18-Year Old Cockatiel
Gloria Heim
with my friend for 18 years. He feeds her Sunshine cockatiel seed mix
and fresh food. She drinks from a water bottle and he mists her once a
week. She is still laying eggs. She's very vibrant, sweet, loves to
cuddle and flies around in her aviary (screened patio) effortlessly.
Jeramiah lives with her cagemate "Budgie" and has for some years. They
appear to be friendly, perching right next to each other at times but I
don't see them preening each other.
Just thought if anyone wondered how a tiel might act at 18 this might be
helpful. Does anyone have any older cockatiels?
Gloria
Alex Clayton
________________________
Group: rec.pets.birds Date: Tue, Feb 9, 1999, 10:10am (PST+3) From:
gh...@us.ibm.com (Gloria Heim) 18-Year Old Cockatiel
"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better
still to be a live lion. And usually easier."
>Lazarus Long
Mamabird
hard to type, but anyway...
My tiels are 11, 13 and 19. There's nothing in their behavior or
appearance that would make you suspect they're older birds, except Cheeks'
(the youngest) left foot is a little crippled from arthritis. It doesn't
slow him down though. The only thing is... I have to watch it carefully
and keep his nails trimmed because the way his toes curl there's danger of
a claw growing into the "palm" of his foot.
All three were on seed only diets before I got them. Now they get seeds,
pellets and veggies.
--
Mama
---
Visit "Mamabird's Nest" at: http://members.tripod.com/~iluvbirds/
Gloria Heim wrote in message <36C04FE6...@us.ibm.com>...
<snip>
smiller
> Just thought if anyone wondered how a tiel might act at 18 this might be
> helpful. Does anyone have any older cockatiels?
My family has a 20 y/o cockatiel that is a crotchety old man! :) He gets tiel seed and pleanty of his fav. food, "Cheez-It". He "acts" like he doesn't like any of the other birds in the house when anyone is watching, but we have on occasion spotted him "allowing" the other tiel to groom him.
Winnie Lind
> My friend has "Jeramiah" a female Cockatiel. Jeramiah has been living
> with my friend for 18 years. He feeds her Sunshine cockatiel seed mix
> and fresh food. She drinks from a water bottle and he mists her once a
> week. She is still laying eggs. She's very vibrant, sweet, loves to
> cuddle and flies around in her aviary (screened patio) effortlessly.
>
> Jeramiah lives with her cagemate "Budgie" and has for some years. They
> appear to be friendly, perching right next to each other at times but I
> don't see them preening each other.
>
> Just thought if anyone wondered how a tiel might act at 18 this might be
> helpful. Does anyone have any older cockatiels?
>
> Gloria
Our cockatiel, Herbie, is 15 years old and is very healthy and active. He
was not hand raised and we knew little or nothing about pet birds when we
got him but in spite of us he has survived well. He is on a seed based
diet, likes some fresh veggies, nutriberries, cherrios and grapenuts. He
is not clipped like our other birds but is well accustomed to the house
and has us highly trained to be aware of all doors, windows, fans, stoves,
etc.when he is out of the cage. He is only out under supervision and his
favorite spot is on my (Winnie) shoulder demanding scratches and kisses
and attention.
He's a great little guy.
Winnie and Tom, Herbie, Maggie, Elwood and Swee'pea
kay chokas
years...not sure how old she was when I got her (a friend abandoned
her). She was laying eggs right up til the end (died from egg binding).
She was subjected to ocaissional Teflon fumes, wouldn't touch veggies,
lived on a mixed seed diet. The only problem she every had with her
health was she was blind when I got her (the doctor told me it was due
to severe vitamen deficiency).
Kay
Mike Owen
Gloria Heim wrote:
>
> My friend has "Jeramiah" a female Cockatiel. Jeramiah has been living
> with my friend for 18 years. He feeds her Sunshine cockatiel seed mix
> and fresh food.
The oldest I know of is a 32 year old male cockatiel in Brisbane,
Australia, which has survived on a diet of seed and a sprig of
parsley each day for virtually all of his life. My own oldest
cockatiels are 2 aged about 12 years, and one 10 years, again on
a seed and fresh food diet.
It is interesting that ALL of the other replies I've seen to the
question from Gloria have survived to a good age on a seed based
diet.
cheers.
Mike Owen
Queensland
Gloria Heim
Mamabird wrote:
>
> I have an Umbrella Cockatoo's butt in my face at the moment which makes it
> hard to type, but anyway...
>
> My tiels are 11, 13 and 19. There's nothing in their behavior or
> appearance that would make you suspect they're older birds, except Cheeks'
> (the youngest) left foot is a little crippled from arthritis. It doesn't
> slow him down though. The only thing is... I have to watch it carefully
> and keep his nails trimmed because the way his toes curl there's danger of
> a claw growing into the "palm" of his foot.
> All three were on seed only diets before I got them. Now they get seeds,
> pellets and veggies.
> --
> Mama
> ---
> Visit "Mamabird's Nest" at: http://members.tripod.com/~iluvbirds/
>
> Gloria Heim wrote in message <36C04FE6...@us.ibm.com>...
> <snip>
Mamabird
Gloria Heim wrote in message <36C1EF36...@us.ibm.com>...
Doug Cook
cockatiels, I am
again compelled to get on my soapbox
regarding pellet diets:
In virtually every case the birds mentioned
have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of
this and
spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
poiison of artifical pellet diets.
Doug
"We are the people our parents warned us about" Jimmy Buffett
gwen
>
> In virtually every case the birds mentioned
> have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of
> this and
> spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
> poiison of artifical pellet diets.
>
I have to agree with this. My husbands Aunt has a tiel that may
be closing in on 20 years and she has been fed ONLY seed
for all of her life. No veggies or anything else. I suspect
she has not even been give a quality seed diet as these people
are not on the up and up as far as animal care. They love
her, but they no, no better. They live in a VERT tiny town
in Texas and ignorance around there as far as animal
care is about 99.9% of the population.
One other thing if people feel they must feed pellets
because the Manufacturers and Pet Stores have told
them this is best, they should invest in Harrisons as it is
the only real quality pellet. Take a look at the ingredients
in most pellets. It will tell the whole story. Any food
that has euthoxiquin as preservative, or BHT/BHA is
a danger to any pet. I do not give my dog this
garbage why would I feed it to my birds?
Funny think about Harrison's though, it is Sooooooo over
priced it is a sin. There is nothing in Harrison's that warrants
this cost.
"Flint River Ranch" for dogs and cats is just as good of
food at $45.00 for 40 lb bag. Of course you can't feed
birds, dog/cat food, but my point is Harrison's should be
ashamed for charging these kinds of prices.
On the other hand pellets are far convience, period,
and should never replace a good variety of fresh
fruits, veggies and grains, IMHO.
> Doug
>
> "We are the people our parents warned us about" Jimmy Buffett
Cheers,
Gwen
Mamabird
Are you speaking only of cockatiels or all parrots? What is about pellets
that you consider artificial and why do you say they're poison?
Doug Cook wrote in message
<29156-36...@newsd-214.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
After over a year of seeing posts on this NG regarding long-lived
cockatiels, I am
again compelled to get on my soapbox
regarding pellet diets:
In virtually every case the birds mentioned
have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of
this and
spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
poiison of artifical pellet diets.
Doug
Gloria Heim
and millet. Mostly he eats fresh foods, for which I am grateful!
Gloria
gwen wrote:
>
> Doug Cook wrote:
> >
> > In virtually every case the birds mentioned
> > have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of
> > this and
> > spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
> > poiison of artifical pellet diets.
> >
>
> > Doug
> >
> > "We are the people our parents warned us about" Jimmy Buffett
>
> Cheers,
> Gwen
Michael S. Jessop
Mike
Gloria Heim <gh...@us.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:36C2E945...@us.ibm.com...
:My TAG Gus eats no pellets and very little seed ... some hemp, safflower
Susanne Russo
have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of this
and spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
Doug,
Thank you Doug for pointing this out. Somewhere I had I book that broke
down the nutrients and vitamins in each seed...and can't find it. Do you
have any data as to seed?
I agree with you 100% as to pellets. Locally I have seen TOO many
convert...some were breeders...and some were pet owners. The poisoning
actually comes from a very SLOW yet gradual form of self-starvation and
malnutrition...even thought all the nutrition is suppled in the pellets.
When the bird reaches the point of malnutrition, what should be good for the
bird works against them. I've had 'well intentioned' pet owner come back to
me with a bird dying in their hand from converting to pellets...and the
necropsy's show self starvation. Several years ago in talking with one
pellet manufacturer it was advised if the tiels were older to LEAVE them on
a seed diet, because it could take up to 1 1/2 years for the system to adapt
to the new diet! Hmmm.........
I deal with a lot of cockatiels in a years time. Alot of people knock me
for it...BUT it does have it's plus's by having a large enough group of
birds to do comparisons. In every instance of purchased tiels on a pelleted
diet I've noted many reproductive problems and infertility. It has also
taken up to a year (in some instances) to correct. I brought this up with
one breeder, whom is also a vet. He did not want to hear it, and
fortunitely I found several other persons that had also bought his birds
that were having the same problems. It's funny though... the problem
further gets coumpounded with the use of fertility powders and Vit. E are
used to 'correct' the infertility problem. Essentially what I see is more
chemicals dumped into the bird. One of my major disputes with other
breeders locally is if you have to rely on fertility enhancers...you have a
problem...be it physical, environmental, diet related, incompatable pairing.
First you need to find out the source of the problem. A good healthy
compatable pair does not need this garbage. I've found the same is true as
to water suppliments/treatments in regards to yeast with babies in boxes.
If you can find out what contributes to the causes of yeast then you do not
have to use these products. Use of these treatments only masks the problem
and creates a more 'resistant' yeast...meaning when you do have a yeast
problem it is tougher to treat.
One of the major drawbacks to a seed diet is overfeeding. Many birds will
'cherry pick' and eat their favorite seed, leaving the rest uneaten.
Overtime this becomes habit. This is where the seed diet is not adequate.
Then the seed diet has to be rounded out with fresh sources (veg.) of foods.
I've done something for 5 continuous years that has worked great for me,
and I have only had positive results. In fact I've had someone here last
year that phoned from a few blocks away wanting to 'inspect' my babies for
future purchase...and he was surprised at the results and quality of birds
and babies on a strictly seed diet. He is indirectly associated with
Kaytee, and how I feed is in direct contrast to what he has been told.
First thing he noticed was the birds were eating seed, then he noticed the
amount...then he had to look at the parents...then all the babies. He had
commented that he would like the nutritionalists of Kaytee to check out my
babies. I will have to check and see if he ever followed through on it. It
was the amount that puzzled him. The parents were big healthy tiels and the
clutches were large and all healthy, with no undersized babies. I explained
to him I feed my tiels a 'measured' amount of food per day. This has
totally eliminated the 'cherry picking' of seed that tiels tend to do. I've
held back babies yearly and have several generations for comparison, and
each generation gets better.
Each pair of birds gets a 3 oz. cup per day of seed. As they have babies
this measured amount of seed is daily adjusted to amount of babies and their
growth. Most pairs will eat less than the 3 oz. per day (no babies), and a
few will eat slightly more...and this is noted. Many are in flights while
resting so I do a count to measure out the total amount of seed per flight.
Having the majority of them outside in natural sunlight helps. Here again I
have gone against the 'norm' When they are in flights and/or resting they
get a lot of extras such as veggies, bread, etc. When they are set-up and
with babies it is strictly measured seed, water, a small piece of bread in
the morning, and two times a week some dry monkey biscuits. Up til 1 1/2
years ago I had given the parents all kinds of cooked rices, etc., egg foods
etc., and had yeast, then bacterial randomly popping up with babies.
Through elimination of the majority of soft foods I have also eliminated
yeast and bacterial problems....and baby quality improved. Illnesses have
become almost non-existant. Baby losses are 3% or less. The birds are
basically chemical and drug free. 'Less' actually works out to 'more' as to
overall health of the flock.
The same approach has been done in handfeeding such as researching internal
temperatures of various species of birds and the regurgitated temps...which
on tiels is approx. 104 degree's for formula's. 10% (12-15% at night/last
feeding) of body weight tends to eliminate most problems with crop disorders
with tiels....yet still results in a solid healthy baby. Fortunitely I'm
finding articles from vets on the amounts and temperatures to feed....I just
wish the handfeeding companies would follow suit and have more precise
information as to amounts fed, temperature guidelines per species, and
cautions as to potential problems from overfeeding. In rare instances one
of the results from continuously overfeeding (quantity) a baby can be the
Vitamin D3 poisoning.
Sorry to get off track here. My oldest tiel just turned 19, is a father
several times a year, and has always been a seed eater. Another local lady
has a tiel that is 25 and is magnificent looking and looks like a 2 year
old. I know of other breeders with 17-18 yr. old seed diet tiels and they
are still active and healthy. In fact locally there are many older
tiels...and all on seed and balance diets.
Pellets have not been out long enough to really evaluate how benificial they
are to birds over the long term. I've recently heard several vets that have
actively endorced pelleted conversion now say the birds definitely need the
seed. Five years ago when tiels developed liver problems vets would have
the owners convert to seed. In the last year I'm noting that the vets are
prescribing lactulose treatments (to water) rather than converting to
pellets. Plus prescribing more excersise for the birds.
Susanne
gwen
>
> Doug,
> Are you speaking only of cockatiels or all parrots? What is about pellets
> that you consider artificial and why do you say they're poison?
> --
> Mama
> ---
> Visit "Mamabird's Nest" at: http://members.tripod.com/~iluvbirds/
Hi Mamabird,
For what is worth, there has been much controversy
in the "Dog" world about poisoning our dogs
with bad kibble. Many breeders have turned
to raw meat and fresh veggies and herbs for
their dogs.
There is a book out by Ian Billinquist sp? called
"Give Your Dog a Bone"
This book will give you an insight that dry kibble
is not really the answer as the large Manufactures
would like us all to believe.
For one thing is the way they are processed
and also the type of preservatives used in
most animal kibble.
Also in many instances corn meal in dry
foods are not meant for human consumption
and have all kinds of nasty things included.
Like sawdust from the floor etc.
Again look up some of the Dog URL's
and you will see. If I get I chance I will
post one the shows comparisons of various
foods.
Dog Journal Magazine just listed
top 10 dog foods. It is a holistic
mag. At any rate there are none
on that list that you can buy at
Petco, Pets Mart or Grocery.
Again go read the ingredients
listed on the brand of pellets
you are currently using.
I would be willing to wager
there is nothing in those
pellets that you aren't already
feeding fresh.
Cheers,
Gwen
BTW, how is your happy flock?
gwen
>
> Pellets have not been out long enough to really evaluate how benificial they
> are to birds over the long term. I've recently heard several vets that have
> actively endorced pelleted conversion now say the birds definitely need the
> seed. Five years ago when tiels developed liver problems vets would have
> the owners convert to seed. In the last year I'm noting that the vets are
> prescribing lactulose treatments (to water) rather than converting to
> pellets. Plus prescribing more excersise for the birds.
>
> Susanne
Bravo! Exactly! Again I think the Pet lovers
have been sucked into Manufacturers Paradise,
so to speak. We has lovers of our birds
and animals, want nothing more than the
best for them. We are told to feed them
pellets as this is rounded food source.
Well the horrors of kibble for dogs/cats
is beginning to become more
and more apparent. Kibble for parrots
has only been around for 10 years or less.
There is certainly not enough data to come
to any conclusion that kibble/pellets causes
longer, healthier lives in birds.
Gwen
Mamabird
>>
>> In virtually every case the birds mentioned
>> have been on SEED or primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of
>> this and
>> spare their birds from the slow-but-sure
>gwen wrote in message <36C28C...@utig.ig.utexas.edu>...
><snipped>
>Take a look at the ingredients
>in most pellets. It will tell the whole story. Any food
>that has euthoxiquin as preservative, or BHT/BHA is
>a danger to any pet. I do not give my dog this
>garbage why would I feed it to my birds?
What brand of seed do you feed, Gwen?
I feed Kaytee Forti-diet parrot, cockatiel, and sometimes Fiesta mixes.
These along with Kaytee Rainbow pellets and Lefeber's Nutri-Berries. Every
one of these list ethoxiquin on the label as a preservative, not just the
pellets.
It's also listed on Kaytee Exact hand feeding formula.
>Funny think about Harrison's though, it is Sooooooo over
>priced it is a sin. There is nothing in Harrison's that warrants
>this cost.
Boy! I agree with that! I believe people are misled here. They think that
because their Vet recommends Harrison's and believe that cost = quality
there HAS to be some really good secret stuff inside that fancy package.
Bull poopy!!! The Vet and Harrison's are the one's who benefit the most
(financially). The ingredients in Harrison's is nothing special.
>On the other hand pellets are far convience, period,
>and should never replace a good variety of fresh
>fruits, veggies and grains, IMHO.
>Cheers,
>Gwen
They should always be fed *in conjunction with* seeds and nutritious fresh
foods, not as a replacement. This is the diet my birds are on.
Susanne Russo
> the owners convert to seed>>>>
Opps.... the last word to the sentence should have been pellets.
Susanne
Susanne Russo
We have the same vet...and on a friends Overweight Amazon, rathered than
recomend 'the tried and UNtrue' route of pellet conversion for weight, he
recommended lactulose. So far the bird is doing great. This is just one
'for example' I've seen the same thing work with tiels.
Susanne
Doug Cook
kidney failure, and urinary tract ailments) on
manufactured diets than do other species
because they (and many other smaller Austrailian species) primarily eat
seeds in the wild-and much less fruit and plant matter than, say, Amazon
parrots. Maybe the content of some pellets are too varied for them to
handle.
Read the labels on the vrarious pellet brands--most contain
preservatives that are known to cause tumors in warm-blooded animals.
Some contain
sugars, and quantiies of salt and irons
in amounts that are higher than needed.
At least one brand contains titanium deoxide, which is called WHITE
PAINT in any other product. In many brands the artifical materials will
out number the
natural materials by about 3 to 1.
I know that I harp on this subject all the time, but it seems to be
common sense
that natural would be better than artifical
(with the possible exception of Pam Anderson, but thats for another NG)
I still believe a 3 part diet of seed, fruit/veggies,, and (certain
brands of)
pellets is a good program.
BTW- If a bird won't accept a pellet immediately, I think its foolish to
"convert"
or FORCE him into eating it, by giving him
no choice , as most "conversions" are accomplished.
Mamabird
Doug
Thanks Doug. I appreciate you taking the time to explain these things to
me.
My tiels' diet consists of more seeds than pellets, plus whatever fresh
vegs and fruits I can get them to eat.
I converted all the birds to pellets about 3 years ago. They all converted
fairly easily and I agree that FORCED conversion should be avoided.
Since then I've gradually re-introduced seeds back into their diet for
variety, along with their pellets, Nutri Berries and fresh foods. So, I'm
feeding the 3 part diet you recommend. The tiels and lovebirds get more
seed in their diet than the bigger birds do.
My brand of pellets doesn't have the "white paint" in it. :)
As for Pamela Anderson... if she has those things made any bigger, it's
going to seriously im"pair" her ability to bend over safely! <G>
The Werewolf of London
: Hemp? In brownies?
My tiels love hemp seed...the little junkies... ;)
Tina Marie Smith
grey cockatiel) and 35 yrs. (my yellow fronted Amazon). All six of the
children are extremely active. We buy seed in bulk from the local feed
store and have never limited their diet to pellets. They pretty much eat
everything we do within reason.
They get to sit out on our porch multiple times and day. We have also built
a shower system on the screen porch for extremely hot weather using PVC
pipes and garden mist valves. This is a favorite during the summer.
Alex Clayton wrote in message
<27015-36...@newsd-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Gosh I wonder how this bird lasted this long without a pellet diet? {:-)
________________________
Group: rec.pets.birds Date: Tue, Feb 9, 1999, 10:10am (PST+3) From:
gh...@us.ibm.com (Gloria Heim) 18-Year Old Cockatiel
My friend has "Jeramiah" a female Cockatiel. Jeramiah has been living
with my friend for 18 years. He feeds her Sunshine cockatiel seed mix
and fresh food. She drinks from a water bottle and he mists her once a
week. She is still laying eggs. She's very vibrant, sweet, loves to
cuddle and flies around in her aviary (screened patio) effortlessly.
Jeramiah lives with her cagemate "Budgie" and has for some years. They
appear to be friendly, perching right next to each other at times but I
don't see them preening each other.
Just thought if anyone wondered how a tiel might act at 18 this might be
helpful. Does anyone have any older cockatiels?
Gloria
"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better
Rottwlrs2
I had gotten 4 Cockatiels from a neighbor and she had 1 female and 3 males.
She said the female was 12 or 13, and stopped laying eggs years ago. Her
feathers were bald in a few places, but after a few weeks they grew in. The
previous owner had been feeding them cheap wild bird seed. I buy a mixture
just for Cockatiels, and grow some sprouts for them of the seed mix, too. She
like veggies, fruit and a little piece of bread in the morning. Well, not only
is she beautiful now, she is raising her second clutch, is an excellent mom,
and is super friendly (couldn't touch any of them at first). She even lets me
pet the babies in the nest box. I love her and hope Sweetie is around for a
long time.
Take care,
Lisa
George Hurford
I have never given a pellet diet either...But they get lots of people foods,
veggies, fruit, and stuff like that along with their seeds.
Tina Marie Smith wrote in message ...
Kellie
consider a good, well rounded Parrot diet- come on, I can take it. I
have concerns about pelleted diets and have reduced the percentages of
them fed to my flappers considerably. The bulk of their diet is fruits
and veggies, except for the budgies who eat more seed than the others.
My M2 doesn't like seeds, but does eat the occassional unsalted peanut or
other nuts. (I justify this by the fact that they frequently feed on
grasslands in the wild.) My quaker will eat damned near anything. The
new jenday has been on pellets and nutriberries and avicakes with
additional fruits and veggies as treats and I haven't had him long enough
to know about his dietary quirks.
Some questions-
1) Should each species of parrot have a different diet?
2) Do you recommend pellets as a small part of the diet, or none at
all?
3) About that budgie issue- is it reasonable to assume that it is
good for them to eat more seed than other types of parrots? They still
get parsley, and other fruits and veggies. If so, what kind of seed?
4) What is the DEAL with pellets? What makes them not-so-good? Is it
the processing? (I've personally stopped eating most processed foods. I
now only eat only whole grains only occassionally, and have eliminated
all sugars (except for on special occassions) and am dropping weight like
crazy and have lots more energy! I eat lots of fresh and steamed veggies
(with real butter) and I do eat meat, without worrying about how much fat
it contains. This is one thing that makes me worry about what we're
cramming into our pets! I do drink wine, which is essentially sugar, on
occassion, but won't let my birds have any!
5) I just got news that our offer on our new house was countered, but
in a positive way which means the seller will have most of the stuff done
that needs doing, so I've lost my train of thought about birdie diets! I
would like to read discussion about it, though!
Doug Cook wrote:
> After over a year of seeing posts on this NG regarding long-lived
> cockatiels, I am again compelled to get on my soapbox
> regarding pellet diets:
>
> In virtually every case the birds mentioned have been on SEED or
> primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of this and spare their
> birds from the slow-but-sure
> poiison of artifical pellet diets.
>
> Doug
>
> "We are the people our parents warned us about" Jimmy Buffett
--
Kellie
Kellie
> because the Manufacturers and Pet Stores have told
> them this is best, they should invest in Harrisons as it is
> Funny think about Harrison's though, it is Sooooooo over
> priced it is a sin. There is nothing in Harrison's that warrants
> this cost.
I think I have the only parrot in the world who doesn't like Harrisons!
They told me he prefered Zupreem, which my quaker and cockatoo scoff at.
My new Jenday, Willie, came with a variety of foods they'd tried, and among
the failures was Harrisons! He won't eat it! I put it in his bowl this
morning and - no go. He ate some orange and some avicakes, so that's
probably a good sign. If I can get him to eat fruits and veggies easily I
won't have to change our morning routine much at all, just chop a little
more!
--
Kellie
Kellie
here there was a definite Pellet ideal.
--
Kellie
Kellie
brownies to Greg's Mom, Kittie? Hee hee!!! There is a bird
related aside here- what happened to the Amazon she used to
have when the show started??? I hope my favorite TV junk
show star didn't get rid of him when she found out he didn't
fit in with her new lifestyle!!
--
Kellie
Kellie
> For what is worth, there has been much controversy
> in the "Dog" world about poisoning our dogs
> with bad kibble. Many breeders have turned
> to raw meat and fresh veggies and herbs for
> their dogs.
I was wondering if we would have to start feeding them all real food!!!
> Also in many instances corn meal in dry foods are not meant for human
> consumption
> and have all kinds of nasty things included.
Also, they now know that the corn based diets like Science Diet, et al, are bad
for dogs who need a high protein diet with only a little starch on the side.
(I mean, how many wild dogs eat corn when they could have Peter Cottontail?)
With birds, Like Gwen pointed out, it seems redundant at best to feed pellets
that are corn based if you already feed fresh corn, and at worst you're also
feeding sawdust and artificial chems!
--
Kellie
Kellie
> PAINT in any other product. In many brands the artifical materials will
> out number the natural materials by about 3 to 1.
Not to be confused with zinc chloride???!!!
--
Kellie
Ron Harney
> After over a year of seeing posts on this NG regarding long-lived
> cockatiels, I am again compelled to get on my soapbox
> regarding pellet diets:
>
> In virtually every case the birds mentioned have been on SEED or
> primarily seed diets. I hope people take note of this and spare their
> birds from the slow-but-sure
> poiison of artifical pellet diets.
I happen to disagree with you Doug. The main reason that these birds
have been on seed or primarily seed diets is because there WERE no good
pelleted diets 18 years ago. in regards to the cockatiel, I ask you to look
into the research that Dr. Lafeber did before coming out with his 'tiel
diet.
All of our birds (barring my finches) are on a pelleted diet, and we
just had the yearly "Mega Appointment" at the vets office. I heard "I wish
all of the birds I saw were as healthy as yours" at least 4 or 5 times from
her. While they do get fresh vegetables and whatever soak-and-cook each
bird prefers every day, the diet staple is Zupreem Fruit Blend.
I'm not saying seed diets are all bad, but I don't feel that all birds
can survive on one. For example, an African Grey on nothing but seed would
quite quickly develop hypocalcemia. I would rather trust a specialized diet
for birds with specific dietary needs, such as Pretty Birds Grey Diet, over
the early and painful death of one of my birds. Even my finches get
enriched seed, but I will most likely wean any babies I get from them onto a
pelleted diet.
Ron
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AOL Instant Messager: Fragnold
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Doug Cook
I usually use and suggest a mix of one third each-seed mix, pellets,
fruits/veggies. Kind of covers all the bases,eh? I think many pellet
diets contain things that your bird really doesn't
need to consume in quantity--these can be
limited by offering things besides pellets.
True, some birds will pick thru the pellets
to get to the seed and/or veggies, but most of my birds have eventually
accept
and eat anything.
I'd be happy to discuss content of certain
brands of pellets with you via private e-mail, rather than tie-up the
group with it--and I'm getting tired of being threatened with legal
action by one of the companies every time I mention them on the net.
I think that you'll find that most of these 40-50 year old macaws and
parrots out
there were probably feed only seeds for
two thirds of their life- with occassional
produce as treats. I also know of very
large successful African Grey breeding
operations that feed 75% seed, with 25%
fruit/veggies without poblems. Calcium is
added to the diet in the form of cuttlebone
and suppliments.
I'm glad that your flock is so healthy,but
don't give credit just to the diet--you are
also providing excellent care in all other
areas as well. Congradulations, and keep up the good work.
I'll try to make it down to a club meeting
if I can find a day off-Say hi to Mikki for
me.....
Ron Harney
>I usually use and suggest a mix of one third each-seed mix, pellets,
>fruits/veggies. Kind of covers all the bases,eh?
Not to second-guess you here Doug, but you did say "Slow poisoning",
referring to the pelleted diets.
>I think many pellet
>diets contain things that your bird really doesn't
>need to consume in quantity--these can be
l>imited by offering things besides pellets.
>True, some birds will pick thru the pellets
>to get to the seed and/or veggies, but most of my birds have eventually
>accept
>and eat anything.
I normally get around this by offering the pellets as a treat the first
few days we have a bird, however, I have recently been made a fool of by a
ringneck that we rescued..... the lil fart will turn the pellets to powder
and eat only his sunflower seeds..... I responded by changing him to a
safflower diet:> Pellets and veggies/soak-and-cook are still offered
though.... I hope he starts trying something else soon...... Crazy Korn is
not a complete diet to my mind:>
>I'd be happy to discuss content of certain
>:brands of pellets with you via private e-mail, rather than tie-up the
>group with it--and I'm getting tired of being threatened with legal
>action by one of the companies every time I mention them on the net.
The main problem here is proof..... but, if you can prove to me, on or
off line, that pelleted diets are harmful, I'll be the first to switch.
Screw the companies, they haven't met me yet. :>
>I think that you'll find that most of these 40-50 year old macaws and
>parrots out
>there were probably feed only seeds for
>two thirds of their life- with occassional
>produce as treats.
I would say this estimate is off a bit..... they probably got greens and
fruits a bit more often than that, or they somehow got some seed with an
actual nutritional value. I did massive amounts of research before I put my
finches on a seed diet..... it was not easy for me either. I finally
decided on Scarlett Nutri-Finch. I tried several, and this was the best one
that they would actually eat :>
>I also know of very
>large successful African Grey breeding
>operations that feed 75% seed, with 25%
>fruit/veggies without poblems. Calcium is
>added to the diet in the form of cuttlebone
>and suppliments.
I can see a breeder that could happen across a formula that could
support a grey pop...... but as I said in response to a query about the
Polyoma vaccine, show me proof that it works. Give me 2 years in which all
of the birds in said populations get a clean bill of health, with no
problems, and I'll give in.
>I'm glad that your flock is so healthy,but
>don't give credit just to the diet--you are
>also providing excellent care in all other
>areas as well. Congradulations, and keep up the good work.
I would be very happy with our fids if I could just get Gabby (my OWA)
to molt those damned tail and wing feathers..... it drives me nuts.
>I'll try to make it down to a club meeting
>if I can find a day off-Say hi to Mikki for
>me.....
I didn't know you belonged to the NWOBC, but when I run up to see her,
I'll let her know ya said hi. My fiancée founded the club (Jeanne Burton).
Try and come to the next meeting. I believe Diana Holloway will be the
speaker.
Ron (sorry, my ISP wouldn't accept your addy as a valid email address for
some reason)
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ICQ# 24450966
http://www.toltbbs.com/~dallamar/dallamar.htm
Kellie
> can survive on one. For example, an African Grey on nothing but seed would
> quite quickly develop hypocalcemia. I would rather trust a specialized diet
> for birds with specific dietary needs, such as Pretty Birds Grey Diet, over
> the early and painful death of one of my birds. Even my finches get
> enriched seed, but I will most likely wean any babies I get from them onto a
> pelleted diet.
The thing is that some birds are seed eaters in the wild- all the grass
parakeets, for example, eat lots of seeds as well as grass. I don't believe
seed is an adequate sole diet, either, but I think that fruits & veggies &
seeds/nuts are a better choice than just pellets. However, if what you're doing
works, go for it!
> --
Kellie
Kellie
> to get to the seed and/or veggies, but most of my birds have eventually
> acceptand eat anything.
My new conure came with a variety of pellets he'd tried and rejected. My
quaker always prefered Exact Original, but when he saw Willie eating
something he dashed over and chowed down extensively on Labefer today, and
Harrison's yesterday. Of course the conure wasn't eating THAT stuff until
he saw Shake doing it. He was eating Nutriberries! (They all get lots of
veggies and stuff every morning. I'm thinking of reserving the pellets for
night so they can chow on them in the am while I'm getting the kids off to
school.
> I'd be happy to discuss content of certain brands of pellets with you via
> private e-mail, rather than tie-up the group with it--and I'm getting
> tired of being threatened with legal
> action by one of the companies every time I mention them on the net.
Really? Threats???
> I think that you'll find that most of these 40-50 year old macaws and
> parrots out there were probably feed only seeds for two thirds of their
> life- with occassional
> produce as treats. I also know of very large successful African Grey
> breeding
> operations that feed 75% seed, with 25% fruit/veggies without poblems.
> Calcium is
> added to the diet in the form of cuttlebone and suppliments.
>
> I'm glad that your flock is so healthy,but don't give credit just to the
> diet--you are
> also providing excellent care in all other areas as well.
> Congradulations, and keep up the good work.
--
Kellie
Doug Cook
What kind of "proof" do you want???
"Research" published by someone with a
sales agenda is hardly valid. Feed processors have a quaint saying
"manufactured diets aren't for birds, they are for bird owners". Makes
sense to me.
I don't think a scientist or a manufactures PR firm can "prove" to
anyone that multiple preservatives, processed sugars,
and WHITE PAINT are healthy things to
feed to any bird. Not all pellet brands contain this stuff-but one brand
contains all three. Read the labels.
Your contention that a grey cannot remain healthy for two years on a
seed diet is utter nonsense. I have 3 congos that I
know went nearly 13 years on almost exclusively seeds--and as the
previous owner said "some apple a couple of times a year". They are
perfectly healthy, with the pair breeding, and the third bird in my
show. I'm not saying this is the way to go,
but it "proves" that Greys are about the toughest, most stable parrot I
know of. BTW these birds look great-not pluckers
as found in pellet-eaters. I'll hazard a guess that I have dealt with
with more
greys since 1972 than you will see in your
lifetime, in fact I've probably hand-tamed more imported greys (800 plus
CAGs, 300
plus TAGs), hand-raised more (maybe 400) and cared for more (over 10
thousand ) greys than most people will
see outside of Africa. I don't even consider a person a "breeder of
greys" unless they are holding over 50 producing pairs-anything less is
a hobbyist. I do know a bit about greys, and I didn't learn by breeding
finches and believing advertisements. Want to compare your "proof" with
my experience? Pack your lunch. Ron....because its going to be an all
day job.
Rich Peet
together on a prepared presentation of your choosing.
Ron Harney wrote in message <36d61...@news3.paonline.com>...
>Doug Cook wrote in message
><21095-36...@newsd-211.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>
>>I usually use and suggest a mix of one third each-seed mix, pellets,
>>fruits/veggies. Kind of covers all the bases,eh?
>
> Not to second-guess you here Doug, but you did say "Slow poisoning",
>referring to the pelleted diets.
>
> >I think many pellet
>>diets contain things that your bird really doesn't
>>need to consume in quantity--these can be
>l>imited by offering things besides pellets.
>>True, some birds will pick thru the pellets
>>to get to the seed and/or veggies, but most of my birds have eventually
>>accept
>>and eat anything.
>
>
> I normally get around this by offering the pellets as a treat the first
>few days we have a bird, however, I have recently been made a fool of by a
>ringneck that we rescued..... the lil fart will turn the pellets to powder
>and eat only his sunflower seeds..... I responded by changing him to a
>safflower diet:> Pellets and veggies/soak-and-cook are still offered
>though.... I hope he starts trying something else soon...... Crazy Korn is
>not a complete diet to my mind:>
>
>>I'd be happy to discuss content of certain
>>:brands of pellets with you via private e-mail, rather than tie-up the
>>group with it--and I'm getting tired of being threatened with legal
>>action by one of the companies every time I mention them on the net.
>
>
> The main problem here is proof..... but, if you can prove to me, on or
>off line, that pelleted diets are harmful, I'll be the first to switch.
>Screw the companies, they haven't met me yet. :>
>
>>I think that you'll find that most of these 40-50 year old macaws and
>>parrots out
>>there were probably feed only seeds for
>>two thirds of their life- with occassional
>>produce as treats.
>
> I would say this estimate is off a bit..... they probably got greens
and
>fruits a bit more often than that, or they somehow got some seed with an
>actual nutritional value. I did massive amounts of research before I put
my
>finches on a seed diet..... it was not easy for me either. I finally
>decided on Scarlett Nutri-Finch. I tried several, and this was the best
one
>that they would actually eat :>
>
>>I also know of very
>>large successful African Grey breeding
>>operations that feed 75% seed, with 25%
>>fruit/veggies without poblems. Calcium is
>>added to the diet in the form of cuttlebone
>>and suppliments.
>
>
> I can see a breeder that could happen across a formula that could
>support a grey pop...... but as I said in response to a query about the
>Polyoma vaccine, show me proof that it works. Give me 2 years in which all
>of the birds in said populations get a clean bill of health, with no
>problems, and I'll give in.
>
>>I'm glad that your flock is so healthy,but
>>don't give credit just to the diet--you are
>>also providing excellent care in all other
>>areas as well. Congradulations, and keep up the good work.
>
>
Kellie
(Dietary or otherwise?) I've heard recently that lysine is a substance many
parrots are deficient in, but that it is present in feathers which may be
why some of them chew. Have you had much luck curing long time chewers?
--
Kellie
Ron Harney
Doug Cook wrote in message
>What kind of "proof" do you want???
>"Research" published by someone with a
>sales agenda is hardly valid.
A third party research group would be quite satisfactory.
>Feed processors have a quaint saying
>"manufactured diets aren't for birds, they are for bird owners". Makes
>sense to me.
>I don't think a scientist or a manufactures PR firm can "prove" to
>anyone that multiple preservatives, processed sugars,
>and WHITE PAINT are healthy things to
>feed to any bird. Not all pellet brands contain this stuff-but one brand
>contains all three. Read the labels.
I did mention that I did lots of research before choosing the pellet
brand I use for my fids. While I do agree that sucrose is not a required
portion of a birds diet, I don't think it will harm them. Preservatives are
not a primary concern to me, though I admit that less is better. I've never
heard of the white paint being an additive, but I'll check it out.
>Your contention that a grey cannot remain healthy for two years on a
>seed diet is utter nonsense.
<snip of uncalled for hostility>
As is your contention that a bird on a pelleted diet will die a horrible
death from being poisoned. I made an informed choice when choosing the
diets I put my birds on, much as you did when you chose a seed diet. My
concern, specifically relating to greys (which I chose to make a point, not
because I have any interest in them.... I could have very easily discussed
how long lories would live on a seed diet) was because it was the first
thing that came to my mind. Yes, I breed finches, but I am working towards
a specific end in my breeding program. I find them fascinating.
I do have a bit of breeding experience, but it seems that yours is
broader. I have bred and raised 'tiels, and am now breeding lovebirds that
I hope to show later this year, if I have any that I feel would be
worthwhile. Since I was in high school at the time when most importation of
birds was stopped, I didn't have the opportunity to gain the experience that
you have. I can say that I have had very good results from the birds that I
have tamed, so I must be doing something correctly.
> Want to compare your "proof" with
>my experience? Pack your lunch. Ron....because its going to be an all
>day job.
Again, I don't feel any of my statements were inflammatory. I
apologize..... obviously you took them that way, or something else set you
off. I have re-read my post, and the only thing I can see that would be
offensive is that I challenged your views, and asked for proof of your
position. My apologies for asking you to back up a statement. I'm not
going to get involved in a flamefest here, so as far as I'm concerned my
involvement in this thread is at an end. Should you care to continue this
discussion, feel free to email me, I'm not going to put the NG through it.
Ron
Jeanne Burton
Kellie wrote in message <36D70FB4...@worldnet.att.net>...
Not to jump in here, but since I live with one of the respondents here
(Ron), I can assure you that our birds don't live on pellets alone. They
always have bowls of pellets, of course, (with the possible exception of
Luna, the GSC2, who can empty any bowl in less than 15 seconds by flinging
it everywhere, and can unscrew any locking bowl in about the same time), but
they also get at least one type of Soak and Cook mixture every day in the
mornings, 4 fruits/4 vegetables every afternoon, and whatever we're eating
all day long, as well as sharing dinner with us. (We eat a LOT of oriental
stir-fry/steamed veggies and such, and we usually have at least one bird on
the edge of the plate) The larger birds also get a human-grade nut mix,
including brazil nuts, walnuts, and almonds and hazelnuts 3 to 4 times a
week, and everyone gets Nutri-Berries/Avi-Cakes as treats, and then we also
make Birdie Bread for them. I wouldn't want anyone to think that our birds
subsist only on a bowl of pellets every day.
Jeanne
Lawrence Lumley
> I'm not saying seed diets are all bad, but I don't feel that all
birds
> can survive on one. For example, an African Grey on nothing but seed
would
> quite quickly develop hypocalcemia.
Crap!!! My inlaws had a wildcaught grey female that they obtained as a young
bird in Kenya before the outbreak of WWII (for the history dropouts that is
in the late '30s) This bird was fed on a sunflower seed mixture until they
both died and the surviving parrot went to a retirement home around 1985.
To the best of my knowledge the bird is still surviving on the same diet in
1999.
Lawrence.
Lawrence Lumley
>
============================================================================
>
> >Further - the problem is that the blend individual Amino Acids required
by
> >different creatures varies - among the mammals, herbivores require a
> >different "cocktail" than do carnivores. Cats are different from dogs,
and
> >get different formulations.
>
> >Frankly I have to doubt whether the pet food industry have done the same
> >level of research into the dietary requirements of the huge number of
> >species of *pet* birds' needs as they have into fulfilling the market
for
> >cat and dog owners. Only two species and *zillions* more potential
buyers.
>
> I'd agree about pets, but quite a bit of nutritional work has been
> done for the poultry industry. Obviously, parrots are not chickens,
> but the whole body amino acid content of budgies is similar to
> chickens which suggests that poultry dietary requirements would be a
> good starting point for psittacine dietary requirements.(1)
>
> =========================================================================
> Essential Estimated Sunflower Safflower Peanut Budgie Chicken
> Amino Acid(a) Require(b) Kernel(c) kernel(d) meat(e) Carcass(f)Carcass(g)
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Arginine 6.0 10.0 9.4 11.2 5.9 6.8
> Glycine 5.0 9.3 9.3 10.4 10.8 -
> + Serine
> Histidine 1.5 2.8 2.6 2.4 2.2 4.1
> Isoleucine 3.5 4.5 3.7 3.3 h 94% 3.9 3.9
> Leucine 5.9 7.0 6.0 6.6 6.2 6.5
> Lysine 5.0 3.9 h 78% 3.2 h 64% 3.2 h 64% 7.1 9.9
> Methionine 3.6 3.7 3.2 (h) 2.5 (h) - 4.3
> + Cystine
> Methionine 1.9 1.8 h 95% 1.5 h 79% 1.2 h 63% 2.2 1.9
> Phenylalanine 5.9 7.4 7.2 8.9 6.8 6.7
> + Tyrosine
> Phenylalanine 3.2 4.7 4.3 5.0 3.9 3.6
> Threonine 3.7 3.8 3.2 h 86% 3.1 h 84% 4.0 3.4
> Valine 3.6 5.2 5.3 4.2 4.8 4.4
>
> Limiting Amino Acids 2 3 4
>
>
__________________________________________________________________________
>
> (a) Essential for growing poultry.(4)
> (b) Based on NRC requirement (4) for Broilers receiving a diet of 20%
> protein and 3200 kcal ME/kg.
> (c) From Robinson RG.(11) and Sastry, MCS, Murray, DR. (17)
> (d) From Vanetten et al.(12) and Food and Agriculture. (13)
> (e) From Food and Agriculture Organization(13) and Pancholy et al.
(14)
> (f) From Massey DM, Sellwood EHB, Waterhouse CE.(15)
> (g) From Scott ML.(16)
> (h) Limiting amino acids and % of requirement supplied when compared
> to estimated requirements.
>
>
> (1) http://www.rchagen.com
>
Kellie
> Not to jump in here, but since I live with one of the respondents here
> (Ron), I can assure you that our birds don't live on pellets alone. They
> always have bowls of pellets, of course, (with the possible exception of
> Luna, the GSC2, who can empty any bowl in less than 15 seconds by flinging
> it everywhere, and can unscrew any locking bowl in about the same time), but
> they also get at least one type of Soak and Cook mixture every day in the
> mornings, 4 fruits/4 vegetables every afternoon, and whatever we're eating
> all day long, as well as sharing dinner with us. (We eat a LOT of oriental
> stir-fry/steamed veggies and such, and we usually have at least one bird on
> the edge of the plate) The larger birds also get a human-grade nut mix,
> including brazil nuts, walnuts, and almonds and hazelnuts 3 to 4 times a
> week, and everyone gets Nutri-Berries/Avi-Cakes as treats, and then we also
> make Birdie Bread for them. I wouldn't want anyone to think that our birds
> subsist only on a bowl of pellets every day.
>
> Jeanne
--
Kellie
Doug Cook
Sorry about the hostile tone of my replies-
in this case it was unintentional, as I was
typing during the fever-fogged misery of the worst "flu" I have ever
sufferred .,
Regarding greys and seed diets, I am very
uneasy about the reference materials available in this area . In
aviculture (and
most everything else) it seems the "authors" may have a string of
letters after
their name, but little or no practical experience. Their research is
just a reshuffling of 2nd, 3rd, and 100th hand material. For example, in
1974 I was working at an aquarium in FL, we had just
rescued an injured manatee and her calf.
We recieved a call from a man that was referred to as the worlds
"authority" on these animals in books and National Geo,
he was in town and asked to see the animals, naturally, we welcomed
him. When he got to the pool, he was giddy like a kid, saying "I didn't
know they were so big!" and "Are they all that color?" Later
conversation revealed that untill now, this
widely published, world authority on Manatees had never even seen one in
the
flesh!! This is EXTREMELY common in the feather world, so you've really
got to
qualify your sources. I would much rather
listen to the advice of a successful finch
breeder, than take most reference books
content as gospel. At least I know that the
breeder has SEEN a finch. I feel comfortable discussing diets for greys,
because I have experience with them--I
couldn't argue the same points in the case of finches, because I don't
know much about them. I do however find them interesting, and will
eventually get into them.
BTW-the white paint in some pellets is usually listed by its industrial
name "titanium deoxide" (sp?). I guess it makes
for a "pretty" pellet, but I can't imagine that a parrot needs it in his
chow.
Again, no "hostility" intended......
Regards,