Alcohol and Parrots in the wild
Glenn
banana this morning and boy, you could really taste the alcohol in it!
Now, it dawned on me that for a several hundred thousand years in Africa,
Grey parrots have had access to very, very ripe fermented fruit. And very
ripe, fermented fruit contains alcohol.
So, birds have been eating alcohol for a long time, and have adapted to it
in small amounts, I am certain.
I suspect the "ban" on alcohol for parrots was made up by well-meaning
owners. But it is contrary to parrots natural habitat.
I bet there are not any studies that prove that a little bit of wine or beer
now and then will hurt a parrot.
Can anyone show me a study proving that alcohol hurts a parrot?
I'm not interested in hearing an unproven opinion (seen LOTS of that
already!)...but by all means let's hear about studies that show that alcohol
in small amounts hurts a bird.
--- Glenn (and Grover the Grey) in Minneapolis
Typeset
someone thought that was a bad idea, you felt a little taste was OK,
and it snowballed from there.
You want "scientific" feedback? Here goes: Alcohol is a toxin.
Period. Once concentrations reach a point, you've got a problem. A
nice big beefy human's got lots of mass, and perhaps a metabolism,
that allows him to get away with ingesting this stuff (to a point :) )
Now, birds. The issue here isn't whether they can ingest alcohol or
not. It's a toxin. Period. It's what their metabolic thresholds are
and their ability to "process" the stuff out of their systems.
I doubt that the daily diet of wild birds is made up of a forest full
of 80 proof Apples. Oh, I'd imagine you might get some. But the
concentrations/frequency isn't as you've painted (imo). Also, wild
parrots eat LOTS of other things besides fruits: insects, carrion
(when available), nuts, etc.
Now, as to your statement regarding the "ban" on alcohol: Lets be
realistic: Don't you think that man-made, distilled alcoholic
beverages have a higher concentration of alcohol than what might be
found in a naturally fermenting fruit? Even if your point is true to
some degree it's not relevant to the pet owner: You have no way to
understand how to duplicate "safe" levels for your species of bird.
And, frankly that's the only relevant thing here. The safety of your
pet.
The funny thing is that I (probably) agree with the suggested idea "a
LITTLE wine or beer now and then won't hurt a parrot." Problem is,
humans are (often) notoriously stupid. A little to one person is
something totally different to another, and heck, if wine then why not
Schnapps? Though you might not be that dumb, sure as s___ someone
else is.
Alcohol is out. No reason for it. And, getting back to your question
as to diet in the wild: Except for species that rely upon nectar &
fruit almost exclusively (like Lories), the diet is quite varied.
Relative to species like Lories, doubt you'll find an answer.
So, who "chastised you" for letting the bird sip some beer? :)
Lara
it could - it might. I certainly wouldn't want to risk it.
Actually, many birds eat over-ripened fruit; Waxwings are a type of bird that
eat almost exclusively berries, except during the breeding season, and they
obviously end up ingesting quite a few overripe ones; people have even observed
"drunk" waxwings!
Not too long ago, before parrot care was as "specialized" and we knew what we
do today about them, many parrots probably took sips of their owners' alcoholic
drinks; there was a "semi-infamous" Blue & Gold macaw that was reputed to have
lived over a 100 years (although that is unsubstantiated), and furthermore was
reputed to have been given his own glass of some alcoholic drink or other (I
don't remember what exactly) every day for much of his life. I've heard
similar stories told.
So, I doubt alcohol is as "lethal" to birds as some people make it out to be -
but that doesn't mean the "ban" on it should be lifted, by any means! Would
you give your child alcohol? Certainly not, even though alchohol would not be
lethal, or even necessarily harmful, to a child. Similarly you should not give
your parrot alcohol.
Besides which, like humans, birds no doubt have varying tolerances to alcohol,
depending on various factors, including how much tolerance they've built up to
it by drinking it often - and birds DO have much more sensitive systems than
humans/mammals do, and to a bird with a low tolerance, alcohol *could* very
well be lethal, or at least very harmful.
Alcohol most definately deserves it's place among the "Absolute No-No's of Bird
Feeding", whether or not it's proven to be harmful in every case.
Lara
Glenn
Typeset wrote in message <361306d0...@netnews.netaxs.com>...
>OK. Let me guess: You gave your bird a taste of something, and
>someone thought that was a bad idea, you felt a little taste was OK,
>and it snowballed from there.
Nobody. But reading all the "does" and "don'ts" for parrot nutrition, I just
wondered what the evidence was against certain foods.
The argument "alcohol is a toxin" doesn't automatically settle the question
for me. I do believe the recent studies that show much lower heart disease
in MODERATE drinkers (1 drink per day). So it appears to me that a little
toxin can be a good thing.
Most beneficial pharmaceutical drugs will kill you in high enough doses.
Anyway, common sense dictates that "1 drink" for a 300-gram parrot would be
about 1 drop of beer!
--- Glenn
Kevin Chu
> The argument "alcohol is a toxin" doesn't automatically settle the question
> for me. I do believe the recent studies that show much lower heart disease
> in MODERATE drinkers (1 drink per day). So it appears to me that a little
> toxin can be a good thing.
Moderate drinkers are more likely to have healthier lifestyles (they
go out and play sports, hike, kayak, etc.) than are people who hardly
drink (librarians etc.).
> Most beneficial pharmaceutical drugs will kill you in high enough doses.
Almost anything will.
> Anyway, common sense dictates that "1 drink" for a 300-gram parrot would be
> about 1 drop of beer!
You would have to consider the metabolism as well as body mass, and
you would also have to consider differences in physiology.
Kevin
--
Kevin Chu ke...@portal.ca
http://members.tripod.com/~super_kevin/
s leveque
for birds crashing into windows. These times seemed to coincide with
berry ripening, and i had assumed that these berries had fermented
somewhat, either on the plant or in the birds. Elephants have been
known to become intoxicated on grains that ferment in their stomachs,
and entire herds of drunken elephants can be rather destructive.
I don't even want to *think* about what my blue-and-gold macaw would
be like after a binge; however, the *vet* told us "it really doesn't
take much to get a parrot drunk." Therefore, his ethanol intake
is restricted to that amount found naturally in his fruit. Any more
than that, and I'd be concerned for his safety (not even considering
the fact that he would probably be more destructive than a drunken
elephant).
Regarding a controlled double-blind study... i wouldn't want to
subject my bird to the blood tests and liver biopsies, etc., that are
necessary for such a study... nor would i want to risk the possibility
of his acquiring a taste for decent wine... He already opens every
bottle and can he lays his beak on.
-ssl
Glenn wrote:
>
> I've never given my Timneh Grey any alcohol. But I was eating a very ripe
> banana this morning and boy, you could really taste the alcohol in it!
>
> Now, it dawned on me that for a several hundred thousand years in Africa,
> Grey parrots have had access to very, very ripe fermented fruit. And very
> ripe, fermented fruit contains alcohol.
>
John Chambers
> Glenn wrote:
> >
> > I've never given my Timneh Grey any alcohol. But I was eating a very ripe
> > banana this morning and boy, you could really taste the alcohol in it!
> >
> > Now, it dawned on me that for a several hundred thousand years in Africa,
> > Grey parrots have had access to very, very ripe fermented fruit. And very
> > ripe, fermented fruit contains alcohol.
> >
> > So, birds have been eating alcohol for a long time, and have adapted to it
> > in small amounts, I am certain.
> >
> > I suspect the "ban" on alcohol for parrots was made up by well-meaning
> > owners. But it is contrary to parrots natural habitat.
> >
> > I bet there are not any studies that prove that a little bit of wine or beer
> > now and then will hurt a parrot.
> >
> > Can anyone show me a study proving that alcohol hurts a parrot?
The results will probably come out similar to the studies on humans, and
for the same reasons. There have been quite a lot of studies of the effects
of long-term alcohol use (by humans), since the sixties if not earlier.
The results have generally been consistent: The "moderate" drinkers are
generally healthier and live longer than either the teetotallers or the
drunkards. By "moderate" they generally mean 1-3 drinks per day, such as
a glass of wine or beer with every meal.
A general explanation proposed by biologists is like you've suggested:
We are descended from a long line of primates that eat fruit as a major
part of their diet. Ripe fruit is typically 0.5 to 1% alcohol, due to
the yeasts that colonize the fruit. So a diet of at most 1% alcohol is
what we are adapted to. At higher levels, ethanol is toxic to us, as it
is to other animals, but our biochemistry is capable of handling small
amounts of it.
There seems to be no evidence that it's actually the alcohol that explains
why moderate drinkers are healthier than nondrinkers. It's as likely to
be the B vitamins that the yeasts produce. Further studies are needed.
But they don't get funded very often, because the previous studies have
produced results that aren't politically correct.
There's a good chance that this will turn out to apply to fruit-eating
parrots as well, and possibly to all parrots. But I've never read of
any scientific studies, either.
An observation that some zoologists have made: Most animals don't like
the taste or smell of ethanol. The ones that do almost always turn out
to be animals that naturally eat fruit as at least a small part of their
diet. You'd think that even fruit-eating birds wouldn't like alcohol
or its effects, since it interferes with their flying ability, but some
seem to. There have been many descriptions of flocks of (North American)
robins descending on overripe cherry trees, devouring the cherries in
a big noisy banquet, and then flying off in a very disorganized, flock,
crashing into trees and buildings, and so on.
If anyone reads a real study on the topic, be sure to let us know. In
the meantime, I wouldn't worry too much if your parrot takes a few sips
of wine, though I don't think I'd want a soused macaw on my hands, either.
Our cockatiels won't touch the stuff. I offered them some wine a long
time ago; they took one sip, spit it out, and now won't drink anything
colored.
acm
Lisa Lusignolo wrote in message
<01be0b87$ccce1160$3c95...@skyfly.wf.net>...
>I just heard of a bird my friend ran across. Its a macaw that lives out at
>a drop zone. He has the run of the place and puts himself to bed in his
>cage when he is ready, and roams around wherever he wants in the day. (
>this is in California) Well, skydivers have colorful vocabularies at
>times, and so does the bird. He also drinks like a skydiver. Given the
>choice of a beer or a coke, he choses beer every time. He can't tip a full
>one, but he grabs the half empties and sucks them down. I guess he is 8
>years old now, so he is doing ok so far. Don't know how this will affect
>his health in the long run.
>
>
>