OT - experience with tankless home water heater?
GBinNC
I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
A minor motivation is to recover the basement floor space used by the
present heater and use it for something else. The tankless type mounts
on the wall and would go where the existing plumbing is.
Purchase/installation costs are not a significant factor -- but
functionality and efficiency of operation are.
I would appreciate opinions/advice from those who have used -- or even
seriously considered -- this type. Tankless water heaters are common
in Great Britain (and I suppose other parts of Europe), although the
ones I saw there were electric.
Thanks.
GB in NC
Tex Houston
GBinNC
<texho...@pcisys.net666> wrote (nothing):
Um, thanks, Tex...<g>
GB in NC
Tex Houston
apologies.
Gas powered demand water heaters work just fine and became quite common
after the discovery of natural gas deposits in the North Sea dropped prices.
I had an electrically heated wall mounted water tank in my flat in the
Netherlands but lots of my friends had the gas heated ones. Tankless is not
exactly true because most had a small tank of very hot water which was fed
into the stream very much like the instant hot water installations on
kitchen sinks for tea, etc.
"GBinNC" <GBi...@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
news:44nqfuo1r5rjpev8m...@4ax.com...
> Hi again, folks --
><snipped>
Madeleine
alone and there is no way that I need a tank larger than 30 gallons.
Seems all the really efficient water heaters are 40, 50 or more gallons.
On demand seems especially suited to me since I travel for so many
months each year.
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/
www.anticattic.com
"GBinNC" <GBi...@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
news:44nqfuo1r5rjpev8m...@4ax.com...
: Hi again, folks --
:
Vigilance Committee
I've never owned one but have talked to several people who owned them
and thought highly of them.
LZ
MrFixit
> I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
> with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
> 500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
> problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
>
>
> functionality and efficiency of operation are.
>
> I would appreciate opinions/advice from those who have used -- or even
> seriously considered -- this type. Tankless water heaters are common
> in Great Britain (and I suppose other parts of Europe), although the
> ones I saw there were electric.
>
> Thanks.
>
> GB in NC
Finally a subject I can help in this group. I am an appliance repairman in
Minnesota and have worked on all sorts of water heaters; electric, gas,
instantaneous and tanks.
From my experience tankless water heaters are a very good buy for people who
use hot water over a long period of time, I.E. 30 minute showers, filling up
a whirlpool tub, have a teenager in the house(see 30 minute shower). They
are also good for people who are gone for long periods of time, they don't
have to keep 40 gals of water hot to have hot water when they get home. This
really saves money for these people.
The down sides I have seen are initial cost is higher. There are more moving
parts--->more chances for break downs, they are relatively new in quantity
in this area so I can't tell what their repair history is yet. Also if you
live in an area that has hard water especially lime in the water you may
have to have the tubes delimed/cleaned occasionally I have only seen one
with problems due to this and it was 10 years old and had heavy use. The
only other possible problem that I have seen is that people don't realize
they have to size it for their house and water usage, example:if you have a
shower running @ 2.5 GPM and the wife decides to run the laundry @ 2 GPM
then you will have your hot shower fade to cold in short order. You can
always get a larger one and not have to worry about it but there is a
minimum water flow to prevent overheating metal in the heater.
Most of the reviews I have seen have been positive and the few problems I
have seen in the field have been operator error and misunderstanding how the
thing should work (can't have all faucets on at same time and expect hot
water)
My advice go for it I think you will love it like many of my customers have
loved them...I do not sell or install them, just fix'em.
MrFixit
"Money can't buy happiness; but it can buy the misery I prefer."
Alan Robinson
>
> I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my
home
> with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type.
> I would appreciate opinions/advice from those who have used --
or even
> seriously considered -- this type. Tankless water heaters are
common
> in Great Britain (and I suppose other parts of Europe),
although the
> ones I saw there were electric.
>
> Thanks.
>
> GB in NC
Try a google search in alt.energy.homepower - there have been
several discussions in the last year or two. Biggest problem,
apparently, is finding one that works well with *small* amounts
of hotwater demand - they all seem to work well wide open. HTH,
Alan
Wes Stewart
I would go tankless in a heartbeat if I could. Unfortunately, no
natural gas or propane piping and the electric service to the hot
water heater is only 30 A.
If I had the wiring capacity I would use one of the SETS models:
http://www.tankless-water-heater.com/products.html
The tank is in an indoor closet, the floors are concrete and the roof
is flat with open beam ceilings and no crawl space. So I'm stuck.
Wes Stewart
Neon John
wrote:
>Perhaps this time I will get some of my reply in prior to transmitting. My
>apologies.
>
>Gas powered demand water heaters work just fine and became quite common
>after the discovery of natural gas deposits in the North Sea dropped prices.
>I had an electrically heated wall mounted water tank in my flat in the
>Netherlands but lots of my friends had the gas heated ones. Tankless is not
>exactly true because most had a small tank of very hot water which was fed
>into the stream very much like the instant hot water installations on
>kitchen sinks for tea, etc.
Nope. Tankles is exactly true. Between my cabin and my place here I have 4
gas ones and 3 electric point-of-use ones. None have tanks and all heat water
on demand. I've been using tankless heaters for at least 20 years and have
NEVER seen one with a tank.
GB, I started to write a nice piece on tankless waterheaters like I did on the
Tellico road but your smart-assed comment to Tex's accidental transmission,
like the innumerable others from you, Hampton and a few others that makes this
group miserable, was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Each of us can spend our time making this group an enjoyable place or we can
make it a hostile and unpleasant one. You and a few others seem to have
chosen the latter path.
Rather than continuing to fool myself that things will get better while
knowing that it won't, I give up and use the kill file.
Bye,
John
>
>
>"GBinNC" <GBi...@yahoooo.com> wrote in message
>news:44nqfuo1r5rjpev8m...@4ax.com...
>> Hi again, folks --
>><snipped>
>> I would appreciate opinions/advice from those who have used -- or even
>> seriously considered -- this type. Tankless water heaters are common
>> in Great Britain (and I suppose other parts of Europe), although the
>> ones I saw there were electric.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> GB in NC
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Technobarbarian
>Hi again, folks --
>
>I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
>with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
>500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
>problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
I have one that I used in my pre-RV boondocking days and love
it. As long as you have propane you have hot water. Friends of ours
use one in their rural home without apparent serious problems, despite
the very hard water here in southern Arizona.
Dennis
No Spam
Seems to me that GB's comment was clearly in jest. Might go easier on the
old ticker if you were to lighten up a bit.
GBinNC
<johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>GB, I started to write a nice piece on tankless waterheaters like I did on the
>Tellico road but your smart-assed comment to Tex's accidental transmission,
>like the innumerable others from you, Hampton and a few others that makes this
>group miserable, was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Thanks for the thought anyway. However:
I think you missed the intended humor. I knew -- or assumed, anyway --
that he had accidentally hit the "send" button too soon and was just
good-naturedly ribbing him about it -- just as I would expect someone
to rib me if if I did the same thing.
I don't know of anybody else who considers this group "miserable."
Perhaps that says something about you rather than the rest of us.
Would you like for me to return the Tellico post to you, or would you
prefer that I just try not to enjoy the trip? <g>
GB in NC
GBinNC
<johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>GB, I started to write a nice piece on tankless waterheaters like I did on the
>Tellico road but your smart-assed comment to Tex's accidental transmission,
I should have also mentioned that if Tex lets me know he was offended
by my gentle ribbing I'll certainly apologize to him. Otherwise I'll
assume that *his* sense of humor is intact...
GB in NC
cruxgems
> I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
> with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
> 500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
> problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
They're very common in Europe. That's all we found in motels on the
Iberian peninsula. Often wondered why they weren't more popular in the
U.S.
Neon John
wrote:
>Haven't done it yet, but I'm going to get one of these also. I live
>alone and there is no way that I need a tank larger than 30 gallons.
>Seems all the really efficient water heaters are 40, 50 or more gallons.
>On demand seems especially suited to me since I travel for so many
>months each year.
Actually what I like the tankless heater for most is when I'm in the mood for
one of those 150 gallon soak/showers. Any amount of water I want to use is
available.
One of the things you need to be aware of if you get a tankless heater. That
is, they are very susceptible to freezing. The heater must either be located
in conditioned spaces or a freeze protection kit fitted. Even the freeze
protection kit won't protect when it gets VERY cold. If you leave your house
heatless while you travel, you will have to fully drain the heater. If it is
installed with the proper valves, this isn't a big deal but it must be planned
for.
Of course, if you live in an area that doesn't freeze, ignore the above :-)
John
Neon John
>I would go tankless in a heartbeat if I could. Unfortunately, no
>natural gas or propane piping and the electric service to the hot
>water heater is only 30 A.
>
>If I had the wiring capacity I would use one of the SETS models:
>
>http://www.tankless-water-heater.com/products.html
Unless you're into navy-type showers or cold showers, this is way too much
money for way too little performance. Look at the 220 - 1.5gpm @ 100 deg F
rise. When the water is coming in just above freezing in the winter time, 140
deg water at that low a flow isn't much. Even that little bit of performance
costs you fully half your mains capacity on a typical 200 amp service.
In contrast, the unit I use is capable of 5 gpm at 100 deg rise on NG or
propane. More importantly, I get proportionally more rise at lower flow. AND
I have a more responsive unit. My previous unit could do 3.5 gpm at 100 deg
rise. In the dead of winter when the water was almost freezing, I found that
extremely lacking for showers plus it took forever to fill up the washing
machine.
I'd not consider anything other than a gas unit even if I had to have a tank
installed just for the heater. If I couldn't install a propane tank, I'd
probably consider moving :-) I like my tankless heaters that well.
Wes Stewart
<johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
|On Wed, 05 Jun 2002 04:49:55 GMT, n7ws at arrl net (Wes Stewart) wrote:
|
|>I would go tankless in a heartbeat if I could. Unfortunately, no
|>natural gas or propane piping and the electric service to the hot
|>water heater is only 30 A.
|>
|>If I had the wiring capacity I would use one of the SETS models:
|>
|>http://www.tankless-water-heater.com/products.html
|
|Unless you're into navy-type showers or cold showers, this is way too much
|money for way too little performance. Look at the 220 - 1.5gpm @ 100 deg F
|rise. When the water is coming in just above freezing in the winter time, 140
|deg water at that low a flow isn't much. Even that little bit of performance
|costs you fully half your mains capacity on a typical 200 amp service.
Who in the heck needs 140 deg water? For showering, 105 is probably
all I would want. Then, I live in Tucson, where the incoming water is
probably 60 degrees in the winter, so I need maybe 50 deg rise max.
So I would probably be looking at a 60A unit. That's 60A when the
faucet is running. Zero A when it isn't. That beats 30A running for
who knows how long trying to maintain 80 gal at 120F.
|
|In contrast, the unit I use is capable of 5 gpm at 100 deg rise on NG or
|propane. More importantly, I get proportionally more rise at lower flow. AND
|I have a more responsive unit. My previous unit could do 3.5 gpm at 100 deg
|rise. In the dead of winter when the water was almost freezing, I found that
|extremely lacking for showers plus it took forever to fill up the washing
|machine.
|
|I'd not consider anything other than a gas unit even if I had to have a tank
|installed just for the heater. If I couldn't install a propane tank, I'd
|probably consider moving :-) I like my tankless heaters that well.
If I had water coming into my house that was almost freezing, I'd
consider moving too. ;}
Wes
MrFixit
> I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
> with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
> 500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
> problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
>
>
> Purchase/installation costs are not a significant factor -- but
> functionality and efficiency of operation are.
>
> I would appreciate opinions/advice from those who have used -- or even
> seriously considered -- this type. Tankless water heaters are common
> in Great Britain (and I suppose other parts of Europe), although the
> ones I saw there were electric.
>
> Thanks.
>
> GB in NC
Finally a subject I can help in this group. I am an appliance repairman in
Neon John
>Who in the heck needs 140 deg water?
Me.
>For showering, 105 is probably
>all I would want. Then, I live in Tucson, where the incoming water is
>probably 60 degrees in the winter, so I need maybe 50 deg rise max.
In Tuscon, why would you buy any sort of electric heater? Why not take that
$600 and put a solar collector on the roof? Or for that matter, just a garden
hose? Seems silly to buy something that's free in your parts.
>|I'd not consider anything other than a gas unit even if I had to have a tank
>|installed just for the heater. If I couldn't install a propane tank, I'd
>|probably consider moving :-) I like my tankless heaters that well.
>
>If I had water coming into my house that was almost freezing, I'd
>consider moving too. ;}
My problem is that the water isn't near freezing nearly long enough each year.
I LOVE cold weather. I merely exist in the summer. Broke an all-time record
yesterday at 96. Sure am glad I had a walk-in freezer to retreat to. That, a
nice lounge chair and a good book and I'm all set for the summer :-)
Wes Stewart
<johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
|
|In Tuscon,(sic) why would you buy any sort of electric heater? Why not take that
|$600 and put a solar collector on the roof? Or for that matter, just a garden
|hose? Seems silly to buy something that's free in your parts.
Okay, since this is already off topic, I'll 'splain it to you. BTW, a
number of years ago I took a college course in solar heating and
cooling so I have studied this subject in some rigorous detail.
In my current house, I have on my roof a 3.3 sq. meter flat-plate
solar collector. Inside the house I have an 80 gal Rheem "Solar Aid"
storage tank that supplies domestic hot water. There is one 4KW
resistance heating element in the tank. This system was already
installed (by a commercial outfit) when I bought the house. Your tax
money helped buy it. Thank you very much.
The collector is plumbed to the tank via a circulating pump that is
controlled with a differential temperature sensor. The pump runs when
the collector is enough hotter than the storage tank---and--- this is
important, when the collector temperature approaches freezing.
"Freezing?", you say, "In Tucson?"
Yes, it does freeze in Tucson. As I recall the lowest recorded air
temperature was 6 F. Actually, I don't recall it; it was in January,
1913.
But, it does not have to be 32 F or below for a collector to freeze.
The collector is a mechanism for transferring radiant energy from
space to water---and vice versa. Because of inefficiencies, some of
this energy is also transferred to and from the surrounding air. Good
thing too, because when the sun is down and the collector is looking
at clear nighttime sky, the sky temperature is close to absolute zero
(0 K) and since the collector temperature is at least 250 deg K hotter
than this, it radiates energy back into space, thus cooling itself
off.
If it wasn't for the inefficiency and the air around it and the hot
water being pumped back into it from the storage tank, the collector
could freeze at room air temperature!
So, let's look at the payback for installing this system, or one like
it, in sunny Tucson:
From tables in my textbook or ones that you can easily find on the
Internet, it can be determined what total potential energy collection
can be. For 32 deg N. latitude with a south-facing collector, it is
about 2280 KWH/m^2 per year. Assuming a 3.3 meter^2 collector at 50%
efficiency and my current electrical rate, this energy is worth about
$365.
For the month of May (the peak radiation is in June, but May has a
higher average), there are 245 KWH/m^2 available. Running through all
the numbers, this energy is worth $41. Simultaneously doing some
assumptions based on my water consumption, I calculate that the
average monthly cost for heating water by resistance heating is about
$25.50.
Yes, in the summer months I can turn off the electricity and have
plenty of hot water. But, I am also throwing away payback dollars, as
there is more potential energy available than I can use. Once the
tank temperature reaches a safe maximum, the pump turns off and the
collector stalls. The radiant energy is given off to heat the
surrounding air--which we really need more of in the summer in Tucson.
Now let's look at winter. The tables tell me that with the worst-case
month, December, the dollar value of the collected energy is about
$13.50. But my monthly electrical cost is $25.50 (actually higher
because the inlet temperature is lower) so I have a shortfall and have
to turn the power back on. Not only that, but on those clear, cold
nights, the circulating pump actually turns on and sends hot water
back to the collector to keep it from freezing. There goes my costly
energy back into space.
To add injury to insult, on two occasions the circulating pump has
seized and the collector froze and burst. Proof positive of the laws
of thermodynamics.
The analysis I have been speaking of was actually done after the last
freeze and weighing the economic "benefits", including the cost of a
rebuilt collector and new pump, I have opted to abandon solar water
heating. It just doesn't make sense, even in sunny Tucson, AZ.
One last note. At my former home there was a tracking-concentrating
collector, also there before I moved in. This one also froze and
broke twice, as did all the others in the neighborhood. Sure glad I
don't live where it gets cold.
|
|My problem is that the water isn't near freezing nearly long enough each year.
|I LOVE cold weather. I merely exist in the summer. Broke an all-time record
|yesterday at 96. Sure am glad I had a walk-in freezer to retreat to. That, a
|nice lounge chair and a good book and I'm all set for the summer :-)
It was 107 last week but it's cooled off; only supposed to be 103
today.
Wes
Vigilance Committee
>
> It was 107 last week but it's cooled off; only supposed to be 103
> today.
>
> Wes
Since you have invested heavily in education, how efficient is it to
heat the water with electrical solar panels?
On another off topic subject, what is happening with that power line
they were planning to build to serve Mexico? I know there were 3
routing proposals, none of them very appealing. The power plant appears
to be being built near Gila Bend so I presume the line has been
approved. Haven't heard a word on routing approval though. I'd
appreciate a URL for an update.
LZ
Wes Stewart
wrote:
|
|>
|> It was 107 last week but it's cooled off; only supposed to be 103
|> today.
|>
|> Wes
|
|Since you have invested heavily in education, how efficient is it to
|heat the water with electrical solar panels?
Some quick research to determine the efficiency of commercially
available solar panels:
At: http://www.solar-electric.com/bpsx150watso.html
I find the specs for a "150 watt" panel. (Over $700 BTW)
This panel is approximately 30" X 60" or 12.5 ft^2 or a bit over 1
m^2. Solar panels are rated at "one sun" or 1000W/m^2. Doing some
number crunching the conversion efficiency of this panel is a shade
under 13%. This is about right for crystalline silicon.
There are higher efficiency solar cells, but we can't afford them.
(Hell, I can't afford this one) So figure 13%, less the loss in
wiring. A quick calculation in my spreadsheet assuming 1 m^2 at 13%
efficiency and $.095/ KWH, gives me an annualized value for this power
of about $28. This is for a panel fixed at the optimum south-facing
angle. By tracking the sun, the efficiency can be greatly improved at
the cost of complexity.
To put it in perspective, this panel, at peak output will light up a
standard three-way light bulb (150W). If I operate the bulb for 6.7
hours, I will use 1 KWH of power. This will cost me 9.5 cents plus
some handling charges using power from my friendly electrical
cooperative.
So if I spend $700+ for this collector I can run a light bulb. If we
could save up all of this energy, Bill down there in TN, could heat up
enough water to take his annual shower <g>.
|
|On another off topic subject, what is happening with that power line
|they were planning to build to serve Mexico? I know there were 3
|routing proposals, none of them very appealing. The power plant appears
|to be being built near Gila Bend so I presume the line has been
|approved. Haven't heard a word on routing approval though. I'd
|appreciate a URL for an update.
Offhand I don't have a URL. I believe a route was approved, but don't
remember which one, but whatever, there will be court challenges.
This is another power company scam. Supposedly this line is needed to
supply Nogales, AZ, but the real purpose is to send power to Mexico.
If they would use it to electrify the border fence, I would be all for
it.
Wes
|LZ
Vigilance Committee
He has found a more efficient method. He painted his bathtup black and
put it in a sunny location.
Bill lives in GA. If he lived in TN he could tap into taxpayer-built
TVA for .03 cents per KW.
> |
> |On another off topic subject, what is happening with that power line
> |they were planning to build to serve Mexico? I know there were 3
> |routing proposals, none of them very appealing. The power plant appears
> |to be being built near Gila Bend so I presume the line has been
> |approved. Haven't heard a word on routing approval though. I'd
> |appreciate a URL for an update.
>
> Offhand I don't have a URL. I believe a route was approved, but don't
> remember which one, but whatever, there will be court challenges.
> This is another power company scam. Supposedly this line is needed to
> supply Nogales, AZ, but the real purpose is to send power to Mexico.
> If they would use it to electrify the border fence, I would be all for
> it.
>
The biggest hoot when they floated this scam is that the line would also
be useful for sending power from the Mexican terminal back to the U.S.
Only problem is there IS no power generator at the Mexican end. When I
pointed this out in an e-mail two years ago they said it would be
supplied from the Mexican power GRID. Surplus power in Mexico? Ha ha.
Ho ho. Hee hee.
LZ
> Wes
> |LZ
bill horne
>
> Wes Stewart wrote:
> > So if I spend $700+ for this collector I can run a light bulb. If we
> > could save up all of this energy, Bill down there in TN, could heat up
> > enough water to take his annual shower <g>.
> >
> He has found a more efficient method. He painted his bathtup black and
> put it in a sunny location.
>
> Bill lives in GA. If he lived in TN he could tap into taxpayer-built
> TVA for .03 cents per KW.
> LZ
Thanks. I thought he was talking about somebody else, being as I'm bill,
not Bill, and live in GA, not TN, and take a shower weekly, not
annually.
And it's too hot here most of the year to take a bath outside - can't
ever get dried off.
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Wes Stewart
wrote:
|Bill lives in GA. If he lived in TN he could tap into taxpayer-built
|TVA for .03 cents per KW.
Why did I say Bill? I meant John.
Sorry, Bill.
Madeleine
water you may have to have the tubes delimed/cleaned occasionally I have
only seen one with problems due to this and it was 10 years old and had
heavy use. "
I live in an area with very hard water, South TX. How much trouble is
it to delime? My water heater would definitely not get heavy use as I
live alone and do only about 3 or 4 loads of clothes a week plus the
normal showers and hand dish washing for one person.
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/
www.anticattic.com
"MrFixit" <mrfixi...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:3cfed16a$0$11310$8f4e...@newsreader.goldengate.net...
: This might have already been posted but I do not see it on my
:
:
:
:
:
HHamp5246
I have very hard water here at the farm..... I saw a water softener in the
Camping World catalog made for this application..... pricey though....
Hunter
Madeleine
people here have them, but I've resisted all these years so probably
won't consider them now.
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/
www.anticattic.com
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020606212257...@mb-bh.aol.com...
: >I live in an area with very hard water, South TX.
HHamp5246
I do too Madeline..... that's why I have hard water here at the farm (c:
I think water softener water tastes salty.
Hunter
GBinNC
>I'm considering replacing the old electric water heater in my home
>with a propane-fired, instant-on, tankless type. I already have a
>500-gallon propane tank, so the fuel's no problem. (In fact, the
>problem is that I'm not using enough of it.)
I've reached a decision, and I want to thank all of you for your input
and advice.
I've decided to go with a standard tank-type 50-gal propane-fired
heater, for a number of reasons. Both types have advantages and
disadvantages, and I carefully weighed all the information I could
find. For the benefit of anyone else who is trying to decide between
the two types, here are some of my reasons, in random order:
We will never want or need "unlimited" hot water. My wife and I are by
long-time habit very conservative in our water usage, and especially
now that we're on a new deep well in an area that's suffered from
drought for a number of years. In other words, we know we don't have
unlimited water and we don't act as if we did. We have no desire to
take a "long, hot, soaking shower," nor do we have a big "playtime"
tub to fill.
After reading excerpts from other NGs where this topic has been
discussed, I've found that there can be a learning curve as to how to
get the desired water temperature while in the shower. (For example,
if you want hotter water you turn the hot water faucet DOWN, not UP.)
Although my wife and I could presumably get used to this, we have lots
of overnight guests -- sometimes including children -- and it would be
inconvenient for us and them if we have to educate everybody on how to
use the shower.
Many times during the day we turn on a kitchen or bathroom faucet to
draw just a small amount of hot water, for cooking or handwashing or
whatever. It would drive me nuts to hear that huge burner come on for
a short period of time every time we do this -- and yet accomplish
little more than filling the line with hot water from the heater to
the faucet.
We often use more than one hot water outlet at a time -- shower,
washing machine, dishwasher, etc. -- and with the tankless models this
can cause variations in the temperature at each. With the current
water heater this has never been a problem, because we're drawing from
a tank of already hot water.
Our well is over 400' deep, and the water coming into the house is
quite cold all year round. This significantly reduces the heating
capacity of the tankless model. A tank model can overcome this because
the cold water coming in mixes with already hot water, and the mixture
will be brought back up to the required temperature before we even
notice the difference.
If I had installed the tankless model I would have used the recovered
floor space to install a water storage tank -- whereas the tank type
conveniently eliminates this need.
We live in an isolated, rural area not near a city of any size. I have
concerns about the ability -- and experience -- of the typical plumber
in the area (that's not intended as an insult) to understand the
idiosyncracies of installing a tankless model or of any maintenance
that may be required (and I understand that some is).
Because we have occasional power failures, I want a water heater that
is completely non-electric -- and a standard, direct-vent gas model
with a pilot light requires no juice at all. In addition, the pilot
light will serve to help keep the water warm -- as well as the
basement itself, in cold weather. If/when we go on a long trip (not
likely any time soon) in warm weather, we can simply shut off the
pilot light and relight it when we return. For the shorter trips we
normally take, we can either turn down the temperature or just leave
it up, depending on the season -- and the water will stay warm or hot.
The new models are extremely well insulated, so there's little heat
loss.
We will probably sell this house in another year or two. A nonstandard
water heating system potentially could be a dealbreaker to anyone who
has reservations about it or doesn't understand it. With an almost
new, tank-type gas water heater I won't have to do any educating or
convincing of a potential buyer.
So again, I appreciate the input and the advice, all of which were
considered -- including Neon John's, although he was careful not to
address his comments directly to me. <g>
[I love this newsgroup...]
GB in NC
Wes Stewart
A nice well-reasoned decision.
Makes sense to me.
Wes
Vigilance Committee
This farm has very hard water also. You can put a drinking faucet line
before the water softener if you like. All outside faucets are also
before the water enters the softener. With a softener you will need a
LOT less soap, your skin will benefit and so will all your clothes and
appliances that have water going through them.
Newer ones are very trouble free. Plug them in, set the clock and
softening cycles and after that you just dump in salt every 6 weeks or
so. Any appliance store will check your water for the degree of
hardness so you can set your softener for the right dose of salt.
Cleaning your tub and shower will also get a LOT easier.
LZ
MrFixit
> it to delime? My water heater would definitely not get heavy use as I
> live alone and do only about 3 or 4 loads of clothes a week plus the
> normal showers and hand dish washing for one person.
>
> --
> Peace, Love and Serenity,
> Madeleine
> http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/
> www.anticattic.com
I have not had the pleasure of removing hard water deposits from a tankless
yet. The person who was having problems never called back to have it done.
From what I know you disconnect the inlet and outlet and run muriactic acid
thru it to remove the scale build up then rinse thoroughly. You do have to
be careful with doing this because if you leavce it in too long or you could
eat the copper tubes and end up with it looking like swiss cheese.
But by the sounds of your usage you probably will not have a problem for the
life of your water heater.
MrFixit
Lee Bray
and the salt used to soften the water?
Thanks Lee
"Vigilance Committee" <lin...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3D001901...@att.net...
Vigilance Committee
Lee Bray wrote:
>
> Just a question about the water softener! What about people with High BP
> and the salt used to soften the water?
>
Have a drinking faucet that taps in with the outside lines BEFORE the
main line enters the water faucet. Put two charcoal filters in line and
you will have yummy water.
LZ
Madeleine
--
Peace, Love and Serenity,
Madeleine
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/
www.anticattic.com
"MrFixit" <mrfixi...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:3d001b01$0$11307$8f4e...@newsreader.goldengate.net...
: > I live in an area with very hard water, South TX. How much trouble
:
:
:
BD (Dave) Thompson
"Lee Bray" <lb...@NOSPAMattbi.com> wrote in message
news:7kVL8.50602$2m.16...@typhoon1.se.ipsvc.net...
> Just a question about the water softener! What about people with High BP
> and the salt used to soften the water?
>
> Thanks Lee
>
While more expensive, potassium chloride will do the trick and will not have
the salty taste that some complain of with softeners. In addition, your
house plants will thank you. Just make sure your softener can handle
potassium chloride.
--
Dave
Neon John
wrote:
>I have not had the pleasure of removing hard water deposits from a tankless
>yet. The person who was having problems never called back to have it done.
>From what I know you disconnect the inlet and outlet and run muriactic acid
>thru it to remove the scale build up then rinse thoroughly. You do have to
>be careful with doing this because if you leave it in too long or you could
>eat the copper tubes and end up with it looking like swiss cheese.
That's why you don't use hydrochloric acid for deliming. The proper acid is
phosphoric. Hell on lime but ignores metals. And gentle on the skin :-)
>But by the sounds of your usage you probably will not have a problem for the
>life of your water heater.
No lime up problems in eastern PA with a tankless heater and that water is so
hard it rattles coming out the faucet.
Fred in AZ¤
Have had the ongoing project of setting up a piece of property near Payson
AZ...........the well, main power panel, etc are nealy 250 ft away from the
"RV sites".............for expediency purposes, have laid down 3/4" PVC pipe
on top of the ground from well to RV's..........the water gets plenty "hot"
sitting in the pipes....
When it's time to clean up........no need to ever touch the hot water
spigot...........the caution is to be ever-aware that you may get scalded!!
A cheap solution to hot water in the arid climes of the southwest would be to
create a closed loop within the hot water lines and install about 500 ft of
pvc........should be able to do with less than $100 in pipe/couplings/glue
from Lowes/Home Depot.
Fred in AZ