Is four wheel drive needed for towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel?
russ crisp
towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
behind you, that you won't be able to get out. We are interested in
any experience anyone might have had or any opinions from the group.
wi...@epix.net
In Article<35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, <cr...@soco.wcu.edu>
writes in part:
> However, people (mostly salespeople) keep telling us we will be
> sorry if we try to tow without four wheel drive. The reason seems
> to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the front (deisel engine) that
> if you get off road in mud with a trailer behind you, that you won't
> be able to get out.
If you get into someplace where you need 4wd with the trailer on, you
are already practically stuck. Unless you plan to also buy a very
heavy-duty winch, don't listen to these people. I have towed with both
and NEVER needed 4wd with the trailer on.
Of course, we never tried to drag the trailer through a mud bog
either!
Will KD3XR
Ralph Lindberg
crisp) wrote:
>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
I think the key word here is sales-drones... they make more money if you
by a 4x4.
There are serious down-sides to a taller (4x4) truck, it's much more
difficult to tow a trailer level with a tall truck, you need either a
drop-hitch (TrailerTrailer) or less bed clearance (5er). Because if you
don't tow level you have less stable hiway towing.
--
Ralph Lindberg N7BSN <n7...@callsign.net> ICQ=.5988954
RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/>
If Windows is the answer, I really want to know what the question is.
rog...@uiuc.edu
with the trailer behind me or without the trailer behind me I couldn't
get out. I don't know if you need 4wd or not but if a 4wd isn't going
to get out I can promise you a 2wd isn't going to get out. The front
is very heavy and and the rear wheels have a hard time moving it on
any slick surface but 4wd isn't a miracle worker either.
Roger
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
wrote:
>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
Richard Bishop
wi...@epix.net wrote:
>
>In Article<35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, <cr...@soco.wcu.edu>
>writes in part:
>
>> sorry if we try to tow without four wheel drive. The reason seems
>> to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the front (deisel engine) that
>> if you get off road in mud with a trailer behind you, that you won't
>> be able to get out.
>
>are already practically stuck. Unless you plan to also buy a very
>heavy-duty winch, don't listen to these people. I have towed with both
>and NEVER needed 4wd with the trailer on.
You never travel in snow? I've already used the 4x4 on my truck several times.
But then, I don't wait until I am totally bogged down before I use it.
>
>Of course, we never tried to drag the trailer through a mud bog
>either!
Doesn't take a mud bog. Just a slick road or ice or snow or even a steep hill.
>
>Will KD3XR
>
>
Sue
Richard Bishop
rog...@uiuc.edu wrote:
>I had a 1989 Ford Diesel with two wheel drive and when I got in mud
>with the trailer behind me or without the trailer behind me I couldn't
>get out. I don't know if you need 4wd or not but if a 4wd isn't going
>to get out I can promise you a 2wd isn't going to get out. The front
>is very heavy and and the rear wheels have a hard time moving it on
>any slick surface but 4wd isn't a miracle worker either.
No, but you don't wait until you are totally bogged down either. I often
use 4x4 to PREVENT problems and PREVENT the risk of getting stuck.
>Roger
Sue who grew up on a farm and knows when to use the 4x4
>
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
>wrote:
>
>>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
George Lowry
having graduated to a converted coach, however, I have towed with a
F-250 two wheel drive p/u on many an occasion. We have pulled a TT
into the Sierra Mountains on hunting trips and into areas where the
guys with their fancy 4wd were having trouble. I might note that we do
not have limited slip either.
The primary need for getting anyplace is driver ability, skill, and
patience. I watched as the 4 - wheelers would, with foot to the
floor, dig themselves in deeper and deeper. Many times that would
happen with them not towing anything and we could go thru with no
problems. The solution is to NOT allow the wheels to start spinning.
Traction is what counts and if you are going to hotrod, 4wd will not
keep you from getting stuck.
George
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:52:04 GMT, rog...@uiuc.edu wrote:
>I had a 1989 Ford Diesel with two wheel drive and when I got in mud
>with the trailer behind me or without the trailer behind me I couldn't
>get out. I don't know if you need 4wd or not but if a 4wd isn't going
>to get out I can promise you a 2wd isn't going to get out. The front
>is very heavy and and the rear wheels have a hard time moving it on
>any slick surface but 4wd isn't a miracle worker either.
>Roger
Kenneth Carter
When you bring snow and ice into consideration related to tow of a 10,000
pound trailer with a lighter truck, the touting of the blessing of four
wheel drive goes straight out the window, in the ditch, or against the wall
whatever the case may be.
When pulling in winter you have to always remember that going is the big
problem... Stopping is! A 4x4 isn't going to help you one iota when you
that 5 tons of mass begins to take its own route due to icy conditions. Yes
the trailer has breaks, but what kind of real stopping power are any breaks
when dealing with 5-7 tons of rig that has just came up with an idea of it's
own on a icy road. The ONLY thing that can help you in those condition is
reduction in the amount of inertia. Less speed = less inertia = more
stopping ability.
This ole boy was raise on the farm as well, and saw more than one person who
thought they had the world by the tail with their four wheel drives just
before dumping the thing into a ditch off a frozen road bed.
Nope, I'm not buying that 4x4's are an answer to winter pulling.
Ken...
Richard Bishop wrote in message <6ofmvq$e...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>You never travel in snow? I've already used the 4x4 on my truck several
times.
>But then, I don't wait until I am totally bogged down before I use it.
>
>Doesn't take a mud bog. Just a slick road or ice or snow or even a steep
hill.
>
>
>Sue
>
JDavis1277
stay away from me. There are darn few drivers good enough to handle a rig in
snow with or without FWD. FWD is not needed for towing in 99.999% of cases.
For the other .001% of the time, just don't go there.
larry estep
tow vehicle is a FWD Suburban. In my experience FWD is not necessary but
really nice to have. If you get in a tight place the convience of the
super low gearing plus the added traction of the front wheels can really
help. I have 170000 miles on this vehicle with no problems so far. My
opinion is that the FWD has protected the transmission with the lower
gearing on hard pulling and tight maneuvering. Just my opinion--hope that
it helps
Will Rosenberry
wrote:
>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
>behind you, that you won't be able to get out. We are interested in
>any experience anyone might have had or any opinions from the group.
I just traded my 4X4 on a 2WD. If you look at the whole picture my
old truck 4X4 was realy1 front and 1 rear wheel drive. My new truck
has BOTH rear wheel's driving (posi) AND WHEN ITS SNOWING MY TRAILER
IS IN STORAGE. So this way we will not discuss posi in the snow. This
thread is about 4X4 and TOWING. I opted to spend the $3000+ 4 wheel
drive would cost towards a diesel motor. I have never needed 4X4 for
towing.
Will Rosenberry
KB3CSC
wi...@epix.net
In Article<#kVOgK0r9GA.271@upnetnews03>, <kkca...@email.msn.com>
writes in part:
> When pulling in winter you have to always remember that going is the
>big problem... Stopping is! A 4x4 isn't going to help you one iota
>when you that 5 tons of mass begins to take its own route
Excellent post, with this part being (IMO) the best. So far, nobody
seems to have mentioned that even with a heavy diesel in front, there
is gonna be more weight on the drive axle of a truck towing a fiver,
and if you cannot get through with 2wd, 4wd will make only a tiny
difference in traction. Put on chains if it gets that bad.
BTW I am no enemy of 4wd - if fact like them for serious navigation of
mountain roads. Not because you need the front wheels pulling but
because you can safely descend the steepest grades using low range!
But unless very steep grades are part of your need/want scenario, 4wd
for towing is simply not necessary.
IMO
Will KD3XR
Hugh Darling
two wheel drive with limited slip. You only have two wheels driving, one
front and one rear with the 4X4, and they will both be the ones with the
least traction. Two wheel drive with limited slip, at least has one wheel
getting some traction. The only place the 4X4 is better is when the front
wheel(s) are on good surface.
Hugh
Richard Bishop wrote in message <6ofmvq$e...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>...
>In article <NEWTNews.90041...@epix.net>,
> wi...@epix.net wrote:
>>
>>In Article<35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, <cr...@soco.wcu.edu>
>>writes in part:
>>
>>> However, people (mostly salespeople) keep telling us we will be
>>> sorry if we try to tow without four wheel drive. The reason seems
>>> to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the front (deisel engine) that
>>> if you get off road in mud with a trailer behind you, that you won't
>>> be able to get out.
>>
>>If you get into someplace where you need 4wd with the trailer on, you
>>are already practically stuck. Unless you plan to also buy a very
>>heavy-duty winch, don't listen to these people. I have towed with both
>>and NEVER needed 4wd with the trailer on.
>
>You never travel in snow? I've already used the 4x4 on my truck several
times.
>But then, I don't wait until I am totally bogged down before I use it.
>
>>
>>Of course, we never tried to drag the trailer through a mud bog
>>either!
>
>Doesn't take a mud bog. Just a slick road or ice or snow or even a steep
hill.
>
>>
>>Will KD3XR
>>
>>
>
>
>Sue
>
Hugh Darling
when we had a real wet sticky snow. I had my Sonoma pickup and just dropped
the transmission into second, kept my foot steady on the gas, passed a Jeep
w/4X4 ( he was burning his wheels), and got all the way up the hill past a
bunch of hapless cars and trucks. Every single person on the hill, except
yours truly, was spinning his wheels and sitting there.
Hugh
George Lowry wrote in message <35b27648....@news.ns.net>...
>It has been a number of years since I have been into the towing area,
>having graduated to a converted coach, however, I have towed with a
>F-250 two wheel drive p/u on many an occasion. We have pulled a TT
>into the Sierra Mountains on hunting trips and into areas where the
>guys with their fancy 4wd were having trouble. I might note that we do
>not have limited slip either.
>
>The primary need for getting anyplace is driver ability, skill, and
>patience. I watched as the 4 - wheelers would, with foot to the
>floor, dig themselves in deeper and deeper. Many times that would
>happen with them not towing anything and we could go thru with no
>problems. The solution is to NOT allow the wheels to start spinning.
>Traction is what counts and if you are going to hotrod, 4wd will not
>keep you from getting stuck.
>
>George
>
>
>
>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:52:04 GMT, rog...@uiuc.edu wrote:
>
>>I had a 1989 Ford Diesel with two wheel drive and when I got in mud
>>with the trailer behind me or without the trailer behind me I couldn't
>>get out. I don't know if you need 4wd or not but if a 4wd isn't going
>>to get out I can promise you a 2wd isn't going to get out. The front
>>is very heavy and and the rear wheels have a hard time moving it on
>>any slick surface but 4wd isn't a miracle worker either.
>>Roger
>>
>>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>>>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>>>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>>>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>>>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>>>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
James R. Maddox
important for pulling trailers and fivers, wouldn't tractor trailer
rigs all have it?
rosen...@chesco.nospam.com (Will Rosenberry) wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
>wrote:
>
>>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
>>behind you, that you won't be able to get out. We are interested in
>>any experience anyone might have had or any opinions from the group.
Grady Fields
I think alot of people are missing a major point.
At least out here in the west (Ca.), many, many, many campgrounds are on
hilly terrain. This often means that the trailer parking spot has a grade of
some sort which must be ascended/descended to park the trailer. Try slow
speed navigation in dirt, hit the grade, and then listen for the big V8
rumble as the driver tries to back the trailer up the hill. When the going
gets tough, thank God for 4x4 low. In 4x4 low, there is 2-3 times more
torque at the wheel, and you can control speed easier. So its not so much
traction on 2, 3, or 4 wheels, it may more of an issue getting enough power
to those wheels
True, many "other" sites in the same campground may have trailer spots with
easier access, but then again they might be inferior or worse yet occupied
<egads>.
I don't trailer myself, but I frequently camp with others who do. In fact
just last week, the above scenario occured. I would tend to think of 4x4 as
peace-of-mind. And if having 4x4 means the difference in being able to back
into that prized spot for the duration of a stay vs. hanging in the low rent
district, then I'd say its worth it. Besides, after you drop the trailer,
there is often many miles of unimproved road out in the wilderness to
explore while searching for that elusive secret fishing hole.
Is 4x4 required -- NO, is 4x4 nice to have YES.
Richard Bishop
rix...@mindspring.com (James R. Maddox) wrote:
>This is probably an oversimplification, but if 4 wheel drive were
>important for pulling trailers and fivers, wouldn't tractor trailer
>rigs all have it?
It's a totally different set-up.
Sue who likes 4wheel drive on wet roads.
Richard Bishop
"Kenneth Carter" <kkca...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Beg your pardon. I find this so comical and it isn't even close to funny.
>When you bring snow and ice into consideration related to tow of a 10,000
>pound trailer with a lighter truck, the touting of the blessing of four
>wheel drive goes straight out the window, in the ditch, or against the wall
>whatever the case may be.
Towing in ice and snow is a matter of skill and luck. Just saying that four
wheel drive makes no difference is being pretty darned ignorant.
>
>When pulling in winter you have to always remember that going is the big
>problem... Stopping is! A 4x4 isn't going to help you one iota when you
>that 5 tons of mass begins to take its own route due to icy conditions. Yes
>the trailer has breaks, but what kind of real stopping power are any breaks
>when dealing with 5-7 tons of rig that has just came up with an idea of it's
>own on a icy road. The ONLY thing that can help you in those condition is
>reduction in the amount of inertia. Less speed = less inertia = more
>stopping ability.
And a two wheel drive won't help as much as 4 when you need to try to creep along
on a bad road.
>
>This ole boy was raise on the farm as well, and saw more than one person who
>thought they had the world by the tail with their four wheel drives just
>before dumping the thing into a ditch off a frozen road bed.
This old gal has driven all kinds of stuff in all kinds of weather. Sure, I've seen
lots of accidents. And I've been in a few. But I prefer having 4 wheels for traction
instead of being cocky and saying two wheels works just as well.
>
>Nope, I'm not buying that 4x4's are an answer to winter pulling.
>
Sigh. They DO make it a bit better, though. Or are you really saying a two wheel
drive can do just as well as a four wheel drive?
Have you EVER driven anything with 4 wheel drive?
>Ken...
>
Sue
>Richard Bishop wrote in message <6ofmvq$e...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>...
>>
>>You never travel in snow? I've already used the 4x4 on my truck several
>times.
>>But then, I don't wait until I am totally bogged down before I use it.
>>
>>Doesn't take a mud bog. Just a slick road or ice or snow or even a steep
>hill.
>>
>>
>>Sue
>>
>
>
Ronald E. Bowser
>In article <35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ
>crisp) wrote:
>
>>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>by a 4x4.
>
> There are serious down-sides to a taller (4x4) truck, it's much more
>difficult to tow a trailer level with a tall truck, you need either a
>drop-hitch (TrailerTrailer) or less bed clearance (5er). Because if you
>don't tow level you have less stable hiway towing.
>
However, I got 4x4 for the extra pulling traction in possible snow conditions,
and I have chains. I have only been in snowy conditions twice and they were
mild. In one I used low range so I could creep down a 10% grade below the
snow line, but it was wet.
Low range has been useful (but not necessary) in tight manuvering, steep
driveways, over curbs, etc. where I wanted to crawl. I have also gone to four
wheel in some parking cases where the wheels wanted to slip and the 4x made it
easier.
Bottom line: If you go the normal places, you don't need it; but it can be
handy - and expensive.
Ron
Richard Bishop
"Grady Fields" <gra...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
My point exactly. And when I go back through the hills on my dad's farm, it's darned
nice to have 4x4 to get me slowly over those less than level areas.
Sue
Al
getting one stuck. I don't necessarily buy the trailer theory since a
trailer will usually add weight to the rear improving the traction. I've
never stuck it with a trailer but have a couple of times in sand with no
trailer. A quick use of 4x4 and I'm out.
Al
russ crisp wrote:
> We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
> towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
> no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
Kenneth Carter
Yes, I've own three 4WD trucks and a Jeep CJ-7. I'm not saying that 4x4
are less safe than 2x4. What I was trying to bring to bear was that many...
too many people buy 4x4's and think that just because they have extra
ability to go forward that they can stop that extra umph. This gets even
more dangerous with a large trailer attached to the truck.
I don't disagree that a 4x4 is handy at times, but it is far from what I
would consider important in relation to pulling a trailer. There are many
other factors that the normal RVer should consider before putting the 4x4
option into the mix. Again I stress that this doesn't make a 4x4 a bad tow
vehicle, but only yet another option. Hopefully an option that is used
responsibly for the sake of the owner, their passengers and the general
public.
Ken....
EdJ
James R. Maddox wrote:
>
> This is probably an oversimplification, but if 4 wheel drive were
> important for pulling trailers and fivers, wouldn't tractor trailer
> rigs all have it?
>
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ed J e...@ibm.net
On my retirement adventure from the rolling hills of
the Southern Tier in New York State.....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Greg Surratt
>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
>behind you, that you won't be able to get out. We are interested in
>any experience anyone might have had or any opinions from the group.
All the talk about traction - I just (quickly) scanned through this
thread. Has anybody mentioned the height factor with a 4x4 and a
fifth wheel? Ford is supposed to be generating a TSB to lower their
trucks. People are complaing about the new Dodge Rams being too high
for a fifth wheel without some modifications. And the 4x4 is even
higher.
As for the salespeople telling you that you'll get stuck in the mud
because of the weight on the front end, just take off your load
levelers, drop all the hitch weight on the rear axle and watch the
front end come up.
Richard Bishop
Al <eh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I have an F350 CC PSD 4x4 and the heavy front is definitely capable of
>getting one stuck. I don't necessarily buy the trailer theory since a
>trailer will usually add weight to the rear improving the traction. I've
>never stuck it with a trailer but have a couple of times in sand with no
>trailer. A quick use of 4x4 and I'm out.
Our drive is uphill, tends to drift shut when there's snow and can be a real
bitch for a 2wheel drive. We put the truck in 4wheel, run it up and down to
break the drifts.
Sue
>Al
Richard Bishop
glsu...@usa.net (Greg Surratt) wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
>wrote:
>
>>We are considering a two wheel drive F250 Powerstroke Deisel for
>>towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
>>no need for four wheel drive. However, people (mostly salespeople)
>>keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>>drive. The reason seems to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the
>>front (deisel engine) that if you get off road in mud with a trailer
>>behind you, that you won't be able to get out. We are interested in
>>any experience anyone might have had or any opinions from the group.
>
>All the talk about traction - I just (quickly) scanned through this
>thread. Has anybody mentioned the height factor with a 4x4 and a
>fifth wheel? Ford is supposed to be generating a TSB to lower their
>trucks. People are complaing about the new Dodge Rams being too high
>for a fifth wheel without some modifications. And the 4x4 is even
>higher.
Both Ford and Dodge have had numerous complaints about the height of their
4x4s. Chevy is lower.
>
>As for the salespeople telling you that you'll get stuck in the mud
>because of the weight on the front end, just take off your load
>levelers, drop all the hitch weight on the rear axle and watch the
>front end come up.
That would work!
Sue
Richard Bishop
"Kenneth Carter" <kkca...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Sue,
> Yes, I've own three 4WD trucks and a Jeep CJ-7. I'm not saying that 4x4
>are less safe than 2x4. What I was trying to bring to bear was that many...
>too many people buy 4x4's and think that just because they have extra
>ability to go forward that they can stop that extra umph. This gets even
>more dangerous with a large trailer attached to the truck.
There is always a problem with people trying to do things with vehicles that they
just aren't built to do. There are more than a few idiots who get stuck, thinking
a 4x4 gives them 'tank' capabilities. BUt I do find the 4x4 ability very handy,
whether pulling a trailer out of a muddy field (horse shows tend to have lousy parking)
or just usign 4x4 to drive down snowy roads.
>
> I don't disagree that a 4x4 is handy at times, but it is far from what I
>would consider important in relation to pulling a trailer. There are many
>other factors that the normal RVer should consider before putting the 4x4
>option into the mix. Again I stress that this doesn't make a 4x4 a bad tow
>vehicle, but only yet another option. Hopefully an option that is used
>responsibly for the sake of the owner, their passengers and the general
>public.
>
I prefer it since it gives me a bit more security when it's slippery. Pulling a
trailer under bad conditions is ridiculous unless there is no other option.
I really think there is much more danger of people driving underpowered tow vehicles
than not getting the use out of a 4x4.
>Ken....
>
>
>
Sue
George Lowry
<kkca...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Sue,
> Yes, I've own three 4WD trucks and a Jeep CJ-7. I'm not saying that 4x4
>are less safe than 2x4. What I was trying to bring to bear was that many...
>too many people buy 4x4's and think that just because they have extra
>ability to go forward that they can stop that extra umph. This gets even
>more dangerous with a large trailer attached to the truck.
>
> I don't disagree that a 4x4 is handy at times, but it is far from what I
>would consider important in relation to pulling a trailer. There are many
>other factors that the normal RVer should consider before putting the 4x4
>option into the mix. Again I stress that this doesn't make a 4x4 a bad tow
>vehicle, but only yet another option. Hopefully an option that is used
>responsibly for the sake of the owner, their passengers and the general
>public.
>
>Ken....
>
>
IN the floods of '97, I watched the military stick TWO 6X6 trucks and
have to be rescued them selves. It still goes back to driving skills.
George
Mike Law
In this case I can believe that it would be Ford salesmen telling you to
get the 4x4. I offer the following example.
I currently own a 97 F250HD Diesel, subercab, 4x4 and my friend who is a
farmer has this 1970 chevy, 350 engine,2wd, standard cab, with
practically bald tire.
One time I went to visit him and caught him out in the middle of a field.
It so happened that it stated to rain and when we both went to leave he
walked right out of the field with no problems. Me on the other hand had
to get out, lock in the hubs, and use 4x4.
My point being that certain setups on trucks seem to go through things
totally different. I don't think my friend has ever really been stuck yet
I can count several times when I have went to see him that I have been
stuck on wet grass, mud, loose dirt(plowed field) and had to put it in
4x4 to get moving.
So it really doesn't surprise me that a Ford dealer would recommend the
4x4 with the diesel.
I guess it really comes down to the conditions you are running in. If you
stick to pavement then you don't need the 4x4 but if you get off road at
all you may find the diesel weight up front a bit of a nusance. Of course
with the trailer hooked up you put some weight on the back where to help
with traction but how about when you are unhooked and head for town,
shopping, or sightseeing.
Just my 2cents work.
Mike
In article <35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, cr...@soco.wcu.edu says...
Chris Hill
Maddox) wrote:
>This is probably an oversimplification, but if 4 wheel drive were
>important for pulling trailers and fivers, wouldn't tractor trailer
>rigs all have it?
How many of them park trailers in muddy fields. I have yet to get a
parking spot gravelled for my trailer (just haven't decided where/how
to do it) and if we only had 2wd, we wouldn't be able to get the
trailer out a lot of the time. One time this year, we chickened out
because of the amount of rain we had received, and last time we came
back it had rained all weekend while we were gone, but we got the
trailer back in its place anyway. No, 4wd won't help in really bad
mud (we found that out once too) but with common sense, it is a heck
of a lot better than no 4wd.
You also have to consider that if you want to take the trailer out in
the winter, the roads may be clear but your yard/driveway/gravel road
may be less than good. With 4wd and a bit of care you can still get
out to head south or whatever.
--
'90's Microsoft = '70's GM, Ford, and Chrysler
email: Hil...@earthlink.net Columbia, Missouri or there-abouts.
Guy Maberry
>
> In article <6ogm51$o...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
> "Grady Fields" <gra...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >I think alot of people are missing a major point.
> >
> >At least out here in the west (Ca.), many, many, many campgrounds are on hilly terrain. This often means that the trailer parking spot has a grade of some sort which must be ascended/descended to park the trailer.
> >
>
> My point exactly. And when I go back through the hills on my dad's farm, it's darned > nice to have 4x4 to get me slowly over those less than level areas.
>
> Sue
Interesting thread --- My exerience with a 4WD is that several campsites
(notabley Nanaimo, BC, Homer, AK, Lake Alpine and Bridgeport, CA) were
steep pulls in narrow quarters. Slipping into 4WD granny before even
trying to negotiate these sites in 2WD was totally effortless. Could I
have done it without 4WD? Probably yes, but at least I didn't spin the
wheels and tear up the ground.
The road to Atlin, BC, off the Alaska Highway is 60 miles, with some 40
miles of dirt, but when we went in it was mud, due to a heavy downpour.
Once, when stopped for photos, the rig would not budge in 2WD. Again,
slipping into 4WD granny let me ease the some 11,000 pounds of rig up to
a down grade where I was safely able to go back to 2WD. A few miles
later, the truck fishtailed on a steep curving upgrade in the heavy mud,
so it was back to 4WD high for several miles until we got past the worst
of it. The key point is SLOW and EASY. Atlin is a wonderful visit.
Many 2WD rigs there, but they were not half as muddy as us.
The 4WD truck was initially bought 4 years ago for exploring ghost towns
in the California Sierras and Nevada, but it works great as a tow
vehicle. Our new Prowler rides high (good ground clearance was a major
purchasing consideration) so there is no problem with level towing.
--
Guy Maberry
Barry Sherman
Will:
>>If you get into someplace where you need 4wd with the trailer on, you
>>are already practically stuck. Unless you plan to also buy a very
>>heavy-duty winch, don't listen to these people. I have towed with both
>>and NEVER needed 4wd with the trailer on.
Sue:
>You never travel in snow? I've already used the 4x4 on my truck several times.
>But then, I don't wait until I am totally bogged down before I use it.
Will:
>>Of course, we never tried to drag the trailer through a mud bog
>>either!
Sue:
>Doesn't take a mud bog. Just a slick road or ice or snow or even a steep hill.
Gotta side with Sue. Twice now I've encountered dirt roads into/out-of
dirt parking lots which were steep enough that we had to drop into 4wd
to tow the trailer up and out. Just going really slow didn't cut it.
Without 4wd we'd have been looking for a wrecker with a really big winch.
(And I'll admit that my judgement in going *down* the hills into the
parking lot might be called into question.)
I'm not saying that 4wd is mandatory for towing. That'd be silly. But since
we have it for other reasons, there've been a couple of times when I was
glad to have it while towing.
Also, we have a manual transmission in the truck (Ram 2500, Cummins) and find
that with the clutch fully engaged we move too fast for safety while backing
the trailer. That means that we have to ride the clutch while backing the
trailer and it's possible to overheat the clutch. It's a great convenience
to be able to put it in 4wd low range and minimize the amount that we
have to ride the clutch in the occasional difficult backing situation.
Again, not a compelling reason for having 4wd, but a nicety.
Barry
--
Barry Sherman | Art does not reproduce what we see.
Suma Technologies, LLC | It makes us see. -- Paul Klee
My opinions, not Suma's |
Patricia Hutchison
gets wet; sometimes you have to back in up a slight grade. We had to back
into a grade and it helped us just this spring. If you can afford it, go
for it. Don't go four wheeling with a trailer hitched.
wi...@epix.net wrote:
> In Article<35a970a6...@cowee.wcu.edu>, <cr...@soco.wcu.edu>
> writes in part:
>
> > However, people (mostly salespeople) keep telling us we will be
> > sorry if we try to tow without four wheel drive. The reason seems
> > to be that the F250 PS is so heavy in the front (deisel engine) that
> > if you get off road in mud with a trailer behind you, that you won't
> > be able to get out.
>
> If you get into someplace where you need 4wd with the trailer on, you
> are already practically stuck. Unless you plan to also buy a very
> heavy-duty winch, don't listen to these people. I have towed with both
> and NEVER needed 4wd with the trailer on.
>
> Of course, we never tried to drag the trailer through a mud bog
> either!
>
> Will KD3XR
RVin5
>drives
>they would have gotten stuck even sooner.
>
>
And it would have been easier to get them out. <G>
Lon VanOstran
Williamston, Mi
Escapees 52987
FMCA F227964
Good Sams Life Member
NRA Endowment member
Duaine Styles
>
> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:36:31 GMT, cr...@soco.wcu.edu (russ crisp)
> wrote:
> >
> > towing a travel trailer or fifth wheel. Most of the time we will have
> > keep telling us we will be sorry if we try to tow without four wheel
>
> :) The 4x4 choice is a religious matter. Seriously, if I didn't need my
> 4X4 for other purposes (rural minnesota winters, low range stuff), I'd
> rather have a two-wheel (rear) with a positraction-type rear end for
> towing.
Problem is most 2WD trucks are really one or the other of the two is
pushing. Where I come from positrac (or any other name for limited slip
differential you want to use) is a special order feature.
When I had my pickup aligned earlier this year the mechanic commented
that he doesn't see many pickups with positrac and said to be careful
when I had the differential grease changed (just in case).
SNOWMAN629
it it's there for you. I never used 4WD towing my trailer ... until today. I
just got another trailer so I was moving my old one to the front lawn so it
could be seen by people driving down the road ( its for sale ... 24 foot ,1971
continental asking $2400... anyway ) I was pulling it in 2WD with no problems
BUT I began to tear up the lawn alittle. I put it in 4WD to prevent destroying
the front lawn. I did not need 4WD .. I wasn't stuck but I did use it to
prevent slipping in the grass.
Also I noticed 4WD is good for pulling large boats ( on a trailer :O) ) out
of the water when the boat ramp is wet and slimy. But I guess that could be
another topic.
Les - KL7J
>
>???? You have 4x4 but you got the truck with the lockout hubs? Why?
>
>Our 97 2500 HD chevy has 4x4 shift inside the cab. No hubs, everything
done from
>inside.
>
>
Your right mine too, but they don't always do so well at extreme cold temps
as they are temp actuated. We also suffer the wear of both wheels turning
their axles including seal and Ujoint wear when the transfer case is not
engaged. Free wheeling hubs do not do this and can give better milage. The
new 1999 HD Ford comes with auto hubs that will auto engage or can be set to
manual free wheel or engaged. Nice.
Mike Law
dealer told me that the Manual hubs were much heavier duty, in the long
run required less maintenance, and they were on the truck with the
features that I wanted.
I don't really know which way to go on hubs. It is a pain to get out and
lock them in but I have never tore up a set up manual hubs. So I can go
either way.
In article <6oj3ut$m...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, bis...@ix.netcom.com
says...
Kurt Rajala
>
> ???? You have 4x4 but you got the truck with the lockout hubs? Why?
>
> Our 97 2500 HD chevy has 4x4 shift inside the cab. No hubs, everything done from
> inside.
>
I have a 1996 F250 PowerStroke 4x4 with manual locking hubs (my choice).
I went that way because when you lock them, you know that they are
engaged,
and when you set them to FREE, you know that they are disengaged. No
questions about it. I had other 4x4's with automatic hubs and never
knew for sure what the status of the front drive equipment was. Another
good reason for manual hubs is that auto hubs disengage and then
re-engage
every time you change direction. (Everyone with auto hubs should realize
this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
back-up for 10 feet to disengage hubs). If you are off-road on a hill
with auto hubs, get stuck & need to back down a little bit, I wouldn't
feel comfortable that my 4x4 is still engaged when I needed it. I have
one friend who almost rolled his truck on a muddy hill due to the
dis-engage/
re-engage property of auto hubs.
As far as getting out to lock the hubs ... if it is snowing, I lock them
before I get into the truck. Off road ... the adventure doesn't begin
until you get out of the truck to lock the hubs.
My $0.02.
Mike Mortick
> Richard Bishop wrote:
>
> >
> > ???? You have 4x4 but you got the truck with the lockout hubs? Why?
> >
> > Our 97 2500 HD chevy has 4x4 shift inside the cab. No hubs, everything done from
> > inside.
> >
>
Kurt,
I think we are in the minority but I completely agree. I would also like
to add that I dislike trucks with push button 4-wheel drive and push
button low ranges.
I always wondered if a fuse goes out do you lose your 4-wheel drive. I am
sure if the button goes out you will lose your 4-wheel drive. Right
now my Bronco's rear window defrost button is acting flaky so I am
sure glad I have a manual lever linkage to my transfer case.
Mike
SNOWMAN629
>this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
>back-up for 10 feet to disengage hubs).
And most people don't realize they need to do this... they may as well get the
manual hubs and leave them in the locked position.
Kenneth Carter
never had lockout hubs to deal with on any of the 4wd that I've owned.
Wouldn't the fact that you have to back up to disengage them be a problem
with some trailer combinations say a 5er with a boat on the back?
Ken...
SNOWMAN629 wrote in message
<199807170526...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Kurt Rajala
>
> Really, I didn't know that you had to back up to disengage them...
> >>this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
> >>back-up for 10 feet to disengage hubs).
> >
> >And most people don't realize they need to do this... they may as well get
> the
> >manual hubs and leave them in the locked position.
The bottom line with auto locking hubs is that you have to drive the
vehical in the opposite direction with 4x4 turned off in order to
disengage the hubs. Also, it needs to be in a straight line so that
the hubs are not side-loaded keeping them engaged. If you last went
forward in 4x4 and want to disengage hubs, turn off the 4x4 & back-up
in a straight line for 10 feet, or go forward if you were backing
last. It really only takes about 2 feet to disengage, but the
10 feet is a "safety margin" the auto manufacturers put in to help
you make sure your hubs are disengaged.
FWIW, I still prefer getting out of my truck & rotating the levers
on my manual hubs. The hubs are sturdier, fewer parts, and I always
know if they are engaged or disengaged by looking at them.
Richard Bishop
snowm...@aol.com (SNOWMAN629) wrote:
>>(Everyone with auto hubs should realize
>>this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
>>back-up for 10 feet to disengage hubs).
>
>And most people don't realize they need to do this... they may as well get the
>manual hubs and leave them in the locked position.
Chevys high 4 engages and disengages under power and at driving speeds. I've
NEVER backed up to disengage the 4x4 in high.
Sue
Richard Bishop
Mike Mortick <m...@evolving.com> wrote:
>Kurt Rajala wrote:
>
>> Richard Bishop wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > ???? You have 4x4 but you got the truck with the lockout hubs? Why?
>> >
>> > Our 97 2500 HD chevy has 4x4 shift inside the cab. No hubs, everything done from
>> > inside.
>> >
>>
>
>Kurt,
>
>I think we are in the minority but I completely agree. I would also like
>to add that I dislike trucks with push button 4-wheel drive and push
>button low ranges.
>
>I always wondered if a fuse goes out do you lose your 4-wheel drive. I am
>sure if the button goes out you will lose your 4-wheel drive. Right
>now my Bronco's rear window defrost button is acting flaky so I am
>sure glad I have a manual lever linkage to my transfer case.
>
Mine isn't pushbutton. It's manual lever. And 4-high can be shifted into on the
fly if you are driving down the road, see slick spots ahead, or it suddenly starts
snowing.
Sue
>Mike
>
>
>
>> I have a 1996 F250 PowerStroke 4x4 with manual locking hubs (my choice).
>> I went that way because when you lock them, you know that they are
>> engaged,
>> and when you set them to FREE, you know that they are disengaged. No
>> questions about it. I had other 4x4's with automatic hubs and never
>> knew for sure what the status of the front drive equipment was. Another
>> good reason for manual hubs is that auto hubs disengage and then
>> re-engage
>> every time you change direction. (Everyone with auto hubs should realize
>> this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
Ronald E. Bowser
>On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:29:18 GMT, Richard Bishop
snip
>3 4X4s in the driveway right now. 2 manual hubs, one "electronic", no
>hubs at all. Never had a trouble with manual. I usually have a good
>idea if there are going to be problems and lock them in advance. Had a
>Wagoneer with a vacuum shift arrangement - had to leave it in all the
>time in the cold - wouldn't shift unless it was warm.
The Dodge Ram is a vacuum motor engagement. Tried shifting mine last summer
and nothing. They claimed a burnt vacuum line, plus replaced some other unit.
Ron Bowser
Kurt Rajala
>
> In article <199807170526...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> snowm...@aol.com (SNOWMAN629) wrote:
>
> >>this since they tell you in your owners manual to shift off the 4x4 then
> >>back-up for 10 feet to disengage hubs).
> >
> >manual hubs and leave them in the locked position.
>
> Chevys high 4 engages and disengages under power and at driving speeds. I've
> NEVER backed up to disengage the 4x4 in high.
>
> Sue
50 mph
if I remember correct). GM, Ford, & Dodge along with the rest are
capable of
this. However, when you *turn off* your 4 high under power, your hubs
are
STILL engaged. You are just shifting the transfer case to only power
the
rear wheels instead of all 4. The hubs won't dis-engage until you stop
and
then back-up. This will eventually happen when you pull into/out of
parking
spots, but in the meantime, you are adding extra wear to your front
drive
system, and reducing your fuel mileage. Read your owner's manual, it
will
state that you can go into & out of 4 high under power, but to disengage
the
hubs....
I still prefer manual locking hubs. Haven't found a good enough
argument to
support auto hubs yet. Besides, knowing how they operate does not give
me
a good feeling that they are truely engaged when I want them or
disengaged
when I don't. If the weather is *really* that bad, probably shouldn't be
out there with a 4x4 either.
My $0.02.
Richard Bishop
Kurt Rajala <kra...@nospam.com> wrote:
Thanks! I need to go reread the manual.
>I still prefer manual locking hubs. Haven't found a good enough
>argument to
>support auto hubs yet. Besides, knowing how they operate does not give
>me
>a good feeling that they are truely engaged when I want them or
>disengaged
>when I don't. If the weather is *really* that bad, probably shouldn't be
>out there with a 4x4 either.
>
>My $0.02.
Sue
Lloyd
roads to some of the lakes/streams of Alberta, I would recommend either a
4 wheel drive or unlimited vacation time. <g>
Sometimes when it rains on those gravel roads they become a mixture of
clay, sand, and roller bearings (gravel). I've seen too many Class C's,
Fifth Wheel Combos, Class A's (now that is a SCARY sight to watch!)
trying to navigate up a medium hill, fish tailing from ditch edge to ditch
edge. One day I expect to see a fiver jack-knifed in the ditch.
Basically what I'm saying, in a long form, is that 4 wheel drive is a
option to those who prefer travel to remote camping sites, who may
experience adverse road conditions. If all they do is stay on pavement,
then 4 wheel drive is a waste of money.
Myself personally, I wouldn't even consider not ever owning a 4X4. Since
my truck is my only method of transportation year round, I prefer the
extra traction in the winter and yes Will, I do carry chains in the
winter, and a 60' towing rope, which I've used on many occasion to assist
stranded motorists.
Lloyd
wi...@epix.net wrote:
> In Article<#kVOgK0r9GA.271@upnetnews03>, <kkca...@email.msn.com>
> writes in part:
>
> > When pulling in winter you have to always remember that going is the
> >big problem... Stopping is! A 4x4 isn't going to help you one iota
> >when you that 5 tons of mass begins to take its own route
>
> Excellent post, with this part being (IMO) the best. So far, nobody
> seems to have mentioned that even with a heavy diesel in front, there
> is gonna be more weight on the drive axle of a truck towing a fiver,
> and if you cannot get through with 2wd, 4wd will make only a tiny
> difference in traction. Put on chains if it gets that bad.
>
> BTW I am no enemy of 4wd - if fact like them for serious navigation of
> mountain roads. Not because you need the front wheels pulling but
> because you can safely descend the steepest grades using low range!
> But unless very steep grades are part of your need/want scenario, 4wd
> for towing is simply not necessary.
>
> IMO
>
> Will KD3XR
GwenO MS
of course, and exploring. We just came back from a trip PA to Newfoundland and
Labrador, and used our brand new PS 250 4x4 and it met all of our expectations.
When going up some steep grades, we were easily able to pull a big 5W, but
sometimes the 18-wheelers in front of us were going so slowly that we would
stop, put the truck in Low Range, and just "go." It's great! Any questions?
e-mail us!
Gwen and Allan (proud owners of a brand new PS Diesel, 4x4)
Barry Sherman
[ citing someone else]
>>3 4X4s in the driveway right now. 2 manual hubs, one "electronic", no
>>hubs at all. Never had a trouble with manual. I usually have a good
>>idea if there are going to be problems and lock them in advance. Had a
>>Wagoneer with a vacuum shift arrangement - had to leave it in all the
>>time in the cold - wouldn't shift unless it was warm.
>The Dodge Ram is a vacuum motor engagement. Tried shifting mine last summer
>and nothing. They claimed a burnt vacuum line, plus replaced some other unit.
I saw and, to my extreme chagrin, can no longer locate, an article on how to
add a dashboard mounted vacuum switch to the vacuum line so that you can switch
into 4wd low range without actually engaging the front axles. This to provide
low range ultra-low gearing for slow speed maneuvering on pavement without
having wheel skip when doing sharp turns. Useful when backing a trailer into
a difficult campsite with a manual transmission. Every time that I have to
do so I curse Dodge for not giving me the option of having manually locking
hubs.
I don't suppose that anyone else saw the same article? I think that it
was in the Turbo Diesel Register but am not sure. I think that it got
lost in the shuffle when we moved recently. Much of the benefit of
the article was that it told where to order the valve and exactly
what valve to order, information that I don't have access to otherwise.
Barry Sherman
>Really, I didn't know that you had to back up to disengage them... I've
>never had lockout hubs to deal with on any of the 4wd that I've owned.
>Wouldn't the fact that you have to back up to disengage them be a problem
>with some trailer combinations say a 5er with a boat on the back?
>Ken...
Although this certainly only addresses a small percentage of shift-on-the-fly
4wds, my experience with a full size Ford Bronco and with a Ram 2500 4x4
is that not much backing is required. With either vehicle I could or can
hear a distinct noise when disengagement happens and it usually takes only
3 feet or so of backing for that to happen, even though the owners manuals
say to back 8 or 10 feet.
How do I know that the axles are fully disengaged? Because when they
*are* engaged I got/get serious wheel hop on dry pavement and it's
really obvious that the axles/hubs are engaged.
R.J.(Bob) Evans
>I had the option to get either the Manual or Automatic hubs but the Ford
>dealer told me that the Manual hubs were much heavier duty, in the long
>run required less maintenance, and they were on the truck with the
>features that I wanted.
>
>I don't really know which way to go on hubs. It is a pain to get out and
>lock them in but I have never tore up a set up manual hubs. So I can go
>either way.
My 2c worth
I bought my 250 Powersmoke with auto hubs and used it that way for
close to a year with no trouble. I had heard about people having
trouble and the dealer recommended that I swap to manual hubs but I
enjoyed the convenience of the auto so left them on. My previous
truck (an F150 with 351 had auto hubs and they gave absolutely no
problem) Eventually the auto hubs on the diesel let me down. I
dropped the front end into a peat hole on a side road. Should have
been no problem to crawl out of in 4WD. I pulled the lever and tried
reverse. The hubs conveniently ratchetted out of lockup and then back
in again. The same thing happened when I tried to go ahead. Do that
two or three times and a simple problem turns into a walk for help.
When I got back to town I made an appointment to have the manual hubs
installed. Ford warranty covered the changeover. We have a
Superduty on order for the business and I understand there is some new
auto hub system on it. Will be curious to see how that system holds
up.
The only drawback I can think of to the manual hubs is increased front
driveline wear because I am too lazy to twist the hubs or because I
forget to turn them. OTOH once the front drivetrain gets a little
wear on it you can pretty well tell from inside the cab whether or not
the hubs are engaged. ;-)
To get back to the subject of the thread, my personal thoughts on 4WD
are that it is damn nice to have but certainly not essential. As for
getting un-stuck my experience has been that the only difference
between 4WD and 2WD is the distance you have to walk when you do get
stuck and the length of cable required to get you out. My rule is to
drive in 2WD and use 4WD to escape when I get in trouble.
I do use 4LOW to hook up and maneuvre the 5W. Even with the front
hubs disengaged running through the reduction in the transfer case
makes it much easier to get into and out of campsites or to climb in
and out of tough spots. Also reduces the torque on that delicate Ford
tranny at the expense of some additional torque on the rest of the
driveline.
R.J.(Bob) Evans
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