Hybrid vs. Mutation (what's the dif)?
Ronica M
appreciate information and opinions so I can make more educated decisions.
I am confused here. What is the difference between hybrids and mutations?
I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
What's the popular opinion about mutations? Does it occur naturally in
the wild? Does it take place in the larger parrots (even in captivity)?
If so, are there some examples with which I might be familiar?
LayneDinLA
>mutations?
> I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
>subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
>
>What's the popular opinion about mutations? Does it occur naturally in
>the wild? Does it take place in the larger parrots (even in captivity)?
I'll take a shot at this.
Taxonomy is the science that "catalogs" all living creatures into 7 or 8
categories starting at the most general (kingdom or phylum) to the most
specific. We are most familiar with the two most specific categories which
comprise the "scientific name". We all know that humans are Homo sapiens.
Homo is our genus (general name) and sapiens is our species (specific
name). A hybrid is a cross between two species. For us, it would be the
offspring of a modern human with one of our ancestors, Homo erectus, for
example.
A Scarlet macaw is Ara (genus) macao (species) and a Blue and Gold macaw
is Ara (same genus) ararauna (different species). While it is clear that
these birds are closely related, they are of different species and
breeding them would result in a hybrid. Most same genus hybrids are
possible but frequently result in offspring that are infertile.
Unfortunately, this has proven to be untrue with many parrot hybrids.
Mutations occur within a species. For example, all Cockatiels are
Nymphicus hollandicus, yet we see Lutinos, Pearlies, Greys, Pieds, etc.
(I'm not much of a Cockatiel expert, although I have 5 wonderful rescued
'tiels.) This comes from selectively breeding birds that are prone to the
characteristics that we want. This is a huge oversimplification as any
geneticist will tell you, but it is the general idea. It is my
understanding that mutations do occur in nature, but at a very small rate.
(I am not certain of this.)
The best example of mutations are domestic dogs. All domestic dogs are the
same species yet we have everything from the Great Dane to the Chihuaua.
This is nothing but selective breeding. The big downside of so much
inbreeding (aside from the British royal family) is that not only are the
desired traits passed along, but so are all the negative traits (these are
usually rescessive genes but in a closed breeding pool stand an increased
chance of meeting up with ona another). This is why so many "purebred" (a
huge misnomer since they have the same genetic structure as a "mutt") dogs
aren't as smart as mutts, have a shorter lifespan and suffer from so many
congenital maladies.
A subspecies is where, usually by virute of geographic separation, a group
of a certain species forms traits unique to that group and distinct from
the nominate group. We see this is many parrot species. The difference may
be on account of some environmental preference for that trait (natural
selection) or just through closed breeding. Subspecies do not come from
species mixing.
Animals survive because they have carved out a specific niche in nature.
They eat a certain thing and a certain thing eats them all in the required
numbers so that everything stays in balance. They have all evolved to be
perfectly equipped to perform these tasks. Hybridization is the most
unnatural thing an animal could do. Instead of refining their uniqueness
and, hence, their ability to survive, they dilute it or step out of their
niche. Even animals as closely related as the Scarlet, Greenwing and Blue
& Gold macaws exhibit different diets, behavior and breeding habits, each
of which has evolved over millions of years to assist them in surviving in
the wild.
Now, are you more or less confused?
Layne
Layne...@aol.com (Layne David Dicker)
Max
>Thanks to all who responded to my question about the Mobrella. I
>appreciate information and opinions so I can make more educated decisions.
>
>I am confused here. What is the difference between hybrids and mutations?
> I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
>subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
>
>What's the popular opinion about mutations? Does it occur naturally in
>the wild? Does it take place in the larger parrots (even in captivity)?
>If so, are there some examples with which I might be familiar?
Greetings from Anchorage Ronica,
Hybirds do not occur in the wild unless because of man's interference
the brids are forced into living conditions and environmental closeness
that would not occur "naturally".
My opinion (whether popular or not) is that consumers out looking to
purchase parrots and parrot-like birds should obtain them from established
reputable captive breeding providers.
As the parrot's environment is encroached upon by man more and more,
their natural breeding areas are disappearing. Species are ceasing to
exist and the pool of the separate species continues to dwindle as more
and more irresponsible breeders combine different sub-species due to lack
of correct gender types in like species, or simple ignorance or
rationalization. If our children are to be able to know the different
species, we must ensure that there is no mixing of species today.
Don't apply anything you know about canines to parrots. If we are to
continue to share our world with these wonderful birds, we must be
responsible in our animal-husbandry techniques. Don't not a love a bird
because some irresponsible person mixed two sub-species, but don't support
them either. And don't support the wild-caught imports. If you could
witness the trauma wild-caught birds must endure to end up in your corner
pet palace you would cry. It's a crime against nature.
Find a good breeder. I know of two I would recommend without
hesitation. ABRC is excellent, and if you feel exotic, there's a breeder
in North Pole, Alaska who I very much respect. Email me for the
specifics.
By the way, I share my world with a yellow-nape & mealy amazon, an
umbrella cockatoo, and (my favorite) a b&g macaw. Best wishes.
Cordially,
--Max--
AbbeyLynn
(LayneDinLA) writes:
>The best example of mutations are domestic dogs. All domestic dogs are
the
>same species yet we have everything from the Great Dane to the Chihuaua.
>This is nothing but selective breeding.
First, I not a geneticist, but I will try and clarify things a
little. Genetic mutations are not the same as selective breeding.
Mutations are spontaneous (or induced, such as by radiation or toxins)
changes in the genetic code (ie individual genes sequences). Most
mutations result in lethal changes that would make it impossible for the
organism to survive. A small percentage of mutations have no significant
effect (some coloring changes for instance) and some are even beneficial.
Mutations occur at a small rate in all populations, both captive and wild,
including man. This is the basis for Darwinian evolution.
In selective breeding you are selecting for the individual who has
characteristics most like those which you desire. Take minature horses,
for instance. You start out with a group of horses and choose the two
smallest and breed them. Of the offspring you choose the smallest and
breed them (possibly back to their parents), you take the smallest
offspring and breed them, and so on, until, voila, a minature horse. This
is somewhat oversimplified, but it is the general idea. Selective
breeding requires no mutations (although some may occur and be turned to
advantage), but utilizes genetic traits which are already present and are
merely magnified by selecting and breeding specific individuals.
Selective breeding may or may not utilize inbreeding and/or line
breeding, but that is a whole other discussion.
If I remember correctly, there used to be some controversy over the
concept of breeding between species. The definition of a species included
genetic isolation, ie. one of the things that made a species a species
used to be that it bred "true" or could not cross with other species. If
they did cross breed, then they were no longer considered seperate
species, but were sub-species as determined by different geographic
locations, habitats, etc. Is this still the case or has it been changed
since my genetics classes (which were admittedly a while ago!).
Abbey Lynn Sutton (abbe...@aol.com)
Abbey Lynn Sutton (abbe...@aol.com)
LayneDinLA
/used to be that it bred "true" or could not cross with other species. If
/they did cross breed, then they were no longer considered seperate
/species, but were sub-species as determined by different geographic
/locations, habitats, etc. Is this still the case or has it been changed
/since my genetics classes
It is my understanding that viable offspring was a definition of genera
and that fertile offspring applied to the species/sub-species deliniation.
I further understand that even this no longer applies.
My guess is that now that we are starting to get a better picture of true
genetic makeup, all of taxonomy is about to be stood on it's ear. Let's
face it, ever since we've been classifying animals it's been, essentially,
judging books by the covers. Yes we use gross and microscopic anatomical
similarities, etc., but all of these criteria have been used to determine
genetic similarity. As good as we may have done, I think that we're bound
to be in for a surprise or two once we go to the source.
Angela K Rolling
>Thanks to all who responded to my question about the Mobrella. I
>appreciate information and opinions so I can make more educated decisions.
>I am confused here. What is the difference between hybrids and mutations?
> I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
>subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
A hybrid is were two animals of the same genuis but difrint speaces
are breed together to produce an ofspring that is a mix of the two but not
realy ether. Such as a mule or if you breed sun conors with jendays. A
mutation is a natural change in the genenome of the animal. It may or may
not be a visible aberition. While mutations generaly dont servive in the
wild long some can. Exsamples are albinoism in any speaceas. White face,
pearl, cinamin, pied, luteno, and falow in cockatiels are all mutations.
>What's the popular opinion about mutations? Does it occur naturally in
>the wild? Does it take place in the larger parrots (even in captivity)?
>If so, are there some examples with which I might be familiar?
Yes it does occure naturaly in the wild thou individuals that
express mutant traits tend to be rair as most are lethal in some way in the
wild. An indevidual that looks difrint from the rest of the flock tends to
be easer to single out. Besides the exsamples I just gave above another
would be any non green coloration in budges.
--
Elf-Kin
-Every inch of me that is not carnivorous is 100% vegitarian.
elf...@iastate.edu
Angela K Rolling
>>I am confused here. What is the difference between hybrids and
>>mutations?
>> I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
>>subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
>>
>>What's the popular opinion about mutations? Does it occur naturally in
>>the wild? Does it take place in the larger parrots (even in captivity)?
>I'll take a shot at this.
>Taxonomy is the science that "catalogs" all living creatures into 7 or 8
>categories starting at the most general (kingdom or phylum) to the most
>specific. We are most familiar with the two most specific categories which
>comprise the "scientific name". We all know that humans are Homo sapiens.
>Homo is our genus (general name) and sapiens is our species (specific
>name). A hybrid is a cross between two species. For us, it would be the
>offspring of a modern human with one of our ancestors, Homo erectus, for
>example.
>A Scarlet macaw is Ara (genus) macao (species) and a Blue and Gold macaw
>is Ara (same genus) ararauna (different species). While it is clear that
>these birds are closely related, they are of different species and
>breeding them would result in a hybrid. Most same genus hybrids are
>possible but frequently result in offspring that are infertile.
>Unfortunately, this has proven to be untrue with many parrot hybrids.
>Mutations occur within a species. For example, all Cockatiels are
>Nymphicus hollandicus, yet we see Lutinos, Pearlies, Greys, Pieds, etc.
>(I'm not much of a Cockatiel expert, although I have 5 wonderful rescued
>'tiels.) This comes from selectively breeding birds that are prone to the
>characteristics that we want. This is a huge oversimplification as any
>geneticist will tell you, but it is the general idea. It is my
>understanding that mutations do occur in nature, but at a very small rate.
>(I am not certain of this.)
>The best example of mutations are domestic dogs. All domestic dogs are the
>same species yet we have everything from the Great Dane to the Chihuaua.
>This is nothing but selective breeding. The big downside of so much
>inbreeding (aside from the British royal family) is that not only are the
>desired traits passed along, but so are all the negative traits (these are
>usually rescessive genes but in a closed breeding pool stand an increased
>chance of meeting up with ona another). This is why so many "purebred" (a
>huge misnomer since they have the same genetic structure as a "mutt") dogs
>aren't as smart as mutts, have a shorter lifespan and suffer from so many
>congenital maladies.
Actualy lack of intelgence in some speaces was do to breeding for
show looks, The speaces that have shorter lifespan are do to having been
breed for traits that lead to that such as dwarfism (cases reduced life
span in any indevidual that has it regardless of speaces do to the body
size:heart size ratio, if the heart is too small or large for the body it
gets realy streesed) and greater size. The congenital maladies are on the
mark how ever Inbreeding DOES NOT cause defects. If a genetic defect does
not exsist in the parents it wont exsist in the resulting population.
Inbreeding is a tool like any other. If used responsibly it can be a
valuable tool producing the desired results with out extensive problems. How
ever it is a breeders resposibility to exclude and animals that are known to
cary a defect. Breeding for a dominint mutint trait that causes sever
malidies in its homozougouse state such as murle in collies realy isnt a
good thing
>A subspecies is where, usually by virute of geographic separation, a group
>of a certain species forms traits unique to that group and distinct from
>the nominate group. We see this is many parrot species. The difference may
>be on account of some environmental preference for that trait (natural
>selection) or just through closed breeding. Subspecies do not come from
>species mixing.
I think this sort of technical talk is what probly confused the
poster. Some people have a hard time understanding genetics with it far more
simplefied then this.
>Animals survive because they have carved out a specific niche in nature.
>They eat a certain thing and a certain thing eats them all in the required
>numbers so that everything stays in balance. They have all evolved to be
>perfectly equipped to perform these tasks. Hybridization is the most
>unnatural thing an animal could do. Instead of refining their uniqueness
>and, hence, their ability to survive, they dilute it or step out of their
>niche. Even animals as closely related as the Scarlet, Greenwing and Blue
>& Gold macaws exhibit different diets, behavior and breeding habits, each
>of which has evolved over millions of years to assist them in surviving in
>the wild.
>Now, are you more or less confused?
>Layne
>Layne...@aol.com (Layne David Dicker)
--
the End
> genetic structure as a "mutt") dogs aren't as smart as mutts, have a
> shorter lifespan and suffer from so many congenital maladies.
My friend's Border Collie "Duncan" says he disagrees. :)
Jim
J. Graham
Biology Department
Washington University of St. Louis
(PS. It depends on what you breed for in "artificial' selection.)
the End
> Hybridization is the most unnatural thing an animal could do. Instead of
> refining their uniqueness and, hence, their ability to survive, they dilute
> it or step out of their niche.
Dr Jane Phillips-Conroy here in the Anthropology department would disagree
with you (I think). She has been studying the hybridization in the genus Papio;
hamadryas baboons in Ethiopia and yellow baboons in Tanzania, in a natural
"hybrid zone" for many years.
Philips-Conroy, J. E. and Sussman, R. W. "A survey of the distribution
and density of primates in Guyana. International Journal of Primatology,
124, 1233-44. 1995
Philips-Conroy, J. E., Jolly, C. J. Petros, B. Allan, J. S., and Desrosiers,
R. C.. "First longitudinal study of SIV in the wild suggests a predomiantly
sexual mode of transmission. J. Medical Primatology 23: 9-16. 1994)
"Niches" may have always been somewhat transient, and they certainly
are not becoming any more stable in most of the world today. The ability
to roll with the changes may be a more effective survival strategy, as
suggested by the dog, thought to be a hybrid of southern asiatic wolf species
with one of the many parriah common to Asia, Africa and Australia.
In terms of Max's significant comments, I think I can supply a bit of
desirable balance. Although man may not be the best decision mother nature
has ever made, he is certainly not "oustide" of the natural world. Indeed, he
is an integral part of it. This is the fundamental misunderstanding which
dominates our view of animals in the late 20th century, that nature is
everything beyond man's touch, therefore everything we do is then by
definition "unatural". Less than a single century of experience has
apparently replaced thousands of years of living as a part of the natural
world in our view of ourselves.
Jim
J. Graham PhD
jes...@news.djo.com
RO> I guess I don't really understand where subspecies come from. I thought
RO>subspecies were from different species mixing. <blush>
Subspecies are naturally occuring. Color variations may or may not. A
hybrid is the mixing of two different subspecies.
Example: In lovebirds, there are 3 subspecies common to captivity. The
peach-faced, the Fischer, and the Black-Masked. Of the peach-faced,
there are MANY different color variations. Color variations also exist
in the other subspecies, but not to the same level. A hybrid would occur
is a peachie was bred with a Fischer.
Let me know what bird you are familiar with, and I can put it in terms
of that if you are still confused. :>
Jesica
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