Hensley Arrow Hitch - Worth it??
RGMW Mom
a RAM 4x4 1500 SLT and pulling a Prowler 29S, that seems to want to go it's
own way.
We travel on weekends from May to October, and for 3 weeks in the summer.
It's a substantial investment, likely close to $5,000 in Canada.
1. Is it worth it?
2. Are they available in Canada?
3. Do you have a similar truck & trailer config?
4. How much trailering do you do?
I'm wondering if the difference in control is worth the very steep price, as
we are not retired and only travel on weekends and vacation.
Thanks for any help
Carolyn
--
Hugh Darling
considerable less money. Camper World sells them for about $900. The
advantage to the Hensley is it can be transferred to another vehicle as
it mounts on the trailer. If I were you, I'd invest in either one. They
make a bad tow a good tow and a good tow into an excellent tow.
Hugh
W F Sill
Carolyn, I am reminded of a old helmet ad. Trying to sell a very
high-priced line of brain buckets, the eye-catching copy read:
"IF YOUR HEAD IS ONLY WORTH $15, BUY A $15 HELMET"
Well then, if a good hitch saves your life, it's a good deal, right?
Well, not necessarily if it is fraudulently sold as a way of making a
weak tow vehicle suddenly become competent!
::sigh::
Take a minute and read my essay on trailer sway:
==========quote=========
Not long ago, "<kare...@aol.com> wrote
> . . . We finally checked our tires and they were very under inflated.
> Once we pumped them up, the sway went away. So, if you notice
> you are developing a sway, I suggest you check your tires.
Yes, that is one of many causes of sway. For the benefit of new
readers, here is some verbiage on this topic:
A trailer can sway for MANY reasons. Hensley, PullRite and 5th-
wheel hitches are vastly superior to conventional hitches but address
ONLY the level and direction of stresses the swaying trailer applies
to the tow vehicle, and better minimize the effects on the tow
vehicle. Trailerists concerned about stability would do well to use a
"good" hitch. But you must STILL pay attention to proper weight
balance, tire pressures, driving habits, and suspension conditions.
You CAN wreck your rig due to sway, no matter what hitch you use.
Here are some free tips:
BALANCE. TT's & utility trailers ought to have about 10-12% of their
weight on the tongue, fivers around 20% on the pin, and be more or
less equal side to side.
TIRES, both on trailer & tow vehicle, as noted above should be
correctly inflated for the actual load you're carrying. The best
pressure is that shown on an inflation chart for your actual measured
weight. Absolute precision is neither necessary or possible but do not
believe bozos who tell you to over-inflate.
ALIGNMENT of both trailer and tow vehicle suspension as well as the
hitch is important. You can't expect a trailer to track straight if
the tow car is hunting back & forth or the hitch is off center.
HITCH TENSION is a factor: too much tension on the weight-
distributing bars takes too much weight off the rear wheels of the tow
vehicle and is potentially deadly in sudden braking; too little
squashes the rear suspension, unloads the front, and lets the trailer
nose down -- all three combine to decrease stability.
HIGH WINDS will move trailers around, some more than others,
Airstreams and Awards are a little less susceptible to crosswinds but
you will do will to park the dang thing on a real windy day.
TOW RATINGS have GOT to be conservatively applied if you expect a
safe, comfortable trip. I recommend you not exceed about 3/4 of the
max tow rating for your vehicle. You are a candidate for the Darwin
Award if you try to tow a 9,000 lb Airstream with an Intrepid or a
Winstar - no matter what some greedy sales loon tells you.
WHEELBASE. The right tow vehicle has a long wheelbase. It is
absolutely absurd to expect a Blazer, Jeep Cherokee, or Suzuki Samurai
to control a big TT. Those vehicles handle badly by themselves and
have all the confidence-building directional stability of a hockey
puck once a trailer is attached.
OVERHANG. The less the better for minimizing sway because the trailer
has less leverage to steer you. That is why the Hensley & PullRite
hitches feel as stable as a fifth-wheel setup. For years Suburbans
were considered a "good" tow vehicle but they have too much rear
overhang compared to some vans.
LOOSE PARTS on the hitch platform, the hitch itself, trailer frame, or
trailer suspension can cause havoc. Not common but a Big Deal if it
happens.
"SWAY CONTROL" gadgets are little more than bandaids, with minimal
effectiveness. If everything else is right they are unnecessary. At
best they introduce some small resistance to sway, and at worst they
can cause you a crisis under slippery conditions. I do NOT recommend
them. Instead, of you are serious about towing, check all the other
stuff and get a good hitch.
========================================
This lecture brought to you free by Will Sill KD3XR, who hopes you
are not offended by anything you read, inferred, assumed, presumed
or otherwise guessed I might have possibly meant as demeaning -
unless of course you are personally a humorless nitwit who WANTS
to be insulted. In which case be my guest.
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
Larry Gryzenia
120 very happy Hensley owners in attendance. Carolyn they came from all over
the US and from Canada. Some people on this newsgroup will tell you that the
price is to high. I agree the price is high but no price is to high when my
family and my rig are concerned. The Hensley hitch works, it works very
well. If your in London, Ont. area CAN-AM RV Centre sells them and has done
quit a bit of testing with the Hensley Arrow (WWW.can-am-rv.com) or you can
purchase one right from Hensley Mfg. (WWW.hensleymfg.com).
Safe Trailering
larry
"RGMW Mom" <cmcl...@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message
news:NxRC5.109$776....@sapphire.mtt.net...
Chris Hill
<cmcl...@zdnetonebox.com> wrote:
>We've been impressed by the info on the Hensley Arrow hitch. We're driving
>a RAM 4x4 1500 SLT and pulling a Prowler 29S, that seems to want to go it's
>own way.
One question you need to ask yourself is is this truck going to be
satisfactory even with a safer hitch? We had an old suburban we towed
a 5,000 max-weight 22-foot hi-lo with. The pull-rite we bought really
helped the stability, but it didn't change the fact that the suburban
was under-powered and seemed to be running too close to the limit for
my taste. It burned a lot more oil and went through more transmission
fluid when pulling, and even with the better hitch which would not
work with a different tow vehicle, we sold it and bought a f350
pickup. With a conventional hitch, it tows much better than the
suburban ever thought about, even with the pull-rite. In summary, the
hensley may make your combination safer, but it may not make you much
happier with it.
---
Want to freeze in the dark? Vote Gore for president.
Columbia, Missouri or thereabouts
neil...@my-deja.com
The thing just doesn't sway! I came over the Burlington Skyway (near
Hamilton,ON) last week with I high wind warning posted. I didn't get
buffeted any more than I would have had I not been towing. Transport trucks
don't budge my rig.
I bought mine from Can-Am Trailers in Lambeth, ON (near London) and paid
about $4700 Can. including installation and taxes.
My rig is a Mercedes SUV towing an Award 27. Some self proclaimed experts
told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! The
Award is light weight and has a good aerodynamic shape. It tows safely and
comfortably at highway speeds with the Hensley. The test drivers at Award
and Can-Am were both very impressed.
I'm a newcomer to RVing. So far only one trip. Going to Lake Placid on the
14th. Plan to go south this winter.
Good Luck,
Neil
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Osborn
>TIRES, both on trailer & tow vehicle, as noted above should be
>correctly inflated for the actual load you're carrying. The best
>pressure is that shown on an inflation chart for your actual measured
>weight. Absolute precision is neither necessary or possible but do not
>believe bozos who tell you to over-inflate.
The load/inflation tablepressure for the load is the *minimum*, according to
the Tire and Rim Association.
The *recommended* pressure, according to page 6 of the Michelin RV Tire Guide,
is 5 PSI or more above the load/inflation table pressure for the load.
Therefore, Mr. Sill's statements above are false, potentially dangerous, and
must be considered lies.
- - - - -
David, N8DO; FMCA 147762
djosborn at aol dot com
W F Sill
>Just returned from the Hensley Family Reunion this past Sunday, with over
>120 very happy Hensley owners in attendance. Carolyn they came from all over
>the US and from Canada. Some people on this newsgroup will tell you that the
>price is to high. I agree the price is high but no price is to high when my
>family and my rig are concerned. The Hensley hitch works, it works very
>well. If your in London, Ont. area CAN-AM RV Centre sells them and has done
>quit a bit of testing with the Hensley Arrow
I know of NOBODY who claims the Hensley hitch isn't a good one, so
your endorsement is no surprise. But your reference to CAN-AM RV is
a really sour note for a couple of reasons:
1) They are notorious amnong rv dealers for recommending ludicously
overloaded, dangerous combinations such as the infamous
Intrepid/Airstream lashup. No dealer in his right mind would suggest
such a seriously overloaded setup.
2) CAN-AM RV may "endorse" Hensley, but in fact they are on record as
claiming that the ridiculous Intrepid setup didn't need one!!
Frankly, if you take advice from bozos like that crowd, you are taking
a serious chance with your very life - not to mention little trivia
like tearing up your tow vehcile by overloading.
W F Sill
>My rig is a Mercedes SUV towing an Award 27. Some self proclaimed experts
>told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! . . . . .
>I'm a newcomer to RVing. So far only one trip.
Let me see if I have this right: You spent $50k on an SUV, towed a
trailer ONCE and now you are smarter than those of us who were towing
trailers before you were born. Right?
Neil, ours is a free country, and you may do pretty much what you
please.
But with just ONE trip behind you, you've got a lot of gall bad-
mouthing the good advice you've got here. Your Mercedes Jeep is a
very NICE Jeep, but it is STILL an unsatisfactory tow vehicle that
will NEVER be as safe and comfortable as a tow vehicle with adequate
wheelbase & weight. I do sincerely hope you wise up before you wipe
out and take some innocent bystanders with you.
George Miklas
Yes, their video is very impressive. It is amazing that the Lincoln
Towncar can pull that heavy tri-axle Airstream at all. That alone is
impressive.
> We're driving a RAM 4x4 1500 SLT and pulling a Prowler 29S, that
> seems to want to go it's own way.
We used to have a Ford E-150 pulling our Trail-Lite 25'. One important
aspect of trailer safety that we learned AFTER we bought our trailer
was the imprtance of obeying the GCWR which is stated in your truck's
owner's manual. We found that even with a "super light weight"
trailer, we exceeded the GCWR by 2000#. Our experience pulling the
trailer with the ½-ton van was just generally unstable due to the van's
suspension and tires (although the tires were 6-ply rated). I believe
that the instability was accountable to the grey and black tanks being
behind the tandem. On a couple occasions I had to travel before
getting to a dump station and the extra weight with some wind caused
some sway. Also, my hot water tank was behind the tandems too. If I
travelled with 6 gallons of water in the hot water tank on a windy day,
I had a little bit of sway then too. We have replaced our ½-ton van
with a 1-ton van and even when there is 6 gallons in the hot water
tank, and 20 gallons in each of the 2 holding tanks, the trailer does
not control the 1-ton van as it controlled the ½-ton van.
> We travel on weekends from May to October, and for 3 weeks in the
summer.
> It's a substantial investment, likely close to $5,000 in Canada.
It certainly is substantial.
> 1. Is it worth it?
Only you know that. If you wreck without it, I am sure people will
tell you "I told you so". But that is alot of money for sure when if
you are a good and consciensious driver, you may never have a wreck.
> 2. Are they available in Canada?
You can probably drive to Detroit (Davidson MI) and buy one directly
from the plant.
> 3. Do you have a similar truck & trailer config?
Our truck was a ½-ton van, and our trailer is 25'
> 4. How much trailering do you do?
Since March 2000, we trailered approximately 6000 miles. Our work
schedule allows us to camp 2-4 night weekends every month, weather
permitting. We have already winterized our trailer due to the
scheduled birthday of our son (he might want an early birthday party so
we can't go camping too far in the 9th month you know). Next year, we
will begin camping in April, and continue through October or November.
> I'm wondering if the difference in control is worth the very steep
price, as
> we are not retired and only travel on weekends and vacation.
Carolyn, the fact is that this unit is probably necessary on any rig
where the tow vehicle is unstable pulling a trailer. Obeying the
manufacturer's GCWR is also part of keeping your rig stable. So to
gain stability in your rig, you have a choice to make--new hitch or new
tow vehicle. To obey the manufacturer's GCWR, there is only one thing
to do--new tow vehicle. I would venture to say that if you were to get
a 1-ton truck, you won't need a special hitch. After we traded our ½-
ton van onto a 1-ton van, we have not experienced any swaying and are
still using a standard Reese 750# WD hitch. The fact of that matter is
that stability begins with the tow vehicles suspension--tires, axle,
and springs. Frankly, you would be better served to trade the 1500
onto a 3500. When I traded vans, I lost $750 in the trade. Had I
bought the special hitch instead, I would have spent $2600 and still
had a ½-ton van with a low GCWR.
Again, there are some circumstances where people choose not to buy a
proper tow vehicle and insist that they need to use their mini vans or
SUVs to tow a travel trailer. Those people probably most certainly
need a special hitch to keep the trailer from steering the tow
vehicle. But remember, there is no comprimise for safety. Buying this
special hitch, does not make the GCWR any higher, and does not change
any of the major suspension components (bearings, tires, springs,
brakes, axle) on your tow vehicle.
Good luck!
George
--
George and Jodi Miklas, gospel harmonica players and singers
Ford E-350 Clubwagon Chateau ~ Trail-Lite 7253
http://www.pathway.net/harmonicat/camping.htm
Tired of Usenet bickering? 1600+ helpful RVers at http://iRV2.com
JanOrme99
>My rig is a Mercedes SUV towing an Award 27. Some self proclaimed experts
>told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! The
>Award is light weight and has a good aerodynamic shape. It tows safely and
>comfortably at highway speeds with the Hensley. The test drivers at Award
>and Can-Am were both very impressed.
>
>I'm a newcomer to RVing. So far only one trip. Going to Lake Placid on the
>14th. Plan to go south this winter.
>
>Good Luck,
Hi Neil,
I truly hope you do have "good luck" on that trip Neil but please go easy. And
please post when and where you will travel. Not trying to be a smart ass here
but would prefer to avoid your travel. When I see this type of rig (that I
consider unsafe) I back off and avoid being close to it.
I agree 100% with techinical part of Will's post to you. Your lash up can be a
recipe for disaster given the type on the road situation we would all hope to
not happen to anyone. The tail (your trailer) has the potential to wag the dog
(your overpriced Merc). Yeah the combination is very firmly lashed together!
However, if the dog (that trailer) decides to hit the ditch in the right
situation, the whole thing will be on it's roof in the ditch or over a cliff
with you and your family in it.
Hace you weighed the SUV, the trailer and the whole combination? Do you know
the factory GVWR and GCWR? You are without a doubt way out of the factory spec.
If you kill your family and/or others on the road there will be a very complete
gathering of the facts. Your inrurance company will not stand behind you or
your heirs if you are out of spec. That leaves one huge finger pointing right
at you Neil.
Ask Can-Am and Hensley if they will stand with you or your heirs in court in
that circumstance.
They make a great hitch. We all know that. But we also know that we are
supposed to use good common principles of on the road safety. Throwing piles of
money to get the neato combination of your dreams does not make it safe and
practical.
Just my opinion, other mileage can vary if they like.
Good luck out there.
Jan Eric Orme
Hammock in the Todd Valley Pines
Tahoe National Forest
Foresthill, Ca
Mark Morissette
>told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! The
I know before I even click on it that the next response is going to be
Will jumping all over you like a fat kid on a cookie, and this time,
I'll stand behind him..
Any Mercedes SUV that I've ever seen what a tiny little wheelbase
vehicle that I wouldn't think of towing much more then a snowmobile
trailer with, nevermind a 27' RV...
Hensley or not, you're going to end up in the ditch very soon.. And
after investigating the situation a little more, I can now 100%
confirm that the people at Can-Am are complete and total idiots.
Posting that "They are wrong!" when referring to people who will claim
your SUV is a bad (terrible!) choice to tow with is taking an awful
large leap of faith for someone with only one freaking RV trip under
your belt!
---
Mark, Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
pepp...@spamcop.net
W F Sill
commentary on the topic of the Hensley hitch, and with his sig line
mentioned:
>Tired of Usenet bickering? 1600+ helpful RVers at http://iRV2.com
Being a curious sort, I pulled up the reference, and what d'ya suppose
I found immediately after the first item (a photo of someone's
bulgemobile & toad)? An ad for the infamous "Air Ride Hitch" and this
deathless prose:
=========quote=========
"When I saw the first Air Ride Hitch I knew I had to be heavily
involved in the product. Manufacturing has always been my strong suit
and this product was a natural. It is much safer than any other hitch
on the road and there is no way I would ever pull my own horses or
ride with my family without this hitch." Said Craig Kaplenski,
President of Air Ride Hitch, Inc.
The Air Ride Hitch not only gives a better ride; it is much safer than
any other product of its kind on the market today. Even in extreme
situations, the driver is able to stay in control significantly better
than with a locked-down hitch. This is due to the trailer not pushing
the tow-vehicle off the ground in breaking situations, not allowing
the driver to brake or steer the vehicle and by not allowing the
bounce and jerk of the trailer to effect the braking or steering of
the tow-vehicle.
=========end quote==========
Folks, this is unscientific, untruthful bafflegab unworthy of any
forum. Lies & half-truths don't cut it here, where "usenet
bickering" quickly exposed Craig Kaplenski as a liar and a con man.
Too bad the folks at the subject web site are so careful to screen out
negative stuff!!
Hugh Darling
that's what Neil has) as a competent tow vehicle. It weighs 4550 lbs,
has a fully independent sophisticated suspension system, a 4.3L V8
engine, a real short axle to hitch point, is rated to tow 5,000 lbs has
ABS and is an AWD vehicle. It's more like what I envision as the
beginning of an ideal tow vehicle of the future. Before you guys start
kicking me, think it through. The manufacturer built the space frame
strong enough to allow a decent trailer weight, put an extremely stable
suspension system on it (far more stable than leaf springs and solid
axles) and put a 5 speed automatic computer controlled transmission in
it. That sounds more like a stable towing platform to me. The Award 27'
trailer sounds like a good combination for this SUV.
To be perfectly frank, I'd rather be on the road along side this setup
than a Ford Powersmoke towing a 36' 12,000 lb 5th wheel. The 5th is a
heck of a lot heavier than the tow vehicle and has the same number of
wheels on the ground. Braking force is probably in the Mercedes/Award
favor as the Mercedes has 4 wheel disk brakes. As far as emergency moves
are concerned, I'd put my money on the Mercedes/ Award/Hensley combo.
We're not discussing the stupid Intrepid/Airstream combo and shouldn't
let that color this discussion.
Hugh
JanOrme99 wrote:
>
> Neil writes in part:
>
> >My rig is a Mercedes SUV towing an Award 27. Some self proclaimed experts
> >told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! The
W F Sill
(unedited outa fairness):
>Don't know if I'd be as strong as you and Will knocking the ML430 (if
>that's what Neil has) as a competent tow vehicle. It weighs 4550 lbs,
>has a fully independent sophisticated suspension system, a 4.3L V8
>engine, a real short axle to hitch point, is rated to tow 5,000 lbs has
>ABS and is an AWD vehicle. It's more like what I envision as the
>beginning of an ideal tow vehicle of the future. Before you guys start
>kicking me, think it through. The manufacturer built the space frame
>strong enough to allow a decent trailer weight, put an extremely stable
>suspension system on it (far more stable than leaf springs and solid
>axles) and put a 5 speed automatic computer controlled transmission in
>it. That sounds more like a stable towing platform to me. The Award 27'
>trailer sounds like a good combination for this SUV.
>
>To be perfectly frank, I'd rather be on the road along side this setup
>than a Ford Powersmoke towing a 36' 12,000 lb 5th wheel. The 5th is a
>heck of a lot heavier than the tow vehicle and has the same number of
>wheels on the ground. Braking force is probably in the Mercedes/Award
>favor as the Mercedes has 4 wheel disk brakes. As far as emergency moves
>are concerned, I'd put my money on the Mercedes/ Award/Hensley combo.
>We're not discussing the stupid Intrepid/Airstream combo and shouldn't
>let that color this discussion.
A reasonable and well thought-out response, Hugh, but IMO still not
convincing. Granted the Benz suspension and brakes are undoubtedly
superior to the Cherokees of my experience. (Faint praise, that!)
But the overhang is irrelevant with the Hensley, and power is not
relevant to handling/control issues. There is no way on earth that a
short wheelbase rig - no matter how heavy the Mercedes star - is going
to handle as well as a comparable rig with a long wheelbase. Towing
or not.
Now before this becomes a war of words, I hope y'all understand we are
talking RELATIVE safety/competence issues. I am NOT saying (nor AFAIK
is Mark or Jan) that this is necessarily a death trap, unsafe at any
speed, etc. Good heavens, even the notorious Kirk Thomson of Can-Am
has presumably survived long trips with his incredible Intrepid/
Airstream combo --- and we have ALL seen rigs on the road that appear
to be ready for the ditch any moment. The Hensley video even shows
some nitwit demonstrating quick maneuvers (on dead flat pavement, of
course) with an S-10 Blazer and a 9,600# tri-axle Airstream! Egad!
Yet few crash.
A trip behind the wheel of a Jeep towing a TT (even if the Jeep is
called a Caddy or Lincoln or M-B) is NOT going to be as pleasant or
safe as the same trip with a long-wheelbase tow vehicle properly set
up for towing. It's MORE dangerous & uncomfortable, but it is not
necessarily fatal!
I advise against such combinations because my long experience has
shown beyond a shadow of doubt that the short rigs don't do the job
well. I owned a plastic Pontiac whose combination of short w/b, wide
track, and low polar moment of inertia (mid engine) made it
treacherous to hit a puddle! I think MOST people (other than Oz and
a few specialists in nastygrams who come here to bitch) read these
NG's to get a feel for what's best - safe, comfortable, reliable, and
proven. Telling them a Jeep is a good tow vehicle is wrong, IMO.
Hugh Darling
W F Sill wrote:
>
> Not long ago, Hugh Darling <hug...@earthlink.net> wrote the following
snipped
> >
> >To be perfectly frank, I'd rather be on the road along side this setup
> >than a Ford Powersmoke towing a 36' 12,000 lb 5th wheel. The 5th is a
> >heck of a lot heavier than the tow vehicle and has the same number of
> >wheels on the ground. Braking force is probably in the Mercedes/Award
> >favor as the Mercedes has 4 wheel disk brakes. As far as emergency moves
> >are concerned, I'd put my money on the Mercedes/ Award/Hensley combo.
> >We're not discussing the stupid Intrepid/Airstream combo and shouldn't
> >let that color this discussion.
>
> A reasonable and well thought-out response, Hugh, but IMO still not
> convincing. Granted the Benz suspension and brakes are undoubtedly
> superior to the Cherokees of my experience. (Faint praise, that!)
> But the overhang is irrelevant with the Hensley, and power is not
> relevant to handling/control issues. There is no way on earth that a
> short wheelbase rig - no matter how heavy the Mercedes star - is going
> to handle as well as a comparable rig with a long wheelbase. Towing
> or not.
>
snipped
>
> A trip behind the wheel of a Jeep towing a TT (even if the Jeep is
> called a Caddy or Lincoln or M-B) is NOT going to be as pleasant or
> safe as the same trip with a long-wheelbase tow vehicle properly set
> up for towing. It's MORE dangerous & uncomfortable, but it is not
> necessarily fatal!
>
> I advise against such combinations because my long experience has
> shown beyond a shadow of doubt that the short rigs don't do the job
> well. I owned a plastic Pontiac whose combination of short w/b, wide
> track, and low polar moment of inertia (mid engine) made it
> treacherous to hit a puddle! I think MOST people (other than Oz and
> a few specialists in nastygrams who come here to bitch) read these
> NG's to get a feel for what's best - safe, comfortable, reliable, and
> proven. Telling them a Jeep is a good tow vehicle is wrong, IMO.
>
> Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
> Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
> and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
Nice response Will. I think we need to keep something in mind though.
The comparison of wheelbase lengths get clouded by the difference in the
two suspension systems. The Mercedes front and rear suspensions are
pegged laterally so as to prevent side movement of the suspension. The
common pickup or SUV used for towing has a leaf spring rear suspension
and commonly does not even have an anti roll bar. The problem of
stability is relative to the amount of "give" each way the rear
suspension can move with the "swing" point being the front suspension
(held by independent suspension). If we were to consider this in the
comparison, we would probably find the 111" wb of the Mercedes is
comparable to a longer wb of a pickup. Since we can't drive the combo
<g>, guess it's all conjecture on my part. Adding the Hensley cuts even
more sideways (at the rear) movement so should sweeten the handling pot.
Hugh
Chris
Chris
"David Osborn" <djos...@aol.commnet.net> wrote in message
news:20001005120407...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> wi...@epix.net writes (in part):
>
> >TIRES, both on trailer & tow vehicle, as noted above should be
> >correctly inflated for the actual load you're carrying. The best
> >pressure is that shown on an inflation chart for your actual measured
> >weight. Absolute precision is neither necessary or possible but do not
> >believe bozos who tell you to over-inflate.
>
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
<wi...@epix.net> wrote:
> Not long ago, George Miklas <george...@hotmail.com> wrote a useful
> commentary on the topic of the Hensley hitch, and with his sig line
> mentioned:
>
> >Tired of Usenet bickering? 1600+ helpful RVers at http://iRV2.com
>
> Being a curious sort, I pulled up the reference, and what d'ya suppose
> I found immediately after the first item (a photo of someone's
> bulgemobile & toad)? An ad for the infamous "Air Ride Hitch" and this
> deathless prose:
>
> =========quote=========
Em... you know just this week I was wondering about the status of the
lawsuit, the one the holders of the patent for that hitch filled against
Craig. I know there was a web site that was tracking the suit, but I
couldn't find it in my book-marks
--
Ralph Lindberg personal email n7...@amsat.org
RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv
If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is
Jim and Joy
"David Osborn" <djos...@aol.commnet.net> wrote in message
news:20001005120407...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> wi...@epix.net writes (in part):
>
> >TIRES, both on trailer & tow vehicle, as noted above should be
> >correctly inflated for the actual load you're carrying. The best
> >pressure is that shown on an inflation chart for your actual measured
> >weight. Absolute precision is neither necessary or possible but do not
> >believe bozos who tell you to over-inflate.
>
Alan Sanderson
over..??
> Get a life...
>
> "David Osborn" <djos...@aol.commnet.net> wrote BLAH BLAH BLAH
Alan Sanderson
Chris <bad442@musc a net.com> wrote in message
news:stq0ej8...@corp.supernews.com...
> Does it look like we even remotely care? Give it up!
Why are YOU reprinting his entire message then ????????
> "David Osborn" <djos...@aol.commnet.net> BLAH BLAH BLAH
W F Sill
>Nice response Will. I think we need to keep something in mind though.
>The comparison of wheelbase lengths get clouded by the difference in the
>two suspension systems.
It was not my intention to gloss over the differences between the
Benz' fully-independent suspension and the primitive 'wagon axle' Jeep
suspension. Certainly that makes a difference.
What it does not address is the fact that a small lateral displacement
on the rear wheels of ANY short vehicle creates a large angle-of-
attack change. It is not my intent to condemn all short vehicles as
"totally useless as tow vehicles" as someone recently charged - but to
point out that when all else is equal, longer is better from a
stability POV. It might be more a comfort issue that a safety topic
- but it is clearly a question of risk too.
It would take a lot of expense to quantify the differences (especially
since failures are VERY costly) but I am confident that a single
unexpected pothole under the wrong circumstances could put that fancy
SUV/Award combo - 4-wheel independent suspension & all - into the
puckerbrush faster than a Baptist can say "O shucks".
DsrtTravlr
>.
Well, you might have money, but ya got oatmeal fer brains.
You coulda done better with a '78 3/4 ton Chevy Camper Special. One in good
shape goes for about $3500 right now. You and your family would be safer, and
lots of innocent bystanders won't be running for cover when that Mercedes
emblem is coming at them pushed by 27 feet of travel trailer. Don't believe
me? Take your little thingus there, hook it to your trailer, and try to stop
it in a panic stop at 35 mph. Now clean your shorts, and imagine how that
would have been at freeway speed. Take it on a curvy DOWNHILL road that runs a
few miles. Bet you a day's pay you never use it as a tow vehicle again.
Take that flimsy thing you are crowing about on a trip. A real trip, not just
down to the park, like your trip. Like 5000 miles. Make 2500 miles of it on
two lane road. At least 100 miles on dirt road. Then report back when you
know what you are talking about, and that oatmeal in your head has had a chance
to grow a synapse or two.
Mercedes SUV as a tow vehicle? This is a troll, right?
Steve
Illegitimi non carborundum.
rv...@home.com
>>>My rig is a Mercedes SUV towing an Award 27. Some self proclaimed experts
>>>told me that my SUV was not a suitable tow vehicle. They're wrong! . . . .
<big snip>
>Mercedes SUV as a tow vehicle? This is a troll, right?
>Steve
>Illegitimi non carborundum.
Here in the land of the AAV, Tuscaloosa, AL, where the Mercedes
M-class is built, it is considered the 'messiah of motion'.
I have seen all manner of things hitched to them, and always
disapproved, I was wrong. Several friends use them as tow
vehicles, one in particular, to pull a sailboat, (fixed keel).
I voiced concerns over this, but my concerns have been
put to rest by these individuals.
It seems that the ?wheel base to hitch point ratio? is short,
and practically no measurable over-hang from rear wheels
to bumper. To get closer to the rear axle, you would have to move to a
5er.
This set up is not for me, but, the people that use the M-class
to tow, testify that it is ideal. An engineer friend, tried to use
english to explain this to me, but all I absorbed is that the
wheel base is almost as long as the vehicle. As he explained,
and drew me some simple pictures, I began to see the logic.
Of course, never exceed any vehicles tow limits, (75%
for most of us).
I was guilty of sentencing myself to eternal ignorance,
i.e., contempt prior to investigation. Though I am not
a convert, I do concede that the M-class may be an
acceptable tow vehicle for the appropriate application.
Now flame away!
gym...@iwon.com
'87 Kit RoadRanger 208 5th Wheel
aka - "The Dog House"
rv...@home.com
Snip
>What it does not address is the fact that a small lateral displacement
>on the rear wheels of ANY short vehicle creates a large angle-of-
>attack change. It is not my intent to condemn all short vehicles as
>"totally useless as tow vehicles" as someone recently charged - but to
>point out that when all else is equal, longer is better from a
>stability POV. It might be more a comfort issue that a safety topic
>- but it is clearly a question of risk too.
Snip
Please * investigate*, the AAV is NOT a short wheelbase
vehicle (relative). Your point stated above, would suggest that the
M-Class
would make a ?good? tow vehicle.
What is an acceptable wheel base for a tow vehicle?
How much/little over hang is allowed?
I felt as you did until I investigated and found I was wrong.
It is my pledge to never be so closed minded as to refuse
to admit that I am not entirely right all the time.
Things change, and SUV's do too.
gym...@iwon.com
A fool grows without rain. - The Talmud
W F Sill
>Please * investigate*, the AAV is NOT a short wheelbase
>vehicle (relative). Your point stated above, would suggest that the
>M-Class
>would make a ?good? tow vehicle.
>What is an acceptable wheel base for a tow vehicle?
>How much/little over hang is allowed?
>I felt as you did until I investigated and found I was wrong.
>It is my pledge to never be so closed minded as to refuse
>to admit that I am not entirely right all the time.
>Things change, and SUV's do too.
I investigated. The Mercedes jeep has a 111" wheelbase.
A Mitsubishi Montero jeep has a 107.3" wheelbase.
My GMC 3500 van has a 155" wheelbase.
Frankly, I get a bit of a rash with nitwits who demand to know if
85psi is SAFE and 84psi is DANGEROUS. Don't be an ass.
There are DEGREES of suitability for towing. The fancy Benz-wagen is
undoubtedly "better" than our old (long gone) Jeep Cherokee Limited.
It is better than an S-10 Blazer and better than a Geo Tracker. For
towing, it is NOT better than or even equal to longer wheelbase
vehicles.
If you are convinced you want to spend the bux, go for it - but do not
expect me to believe that the laws of physics have been repealed by
the addition of the three-pointed star.
BTW, you can have the AMG hot rod version for a mere $66k, + TTT -
tax, title & tags, good for 141 mph until you hook on the trailer.
DsrtTravlr
is lost in your mutual hate.
Steve
Illegitimi non carborundum.
Z71Tahoe
learned that since Mr. Sill is a liar, the things he says don't have any
bearing. I now can safely pull my 35' Wanderer 5th wheel with my 96 Nissan
Frontier, as long as I put at least 85 psi in each of my tires. To counter
the rear end sag when I'm hooked up, I just tie a few cinder blocks to my
front bumper to level out my rig. Of course, I have to put about 100 psi in
my front tires so they can handle the load, but I get really great gas
mileage...like 17+ on the highway at 80 mph! Thanks guys.....
Scott
"Chris" <bad442@musc a net.com> wrote in message
news:stq0ej8...@corp.supernews.com...
> Does it look like we even remotely care? Give it up!
>
> Chris
>
Hugh Darling
a little thingy. It weighs more than the 27' Award trailer and it has 4
wheel disk brakes. Maybe it is a questionable tow setup but Mercedes
labels it to tow 5,000 lbs. I dare say it is not a "flimsy thing" but
probably has more structural strength than that '78 chevy camper
special. I owned a '78 Chevy heavy half and it wasn't exactly a "strong"
tow platform. I will stand by my former statement, that I would rather
have this setup (with the Hensley hitch) next to me than an F350
Powersmoke towing a 12,000 lb 5th wheel. I would be willing to bet the
ML430/Award/ Hensley combo could 1) out accelerate the Powersmoke. 2)
out maneuver the Powersmoke. 3) out stop the Powersmoke. Bet you a
months pension, if he takes it on a curvy downgrade that runs a few
miles, he will sing it's praises as a tow vehicle. I could be wrong
(wouldn't be the first time) but some how I don't think I am. I'm not
trying to be a smart ass either, just trying to be fair. His SUV
(provided it is the ML430) weighs more than my '96 Sierra extra cab
short bed pickup and he is towing less weight. He has a heck of a lot
more power available and has a 5 speed automatic to my 4 speed auto. The
only thing I got that's more than his is wheelbase. I have a 143" wb to
his 111" wb. I still don't know if his suspension system will compensate
for the short wb but I'm sure it would help.
Hugh
Rich
On 05 Oct 2000 16:04:07 GMT, djos...@aol.commnet.net (David Osborn)
wrote:
Steph and Dud B.
You have identified the primary weakness of the Hensley. Once the angle
between the tow vehicle and TT passes a certain point (I forget the number
of degrees) the hitch turns into a standard pivot and loses all its sway
control features. (This is how the Hensley can achieve such tight turns
when backing into a campsite.) While this angle is not usually achieved in
normal driving it can be reached on a winding road, and if you are going
downhill the TT will try to push the back of the tow vehicle laterally. One
Hensley owner noted this and advised always staying 5 MPH below the posted
speed limit on those winding downhills. I don't think the PullRite would
have this limitation since it does actually pivot at the rear axle instead
of using geometry to achieve a virtual rear-axle pivot like the Hensley.
--
Dudley
http://members.aol.com/stephndudb/rv.html
Robert Carr <rac...@home.com> wrote in message
news:6oosts4sv12fqimir...@4ax.com...
> Will
>
> I had saved an old post from Barry Sherman and thought that it applied
> to what you are saying. I assume Barry would not object to my quoting
> of his post. See the quote below, consisting of three paragraphs.
>
> "Even as a confirmed Hensley hitch user I must agree with Will. I've
> been appalled at the way that the Hensley people promote using their
> hitch to tow large trailers with small tow vehicles. I used the
> Hensley to tow our 24 foot TT with a Ford Bronco and it definitely
> eliminated trailer sway. But I was still restricted to very slow
> speeds on mountain roads because control was marginal there. The
> Hensley eliminated trailer sway but did little, if anything, to
> prevent the large lever arm of the trailer from resisting steering
> input from the short lever arm of the Bronco's wheelbase. At times the
> lack of steering control on twisty mountain roads was downright
> scarey.
>
> On the other hand, we just completed a 3000 mile trip with our new tow
> vehicle - Dodge 2500, short cab, long bed 4x4 - and it was a dream. We
> towed from San Jose CA through the southern route into the Grand
> Tetons and Yellowstone, out to the Oregon coast and home again. Lots
> of twisty roads. No control troubles at all. I was able to travel the
> twisty roads at significantly higher speeds with significantly better
> control at the same time, as compared to using the Bronco.
>
> I think that the Hensley is a great hitch for eliminating trailer sway
> and will continue to use it even with the larger tow vehicle. But for
> overall control of the trailer I'm more convinced than ever that there
> is simply no substitute for tow vehicle length."
>
> Bob
Robert Carr
Bob
Robert Carr
Good point. I was going to mention that, because I faintly remember
discussing that with Barry Sherman at the time of his post. Then I
forgot to include it. I believe the angle is approximately 12 deg. My
little half-scale model of the hitch indicates that 12 deg is about
the right angle. As far as being a primary weakness of the Hensley, I
have sort of decided that it is a trade-off situation. As we both
know, one of the big advantages to the Hensley is tow vehicle-to-tow
vehicle portability, unlike the Pullrite. Furthermore, the Pullrite
isn't even available for many vehicles. The Hensley will work on
virtually any vehicle that has a 2 in receiver. However, to obtain
that portability and flexibility a linkage system is employed to
create a effective or virtual pivot point(rather than a physical pivot
point) some distance forward of the actual hitch assembly. Works like
a charm until the angle between the tow vehicle and trailer becomes
too large. I tend to believe that a wider angle of sway control could
be established, but the hitch assembly would become so large and
probably so heavy, that it would be impractical to use.
Bob
W F Sill
post from Barry Sherman (who has not been heard from lately), in which
he said in part
>"Even as a confirmed Hensley hitch user I must agree with Will. I've
>been appalled at the way that the Hensley people promote using their
>hitch to tow large trailers with small tow vehicles. I used the
>Hensley to tow our 24 foot TT with a Ford Bronco and it definitely
>eliminated trailer sway. But I was still restricted to very slow
>speeds on mountain roads because control was marginal there. The
>Hensley eliminated trailer sway but did little, if anything, to
>prevent the large lever arm of the trailer from resisting steering
>input from the short lever arm of the Bronco's wheelbase. . . .
Thanx for digging that up, Bob. I had indeed thought about Barry's
report recently when this issue came up, and agree it's a very useful
perspective.
Some will argue, no doubt, that the M-B 'jeep' (SUV) is "better" than
the old Bronco. Only an idiot would argue with that, but the physics
of the situation remain. A little gravel on the unexpected sharp
turn can let the rear tires skate sideways a bit - regardless of
superior suspension - and you suddenly have both hands full of fine
leather-covered steering wheel.
There is such a thing as a 'slip angle' under cornering forces - and
it is present regardless of vehicle type or wheelbase - but the
long-wheelbase vehicle is MUCH easier to control.
Will KD3XR
Want the gummit to give you something you want?
You must first give them everything they want.
DsrtTravlr
>Can-Am Trailers in Lambeth, ON sells and installs Hensley Arrows. I
>bought mine there (approx.
>$4700 Can. installed.
>No sway under any conditions. I crossed the Burlington Skywaylast week
>with the overhead signs lit up, saying "HIGH WINDS ON SKYWAY". No
>problem.
>My rig is an Award 27 towed by Mercedes SUV.
>Good luck!
>Neil
>
>
Neil:
Would you please share with us your traveling expertise, and describe the one
trip you made which now qualifies you as a dispenser of advice?
You said, "No sway under any conditions."
Just how long was that trip? We have some in here who are on a permanent trip.
We have others who consider anything less than a year as an overnighter, and
those who consider anything less than 5000 miles as a short trip.
Please share with us, O Fount of Information and Experience. And if you ever
make a second trip over 50 miles (65kilometers), let us know how your little
thingus tows. If you ever get it on a hill, on a curve, or take it on anything
but flat road, let us know.
Steve
Holy sheepshit, Andy ! ! $4700 for a hitch ! ! We got to nip this thing in
the bud. Yep, some ole budnipping.
Illegitimi non carborundum.
W F Sill
> $4700 for a hitch ! ! We got to nip this thing in
>the bud. Yep, some ole budnipping.
Quite the contrary, Steve... the Hensley organization has proved a
LONG time ago that they have no conscience. They have been selling
them in the US for around $2500, which IMO is at least double what
they SHOULD cost. Given the current exchange rate (around $1.40 last
I knew) that would be about $3500cdn. Chalk up the extra to greed
and arrogance. Greed on the part of Can-Am RV, arrogance on the part
of the buyer who is convinced his Mercedes jeep is invincible with the
right hitch.
As I have written many times, the Hensley "Arrow" is an excellent
hitch that greatly increases the stability of any TT combination. I
can only hope that readers of this NG will not be hoodwinked into
buying one for an unsuitable tow vehicle by a marketing strategy that
relies heavily on deception. The hitch will NOT "eliminate" the sway
problem, will NOT magically protect against stupid driving practices,
and will NOT make it safe to disregard tow ratings. Yet Hensley
marketers repeatedly make these claims, even tho the hitch is so good
it could be sold effectively by honest means.
George Miklas
> the old Bronco. Only an idiot would argue with that, but the physics
> of the situation remain. A little gravel on the unexpected sharp
> turn can let the rear tires skate sideways a bit - regardless of
> superior suspension - and you suddenly have both hands full of fine
> leather-covered steering wheel.
Will, (not a flame against you, but questioning the MB owner) you mean
that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
ride?
Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
George
--
George and Jodi Miklas, gospel harmonica players and singers
Ford E-350 Clubwagon Chateau ~ Trail-Lite 7253
http://www.pathway.net/harmonicat/camping.htm
Tired of Usenet bickering? 1600+ helpful RVers at http://iRV2.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Don
>Neil wrote:
>
>>Can-Am Trailers in Lambeth, ON sells and installs Hensley Arrows. I
>>bought mine there (approx.
>>$4700 Can. installed.
>>No sway under any conditions. I crossed the Burlington Skywaylast week
>>with the overhead signs lit up, saying "HIGH WINDS ON SKYWAY". No
>>problem.
>>My rig is an Award 27 towed by Mercedes SUV.
>>Good luck!
>>Neil
>>
>>
>
>Neil:
>
>Would you please share with us your traveling expertise, and describe the one
>trip you made which now qualifies you as a dispenser of advice?
Now I think the guy is a newby and has been raked over the coals
enough by this group.
>Please share with us, O Fount of Information and Experience.
Gee, Steve...it's getting worse. <gr>
>Holy sheepshit, Andy ! ! $4700 for a hitch ! !
He was speaking in CANADIAN dollars, not American.
D*
Big Al's Big Speech: http://www.boortz.com/alsspeech.htm
Spend a couple of minutes to take these very short tests:
The world's smallest political quiz, http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
Select a presidential candidate, http://www.speakout.com/SelectSmart/
Select a political party, http://www.3pc.net/matchmaker/quiz.html
W F Sill
> . . . . . you mean
>that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
>that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
>makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
>ride?
>
>Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
This is a joke, right?
IMO the "twin I-beam" has to be among the most lame-brain front
suspension ideas since tiller steering! It lacks the precise
geometry control of the beam axle, and weighs more, rides as hard, has
more wear points, is harder to align, and produces a LOT of alignment
complaints. Ford has had a lot of "Better Ideas" but that wasn't one
of them!
Hugh Darling
beam concept, where the front wheels are tied to the frame on opposite
sides. Now use that same concept on the rear setup. Tie the rear wheels
to the opposite sides of the frame. Now you have the picture of the
independent front and rear suspension. The only side to side motion
allowed will be the give in the tires. I'm not going to be so foolish as
to say the Mercedes ML430 is the perfect tow vehicle, after all it
wasn't designed primarily to be one, but it sure is a better platform
than say a short bed standard cab 1/2 ton.
Hugh
George Miklas wrote:
>
> In article <n04tts4e995d64och...@4ax.com>,
> W F Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote:
> > Some will argue, no doubt, that the M-B 'jeep' (SUV) is "better" than
> > the old Bronco. Only an idiot would argue with that, but the physics
> > of the situation remain. A little gravel on the unexpected sharp
> > turn can let the rear tires skate sideways a bit - regardless of
> > superior suspension - and you suddenly have both hands full of fine
> > leather-covered steering wheel.
>
> Will, (not a flame against you, but questioning the MB owner) you mean
> that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
> that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
> makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
> ride?
>
> Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
>
bill horne
> >that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
> >that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
> >makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
> >ride?
> >
> >Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
>
>
> IMO the "twin I-beam" has to be among the most lame-brain front
> suspension ideas since tiller steering! It lacks the precise
> geometry control of the beam axle, and weighs more, rides as hard, has
> more wear points, is harder to align, and produces a LOT of alignment
> complaints. Ford has had a lot of "Better Ideas" but that wasn't one
> of them!
>
> Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
> and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
Yeah, but it Sounds so cool - I-beams are bygod strong, right? And
there's not just one, but TWO of them. wow, huh?
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
DsrtTravlr
attention, you would know that all you need to turn a Volkswagen Bug into a tow
vehicle for a 35' TT is a Hensley Hitch.
I am sure it would work for the VW, because I have heard of people here raving
about their small vehicles being able to tow large trailers.
Sheesh.
Steve ;-)
>In article <n04tts4e995d64och...@4ax.com>,
> W F Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote:
>> Some will argue, no doubt, that the M-B 'jeep' (SUV) is "better" than
>> the old Bronco. Only an idiot would argue with that, but the physics
>> of the situation remain. A little gravel on the unexpected sharp
>> turn can let the rear tires skate sideways a bit - regardless of
>> superior suspension - and you suddenly have both hands full of fine
>> leather-covered steering wheel.
>
>Will, (not a flame against you, but questioning the MB owner) you mean
>that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
>that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
>makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
>ride?
>
>Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
>
>George
>--
>George and Jodi Miklas, gospel harmonica players and singers
>Ford E-350 Clubwagon Chateau ~ Trail-Lite 7253
>http://www.pathway.net/harmonicat/camping.htm
>
>Tired of Usenet bickering? 1600+ helpful RVers at http://iRV2.com
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Illegitimi non carborundum.
George Miklas
dsrtt...@aol.com (DsrtTravlr) wrote:
> Good grief! Haven't you been paying attention at all? If you HAD
been paying
> attention, you would know that all you need to turn a Volkswagen Bug
into a tow
> vehicle for a 35' TT is a Hensley Hitch.
> I am sure it would work for the VW, because I have heard of people
here raving
> about their small vehicles being able to tow large trailers.
> Sheesh.
> Steve ;-)
Steve, That is good! I don't know what color Bug would look best with
the tri-axle Airstream and the orange boat anchor.
Pete Dumbleton
is, the less effect a sideways motion on the ball will have on the front
axle (which also means that a Henseley or PullRite wouldn't improve the
setup much, if at all; anymore than putting a Henseley or PU in the bed of
a pickup could improve a 5W; presuming you could even get such a kludge to
work). And if the trailer being towed is balanced right, and doesn't
weigh much it might work, just as pulling an enclosed glider trailer with
a VW beetle might work, but I'd sure want to see the numbers before I'd
even say maybe.
I've been in gusts with a Dodge D150, pulling my 13' Scamp, and I could
feel it. Nowhere near close to an edge (been there once with a light car
and heavy boat, and I sure don't wanna be there ever again!), but I could
feel the effect. Granted a shorter "rear lever", but with a shorter WB
and more than twice the wind area, I suspect I'd be more than just feeling
it...
dentin...@hotmail.com
On 2000-10-07 wi...@epix.net said:
wi>Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
wi>Not long ago, George Miklas <george...@hotmail.com> wrote:
wi>> . . . . . you mean
wi>>that the MB's suspension is better than Twin-I-Beam? What does
wi>>that "superior suspension" do when you hook a trailer on it? What
wi>>makes it a "superior suspension"... durability (ruggedness) or soft
wi>>ride?
wi>>Really though, I thought that nothing was better than Twin-I-Beam!
wi>This is a joke, right?
On you perhaps?
wi>IMO the "twin I-beam" has to be among the most lame-brain front
wi>suspension ideas since tiller steering! It lacks the precise
wi>geometry control of the beam axle, and weighs more, rides as hard,
wi>has more wear points, is harder to align, and produces a LOT of
wi>alignment complaints. Ford has had a lot of "Better Ideas" but
wi>that wasn't one of them!
So, oh great learned smart-ass, perhaps Ford engineers would change the
design if you asked them to do so? I'm sure they (Ford engineers) would
cringe if they knew you disapproved.
wi>Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
wi>Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
wi>and annoy morons. Whichever shoe fits, wear it.
more humor?
Lon VanOstran
> So, oh great learned smart-ass, perhaps Ford engineers would change the
> design if you asked them to do so? I'm sure they (Ford engineers) would
> cringe if they knew you disapproved.
My first (and last) Ford van had "twin I beam" front suspension. I
replace the shocks 8 times in 94,000 miles, replaced the King Pins (and
every other front joint) at 60,000 miles, and destroyed 5 sets of tires
because the camber changed every time I changed the load. Thankfully I
totaled the piece of crap at 94,000 miles when I was rear ended in the
fog.
With the Astro vans I change out the factory idler arms with Moog and
the suspension is good for more miles than I can stand driving the same
vehicle. (258,000 is the most I could stand so far.) On my current van I
just changed shocks the first time a 104,000, and tires go 50,000 miles
plus.
Too bad there isn't an easy replacement for the twin I-beam setup.
Lon, who wouldn't take a vehicle with Twin I-Beam if it were free.
DsrtTravlr
wrote:
>Lon, who wouldn't take a vehicle with Twin I-Beam if it were free.
>
Ever wonder why you don't see them any more? Except in TruckHedge sculptures.
Steve
Illegitimi non carborundum.
George Miklas
Lon VanOstran <RV...@voyager.net> wrote:
> My first (and last) Ford van had "twin I beam" front suspension. I
> replace the shocks 8 times in 94,000 miles, replaced the King Pins
(and
> every other front joint) at 60,000 miles, and destroyed 5 sets of
tires
> because the camber changed every time I changed the load. Thankfully I
> totaled the piece of crap at 94,000 miles when I was rear ended in the
> fog.
Lon, I wander why you might have had all that trouble. I used to use
Ford E-250 and E-350 vans in the expedited freight business where my
load changed everyday. I never had the problems that you talk about
even driving some 2000-3000 miles each week, most weeks of the year. I
had several Fords with the king pins, and I won't tell you that they
are faultless, but if you grease them every oil change, they will not
seize or wear excessively. In fact while I was expediting, I was
changing oil and greasing once a week. One of these vans was an 88 E-
250 where I got 90,000 miles out of ONE set of tires Michelin LTX
LT235/85R16E --best tires I ever bought.
> With the Astro vans I change out the factory idler arms with Moog and
> the suspension is good for more miles than I can stand driving the
same
> vehicle. (258,000 is the most I could stand so far.) On my current
van I
> just changed shocks the first time a 104,000, and tires go 50,000
miles
> plus.
Well how much load can you put into an Astro? When I talk about
loading a van with freight, I am talking about 2000# to 3400# that I
have hauled in a Ford E-350. I also had one 96 Chevy G3500. The Chev
had a good engine, but the front suspension continually bottomed out.
> Too bad there isn't an easy replacement for the twin I-beam setup.
There is a replacement--a straight axle as used in 4WD conversions.
> Lon, who wouldn't take a vehicle with Twin I-Beam if it were free.
You are the looser friend! I've driven Chevy, Dodge, and Ford vans
hauling loads and pulling trailers and by far, the Ford wins for
comfortable suspension.
George Miklas
> more wear points, is harder to align, and produces a LOT of alignment
> complaints. Ford has had a lot of "Better Ideas" but that wasn't one
> of them!
Will,
1.) In the 70s, Ford started offering an optional stabilizer/handling
bar and it really worked well for that geometric control.
2.) the weight of the axle really is marginal
3.) I find that it rides better than Chevy or Dodge. In fact, I find
that Chev and Dod bottoms out the front axle under a load or trailering.
4.) They are only harder to align if you let some discount tire shop
touch it. I have always had mine aligned at a professional auto/truck
spring shop. In 18 years, I have owned, operated, and maintained 16
Ford vans. I have never had an alignment problem.
5.) I can agree that this isn't the best-better idea, infact I wish
that Ford would have left it a straight axle. But if the alternative
is a suspension like Chevy or Dodge, then I'll keep my Ford.
W F Sill
vigorously defending the "twin I-beam" front end:
>5.) I can agree that this isn't the best-better idea, infact I wish
>that Ford would have left it a straight axle. But if the alternative
>is a suspension like Chevy or Dodge, then I'll keep my Ford.
Hang onto that sucker, George. It is bound to become part of
automotive history.
Lon VanOstran
> Well how much load can you put into an Astro? When I talk about
> loading a van with freight, I am talking about 2000# to 3400# that I
> have hauled in a Ford E-350. I also had one 96 Chevy G3500. The Chev
> had a good engine, but the front suspension continually bottomed out.
>
I haul the same products (1500-1800#) in the Astro vans that I did in
the Ford, except that I sell plenty more today than I did back in my
first 2 years in business (1977-78). That #$*&@#%&$*& Ford damn near put
me out of business since it spent more time in the shop than it did on
the road.
Like I said. I wouldn't take a new Ford with twin I-beam suspension if
it was free. I flat can't aford to drive one. I'll buy the Chevy Astro
vans thanks. I bought that Ford van for $5500. out the door, and spent
over $6,000 in repairs over 2 years and 94,000 miles. I don't think I
have spent that much on repairs in 22 years of driving Chevys since
then. Thank goodness I totaled that sucker before it broke me.
You wouldn't believe the torment I went through before relenting and
buying the MH with a Ford chassis.
Lon, who loves the MH chassis.
George Miklas
Lon VanOstran <RV...@voyager.net> wrote:
> You wouldn't believe the torment I went through before relenting and
> buying the MH with a Ford chassis.
> Lon, who loves the MH chassis.
Does the MH have straight axle, or Twin-I-Beam ?
Lon VanOstran
> Does the MH have straight axle, or Twin-I-Beam ?
>
Straight.
Lon, who wouldn't have gone *that* far.
George Miklas
Lon VanOstran <RV...@voyager.net> wrote:
> George Miklas wrote:
>
> > Does the MH have straight axle, or Twin-I-Beam ?
> Lon, who wouldn't have gone *that* far.
Well the straight axle is more suitable for your higher GAWR, but that
is not to say that Twin-I-Beam is not good.
I understand the difference in the geometry between the Twin-I-Beam and
the Chevy/Dodge suspension. I know that the Ford moves in an arc, and
the Chev/Dod moves perpendicular. I will agree with you that the T-I-B
is not perfect. Alignments take a finer degree of skill, but I feel
that even at a comprimise it is better than the Chev/Dod.
I have had many Fords with kingpins, and now I have had 3 Fords with
ball joints in place of the kingpins. I don't like the ball joints!
Now instead of bending the beams to change the camber, you have to
change the shims.
The worst part of the T-I-B suspension are the coil springs. No matter
how many times you set the alignment, the springs are forever wearing
in, or wearing out and thus, they always causing the suspension to go
out of alignment. Maybe an air ride suspension (to replace the coil
springs) with automatic levelers is the answer to keeping it aligned?
Hugh Darling
I think I've had maybe three vehicle front ends aligned in the last 45
years. I've never had a car or truck pull on the road except for bad
tires. I've never had tires with strange wear patterns unless because of
improper tire inflation or bad tires. My wife's car, 1991 Toyota
Corolla, has never had a tire alignment and has 83,000 miles. My current
truck, 1996 Sierra, has never had an alignment and has 73,000 miles. My
previous truck, 1991 Sonoma, never had an alignment and had 75,000 miles
when traded in. At no time has any of my front tires shown any abnormal
wear patterns (except for my wife's front tires being underinflated and
wearing the inside of the tires smooth). We've had Fords, Chevys,
Pontiacs, Lincolns, Fiats, Kaisers, Studebakers, Oldsmobiles, Mazda,
Toyotas, GMCs, AMCs and the only ones that have gotten front end
alignments have been one Pontiac and two Studebakers. Am I the only one
who thinks shops sell alignments to make money?
Hugh
George Miklas wrote:
>
> In article <39e19789$0$30009$2c3e...@news.voyager.net>,
> Lon VanOstran <RV...@voyager.net> wrote:
> > George Miklas wrote:
> >
> > > Does the MH have straight axle, or Twin-I-Beam ?
> > Straight.
> > Lon, who wouldn't have gone *that* far.
>
> Well the straight axle is more suitable for your higher GAWR, but that
> is not to say that Twin-I-Beam is not good.
>
> I understand the difference in the geometry between the Twin-I-Beam and
> the Chevy/Dodge suspension. I know that the Ford moves in an arc, and
> the Chev/Dod moves perpendicular. I will agree with you that the T-I-B
> is not perfect. Alignments take a finer degree of skill, but I feel
> that even at a comprimise it is better than the Chev/Dod.
>
> I have had many Fords with kingpins, and now I have had 3 Fords with
> ball joints in place of the kingpins. I don't like the ball joints!
> Now instead of bending the beams to change the camber, you have to
> change the shims.
>
> The worst part of the T-I-B suspension are the coil springs. No matter
> how many times you set the alignment, the springs are forever wearing
> in, or wearing out and thus, they always causing the suspension to go
> out of alignment. Maybe an air ride suspension (to replace the coil
> springs) with automatic levelers is the answer to keeping it aligned?
>
W F Sill
>I've never really understood the rationale of frequent wheel alignments.
>. . . . .Am I the only one
>who thinks shops sell alignments to make money?
No, but there are some reasons to get a good alignment done:
- lots of new motorhomes are delivered incorrectly aligned. Call it
sloppy factory setup or coachbuilder negligence if you like, but there
have been plenty of instances of poor initial alignment.
- it IS possible to "knock" a front end out of line with a serious
whack against a high curb or deep pothole. Though I happen to share
Hugh's POV that frequent alignment is unnecessary, it is the solution
to some handling and tire wear problems.
I have not done a survey but I don't mind admitting some shops doing
"alignment" are actually only adjusting your pocketbook! When
someone suggests it's necessary, ask why. Feathering of the tread
suggests too much toe-in, but wandering (vague steering) and 'pulling'
may have other causes unrelated to toe-in or camber. One shop crook
stated he could not do an alignment check (on our Cherokee Limited)
with old tires on it! And proceeded to tell several other lies before
I told him to take it off his lift before I called the cops.
Will Sill KD3XR
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but
in the end it leads to death" Prov 14:12 NIV
bill horne
When I was in the military, it usually took a couple of tries before I
found a shop that could do a decent alignment. By the time I needed
another one, I had usually been transferred somewhere else, and had to
start over. Now that I've got roots, and found the one competent
alignment guy in town (at the GM dealership, of all places), he'll
probably quit or die.
I also used to have trouble getting a proper wheel balance on the first
attempt, but technology seems to have neutralized incompetence in that
area. Remember when they used to spin the wheels with a thing that
looked like an upright vacuum cleaner, and then finger those little
rings on that thing clamped to the wheel until the vibration stopped? Do
they still do that anywhere? Some guys could do that, and some couldn't.
And there seemed to be more couldn'ts than coulds.
W F Sill
>I understand the difference in the geometry between the Twin-I-Beam and
>the Chevy/Dodge suspension. I know that the Ford moves in an arc, and
>the Chev/Dod moves perpendicular.
George, with due respect, I don't think you DO understand the
difference. The unequal-length A-frame suspension (common to many
cars and light trucks) also allows the wheel to "move in an arc". The
difference is that the A-frame geometry is more nearly ideal than the
dreaded "twin I-beam".
> I will agree with you that the T-I-B
>is not perfect. Alignments take a finer degree of skill, but I feel
>that even at a comprimise it is better than the Chev/Dod.
You opinion is not challenged. Your facts are:
>I have had many Fords with kingpins, and now I have had 3 Fords with
>ball joints in place of the kingpins. I don't like the ball joints!
>Now instead of bending the beams to change the camber, you have to
>change the shims.
Not "liking" ball joints hardly qualifies as a factual difference. I
don't "like" king pins, but I have a valid reason: alignment suffers
as soon as any wear occurs. On the contrary, ball joints maintain
virtually perfect alignment until they are worn out.
>The worst part of the T-I-B suspension are the coil springs. No matter
>how many times you set the alignment, the springs are forever wearing
>in, or wearing out and thus, they always causing the suspension to go
>out of alignment. Maybe an air ride suspension (to replace the coil
>springs) with automatic levelers is the answer to keeping it aligned?
I suppose height-controlled air bags would minimize THAT problem,
because alignment is correct on the T-I-B setup at only ONE ride
height. The moment you change ride height the alignment is off. By
contrast, the more common A-frame setup maintains good camber control
over a fairly wide range of ride height. Not to mention providing a
superior ride, lasting a LONG time with proper lube, and not requiring
an acetylene torch and a porta-power to align!
I'm not sure what you mean about coil springs "wearing out". I have
yet to see the first example of that - though I hasten to admit I
never owned a Ford with T-I-B suspension. I used to drive nothing but
Fords, but all mine either had the beam axle with the Ferrari-style
(hehehe) semi-elliptic springs or unequal-length A-frames.
I'm afraid you're defending a design that has very few virtues, many
faults, and a justifiable bad reputation.
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers
Hugh
supplied to coach builders and probably leave the factories skewed. I
guess I was just using my own experience as a criteria. I recall my
present truck had a very slight pull to the right. Asked the dealer to
check it out, he did, admitted it was within specs. Much later I
replaced the OEM tires and voile, the truck tracks straight and true.
Hugh
c...@hotpop.com
how it might apply to travel trailers? I have a new TT that doesn't
tow as well as I would expect....partlicuarly at 55 mph with a
cross-wind. Do people get new travel trailers aligned? (I have my
truck aligned and wheels balanced on a regular basis.) Thanks.
Chris
W F Sill
>Will, I appreciate your comments about alignment, but can you address
>how it might apply to travel trailers? I have a new TT that doesn't
>tow as well as I would expect....partlicuarly at 55 mph with a
>cross-wind. Do people get new travel trailers aligned? (I have my
>truck aligned and wheels balanced on a regular basis.) Thanks.
>Chris
Chris, a crosswind will make practically any TT wander a bit, but it
IS possible to have an axle bent or incorrectly installed. I am not
aware of any shops specializing in trailer alignment but maybe some
other reader is. If you are reasonably careful you can use a tape to
verify you have a small amount of toe-in (1/8" would be about right)
and that tandem axles are parallel and perpendicuar and all that. In
the past I've had some axles get bent, and straightened them with
chains & hydraulic jacks.
Stephen Hansen
to get a 4-wheel horse trailer, semi trailer, or auto trailer in. The
primary thing that I remember him doing is being sure both axles are
tracking on the same line. I'll ask him later for more details.
--
Stephen Hansen
1992 F250
1950 F-1
2000 Keystone Cougar 5th wheel
http://www.geocities.com/shansenw/
"W F Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:41o8uskf4l3a6aeqh...@4ax.com...
Stephen Hansen
trailers. He has aligned everything from boat trailers, utility trailers and
RV trailers.
On no trailer do they set any toe in, usually set it at perfect "O". The
only problem that occurs is when the manufacture doesn't get the springs
mounted right, sometime it won't track exactly straight
On camber he uses common since based upon the weight of the rig. Boats must
be loaded. On RV's he shoots for a slight positive camber due to the weight
of the trailer and the axle flexes when hitting bumps
Here is the basics of car alignment.
http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm
His shop specializes in Semi alignment, and has tools to bend axles. I don't
think the average tire shop would have the knowledge to do this job.
Mark Morissette
>aware of any shops specializing in trailer alignment but maybe some
>other reader is. If you are reasonably careful you can use a tape to
Look into commercial tractor-trailer repair shops for this service..
Although it's less of a problem nowadays with trailers being aligned
at the factory with laser equipment, it still happens occasionally
that an alignment job is necessary, and they have the equipment to do
it..
I would suspect that a TT would be workable on the same equipment.
---
Mark, Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
pepp...@spamcop.net