24" circumfrence "Willow" ? Really?
DaveS
base yesterday. Not a weeping willow, this one went straight up to
multiple trunks at about 20' then another 20-30 foot. Since Boy Scout
days in NJ was my prime tree ID phase, Ive never learned all the minor
specie here in the West. No biggie cause the bulk of the wetside
forest is fir/spruce/cedar, alder, and pine etc on the dryside. I had
always assumes it was an Oregon ash. The tree had tipped on its base
and was hung on some big Cedars. Neighbors were on me because it was
on the street edge and I was leery so I had my tree guy fall it, and
had another friend whack it up for the wood. The rounds were very
heavy, and dense and hard, but a new blade sliced thru real good.
Something between Western Maple and Madrona ;+) My tree guy is 40+
years in the business, still climbs and tops, and knows trees. But he
didn't know the proper name for this "willow."
My puzzlement remains. Ive no Sibleys guide and those pix are too
small for me anyway. Anyone have some expertise on willows or willing
to venture a guess, or a website? Fallen leaf were yellow/orange,
about 3", narrow single pointed.
Dave
Giles
I rely mostly on books, for various reasons that need not concern us
here, and will be happy to recommend some if you're interested. As
for websites, I've looked at many but have never bookmarked any for
future reference. The only one that came immediately to mind is the
Audubon Society's pages:
http://www.audubonguides.com/categories/Trees/landing.html
As good a place to start as any, I guess.
There are many, many others. The trouble is not finding them, but
winnowing through them. The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
website has a key to identifying trees found in the state. I suspect
that most other states have similar offerings. Major arboreta might
also be helpful. Colleges and universities with programs in forestry,
silviculture and such would also be good bets. I suspect there are
several good schools with such programs in Washington and Oregon.
There are also innumerable private (meaning more or less public, I
suppose) membership organizations like the National Arbor Day
Foundation, The Walnut Council, The Northern Nut Growers Association,
The American Chestnut Foundation, and countless others. Even
commercial nurseries sometimes have very good photos and keys to
identification. Good luck. :)
Meanwhile, your leaves sound like they may be willow of some kind, but
there are other species in many genera that are similar. Moreover,
"very heavy, and dense and hard" sounds most unwillow like. Willows
tend toward the light and soft.....very soft, usually. In addition,
twenty or more feet of straight clear bole is also uncommon in willows
approaching a foot dbh. To complicate matters even more, willows are
among a fair number of North American genera that hybridize readily
and can be confoundedly difficult to narrow down to species. Even if
you ascertain that it is indeed a willow, you may never know for sure
just which willow it is.
Speaking of which, another likely place to look for help in
identification just came to mind:
Giles
Oops. Hit send by mistake. Wasn't quite finished. American Forests,
among other things, maintains a registry of national champion
trees......those deemed to be bigger (by a fairly arbitrary, and most
unsatisfactory, as it results mostly in freaks being champions, set of
standards that would set the Boone and Crocket boys' teeth on edge)
than all the rest of their kind in the U.S., including Alaska (why
not?) and excluding Hawaii (for the obvious reason). Anyway, to make
the thus far doubtless obscure connection, they have a list:
http://www.americanforests.org/resources/bigtrees/register.php?show=nochamps
of "Species With Out [sic] Champs." Noteworthy among (though by no
means exemplary of) the genera with a relatively large number of no
champion species is Salix.....the willows. A large number of no
champion species is, to a certain extent, a function of a large number
of species in the genus. And a large number of species may be (though
by no means always) a function of the difficulty inherent in finding
universally agreed on characteristics of a particular species, as
opposed to subspecies, geographical variants, horitcultural variants,
and hybrids, whether naturally occurring or induced. If you want to
see where it REALLY gets ugly, scroll back up that page to Crataegus,
the hawthorns.
The hawthorns, by the way, are near the opposite end of the mass
spectrum from bacteria but provide equally compelling (if vastly
different) arguments against any definition of species that I've ever
encountered.......but that's a rant for another time and place.....and
audience.
Bottom line? Well, if it ain't a willow......good luck. And if it
is.....good luck. :)
giles
DaveS
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanx. First of your links nails it I think as Pacific Willow, Salix
lucida ssp. lasiandra (Salix lasiandra)
"Tree with open, irregular crown; sometimes a thicket-forming
shrub.Height: 20-50' (6-15 m).Diameter: 2' (0.6 m).Leaves: 2-5" (5-13
cm) long, 1/2-1" (1.2-2.5 cm) wide. Narrowly lance-shaped, very
long... read more. . . . "
Northwest, Sitka, and River willows, all NW willows could be ruled out
per their size and leaves. I was surprised to see app 39 willows
listed, with at least a half dozed unique to the country beyond the
Rockies. The Pacific Willow is apparently one of the largest.
Thanx
Dave
Giles
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanx. First of your links nails it I think as Pacific Willow, Salix
> lucida ssp. lasiandra (Salix lasiandra)
>
> "Tree with open, irregular crown; sometimes a thicket-forming
> shrub.Height: 20-50' (6-15 m).Diameter: 2' (0.6 m).Leaves: 2-5" (5-13
> cm) long, 1/2-1" (1.2-2.5 cm) wide. Narrowly lance-shaped, very
> long... read more. . . . "
>
> Northwest, Sitka, and River willows, all NW willows could be ruled out
> per their size and leaves. I was surprised to see app 39 willows
> listed, with at least a half dozed unique to the country beyond the
> Rockies. The Pacific Willow is apparently one of the largest.
I won't dispute your identification.....there are exceptions to most
rules.....but you might be interested in this:
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/willow.htm
Most of the sites I just found by googling "wood characteristics"
don't even mention willow. The few that do usually include "soft"
"light" and "weak" in the description.
> Thanx
> Dave
You're welcome.
giles
DaveS
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanx. First of your links nails it I think as Pacific Willow, Salix
> > lucida ssp. lasiandra (Salix lasiandra)
>
> > "Tree with open, irregular crown; sometimes a thicket-forming
> > shrub.Height: 20-50' (6-15 m).Diameter: 2' (0.6 m).Leaves: 2-5" (5-13
> > cm) long, 1/2-1" (1.2-2.5 cm) wide. Narrowly lance-shaped, very
> > long... read more. . . . "
>
> > Northwest, Sitka, and River willows, all NW willows could be ruled out
> > per their size and leaves. I was surprised to see app 39 willows
> > listed, with at least a half dozed unique to the country beyond the
> > Rockies. The Pacific Willow is apparently one of the largest.
>
> I won't dispute your identification.....there are exceptions to most
> rules.....but you might be interested in this:
>
> http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/willow.htm
>
> Most of the sites I just found by googling "wood characteristics"
> don't even mention willow. The few that do usually include "soft"
> "light" and "weak" in the description.
>
> > Thanx
> > Dave
>
> You're welcome.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The "soft,light,weak" often doesn't go together here in the NW. Doug
Fir for example, Western Red Cedar is another. We also have some
"hardwoods" that are extremely fast growing, (Red Alder, Western
Maple, hybrid Poplar, Oregon Ash) for which these characteristics
vary, Its a whole different tree world than the Eastern hardwood
forest I grew up with. I think you would find it very interesting.
Dave
Giles
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanx. First of your links nails it I think as Pacific Willow, Salix
> > > lucida ssp. lasiandra (Salix lasiandra)
>
> > > "Tree with open, irregular crown; sometimes a thicket-forming
> > > shrub.Height: 20-50' (6-15 m).Diameter: 2' (0.6 m).Leaves: 2-5" (5-13
> > > cm) long, 1/2-1" (1.2-2.5 cm) wide. Narrowly lance-shaped, very
> > > long... read more. . . . "
>
> > > Northwest, Sitka, and River willows, all NW willows could be ruled out
> > > per their size and leaves. I was surprised to see app 39 willows
> > > listed, with at least a half dozed unique to the country beyond the
> > > Rockies. The Pacific Willow is apparently one of the largest.
>
> > I won't dispute your identification.....there are exceptions to most
> > rules.....but you might be interested in this:
>
> >http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/willow.htm
>
> > Most of the sites I just found by googling "wood characteristics"
> > don't even mention willow. The few that do usually include "soft"
> > "light" and "weak" in the description.
>
> > > Thanx
> > > Dave
>
> > You're welcome.
>
> > giles- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The "soft,light,weak" often doesn't go together here in the NW. Doug
> Fir for example, Western Red Cedar is another.
"Soft, light, and weak" often don't go together here in the Upper
Great Lakes region, as well. White oak, the ashes and the hickories
come readily to mind.....but then, none of them are willows in
general. Nor are Douglas fir or western red cedar.
> We also have some "hardwoods" that are extremely fast growing, (Red Alder, Western
> Maple, hybrid Poplar, Oregon Ash) for which these characteristics
> vary,
Stick around for a few years after you get and plant those chestnuts.
It'll give you a whole new appreciation for fast growing. :)
> Its a whole different tree world than the Eastern hardwood
> forest I grew up with.
Yep, and there are virtually endless others.....for now.
> I think you would find it very interesting.
More than you suspect, I suspect. The variation in biotic regimes,
even over startlingly short distances, is endlessly fascinating.
Within a four hour drive (put a compass point in the middle of
Milwaukee and set the other end for about a two hundred mile radius) I
can find more biological wonders than kept millions of professional
biologists busy for the past ten or twelve thousand years.....not to
mention their few thousands of amateur brethren in the past three or
four centuries. And this, bearing in mind that Lake Michigan
essentially cuts the available turf in half, for all practical
purposes.
But.....
We have nothing here to match the lordly grandeur of the tall western
trees. I would love to see them all before I die.....after simply
won't do.
giles
DaveS
>
> Stick around for a few years after you get and plant those chestnuts.
> It'll give you a whole new appreciation for fast growing. :)
It will be interesting to see the diffs, wetside to dryside, as i plan
to try them (chestnuts) in both climates.
You would find lots to see out here. I'll put out an invite here and
now to show you some as a guide with some reasonable notice. The size
and the sheer volume of bio mass can be overwhelmingly beautiful,
particularly out on the coast. The Hoh River Valley in particular.
Much of our coast is devoid of population and the forest abuts the
sea. A road trip circumnavigating the Olympic Mountains can be
amazing. Pop a map and you'll see what I mean.
Ive toured some friends from back east and learned to forewarn folks
about the cuts which can horrify folk not used to the scale of things
out here. But I'd think you would have seen similar on the UP. Things
have slowed with the recession but the scope and scale of the lumber
industry is also worth seeing. We have whole ports devoted mostly to
moving timber out to the world. Its all both beautiful and
horrifying,
Another area I would like to see is the edge of the boreal forest up
in Canada.
Dave
Giles
> On Dec 15, 5:50 pm, Giles <g_goat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Stick around for a few years after you get and plant those chestnuts.
> > It'll give you a whole new appreciation for fast growing. :)
>
> It will be interesting to see the diffs, wetside to dryside, as i plan
> to try them (chestnuts) in both climates.
You might want to check with local enthusiasts......they are
everywhere, and god knows the American chestnut is about as sexy as a
tree can get.
> You would find lots to see out here. I'll put out an invite here and
> now to show you some as a guide with some reasonable notice. The size
> and the sheer volume of bio mass can be overwhelmingly beautiful,
> particularly out on the coast. The Hoh River Valley in particular.
> Much of our coast is devoid of population and the forest abuts the
> sea. A road trip circumnavigating the Olympic Mountains can be
> amazing. Pop a map and you'll see what I mean.
I'd love to take you up on the offer. Some day. But for the
forseeable future my travel budget restricts me to places I can drive
to in a day or less.
> Ive toured some friends from back east and learned to forewarn folks
> about the cuts which can horrify folk not used to the scale of things
> out here. But I'd think you would have seen similar on the UP. Things
> have slowed with the recession but the scope and scale of the lumber
> industry is also worth seeing. We have whole ports devoted mostly to
> moving timber out to the world. Its all both beautiful and
> horrifying,
Wisconsin has led the nation in paper production since the
1950s.....we know all about cutting. Though you might like to look at
Menominee county as an interesting (and glaring) exception,
> Another area I would like to see is the edge of the boreal forest up
> in Canada.
I'd like to see any forest, anywhere, anytime. But I bask in the
certain knowledge
that I will never set foot in the vast majority of them.
giles