Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
White Scarf Anniversary
42 views
Skip to first unread message
Chris Zakes
Mar 10, 2012, 7:32:03 PM3/10/12
to
Fair Greetings,
A third of a century ago, on a cold, wet Saturday night, history was
made. During court at an event called the Tournament of Chivalry, Her
Highness Tessa of the Gardens announced that she and Prince Simonn of
Amber Isle were creating an award to recognize prominent rapier
fighters in the Principality of Ansteorra. That was the beginning of
the Order of the White Scarf, and to the best of my knowledge, it was
the first official recognition of any sort for rapier fighters in the
SCA.
At that time, there were maybe thirty or forty rapier fighters in
Ansteorra, and a few handfuls scattered about the rest of the Known
World. Benign neglect was about the best we could hope for from most
of the powers-that-be and outright hostility was a pretty common
reaction to the presence of rapier fighters.
We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
and Thrust Combat.”
For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
time!” But think about this a little more. Throughout its history, the
White Scarf has always meant “the best of the best” in rapier, and it
has earned a level of respect similar to the peers in many places. But
it’s still a grant-level award, and is only used in twelve of the
nineteen kingdoms of the SCA. If a rapier peerage is set up, then I
see three possibilities.
1. The White Scarf maintains its current precedence as a grant-level
award, but there’s now a peerage-level award that outranks it. We’d no
longer be the best of the best.
2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
problems built into it. Do all existing White Scarves automatically
become peers? (Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
many years? What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
which don’t?
What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf? Do all
the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
become peers too? If not, why not? In Ealdormere the Order of
Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
those for armored combat or archery?
There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
shut down, and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
And, of course, if the White Scarf goes from being the top-level
rapier award to being the top-level rapier award, what has really been
gained? Does having a peerage automatically make you a better fighter,
a better teacher or a more polished courtier than if you just have a
grant?
3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
So take a moment to reflect on where you were and what you were doing
on March 10 AS XIII, and to raise a glass to the folks who started the
Order of the White Scarf.
But while you’re doing that, give some thought to where we are going,
too.
Happy White Scarf Day, everybody!
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
--
It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.
-G.K. Chesterton
A third of a century ago, on a cold, wet Saturday night, history was
made. During court at an event called the Tournament of Chivalry, Her
Highness Tessa of the Gardens announced that she and Prince Simonn of
Amber Isle were creating an award to recognize prominent rapier
fighters in the Principality of Ansteorra. That was the beginning of
the Order of the White Scarf, and to the best of my knowledge, it was
the first official recognition of any sort for rapier fighters in the
SCA.
At that time, there were maybe thirty or forty rapier fighters in
Ansteorra, and a few handfuls scattered about the rest of the Known
World. Benign neglect was about the best we could hope for from most
of the powers-that-be and outright hostility was a pretty common
reaction to the presence of rapier fighters.
We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
and Thrust Combat.”
For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
time!” But think about this a little more. Throughout its history, the
White Scarf has always meant “the best of the best” in rapier, and it
has earned a level of respect similar to the peers in many places. But
it’s still a grant-level award, and is only used in twelve of the
nineteen kingdoms of the SCA. If a rapier peerage is set up, then I
see three possibilities.
1. The White Scarf maintains its current precedence as a grant-level
award, but there’s now a peerage-level award that outranks it. We’d no
longer be the best of the best.
2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
problems built into it. Do all existing White Scarves automatically
become peers? (Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
many years? What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
which don’t?
What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf? Do all
the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
become peers too? If not, why not? In Ealdormere the Order of
Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
those for armored combat or archery?
There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
shut down, and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
And, of course, if the White Scarf goes from being the top-level
rapier award to being the top-level rapier award, what has really been
gained? Does having a peerage automatically make you a better fighter,
a better teacher or a more polished courtier than if you just have a
grant?
3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
So take a moment to reflect on where you were and what you were doing
on March 10 AS XIII, and to raise a glass to the folks who started the
Order of the White Scarf.
But while you’re doing that, give some thought to where we are going,
too.
Happy White Scarf Day, everybody!
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
--
It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.
-G.K. Chesterton
jk
Mar 11, 2012, 2:44:56 PM3/11/12
to
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
>challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
>forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
>potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
>and Thrust Combat.”
>
>For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
>time!”
Not one of them, but it is the "NEW" peerage part I don't like.
>We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
>challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
>forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
>potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
>and Thrust Combat.”
>
>For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
>time!”
>But think about this a little more. Throughout its history, the
>White Scarf has always meant “the best of the best” in rapier, and it
>has earned a level of respect similar to the peers in many places. But
>it’s still a grant-level award, and is only used in twelve of the
>nineteen kingdoms of the SCA. If a rapier peerage is set up, then I
>see three possibilities.
>
>1. The White Scarf maintains its current precedence as a grant-level
>award, but there’s now a peerage-level award that outranks it. We’d no
>longer be the best of the best.
Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
And even among the "best of the best" there is always a "best of the
best of the best".
>
>2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
>problems built into it.
> Do all existing White Scarves automatically
>become peers?
>(Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
>many years?
Yes
>many years?
>What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>which don’t?
No one, if you make the WS a peerage by decree, then it is a peerage,
>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>which don’t?
period. You raise a straw man here.
>
>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
By default, nothing.
>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
> Do all
>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>become peers too?
No, unless they are also made peers by decree.
>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>become peers too?
> If not, why not?
Because :)
Oh you want more??? Because they are not white scarves.
>In Ealdormere the Order of
>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>those for armored combat or archery?
Then CLEARLY it is not the same thing as a WS and should not expect
>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>those for armored combat or archery?
any elevation just because the WS does.
>There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
>and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
>is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
>shut down,
name and insignia. I think there is an out, in that multiple kingdoms
use the same nominal name now. [Although they are probably nominally
different by inclusion of the kingdom name.]
>and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
>allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
Ahhh you younger kingdoms and your (IMO stupid) sumptuary laws
>allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
>
>And, of course, if the White Scarf goes from being the top-level
>rapier award to being the top-level rapier award, what has really been
>gained?
>Does having a peerage automatically make you a better fighter,
>a better teacher or a more polished courtier than if you just have a
>grant?
>
>3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
>peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
>inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
>fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
be no need to close the grant level awards. I suspect there is also
no ABILITY to truly close such orders at the society level. And it is
I believe orders (plural) not order(singular).
>
YMMV
jk
Chris Zakes
Mar 12, 2012, 10:48:30 PM3/12/12
to
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:44:56 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
>>challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
>>forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
>>potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
>>and Thrust Combat.”
>>
>>For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
>>time!”
>
>Not one of them, but it is the "NEW" peerage part I don't like.
>
>>But think about this a little more. Throughout its history, the
>>White Scarf has always meant “the best of the best” in rapier, and it
>>has earned a level of respect similar to the peers in many places. But
>>it’s still a grant-level award, and is only used in twelve of the
>>nineteen kingdoms of the SCA. If a rapier peerage is set up, then I
>>see three possibilities.
>>
>>1. The White Scarf maintains its current precedence as a grant-level
>>award, but there’s now a peerage-level award that outranks it. We’d no
>>longer be the best of the best.
>Baloney.
>Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
>fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
You're missing my point. If the White Scarf becomes just another
caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>We’ve grown a bit since then, but now the White Scarf is facing a new
>>challenge. The SCA Board of Directors has announced that they are
>>forming a committee “focused on developing a set of options for
>>potential implementation of a new peerage for Rapier Combat and/or Cut
>>and Thrust Combat.”
>>
>>For many folks, their initial reaction might be “Hooray! It’s about
>>time!”
>
>Not one of them, but it is the "NEW" peerage part I don't like.
>
>>But think about this a little more. Throughout its history, the
>>White Scarf has always meant “the best of the best” in rapier, and it
>>has earned a level of respect similar to the peers in many places. But
>>it’s still a grant-level award, and is only used in twelve of the
>>nineteen kingdoms of the SCA. If a rapier peerage is set up, then I
>>see three possibilities.
>>
>>1. The White Scarf maintains its current precedence as a grant-level
>>award, but there’s now a peerage-level award that outranks it. We’d no
>>longer be the best of the best.
>Baloney.
>Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
>fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
mid-level award, then that "best of the best" label will, inevitably,
migrate over to the new peerage.
>And even among the "best of the best" there is always a "best of the
>best of the best".
>
>>
>>2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
>>problems built into it.
>Yep, but if it is done that is what should be done.
>
>> Do all existing White Scarves automatically
>>become peers?
>Yes, in that case.
>>(Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
>>many years?
>Yes
event (let alone fought or done any teaching) for fifteen or twenty
years still gets to be a peer? Why?
>>What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
>>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>>which don’t?
>
> No one, if you make the WS a peerage by decree, then it is a peerage,
>period. You raise a straw man here.
>>
>>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
>By default, nothing.
>> Do all
>>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>>become peers too?
>No, unless they are also made peers by decree.
>
>> If not, why not?
>Because :)
>
>
>Oh you want more??? Because they are not white scarves.
Are they somehow not as good as the White Scarves?
>>In Ealdormere the Order of
>>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>>those for armored combat or archery?
>Then CLEARLY it is not the same thing as a WS and should not expect
>any elevation just because the WS does.
holders and against others?
>>There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
>>and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
>>is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
>>shut down,
>No, it actually means that the SCA wide order couldn't use the same
>name and insignia.
(possibly including yourself, judging by your comments here) seem to
think that turning the White Scarf into the proposed rapier peerage is
the way to go. If that happens, then shutting down the grant-level
kingdom orders is a necessary step.
>I think there is an out, in that multiple kingdoms
>use the same nominal name now. [Although they are probably nominally
>different by inclusion of the kingdom name.]
>>and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
>>allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
>Ahhh you younger kingdoms and your (IMO stupid) sumptuary laws
sumptuary law"?
"Younger" kingdoms? Ansteorra will have been a kingdom for 33 years
come June. Where are *you* from?
>>And, of course, if the White Scarf goes from being the top-level
>>rapier award to being the top-level rapier award, what has really been
>>gained?
>
>Damn all.
>
>>Does having a peerage automatically make you a better fighter,
>>a better teacher or a more polished courtier than if you just have a
>>grant?
>>
>>3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
>>peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
>>inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
>>fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
>
>Again a straw man, if a different peerage is made, then there would
>be no need to close the grant level awards.
talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
something different. The phrase I've heard is "We don't want to become
rapier-Centurions." (The Centurions are a grant-level polling order
for armored fighters in Ansteorra--pretty much a stepping stone toward
knighthood, not an end in itself.)
>I suspect there is also no ABILITY to truly close such orders at the society level.
Corpora that really covers how a new peerage order would be made, so
*whatever* happens, the Board is going to have to make some new
policies. Closing an existing order could, concievably, be one of
them.
>And it is I believe orders (plural) not order(singular).
the White Scarf Treaty: "By these our letters we publish and proclaim
our intent to create an order in our kingdoms to be known as the Order
of the White Scarf. We do mutually recognize that this order shall be
chartered in our kingdoms as custom allows. We pledge to honor the
styles and precedence as shall be established by charter..."
http://moondragon.info/wiki/The_White_Scarf_Treaty
So a White Scarf from one kingdom is automatically included in WS
meetings/activities in any other WS kingdom, either as a visitor or
new resident. And if the Board decides to close/upgrade "the Order of
the White Scarf" It's going to affect all twelve WS kingdoms, not just
the original Order in Ansteorra.
jk
Mar 13, 2012, 3:41:14 PM3/13/12
to
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:44:56 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
No it didn't you silly goose, It was a suborbital black helicopter,
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:44:56 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
using microwaves.
>>Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
>>fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
>You're missing my point.
> If the White Scarf becomes just another
>mid-level award, then that "best of the best" label will, inevitably,
>migrate over to the new peerage.
specific peerage level award for an activity.
>>>2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
>>>problems built into it.
>>Yep, but if it is done that is what should be done.
>>
>>> Do all existing White Scarves automatically
>>>become peers?
>>Yes, in that case.
>>>(Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
>>>many years?
>>Yes
>
>So someone who has a White Scarf, but hasn't even *been* to an SCA
>event (let alone fought or done any teaching) for fifteen or twenty
>years still gets to be a peer? Why?
there is NO way to decide "who".
Or put another way, how do YOU know who has or hasn't been to an event
in years?
As well, do we "kick out" other peers who haven't been active??????
>>>What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
>>>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>>>which don’t?
>>
>> No one, if you make the WS a peerage by decree, then it is a peerage,
>>period. You raise a straw man here.
>>>
>>>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
>
>>By default, nothing.
>
>>> Do all
>>>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>>>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>>>become peers too?
>>No, unless they are also made peers by decree.
>>> If not, why not?
>>Because :)
>>Oh you want more??? Because they are not white scarves.
>Okay, why discriminate against the rapier fighters in those kingdoms?
>Are they somehow not as good as the White Scarves?
If the decree includes them then they become peers, if not, then not.
>>>In Ealdormere the Order of
>>>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>>>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>>>those for armored combat or archery?
>
>>Then CLEARLY it is not the same thing as a WS and should not expect
>>any elevation just because the WS does.
>
>But again, why discriminate in favor of some grant-level rapier award
>holders and against others?
If there is no differentiation in the award, then it is NOT a grant
level rapier award, just a grant level award.
>
>>>There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
>>>and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
>>>is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
>>>shut down,
>>No, it actually means that the SCA wide order couldn't use the same
>>name and insignia.
>
>Which, I think, would be more likely. But an awful lot of people
>(possibly including yourself, judging by your comments here) seem to
>think that turning the White Scarf into the proposed rapier peerage is
>the way to go. If that happens, then shutting down the grant-level
>kingdom orders is a necessary step.
>
>
>>I think there is an out, in that multiple kingdoms
>>use the same nominal name now. [Although they are probably nominally
>>different by inclusion of the kingdom name.]
>>>and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
>>>allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
>>Ahhh you younger kingdoms and your (IMO stupid) sumptuary laws
>
>Huh? How is wearing the symbol of your order part of a "stupid
>sumptuary law"?
You miss my point.
>>>There’s also this: SCA heraldic rules won’t allow a grant-level award
>>>and a peerage to use the same name and insignia, so if the new peerage
>>>is called the White Scarf, then the existing Orders would have to be
>>>shut down,
>>No, it actually means that the SCA wide order couldn't use the same
>>name and insignia.
>
>Which, I think, would be more likely. But an awful lot of people
>(possibly including yourself, judging by your comments here) seem to
>think that turning the White Scarf into the proposed rapier peerage is
>the way to go. If that happens, then shutting down the grant-level
>kingdom orders is a necessary step.
>
>
>>I think there is an out, in that multiple kingdoms
>>use the same nominal name now. [Although they are probably nominally
>>different by inclusion of the kingdom name.]
>>>and anybody who doesn’t get made a peer would not be
>>>allowed to wear their Scarf any more.
>>Ahhh you younger kingdoms and your (IMO stupid) sumptuary laws
>
>Huh? How is wearing the symbol of your order part of a "stupid
>sumptuary law"?
It is NOT that wearing the symbol is part of a stupid sumptuary law,
it is telling some one that they CAN"T wear something, especially
something that they were given in accordance with their kingdom law.
Sumptuary laws are stupid, they were stupid in period, and they are
stupid now.
>
>"Younger" kingdoms? Ansteorra will have been a kingdom for 33 years
>come June. Where are *you* from?
Middle)
>>>3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
>>>peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
>>>inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
>>>fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
>>Again a straw man, if a different peerage is made, then there would
>>be no need to close the grant level awards.
>That's option #1, listed above. But a lot of the White Scarves I've
>talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
>second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
>something different.
children.
> The phrase I've heard is "We don't want to become
>rapier-Centurions." (The Centurions are a grant-level polling order
>for armored fighters in Ansteorra--pretty much a stepping stone toward
>knighthood, not an end in itself.)
Not a big fan of considering ANY award a "stepping stone"
>rapier-Centurions." (The Centurions are a grant-level polling order
>for armored fighters in Ansteorra--pretty much a stepping stone toward
>knighthood, not an end in itself.)
>>I suspect there is also no ABILITY to truly close such orders at the society level.
the order and stop you from wearing the scarf where ever you feel like
it. IF the kingdom itself shuts down your order, that really has
noting to do with the creation of an SCA wide peerage.
><shrug> It's not covered in Corpora either way. But there's nothing in
>Corpora that really covers how a new peerage order would be made, so
>*whatever* happens, the Board is going to have to make some new
>policies. Closing an existing order could, concievably, be one of
>them.
>
>
>>And it is I believe orders (plural) not order(singular).
>
>Technically, yes. But functionally they're all one Order.
>Quoting from
>the White Scarf Treaty: "By these our letters we publish and proclaim
>our intent to create an order in our kingdoms to be known as the Order
>of the White Scarf. We do mutually recognize that this order shall be
>chartered in our kingdoms as custom allows. We pledge to honor the
>styles and precedence as shall be established by charter..."
>http://moondragon.info/wiki/The_White_Scarf_Treaty
>
>So a White Scarf from one kingdom is automatically included in WS
>meetings/activities in any other WS kingdom, either as a visitor or
>new resident. And if the Board decides to close/upgrade "the Order of
>the White Scarf" It's going to affect all twelve WS kingdoms, not just
>the original Order in Ansteorra.
would have to specifically destroy the order in each and every kingdom
that has one.
Overall I think you have to look deep inside your self, and ask
DO I think all white scarves are already peerage level fighters in
their art and do they meet peerage requirements?
If the answer is yes, then you make the order a peerage and be done
with it.
If not, then you don't and you consider creating a different peerage
order, called something else.
jk
Chris Zakes
Mar 13, 2012, 6:29:54 PM3/13/12
to
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:41:14 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>>>Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
>>>fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
>>You're missing my point.
>Perhaps, but I was listening to what you actually wrote.
>
>> If the White Scarf becomes just another
>>mid-level award, then that "best of the best" label will, inevitably,
>>migrate over to the new peerage.
>And so what if it does, that is the INEVITABLE result of creating a
>specific peerage level award for an activity.
Which seems to contradict your earlier statement that "Recognition
who might have been knighthood-quality fighters ten or fifteen years
ago, but dropped out before they got the Accolade?
>>>>What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
>>>>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>>>>which don’t?
>>>
>>> No one, if you make the WS a peerage by decree, then it is a peerage,
>>>period. You raise a straw man here.
>>>>
>>>>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
>>
>>>By default, nothing.
>>
>>>> Do all
>>>>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>>>>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>>>>become peers too?
>>>No, unless they are also made peers by decree.
>>>> If not, why not?
>>>Because :)
>>>Oh you want more??? Because they are not white scarves.
>
>>Okay, why discriminate against the rapier fighters in those kingdoms?
>>Are they somehow not as good as the White Scarves?
>No it is a matter of what gets decreed by the BOD.
>If the decree includes them then they become peers, if not, then not.
And that's one of the inherent problems with the whole notion of
making the White Scarf the new peerage.
>>>>In Ealdormere the Order of
>>>>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>>>>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>>>>those for armored combat or archery?
>>
>>>Then CLEARLY it is not the same thing as a WS and should not expect
>>>any elevation just because the WS does.
>>
>>But again, why discriminate in favor of some grant-level rapier award
>>holders and against others?
>They wouldn't be
>If there is no differentiation in the award, then it is NOT a grant
>level rapier award, just a grant level award.
But if the basic thesis is that all holders of grant-level rapier
awards automatically become peers, then it puts Ealdormere in a very
difficult situation.
Okay, but I don't see how that's a sumptuary law. Can I wear a white
belt at an SCA event, even if I'm not a knight? If the rules are
changed to say that rapier-peers wear white scarves, then non-rapier
peers can't wear those scarves. How is this different?
>>"Younger" kingdoms? Ansteorra will have been a kingdom for 33 years
>>come June. Where are *you* from?
>The WEST, Who else would say that? (OK perhaps the East and the
>Middle)
Just checking.
>>>>3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
>>>>peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
>>>>inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
>>>>fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
>>>Again a straw man, if a different peerage is made, then there would
>>>be no need to close the grant level awards.
>>That's option #1, listed above. But a lot of the White Scarves I've
>>talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
>>second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
>>something different.
>To me that sort of talk comes across as the bruised egos of spoiled
>children.
<shrug> I suppose you can see it that way if you want, but I don't
think it's a very accurate portrayal. If this peerage happens, we're
looking at major changes in a 33-year tradition, and the end of
something that's unique in the SCA; I don't think either "bruised
egos" or "spoiled children" really apply. How would you feel if the
Board announced that your next Crown Touranment was going to be done
using tiddlywinks, rather than armored combat? Or if they said the
next king was going to be elected?
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
--
The wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. So while I was
waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.
-Lu-Tze in "Thief of Time" by Terry Pratchett
caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:44:56 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>>caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>No it didn't you silly goose, It was a suborbital black helicopter,
>using microwaves.
No, that hallucination was part of the mind-control process. <G>
>Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:44:56 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>>caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>No it didn't you silly goose, It was a suborbital black helicopter,
>using microwaves.
>>>Recognition does not change your ability. I was no better or worse a
>>>fighter the day after I was knighted, than the day before.
>>You're missing my point.
>Perhaps, but I was listening to what you actually wrote.
>
>> If the White Scarf becomes just another
>>mid-level award, then that "best of the best" label will, inevitably,
>>migrate over to the new peerage.
>And so what if it does, that is the INEVITABLE result of creating a
>specific peerage level award for an activity.
does not change your ability."
>>>>2. The White Scarf becomes the new peerage. But this idea has several
>>>>problems built into it.
>>>Yep, but if it is done that is what should be done.
>>>
>>>> Do all existing White Scarves automatically
>>>>become peers?
>>>Yes, in that case.
>>>>(Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
>>>>many years?
>>>Yes
>>
>>So someone who has a White Scarf, but hasn't even *been* to an SCA
>>event (let alone fought or done any teaching) for fifteen or twenty
>>years still gets to be a peer? Why?
>Because you are doing it by decree, and because ( as you list below)
>there is NO way to decide "who".
>Or put another way, how do YOU know who has or hasn't been to an event
>in years?
>As well, do we "kick out" other peers who haven't been active??????
That's hardly the same thing. Do we give knighthoods today to people
>>>>problems built into it.
>>>Yep, but if it is done that is what should be done.
>>>
>>>> Do all existing White Scarves automatically
>>>>become peers?
>>>Yes, in that case.
>>>>(Does that include the ones that haven’t been active for
>>>>many years?
>>>Yes
>>
>>So someone who has a White Scarf, but hasn't even *been* to an SCA
>>event (let alone fought or done any teaching) for fifteen or twenty
>>years still gets to be a peer? Why?
>Because you are doing it by decree, and because ( as you list below)
>there is NO way to decide "who".
>Or put another way, how do YOU know who has or hasn't been to an event
>in years?
>As well, do we "kick out" other peers who haven't been active??????
who might have been knighthood-quality fighters ten or fifteen years
ago, but dropped out before they got the Accolade?
>>>>What about the ones who’ve died?) If not, who decides what
>>>>constitutes “inactive” and which White Scarves get the new peerage and
>>>>which don’t?
>>>
>>> No one, if you make the WS a peerage by decree, then it is a peerage,
>>>period. You raise a straw man here.
>>>>
>>>>What happens to the kingdoms that don’t use the White Scarf?
>>
>>>By default, nothing.
>>
>>>> Do all
>>>>the members of the Order of the Golden Rapier, Bronze Ring, Dragon’s
>>>>Steel, Meridien Order of the Blade and Queen’s Rose automatically
>>>>become peers too?
>>>No, unless they are also made peers by decree.
>>>> If not, why not?
>>>Because :)
>>>Oh you want more??? Because they are not white scarves.
>
>>Okay, why discriminate against the rapier fighters in those kingdoms?
>>Are they somehow not as good as the White Scarves?
>No it is a matter of what gets decreed by the BOD.
>If the decree includes them then they become peers, if not, then not.
making the White Scarf the new peerage.
>>>>In Ealdormere the Order of
>>>>Thorbjorn’s Hammer is given for all martial activities, not just
>>>>rapier. Do we say that the rapier-Hammers get to be peers but not
>>>>those for armored combat or archery?
>>
>>>Then CLEARLY it is not the same thing as a WS and should not expect
>>>any elevation just because the WS does.
>>
>>But again, why discriminate in favor of some grant-level rapier award
>>holders and against others?
>They wouldn't be
>If there is no differentiation in the award, then it is NOT a grant
>level rapier award, just a grant level award.
awards automatically become peers, then it puts Ealdormere in a very
difficult situation.
belt at an SCA event, even if I'm not a knight? If the rules are
changed to say that rapier-peers wear white scarves, then non-rapier
peers can't wear those scarves. How is this different?
>>"Younger" kingdoms? Ansteorra will have been a kingdom for 33 years
>>come June. Where are *you* from?
>The WEST, Who else would say that? (OK perhaps the East and the
>Middle)
>>>>3. The Order of the White Scarf is closed and replaced with a new
>>>>peerage and a different intermediate award. If that happens, then
>>>>inevitably the White Scarf and much of what it means to the SCA would
>>>>fade into the mists of time. Is that a desirable outcome?
>>>Again a straw man, if a different peerage is made, then there would
>>>be no need to close the grant level awards.
>>That's option #1, listed above. But a lot of the White Scarves I've
>>talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
>>second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
>>something different.
>To me that sort of talk comes across as the bruised egos of spoiled
>children.
think it's a very accurate portrayal. If this peerage happens, we're
looking at major changes in a 33-year tradition, and the end of
something that's unique in the SCA; I don't think either "bruised
egos" or "spoiled children" really apply. How would you feel if the
Board announced that your next Crown Touranment was going to be done
using tiddlywinks, rather than armored combat? Or if they said the
next king was going to be elected?
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
--
The wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. So while I was
waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.
-Lu-Tze in "Thief of Time" by Terry Pratchett
David Friedman
Mar 13, 2012, 8:39:48 PM3/13/12
to
Reading this thread, I'm wondering if it would be better to simply leave
things as they are, with the White Scarf as an officially non-peerage
award that, in at least some kingdoms, ranks with the peerages in terms
of perceived status.
I actually have my own award of that sort--although perception is up to
the perceiver. If someone comes to my bardic circle at Pennsic and does
something that really impresses me, the sort of piece that the circle
exists for, he or she gets a twisted silver arm ring of my making.
I recently came across a web page belonging to someone who had gotten
one. She described it as the bard's equivalent of winning crown.
Which was sort of the idea.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
things as they are, with the White Scarf as an officially non-peerage
award that, in at least some kingdoms, ranks with the peerages in terms
of perceived status.
I actually have my own award of that sort--although perception is up to
the perceiver. If someone comes to my bardic circle at Pennsic and does
something that really impresses me, the sort of piece that the circle
exists for, he or she gets a twisted silver arm ring of my making.
I recently came across a web page belonging to someone who had gotten
one. She described it as the bard's equivalent of winning crown.
Which was sort of the idea.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Chris Zakes
Mar 14, 2012, 9:35:49 AM3/14/12
to
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:39:48 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
caused David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> to write:
>Reading this thread, I'm wondering if it would be better to simply leave
>things as they are, with the White Scarf as an officially non-peerage
>award that, in at least some kingdoms, ranks with the peerages in terms
>of perceived status.
That works for me. Creating a knighthood-equivalent for something
caused David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> to write:
>Reading this thread, I'm wondering if it would be better to simply leave
>things as they are, with the White Scarf as an officially non-peerage
>award that, in at least some kingdoms, ranks with the peerages in terms
>of perceived status.
that, in period, would not have gotten its practitioners a knighthood
seems rather silly if we're supposed to be studying and re-creating
history, rather than just making things up.
(And yes, I know that there's little historical precedent for the
Order of the Laurel, and that knights shouldn't outrank lords. The
founders were frequently operating from ignorance and making things up
as they went along. With 45 years of tradition behind it, its unlikely
to be changed now. But is that an excuse to make things even less
historical when we *do* know better? That's like saying "well, my
shoes aren't period, so it doesn't really matter if I wear a T-shirt
instead of a T-tunic to court.)
Zebee Johnstone
Mar 14, 2012, 4:24:46 PM3/14/12
to
In rec.org.sca on Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:35:49 -0500
I think it is more like "My shoes aren't period so I'll wear these
plain cotton trackpants instead of trews to the mudfight".
The peerages aren't our big historical thing, neither is court. Those
are both game things.
The big historical things are the things individuals do, not what the
SCA does. Pretty well all the SCA things are ahistorical: the awards
by acclamation rather than gift, the tournaments with single hit
rules, the "Wounding" and "Dying" in them, the "wars", the "feasts"
with almost no social strata in them. Hell, the whole "explosion in a
time machine" ambience.
The SCA is a framework which gives people a place to study the things
that interest them to the level they wish to go to. The framework is
the original Victorian Romantic one, and the awards are part of that.
I can be historical in some things, like my fencing style, and
a-historical in others, like my White Scarf. And halfway between like
my rank of Guildmaster in the Lochac Guild of Defence which is a
teaching association loosely based on the London Masters.
The historical is the things we do as individuals. Some deeply, some
shallowly, some not at all.
The Romantic is the things we do that are "SCA". The recognition of
things other than money, birth, or violence combined with birth[1],
the lack of taxes and coercion and plots and Star Chambers and
inherited rank. The ranks generally, especially Royalty!
A peerage for skill at civilian combat isn't a period thing. MInd
you, a knighthood for someone of no birth rank is known but it isn't
at all usual in Western Europe.
The peerages aren't a historical re-creation and *should* *not* *be*.
They are the way we recognise the leaders in the game who are doing
good work on the Romantic side, the Historical side, the Game side, or
all three. They are the plaques and the recognition boards and the
announcements at annual dinners that other clubs have but in the SCA
we do that in our SCA way.
If we decided all peerages had to be historical (or even only new
ones) we would basically be selling them. Selling them for backing in
wars or trading them as ways of influencing powerful people, or plain
selling them. And once we had a few, then only sons of those with
peerages could be peers.[2]
If someone feels that getting an ahistorical award ruins their fun,
then the answer to that is easy.
Me, I can't see that any award stops me having my fun. I clearly see
the distinction between the SCA-as-game-and-club and my activities in
it, some of which are about historical re-creation and learning.
The reason the SCA is so big and so widespread is that it has managed
the tensions between these things so well. More by luck than
judgement I admit and there are things about the inevitably muddy
middle ground that annoy me.
But I haven't moved from it to one of the many Western Martial Arts
groups springing up all over, instead I've worked with my fellow
fencing tragics to make the Guild of Defence into something I feel
proud of: a group of teachers and practitioners who think period fence
is a goal to strive for and read manuals for fun. I stay because the
SCA has a lot to offer and much of what I enjoy in it is not period,
it is SCA. That includes the whole silly messy ahistorical awards
system.
The SCA is *not* a historical re-creation organisation no matter what
the docs say. It contains such things, and a lot more besides.
Silfren
- who has no idea how the new peerage would work but would be happy
with any of the options because her status in the SCA isn't based
on awards at all. It's based on activity and actions. Awards are
nice and all, and being called Dona or Guildmaster gives me a thrill
but they don't make it any easier for me to execute a correct fencing
move in the middle of a bout. One is game and public and ahistorical,
one is personal and private and historical.
[1] there were people recognised and rewarded with more than money or
loot for violence but they were overwhelmingly already of rank. The
non-ranked violent ones were called outlaws and hung.
[2] daughters forget it. You get to be married off to the highest
bidder, hoping your guardian hasn't stripped your assets. By the
timne we have anything like the peerage system women were assets not
humans anyway. If you aren't going to take the whole system but pick
parts you like well... that's what we do now.
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> founders were frequently operating from ignorance and making things up
> as they went along. With 45 years of tradition behind it, its unlikely
> to be changed now. But is that an excuse to make things even less
> historical when we *do* know better? That's like saying "well, my
> shoes aren't period, so it doesn't really matter if I wear a T-shirt
> instead of a T-tunic to court.)
>
I don't think it is.
> founders were frequently operating from ignorance and making things up
> as they went along. With 45 years of tradition behind it, its unlikely
> to be changed now. But is that an excuse to make things even less
> historical when we *do* know better? That's like saying "well, my
> shoes aren't period, so it doesn't really matter if I wear a T-shirt
> instead of a T-tunic to court.)
>
I think it is more like "My shoes aren't period so I'll wear these
plain cotton trackpants instead of trews to the mudfight".
The peerages aren't our big historical thing, neither is court. Those
are both game things.
The big historical things are the things individuals do, not what the
SCA does. Pretty well all the SCA things are ahistorical: the awards
by acclamation rather than gift, the tournaments with single hit
rules, the "Wounding" and "Dying" in them, the "wars", the "feasts"
with almost no social strata in them. Hell, the whole "explosion in a
time machine" ambience.
The SCA is a framework which gives people a place to study the things
that interest them to the level they wish to go to. The framework is
the original Victorian Romantic one, and the awards are part of that.
I can be historical in some things, like my fencing style, and
a-historical in others, like my White Scarf. And halfway between like
my rank of Guildmaster in the Lochac Guild of Defence which is a
teaching association loosely based on the London Masters.
The historical is the things we do as individuals. Some deeply, some
shallowly, some not at all.
The Romantic is the things we do that are "SCA". The recognition of
things other than money, birth, or violence combined with birth[1],
the lack of taxes and coercion and plots and Star Chambers and
inherited rank. The ranks generally, especially Royalty!
A peerage for skill at civilian combat isn't a period thing. MInd
you, a knighthood for someone of no birth rank is known but it isn't
at all usual in Western Europe.
The peerages aren't a historical re-creation and *should* *not* *be*.
They are the way we recognise the leaders in the game who are doing
good work on the Romantic side, the Historical side, the Game side, or
all three. They are the plaques and the recognition boards and the
announcements at annual dinners that other clubs have but in the SCA
we do that in our SCA way.
If we decided all peerages had to be historical (or even only new
ones) we would basically be selling them. Selling them for backing in
wars or trading them as ways of influencing powerful people, or plain
selling them. And once we had a few, then only sons of those with
peerages could be peers.[2]
If someone feels that getting an ahistorical award ruins their fun,
then the answer to that is easy.
Me, I can't see that any award stops me having my fun. I clearly see
the distinction between the SCA-as-game-and-club and my activities in
it, some of which are about historical re-creation and learning.
The reason the SCA is so big and so widespread is that it has managed
the tensions between these things so well. More by luck than
judgement I admit and there are things about the inevitably muddy
middle ground that annoy me.
But I haven't moved from it to one of the many Western Martial Arts
groups springing up all over, instead I've worked with my fellow
fencing tragics to make the Guild of Defence into something I feel
proud of: a group of teachers and practitioners who think period fence
is a goal to strive for and read manuals for fun. I stay because the
SCA has a lot to offer and much of what I enjoy in it is not period,
it is SCA. That includes the whole silly messy ahistorical awards
system.
The SCA is *not* a historical re-creation organisation no matter what
the docs say. It contains such things, and a lot more besides.
Silfren
- who has no idea how the new peerage would work but would be happy
with any of the options because her status in the SCA isn't based
on awards at all. It's based on activity and actions. Awards are
nice and all, and being called Dona or Guildmaster gives me a thrill
but they don't make it any easier for me to execute a correct fencing
move in the middle of a bout. One is game and public and ahistorical,
one is personal and private and historical.
[1] there were people recognised and rewarded with more than money or
loot for violence but they were overwhelmingly already of rank. The
non-ranked violent ones were called outlaws and hung.
[2] daughters forget it. You get to be married off to the highest
bidder, hoping your guardian hasn't stripped your assets. By the
timne we have anything like the peerage system women were assets not
humans anyway. If you aren't going to take the whole system but pick
parts you like well... that's what we do now.
David Friedman
Mar 14, 2012, 5:09:21 PM3/14/12
to
In article <slrnjm1vkd....@gmail.com>,
my view, a better game the wider the range of things that can be
included in the period context.
> The big historical things are the things individuals do, not what the
> SCA does. Pretty well all the SCA things are ahistorical: the awards
> by acclamation rather than gift, the tournaments with single hit
> rules, the "Wounding" and "Dying" in them, the "wars", the "feasts"
> with almost no social strata in them. Hell, the whole "explosion in a
> time machine" ambience.
Actually, the explosion in the time machine ambiance isn't that big a
problem--consider how diverse some period settings were. Ibn Battuta
must have encountered at least as wide a range of clothing and culture
in his travels as you would meet at an SCA event--and even staying in
one place, consider southern Italy under the Normans or Constantinople.
> The SCA is a framework which gives people a place to study the things
> that interest them to the level they wish to go to. The framework is
> the original Victorian Romantic one, and the awards are part of that.
That is one version of the game, but I think an impoverished version. I
can study period cooking outside the SCA. I can, nowadays, find other
people interested in it online. But the SCA can provide a context for
being a medieval person interacting with other medieval people, a game
much harder to arrange elsewhere.
...
> The Romantic is the things we do that are "SCA". The recognition of
> things other than money, birth, or violence combined with birth[1],
> the lack of taxes and coercion and plots and Star Chambers and
> inherited rank. The ranks generally, especially Royalty!
We don't lack plots or, as recently demonstrated, taxation. Period
societies recognized things other than money, birth, or violence. And we
recognize versions of all three of those.
> Me, I can't see that any award stops me having my fun. I clearly see
> the distinction between the SCA-as-game-and-club and my activities in
> it, some of which are about historical re-creation and learning.
No one thing done strikingly wrong, historically speaking, makes it
impossible to have fun in the SCA, or even to have the kind of fun I
just described--but each makes the latter harder.
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The peerages aren't our big historical thing, neither is court. Those
> are both game things.
The SCA is a range of different games for different players. It is, in
> The peerages aren't our big historical thing, neither is court. Those
> are both game things.
my view, a better game the wider the range of things that can be
included in the period context.
> The big historical things are the things individuals do, not what the
> SCA does. Pretty well all the SCA things are ahistorical: the awards
> by acclamation rather than gift, the tournaments with single hit
> rules, the "Wounding" and "Dying" in them, the "wars", the "feasts"
> with almost no social strata in them. Hell, the whole "explosion in a
> time machine" ambience.
problem--consider how diverse some period settings were. Ibn Battuta
must have encountered at least as wide a range of clothing and culture
in his travels as you would meet at an SCA event--and even staying in
one place, consider southern Italy under the Normans or Constantinople.
> The SCA is a framework which gives people a place to study the things
> that interest them to the level they wish to go to. The framework is
> the original Victorian Romantic one, and the awards are part of that.
can study period cooking outside the SCA. I can, nowadays, find other
people interested in it online. But the SCA can provide a context for
being a medieval person interacting with other medieval people, a game
much harder to arrange elsewhere.
...
> The Romantic is the things we do that are "SCA". The recognition of
> things other than money, birth, or violence combined with birth[1],
> the lack of taxes and coercion and plots and Star Chambers and
> inherited rank. The ranks generally, especially Royalty!
societies recognized things other than money, birth, or violence. And we
recognize versions of all three of those.
> Me, I can't see that any award stops me having my fun. I clearly see
> the distinction between the SCA-as-game-and-club and my activities in
> it, some of which are about historical re-creation and learning.
impossible to have fun in the SCA, or even to have the kind of fun I
just described--but each makes the latter harder.
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
jk
Mar 14, 2012, 7:12:42 PM3/14/12
to
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>And so what if it does, that is the INEVITABLE result of creating a
>>specific peerage level award for an activity.
>
>Which seems to contradict your earlier statement that "Recognition
>does not change your ability."
Not in the slightest. It changes the perception(after time) but not
>
>>And so what if it does, that is the INEVITABLE result of creating a
>>specific peerage level award for an activity.
>
>Which seems to contradict your earlier statement that "Recognition
>does not change your ability."
the reality.
>
>That's hardly the same thing. Do we give knighthoods today to people
>who might have been knighthood-quality fighters ten or fifteen years
>ago, but dropped out before they got the Accolade?
>
the worn out old farts" were to be recognized as such, then yes if
they were members of such.
>
>>No it is a matter of what gets decreed by the BOD.
>>If the decree includes them then they become peers, if not, then not.
>
>And that's one of the inherent problems with the whole notion of
>making the White Scarf the new peerage.
Yep
>>No it is a matter of what gets decreed by the BOD.
>>If the decree includes them then they become peers, if not, then not.
>
>And that's one of the inherent problems with the whole notion of
>making the White Scarf the new peerage.
>>>But again, why discriminate in favor of some grant-level rapier award
>>>holders and against others?
>>They wouldn't be
>>If there is no differentiation in the award, then it is NOT a grant
>>level rapier award, just a grant level award.
>
>But if the basic thesis is that all holders of grant-level rapier
>awards automatically become peers, then it puts Ealdormere in a very
>difficult situation.
just grant level awards. Unless you are arguing that some one who is
given a grant, how happens to be a rapier fighter, some how has a
"grant level rapier award".
And to my mind the white scarf has never been exactly a "grant level
rapier award" any way. To me it has been (and was intended to be) a
rapier award, that happened to carry a grant because it couldn't carry
something higher.
Subtextualy I think it was also originally intended as a slap in the
face to SOME parts of the chivalry.
>
\
>>You miss my point.
>>It is NOT that wearing the symbol is part of a stupid sumptuary law,
>>it is telling some one that they CAN"T wear something, especially
>>something that they were given in accordance with their kingdom law.
>>
>>Sumptuary laws are stupid, they were stupid in period, and they are
>>stupid now.
>
>Okay, but I don't see how that's a sumptuary law. Can I wear a white
>belt at an SCA event, even if I'm not a knight?
>If the rules are
>changed to say that rapier-peers wear white scarves, then non-rapier
>peers can't wear those scarves. How is this different?
in the difference between "rules" and customs.
>>It is NOT that wearing the symbol is part of a stupid sumptuary law,
>>it is telling some one that they CAN"T wear something, especially
>>something that they were given in accordance with their kingdom law.
>>
>>Sumptuary laws are stupid, they were stupid in period, and they are
>>stupid now.
>
>Okay, but I don't see how that's a sumptuary law. Can I wear a white
>belt at an SCA event, even if I'm not a knight?
>If the rules are
>changed to say that rapier-peers wear white scarves, then non-rapier
>peers can't wear those scarves. How is this different?
There are some also who would argue, that none of the "regalia" of any
of the order is forbidden, and that heraldically it is only the actual
device of the order that is protected. I am not sure I entirely buy
those arguments.
>>>"Younger" kingdoms? Ansteorra will have been a kingdom for 33 years
>>>come June. Where are *you* from?
>>The WEST, Who else would say that? (OK perhaps the East and the
>>Middle)
>
>Just checking.
maintain our reputation.
>>>But a lot of the White Scarves I've
>>>talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
>>>second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
>>>something different.
>
>>To me that sort of talk comes across as the bruised egos of spoiled
>>children.
>
><shrug> I suppose you can see it that way if you want, but I don't
>think it's a very accurate portrayal. If this peerage happens, we're
>looking at major changes in a 33-year tradition, and the end of
>something that's unique in the SCA; I don't think either "bruised
>egos" or "spoiled children" really apply.
Well to me (And I have no dog in this fight at all) it is "you won't
>>>talked to are not thrilled about the notion of the WS becoming a
>>>second-rank award, and would rather see it closed and replaced with
>>>something different.
>
>>To me that sort of talk comes across as the bruised egos of spoiled
>>children.
>
><shrug> I suppose you can see it that way if you want, but I don't
>think it's a very accurate portrayal. If this peerage happens, we're
>looking at major changes in a 33-year tradition, and the end of
>something that's unique in the SCA; I don't think either "bruised
>egos" or "spoiled children" really apply.
play the way I want, so I am taking my sandbox and going home."
I see no reason for the order to close, especially it is NOT make the
default name of the new order.
> How would you feel if the
>Board announced that your next Crown Touranment was going to be done
>using tiddlywinks,
Great, since my knees are shot. Finally something that takes real
>Board announced that your next Crown Touranment was going to be done
>using tiddlywinks,
skill
>rather than armored combat? Or if they said the
>next king was going to be elected?
But more seriously, there is a line on pieces of various kingdom's
regalia that says in effect "you rule because they believe". As long
as we believe it, an election would be OK.
Stuffed down our throat,.... what control does the BOD really have
other than what we let them have?
jk
Chris Zakes
Mar 15, 2012, 7:56:33 AM3/15/12
to
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:12:42 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
(snip)
>And to my mind the white scarf has never been exactly a "grant level
>rapier award" any way. To me it has been (and was intended to be) a
>rapier award, that happened to carry a grant because it couldn't carry
>something higher.
>
>Subtextualy I think it was also originally intended as a slap in the
>face to SOME parts of the chivalry.
Speaking as the person who wrote the original White Scarf charter, I
say your perceptions are mistaken. Especially that second one.
(snip)
>And to my mind the white scarf has never been exactly a "grant level
>rapier award" any way. To me it has been (and was intended to be) a
>rapier award, that happened to carry a grant because it couldn't carry
>something higher.
>
>Subtextualy I think it was also originally intended as a slap in the
>face to SOME parts of the chivalry.
say your perceptions are mistaken. Especially that second one.
Nicole Massey
Oct 16, 2012, 3:06:21 PM10/16/12
to
"Chris Zakes" <dont...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hrl3m75dibn9mre8r...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:12:42 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
> caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>
> (snip)
>
>>And to my mind the white scarf has never been exactly a "grant level
>>rapier award" any way. To me it has been (and was intended to be) a
>>rapier award, that happened to carry a grant because it couldn't carry
>>something higher.
>>
>>Subtextualy I think it was also originally intended as a slap in the
>>face to SOME parts of the chivalry.
>
> Speaking as the person who wrote the original White Scarf charter, I
> say your perceptions are mistaken. Especially that second one.
>
> -Tivar Moondragon
As someone who played in Ansteorra for a while, and was involved in rapier
> caused jk <kle...@suddenlink.net> to write:
>
> (snip)
>
>>And to my mind the white scarf has never been exactly a "grant level
>>rapier award" any way. To me it has been (and was intended to be) a
>>rapier award, that happened to carry a grant because it couldn't carry
>>something higher.
>>
>>Subtextualy I think it was also originally intended as a slap in the
>>face to SOME parts of the chivalry.
>
> Speaking as the person who wrote the original White Scarf charter, I
> say your perceptions are mistaken. Especially that second one.
>
> -Tivar Moondragon
combat, (one of my last bouts was against your lady, Don Tivar) there has
never been in my mind any question that the Order of The White Scarf was as
vital and prominent in action if not in prescedence in the life of
Ansteorra. As such, it should have always been a patent level award, but
that was impossible due to the way the SCA handles award creation.
As for other orders that aren't orders of the white scarf needing elevation
to patent level, that is a local kingdom issue -- if the patent order level
award known as the Order of the White Scarf were to be created, for example,
then it would be up to those kingdoms to elevate their appropriate members
to that rank.
No intermediary award would be needed -- unlike the Laurels and Pelicans
there is no "progression" for the chivalry -- a person doesn't even have to
have an award of arms to become a squier, unless something has changed
during my years of inactivity. This seems to be a matter of work not for
those orders but instead for calligraphers and royalty to elevate the rapier
community to what is, in my own personal opinion, their correct and natural
place.
As for those who no longer play, it's not really going to make much of a
difference, is it? I for one would love to see Don Giovanni honored with a
peerage posthumously, and I could care less if that means Luigi De Donat or
the lamentably much absent Dona Gerrod were also risen to that status. This
is really a non-issue, and making it one makes the process more complex to
no good effect.
The SCA has always had a problem of folks who are up to snuff for an award,
but due to the subjective instead of objective nature of awards in the
society those folks didn't get recognized. But the inactive (due to demise
or other reasons) white scarves still gained that certification, and with
only one exception I know of did so with the support of the community. (That
said, I'm unsure how you, Luigi, David Gallowglass, Robin, and the other
first round of white scarves in Ansteorra gained your positions, so that
might be a bit of a rather meaningless counter to my prior statement) So
they made the grade then, and if the SCA is rectifying that previous
condition by elevating the White Scarves to Peer level then that means the
entire order.
Another benefit to this is that the titles of Don and Dona could be set ins
tone, much how Master and Mistress are for the laurels and pelicans and Sir,
Dame, Master, and Mistress are protected for the chivalry. (Though i do know
that not all kindoms offer the Master/Mistress of Arms as an option)
And this brings me to a question -- the original post was written some time
ago. What is the current status of this issue?
Lady (trying to find the right Italian female title for an AoA) Nicoletta
Henrietta Octavia du Landini called Il Volpina
0 new messages