Ceviche
Lazarus Cooke
son-in-law. He is a very good cook, and makes a neat ceviche.
I'd like to try it with trout, but know that trout and salmon are full
of parasites that aren't good for us, and should never be used as
sashimi.
Does anyone know if the process of making ceviche kills these parasites?
I've looked through the Roffian archives (My! arent't they dusty? 限
and didn't we all look young, fresh and eager in those days?) and apart
from this splendid exchange:-
> Wes Peterson wrote:
> > The French call this raw fish preparation ceviche.
> What a coincidence ! That's EXACTLY what the Mexicans call it.
> :-)
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
.... I couldn't see much that helped.
Lazarus,
who is about to cycle into Brixton market to see if he can find some
sea-bass, on this, the second sunny day of the year in London.
rdean3...@flash.net
Well, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground, as does "salmon and trout"
(certain salmon is fine as sashimi/sushi/negiri - "sake"), but if you
mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
"raw," no, it won't. IMO, neither "trout" or "salmon" ceviche sound
very good, anyway, but, hey, YMMV...
TC,
R
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> Well, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground, as does "salmon and trout"
> (certain salmon is fine as sashimi/sushi/negiri - "sake"), but if you
> mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
> every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
> "raw," no, it won't. IMO, neither "trout" or "salmon" ceviche sound
> very good, anyway, but, hey, YMMV...
>
I'm not sure how much ground it covers. The wikipedia definition: 'a
form of citrus-marinated seafood salad, popular in many Latin American
countries' seems simple and succinct.
But if I need to elaborate, I mean raw fish marinated in citrus juice -
ideally the juice of a fruit called 'limon' in Central/south America
and in Cuba - that is midway between lemon and lime in european terms.
(I'd use a mixture of lemon and lime juice).
On 'salmon' and 'trout' I agree, I was a bit vague, being in Europe. I
meant the only two beasties known here under those names, viz. salmo
salar and salmo trutta - especially in my case those caught by me in
fresh water.
I'm not sure whether it'd taste good or not - I know it's normally made
in Chile with turbot or sea-bass - but I'd like to try.
I don't think freshwater salmon is safe in sashimi - I think it's
heated before eating when one eats it thus, as is mackeral (sp??).
And I'm disappointed that
> if you
> mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
> every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
> "raw," no, it won't.
Any elaboration on sources, details etc?
Thanks for the help.
Lazarus
Lazarus
Dave LaCourse
<lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote:
>Spent easter in Italy with my daughter, grand-daughter and my Chilean
>son-in-law. He is a very good cook, and makes a neat ceviche.
I had a taste of Chilean ceviche last month while in Patagonia. I
didn't care for it. However, the ceviche I had in Panama many years
ago was excellent, and it was made with barracuda. The only ceviche I
have seen, other than in Chile, was made with barracuda.
I seriously doubt any trout or salman would make good ceviche.
Besides, they are much better pan fried, baked, or grilled.
Dave
rdean3...@flash.net
<lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote:
>In article <eoa324loubf6at2d3...@4ax.com>,
><rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground, as does "salmon and trout"
>> (certain salmon is fine as sashimi/sushi/negiri - "sake"), but if you
>> mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
>> every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
>> "raw," no, it won't. IMO, neither "trout" or "salmon" ceviche sound
>> very good, anyway, but, hey, YMMV...
>>
>I'm not sure how much ground it covers. The wikipedia definition: 'a
>form of citrus-marinated seafood salad, popular in many Latin American
>countries' seems simple and succinct.
>
>But if I need to elaborate, I mean raw fish marinated in citrus juice -
>ideally the juice of a fruit called 'limon' in Central/south America
>and in Cuba - that is midway between lemon and lime in european terms.
>(I'd use a mixture of lemon and lime juice).
Well, this is exactly what I mean by "covering a lot of ground," i.e.,
ceviche in, say, the US gulf coast (TX, LA, MS, AL, FL) will be
overwhelmingly "lime" juice - either Persian or Key, whereas further
south, it'll be, as you say, "limon," which really isn't readily
available outside those areas. And "seafood" covers a lot of ground -
various fishes, shrimp/prawn/lobster/crab, oysters and clams,
squid/calamari, even conch, etc., etc., etc. I've had about as many
different variations on ceviche as I have on gumbo - trust me, that's a
lot of variations...
>
>On 'salmon' and 'trout' I agree, I was a bit vague, being in Europe. I
>meant the only two beasties known here under those names, viz. salmo
>salar and salmo trutta - especially in my case those caught by me in
>fresh water.
>
>I'm not sure whether it'd taste good or not - I know it's normally made
>in Chile with turbot or sea-bass - but I'd like to try.
Good choices, as are snapper, cobia/lemonfish/ling, and several other
species, many of which are geographic location-dependent.
>
>I don't think freshwater salmon is safe in sashimi - I think it's
>heated before eating when one eats it thus, as is mackeral (sp??).
Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.
>
>And I'm disappointed that
Look/ask for "sake" in a trusted sushi bar - I offer no warranty,
expressed or implied...
>
>> if you
>> mean to ask if citrus fruit juice will kill all fish-borne parasites in
>> every fresh- or salt-water fish and/or make it safe for all to consume
>> "raw," no, it won't.
>
>Any elaboration on sources, details etc?
I'd offer that a Google of "Anisakiasis ceviche" would produce a wealth
of info, and certainly a number of places to start if you REALLY want to
look into it.
If you want the bottom line, it's that a short soak in citrus juice
won't kill every potential nasty. The acid in the citrus juice really
just causes a protein reaction in the seafood that makes it looked
"cooked," it doesn't (obviously) "cook" it in the traditional sense, nor
is it a substitute for the heat that kills various nasties in
"traditional" "cooking."
A favorite recipe for us is:
fish, cubed about 1/2" - 15mm or so
shrimp _lightly_ steamed _and then_ peeled
oysters, if in season
lump crabmeat
pico de gallo (tomatoes, chiles, onions, avocados, all diced about like
the fish, cilantro/coriander _leaves_, vinegar, cumin/comino powder,
garlic, salt and pepper, a shot of lemon juice)
squid/calamari rings, if fresh-caught
lime juice
and depending on who's eating, some more chiles (whatever milder chile
is handy - about up to jalapeno or so)
Mix and let macerate for a coupla hours or so. Eat with saltine
crackers, corn tortillas, or your hands, depending...
We make this while fishing, on the beach, and at home, though mainly
when the seafood is fresh-caught.
>
>Thanks for the help.
You're welcome, and hope the above helps, too,
R
>
>Lazarus
>
>Lazarus
rdean3...@flash.net
<lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote:
PS - "sake" when describing salmon is pronounced, generally, "sha-kay,"
rather than, generally, "sa-ki," as in the beverage/wine.
TC,
R
rw
of 2006, using whatever ocean fish I managed to catch. I liked it, but
no one else in my party would touch it. :-)
--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.
Conan The Librarian
> [snippage]
>
> Well, typically, sake is Pacific salmon and it's frozen like tuna before
> raw service. I eat it, have for years, and with never a problem - I
> just don't think it would make tasty ceviche.
FWIW, when Carol and I were in Hawaii, we had a dish called
lomi-lomi salmon. IIRC, it was made with raw (salted?) salmon, onions,
lime juice, tomatoes and maybe a bit of red pepper flakes.
I know it's not ceviche, but it was a similar idea. I'm guessing
they probably froze it like you mention above to make it safe.
Chuck Vance (btw, the lomi-lomi was very good)
rdean3...@flash.net
Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
what you had anything like it? And my feelings toward a salmon
"ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.
TC,
R
Conan The Librarian
> Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
> call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
> I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
> kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
> double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
> what you had anything like it?
Nope, it wasn't smoked at all. I don't know if this was the
"traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi, but it was in a little dive on
Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have any reason to doubt that
it was authentic.
As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
could have passed for it.
> And my feelings toward a salmon
> "ceviche" are more that it would be both an inappropriate fish and a
> waste to make "ceviche" out of it - picture, if you will, chicken-fried
> trout for something akin to my feeling toward salmon ceviche.
I don't totally disagree with you, because I could do just fine if I
never ate salmon any way but smoked. All else being equal, I'd be happy
with shrimp ceviche exclusively.
Chuck Vance
rdean3...@flash.net
<cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
>rdean3...@flash.net wrote:
>
>> Interesting. I've never had lomi-lomi salmon that was like what I would
>> call "ceviche," but hey, like I said, "ceviche" covers a lot of ground.
>> I thought it was smoked salmon, which by itself wouldn't necessarily
>> kill all the nasties, but freezing first and then smoking is sort of a
>> double whammy. Are you familiar with cold-smoked salmon? If so, was
>> what you had anything like it?
>
> Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.
Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.
>I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi
Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"
>, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
>any reason to doubt that it was authentic.
I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
to comment re: "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
standing, but ???
>
> As far as the similarity to ceviche -- that's what caught my
>attention. Throw in some cilantro and a few serrano peppers and it
>could have passed for it.
>
TC,
R
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
Hi thanks RD - yes I know the stuff. My normal saturday lunch if I'm in
the West End of London would be a sashimi set of sake and maguro.And
thanks for the recipe and the name of the parasite I was thinking
about.
Sake is, of course, as you say, frozen not heated to kill of the bugs.
But mackrel - saba - is cured in salt and vinegar, not just to alter
the flavour o0f the fish, but to kill off bugs (in shime-saba). I don't
think the Japaneses normally eat saba without some sort of protective
process..
Lazarus
Conan The Librarian
> On Thu, 08 May 2008 11:48:39 -0500, Conan The Librarian
> <cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
>
>> Nope, it wasn't smoked at all.
>
> Well, that's why I asked about _cold_ smoked (or cured) - if you're not
> familiar with it, it's markedly different that hot smoked.
Yep. I'm familiar with the process, as I'm a huge fan of various
smoked meats/fish/etc. I even considered converted an old refrigerator
to a "smokehouse", but that project got set aside some time ago, and now
I just use a Brinkman upright for hot-smoking salmon, ribs, chicken, etc.
>>I don't know if this was the "traditional" preparation of lomi-lomi
>
> Neither do I...and in fact, don't know if it is "traditional," something
> recently adapted, or even just something recently "invented"
>
>>, but it was in a little dive on Kauai (the Aloha Cafe, IIRC), so I don't have
>>any reason to doubt that it was authentic.
>
> I know very little about true "native" Hawaiian food: I don't like poi,
> but do like much of the other stiuff I've tried, and I understand, but
> don't _know_, that much of what is now considered "Hawaiian" food is
> late 19th-to-20th century introduction/adaptation from the US mainland,
> Japan, other islands, etc. That's about it, so I have no basis on which
> to comment re: "authentic." I'd wonder how/why Hawaiians got their
> hands on salmon for it to be a typical "traditional" dish of any long
> standing, but ???
Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.
I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
Japanese cuisine.
Chuck Vance
rdean3...@flash.net
<cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
Japan) and no version of salmo <whatever>, correct? Any indication of
the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?
And speaking of origin...
This might be wandering a bit (if anyone is still following it) - I
didn't qualify my response to Lazarus beyond using the word "Pacific,"
assuming since he used the word "salmo" he knew the difference, but to
make sure: when I have spoken of raw "salmon"/"sake," I have meant
Pacific salmon, oncowhatever, not any form of Atlantic salmon, salmo
<whatever> or saltwater browns. And while fully acknowledging it to be
a personal thing, when I think of cold-smoked or cured salmon, I think
salmo/Atlantic, when I think of hot-smoked, it could be either, and when
I think of anything involving raw, it's Pacific/oncowhatever.
TC,
R
>
> Chuck Vance
>
>
Conan The Librarian
> On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:24:14 -0500, Conan The Librarian
> <cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
>
>> Poor choice of words on my part. My comment was simply intended to
>>note that while you mentioned that the lomi-lomi you had eaten was made
>>with smoked salmon, the stuff I had was definitely not smoked, and I had
>>no reason to believe it was any less "authentic" than the version you
>>had eaten. And it was definitely similar to ceviche.
>>
>> I'd expect the use of salmon is probably linked to the Japanese
>>influence you mention above. I know that some of the high-end
>>restaurants we ate at featured menus that were heavily-influenced by
>>Japanese cuisine.
>
> OK, first, let's clarify - if I understand what you are saying, what you
> had was raw (and not cold-smoked or cured) "Pacific" salmon (pink,
> Amago, whatever - oncowhatsis - since you attribute what you had to
> Japan) and no version of salmo <whatever>, correct? Any indication of
> the salmon's origin - east or west (Amago, etc.)?
Hell, all I know is that it was called salmon, looked like salmon
and tasted like salmon (not trout).
Chuck Vance
rdean3...@flash.net
<cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
Which "salmon" - Pacific salmon (onco-whatsis
morelatiniforgotatthemoment), like sake in a sushi bar, or Atlantic
salmon (salmo salar) preparations*?
* - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
different regions/cultures.
And that's why I asked you if it could have been cold-smoked/cured - at
casual glance, Atlantic cold-smoked/cured salmon, if put into a
ceviche-like dish with acids from citrus, tomato, peppers/chiles, etc.
might appear to be raw Pacific salmon, ala sake in a sushi bar if one is
simply eating-enjoying and not analyzing (not familiar with all of the
varieties). I'm not saying it _would_ appear as such, because I have no
idea, never having tried such, but when a lemon wheel is placed on sake,
it tends to make it look heat-cooked (ala a light poaching), whereas
when placed on cold-smoked/cured Atlantic salmon, it tends to have
little effect IME, leaving it looking the more or less the same - sorta
raw in appearance to one not familiar with it.
TC,
R
>
>
> Chuck Vance
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
> * - like gravlax, lox, various Scottish dishes, etc.,, some of which is
> served also raw (from northern climates - Norway, Denmark?), but I've
> never seen "salmon" from the British Isles served raw. And this is why
> I was hesitant to initially assume what Lazarus meant - "salmon" is a
> broad term, meaning different things to different people and in
> different regions/cultures.
>
Hi RD
thanks for all this, and I agree with your need for precision. Since
the last post I've looked around, and discovered that that nasty
parasite is more common in Pacific salmon than in Atlantic, but is
pretty common in all wild salmon, (although not in farmed fish, for
obvious reasons if you can be bothered to go through the life cycle of
the parasite).
In fact, if you do a google on ceviche and salmon and uk , you will
come across lots of recipes for cevche of Atlantic salmon, including
some from big-name chefs, which make no mention of the parasite
problem (possibly they assume that all salmon is farmed, possibly
they're ignorant.)
Anyway, thanks for your input, which has helped me, and which I hope
may help some others.
Lazarus
rdean3...@flash.net
I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
matter, as it were. I got 180 hits, and the when the first recipe I saw
was called scallop ceviche with salmon and involved sauteed scallops and
smoked salmon and the second had no lime, tomatoes, peppers, onions,
etc., but did have salt and sugar, cucumbers, and sour(ed) cream and
described itself as a tartare-like dish, I quit. When I Googled
"ceviche salmon UK" I got lots more hits, but still saw nothing that was
clearly using _raw_ salmo salar from the UK. I did see one using
"farmed salmon" (which is mostly Atlantic salmon "farmed" in the
Pacific...) which would be nothing like using wild salmo salar from the
UK and some using "smoked salmon" with no further description. Bottom
line for me is that I'll not be making any "salmon ceviche," and if I
want anything besides beef in my tartare, it would be tuna, but that's
not really "tartare," IMO.
And there are more than the worms/larvae as nasties in "salmon," so keep
that in mind when eating any raw "salmon" whatever the source.
TC,
R
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
> I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
> 'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
> matter, as it were. I got 180 hits, and the when the first recipe I saw
> was called scallop ceviche with salmon and involved sauteed scallops and
> smoked salmon and the second had no lime, tomatoes, peppers, onions,
> etc., but did have salt and sugar, cucumbers, and sour(ed) cream and
> described itself as a tartare-like dish, I quit. When I Googled
> "ceviche salmon UK" I got lots more hits, but still saw nothing that was
> clearly using _raw_ salmo salar from the UK. I did see one using
> "farmed salmon" (which is mostly Atlantic salmon "farmed" in the
> Pacific...) which would be nothing like using wild salmo salar from the
> UK and some using "smoked salmon" with no further description. Bottom
> line for me is that I'll not be making any "salmon ceviche," and if I
> want anything besides beef in my tartare, it would be tuna, but that's
> not really "tartare," IMO.
>
> And there are more than the worms/larvae as nasties in "salmon," so keep
> that in mind when eating any raw "salmon" whatever the source.
>
> TC,
> R
>
Hi RD
see for example
(Gordon Ramsay ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Ramsay ) is as big
as it gets in the UK)
http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/591238
and
http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm
'Salmon' in the UK means Salmo salar. Nearly all of it is farmed (not
in the pacific - in coastal regions of Scotland and Ireland to the
great detriment of wild salmon/seatrout runs)
If I try it, and live, I'll let you know.
Otherwise assume that the xperiment was fatal
Lazarus
rdean3...@flash.net
Ahhhh...OK. First, I know Gordon Ramsay and agree that he is among the
biggies in the UK right now (but is doing a God-awful TV thing in the US
called "Hell's Kitchen"), and he is a talented chef, but what this
recipe makes is nothing like what many would recognized as "ceviche" and
while I won't speak absolutely for Chuck/Conan, I feel confident in
saying that he would agree. If this conversation had never taken place
and I were served this and asked what I thought it might be called on a
menu, I'd say some form of salmon carpaccio or similar. The word
"ceviche" would never enter into my mind. I'd also feel that much of
the visible parasite danger would be minimized due to the construction
of the dish.
>
>http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/591238
This just sounds God-awful and is by no means "ceviche." Might I offer
"Fucked-up Fishmess" as a more apt name. I have no idea who might
consider that shit "sophisticated," but drunken starving cats (as in
moggies) would seem a fair guess...and I suspect Ramsay would heave it
across the kitchen if it were brought to him...
>
>and
>
>http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm
Now this one is interesting, mainly because of the website. I didn't
examine the site, but "ceviche" isn't a peninsular Spanish dish, it's
from the Americas, but escabeche, (Moorish) cured/pickled/marinated
fish, is Spanish, so I'm not sure of what they mean to convey with
"ceviche de salmon." As to what it would make, again, I don't see it as
"ceviche" - it looks much like the Ramsay dish in style.
>
>'Salmon' in the UK means Salmo salar. Nearly all of it is farmed (not
>in the pacific - in coastal regions of Scotland and Ireland
>to the great detriment of wild salmon/seatrout runs)
Same in the Americas - farmed salmon is another idea that has gotten WAY
out of hand.
>
>If I try it, and live, I'll let you know.
IMO, Gordon's recipe and the Spanish website recipe sound good (and safe
enough) - I'd try both without hesitation. The second, with the
"thickly sliced" salmon sounds horrible and potentially (minimally,
admittedly) dangerous, so I'd not be keen on trying it - YMMV.
TC,
R
rw
>
> Hi RD
>
> thanks for all this, and I agree with your need for precision. Since
> the last post I've looked around, and discovered that that nasty
> parasite is more common in Pacific salmon than in Atlantic, but is
> pretty common in all wild salmon, (although not in farmed fish, for
> obvious reasons if you can be bothered to go through the life cycle of
> the parasite).
>
> In fact, if you do a google on ceviche and salmon and uk , you will
> come across lots of recipes for cevche of Atlantic salmon, including
> some from big-name chefs, which make no mention of the parasite
> problem (possibly they assume that all salmon is farmed, possibly
> they're ignorant.)
>
> Anyway, thanks for your input, which has helped me, and which I hope
> may help some others.
>
> Lazarus
FWIW, I've eaten raw Alaskan chinook and sockeye salmon many times with
no problems (admittedly more out of ignorance than bravery). Maybe
they're frozen before they're shipped to the market where I get them.
Conan The Librarian
> Ahhhh...OK. First, I know Gordon Ramsay and agree that he is among the
> biggies in the UK right now (but is doing a God-awful TV thing in the US
> called "Hell's Kitchen"), and he is a talented chef, but what this
> recipe makes is nothing like what many would recognized as "ceviche" and
> while I won't speak absolutely for Chuck/Conan, I feel confident in
> saying that he would agree. If this conversation had never taken place
> and I were served this and asked what I thought it might be called on a
> menu, I'd say some form of salmon carpaccio or similar. The word
> "ceviche" would never enter into my mind.
Totally agreed on this. It does look more like a carpaccio
presentation than anything else. I know some ceviche recipes vary in
how long you "cook" the fish in the marinade, but this looks like a
"dressing" rather than a marinade.
> I'd also feel that much of
> the visible parasite danger would be minimized due to the construction
> of the dish.
>
>>http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/591238
>
> This just sounds God-awful and is by no means "ceviche." Might I offer
> "Fucked-up Fishmess" as a more apt name. I have no idea who might
> consider that shit "sophisticated," but drunken starving cats (as in
> moggies) would seem a fair guess...and I suspect Ramsay would heave it
> across the kitchen if it were brought to him...
Yeah, but first he'd holler, "*bleep* me senseless ... are you
trying to *bleep*ing kill me?!" :-)
>>and
>>
>>http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm
>
> Now this one is interesting, mainly because of the website. I didn't
> examine the site, but "ceviche" isn't a peninsular Spanish dish, it's
> from the Americas, but escabeche, (Moorish) cured/pickled/marinated
> fish, is Spanish, so I'm not sure of what they mean to convey with
> "ceviche de salmon."
FWIW, my mom used to make escabeche, and IIRC, the word itself
describes the marinade, even though it's rarely said that way. So it
would be "pescado (or whatever) en escabeche". She made it with
firm-fleshed fish (plus carrots, onions and ?) and poached the fish first.
I'm wondering if someone didn't decide that the two words (ceviche
and escabeche) sound similar enough that they would try to link them
linguistically.
Chuck Vance
rdean3...@flash.net
<cv...@txstate.edu> wrote:
>>>http://www.spain4uk.co.uk/eats/marinated_salmon.htm
>>
>> Now this one is interesting, mainly because of the website. I didn't
>> examine the site, but "ceviche" isn't a peninsular Spanish dish, it's
>> from the Americas, but escabeche, (Moorish) cured/pickled/marinated
>> fish, is Spanish, so I'm not sure of what they mean to convey with
>> "ceviche de salmon."
>
> FWIW, my mom used to make escabeche, and IIRC, the word itself
>describes the marinade, even though it's rarely said that way. So it
>would be "pescado (or whatever) en escabeche". She made it with
>firm-fleshed fish (plus carrots, onions and ?) and poached the fish first.
Yeah, IME, one can "escabeche" <whatever> - chicken, fish, etc., and
AFAIK, the escabeche'ing comes post-cooking (with heat). IMO, it's only
relationship to ceviche is the fact that it involves soaking the fish
and the terms sound similar, I guess - see below
>
> I'm wondering if someone didn't decide that the two words (ceviche
>and escabeche) sound similar enough that they would try to link them
>linguistically.
I think that may be exactly what's happened - someone in the UK or on
the continent knew, generally, what escabeche was and heard, again
generally, about ceviche, and somehow, the two wound up combined/mixed.
Obviously, one can call a dish whatever they wish, but what the posted
recipes produce is nothing like what would be recognized as "ceviche" in
the Americas, nor is it what most Spaniards (or anyone else familiar
with "traditional" escabeche) I know would recognize as "escabeche."
TC,
R
>
>
> Chuck Vance
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> I think that may be exactly what's happened - someone in the UK or on
> the continent knew, generally, what escabeche was and heard, again
> generally, about ceviche, and somehow, the two wound up combined/mixed.
> Obviously, one can call a dish whatever they wish, but what the posted
> recipes produce is nothing like what would be recognized as "ceviche" in
> the Americas, nor is it what most Spaniards (or anyone else familiar
> with "traditional" escabeche) I know would recognize as "escabeche."
>
The origin of 'escabeche' is easy enough, coming from the Hispanic
Arabic assukkabag, from Arabic sikbag (unfortunate transcription for
airplane travellers - looks better in arabic) and related to the
Persian sekba.
The arabic and persian both mean simply 'meat stew with vinegar', and
the thing about it is that it's cooked.
There's a translation of a 13th Century Andalusian (ie Arabic) recipe
for Sikbaj at
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/andalusian4.
htm#Heading150
The etymology of 'ceviche' is controversial. Some people believe that
it derives originally from the Latin 'cibus' (food), some say it's
from the Quecha word for the dish 'siwichi', but many Peruvians
(including Gaston Acurio somewhere) believe that it is indeed derived
from 'escabeche de cebolla' (onion escabeche).
Lazarus
Lazarus Cooke
> I Googled, and got different results. I first Googling "ceviche
> 'Atlantic salmon' uk" to try and get right to the, um, meat of the
> matter, as it were.
Hi rd
No-one in europe would write 'atlantic salmon'. It's essentially the
only one there is. The rivers and seas and farms round the coast are
full of them. Here it's just called 'salmon'.
Pacific salmon crops up occasionally as a cheap, inferior (here),
frozen product.
Lazarus
Lazarus Cooke
Lazarus Cooke <lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote:
> No-one in europe would write 'atlantic salmon'.
Sorry. Repeating myself. Old age.
L
rdean3...@flash.net
Be careful with fish unless you know with whom you deal and/or you
yourself know how to identify what you are expecting. It's among the
most, um, "forged" stuff in the food service/supply industry because so
few people, including chefs, truly know the difference. Even most
consumers can tell veal from beef, real crab from "krab," or more
ridiculously, radicchio/rocket from iceberg, but fish, nope - they pay
for snapper and get tilapia, they think they're getting wild (Atlantic)
salmon and they're getting farmed Pacific, etc. I don't know that one
salmon (cheaper) is sub'ed for another (more expensive) in Europe _yet_,
(I would suspect it is) but trust me, the cheaper will be sub'ed for the
more expensive sooner rather than later anywhere it can be gotten away
with, by the supplier if not the kitchen/grocer (and oft-times, it's the
supplier, because that's where the real money is made on sub'ing).
TC,
R
>
>Lazarus
rdean3...@flash.net
Interesting. I don't see how ceviche (sah/suh-vee-che/chee) could have
come from escabeche (s-kaa-beash) other than via written form (as
opposed to via common speech). That alone makes me have some question
as to the connection. I've heard it (ceviche) was a native Americas
dish and term, but not from linguistic experts - sometimes, however,
laypeople know a hell of a lot more than experts, and often, even if
they are a bit fuzzy on details, the kernel of the facts are correct.
I'd offer that the word "siwichi" makes more sense in practical terms,
but ???
TC,
R
>
>Lazarus
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
I totally agree. My girlfriend comes from a fishing town on the bay of
Naples, Italy, and one of my daughters lives in Barcelona, both of
which have superb, highly competetive fish-markets. London is a very
different thing. For some reason, even though the seas here are awash
with fish, the standard of fish-monging is poor, and the knowledge of
how to deal with fish equally so.
But salmon, which used to mean luxury, is now poor people's food, and
is generally the cheapest fish available - cheaper than much meat. It
is farmed in masses off the coasts, and is always salmo. (This is
unlike oysters, where the natives are available, but very expensive,
while pacific oysters are much more easily farmed and are therefore
much cheaper and widely available. )
Thus salmon is about half the price of, say, cod and haddock, the
normal ingredients of 'fish and chips' which was once the working-class
English dish but now probably costs about seven or eight dollars per
portion to take away.
therefore, while I agree that the vendors cheat if they have an
interest in doing so, in this case they don't.
As I say, Pacific salmon is an oddity. You get it occasionally, but as
it's neither cheaper nor better than local farmed salmo salmon, why
bother?
Incidentally, the BBC radio programme 'The Food Programme' last Sunday
was about your neck of the woods. You can hear it for the next day or
so at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme.shtml
Lazarus
Lazarus Cooke
> Interesting. I don't see how ceviche (sah/suh-vee-che/chee) could have
> come from escabeche (s-kaa-beash) other than via written form (as
> opposed to via common speech).
I disagree there. Words change a lot in oral transmission.
> That alone makes me have some question
> as to the connection. I've heard it (ceviche) was a native Americas
> dish and term, but not from linguistic experts - sometimes, however,
> laypeople know a hell of a lot more than experts, and often, even if
> they are a bit fuzzy on details, the kernel of the facts are correct.
> I'd offer that the word "siwichi" makes more sense in practical terms,
> but ???
As I remember it, Alan Davidson, editor of 'Petits Propos Culinaires',
argued the derivation from the Latin in his 'Oxford Companion to Food'.
The SF writer Paula Wolfert then took some exceptions to this and a
number of other points of Davidson's in an article in 'Food and
Foodways' some years ago (I don't have access to these at the moment -
they're not online and I'm at home and writing from memory and notes).
Wolfert wrote :
"This" (Davidson's etymology) "is incorrect. Ceviche or seviche is
nothing but a Mediterranean method of preserving raw fish. The Latin
American Spanish word seviche or ceviche comes from the Iberian Spanish
escabeche, also called schebbeci in Sicily, a word that means
łmarinated fish.˛"
The Peruvian derivation from escabeche de cebolla comes from a
discussion some years ago with Victor de la Serna, who edits the wine
column for El Mundo
http://elmundovino.elmundo.es/elmundovino/
-- de la Serna was only saying that the etymology was the subject of
much heated discussion in Peru, and that this was one possible
derivation.
I agree that the Quecha derivation ( which I think came from a fairly
unauthratative source)is appealing , but that doesn't mean it's true!
There's often a great sentimental nationalistic interest in claiming
native derivations.
Ah well. Time for lunch. It's Friday, and I was going to get some
sardines from the fishmonger in Brixton, but now you've put me off....
Good Appetite
Lazarus
rdean3...@flash.net
I'm not Peruvian or Quechuan, and I have no national interest in the
matter. I do not _know_ where "ceviche" came from, and apparently, the
issue is up for debate, but based on what I do know, I'll stick with a
native word as the origin as most likely until something concrete shows
up. I will disagree strongly with Wolfert as an "expert" - ceviche, as
I know it (and as most of the Americas knows it) is by no means a method
of preserving fish, Mediterranean or otherwise. I would not eat ceviche
that had been around a week at room temp...YKMV...how many kilometers is
it to the nearest hospital for you...?
>Ah well. Time for lunch. It's Friday, and I was going to get some
>sardines from the fishmonger in Brixton, but now you've put me off....
>
>Good Appetite
>
>Lazarus
TC,
R
rdean3...@flash.net
>
>I'm not Peruvian or Quechuan,
Should be "I'm not Peruvian nor do I speak Quechuan..."
R
Lazarus Cooke
<rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not Peruvian nor do I speak Quechuan, and I have no national interest in the
> matter. I do not _know_ where "ceviche" came from, and apparently, the
> issue is up for debate, but based on what I do know, I'll stick with a
> native word as the origin as most likely until something concrete shows
> up.
Fine. I don't know the derivation either. I'll keep an open mind. In
fact I'll probably do more, and dig a little deeper. But derivations
are tricky things, and without evidence they often remain unsure.
In this case, I think the majority is against you, but that doesn't
mean you're wrong.
> I will disagree strongly with Wolfert as an "expert" - ceviche, as
> I know it (and as most of the Americas knows it) is by no means a method
> of preserving fish, Mediterranean or otherwise.
You're welcome to disagree with Paula Wolfert as an "expert". By the
way she's not, as far as I know, European. She's based in San
Francisco. She's written a lot of books about food and its history,
both popular and academic. She might even know more about ceviche, and
have done more research about its origins, than either you or I.
http://www.paula-wolfert.com/about.html
I thought you might have heard of her.
> I would not eat ceviche
> that had been around a week at room temp...
No, we weren't talking about that. We were talking about the derivation
of the word, which has been around for many hundreds of years.
Words change, not only their form, but also their meaning. See, for
example, 'nice'. Goes back to the Latin 'nescius' - 'ignorant'.
Probably comes from an IE root which has something to do with 'cut'.
In Old French it meant 'silly'. Later it meant 'fastidious'. Now it
means.....
....well 限 'nice'.
Lazarus
Wolfgang
"Lazarus Cooke" <lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote in message
news:160520081652028714%lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid...
> Words change, not only their form, but also their meaning. See, for
> example, 'nice'. Goes back to the Latin 'nescius' - 'ignorant'.
> Probably comes from an IE root which has something to do with 'cut'.
> In Old French it meant 'silly'. Later it meant 'fastidious'....
Related to the latter sense, it can also be more or less synonymous with
"fine" as in a "nice" distinction......of which this is a nice enough
example, I suppose. :)
Wolfgang
from the we-be-words desk.
Lazarus Cooke
<wolf...@mcw.edu> wrote:
> Related to the latter sense, it can also be more or less synonymous with
> "fine" as in a "nice" distinction......of which this is a nice enough
> example, I suppose. :)
Nice one!
:L
rdean3...@flash.net
<lazaru...@britishlibrary.invalid> wrote:
>In article <lr3r245k78u5khr5p...@4ax.com>,
><rdean3...@flash.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not Peruvian nor do I speak Quechuan, and I have no national interest in the
>> matter. I do not _know_ where "ceviche" came from, and apparently, the
>> issue is up for debate, but based on what I do know, I'll stick with a
>> native word as the origin as most likely until something concrete shows
>> up.
>
>Fine. I don't know the derivation either. I'll keep an open mind. In
>fact I'll probably do more, and dig a little deeper. But derivations
>are tricky things, and without evidence they often remain unsure.
And that's my feeling - I don't think that a definitive answer will be
had as I doubt there is any definitive evidence to be found.
>
>In this case, I think the majority is against you, but that doesn't
>mean you're wrong.
Doesn't mean I'm right, either, but as you might have gathered, I'm
really not concerned about the majority in matters subjective.
>> I will disagree strongly with Wolfert as an "expert" - ceviche, as
>> I know it (and as most of the Americas knows it) is by no means a method
>> of preserving fish, Mediterranean or otherwise.
>
>You're welcome to disagree with Paula Wolfert as an "expert". By the
>way she's not, as far as I know, European. She's based in San
>Francisco. She's written a lot of books about food and its history,
>both popular and academic. She might even know more about ceviche, and
>have done more research about its origins, than either you or I.
She might. But not if she says what your quote indicated, IMO.
>
>http://www.paula-wolfert.com/about.html
>
>I thought you might have heard of her.
>
>
>> I would not eat ceviche
>> that had been around a week at room temp...
>
>No, we weren't talking about that. We were talking about the derivation
>of the word, which has been around for many hundreds of years.
Perhaps I misread your quote about what she wrote. I appears you are
saying she said:
"Ceviche or seviche is nothing but a Mediterranean method of preserving
raw fish."
There may well be another "ceviche" of which I am not aware, but the
ceviche of which I am aware and have been discussing is neither
Mediterranean or a method of preserving raw fish if preserving is taken
in the standard sense. I'd offer that the ceviche in question would do
very little to preserve raw fish and that there is no question that the
dish "ceviche" is from the Americas, not the Mediterranean region, even
if the word "ceviche" does have its origins there.
>
>Words change, not only their form, but also their meaning. See, for
>example, 'nice'. Goes back to the Latin 'nescius' - 'ignorant'.
>Probably comes from an IE root which has something to do with 'cut'.
>In Old French it meant 'silly'. Later it meant 'fastidious'. Now it
>means.....
>
> ....well 限 'nice'.
It would seem to me that if there is a native word, siwichi, that
describes the dish "ceviche" (or more telling, IMO, "seviche"), logic
says the word "ceviche" is most likely, but not absolutely, from the
native word, rather than a sorta-close Spanish word that isn't really
the same dish (albeit variants of escabeche sharing ingredient(s) with
ceviche). But hey, I could be wrong.
TC,
R
>
>Lazarus