What is "cloven fruit"?
Sk8Maven
> I'm new to the SCA: What the heck is cloven fruit?!?! Sounds like
> it could be fun, actually.....What's the history behind this custom?
Strictly speaking, it's an "invented-in-the-SCA" custom dating back to a St.
Valentine's Day Feast in the Canton of the Towers, Barony of Carolingia, East
Kingdom, AS 8. (Mistress) Alizaunde de Breguef (aka Onna Wicca, aka "That
Pict", aka Honour - she posts here occasionally) wanted to run a kissing game
as part of the festivities. So, with a little help and encouragement, she
combined the idea of pomanders (citrus fruit embedded with cloves) and
elements from various known period kissing games ("Prinkum Prankum", etc.),
and tossed out the first cloved lemon with the words,
"Cloved lemon, cloved lemon, who's got it? Who cares?
Whoever gets it kisses anybody they want to--
That's different!"
She thought it would be forgotten as soon as the event was over - WRONG! :-)
Maven
Bakner
Lord Xbrew
it as such
"He gave his lover a cloven lemon" which would have been an expensive use of
these two uncommon food additives.
If I knew where mine was at the moment...I would even tell ya the page...
Fourevare in Period
!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~TO RESPOND USE THISADDRESS~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Xaviar_The...@yahoo.com
Alban
I love such uninformative but otherwise correct answers. . .
Take an orange, or lemon, or other fruit (I've seen everything from
grapes to watermelons used), and stick cloves all over it.
There are two uses for it, now. The first (especially citrus fruit)
is as an air freshener, pomander, sweet-scented item. The second
is a custom: you take said cloved fruit, and present it to another
person. The other person theoretically removes a clove (sometimes
with the mouth so as to freshen the breath, sometimes not), and kisses
the presenter. The placement and the duration of the kiss are customarily
left to the presentee. The presentee, after the kiss, takes possession of
the cloved fruit and continues the chain.
The kiss can be anything from a peck on the cheek to a kiss on the
hand all the way on up to a proposal of marriage <wink><wink>.
(And this has happened to my knowledge; I know of one couple
that kept passing the cloved fruit between each other (after it'd been
passed to one of them by another individual) for something like an
hour and a half. They're happily married now.)
If you take an onion, and stick cloves into it, it's apparently good
in things like chicken soup. . . and cloved hams also are quite
tasty.
Amazing things, those cloves.
Alban
Mike O'Toole
Alban wrote in message <19990217222150...@ng01.aol.com>...
>>you will find it disscussed in the known world hand book.
>
>I love such uninformative but otherwise correct answers. . .
>
>Take an orange, or lemon, or other fruit (I've seen everything from
>grapes to watermelons used), and stick cloves all over it.
My best responses were from cloved strawberries dipped in chocolate.
I do recall several people quivering.
Michael O'Byrne
Corun MacAnndra
>
>I'm new to the SCA: What the heck is cloven fruit?!?! Sounds like
>it could be fun, actually.....What's the history behind this custom?
A cloven fruit is any fruit that has been sliced open with a sharp
implement.
A cloved fruit on the other hand is any fruit that has had cloves stuck
into it. It's use as a device for flirtation with the opposite sex (Blue
Feather notwithstanding of course) in the SCA is often overdone or abused,
much like hand kissing.
In service,
Corun
JoAnn Abbott
Bakner <dba...@mail.cvn.net> wrote in article
<7afm8n$1m...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
> I'm new to the SCA: What the heck is cloven fruit?!?! Sounds like
> it could be fun, actually.....What's the history behind this custom?
>
>
> Cloven, or cloved fruit is a kissing game. An orange, or more commonly a
lemon at SCA events that I've seen is pierced and stuck full of cloves.
This is then offered to a member of the opposite sex. They can decline or
accept, and can choose the location the kiss is to be bestowed- the hand,
the cheek or the lips. Either the kisser or the kissee- depending on where
you are- bites one of the cloves out of the fruit prior to the kiss. Some
alleged gentles do tend to be a bit overenthusiastic with kisses upon the
lips however, winding up somewhere around the toncills....
The idea was that the clove, held in the mouth, would help sweeten the
notoriously foul breath of a people without toothpaste, brushes or
dentists. Some couples enjoy passing it between them as well....
I have also seen such fruit as a watermelon, an entire bunch of grapes
and a rather lewd banana cloved in the past.
Oh, and as for the "offered to the opposite sex" part- I DID see Sir
(A-hem) offer a cloved lemon to the King of the East when he came to visit
Drachenwald many years ago. His Lady Queen, ever gracious and quick of
wit, came foreward to his rescue. Stating that as his wife, the church
consdered the two of them to be of one flesh, she would be the part that
accepted the kiss. Rather a neat save on her part, I thought.
Lady JoAnna of the Singing Threads
Lord Xbrew
>
what a useless flame....so to return the favor.
no...wont bother to go there.....for a change..
Viking Rose
after-hours party at a local faire, they had a cloved fruit contest. It
included cloved apples, pears, grapes, oranges, a pineapple, and the
grand prize winner - a cloved beard. The prize was a bottle of wine
which was claimed not by the gentle who made the entry, but by the owner
of the beard! Think about it :-)
--
"Look ... I may be a rookie in your little Dirty Harry-world here,
but I'm telling you man when it comes to thesis speak ... I'm a pro!"
(Blair in "The Siege" on "The Sentinel")
VikingRose email: tpl...@luna.cas.usf.edu
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: you will find it disscussed in the known world hand book. Willy Shakes mentions
: it as such
: "He gave his lover a cloven lemon" which would have been an expensive use of
: these two uncommon food additives.
: If I knew where mine was at the moment...I would even tell ya the page...
I would be extremely startled to discover that Shakespeare (which is who I
assume you are referring to as "Willy Shakes" above) used the phrase
"cloven lemon" to mean "a lemon studded with cloves". The OED first notes
the use of "clove" as a verb meaning "to stud with cloves" in the 19th
century, and the participial form of this verb is given as "cloved" --
"cloven", prior to this specialized SCA usage, is the particple of
"cleave".
Given that there are still plenty of people around to attest to the modern
invention of the SCA's cloved-lemon kissing game, it's somewhat surprising
to see people offering vague, nebulous "I think it's in Shakespeare
somewhere" attempts to give it a false historic footing.
Tangwystyl
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
John Groseclose
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu () wrote:
<snip>
> I would be extremely startled to discover that Shakespeare (which is who I
> assume you are referring to as "Willy Shakes" above) used the phrase
> "cloven lemon" to mean "a lemon studded with cloves". The OED first notes
> the use of "clove" as a verb meaning "to stud with cloves" in the 19th
> century, and the participial form of this verb is given as "cloved" --
> "cloven", prior to this specialized SCA usage, is the particple of
> "cleave".
>
> Given that there are still plenty of people around to attest to the modern
> invention of the SCA's cloved-lemon kissing game, it's somewhat surprising
> to see people offering vague, nebulous "I think it's in Shakespeare
> somewhere" attempts to give it a false historic footing.
I keep waiting for someone to show up at a post-event revel with a cloven
pine... <sigh>
--
Send me junk mail, and get a nastygram for your provider.
John Groseclose (car...@neta.com)
http://www.neta.com/~caradoc
Raven
referred to as "cloved." The use of cloven is something fairly new (to me
that means about 10 years).
N.B. During the reign of King Adrian Buchanan of Caid, there was once a
cloved casaba melon (really big fruit).
Lura of Berthoswald
"I've got chemises older than you kids!"
Lord Xbrew
>somewhere" attempts to give it a false historic footing.
>
>
what a lame attempt at a flame....
> you will find it disscussed in the known world hand book. Willy Shakes
>mentions
you might notice that I say LOOK IN THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK (did you see it
this time) Did you bother to check either reference in either source NO I
think not...
Please think before you post. you do make youself look well I shall let you
ponder that adjetive for yourself.
Wait my good Lady did find my copy... to quote and futher the fool make thee.
Slight opps...I could have sworn I remember a reference to Willy... I shall
endover to look and post when that is found...however the article is on page 77
bottom and is by Lady Maeve of Caernavon 1982 (most likly a baroness/peer by
now) This article however only discusses the HOW of "cloven" fruit and not the
history. I shall find where it was I saw the other notation and post once
again.
thee...@home.com
of the "cloven fruit". They used a Manglewurtzel, studded with cloves of
garlic. (A manglewurtzel is, I believe, a form of rutabaga)
Now, onto the historical background. This might not be accurate, but when I
was researching the Crusades, I actually came accross a reference to cloved
lemons. The author put forth the idea that in that period citrus and cloves
(and glass) were very expensive items. If a knight was not married, but had
intentions toward a lady and was going on crusade, he would gift her with a
lemon decorated with those expensive items to declare his intent informally.
Whether this is accurate, I do not know. And unfortunately, I cannot off
hand recall the name of the book. As I have a Norman persona, I read a lot
of stuff about the Conquest up to mid 13th century.
Magdalen LaBrave
In article <01be5d10$c7e9c9c0$25163ea6@fiwvxrpx>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dean MacPherson
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu wrote:
> Lord Xbrew (lord...@aol.comnospam) wrote:
> : you will find it disscussed in the known world hand book. Willy Shakes mentions
> : it as such
> : "He gave his lover a cloven lemon" which would have been an expensive use of
> : these two uncommon food additives.
> : If I knew where mine was at the moment...I would even tell ya the page...
>
> I would be extremely startled to discover that Shakespeare (which is who I
> assume you are referring to as "Willy Shakes" above) used the phrase
> "cloven lemon" to mean "a lemon studded with cloves". The OED first notes
> the use of "clove" as a verb meaning "to stud with cloves" in the 19th
> century, and the participial form of this verb is given as "cloved" --
> "cloven", prior to this specialized SCA usage, is the particple of
> "cleave".
>
> Given that there are still plenty of people around to attest to the modern
> invention of the SCA's cloved-lemon kissing game, it's somewhat surprising
> to see people offering vague, nebulous "I think it's in Shakespeare
> somewhere" attempts to give it a false historic footing.
>
>
From Love's Labours Lost, Act V, Scene II, Line 650-656 DON
ADRIANO DE ARMADO The armipotent Mars, of lances the almighty,
Gave Hector a gift,--
DUMAIN A gilt nutmeg.
BIRON A lemon.
LONGAVILLE Stuck with cloves.
DUMAIN No, cloven.
It doesn't refer to kissing, but it's definitely in Shakespeare.
Yours in Service,
Roderigo Gattamorta d'Amalfi,
who loves his Shakespeare Lexicon and Quotation Dictionary.
--
"Two strong impulses: One, to drink long and deep, and the other, not to
sober up too soon."
-Jelaluddin Rumi
Lord Xbrew
that I would claim credit for remembering it in Shakesphere's works, for though
I am literate of them I alas have no memory for the text of said works.
I am sure that tis a passage I spotted in some Scadian publication. But
again I thank you and Cheer your Intelect and memory.
Corun MacAnndra
>
>From Love's Labours Lost, Act V, Scene II, Line 650-656 DON
> ADRIANO DE ARMADO The armipotent Mars, of lances the almighty,
> Gave Hector a gift,--
>
>DUMAIN A gilt nutmeg.
>
>BIRON A lemon.
>
>LONGAVILLE Stuck with cloves.
>
>DUMAIN No, cloven.
And once again we see that the word 'cloven' does not mean to stick with
cloves, but to cleave, as in cut the object in twain. When stuck with
cloves, the object is said to be 'cloved'.
Thank you Roderigo. A most excellent example.
In service,
Corun
Corun MacAnndra
>Tangwystal wrote:
>
>>"I think it's in Shakespeare
>>somewhere" attempts to give it a false historic footing.
>>
>
Actually she did not attempt, lamely or otherwise to flame you. She simply
pointed out, and rightly so, that to cite a half-remembered quotation from
Shakespeare in order to give historic validitiy to anything is simply poor
research.
You, however, go on to insult the lady with;
>> you will find it disscussed in the known world hand book. Willy Shakes
>>mentions
>
>you might notice that I say LOOK IN THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK (did you see it
>this time) Did you bother to check either reference in either source NO I
>think not...
>
>Please think before you post. you do make youself look well I shall let you
>ponder that adjetive for yourself.
And just what adjective were you about to use to describe the lady? Can you
not debate in civility? Or must you always take an insulting and defensive
posture any time anyone calls you on your alleged research? You sirrah are,
in my opinion, no gentleman. I will suggest that it is you who should think
before he posts. Read carefully both the post to which you are responding,
and your own previous works which you have misquoted above. For indeed you
claim, "you might notice that I say LOOK IN THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK" when
in fact what you said was, "you will find it disscussed in the known world
hand book." Next time you accuse someone of misreading your words, be sure
you have not misread them yourself.
>Wait my good Lady did find my copy... to quote and futher the fool make thee.
>
>Slight opps...I could have sworn I remember a reference to Willy... I shall
>endover to look and post when that is found...however the article is on page
>77 bottom and is by Lady Maeve of Caernavon 1982 (most likly a baroness/peer
>by now) This article however only discusses the HOW of "cloven" fruit and
>not the history. I shall find where it was I saw the other notation and post
>once again.
And so now you find that in fact Lady Tangwystl was correct, that William
Shakespeare did not make such a reference as you have claimed. Lord Roderigo
further illuminates us with the correct quote which proves that the Bard was
talking about a cloven lemon, not a cloved one, and that there was no such
reference to kissing implied by that quote.
I recommend that you study further before making unfounded statements and
laying down faulty rememberences as fact. I further recommend that you seek
some education in a more civil and genteel form of communication.
In service,
Corun
Lord Xbrew
answered privatly as it should have been with his response and the lady whom he
dost try to defend
Lord Xbrew
one...just like the lady. you do not bother to read into what I implied you
just attack.
I did not say that WS mentioned anthying about kissing!! it was just his
quote that brought about the Scadian custom.
As for the adj..;. you obviously filled in the blank with something very nasty
to say so. I on the other hand didnt even bother to give it a thought as to
what I would have put. for I did not care..
AS for the flame....any time any poster leaves the topic and directs any
comment at a poster rather than the content of the post with a postive or
negative VALID point it is considered a flame if not a spark.
Lord Xbrew
.> I further recommend that you seek
>some education in a more civil and genteel form of communication.
Your nothing but a pompas ass with a holier than thou attitude. I made a quick
post to someone who was asking about a purely SCAdian practice...commenting
that I thought that the whole thing came from a quote from WS. (WHICH IT
DID...or did you not read the scolarly post by the other lord) And then
followed it by saying that an explantion of it is in the KWHandbook. (Which it
is, did youever bother to buy or read one?)
The lady in question or is that questionalble did attack me for poor
reasearch...Research was not neccessary it had been done years ago and is
printed in the Scadian Bible so to speak
>
>I recommend that you study further before making unfounded statements and
>laying down faulty rememberences
this statment has no basis in factual evidence or relavance. Tis thee that
should go over thy studies...fo you speak (ot type) before you doth examine the
facts of a very simple posting...
Touche... now go away
Corun MacAnndra
>>From: co...@clark.net (Corun MacAnndra)
>
>answered privatly as it should have been with his response and the lady whom
>he dost try to defend
But then you post both of your "private" responses to this newsgroup. Are
you thus as ignorant of how your newsreader works as you are of civility?
In service,
Corun
ThranSloth
1999 5:42 AM came the following:
"I made a quick post to someone who was asking about a purely SCAdian
practice...commenting that I thought that the whole thing came from a quote
from WS. (WHICH IT
DID...or did you not read the scolarly post by the other lord) And then
followed it by saying that an explantion of it is in the KWHandbook. (Which it
is, did youever bother to buy or read one?)"
Perhaps it is not so wise of me to de-lurk to comment on this, BUT...
Having read the aforementioned posts, I fail to see how the particular quote
establishes that "the whole thing came from a quote from WS." Admittedly the
quote was rather short. But since it mentions a lemon being given as a gift,
another asking if the lemon was stuck with cloves, and it being clarified as
not being, but rather cloven (personally, I find this an odd form of gift, but
hey). All this says to me is that:
1. Lemons stuck with cloves were sometimes given as gifts. (Otherwise there
would be no reason to suspect that a lemon, given as a gift, was stuck with
cloves).
2. Lemons that were cloven were sometimes given as gifts.
3. A Lemon that is cloven is NOT stuck with cloves.
Although it has been a long time since I've perused the Known World Handbook, I
do seem to recall an article that mentions the cloved fruit, and the game that
is played with it. Including, I am almost certain, the notice that it can be
rejected.
So I certainly don't see how anyone can presume that the game came from
Shakespeare. Someone else (can't check back right now, AOL's newsreader is
primitive at best, but probably not period) posted a story how a lady had
started such a game at an event (feast?). Perhaps that is how it all became,
perhaps various people did this at various events. Maybe even they were
inspired by the idea of freshening their breath with cloves. But whether or not
such a game was played in period has certainly never been established to my
knowledge. If I recall correctly the original poster just asked for any
information regarding the custom, thus any information given is relevent.
I have to say I would be interested in learning where, when and how the custom
originated. But I highly doubt that the origin of such could be proved
conclusively.
-Gillean ab Lywellen
Thran Sloth
Lord Xbrew
>you thus as ignorant of how your newsreader works as you are of civility?
well if that be the case, then I made an error that I was not aware of until
this moment. of this I apoligize...but as for your statement you are then
guilty of it yourself.
As I did answer the lady (at this moment I have not looked at the rest of the
messages posted, so I dont know of which I posted and which I sent privatly. I
was having aol problems (ie...kept getting bumped etc) Reguardless. The lady
in question as did you corun, posted responses that did nothing to aid the
orginal posted query but instead sought to belittle me and still do for an
answer I posted that was correct if only partially informative. IE. Giving a
direction (correct one) for the person asking the question to follow to find
his own answer to his question.
Now if you are not yet satisfied. try a challange duel if you wish, very
period. Though would be rather unfullfilling for you as you would lose sadly,
not that this would prove anything. But perhaps it would end your worthless
rambling here.
I posted this purposely...
Lord Xbrew
>custom
>originated. But I highly doubt that the origin of such could be proved
>conclusively.
>
>-Gillean ab Lywell
Good points. It reminds me of a previous search for the origin of Honey
Butter, which, though served at numerous events. Has no basis in Period. Tis
solely a scadian customry dish whose origins are not truely known
I wonder how many more there are...lol
Lord Xbrew
>Date: 2/23/1999 12:42 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990223004234...@ng-fc1.aol.com>
>
>XXXX me
I do appolgies for this post it was to be a private email. My mistate.
Alban
>Honey Butter, which, though served at numerous events.
>Has no basis in Period. Tis solely a scadian customry dish
>whose origins are not truely known
there used to be a chain of restaurants, mostly close to Interstates,
named Nickerson Farms; they served honey butter with their
bread. The rumor has it that a soon-to-be head cook went in,
ate of the honeyed butter, like it, and decided to serve some
at the upcoming event. And, lo and behold, A Custom Sprang
Up.
I prefer feasts today; they have so much better research behind
them than was the custom so long ago.
Alban
Corun MacAnndra
>
>Now if you are not yet satisfied. try a challange duel if you wish, very
>period. Though would be rather unfullfilling for you as you would lose sadly,
>not that this would prove anything. But perhaps it would end your worthless
>rambling here.
Oh most excellent. You begin with vague recollections, follow up with
uncivil and unwarranted insults and finish with threats of violence.
Quite the way to lure one over to your side. Yes, you'll gain points
indeed for such a debating style.
"Well hit, well hit, by one that has but little wit." -- The Ploughman
to the Knight, from Of Gentleness and Nobility, by John Haywood.
>Fourevare in Period
And what is an evare, and why would four of them be period?
In service,
Corun
Marshall and Anitra Townsend
I remember a tale of a wondering Knight in the Middle Kingdom and a certain
cloved orange encounter. It seems he was attending a local event that was
being held in a Moose Lodge. During the course of the evening he was presented
a cloved orange by a young lady. The Knight, looked about the great hall and
saw that all eyes were upon him - to include his squire and men-at-arms - who
no doubt had sent the young lady his way. So, the Knight scanned the hall to
determine which of the ladies he should pass the fruit on to. But, the choice
was too great and all of the ladies, being from the Middle Kingdom, too
beautiful to choose from. As he turned to look back at his squire he noted
that his men-at-arms were have too much fun with the situation. So, not to be
out done by his this group of portable pells, he placed his sights on the
Moose head at the end of the hall. He marched across, mounted a chair, pulled
a clove with his teeth, kissed the moose and placed the orange on an antler.
Then returned to his place at the other end of the hall. The room was quite
silent, the music had stopped and the men-at-arms looked quite down-trodden.
Then all of a sudden there was a great rush of ladies after the orange. The
poor Moose - he never knew what hit him.....
Frederick Pagniello
<snip>
: poor Moose - he never knew what hit him.....
Did anyone think of singing the _Moose_ song? Nothing like music and
love, a serenade to soothe love roiling through the heart....
Lucky moose! Some guys get all the luck. Arrgh! Vale.
Gnaeus Valerius Sidero.
ForlornH
>
>Did anyone think of singing the _Moose_ song? Nothing like music and
>love, a serenade to soothe love roiling through the heart....
>
>Lucky moose! Some guys get all the luck. Arrgh! Vale.
A moose, a moose, I like a moose...
I've never had anything quite like a moose...
Reminds me of that great literary classic..."Of Moose and Men"
Sorry...getting too silly now..
.
Rich Goranson (Lord Stephan Calvert deGrey)
Buffalo, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, Æthelmearc)
Diplomacy addict, F&E guru, Expos fan and medieval re-creationist
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - Henry
II
Deloris Booker
And also that great musical break-through "Prima Dona on a Moose".
Aldreada of the Lakes
Lord Xbrew
, follow up with>uncivil and unwarranted insults
Really now...I dont see any insults...in that last post.
and finish with threats of violence.
>Quite the way to lure one over to your side. Yes, you'll gain points
>indeed for such a debating style.
>
Lord Xbrew
>with threats of violence.
I had written.
>try a challange duel if you wish, very
>>period.
I dont see this as a threat of violence! Fighting is a martial art. and in
our period was used to settle differences of opinions and the truth in certian
matters. I never threatened bodily harm. I offered it for you to make the
challange. If you cant understand this simple aspect, then you are unworthy of
further response. So just go away.
I am sorry for the length of time between posts..I was just participating in a
Human combat chess game at a local Medieval Faire.