Boosting Toyota RV Power.
Dan Listermann
ourselves doing 55 in third with the flashers on. A mechanic told me that
we could soup the little thing up by getting a higher lifting cam, injectors
and a header. Or, he said, we could get a turbocharger and just "bolt it
on." Any drawbacks besides the money. We would like to go out west, but
there is no way I am going to climb I-70 west of Denver in third.
Dan
RichA
Hi,
IMO a couple. One is the engine is 20 years old. Adding something
that is going to increase stress and pressures inside the engine my
lead to an early death. If it's a newer engine then maybe it won't
matter as much. You want an engine that can pull not one built for
high RPM and racing. If you are going to be changing cams and headers
get someone who knows what they are doing and can set the engine up to
pull, without going to redline.
After adding all that stuff to the little Toyota engine you may be
able to go 60 in third with the flashers on :) I've never seen a
turbo charger that was just a bolt it on and go, nothing is that easy.
If it has a carburetor then going to fuel injection should help some.
Maybe a different rear end gear might help too.
If money is no drawback just get a newer engine with fuel injection
and a little more HP and replace what's in there now, if that is
possible.
Take care and Happy Campin...
RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"
Bob Hatch
news:118fsol...@corp.supernews.com
Ya, that could ruin a whole vacation. It could take you maybe 10 minutes
more to get to the summit. Think of all the things you could do with that 10
minutes! Avoiding that waste of time should be worth several hundred, if not
a couple of thousand dollars. If I were you I'd do both. No, wait, have the
engine bored and stroked, then do the cam, injector, header and finally bolt
on the turbocharger.
--
"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed
by the things you did not do, than the ones you did. So
throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor
and catch tradewinds in your sail."
Mark Twain
http://www.bobhatch.com
Lon VanOstran
Why? We climb hills like that in second gear at about 48 mph. Heck, fall
in behind a big rig and climb it at 35. What's your hurry?
Lon
Harry Everhart
the Diesel engine. I was tempted but did not pull the trigger. It had a
four speed and the owner claimed 25 mpg. I did not know the quality ofo
Toyota Diesel Engines - until I saw one in a Land Cruise a year or two
later.
Harry
HD in NY
snipped
> Why? We climb hills like that in second gear at about 48 mph. Heck, fall
> in behind a big rig and climb it at 35. What's your hurry?
>
> Lon
That's the best advice yet.
HD in NY getting pokey in old age
Bob Hatch
news:118g3ha...@corp.supernews.com
What? Are you nuts. It's speed that counts. Speed and long days with lots of
miles on the rig. Up early, stop late. Sleep for a couple of hours and do it
again.
Some fools even stop along the way to sight see. I've heard of folks that
only drive a few miles a day. What idiots. Think of how much they're
spending on RV park fees.
Nope, move, move, move.
Don Lampson
Your rig is old enough to by liquor on its own. How much is all
this "souping up" that four banger going to cost?
For all the modifications you're dreaming about, it would be easier
to drop a V-6 engine in the rig.....
Save your money. When the Toyota is worn out, buy a newer RV......
Don
Bill McKee
More power and engine life measured in short lifespan. If you ereally want
to spend some money for more power, buy a used Toyota 6 and drop it in. All
the Toyota engines ( at least as far as I know ) use the smae engine mounts.
Have for many years.
Neon John
<d...@listermann.com> wrote:
Probably need to run the other way from that mechanic. A turbocharger
adaptation is pretty much the opposite of "bolt it on". Oh, the turbo
will just bolt on if you're lucky enough to find someone that still
sells the necessary manifolding but that's about 10% of the work.
Especially in a high torque application like yours. I used to operate
a quite successful tuning shop specializing in turbocharging Datsun
and Toyota engines of that vintage and back so I have some experience
here. Let's consider some additional things that must be done. This
assumes you'd want to make enough boost to make the expense
worthwhile.
High torque loading means higher combustion chamber pressure than in a
pickup or car with the same engine. Turbocharging makes it even
worse. The engine must come out for some mods. The combustion
chambers must be opened and dished forged pistons fitted to reduce the
pressure and withstand the inevitable knock under boost. The block
must be O-ringed (a groove cut around each cylinder in which a ring of
wire is fitted to clamp the gasket against the added pressure). I'd
probably also enlarge the head studs, given the load this engine would
be pulling.
A cam with less overlap would help economy a bit and improve the power
some but not essential. An oil cooler is a must. It needs to be one
with a thermostatic bypass so that the oil isn't undercooled in cool
weather.
A larger exhaust is necessary. Exhaust pressure quickly chokes a
turbocharger. If you live in an area where there are emissions
inspections, it might be tough to find a ready-built system with an EO
number that makes it acceptable to the inspectors.
A larger throttle body would help things immensely. We like to
achieve as high a pressure in the turbine intake at WOT as possible to
minimize pumping losses.
That all leads up to the big problem. Supplying enough fuel when
under boost and controlling detonation under boost. No one that I
know of has hacked the older Toyota EFI controllers so a wrap-around
solution is necessary. Several companies make boost fuelers but
they're expensive. Couple grand for a complete system. They're not
all that precise, making power being the primary objective, so the
economy is pretty poor under boost.
Next comes the ignition control. Boost requires a retarded spark to
prevent knock. There are two main method. One is retard the spark a
specified number of degrees per psi of boost. MSD makes a boost
retard unit that does that. The problem is, the retard is fixed. The
spark doesn't need as much retard at a given boost in cool conditions,
for instance, so power and economy is wasted.
The second method is a combination of knock sensor and mapped spark.
The spark is retarded according to the engine RPM and throttle
position. The computer inches the spark up until the knock sensor
installed on the engine detects knock. It then backs it down until
the knock is inaudible. The better controllers control each cylinder
individually. J&S Marine makes a nice little $500 box that does that.
I like to use both boxes. The MSD unit to lever the spark back before
knock can commence and the knock controller to inch it back up for
best performance. It takes a lot of work to get the combo right and
the cost of only one or two mistakes is collapsed piston lands (read:
new pistons and rings.)
An intercooler is a must for this kind of operation. Spearco makes
'em to order. Figure $800 for the cooler and plumbing.
Even if you do the work yourself you're looking at something in the
range of $5000. Probably more like $8000 if you hire it done. What
I've described is what it takes to make a moderately boosted engine
under heavy load operate reliably under extended wide open throttle.
I have a rogue's gallery of broken pistons and rods that document my
learning experience.
As to the "let's throw in a big cam" approach, I must point out that
this isn't a big V8 that is only producing maybe a quarter HP per cu
inch. It is a small, high revving (compared to a V8) engine that is
already making a little less than 1 hp per cu inch. It already has a
big cam by V8 standards.
Certainly more power is available but only at high RPM and at the
expense of low end torque, something that you dearly need. Put a high
revving low torque engine up against a heavy vehicle and the clutch
becomes the fuse.
I started out in a Keystone motorhome on the Toy chassis so I can
sympathize with your need for more power. Here are some things that
you can do to get a little more power for moderate money.
A better exhaust is first on the agenda. Find a shop that can
mandrel-bend (not mash bend like regular muffler shops do) you a 2.5
to 3" exhaust with a Corvair type turbo muffler. Several of the
aftermarket companies have scaled up the Corvair muffler to larger
sizes. Another good muffler is the late 50s caddy muffler. What GM
did with the turbo Corvair is cut the caddy muffler in half. The
caddy muffler is huge but it flows as well as a straight pipe and is
very quiet.
Next look to open up the intake. OEMs make restrictive air cleaners
to suppress noise. I found that on many Japanese vehicles, a few
strategically placed holes in the air cleaner upstream of the element
does wonders. So does getting cool air from in front of the radiator.
On the turbo 240z cars I built I'd run plumbing through the radiator
wall and place a large round custom fabricated air cleaner in front of
and off to the side of the radiator. This would lower the intake air
temperature by as much as 80 deg on hot days. Cool air == power.
If you're willing to remove the head then there are other things you
can do. A different cam can help but its specs will have to be
carefully chosen for this application. You need to find a cam grinder
who knows his way around jap engines. I used to use Racer Brown but
he died and his company changed a lot. You could buy a ricer hotrod
magazine at the newsstand and look to see what companies are
specializing in jap engines.
If you're willing to run mid-grade gas then one of the most direct
routes to more torque is increasing the compression. You should be
able to go up a point and still be able to run mid-grade gas.
Increasing compression significantly improves the overall economy so
increased mileage would partially offset the additional cost.
Since I get the impression that you're not a DIY'er, you really need
to find a tuner familiar with that engine. It'll take some work since
the engine is so old. I would expect that $2,000 would buy you a
significant improvement over stock. Whether it's worth it to you, you
have to decide.
John
---
John De Armond
j...@johngsbbq.com
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Dan Listermann
mechanic.
Time savings is not the reason I would like to go faster up hill. I fear
being run over by things. Anybody going 55 on the highway is taking their
lives into their own hands anymore. : )
Dan
"Neon John" <johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eccg81tk4rp8gjd0f...@4ax.com...
Wes Stewart
Dan Listermann
Bob Hatch
> Thanks John, I am going to print out you post and maybe consult my
> regular mechanic.
>
> Time savings is not the reason I would like to go faster up hill. I
> fear being run over by things. Anybody going 55 on the highway is
> taking their lives into their own hands anymore. : )
>
You might be right if you're talking about traveling on the freeways of
Cincinnati, but not on the up grade, or even the down grade of I-70. There
will be multiple tractor-trailers in the left lane going 35 mph or less.
It is your money and you should spend it as you wish, but your justification
above makes no sense. You will not be able to gain enough speed and HP to
travel in the far right lane, at auto speeds, in 4th. You have a rig that
was not designed for speed. The very best thing you could do is to relax
your right foot a bit and stay with traffic in the left lanes.
Wes Stewart
wrote:
>"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message
>news:118h6dl...@corp.supernews.com
>> Thanks John, I am going to print out you post and maybe consult my
>> regular mechanic.
>>
>> Time savings is not the reason I would like to go faster up hill. I
>> fear being run over by things. Anybody going 55 on the highway is
>> taking their lives into their own hands anymore. : )
>>
>
>You might be right if you're talking about traveling on the freeways of
>Cincinnati, but not on the up grade, or even the down grade of I-70. There
>will be multiple tractor-trailers in the left lane going 35 mph or less.
>
>It is your money and you should spend it as you wish, but your justification
>above makes no sense. You will not be able to gain enough speed and HP to
>travel in the far right lane, at auto speeds, in 4th. You have a rig that
>was not designed for speed. The very best thing you could do is to relax
>your right foot a bit and stay with traffic in the left lanes.
I confess to not being too familiar with I-70. Is this highway in the
UK? If not, why doesn't it adhere to the rule that "Slower traffic
keep right"?
Or have you just been taking Mexican Reminyl instead of the real
thing?
Bob Hatch
Typing error. Right lane. Anyone but an engineer could have figured that
out.
Lone Haranguer
While taking a drive in the "Pimper" yesterday we saw an old cracker
box type Class A for sale. About a 20 footer. Didn't catch the brand
but it wasn't a Winnebago. Price $1000 or best offer. Didn't look
that bad actually. That size and vintage usually had a Dodge engine.
LZ
RichA
<d...@listermann.com> wrote:
>Thanks John, I am going to print out you post and maybe consult my regular
>mechanic.
>
>Time savings is not the reason I would like to go faster up hill. I fear
>being run over by things. Anybody going 55 on the highway is taking their
>lives into their own hands anymore. : )
>
>Dan
>
>
>"Neon John" <johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:eccg81tk4rp8gjd0f...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 May 2005 21:12:45 -0400, "Dan Listermann"
>> <d...@listermann.com> wrote:
Hi,
You are big enough that you are not going to be run over by things,
especially going up hills, where there are lots of other slow
vehicles, besides you. If you can't go over 55 on level interstate
roadways then you may have a problem. Sounds like maybe you just
want to go faster...all the time :) I've been on hills I couldn't go
up faster then 55 with our MH. 55 MHP upgrade with an RV is plenty
fast enough. Others can pass you, and it won't hurt :)
Like others said what's your hurry?
Lone Haranguer
> You might be right if you're talking about traveling on the freeways of
> Cincinnati, but not on the up grade, or even the down grade of I-70. There
> will be multiple tractor-trailers in the left lane going 35 mph or less.
>
> It is your money and you should spend it as you wish, but your justification
> above makes no sense. You will not be able to gain enough speed and HP to
> travel in the far right lane, at auto speeds, in 4th. You have a rig that
> was not designed for speed. The very best thing you could do is to relax
> your right foot a bit and stay with traffic in the left lanes.
I'd avoid the freeway entirely and motor the back roads.
LZ
Neon John
<d...@listermann.com> wrote:
>Thanks John, I am going to print out you post and maybe consult my regular
>mechanic.
You're welcome. One thing I forgot to mention. Do not under any
circumstances add a K&N air filter, despite what your mechanic may
recommend. You might as well just not have an air filter. This is
very expensive and hard won advice.
The advice from others in this thread to look at engine swaps is also
certainly viable. You might even find that a small block V8 would
fit. That is a popular swap for Datsun 280Zs. The V8 is smaller and
lighter than the stock engine. The Ford is the better engines for
tight spaces because the distributor is in the front. This allows the
engine to be tucked back under the cowl a little if necessary. Even a
slightly warmed V8 in that lightweight rig would be a stroker! and
probably quite economical.
One other thought. If a V8 won't fit you might scrounge around and
find a wrecked Buick Grand National. This car has a little
turbocharged V6 (small block chebby with two cylinders sawn off) that
makes great buckets full of power. Everything is already there.
Turbo, intercooler, tough engine, EFI computer with knock retard.
>
>Time savings is not the reason I would like to go faster up hill. I fear
>being run over by things. Anybody going 55 on the highway is taking their
>lives into their own hands anymore. : )
No need to explain. "I want to" is all the justification you need.
Wes Stewart
wrote:
[snip]
>Typing error. Right lane. Anyone but an engineer could have figured that
>out.
I see.
"There will be multiple tractor-trailers in the *left* lane going 35
mph or less."
"You will not be able to gain enough speed and HP to travel in the
*far right* lane..."
"...relax your right foot a bit and stay with traffic in the *left*
lanes."
Once is a typo, easily identified and forgiven. Three times, we
engineers figure you really mean it.
Bob Hatch
Ya, I got the lanes mixed up. Typed right when I meant left, left when I
meant right. I screwed up. So? What does that have to do with drugs in
Mexico.
Can I now expect you to follow me all over the newsgroup, making corrections
when ever you can, referring to drugs in Mexico.
Bob Hatch
news:re3i815kq364nub71...@4ax.com
>>
> Hey, Bob, you're right . . . errr, I mean left, ... err, oh, hell,
> never mind - let the engineers figure it out ;-)
If you think that's bad you should drive while I act as navigator. :-)
We left Tunica heading to New Orleans. We're in St. Louis. <VBG>
Ron(Fla)
Or go to a junkyard and get a 96 or later Toy V6 engine (183 hp) and add a
TRD (Toyota Racing Development) supercharger. That will get you 250-260 hp.
Of course, it will then need 93 octane and I would suggest cooler plugs.
Ron
L...@goforit.net
Would that leave the OP with a mpg situation or gpm?
Lou
Ron(Fla)
>> >
>>
>> Or go to a junkyard and get a 96 or later Toy V6 engine (183 hp) and add
>> a
>> TRD (Toyota Racing Development) supercharger. That will get you 250-260
>> hp.
>> Of course, it will then need 93 octane and I would suggest cooler plugs.
>>
>> Ron
>
> Would that leave the OP with a mpg situation or gpm?
>
> Lou
>
>
Where I am staying now, I am getting ~15 mpg with my 2K 4Runner. But each
time I go to town it's up and down a mountain. In Fl I get 16-20 mpg, and
when I pulled a 2K lb trailer to NJ, I got 17.5 mpg. The one thing I am
sure about is that he could get from gas station to gas station faster.
Ron
Dan Listermann
"Ron(Fla)" <arkay_H...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mIVFe.40475$5N3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
For me, it is a safety thing. I hate uphill entrance ramps. I have talked
it over with my mechanic. It is his opinion that, for all practical
purposes, I need to stick with my five pound bag.
Dan
Ron(Fla)
>> thing I am sure about is that he could get from gas station to gas
>> station faster.
>
>
Actually, that's why I added the SC'r. We don't street race it, it just
gives us that extra margin when merging and passing. I was also think about
a small TT, but decided against it due to the short wheel base.
Ron
Dan Listermann
How was the supercharger to install? My mechanic started going on about how
much you can fit in a five pound bag when I talked to him about this.
Dan
Ron(Fla)
replacement for the intake manifold. That's why I included the comment
about an engine change. And I would also verify with TRD the compatibility
of any engine. Mine is a 2000.
Ron