Crowns, cornets, circlets: who what and why???
Cindleap
headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think you are trting to
be someone you're not?
Are there any guidelines written down somewhere or is this just decided
according to custom and tradition?
I live in AEthelmearc but would like info on the SCA as a whole also.
Any help would be apprciated.
Thank you,
Lady Katya
(Cindy Leap)
Dorothy J Heydt
Cindleap <cind...@aol.com> wrote:
>What are the differences between crowns, cornets and circlets? What kind of
>headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think you are trting to
>be someone you're not?
>
>Are there any guidelines written down somewhere or is this just decided
>according to custom and tradition?
In the first place, it varies by Kingdom--to some extent anyway.
Most Kingdoms have their versions of the rules written down
somewhere, and I'm sure someone will post where to find the
AEthelmarc version.
In the West, "Crowns" are worn by the King and Queen, "coronets"
are worn by Princes, Princes' heirs, and Royal Peers (Dukes,
Counts, Viscounts) and Barons---and all their feminine
equivalents. Coronets for Laurels and Pelicans are coming slowly
into Western usage, but there aren't many yet. Generally, a
"coronet" is a piece of headgear showing rank, and a "circlet" is
just a piece of headgear.
Still speaking of the West, Ducal coronets have strawberry leaves
[I believe that's Society-wide, actually], Comital coronets have
embattlements, and Vicomital and Baronial coronets can look like
just about anything you like. The Vicomital coronets of
Alfred of Carlyle and Tyne of Lostwithiel are fantastic pieces of
jewelry looking like Gothic architecture, with little movable
bits hanging in some of the niches. Others are very simple: see
below.
Baronial coronets (whether for landed or unlanded barons, the
latter very plentiful and familiarily known as "landless white
trash") do not need to have pearls (this shocked the hell out of
the Baroness of Stonemarche), but frequently do.
Laurel and Pelican coronets should, and generally do, have
something looking like a laurel wreath or a pelican on them
somewhere.
Digression on the Stealth Peers of the West
A recurring element in the West is the "stealth coronet" or other
"stealth regalia" worn by the "stealth Peer." The West has no
sumptuary laws except those set down by Corpora (white belts for
knights, etc.), but we have a few sumptuary *customs* that are
maybe more powerful than laws, and the most important is "Don't put
on the dog," don't show off, don't dress fancy, don't wear regalia
except maybe for court if then, unless it's something low-key like
a dirty worn knight's belt and length of tarnished lamp chain.
(Most of our major events are camping events in rough country anyway,
and fine clothing would soon be ruined. Exceptions are made for
our relatively few indoor events, and Twelfth Night Coronation is
the opportunity to dress very fine in the garments you've been
working on all year.
(The one time I got to Pennsic, I was amazed to see many people
tromping around in the mud and dust in expensive, glittery finery
which must soon have gotten ruined, although I realized that (a)
Pennsic is the biggest social event of the year for them and they
wanted to show off and (b) since most or all of their other events
are indoor events, indoor clothing is what they mostly have.)
The archetypal example of the "stealth Peer" is Leticia de
Scotia, "the stealth Duchess." She always dresses in Normans,
which become her slender figure very well, and she wears those
round veils. You just about have to have a circlet to hold the
veil on, so she has a little silver circlet. If you get real
close, you discover that there are little clusters of strawberry
leaves on it, each cluster about the size of a dime.
Katherine of Bristol, both a Viscountess and a Pelican, has a stealth
Pelican coronet with one little roundel on it marked with the Pelican,
also about the size of a dime.
I have a silver Celtic cross with a laurel wreath engraved in the
ring and a tiny little Pelican in the center, rather smaller than
a dime, about the size of a shirt button. You have to get quite
close to realize what it is.
(So it also surprised me to see Court Baron[esse]s going about
at Pennsic wearing coronets with pearls the size of walnuts.)
Not all Western Peers are stealth Peers, and not all stealth
Peers are Western. But the distribution definitely tends that
way.
This custom has been known to upset some people--not so much so
in the West, where we are very laid-back about rank and titles
and we first-name each other a lot--and occasionally you hear the
complaint, "But I didn't *know* she was a Duchess, she wasn't
wearing her regalia. It isn't fair! How can I show her proper
respect when I don't know her rank? People shouldn't do
deceptive things like that!"
To which the obvious answer is, "You mean you'd treat someone
differently if you knew she ranked you? Differently from the way
you'd treat her if you knew you ranked her? For shame! We are
ALL lords and ladies here, and all should be treated with
courtesy and respect."
End digression....
Getting back to circlets, in the West anyone can wear one. You
don't, e.g., have to have an AoA to wear a metal circlet, nor
does anybody keep track of width or metallic content. Such
general-purpose circlets don't have points or other elaborations
in their lines, but they can be as lavishly decorated as the
wearer likes. There used to be, maybe still is, a merchant
selling brass and German silver circlets with Celtic interlaces,
leaves, cats, etc., enameled on them.
Others will undoubtedly post comments on usages in their
Kingdoms, which is always fascinating reading. We call it
"InterKingdom Anthropology."
As for the concept of offending anybody by appearing to be what
you're not, you need to realize, first, that anyone who would be
*offended* by somebody wearing the wrong hat is a snob whose
opinion should be discounted; second, that you may as well not go
out of your way to cross such a person's path; third, that it is
a good thing to avoid confusing people.
And therefore, fourth, it's a good idea to find out what your
native Kingdom's rules are, and go along with them.
But fifth, you should realize that when Kingdom rules differ, the
less restrictive rules prevail. So if you get an award in one
Kingdom that permits you to wear some hat or other, and you then
go to another Kingdom where such a hat is not customary, you can
still wear it.
(An example, not involving hats, are the silver chains worn by
squires in the Midrealm and some other places. In the West, *all*
plain open chains are reserved to Knights (though their use by
Laurels and Pelicans is still under debate). But when a Midrealm
squire visits the West, he can still wear his silver chain; he just
attracts some funny looks. And the custom of Laurel and Pelican
coronets, which as I said is still catching hold, began with a
Laurel who moved from An Tir to the West and went on wearing her
coronet.)
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Q'vaD <qv...@cdcbetleH.net> wrote:
>
>As far as coronets, crowns, circlets, etc., I'm afraid I don't have
>any specific information...though IIRC you are supposed to have earned
>a title/peerage (?) before you can wear them.
Depends on the variety of headgear, and the Kingdom you're in.
See my other post.
Corun MacAnndra
>
> Coronets for Laurels and Pelicans are coming slowly
>into Western usage, but there aren't many yet.
In Atlantia a new tradition is starting up among the Pelicans, that being
the cap of maintenance. Since this is one of the charges that can be
displayed as regalia by a Pelican, one who was newly minted last year,
Dame Winifred (the title Dame vs Mistress is coming into fashion also),
decided she wanted a cap of maintenance because the Pelicans didn't really
have much regalia to display when a new member was elevated (knights
having more Stuff, chains, spurs, white belt and Laurels having cloaks
and wreath circlets). The form it has taken is a blue cap (blue for
Atlantia) with a brim of white fur studded with red feathers to represent
the gouttes.
It is becoming the fashion to bestow these caps on new Pelicans when
they're elevated. Some of the newer Pelicans in Atlantia have taken to
them with glee, while others can't wait to bestow theirs on an older
Pelican who is bereft of one.
>unlanded barons...familiarily known as "landless white trash"
Exceot for Baron Achbar who is landless, and sometimes talks trash when
he's punning, but is anything but white. ;-) Ask him sometime to tell
of the time he crashed the LWT party at PEnnsic.
>Digression on the Stealth Peers of the West
[snip]
Master Terafan, who is also a Court Baron, has a stealth coronet in the
form of an Elizabethan flat cap with six pearls on the edge. Very fetching.
In service,
Corun
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval!
> What are the differences between crowns, cornets and circlets? What kind of
> headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think you are trting to
> be someone you're not?
In the SCA, a "crown" is something worn by royalty, a "coronet" is
something worn by a royal peer or baron/ess, and a "circlet" is what
everyone else wears. In the real world, "crown" and "coronet" are
basically synonymous, and "circlet" doesn't really mean "head-jewelry" at
all, and there are also tiaras, coronels, and several other categories of
head-jewelry.
> Are there any guidelines written down somewhere or is this just decided
> according to custom and tradition?
There are a few Society-wide rules: A coronet ornamented with strawberry
leaves may only be worn by nobles of ducal rank. A coronet ornamented with
embattlements may only be worn by those of county rank. A coronet
ornamented with 6 pearls (balls, regardless of color or material) is
reserved for baronial rank, and a coronet with many pearls is reserved for
viscounty rank. Many kingdoms have other restrictions, some of them (in my
opinion) absurdly complicated and picky. Until recently, corporate rules
gauranteed everyone in the Society the right to wear a plain, unornamented
band as head jewelry, but the Board recently voided that rule and let the
kingdoms restrict even that simple style.
None of these rules are consistent with anything from our period. In most
times and places in our period, people wore whatever head-jewelry was
fashionable and within thier means. The Societywide rules are based on
modern British sumptuary customs that have their roots in very late-period
English practices. There are a couple other times and places late in our
period where analogous rules existed, but many kingdoms go well beyond
these in complexity.
> I live in AEthelmearc but would like info on the SCA as a whole also.
I do not know what rules Aethelmearc has. The Eastrealm has no sumptuary
laws beyond those imposed by the corporation.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Corun MacAnndra <co...@clark.net> wrote:
>>unlanded barons...familiarily known as "landless white trash"
>
>Exceot for Baron Achbar who is landless, and sometimes talks trash when
>he's punning, but is anything but white. ;-) Ask him sometime to tell
>of the time he crashed the LWT party at PEnnsic.
At the present time, I don't think we have any unlanded Barons in
the West who are people of color. I can think of a couple of
people regarding whom the King might see fit to change that
statistic at any moment, though.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Arval d'Espas Nord <mit...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>There are a few Society-wide rules: A coronet ornamented with strawberry
>leaves may only be worn by nobles of ducal rank. A coronet ornamented with
>embattlements may only be worn by those of county rank. A coronet
>ornamented with 6 pearls (balls, regardless of color or material) is
>reserved for baronial rank, and a coronet with many pearls is reserved for
>viscounty rank.
Arval, are you *sure* that's Society-wide? In the West at least,
you may find a few pearls, or six pearls, or whole bunches of
pearls, or no pearls whatever on Baronial coronets (landed or
unlanded). And viscomital coronets can look like anything whatever,
see my previous post.
Jay Rudin
> This custom has been known to upset some people--not so much so
> in the West, where we are very laid-back about rank and titles
> and we first-name each other a lot--and occasionally you hear the
> complaint, "But I didn't *know* she was a Duchess, she wasn't
> wearing her regalia. It isn't fair! How can I show her proper
> respect when I don't know her rank? People shouldn't do
> deceptive things like that!"
>
> To which the obvious answer is, "You mean you'd treat someone
> differently if you knew she ranked you? Differently from the way
> you'd treat her if you knew you ranked her? For shame! We are
> ALL lords and ladies here, and all should be treated with
> courtesy and respect."
I agree with the main point, which is that everybody should be treated
with respect. I just don't believe that the story has anything to do
with that point.
*Of course* I treat people differently based on their rank. I call
Willow "Your Grace", and I call Aislinn "Mistress Aislinn", and I call
the person with the kingdom's newest Award of Arms "Lady Y". That's
"treating her differently". I reject the implicit assumption that
showing different treatment automatically implies lack of courtesy or
respect.
Using somebody's correct title shows respect and courtesy -- including
using the correct title of people whom you outrank. Furthermore, using
the new title of the young armiger gives her far more pleasure than
using "Your Grace" gives a Duchess.
I usually don't wear my peerage insignia or coronet myself, and don't
get upset when people don't know my rank. Of course, my goal is for my
highest rank to be "Robin", and for my respect and courtesy to come from
who I am, rather than from my titles. This implies that I won't get
that level of respect from people who don't know me, whether I'm wearing
my insignia or not. People who get their highest respect from their
rank get very little respect indeed.
Robin of Gilwell / jay Rudin
Tracy Schulman
Æthelmearc, like the East from which we came, has no sumptuary laws.
In Service,
Aine
> ..........
> > I live in AEthelmearc but would like info on the SCA as a whole also.
>
> I do not know what rules Aethelmearc has. The Eastrealm has no sumptuary
> laws beyond those imposed by the corporation.
>
> ===========================================================================
Tigranes of Bezabde
Cindleap wrote:
> What are the differences between crowns, cornets and circlets? What kind of
> headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think you are trting to
> be someone you're not?
>
> Are there any guidelines written down somewhere or is this just decided
> according to custom and tradition?
>
> I live in AEthelmearc but would like info on the SCA as a whole also.
>
> Any help would be apprciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lady Katya
> (Cindy Leap)
Here in AEthelmearc, there are no kingdom specific sumptuary (sp?) laws. You can
basically wear whatever you like, plain or fancy. Of course, it's always a good
idea to avoid offending dukes, earls, barons, etc. (and all female counterparts
thereof), so the items mentioned by Arval are best avoided. One trend in the
eastern part of the Kingdom is tooled leather circlets, depicting favorite motifs
of the wearer (heraldic, beasties, etc.). But no one will call you down for
wearing, say, a diamond-studded tiara (though some might snicker).
I hope this helps,
Tigranes, Baron Endless Hills
Dawn Fry
chatelaine/castellan/hospitaller-type person for the booklet that they give to new
people.
In Calontir, that book is "Good Gentles All." Crowns and coronets are listed on page
5-7, under the heading "Who Does What?." Other sumptuary laws are listed on page 14
under "What Not to Wear."
You may also try asking your local herald. Heralds tend to attend a lot of court
functions.
Lady Banba MacDermot
Raptor Pursuivant (title registration in progress)
Calontir
John W. Kennedy
> In the real world, "crown" and "coronet" are
> basically synonymous,
No, in the real world a "crown" has arches and is worn by kings and
queens (and perhaps by independent princes?) and a "coronet" has no
arches (except for the Prince of Wales' coronet, which has a single
arch) and is worn by lesser royalty and nobility. There are specific
rules for the design of the various noble coronets (like the ducal
strawberry leaves), which differ between actual coronets and and
heraldic.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
John W. Kennedy
>
> On 03 Feb 2000 18:28:03 GMT, cind...@aol.com (Cindleap) wrote:
>
> >What are the differences between crowns, cornets and circlets? What kind of
> >headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think you are trting to
> >be someone you're not?
>
>
> A *cornet* is a post-period valved brass instrument similar to a
> trumpet. While you technically could wear one as headgear (which would
> require a few modifications...to the cornet, not your head) and
> probably not offend anyone, you'd look somewhat silly. }}:->
A cornet is also a period instrument. It can be loosely described as a
recorder with a trumpet's mouthpiece instead of a fipple.
It also means one of the paper things you buy candied almonds in at a
RenFaire.
It also means a junior cavalry subaltern -- I'm not sure how old this
usage is.
It also means headgear, in certain nun's habits -- I'm not sure about
the age of this one, either; the Sisters of Charity (the example I know
of) are of very modern foundation.
Arval d'Espas Nord
Dorothea wrote:
> Arval, are you *sure* that's Society-wide? In the West at least,
> you may find a few pearls, or six pearls, or whole bunches of
> pearls, or no pearls whatever on Baronial coronets (landed or
> unlanded). And viscomital coronets can look like anything whatever,
> see my previous post.
You're right: the viscomital and baronial coronets are not defined at the
corporate level. The list of Societywide regalia can be found at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1998/10/cvr.html. I don't recall whether
anything has been added to the list since then. Note that this list
contains "A crown", a phrase so vague that it could cover anything at all.
Of course, the fact that a particular coronet is reserved for a given rank
does not mean that people with that rank _must_ wear that style of coronet.
David Friedman
jwke...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:
>
> > In the real world, "crown" and "coronet" are
> > basically synonymous,
>
> No, in the real world a "crown" has arches and is worn by kings and
> queens (and perhaps by independent princes?) and a "coronet" has no
> arches (except for the Prince of Wales' coronet, which has a single
> arch) and is worn by lesser royalty and nobility.
If so, that sounds like an interesting early example of grade inflation.
Unless I am mistaken, arches originally signified an imperial crown. Is
it possible you are confusing the tokens of the King of England with the
tokens of the Emperor of India, and that the former never got around to
abondoning the latter?
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! I had written:
me> In the real world, "crown" and "coronet" are basically synonymous,
John Kennedy replied:
> No, in the real world a "crown" has arches and is worn by kings and
> queens (and perhaps by independent princes?) and a "coronet" has no
> arches (except for the Prince of Wales' coronet, which has a single arch)
> and is worn by lesser royalty and nobility. > There are specific rules
> for the design of the various noble coronets (like the ducal strawberry
> leaves), which differ between actual coronets and and heraldic.
All true for the system of regalia for modern British nobility. That
system did not exist in our period, though the first versions of it were
devised in England in the 16th century. In common usage (and, as far as I
know, in period usage), "coronet" simply means a smaller and perhaps less
ornate crown. It isn't exactly synonymous with "crown", but it's pretty
close. Check your dictionary: It will probably give "crown" as a synonym
for "coronet".
Michael Houghton
In article <FpDDE...@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> (An example, not involving hats, are the silver chains worn by
> squires in the Midrealm and some other places. In the West, *all*
> plain open chains are reserved to Knights (though their use by
> Laurels and Pelicans is still under debate). But when a Midrealm
> squire visits the West, he can still wear his silver chain; he just
> attracts some funny looks. And the custom of Laurel and Pelican
> coronets, which as I said is still catching hold, began with a
> Laurel who moved from An Tir to the West and went on wearing her
> coronet.)
>
Acutally, this is not such a good example, as plain chains are reserved
to Knights alone. De jure, the concept of "squire chains" or "fealty
chains" is not permitted.
yours,
Herveus
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
her...@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
Dorothy J Heydt
Michael Houghton <her...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>Acutally, this is not such a good example, as plain chains are reserved
>to Knights alone. De jure, the concept of "squire chains" or "fealty
>chains" is not permitted.
That may be, but in some Kingdoms they distinguish knights'
chains, in gold (or look-alike), from squires' chains, in silver
(etc.). Duke Garick von Kopke, who has ruled once over
Drachenwald and once over the West*, and whose chain happens to
be silver, came to a costume party once wearing his own chain and
somebody else's red belt, protraying "a Midrealm Squire."
Dorothy J Heydt
Arval d'Espas Nord <mit...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Of course, the fact that a particular coronet is reserved for a given rank
>does not mean that people with that rank _must_ wear that style of coronet.
Also true. This is an area where custom can be stronger than
law. I've already mentioned the Eastern Baroness who was
profoundly shocked by Western Baronial coronets without
pearls--including, IIRc, one in leather and one in wood.
Michael Houghton
In article <hSlm4.217$lK6....@iad-read.news.verio.net>,
Corun MacAnndra <co...@clark.net> wrote:
>
>In Atlantia a new tradition is starting up among the Pelicans, that being
>the cap of maintenance. Since this is one of the charges that can be
>displayed as regalia by a Pelican, one who was newly minted last year,
>Dame Winifred (the title Dame vs Mistress is coming into fashion also),
>decided she wanted a cap of maintenance because the Pelicans didn't really
>have much regalia to display when a new member was elevated (knights
>having more Stuff, chains, spurs, white belt and Laurels having cloaks
>and wreath circlets). The form it has taken is a blue cap (blue for
>Atlantia) with a brim of white fur studded with red feathers to represent
>the gouttes.
The practice is not that new. The first one I recall was Dafydd ap Gwystl,
which was five years ago.
Note also that the cap of maintenance has long been reserved as regalia
for Pelicans.
Note further that (as I recall), the regalia is traditionally a cap of blue
with red-spotted ermine, except the firstr five pelicans who get a
purple cap.
In the mundane world, a cap of maintenance is crimson with real ermine.
Michael Houghton
In article <FpF4E...@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <87f4jn$k6m$1...@saltmine.radix.net>,
>Michael Houghton <her...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>
>>Acutally, this is not such a good example, as plain chains are reserved
>>to Knights alone. De jure, the concept of "squire chains" or "fealty
>>chains" is not permitted.
>
>That may be, but in some Kingdoms they distinguish knights'
>chains, in gold (or look-alike), from squires' chains, in silver
>(etc.). Duke Garick von Kopke, who has ruled once over
>Drachenwald and once over the West*, and whose chain happens to
>be silver, came to a costume party once wearing his own chain and
>somebody else's red belt, protraying "a Midrealm Squire."
>
I realize that. I chose my words carefully.
De jure, only knights may wear plain chains, whatever the color.
De jure, there is no such thing as a "squire's chain" or a "fealty chain".
Now, you could argue for changing the law, etc. I am only pointing out
what the official sources say, without suggesting that one should be
a stick-in-the-mud about it.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jay Rudin <jru...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:
[I said]
>
>> ...and occasionally you hear the
>> complaint, "But I didn't *know* she was a Duchess, she wasn't
>> wearing her regalia. It isn't fair! How can I show her proper
>> respect when I don't know her rank? People shouldn't do
>> deceptive things like that!"
>>
>> To which the obvious answer is, "You mean you'd treat someone
>> differently if you knew she ranked you? Differently from the way
>> you'd treat her if you knew you ranked her? For shame!...
>I agree with the main point, which is that everybody should be treated
>with respect. I just don't believe that the story has anything to do
>with that point.
Oh, trust me, in context, that was exactly what it was about.
Some people apparently can't feel they are any good unless they
know they're better than somebody. (For frequently erroneous
values of "better.")
>
>*Of course* I treat people differently based on their rank. I call
>Willow "Your Grace", and I call Aislinn "Mistress Aislinn",
[snip, rearrange]
Are these people you know well?
It's Interkingdom Anthropology again, you see; in the West we are
much less formal and first-name each other a lot more often,
generally with the exception of Court.
>and I call
>the person with the kingdom's newest Award of Arms "Lady Y". That's
>"treating her differently".
>Furthermore, using
>the new title of the young armiger gives her far more pleasure than
>using "Your Grace" gives a Duchess.
Of course it does. That is a situation where using a title, even
to someone you know well, makes sense--ONCE.
(Though mind you, a number of the younger people in the West get
terribly embarrassed when they get their AoAs, and are positively
mortified when anybody uses a title on them.)
[snip, rearrange]
>I reject the implicit assumption that
>showing different treatment automatically implies lack of courtesy or
>respect.
That is because you are a nice fellow who has no interest in
finding out that somebody ranks below you so that you can look
down your long icy nose at him.
(A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
>Using somebody's correct title shows respect and courtesy -- including
>using the correct title of people whom you outrank.
IKA again. Yes, there is no disrespect involved in using
someone's correct title (unless it's one of the youngsters I just
mentioned, and you're teasing them with malice aforethought); but
there is no disrespect in NOT using the title either, at least
not in the West.
One lady I know carefully instructs her children to use people's
names within the household and titles in public. This works too,
especially in the case of a child whom, for all practical
purposes, everybody ranks.
It corresponds, in a way, to the use of formal and familiar
pronouns in some European languages. I remember reading a
Spanish text in high school in which a lady, who usually
addresses her husband with the familiar _tu_, suddenly starts
calling him _usted_ and the accompanying notes explain that this
is because she's angry with him.
Titles confer distance. Different cultures differ on how much
distance they want or need.
But "using a title" or "not using a title" is only a small facet
of what I was originally talking about, which is the idea some
people have that everyone should have his/her rank clearly marked
*so that they can suck up to their superiors and snub their
inferiors,* and, again, trust me: for them, that's what it's
about.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
(Titles? Who knows? Who cares?)
Dorothy J Heydt
Michael Houghton <her...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>
>The practice is not that new. The first one I recall was Dafydd ap Gwystl,
>which was five years ago.
>Note also that the cap of maintenance has long been reserved as regalia
>for Pelicans.
I believe that way back in AS single-digits the COA decided on caps
of maintenance for Laurels and Pelicans, mostly because we didn't
know any better. As has been pointed out, they are WAY WAY out
of period. Possibly because of that, I never heard of anybody,
Pelican or whatever, using one until just now.
Cynthia Virtue
As a side note, in other forums at other times, folks have made the
mistake that Caps of Maintenance = Robin Hood Hat (with the point
pointing backwards.) This is not so; there are a few similarities,
particularly if you're looking at a 2-dimensional rendering, but don't
be fooled.
I can dig up my archives on the subject if needed.
Regards,
one of the hat mavens of the SCA,
Cynthia du Pre Argent
--
Has email to me bounced back to you? I've got weird ISP problems that
will probably clear up by Monday. If you need to reach me, use
cvi...@ns.thibault.org instead of the shorter form.
Anthony J. Bryant
> It's Interkingdom Anthropology again, you see; in the West we are
> much less formal and first-name each other a lot more often,
> generally with the exception of Court.
Sometimes not even there. <G> Ah, I miss the West sometimes.
Maybe I should look into Berkeley for the PhD...
>
> That is because you are a nice fellow who has no interest in
> finding out that somebody ranks below you so that you can look
> down your long icy nose at him.
>
> (A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
> the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
> I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
I remember the prince from Trimaris (when it was a property of Meridies)
one Pennsic, wearing his chain, belt, spurs, coronet... every dangly he
had. This, he never ever did before. Someone asked him why. He put on a
sheepish and forlorn expression and whined, "So people won't spit on me
when they go by..."
Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
this.
> Titles confer distance. Different cultures differ on how much
> distance they want or need.
Excellent observation, and a very good point!!
BTW, Dorothy, did you know that when this message was spell-checked, the
name (Heydt) was flagged and the spell-checker suggests "heyday"? Cool!
Effingham
StrangeGirl
babble in a vain attempt to be heard:
>Maybe I should look into Berkeley for the PhD...
<wry>
Only if you want to spend more for housing than for tuition...
</wry>
Grew up there, loved it, couldn't afford to stay, wish I could afford
to go back.
Margery
"I dress funny professionally."
Hold the spam to reply. TechnoSystem
StrangeGirl: http://strangegirl.50megs.com
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! Herveus wrote:
> ...plain chains are reserved to Knights alone. De jure, the concept of
> "squire chains" or "fealty chains" is not permitted.
Quite correct. And it proves that when Society law fails to meet the needs
of the populace, the populace quite properly ignores it and waits for the
law to catch up with reality.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! Dorothea wrote:
> I've already mentioned the Eastern Baroness who was profoundly shocked by
> Western Baronial coronets without pearls
How odd. There are any number of Eastern barons & baronesses who wear
coronets without pearls.
She wrote elsewhere:
> ...in the West we are much less formal and first-name each other a lot
> more often, generally with the exception of Court.
A lot more often than whom? In the places I've been, it was a very rare &
odd person who insisted on using someone's titles all the time.
Tanya Guptill
> (A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
> the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
> I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
That was me. I was privileged to be in Queen Groa's retinue when the An
Tirian court when to Pennsic this summer. Her Majesty would often go
incognita, without regalia, baldrics for the retinue, court garb, etc. so
she could enjoy her first Pennsic without the burdens of being on constant
display and duty. One day while I thought Her Majesty was napping, I went
to take pictures of King Davin in the field battle. I almost tripped
across the Queen of An Tir, incognita, sitting on a hay bale and watching
the action. Groa is a much more gracious person than I, and was careful to
rise and curtsey to any person wearing a coronet that walked by, as she had
been doing during our travels throughout the site. I didn't understand at
first why our Queen would do this, until she kindly explained to me that
each one of those people were worthy of respect, and were wearing the badge
of their accomplishments, which is also worthy of respect. Many of the
peers who passed by would smugly smile and cooly nod as they received
Groa's curtsey (if they acknowledged her at all). I started following her
good example, and realized that no matter how someone receives it, giving
respect and courtesy enriches the giver.
Remember I told you Groa was more gracious than I? Well, I am so evil that
I will admit one of the high points of the event was watching one of the
most glacially smug peers walk by as the Crowned Heads were lined up to
process into Grand Court. (annoyingly graphics intense page of pics at
http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/public1.htm). She took one look at Groa,
magnificent in her regalia, and visibly paled. When the peer asked one in
our group who that was, and she was politely informed it was the Queen of
An Tir, she practically fled. Groa would never have done anything to make
that poor lady uncomfortable, but what the lady didn't remember, and what I
had to learn from my Queen, was that we should always be courteous to all
people, regardless of whether they are wearing a circlet with pearls the
size of ping pong balls, or sitting on a hay bale in a field in common garb
with no make up.
Mira Silverlock McKendrick
Brucianna
> *Of course* I treat people differently based on their rank. I call
> Willow "Your Grace", and I call Aislinn "Mistress Aislinn", and I call
> the person with the kingdom's newest Award of Arms "Lady Y". That's
> "treating her differently". I reject the implicit assumption that
> showing different treatment automatically implies lack of courtesy or
> respect.
I've got one problem with lords and ladies and calling people by their
titles or not.
I'm very new to SCA, been in for slightly over a year, but my local
canton isn't very local and I'm a college student.
My boyfriend, and a whole lot of people that I'm friends or
acquaintances with because of him are really really long time SCA. He's
never gone past having an AoA and doesn't seem inclined to do so.
So I got taken around and introduced to all these various Barons and
Baronesses and Knights and Lords and Ladies and Laurels and a Duke and
PeliLaurels and high kingdom muckety-mucks of various kingdoms. And I
get introduced to them mostly by nicknames.
People who I've heard stories told about because they've done all
sorts of cool types of things - and I've got no clue what to refer to
all of them as!
James of the Lake
wrote:
[big snip of great stuff]
> As for the concept of offending anybody by appearing to be what
> you're not, you need to realize, first, that anyone who would be
> *offended* by somebody wearing the wrong hat is a snob whose
> opinion should be discounted; second, that you may as well not go
> out of your way to cross such a person's path; third, that it is
> a good thing to avoid confusing people.
>
> And therefore, fourth, it's a good idea to find out what your
> native Kingdom's rules are, and go along with them.
I might add that,though the above is very true, if the populace begins
bowing to you and you are not entitled to barony rank or above, you might
consider that you've taken your headgear a bit too far.
James
a herald of Caid.
jo...@ridgecrest.ca.us
James of the Lake
wrote:
[snip]
>
> (A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
> the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
> I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
I recall at least one Baron Blackfox cartoon along this line and the
consequences. (Miss him.)
>
Robin of Gilwell had remarked:
> >Using somebody's correct title shows respect and courtesy -- including
> >using the correct title of people whom you outrank.
>
It may reflect IKA, though Caid is a daughter of the West so shares many
customs, but I generally address people by title at events; it is part of
the fun for me. I simply feel that my persona would do so as a matter of
course -- a Franciscan friar would rank lower than anyone at least in
principle. (Yes, I know, it is a custom of the West (or at least of some
prominent personages resident there) to downplay the persona business, but
I am trying to impart a medieval atmosphere as much as it is reasonably
possible and prudent.
Jay Rudin
> People who I've heard stories told about because they've done all
> sorts of cool types of things - and I've got no clue what to refer to
> all of them as!
"Milord" or "milady" is always correct.
In the late 70s, there was an event where the King of Atenveldt, the
Prince and Princess of Ansteora, and various peers and nobles were
sitting around the fire. A woman walked in with an enormous pot filled
with stew. She yelled, "Get out of my way; I outrank all of you. I'm
the cook."
They moved.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
Wm. Bryan Fountain
agree that the cook ( especially with hot food ) outranks everyone. And if you
dont understand try having an event sometimes without a feast - and people will
start to understand
- No Monarch - We can get along.
- No food - and off to Burger King - Big problem !
Ld Brun Canutteson formerly of Atlantia (Shire of Crannog Mor)
Presently in In the Middle of nowhere -Somewhere in the Middle Kingdom
MKA - Wm. Bryan Fountain
Asst. Professor of Industrial Technology
Sauk Valley Community College
Dixon, IL
JoAnn Abbott
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <389B390D...@indiana.edu>...
>
>Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
>events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
>is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
>"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
>this.
>
Reminds me of the person swinging a "dead cat" around in front of the barn,
announcing that you couldn't swing a dead cat at Pennsic without hitting a
peer........
He was kinda fun to watch, in fact
Lady JoAnna S.T.
JoAnn Abbott
Arval d'Espas Nord wrote in message <87fge8$b78$1...@panix5.panix.com>...
>
>Greetings from Arval! Herveus wrote:
>
>> ...plain chains are reserved to Knights alone. De jure, the concept of
>> "squire chains" or "fealty chains" is not permitted.
>
>Quite correct. And it proves that when Society law fails to meet the needs
>of the populace, the populace quite properly ignores it and waits for the
>law to catch up with reality.
>
>Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
>
Query: are you saying that there should be or should not be squire chains?
Because I vote no! to the idea. My personna is a 1540's German lady, upper
middle class, and big chunky gold chains are shown in almost every painting
of ladies at the time. I know I can't wear the gold chains, so I wear
silver instead. Don't take away my silver chain! Pleeeease!
Lady JoAnna S.T.
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
co...@clark.net (Corun MacAnndra) wrote:
>
> In Atlantia a new tradition is starting up among the Pelicans, that being
> the cap of maintenance. ...
My favorite one uses the 'Scoop' Bennie Babie.
Sargent Hroullag (Ralg) Nilsen OP (who often wears a Scoop mini-Bennie
Babie on a hangmans knot)
--
Ralph Lindberg personal email n7...@amsat.org
RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv
If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is
David Friedman
> Dorothea wrote:
...
> > ...in the West we are much less formal and first-name each other a lot
> > more often, generally with the exception of Court.
>
> A lot more often than whom? In the places I've been, it was a very rare
> &
> odd person who insisted on using someone's titles all the time.
As I have suggested before, a lot of this may be selective perception.
Suppose you are an Westerner attending Pennsic. Two dukes walk by,
neither of whom you, being a foreigner, recognize. One is wearing fancy
clothes and a coronet, the other a tunic and a leather belt. You
conclude that one duke has walked by, and that all dukes in the East and
the Middle wear fancy clothes and coronets all the time.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
David Friedman
wearing silver chains something over twenty years ago. Patri preferred
silver for aesthetic reasons, I preferred it because I believed (I think
mistakenly) that it was more consistent with Islamic law than gold, and
I'm not sure what Asbjorn's reasons were. Of course, there was the
further advantage that if we had "gold" chains they would have been
brass, or at best gold plated, whereas our silver chains were silver.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Anthony J. Bryant
> In article <389B390D...@indiana.edu>,
> Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
>
> >Maybe I should look into Berkeley for the PhD...
>
> YES!!
LOL! I appreciate that you wouldn't mind seeing me "back home." (I really *do*
miss seeing your and Hal's smiling faces...). Maybe I'll have to look into
this thing. I fear my books and stuff have made me outgrow Eilis's Youth
Hostel for Hostile Youth... <G>
>
> >Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
> >events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
> >is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
> >"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
> >this.
>
> I believe this is the case. For most people in the Pennsic-going
> Kingdoms (which we may roughly equate with those east of the
> Rockies, funny thing about that), Pennsic is *THE* social event
> of the year, the one at which you want to put on the dog if you
> ever do.
There's a picture; swing a dead cat and hit peers who've put on a dog. <G>
>
> Kind of like Western Twelfth Night, only bigger and longer--and with mud.
Now there's a description I love. "Like Twelfth Night, but with mud"
Effingham
Anthony J. Bryant
>
>
> Oh, we've been saying that for years. "Welcome to the Mists:
> swing a cat, hit a Peer." Or alternatively, "Swing a Peer, hit a
> cat."
Hey, I was at that party...
Effingham
Anthony J. Bryant
> couldn't afford to stay, wish I could afford
> to go back.
Now there is a familiar and excellent point....
Effingham
Betsy Marshall
>
> (major snippage to save the pixels)
>
> Digression on the Stealth Peers of the West
>
>
>
> Not all Western Peers are stealth Peers, and not all stealth
> Peers are Western. But the distribution definitely tends that
> way.
>
> This custom has been known to upset some people--not so much so
> in the West, where we are very laid-back about rank and titles
> and we first-name each other a lot--and occasionally you hear the
> complaint, "But I didn't *know* she was a Duchess, she wasn't
> wearing her regalia. It isn't fair! How can I show her proper
> respect when I don't know her rank? People shouldn't do
> deceptive things like that!"
I personally like to address my friends and
acquaintances by their title the first time I see
them each day, to show respect for their
achievements, then first/use names for the rest of
the day, because they are my friends, and titles
again only for formal situations(court, summonses,
etc). The few who prefer to be addressed by their
titles at all times are known and heededtho' this
gets chancy at some events when certain types of
peers outnumber the gentry- call out to "Your
Grace!" and have five people turn, not including
the one you were addressing.
Just my $.02!
Betsy Marshall, aka
Ker Meran and her twin Pyro
Elfsea, Ansteorra
gun...@my-deja.com
> What are the differences between crowns, cornets and circlets? What
> kind of headpiece can you wear and not offend someone who may think
> you are trting to be someone you're not?
> Are there any guidelines written down somewhere or is this just
> decided according to custom and tradition?
> I live in AEthelmearc but would like info on the SCA as a whole also.
Ansteorran sumptuary laws are spelled out as a part of kingdom law --
for full details see
http://www.ansteorra.org/publications/law/kingdom_law.html
Basically the system is pretty much what has already been described. I
reproduce the general restrictions below for those who delight in
interkingdom anthropology:
Royal Crowns: Crowns or Coronets bearing an Ansteorran Star (a mullet
of 5 lesser and 5 greater points) shall be restricted for use only by
the King, Queen, Crown Prince, Crown Princess, and former Ansteorran
Landed Baron/esses. The use of the Queen's Rose (a rose Sable charged
with a rose Or, thereon a mullet of five greater and five lesser points
Sable) shall be restricted to the Queen. Laurel wreaths surrounding the
Ansteorran Star will be taken to indicate territory, not membership in
the Order of the Laurel.
Ducal Coronets: Only ducal cornets may have strawberry leaves arranged
in groups of 3, one palewise and two fesswise, stems to center and by
extension, any triple-lobed motif that extends above the line of the
top of the coronet.
County Coronets: May be embattled or dovetailed on the top.
Viscounty Coronets: May have one, four, or six semi-circular
projections.
Baronial Coronets, Landed or Not: May be flat-topped, with or without 6
to 12 spherical projections of no more than 1/2 inch diameter extending
from the top of their coronet, OR may use engrailed coronets with up to
six "points" or projections, which may be surmounted by spherical
projections of no more than 1/2 inch diameter, and must have a smoothly
concave outline between each "point", so as to clearly distinguish them
from County coronets. The only difference for landed baron/ess is that
landed coronets may bear the arms of the group they represent. Former
Landed Barons and Baronesses may display an Ansteorran Star upon their
Baronial coronets.
Fillets: Any member of the populace may wear a metal fillet not to
exceed 1/2 inch in width.
Laurel Wreaths: Laurels may wear any non-metallic laurel wreath on
their heads. Metallic laurel wreaths may be worn only if:
The top does not follow any specific form listed above for coronets and
only the wreath itself is metallic (no metal background or framework),
with the proviso that it must be open at least two inches in the front,
and that the leaves be green, or decorated with significant amounts of
green detail. NOTE: several of us Ansteorran Laurels have had metallic
Laurel wreaths of various contruction, none with green leaves, and no
one was ever confused.
::GUNNORA::
Gunnora Hallakarva, OL
Ansteorra
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
James of the Lake
<br...@washcoll.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I've got one problem with lords and ladies and calling people by their
> titles or not.
>
[snip]
> People who I've heard stories told about because they've done all
> sorts of cool types of things - and I've got no clue what to refer to
> all of them as!
My lady,
It is really fairly simple, just curtsey and use "your Excellency" toward
anyone wearing a brass hat and you cannot go too wrong. (This formally
covers baronies, viscounties and county honors.) If you happen to spot
strawberry leaves on the hat (whether embattled or crennelated or not),
the honorific is "your Grace". If the hat appears to be grander (though
you can be fooled by the coronets of some landed barons and baronesses),
the honorific is likely "your Highness" or "your Majesty". Unfortunately,
the royal crowns must be memorized or the status of the worthies inferred
from the presence and/or number of retainers (though landed
baron/baronesses may have retainers trailing along, too and some,
especially male, royals go around unattended. However, you can usually
take a clue from the actions of those around you.
The bottom line is that use of "your Excellency" gets the point across
that you are attempting to honor the rank (if not the person) well
enough. Any correction will surely be a gentle one as befits the holder.
Works for me anyway,
James
who thinks trying to figure out the station of the hat wearer beforehand
is kinda fun.
Dorothy J Heydt
James of the Lake <jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>> (A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
>> the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
>> I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
>
>I recall at least one Baron Blackfox cartoon along this line and the
>consequences. (Miss him.)
Oh, gosh, I missed that one, and it always seemed to me an ideal
topic for his attention. Can you describe it for me?
Dorothy J Heydt
>Maybe I should look into Berkeley for the PhD...
YES!!
>Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
>events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
>is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
>"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
>this.
I believe this is the case. For most people in the Pennsic-going
Kingdoms (which we may roughly equate with those east of the
Rockies, funny thing about that), Pennsic is *THE* social event
of the year, the one at which you want to put on the dog if you
ever do.
Kind of like Western Twelfth Night, only bigger and longer--and with mud.
>BTW, Dorothy, did you know that when this message was spell-checked, the
>name (Heydt) was flagged and the spell-checker suggests "heyday"? Cool!
Oh, heck, that's nothing, I used to work for a scientist named
Cozzarelli, and (until I monkeyed with its dictionary) the office
spellchecker wanted to change it to "Mozzarella."
Dorothy J Heydt
>anyone wearing a brass hat and you cannot go too wrong. (This formally
>covers baronies, viscounties and county honors.)
If brass is restricted to coronets of rank in your Kingdom.
Otherwise you're going to call a fair number of people by the
wrong vocative.
As I've said a few times, there are these things to keep in mind:
(A) a lot of this stuff is Kingdom-specific, so it's worth your
while to learn what's customary where you live; and (B) because
we are all lords and ladies, "milord" and "milady" is sufficient
for ANYBODY.
Even the King, should you meet him in the privy line without his
crown, in a ratty bathrobe, at 7 am. Sunday morning, and don't
twig to who he is.
> James
>who thinks trying to figure out the station of the hat wearer beforehand
>is kinda fun.
Next-to-impossible in the West, where most people who have hats
don't wear them; see my previous post. On the other hand, nobody
expects you to know.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
James of the Lake <jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>I might add that,though the above is very true, if the populace begins
>bowing to you and you are not entitled to barony rank or above, you might
>consider that you've taken your headgear a bit too far.
I bow (slightly) to everyone I make eye contact with as I walk
along the path. If I need to address them and don't know them, I
say "milord" or "milady." If I know them, I use their names or
nicknames. If I know them and don't remember their names
(entirely too often as I grow older), I say "you". It seems to
work.
Dorothy J Heydt
JoAnn Abbott <jo...@theriver.com> wrote:
>
>Reminds me of the person swinging a "dead cat" around in front of the barn,
>announcing that you couldn't swing a dead cat at Pennsic without hitting a
>peer........
Oh, we've been saying that for years. "Welcome to the Mists:
swing a cat, hit a Peer." Or alternatively, "Swing a Peer, hit a
cat."
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
James of the Lake
wrote:
> In article <jotl-04020...@pm046.ridgenet.net>,
> James of the Lake <jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >> (A lady from An Tir just sent me email about what happened when
> >> the Queen of An Tir went to Pennsic and dressed down--and I find
> >> I've deleted it. If she were to post it here, it would be nice.)
> >
> >I recall at least one Baron Blackfox cartoon along this line and the
> >consequences. (Miss him.)
>
> Oh, gosh, I missed that one, and it always seemed to me an ideal
> topic for his attention. Can you describe it for me?
Something about a bedecked Duke (a pompous lion, of course) berating a
little girl for not recognizing his exhalted rank. Then the Princess's
guards came arond the corner and asked her Highness whether this gentle
was troubling her. Seems like the Princess was rather polite about the
whole thing (she was wearing a coronet, I think) and the deflated Duke
slunk away rather sheepishly.
_Warthaven_ was generally pretty good about ragging those who take their
rank a bit too seriously, IIRC. Seems like "Lady Tudor Glitz" (perhaps
patterned after Lady Laurel Seamchecker) was one of William's characters
as well.
James of the Lake
wrote:
>
> > James
> >who thinks trying to figure out the station of the hat wearer beforehand
> >is kinda fun.
>
> Next-to-impossible in the West, where most people who have hats
> don't wear them; see my previous post. On the other hand, nobody
> expects you to know.
Well... Of course, if the hat is not visible, then I need not bother... ;-)
PS I was a bit incautios and let a bit of jargon slip in; I appologize to
the person I was actually replying to. As Mistress Dorothea doubtless
knows "brass hat" is a rather irreverant term for anyone wearing something
fancier than a simple circlet, not necessarily restricted to headgear made
of brass. (It may also refer to a person that likes to throw his/her rank
around a bit.) jotl
David Friedman
> As I've said a few times, there are these things to keep in mind:
> (A) a lot of this stuff is Kingdom-specific, so it's worth your
> while to learn what's customary where you live; and (B) because
> we are all lords and ladies, "milord" and "milady" is sufficient
> for ANYBODY.
There are lots of alternatives. "Gentle sir." "Good my lord." "Madame"
(originally the French for "my lady"). ...
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Cynthia Virtue
> >Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
> >events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
> >is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
> >"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
> >this.
When I was taking Medieval Lit in college, one thing that came up time
and time again is that traveling or visiting nobles were dressed the
fanciest they could. Many texts carry descriptions, paragraphs long,
that talk about the clothing, the retinue, etc. As Effingham mentions
of Pennsic, the reason is that the fancier you're dressed, the higher
your station is indicated to people that don't know you; so in this
aspect, we're reproducing medieval custom, seemingly inadvertently.
Back when they were running those ads on TV that implied you'd get
excellent treatment because you carried an Amex card, we expressed it as
"fancy clothes were the medieval Amex card."
As an aside, the well-respected Mistress Dorothea mentions that the West
often doesn't get very fancy, but others who have not visited the West
should know that there are a lot of variations within the West. The
shire I was in, when I was in the West, did enjoy getting fancy, even at
camping events. InTRA-Kingdom-Anthro.
Cynthia du Pre Argent
--
I've got weird ISP problems that will probably clear up by Monday. If
you need to reach me, use cvi...@ns.thibault.org or instead of the
shorter form.
Nomad in Starkhafn
wrote:
>Digression on the Stealth Peers of the West
>
>A recurring element in the West is the "stealth coronet" or other
>"stealth regalia" worn by the "stealth Peer." The West has no
>sumptuary laws except those set down by Corpora (white belts for
>knights, etc.), but we have a few sumptuary *customs* that are
>maybe more powerful than laws, and the most important is "Don't put
>on the dog," don't show off, don't dress fancy, don't wear regalia
>except maybe for court if then, unless it's something low-key like
>a dirty worn knight's belt and length of tarnished lamp chain.
>
> (Most of our major events are camping events in rough country anyway,
> and fine clothing would soon be ruined. Exceptions are made for
> our relatively few indoor events, and Twelfth Night Coronation is
> the opportunity to dress very fine in the garments you've been
> working on all year.
>
> (The one time I got to Pennsic, I was amazed to see many people
> tromping around in the mud and dust in expensive, glittery finery
> which must soon have gotten ruined, although I realized that (a)
> Pennsic is the biggest social event of the year for them and they
> wanted to show off and (b) since most or all of their other events
> are indoor events, indoor clothing is what they mostly have.)
>
>The archetypal example of the "stealth Peer" is Leticia de
>Scotia, "the stealth Duchess." She always dresses in Normans,
>which become her slender figure very well, and she wears those
>round veils. You just about have to have a circlet to hold the
>veil on, so she has a little silver circlet. If you get real
>close, you discover that there are little clusters of strawberry
>leaves on it, each cluster about the size of a dime.
>
>Katherine of Bristol, both a Viscountess and a Pelican, has a stealth
>Pelican coronet with one little roundel on it marked with the Pelican,
>also about the size of a dime.
>
>I have a silver Celtic cross with a laurel wreath engraved in the
>ring and a tiny little Pelican in the center, rather smaller than
>a dime, about the size of a shirt button. You have to get quite
>close to realize what it is.
>
> (So it also surprised me to see Court Baron[esse]s going about
> at Pennsic wearing coronets with pearls the size of walnuts.)
>
>Not all Western Peers are stealth Peers, and not all stealth
>Peers are Western. But the distribution definitely tends that
>way.
>
>This custom has been known to upset some people--not so much so
>in the West, where we are very laid-back about rank and titles
>and we first-name each other a lot--and occasionally you hear the
>complaint, "But I didn't *know* she was a Duchess, she wasn't
>wearing her regalia. It isn't fair! How can I show her proper
>respect when I don't know her rank? People shouldn't do
>deceptive things like that!"
>
>To which the obvious answer is, "You mean you'd treat someone
>differently if you knew she ranked you? Differently from the way
>you'd treat her if you knew you ranked her? For shame! We are
>ALL lords and ladies here, and all should be treated with
>courtesy and respect."
>
>End digression....
Well that certainly is boring. I would LOVE to see peers dress up in
all their finery as often as possible. Of course I doubt I'll ever BE
a peer myself. Show off! It's PERIOD!!!!!! :-) Besides, anyone who
picks on you for showing off is just jealous that they don't have
stuff that's as nice. <<GRIN>> Now I'm being kind of sarcastic but I
definitely would love to see peers in their finery, very much!
Nomad/Michael
Las Vegas, NV
Barony of Starkhafn, Kingdom of Caid
RenScribe
own and hope it's enough to get them through. Some personas are very dressed up
all of the time because it's what they like to wear. Other folks prefer
T-tunics most of the time and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into
court garb.
Just like you shouldn't judge a book by the cover, don't judge the person by
the garb. Treat everyone with respect and you'll never be embarassed because
you snubbed the Princess in the merchant area or jumped in front of a Duke on
the battlefield yelling 'I'll get this one, he's too big for you"
Above all, remember this is what we do for fun. Anyone who takes rank too
seriously is taking the game too seriously. All wearing a coronet, or even a
circlet to the mall will get you is funny looks.
Unless you can convince Barnes and Noble to give you a discount ;-)
Eibhlin
Dorothy J Heydt
Cynthia Virtue <cvi...@thibault.org> wrote:
>
>...there are a lot of variations within the West. The
>shire I was in, when I was in the West, did enjoy getting fancy, even at
>camping events. InTRA-Kingdom-Anthro.
Oh, quite true. And to counterbalance the "stealth Duchess" we
have the "flash Duchess," Duquesa Juana Isabella de Montoya y
Ramirez (ay ay ay), who goes about in the unlikeliest situations
wearing the most gorgeous Spanish Ren clothing. She appears as
an iridescent pigeon among all the practical mourning doves.
RMorrisson
There was a guy around here (Debatable Lands) a few years ago who went to
fighter practices wearing all the accoutrements (belt, chain, spurs, other
peerage dangly, etc.) Apparently the first time he went he hadn't, and got
treated as any other newly-arrived out-of-town fighter type would have been --
as new and different, but nothing special (i.e., the jerk had his ego wounded).
I heard that he later moved up to Carolingia (mka what is often referred to as
"The People's Republic of Cambridge"), and showed up for a fighter practice
with all the accoutrements on -- and got treated pretty much as he had down
here *without* them! (Carolingia is another place where you can't swing a cat
without hitting a peer -- when I was in Aschehyrst, I was one of the few
*non*-peers in the canton.)
AEthelmearc *almost* had a whole bunch of sumptuary laws enacted, back when it
was a principality. A lot of people, myself included, sort of stomped on the
Heir (he wasn't Prince yet) who proposed them, and apparently they never
actually got brought up for discussion at Curia. A copy of the proposed
changes somehow made its way up to the Buttery New Year's Eve Party that year,
and various people (such as Duke Cariadoc and Duke Vissevald) were let loose on
it. The comments (snarky and otherwise) made for great amusement value for the
rest of us.
Lady Myfanwy ferch Rhiannon
mka Ruth Morrisson
RMorr...@aol.com
Dorothy J Heydt
James of the Lake <jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>
>_Warthaven_ was generally pretty good about ragging those who take their
>rank a bit too seriously, IIRC. Seems like "Lady Tudor Glitz" (perhaps
>patterned after Lady Laurel Seamchecker) was one of William's characters
>as well.
No, Lady TG is the work of Bronwen Jourdemaine and Veleda of
Isenfir, who still bring out a volume occasionally. The
characters visited each other's milieus, though. Lady TG visited
Warthaven at least once and I *think* you'll find the Fox in one
or two TG sequences.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nomad in Starkhafn <sirnomad...@aol.com> wrote:
>Well that certainly is boring. I would LOVE to see peers dress up in
>all their finery as often as possible.
>...Show off! It's PERIOD!!!!!! :-)
In period, people who were rich enough to wear finery didn't have
to pitch camp, haul gear over a muddy field, cook over an open fire,
or even trail their finery in the dust.
Besides, anyone who
>picks on you for showing off is just jealous that they don't have
>stuff that's as nice.
Oh, nobody will pick on you for showing off. They may tut-tut
over the wasted expense and time you put into making a gorgeous
outfit that then gets ruined under primitive camping conditions.
Dorothy J Heydt
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>Suppose you are an Westerner attending Pennsic. Two dukes walk by,
>neither of whom you, being a foreigner, recognize. One is wearing fancy
>clothes and a coronet, the other a tunic and a leather belt. You
>conclude that one duke has walked by, and that all dukes in the East and
>the Middle wear fancy clothes and coronets all the time.
My eyes being what they are, I probably have not even seen the
strawberry leaves on the coronet. I may not even have made out
the coronet, unless is has those pearls the size of walnuts. All I
noticed was a much higher *percentage* of the total population
wearing finery while walking around in the mud.
Dorothy J Heydt
RenScribe <rens...@aol.com> wrote:
>Another reason folks dress up at Pennsic is they take every piece of garb they
>own and hope it's enough to get them through.
Really? The one time I went to Pennsic I had, let's see, one set
of warm clothing (gown and undergown) which I never wore the
whole time I was there, two lightweight undergowns and two
lightweight overgowns. I wore them the whole ten days.
I also carried the regalia of the Bard of the Mists, which I was
at the time: a cloak, a baldric, and a staff. Everything fit
into the duffle.
I don't think we're talking Interkingdom Anthropology at this
point, nor yet Pennsic as distinguished from all other events in
the world. I think we're now talking individual ideas of how
many clothes are enough. I know a Western lady, one who dresses
down, too, who will take to a weekend event about ten Norman
gowns not counting cloaks and underwear. (To the same event I,
at the other end of the scale, will bring one overgown and two
undergowns and one, maybe two veils.)
>Some personas are very dressed up
>all of the time because it's what they like to wear.
True.
>Other folks prefer
>T-tunics most of the time and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into
>court garb.
Also true. I am thinking of one very venerable old-time Westie
who actually owns several tunics, but they all look alike, none
of them fancy, and he wears them to everything from Twelfth Night
on down.
>Just like you shouldn't judge a book by the cover, don't judge the person by
>the garb. Treat everyone with respect....
This is what we have all been saying all along.
EternalSalmissra
>topic for his attention. Can you describe it for me?
>
I was recently out with one of our local Viscountess' who has been playing for
sometime. She shared a cartoon with us regarding a young girl and a Duke. It
went something like this:
Duke (looking down his nose at the girl): Young lady, in _MY_ Kingdom, little
girls are taught to curtsy to Dukes!
little girl (looking up at the Duke with a sweet expression)):
My lord Duke, in _MY_ Kingdom, Dukes are taught to bow to Princesses.
*grinning* The Princess in question was without Her Crown in the cartoon,
IIRC.
Golda ferch Deiniol
(device in submission, name passed. Yea!)
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run...He hates that!
David Friedman
Heydt) wrote:
> In article <ddfr-C9CE5D.1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>
> >Suppose you are an Westerner attending Pennsic. Two dukes walk by,
> >neither of whom you, being a foreigner, recognize. One is wearing fancy
> >clothes and a coronet, the other a tunic and a leather belt. You
> >conclude that one duke has walked by, and that all dukes in the East and
> >the Middle wear fancy clothes and coronets all the time.
>
> My eyes being what they are, I probably have not even seen the
> strawberry leaves on the coronet. I may not even have made out
> the coronet, unless is has those pearls the size of walnuts. All I
> noticed was a much higher *percentage* of the total population
> wearing finery while walking around in the mud.
That tells you that people dress up at Pennsic, but it doesn't tell you
that Eastern and Middle peers make more of a point of wearing tokens of
rank than Western peers. It might be true--I don't have a good enough
contemporary sample of the kingdoms to judge--but it doesn't follow from
the evidence offered.
My lady wife suggests that part of the difference is that a much larger
fraction of events in the West are camping events, due to the absence of
winter, hence people have wardrobes more specialized to camping. I
expect that a lot of what people wear at Pennsic consists of garb
intended for indoor events--because they need a week's worth of period
clothes, and that is what most of their period clothes are.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Gretchen M Beck
circle.. by James of the Lake@owens.
> rank a bit too seriously, IIRC. Seems like "Lady Tudor Glitz" (perhaps
> patterned after Lady Laurel Seamchecker) was one of William's characters
> as well.
No, Lady Tudor Glitz is the creation of Bronwyn Joudemaine and Veleda of
Isenfir. Both were friends with William, and there was some crossover
of characters.
By the way, LTG predates Seamchecker.
toodles, margaret
David Friedman
> >Digression on the Stealth Peers of the West
> >
> >A recurring element in the West is the "stealth coronet" or other
> >"stealth regalia" worn by the "stealth Peer."
...
> >I have a silver Celtic cross with a laurel wreath engraved in the
> >ring and a tiny little Pelican in the center, rather smaller than
> >a dime, about the size of a shirt button. You have to get quite
> >close to realize what it is.
...
> >Not all Western Peers are stealth Peers, and not all stealth
> >Peers are Western. But the distribution definitely tends that
> >way.
As you say. My and my Lady Wife's laurel medallions are chrysoprase
disks, about the size of a quarter, into which I engraved a laurel
wreath--quite unnoticeable unless you are very close. I did once make
myself a strawberry leaf turban pin, set with garnets and emeralds, but
I don't actually wear it.
...
> Well that certainly is boring. I would LOVE to see peers dress up in
> all their finery as often as possible. Of course I doubt I'll ever BE
> a peer myself. Show off! It's PERIOD!!!!!! :-)
Showing off is period. The interesting question is whether deliberately
not showing off is period too. The one example I know is a comment by
Ibn Battuta (14th century) about some small kingdom in or near Arabia he
visited where he was struck by the fact that the King dressed just like
other people.
And then, of course, there is al-Rashid wandering around Baghdad
incognito, although that is a somewhat different case. I did once do an
extended incognito when visiting Caid, but that was because I wanted to
find out whether people were treated differently when they didn't have
rank.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
David Friedman
Heydt) wrote:
> In period, people who were rich enough to wear finery didn't have
> to pitch camp, haul gear over a muddy field, cook over an open fire,
> or even trail their finery in the dust.
I'm not sure I agree--consider how popular hunting was as a pastime of
the nobility. Not to mention warfare. The impression I get is that there
were quite a lot of people who were rich enough to wear finery, but not
uncommonly found themselves in conditions rather more primitive than
Pennsic.
And so far as period literature is concerned, it is pretty clear that
the ordinary knight errant didn't have a staff of servants with him
while he wandered around the countryside.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Dorothy J Heydt
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>
>I'm not sure I agree--consider how popular hunting was as a pastime of
>the nobility. Not to mention warfare. The impression I get is that there
>were quite a lot of people who were rich enough to wear finery, but not
>uncommonly found themselves in conditions rather more primitive than
>Pennsic.
>
>And so far as period literature is concerned, it is pretty clear that
>the ordinary knight errant didn't have a staff of servants with him
>while he wandered around the countryside.
And under those conditions, would he have worn fine silks and
embroideries and gone about looking like something out of the
Tres Riches Heures? I find this hard to believe.
Dorothy J Heydt
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>
>I expect that a lot of what people wear at Pennsic consists of garb
>intended for indoor events--because they need a week's worth of period
>clothes, and that is what most of their period clothes are.
This is probably quite true. It also touches on the question of
how much clothing different people consider necessary for an
event of N days, whether N be two, ten, or twenty-one.
There are laundry facilities available at Pennsic, I believe?
With long waiting lines, probably--and a lot of people's court
clothes won't bear machine washing and drying.
When we held the ten-day Beltane in the West in AS 25, some of us
did laundry on site. I actually had a washtub, a corrugated
washboard, and a clothesline. But it was heavy work, and I'm not
very strong. Several days into the event there were some
expeditions into town to visit the laundromat.
Zebee Johnstone
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>When we held the ten-day Beltane in the West in AS 25, some of us
>did laundry on site. I actually had a washtub, a corrugated
>washboard, and a clothesline. But it was heavy work, and I'm not
>very strong. Several days into the event there were some
>expeditions into town to visit the laundromat.
This year will be the first 7 day Rowany Festival for a
very long time.
The previous one was in a much less complex age :) Fewer
people (maybe 1/3rd) and most just had t-tunics. I don't
think anyone bothered to wash clothes.
Be interesting to see if anyone does this
year!
Silfren
--
Zebee Johnstone (ze...@zip.com.au)
Proud holder of aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"You don't own an Italian motorcycle
- you merely have the privilege of paying its bills."
Hasoferet
(with digressions)
>From: djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>
>>And so far as period literature is concerned, it is pretty clear that
>>the ordinary knight errant didn't have a staff of servants with him
>>while he wandered around the countryside.
>
>And under those conditions, would he have worn fine silks and
>embroideries and gone about looking like something out of the
>Tres Riches Heures? I find this hard to believe.
'Course not. The way it works is, you ride out from Camelot, pennant snapping,
looking spiffy, wearing a hard-wearing t-tunic under your metal layers, and
with a spare one tucked under the saddle. You wear these for several months,
only washing them inadvertantly when knocked down in a ford. If you're asked to
stay overnight at someone else's castle, you get a hot bath before dinner, and
while the lady of the manor is scrubbing you down for dear life, her maid grabs
all the clothes you have and runs off to boil them. You then get put in her
husband's second best gear, and fed. If one of your indestructible t-tunics
comes apart while being boiled, they have to give you another one.
At least that's MY understanding of how this whole knight-errantry business
works. It's not that you don't have people to do for you, it's just that you
only run into them occasionally. Of course, if you are Don Quixote, you
occasionally end up in your undershirt in a laundromat while Sancho runs
everything through on hot with a lot of soap and shrinks it.
Raquel
It doesn't take all kinds,
we just have all kinds.
Malachias Invictus
JoAnn Abbott <jo...@theriver.com> wrote in message
news:FpLm4.10053$my1.2...@news4.giganews.com...
>
> Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <389B390D...@indiana.edu>...
> >
> >Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than
other
> >events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever
that
> >is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
> >"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
> >this.
> >
>
> Reminds me of the person swinging a "dead cat" around in front of the
barn,
> announcing that you couldn't swing a dead cat at Pennsic without hitting a
> peer........
>
>
> Lady JoAnna S.T.
I have a story along these lines, and rather funny. Lord Thomas Bordeaux
was in the middle of explaining to a few new folks how bloody common
Viscounts are in central West (we call them the Gray Faceless Horde in some
circles). To illustrate, he stooped, picked up a dirt clod from the ground,
and stated, "You can't throw a dirt clod in this Kingdom without hitting a
Viscount," tossing the object up and over his shoulder. At that moment,
Jarl (at the time, Viscount) Valgard Stonecleaver came walking into the camp
to visit, and was struck in the shoulder. It took some explaining for him
to realize why everyone was laughing at him. . .
Herr Malachias von Morgenstern, Kapitän der Galatea, Royal Artificer of the
West
Syndic of the Loyal Guild of Saint Erasmus - We put the "Sea" in SCA!
Shire of Danegeld Tor/Principality of Cynagua/Kingdom of the West
capt_malachias <AT> juno.com
Malachias Invictus
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:FpFpr...@kithrup.com...
> > James
> >who thinks trying to figure out the station of the hat wearer beforehand
> >is kinda fun.
>
> Next-to-impossible in the West, where most people who have hats
> don't wear them; see my previous post. On the other hand, nobody
> expects you to know.
>
> Dorothy J. Heydt
Of course, after a year or two in central West, you get to know who just
about everyone is anyway. . .
Malachias Invictus
> In article <jotl-04020...@pm046.ridgenet.net>,
> >bowing to you and you are not entitled to barony rank or above, you might
> >consider that you've taken your headgear a bit too far.
>
> I bow (slightly) to everyone I make eye contact with as I walk
> along the path. If I need to address them and don't know them, I
> say "milord" or "milady." If I know them, I use their names or
> nicknames. If I know them and don't remember their names
> (entirely too often as I grow older), I say "you". It seems to
> work.
>
> Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin
This is pretty much the tack I take as well - I figure that everyone is
entitled to respectful acknowledgement, which from me usually means a nod
and/or a tip of the hat. Folks with their coronets/crowns on (and some even
when "hatless") I mostly address as Your Majesty/Highness/Grace/Excellency
(with a bow), where appropriate, because I enjoy addressing them as such -
it is part of my enjoyment of the game. Of course, I also enjoy learning
the individual Peers' alternate titles and using them. . .and I still cannot
help but address Flieg with Your Grace, even when we are hanging out in our
grubbies and nowhere near an event. . .
Brucianna
JoAnn Abbott wrote:
> Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <389B390D...@indiana.edu>...
> >
> >Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
> >events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
> >is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
> >"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
> >this.
> >Effingham
> >
>
> Reminds me of the person swinging a "dead cat" around in front of the barn,
> announcing that you couldn't swing a dead cat at Pennsic without hitting a
> peer........
>
> He was kinda fun to watch, in fact
Speaking of whom, does anyone know Malachor's contact info?
Brucianna
James of the Lake wrote:
> In article <389B5A09...@washcoll.edu>, Brucianna
> <br...@washcoll.edu> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> > I've got one problem with lords and ladies and calling people by their
> > titles or not.
> >
> [snip]
> > People who I've heard stories told about because they've done all
> > sorts of cool types of things - and I've got no clue what to refer to
> > all of them as!
>
> My lady,
>
> It is really fairly simple, just curtsey and use "your Excellency" toward
> anyone wearing a brass hat and you cannot go too wrong. (This formally
> covers baronies, viscounties and county honors.) If you happen to spot
> strawberry leaves on the hat (whether embattled or crennelated or not),
> the honorific is "your Grace". If the hat appears to be grander (though
> you can be fooled by the coronets of some landed barons and baronesses),
> the honorific is likely "your Highness" or "your Majesty". Unfortunately,
> the royal crowns must be memorized or the status of the worthies inferred
> from the presence and/or number of retainers (though landed
> baron/baronesses may have retainers trailing along, too and some,
> especially male, royals go around unattended. However, you can usually
> take a clue from the actions of those around you.
>
> The bottom line is that use of "your Excellency" gets the point across
> that you are attempting to honor the rank (if not the person) well
> enough. Any correction will surely be a gentle one as befits the holder.
I was thinking more along the lines when referring to them in the third
person. Knowing darn well that this person is someone important and not
knowing what name to call them by since all my campmates are using a nickname
for them, my mundane friends who I'm not camping with are using a first name,
and it seems that everyone else is calling them Lady Mistress Name or Duke
Sir Name.
David Friedman
Heydt) wrote:
> In article <ddfr-17475F.1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
> David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
> >
> >I'm not sure I agree--consider how popular hunting was as a pastime of
> >the nobility. Not to mention warfare. The impression I get is that there
> >were quite a lot of people who were rich enough to wear finery, but not
> >uncommonly found themselves in conditions rather more primitive than
> >Pennsic.
> >
> >And so far as period literature is concerned, it is pretty clear that
> >the ordinary knight errant didn't have a staff of servants with him
> >while he wandered around the countryside.
>
> And under those conditions, would he have worn fine silks and
> embroideries and gone about looking like something out of the
> Tres Riches Heures? I find this hard to believe.
1. What you had written, and I was questioning, was:
> In period, people who were rich enough to wear finery didn't have
> to pitch camp, haul gear over a muddy field, cook over an open fire,
> or even trail their finery in the dust.
That is separate from the question of whether people who were rich
enough to wear finery actually wore finery under messy circumstances.
2. Unless I am mistaken, at least one of the pictures in the Tres Riches
Heures is of people going hunting, or perhaps hawking. Of course, it may
be artistic license.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
James of the Lake
[snip]
>
> I was thinking more along the lines when referring to them in the third
> person. Knowing darn well that this person is someone important and not
> knowing what name to call them by since all my campmates are using a nickname
> for them, my mundane friends who I'm not camping with are using a first name,
> and it seems that everyone else is calling them Lady Mistress Name or Duke
> Sir Name.
That is something that you will learn in time. It's really tough to pick
up everyone's names at once; however, if you can remember or jot down
enough of a person's Society name, you can check against the kingdom Order
of Precedence and often determine the full Society name and what awards
they have. OP's are usually available somewhere associated with
heralds/heraldry on the web pages of most of the kingdoms from the
Geography link from www.sca.org; I occasionally check when I send a
missive to that person or one about him or her (like a letter of
recommendation to the Crown, for example) and just wish to be sure of my
facts. Otherwise, just ask the person or someone who knows him/her.
James of the Lake
> This year will be the first 7 day Rowany Festival for a
> very long time.
>
> The previous one was in a much less complex age :) Fewer
> people (maybe 1/3rd) and most just had t-tunics. I don't
> think anyone bothered to wash clothes.
>
> Be interesting to see if anyone does this
> year!
>
> Silfren
A major advantage of being a mendicant friar is that no one expects you to
wash clothes! (Or change clothes either.) ;-)
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Also true. I am thinking of one very venerable old-time Westie
> who actually owns several tunics, but they all look alike, none
> of them fancy, and he wears them to everything from Twelfth Night
> on down.
And how is His Grace doing? <G>
Effingham
Zebee Johnstone
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote:
>
>2. Unless I am mistaken, at least one of the pictures in the Tres Riches
>Heures is of people going hunting, or perhaps hawking. Of course, it may
>be artistic license.
A day trip or a camping trip?
Even today, people find it quite easy to go hunting on horseback
and not get muddy or tear their clothes, and come back to a
nice sit-down dinner in the evening :)
Zebee
McLean1382
<dd...@best.com> writes:
>Showing off is period. The interesting question is whether deliberately
>not showing off is period too.
Joinville, if I remember correctly, commented on how plainly St. Louis dressed,
considering he was King of France. Of course, as a saint, he was something of a
special case, and even so I don't think Joinville entirely approved.
Froissart mentions that the King of France and one of his lords attended the
14th c. jousts at St Inglevert in disguise.
Galleron
Dorothy J Heydt
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
caused "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbr...@indiana.edu> to write:
(snip)
>Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
>events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
>is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
>"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
>this.
Should I mention the time I went to Pennsic IX (back when it was still
pretty much a weekend event between the East and Middle and the
Serengetti was still a cornfield.)
I was walking down the road thinking to myself "this is kind of
interesting, being at an event where *nobody* knows me" and I hear
"Tivar! What are *you* doing here?" from behind me. It was Earl Kevin
Peregrynne, the then-Society Marshal, who I'd met the previous year at
a Board meeting.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Susan Carroll-Clark
>>Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
>>events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
>>is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
>>"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
>>this.
There may be a bit of that going, although I also know an awful lot of Peers
who see Pennsic as the place where they can circulate without being
recognized every ten seconds by someone who just *has* to speak with them.
For every gaudy Peer, there's probably at least one more in stealth mode.
Nicolaa
Ysabelle
(Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>In article <jotl-04020...@pm300.ridgenet.net>,
>James of the Lake <jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>It is really fairly simple, just curtsey and use "your Excellency" toward
>>anyone wearing a brass hat and you cannot go too wrong. (This formally
>>covers baronies, viscounties and county honors.)
>
>If brass is restricted to coronets of rank in your Kingdom.
>
>Otherwise you're going to call a fair number of people by the
>wrong vocative.
>
>As I've said a few times, there are these things to keep in mind:
>(A) a lot of this stuff is Kingdom-specific, so it's worth your
>while to learn what's customary where you live; and (B) because
>we are all lords and ladies, "milord" and "milady" is sufficient
>for ANYBODY.
>
>Even the King, should you meet him in the privy line without his
>crown, in a ratty bathrobe, at 7 am. Sunday morning, and don't
>twig to who he is.
<snip>
Seeing this reminded me of something that happened at my first war (An
Tir/West War)
Around 6am I'm standing in line at the biffies, wrapped in my cloak
trying to keep warm. Comming from the one I'm waiting to use I hear
the most god awful noises (don't they echo wonderfully?). I decide to
politely look the other way when the person emerges, so I don't make
them uncomfortable knowing I heard them. As the gentleman emerges I
see that he has a very fancy coronet/crown on.
Now since this was my second event, I was still trying to learn the
proper way of addressing someone but in a crunch always used what my
friend had told me - if you see a coronet or crown, curtsey and
address them as My Lord/Lady..
So now I've got a problem. Do I politely look the other way and not
make them uncomfortable, or do I show them the proper respect?
I decide to go with the latter and curtesy while saying "Good Morn, My
Lord" hoping that they wouldn't be mad if I used the incorrect title.
Much to my relief he smiled at me, gestured to the biffie he had just
left, and replied "Don't go in there."
To this day I don't know who he was or what his rank was, but I will
always be grateful because he showed me that I do not need to be
scared of that situation (being alone with a peer where I can't learn
his title by hearing someone else say it first).
Ysabelle
An Tir
EXCMairi
>> >Pennsic seems to produce a larger percentage of regalia-wearing than other
>> >events. I think it has a basis in the fact that "at home" (where ever that
>> >is) people know who one is, but at Pennsic there's more need to
>> >"establish" one's bona fides. I'd be interested in learning more about
>> >this.
I think there is also the element of being at a large "international" gathering
where you represent your kingdom, almost like an ambassador of sorts - the
wearing of the regalia is not always so much a personal statement as a
representation of what kingdom, barony, principality, household you are from
(lots of non-hat wearing folks wear a lot of household colors, tabards and
favors at Pennsic, as well).
I personally consider my coronet jewelry, which is never inappropriate or out
of fashion (and of course, I have different styles/metals to go with different
outfits...doesn't everyone??). ; )
(That of course if my flippant answer - in reality, my coronet was put on my
head by my husband - with Their Majesties permission - in front of the Known
World at a Pennsic Great Court - there is great emotional attachment involved,
which is why I almost always do wear it or a version of it).
Mairi
william thomas powers
>pretty much a weekend event between the East and Middle and the
>Serengetti was still a cornfield.)
>
>I was walking down the road thinking to myself "this is kind of
>interesting, being at an event where *nobody* knows me" and I hear
>"Tivar! What are *you* doing here?" from behind me. It was Earl Kevin
>Peregrynne, the then-Society Marshal, who I'd met the previous year at
>a Board meeting.
> -Tivar Moondragon
That has always been one of my joys at Pennsic---running into old
friends from far away that have no business being there. Most of the
times I've been I usually meet folks from kingdom's I used to live in
before I even get through the gate!
It was interesting going to a Drachenwald coronation while on a business
trip to Germany. It was held in a "real"castle (ie still defensable with
wall and gate and outer ward---where the tourney was held and camping
for those with tents!) Wonderfull feast in the courtyard with friendly
folk who *almost* shared a language in common, (they were swedish IIRC)
then a truely medieval moment----sleeping on a stone floor under a table.
(All of the open floor space was claimed and I prefer to sleep where people
can't trip over you in the dark...) As is proverable I made some real
friends while helping to clean up the next day!
wilelm the smith
Corun MacAnndra
>
>In article <FpF4E...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <87f4jn$k6m$1...@saltmine.radix.net>,
>>
>>That may be, but in some Kingdoms they distinguish knights'
>>chains, in gold (or look-alike), from squires' chains, in silver
>>(etc.). Duke Garick von Kopke, who has ruled once over
>>Drachenwald and once over the West*, and whose chain happens to
>>be silver, came to a costume party once wearing his own chain and
>>somebody else's red belt, protraying "a Midrealm Squire."
>>
>I realize that. I chose my words carefully.
>
>De jure, only knights may wear plain chains, whatever the color.
>
>De jure, there is no such thing as a "squire's chain" or a "fealty chain".
>
>Now, you could argue for changing the law, etc. I am only pointing out
>what the official sources say, without suggesting that one should be
>a stick-in-the-mud about it.
By what law? Corpora or Atlantian? If you would cite Atlantian Law then
I quote you section 15.2 wherein it states;
With the exceptions of the traditional symbols of the Peerages,
and the requirements for pre-17th century style, there are no
restrictions of any kind concerning garb in the Kingdom of Atlantia.
Note that it says "Traditional" vs. "Legal" or "as cited by Corpora". In
doing a lookup in Corpora I find no references to chains, regalia or to
sumptuary laws at all. Thus, while it is against Atlantian Law to deviate
from "Tradition" vis-a-vis the wearing of an unadorned chain, it is not
a violation of Corpora overall. Ergo, de jure, the Midrealm tradition is
perfectly valid and the "squire's chain" or "fealty chain" does exist and
does not violate any but Atlantian Law. Whether it violates laws in other
kingdoms I can not say not being familiar with those documents.
Now, if one would say that it would be tacky or inappropriate to wear a
chain and spurs, or a laurel wreath or a pelican in it's piety if one has
not been elevated to any of the three Peerages, then one could make a good
case. However there are no governing policies or laws that I can find in
any official SCA document that says it's illegal in the sense of violating
Corpora, the By Laws or the G&PD.
In service,
Corun
Corun MacAnndra
>Arval d'Espas Nord <mit...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>There are a few Society-wide rules: A coronet ornamented with strawberry
>>leaves may only be worn by nobles of ducal rank. A coronet ornamented with
>>embattlements may only be worn by those of county rank. A coronet
>>ornamented with 6 pearls (balls, regardless of color or material) is
>>reserved for baronial rank, and a coronet with many pearls is reserved for
>>viscounty rank.
>
>Arval, are you *sure* that's Society-wide? In the West at least,
>you may find a few pearls, or six pearls, or whole bunches of
>pearls, or no pearls whatever on Baronial coronets (landed or
>unlanded). And viscomital coronets can look like anything whatever,
>see my previous post.
For some time now I have heard of these "laws" and "rules", however, as
I mentioned in another post in this thread, I have done a search of all
the Official Documents of the SCA that are posted at the SCA central web
site and I could find no references at all to sumptuary laws or regalia
in any form. I think what we have here are a lot of SCA Traditions that,
regardless of their existence in either Law or Historical Reality, are
neither legal nor binding, but only traditions. Things we have done a
certain way for a long enough period of time that we can fool everyone
into thinking it's written as a Law somewhere.
In service,
Corun
Betsy Marshall
>
> In article <FpFpr...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> > As I've said a few times, there are these things to keep in mind:
> > (A) a lot of this stuff is Kingdom-specific, so it's worth your
> > while to learn what's customary where you live; and (B) because
> > we are all lords and ladies, "milord" and "milady" is sufficient
> > for ANYBODY.
>
> (originally the French for "my lady"). ...
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
also, didn't TI have an article on the use of
"your Worship"?
a generic usage of respect from lower to higher,
IIRC...
Betsy
Cynthia Virtue
> For some time now I have heard of these "laws" and "rules", however, as
> I mentioned in another post in this thread, I have done a search of all
> the Official Documents of the SCA that are posted at the SCA central web
> site and I could find no references at all to sumptuary laws or regalia
I believe the physical items or representations (as well as the
heraldic) for chains, spurs, laurel wreaths, and pelicans, are reserved
via the Laurel Sovereign of Arms -- which apparently by definition is a
branch/officer of the corporation, and thus the rulings are official.
So if you add the records of Laurel to your search of official
documents, you'd find them there.
I'm sure others could expand on this.
cv
--
Has email to me bounced back to you? I've got weird ISP problems that
will probably clear up by Monday. If you need to reach me, use
cvi...@ns.thibault.org instead of the shorter form.
Dorothy J Heydt
Betsy Marshall <Be...@mailhost.softwareinnovation.com> wrote:
>
>also, didn't TI have an article on the use of
>"your Worship"?
>a generic usage of respect from lower to higher,
>IIRC...
I certainly don't remember it, though that doesn't prove a great
deal. To me that sounds late-to-out-of-period, Tudor or later,
and rustic. Did somebody see the article who can remember it
distinctly?
Dorothy J Heydt
Corun MacAnndra <co...@clark.net> wrote:
>
>For some time now I have heard of these "laws" and "rules", however, as
>I mentioned in another post in this thread, I have done a search of all
>the Official Documents of the SCA that are posted at the SCA central web
>site and I could find no references at all to sumptuary laws or regalia
>regardless of their existence in either Law or Historical Reality, are
>neither legal nor binding, but only traditions. Things we have done a
>certain way for a long enough period of time that we can fool everyone
>into thinking it's written as a Law somewhere.
More to the point, we can fool ourselves into it.
Thank you for doing the research, Corun, that helps.
God knows, as a Westie I'm familiar with the concept of customs
that are stronger than law, since laws can be change by Royal
fiat. It is when we state "It's always been done this way, so if
not law it's custom with the force of law" and forget to add "IN
MY KINGDOM," that we come to grief. Or bewilderment, say, as we
suddenly discover that what we thought was a Society-wide taboo
is accepted custom somewhere else.
william thomas powers
wearing a kilt "Aye your Laaarrddship"
works surprisingly well
Thomas
Phyllis M. Gilmore
jo...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (James of the Lake) wrote:
> It may reflect IKA, though Caid is a daughter of the West so shares many
> customs, but I generally address people by title at events; it is part of
I was most impressed, a few years back, when a certain gentle, dressed in
quite smashing Elizabethan gear, addressed the King of Caid as "your
grace." It perhaps bucked the general habit in Caid, but was truer to
practice in the period he represented.
Philippa
(Who knows how to greet a queen, but panics when meeting a duchess.)
Dorothy J Heydt
william thomas powers <pow...@cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Well I have two basic formulas: "Yes your Hattedness" and to anyone
>wearing a kilt "Aye your Laaarrddship"
Oh, those are nice.
I remember someone I knew only moderately well calling me "Your
Excellency", which I don't rate, so I explained, "No, I'm not an
Excellency, I'm only a Pelaurel."
To which he answerd, "Oh, excuse me, Your Equivalency."
(Referring back to the time William the Lucky was on the Throne
of the West and tried to get Laurels and Pelicans County rank; but
he didn't succeed....)
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Corun MacAnndra
>Excellency", which I don't rate, so I explained, "No, I'm not an
>Excellency, I'm only a Pelaurel."
>
>To which he answerd, "Oh, excuse me, Your Equivalency."
Heehee. That's cute.
Then there are my friends, Duchess Ysabeau and Earl Laeghare. I can greet
them as Your Excellencies, which works for both, where Your Graces does
not, and is much less clumsy that referring to each by their separate
titles. Of course Ysabeau's sister is the only one who can survive calling
her Gracie.
And with my Pelaurel wife, Yes Dear works just fine. ;-)
In service,
Corun
Member of the Order of the Pilings
"We support our Peers"
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! JoAnna asked me:
> Query: are you saying that there should be or should not be squire chains?
> Because I vote no! to the idea. My personna is a 1540's German lady, upper
> middle class, and big chunky gold chains are shown in almost every painting
> of ladies at the time. I know I can't wear the gold chains, so I wear
> silver instead. Don't take away my silver chain!
It's interesting that you assume that "Squires wear silver chains" will
necessarily mean "No one else may wear silver chains." That's certainly a
common pattern in the Society, that the assignment of a piece of regalia to
some rank includes a prohibition on anyone else wearing it; but it is not
necessary. In particular, it would be completely inappropriate for regalia
for squires, since "squire" is _not_ a rank: It is a complete unofficial
personal relationship that may not be given any official standing
whatsoever.
It's also interesting -- and delightful -- that you feel free to wear a
silver chain where you live. The corporate rule reserves _all_ chains to
knights and only to knights; but you've shown us one more proof that
this sort of corporate rule is never more than an approximate description
of reality in the Society.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! Corun wrote:
> For some time now I have heard of these "laws" and "rules", however, as
> I mentioned in another post in this thread, I have done a search of all
> the Official Documents of the SCA that are posted at the SCA central web
> site and I could find no references at all to sumptuary laws or regalia
> in any form.
That's cause you're looking in the wrong places. The Board assigned to the
Laurel Sovereign of Arms the task of defining Society-wide regalia.
Laurel's rulings in these matters are published in monthly letters to the
College of Arms. In another posting on this thread, I gave the URL of the
web copy of the letter that defined all the standard Society-wide regalia.