ISA engines to be available to consumers in 2005
Bob Giddings
this discussed anywhere.
"A handful of automotive component makers are developing new systems
that will shut a car's engine during traffic tie-ups, then restart
it...
"These systems promise to increase fuel efficiency by an average of 5%
to 10% and by as much as 50% for eight cylinders engines...
"The Integrated Starter Alternator is similar to the hybrid functions
found in compact and subcompact cars, which switch between gas and
electric motors. The ISA systems, however, are intended
for...trucks."
"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop. The engine kicks back
in when the driver releases pressure from the brakes or pushes the
accelerator. The ISA systems do more than just save fuel during
traffic jams. They also power electrical devices and can allow the
vehicle to be used as a generator that can run power tools and
machinery, or even provide backup power for a small home.
GM'z new trucks with ISA systems will include four 120V AC auxiliary
power outlets, which can power anything from a laptop to a hair dryer
while the vehicle is turned on - even if it is in traffic and the
engine is shut down...."
This sounds interesting for Class C motorhomes and pickups pulling
trailers. 'Course it may take them 4 or 5 years to get it right.
Anybody seen anything on this?
Bob
www.arcatapet.net/bobgiddings
Current email at:
bobgiddings0 at yahoo dot com
Janet Wilder
<m...@privacy.net> writes:
>"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
>speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop. The engine kicks back
>in when the driver releases pressure from the brakes or pushes the
>accelerator. The ISA systems do more than just save fuel during
>traffic jams. They also power electrical devices and can allow the
>vehicle to be used as a generator that can run power tools and
>machinery, or even provide backup power for a small home.
>
Sounds like the perfect RV Hauler for a big fifth wheel.<g>
J
The Road Princess
Residentially Challenged
Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility
Jon Porter
"Bob Giddings" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:vrdv40h6896sdhh38...@4ax.com...
> Interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal. I haven't seen
> this discussed anywhere.
>
> "A handful of automotive component makers are developing new systems
> that will shut a car's engine during traffic tie-ups, then restart
> it...
I can't help but remembering that this was worked on in years back, but I
don't think it ever became available. The closest that I know of is an
engine that was produced by GM that would shut down some of the cylinders of
a V8 when they weren't needed. That didn't stick around very long.
Don Dickson
Bob Giddings <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
GM has been working on this new system for several years. I think it might be
available in about a year (2006 models).
Another part of this is the improved fuel economy is for an engine to run on the
number of cylinders that it actually requires. There are several companies also
working on this. It's a system where the intake valves can be shut off to up to
4 cylinders in a v-8 for example. The shaft on the valve has a link which can
be disengaged so that the cam shaft doesn't open the valve.
--
Don Dickson
Bob Giddings
wrote:
Well, here's a little more info, before I throw out the paper:
"The new hybrid trucks will initially be available only to fleet and
commercial customers in the US but will make their way to consumers
beginning with the 2005 model year....
International Rectifier's product, which will begin shipping next
year, combines the starter and alternator into one system, removing
the hoses and belts and replacing them with multiple circuit boards
and high performance analog chips.
Its system will cost the car makers anywhere from $100 to $200 extera
and will also include brake regeneration, which takes power from the
brake and feeds it back to the car.... The El Segundo, California,
company said its ISA will be used in a large truck from one of the top
three North America auto makers this year."
Bob, who is not holding his breath, but thinks it's interesting...
Carl A.
"Don Dickson" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:nospam-14F4CE....@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Another part of this is the improved fuel economy is for an engine to run
on the
> number of cylinders that it actually requires. There are several companies
also
> working on this. It's a system where the intake valves can be shut off to
up to
> 4 cylinders in a v-8 for example. The shaft on the valve has a link which
can
> be disengaged so that the cam shaft doesn't open the valve.
Didn't Cadillac have a 4-6-8 engine in the seventies? A total flop, IIRC.
--
Carl A. in FL
Enjoy photo-journals of my travels at
http://sky.prohosting.com/chainfl/index.htm
Don Dickson
"Carl A." <cha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Don Dickson" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:nospam-14F4CE....@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> > Another part of this is the improved fuel economy is for an engine to run
> on the
> > number of cylinders that it actually requires. There are several companies
> also
> > working on this. It's a system where the intake valves can be shut off to
> up to
> > 4 cylinders in a v-8 for example. The shaft on the valve has a link which
> can
> > be disengaged so that the cam shaft doesn't open the valve.
>
>
> Didn't Cadillac have a 4-6-8 engine in the seventies? A total flop, IIRC.
I think you are right but this time there's several different companies working
on the technology so someone is going to get it right.
--
Don Dickson
Elliot Richmond
wrote:
>
>Well, here's a little more info, before I throw out the paper:
>
>
>"The new hybrid trucks will initially be available only to fleet and
>commercial customers in the US but will make their way to consumers
>beginning with the 2005 model year....
>>
>Its system will cost the car makers anywhere from $100 to $200 extera
>and will also include brake regeneration, which takes power from the
>brake and feeds it back to the car.... The El Segundo, California,
>company said its ISA will be used in a large truck from one of the top
>three North America auto makers this year."
Does this have anything to do with the Dodge Ram Contractor Special?
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/news/ram_contractor.html
I think the Dodge was batted around here a couple of months back. it
appears to be similar in functionality and a helluva lot more
expensive. Dodge is pushing the portable generator functionality.
Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor
El Alumbrado
> "A handful of automotive component makers are developing new systems
> that will shut a car's engine during traffic tie-ups, then restart
> it...
Isn't it true that start-ups are the most damaging part of an engine's
operating cycle, causing the most wear? Wouldn't this system cause an
engine to endure vastly more start-up/shut-down cycles than is
currently the case? Wouldn't the engines wear out much faster? Seems
like that would overwhelm any small percentage gains in economy.
What am I missing?
El Alumbrado
"Civis Texanus Sum"
ht
wrote:
>"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
>speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop. The engine kicks back
>in when the driver releases pressure from the brakes or pushes the
>accelerator. The ISA systems do more than just save fuel during
>traffic jams. They also power electrical devices and can allow the
>vehicle to be used as a generator that can run power tools and
>machinery, or even provide backup power for a small home.
>
Sure will make it uncomfortable or maybe even dangerous to have the
air conditioning or heat mandatorily cut off during traffic jams, huh?
--
Thanks..
HT
Don Dickson
elalu...@yahoo.com (El Alumbrado) wrote:
The start-up wear factor is most prevalent when an engine has been sitting for a
long period and the oil film drains off the cylinder sleeves etc. Also because
the oil is cold it is harder to pump and spreads more slowly. The starts and
stops they are talking about here are very short term so the oil would not drain
off or cool down.
--
Don Dickson
Dusty
news:nospam-14F4CE....@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> working on this. It's a system where the intake valves can be shut off to
up to
> 4 cylinders in a v-8 for example. The shaft on the valve has a link which
can
> be disengaged so that the cam shaft doesn't open the valve.
the engine would be dragging a sealed cylinder...that would be hard! The
valve would have to be locked open, somehow. Then you'd only be dragging
the "work" needed to move air in and out of the piston...still a formidable
about of "work."
And no, I don't know how Cadillac did it in their engine in the past, but as
others have said, I recall that it was a flop...
Dusty
--
Remove TRUCK to reply
>
> --
> Don Dickson
Max
> Bob Giddings <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal. I haven't seen
> > this discussed anywhere.
> >
> > "A handful of automotive component makers are developing new systems
> > that will shut a car's engine during traffic tie-ups, then restart
> > it...
> >
> > "These systems promise to increase fuel efficiency by an average of 5%
> > to 10% and by as much as 50% for eight cylinders engines...
> >
> > "The Integrated Starter Alternator is similar to the hybrid functions
> > found in compact and subcompact cars, which switch between gas and
> > electric motors. The ISA systems, however, are intended
> > for...trucks."
They're going to have to build better quality starters. In stop and go
usage, the starter is among the first components to fail.
Max
Neon John
that is valved in right before turn-over to lift the bearings and prevent
metal/metal contact. Another is to spin the engine electrically with a
compression released to minimize the initial pressure on the bearings. A
variation is to initiate the vehicle motion with the electric motor and turn
on the gas after motion is established. Yet another method is to keep the
engine slowly rotating during the 'stop" period, enough to maintain oil films.
One must remember that the maajor cause of startup wear on a conventional
engine - gas on the cylinder walls - won't be present here because the engine
will be rotated before fuel injection is commenced.
This has been a cause celebre in the trade press for several years. All the
Tier 1 suppliers (visteon, delco, etc) have products advertised on their web
pages. A major impediment remains the failure to agree on a 42 volt standard
(36 volt in common vernacular.) It is quite difficult to transmit the
necessary power at 12 volts.
Despite all the spin in the press, after studying this in some detail and
talking to engineer friends inside major car companies, what I expect to see
is this implimented as part of a parallel hybrid system. Only a high voltage
motor is capable of developing enough power to move the vehicle immediately
upon accelerator press while spinning up the engine. I don't believe people
will accept even the second or so delay required to spin up a gas engine and
engage the transmission.
Just some idle speculation on my part, of course.
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
MTV
It's coming back soon, but more refined and supposedly more reliable.
Marv
midwesterner
> Isn't it true that start-ups are the most damaging part of an engine's
> operating cycle, causing the most wear? Wouldn't this system cause an
> engine to endure vastly more start-up/shut-down cycles than is
> currently the case? Wouldn't the engines wear out much faster? Seems
> like that would overwhelm any small percentage gains in economy.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> El Alumbrado
> "Civis Texanus Sum"
I don't fully understand the system either. When the vehicle is
stopped, the AC and all assessories still work off of the 42V
batteries and the flywheel alternator. Does this mean the vehicle has
an electric AC unit or is the engine still spinning running the
belt-driven AC compressor?
The Feb 2003 Automotive Industries magazine had a couple of articles
that explain GM's stategy. The first was a Q&A with with Tom Stephens,
GM's group vice president of powertrains. Here are a couple of the
answers I picked out that show GM is aware of the recreation market:
from http://www.ai-online.com/issues/article_detail.asp?id=86
"Q. How will you proceed when you start getting real-world feedback on
your new systems?
A. Well, I'll make things up, but let's say that it is popular to have
the version that has an electronic power take-off with commercial guys
who buy work trucks who want them to power skill saws and planers and
drills and things at the work site. And let's say it is also popular
with campers or people that want to go tailgating at football games on
the weekend. If that happens, we can make a lot of those.
Q. Having driven the Japanese hybrids I'm not sure U.S. drivers will
embrace the lower power output of these vehicles. Have you found a way
around that?
A. Again, that is where DOD comes in. Americans like the power they
get now. They still like to put their families in the truck. They like
to get groceries. They like to pull their boat and with DOD, the power
is there when you need it and off when you don't. It's a no compromise
American solution. Doesn't compromise performance in any way and
you've got utility. So we don't just have a hybrid system, we have a
hybrid system designed for the way we drive in the U.S. That's why we
feel it is a good bridging strategy toward our long-term solution,
which is fuel cells."
The other articld got more in to the technical side:
http://www.ai-online.com/issues/article_detail.asp?id=85
key paragraph for GM truck enthusiasts:
"A much simpler system, available as an option to Chevy Silverado and
GMC Sierra fleet customers later this year and to retail customers in
2004, replaces the conventional alternator and starter with an
electric motor/generator cleverly packaged (in a patented
space-efficient manner) between the 285-hp 5.3L, Vortec V-8 and the
automatic transmission. It can improve economy 10 to 12 percent
primarily by shutting down the engine whenever the truck is coasting,
braking or at a stop. A revised 2007 version with Displacement on
Demand (DOD) cylinder deactivation will boost economy 15 to 20 percent
in GM trucks and SUVs.
The motor quickly and smoothly restarts the engine on demand and
generates electricity during coasting and (regenerative) braking. When
the engine is stopped, this electricity drives onboard accessories
such as power steering and HVAC. With the engine running, it can
provide up to 14,000 watts of continuous 20-amp power though two 110V
outlets in the bed and cab. Or it is stored for later use in a 42V PbA
battery."
Don Dickson
"Dusty" <rvli...@innerTRUCKlodge.com> wrote:
The intake valves have to stay closed to prevent any fuel mixture from entering.
I think there's something that holds the exhaust valves open so there's no back
pressure on the compression stroke.
--
Don Dickson
Don Dickson
That pretty much explains everything
--
Don Dickson
GBinNC
<johngdDO...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>there are several ways of addressing this. One is to have an oil reservoir
>that is valved in right before turn-over to lift the bearings and prevent
>metal/metal contact. Another is to spin the engine electrically with a
>compression released to minimize the initial pressure on the bearings. A
>variation is to initiate the vehicle motion with the electric motor and turn
>on the gas after motion is established.
This is the way the Prius works. The engine is spun up to about 1000
rpm with no compression, no fuel, and no spark. All are applied at the
same time, and suddenly the engine is running. If you pay close
attention you can feel it when it cuts in, but unless you're thinking
about it you don't even notice it unless you're watching the graphic
dashboard display (which I usually am <g>).
Toyota maintains that the engine can be started this way countless
times without damage. I know that on ours -- driving on our slow,
curvy mountain roads -- it willl run for a few seconds at a time when
I accelerate and then shut off for a few seconds while I decelerate,
then do it all over again -- repeatedly. Any time it's needed to
supplement the electric motor, it cuts in, regardless of the road
speed.
>Only a high voltage
>motor is capable of developing enough power to move the vehicle immediately
>upon accelerator press while spinning up the engine. I don't believe people
>will accept even the second or so delay required to spin up a gas engine and
>engage the transmission.
There is really no discernible delay on acceleration (from a standing
stop or otherwise) while the engine fires up and joins the party.
Acceleration is very smooth from zero to whatever -- and amazingly
fast. If you really stick your foot in it you'll leave almost
everything else standing at the light. It's phenomenal.
Driving a Prius is NOT like driving a compact car. It has *plenty* of
power and pickup at any speed. And the transmission is continuously
variable, so there's no shifting. It just accelerates smoothly all the
way up -- and it "downshifts" just as smoothly when needed. Plus the
thing tracks like it's on rails -- amazing handling and feeling of
control.
There's a *very* steep road a few miles from here that I drive on
every Sunday morning. It seems as if it goes nearly straight up for
two stretches of maybe a thousand feet each. (The locals use it as a
test of performance before buying a used car -- if the car will make
it up that hill, the engine's probably in pretty good condition.) In
my wife's Grand Voyager minivan -- 3.3 liter, 6-cyl., automatic -- I
have to manually shift down to the lowest gear, and it revs to about
4000 rpm and climbs slowly but steadily up at maybe 25 mph or so. It
really won't go much faster than that, so I don't push it.
However -- in the Prius last Sunday I decided to stick my foot in it
going up the steepest part of that road, and before I knew it I was
going 45 mph and rapidly picking up speed. I had to let off on it
because I was going way too fast for such a rough gravel road. I was
speechless. I have never seen *any* vehicle climb that hill like that.
The thing has amazing power.
>Just some idle speculation on my part, of course.
LOL. "Idle," indeed. Pretty good, John...
GB in NC
GBinNC
<Munged89...@ADDRESSmyrealbox.com> wrote:
>>"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
>>speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop. The engine kicks back
>>in when the driver releases pressure from the brakes or pushes the
>>accelerator. The ISA systems do more than just save fuel during
>>traffic jams. They also power electrical devices and can allow the
>>vehicle to be used as a generator that can run power tools and
>>machinery, or even provide backup power for a small home.
>Sure will make it uncomfortable or maybe even dangerous to have the
>air conditioning or heat mandatorily cut off during traffic jams, huh?
FWIW, the Prius has electric heat and a/c. They keep working even when
the engine shuts off.
If you sit still long enough for it to start pulling the battery down,
the engine will automatically start and run long enough to recharge,
then shut off again. You can sit indefinitely like this and it will
run only as needed (a minute or so at a time), but the temperature in
the vehicle remains constant.
Pretty neat system.
GB in NC
GBinNC
wrote:
>They're going to have to build better quality starters. In stop and go
>usage, the starter is among the first components to fail.
The Prius has no "starter" -- hence no failure. The electric motor
spins the engine to start it, as I described earlier in this thread.
GB in NC
GBinNC
>Driving a Prius is NOT like driving a compact car. It has *plenty* of
>power and pickup at any speed. And the transmission is continuously
>variable, so there's no shifting. It just accelerates smoothly all the
>way up -- and it "downshifts" just as smoothly when needed. Plus the
>thing tracks like it's on rails -- amazing handling and feeling of
>control.
I should also have added that acceleration is great at highway speed
too.
One day last week I was cruising along on a two-lane, rural US highway
at about 50 mph behind another car. When we got to a clear passing
zone I pulled out and stuck my foot in it, just for the heck of it.
Before I got back into my lane I was already doing 75 and still
picking up speed -- and the friend who was riding with me looked at me
with his jaw dropped open.
It just took off like a shot. Amazing, again. This thing is downright
fun to drive. Those Toyota folks are really onto something here...
GB in NC
ww...@cwnet.com
Can we use the Prius as a toad? IIRC, it is not conducive to such
utilization. Guess I should not trade my Caddy in yet....???
George
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:19:14 GMT, GBinNC <GBi...@yahoooo.com> wrote:
>This is the way the Prius works. The engine is spun up to about 1000
>rpm with no compression, no fuel, and no spark. All are applied at the
>same time, and suddenly the engine is running. If you pay close
>attention you can feel it when it cuts in, but unless you're thinking
>about it you don't even notice it unless you're watching the graphic
>dashboard display (which I usually am <g>).
>
>Toyota maintains that the engine can be started this way countless
>times without damage. I know that on ours -- driving on our slow,
>curvy mountain roads -- it willl run for a few seconds at a time when
>I accelerate and then shut off for a few seconds while I decelerate,
>then do it all over again -- repeatedly. Any time it's needed to
>supplement the electric motor, it cuts in, regardless of the road
>speed.
>
>There is really no discernible delay on acceleration (from a standing
GBinNC
>Can we use the Prius as a toad?
I doubt it. But I freely admit I don't know.
GB in NC
harvey
but they don't make sense to me.
Maybe it is too late at night for proper brain functioning, but
"14,000 watts of continuous 20-amp power though two 110V outlets"
Assuming that the engineers and proofreaders have a better memory than mine,
what am I missing?
Harvey
>
> The other articld got more in to the technical side:
> http://www.ai-online.com/issues/article_detail.asp?id=85
>
> The motor quickly and smoothly restarts the engine on demand and
Robt Rost
If I remember my formulas and math: watts divided by voltage equals amps.
voltage times amps equals watts.
14000 watts/120 volts=116.7 amps
120volts *20 amps* 2 (qtyof outlets)= 480 watts
Guess I need to read the articlle myself to see if it sheds some light on the
new math they must have used.
Bob Rost
Field Director
Indiana FCRV
Tom Marik
voltage times amps equals watts.
14000 watts/120 volts=116.7 amps
but 120 * 20 = 4800
If you really believed the hype maybe each gives 4800 watts. Then if you had a
big flywheel and slow blow breakers, maybe you could get 14,000 watts for a
couple of seconds.
Tom
Frank Damp
"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop."
If I'm driving a 14,000 lb GVW rig and I lose power steering and brake
boost at 13 mph, it's going to be quite a time before I can stop and
it will be in straight line!
Presumably, some bright spark has figured this out.
Frank Damp
Anacortes, WA
Elliot Richmond
wrote:
>Quote:
>
>"The truck engines will automatically shut off when motorists brake at
>speeds below 13 mph or come to a complete stop."
>
>If I'm driving a 14,000 lb GVW rig and I lose power steering and brake
>boost at 13 mph, it's going to be quite a time before I can stop and
>it will be in straight line!
>
Power steering, brakes (the part that is not regenerative), air
conditioning, etc., all electric operated.
Neon John
All accessories including PS, PB and the water pump will be electrically
driven on demand from the 42 volt bus. There will be no fan belts. Electric PS
is already on the market.
>
>
>Frank Damp
>Anacortes, WA