OT-Who supports subsidies?

[Lone Haranguer]

Walmart shoppers.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46979745/vp/51386019#51386019

LZ

[nothermark]

Welcome to the club...

[ozm...@gmail.com]

A company with a gazzillion dollar annual payroll, that EMPLOYS people, responsible for a HUGE amount of state and local personal and corporate taxes...........

Yeah.....they cause welfare.

Where do some people learn logic ?

[nothermark]

Where do you?

One of the issues that does not make sense is that the government
started pay to subsidize low paid workers with the idea that it gets
them at least working so they could move up to something better.

The response from the business community has been to put many more
workers into that category while doing everything they can to avoid
paying taxes and paying off the Congressrats to cut taxes on the rich.
So half the country does not earn enough money to pay taxes, the rich
pay little in tax, and the number of private sector middle class jobs
is steadily shrinking. How does the math on that balance out?

[Lone Haranguer]

Some people can read but don't understand what they've read.

The mindset that people should plan their lives around welfare
benefits just because the benefits are there is like
taking a car just because the owner left the keys in it.

One is legal and one is not but both are taking advantage of a
situation just because it exists.

LZ
>

[nothermark]

Damn few people plan on having a low pay entry level job all their
life. OTOH the business world seems to have eliminated most of the
alternatives.

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| The response from the business community has been to put many more
| workers into that category while doing everything they can to avoid
| paying taxes and paying off the Congressrats to cut taxes on the

rich.....

So what would one expect? If I were paying somebody to run a company and
make $$ for stockholders I'd expect him to cut cost wherever possible. So
put the blame where it belongs - on government. Then you can join the
GOP.

BTW the government doesn't tax wealth it taxes income so it'd be hard to

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| Damn few people plan on having a low pay entry level job all their
| life. OTOH the business world seems to have eliminated most of the
| alternatives.
|

You are right but blame progress and automation, not some conspiracy.
There a just a few kinds of jobs any more - them who program the robots
who do the work and them who work for so little their job isn't worth
automating. Some day Mc'Donalds will be vending machines. What should we
do then? Tax the ever fewer workers more and more?

[ozm...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:05:34 PM UTC-5, nothermark wrote:

> Damn few people plan on having a low pay entry level job all their
>
> life.

And.......those that are worth a shit......DON'T.

The rest vote Dem.

[Bruce S]

It won't matter what happens then because long before we reach that
point the scumbag liberals will have bankrupted the country and none of
those giveaway programs will exist any more.

--
Bruce

Grammar - The difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

[nothermark]

rich as in income. Read the stats, the high income folks are few in
number and low in taxation. We both know wealth is a different issue.

[nothermark]

There are a lot more jobs but we exported them to the lowest bidder.
That is one point. The other point is that the only folks who really
pay the cost of everything are the private sector workers who make
enough to be taxed. You are smart enough to work that out.

[nothermark]

Probably wrong on both counts.

The statistics are that the number of college graduates has exceeded
the number of jobs available so they are displacing the low skill, low
pay workers at what jobs are left. That is a basic attribute of
outsourcing.

[ozm...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 6:10:58 PM UTC-5, nothermark wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), ozm...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:05:34 PM UTC-5, nothermark wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Damn few people plan on having a low pay entry level job all their
>
> >>
>
> >> life.
>
> >
>
> >And.......those that are worth a shit......DON'T.
>
> >
>
> >The rest vote Dem.
>
>
>
> Probably wrong on both counts.
>
>
>

> The statistics are that the number of college graduates...

You HAVE to stop there, until you parse out WHAT KIND OF DEGREES.

I gare-un-teeee English majors, psych/soch types, and all the finger painters will be stocking shelves on swing shift and shoveling shit.

Those folks would have been better served raising cattle, driving truck, or going to community college to learn HVAC.

So......we revert to "worth a shit", as in math, engineering, sciences, and some business management folks.

...all the rest is the usual whiny ........ whining.

[nothermark]

What part of saturated market did you miss? As far as I can tell from
what I see and hear *all* degrees. That includes computers and
Engineering. Placement number suck nationaly for the class of 2012,
Folks are wondering where they class of 2013 will end up.

In a way I agree with you about the trades but Edubusiness is focused
on sending everybody with an IQ over room temperature to college.
Translate that to they have dumbed down those jobs and cut the pay
there as much as possible.

[nothermark]

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 20:04:08 -0700, Dean <roa...@k7no.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:05:34 -0500, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
>wrote:

>You have based all of your 'employers pay low' invectives on that
>premise. All of 'he can't live on that pay' as tho no one ever gets a
>raise.

They get raises. Often quite good one's in percentage terms. $7.50
to $8 is quite a bump as a fraction... ;-)

[Will Josephs, Douglas County, OR]

On Apr 1, 6:20 pm, Loser Loonatic Loonis wrote:
> Walmart shoppers.
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46979745/vp/51386019#51386019

> LLL

More Wal-Mart whine from the king of the whine-assed crybabies. The
old loser cannot stand the successes of anyone or anything else since
it just shows him up to be the lifetime loser and dumb old pile of
shit he truly is.

HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW

[Vito00]

"Bruce S" <bruce...@gmail.com> wrote

| It won't matter what happens then because long before we reach that
| point the scumbag liberals will have bankrupted the country and none of
| those giveaway programs will exist any more.
|

A TV program noted that a climate change like ones that have happened
before could reduce the Earth's 'carrying power' to 1/3 of our current
population. Question I had is "How will we choose who goes?".

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| There are a lot more jobs but we exported them to the lowest bidder.

Thats a myth. Jobs have been exported but to machines not to lower-paid
workers.

Company A makes widjits by hand and employs 50,000 people. Another
company offers them machines capable of making the same widjits for 1/10th
the cost with only 500 people. But A cannot do that in the USA due to
gummymint regs and union pressure. So it builds a factory overseas. And
guess who laps up the cheap wijits. Why the folks getting laid off of
course .....

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| rich as in income. Read the stats, the high income folks are few in
| number and low in taxation. We both know wealth is a different issue.
|

OK, consider a farmer. He could work twice as hard to plant/harvest twice
the acreage and raise twice as much food. But the gummymints will tax
(steal) over half of his added income. so he doesnt bother .... Ditto
the miner and ... and ....

[George Anthony]

"Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:M527t.7$dZ...@fed05.iad...

Won't have to, Obama Careless is going to do that for us.

[nothermark]

Who says "we" do?

[nothermark]

You assume it goes overseas because it was prevented from building the
factory here.

I assume it goes overseas because since it will build the new
automated factory anyway it might as well get rid of all the
"expensive" US workers and train up a batch of cheap one's instead.

I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?

A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
workers probably won't.

[nothermark]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 15:49:04 -0700, Dean <roa...@k7no.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:05:39 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
>wrote:

>What do you call 'low in taxation'? Those FEW in number pay 70+% of
>all taxes. Did you hear the chap that started Facebook got taxed
>$1,000,000,000+ for his efforts? ($1Bn+) That's 'low in taxation"?
>
>I guess you never were educated in math OR logic OR what's right.

Low as a fraction of income. When 1% of the population is paid
something like 30% of the income and 50% of the population is paid 12%
of the income who is going to pay the most in dollars?

The numbers are rough but not hugely off.

[Lone Haranguer]

Keep your guns handy in case you're voted off the planet.

LZ

[Bruce S]

We don't have to choose -nature will do that for us.

--
Bruce

Thomas Jefferson - "The policy of the American government is to leave
their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of
another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

[nothermark]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:01:41 -0700, Dean <roa...@k7no.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:10:58 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
>wrote:

>If you knew WTF you were talking about, you would know that college
>grads rarely take jobs BETTER SUITED to lesser educated applicants.
>That and the fact that they will bail out as soon as a job they are
>more suited for comes along. Companys are loathe to hire people who
>will soon leave.


Tell that to the half the last years graduation class that is working
at Walmart or equivalent. Retail sales and food service are geared to
high turnovers. They do not care. Your argument works for higher
class jobs that we do not have. That is where folks are probably
getting told they are overqualified.

[nothermark]

But he gets to keep the other half. Something you blithely ignore.
That is also after paying all his expenses down to the clothes he
wears and the truck he drives if he has a good accountant.

[ozm...@gmail.com]

They will choose themselves by their actions.

Educate yourself to make wise choices .... and tell the kids.

[nothermark]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:56:59 -0700, Dean <roa...@k7no.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:16:34 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>

>The rich. They pay 70% of taxes. As a fraction, facebook cost the
>developer 30% of his income. Actually it was likely more if you then
>add in State and the rest he is accessed. How much of your income
>did you pay? How much should he pay?


When I was working close to 50% total. Your millionaire probably pays
25% in total. Maybe less if his income is mostly from investments.
His property tax and sales tax are significantly smaller fractions of
his total income than they are of mine even though his dollar value is
much higher. He also has more ways to avoid taxes. These are fairly
typical numbers for low middle income folks especially if they own
real estate.

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
|
| >"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
| >| There are a lot more jobs but we exported them to the lowest bidder.
| >
| >Thats a myth. Jobs have been exported but to machines not to
lower-paid
| >workers.
| >
| >Company A makes widjits by hand and employs 50,000 people. Another
| >company offers them machines capable of making the same widjits for
1/10th
| >the cost with only 500 people. But A cannot do that in the USA due to
| >gummymint regs and union pressure. So it builds a factory overseas.
And
| >guess who laps up the cheap wijits. Why the folks getting laid off of
| >course .....
| >
|
| You assume it goes overseas because it was prevented from building the
| factory here.

I don't assume anything I am telling you what happened to the US Auto (and
other) industries.

|
| I assume it goes overseas because since it will build the new
| automated factory anyway it might as well get rid of all the
| "expensive" US workers and train up a batch of cheap one's instead.

The expensive workers jobs are doomed anyway. Ask why Honda can build
cars in Ohio and BMW in No. Carolina but GM and Chrysler are struggling.

|
| I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
| That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?

That assumption is correct - government *can* do nothing. How do they
survive? As one wag advised "Eat your foreign car!". In the case of the
auto industry "they" are part of the problem.

|
| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
| workers probably won't.

Sell them overseas .... <g>

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

You assume boundless desire for money and beyond a point that is untrue
for most people. Let's say our farmer earns $5000/mo including the perks
you mention and lives comfortably on that. By working twice as hard he
might net another $2500. Most find it pointless.

[nothermark]

I did not assume anything. I just played with what I know of your
assumption.

I often worked 60 hours/week to make ends meet. If that is not the
problem I cannot see why any sane person would do it. That leaves me
wondering why you are complaining.

[Bruce S]

Many years ago while I was still employed I happened to read a book
about lawyers and how much they earned out of college - and more
importantly how much work they were expected to do in return for that
income. It turned out that the average "new" lawyer was expected to
work at least twice as many hours as I worked and received a salary
about twice what I made. Since I made a more than adequate income, it
was quite easy for me to determine that there was no way I would work
twice as much just for that increase in pay. Some people have more
important things to do in life than make more money.

--
Bruce

Grammar - The difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

[nothermark]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:00:32 -0400, "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

>"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
>| Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>|
>| >"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
>| >| There are a lot more jobs but we exported them to the lowest bidder.
>| >
>| >Thats a myth. Jobs have been exported but to machines not to
>lower-paid
>| >workers.
>| >
>| >Company A makes widjits by hand and employs 50,000 people. Another
>| >company offers them machines capable of making the same widjits for
>1/10th
>| >the cost with only 500 people. But A cannot do that in the USA due to
>| >gummymint regs and union pressure. So it builds a factory overseas.
>And
>| >guess who laps up the cheap wijits. Why the folks getting laid off of
>| >course .....
>| >
>|
>| You assume it goes overseas because it was prevented from building the
>| factory here.
>
>I don't assume anything I am telling you what happened to the US Auto (and
>other) industries.

Given the plant expansions and repurposing I find that interesting. It
is true that they are expanding in China and India to build cars for
sale there. As long as they build and sell them there I see it as
good business. At least in theory they send money back here.

>|
>| I assume it goes overseas because since it will build the new
>| automated factory anyway it might as well get rid of all the
>| "expensive" US workers and train up a batch of cheap one's instead.
>
>The expensive workers jobs are doomed anyway. Ask why Honda can build
>cars in Ohio and BMW in No. Carolina but GM and Chrysler are struggling.

You realize that the workers are paid about the same. The cost
problem fell into two areas. One was the cost of the pensions that US
companies provided but the foreign companies did not. That has been
addressed. The second problem is the cost of management in the US
compared to other countries. That still needs work.

>|
>| I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
>| That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?
>
>That assumption is correct - government *can* do nothing. How do they
>survive? As one wag advised "Eat your foreign car!". In the case of the
>auto industry "they" are part of the problem.

The government can do a lot. Two easy answers are an import tarrif or
a requirement that foreign sourced goods be produced in factories that
meet US standards. Both of those ploys are used by other countries to
control imports from us.

>|
>| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
>| workers probably won't.
>
>Sell them overseas .... <g>
>

No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
at lower costs because they were not paying American management. China
in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
property theft as they do not believe in the concept.

[RMcBane]

The third problem is the union contract. GM agreed to put in "job
banks". Workers who were no longer needed because of automation or
whatever, were sent to the job bank where they waited for an opening in
another part of the plant to open up. The plants close to where I live
had hundreds if not thousands of employees being paid to sit in the job
banks waiting for jobs that never happened. If you are paying people to
do nothing, it really cuts down on your productivity numbers.

>> |
>> | I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
>> | That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?
>>
>> That assumption is correct - government *can* do nothing. How do they
>> survive? As one wag advised "Eat your foreign car!". In the case of the
>> auto industry "they" are part of the problem.
>
> The government can do a lot. Two easy answers are an import tarrif or
> a requirement that foreign sourced goods be produced in factories that
> meet US standards. Both of those ploys are used by other countries to
> control imports from us.
>
>> |
>> | A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
>> | workers probably won't.
>>
>> Sell them overseas .... <g>
>>
> No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
> like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
> when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
> at lower costs because they were not paying American management. China
> in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
> property theft as they do not believe in the concept.
>

--
Richard McBane

[nothermark]

Yes, I did not want to further complicate matters. The job bank was
one of the dumbest ideas I ever heard of.

The job bank is also gone now but they still have overhead problems
that will be interesting to watch...

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| I often worked 60 hours/week to make ends meet. If that is not the
| problem I cannot see why any sane person would do it. That leaves me
| wondering why you are complaining.
|

60 hours/wk is no big deal - I worked two full time jobs for years. Why?
Because I'm a sucker who didn't know about stuff for free.

It is the farmers, ranchers, miners, et cetera who produce things. Others
turn those things into things people want. The rest are basically
parasitic. Government should not discourage the producers to benefit the
parasites.

I know a girl who "saw the light" 3 credits short of an AA in Law
Enforcement when job offers began appearing. She found a shrink who
declared her too mentally ill to work and went on SS disability. That was
25 years ago.

[Vito00]

"Bruce S" <bruce...@gmail.com> wrote

| Many years ago while I was still employed I happened to read a book
| about lawyers and how much they earned out of college - and more
| importantly how much work they were expected to do in return for that
| income. It turned out that the average "new" lawyer was expected to
| work at least twice as many hours as I worked and received a salary
| about twice what I made. Since I made a more than adequate income, it
| was quite easy for me to determine that there was no way I would work
| twice as much just for that increase in pay. Some people have more
| important things to do in life than make more money.
|

Especially if the gummymint is going to take over half of your extra pay
and give it to somebody for not working at all.

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| You realize that the workers are paid about the same. The cost
| problem fell into two areas. One was the cost of the pensions that US
| companies provided but the foreign companies did not. That has been
| addressed. The second problem is the cost of management in the US
| compared to other countries. That still needs work.

You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the same
pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same. Yes, Management
still needs trimming. Many companies overstaff to be able to provide
skelton crews during strikes.

|
| >|
| >| I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
| >| That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?
| >
| >That assumption is correct - government *can* do nothing. How do they
| >survive? As one wag advised "Eat your foreign car!". In the case of
the
| >auto industry "they" are part of the problem.
|
| The government can do a lot. Two easy answers are an import tarrif or
| a requirement that foreign sourced goods be produced in factories that
| meet US standards. Both of those ploys are used by other countries to
| control imports from us.

Heh! Go lurk on a motorcycle newsgroup. They're still bitching about RR
slapping a tarrif on Japanese bikes.

|
| >|
| >| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
| >| workers probably won't.
| >
| >Sell them overseas .... <g>
| >
| No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
| like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
| when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
| at lower costs because they were not paying American management. China
| in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
| property theft as they do not believe in the concept.

Worked for Japan with the "right" government incentives.

[nothermark]

So why didn't you go that route?

[nothermark]

That's what you get for being a working stiff. IF you were really
rich they take less than a quarter.

[nothermark]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:09:35 -0400, "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

>"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
>| You realize that the workers are paid about the same. The cost
>| problem fell into two areas. One was the cost of the pensions that US
>| companies provided but the foreign companies did not. That has been
>| addressed. The second problem is the cost of management in the US
>| compared to other countries. That still needs work.
>
>You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the same
>pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same. Yes, Management
>still needs trimming. Many companies overstaff to be able to provide
>skelton crews during strikes.

No, I know the difference between direct and indirect costs. Direct
is what the production worker is paid. I tried to keep the rest
simple enough for you. ;-)

>|
>| >|
>| >| I also assume out government will do nothing to prevent the shift.
>| >| That leaves 50,000 jobless people here. How do they survive?
>| >
>| >That assumption is correct - government *can* do nothing. How do they
>| >survive? As one wag advised "Eat your foreign car!". In the case of
>the
>| >auto industry "they" are part of the problem.
>|
>| The government can do a lot. Two easy answers are an import tarrif or
>| a requirement that foreign sourced goods be produced in factories that
>| meet US standards. Both of those ploys are used by other countries to
>| control imports from us.
>
>Heh! Go lurk on a motorcycle newsgroup. They're still bitching about RR
>slapping a tarrif on Japanese bikes.

Somebody will always bitch. The problem is the morons making the
decisions are not taking responsibility. I could go on but you have
heard it all before.

>|
>| >|
>| >| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
>| >| workers probably won't.
>| >
>| >Sell them overseas .... <g>
>| >
>| No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
>| like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
>| when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
>| at lower costs because they were not paying American management. China
>| in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
>| property theft as they do not believe in the concept.
>
>Worked for Japan with the "right" government incentives.
>

The major difference seems to be the Chinese are reluctant to look at
their quality problems on one hand while demanding we relocate R&D
over there as part of getting access to cheap labor.

[Larry]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:02:08 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
wrote:

> "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

>>You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the same
>>pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same. Yes, Management
>>still needs trimming. Many companies overstaff to be able to provide
>>skelton crews during strikes.
>
>No, I know the difference between direct and indirect costs. Direct
>is what the production worker is paid. I tried to keep the rest
>simple enough for you. ;-)

Only the nothermark economics theory considers pension benefits an
indirect cost? Benefits are a part of salary. If you do not get the
benefits you get more pay.

Benefits that the company must pay for are DIRECT costs any way you
look at it.
--
Larry
Citrus County Florida

[George Anthony]

"Larry" <La...@fishing.net> wrote in message
news:2t40m8ta78v0pt7r9...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:02:08 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
> wrote:
>> "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the same
>>>pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same. Yes,
>>>Management
>>>still needs trimming. Many companies overstaff to be able to provide
>>>skelton crews during strikes.

Sounds like smart management to me. But, believe me, very few
companies are "over staffed" these days.

[nothermark]

then you differentiate between Joe on the line putting the car
together and Joe's boss and the pension the guy Joe replaced gets.

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
| "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

| >You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the
same
| >pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same.
|

| No, I know the difference between direct and indirect costs. Direct
| is what the production worker is paid. I tried to keep the rest
| simple enough for you. ;-)

Too simple, having managed programs. "Direct costs" include wages, paid
absence, health care, pension contributions, et al.

|
| >
| >Heh! Go lurk on a motorcycle newsgroup. They're still bitching about
RR
| >slapping a tarrif on Japanese bikes.
|
| Somebody will always bitch. The problem is the morons making the
| decisions are not taking responsibility. I could go on but you have
| heard it all before.

The 'bitchers' in this case are the ones mad about having to pay what
their bikes cost to produce plus a profit. Japan put the Brit bike mfgrs
out by having their gummymint subsidize them ... almost got the US too.

|
|
| >|
| >| >|
| >| >| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
| >| >| workers probably won't.
| >| >
| >| >Sell them overseas .... <g>
| >| >
| >| No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
| >| like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
| >| when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
| >| at lower costs because they were not paying American management.
China
| >| in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
| >| property theft as they do not believe in the concept.
| >
| >Worked for Japan with the "right" government incentives.
| >
| The major difference seems to be the Chinese are reluctant to look at
| their quality problems on one hand while demanding we relocate R&D
| over there as part of getting access to cheap labor.

Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big enough
part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby creating
jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
that but it work for Japan for decades.

[D-R]

On 4/6/2013 10:55 AM, Vito00 wrote:
> Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big enough
> part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby creating
> jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
> that but it work for Japan for decades.

Yup it did work for decades. Now go and look at the Japanese
national debit. Any time the government gets involved in business the
taxpayer eventually takes it in the shorts.

--

AJ - deep in the Sonoran Desert

[nothermark]

Not quite. This country ran on tariffs in the early days after the
Constitution. That was how the debt was paid off for the revolution
and the War of 1812. As I recall we made a small profit and
established the industrial base we have been pissing away since WWII.
It seems the Founding Fathers understood why factory's were good
things.

[nothermark]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 13:55:02 -0400, "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

>"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
>| "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>| >You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the
>same
>| >pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same.
>|
>| No, I know the difference between direct and indirect costs. Direct
>| is what the production worker is paid. I tried to keep the rest
>| simple enough for you. ;-)
>
>Too simple, having managed programs. "Direct costs" include wages, paid
>absence, health care, pension contributions, et al.
>|
>| >
>| >Heh! Go lurk on a motorcycle newsgroup. They're still bitching about
>RR
>| >slapping a tarrif on Japanese bikes.
>|
>| Somebody will always bitch. The problem is the morons making the
>| decisions are not taking responsibility. I could go on but you have
>| heard it all before.
>
>The 'bitchers' in this case are the ones mad about having to pay what
>their bikes cost to produce plus a profit. Japan put the Brit bike mfgrs
>out by having their gummymint subsidize them ... almost got the US too.

And we were stupid enough to let them.

I wish I knew the root cause(s) of the decision to spread
manufacturing around the world as a means of ending world strife. It
certainly has had a pile of (I hope) unintended consequences.

>|
>|
>| >|
>| >| >|
>| >| >| A second issue is who buys all those wijits? The 50,000 displaced
>| >| >| workers probably won't.
>| >| >
>| >| >Sell them overseas .... <g>
>| >| >
>| >| No market. Every preson I have talked to that worked in a project
>| >| like that pointed out how their design work was copied by the locals
>| >| when they started up competitive companies producing the same things
>| >| at lower costs because they were not paying American management.
>China
>| >| in particular does not do more than give lip service to intellectual
>| >| property theft as they do not believe in the concept.
>| >
>| >Worked for Japan with the "right" government incentives.
>| >
>| The major difference seems to be the Chinese are reluctant to look at
>| their quality problems on one hand while demanding we relocate R&D
>| over there as part of getting access to cheap labor.
>
>Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big enough
>part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby creating
>jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
>that but it work for Japan for decades.
>

There is no reason for Uncle to pay a cent. That is the problem now -
too many tax breaks. The Carrot has become ubiquitous and expected so
it no longer is a reward. It's past time to get out the whip and
remind folks.

There are two models for overseas business that do not screw us. One
is to make it here and sell it there so we make a healthy profit. Next
best is to make it there and sell it there and bring back some profit.

The third model is make it there and sell it here thus maximizing
screwing us. That transers worker pay there while eliminating the
taxes workers and factories pay here while putting the displace
workers on some form of dole thus increasing the demand for the
reduced resources. It is fiscal suicide.

[Bruce S]

On 4/6/2013 10:55 AM, Vito00 wrote:

> Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big enough
> part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby creating
> jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
> that but it work for Japan for decades.

No, it hasn't worked for Japan. Their economy has been stagnating for
almost 20 years. If their government was not creating money out of thin
air, they would be a third world economy. It can't last forever.

[Mike Hendrix at dot]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 13:55:02 -0400, "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

>"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote
>| "Vito00" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>| >You are disagreeing with yourself. If Honda workers do not get the
>same
>| >pensions as GM workers then they are not "paid" the same.
>|
>| No, I know the difference between direct and indirect costs. Direct
>| is what the production worker is paid. I tried to keep the rest
>| simple enough for you. ;-)
>
>Too simple, having managed programs. "Direct costs" include wages, paid
>absence, health care, pension contributions, et al.

--------------------------------

You are correct and the loon you are arguing with is the one that is
not even close.

Direct costs include not only the actual wages of the direct worker
doing hands on but the costs of all his "benefit package"....that
could be annual leave, sick leave, paid holidays, SSI, Workers Comp
and other things that do not quickly come to my mind.

Direct costs also include material that was used. (excluding things
like rags,lubricants, screws, nuts, rivets and other small items that
would be classified as indirect materials).

Whoever it is that you are having this discussion with has no clue
about the subject he is talking about.

mike,
a retired accountant
--

Pensacola, FL
http://www.travellogs.us/

[Larry]

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 09:39:33 -0400, nothermark <nothe...@not.here>
wrote:

Could you rephrase that? In English this time?

[Vito00]

"nothermark" <nothe...@not.here> wrote

| I wish I knew the root cause(s) of the decision to spread
| manufacturing around the world as a means of ending world strife. It
| certainly has had a pile of (I hope) unintended consequences.

There was/is a group who somewhat rightly see the root causes of war as
economic disparity and hungry dictators. They see the solution as
everybody having the same controlling socialist quasi-democracy and about
the same wealth. Thus over the years the Soviet Union has been replaced,
men like Saddam have been or are being removed, and the USA is being
"woosiefied" into accepting ever less freedom. "Arab Spring" is just
another step. Ditto disarming Americans - physically and spiritually
(Think PC).

Perhaps the best known of these is George Sorros. He owns the Democrat
Party and the companies that make most of the voting machines.

|
| There is no reason for Uncle to pay a cent. That is the problem now -
| too many tax breaks. The Carrot has become ubiquitous and expected so
| it no longer is a reward. It's past time to get out the whip and
| remind folks.
|
| There are two models for overseas business that do not screw us. One
| is to make it here and sell it there so we make a healthy profit. Next
| best is to make it there and sell it there and bring back some profit.
|
| The third model is make it there and sell it here thus maximizing
| screwing us. That transers worker pay there while eliminating the
| taxes workers and factories pay here while putting the displace
| workers on some form of dole thus increasing the demand for the
| reduced resources. It is fiscal suicide.

Consider the cause. If country A and country B have equal factories,
equal worker pay, et al, but the government of A subsidizes its mfgrs then
A can sell its goods cheaper than B and even B's workers will buy them and
B will go bust. So B grants even bigger subsidies ..... and that's the
spiral we've gotten into. The smart move is for B to slap import taxes on
A's subsidized goods but B is a democracy and it's voters will unelect
anybody who makes them pay more so that's not happening.

Who supports subsidies? He have met the enemy and he is us.

[Vito00]

"Bruce S" <bruce...@gmail.com> wrote .

| On 4/6/2013 10:55 AM, Vito00 wrote:
| > Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big
enough
| > part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby
creating
| > jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
| > that but it work for Japan for decades.
|
| No, it hasn't worked for Japan. Their economy has been stagnating for
| almost 20 years. If their government was not creating money out of thin
| air, they would be a third world economy. It can't last forever.
|

It cannot last forever but even with their current troubles Japan is a lot
better off than they were in, say, 1950 - having raped a number of other
countries getting there. Of course our alternative to subsidizing our own
industry is to tax theirs via tariffs but then prices at Walmart would be
forced up and no good Democrat is about to let that happen.

[Bruce S]

Tariffs are worse for our economy than buying the imports at the current
rate.

--
Bruce

Thomas Jefferson - "The policy of the American government is to leave
their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of
another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

[nothermark]

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 16:53:23 -0700, Bruce S <bruce...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 4/7/2013 4:43 PM, Vito00 wrote:
>> "Bruce S" <bruce...@gmail.com> wrote .
>> | On 4/6/2013 10:55 AM, Vito00 wrote:
>> | > Can't speak for China but if one could get Uncle Sam to pay a big
>> enough
>> | > part of wigit manufacturing we could sell them overseas, thereby
>> creating
>> | > jobs for 'mericans instead of giving them food stamps. Not advocating
>> | > that but it work for Japan for decades.
>> |
>> | No, it hasn't worked for Japan. Their economy has been stagnating for
>> | almost 20 years. If their government was not creating money out of thin
>> | air, they would be a third world economy. It can't last forever.
>> |
>> It cannot last forever but even with their current troubles Japan is a lot
>> better off than they were in, say, 1950 - having raped a number of other
>> countries getting there. Of course our alternative to subsidizing our own
>> industry is to tax theirs via tariffs but then prices at Walmart would be
>> forced up and no good Democrat is about to let that happen.
>
>Tariffs are worse for our economy than buying the imports at the current
>rate.

If you really believe that idiocy I suggest you read up on the
economic history of India and China under British colonialism. You
might also want to look at root causes of our move to independence.

I find your economic theories mind boggling in the face of all the
evidence to the contrary.

[nothermark]

I made the mistake when I was younger of thinking politicians really
tried to do what was good for the country.

Part of the reason for the mistake was that I still think they did do
that to a reasonable extent back when we were a younger country. One
of those moves was tarrif because they understood protecting industry
and having internal cash flow. That was when folks who ran business's
also ran for office.