German history and Scottish names
Richard Keith
Hello Good Gentles of the Relm
May this day bringeth joy and well being to all.
I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
for my persona. If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
mannerism of say the Hessa Casa regions and Prussia vs the rest of
Europe. I am also a woodwright as well as a cook, Illuminator etc. and
am trying to mould my persona as carefully as possible. At this time I
do not read German but am willing to learn.
A Friend of mine is trying to find an appropreiate Scottish name for her
personia, 6th century. She is Currrently useing the name FAhe, a family
name. Any help would be appreicated.
I am also working on a project on learning heraldry. I would appreicate
people sending me their peronal, barony or household devices, so that I
might better be able to learn whom people are. A little about yourself
would be nice also.
Thankyou Lord Frederick de Maud.
of the Marche of the Three Towers
Barony of the Middle Marches
Middle Kingdom
Gerhard Lagersuufer
Richard Keith wrote:
> I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
> for my persona. If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
> help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
> mannerism of say the Hessa Casa regions and Prussia vs the rest of
> Europe.
You have quite a broad timeline as far as costuming goes. Fashions
changed alot during that period.
> I am also a woodwright as well as a cook, Illuminator etc. and
> am trying to mould my persona as carefully as possible. At this time I
> do not read German but am willing to learn.
The trick is to learn medieval german :-)
Gerhard Lagersuufer
Shannon Moyes
Gerhard Lagersuufer <geo...@idt.net> wrote:
: Richard Keith wrote:
: > I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
: > for my persona. If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
: > help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
: > mannerism of say the Hessa Casa regions and Prussia vs the rest of
: > Europe.
: You have quite a broad timeline as far as costuming goes. Fashions
: changed alot during that period.
Yes, you will need to narrow your search down. Also, remember that Prussia
is a creation of the late 1600. Look for Brandenburg and Marksburg in more
period writings. A really good historical map is a wonderful thing.
: > I am also a woodwright as well as a cook, Illuminator etc. and
: > am trying to mould my persona as carefully as possible. At this time I
: > do not read German but am willing to learn.
: The trick is to learn medieval german :-)
Start with High German and make sure you learn dative and genative structure
and then just start reading. Sometimes you understand it, mostly you don't
but the more you read the clearer things become.
Rossilin K. von Hohenzollern
Richard Keith
Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>
> Richard Keith (RKeith-Fred...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>
> : A Friend of mine is trying to find an appropreiate Scottish name for her
> : personia, 6th century. She is Currrently useing the name FAhe, a family
> : name. Any help would be appreicated.
>
> ethnic makeup of 6th century Scotland is vastly different from that of the
> more familiar late-period Scotland (or the most-familiar post-period
> Scotland). For example, a common belief that one encounters in the SCA is
> that "Scotland=Gaelic" -- never true at any time in period, but
> particularly, Gaelic-speaking people from Ireland only began migrating to
> western Scotland at the tail end of the 5th century, and by the end
> of the 6th were still pretty much confined to a small area in the
> Strathclye region. (Ref.: Lloyd Liaing "Celtic Britain") Similarly, at
> this time the Norse settlements that had such a major cultural influence
> on the northern and western parts of Scotland was still entirely in the
> future. The Anglo-Saxon advance had only begun to nibble away at the
> southernmost edges of modern Scotland, and the large Brythonic-speaking
> kingdoms of Rheged and Gododdin (among others) filled the region we now
> think of as "lowland Scotland". The bulk of the highland regions were
> occupied by the Pictish kingdoms, speaking -- as best we can tell -- some
> mixture of the now-unknown Pictish language and a Brythonic language. (The
> Brythonic languages of Scotland during this period would have been
> extremely similar to the version of Welsh spoken during the same period,
> but it would be somewhat misleading to say they "spoke Welsh".)
>
> I am unable to find reference to your friend's family name "Fahe", but I
> feel confident in suggesting that it would not have been used in any
> recognizable version in 6th century Scotland.
>
> Our sources for names from this region and period are tricky to deal with
> as they are all transmitted through documents written centuries afterward,
> often in completely different langauges than those of the people
> described. I discuss some of these considerations in an extensive article
> I wrote entitled "A Consideration of Pictish Names" which is available on
> the Academy of St. Gabriel web site. The best clues to the Brythonic names
> in use in this context are personal names included in the poem "Y
> Gododdin" which purports to describe 6th century events, although the
> language and form of the names of the earliest version we have date to no
> earlier than the 9th century. Other northern Brythonic names can be found
> in traditional pedigrees of 6th c. figures, which can be found in later
> medieval versions in P.C. Bartrum's "Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts". (As
> with the Gododdin material, the earliest _written_ versions of this -- and
> thus the precise spellings of the names -- date from much later, the 12th
> century, in this case.) The medieval Irish historical annals can provide
> names for some of the Gaelic-speaking settlers of the Dal Riata, however,
> as with the preceeding, the written records are of a later date and
> spellings in them reflect that later date.
>
> The linguistic problems of reconstructing an appropriate 6th century form
> of any of these are not insurmountable (I do similar reconstructions for
> people on a regular basis, but keep in mind that I'm a professional
> linguist -- kids, don't try this at home!). But I'd suggest that your
> friend do some reading about conditions and history in the north of
> Britain in the 6th century and get a better idea of what location and
> cultural context she is interested in fitting into. For this, I strongly
> recommend either Lloyd Laing's "Celtic Britain" (part of the "Britain
> Before the Conquest" series) or John Morris's "The Age of Arthur".
>
> Please feel free to contact me for further help.
>
> Tangwystyl verch Morgant GlasvrynThank you the depth of your answer. I will also look at the article you
mentioned at the ST Gabriel web site{URL?}. While not the personia I
seek for myself, My father's family came from the lowlands, Keith. That
about all I know. ITs good to see that someone besides my self knows
that the Picts moved south through britain to wales, erie and back to
Scotland. Al least that is what I remember from a Art History class two
decades ago. I will passs on this information as soon as I can.
Thanks again
Frederick de Maud
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <340ECB...@idt.net>, ge...@schemel.com wrote:
> The trick is to learn medieval german :-)
But it gets a little easier AL (After Luther)...
--
To respond via email, remove non-licit characters to change my site to "cornell.edu".
Who is this goober, anyway? You can find out a little at:
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <340F37...@worldnet.att.net>, Richard Keith
<RKeith-Fred...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Thank you for all you answers. I wish they had a hooked on Phonics
> class for German. Hmmmmm. Perhaps they do. I will have to write them
German is phonetically spelled--the problem is that English and German
grammars and lexicons have diverged sufficiently so that one is not merely
a cipher for the other.
> and see. Than I could take my daughters in english and compare it to
> the German version. Thanks for the Idea. We also have alot of Amish in
> the area whom I believe speak High German.
Well, they speak *a* German, I doubt that it's Hochdeutsch.
> I am curious to the date for formation of Pussia about 1600, as another
> source told me that the Prussians were wiped out almost entirely much
> earlier by one of the western states of Germany as a Christain
> Conversion Techique.
The "Prussians" that you speak of are the Baltic tribe that was wiped out
by the Teutonic Order. They lived in a land known as "Prussia", but there
was no political entity known as "Prussia". The Germans then settled the
area and took the name as their own.
Ag60046004
Greetings, Fredrick de Maud! You posted on Rialto:
"I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
for my persona. If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
mannerism of say the Hessa Casa regions and Prussia vs the rest of
Europe. I am also a woodwright as well as a cook, Illuminator etc. and
am trying to mould my persona as carefully as possible. At this time I
do not read German but am willing to learn..." <snip>
One of the best overall books on medieval European history that
I've yet found is The Oxford History of Medieval Europe, edited
by George Holmes, published by Oxford University Press (1992).
It gives a good overview of Europe during the rough time period
that the SCA covers. I picked it up myself only recently, in
paperback, so it should be available at a large bookseller near
you. If you get the paperback version, it shouldn't be too
expensive, either.
In particular, I bought the book because it gave me a level of
detail on German medieval history which I've seldom been
successful finding. It's good about detailing particular
lineages and regions of German-speaking areas, and also
helps explain why, at times, it's difficult to find much
written history about German-speaking people during
the Middle Ages.
Perhaps your librarians can help you, if your bookstore can't.
And if you have a university library nearby, I'd check with
their librarians, too.
As far as reading/speaking German goes, I wish you the
best of luck. I took 5 years of German (eons ago), and do
not speak medieval German, though I've been told I speak
German "completely without an American accent." Best
phrase I've yet learned in German:
"Ich spreche nur ein bisschen Deutsch: sprechen Sie
Englisch, bitte."
Best wishes in your search for material to build your
persona! If you find any particularly helpful sources,
please let me know at: ag600...@aol.com :-)
Danke!
In service,
Anneliese Grossmund, Barony of Mag Mor, Kingdom of Calontir
de...@goodnet.com
On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 06:26:20 -0400, Richard Keith
<RKeith-Fred...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Hello Good Gentles of the Relm
>
>May this day bringeth joy and well being to all.
>
>I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
>for my persona. If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
>help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
From what I've seen on the web, you probably won't find many people
who give a flying ---- about this sort of thing, but I was an English
major, and it's a wildly waving red-flag annoyance to me: the -est
and -eth endings which were used in period were used in very specific
circumstances, not on every friggin' verb!
I seek
thou seekest
he seeks
we seek
you seek
they seek
And as far as I can tell (any lurking grammarians who've studied this,
please toss in your tuppence worth), the -eth ending so often used in
the King James Bible is only used for hypothetical/indefinite
situations: Who seeketh...
As for 13th-15th century German, for costuming, check out the works of
Albrecht Durer (working 1488-1527 or so). Also, McGraw-Hill put out a
series called "The Image of Woman," of which one book -- The
Renaissance Woman by Hannelore Sachs -- was translated from the German
and has primarily German illustrations. At the very least, it should
be useful for getting names of other period German artists.
Good luck!
--della
Brent Ermlick
de...@goodnet.com wrote:
. . .
: And as far as I can tell (any lurking grammarians who've studied this,
: please toss in your tuppence worth), the -eth ending so often used in
: the King James Bible is only used for hypothetical/indefinite
: situations: Who seeketh...
The "-eth" ending was the common ending of the third person present
singular for most verbs, i.e. he seeketh, he readeth, up till about
the time of the King James Bible. It's still the most common form
used in the King James Bible, but it is suspected that that this
form is going out of use in conversation at this time.
The form in "-s" is originally a northern form used in Northumberland
and Scotland. Starting in late Middle English or early Modern English
the "-s" form spread south through the midlands.
Shakespeare, who wrote a few years earlier than the King James
Bible, _mostly_ uses the "-eth" form (even in the speech if
illiterates), but you can find some occurrences of the "-s" form.
There doesn't seem to be any distinction in his usage between the
two forms.
80 or so years earlier than Shakespeare (say about the time of the
accession of Henry VIII) it's difficult to find any instances of the
"-s" form in London English.
Oh yes -- the form we usually use today (he is seeking, he is reading)
is extremely rare at the time of the King James Bible.
--
Brent J. Ermlick Veritas liberabit uos
br...@bermls.oau.org
Wolfram
Richard Keith wrote:
> Hello Good Gentles of the Relm
>
> May this day bringeth joy and well being to all.
>
> I seeketh wisdom and knowledge of Germany in and about the 1300- 1500
> for my persona.
If you are a fighter type check out military history books. Remember The
Germans most famous merc companies (the Lanskenect(?)). We created slash an
puff clothing which changed that periods fashion style. Other europeans
bought this style ,we took the cloths from the dead.. Thats how we got all
of the bright colors.. Also check up on Maximilian during the 1500's. He was
the Holy Roman Emperior.
good luck,
Wolfram
> If I may be so bold, I would appreicate any effort to
> help me find out the regional differences between the dress and
> mannerism of say the Hessa Casa regions and Prussia vs the rest of
> Europe. I am also a woodwright as well as a cook, Illuminator etc. and
> am trying to mould my persona as carefully as possible. At this time I
> do not read German but am willing to learn.
>
> A Friend of mine is trying to find an appropreiate Scottish name for her
> personia, 6th century. She is Currrently useing the name FAhe, a family
> name. Any help would be appreicated.
>
Richard Keith
Wolfram wrote:
> europeans
> bought this style ,we took the cloths from the dead.. Thats how we got all
>
> Wolfram
>
Took clothes from the dead? I had not heard this, can you give me more
information?
Thanks Frederick de Maud
Brad Daeda
I think I will but in here :-)
The early period landsknecht (1470-1520) were not very rich. They could
not afford much armor, and clothing for the cold. So, after every
battle, they would search through the remains and take clothing off the
dead as added protection from both weapons and the elements. The
clothing would not alway fit, so it would be slashed to fit. This let
the inside colors shine through and created a very gaudy look. This
look became the trademark of the landsknechte. Also, the feathers were
taken from the slain knight's helms and put into their own hats which
added even more to their colorfully gaudy look.
King Henry VIII was intrigued with the landsknecht and their fighting
expertise and often hired them for battles. In doing so, he got to like
the landsknecht look, and started dressing in a similar fashion. This
gaudy look was the prelude to the 'puff & slash' look of the
renaissance. The landsknecht, without knowing it, became the trend
setters of renaissance wear.
--
(-Brad
aka Tristan der Landsknecht