How Long does it take to get a GOA?

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quie...@popmail.com

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Jan 30, 2007, 5:25:49 PM1/30/07
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I have a friend who just got his Grant ofArms 30 years after joing the
SCA. Only took him 5 for an AOA. How long does it usually take? I
toldhim he needs to suckup more, then it wouldn't have taken so long.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jan 30, 2007, 5:45:03 PM1/30/07
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In article <1170195949.7...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

No.

How long it takes to get what varies by Kingdom, by region, by
the personality of the recipient (which is not equivaluent to
"sucking up"), by the personality of the Royalty, and most of all
by how much the recipient has been doing.

I've been in the Society since the year I. I have an AoA, a Leaf
of Merit, a Laurel, a Pelican, and a Court Barony. The last was
granted only a few years ago. My husband has all the above, also
a Grant. He got it several years back when he (as Kingdom
Constable), the Kingdom Seneschal, and the Kingdom Marshall had all
done a humongous amount of work to protect the Kingdom from one of
the periodic madnesses of the BoD. The King wanted to reward all
three of them, but ... among the three of them there were two
Laurels, one Pelican, one Knighthood, two Court Baronies and two
Viscounties. A Grant was the only thing none of the three had,
so he gave them each one. Everyone involved was highly amused,
and so were the populace

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djh...@kithrup.com

Steve Mesnick

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Jan 30, 2007, 9:27:50 PM1/30/07
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Dorothea wrote:
> The King wanted to reward all
> three of them, but ... among the three of them there were two
> Laurels, one Pelican, one Knighthood, two Court Baronies and two
> Viscounties. A Grant was the only thing none of the three had,
> so he gave them each one.

Sigh. With utmost respect, I *really* hope it was done as a joke.
You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.

How about an augmentation of arms? Freedom from taxes? Hawking
rights in the royal reserve?

That's why the East has the Queen's Honor of Distinction, a catch-all
award with very rigorously-defined vagueness %^).

Steffan ap Kennydd

Heather Rose Jones

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:17:10 AM1/31/07
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<quie...@popmail.com> wrote:

There are two angles to this question. Unlike AoAs and Patents, not
every kingdom has a standard set of Grant-based awards that would be an
expected stop on the cursus honorem, whatever one's general field of
endeavor may be. For example, in the kingdom I'm most familiar with
(the West), it was long the case that grants were used primarily as a
"gold watch" for service in office. Only later (you know, like maybe 15
or 20 years ago or so) were some orders created with a Grant attached to
them as a mark of special honor. So for a significant portion of
Western history, it was quite possible to be an extremely active,
talented, and valued member of the kingdom but never be in a position
(holding office) that would lead to receipt of a Grant.

The other angle, of course, is that whether one receives _any_ award is
dependent not only on whether one comes to the positive notice of the
royalty, but on whether one is doing something worthy of notice. Many
people contribute their skills and talents to the SCA on an AoA level
but are content for whatever reason with not reaching beyond that level.
Awards shouldn't be given simply for time in grade. (Note that I don't
say "aren't", but "shouldn't".)

Tangwystyl

--
Heather Rose Jones
heatherrosejones.com
lj=hrj

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:27:26 AM1/31/07
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In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:

>Dorothea wrote:
>> The King wanted to reward all
>> three of them, but ... among the three of them there were two
>> Laurels, one Pelican, one Knighthood, two Court Baronies and two
>> Viscounties. A Grant was the only thing none of the three had,
>> so he gave them each one.

>Sigh. With utmost respect, I *really* hope it was done as a joke.

No, it was done because that was the only thing he could give all
three of them. It was funny, yes, *because* it was the only
thing left to give them.

>You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).

In other Kingdoms, yes, if you say that's the way in other
Kingdoms. In the West, the Grant was originally designed to give
to a Great Officer of State who didn't have a Peerage yet and who
was having trouble asserting the authority of his Office to
Knights and such fry. Most Peers have never had any and still
don't. I don't.

>It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.

If the only way to get to be a colonel is previously to have been
a captain, yes. This isn't the case in the West. I do
understand that in other Kingdoms there is a rigidly set out
_cursus honorum_ which includes a Grant on the way to a Peerage.
Not in the West.

>How about an augmentation of arms?

Pretty much nonexistent. William the Lucky got one once for
being the "head" of Headless House. That was in about AS V.
There haven't been many (any?) since, and if the King had made
one up on the spot, that *would* have been a joke.

>Freedom from taxes? Hawking
>rights in the royal reserve?

Individuals don't pay taxes, only branches (and that, as a joke
and an excuse to come up and do funny schtik at court). There
are no royal hawking reserves. Anything along those lines would
have been, again, a joke, and the King wanted to give these three
people some *recognizable*honor* that they didn't already have.

>That's why the East has the Queen's Honor of Distinction, a catch-all
>award with very rigorously-defined vagueness %^).

The West has the Queen's Order of Grace, which goes all the way
back to AS II when the Queen could not give Awards of Arms, so
Queen Ruth devised the QOG as an award for being nice,
particularly to the Queen. It was something she could give to a
nice newcomer at her first tourney, long before she could get an
AoA.

Interkingdom Anthropology strikes again.

Charly the Bastard

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Jan 31, 2007, 7:54:40 AM1/31/07
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quie...@popmail.com wrote:

It takes as long as it takes. Some folk never get one. Mine took twenty
years. I'll never go farther, because "I've pissed off too many Peers',
quoth the King. Their loss, I'm pretty good at my craft.

HL Charly the Bastard, the Last Dworf in Ansteorra, Head Metal Forger In
Charge, Dwarven Metals

Chris Zakes

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Jan 31, 2007, 8:34:45 AM1/31/07
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On 30 Jan 2007 14:25:49 -0800, an orbital mind-control laser caused
quie...@popmail.com to write:

Is there a point to your recent posts (this one and the two on "The
Fix is In") or are you just whining and/or trying to stir up trouble?

-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra

Rule #5. There will always be some people who can do some things
that you just *can't*. Don't worry about it, work on your basics
and have some double-stuff Oreos.

Ralph E Lindberg

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Jan 31, 2007, 8:41:07 AM1/31/07
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In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Dorothea wrote:
> > The King wanted to reward all
> > three of them, but ... among the three of them there were two
> > Laurels, one Pelican, one Knighthood, two Court Baronies and two
> > Viscounties. A Grant was the only thing none of the three had,
> > so he gave them each one.
>
> Sigh. With utmost respect, I *really* hope it was done as a joke.
> You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
> It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.
>

I don't have perfect knowledge, but that is true in no Kingdom I know
of. eg AnTir could has 5 (FIVE) different awards with Grants attached.
Ralg
Antir

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

Ralph E Lindberg

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Jan 31, 2007, 8:49:56 AM1/31/07
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As long as it takes. I've been in about 30 years, don't have one and
never worried about it. I do have (more) then enough awards (that I
never worried about, including a Peerage). Not why I got involved.
TTFN
Ralg
AnTir

Eilidh

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Jan 31, 2007, 11:15:29 AM1/31/07
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Most awards in Caid are given by the Barons and the Crown based on
letters of recommendation, not "time in grade."

If you didn't write a letter (or email) to the Crown letting them know
how much work your friend did, They may not know. Much service and art
is done quietly and behind the scenes.

Another issue is "gee, we thought he already _had_ that award!" A
frequent phrase for someone who has been around so long. If you know
someone who is contributing to the group, look in your kingdom Order of
Precedence and see what he has been recognized for. Then write a letter
to your Baron and Baroness or the Crown.

A great deal of the responsibility rests on the populace.

We are the Crowns' eyes.

-Eilidh
Caid

In article <n7bsn-AAB2CF....@individual.net>,

Michael Houghton

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:27:05 PM1/31/07
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Howdy!

In article <JCpwH...@kithrup.com>,


Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
>Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>Dorothea wrote:
>>> The King wanted to reward all
>>> three of them, but ... among the three of them there were two
>>> Laurels, one Pelican, one Knighthood, two Court Baronies and two
>>> Viscounties. A Grant was the only thing none of the three had,
>>> so he gave them each one.
>
>>Sigh. With utmost respect, I *really* hope it was done as a joke.
>
>No, it was done because that was the only thing he could give all
>three of them. It was funny, yes, *because* it was the only
>thing left to give them.

*sigh* Unfortunately, it was not something that any of those
people were eligible to receive.

>
>>You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
>
>In other Kingdoms, yes, if you say that's the way in other
>Kingdoms. In the West, the Grant was originally designed to give
>to a Great Officer of State who didn't have a Peerage yet and who
>was having trouble asserting the authority of his Office to
>Knights and such fry. Most Peers have never had any and still
>don't. I don't.

It's not a kingdom level thing. If you hold arms by letters
patent, you cannot receive either an AoA or a GoA, any more
than you can get a second AoA.

The King may have uttered words that purported to Grant Arms,
but they had no validity. It was, I'm sure, a well intentioned
act, but it was merely symbolic. It conveyed no new armigerous
state, nor should it be recorded in the rolls of precedence.

>>It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.
>
>If the only way to get to be a colonel is previously to have been
>a captain, yes. This isn't the case in the West. I do
>understand that in other Kingdoms there is a rigidly set out
>_cursus honorum_ which includes a Grant on the way to a Peerage.
>Not in the West.

It is not necessary to receive a Grant before one gets a peerage.
It's not a West versus other kingdoms thing. It's a "the way
the award structure works" thing. It's a Society thing.

In Atlantia, I know of one person whose first award was "Countess"
(with a Patent). She never got an AoA, and never will.

>
>>How about an augmentation of arms?
>
>Pretty much nonexistent. William the Lucky got one once for
>being the "head" of Headless House. That was in about AS V.
>There haven't been many (any?) since, and if the King had made
>one up on the spot, that *would* have been a joke.

I don't follow that. Augmentations of Arms ought to be considered
a high honor. Perhaps the lack of use in the West has conditioned
the king and queen to overlook their strategic use. In the instant
case, its novelty would have contributed to its prestige. I don't
see how it would have been a joke.


>
>>Freedom from taxes? Hawking
>>rights in the royal reserve?
>
>Individuals don't pay taxes, only branches (and that, as a joke
>and an excuse to come up and do funny schtik at court). There
>are no royal hawking reserves. Anything along those lines would
>have been, again, a joke, and the King wanted to give these three
>people some *recognizable*honor* that they didn't already have.

Unfortunately, the King tried to give an honor that was not
available to give to those recipients. Taxes, royal reserves, and
the like are genuine medieval sorts of things that the king could
give dispensations over. If they were used judiciously in today's
SCA, they would provide a broad range of things the king could
do without having to create formal orders and awards, of which we
generally have far too many of.

>
>>That's why the East has the Queen's Honor of Distinction, a catch-all
>>award with very rigorously-defined vagueness %^).
>
>The West has the Queen's Order of Grace, which goes all the way
>back to AS II when the Queen could not give Awards of Arms, so
>Queen Ruth devised the QOG as an award for being nice,
>particularly to the Queen. It was something she could give to a
>nice newcomer at her first tourney, long before she could get an
>AoA.
>
>Interkingdom Anthropology strikes again.

Would that this were merely IKA.

yours,
Herveus


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
her...@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad

Goedjn

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:22:40 PM1/31/07
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On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:54:40 GMT, Charly the Bastard
<nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>quie...@popmail.com wrote:
>
>> I have a friend who just got his Grant ofArms 30 years after joing the
>> SCA. Only took him 5 for an AOA. How long does it usually take? I
>> toldhim he needs to suckup more, then it wouldn't have taken so long.
>
>It takes as long as it takes. Some folk never get one. Mine took twenty
>years. I'll never go farther, because "I've pissed off too many Peers',
>quoth the King. Their loss, I'm pretty good at my craft.
>

Not really relevent, since a peerage award isn't supposed to be
about being good at your craft. It's supposed to be about being
an exemplar of the type of person the SCA encourages you to be.

Michael Houghton

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:38:01 PM1/31/07
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Howdy!

Anywhere from two years or less up to never.

As one data point that has little in the way of predictive value:

I got an AoA in about six months (yeah, there was a meaningful chunk
of work done in that time).
I got a GoA less than two years after that.
I got the kingdom service order six months after that.
I got a Pelican a bit more than three years after that (being principal
herald didn't hurt that last leap).

For those keeping score at home, that's under six years from starting
active play in the SCA to a peerage.

About three years later, I got the kingdom A&S order,
and just got a Laurel (eleven years after the Pelican).

I've seen the fast train, and I've seen the slow train, and I know
others whose train is even slower.

Most of the grants given in Atlantia (at least before several
kingdom orders were bumped up to grant level) were given to landed
baronage on their investiture. When I got the grant, it was something
of a novelty to have someone receive a bare grant, but it's something
that has been done and continues to be done. That's one kingdom.

Some kingdoms don't, or only rarely use the grant of arms. It really
depends.

Tim McDaniel

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:45:17 PM1/31/07
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As for the substantive points: what Herveus said.

In article <JCpwH...@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

>In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
>Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>Freedom from taxes? Hawking rights in the royal reserve?
>

>... There are no royal hawking reserves. Anything along those lines
>would have been, again, a joke ...

My first reaction was that baronial power is fundamentally just as
imaginary. I don't know of anything a baron or baroness can actually
do to you, except refuse to warrant you as a baronial officer or to
suspend you in office (and that may be Inter-Kingdom Anthropology).

Steffan's comment can also be considered metynomy for franchises in
general. Complimentary entrance to all royal caledar events would be
quite real and fairly valuable (though a policy would have to be
approved by the financial committee). If there are customary
restrictions on behavior around the king and queen ("do not approach
within 15 feet without express permission" or whatever), the privilege
to approach the king and queen at any reasonable time would also be a
notable mark of favor. There's also symbolic or nominal offices.
Those are a few ideas that came to me off the top of my head.

Denyel de Lyncoln
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Mike Andrews

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Jan 31, 2007, 12:57:25 PM1/31/07
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I remember reading that the Spanish Court of Philip, and possibly
those of his ancestors, gave grandees at and above a certain rank the
right to wear their hats in the presence of the Crown; all other men
had to uncover. IIRC, those of particularly exalted noble rank were
permitted to be seated on chairs in the presence of the Crown, others
of less noble rank to be seated on backless stools or benches in the
presence, and the rest of the nobles had to stand.

For a while I was the official Polisher of the Great Sword of State of
the Kingdom of Atenvelt -- and kept that sword *shiny*!, too. I was
new to the Society then, with a bare AOA, and thought it was very nice
to be able to make a formal handover of that sword to the senior
Knight present, just before Court began. I still think so.

These, and similar "honors", may inspire others to invent, or to
modify to fit, honors and distinctions that are suitable to their
Courts or to those of their Crowns.

--
Mike Andrews / Michael Fenwick Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
mi...@mikea.ath.cx / Amateur Extra radio operator W5EGO
Tired old music Laurel; Chirurgeon; SCAdian since AS XI

Jay Rudin

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Jan 31, 2007, 1:22:23 PM1/31/07
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Dorothy J Heydt responded to Steve Mesnick :

>>You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).

>>It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.

The analogy isn't analogous. When a captain becomes a colonel, he ceases to
be a captain. When I became a peer, I continued to have a Grant of Arms,
even though it gave me no rank, precedence or degree that I wouldn't have
had without it.

This is also complicated by the fact that some Orders carry Grants of Arms.
I was made a member of a two Grant orders, one for arts and one for rattan
combat, after I received my Pelican. These did not give me Grants, however,
because I already had one -- from the White Scarf (also a Grant order). I
also was inducted into a Grant order for service on my way to the Pelican.

But that's not automatic. The Star of Merit carries a grant for service *to
Ansteorra*. It's possible for somebody to earn a Pelican for service to the
SCA as a whole without ever having done enough to earn a Star of Merit.
That person could later receive a Grant with any Grant order.

> If the only way to get to be a colonel is previously to have been
> a captain, yes. This isn't the case in the West. I do
> understand that in other Kingdoms there is a rigidly set out
> _cursus honorum_ which includes a Grant on the way to a Peerage.
> Not in the West.

I believe that he's trying to assert, not that the person already has one,
but that a Grant cannot be givcen after receiving a Patent. You cannot give
a captaincy to a colonel without him taking a reduction in grade, because
each is a specific rank and office, held temporarily and mutually
exclusively. There is no reason a Grant cannot be given to a peer, however,
although some kingdoms may consider such a thing to be meaningless, since a
Grant (by itself) carries nothing but precedence, and a peer already has
more of it.

> Interkingdom Anthropology strikes again.

That it does.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin


Jay Rudin

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Jan 31, 2007, 1:28:15 PM1/31/07
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>> I have a friend who just got his Grant ofArms 30 years after joing the
>> SCA. Only took him 5 for an AOA. How long does it usually take? I
>> toldhim he needs to suckup more, then it wouldn't have taken so long.

How long does it usually take to get a college degree? Since most people
never get one, the most usual length of time is infinite. Same with a Grant
of Arms.

It takes being seen to have done an elite level for the SCA or for your
kingdom, followed by somebody noticing and recommending it to the Crown, and
the evidence presented to the Crown being sufficient to convince them to
grant that person rank higher than that of most people in the kingdom.

Steps one and two are the ones that take a lot of time (doing the work, and
somebody deciding to make a recommendation).

But it is *not true* than an active SCA career -- of any length -- is
sufficient to earn a Grant of Arms.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jan 31, 2007, 2:35:28 PM1/31/07
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In article <12s1kb9...@corp.supernews.com>,

Well, you tell the King that.

Maybe you could first look up the place in the Society governing
documents where it says that if you already have a Patent you
can't get a Grant?

I'm aware that in many Kingdoms there's a strict _cursus honorum_
in which a Grant comes only before a Patent, and a Patent comes
only after a Grant. But to the best of my knowledge and belief,
this isn't true in the West.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jan 31, 2007, 2:37:51 PM1/31/07
to
In article <epqkjd$331$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>As for the substantive points: what Herveus said.
>
>In article <JCpwH...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
>>Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>Freedom from taxes? Hawking rights in the royal reserve?
>>
>>... There are no royal hawking reserves. Anything along those lines
>>would have been, again, a joke ...
>
>My first reaction was that baronial power is fundamentally just as
>imaginary. I don't know of anything a baron or baroness can actually
>do to you, except refuse to warrant you as a baronial officer or to
>suspend you in office (and that may be Inter-Kingdom Anthropology).
>
>Steffan's comment can also be considered metynomy for franchises in
>general. Complimentary entrance to all royal caledar events would be
>quite real and fairly valuable (though a policy would have to be
>approved by the financial committee). If there are customary
>restrictions on behavior around the king and queen ("do not approach
>within 15 feet without express permission" or whatever), the privilege
>to approach the king and queen at any reasonable time would also be a
>notable mark of favor.

This is not the case in the West. Nor is it mandated that anyone
remove all weaponry before approaching the Royalty.

> There's also symbolic or nominal offices.

/shrug

Like access to the royal hawking grounds, these would be purely
imaginary. To the extent that anything in the SCA is "real", a
Grant is "real", and a symbolic or nominal office isn't.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jan 31, 2007, 2:43:51 PM1/31/07
to
In article <4JSdnWqmrb_8Q13Y...@comcast.com>,

Jay Rudin <ru...@ev1.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt responded to Steve Mesnick :
>
>>>You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
>>>It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.
>
>The analogy isn't analogous. When a captain becomes a colonel, he ceases to
>be a captain. When I became a peer, I continued to have a Grant of Arms,
>even though it gave me no rank, precedence or degree that I wouldn't have
>had without it.
>
>This is also complicated by the fact that some Orders carry Grants of Arms.
>I was made a member of a two Grant orders, one for arts and one for rattan
>combat, after I received my Pelican. These did not give me Grants, however,
>because I already had one -- from the White Scarf (also a Grant order). I
>also was inducted into a Grant order for service on my way to the Pelican.

There is an Order in the West that carries a Grant --- I think
it's for archers, but it's so seldom given that I can't wrap my
memory around it. Naked Grants are also handed out, also seldom,
for something approximating the original reason, which was (_vide
supra_) to give a little extra authority to a Great Officer who
was not a Peer and who had to deal with Peers (e.g., a Knight
Marshall who was not yet a Knight, and yes, we've had a few).
What we *don't* have is the convention, so common elsewhere that
Steffan seems to assume that it is Society-wide, that a Grant is
a stepping-stone on the way from an AoA to a Peerage. Every time
I see someone sign him/herself THL, I have to stop and think "Oh
yeah, The Honourable Lord/Lady, someone with a naked Grant, from
another Kingdom."
>
....


>
>> If the only way to get to be a colonel is previously to have been
>> a captain, yes. This isn't the case in the West. I do
>> understand that in other Kingdoms there is a rigidly set out
>> _cursus honorum_ which includes a Grant on the way to a Peerage.
>> Not in the West.
>
>I believe that he's trying to assert, not that the person already has one,

>but that a Grant cannot be given after receiving a Patent. You cannot give

>a captaincy to a colonel without him taking a reduction in grade, because
>each is a specific rank and office, held temporarily and mutually
>exclusively. There is no reason a Grant cannot be given to a peer, however,
>although some kingdoms may consider such a thing to be meaningless, since a
>Grant (by itself) carries nothing but precedence, and a peer already has
>more of it.
>
>> Interkingdom Anthropology strikes again.
>
>That it does.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Tim McDaniel

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Jan 31, 2007, 2:59:05 PM1/31/07
to
In article <JCr05...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>What we *don't* have is the convention, so common elsewhere that
>Steffan seems to assume that it is Society-wide, that a Grant is
>a stepping-stone on the way from an AoA to a Peerage.

You misunderstand. It is possible in such kingdoms to get any level
of Award/Grant/Patent of Arms without a previous level. It happens to
be rare, because people tend to develop gradually in service, arts, or
combat, so it's likely that they will be deemed qualified for a lower
rank before getting a higher rank. But, like a kingdom marshal who
isn't a knight, it is possible.

>Every time I see someone sign him/herself THL, I have to stop and
>think "Oh yeah, The Honourable Lord/Lady, someone with a naked Grant,
>from another Kingdom."

Not "naked". In many places, "The Honorable Lord/Lady" is used by
people who have received a Grant of Arms of whatever type, whether
naked or bestowed with an award.

Note that Laurel Sovereign of Arms has not defined a style
specifically for grant level. The defined title is "Lord/Lady" (or
forms that have been deemed to be corresponding in other languages).

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 2:44:55 PM1/31/07
to
In article <elhewitt-446ABB...@ihnp4.ucsd.edu>,

Eilidh <elhe...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Most awards in Caid are given by the Barons and the Crown based on
>letters of recommendation, not "time in grade."
>
>If you didn't write a letter (or email) to the Crown letting them know
>how much work your friend did, They may not know. Much service and art
>is done quietly and behind the scenes.
>
>Another issue is "gee, we thought he already _had_ that award!" A
>frequent phrase for someone who has been around so long. If you know
>someone who is contributing to the group, look in your kingdom Order of
>Precedence and see what he has been recognized for. Then write a letter
>to your Baron and Baroness or the Crown.

Good point!

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 3:11:39 PM1/31/07
to
In article <JCqz...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Maybe you could first look up the place in the Society governing
>documents where it says that if you already have a Patent you
>can't get a Grant?

Corpora VI.C.1 (<http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf>):

The Laurel Sovereign of Arms (Laurel) is the principal heraldic
officer of the Society and the head of the College of Arms. Laurel
is responsible for fostering the study and practice of heraldry,
and for establishing December 5, 2006 revision Corpora December 5,
2006 revision 16 rules and making determinations regarding names
and armory, royal and noble titles, and geographical designations
to be approved for use in the Society.

Wilhelm von Schl{u"}ssel, Laurel LoAR Cover Letter for the November
1982 Cover Letter (<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/1982/10/cl2.htm>):

Another question concerns multiple awards. There are three levels
of arms in the SCA: arms by Award, Grant, or Patent, in increasing
order of precedence. Once you receive a particular level of arms,
you cannot later receive that same or lower level, as such action
would have no meaning or effect. Thus, a person who receives an
Award of Arms is an armiger. If a King incorrectly later gives
that armiger a second Award of Arms, that second action is null
and void because it has no effect: the person was already an
armiger. The ceremony of the presentation of the second Award of
Arms did serve the purpose of expressing the King's desire to
reward the armiger, and so was of some effect, but the second
Award of Arms should not be listed in the Order of Precedence.

Similarly, if a Grant of Arms holder receives a later Award of
Arms or Grant of Arms, the later action is of no effect and should
not be listed. If a holder or a Patent of Arms later receives an
Award of Arms, a Grant of Arms, or another Patent of Arms, then
the later action is of no effect and should not be listed. You can
only receive one Patent of Arms. A man who is a Knight, a Pelican,
a Laurel, a Viscount, a Count, and a Duke has exactly one Patent
of Arms, not six.

(He stated just below that Royal Peerages no longer conveyed an
automatic patent, so that can be read as "not up to six".) I would
say that, for purposes of completeness, the later awards should be
listed, but they should just be understood to be null actions.

Restated and amplified in the January 1983 Laurel meeting
(<http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1983/01/8301cl.html>):

There still seems to be some confusion on my statement regarding
patents of arms. A person holds arms either by Award, Grant, or
Patent. In addition, s/he may acquire membership in various orders
and may receive various titles. These are entirely separate
conditions, except that certain titles and memberships carry with
them a minimum level for holding arms. Thus, the title of Court
Baron or Court Baroness or membership in an order that carries
with it the right to an Award of Arms all have a minimum level of
holding arms by Award of Arms. If they are received by a person
who is already armigerous, then the level of holding arms is
unaffected. If the recipient is not already armigerous, then s/he
receives an Award of Arms and now holds arms by Award. Membership
in an order that carries with it a Grant of Arms for those not
already at that level means that, if the person were previously
non-armigerous or held arms only by an Award, then s/he would now
receive a Grant of Arms and hold arms by Grant. If the person
already held a Grant of Arms or a Patent of Arms, then the
membership would not affect the member's armigerous status.

Someone who holds arms by Patent (i.e., has received a Patent of
Arms) has reached the top of the line for level of arms. No
further award, title, or membership can change this level of
holding arms by Patent. Thus, a person who becomes a knight is
given a Patent of Arms because the orders of the peerage carry
with them the minimum level of holding arms by Patent. If the
person later is admitted to the Order of the Laurel, his/her level
of holding arms is not changed, because s/he already held arms by
Patent. This means that s/he does not get a second Patent of
Arms. Should this individual later be made a Court Baron/ess, s/he
would not get an Award of Arms, because arms are already held by
Patent. Should s/he be admitted to an order that carries a Grant
of Arms, s/he would not receive the Grant of Arms, because arms
are already held by Patent, a higher level. S/he would simply
become a member of the order. If this individual were to resign
the knighthood, then s/he would still hold arms by Patent because
of membership in the Order of the Laurel. The date of seniority in
the peerage would change from that of the knighthood to that of
membership in the Order of the Laurel. Should this person then
also resign the Laurel, then s/he would hold arms by Grant by
virtue of the membership in the grant-bearing order. Now s/he
would have a Grant of Arms, with its date being the date of
admission to the grant-bearing order.

Thus you can see that once you have an Award of Arms, you cannot
receive another. Once you have a Grant of Arms, you cannot receive
another Grant or an Award of Arms. Once you have a Patent of Arms,
you cannot receive either an Award, Grant, or additional
Patent. You can receive many times over the right to these, should
you lose the first one, but you only hold arms at a single level
and only once at a time. You can acquire all sorts of titles and
memberships in orders, but your level of holding arms is either
that of Award, Grant, or Patent. This is equivalent to saying
that, once you have been admitted to a particular order, you
cannot be admitted to that order a second time, unless you first
resign your membership, because you already belong to the order.

And a brief aside in his February 1981 Cover Letter
(<http://kwhss.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1981/02/cl.htm>).

Danyell de Lincoln
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 3:16:29 PM1/31/07
to
In article <ltj1s25uvm26a4k4m...@4ax.com>,

Goedjn <pr...@mail.uri.edu> wrote:
>Not really relevent, since a peerage award isn't supposed to be about
>being good at your craft. It's supposed to be about being an
>exemplar of the type of person the SCA encourages you to be.

Well, both. Corpora VIII.1.A has General Requirements that include
"set an example of courteous and noble behavior suitable to a peer of
the realm." and such (<http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf>). But
skills are also listed as requirements. For the Chivalry, "must be
considered the equal of his or her prospective peers with the basic
weapons of tournament combat". For the Laurel, "must have attained
the standard of excellence in skill and/or knowledge equal to that of
his or her prospective peers in some area of the Arts or Sciences".
For the Pelican, "must have attained the standard of service to the
Society or any of its branches equal to that of his or her prospective
peers".

Danihel de Lincolnia
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Goedjn

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 3:28:48 PM1/31/07
to

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 6:39:44 PM1/31/07
to
In article <JCqz...@kithrup.com>,

Suggest in Ansteorra that Queen's [rapier] Champion is "imaginary" and
a grant is "real" and I think you would be corrected immediately. The
tournament is well-attended and the victor has great prestige, but I
don't recall that they have any duties other than holding a rapier and
standing behind the Queen if they happen to be at the same court
together. (I'm sure Tivar or Robin will correct me, like if the
Queen's Champion is expected to travel with the Queen or something.)

Or the Guardian of the Queen's Hope (the youth version of Queen's
Champion), or King's Champion, or ... In the real Middle Ages, King's
Champion would have been a most prestigious post, but the Ansteorran
rapier fighters have rather a cult of Gloriana set up.

I can imagine a Royal Dancing Master, for example, whose duties are to
teach dances to the king and queen at need, even though the need is
pretty rare in practice.

Daniel Lincolnia
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 6:52:28 PM1/31/07
to
In article <n7bsn-2DEC5E....@individual.net>,

Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <45BFFEA6...@pobox.com>,
> Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> Sigh. With utmost respect, I *really* hope it was done as a joke.
>> You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
>> It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.
>
>I don't have perfect knowledge, but that is true in no Kingdom I know
>of. eg AnTir could has 5 (FIVE) different awards with Grants
>attached.

I think it likely that all kingdoms give grant-level awards and/or
naked grants. But I don't understand your point: Steffan didn't say
that grant-level awards don't exist.

In any event, Steffan didn't say that you can't get a grant-level
award once you have a patent. It's that the grant part is
ineffective.

It's explained more fully in the Wilhelm texts I quoted elsewhere in
the thread. He distinguishes two effects of an armigerous award:
(1) membership in an order or reception of an award
(2) elevation in level to Award of Arms, Grant of Arms, or
Patent of Arms

For example, if someone with no other awards gets into the Order of
the Sable Fewmet, a grant-level order, he gets the order itself and
his level is set to "grant". If he later gets into the Order of the
Velvet Fewmet, also a grant-level order, he gets the order, but he's
already at grant level, so his level remains unchanged. In the second
respect, it's pouring water on someone who's already soaking.

Daniel de Lindocollino
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Richard Macdonald

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 6:58:30 PM1/31/07
to
"Charly the Bastard" <nitecr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:45C0918D...@worldnet.att.net...

I joined the SCA back in 1981 and got my AOA in 1997,
and ordered grant in 2002. Don't ever expect a peerage.

Not worried about it, I can still beat a lot of the young'uns.
--
Don Iain of Rannoch, CWST
Husband to Lady Elizabeth of Cranstone
--
Richard A. Macdonald, CPA/EA
Be thankful we're not getting all
the government we're paying for.
-- Will Rogers


Greg Lindahl

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 7:19:56 PM1/31/07
to
In article <epr9c0$c1p$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:

>I can imagine a Royal Dancing Master, for example, whose duties are to
>teach dances to the king and queen at need, even though the need is
>pretty rare in practice.

Er, that depends on who defines "need".

-- Gregory, dancing master


Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 7:19:02 PM1/31/07
to
In article <epr9c0$c1p$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <JCqz...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <epqkjd$331$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> There's also symbolic or nominal offices.
>>
>>/shrug
>>
>>Like access to the royal hawking grounds, these would be purely
>>imaginary. To the extent that anything in the SCA is "real", a
>>Grant is "real", and a symbolic or nominal office isn't.
>
>Suggest in Ansteorra that Queen's [rapier] Champion is "imaginary" and
>a grant is "real" and I think you would be corrected immediately.

Then they are "real" in Ansteorra. There's a Queen's Champion in
the West too, but he's a heavy fighter. The Queen gets to pick
him however she likes, either by naming him directly or by
holding a tournament (usually right after Coronation).

If a King were to make "Keeper of the King's Hawks" an established,
recurring office, or establish an Order of Falconers, and his
successors were to keep it up, that office or that Order would
eventually become "real" to the populace. The King of the West,
at the time we've been discussing, wanted to give something to
the three individuals (who had worked their butts off to protect
the Kingdom) that would be "real" *at that time,* not invented on
the spot.

Nor can I think what he could have invented on the spot that
would have suited all three. There is a non-armigerous order
called the Defenders of the West, usually given to people who
have worked hard to support the West in interKingdom wars (not
necessarily by fighting), but ... all three already had it.
Their other major fields accomplishments were, respectively,
fighting and leading war-bands, scribery and belly-dancing, and
woodworking and photography.


Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com

Charly the Bastard

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 7:50:09 PM1/31/07
to
Tim McDaniel wrote:

Oh, that's the problem. Telling the truth doesn't qualify as 'courteous
and noble behavior'. Dumb Dworf...

Charly

Steve Mesnick

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 10:38:19 PM1/31/07
to
Daniel of Lincoln wrote:

[Dorothea] wrote:
>> Maybe you could first look up the place in the Society governing
>> documents where it says that if you already have a Patent you
>> can't get a Grant?
>
> Corpora VI.C.1 (<http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf>)...

> Wilhelm von Schl{u"}ssel, Laurel LoAR Cover Letter for the November
> 1982 Cover Letter (<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/1982/10/cl2.htm>)...

> Restated and amplified in the January 1983 Laurel meeting
> (<http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1983/01/8301cl.html>)...

> And a brief aside in his February 1981 Cover Letter
> (<http://kwhss.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1981/02/cl.htm>).

Quod erat demontrandum.

Thanks, Daniel. Great work.

Steffan

Steve Mesnick

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 10:52:30 PM1/31/07
to
Daniel wrote:

>> [Steffan] wrote:
>>> Freedom from taxes? Hawking rights in the royal reserve?
[Dorothea replied]:

>> ... There are no royal hawking reserves. Anything along those lines
>> would have been, again, a joke ...
[Daniel:]

> Steffan's comment can also be considered metynomy for franchises in
> general...If there are customary

> restrictions on behavior around the king and queen ("do not approach
> within 15 feet without express permission" or whatever), the privilege
> to approach the king and queen at any reasonable time would also be a
> notable mark of favor. There's also symbolic or nominal offices.

Precisely. These "jocular tenures" and "grand serjanties" aren't
difficult to come up with,
and are exquisitely medieval, far beyond our twisted system of
awards/grants/patents
and innumerable orders. I hold a couple of these privileges myself, as
consideration granted
for allowing permission to conflict with some of my heraldry. In
Bjornsburg, Ansteorra, the
Order of the Firebrand, on St. Stephen's Day, (or should a companion
attend the Pennsic War,
on the Feast of the Assumption), must drink to my health and in praise
of logical
argument. In Hawkwood, Atlantia (the seat of the Order of the Silver
Wings of Hawkwood), I have
the right to go hawking in the forests of the baronial demesne (except
that I am not permitted to
take stags).

There oughta be a *lot* more of this, IMO.

Steffan

Steve Mesnick

unread,
Jan 31, 2007, 11:10:08 PM1/31/07
to
Dorothea said:
>> What we *don't* have is the convention, so common elsewhere that
>> Steffan seems to assume that it is Society-wide, that a Grant is
>> a stepping-stone on the way from an AoA to a Peerage.

Daniel said:
> You misunderstand. [Snip].

Yup. What he said. Thanks again, Daniel.

> Note that Laurel Sovereign of Arms has not defined a style
> specifically for grant level. The defined title is "Lord/Lady" (or
> forms that have been deemed to be corresponding in other languages).

For the curious, I'm afraid the "enabling legislation", such as it is,
*does* exist:

"I received a number of good suggestions concerning holders of Grants of
Arms. In addition to the collar they may already wear, they will have
the form of address of "Your Lordship" or "Your Ladyship." When written
to or referred to in the third person, they will be "The Honourable Lord
X" or "The Honourable Lady Y." All of these are period forms that will
help distinguish a Grantholder from an Awardholder."
Laurel Cover Letter, Oct. 1981
<http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1981/10/cl.htm>

Note that there is great debate, even now, over 25 years later, whether
Wilhelm had authority to make
that pronouncement. Also note that it was never codified in any other
compilation or promulgation
of general SCA law (e.g. Corpora) or Laurel regulations/policies. It
exists only as this precedent. But, alas,
it does exist. Take that as you will.

I was there, Gandalf. I was there.

Steffan

Robert Uhl

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 2:18:44 AM2/1/07
to
Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> writes:

> In Bjornsburg, Ansteorra, the Order of the Firebrand, on St. Stephen's
> Day, (or should a companion attend the Pennsic War, on the Feast of
> the Assumption), must drink to my health and in praise of logical
> argument. In Hawkwood, Atlantia (the seat of the Order of the Silver
> Wings of Hawkwood), I have the right to go hawking in the forests of
> the baronial demesne (except that I am not permitted to take stags).

I just want to say that I _heartily_ endorse such measures--although the
word of a nobody ain't worth much. Esp. if said Firebrands a) exist and
b) do actually drink your health on said day.

> There oughta be a *lot* more of this, IMO.

AOL

--
Guthlac of Caerthe <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
I __resent__ a government that forces me to make metal foil part of my personal
data protection plan. --Roger Burton West, on RFID passports

Mike Andrews

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 9:27:07 AM2/1/07
to
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:10:08 -0500, Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote in <45C16820...@pobox.com>:

> For the curious, I'm afraid the "enabling legislation", such as it is,
> *does* exist:

> "I received a number of good suggestions concerning holders of Grants of
> Arms. In addition to the collar they may already wear, they will have
> the form of address of "Your Lordship" or "Your Ladyship." When written
> to or referred to in the third person, they will be "The Honourable Lord
> X" or "The Honourable Lady Y." All of these are period forms that will
> help distinguish a Grantholder from an Awardholder."
> Laurel Cover Letter, Oct. 1981
> <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1981/10/cl.htm>

> Note that there is great debate, even now, over 25 years later,
> whether Wilhelm had authority to make that pronouncement. Also note
> that it was never codified in any other compilation or promulgation
> of general SCA law (e.g. Corpora) or Laurel regulations/policies. It
> exists only as this precedent. But, alas, it does exist. Take that
> as you will.

> I was there, Gandalf. I was there.

So, then, tell us more about this collar which holders of GoAs may
already wear. I find myself ... _strangely_ interested.

Ralph E Lindberg

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 9:51:54 AM2/1/07
to
In article <JCr05...@kithrup.com>,

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <4JSdnWqmrb_8Q13Y...@comcast.com>,
> Jay Rudin <ru...@ev1.net> wrote:
> >Dorothy J Heydt responded to Steve Mesnick :
> >
> >>>You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
> >>>It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.
> >
> >The analogy isn't analogous. When a captain becomes a colonel, he ceases to
> >be a captain. When I became a peer, I continued to have a Grant of Arms,
> >even though it gave me no rank, precedence or degree that I wouldn't have
> >had without it.
> >
> >This is also complicated by the fact that some Orders carry Grants of Arms.
> >I was made a member of a two Grant orders, one for arts and one for rattan
> >combat, after I received my Pelican. These did not give me Grants, however,
> >because I already had one -- from the White Scarf (also a Grant order). I
> >also was inducted into a Grant order for service on my way to the Pelican.
>
> There is an Order in the West that carries a Grant --- I think
> it's for archers, but it's so seldom given that I can't wrap my
> memory around it.

Grey Goose (same as AnTir) I think.

TTFN
Ralg
AnTir

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

Ralph E Lindberg

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 9:54:15 AM2/1/07
to
In article <45C16820...@pobox.com>,
Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:

I've heard Liz (Countess Elizebeth), current Laurel Soveriegn, use the
title.

Richard R. Hershberger

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 10:02:58 AM2/1/07
to

Schlussel made several pronouncements with questionable authority.
Some years ago I was involved in a raging debate on a similar issue
and was told that while Corpora didn't actually give Laurel the
authority, it was ratified by the BoD at some unknown time and place,
with the ruling never written down. Hard to argue with that!

As for forms of address, if you squint and the light is dim you might
be able to shoehorn forms of address into Laurel's authority over
"royal and noble titles". The main topic of this thread, on the other
hand? It is going to take more than romantic candlelight and a few
glasses of wine to convince me.

There are also seperate situations at hand: the guy who received his
AoA long long ago in a kingdom far far away, who is again so honored
because nobody realized he (like the French and the Holy Grail)
already got one. I think people agree that duplicate bare AoAs are
redundant, like being entered into the same order twice. The crown
issuing a bare grant fully aware that the recipient already has a
patent of arms is a different situation. The answer may be the same,
but there will be different roads to that destination.

Finally, I have a hard time caring. The SCA awards system is
blatantly non-period. What difference does it make precisely what
blatantly non-period form it takes? If someone wants to present an
argument that it is important for the kingdoms to have uniform
practice in this regard, I would be happy to listen. But absent some
such argument, what we have is at best irrelevant and at worst a petty
power play for control of the sandbox.

In terra pax,
Rouland Carre

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 10:13:48 AM2/1/07
to
In article <n7bsn-49204D....@individual.net>,

Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <JCr05...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> There is an Order in the West that carries a Grant --- I think
>> it's for archers, but it's so seldom given that I can't wrap my
>> memory around it.
> Grey Goose (same as AnTir) I think.

No, I don't *think* so. Royal Yeomen, maybe?

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 2:13:50 PM2/1/07
to
In article <45C163FE...@pobox.com>,

Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:
>In Hawkwood, Atlantia (the seat of the Order of the Silver Wings of
>Hawkwood), I have the right to go hawking in the forests of the
>baronial demesne (except that I am not permitted to take stags).

OK, I'm confused.

(1) You're not allowed to have your hawks take stags?
What the Hell do you have in your mews, rocs?!

(2) You're not allowed to take a stag with you when you go hawking?
I supposed you could train it to be a retriever, one that wouldn't
scare other wildlife.

Daniel "a stag once bit my sister" Lindum
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 2:21:33 PM2/1/07
to
In article <1170342178....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>As for forms of address, if you squint and the light is dim you might
>be able to shoehorn forms of address into Laurel's authority over
>"royal and noble titles".

That's not the only place. Under Corpora VIII.D:

4. The titles listed here are considered standard, and may be used
by those who have earned or been granted the appropriate rank or
award within the Society. The College of Arms publishes a more
extensive list of titles and alternative forms, which may also be
used freely by qualified persons. In addition, the College of Arms
has full approval authority over new alternative titles, which
must be added to their list before being released for use in the
Society.

Since it distinguishes "more extensive list of titles" from
"alternative forms/titles" (and it's pretty clear that the latter
refers to translations), it's hard to read it other than saying that
Laurel can define new titles. But under VIII.E:

3. Granting and creation of new titles The Board reserves the
right to define the circumstances for which new titles of rank may
be granted and to coin any such titles either for general use or
for specific individuals.

>Finally, I have a hard time caring. The SCA awards system is
>blatantly non-period. What difference does it make precisely what
>blatantly non-period form it takes?

Addressing the question in general, rather than the instant case: the
bad should be the enemy of the worst. If the Augean Stables have only
two feet of manure rather than three, I nevertheless consider it an
improvement.

Danielis de Lincolino
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Jay Rudin

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 3:04:15 PM2/1/07
to
Just to confuse things further, receiving a Grant after a peerage can in
fact have a theoretical (unlikely but potential) effect.

X is given an Award of Arms in 2000, then a Knighthood in 2003. Later, he
is given a Grant of Arms in 2005. Two years later, he chooses to resign his
belt and chain. What is his precedence? If the Grant was real, his
precedence is GoA 2005. If it is not real, then his precedence is AoA 2000.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin


Mike Andrews

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 3:30:37 PM2/1/07
to

Greetings, Robin.

I can't help thinking that the "reality" of his grant in this edge case[1]
is going to depend on:
(1) Whether his "grant" is even entered into his kingdom's OP, and
(2) How the OP database is updated.

I'm thinking out loud here, and my conclusion is that this is going to be
decidedly procedure-and-implementation-dependent, and that I'm not sure of
any SCA-wide consensus on the proper procedure and implementation.

In the "grant after Peerage is null" school, the herald maintaining the
DB won't even update it with the grant, seeing that the grant is lower
than the Peerage already awarded. When the Peerage is removed, or marked
"Resigned". in the DB, the only other award is the AoA, as you posit,
and so X has precedence AoA 2000.

In the "All awards are recorded" school, if the GoA is simply recorded and
not noted as a lower award than the existing Peerage *and* if the updater,
when marking the Peerage "resigned", does not note that the GoA was given
after the Peerage, X will have precedence GoA 2005, as you posit. If, OTOH,
the updater notes that the Peerage predates the GoA *and* marks the GoA as
null, X has precedence AoA 2000, again as you posit.

The third school, in which all awards are real, simply notes the Peerage as
"resigned" and marks X as having precedence GoA 2005.

But the outcome depends on the procedures having been (not) thought through
for conformity with the reality of the GoA. I wonder how the different
Kingdom OP Heralds deal with this. Care to bet on this being handled the
same "right"[3] way in all of them?

[1] Not a slam; constructed edge cases are useful in discovering how
things work, as distinct from how they *should* work.[2]

[2] "In theory,theory and practice are identical; in practice, they
are not."

[3] Whatever "right" means in this context. I'm in the "all awards are
real" school myself. If the Crown didn't want the person to have the
award, the Crown wouldn't have bestowed it. The "grant after Peerage
is null" school wants to nullify an explicit recorded act of the
Crown which is within the purview and powers of the Crown, and I'm not
for that. As Peers, you and I have the privilege of telling the Crown
"this isn't really the right thing to do, and here's why", and I think
that's the route to take here. The Herald(s) also should tell the
Crown that a GoA given after a Peerage is null and void if they think
it is -- and then stand out in Court and read the text if the Crown
still want to give it.

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 4:16:31 PM2/1/07
to
In article <T4KdnR4Ei89c2l_Y...@comcast.com>,

Thank you for such an elegant example.

I think that a resignation of award X should affect only award X, not
any other awards that were given in the past -- I think that a
resignation should be an annulment. So I do not think that it is
reasonable to have the "order of operations" of one person's awards to
affect their level of precedence. So I think that the only reasonable
course is to say that something that carries a Grant of Arms is real,
regardless of whether it's a naked grant or no; it has no effect on
the person's level of armigeritudity so long as the person holds a
Patent-level award.

Danel Lincoln
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

Brian M. Scott

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 4:33:16 PM2/1/07
to
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:21:33 +0000 (UTC), Tim McDaniel
<tm...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:eptejs$p5n$1...@reader2.panix.com> in rec.org.sca:

[...]

> If the Augean Stables have only two feet of manure rather
> than three, I nevertheless consider it an improvement.

And were you but two feet tall ... ?

Talan

jk

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 5:05:30 PM2/1/07
to

tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:


>Corpora VI.C.1 (<http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf>):
>
> The Laurel Sovereign of Arms (Laurel) is the principal heraldic
> officer of the Society and the head of the College of Arms. Laurel
> is responsible for fostering the study and practice of heraldry,
> and for establishing December 5, 2006 revision Corpora December 5,
> 2006 revision 16 rules and making determinations regarding names
> and armory, royal and noble titles, and geographical designations
> to be approved for use in the Society.
>
>Wilhelm von Schl{u"}ssel, Laurel LoAR Cover Letter for the November
>1982 Cover Letter (<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/1982/10/cl2.htm>):
>
> Another question concerns multiple awards. There are three levels
> of arms in the SCA: arms by Award, Grant, or Patent, in increasing
> order of precedence. Once you receive a particular level of arms,
> you cannot later receive that same or lower level, as such action
> would have no meaning or effect. Thus, a person who receives an
> Award of Arms is an armiger. If a King incorrectly later gives
> that armiger a second Award of Arms, that second action is null
> and void because it has no effect: the person was already an
> armiger. The ceremony of the presentation of the second Award of
> Arms did serve the purpose of expressing the King's desire to
> reward the armiger, and so was of some effect, but the second
> Award of Arms should not be listed in the Order of Precedence.

I think he slightly oversteps his authority (as referenced above)
here.

>
> Similarly, if a Grant of Arms holder receives a later Award of
> Arms or Grant of Arms, the later action is of no effect and should
> not be listed. If a holder or a Patent of Arms later receives an
> Award of Arms, a Grant of Arms, or another Patent of Arms, then
> the later action is of no effect and should not be listed. You can
> only receive one Patent of Arms. A man who is a Knight, a Pelican,
> a Laurel, a Viscount, a Count, and a Duke has exactly one Patent
> of Arms, not six.

And definitely here.
I would argue that the person does indeed have x many patents, grants
or awards, but has rights only to one set of arms.

I mostly agree with ten above as phrased here

> If this individual were to resign
> the knighthood, then s/he would still hold arms by Patent because
> of membership in the Order of the Laurel. The date of seniority in
> the peerage would change from that of the knighthood to that of
> membership in the Order of the Laurel. Should this person then
> also resign the Laurel, then s/he would hold arms by Grant by
> virtue of the membership in the grant-bearing order. Now s/he
> would have a Grant of Arms, with its date being the date of
> admission to the grant-bearing order.

I don't think the assumption that resigning membership in the order,
automatically revokes the patent. To assume that it does, would tend
to contradict the assumption that the second patent had no effect.

In the one Court of Chiv case I was at the proclamation of the
results for, I seem to recall (this is ancient history now) that the
removal from the order was separate from the loss of rank and
privilege.

>
> Thus you can see that once you have an Award of Arms, you cannot
> receive another. Once you have a Grant of Arms, you cannot receive
> another Grant or an Award of Arms. Once you have a Patent of Arms,
> you cannot receive either an Award, Grant, or additional
> Patent. You can receive many times over the right to these,

But the grand, award, patent, IS the right.


> should
> you lose the first one, but you only hold arms at a single level
> and only once at a time. You can acquire all sorts of titles and
> memberships in orders, but your level of holding arms is either
> that of Award, Grant, or Patent. This is equivalent to saying
> that, once you have been admitted to a particular order, you
> cannot be admitted to that order a second time, unless you first
> resign your membership, because you already belong to the order.
>
>And a brief aside in his February 1981 Cover Letter
>(<http://kwhss.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1981/02/cl.htm>).
>
>Danyell de Lincoln

I also think he is incorrect in the assumption that a court barony
automatically gives you an award, at least in the west, but I could be
wrong on that.


jk

jk

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 5:07:33 PM2/1/07
to
Steve Mesnick <ste...@pobox.com> wrote:

> In Hawkwood, Atlantia (the seat of the Order of the Silver
>Wings of Hawkwood), I have
>the right to go hawking in the forests of the baronial demesne (except
>that I am not permitted to
>take stags).

Just what kind of bird do you fly, where that is even a consideration?


>
>There oughta be a *lot* more of this, IMO.
>
> Steffan

jk

jk

unread,
Feb 1, 2007, 5:29:32 PM2/1/07
to
"Jay Rudin" <ru...@ev1.net> wrote:

I think your assumption is wrong.
He still has a patent. Unless and until he gives up that as well.

[If you give me two gold coins, and I give you one back, I still have
the other one.]

"....Induct you into the order of the xxxxx .. AND grant you the right
to bear arms by letters patent."

Actually going back to read it, it is three separate items
"elevationPeerage" "membership", and the "Right to arms by letters
patent"

jk

Ralph E Lindberg

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 10:26:48 AM2/2/07
to
In article <JCsIB...@kithrup.com>,

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <n7bsn-49204D....@individual.net>,
> Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
> >In article <JCr05...@kithrup.com>,
> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >> There is an Order in the West that carries a Grant --- I think
> >> it's for archers, but it's so seldom given that I can't wrap my
> >> memory around it.
> > Grey Goose (same as AnTir) I think.
>
> No, I don't *think* so. Royal Yeomen, maybe?
>

Look at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Awards/GreyGooseShaft.htm and
see

TTFN
Ralg
AnTIr

Ralph E Lindberg

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 10:32:19 AM2/2/07
to
Curious about the Grant not counting idea I did a little research at
the on-line OP for AnTir, specifically looking for Elisabeth de
Rossignol who received Peerages in AS-18 (Royal), AS-20 (Royal), AS-22
(Pelican) and AS-24 (Laurel), she also got a GoA with her Goute De Sang
(lower level service award) in AS-30. For those that don't know she is
the current Laurel Queen of Arms. So, there is an OP entry, for the top
Herald in the SCA, showing a Grant -after- her Peerages.

Ralph E Lindberg

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 10:35:00 AM2/2/07
to
In article <hun4s29b93mkru1un...@4ax.com>,
jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

....


> I also think he is incorrect in the assumption that a court barony
> automatically gives you an award, at least in the west, but I could be
> wrong on that.
>

I think (???) it carries and AoA, if you don't already have one.

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 10:49:58 AM2/2/07
to
In article <n7bsn-71DA51....@individual.net>,

Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <hun4s29b93mkru1un...@4ax.com>,
> jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>....
>> I also think he is incorrect in the assumption that a court barony
>> automatically gives you an award, at least in the west, but I could be
>> wrong on that.
>>
> I think (???) it carries and AoA, if you don't already have one.

I think it does too, now, but originally it didn't: it was
invented back in single-digits as a sort of King's Order of Grace
that could be given to someone the King liked a lot, but hadn't
done anything much for the Society* to warrant an AoA.

And now it's one of the most coveted awards in the Kingdom,
probably because it's an actual medieval title. I know getting
my Court Barony a few years ago was at least as big a deal as
getting my Laurel way back when, and a much bigger deal than
getting the Pelican a year or two before that. (Because the
Pelican had been invented by the Bod and still carried a sort of
taint, which I'm happy to see has subsequently worn off.)

_______
*back in the days when the Society was coterminous with the West
Kingdom, and indeed, with what is now the Principality of the
Mists.

Dorothy J Heydt

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 10:51:47 AM2/2/07
to
In article <n7bsn-1A5215....@individual.net>,

Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <JCsIB...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> In article <n7bsn-49204D....@individual.net>,
>> Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>> >In article <JCr05...@kithrup.com>,
>> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> >
>> >> There is an Order in the West that carries a Grant --- I think
>> >> it's for archers, but it's so seldom given that I can't wrap my
>> >> memory around it.
>> > Grey Goose (same as AnTir) I think.
>>
>> No, I don't *think* so. Royal Yeomen, maybe?
>>
> Look at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Awards/GreyGooseShaft.htm and
>see

Okay. You will have noticed that my knowledge of ancient history
is greater than my knowledge of current practice. This is
because I'm old and tired and don't get out much.

AElflaed of Duckford

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Feb 2, 2007, 11:45:17 AM2/2/07
to
On Jan 30, 3:25 pm, quiet...@popmail.com wrote:
> I have a friend who just got his Grant ofArms 30 years after joing the
> SCA. Only took him 5 for an AOA. How long does it usually take? I
> toldhim he needs to suckup more, then it wouldn't have taken so long.


I see two problems you might want to discuss with your friend.

It never helps to use the phrase "his Grant of Arms" of an award.
When people say "When did you get your Laurel?" I rephrase, and say I
was made a Laurel... " (first I have to figure out when...) or "I
don't 'have' a Laurel, it's an order to which I was
admitted." (Depending whether the person really could understand or
benefit.)

It's worse when people speak of "their [whatever]" when they truly
don't have and might never have one. I could speak of my (future)
PhD, but as what I have is a BA, everyone around would think I was
just crass and clueless. Even people in a PhD program might have no
PhD in the future, and would be really ill advised to say "My
doctorate..."

So with the SCA, anytime someone says "When I get my knighthood" (as
though along with armor came the ghostly outline of a future
knighthood that belonged to the person; was HIS), or "When I'm a
knight..." that sets him back a while everytime he says it, in many
people's minds.

So wanting an award is a step away from getting an award much of the
time (and should be so more of the time, but some kings are loyal to
friends and households over ideals and kingdoms).

The other problem is the idea that if one is in long enough, awards
are "due." One of the worst things I ever heard, long ago, late 70's
Atenveldt (when Atenveldt was Arizona-to-shining-sea) was "Everyone
can be a peer someday. Good fighters will be knights, good artists
will be laurels, and the rest, if they stay in long enough, will
eventually be pelicans."

I shudder just remembering it.

Good and helpful people with shining, positive attitudes who forgot
there even were awards will be rewarded sooner than people who do the
minimum and wonder or complain about why they weren' rewarded for it.

AElflaed of Duckford
Outlands


AElflaed of Duckford

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 11:52:25 AM2/2/07
to

> You can't *get* a grant if you already have a patent (as a peer).
> It's like giving captain's bars to a colonel.

If SCA reward records were like the military, you'd be right. But SCA
awards look like a long list of honors. They're more like a girl
scout sash than captain's bars, and if someone's missing a badge that
can be added later, even though most of the girls got it years ago, it
just makes her sash spiffier.

The whole award- and grant- and patent- of arms is silly already.
Arms is arms. Only in the SCA, one can register arms prior to being
awarded or granted (with or without "letters patent") the right to
bear them.

The three-level effect is just silly SCA stuff, and it doesn't really
matter, as different things come with different privileges.

Koris Natterhelm was knighted before he had an award of arms, so he
isn't "privileged" to use the title "Lord." He's got Sir and Master
and Duke to fall back on, and he's not pining for an AoA or a grant.

http://wimble.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?Letter=&PersonID=1576
Probably one of those baronial level awards carries an award of arms
with it... so he's probably "covered." <g>

Someone elsewhere in this discussion said two AoAs was like being
admitted to the same order twice, but an award of arms doesn't make
one a member of an order. It grants rights and privilege.

AElflaed of Duckford
Outlands

Tim McDaniel

unread,
Feb 2, 2007, 12:03:33 PM2/2/07
to
In article <JCuEn...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <n7bsn-71DA51....@individual.net>,
>Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>>In article <hun4s29b93mkru1un...@4ax.com>,
>> jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>....
>>> I also think he is incorrect in the assumption that a court barony
>>> automatically gives you an award, at least in the west, but I
>>> could be wrong on that.
>>>
>> I think (???) it carries and AoA, if you don't already have one.
>
>I think it does too

Rather than just repeating "think", you could post reliable
information by checking the Governing Documents URL I posted several
articles up: <http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf> It can be found
easily off the SCA main page <http://www.sca.org/>: click on
"Governing Documents, ..." to go to <http://www.sca.org/docs/>, page
down a little to the link "Governing Documents of the SCA,
Inc. (PDF)".

The first few search phrases I tried didn't find the statement, but
"award of arms" found it in Corpora VIII.B:

1. The title of Baron or Baroness, whether territorial or of the
court, shall carry at least an Award of Arms if the recipient
is not already armigerous.

The titles section at the bottom also refers to it:

(Court) Baron/ (Court) Baroness
Armigerous titles awarded at the discretion of the Crown.

>And now it's one of the most coveted awards in the Kingdom,
>probably because it's an actual medieval title.

Unfortunately, only halfway. "Baron" is certainly a period title, but
in the definition of "court baron", "court" is the noun and "baron" is
the adjective, just like "court martial".

Court-baron \Court"-bar`on\ (-b?r`?n), n. (Law)
An inferior court of civil jurisdiction, attached to a
manor, and held by the steward; a baron's court; -- now
fallen into disuse.
[1913 Webster]

Tim McDaniel

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Feb 2, 2007, 12:13:28 PM2/2/07
to
In article <yabt07y0vf1s.glrtkf7w4lmh$.d...@40tude.net>,

What else? I'd go stand on Saint Bernard's shoulders.

(But I recall from our meetings that, erm, your head is rather in
greater proximity to the ground than mine. "You" might be
reconsidered.)

Dannet de Linccolne
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com