole different issue.......It is sad but true
that vets get paid very little as compared to our human doctor
counterparts....we know as much as them and have similar training....but
society does not value animal health the way it does human health......
Jeremy (soon to be graduated DVM from Colorado State
University)
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Christopher Healy wrote:
> 14 !!! Try living in Canada , there is 4 . And depending on where you live
> you can only go to one of them . I live in Newfoundland and I can only go
> to UPEI , which BTW only takes 1 Newfie a year .
>
>
>
>
Ann Hamilton
On 27 Nov 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
> Jeff Hayes/Kristine Weaver DVM (nmh...@3lefties.com) wrote:
> : > Karen Carloni wrote:
> : > > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> : > > school to get into of all of them!
> : >
> This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
> of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
> mathematics program.
> JJ
>
In the freshman year of Veterinary (note the spelling) Medical School
almost a quarter is devoted to the physics of radiography and ultrasound.
In addition, there is a quarter of epidemiology which includes
statistical analysis and sophmore year includes pharmacokinetics first
quarter which requires differential calculus. Plus a good deal of laser
tissue interaction is studied if one wishes to become adept in laser
surgery. Not to mention PCR (polymerase chain reaction) technology for
DNA testing, Flouressent microscopy, EM etc. I don't believe there is any
question as to whether or not a veterinary student could earn a Ph.D. in
mathematics or physics if she or he so chose. In fact some of my
classmates are earning simultaneous Ph.Ds in physics while earning a
doctorate of veterinary medicine.
The average of my class's GPA is a 3.7, average of the last two years of
undergraduate science courses 3.9, average GRE score general 92%, and GRE
Biology subject 90%. Most average 800 or greater hours experience in a
variety of settings which utilize veterinary expertise (small animal
hospitals, large animal hospitals, zoos, wildlife conservation, biomedical
research etc.) Some of my classmates already have PhD degrees (primarily
in genetics and biochemistry) Veterinary Schools draw highly qualified
applicants because many of us have a deep rooted desire to work with
animals...not to rip off clients or steal (I think there are probably more
lucrative professions for this type of "work")
For the "IGNORAMIOUS" that wrote the original complaint about his or her
veterinarian's perscribed treatment or suggested diagnostic work there are
real agencies that address such issues, just as in human medicine. There
is the American Veterinary Medical Association nationally, and the local
and state associations as well as the State Board of Examiners (Consumer
Affairs division) I agree that it is good policy to either explain costs
of therapy or have a staff member do it. But I would also like to say
that it is a rare event for a physician to explain all the costs for
services to me as a patient.
I would also like to point out that in the price of an office visit there
are many hidden costs. The overhead to run the facility and the cost of
the doctor's education (which imparts the knowledge necessary of that
species to give a tentative diagnosis) The average veterinary student
leaves school with a debt of $60,000 and only makes $30,000 annually.
Think of that... you have to love the profession to undertake 27 to 30
units per quarter graduate work for four years, a monsterous debt which
will take years to repay with little hope of being as rich as an M.D. who
will be earning a 6 figure income.
Finally I would like to leave you all with this thought, how many mothers
of four or more children consider themselves peditricians? None probably.
Yet many animal trainers, breeders and owners think of themselves as
quasi-veterinarians from there experience and practice medicine on their
animals and friends animals. Only chosing to go to the veterinarian when
there is little else to be done (the animal almost dead) Leaving the
veterinarian to be the savior if they perform miracle or the ignoramious
if there is nothing left to be done > > >
OBVC
In article <mbalsai-0212...@shubinlab.sas.upenn.edu>,
mba...@postofice.sas.upenn.edu says...
>Well there are about 14 vet schools in the country.
<snip>
>
>Mike Balsai
>(I am not in either medical or veterinary svchool)
Actually the number is closer to 29, but still far fewer than medical
schools! Thanks Mike!
David L Evens
Mike Balsai (mba...@postofice.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
: > On the other hand, I know of one gal who started out wanting
: > to go to veterinary school, and switched into human medicine
: > for two reasons. First, human medicine pays a lot better. The
: > other reason is that she claims it is easier to get into the
: > human medical schools than veterinary ones. I am not sure
: > whether or not her appraisal of the relative difficulty of
: > gaining admission to human and vet medical schools is based
: > on institutions of comparable caliber in their field, or if
: > it is a good vet school vs a lousy human one.
: Well there are about 14 vet schools in the country. There are
: significantly more medical schools. What do you think? I know here at
: Penn's vet school they turn down many applicants each year. Many are
: several time applicants before they actually get in.
Guelph's vet school (one of only four in Canada) is the same way.
--
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William A. Killian
This is getting REALLY annoying. Troll city.
On 27 Nov 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
> Jeff Hayes/Kristine Weaver DVM (nmh...@3lefties.com) wrote:
> : > Karen Carloni wrote:
> : > > It is so sad that the above is true. Vet school is the HARDEST medical
> : > > school to get into of all of them!
> : >
> This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
> of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
> mathematics program.
And gosh I bet 90% of them would really suck at a violin school....
Silly point. But also wrong since statistics and other mathmatical
courses are a part of medical programs. Oh I'm a computer science
mathematics graduate (JMU). My father is a mathmematics graduate (BS MS
Washington U in St. Louis) and my grandfather was a vet. Seems we do all
have the same basic intellectual skills so I do speak from some knowledge
base. To throw a curve my mother and I both were in music programs at
school - reality hit so I switched majors for the job market.
You got good vets you got not so good vets. You also have excellent vets
and you have really bad vets. Move ahead with your lives. Talk drivel
in drivel groups without so much cross posting. (So I'm a hypocrit for
adding in... its the American Newsgroup way)
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
mailto:kil...@zenferret.com mailto:kil...@mnsinc.com
http://www.zenferret.com/
Christopher Healy
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, jeremy grossbard wrote:
> Totally incorrect......there are 26 vet schools in the US and
> canada.....
Hmmmm... Did I say US and CANADA ? No I said 4 in C-A-N-A-D-A .
1 vet school in UPEI
1 vet school in Guelph (sorry for the spelling)
1 french vet school in Quebec
1 vet school in U of Sask.
snooz
In order to apply to vet school, the applicant must have passed
(and had decent grades, considering the competition): Statistics,
Trigonometry, Calculus, Inorganic Chem 1&2, Organic Chem 1&2,
and Physics 1&2. Not exactly courses for ignoramuses.
Scott Nelson
Dorine Ann McKinnon wrote:
>
> We just have different perspectives of this issue. Dorine.
>
I am guessing that you have never had a bad experience with a vet. I
haven't either. I am no longer angry about my mothers loss. I was angry
that my mother suffered and so did the dog. The fact that you and a few
other posters may find it hard to believe these experiences that people
have had with bad vets is fine, that is your prerogative. But the point
I think people were trying to make is that there are bad vets and the
fact that some people find that to be unbelievable is quite odd. I know
there are good vets, I never said there weren't. I am quite sure that
most vets are honest, caring people that love animals. But even those
lucky pet owners with wonderful vets to take care of their animals have
to admit that there are those exceptions out there. Even tho I have
never personally had a bad experience, I know that they exist (the bad
ones). A few years ago, I went to a vet with a friend who just got a
puppy. The vet had never heard of crate training. Another friend had a
vet who wanted $500 to clean the tartar off 4 teeth. She went to
another vet for a second opinion and two of the teeth were so rotten,
they required extraction. (I know, why should you believe me?) But why
should I lie? I serves no purpose. I just hope that I continue to be
lucky where my dog is concerned and never have to go through what some
people have.
Suzanne
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
Scott Nelson (sne...@netcom.ca) wrote:
: another vet for a second opinion and two of the teeth were so rotten,
: they required extraction. (I know, why should you believe me?) But why
That doesn't mean either vet was bad. When there's serious tartar
there often are rotten teeth that need extraction too, and no one can
tell till the tartar gets cleared out of the way.
Avatar
Scott Nelson (sne...@netcom.ca) wrote:
: Kind of hard to screw that up, isn't it, unless you are a
: I expressed in my first post on this subject, was that the dog suffered
: needlessly. The dog going through all that pain and unnecessary tests
: was hurtful to my family, painful that the dog suffered and the vet did
: not tell them he was dying.
Perhaps the vet wasn't sure. Many tests can give inconclusive or even
bogus results due to unrelated conditions or circumstances at the time of
a test. If you went to a doctor complaining of a fever, but took some
aspirin just an hour before hand which brought your fever down, he would
not see evidence of a fever. Does that mean the doctor is incompetent or
trying to cheat you?? No it doesn't. Animals cannot directly tell a vet
what is wrong or where it hurts or how it hurts. That is why the
profession is considered to be tougher than the human medical profession.
: Do you understand what I am saying?? It
: wasn't the money, but it seems to me that the only motivation for the
: vets holding back the information that the dog was dying was money.
You say that "it seems to me that the only motiviation...". Do you have
actual proof of that, or could it in fact have been that the vet was
hopeful that the animal would not die?? I have had pets that I have done
everything I can for in the hopes of helping them overcome some serious
illness or the like only to lose them. I've never blamed my vets, because
ultimately it is MY choice as a pet owner to determine the course of
treatment that my pets get.
: That is wrong, whatever way you put it. Why should my mother ask "Is
: there any chance he has cancer?" when she had no idea what the symptoms
: of cancer were in a dog. After the vet said "The tests showed nothing
: wrong" should my mother have said "Are you sure? Do you know what you
: are doing? You aren't trying to rip me off, are you?" No, she trusted
: him. Do you question people you trust implicitly? I doubt it.
:
This is your mother's fault. As a ferret and rat owner I have read as
moany books as I can on both of my usual companions animals. I am aware
of what certain signs of illness can mean and how serious such symptoms
can be. Usually when I take the animal to the vet I already have a pretty
good idea what is wrong and I am going to the vet for treatment and a
confirmation. I regularly share information on new ferret pahtology
information from the internet with my vet because we are both always
expanding our knowledge to stay better informed for the continued health
of my fuzzies and the health of my vets other fuzzy patients too. When
the vet said "The tests show nothing wrong", if there were still obvious
sypmtoms then your mother, as the pets primary care giver should have
stated "Well the symptoms are still present, what other tests can be
done?" Of course this comes back again to paying more for more services
before the animal's final passing.
: Money has nothing to do with it. And I think most people with bad
: experiences with vets would feel offended by your implication that money
: is the only motivator here. BTW, are you a vet??
:
You seem to think that money has a lot to do with the vet's decision to
forge ahead to try and find something wrong. Would you have rather had
the vet say, right up front that, "Your dog is going to die, I'm not sure
by what, but he'll be dead soon so I'm not going to bother and try to
figure out why beacuse it will just cost you extra money anyway and I
don't want to do that."?? It seems that you are annoyed that the vet
pushed ahead to try and find out what was wrong, and it cost more and now
you'r complaining because you think the vet only wanted to get more money
out of you at the dog's expense. It sounds like money has a lot to do
with it.
As a pet owner you must make sure that you are well versed in the animals
you keep. Sometimes the slightest of signs can mean the difference
between a pet illness being cured when possible or getting to an incurable
stage when the symptoms are really obvious. As a part of this, a pet
owner needs to have a good relationship with their vet. I have two vets
one for my rats and another for my ferrets. I call both of them regularly
with questions and concerns. That is the way it is supposed to work. If
the vet doesn't do what it takes to keep me satisfied that my pets are her
primary concern, I look for another vet recommendation. I have been in
emergency hospitals that refused to even ask me what was wrong with a pet
until I paid the emergency fee up front (which is wrong IMO). I've never
gone back to them and have found other emergency hospitals that I know I'm
going to have to pay, but who act on my pet emergency BEFORE asking for
the payment. That makes all the difference to me.
Be a smart consumer and find a vet that does the job the right way, and
does it well, and stop lumping all vets into a single category of cheats
and scum, because that generalization is totally incorrect.
Avatar
COMPUTERCRAFT
Ann Hamilton wrote:
SNIP
>
> For the "IGNORAMIOUS" that wrote the original complaint about his or her
> veterinarian's perscribed treatment or suggested diagnostic work there are
> real agencies that address such issues, just as in human medicine. There
> is the American Veterinary Medical Association nationally, and the local
> and state associations as well as the State Board of Examiners (Consumer
> Affairs division)
And I thought that my spelling was bad!
Watch out with the personal attacks.
Once I was involved in a law suit. The defendants attorney was fishing
around for some test of my mental competancy, to get the case thrown
out. I did not need to be asked twice. The result was that I got
certified as having a genius-class IQ. The legal case went in my favor.
I'm ignorant of all sorts of things - hundreds of languages, all sorts
of scientific and mathematical techniques... - but when I relate an
observation, IT HAPPENED!
The vet board in NJ is a sorry farce. The "proceedings" are held behind
closed doors! Only the vet is allowed to attend. The person that
brought the complaint is specifically NOT ALLOWED IN! No transcripts
are made available. The result of the hearing is sent, after a long
delay, with NO EXPLANATION of the deliberations.
One owner of a vet clinic in NYC boasted that she had no fear of law
suits, since neutered animals had no value, as far as the courts were
concerned.
It is VERY hard to sue a vet for even the grossest malpractice. Very
few lawyers, as opposed to human medical malpractice, would take the
case.
And as can be seen, veterinarians don't seem to have much inclination as
a group to get rid of any bad apples. The contrast with the legal
profession is very striking. In NJ the Bar Association vigorously and
agressively pursues complaints. The Bar also has a fund for victims of
"criminal" attorneys.
Vets, considering the average person's lack of any sort if scientific
education, can easily resort to jargon to confuse the client. THis
makes it very easy to pose as a hig priest. Vets also have access to
emotionally distraught people that are very easy to exploit.
For these reasons the HIGHEST degree of professional and business ethics
should be DEMANDED of ALL veterinarians. The vet's conduct is the
VET'S responsibility! It should not be up to the client, particularly
in a time of distress, to make sure that the vet is playing fair.
As I mentioned several times, in the computer groups I've pointed out
the thievery practiced by dishonest computer techs. People were happy
to hear about it. Nobody posted how THEIR tech was a saint. No techs
posted about how hard the job is!
--
Anthony Olszewski
COMPUTERCRAFT
For PC Upgrade and Repair information
http://www.computercraft.com
PETCRAFT
For TOTAL Companion Animal Care information
http://www.petcraft.com
jeremy grossbard
Although some of what you say may be correct, I truely feel that you take
one or two "bad apples" and make a case against the entire
profession....we are concerned about malpractice and most of us try to
practice high quality medicine....those who don't do not survive in the
profession very long. If you look at the American Vet Med Assoc.
liability insurance trust record...you will see that vets get sued and
loose all the time.....not as much as human doctors do, but I doubt that
it is as difficult as you make it out to be...one simply needs to show
that the vet was "grossly negligent" or did not at least meet the
"standard accepted level of care" that our profession demands.....if a vet
keeps good records, then it should be easy for that person to defend
himself or be shown to be in the wrong....if the vet keeps poor records,
then that I believe is another strike against them....
It seems to me that all these people have bad experiences with
vets....you bring up a good point, about emotionally distraught people
at times of crises.....however, in this situation, people often do not
listen well, "only hear what they want to", etc...is it possible that
clients are well informed by the vet, but have selective hearing.....I can
not tell you how often people tell us things that another vet said that
sound so outrageous that I must believe there is no way it can be
true....one could not graduate from vet school if they were telling
clients some of the info I have heard.....In addition, these computer
foums do not help...many lay folk on here give advice which is totally
outrageous, but people take it for fact and assume their vet was
wrong.........medicine...both for human and animals is as much art as
science...we do not have all the answers and as vets we are at a
disadvantage as our paitents can not tell us where it hurts, etc...
thanks for listening...Jeremy A. Grossbard DVM (to be, may 1997)
Jeff Jardine
William A. Killian (kil...@user1.mnsinc.com) wrote:
: On 27 Nov 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
: > This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
: > of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
: > mathematics program.
: And gosh I bet 90% of them would really suck at a violin school....
: Silly point. But also wrong since statistics and other mathmatical
: courses are a part of medical programs. Oh I'm a computer science
: mathematics graduate (JMU). My father is a mathmematics graduate (BS MS
: Washington U in St. Louis) and my grandfather was a vet. Seems we do all
: have the same basic intellectual skills so I do speak from some knowledge
: base. To throw a curve my mother and I both were in music programs at
: school - reality hit so I switched majors for the job market.
Yes, it is a silly point.
I'm not trying to denounce the chosen career paths of anyone - I'm just
suggesting that vets get off their high horses and realize they aren't
above the rest of us. I stand by my statement: I'll bet 80% of all
veterinary grads would flunk out of what I'm doing right now. To be fair,
I strongly doubt that I could manage in a veterinary programme.
It's a bitter pill to swallow - You can't do what I'm doing, and I can't
do what you're doing. Neither of us can play the violin.
What i'm trying to say is this:
Vets: yours is certainly not the only challenging academic programme,
so quit tilting your collective noses so high. This goes for Med students,
too.
BTW: participating in a few stats and math courses is a far, far cry from
completing a physical science or math program.
JJ
William A. Killian
On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, COMPUTERCRAFT wrote:
> Watch out with the personal attacks.
Said the pot to the kettle.
> out. I did not need to be asked twice. The result was that I got
> certified as having a genius-class IQ. The legal case went in my favor.
Genius-class huh? Thats all? So I guess we are supposed to be impressed.
By the way it isn;t called "genius-class". If your IQ is in a certain
range your are technically a genius. Not genius-class.
I also would have expected a genius to understand what the purpose of
different newsgroups was. You brought up a vetinray topic in groups
where it was inappropriate. Their ARE veterinary newsgroups. But then
you would actually have come across more vets and not fared very well in
the appropriate areas I guess.
> I'm ignorant of all sorts of things - hundreds of languages, all sorts
> of scientific and mathematical techniques... - but when I relate an
> observation, IT HAPPENED!
So your lack of class in posting your original tacky post shows "honesty"?
> The vet board in NJ is a sorry farce. The "proceedings" are held behind
> closed doors! Only the vet is allowed to attend. The person that
> brought the complaint is specifically NOT ALLOWED IN! No transcripts
> are made available. The result of the hearing is sent, after a long
> delay, with NO EXPLANATION of the deliberations.
As are most professional investigations. As you yourself acknowledged
you have no scientific education. What purpose could you serve? You
couldn't provide the techincal answers needed to resolve the case. Your
ignorance of the topic would also have made an explanation rather hard
for you to understand.
> One owner of a vet clinic in NYC boasted that she had no fear of law
> suits, since neutered animals had no value, as far as the courts were
> concerned.
Unfortunately true.
> It is VERY hard to sue a vet for even the grossest malpractice. Very
> few lawyers, as opposed to human medical malpractice, would take the
> case.
Well there are plenty of lawyers that would take the case. You would
have to pay up front since there is so little likelyhood of a settlement
or judgement that would be worth the lawyers time on a contigency basis.
> And as can be seen, veterinarians don't seem to have much inclination as
> a group to get rid of any bad apples. The contrast with the legal
> profession is very striking. In NJ the Bar Association vigorously and
> agressively pursues complaints. The Bar also has a fund for victims of
> "criminal" attorneys.
I think your understanding of the legal professions self accountability
differs from the average understanding.
> Vets, considering the average person's lack of any sort if scientific
> education, can easily resort to jargon to confuse the client. THis
> makes it very easy to pose as a hig priest. Vets also have access to
> emotionally distraught people that are very easy to exploit.
Yup. Vets can do this. So can virtually any person performing their job
actually. But as you claimed you are a "genius-class" person or what
ever, why aren't you better educated to deal with this?
> For these reasons the HIGHEST degree of professional and business ethics
> should be DEMANDED of ALL veterinarians. The vet's conduct is the
> VET'S responsibility! It should not be up to the client, particularly
> in a time of distress, to make sure that the vet is playing fair.
So I guess you need a court appointed advocate to take your pet to the vet.
Or do you have another way to answer this?
Everybody is of course responsible for their own conduct. But everybody
has some responsibility to protect their own rights. We can't have baby
sitters everywhere.
> As I mentioned several times, in the computer groups I've pointed out
> the thievery practiced by dishonest computer techs. People were happy
> to hear about it. Nobody posted how THEIR tech was a saint. No techs
> posted about how hard the job is!
PC repair technician is a decent job but if you are the "genius-class"
why is that the best you can do?
So you are not new to this self-appointed vigilante role. Well you did
it poorly and in the wrong places. I at least will not respond to this
thread in this forum again. I apologize for my contribution to this
rather insipid thread.
Let me see now...
>ones). A few years ago, I went to a vet with a friend who just got a
>puppy. The vet had never heard of crate training. Another friend had a
Hmmmm Ive never heard of crate training? and I give advice about
puppies all the time as a vet nurse.
I assume crating is then maybe an American thing cause I and the vets
I work with have never been asked about it in Australia.
Kim
PA Thomas
Never heard of crate training? Gee, I didn't think that Australia was
THAT far away.
In my experience (which includes more than ten years of breeding,
training, and raising dogs), it makes for a much happier animal and
family. Ask the vets you "work with" again. If they are "dog people",
I'm sur some of them have heard about it and will be happyto explain the
concept to you.
Christopher Healy
A lot of vet schools also demand that the applicant has a lot of
experience in a vet setting ( both large and small animal practice).
On 4 Dec 1996, it was written:
Carol Dunster
On 4 Dec 1996 19:14:48 GMT, ava...@netaxs.com (Avatar) wrote:
>snip a lot of good ideas that I agree with and am impressed by Avatar's clear reasoning.
>You seem to think that money has a lot to do with the vet's decision to
>forge ahead to try and find something wrong. Would you have rather had
>the vet say, right up front that, "Your dog is going to die, I'm not sure
>by what, but he'll be dead soon so I'm not going to bother and try to
>figure out why beacuse it will just cost you extra money anyway and I
>don't want to do that."??
I will say that my vet, who knows me very well, will tell me that my
animal shows symptoms of disease A or B and that the prognosis is for
A is very bad and B is not too good and tests X, Y and Z are indicated
for these reasons and how much they will cost me. Then he asks me what
I want to do. He gives me enough information that I can ask questions
such as, "Will my animal suffer with very little chance of recovering?
Will I be spending thousands for a dog that will suffer and die within
a month unless there is a miracle? Is there a chance of recovery and
decent quality of life afterwards (even for a short period)? Which
tests will I have to run to know the answers? Should we treat symptoms
while we are waiting for test results and will this be likely to be
much help?"
I think that it is very frustrating to have a vet that acts like many
doctors that I know - they think that they know what is best for the
patient, so have the owner (or patient) get out of the way and let
them get to work! This causes much confusion for the owner and
understandable frustration. I think that it is reasonable to request
that vets take a few minutes to explain the possible problems and
options of tests and treatment. Owners that are better informed will
be more understanding of the uncertainties of the profession. I doubt
that many vets are only after money, but I suspect that many of them
are overworked, in a hurry and not ready to deal with emotional
owners.
>snip some more very good logic, well stated.
>
>Be a smart consumer and find a vet that does the job the right way, and
>does it well, and stop lumping all vets into a single category of cheats
>and scum, because that generalization is totally incorrect.
>
>Avatar
Thank you for a very clear and insightful post!
Carol and the Carwyn Silky Terriers
Jeff Jardine
snooz wrote:
: In order to apply to vet school, the applicant must have passed
: (and had decent grades, considering the competition): Statistics,
: Trigonometry, Calculus, Inorganic Chem 1&2, Organic Chem 1&2,
: and Physics 1&2. Not exactly courses for ignoramuses.
HeHe. Neither is Quantum.
JJ
Christopher Healy
80% of vets couldn't do what your doing ? Perhaps it is you who has to get
off of his high horse .
COMPUTERCRAFT
The NJ vet board "review" involved several friends. They took a
severely injured cat in to a vet to be eutahnized. The owner was told
that "treatment" was possible. After a number of days the owner was
called and told what the bill was and that an operation would be
required. Shocked by the price, the owner told the vet that she could
not afford this. She was told that the cat would then be euthanized.
The owner asked for some time to think about it. She called the friend
who went in with her to the vet. The friend asked to be allowed to go
to the office to be with the kitten when it was euthanized. The owner
called the vet and told him to put the cat to sleep, but to wait until
the friend got there. The friend, when she saw the kitten, was overcome
with emotion. She told the vet that SHE would adopt the kitten and pay
the bill. The vet told her that the OWNER had decided to put the animal
down. The friend asked to be allowed to call the owner of the kitten to
get an adoption OK. The vet said to go use the phone. The owner of the
cat said, yes, she would agree to give the kitten to her. When the
woman rushed back to the treatment room, the vet had already euthanized
the kitten.
My feeling is that the vet was going to "show them" for not coughing up
the cash fast.
This was taken to the NJ vet board (in much more detail than I'm giving
here). AS I related, the hearing was behind closed doors, no testimony
was allowed/taken. The "decision" was sent to the caomplaining party in
a terse letter. No transcript of the "hearing" was available.
This is one of DOZENS of stories I can tell, all revolving around
"tests", "treatment", and costs not being disclosed.
There's the woman that was told to come pick her cat up (after
surgery). As soon as she got into the office, they had her pay the
bill. Right after she handed over the cash, the techs ( who supposedly
had gone to fetch the cat) came running out of the back room, like
something out of a bad Woody Allen movie. "Oh, she must have just
died!" The owner demanded to see the corpse. The corpse was cold and
stiff. The cat probably never survived the operation. Of course the
owner was still responsible for the bill, but was the macabre spectacle
really necessary?
Then there's the woman who was told that her elderly cat with jaw cancer
could be "treated." I told her to get specifics of the "treatment",
cost, and prognososis. The "treatment" was REMOVAL OF THE CAT'S JAW.
The cost was very high. This barbarism was supposed to ADD THREE MONTHS
TO THE CAT'S LIFE!
Then there is the elderly dog with a brain tumor that the vet talked the
owner into a $1200 operation. The dog lasted a couple of weeks. Never
was really conscious after the surgery.
Then there's the elderly, obese, Great Dane that was brought in with a
minor skin infection. It was a hot Summer. The vet gave a cortisone
shot. The dog was dead in 24 hrs.
This is off the top of my head. I'm just remembering now the woman that
found a cat that had been shaved. Any idiot could see that the cat had
been shaved! I told her that (she brought the cat to me, for somebody
told her that I was an expert on genetics - she thought it was a rare
mutation). Not satisfied with common sense, she took the cat in to a
local vet. The woman was charged $600 for "tests." They were still
doing "tests" until the hair started to grow back in. I went in and
confronted the vet on that one. I directly asked her, "Wasn't it
obvious to you that this cat had been shaved?" "Well, it's obvious
now", was the clever reply.
This same vet (I forget all the details here) was stopped by the owner
of the clinic from giving some bizarre treatment to a dog that was in
the last stages of distemper.
Clearly, I could go on!
jeremy grossbard
Jeff Jardine...talk about hig rses...also I would think we would do well
in what you study as you could likely make a good vet....one can do
anything they set their mind to...oh, I forgot...vets need to be
compasionate and understanding and be able to communicate well...you
obviously can't based on the rudeness of the letters you seem to write.
On 5 Dec 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
Bite Me!
I really wish you would spontaneously explode!
Mystery
Jeff Jardine
jeremy grossbard (jgro...@vagus.vth.colostate.edu) wrote:
: Jeff Jardine...talk about hig rses...also I would think we would do well
: in what you study as you could likely make a good vet....one can do
: anything they set their mind to...oh, I forgot...vets need to be
: compasionate and understanding and be able to communicate well...you
: obviously can't based on the rudeness of the letters you seem to write.
Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't believe you.
I doubt there are many vets that could perform adequately in the physical
sciences, at anything above the basic requirements. Likewise, I could
never tolerate being a veterinarian. I doubt I have the patience, or
the stomach.
"You can do anything if you set your mind to it" is a myth told to
children to keep their hopes up. I could never be president, I could
never become a professional athlete.
JJ
Jason
In article <32A76D...@computercraft.com>, ao...@computercraft.com says...
>Then there's the woman who was told that her elderly cat with jaw cancer
>could be "treated." I told her to get specifics of the "treatment",
>cost, and prognososis. The "treatment" was REMOVAL OF THE CAT'S JAW.
>The cost was very high. This barbarism was supposed to ADD THREE MONTHS
>TO THE CAT'S LIFE!
In human medicine that would not be called "barbarism" ... why here? It is a
veterinarians duty to offer all viable options.... if the veterinarian had not
offered, and the cat had been euthanised, then the owner found out about
surgery .. they would be just as upset.(Some people would like those 3 months)
>Then there is the elderly dog with a brain tumor that the vet talked the
>owner into a $1200 operation. The dog lasted a couple of weeks. Never
>was really conscious after the surgery.
That is a risk with any operation .. there are no "guarantees". I just saw a
dog go to a neurosurgeon, have a brain tumor removed, then have a seizure and
die on the way out of the hospital..... but the owners were glad they had at
least tried to do whatever necessary for that member of their family.
>
>Then there's the elderly, obese, Great Dane that was brought in with a
>minor skin infection. It was a hot Summer. The vet gave a cortisone
>shot. The dog was dead in 24 hrs.
>
So now what, you are saying cortisone should be used for euthanasia? I have
never seen a dog die from only a cortisone shot. There is alot of information
missing from this case.
I really wish people would not spout off "remember when's" without all the
pertinent facts. If you were not present in the exam room, you don't know what
options were offered. I see problems time and time again where animals don't
get treated properly, and usually it is because the OWNER won't allow the
veterinarian to do what is necessary for a DIAGNOSIS... and just wants to try
one treatment after another, until the animal's condition worsens .. then tries
to blame the veterinarian who never was given a real chance to help the animal
in the first place.
Jason
Jason
>> : On 27 Nov 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
>>
>> : > This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
>> : > of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
>> : > mathematics program.
Gosh .... I am a veterinarian. .... and I was at the top of my Engineering
Calculus class in undergrad .... a class most engineers had to take twice just
to pass.... hmmm....
In undergrad, I used to make fun of the education majors ... but now I am
married to one, and I would not want to be a teacher like my wife... no way ...
wouldn't want to deal with the crap she takes.....
Ya know, I could have taken any classes I want, any major. Math, Science,
Music, or English. Science or Liberal Arts. None are that tough if you put
your mind to it. It is just a matter of giving it the time. I just took the
ones I liked the most. ( any class can be hard or easy .... you get out of it
what you put in.)
Jason
Jason
act...@aol.com
Just want to throw in my 2 cents on behalf of vets. Don't judge them all
by a bad one you encounter. My sister, who is one of the smartest people
I have ever known, is a vet. She busted her butt to become one because it
was what she wanted to do, not because she wanted to get rich. She treats
animals (mostly bovine, but also avian and others) whose people who pay
sometimes in money, sometimes in items like loaves of bread, and sometimes
not at all. Rich she's not. And she takes the suffering of all earth's
creatures
seriously. I guess what I'm saying is, if you think your vet's no good,
get a new vet. Don't think they're all rotten because one is.
Jeff Jardine
Jason (Shre...@tdn.com) wrote:
: >> : On 27 Nov 1996, Jeff Jardine wrote:
: >>
: >> : > This merely indicates a large demand. I'd be willing to bet that 80%
: >> : > of all vetrinary graduates couldn't cope in a physical science or
: >> : > mathematics program.
: Gosh .... I am a veterinarian. .... and I was at the top of my Engineering
: Calculus class in undergrad .... a class most engineers had to take twice just
: to pass.... hmmm....
I avoided mentioning engineering programs for a reason. Upper year engineering
courses are _nothing_ like the upper year math and physics in pure science.
Engineers don't even come close to having the math background needed in physics.
JJ
Ann Hamilton
You failed to answer my questions, one of which was "What would you like
to see changed to improve client communication and the self-governing system
within the profession?"
Anyone can spout off examples that justify, in their mind, their feelings
upon a subject. But to elicit change it requires thought and a plan of
action.
Just some comments on your examples...
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, COMPUTERCRAFT wrote:
> The NJ vet board "review" involved several friends.
Most state boards are made up of veterinarians and a public member (non
veterinarian from the business sector) Of the veterinarians one is usually
hired by the state and the others appointed by district. This is done in
this manner to avoid a review board by "friends".
They took a
By 'they" I am assuming you mean some friends and not the state
board of NJ incognito?
> severely injured cat in to a vet to be eutahnized. The owner was told
> that "treatment" was possible. After a number of days the owner was
> called and told what the bill was and that an operation would be
> required. Shocked by the price, the owner told the vet that she could
> not afford this. She was told that the cat would then be euthanized.
> The owner asked for some time to think about it. She called the friend
> who went in with her to the vet. The friend asked to be allowed to go
> to the office to be with the kitten when it was euthanized. The owner
> called the vet and told him to put the cat to sleep, but to wait until
> the friend got there. The friend, when she saw the kitten, was overcome
> with emotion. She told the vet that SHE would adopt the kitten and pay
> the bill. The vet told her that the OWNER had decided to put the animal
> down. The friend asked to be allowed to call the owner of the kitten to
> get an adoption OK. The vet said to go use the phone. The owner of the
> cat said, yes, she would agree to give the kitten to her. When the
> woman rushed back to the treatment room, the vet had already euthanized
> the kitten.
>
> My feeling is that the vet was going to "show them" for not coughing up
> the cash fast.
I can only hope your feeling is incorrect, for if it is this is truly a
warped individual. What wold this vet gain by euthanize the kitten to
spite the owner? Especially if there were a second party that would come
up with the money necessary to provide medical care. Now this vet has lost
a kitten, two potentiatl clients and the money to be earned in the care of
the pet. All sorts of more reasonable explanations are possible. He/she
felt the owner had signed the proper forms and undergone thoughtful
consideration regarding the treatment of her kitten and chose euthanasia.
Euthanasia is a difficult choice to make and shouldn't have to be rehashed
over and over again. Maybe there was a miscommunication at the reception
desk or maybe your right and this is a sicko.
>
> This was taken to the NJ vet board (in much more detail than I'm giving
> here). AS I related, the hearing was behind closed doors, no testimony
> was allowed/taken. The "decision" was sent to the caomplaining party in
> a terse letter. No transcript of the "hearing" was available.
>
> This is one of DOZENS of stories I can tell, all revolving around
> "tests", "treatment", and costs not being disclosed.
>
> There's the woman that was told to come pick her cat up (after
> surgery). As soon as she got into the office, they had her pay the
> bill. Right after she handed over the cash, the techs ( who supposedly
> had gone to fetch the cat) came running out of the back room, like
> something out of a bad Woody Allen movie. "Oh, she must have just
> died!" The owner demanded to see the corpse. The corpse was cold and
> stiff. The cat probably never survived the operation. Of course the
> owner was still responsible for the bill, but was the macabre spectacle
> really necessary?
It quite possible this staff had indeed just discovered the cat's demise
even though it had passed one at least 40 minutes prior. It my opinion
that each pet should be released to the owner from the examination room by
the veterinarian. In this way the owner can ask questions of the doctor.
This client certainly deserved to discover the death of her cat in the
privacy of the exam room with a doctor present, in my mind. Hind sight is
twenty-twenty. I agreed that this macabre spectacle was not in anyway
necessary or the height of professionalism. But I doubt it was
preplanned.
>
> Then there's the woman who was told that her elderly cat with jaw cancer
> could be "treated." I told her to get specifics of the "treatment",
> cost, and prognososis. The "treatment" was REMOVAL OF THE CAT'S JAW.
> The cost was very high. This barbarism was supposed to ADD THREE MONTHS
> TO THE CAT'S LIFE!
Unfortunately what you term barbarism is the only treatment for bone
cancer, surgical excision and follow-up treatment of radiation and
chemotherapy. The same is true for human patients. That would not be my
choice for my cat but I know of a client that chose this option for hers.
Her cat lost one half its mandible and maxilla (upper and lower jaw) to a
severely malignant cancer. Follow up treatment was done by laser. The
cat was hideous to look at and required 2 MONTHS hospitalization. She
visited him everyday. The cat was lucky and lived for 2 years
postsurgically. It had to be tubed fed but purred and played. the owner
wouldn't have traded this time for anything. But not everyone would make
this choice.
>
> Then there is the elderly dog with a brain tumor that the vet talked the
> owner into a $1200 operation. The dog lasted a couple of weeks. Never
> was really conscious after the surgery.
I had a friend that had the same thing happen to him. He had a benign
(brain tumor even if benign are never friendly) tumor that invaded his
sinuses and started putting pressure between the two hemispheres (halves
of the brain) The surgery went well butthe postoperative swelling was too
great>
> Then there's the elderly, obese, Great Dane that was brought in with a
> minor skin infection. It was a hot Summer. The vet gave a cortisone
> shot. The dog was dead in 24 hrs.
I don't understand the connection you are trying to make here.
Cortisone injections can cause complications in patients with Cushings
disease and other serious metabollic problems but even then don'e cause
such rapid death. Cortisone doesn't affect an animals ability to deal
with heat. Sound entirely coincidental. People have coronays
(California slang for heart attack) right after being a clean bill of
health by physicians all the time.
>
> This is off the top of my head. I'm just remembering now the woman that
> found a cat that had been shaved. Any idiot could see that the cat had
> been shaved! I told her that (she brought the cat to me, for somebody
> told her that I was an expert on genetics - she thought it was a rare
> mutation). Not satisfied with common sense, she took the cat in to a
> local vet. The woman was charged $600 for "tests." They were still
> doing "tests" until the hair started to grow back in. I went in and
> confronted the vet on that one. I directly asked her, "Wasn't it
> obvious to you that this cat had been shaved?" "Well, it's obvious
> now", was the clever reply.
I am just curious as to what "tests" would determine genetic mutation?
Was the cats hair taking a long time to grow back? Did it have anyother
problems often associated with stray cats?
>
> This same vet (I forget all the details here) was stopped by the owner
> of the clinic from giving some bizarre treatment to a dog that was in
> the last stages of distemper.
Are all these examples from the same veterinary office? Are you really
suggesting that all "tests" and "treatment" that exceed a certain
monetary limit are designed to rip off a client? Most vets I've worked
with (which is about 300) give clients the option of several different
therapeutic protocols. The best analogy I have heard is to cars; the
cadillic method, the chevy method and the bicycle method. The cadillac
method is the best that money could buy, exactly that which would be done
in a human hospital. The chevy method is doing all the treatment without
the laboratory tests, going for treatment with the doctors best guess for
the diagnosis. The bicycle method is settling for the simplest, cheapest
(not always the most successful) home treatment without being inhumane for
the pet. This of course is a simplist analogy for there are many
exceptions; some diseases or injurys leave no choices. Its either the
cadillac or euthansia.
Clearly I could go on. But the real reason for me responding is for your
thoughts or answer to the original question. I to am for total Animal Care
Information. Unfortunately I don't have access to netscape at the present
time to visit the web sites you have posted. Ann
Michael J. Ryan
Comment on many posts about vets. Not all are alike and one in
particular cares as much about our furry friends as we do.....
We recently had to finally put our pal to sleep. Our vet could not have
been kinder, both to our kitty, Sylvester and us in the last year of her
life. Sylvester was old, and had that "common" thyroid problem.
Relatively early diagnosis and the thyroid pills gave us another year
with our Sylvester. Last month, when she was not eating and losing
weight, we took her to Dr. Arzem and he prescibed a steroid to try and
perk her up. He assured us that our friend was not in any pain, but
warned us that if she didn't respond in as little as a few days, her
wieght lose and kidney failure (then in early stages) would get worse.
The pills didn't work, and two weeks later (12 days ago), Dr. Arzem told
us what we already knew. He and my husband were with Sylvester when she
died.
Dr. Arzem's care for our friend did not end there. In memory of our
little Sylvester, he made a donation to the Pet Trust Fund at the
University of Guelph Veterinary College.
Other vets may get mixed reviews, but Dr. Gary Arzem of the North Yonge
Veterinary Hospital is Newmarket, Ontario is the best. I trusted him with
the care of my friend Sylvester, and thank him for that care.
Pat
Scott Nelson
Let me see now... wrote:
>
> >ones). A few years ago, I went to a vet with a friend who just got a
> >puppy. The vet had never heard of crate training. Another friend had a
>
> Hmmmm Ive never heard of crate training? and I give advice about
> puppies all the time as a vet nurse.
> I assume crating is then maybe an American thing cause I and the vets
> I work with have never been asked about it in Australia.
> Kim
It is also a Canadian thing and any animal professional I have known in
the last 8 years have done nothing but raved about its place
in training a dog. BTW, does anyone know how long crate training has
been used? When we were kids, our dogs were never crated, just
wondering when it started.
Suzanne
Christopher Healy
Hmmm... must be a Western Canadian thing !
Isabel Aidan
Yes, I agree. some vets, just like some doctors, are truly awful and
have no business practicing. One of the first vets we every had
screwed up my cat's declaw and we finally took are to another vet who
had to finish the job. After that we learned to ask questions, get
references and always hold the vet accountable for what s/he says.
When in doubt we get a second opinion and when the vet has proven
him/herself to be what we want for our cats we take them elsewhere. I
have a wonderfully honest, loving vet who has never tried to cheat me,
always recommends a second opinion to a vet of the owner's choosing
and always calls back when asked a question, when the owner has a
concern or whatever. When we leave the area I'll miss this vet, but
at least now I know what to look for.
As a pet owner, it is your responsibility to check on the vet's
record, to make sure you've chosen a vet that is knowledgeable about
the animal you have and to take your animal elsewhere if you have
heard horror stories about the vet or are uncomfortable with the vet.
Granted, there are times when this information is not readily
accessible, but just like with doctors, it is up to you to make an
informed decision.
jeremy grossbard
On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Jeffery H. Wooddell wrote:
> Kathy Rumble wrote:
>
> > A few months ago we took our new dog to a different vet because he
> > wouldn't stop vomitting and the vet gave him an injection of gravol
> > ($14) and an injection of Tagamet ($17). I work in a medical office and
> > my doctor gets paid $4.70 for giving the same injection to humans!!!!!
> >
> > Kathy
>
> Dogs & cats don't sue for malpractice -- thus the high cost of "human" medicines.
> --
> Jeff Wooddell
>
>
What the hell is going on here??? So some things are more expensive at
the vet then at the human doctor......when an animal needs major surgery
to fix a broken bone or to remove a foreign body from its GI tract...you
pay somewhere between 250 and 1200 dollars.........for you or I it would
cost many times more........All I am saying is quit your bitching because
in the end, vet med is still much cheaper than human med......as a vet I
will make much less than my human counterparts, but I have the same
knowlege and instrumentation at my disposal...that is not fair...it just
reflects a difference between how society values human vs. animal health
care.........also, what is wrong with a vet charging what they feel their
services are worth............unfortunately, in most instances the best
vets charge the most.....you get what you pay for.
jeremy grossbard DVM (to be, may 1997)
jeremy grossbard
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Let me see now... wrote:
>
> >In article <58fcjc$1...@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, "kittykat@"@netcom.ca says...
> >>
> >>>
> >>First of all, the lump was removed in an operation and was biopsied and
> >>we were told "It was a rare type of benign cyst, nothing to be concerned
> >>about." How was one to get a second opinion on a lump that was now
> >>gone????
>
> >Did you have the mass sent to a lab for histopathology, or did your vet examine
> >the mass? Even if sent to a lab for histopath, you can always ask for it to be
> >reviewed by another pathologist.
> Really if a lump is sent to a pathologist and the results come back
> such and such you as an owner are not going to say I dont agree I want
> another pathology opinion how on earth is the owner meant to know if
> its a wrong diagnosis or not.
> The vet should have some idea what it might be and if worried about
> the first diagnosis then in is up to him/her to get a second
> pathologist to review it not the owner who shouldnt be expected to
> know what lump is that.
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
Kim are you a vet?? were you there?? you can't place blame on the vet
without knowing both sides of the story.....wouldn't you ask for a second
opinion if you had a lump read out as cancerous?? why would this be
different.....at least the owner should ask the vet to get a second
review.....vet med is just like human med....there are no differences in
regards to this discussion!!
Scott Nelson
jeremy grossbard wrote:
>
> On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Jeffery H. Wooddell wrote:
>
> > Kathy Rumble wrote:
> >
> > > A few months ago we took our new dog to a different vet because he
> > > wouldn't stop vomitting and the vet gave him an injection of gravol
> > > ($14) and an injection of Tagamet ($17). I work in a medical office and
> > > my doctor gets paid $4.70 for giving the same injection to humans!!!!!
> > >
> > > Kathy
> >
> > Dogs & cats don't sue for malpractice -- thus the high cost of "human" medicines.
> > --
> > Jeff Wooddell
> >
> >
> will make much less than my human counterparts, but I have the same
> knowlege and instrumentation at my disposal...that is not fair...
Who is bitching now??
Tracy Milkay
I couldn't agree more with this! I feel very fortunate to have one of
the very best vets EVER! I would trust any of my pet's lives with
them. But, I know not everyone is this lucky.
As homeowners, we get several estimates before allowing work to be
performed yet when it comes to vet care, most tend to just go to the
local vet and take their chances - I wonder why that is?
Let me see now...
> >Did you have the mass sent to a lab for histopathology, or did your vet examine
>> >the mass? Even if sent to a lab for histopath, you can always ask for it to be
>> >reviewed by another pathologist.
>> Really if a lump is sent to a pathologist and the results come back
>> such and such you as an owner are not going to say I dont agree I want
>> another pathology opinion how on earth is the owner meant to know if
>> its a wrong diagnosis or not.
>> The vet should have some idea what it might be and if worried about
>> the first diagnosis then in is up to him/her to get a second
>> pathologist to review it not the owner who shouldnt be expected to
>> know what lump is that.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Kim are you a vet?? were you there?? you can't place blame on the vet
>without knowing both sides of the story.....wouldn't you ask for a second
>opinion if you had a lump read out as cancerous?? why would this be
>different.....at least the owner should ask the vet to get a second
>review.....vet med is just like human med....there are no differences in
>regards to this discussion!!
Of course Im not blaming the vet, Im just saying that an owner is
going to believe a veterianary pathologist and their own vet.
I dont know where you are from but in Sydney Australia there are all
of 3 vet pathology labs and the clinic I work in uses 1 that is
regarded as the best and yes that means more expensive.
I have never seen an owner ask for a second opinion on histopathology
or any other pathology for that matter and at around $100 for histo I
dont blame them. In the USA you may have zillions of pathologists to
get a zillion opinions but in Australia you sure dont.
No Im not a vet by the way Im a vet nurse and again I just want to say
I wasnt blaming the vet only that the owner cannot be expected to know
what pathology is correct or not if the vet agrees with it.
I know if I went to a vet for a lump off my dog and had histo done on
it and the vet said they where surprised at the result then yes I
would go for a second opinion but that has never happened where I work
so I have never seen the need for it.
Kim
MTEllis
One thing that must always be taken into consideration is that people do
things in different ways. Some vets. see their work as a job and others
see it as a love or a hobby. I was fortunate to work with a vet. for two
and a half years that saw his "job" as a hobby. He loved every minute of
it. He would do whatever it took to treat an animal even if it meant
"working" for free. Since then I have worked for several other vets. and
they all do things differently. Not every vet. is going to follow a set
procedure. Each goes about their job in their own way and may treat the
animal different. Some might start with blood panels while others may
choose a different approach. Another thing that is extremely important to
keep in mind is that animals can't talk. The staff members don't know
where it hurts or what's wrong. They rely on the owners to tell them how
the animal is acting different. They don't know the animals "normal"
behavior since they don't live with it so how can they tell if they are
acting different. Owners must let the vets know what the animal is doing
and how it is different than their usual behavior. With people, doctors
can ask what is wrong and then narrow it down. You would never go to a
doctor and say nothing. The first thing you do is tell them where it
hurts or what is going on. With pets it is much more difficult. If the
staff and the owners don't communicate and work together difficulties can
arise.