RV Converter, MagneTek 7345RU questions.
ben hogland
output to the battery. It was 13.75 volts. It had been charging for 6 days with
everything off in the motor home so there was no load
at all. I would have thought that it should have been in standby mode at about
13 volts (?) by then. I do normally see 13.9 volts when initially charging
(after approximately an hour) so 13.75 is lower but is it actually in standby
mode?
Have any of you that own a 7345RU ever measured to confirm a 7345RU was in
standby mode and if so, what
is the voltage that you measured? I can't find any info regarding it and the
included documentation sucks. I would like to also find out at what current draw
it considers the charge is done thus kicking into standby? Or is it a timer
function of the converter? Is the standby mode voltage adjustable?
TIA,
Ben
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Vince Wirth
>When I put the RV back into storage but before I unplugged it, I measured the
>output to the battery. It was 13.75 volts.
Ben,
13.75 volts is no problem. My 7345RU has been charging my battery with
that voltage and only need to add water once a year.
Vince
ben hogland
"Vince Wirth" <vince...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3c89433c...@news.earthlink.net...
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:58:15 -0800, "ben hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Ben,
> 13.75 volts is no problem. My 7345RU has been charging my battery with
> that voltage and only need to add water once a year.
OK, But if that's the case, it's no different from their analog version.. It
figures that they include next to nothing as far as documentation. They lead on
that it goes into a standby mode that most other high end chargers do by
actually reducing the voltage significantly to a safe standby level of around 13
volts. I thought there was something strange about it not going above 14 for
charge Voltage.. From what you are saying, it is normal operation to reduce the
output by only 150mVolts between standby and charge mode. Nothing different
from their analog version at all. There are converters available that do raise
the voltage above 14 volts for quick charging and lower it below 13.2 for
standby for about the same cost as this one.. I won't be recommending the
7345RU upgrade any longer to anyone if it works as it has and as you suggest it
does; there are equivalent current yet true dual stage converters on the market
for the same money or less.
Thanks for the info,
Ben
> Vince
ben hogland
"ben hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6c719$dc9t1$1...@ID-62937.news.dfncis.de...
On the same subject, the inteli-Power 9145 (by Progressive Dynamics) switching
converter will deliver 14.4 charge, 13.6 normal mode, 13.2 Standby and has an
equalization cycle that provides 14.4 Volts for 15 minutes every 21 hours while
in standby mode (all clear from the documentation). Total cost $253.00 Including
the charging wizard remote. The Megnetek 7345RU (upgrade unit only) is $210.00.
Seems to me I spent my money for the 7345RU in error.
Ben
>
> Ben
>
> > Vince
>
>
LUK PORTER
model) label said something like volatge output 12.1 volts at full load and
14.0 volts at no load--average charge rate 5 amps. I couldn't find any info
like that for the Inteli-Power. SO, even though the Inteli-Power puts out 14.4
volts, I am wondering at how many amps?
>On the same subject, the inteli-Power 9145 (by Progressive Dynamics)
>switching
>converter will deliver 14.4 charge, 13.6 normal mode, 13.2 Standby and has an
>equalization cycle that provides 14.4 Volts for 15 minutes every 21 hours
>while
>in standby mode (all clear from the documentation). Total cost $253.00
>Including
>the charging wizard remote. The Megnetek 7345RU (upgrade unit only) is
>$210.00.
>Seems to me I spent my money for the 7345RU in error.
>
>Ben
>From: "ben hogland"
ben hogland
news:20020309120434...@mb-fu.aol.com...
> I was looking at a coulpe of converter on E-Bay. A MagneTek (don't recall the
> model) label said something like volatge output 12.1 volts at full load and
> 14.0 volts at no load--average charge rate 5 amps. I couldn't find any info
> like that for the Inteli-Power. SO, even though the Inteli-Power puts out 14.4
> volts, I am wondering at how many amps?
I believe you are referring to the MagneTek 6300 series which is a non-regulated
linear converter. They have a separate charge line. The older ones only
delivered 6 amps max charging. I believe the newer ones will deliver 12 Amps.
The 7345RU is an electronic switching (regulated) converter and will deliver all
45 amps to charge but that would do little good for quick charge as the voltage
doesn't seem high enough to get the battery sinking current. So in reality,
unless there were more then several batteries, I don't believe it would ever
deliver 45 amps to the battery. The inteli-Power 9145 by Progressive Dynamics is
also a switching converter (regulated) like the 7345RU but will deliver 14.4
charge voltage at 45 amps thus more capable of charging quickly. Given the
higher voltage, the batteries will sink higher current thus charge faster.
Ben
Vince Wirth
>On the same subject, the inteli-Power 9145 (by Progressive Dynamics) switching
>converter will deliver 14.4 charge, 13.6 normal mode, 13.2 Standby and has an
>equalization cycle that provides 14.4 Volts for 15 minutes every 21 hours while
>in standby mode (all clear from the documentation). Total cost $253.00 Including
>the charging wizard remote. The Megnetek 7345RU (upgrade unit only) is $210.00.
>Seems to me I spent my money for the 7345RU in error.
Ben,
I tend to agree with you. About the only thing that the 7345RU has over the 6300
series is that they cleaned up the rectification and filtering on the DC. While
doing that they put all the loads on the battery for further filtering. The 6300
did not so the light and other loads were not filtered at all. Because of
putting the loads on the battery, they were not able to raise the charging
voltage too much without the danger of doing damage to the circuits connected.
In the end all you have is a stiffer 13.7 volt source that will supply 35 Amps
of current when the battery is low. I have an "E-meter" on my configuration
and I see the charging current diminish rapidly when only several Amp-hours
are returned to the battery. Remember, to get any high charge to a almost full
12 volt battery, you need a source voltage that might be too high for other
equipment on the line such as refrigerator and heater electronics. I know
nothing about the inteli-Power 9145 sso I cant comment about it.
Vince
Mickey
>
> I believe you are referring to the MagneTek 6300 series which is a
non-regulated
> linear converter. They have a separate charge line. The older ones only
> delivered 6 amps max charging. I believe the newer ones will deliver 12
Amps.
> The 7345RU is an electronic switching (regulated) converter and will
deliver all
> 45 amps to charge but that would do little good for quick charge as the
voltage
>snip
> Ben
>
Ben, the 6300 series converter does have a regulated charger. Not large and
not a switcher but regulated none the less.
Battery charging function has separate winding on the x-former and there is
a PC board for regulations. The charge voltage is adjustable.
Mickey
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ben hogland
"Mickey" <mathena@canbydotcom> wrote in message
news:u8kkp5a...@corp.supernews.com...
> Ben, the 6300 series converter does have a regulated charger. Not large and
> not a switcher but regulated none the less.
>
> Battery charging function has separate winding on the x-former and there is
> a PC board for regulations. The charge voltage is adjustable.
Actually, if you vary the input voltage the DC output level will shift as well..
Thus, it's not regulated. It is rectified, but not regulated. If it would, the
output would not shift when the input varies.
Ben
ben hogland
> Ben,
> I tend to agree with you. About the only thing that the 7345RU has over the
6300
> series is that they cleaned up the rectification and filtering on the DC.
While
> doing that they put all the loads on the battery for further filtering. The
6300
> did not so the light and other loads were not filtered at all. Because of
> putting the loads on the battery, they were not able to raise the charging
> voltage too much without the danger of doing damage to the circuits connected.
> In the end all you have is a stiffer 13.7 volt source that will supply 35 Amps
> of current when the battery is low. I have an "E-meter" on my configuration
> and I see the charging current diminish rapidly when only several Amp-hours
> are returned to the battery. Remember, to get any high charge to a almost full
> 12 volt battery, you need a source voltage that might be too high for other
> equipment on the line such as refrigerator and heater electronics. I know
> nothing about the inteli-Power 9145 sso I cant comment about it.
Hi Vince,
A charge voltage of 14.4 volts shouldn't harm any electronics. In most rigs,
when running the vehicle motor, the house batteries are connected VIA a relay to
the alternator which pushes normally 14.4 volts thus when the engine is running,
the refrig and all are seeing the higher voltage. However, it definitely would
not be good to have that higher charge voltage on the batteries continuously for
a long period of time, I agree.
BTW, I turned my old 6300 series into a portable charger.. I cranked the trim
pot as high as it will go which is about 14.4 volts at a small load given my
line voltage here. Works great for a portable charger cept under load it sags
significantly..
Ben
Vince Wirth
>BTW, I turned my old 6300 series into a portable charger.. I cranked the trim
>pot as high as it will go which is about 14.4 volts at a small load given my
>line voltage here. Works great for a portable charger cept under load it sags
>significantly..
Ben,
Great minds go in the same circles. Look at;
http://home.earthlink.net/~vincewirth/charger.htm
I put a muffin fan in it and even at 30 Amps charge, It
never gets hot. I totally bypassed the regulator and the
output voltage to a low battery is about 16 with 35 amps
flowing.Once or twice a year, I disconnect the battery from
the MH and "Boil" it with that 16 volts to equalize the cells.
Vince
ben hogland
"Vince Wirth" <vince...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3c8a6422...@news.earthlink.net...
Hey, that's nice.. You painted yours too.. :-) Mine doesn't have the meter on
it though.
Ben
--
LUK PORTER
charge rate of 5 amps. BUT, the reason I am wondering is, I have a MagneTek
940. What might the charge rate of this unit be? Does this thing actually
charge at 40 amps. Some time ago I called MagneTek and the guy there told me it
does put out 40 amps. It never occured to me that the voltage wouldn't be
sufficient to charge quickly. I have been thinking about an Inteli-Power--if it
actually charges at the stated rate? Would it be worthwhile to change units?
ben hogland
"LUK PORTER" <lukp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020309145421...@mb-fb.aol.com...
> The converter I saw on E-Bay was a 7455--a 55 amp job that quopted a average
> charge rate of 5 amps. BUT, the reason I am wondering is, I have a MagneTek
> 940. What might the charge rate of this unit be? Does this thing actually
> charge at 40 amps. Some time ago I called MagneTek and the guy there told me
it
> does put out 40 amps. It never occured to me that the voltage wouldn't be
> sufficient to charge quickly. I have been thinking about an Inteli-Power--if
it
> actually charges at the stated rate? Would it be worthwhile to change units?
Actually, I believe you're correct that your Megnetek doesn't put out enough
voltage for rapid charges. I believe the 940 is a linear charger like the 6300
series.
I boondock a lot so it's important to me. I'd like to charge the batteries by
running the gen for just an hour or two per day. Would it be worth while to
upgrade? It would depend on whether or not you boondock for extended periods.
I'm seriously thinking of upgrading to the inteli-Power 9145 before my two week
RV trip this summer. I'll be boondocking the entire time so fast charging well
help. I see that BRwholesale.com has them plus the charging wizard remote that
attaches to it for 253.
Ben
Lou Schneider
very close to 13.75 volts on anywhere from no load to full output
current.
If you have short, fat cables connecting it to the batteries you will
get high current during the first part of the charging cycle, then the
current will taper off as the batteries gain a charge. The output
voltage remains constant throughout this.
I had two 6 volt golf cart batteries directly behind the charger,
connected by about 3 ft. of #8 wire. The 6345 would initially charge
at anywhere from 35-45 amps, depending on how far the batteries were
down. Smaller wire and/or longer distances will reduce the initial
charging current significantly due to the voltage loss in the wire.
It doesn't take more than a couple of tenths of a volt drop at the
battery terminals to drastically reduce the rate of charge.
As the batteries filled, the charge rate decreased until it was down
to about 10 amps at about 80% full charge. The last 20% took a long
time to get into the batteries, as the current wasn't very much during
that part of the cycle.
On the plus side, my batteries only used water when I was boondocking,
moving power in and out of them. When I was connected to
electricity I would go several months without having to add water.
Lou Schneider
ben hogland
news:plrk8u4vbsqervkno...@4ax.com...
> The 7345RU does not have a "standby mode". The output voltage stays
> very close to 13.75 volts on anywhere from no load to full output
> current.
>
> If you have short, fat cables connecting it to the batteries you will
> get high current during the first part of the charging cycle, then the
> current will taper off as the batteries gain a charge. The output
> voltage remains constant throughout this.
>
> I had two 6 volt golf cart batteries directly behind the charger,
> connected by about 3 ft. of #8 wire. The 6345 would initially charge
> at anywhere from 35-45 amps, depending on how far the batteries were
> down. Smaller wire and/or longer distances will reduce the initial
> charging current significantly due to the voltage loss in the wire.
> It doesn't take more than a couple of tenths of a volt drop at the
> battery terminals to drastically reduce the rate of charge.
>
> As the batteries filled, the charge rate decreased until it was down
> to about 10 amps at about 80% full charge. The last 20% took a long
> time to get into the batteries, as the current wasn't very much during
> that part of the cycle.
>
> On the plus side, my batteries only used water when I was boondocking,
> moving power in and out of them. When I was connected to
> electricity I would go several months without having to add water.
>
> Lou Schneider
Thanks for the clarification.. I was thinking that it was suppose to have a
higher voltage for charging and a lower standby voltage. Unfortunately, the
location of my converter to the batteries is about 4 feet and I can't change
that. After looking at the Inteli-Power converter more closely, it seems that
one will suit my needs better.. Luckily, I have enough room to add it directly
behind the existing Magnetek leaving the Megnetek in place only as to not leave
a hole and to utilize it's AC breakers and DC terminal fuses... Should be a very
easy upgrade taking less then an hour.
Ben
Lon VanOstran
Check here with Camping World, and see for yourself. You can choose 40
amp, or 55 amp.
http://www.campingworld.com/browse/products/index.cfm?deptID=3&subOf=215,55&prodID=1768
Lon
Chris Bryant
<<..>>
>I boondock a lot so it's important to me. I'd like to charge the batteries by
>running the gen for just an hour or two per day. Would it be worth while to
>upgrade? It would depend on whether or not you boondock for extended periods.
>I'm seriously thinking of upgrading to the inteli-Power 9145 before my two week
>RV trip this summer. I'll be boondocking the entire time so fast charging well
>help. I see that BRwholesale.com has them plus the charging wizard remote that
>attaches to it for 253.
Ben- don't give up on the 7345 yet (sorry I haven't got back
to you on that). While I do think the 9145 would charge faster, I'm
not at all certain that it would be *that* much faster- you need to
get an ammeter on the circuit to see how many amps are actually going
in to the battery when it is discharged.
Note- I'm not a battery expert, but this is how I understand
it- the expensive three stage chargers with the "bulk" "absorbtion (or
acceptance)" and "float" voltages will actually put out near 16 volts
on "bulk" charge- (they are putting out their rated current at
whatever voltage it takes to generate that current flow) until the
current drops, at which point they go into the acceptance, where they
go to 14.something volts, until the battery voltage comes up to that
point, at which point they go to "float", or under 13.6 volts.
The trouble with these expensive chargers is that while the
electronics will not mind 14-15 volts, over 15 is starting to get
pretty high.
Anyway- I wouldn't overly worry about the 7345 and
measurements- I would just use it and see if it works- and remember
that too fast a charge isn't really good for the batteries.
--
Chris Bryant
Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com
ben hogland
I found another brand that does the same as the inteli-Power 9145 by Progressive
Dynamics. It's basically identical to the inteli-Power but a bit cheaper. It's
$213 for the 45 amp or $231 for the 55 amp. The difference is, the charging
wizard remote comes with it and is not sold separately. It is the Ultra 3 by
WFCO. The Ultra three is also sold at BR Wholesale. Here is a link to all the
converters/chargers they sale. for me, I want the 45 amp version so the price
difference is 40 dollars. The inteli-Power 9145 is $226 plus $27 (total $253)
for the remote (which is required to use all 3 stages).
http://www.brwholesale.com/catalog/sections/converters_chargers.pdf
Ben
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"LUK PORTER" <lukp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020309145421...@mb-fb.aol.com...
ben hogland
"Chris Bryant" <Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:be1l8u0fs76dg34ob...@4ax.com...
> Ben- don't give up on the 7345 yet (sorry I haven't got back
> to you on that). While I do think the 9145 would charge faster, I'm
> not at all certain that it would be *that* much faster- you need to
> get an ammeter on the circuit to see how many amps are actually going
> in to the battery when it is discharged.
> Note- I'm not a battery expert, but this is how I understand
> it- the expensive three stage chargers with the "bulk" "absorbtion (or
> acceptance)" and "float" voltages will actually put out near 16 volts
> on "bulk" charge- (they are putting out their rated current at
> whatever voltage it takes to generate that current flow) until the
> current drops, at which point they go into the acceptance, where they
> go to 14.something volts, until the battery voltage comes up to that
> point, at which point they go to "float", or under 13.6 volts.
> The trouble with these expensive chargers is that while the
> electronics will not mind 14-15 volts, over 15 is starting to get
> pretty high.
> Anyway- I wouldn't overly worry about the 7345 and
> measurements- I would just use it and see if it works- and remember
> that too fast a charge isn't really good for the batteries.
Hi Chris,
No problem and I know you were busy. But the Intelli-power and the WFCO Ultra 3
are voltage regulated and delivers to a max of 14.4 volts. It is not a current
source, it is a voltage source and provides the current to maintain the voltage.
In other words, they are true power supplies and can operate without a battery
connected. But you are right, I do need to get an ammeter built in. It would
make things easier. I have measured the current though, and it's not much an
hour into the charge on a low battery. I boondock quite a lot so it's important
to me to have quick charges..
I know the 7345RU charges quicker then my original 6300 series converter because
of the stiffer voltage source but it's not what I expected. Another reason for
me to want a faster charging time is because where I park, there is no power. I
can run the generator a couple hours and top of the battery every few weeks with
these other converters.. As far as expense, the WFCO Ultra three is 3 dollars
more then the 7345RU. It just that the Magnetek is not what I expected and was
disappointed on my long trip (which I boondocked) last year with it too.. I'm
sold on these other two converters. I just wish I would have checked it out more
thoroughly before I bought the 7345RU but I'm a bone-head at times.. ;-)
Thanks for the response.
Ben
Chris Bryant
<<..>>
>Hi Chris,
>
>No problem and I know you were busy. But the Intelli-power and the WFCO Ultra 3
>are voltage regulated and delivers to a max of 14.4 volts. It is not a current
>source, it is a voltage source and provides the current to maintain the voltage.
>In other words, they are true power supplies and can operate without a battery
>connected. But you are right, I do need to get an ammeter built in. It would
>make things easier. I have measured the current though, and it's not much an
>hour into the charge on a low battery. I boondock quite a lot so it's important
>to me to have quick charges..
You know- if quick charges are that important, I would find a
place right near the battery to mount a PD9155 (or even a PD9180)- and
just run new, separate cables to the battery- for that matter, I
*think* you could get a PD9145, run new cables to the battery, and
leave the 7345 in an working- ( a couple of years ago I replaced a
TU975 with 2 PD9145s and was told to just use the charge wizard on one
of them)- while with the PD9145 *and* the 7345, you wouldn't get 90
amps of charging, you would get better than either by itself.
>I know the 7345RU charges quicker then my original 6300 series converter because
>of the stiffer voltage source but it's not what I expected. Another reason for
>me to want a faster charging time is because where I park, there is no power. I
>can run the generator a couple hours and top of the battery every few weeks with
>these other converters.. As far as expense, the WFCO Ultra three is 3 dollars
>more then the 7345RU. It just that the Magnetek is not what I expected and was
>disappointed on my long trip (which I boondocked) last year with it too.. I'm
>sold on these other two converters. I just wish I would have checked it out more
>thoroughly before I bought the 7345RU but I'm a bone-head at times.. ;-)
Personally, I would be wary of the WFCO- I'm still smarting
over the Todd fiasco, and I have found the PD units very reliable, and
Progressive Dynamics is likely to be around for a while.
But.. the final thought is that your 7345 may well be
defective, as I believe it should do nearly as good a job as the other
units.
ww...@earthlink.net
<Bryan...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Ben- don't give up on the 7345 yet (sorry I haven't got back
>to you on that). While I do think the 9145 would charge faster, I'm
>not at all certain that it would be *that* much faster- you need to
>get an ammeter on the circuit to see how many amps are actually going
>in to the battery when it is discharged.
> Note- I'm not a battery expert, but this is how I understand
>it- the expensive three stage chargers with the "bulk" "absorbtion (or
>acceptance)" and "float" voltages will actually put out near 16 volts
>on "bulk" charge- (they are putting out their rated current at
>whatever voltage it takes to generate that current flow) until the
>current drops, at which point they go into the acceptance, where they
>go to 14.something volts, until the battery voltage comes up to that
>point, at which point they go to "float", or under 13.6 volts.
> The trouble with these expensive chargers is that while the
>electronics will not mind 14-15 volts, over 15 is starting to get
>pretty high.
Chris,
The way most of the three stage chargers that I have seen work is that
in the "Bulk Stage", the charger applies as much current as it is
rated for until the voltage builds up to 14.4 volts, When the voltage
reaches the 14.4 value, it switches to the Acceptance or absorbtion
stage and maintains the 14.4 volts and the current slowly drops as the
battery resistance builds due to the increased charge. When the
current flow reaches some preset value (usually about 2 - 5% of the
battery capacity), the charger switches to the "float stage" where the
voltage is maintained at a value that is below the gassing voltage of
the battery, usually 13.6 at 70 degrees. Note that these values are
dependent upon the temperature of the batteries and if you have
temperature sensing, they will vary dependent upon the requirements of
the batteries for the conditions.
The only time I have seen high voltages is when equalizing, which is
manually selected and the instructions advise to turn off all 12 volt
appliances.
George
ben hogland
> ben hogland wrote:
> You know- if quick charges are that important, I would find a
> place right near the battery to mount a PD9155 (or even a PD9180)- and
> just run new, separate cables to the battery- for that matter, I
> *think* you could get a PD9145, run new cables to the battery, and
> leave the 7345 in an working- ( a couple of years ago I replaced a
> TU975 with 2 PD9145s and was told to just use the charge wizard on one
> of them)- while with the PD9145 *and* the 7345, you wouldn't get 90
> amps of charging, you would get better than either by itself.
Interesting idea.. But I don't have space next to my batteries. I only have
space available behind the existing Magnetek. There is about 4' of cable run
between the batteries and the converter. It is low gauge (large) cable but there
is still voltage drop from it to the batteries which I believe makes a
difference too. The only way to rectify the issue is a higher charge voltage.
Batteries will sink more current with a higher voltage like that which comes
from the alternator of the vehicle engine.. It's not only about available
current, it's about getting the voltage up to achieve the greatest absorption of
current. I do want a self contained system and don't want to connect an
external charger every time that I need a faster charge.. But if there is a
cheaper self contained way, I'm all ears.. I'll look into the other converters
you suggested and thanks..
> Personally, I would be wary of the WFCO- I'm still smarting
> over the Todd fiasco, and I have found the PD units very reliable, and
> Progressive Dynamics is likely to be around for a while.
Good info.. Maybe an extra 40 bucks is worth it for the Progressive Dynamics
converter then..
> But.. the final thought is that your 7345 may well be
> defective, as I believe it should do nearly as good a job as the other
> units.
I don't think it is.. According to several post in this thread (From Vince and
from Lou) the 7345RU is a constant voltage source at around 13.8 volts.. Just as
mine is working.. The documentation for the Magnetek really does leave a lot to
be desired...
Thanks for the input,
Ben
Chris Bryant
<<..>>
>Chris,
>
>The way most of the three stage chargers that I have seen work is that
>in the "Bulk Stage", the charger applies as much current as it is
>rated for until the voltage builds up to 14.4 volts, When the voltage
>reaches the 14.4 value, it switches to the Acceptance or absorbtion
>stage and maintains the 14.4 volts and the current slowly drops as the
>battery resistance builds due to the increased charge. When the
>current flow reaches some preset value (usually about 2 - 5% of the
>battery capacity), the charger switches to the "float stage" where the
>voltage is maintained at a value that is below the gassing voltage of
>the battery, usually 13.6 at 70 degrees. Note that these values are
>dependent upon the temperature of the batteries and if you have
>temperature sensing, they will vary dependent upon the requirements of
>the batteries for the conditions.
>
>The only time I have seen high voltages is when equalizing, which is
>manually selected and the instructions advise to turn off all 12 volt
>appliances.
>
>George
Thanks, George- the only thing I am missing is why they are 3
stage- it seems to me that as long as they have a 14.4volt setting,
and then a ~13.6 volt setting then the operation would be the same-
IOW, I only see two real stages (and the funny part is the PD charge
wizard actually does have three distinct voltage settings- 14.2, 13.8
and 13.2).
I did find one reference to a 14.8 volt "bulk charge" voltage
for the statpower trucharge, but you're correct- most said 14.4 volts.
ben hogland
> I don't think it is.. According to several post in this thread (From Vince
and
> from Lou) the 7345RU is a constant voltage source at around 13.8 volts.. Just
as
> mine is working.. The documentation for the Magnetek really does leave a lot
to
> be desired...
I should have added, though, if you find out more info about the Magnetek as far
as specifications, *please* let me know. I don't plan on upgrading for several
months yet regarding the inteli-power converter. Seems to me, there is no
written specs for the 7345RU and it's all hearsay at this point. Magnetek is
doing itself no favors by keeping things vague. They are not the cheapest
converter out there but, I believe, they have the worst documentation of them
all. It appears they count on the customer being non-intelligent. As a matter of
fact, I challenge Magnetek to give specs on the 7345RU.. Thus far, I've found
nothing at all other then cursory stuff that is not directly related to the
specification...
Ben
--
--
Join the Pacific Northwest Campout in April! For info visit:
http://www.rvlover.net/pnwco3.htm
--
ww...@earthlink.net
Let me see if I can clarify it a bit. I happen to currently have the
Heart Freedom 25 with temperature sensing. I also have the additional
regulator that controls the alternator so that it is also a three
stage charger.
When charging is commenced, either from shore power or alternator,
the charging system allows as much current to flow as the charging
system is capable of putting out. The Inverter/charger is rated at 130
amps and the alternator is rated at 220 amps. I might also mention
that I have four Trojan L-16HC batteries with a capacity of 790 amps
hours. When charging commences, the voltage in the batteries is low
and, subsequently, the charging voltage is relatively low to push the
high current flow into the batteries. Based upon a 70 degree battery
temperature, the current continues to flow at the maximum rate until
the voltage reaches the 14.4 volts. This is called the bulk stage of
charging and usually does not last very long. Once the voltage
reaches the 14.4 point, the voltage is held constant and the current
slowly decreases. This is called the acceptance stage and it continues
until the current flow has decreased to approximately 2% of the
capacity of the battery bank. Then the voltage is dropped back to the
13 .6 volts as a float charge.
Batteries usually gas at any voltage above 13,8 volts. By maintaining
the float voltage below the gassing voltage, there is little chance of
boiling the batteries dry.
Conversely, the normal method of charging using a voltage of 13.8
volts maximum minimizes the amount of water that is evaporated but
only charges the battery to approximately 85% of its capacity. The
higher voltage in the acceptance phase makes a large difference in the
amount of usable power available. Consider that a good practice is
that you limit the discharge of the deep cycle battery to 50% of its
capacity. If the battery is only charged to 85% of capacity, you have
lost the use of 30% of the battery capacity. Example: A 100 amp hour
battery would only be charged to a maximum of 85 amp hours capacity
using 13,8 volts charging. This means that you are down 15 amp hours
at the start and if you are going to only discharge to 50 amp hours
(which will give you a much linger battery life.) the you only have 35
amp hours usable instead of 50 amp hours. This is a decrease of 30%.
Now for starting batteries, this is normally sufficient but when
spending time boon docking, it sure is nice to have the extra power
available. Since I have changed over to the three stage charging
system with temp sensing, I have noticed two drastic differences.
First the batteries last longer on a charge than they did before with
the single stage type of charger. Second, I seldom have to add water,
whereas before, we had to add water monthly.
I hope this helps.
If not, perhaps studying the information on www.amplepower.com will
help.
George
LUK PORTER
info--http://www.parallaxpower.com/Converters/converters.html
ben hogland
> MagneTek is now Parallax Power Components. Their site has very little
> info--http://www.parallaxpower.com/Converters/converters.html
Yep, thanks.. I should have mentioned that they are now Parallax. Chris Bryant
mention that to me a few weeks ago.
This morning I did browse there site a bit and like you said, they have no info.
I did notice that BR Wholesale is an authorized service center too.. This I
didn't know until today. I emailed BR Wholesale this morning to see if they can
send me the specs.
ben hogland
<ww...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:r34m8ucjgd7vdiuna...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 19:33:21 -0500, Chris Bryant
> >>The way most of the three stage chargers that I have seen work is that
> >>in the "Bulk Stage", the charger applies as much current as it is
> >>rated for until the voltage builds up to 14.4 volts, When the voltage
> >>reaches the 14.4 value, it switches to the Acceptance or absorbtion
> >>stage and maintains the 14.4 volts and the current slowly drops as the
> >>battery resistance builds due to the increased charge.....
This explains why Magnetek calls theirs a dual stage too.. I didn't understand
why it was called a dual stage until now.. The "bulk stage" sources current to
the batteries at max current rating until it hits 13.6 (or there abouts) then it
becomes a voltage source. Either way, it's still a voltage source as it can't
provide the current to maintain the voltage during the "bulk stage". That is, To
me that would be single stage because all it trying to do is maintain the
voltage and since it can't push enough current to maintain the voltage, the
voltage sags. But I do understand now how they get away with calling it a dual
stage.
Thanks,
Ben
Mickey
>
>
>
> Actually, if you vary the input voltage the DC output level will shift as
well..
> Thus, it's not regulated. It is rectified, but not regulated. If it would,
the
> output would not shift when the input varies.
>
> Ben
>
the rectifiers. You know the pot, the transistors, resisters etc. No
regulation on the high current winding that feeds the coach 12V system but
that power isn't feeding the battery and I thought that was what was being
discussed. I'm not saying the regulation is that of a high precision
regulator but regulated none the less.
ben hogland
"Mickey" <mathena@canbydotcom> wrote in message
news:u8ng7nf...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Please, then tell me what all those components on the PCB are in addition to
> the rectifiers. You know the pot, the transistors, resisters etc. No
> regulation on the high current winding that feeds the coach 12V system but
> that power isn't feeding the battery and I thought that was what was being
> discussed. I'm not saying the regulation is that of a high precision
> regulator but regulated none the less.
OK, maybe so, but regulation in my mind will keep the voltage at a consistent
output not dependant on the input voltage (within a range).
Me, coming from the electronic industry, find It funny how these terms are used
so loosely by some. Just don't try disconnecting the battery from the 6300
series, you'll likely blow your 12 volt appliances.
Ben
bill horne
>
> "Mickey" <mathena@canbydotcom> wrote in message
> news:u8ng7nf...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Please, then tell me what all those components on the PCB are in addition to
> > the rectifiers. You know the pot, the transistors, resisters etc. No
> > regulation on the high current winding that feeds the coach 12V system but
> > that power isn't feeding the battery and I thought that was what was being
> > discussed. I'm not saying the regulation is that of a high precision
> > regulator but regulated none the less.
>
> OK, maybe so, but regulation in my mind will keep the voltage at a consistent
> output not dependant on the input voltage (within a range).
>
> Me, coming from the electronic industry, find It funny how these terms are used
> so loosely by some. Just don't try disconnecting the battery from the 6300
> series, you'll likely blow your 12 volt appliances.
>
> Ben
I just went outside and did some voltage readings on my Magnetec 6332:
At batt, with batt cables connected - 13.70
At batt, with batt cables disconnected - 13.46
At light socket, with batt cables connected - 12.19
At light socket, with batt cables disconnected - 12.22
How is that going to blow anything?
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
ben hogland
"bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message news:3C8BF548...@rye.net...
> ben hogland wrote:
> I just went outside and did some voltage readings on my Magnetec 6332:
>
> At batt, with batt cables connected - 13.70
> At batt, with batt cables disconnected - 13.46
> At light socket, with batt cables connected - 12.19
> At light socket, with batt cables disconnected - 12.22
>
> How is that going to blow anything?
Bill,
I wouldn't recommend doing that with appliances connected for too long. You are
viewing a DC meter readout. Just out of my own curiosity, I put my meter on my
6335 without a battery connected and I get 15.35 volts DC. Not sure why yours
would be any different other then your volt meter is reading differently due to
the cycled peaks or you have another load on it. I'm sure the peaks are much
higher though.. Remember, it's rectified. The peaks will be much larger then
what your meter is telling you. You will do damage to your 12 volt appliances.
May I suggest you look at it with an oscilloscope before you pass judgment? I'm
sure Chris Brant would agree with me on this.
Ben
David E Thom
superimposed on the DC value. When connected to a battery, the battery tends
to suppress the ripple. (This is THEORY mind you). Try your two
"light socket" trials again, this time with the voltmeter set to measure AC.
Please let us know the outcome.
ben hogland
"David E Thom" <dt...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:B8B147CC.3C036%dt...@direct.ca...
> Some of the 6332 DC outputs (circuits) have a significant AC ripple
> superimposed on the DC value. When connected to a battery, the battery tends
> to suppress the ripple. (This is THEORY mind you). Try your two
> "light socket" trials again, this time with the voltmeter set to measure AC.
> Please let us know the outcome.
Since in AC mode, a meter is looking for plus and minus, what-ever he reads
won't be reliable.. He needs an oscilloscope to truly see what it there.
Ben
bill horne
>
> "bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message news:3C8BF548...@rye.net...
> > ben hogland wrote:
>
> > I just went outside and did some voltage readings on my Magnetec 6332:
> >
> > At batt, with batt cables connected - 13.70
> > At batt, with batt cables disconnected - 13.46
> > At light socket, with batt cables connected - 12.19
> > At light socket, with batt cables disconnected - 12.22
> >
> > How is that going to blow anything?
>
> Bill,
>
> I wouldn't recommend doing that with appliances connected for too long. You are
> viewing a DC meter readout. Just out of my own curiosity, I put my meter on my
> 6335 without a battery connected and I get 15.35 volts DC. Not sure why yours
> would be any different other then your volt meter is reading differently due to
> the cycled peaks or you have another load on it.
I had one light on, so that I could see my DVM.
>I'm sure the peaks are much
> higher though.. Remember, it's rectified. The peaks will be much larger then
> what your meter is telling you. You will do damage to your 12 volt appliances.
> May I suggest you look at it with an oscilloscope before you pass judgment? I'm
> sure Chris Brant would agree with me on this.
>
> Ben
I don't have any 12 V appliances - except a pump and a fan - but I do
have an o'scope. I'll dig it out tomorrow, and if it still works, I'll
see what it says.
ben hogland
> I don't have any 12 V appliances - except a pump and a fan - but I do
> have an o'scope. I'll dig it out tomorrow, and if it still works, I'll
> see what it says.
Good plan..
I have an oscilloscope too but like yours, it's buried.
Ben..
David E Thom
is, what you call "looking for plus and minus". Of course, a scope would be
better but not many of us RVers have access to one. After my post I found my
old 6330 and bench tested it - without a battery. For the first 6 circuits I
got readings of 12.7 (DC mode) and 7.0 V AC mode. On the last 3 outputs
(those intended for the sensitive appliances) I got 12.7 DC and 2.0 AC.
I am suggesting that the 7.0 and 2.0 represent the ripple +/- about the
average (DC) value of 12.7 V.
ben hogland
> What I <think> the AC meter would read is the RMS value of the ripple. That
> is, what you call "looking for plus and minus". Of course, a scope would be
> better but not many of us RVers have access to one. After my post I found my
> old 6330 and bench tested it - without a battery. For the first 6 circuits I
> got readings of 12.7 (DC mode) and 7.0 V AC mode. On the last 3 outputs
> (those intended for the sensitive appliances) I got 12.7 DC and 2.0 AC.
> I am suggesting that the 7.0 and 2.0 represent the ripple +/- about the
> average (DC) value of 12.7 V.
My 6345 has two circuits.. One for charging the battery, one supplying the coach
DC.. Unless you have a true RMS meter, it won't read the waveform mean
accurately .
After all this hubbub, I'll take my 6345 converter into work and use the storage
scope to measure then capture the reading to a BMP file.. I'll post it to my
web site and provide a link. I'm no Magnetek converter expert but I believe it's
half rectified and the peaks will be around 15 to 16 volts but I could be wrong.
I'll see soon enough.
Ben
John S
benho...@hotmail.com says...
> I have an oscilloscope too but like yours, it's buried.
Ben
$200 I ever spent for troubleshooting and general wave form analysis.
It displays the wave form/frequency/RMS Voltage for chargers,
alternators, inverters, generators, switching power supplies, control
signals, etc. Measurements can be recorded over a period of time
including Max/Min. It also has an RS-232 output to dump the data to a
laptop so you can store the wave forms as a file for future reverence
or upload or Email for viewing by others. Add a *CLAMP ON* ammeter
for about $75 that includes *DC* as well as AC current measurements
and you are in electrical troubleshooting hog heaven!
http://www.testproductsintl.com/800-368-5719/hhclamps.htm
John
bill horne
I have 9 fused outputs. 1-6 are not regulated, and 7-9 are. Fan and pump
are connected to unregulated outputs.
Everything below measured at the converter outputs, nothing turned on.
1-6 appear to be half-wave rectified, and peak at about 19 volts (6.9
VAC on DVM) whether the battery is connected or disconnected.
7-9 show no ripple with battery connected, and short duration 8V (2.46
VAC on DVM) spikes with battery disconnected.
I also have a variable transformer, so I hooked that in the AC supply.
Over 90 to 120 VAC, 1-6 varied from 9.6 to 12.8 VDC. 7-9 varied from
13.94 to 13.84 VDC, with higher voltages at 90 and 120, and the lower
voltages at 100 and 110.
David E Thom
measured on 7 - 9 ,no battery, could damage the control boards for the water
heater, refrigerator and the furnace.
ben hogland
"bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message news:3C8D165E...@rye.net...
> bill horne wrote:
> I have 9 fused outputs. 1-6 are not regulated, and 7-9 are. Fan and pump
> are connected to unregulated outputs.
>
> Everything below measured at the converter outputs, nothing turned on.
>
> 1-6 appear to be half-wave rectified, and peak at about 19 volts (6.9
> VAC on DVM) whether the battery is connected or disconnected.
>
> 7-9 show no ripple with battery connected, and short duration 8V (2.46
> VAC on DVM) spikes with battery disconnected.
>
> I also have a variable transformer, so I hooked that in the AC supply.
> Over 90 to 120 VAC, 1-6 varied from 9.6 to 12.8 VDC. 7-9 varied from
> 13.94 to 13.84 VDC, with higher voltages at 90 and 120, and the lower
> voltages at 100 and 110.
Here's what I saw..
http://www.rvlover.net/Magnetek.htm
In conclusion, the converter out has peak voltages of over 20 volts without a
battery connected. Plenty of voltage to damage things. Lead to battery has very
little noise unloaded but is at about 15 volts DC it is current limited per the
schematic..
Ben
ben hogland
> This morning I did browse there site a bit and like you said, they have no
info.
> I did notice that BR Wholesale is an authorized service center too.. This I
> didn't know until today. I emailed BR Wholesale this morning to see if they
can
> send me the specs.
I got a reply from BR Wholsale tech support.. Looks like the 7345RUT is
what I needed, not the 7345RU.. They explained it as follows:
**************************
In response to your email The 7345RU is a switching type power supply,
this unit was a single output and does not change voltage. This is a
float style
charger
voltage no load of 13.8 volts D.C.
with a AC Max. draw of 660W (5.5A)
This Unit can be ordered as a 7345RUT the T stands for Timer mode
this timer mode converter did change output voltage from 14.4 VDC to 13.2
VDC after about 12 hours and could be reset back to high output by shutting
off AC to it then restoring it.
***********************************
ben hogland
"bill horne" <red...@rye.net> wrote in message news:3C8D165E...@rye.net...
> I have 9 fused outputs. 1-6 are not regulated, and 7-9 are. Fan and pump
> are connected to unregulated outputs.
>
> Everything below measured at the converter outputs, nothing turned on.
>
> 1-6 appear to be half-wave rectified, and peak at about 19 volts (6.9
> VAC on DVM) whether the battery is connected or disconnected.
> > 7-9 show no ripple with battery connected, and short duration 8V (2.46
> > VAC on DVM) spikes with battery disconnected.
I see no or little ripple on the battery out (red lead). However, I do see a
higher then normal DC voltage.. With bat connected it goes down to 14.2. I do
have mine adjusted high on purpose and did not re-tweak the trim. Also I could
not take a screen shot of this becasue I didn't bring a battery with me to work.
> > I also have a variable transformer, so I hooked that in the AC supply.
> > Over 90 to 120 VAC, 1-6 varied from 9.6 to 12.8 VDC. 7-9 varied from
> > 13.94 to 13.84 VDC, with higher voltages at 90 and 120, and the lower
> > voltages at 100 and 110.
Interesting, I didn't have time to do this however I thought about it.. Wanted
to load the supply with a passive load to see what would happen too but didn't
get to it..I'd imagine it would just get noisier as the single capacitor would
discharge before recovery however the spikes probably wouldn't increase beyond
what was seen.
BTW, I have the schematic for this that I can email you if you're interested..
I got it today from a very nice elf <g>..
Ben
Mickey
This is mostly for Ben as I missed his reply to me.
Also spent most of my career in electronics industy but as a "threadhead"
and not a "sparky". I don't think we are in as much disagreement as our
short posting would indicate. This format is not a good forum to discuss
tech issues.
I would think the Magnetek converters (6300 series) are working as you would
expect any low cost linear power supply would work. Regulation can only
happen if AC input is high enough to keep rectified DC above regulated
voltage. If not, all bets are off. Would also expect to see voltage fall
on output if current sink can handle more current than supply can furnish.
That is why is is important to set voltage level only when current being
supplied is lower than peak available.
Since the charging circuit is a separate winding from the rectified only
primary winding, I wouldn't expect a battery connected to the charge circuit
would have a large impact on the main winding. But them I'm not a sparky.
I also wonder if magnetek has made changes over the yrs and each of us are
offering comments based experience we had from the version we have. I
thought the 7345 RU supply was a 2 stage charger with 2 distinct voltages.
Yesterday I took a look at the 7345 power supply on e-bay and noted the
sticker said output 13.8 volts and max current of 45A.