Workhorse Chassis Auto Parking Brake Defect
Scott Houston
have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
driving or while stopped.
We are in the middle of an uphill effort to get the manufacturer and dealer
of our brand new 2000 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 30 footer w/a Workhorse
chassis to take responsibility for what seems to be a dangerous defect in
the auto parking brake system.
While on our first major trip a few weeks ago (our coach had approx. 600
miles on it at the time), we were cruising down the highway at 60-65 miles
an hour when the auto parking brake applied at full force and caused a very
dangerous condition as I tried to get the coach under control and off the
road. It continued intermittently; sometimes slamming on while driving,
sometimes while parked. Sometimes it would not release when trying to shift
from park into drive or reverse. A troubleshooting nightmare that appears to
be something in the electrical control system.
After spending 4 days stranded in the coach over a weekend in a dealers
parking lot, they got the brakes to release, but it still seems to be an
intermittent problem that happened again before we could limp the coach
home.
Iąm sure all of you can imagine the terror of having a parking brake lock up
while driving on an interstate in a 30' coach. Now imagine not knowing if it
might do it again at any moment. Now imagine further what wear and tear has
occurred to the drive train and interior of my brand new coach after being
subjected to these extreme conditions. That is why I am so concerned.
To get to the point, Theresa and I would greatly appreciate hearing from
anyone who has either experienced similar problems or can shed any light on
the subject. We are simply looking for a few more "arrows in our quiver" as
we go to bat against Stoutąs RV (our dealer) and Fleetwood and Workhorse in
our effort to get a brand new coach.
Thanks in advance, and looking forward to any responses.
Scott Houston
W F Sill
>My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
>have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
>with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
>driving or while stopped.
I can help only to this extent: it is pretty well known that this
system is a dog's breakfast designed by GM and you are certainly not
the first to be bit by it. Maybe someone here knows where one would
get more info - have you tried RVCG's site (www.rv.org)?
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
"Everyone is entitled to his own views. No one
is entitled to his own facts." J. Schlesinger
Greg_E
new why don't they just take it to a Workhorse dealer (unless the RV
dealer in question is one) and get it fixed?
At the very end of the posting I found my answer. They don't want it
fixed, they want a brand new coach!! This approach will partically
guarantee that you will come away disappointed and disheartened. While
I am sympathetic to anyone with warranty problems, I continue to be
amazed at the number of people who jump all the way to "buy it back" or
"give me a brand new coach" as soon as they have problems.
Flame suit on!
Greg E
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AJKing554
>We are in the middle of an uphill effort to get the manufacturer and dealer
>of our brand new 2000 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 30 footer w/a Workhorse
>chassis to take responsibility for what seems to be a dangerous defect in
>the auto parking brake system.
Have you contacted Workhorse directly? Go to www.workhorsecc.com and look up
the regional service manager for your area. Workhorse says that they will be
more responsive to customers than GM was and I would be very interested to see
if that turns out to be true in reality.
>It continued intermittently; sometimes slamming on while driving,
>sometimes while parked.
The auto park brake is automatically applied when parked, so I don't how it
could "slam on" while parked.
> We are simply looking for a few more "arrows in our quiver" as
>we go to bat against Stout零 RV (our dealer) and Fleetwood and Workhorse in
>our effort to get a brand new coach.
You probably don't have a leg to stand on in this regard. Unless the dealer
fails to repair it to the point of triggering a lemon law buy-back I doubt you
will be successful in getting Fleetwood to buy it back voluntarily. There are
people out there who have had literally hundreds of serious coach problems
without this occurring.
Alan
ajki...@aol.com
W F Sill
>As I was reading the original post I was wondering, since it's brand
>new why don't they just take it to a Workhorse dealer (unless the RV
>dealer in question is one) and get it fixed?
>
>At the very end of the posting I found my answer. They don't want it
>fixed, they want a brand new coach!! This approach will partically
>guarantee that you will come away disappointed and disheartened. While
>I am sympathetic to anyone with warranty problems, I continue to be
>amazed at the number of people who jump all the way to "buy it back" or
>"give me a brand new coach" as soon as they have problems.
Greg, count me in the same corner.
Certainly some customers get treated very badly by dealers, and this
particular problem certainly would put gray hairs on a guy with a
toupee. . . but demanding a buy-back is pretty far out.
Certainly a buyer should expect (and get) prompt correction of a
serious problem like that. I'm a GM buyer but having studied that
parking brake design with my local GM mechanic (who was trying to fix
hios boss' MH!!) I am very unimpressed to put it mildly. IMO there is
no rational excuse for such complexity and unreliability. And rv
build quality is generally poor, justifying a lot of flak from people
who think their big bucks SHOULD buy a piece that won't self-destruct
before they finish their first trip.
Having said that, the problem certainly is and should be repairable,
and nobody's perfect - not even my wife. Looking through the "Court
of Public Opinion" section on the RVCG's web site (www.rv.org) is an
eye opener. Some people have unrealistic expectations (putting it
mildly). Like a few of our nitpicking cyberspace hecklers, they would
find fault with the color of the ink on their lottery winnings. Anyone
who can't cope with a few loose screws on an rv probably brought a few
to the deal. It's a fact of life that you do not get Lexus quality
in a Winnebago. I'm sorry it ain't that way, but I am also sorry my
fellow citizens are so brainless they re-elected Bill Clinton too.
Some things you can't fix and might as well live with them.
Bottom line: read the RATINGS BOOK before buying, so you can know what
to look for. And try to buy from a dealer with a proven record of
taking care of the customer. When you do have a problem, be firm but
reasonable. It is NOT reasonable IMO to demand a new coach because
the parking brake doesn't work right.
Chris Bryant
<B57575D1.9539%scotth...@home.com>,Scott Houston wrote:
>My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
>have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
>with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
>driving or while stopped.
<<..>>
Living in a small town, I have two customers that have had
this happen. One was able to crawl under the rig, and disable the
parking brake himself. The other was driving at the time- the park
brake engaged, exploded, the rig caught on fire, he suffered a heart
attack, and they are still fighting with various people on the
settlement (basically just paying off the rig).
--
Chris Bryant
Bryant RV Services- DeLand, Florida mailto:brya...@totcon.com
On RVing- TV about RVs, by RVers
charles
listed in it. If you get the run around ask for Michel Madill.
Also there is a section there about reporting safety defects.
You should follow that also. I agree with those who posted you
should forget about returning the motor home etc. That just
isn't gonna happen at this point. You are only making the
dealer etc draw back. Smile but be firm. You want the problem
fixed period. I can't believe its not fixable and I do not know
of any motor home by any mfg that doesn't or hasn't had bugs in
it. A friend of mine bought a $300,000.00 rig hell it had as
many if not more bugs than my $80,000.00 rig. Of course with
safety is involved its needs fixed now.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Hugh
manufacturer.
Hugh
W F Sill wrote:
>
> Not long ago, Greg_E wrote:
>
snipped
Pete Dumbleton
(NTSB), and see if they have had other complaints. I sympathize with your
problem, but more selfishly, I don't want vehicles with serious flaws like
that sharing the road with me!
What do they look like from behind, besides no brake lites and smoking
tires? Good thing it doesn't shift it into "Park" and lock the steering
for you when it sets the brakes...
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, W F Sill wrote:
> Not long ago, Scott Houston <scotth...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
> >have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
> >with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
> >driving or while stopped.
>
Scott Houston
bad, I haven't been a customer of this industry long enough to know what is
considered normal vs. egregious as far as customer service goes. I think my
"expectations curve" is slipping downward in a hurry, but that is why I
posted to begin with, to find out from all of you who have been at it much
longer than I.
A few responses to the responses:
> From: Greg_E <greg_E99...@hotmail.com.invalid>
> As I was reading the original post I was wondering, since it's brand
> new why don't they just take it to a Workhorse dealer (unless the RV
> dealer in question is one) and get it fixed?
We got towed 70 miles to a Workhorse dealer after the first highway
occurrence, spent 3 days in their parking lot, and after believing they got
it fixed, had the brake come back on another 40-50 miles down the road in
another harrowing near miss.
We finally got it limped back to our dealer at home, who is also a Workhorse
dealer and they are still trying to find the problem. Again, it is a
troubleshooting nightmare because it is so intermittent, and they can't get
it to repeat the problem consistently. The only test is to take it back out
on the highway and have another potentially fatal episode.
> From: ajki...@aol.com (AJKing554)
> Have you contacted Workhorse directly? Go to www.workhorsecc.com and look up
> the regional service manager for your area. Workhorse says that they will be
> more responsive to customers than GM was and I would be very interested to see
> if that turns out to be true in reality.
I contacted Workhorse by cell phone from the side of the highway on the
first episode. Their tech guys were unable to give me any help over the
phone. The Workhorse dealer I got towed to spent quite a bit of time on the
phone with them trying to figure out the problem, as they didn't have a clue
in the shop. Now my dealer has been in close contact with them doing exactly
the same thing. They are developing quite a database on my history and have
been involved from the very start.
>The auto park brake is automatically applied when parked, so I don't how it
>could "slam on" while parked.
Pardon the confusion.
a) Sometimes it came on and stuck on while driving.
b) other times it would not release when I shifted from park (when it had
not been stuck "on" previous to going into park).
Needless to say "b" is no big deal vs. the clean out your drawers experience
of "a" ...
> From: Chris Bryant <brya...@totcon.com>
>Living in a small town, I have two customers that have had
>this happen. One was able to crawl under the rig, and disable the
>parking brake himself.
Oh, how I would have loved to have been able to disable the entire parking
brake mechanism. However, the workhorse tech guys VERY clearly explained how
wrong and dangerous that would have been as there is no difference between
Park and Neutral as far as the transmission's concerned on this chassis.
Without that auto parking brake, you will roll just like you're in Neutral
when you're in Park. Since I didn't think I was quick enough to stop, hop
out the side door and chock the wheels before the coach rolled into
something it shouldn't have, I ruled out that option.
>The other was driving at the time- the park
>brake engaged, exploded, the rig caught on fire, he suffered a heart
>attack, and they are still fighting with various people on the
>settlement (basically just paying off the rig).
Thanks. Even I appreciate a little humor after all of my whining ;-)
(you were making that up, right?)
> From: charles <cedykes...@juno.com.invalid>
> Get your manual on the chassis and find the toll free numbers
> listed in it. If you get the run around ask for Michel Madill.
Workhorse knows all about us (see above). I sure appreciate the name,
though.
> From: Hugh <hug...@dreamscape.net>
> I go with you guy's also. First you have to work with the dealer and
> manufacturer.
Point very well taken, and that is exactly the route I'm going. I'm just
concerned as hell about them ever really tracking down what is causing the
brake problem. My other fear is what this trauma has done to other systems
in the coach and in particular, the drivetrain.
I had a good analogy for the service mgr. working on it when he told me they
were pretty sure they got it solved the first time. I told him it was like
an elevator repairman saying he was "pretty sure" he got the cable snapping
problem fixed. At the worst, it happens again, you freefall a few floors, it
scares the sh_t out of you, but it shouldn't kill you. Now go enjoy your
vacation... ;-)
All teasing aside, I thank all you guys sincerely for your input. It is very
helpful.
Neon John
Scott Houston wrote:
>
> I honestly mean this when I say thanks for the replies everyone. Good or
> bad, I haven't been a customer of this industry long enough to know what is
> considered normal vs. egregious as far as customer service goes. I think my
> "expectations curve" is slipping downward in a hurry, but that is why I
> posted to begin with, to find out from all of you who have been at it much
> longer than I.
I think that your expectations curve is far too high. Let's put
this in perspective. Your average tin-can intermediate car with a
few options and all the safety- and eco-nazi mandated equipment
costs, what, $30k? More than that for a pickup truck. These
vehicles come with an assortment of problems, though not as bad as
in the past. Now consider the motorhome. It's many times a big,
many times as complicated and many times as complicated, is
hand-built by cottage industries and yet, those of us who aren't
rock stars rarely pay much over $100k for the rig. Something's
gotta give. It's invariably build quality. An RV maker simply
can't invest in all the automation and quality the car makers can
when it can be amortized over at most, a few thousand units. As an
RV owner, you do one of three things: You learn to accept this and
enjoy the good stuff, you get pissed off and get out of RV'ing or
you become an angry crusader who will remain unhappy and who will
muck it up for everyone else. Look at your car or truck, observe
all the custom-made parts, particularly the heavy forged or cast
parts and contemplate what a motorhome would cost if it had to be
built to that same level of quality. I know I couldn't afford one.
The second thing you need to know is that unless you have or acquire
the ability to fix things, you're going to be very unhappy in a
consumer-grade RV. That's just the way it is. You don't need to be
able to overhaul an engine or change out an axle but you do need to
be able to troubleshoot electrical, mechanical and plumbing items.
If you can't or won't do this, you will either be unhappy or you'll
need to buy a very high end unit.
> We got towed 70 miles to a Workhorse dealer after the first highway
> occurrence, spent 3 days in their parking lot, and after believing they got
> it fixed, had the brake come back on another 40-50 miles down the road in
> another harrowing near miss.
>
> We finally got it limped back to our dealer at home, who is also a Workhorse
> dealer and they are still trying to find the problem. Again, it is a
> troubleshooting nightmare because it is so intermittent, and they can't get
> it to repeat the problem consistently. The only test is to take it back out
> on the highway and have another potentially fatal episode.
You're likely going to be frustrated with dealer service.
Unfortunately if the diagnostic computer can't pick out the problem
and changing out black boxes can't solve the problem, most dealer
mechanics can't fix it. They're set up to do parts changeouts and
charging by the flatrate book. Yeah, I'm cynical but I have
experience. And I think about the local Chrysler dealer's lead
mechanic holding his previous position as a cook in my
restaurant....
You're probably going to have to help them out by doing some
troubleshooting of your own and keeping careful records of what
you've done. Or find an independent mechanic who can.
> >The auto park brake is automatically applied when parked, so I don't how it
> >could "slam on" while parked.
>
> Pardon the confusion.
> a) Sometimes it came on and stuck on while driving.
> b) other times it would not release when I shifted from park (when it had
> not been stuck "on" previous to going into park).
This is a very important clue. Now I don't know anything about the
Workhorse chassis but I am a good diagnostician. This tells me that
something is wrong in whatever component detects when the
transmission is in "park". Probably a switch on the transmission.
Or it could very well be a chaffed wire that occasionally hits
against ground and activates the circuit. If that's the case, the
dealer will likely NEVER find it. If I owned the rig, I'd buy a
factory service manual and start noodling things out using the
classic divide and conquer process. The simplest thing you could do
is to find where this signal originates and hook a test light to it
so that you can watch it. If it's a chaffed wire, it's likely that
you'll see flickers of contact before it makes a good enough
connection to activate the brake. If you can catch the rig when the
malfunction is stable (not intermittent), then the problem becomes
easy to find.
>
> Needless to say "b" is no big deal vs. the clean out your drawers experience
> of "a" ...
>
> > From: Chris Bryant <brya...@totcon.com>
> >Living in a small town, I have two customers that have had
> >this happen. One was able to crawl under the rig, and disable the
> >parking brake himself.
>
> Oh, how I would have loved to have been able to disable the entire parking
> brake mechanism. However, the workhorse tech guys VERY clearly explained how
> wrong and dangerous that would have been as there is no difference between
> Park and Neutral as far as the transmission's concerned on this chassis.
> Without that auto parking brake, you will roll just like you're in Neutral
> when you're in Park. Since I didn't think I was quick enough to stop, hop
> out the side door and chock the wheels before the coach rolled into
> something it shouldn't have, I ruled out that option.
I wouldn't. What I'd do is find out where the brake activates,
remove the wire and then hook up a temporary switch that will
positively interrupt the signal. If it's a solenoid, my temporary
switch would hook to the solenoid terminal and the other side would
hook to the wire I removed. This way, when the switch is open,
there is no possible way for the brake to activate. When it's
closed, the brake works normally. You drive with the switch open and
close it before parking. I would ALSO equip the switch with a light
that would monitor the wire coming to the solenoid. That way, you
can tell when the system is malfunctioning. Once it does, then you
can stop at your leisure and troubleshoot.
>
> >The other was driving at the time- the park
> >brake engaged, exploded, the rig caught on fire, he suffered a heart
> >attack, and they are still fighting with various people on the
> >settlement (basically just paying off the rig).
>
> Thanks. Even I appreciate a little humor after all of my whining ;-)
> (you were making that up, right?)
I suspect that he wasn't. Chris usually doesn't use dry wit.
>
> > From: charles <cedykes...@juno.com.invalid>
> > Get your manual on the chassis and find the toll free numbers
> > listed in it. If you get the run around ask for Michel Madill.
>
> Workhorse knows all about us (see above). I sure appreciate the name,
> though.
>
> > From: Hugh <hug...@dreamscape.net>
> > I go with you guy's also. First you have to work with the dealer and
> > manufacturer.
>
> Point very well taken, and that is exactly the route I'm going. I'm just
> concerned as hell about them ever really tracking down what is causing the
> brake problem. My other fear is what this trauma has done to other systems
> in the coach and in particular, the drivetrain.
Trauma? C'mon guy, get real. Nothing more or less than locking up
the brakes.
Look, you can either act like some dumbass consumer who raises hell
up up the ladder, makes a lot of people unhappy (including yourself)
and in the end not be satisfied or you can take primary
responsibility for locating the fault and then tell the dealer's
parts changer what to fix. An intermittent problem like this is any
mechanic's nightmare. You simply can't pull in and say "fix it".
There's no magic wand to wave to somehow reveal "it" to them. You
have to help. Like I said before, I'd render the system incapable
of locking the brakes at speed with the switch and then I'd learn
about the system and start trying to collect data with which to
isolate the problem. If you really can't do any diagnostics, then
I'd suggest finding an independent mechanic and use him as a
consultant. An independent is much more flexible than a dealership
who has to operate within the mfr's rules. It is very likely that
the mfr can be persuaded to pay the consultant's fee once he finds
the problem.
John
--
John De Armond
johngd...@bellsouth.net
http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/
Neon John's Custom Neon
Cleveland, TN
"Bendin' Glass 'n Passin' Gas"
Scott Houston
Thanks much for the troubleshooting ideas. I had thought of the switch, but
the switch AND light to see when it's occurring and trying to nail down
what's causing it without it actually engaging is a great idea.
Regarding my ability to fix things, I am moderately handy, just not in high
end electro-mechanical computer aided truck braking systems :-) My specialty
is computer code. Anything you ever need to know about debugging object
oriented software code, just give me a call.
>> My other fear is what this trauma has done to other systems
>> in the coach and in particular, the drivetrain.
>Trauma? C'mon guy, get real. Nothing more or less than locking up
>the brakes.
Maybe "trauma" is too strong a word, but it brings up a very real question
for all of you. Because that brake is sitting right on the ass end of the
transmission (it actually brakes the driveshaft, not the wheels) is it not
realistic to think that some pretty heavy wear and tear can be expected
somewhere on the drivetrain? That driveshaft and all it's linkages (from the
transmission to where it connects to the back end) would never normally go
from however many RPM's it is spinning going down the highway to ZERO in an
instant. It seems like that could wreak some serious stress on any
mechanical system connected to it. Trust me, I'm hoping you can teach me why
that is incorrect thinking. I truly want to believe that it didn't affect
anything else...
As a final thought on your well stated comments about consumer level RV's
just not being economically able to build in more quality . . . When things
went wrong in my previously owned 25 year old RV, I fully expected to
constantly be having to fix things and dealing with glitches and putting on
my "MacGyver" hat. I knew full well that that was just "part of the
exercise" and took it all in full stride. I guess I just expect, at a
minimum, for a brand new unit (or anything else I buy new for that matter)
to operate safely with some degree of reliability.
To not cloud the issue in this news thread, until now I did not mention the
21 item work order that also is being addressed on the coachbuilding side of
things with my coach. A "shakedown cruise" on a new unit is fully expected
to turn up a few glitches and I fully expected that to be the case. In no
way was I expecting or assuming perfection in a new unit. But, 21 fairly
serious coach defects, plus this trip halting brake problem seems to be a
bit much. Am I just being naive? I think I have a right to be a bit honked
off.
Serious thanks again to your troubleshooting advice, I fully intend to
suggest your ideas to my service manager.
Bruce Thiel
> As a final thought on your well stated comments about consumer level RV's
> just not being economically able to build in more quality . . . When things
> went wrong in my previously owned 25 year old RV, I fully expected to
> constantly be having to fix things and dealing with glitches and putting on
> my "MacGyver" hat. I knew full well that that was just "part of the
> exercise" and took it all in full stride. I guess I just expect, at a
> minimum, for a brand new unit (or anything else I buy new for that matter)
> to operate safely with some degree of reliability.
>
> To not cloud the issue in this news thread, until now I did not mention the
> 21 item work order that also is being addressed on the coachbuilding side of
> things with my coach. A "shakedown cruise" on a new unit is fully expected
> to turn up a few glitches and I fully expected that to be the case. In no
> way was I expecting or assuming perfection in a new unit. But, 21 fairly
> serious coach defects, plus this trip halting brake problem seems to be a
> bit much. Am I just being naive? I think I have a right to be a bit honked
> off.
>
I had the same thinking, new coach = more reliable for first several
years...
Like with yours, several lists, all taken care of.. Even a few after
the warrenty expired.. But now 26 months after delivery with 14,000
miles steal belts are showing on the front tires... So far the only
explanation is that it was not alined after it was built.. The only
thing the dealer has said was it was my responsibility to have it alined
after 3,500 miles and loaded.. To make things even more fun, my brother
inlaw
has it on vacation over 2,000 miles away out in the middle of Wyoming...
One thing you may want to pay attention to is if your tires were flat
spotted. Is there a viberation now that was not there before???
Bruce Thiel...
Jinks
<scotth...@home.com> wrote:
>My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
>have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
>with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
>driving or while stopped.
<snip>
>Thanks in advance, and looking forward to any responses.
>Scott Houston
Scott,
Our rig is not on a Workhorse chassis, but rather the Chevy
P30 chassis, so I can't guarantee how similar the systems are, but
I'll pitch in what experience I have.
The Chevy version works from the power steering reservoir,
using the power steering fluid for, of course, power steering, power
brake boost, & parking brake control. All this is done through a
cluster of valves mounted on the left frame. One of the lines from
the cluster of valves leads to a slave cylinder mounted on the other
side of the rig.
The park brake is applied by *removing* hydraulic pressure
from the slave cylinder. That allows a spring to pull a cable that
joins the cable running from the foot lever in the cockpit. The brake
is a drum brake mounted on the drive shaft just aft of the
transmission, & is mechanically operated.
Ours blew a seal & dumped all the power steering fluid on our
first trip. We got temporary repairs under warranty, & were able to
finish the trip. We later had a G.M. dealer service (& we thought
repair) the whole system. It had some noise when the brakes were
applied (remember, the same system controls the power brake boost), &
in the power steering, but the service people told us that was "normal
& acceptable".
Last October I again lost all the power steering fluid about
three miles from home. Fortunately, my wife was following me in her
car. I sent her for *lots* more fluid, & managed to limp on to the
house, leaving a trail of fluid behind me.
The problem was the sender switch for the light on the dash.
It sprung a leak, & emptied the system. This time I repaired it
myself, & bled the system correctly. Not only is the noise during
breaking & steering gone, but all three systems work better than they
ever have.
I now carry a plug that will fit the mounting for that switch,
& won't hesitate a second to remove the cable from the slave cylinder
to the foot lever cable. That would disable the automatic feature of
the park brake, but leave the manual portion working just fine. You
would only have to remember to *always* set the brake manually when
you stop. That should be a habit anyway.
As for damage to your drive line, I doubt there's much that's
been hurt. I would ask the service department to remove the drum, &
check both the drum, & the brake shoes, since they took quite a load,
but everything else will probably be alright.
Jinks ('86fxrs,'93fxrs-c)
#64
Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished"
Chris Bryant
<B576F350.9AA5%scotth...@home.com>,Scott Houston wrote:
<<..>>
>> From: Chris Bryant <brya...@totcon.com>
>>Living in a small town, I have two customers that have had
>>this happen. One was able to crawl under the rig, and disable the
>>parking brake himself.
>
>Oh, how I would have loved to have been able to disable the entire parking
>brake mechanism. However, the workhorse tech guys VERY clearly explained how
>wrong and dangerous that would have been as there is no difference between
>Park and Neutral as far as the transmission's concerned on this chassis.
>Without that auto parking brake, you will roll just like you're in Neutral
>when you're in Park. Since I didn't think I was quick enough to stop, hop
>out the side door and chock the wheels before the coach rolled into
>something it shouldn't have, I ruled out that option.
>
>>The other was driving at the time- the park
>>brake engaged, exploded, the rig caught on fire, he suffered a heart
>>attack, and they are still fighting with various people on the
>>settlement (basically just paying off the rig).
>
>Thanks. Even I appreciate a little humor after all of my whining ;-)
>(you were making that up, right?)
>
<<..>>
I have to give a qualifier- both of these rigs were on Chevy
chassis- right before Workhorse took over.
As such- Jinks' post spells it out- plus the fact that the
customer who disabled the "auto" feature had to go to 4 different
dealers before he found one that even knew that there was such a
device on the chassis.
And actually, the other story is true- Chevy is saying that
their specs call for a metal "blast shield" above the driveline brake,
so if it disintegrates. the pieces will be contained, and that the
coach manufacturer (National) is responsible.
Ron Kummer
We too have a 2000 Fleetwood with the Workhorse chassis. Of course I have
not have any of the problems you describe, as a matter of fact we have been
very fortunate to not have any problems up to this point ( 5200 miles
worth).
I'm a little confused with what you stated concerning getting the problem
resolved, with any 2000 you get free towing for the first year, was this
towed to a dealer for repairs... Or did you continue to drive it under this
condition? Also, I spoke with the folks at Workhorse numerous times prior
to making our decision to go with workhorse and was very impressed with the
professionalism they exhibited. Are they refusing to acknowledge that there
is a problem or just can't get it to fail? I also feel your going to be
beating a "dead horse" in an attempt to have the motorhome replaced.
Of course I don't understand Mr. sills comments, but then I usually don't
understand his objectives in relation to this newsgroup.
I wish you luck and hope you'll post the resolution.
Ron K.
Scott Houston <scotth...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B57575D1.9539%scotth...@home.com...
> My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
> have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any
problems
> with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently
while
> driving or while stopped.
>
> We are in the middle of an uphill effort to get the manufacturer and
dealer
> of our brand new 2000 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 30 footer w/a Workhorse
> chassis to take responsibility for what seems to be a dangerous defect in
> the auto parking brake system.
>
> While on our first major trip a few weeks ago (our coach had approx. 600
> miles on it at the time), we were cruising down the highway at 60-65 miles
> an hour when the auto parking brake applied at full force and caused a
very
> dangerous condition as I tried to get the coach under control and off the
> road. It continued intermittently; sometimes slamming on while driving,
> sometimes while parked. Sometimes it would not release when trying to
shift
> from park into drive or reverse. A troubleshooting nightmare that appears
to
> be something in the electrical control system.
>
> After spending 4 days stranded in the coach over a weekend in a dealers
> parking lot, they got the brakes to release, but it still seems to be an
> intermittent problem that happened again before we could limp the coach
> home.
>
> I雋 sure all of you can imagine the terror of having a parking brake lock
up
> while driving on an interstate in a 30' coach. Now imagine not knowing if
it
> might do it again at any moment. Now imagine further what wear and tear
has
> occurred to the drive train and interior of my brand new coach after being
> subjected to these extreme conditions. That is why I am so concerned.
>
> To get to the point, Theresa and I would greatly appreciate hearing from
> anyone who has either experienced similar problems or can shed any light
on
> the subject. We are simply looking for a few more "arrows in our quiver"
as
> we go to bat against Stout零 RV (our dealer) and Fleetwood and Workhorse
in
> our effort to get a brand new coach.
>
GBinNC
><...> think about what happens with an ordinary automatic
>transmission if you shift into park at speed. It makes a horrible
>clicking sound but does not actually lock until the vehicle is going
>slowly anough for the stop to not be a hazard.
Hey Nick,
I'm really curious as to how you know this. Is there a story here just
waiting to be told? <g>
GB in NC
George E. Cawthon
Nick Simicich wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:12:28 GMT, Scott Houston
> <scotth...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Maybe "trauma" is too strong a word, but it brings up a very real question
> >for all of you. Because that brake is sitting right on the ass end of the
> >transmission (it actually brakes the driveshaft, not the wheels) is it not
> >realistic to think that some pretty heavy wear and tear can be expected
> >somewhere on the drivetrain?
>
> Seems to me that Chrysler used this system for their parking brake
> (not automatically applied) on their big cars from the late 50's? I
> remember seeing one where there was an extra brake drum and shoes on
> the driveshaft at the rear of the transmission. They gave it up
> because it was more complicated than then second brake activation bit
> was and because it did not work as well as an ordinary parking brake.
> Imagine the vehicle in a position where because of ice or mud (or air)
> one rear wheel is tractionless whereas the other wheel has some
> traction. If the brake is on the driveshaft, the vehicle can still
> roll (if the wheen without traction can spin the wrong way) whereas
> with independent rear wheel brakes the vehicle won't move unless both
> rear wheels can slide.
My Motors says 57-62, but I am sure my 53 Desoto had this type of
parking brake. I could imagine a problem with ice on one wheel causing a
problem. In fact, it worked better than any other parking brake I've
had. Never slipped and work eqally in forward and reverse. Many of the
regular parking brakes don't do well in reverse.
Hugh
and probably before.
Hugh
Nick Simicich wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:12:28 GMT, Scott Houston
> <scotth...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >snipped
>
> Seems to me that Chrysler used this system for their parking brake
> (not automatically applied) on their big cars from the late 50's? I
> remember seeing one where there was an extra brake drum and shoes on
> the driveshaft at the rear of the transmission. They gave it up
> because it was more complicated than then second brake activation bit
> was and because it did not work as well as an ordinary parking brake.
> Imagine the vehicle in a position where because of ice or mud (or air)
> one rear wheel is tractionless whereas the other wheel has some
> traction. If the brake is on the driveshaft, the vehicle can still
> roll (if the wheen without traction can spin the wrong way) whereas
> with independent rear wheel brakes the vehicle won't move unless both
> rear wheels can slide.
>
> Finally, think about what happens with an ordinary automatic
> transmission if you shift into park at speed. It makes a horrible
> clicking sound but does not actually lock until the vehicle is going
> slowly anough for the stop to not be a hazard. The fact that this
> setup will lock at speed at all would be rather surprising to me, and
> it seems to be significantly more dangerous than the standard setup.
George E. Cawthon
this type on the drive shaft of an early car, early or late teens. It
was THE brake, not just the parking brake.
Hugh wrote:
>
> I think you'll find it goes back further than that. At least to the 30's
> and probably before.
> Hugh
>
> Nick Simicich wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:12:28 GMT, Scott Houston
> > <scotth...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > >snipped
> >
> > Seems to me that Chrysler used this system for their parking brake
> > (not automatically applied) on their big cars from the late 50's? I
> > remember seeing one where there was an extra brake drum and shoes on
> > the driveshaft at the rear of the transmission. ((snipped))
Pete Dumbleton
automatic because she was driving a friend's car when the friend and his
friends were not safe to drive. Somehow, somebody kicked the console
shifter into park and they left transmission pieces on the highway...
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, GBinNC wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2000 12:32:35 EDT, Nick Simicich <n...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> ><...> think about what happens with an ordinary automatic
> >transmission if you shift into park at speed. It makes a horrible
> >clicking sound but does not actually lock until the vehicle is going
> >slowly anough for the stop to not be a hazard.
>
GBinNC
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:44:31 GMT, GBi...@yahoooo.com (GBinNC) wrote:
>
>>On 26 Jun 2000 12:32:35 EDT, Nick Simicich <n...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>><...> think about what happens with an ordinary automatic
>>>transmission if you shift into park at speed. It makes a horrible
>>>clicking sound but does not actually lock until the vehicle is going
>>>slowly anough for the stop to not be a hazard.
>>Hey Nick,
>>
>>I'm really curious as to how you know this. Is there a story here just
>>waiting to be told? <g>
>It has to do with an ex-wife and a rental car......
Okay, 'nuff said...
GB in NC
Nancy Lawyer
thru my *very* recent experience and having to learn the hard way how they
work, you got a couple of really good tips from other folks. In my case, it
went out driving down the road, and except for the stink of burning
transmission fluid being sprayed all over the exhaust pipe, we hardly
noticed it. As I didn't have a clue what was wrong, I should have stopped
sooner, but there was no where to pull over. There was no drag on the RV,
the engine and transmission were running fine, temp, oil pressure, etc.
All that brake is going to do, coming on at 40-50mph, is chew up the brake
pads *as long as* you have pads left. If it gets down to the rivets, your
going to hear it, and had better get stopped real quick The drum will get
*very* hot and I would hate to think what could happen. I would definitely
vote for a steel plate above it. I seriously doubt that any harm could be
done to the drivetrain as long as it isn't metal on metal and the drum
doesn't come apart. As there is a huge spline that goes into the
transmission, and a huge hunk of metal that holds the first u-joint to your
drive shaft, with the drum in-between, all bolted together, that is a good
chunk of your drivetrain you don't want to loose.
John's ideas about the switch and light are probably what you need to start
with, or have the service folks do it if they can't find the problem, they
should at least be willing to help you, help them, isolate it. You should
*definitely* get them to run a hot wire and switch setup to the main
solenoid, so that if it does go off while your driving (brake engages), you
can quickly turn it back on with the hot switch. Something is causing the
system to let the hydraulic system release the pressure it normally keeps on
the system, which keeps the brake disengaged.
Jinks did a good job of telling you how it works. My 94 Pace is a bit
different in that it has the whole system underneath behind the door step.
It has it's own reservoir in a very heavy metal box (for protection), the
motor, switches and solenoids are all there. As Jinks said, the system
releases the brake by pumping up pressure and pulling a very stout cable
which pulls the brake shoes *away* from the drum. There are very stout
springs behind the brake, mounted on the side of the transmission, that are
pulling the brake on. As long as the system has fluid and is sealed, it
will win over the springs. If a solenoid blows, it looses pressure, and the
springs win. If as is probably your case, something drops power to the
solenoid which it needs to keep the pressure on, the springs win again. As
long as the fluid level is up and your not leaking any, something is cutting
the power that keeps the system pressurized. It is probably in the park
switch, a loose connection on the solenoids, or a short somewhere.
Good luck, and hope we have helped some...sorry this is so wordy. Now,
about those other 21 problems....
"Scott Houston" <scotth...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B576F350.9AA5%scotth...@home.com...
> I honestly mean this when I say thanks for the replies everyone. Good or
> bad, I haven't been a customer of this industry long enough to know what
is
> considered normal vs. egregious as far as customer service goes. I think
my
> "expectations curve" is slipping downward in a hurry, but that is why I
> posted to begin with, to find out from all of you who have been at it much
> longer than I.
>
> A few responses to the responses:
>
> > From: Greg_E <greg_E99...@hotmail.com.invalid>
> > As I was reading the original post I was wondering, since it's brand
> > new why don't they just take it to a Workhorse dealer (unless the RV
> > dealer in question is one) and get it fixed?
>
> We got towed 70 miles to a Workhorse dealer after the first highway
> occurrence, spent 3 days in their parking lot, and after believing they
got
> it fixed, had the brake come back on another 40-50 miles down the road in
> another harrowing near miss.
>
> We finally got it limped back to our dealer at home, who is also a
Workhorse
> dealer and they are still trying to find the problem. Again, it is a
> troubleshooting nightmare because it is so intermittent, and they can't
get
> it to repeat the problem consistently. The only test is to take it back
out
> on the highway and have another potentially fatal episode.
>
> > From: ajki...@aol.com (AJKing554)
> > Have you contacted Workhorse directly? Go to www.workhorsecc.com and
look up
> > the regional service manager for your area. Workhorse says that they
will be
> > more responsive to customers than GM was and I would be very interested
to see
> > if that turns out to be true in reality.
>
> I contacted Workhorse by cell phone from the side of the highway on the
> first episode. Their tech guys were unable to give me any help over the
> phone. The Workhorse dealer I got towed to spent quite a bit of time on
the
> phone with them trying to figure out the problem, as they didn't have a
clue
> in the shop. Now my dealer has been in close contact with them doing
exactly
> the same thing. They are developing quite a database on my history and
have
> been involved from the very start.
>
> >The auto park brake is automatically applied when parked, so I don't how
it
> >could "slam on" while parked.
>
> Pardon the confusion.
> a) Sometimes it came on and stuck on while driving.
> b) other times it would not release when I shifted from park (when it had
> not been stuck "on" previous to going into park).
>
> Needless to say "b" is no big deal vs. the clean out your drawers
experience
> of "a" ...
>
> > From: Chris Bryant <brya...@totcon.com>
> >Living in a small town, I have two customers that have had
> >this happen. One was able to crawl under the rig, and disable the
> >parking brake himself.
>
> Oh, how I would have loved to have been able to disable the entire parking
> brake mechanism. However, the workhorse tech guys VERY clearly explained
how
> wrong and dangerous that would have been as there is no difference between
> Park and Neutral as far as the transmission's concerned on this chassis.
> Without that auto parking brake, you will roll just like you're in Neutral
> when you're in Park. Since I didn't think I was quick enough to stop, hop
> out the side door and chock the wheels before the coach rolled into
> something it shouldn't have, I ruled out that option.
>
> >The other was driving at the time- the park
> >brake engaged, exploded, the rig caught on fire, he suffered a heart
> >attack, and they are still fighting with various people on the
> >settlement (basically just paying off the rig).
>
> Thanks. Even I appreciate a little humor after all of my whining ;-)
> (you were making that up, right?)
>
> > From: charles <cedykes...@juno.com.invalid>
> > Get your manual on the chassis and find the toll free numbers
> > listed in it. If you get the run around ask for Michel Madill.
>
> Workhorse knows all about us (see above). I sure appreciate the name,
> though.
>
> > From: Hugh <hug...@dreamscape.net>
> > I go with you guy's also. First you have to work with the dealer and
> > manufacturer.
>
> Point very well taken, and that is exactly the route I'm going. I'm just
> concerned as hell about them ever really tracking down what is causing the
> brake problem. My other fear is what this trauma has done to other systems
> in the coach and in particular, the drivetrain.
>
Dan Lawyer
"Nancy Lawyer" <nla...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:EHP65.5$T%3....@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> I got in on this conversation a bit late, but from what I know about them
> thru my *very* recent experience and having to learn the hard way how they
> work, you got a couple of really good tips from other folks.
<<snip>>
Sorry, folks....I accidentally used my wife's email for this post - oops!
Now she's embarrassed, and I'm in trouble.
Regards,
Dan
LOCOMOTIVE2506
discussion.
core...@gmail.com
> My wife and I are desperately seeking information from any RV owners who
> have experienced trouble with workhorse chassis. In particular, any problems
> with the auto parking brake coming on unexpectedly and intermittently while
> driving or while stopped.
>
> We are in the middle of an uphill effort to get the manufacturer and dealer
> of our brand new 2000 Fleetwood Southwind Storm 30 footer w/a Workhorse
> chassis to take responsibility for what seems to be a dangerous defect in
> the auto parking brake system.
>
> While on our first major trip a few weeks ago (our coach had approx. 600
> miles on it at the time), we were cruising down the highway at 60-65 miles
> an hour when the auto parking brake applied at full force and caused a very
> dangerous condition as I tried to get the coach under control and off the
> road. It continued intermittently; sometimes slamming on while driving,
> sometimes while parked. Sometimes it would not release when trying to shift
> from park into drive or reverse. A troubleshooting nightmare that appears to
> be something in the electrical control system.
>
> After spending 4 days stranded in the coach over a weekend in a dealers
> parking lot, they got the brakes to release, but it still seems to be an
> intermittent problem that happened again before we could limp the coach
> home.
>
> might do it again at any moment. Now imagine further what wear and tear has
> occurred to the drive train and interior of my brand new coach after being
> subjected to these extreme conditions. That is why I am so concerned.
>
> To get to the point, Theresa and I would greatly appreciate hearing from
> anyone who has either experienced similar problems or can shed any light on
> the subject. We are simply looking for a few more "arrows in our quiver" as
>
> Thanks in advance, and looking forward to any responses.
> Scott Houston
Will Sill
*grin*
Will
ron_w...@sympatico.ca
RON wOODALL woodallm...@outlook.com