NOW what's wrong?
erilar
--
Erilar, biblioholic
bib-li-o-hol-ism [<Gr biblion] n. [BIBLIO + HOLISM] books, of books:
habitual longing to purchase, read, store, admire, and consume books in excess.
Christophe Bachmann
> There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
>
We're asking one another why that's happening on Usenet-FR and have
found quite a lot of partial answers, but none that explains everything.
There are still quite a few lurkers around here I'll bet, but when the
critical mass is lost a forum unwinds quite quickly.
--
Greetings, Salutations,
Guiraud Belissen, Chï¿œteau du Ciel, Drachenwald,
Chris CII, Rennes, France
erilar
Christophe Bachmann <Chri...@JMVD.Info> wrote:
> erilar a �crit :
> > There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
> >
> That's the death of Usenet for you...
> We're asking one another why that's happening on Usenet-FR and have
> found quite a lot of partial answers, but none that explains everything.
>
> There are still quite a few lurkers around here I'll bet, but when the
> critical mass is lost a forum unwinds quite quickly.
Maybe their ISP's are cutting them off as mine did to me. But I enjoy
this format and refuse to join something like Facebook(yuck!), so I
found another connection. On the other hand, I subscribe to a number of
mostly local SCA lists. I really miss the inter-kingdom discussions I
used to find here, though.
Christophe Bachmann
> In article <4aabe0f7$0$23463$ba4a...@news.orange.fr>,
> Christophe Bachmann <Chri...@JMVD.Info> wrote:
>
>>> There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
>>>
>> That's the death of Usenet for you...
>> We're asking one another why that's happening on Usenet-FR and have
>> found quite a lot of partial answers, but none that explains everything.
>>
>> There are still quite a few lurkers around here I'll bet, but when the
>> critical mass is lost a forum unwinds quite quickly.
>
> Maybe their ISP's are cutting them off as mine did to me. But I enjoy
> this format and refuse to join something like Facebook(yuck!), so I
> found another connection. On the other hand, I subscribe to a number of
> mostly local SCA lists. I really miss the inter-kingdom discussions I
> used to find here, though.
>
dieing at the same rhythm than usenet.
I think the reason is mostly that Google is giving people pointers to
web forums and thus when people have a question they don't go to usenet
anymore, worse many young users don't even know what usenet is because
in one clic you can have access to web-forums and to get to usenet you
have to install and configure a reader...
Steve Urbach
wrote:
>erilar a �crit :
>> In article <4aabe0f7$0$23463$ba4a...@news.orange.fr>,
>> Christophe Bachmann <Chri...@JMVD.Info> wrote:
>>
>>> erilar a �crit :
>>>> There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
>>>>
>>> That's the death of Usenet for you...
>>> We're asking one another why that's happening on Usenet-FR and have
>>> found quite a lot of partial answers, but none that explains everything.
>>>
>>> There are still quite a few lurkers around here I'll bet, but when the
>>> critical mass is lost a forum unwinds quite quickly.
>>
>> Maybe their ISP's are cutting them off as mine did to me. But I enjoy
>> this format and refuse to join something like Facebook(yuck!), so I
>> found another connection. On the other hand, I subscribe to a number of
>> mostly local SCA lists. I really miss the inter-kingdom discussions I
>> used to find here, though.
>>
>Here in Europe, ISP haven't yet killed Usenet access, but usenet-fr is
>dieing at the same rhythm than usenet.
>
>I think the reason is mostly that Google is giving people pointers to
>web forums and thus when people have a question they don't go to usenet
>anymore, worse many young users don't even know what usenet is because
>in one clic you can have access to web-forums and to get to usenet you
>have to install and configure a reader...
If I had to use Google's /lame/ interface, I would leave Usenet.
I use Agent, a /off-line/ ,threaded Newsreader that navigates to unread
messages, while leaving read (or skipped) messages in the list .
IMHO Web page based readers with lots of eye candy (Avatars, pictures...) have
draw the masses away from USENET.
NB I read my first "SCA Rialto" messages in the 80's
David Friedman
People interested in period cooking should know that a translation of
al-Warraq's 10th century cookbook was published a year or two back under
the title of _Annals of the Caliphs Kitchens_; the translator is Nawah
Nasrallah. It's a big cookbook, including bread recipes, pickled meat
and vegetable recipes--I've just been nibbling soused egglant on toat,
after trying to figure out what to do with the very sour product of that
particular recipe--and a wide range of other stuff.
There's also a lot of information in the back, although it's not very
well organized or indexed and there may be some translation problems. My
impression is that the translator is too willing to assume that a
familiarity with modern Arabic cooking substitutes for linguistic and
historical expertise; in one notable case she translates two different
Arabic terms as "haricot or kidney beans," apparently unaware that
haricots, including kidney beans, come from the New World.
But despite that minor complaint, it's a very interesting book, and the
main thing I've been working out recipes from of late. Among others,
there's a small flat bread which, by experiment, is good for at least
two months--gets a bit harder over time, but still fully edible. And I
did a very successful mishmishiya--apricot chicken--recently at my
second try. The book is expensive, so if you want to use it you may want
to try interlibrary loan.
Anyone reading this who is in the California bay area might be
interested in the fact that we are doing one of our cooking workshops
next saturday--at least some of the recipes will be from al-Warraq. If
you want to come, email me for more information.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
erilar
Steve Urbach <drago...@NOTmindspring.com> wrote:
> If I had to use Google's /lame/ interface, I would leave Usenet.
You're certainly not along there. I used it once to ask for
suggestions when my ISP cut my usenet access and that was plenty.
I've been using NewsWatcher for well over a decade and wanted a place
I could keep using it.
> I use Agent, a /off-line/ ,threaded Newsreader that navigates to unread
> messages, while leaving read (or skipped) messages in the list .
> IMHO Web page based readers with lots of eye candy (Avatars, pictures...) have
> draw the masses away from USENET.
If I want eye candy I can get it with my browser. I enjoy usenet for
"conversation" 8-)
>
> NB I read my first "SCA Rialto" messages in the 80's
I didn't start visiting the Rialto until the 90's, however, because I
didn't get on the internet until then 8-)
erilar
<ddfr-1F5F8C.1...@newsfarm.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> Anyone reading this who is in the California bay area might be
> interested in the fact that we are doing one of our cooking workshops
> next saturday--at least some of the recipes will be from al-Warraq.
If only I had a matter transmitter. . . 8-)
Phil
<dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
I belong to two or three yahoo groups pertaining to the SCA. I think
eveyone is heading to these where there's less spam and more focussed
discussions.
Oliver de Bainbridge
erilar
Phil <dogg...@yahoooo.com> wrote:
Oh, I belong to more than that and only one uses Yahoo, but they're
mostly fairly local. I miss the inter-kingdom threads.
Matthew G. Saroff
Agreed: I did a sort of mutant redaction of Maghmuma with
Asparagus (From Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens, Page 313), where
I replaced bread being placed on the top with biscuit dough for
Brighthills Trial by Fire event.
Works nicely in a Dutch oven when you put coals on top to cook
the dough.
Recipe follows:
Notes
1. The meat is not specified, so I chose lamb as a matter of
personal preference.
2. In any case where a fat or oil is used, I have replaced
it with rendered lamb fat to improve the "lambiness" of the final
dish.
3. I did not use the liver and gizzards of chickens as
called for in the recipe, as I do not like them.
4. The recipe calls for putting a piece of fried bread on
the top of the mixture, and then inverting it on the plate.
Because I have a flat-topped Dutch oven, which allows coals to be
stacked on top, I instead chose to bake the bread in this manner
in order to reduce the number of dishes (and because said Dutch
oven is my new toy, and I want to try it out).
5. Murri is a fermented barley and/or fish sauce which is
generally described as similar to soy sauce , and there are
concerns that it might be carcinogenic , so I will be
substituting soy sauce.
6. Cheese is in the original, but is not used here in order
to comply with Jewish dietary laws (Kashrus).
7. As an aside, when the cheese is included, it sounds an
awful lot like a sort of Arab medieval pizza.
Ingredients:
4 lbs lamb, cut to about �" cubes.
2 lbs asparagus
2 large white onions, chopped
1cup ground walnut
1 large leek, chopped
4 eggs, large
1 can chickpeas (garbanzos) 1 lb (actually 15� oz) drained.
1 can black olives (5.75 oz) chopped and drained.
� tbsp soy sauce
3 tsp coriander seeds, cracked.
1 tbsp fresh cilantro
� tsp black pepper
� cup + 1 tbsp olive oil (will be using lamb fat)
Dough (see below)
� tsp salt and to taste
Take asparagus, and blanch, and then cut into small disks,
roughly �" thick, or chop.
Take Dutch oven, and place on burning coals to heat, melt
approximately 1 tbsp. of olive oil (lamb fat), then take the lamb
and brown in Dutch oven.
Add chickpeas, leeks, onions, cilantro, and � tsp of salt, and
add about 2 inches of water, and cook until meat is done (5-10
minutes).
Add asparagus, olives, ground walnuts, and 2 tsp of the coriander
seeds.
Take eggs, and beat them, and add remaining coriander seeds,
black pepper, and soy sauce to them, and then add to the pot and
stir.
Cook until almost all the free liquid has left the pot.
Taste, and add salt as desired.
Remove most of the coals, and prepare dough (below), and then
place on top of the meat/egg mixture. Brush top with oil, then
place hot coals on top of the lid and cook until dough is done,
about 30 minutes.
Invert pot onto platter, and serve
--
--Matthew Saroff
Rules to live by:
1) To thine own self be true
2) Don't let your mouth write no checks that your butt can't cash
3) Interference in the time stream is forbidden, do not meddle in causality
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page
David Friedman
Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 5. Murri is a fermented barley and/or fish sauce which is
> generally described as similar to soy sauce , and there are
> concerns that it might be carcinogenic , so I will be
> substituting soy sauce.
You have to substitute something, unless you have a source for
murri--and, with the exception of Charles Perry's experiments, I don't
think anyone has made any in recent centuries. I know of no more reason,
however, to expect it to be carcinogenic than to expect soy sauce to
be--it's also largely fermented grains.
I know of no references suggesting a fish sauce--are you thinking of the
Roman garum? Perry suggests soy sauce as the closest modern equivalent,
but what we generally use is a period recipe for fake murri--"Byzantine
murri." You can find it in the _Miscellany_.
Dorothy J Heydt
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>In article <6bumc5hv55ca1t2mv...@4ax.com>,
> Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 5. Murri is a fermented barley and/or fish sauce which is
>> generally described as similar to soy sauce , and there are
>> concerns that it might be carcinogenic , so I will be
>> substituting soy sauce.
>
>You have to substitute something, unless you have a source for
>murri--and, with the exception of Charles Perry's experiments, I don't
>think anyone has made any in recent centuries. I know of no more reason,
>however, to expect it to be carcinogenic than to expect soy sauce to
>be--it's also largely fermented grains.
>
>I know of no references suggesting a fish sauce--are you thinking of the
>Roman garum? Perry suggests soy sauce as the closest modern equivalent,
>but what we generally use is a period recipe for fake murri--"Byzantine
>murri." You can find it in the _Miscellany_.
Isn't there a Vietnamese fermented fish sauce that bears some
resemblance to garum? Have you ever tried it in a Roman
recipe that calls for garum?
(If it were I trying to redact the recipe, I'd just use
anchovy paste and let the fermented aspect go. But I do as
little cooking as possible these days.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
David Friedman
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <ddfr-CA91F7.1...@newsfarm.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> >In article <6bumc5hv55ca1t2mv...@4ax.com>,
> > Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 5. Murri is a fermented barley and/or fish sauce which is
> >> generally described as similar to soy sauce , and there are
> >> concerns that it might be carcinogenic , so I will be
> >> substituting soy sauce.
> >
> >You have to substitute something, unless you have a source for
> >murri--and, with the exception of Charles Perry's experiments, I don't
> >think anyone has made any in recent centuries. I know of no more reason,
> >however, to expect it to be carcinogenic than to expect soy sauce to
> >be--it's also largely fermented grains.
> >
> >I know of no references suggesting a fish sauce--are you thinking of the
> >Roman garum? Perry suggests soy sauce as the closest modern equivalent,
> >but what we generally use is a period recipe for fake murri--"Byzantine
> >murri." You can find it in the _Miscellany_.
>
> Isn't there a Vietnamese fermented fish sauce that bears some
> resemblance to garum? Have you ever tried it in a Roman
> recipe that calls for garum?
I've heard that, but I haven't tried it; I don't do Roman cooking.
The post I was responding to was referring to murri, which is middle
eastern, not Roman.
...
Nawal Nasrallah
wrote:
> Author of
> _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
> Cambridge University Press.
...........................................
Professor Friedman,
First I would like to thank you for mentioning my Annals of the
Caliphs' Kitchens bookt to the dedicated sca group. I really
appreciate it. But I also feel I need to elaborate on your comments.
About organization of the book, I do not think it is fair to describe
it as disorganized. Given this huge huge amount of entries that I
needed to describe, I could not but divide the entries according to
categories. THe only thing the publisher should have done perhaps, was
type the category at the top of the page so that the reader does not
have to go back and forth. The same thing with the index. Have I not
divided it, it would have been a hodgepodge of extremely long series
of words.
I don't know , how differently should it have been done? Any
suggestions are welcome
Another thing about the beans, and I appreciate your mention it is a
minor point. It is not certain that green beans are strictly New World
vegetables. I came across Arab sources that describe the green beans
as we know them, i.e. haricot and kidney beans. These sources belong
to an early medieval period, so my comment on the beans was not based
on my knowledge of modern Arabic. Please see below an excerpt from an
article in Saudi Aramco World about the beans, which tells that I am
not alone in this assumption.
New World Foods, Old World Diet
Written by Paul Lunde
Volume 43, Number 3May/June 1992
"The ancient world - apart from the Americas - was poor in beans; it
knew the chickpea, the broad bean or fava and the lentil. The Chinese
had the soybean, cultivated since time immemorial, and a few rather
marginal beans were eaten in Japan and Southeast Asia . The discovery
of the New World showed the Old World the possibilities of the bean,
for Amerindian cultures had developed beans of every imaginable shape
and color. In the 16th century these came to be known collectively as
haricot beans, the word " haricot " deriving either from the Aztec
ayacotl or from an old French word meaning a kind of stew. New World
beans were accepted readily and, in many regions of the Old World,
became staple fare, supplying much-needed protein to peoples who had
traditionally endured very low-protein diets. This all seems
straightforward, but it has recently been pointed out that the scholar
Ibn al-'Awwam, writing in 12th-century al-Andalus, describes some 17
varieties of bean. From his descriptions, some of these sound
suspiciously like haricot beans. The French scholar who first remarked
on this even suggested that the prevalence of haricot beans may have
contributed to the flowering of the Andalusian economy in the later
Middle Ages: Improved diet, broadly speaking, brings improved
productivity. More research needs to be done on the history of the
haricot bean, but as we shall see, it is not the only New World plant
whose origins have been questioned."
Thanks
Nawal Nasrallah
www.iraqicookbook.com
David Friedman
<a0373da6-090c-477e...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Nawal Nasrallah <nnasr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
And I should thank you for translating it. I had been trying to persuade
various people for some years to do it--I don't read any Arabic myself,
unfortunately--and was delighted to find that someone else had done it
independently.
> I really
> appreciate it. But I also feel I need to elaborate on your comments.
> About organization of the book, I do not think it is fair to describe
> it as disorganized. Given this huge huge amount of entries that I
> needed to describe, I could not but divide the entries according to
> categories. THe only thing the publisher should have done perhaps, was
> type the category at the top of the page so that the reader does not
> have to go back and forth. The same thing with the index. Have I not
> divided it, it would have been a hodgepodge of extremely long series
> of words.
>
> I don't know , how differently should it have been done? Any
> suggestions are welcome
A single ordinary index, or perhaps one for English words and one for
Arabic words, would be enormously useful. As it is, to find a reference
I have to first figure out which category it is in, then figure out
where in the back that particular category starts, then look up the
reference.
> Another thing about the beans, and I appreciate your mention it is a
> minor point. It is not certain that green beans are strictly New World
> vegetables. I came across Arab sources that describe the green beans
> as we know them, i.e. haricot and kidney beans.
Kidney beans are not green beans, and are definitely established to be
from the New World.
Or in other words, the accepted view is that they are from the New
World--a fact you did not mention in the book and (I assumed, perhaps
mistakenly) were not aware of. One recent scholar has been arguing that
that view may be mistaken. Note that he isn't claiming that kidney beans
were described--just that some of the descriptions sound like some
haricot beans.
If you take a look at _The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_, which
is a European book from before Columbus, you see vegetables that look a
lot like some of the squash we are familiar with. The reason is not that
C. Pepo (yellow flowered gourd) existed in the Old World but that a
different gourd, the white flowered gourd, did--and still does. You
can't tell by physical appearance of the vegetable, since both species
exist in lots of different varieties with different shapes. Similarly,
the fact that a verbal description of a bean in a 12th century source
could be a description of a bean we know is from the New World doesn't
mean that it is. As you probably know better than I do, a single
species, such as the fava bean, comes in different varieties with
different appearances, and there is no reason why some of them shouldn't
look like unrelated New World species.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Tim McDaniel
<a0373da6-090c-477e...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Nawal Nasrallah <nnasr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>about the beans
For those who might be wondering why someone would cite what appears
to be an oil-industry publicity magazine as a source on culinary
history ...
As best I remember David Appleton's explanation of why he likes the
magazine: it being in the Middle East and not wanting to anger anyone
(which could manifest in anything from censorship to murders), they
can't possibly cover anything that touches on religion or politics in
the Middle East. But they have a good budget and want to put out
something reputable for prestige purposes. So boy howdy are they ever
good on culture and history. (I was similarly surprised to find that
the Christian Science Monitor is a good newspaper/magazine.)
The TOC for the most recent issue, from
<http://saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200905/>:
- a recent cultural flowering in Istanbul: museums, theaters, etc.
I'm a bit surprised to see comments touching on recent Turkish
governance, the phrase "the 1915 Armenian genocide", and (about an
interview festival) "Check out a Kurd, an Armenian, a Jew. How about
a homosexual?". [1] Maybe it's because they're not Arabs?
- The oryx
- Penrose geometric tiling patterns in Islamic architecture from over
500 years ago
- The Saracens of St. Tropez
You can get a free subscription by writing them.
[1] Thank you. Don't mind if I do. Two, please. Wrap them to go.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Nikolai Petrovich
-0500 typed in rec.org.sca the following:
>In article <4aabe0f7$0$23463$ba4a...@news.orange.fr>,
> Christophe Bachmann <Chri...@JMVD.Info> wrote:
>
>> > There has been NOTHING but spam here of late!
>> >
>> That's the death of Usenet for you...
>> We're asking one another why that's happening on Usenet-FR and have
>> found quite a lot of partial answers, but none that explains everything.
>>
>> There are still quite a few lurkers around here I'll bet, but when the
>> critical mass is lost a forum unwinds quite quickly.
>
>Maybe their ISP's are cutting them off as mine did to me. But I enjoy
>this format and refuse to join something like Facebook(yuck!), so I
>found another connection. On the other hand, I subscribe to a number of
>mostly local SCA lists. I really miss the inter-kingdom discussions I
>used to find here, though.
In a nutshell, there you have it. The use of newsgroups is
declining, as "everybody" goes to the various SCA forums/lists/web
sites. Few people can contribute to both, so ...traffic falls off.
After a while, "nobody posts there, because there's nobody reading
there."
tschus
Nikolai
--
Nikolai Petrovich Flandropoff
Whimiscal Order of the Ailing Wit
Scribe & Zampollet to Clan MacFlandry
Loose Canon, An Tir Heavy Opera Company
Semi-offical TASS correspondent (That makes me - the Demi-Tass)