First European woman in America ?
Joe Hayes
the Americas? Any help appreciated.
Thanks,
Ulrich
I. Marc Carlson
>My lady and I were wondering who was the first European woman to
>reach the Americas? Any help appreciated.
It depends on who you want to believe. And what documentation you
are willing to accept. The easy answer is, of course, Gudrid
Thorbjarnardottir, wife of Thorfinn Karlsefni (one of the few
places that the Greenlander's Saga and Erik the Red's Saga actually
agree) arriving in about 1007. Snorri Thorfinnsson, the first
European child born in the Americas, was born to her in 1008.
The harder answer is that it was some Spanish woman who will take
a lot of research for me to find -- maybe someone else can come
up with her.
The cop-out, of course, is that we will never really know, since it
was probably some nameless woman in some forgotten shipwreck there's
no record of anywhere anyway.
Marc/Diarmaid
Arval d'Espas Nord
> My lady and I were wondering who was the first European woman to reach
> the Americas?
Interesting question. I heard recently on ATC that the first child born to
a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
EAM
mit...@panix.com writes:
>I heard recently on ATC that the first child born to
>a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
Poetry isn't documentation, but there's always '<Somebody> and Virginia
Dare', the one they _tried_ to teach me in school. <Somebody> was the
first (girl) baby born in Massachusetts, and Virginia Dare the first in
(surprize!) Virginia. "One was cradled in Pilgrim oak, the other died
(?) on Roanoke", not Jamestown.
BTW what were the dates on Martin's Hundred? Before or after Jamestown?
-- Elizabeth
ErichAwful
C, I think?) fishing villages in Newfoundland
Erich
Ld Erich von Kleinfeld, CGD
Knight Marshall, Barony of Stierbach (Atlantia)
Zweihander don't kill people, doppelsoldner do.
I. Marc Carlson
>> the Americas?
>a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
The first English child born in the Americas was Virginia Dare, born in the
Roanoak Colony on 18 August 1587 to Ananias Dare and his wife Eleanor (Daughter
of Governor White). She was the second baptism performed in that Colony.
She vanished with the rest of the colonists sometime between September 1587
and September 1590.
Marc/Diarmaid
I. Marc Carlson
>...Poetry isn't documentation, but there's always '<Somebody> and Virginia
>Dare'...
Oh, crap who was that...? I don't remember.
I know that Mary Allerton delivered a stillborn child while the
Mayflower lay at anchor at Plymouth, but that was 1620.
>BTW what were the dates on Martin's Hundred? Before or after Jamestown?
Technically, I think that Martin's Hundred was considered part of the
overall Jamestown colony, but was established after the actual founding
of the first settlement. It, of course, pretty much ceased to exist
after the "Virginia Massacre" *also* in 1620.
Marc/Diarmaid
joe dupere
It was settled by the English in 1586 or thereabouts. Fears related
to the anticipated Spanish invasion of England in 1588 prevented
the principals involved from sending any relief expeditions until
after the Spanish Armada was destroyed> By the time any help had
arrived the colonists were no longer on Roanoke, thus becoming
known as "The Lost Colony". Roanoke was part of the Royal charter
province of Virginia. That's how Virginia Dare got her given name.
She was the first recorded _English_ child born in the New World.
Dunno who was the first Spanish or Portugese child born in the
new world, someone else may know that.
Jehan FitzAlan, East Kingdom, Shire of Endewearde, (another
transplanted North Carolinian living the great frozen northlands)
EAM
LIB...@centum.utulsa.edu writes:
><EAM <SP...@nospam.com>>
>>...Poetry isn't documentation, but there's always '<Somebody> and Virginia
>>Dare'...
>
>Oh, crap who was that...? I don't remember.
>
Still don't remember the author, but it's 'Peregrine White and Virginia
Dare' (YKYISCA moment: sitting there doing my very high-tech engineering
job when something like that pops out of the subconscious. It's always
happening... ) I could have sworn both kids were girls, but I think of
Peregrine as a boy's name. Virginia was still at Roanoke, though, which
predates Jamestown.
The initial 1607 Jamestown settlement, IFRC, was all male, and intended
to be a strictly 'industrial' operation. Among other things, they set up
a glassworks (NPS has a 'reproduction' in the park; I got great feast
drinking gear there, but they use gas rather than charcoal). Supposedly
nobody had realized that glassblowing is a really skilled occupation, and
no one actually could do it very well.
All of the early Virginia settlements (including Roanoke, as far as that
goes) were 'plantations', in the sense that they were sponsored by
business sindicates in England, and expected to make money for the
sponsors (as were the early English settlements in Northern Ireland...).
After industry didn't work out, they tried agriculture, and sent mixed
groups of farmers, families, and soldiers.
-- Elizabeth
obsi...@raex.com
wrote:
>My lady and I were wondering who was the first European woman to reach
>the Americas? Any help appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Ulrich
Greetings...
Depends on what you mean by "the Americas". The easy answer is
the five women who accompanied the 60-man Third Vinland Expedition led
by Thorfinn Karlsefni, to what is now northern Newfoundland. The only
one of these who is named is his wife, Gudrid Thorbjornsdottir. A
somewhat more oblique answer obtains if you consider Greenland to be a
part of the North American continent: in this case, it is the unknown
number of women who accompanied Eirik the Red on his colonising
expedition. The only one of these who is named is his daughter,
Freydis Eiriksdottir, who later gained a savage reputation in
Newfoundland, during the ill-fated Fourth Expedition.
Nigel FitzMaurice
Catherine Hensley
Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:
> > My lady and I were wondering who was the first European woman to reach
> > the Americas?
>
> Interesting question. I heard recently on ATC that the first child born to
> a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
>
> ===========================================================================
> Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Well, now, if Spain counts as European, and if South America counts as
"America," then Jamestown sounds a hundred years too late. Remember, Columbus
sailed the ocean blue in 1492, and settlement wasn't far behind. South
American settlements began around 1500.
And if we are only talking North American settlements (puting aside the Viking
settlements, since they either failed or were abandoned), then Spanish
settlements were established in what are today California, New Mexico, and
Texas before the turn of the century--1600, that is. I'm shaky on when Spanish
settlements were established in Florida and Louisiana, but certainly the
Caribean islands had settlements before Jamestown, too.
Jamestown was late, and the English in general were way behind the boat. <g>
Everyone else got here first. But we only think of the English ones because
that is the only history we can read.
Support bi-lingual education. ;-)
Aithne, Outlands
I. Marc Carlson
>Still don't remember the author, but it's 'Peregrine White and Virginia
>Dare' (YKYISCA moment: sitting there doing my very high-tech engineering
>job when something like that pops out of the subconscious. It's always
>happening... ) I could have sworn both kids were girls, but I think of
>Peregrine as a boy's name. Virginia was still at Roanoke, though, which
>predates Jamestown.
You are right, Peregrine White, born between 7 and 10 Dec 1620, either
in Provincetown Harbor or Plymouth Harbor. He was followed by the
stillborn son of Mary Allerton on 22 Dec in Plymouth Harbor. Oceanus
Hopkins was born between 6 Sep and 11 Nov 1620 on the voyage over.
Since Peregrine married one Sarah Bassett before 6 Mar 1648/9, I assume
he was male :) (And yes, I looked it up).
>The initial 1607 Jamestown settlement...
True. However, since the majority of the settlement included some women
by the time the Mayflower sailed, there may have been intervening children.
I'll see if I can find out.
BTW, I stand corrected. Martin's Hundred was established (about 1618?)
as a plantation well after Jamestown was settled (in 1607), and it was
administered from Wolstenholme Towne. It was badly hit, first by the
winter of 1621/2, then really badly hit by the Massacre in 1622, afterwhich
it was abandoned briefly, then resettled until finally being abandoned
in 1645.
Marc/Diarmaid
ErichAwful
>a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
>
Actually, Virginia Dare, born in Roanoke in the 1580s, was the first English
child. She died / vanished / whatever happened along with the rest of 'em.
There were probably Spanish children born before then, in Florida or points
south. The first women didn't come to Jamestown until after 1610 - 1612 I
think (have to refresh my memory, it's a visitor FAQ)
Erich, sometime Jamestown volunteer
ErichAwful
>BTW what were the dates on Martin's Hundred? Before or after Jamestown?
>
Martin's Hundred was founded around 1619 or so, and wiped out in the 1622
Massacre. Jamestown is 1607. Martin's Hundred was abandoned after the
massacre, then resettled in the late 17th / early 19th century as a plantation.
The museum there does a great job of showing how archaeological puzzles are
solved. It also goes into some forensic inquiries about the massacre. There's
also the two close-faced helms found to date on North American soil, and lots
of other goodies. Oh, yes - a shirt of rivetted mail.
Go outside, and they have some frame outlines where buildings stood, and
markers where bodies were found. It is, without a doubt, one of the spookiest
places I've ever been.
Erich, Colonial Tidewater Tourist
I. Marc Carlson
Roanoake, 1587. 17 women (I'd list them by name, but I'm not sure
THAT interested).
2 children: Virginia Dare and ? Harvie
They all disappeared.
in 1607, 3 ships (Discovery, Godspeed, and Susan Constant) brought
a hundred passengers, of whom John Smith listed only 82 -- none of
whom were women. The Seaventure and Mary & Margaret brought more
settlers of whom I can currently find nothing, but it is assumed that
they were all men.
in 1608, at least 7 ships arrived with at least 200+ settlers, only one
of whom is named as a woman, Lady Temperance Yearlly (and she arrived
a year before her husband did, on a different ship).
it is only in 1609 that I can find reports for 2 women arriving (Elzbeth
Jones, and Thomasine Cassey, wife of Nathaniel Cassey). That seems pretty
extreme a gender ratio difference (a minimum of 100:1). I'm not sure *I*'d
have brought over my wife in such circumstances.
There have got to be better records than THIS out there.
*mutter*
Marc/Diarmaid
ErichAwful
>settlements were established in Florida and Louisiana, but certainly the
>Caribean islands had settlements before Jamestown, too.
There was a Jesuit mission on the York River, across the peninsula and
downstream from Jamestown, 35 years before J-town and 10 before Roanoke. They
pissed off the Powhatans and got wiped out.
Erich
Joan Akin
I heard recently on ATC that the first child born to
>>a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
>>
EAM
hen...@lanl.gov writes:
>Jamestown was late, and the English in general were way behind the boat. <g>
>Everyone else got here first. But we only think of the English ones because
>that is the only history we can read.
The first non-Scandinavian European woman to touch the mainland New World
(not counting Caribbean islands, especially Cuba) would probably have
been an unidentified Spanish camp follower with Cortez's forces, 1520.
Someone shipwrecked, however, could have been earlier. The second post
in this thread, in fact, pointed both of these facts out.
We went off on the English-colonial tangent mostly because of my faulty
memory ;-)
-- Elizabeth
Charles Buckley
I seem to recall readin recently that approximately 4000 settlers shipped to
Virginia between 1607 and 1624. They did a census in 1623 and showed that
there were only 1200 or so settlers still alive. Sir George Somers arrived with
6 ships on 11 Aug 1609 with 200-300 men, women and children. No exact
proportions are listed. By 1623, the birth of a child was common enough that
the order for the census assumed women and children. The first dutch child
born in New York was Sarah Rapalje.
The second supply ship also listed a Mistresse Forrest and Anne Burras her
maide. (I used the exact wording from the ships log). They came over in
the fall of 1608. Of course, they all mostly died off the following year.
I just got a good laugh.. One of the people sent on the list was Robert
Allerton. He's listed as a "perfumer" by profession.
The number of tailors sent were also quite high..
--
He was the boldest and most active one-legged
man that ever came to Iceland.
epitaph of Onund Treefoot
elie...@webtv.net
>The first non-Scandinavian European woman >to touch the mainland New
World
Wait a minute. The original poster never said "non-Scandinavian".
The first European woman to reach the Americas **was** a Scandinavian.
If I could have remembered her name, I would have posted sooner.
OK, whether or not the original poster wants to know, now I've gotten
myself curious. Who was she? I have read novels about her, and I seem
to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two. Anyone able to help
out here?
--Elfrida
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/4558/
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Choir/1589/
obsi...@raex.com
>Elizabeth wrote
>>The first non-Scandinavian European woman >to touch the mainland New
>World
>
>Wait a minute. The original poster never said "non-Scandinavian".
>
>The first European woman to reach the Americas **was** a Scandinavian.
>If I could have remembered her name, I would have posted sooner.
>
>OK, whether or not the original poster wants to know, now I've gotten
>myself curious. Who was she? I have read novels about her, and I seem
>to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two. Anyone able to help
>out here?
Greetings...
I'm an earlier replier to this thread; my vote was for the
Scandinavian expeditions as well. Here is what I said then, slightly
expanded:
Depends on what you mean by "the Americas". The easy answer is
the five women who accompanied the 60-man Third Vinland Expedition led
by Thorfinn Karlsefni, to what is now northern Newfoundland circa 1002
AD. The only one of these who is named is his wife, Gudrid
Thorbjornsdottir. A somewhat more oblique answer obtains if you
consider Greenland to be a part of the North American continent: in
this case, it is the unknown number of women who accompanied Eirik the
Red on his colonising expedition circa 985 AD. The only one of these
who is named is his daughter, Freydis Eiriksdottir, who later gained a
savage reputation in Newfoundland, during the ill-fated Fourth
Expedition.
Nigel FitzMaurice
EAM
elie...@webtv.net writes:
>The first European woman to reach the Americas **was** a Scandinavian.
>If I could have remembered her name, I would have posted sooner.
>
>OK, whether or not the original poster wants to know, now I've gotten
>myself curious. Who was she? I have read novels about her, and I seem
>to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two.
I said 'non-Scandinavian' because I felt it was pretty well acknowledged
that the true first _was_ Scandinavian, unless, as one poster said, you
excluded them on the grounds of lack of follow-through.
However, if you'd like another novel in which Gudrid - wife of Thorfinn
Karlsefni and mother (in Newfoundland) of Snorri; other posts in this
thread gave her patronymic - appears, I heartily recommend _The
Technicolor Time Machine_ . (The author escapes me at the moment; guess
I need a better trap... ;-)
-- Elizabeth
Joan Akin
I have read novels about her, and I seem
>>to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two.
>
Why read another novel when the sagas themselves are really fascinating?
Shockingly so. In fact, now I want to reread them.... Joana
I. Marc Carlson
>OK, whether or not the original poster wants to know, now I've gotten
>to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two. Anyone able to help
>out here?
Who was Gudrid Thorbjarnardottir? Well, let's see. She first shows
up at Brattahlid at Eiriksfjord, when her father, Thorbjorn, moved there
on the advice of the seeress, Thorbjorg. She eventually marries
Thorstein Eiriksson (one of the three sons of Eirik the Red).
Now, according to the Greenlanders Saga, after the death of Thorvald
Eiriksson in Vinland, Thorstein swore to go there and collect his brother's
body, so he and his wife took a ship as far north as Lysufjord in the
Western Settlement before getting iced in for the winter. There they
stay with Thorstein the Black and his wife Grimhild.
According to Eric the Red's Saga, Thorstein and Gudrid are just visiting
Lysufjord, although there is some preparation for Thorstein to voyage to
Vinland before that. They stay with Thorstein the Black and his wife
Sigrid.
There is great sickness (caused by ab evil spell) and the wife of
Thorstein the Black and Thorstein Eiriksson both die. However, once
he is dead, Thorstein Eiriksson returns from the dead and makes a number
of important prophesies about Gudrids life.
In the Spring, Gudrid returns to Brattahlid with Thorstein the Black,
and he goes off to work as a blacksmith or something. Shortly thereafter,
though Thorfinn Thordsson karlsefni ("Now THAT's a Man") arrives in
Eiriksfjord from Norway (Eric the Red's Saga says he came with 2 ships
and Snorri Thorbrandsson).
Later that year, in the winter, Gudrid and Karlsefni marry.
The next spring, they set sail for Vinland.
Now, here the stories differ somewhat.
In the Greenlander's Saga, Thorfinn karlsefni and Gudrid sail to
Leifsbudir (or "Leif's Booths", the place set up by Leif during his
first visit, which some people believe to be L'anse aux meadows).).
The next year, Karlsefni's people meet the Skraelings. They trade milk
for furs, and Karlsefni builds a large stockade around his house.
Snorri Thorfinnsson is born. That winter, they are approached by
Skraelings again, who fight with them. Gudrid sees a strange magical
woman during the fighting. One of the Skraelings is killed. The
Skraelings and the Norse meet for a third time and fight.
The NEXT year, Karlsefni packs up and sails for Eiriksfjord. Freydis
travels to Vinland with two ships and behaves badly.
Karlsefni sails to Norway with a richly filled ship. While there,
Karlsefni sells his figurehead (carved of Vinland "maple") to a man
from Bremen for a Mark of gold. Then he and Gudrid sail for Iceland,
Karlsefni builds his home at Glaumbaejarland in Iceland (his ship is
drawn ashore at Skagafjord).
In Eric the Red's Saga, Thorfinn karlsefni, Gudrid, Snorri, and
Thorvald, Eirik the Red's Son-in-law (Husband of Freydis), and Thorhall
ALL sail to Vinland in three ships. They find a place like the keel of
a ship that they name Kjarlarnes. They find long beaches they name
Furdustrandr "Marvel Strands". South of Furdustrandr, they go ashore
at an island they name Straumsey, and find a place they name
Straumsfjord. And there Snorri Thorfinnson is born.
The next year, Karlsefni and his people split up with Thorhall, who wants to
explore for Vinland to the North. Thorhall is blown off course and lands
in Ireland, where he dies. Karlselfni and his people continue south to
Hop, "Land lock Bay". There they find Skraelings in skin boats. Karlsefni
and his people set up houses.
The NEXT year, Karlsefni's people fight the Skraelings, but they are driven
off by the pregnant Freydis. Karlselfni and his people sail north to
Straumsfjord, where they kill more Skraelings. They are attacked by
Skraelings again. A Uniped kills Thorvald.
The next year, Karlsefni and his people return to Greenland. They find
several Skraelings and bring two native boys they dragged home for
baptism. Bjarni's ship starts to founder, and so they abandon it
and much of the crew, who eventually find their way to Ireland
Several years later, Karlsefni returns to Iceland with Gudrid.
After this, Gudrid becomes the famed ancestress to bishops and nobles,
some of whom got to gether and commissioned the writing of the Sagas.
FWIW, none of the Sagas *I* read mentioned the number of people in the
ships, the number of women who went with them, or anything *quite* that
specific.
If you are interested, you might take a look at them for yourself. They
are readily available in English.
Marc/Diarmaid
Ferret
> >I'm not sure that this is particularly precise to the discussion as the
> >original question was the first European woman in America, not the first
> >English woman...
Does anyone have info on the Greenland and Lanse aux Meadow settlements
? It seems that the Greenland settlements were a community (until the
14th cent.) that included women. Any access to the tithing records for
the Greenlanders ? I recall a document recording the _end_ of tithing
but not prior records.
Ferret
obsi...@raex.com
<LIB...@centum.utulsa.edu> wrote:
<snip extensive review of the salient events as described in "Eiriks
Saga" and "Graenlendinga Saga">
>FWIW, none of the Sagas *I* read mentioned the number of people in the
>ships, the number of women who went with them, or anything *quite* that
>specific.
>
>If you are interested, you might take a look at them for yourself. They
>are readily available in English.
Greetings...
Er, well, ok; mebbe it doesn't say so in the original Norse or
something. My translation ("The Vinland Sagas" Penguin Books, 1973
printing) has comments like:
..."Eirik returned to Brattahlid, but Leif went on board the
ship with his crew of thirty-five. Among them was a Southerner called
Tyrkir."... (p. 55)
and:
..."There was still the same talk about Vinland voyages as
before, and everyone, including Gudrid, kept urging Karlsefni to make
the voyage. In the end he decided to sail and gathered a company of
sixty men and five women. He made an agreement that everyone should
share equally in whatever profits the expedition might yield."... (p.
64-65)
Nigel FitzMaurice
Herm...@usa.net
obsi...@raex.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:30:27 -0400 (EDT), elie...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> >Elizabeth wrote
> >>The first non-Scandinavian European woman >to touch the mainland New
> >World
> >
> >Wait a minute. The original poster never said "non-Scandinavian".
> >
> >If I could have remembered her name, I would have posted sooner.
> >
> >myself curious. Who was she? I have read novels about her, and I seem
> >to remember that she is mentioned in a Saga or two. Anyone able to help
> >out here?
>
> I'm an earlier replier to this thread; my vote was for the
> Scandinavian expeditions as well. Here is what I said then, slightly
> expanded:
>
> Depends on what you mean by "the Americas". The easy answer is
> the five women who accompanied the 60-man Third Vinland Expedition led
> by Thorfinn Karlsefni, to what is now northern Newfoundland circa 1002
> AD.
_______________________________________________________
Hello all:
O.K. folks sagas are very interesting and all but they are
just that sagas. Sagas are tales and academically they don't
stand up as history. Yes, I realise that many tales begin with
some real events but they go far off the deep end ( see
Jason and his Argonauts, Arthur etc.) They are essentially
legends.
The first _documentable_ European women in America ***were***
Castillian, not Scandinavian. They were brought to the
first European settlement on the American continent
- namely, Cortes'settlement in Mexico, La Villa Rica
de la Vera Cruz. Here in c.1519, several Castillian women accompanied
his expedition as nurses. How many are several?? I'm not certain,
I'd have to do more research but I am aware of Isabel Rodriguez and
Beatriz de Padres to name two.
As an aside, the first solidly _ documentable_ European settlement
in the U.S.A. is San Augustino/ St. Augustine in Florida. In 1565
Don Pedro Menendez de Aviles founded the first permanent settlement
with the help of 600 Spanish soldiers and settlers. It has ever
since been inhabited. In fact this September 8th it will celebrate
it's 433rd birthday !!!!!!! Thank Rey Felipe II.
Ramon Maldonado Domenech
Boci...@warwick.net
P.S. Another aside, for those interested, horses came to America
in 1519 also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burn old wood
Drink old wine
Read old books
Keep old friends
Don Alfonso X 'El Sabio' Rey de Castilla, Toledo, Leon, Galicia, Cordoba,
Sevilla, Jaen, Murcia y Algarve (1252-1284)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Robin Kimmy
> <EAM <SP...@nospam.com>>
> >Still don't remember the author, but it's 'Peregrine White and
> >Virginia Dare' (YKYISCA moment: sitting there doing my very high-
> >tech engineering job when something like that pops out of the
> >subconscious. It's always happening... ) I could have sworn
> >both kids were girls, but I think of Peregrine as a boy's name.
> >Virginia was still at Roanoke, though, which predates Jamestown.
>
> You are right, Peregrine White, born between 7 and 10 Dec 1620,
> either in Provincetown Harbor or Plymouth Harbor. He was followed
> by the stillborn son of Mary Allerton on 22 Dec in Plymouth Harbor.
> Oceanus Hopkins was born between 6 Sep and 11 Nov 1620 on the voyage
> over.
>
> Since Peregrine married one Sarah Bassett before 6 Mar 1648/9, I
> assume he was male :) (And yes, I looked it up).
Kind Gentles, I agree.
Checking family genelogical records (compiled from _The Mayflower
Quarterly_): Peregrine (Pereqrine, sp?) White was male. The rest of my
data also matches: born Dec 1620 "aboard the Mayflower," married Sarah
Bassett 16 Mar 1648/9.
--Robin of Silverwood/Robin K.
ForlornH
>> either in Provincetown Harbor or Plymouth Harbor.
I'm not sure that this is particularly precise to the discussion as the
original question was the first European woman in America, not the first
English woman. There must have been some in the early Spanish cities like St.
Augustine and those in Latin America and the Caribbean. Wouldn't know where to
look...
Rich Goranson (Lord Stephan Calvert deGrey)
Buffalo, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, Æthelmearc)
Diplomacy addict, FFRF member, Expos fan and medieval re-creationist
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - Henry
II
Jeff Suzuki
: Interesting question. I heard recently on ATC that the first child born to
: a European woman in the Americas was in the Jamestown colony.
I'm not sure what constituted "the Jamestown colony" according to ATC (?
wuzzat?), but my recollection is that the first English child was Virginia
Dare, of the lost Roanoke colony.
Jeffs/William
blues
> just that sagas. Sagas are tales and academically they don't
> stand up as history. Yes, I realise that many tales begin with
> some real events but they go far off the deep end ( see
> Jason and his Argonauts, Arthur etc.) They are essentially
> legends.
Excellent point. The Sagas, while most probably at least *based* on
historical fact, were written centuries after the fact and were directly
based on stories from an oral tradition. Granted, the stories were only
a couple of centuries old by the time they were written down and may
contain a good deal of actual history, but they cannot be used as a
primary source for anything that happened in the "Viking Age."
There is a school ot thought that claims all of the "Vinland sagas" were
just different versions of a single story. Maybe, maybe not. However,
unless a second Norse sight (L'Anse aux Meadows being the first) in
North America is discovered we may never know either way.
Gunnbjorn
--
The Blues Viking Online! (New Articles Added 2/23/98)
http://ic.net/~blues
I. Marc Carlson
>>> You are right, Peregrine White, born between 7 and 10 Dec 1620,=20
>>> either in Provincetown Harbor or Plymouth Harbor.=20
>I'm not sure that this is particularly precise to the discussion as the
>original question was the first European woman in America, not the first
Perhaps not. I had assumed that since there was response or two, someone
might find it as interesting a tangent as I had (especially as the other
question had already been answered in part). My apologies.
Marc/Diarmaid
Craig Levin
> Hello all:
>
> O.K. folks sagas are very interesting and all but they are
> just that sagas. Sagas are tales and academically they don't
> stand up as history. Yes, I realise that many tales begin with
> some real events but they go far off the deep end ( see
> Jason and his Argonauts, Arthur etc.) They are essentially
> legends.
Dunno how it is for you, but: the sagas aren't like the Arthurian
romances or the tale of the Argonauts. It seems to me that
they're much more like closely-written historical fiction (when
not actual history), like that of Sharon Penman, rather than
romances based on the "dim past" like Chretien de Troyes. I
wouldn't trust Penman on her central characters, but the general
flow of the events look to be correct to me. De Troyes (or
Geoffrey of Monmouth) aren't historians at all.
In Service,
Dom Pedro de Alcazar
Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
Storvik Pursuivant
Argent, a tower purpure between 3 bunches of grapes proper
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
cle...@ripco.com
Craig Levin
obsi...@raex.com
<snip>
>BTW what were the dates on Martin's Hundred? Before or after Jamestown?
>
>-- Elizabeth
Greetings...
Martin's Hundred Plantation was established in 1619, ten years
after Jamestown. It was more-or-less destroyed in March of 1622,
though some remnants of settlement held on for several more years.
Nigel FitzMaurice
ForlornH
>might find it as interesting a tangent as I had (especially as the other
>question had already been answered in part). My apologies.
>
Oh, I found it a wonderfully interesting tangent. But those of us in the US
almost autonomically will think of the question as the first English woman in
what is now the US. The way history is "taught" in this country makes this
habit very difficult to break. It is likely that we will be better able to find
an answer to this question than the original one.
Has anyone considered the failed Vinland colony in Newfoundland? Also,
Greenland is considered geographically part of North America and the
documentation for THAT colony should be pretty solid.
Elaine Ragland
> In article <35E48A00...@lanl.gov> Catherine Hensley,
> hen...@lanl.gov writes:
> >Jamestown was late, and the English in general were way behind the boat. <g>
> >Everyone else got here first. But we only think of the English ones because
> >that is the only history we can read.
>
> The first non-Scandinavian European woman to touch the mainland New World
> (not counting Caribbean islands, especially Cuba) would probably have
> been an unidentified Spanish camp follower with Cortez's forces, 1520.
> Someone shipwrecked, however, could have been earlier. The second post
> in this thread, in fact, pointed both of these facts out.
>
> We went off on the English-colonial tangent mostly because of my faulty
> memory ;-)
>
> -- Elizabeth
I don't have the Vinland Saga in front of me, but I seem to remember that
there were women on the voyage. There was a lot of sexual tension the
winter they stayed in the New World, because the married men had brought
their wives and the bachelors couldn't get the skraelings to put out.
Elaine M. Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour