Pontoon boat for rivers/rapids?
L. Burton Hawley
Rick Fletcher wrote:
>
> Jonathan McAnulty (nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam) wrote:
> : I can't say anything about pontoon boats. However, if you are talking
> : about the international whitewater scale (up to class 6) I would be very
> : leary of going down class 3 water in a pontoon boat. I wouldn't be
>
> Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
> western river where you can identify a Class 3 rapids? Like the American,
> Stanislaus, (or that other one in the same general vicinity) in Cali, or
> anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
I guess you have never done the drift from Trout Creek to Maupin on the
Deschutes. You can't tell me that White Horse Rapids is not class 3, as well
as Box Car.
-Burton
--
L. Burton Hawley
2330 NW Hummingbird
Corvallis, OR
Don Chen
Are there suggestions for a pontoon boat that is suitable for rivers
and rapids to Class 2 or 3?
don
Al Beatty
There are several pontoon craft that should serve you well. A Buck's
Bronco or a River Otter are two good options costing near the same
(about $800 give or take). A K2 drifter or Day Tripper is a little more
expensive and may be an option as well. I have a couple of older Water
Otters that has served my wife and I for the past several years. I've
had mine in grade 3 rapids on several occasions and found it to be very
stable as long as you keep you flippers out of the water and use the
oars to control the craft. Good luck.
--
Tight Lines ..... Al Beatty
BT's Fly Fishing Products
http://www.btsflyfishing.com
Jonathan McAnulty
Don Chen wrote:
>
> Are there suggestions for a pontoon boat that is suitable for rivers
> and rapids to Class 2 or 3?
Don,
I can't say anything about pontoon boats. However, if you are talking
about the international whitewater scale (up to class 6) I would be very
leary of going down class 3 water in a pontoon boat. I wouldn't be
surprised if someone claims they have done it or do it regularly but I
would remain skeptical that it was really class 3. In a class 3 rapid
you would have a good chance of getting your clock wound and probably
lose all of your gear, possibly even get hurt.
Just a thought.
Jon
Rick Fletcher
Jonathan McAnulty (nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam) wrote:
: I can't say anything about pontoon boats. However, if you are talking
: about the international whitewater scale (up to class 6) I would be very
: leary of going down class 3 water in a pontoon boat. I wouldn't be
: surprised if someone claims they have done it or do it regularly but I
: would remain skeptical that it was really class 3. In a class 3 rapid
: you would have a good chance of getting your clock wound and probably
: lose all of your gear, possibly even get hurt.
Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
western river where you can identify a Class 3 rapids? Like the American,
Stanislaus, (or that other one in the same general vicinity) in Cali, or
anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
I can't resist... I think a bigger pontoon boat works fine in Class 3. I
use a Buck's Bags Bronco. And I've seen the really large 2 , 3 and 4 man
boats do Class 4's on the Lochsa all the time. I saw one guy do two Class
4's (yes, they are real 4's) with a 12 year old girl on the front of each
pontoon. It looked stupid to me, but they held on all the way through.
Pontoon boats seem to be much more common these days... they are more
stable to tipping than rafts and are more controllable.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
--
Rick
T. Rick Fletcher - http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/
Associate professor of chemistry | That's Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem
University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem
Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don't grow potatoes. | ad hominem
Don Chen
let...@goshawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (Rick Fletcher) wrote:
Maybe I should have added that I would like to use whatever pontoon
boat both on lakes as well as running rivers. Yes, I realize there is
no one boat that will excel in both situations. I just want to be
able to do both with a small measure of safety.
Is the complaint about pontoon boats because most are inflatables
versus hard pontoons like Hobies? Or is it because the rider is too
exposed? Would having pontoons that form a V shape in the front
better?
Thanks for the comments so far.
don
Jonathan McAnulty
Rick Fletcher wrote:
>
> Jonathan McAnulty (nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam) wrote:
> : I can't say anything about pontoon boats. However, if you are talking
> : about the international whitewater scale (up to class 6) I would be very
> : leary of going down class 3 water in a pontoon boat. I wouldn't be
> : surprised if someone claims they have done it or do it regularly but I
> : would remain skeptical that it was really class 3. In a class 3 rapid
> : you would have a good chance of getting your clock wound and probably
> : lose all of your gear, possibly even get hurt.
>
> Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
> western river where you can identify a Class 3 rapids? Like the American,
> Stanislaus, (or that other one in the same general vicinity) in Cali, or
> anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
> I can't resist... I think a bigger pontoon boat works fine in Class 3. I
> use a Buck's Bags Bronco. And I've seen the really large 2 , 3 and 4 man
> boats do Class 4's on the Lochsa all the time. I saw one guy do two Class
> 4's (yes, they are real 4's) with a 12 year old girl on the front of each
> pontoon. It looked stupid to me, but they held on all the way through.
> Pontoon boats seem to be much more common these days... they are more
> stable to tipping than rafts and are more controllable.
>
> Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Well, wrong is relative not absolute. However, when you say pontoon
boats I envision the fishing craft with the variable length relatively
small diameter tubes (8" diam.???) which some people even carry
back-pack style. I have never heard of a fishing pontoon boat that
carried more than one person (correct me here if I am not aware of all
the products out there). What you seem to be referring to (I could be
wrong since I didn't see the boats you reference) are called catarafts.
These are oar rigs with two large diameter raft type tubes (sort of the
Godzilla of pontoon craft- pontoon tubes are 18-24" diameter rubber or
PVC) and are made for heavier whitewater and can carry multiple
passengers. Swim fins or the little oars provided with fishing pontoon
craft have no place in the motive power of catarafts. These are full
sized craft that can take anything a large raft can deal with and are
more maneuverable to boot. Sections of the Lochsa are class IV and IV+
at higher flows (been there, done that- seen some incredible trashings
in the really big holes at flood levels). If someone took one of the
fishing pontoon boats down it I want to be there with my video camera
because I know I would see some action! To give examples of class III
rapids, hmm. Its tough to pick a given stretch of water as an example of
class III and will, of course, depend on the flow levels. However, one
example to cite would be the section of the Madison below the first
bridge after the outflow from Quake lake. This is the rapids section
with a number of rocks and small hydraulics. This would be a class II
(maybe II+) but not class III except at high water. Even this I would
think would require at least one of the larger (9' long tubes?- don't
hold me to that number as I don't know these specific boats well)
fishing pontoon boats. Most class III rapids have hydraulics with enough
size and force to be rather problematic in this type of boat assuming
you were unable to avoid them. Another example would be the lower
section of the Upper South Fork of the Salmon before the confluence with
the East Fork of the South Fork (which is near Yellow Pine, Idaho). This
is class III most of the time in late June, say at about flows of 3.5'
on the Krassel gauge. The upper South Fork is class IV-V. Sorry, I've
never had the pleasure to paddle in CA (plenty in Idaho but that is as
far west as I have gone). As a caveat and disclaimer I am looking at
this from the whitewater side. I have paddled water up to class V in
kayak and at lesser difficulties in C-2 for almost 18 years. I also have
a raft with oar rig good for up to class IV (IMO). I have never had a
pontoon boat that is made for fishing on the water. My main input
relates to what I know regarding the trashing you can get on the river
even in seemingly moderate difficulty rapids. I felt compelled to
respond because I think fisherman are a group that tend to be at risk in
rapids since they often have not had experience with the power of the
river as is known to whitewater boaters (clearly there are always
exceptions) and can inadvertently put themselves in jeopardy. If you
want to know about deaths in rapids you should check out the AWA journal
(American Whitewater Assoc.). This prints incident reports in a safety
section from around the world (mainly U.S.) of deaths and close calls on
whitewater. Many accidents are relevant to flyfishers that wade in fast
water deeper than your knees. It should also be clarified that this
posting refers to the international scale I-VI. There is a Western
rafting scale (1-10) that is a local rating system generally disregarded
by the rest of the world that often adds confusion when discussing
rapids ratings, particularly in the West.
If that really was a fishing pontoon boat with 4 people on it paddling
the upper Lochsa rapids would you email me immediately the next time you
think they might do it again? That kind of video footage is worth some
real money! ;-)
Jon
Jonathan McAnulty
Don Chen wrote:
> Maybe I should have added that I would like to use whatever pontoon
> boat both on lakes as well as running rivers. Yes, I realize there is
> no one boat that will excel in both situations. I just want to be
> able to do both with a small measure of safety.
> Is the complaint about pontoon boats because most are inflatables
> versus hard pontoons like Hobies? Or is it because the rider is too
> exposed? Would having pontoons that form a V shape in the front
> better?
> Thanks for the comments so far.
No, its really a design issue when you start venturing into harder
rapids (class III). Then you need larger pontoons for more buoyancy, a
longer boat to prevent end-over-end cartwheeling or side-over-side
windowshading if caught in a hydraulic, to give more stability by being
relatively longer and wider compared to the seat height and longer
stronger oars for more power. Inflatables are good in rapids because
they give when you hit rocks. The rubber, generally Hypalon in the big
rigs, is very tough. My only real point is that if you buy a fishing
pontoon boat and you want to explore and then get a river guide book
that says the rapids in a stretch are class III, then my hearty
recommendation is do not float that section unless the boat is designed
to handle whitewater. On the other hand, this kind of whitewater boat
would be overkill on a lake or smooth moving water. When you said class
III in your original post I felt compelled to extend a friendly
cautionary note, that's all.
Jon
Allen Matsumoto
Don Chen wrote:
>
> let...@goshawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (Rick Fletcher) wrote:
>
> >Jonathan McAnulty (nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam) wrote:
> >: I can't say anything about pontoon boats. However, if you are talking
> >: about the international whitewater scale (up to class 6) I would be very
> >: leary of going down class 3 water in a pontoon boat. I wouldn't be
> >: surprised if someone claims they have done it or do it regularly but I
> >: would remain skeptical that it was really class 3. In a class 3 rapid
> >: you would have a good chance of getting your clock wound and probably
> >: lose all of your gear, possibly even get hurt.
>
> >Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
> >western river where you can identify a Class 3 rapids? Like the American,
> >Stanislaus, (or that other one in the same general vicinity) in Cali, or
> >anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
>
> >I can't resist... I think a bigger pontoon boat works fine in Class 3. I
> >use a Buck's Bags Bronco. And I've seen the really large 2 , 3 and 4 man
> >boats do Class 4's on the Lochsa all the time. I saw one guy do two Class
> >4's (yes, they are real 4's) with a 12 year old girl on the front of each
> >pontoon. It looked stupid to me, but they held on all the way through.
>
> >Pontoon boats seem to be much more common these days... they are more
> >stable to tipping than rafts and are more controllable.
>
> >Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
> >Rick
> >T. Rick Fletcher - http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/
> >Associate professor of chemistry | That's Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem
> >University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem
> >Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don't grow potatoes. | ad hominem
>
> boat both on lakes as well as running rivers. Yes, I realize there is
> no one boat that will excel in both situations. I just want to be
> able to do both with a small measure of safety.
>
> Is the complaint about pontoon boats because most are inflatables
> versus hard pontoons like Hobies? Or is it because the rider is too
> exposed? Would having pontoons that form a V shape in the front
> better?
>
> Thanks for the comments so far.
>
Two thoughts:
If you want to fish both rivers and lakes, you have to get a river boat.
It won't track as well on flatwater, but on a river you need the
manueverability and a lake boat will not be safe. Pontoons with rocker
is what you are looking for. The flatwater boats have constant-diameter
tubes like big hot dogs.
Regarding the comment made on another post about fishers getting in over
their heads because they are not familiar with the potential power of
whitewater: I approach this like eating wild mushrooms. It doesn't
matter how much it looks like the one in the book, or what others have
told me about this particular area, I don't do it for any given species
until I have accompanied an experienced expert and picked and eaten with
them. On a river, I want to make the run with someone who is real
familiar with that stretch before I ever try it myself. Maybe with a lot
more experience I will feel like I can predict a new river just from
rating and observation, but until then...
Fish on,
Allen
David Delacey
On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Jonathan McAnulty wrote:
> However, when you say pontoon
> boats I envision the fishing craft with the variable length relatively
> small diameter tubes (8" diam.???) which some people even carry
> back-pack style.
A shop in town carries small, one-man catarafts. They're the same size
as any other pontoon fishing rig, but the pontoons are rockered and made
of PVC. I don't paddle, but they look like they'd handle pretty well to
me. I guess people float sections of the Deschutes, Rogue, etc. on them,
but I don't know how difficult of water they do...
FWIW,
Dave DeLacey
Corvallis, Or.
> Jon
>
>
Charlie Quinton
Don Chen writes:
>Are there suggestions for a pontoon boat that is suitable for rivers
>and rapids to Class 2 or 3?
>
article a month or two ago where they compared various brands and designs
for different kinds of water. worth reading if you can locate it.
If you're looking for a boat that you can take "anywhere," I'd recommend
getting something that will handle the class 3 rapids. you'll lose
tracking and expend more effort on stillwaters, but maneuverability on
the fast water is much, much more important.
CQ
(remove z's to reply)
L. Burton Hawley
Rick Fletcher wrote:
>
> L. Burton Hawley (haw...@ucs.orst.edu) wrote:
> : Rick Fletcher wrote:
> : > Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
> : > western river where you can identify a Class 3 rapids? Like the
> : > anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
>
> : I guess you have never done the drift from Trout Creek to Maupin on the
> : Deschutes. You can't tell me that White Horse Rapids is not class 3, as
>
> mean to imply there are no class 3 (or III for purists) rapids in the
> west... I wanted to get an idea of the type of rapid Jon was worried
> about. I was asking for examples to try and determine in my own mind if I
> would try them in my pontoon boat. As it turns out from private email, I
> might try the rapids he worries about. Or I might not.
Okay, I get your point! I certainly wouldn't want to go down a class 3 in a
pontoon boat myself, or in some cases maybe even some 2's or 2 1/2's like the
Trout Creek Rapids.
Rick Fletcher
L. Burton Hawley (haw...@ucs.orst.edu) wrote:
: Rick Fletcher wrote:
: > Hmmm.... OK, I won't say anything. Could you give an example of a
: > Stanislaus, (or that other one in the same general vicinity) in Cali, or
: > anything in Idaho or Washington and most in Oregon? Thanks.
: I guess you have never done the drift from Trout Creek to Maupin on the
: Deschutes. You can't tell me that White Horse Rapids is not class 3, as well
: as Box Car.
Actually I have done that river. But you misread my intent. I did not
mean to imply there are no class 3 (or III for purists) rapids in the
west... I wanted to get an idea of the type of rapid Jon was worried
about. I was asking for examples to try and determine in my own mind if I
would try them in my pontoon boat. As it turns out from private email, I
might try the rapids he worries about. Or I might not.
--
Lawrence A. Wade
Hi,
On the classic South Fork American run (put in at Chili Bar), the
toughest drops (e.g. meatgrinder) are class III. If you need more
comparisons try Cassidy and Calhoun (sp?) 'California Whitewater.'
Chuck Stanley and Lars Holbeck wrote a guide to 'the best whitewater in
California.' The titles are probably paraphrased but should be good
enough to find in your local library. This information should also
prove interesting to fishermen as stream access points are well
described.
If you need more information you can contact me directly.
Cheers,
Larry
Jonathan McAnulty
L. Burton Hawley wrote:
> Rick Fletcher wrote:
> > L. Burton Hawley (haw...@ucs.orst.edu) wrote:
> > : I guess you have never done the drift from Trout Creek to Maupin on the
> > : Deschutes. You can't tell me that White Horse Rapids is not class 3, as
> >
> > mean to imply there are no class 3 (or III for purists) rapids in the
> > west... I wanted to get an idea of the type of rapid Jon was worried
> > about. I was asking for examples to try and determine in my own mind if I
> > would try them in my pontoon boat. As it turns out from private email, I
> > might try the rapids he worries about. Or I might not.
>
> pontoon boat myself, or in some cases maybe even some 2's or 2 1/2's like the
> Trout Creek Rapids.
>
original post I made the mistake of not recognizing or knowing about
some of the more aggressive designs of one man pontoon boats versus the
lake pontoon boats I am more familiar with. Combine these more
aggressive designs with an experienced oarsman and there is no reason
not to float the more open class III's (or whatever you're comfortable
with). However, the main point of view I was espousing was based on my
personal experience teaching white water paddling to boaters of all
levels. In particular, inexperienced beginners are vulnerable because
they don't understand moving water and what it can do to you. Thus, they
put a lot of weight on the class designation of a stretch of water to
decide if it can or should be floated since this is supposed to be an
objective measure of difficulty and risk. However, the problem with the
system is 1) not all class III's are the same difficulty; 2) there is a
very big jump in difficulty between class II and class IV- all of which
are considered class III; 3) communicating the river class difficulties
is variable and word-of-mouth on one stretch that has been done may be
compared to ratings in a guide book (which tend to be more accurate in
general for the broad public). Ratings given by word-of-mouth gets you
both upgrade and downgrade of ratings for a given rapid. An example is
that paddlers may often downgrade how they rate a rapid before they
paddle it if they really want to get on. Once it is done the rating is
upgraded as it then gives greater personal cachet since they have now
done it. The opposite tends to happen to upper grade paddlers where
anything they go down is not greater than class V. Also, rapids which
used to be called class V are now class IV since they are run routinely
and some low IV's become III's in their mind because of a high skill
level which makes these runs too easy. Thus, beginners can get sucked in
and hammered even when trying to be conscientious.
One interesting question that comes to mind. When you are floating class
III rapids in a pontoon boat, do you think you should be wearing a
helmet? I would be surprised if many fisherman do except for the few
that combine adventure boating with flyfishing.
As a final disclaimer/back peddle: I never was trying to say that nobody
should be floating class III in a pontoon boat. I was merely advising a
little caution. I think Alan M.'s approach is the way to go.
Cheers.
Jon
Kevin Griggs
I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop. It is made by
Outcast Co. in Boise, ID. I was extremely impressed with the design and
quality. I think it is the finest pontoon boat I have ever seen. They
say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater. (If anyone was crazy
enough to try!) They don't have a homepage but if you search the net,
you can get their address.
--
Kevin Griggs
http://www.apeleon.net/~kgriggs/index.html
Jonathan McAnulty
James A. Bucklew wrote:
>> Kevin Griggs wrote:
> > I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop.
> ...snip...
> > They
> > say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater.
> ...snip...
> Jon McAnulty wrote:
> In a word. No. Maybe 6/10 (which is class III+). This would be pushing
> it with rods, etc. I won't belabor it. Check my previous posts on this
> topic.
>
Come on Jon. Don't you think you're being a little pessimistic???
The boat CAN probably handle it....its just that there wouldn't
be any survivors.
Ha! Maybe. Class VI though,.....hmm, good chance there would be no boat
left either.
Say, I wonder if they warranty that boat like they do for flyrods. As
long as you could recover one piece you could get a replacement.
Jon
James A. Bucklew
Kevin Griggs wrote:
>
> I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop.
...snip...
> They
> say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater.
...snip...
Jon McAnulty wrote:
In a word. No. Maybe 6/10 (which is class III+). This would be pushing
it with rods, etc. I won't belabor it. Check my previous posts on this
topic.
Jon
Come on Jon. Don't you think you're being a little pessimistic???
The boat CAN probably handle it....its just that there wouldn't
be any survivors.
jim
Jonathan McAnulty
Kevin Griggs wrote:
>
> I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop.
...snip...
> They
> say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater.
...snip...
In a word. No. Maybe 6/10 (which is class III+). This would be pushing
Barry Brown
Jonathan McAnulty <nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam> wrote in
article <336E4E...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam>...
> James A. Bucklew wrote:
> >> Kevin Griggs wrote:
> > > I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop.
> > ...snip...
> > > They
> > > say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater.
> > ...snip...
>
Jon...I suspect that whoever you talked with at the "Fly Shop" has never
even seen Class 6 whitewater. I've tried a few of the pontoon boats as I'm
an avid float tuber and have been for over thirty years. All craft have
their place...and their limitations. There is no perfect craft. For ANY
salesman to push the pontoon boat on someone using the sales pitch that it
will handle Class 6 whitewater, is outrageous. If you want to handle
whitewater, get the appropriate boat for it and the proper training. I use
a drift boat for the whitewater and a custom designed "U" boat for my float
tube...and a mini-drifter for the in-between stuff. I've not had the need
for a pontoon boat but am not going to throw rocks at anyone who loves
them. But I am prepared to throw rocks at the makers of most (not all)
pontoon boats who say they are designed for heavy whitewater. Most are
not. Those that are, usually don't meet the needs of the flyfisherman who
is also going to use it on lakes and lagoons.
Barry Brown
Jonathan McAnulty
Barry Brown wrote:
> Jon...I suspect that whoever you talked with at the "Fly Shop" ..snip..
Barry,
I agree with you 100%. Check my previous posts on this subject. However,
you have your attributions above wrong. I think it was Kevin that
originally posted on this. Check Deja News if you can't find the
previous posts.
Jon
Steve Anderson
>> I recently looked at a pontoon boat at a local fly shop.
>...snip...
>> They
>> say it is designed to handle class 6 whitewater.
>...snip...
That's sad. That clown at the "local fly" shop is going to get
someone killed. I did whitewater in my younger years, worked as a
guide, etc. Been there, done that. Moving water is a powerful force.
If you play around it long enough, it will teach you that lesson.
I now own a canoe and a "pontoon" style float tube. Without proper
floatation gear for the boat and sensible safety gear, the canoe
doesn't belong on even Class III water.
IMHO, taking a float tube or a pontoon on even Class III is a death
wish. You *will* get hurt (if not killed), probably sooner than
later.
Heed the advice given by some others here: use equipment and get
training appropriate for the conditions.
Steve Anderson
ste...@anderson-auto.com
adley...@gmail.com
> Are there suggestions for a pontoon boat that is suitable for rivers
> and rapids to Class 2 or 3?
>
I hope this link will be helpful for you: Pontoon Boat Guide @http://www.pontoonboatguide.com