Gaelic pronunciation
Petrea Mitchell
I am constantly encountering Gaelic names that I have no idea
how to pronounce. The only thing I know is that they're never
pronounce the way they're spelled. Does anyone know where I can
find a pronuciation guide?
--
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> Petrea Ravn
<pr...@agora.rain.com> Relocated from the Mists to Dragon's Mist
"I don't know which is worse, the traps or the puns."
---The Animated Batman
Steven H Mesnick
which basically boils down to ignoring the second letter in a diphthong.
T elaborate: Gaelic differentiates between "broad" and "slender" vowels. If
a syllable contains a "slender" vowel, the syllable is slender; if the vowel is
broad, the syllable is broad. "A" and "O" are broad, "I" and "E" are slender.
The catch is you can't have a broad vowel next to a slender one (not counting
consonants). In other words you can't have a word xIxAx where the x's are
consonants. So they toss in a sort of "buffering" letter so you get, say
xIOxAx. If you start ignoring the "extraneous" vowels, you find that, i.e.
Liosliath is "leslie". Oh yes, I should mention that it seems you can safely
ignore most "TH", "GH", or "DH" combinations. "Si" = "sh". "Mh", however, is "v",
believe it or not, and so is "bh". Trying it on some Gaelic names, you get:
Siobhan = sho-van
Maighread = mary
Padraig = patrick (pron. pah-drig)
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS "DIRTY TRICKS" FOR HERALDS, NOT LINGUISTICS. TURN OFF THE
FLAMETHROWERS. THANK YOU.
Steffan ap Cennydd
Jo Jaquinta
called "Gaelic". Most people on this side of the water will assume you are
talking about "Scots Gaelic" if you just say Gaelic.
In article <CA1Bu...@world.std.com> ste...@world.std.com (Steven H Mesnick) writes:
>Gaelic pronunciation was a mystery to me until someone told me *THE SECRET*
>which basically boils down to ignoring the second letter in a diphthong.
Sadly this doesn't work. Dipthongs have their own unique pronunciation
which doesn't necessarily have to do with the letters. You are correct about
browd and narrow vowels. That is more a help to spelling, not pronunciation.
It is true, though, that you can ignore most consonants followed by an "h"
("h" doesn't exist in period Irish anyway). "S" is always pronounced as
"Sh" unless following certain types of vowels or something.
>Siobhan = sho-van
Not quite, try: shih-VAWN
>Maighread = mary
Mary is the anglicisation, the pronunciation is more like
MOY-rah
>Padraig = patrick (pron. pah-drig)
Close, try a longer a: PAW-drig
>DISCLAIMER: THIS IS "DIRTY TRICKS" FOR HERALDS, NOT LINGUISTICS. TURN OFF THE
>FLAMETHROWERS. THANK YOU.
Well it is better than nought, but still lacking. The best way
to learn to pronounce Irish is by listening to it, not by the spelling :-).
Seamus Donn
% Seamus Donn Eva de Barri Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
%|% Jo Jaquinta Cathy Barry Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\ jay...@maths.tcd.ie cba...@maths.tcd.ie lgr...@maths.tcd.ie
===== 44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
/|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri')
T. Archer
>Path: martha.utcc.utk.edu!cs.utk.edu!nntp.memst.edu!ukma!asuvax!chnews!ornews.intel.com!percy!agora!pravn
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>Subject: Gaelic pronunciation
>Message-ID: <C9woo...@agora.rain.com>
>From: pr...@agora.rain.com (Petrea Mitchell)
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 16:34:08 GMT
>Distribution: rec.org.sca
>Organization: Open Communications Forum
>Keywords: gaelic language pronunciation
>Summary: need help with unpronounceable names
>Lines: 12
>Unto those upon the Rialto does Petrea Ravn send greetings!
>
> I am constantly encountering Gaelic names that I have no idea
> how to pronounce. The only thing I know is that they're never
> pronounce the way they're spelled. Does anyone know where I can
> find a pronuciation guide?
>
Can you speak? If you can answer yes to these two questions, you didn't
pronouce it right.
Annoyingly Clueless
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
E-Mail to PA14...@utkvm1.utk.edu, mail to ARCHER at that address will
bounce. "Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lesley Grant
>In article <CA1Bu...@world.std.com> ste...@world.std.com (Steven H Mesnick) writes:
>>Maighread = mary
> Mary is the anglicisation, the pronunciation is more like
> MOY-rah
Maighread (mor-RAYD) = Margaret
Maire (MAW-ruh) = Mary
>>Padraig = patrick (pron. pah-drig)
> Close, try a longer a: PAW-drig
Or, alternatively, PAW-rik
Sorcha (SUH-ruh-kuh :-)
Leigh Ann Hussey
pronunciation guide, and I just happen to have one lying around here.
My good friend Elton is responsible for the bulk of it, but I helped.
Here we go:
From elton Mon Jan 6 15:04:27 1992
To: sun!community-chest.mitre.org!heimberg
Subject: Re: Your Recent Rules for Gaelic Pronunciation on Alt.Pagan
Herewith, a short treatise on "The Irish: How She Are Pronounced", copied
more or less verbatim from the front matter of Foclo'ir Po'ca, an Irish/
English pocket dictionary (which is of course what "foclo'ir po'ca" means).
-------------- Cut Here ---------------
Guidelines for pronunciation of spoken Irish Gaelic
These rules are reprinted w/o permission from _Foclo'ir Po'ca_ (Pocket
Dictionary), copr. 1986 Rialtas na hE'ireann.
Because of the limitations of this typed form, I am going to have to
adopt some conventions. In any transcribed Gaelic word containing an
accent, I will:
- render the accent as an apostrophe /'/ *after* the vowel that takes it
- italicize letters by leaving a blank line under that line and placing a
caret /^/ under the italicized character(s)
- italicize words and phrases by using _leading_and_trailing_underscores_.
In my transcription of the dictionary pronunciation text, I will denote
any emendations of my own by placing the changes in [brackets]. I have
also had to replace some special symbols used in the dictionary with
other symbols that are available on an ASCII keyboard. I have noted them
with marks in the charts and explanations below the charts showing what
they should be. This transcription uses the exact punctuation and
spelling found in the dictionary. I have proofread it carefully and
certify that it is an exact copy of the text I transcribed it from.
[Dictionary front matter transcription begins here, from page xii ff.]
Outline of the Pronunciation Guide
The system of pronunciation proposed here contains all the essential
contrasts found in the three main dialects. It does not correspond in
every detail to any one dialect but contains a core common to them all.
It is hoped that this core dialect will assist the teaching and learning
of spoken Irish at a basic and intermediate level, and that the system
will serve as a guide to Irish pronunciation for those involved in
lecturing, broadcasting and in the media generally. For those already
fluent in Irish, this core dialect is not meant to displace their
existing dialect but is intended as an alternative medium for use in
more formal contexts. The sound transcription used in the dictionary
is explained briefly below.
THE VOWELS
It was agreed that a vowel system containing five long vowels, five
corresponding short vowels and a neutral vowel would suffice to cover
all the contrasts found in Irish. Long and short vowels must be
distinguished because replacing one by the other can change the meaning
of a word. When /:/ is placed after a vowel it denotes that the vowel
is long. The eleven elements of the vowel system are listed below.
Symbol: Gaelic Examples: Nearest English equivalent:
i duine, im, sin sit
i: bui', naoi, si'n me
e ceist, te set
e: me', tae say
a bean, mac bat [but slightly broader than that]
a: ard, ta' far [the broad "ah" sound]
o obair, seo son
o: ceol, mo'r more
u dubh, tiubh book
u: siu'l, tu' who
* @ ma'la, mi'le about
^ ^ ^
[* /@/ is the _shwa_, the upside-down "e" that dictionaries use to
indicate a pause in the breath rather than a real sound.]
[ Remember that in any group of vowels (modern spelling conventions), the
vowel with the accent sets the major sound of the group. If no vowel
has an accent then it is most likely the second vowel that sets the
pronunciation; the first is generally there to modify the sound of
a preceding consonant. A consonant preceded by a vowel from one group
(a,o,u are the broadening group; i,e are the slenderising group) MUST
be followed by another vowel from that same group before a vowel from
the other group may be introduced. This is how the pronunciations of
consonants are forced, and many vowels are included in words only to
set that pronunciation. ]
THE DIPHTHONGS:
In the core system of pronunciation found in this dictionary there are
_four_contrasting_diphthongs_. They are as follows:
Symbol: Gaelic Examples: Nearest English equivalent:
ai radharc I
^^^^ [emphasis mine]
au leabhar cow
^^^^
i@ bia, pian pianist
u@ buar, suas fluent
THE CONSONANTS
It was agreed that a consonant system containing thirty-six consonants
would suffice to cover all the contrasts found in Irish. With the
exception of /h/ and /d'z'/, Irish can be regarded as having two sets
of consonant sounds. One set contains seventeen _broad_ consonants,
the other set contains the corresponding seventeen _slender_ consonants.
More technically, the terms _velarised_ and _palatalised_ are used for
_broad_ and _slender_ respectively. Broad and slender consonants must
be distinguished because replacing one by the other can change the
meaning of a word. In written Irish, broad consonants are preceded or
followed by "A", "O", or "U". Slender consonants are preceded or
followed by "I" or "E". Thus Irish has a slender /b'/ as in _beo_
"alive" /b'o:/ and a broad /b/ as in _bo'_ "cow" /bo:/ and it is the
type of "b" used that distinguishes _beo_ from _bo'_. The same can be
said for the pair _cead_ "permission", /k'ad/, and _cad?_ "what?", /kad/,
where the two words are distinguished by the "c" sounds used. The other
fifteen pairs can be similarly distinguished.
In the notation used in this dictionary broad consonants are left
unmarked and the slender consonants are marked by placing /'/ after
them. The I.P.A. [International Phonetic Alphabet] equivalents for
all the consonants are given on the chart below for those familiar with
that notation [I have left them out because ASCII typewriters cannot
reproduce them --Elton]. Although English words are given as an
illustration for some of the consonants appearing on the left-hand side
of the chart below it should be stressed that Irish broad and slender
b,c,d, etc. are pronounced differently from the neutral b,c,d, etc. of
English. Readers unfamiliar with the distinction between broad and
slender consonants are referred to the accompanying cassette and
separate illustrative texts [neither of which I am providing here -- Elton].
Symbol: Gaelic Examples: Nearest English equivalent:
b' bi, beo /b'i:/, /b'o:/ be, beauty
b ba'n, bui /ba:n/, /bi:/ --
k' ce', ceak /k'e:/, /k'ad/ key, came
k cad /kad/ cot
d' deo /d'o:/ -- (slight "y" sound after "d": "dy@")
d do' /do:/ --
f' fi'on, fiu' /f'i:n/, /f'u:/ feet, few
f faoin /fi:n/ --
g' ge', o'ige /g'e:/, /o:g'@/ gay, egg
g Gaeil, o'ga /ge:l'/, /o:g@/ fog
h hata, thit /hat@/, /hit'/ hat
l' leon, mi'le /l'o:n/, /m'i:l'@/ live (slight "y" sound after "l": "ly@")
l lo'n, ma'la /lo:n/, /ma:l@/ mill
m' me', mi'n /m'e:/, /m'i:n'/ may, me
m maoin, mo'r /mi:n'/, /mo:r/ --
n' ainm, ni' /an'@m'/, /n'i:/ canyon (Spanish n~)
n anam, naoi /an@m/, /ni:/ --
p' peaca /p'ac@/ piece
p paca /pac@/ --
r' fuair /fu@r'/ --
r fuar /fu@r/ --
s' ca'is /ka:s'/ she
s ca's /ka:s/ sample
t' teacht /t'axt/ (*very* slight "h" after "t")
t tacht /taxt/ tutor
v' bhi' /v'i:/ very
v vo'ta /vo:t@/ wore
w wigwam /`wig,wam/ wigwam
z' xileafo'n /`z'il'@,fo:n/ pleasure
z zu' /zu:/ --
+ n!' loin!geas /lon!'g'@s/ sing
+ n! lon!ga /lon!g@/ long
# y' dhi'ol /y'i:l/ yes
# y dha' /ya:/ (Spanish _agua_)
x' cheol /x'o:l/ (German _ich_ -- softer "ch")
x loch /lox/ (German _Bach_ -- more guttural)
d'z' jab /j'z'ab/ job
[+ /n!/ is the joined "nj" (n with a trailing hook) that dictionaries use
to indicate the sound of an "ng" combination: _sing_
# /y/ is gamma, the Greek "g", indicating a soft "g" sound that disappears
into "y" when it softens. I use "y" because Irish doesn't use the
letter.]
[ In general, you can get by with rendering the broad consonants as in
American English (the sort of English you hear when listening to tele-
vision newscasts is the nearest thing to a standard Am.Eng.) The
slender consonants may be thought of as having a VERY slight /y/ sound
following the consonant: position your mouth as though you were going
to say "bee-o" (beo, /b'o:/), but then fail to pronounce the "ee". ]
[ Another thing that is not obvious is that /r/ followed by another
consonant often gets a slight /@/ after it: "radharc" /rair@c/, as
though it were two syllables. It is not noted this way, but is often
spoken thus. This may be regional; I don't know. ]
TRANSCRIPTION OF SOUNDS
The sound transcription used in the dictionary (and in the I.P.A.
equivalents given in the chart above) is referred to generally by
linguists as a "broad transcription". The use of a broad transcription
means that any vowel or consonant symbol permits a range of possible
pronunciations, recognising the fact that a particular word can be
pronounced correctly in different ways by different people. Thus the
Irish word _ba'd_ "boat" /ba:d/ may be pronounced "bae:d", "ba:d" or
"ba:d" [a difference in typefaces of "a:" that I cannot reproduce
here -- Elton]. We have illustrated as much as possible of this type
of variation on the tape to which the reader is referred for further
examples.
WORD STRESS
The stress pattern to be assigned to Irish words in this dictionary is
governed by the following conventions:
(a) Most words have the main or primary stress on the first syllable,
all other syllables being unstressed. In such cases stress is not
marked.
Examples: ba'do'ir "boatman" /ba:do:r'/
capall "horse" /kap@l/
aicsean "action" /ak's'@n/
(b) When the main or primary stress falls on a second or following
syllable and all other syllables in the word are unstressed, then
a /`/ is placed before the syllable bearing the main stress.
Examples: amach "out" /@`max/
tabac "tobacco" /t@`bak/
(c) Compound words and many recent loanwords from English have different
degrees of stress showing various combinations of primary and secondary
stress. Secondary stress is shown by placing /,/ before the relevant
syllable.
Examples:
(a) Words with two primary stresses
drochobair "bad/evil work" /`drox`ob@r'/
ro'-ard "too high/tall" /`ro:`a:rd/
(b) Words with primary and secondary stress (in that order)
bunscoil "primary school" /`bun,skol'/
bu'maraing "boomerang" /`bu:m@,ran!'/
(c) Words with secondary and primary stress (in that order)
do-dhe'anta "impossible" /,do`y'e:nta/
[Now we skip back to pages viii - ix for some notes on declension in
Irish. Much of this text will not do you a bit of good, since it has
primarily to do with the form of the dictionary entries, which you do
not have here and will not see unless you buy the book. However, it
does give some useful information on the sorts of transformations Irish
words go through between nominative and genitive, singular and plural.]
The Noun in Irish
The abbreviations m1, f2, m3, f3, m4 & f4 indicate that a noun is
declined like:
_nsg_ _gs_ _npl_ _gpl_
m1 ba'd ba'id ba'id ba'd
bacach bacaigh bacaigh bacach
peann pinn pinn peann
beithi'och beithi'gh beithi'gh beithi'och
pa'ipe'ar pa'ipe'ir pa'ipe'ir pa'ipe'ar
f2 beach beiche beacha beach
bos boise bosa bos
scornach scornai' scornacha scornach
eaglais eaglaise eaglaisi' eaglaisi'
m3 cainteoir cainteora cainteoiri' cainteoiri'
gno'lacht gno'lachta gno'lachtai' gno'lachtai
tince'ir tince'ara tince'iri' tince'iri'
f3 admha'il admha'la admha'lacha admha'lacha
beannacht beannachta beannachtai' beannachtai'
ban-ab ban-aba ban-abai' ban-abai'
m4 bata bata batai' batai'
fe'iri'n fe'iri'n fe'iri'ni' fe'iri'ni'
ci'ste ci'ste ci'sti' ci'sti'
ru'nai' ru'nai' ru'naithe ru'naithe
ordu' ordaithe orduithe orduithe
cruinniu' cruinnithe cruinnithe cruinnithe
f4 bearna bearna bearnai' bearnai'
comhairle comhairle comhairli' comhairli'
[nsg = nominative singular
gs = genitive singular
npl = nominative plural
gpl = genitive plural]
Where nouns are not declined entirely according to any of the above
patterns, (e.g. nouns traditionally assigned to the 5th declension,
nouns with irregular plurals etc.) the irregular forms are given.
The Adjective in Irish
The abbreviation a1 indicates that an adjective is declined like:
_gsm_ _gsf_&_comp_ _npl_ _gpl_
1. ba'n ba'in ba'na ba'n
2. glic glic glice glic
3. cleasach cleasaigh cleasai' cleasach
The abbreviation a2 indicates that an adjective is declined like:
_gsm_ _gsf_&_comp_ _npl_ _gpl_
misniu'il misniu'la misniu'la misniu'il
[gsm = genitive singular, masculine
gsf = genitive singular, feminine
comp = comparative
npl = nominative plural
gpl = genitive plural]
Adjectives designated as a3 do not change in form. Departures from
the above patterns are noted in the dictionary.
[I have omitted the sections discussing _The_Verb_ and _The_Verbal_Noun_,
as they do not deal at all with conjugations except in terms of
references to tables that I am not reproducing here. Moreover, you don't
even want to *think* about things such as "past habitual tense" -- "we
_have_always_lived_ in the castle".]
Joshua Brandon
I am constantly encountering Gaelic names that I have no idea
how to pronounce. The only thing I know is that they're never
pronounce the way they're spelled. Does anyone know where I can
find a pronuciation guide?
I indeed have this very thing, having compiled it as part of my Language
Guides for Heralds project, but I find I cannot post it! It seems to be
too long for my messenger today. I am sending it to Petrea privately ---
if anyone else would like a copy feel free to contact me.
I can say that I got it (and slightly simplified it) from the book
_Learning Irish: An Introductory Self-Tutor_, by Micheal O Siadhail, Dublin
Institute for Advanced Studies, 1983. If you can find this book, it looks
like a real gem.
---Simon, frustrated. Let's see if this posts!
--
Joshua Brandon Brown Math Department bra...@gauss.math.brown.edu
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!" ---Cutter John
YAZ/socrates
Joshua Brandon
>Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan! Petrea asks for a Gaelic
>pronunciation guide, and I just happen to have one lying around here.
>My good friend Elton is responsible for the bulk of it, but I helped.
>Here we go:
>From elton Mon Jan 6 15:04:27 1992
>To: sun!community-chest.mitre.org!heimberg
>Subject: Re: Your Recent Rules for Gaelic Pronunciation on Alt.Pagan
>Herewith, a short treatise on "The Irish: How She Are Pronounced", copied
>more or less verbatim from the front matter of Foclo'ir Po'ca, an Irish/
>English pocket dictionary (which is of course what "foclo'ir po'ca" means).
I've got a xerox of this section of the dictionary --- the problem is that
the pronunciation guide is inside out! It gives all the sounds and some
examples of each, but not all of the possible spellings for each sound.
I.e. it translates sound to spelling, when what you really want is
spelling to sound.
---Simon
Tim McDaniel
This is a photocopy which I got from Master Da'ud ibn Auda, former
Laurel King of Arms. Reprinted with no permission whatsoever.
"Keridwen's Guide to Faking Gaelic Names
"1. Anywhere there are three vowels in a row, cross out the two on the
sides.
"2. Anywhere there are two vowels in a row and one of them is either at
the edge of the word or next to a consonant cluster that is at the
edge of the word, cross out the other one.
"3. If there are two vowels in a row that can't be dealt with as in #2,
cross out one at random.
"4. Treat the letter "h" as 'backspace delete'. [sic]
"5. Try to recognize what the remainder might have been Anglicized as."
I also have the following explanation of how to pronounce Welsh, with a
bit of extra text. It's exceptionally obscene, so I've encoded it
rot-13. See your newsreader or mail reader help for instructions on how
to decode it, or write to me for the unencoded version (or the full
article). On most UNIX systems, you can save the article and run, for
example,
tr '[a-zA-Z]' '[n-za-mN-ZA-M]' | more
Rot-13 means it's a Caesar alphabet with shift 13: a->n, b->o, c->p,
..., l->y, m->z, n->a, o->b... z->m. It's chosen because it's its own
inverse: rot13(rot13(L)) is L for any letter L. Non-letters aren't
changed.
If you unrot this and then get offended, take a flying leap. You were
warned and took positive action to read it anyway.
Sebz: f_sb...@uvpbz.ybhtuobebhtu.np.hx ("Sehvgong, Cebsrffvbany Ubzbfrkhny")
Fraqre: ar...@clen.pb.hx (Arjf flfgrz)
Arjftebhcf: fbp.zbgff
Fhowrpg: Zrffvat nebhaq va sehvgongf
Zrffntr-VQ: <0096R096.S7...@uvpbz.yhg.np.hx>
Qngr: Zba, 14 Wha 1993 23:49:10 OFG
Betnavmngvba:
Yvarf: 198
...
Bhe cyna jnf gb geniry sebz gur Fuebcfuver Havba pnany hc gur Yynatbyyra
pnany, va qrrcrfg Abegu Jnyrf. Rirelobql ryfr jnagrq gb qb guvf gevc sbe
gur greevoyl cvpgherfdhr fprarel, naq gur Cbagplflyygr ndhrqhpg - gur
ovttrfg naq ohgpurfg va Oevgnva. V qba'g pner jung gur uvfgbel obbxf
fnvq. Gubznf Grysbeq jnf n enzcntvbhf byq fvmr dhrra. Ur jbhyqa'g unir
vagrerfgrq zr, gubhtu. Ovt ndhrqhpg, fznyy qvpx, gung'f jung V fnl.
Jr gehaqyrq nybat va gur riravat fhafuvar, cenpgvpvat bhe Jryfu.
"Gupuynatbguyra". "Ab, ab, fcvg uneqre".
Va npghny snpg, gur rnfvrfg jnl gb fcrnx Jryfu vf gb fgvpx gur ovttrfg
naq jvqrfg qvpx lbh pna svaq, nf sne qbja lbhe guebng nf vg jvyy tb, naq
gura gel naq gnyx nebhaq vg. Guvf grpuavdhr jbexf fhecevfvatyl jryy, ohg
vg pna erfhyg va yvggyr byq ynqvrf ehaavat njnl jura lbh nfx gurz sbe
qverpgvbaf.
Creuncf gurer vf n znexrg sbe qvfperrg Jryfu ynathntr qvyqbrf? "Cbc guvf
va lbhe zbhgu naq lbhe npprag jvyy or cresrpg". Fgvpx n cvpgher bs n
qentba ba gur fvqr, naq chg n fvyyl oynpx ung ba gur gbc, naq rirel
thyyvoyr gbhevfg jvyy jnag bar. Vg jbhyq or cersrenoyr gb fnpevsvpvat zl
travgnyf gb cresrpgvat Vna'f Jryfu npprag. Ur whfg vfa'g zl glcr.
Riraghnyyl, jr cnexrq gur obng ol gur onax, zvyrf njnl sebz naljurer. V
znxr ab cergrapr ng orvat anhgvpny. V qvq abg fcyvpr gur znva oenprf be
fjno gur cbbc qrpx. Vs gur evtug fvkgrra lrne byq unq jnyxrq cnfg, V
zvtug unir fuvirerq zl gvzoref, ohg gung'f nf sne nf vg tbrf. Nf sne nf
V'z pbaprearq, 'Zbbevat' vf gur npg bs svaqvat fbzr erzbgr zbbeynaq
fbzrjurer naq tvivat oybj wbof gb yhangvp zra va jngrecebbs pbngf naq
jbbyyl fbpxf. Guvatf jvgu ratvarf trg cnexrq.
...
--
Daniel of Lincoln, Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra
(Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation)
Internet: mcda...@convex.com, mcda...@mozart.convex.com,
mcda...@cyberspace.org
Steven H Mesnick
ciation. Like I said, this wasn't linguistics, it was dirty tricks for
heralds. I called it Gaelic because that's what people call it -- including
folks who speak it -- including the Irish themselves. Let's not get overly
pedantic, eh? (And yes, I say KELTIK languages and SELTIKS basketball <grin>).
I find that the rules I stated tend to work fairly well -- they are not
scientifically based really (outside of that intro on broad & slender
vowels), it's just stuff that seems to work, okay? Actually, they seem to be the same as the rules Keridwen (an acknowledged expert) listed.
Just trying to help.
Steffan, who is not a linguist but has gotten standing ovations after reading lists of SCA names so must be doing something right....
T. Archer
>pedantic, eh? (And yes, I say KELTIK languages and SELTIKS basketball <
I drive my sports-fan lady bananas during basket ball season, correcting
annoucers at the top of my lungs...
"It KEL-tics, you moron!"
It gives me something to do. I hate sports, myself.
Iain Odlin
>Absolutely Clueless
But no so much so as a _Profess_or of my acquaintance who insists on pro-
nouncing Celt "Selt" despite being shown numerous times that he is wrong
(Celt comes from the Greek _Keltoi_, and Greek has no soft C, et cetera).
However, in one of those odd twists of fate, his name happens to begin with
a hard C. We all have taken to pronouncing it with a soft C, much to his
consternation... ;)
Perhaps some day he'll rent a clue (and pronounce it "slew", no doubt).
-Iain Odlin, no hard or soft C to mangle
--
------------------------- Iain Odlin, od...@reed.edu -------------------------
10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
------- "I didn't know you could *do* that while playing a bagpipe..." -------
Tim
S> Oh yes, I should mention that it seems you can safely ignore most "TH",
S> "GH", or "DH" combinations.
SURE you can ... pronounce "dhuit" for me, please. Gee, where'd that
initial guttural come from?
S> "Mh", however, is "v", believe it or not, and so is "bh".
Except when they're "w".... e.g. "gabhar", "leabhar", "romhat", etc.
S> Maighread = mary...
Well, Margaret, actually ... pronounced "Mai-REE-ud".
Tadhg, Hanaper
ocitor!tim....@rwsys.lonestar.org
* Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Leigh Ann Hussey
>I.e. it translates sound to spelling, when what you really want is
>spelling to sound.
Well, it _is_ a place to start, at least. I always cross-ref back and
forth at will in such dictionaries anyway... and if you go trundling
through looking for spellings they don't have in the beginning of that
dictionary, the entries all have IPA transliterations... (which is, I
realize, not too helpful for those who don't have the little dictionary,
but it's not a very expensive book and VERY useful...)
Slainte!
- Siobhan
----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey Siobhan ni hEodhusa
Leigh.An...@sybase.com {sun,lll-tis,pyramid,pacbell}!sybase!leighann
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or. "The West is the best." -- Jim Morrison
Jo Jaquinta
>I called it Gaelic because that's what people call it -- including
>folks who speak it -- including the Irish themselves. Let's not get overly
>pedantic, eh?
I live in Ireland. I watch Irish news. I read Irish newspapers. I went
to school in Ireland. In all references to our national language about
98% of the time they call it Irish. The other 2% of the time it is
called either Gaelic or Gualige (the Irish for Irish). So if you are
trying to maintain that it should be called Gaelic because of the <2%
who occasionally call it that you win the prize for the most pedantic.
>Steffan, who is not a linguist but has gotten standing ovations after
>reading lists of SCA names so must be doing something right....
I'm sure it does perfectly well for people who don't know any
better. In an Irish court it would be "cringe city" :-) I do applaud
anyone who at leasts makes the attempt to pronounce things correctly.
Seamus
Donal Cunningham
>>folks who speak it -- including the Irish themselves. Let's not get overly
>>pedantic, eh?
> I guess I must use pedanticism to fight ignorance. I am Irish.
>I live in Ireland. I watch Irish news. I read Irish newspapers. I went
>to school in Ireland. In all references to our national language about
>98% of the time they call it Irish. The other 2% of the time it is
>called either Gaelic or Gualige (the Irish for Irish). So if you are
>trying to maintain that it should be called Gaelic because of the <2%
>who occasionally call it that you win the prize for the most pedantic.
No offense intended to anyone, but Jo's right. I'm one of the very few native
(that's native as in born in Ireland, went through the Irish school system
where we start Irish at age four, did Irish exams and have lived all of my life
in Ireland, not as in did-an-Irish-course-at-university) speakers of Irish in
the S.C.A., and I can assure you that we the Irish all say "Irish" when we are
talking about our own language. When we are speaking Irish we use the word
"Gaeilge". If you say "Gaelic" most people *will* assume you're talking about
Scots Gaelic.
Oh, and you can't say you've really studied Irish unless you've had to wade
through that abomination of a book, "Peig". |-)
/
Donal.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Donal Cunningham dcnn...@unix1.tcd.ie
38 Templevile Road, Templeogue, Dublin 6W. +353-1-900312
Paranoia is obsolete. It's ALL true.
Steven H Mesnick
Gaelic, I was only saying that *I* called it Gaelic, that others who
ought to know called it Gaelic, and that I didn't think I was necessarily
*wrong* in doing so. In support of those opinions, I submit the following.
From "Clannad, an interview with lead singer Maire Brennan" an article in
the latest (Aug/Sep) issue of "Dirty Linen", a journal of folk & traditional
music...
"...people thought it was a bit mad that we were singing Gaelic songs."
"We started to add Gaelic songs to our repertoire because Gaelic was our
first language".
"My grandmother used to teach us Gaelic songs..."
"...the record company didn't like the idea of us doing half the album in
Gaelic".
"It wasn't heard of to sing Gaelic unless you really heavy into...traditional
music..."
Quod erat demonstrandum. We now return to our regular program.
Suze Hammond
SHM> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
SHM> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
SHM> From "Clannad, an interview with lead singer Maire Brennan" an article
SHM> in the latest (Aug/Sep) issue of "Dirty Linen", a journal of folk &
SHM> traditional music...
SHM>
SHM> "...people thought it was a bit mad that we were singing Gaelic
SHM> songs."
SHM> "We started to add Gaelic songs to our repertoire because Gaelic was
SHM> our first language".
[etc.]
Ah well, here the problem is that this is an *interview*, that is, it's
spoken not written, by the person making the comment. The Irish word for
Irish, when not using English, sounds very much like "gaelic". Obviously
the person taking down the interview wasn't capable of making this
distinction either. Sloppy writing. (Unless Clannad is a Scottish group,
I'm not a fan, so I'm not sure... there are quite a few groups from both
Ireland and Scotland now singing in the traditional languages.)
My understanding is that the best way to tell a non-speaker the difference
in the spoken words is that the Irish sounds more like "gahlig" and the
Scottish version more like "ga-lick" although neither sounds exactly like
this.
SHM> Quod erat demonstrandum. We now return to our regular program.
Chan eil sgot aige...
... Moreach NicMhaolain
Jo Jaquinta
> SHM> From "Clannad, an interview with lead singer Maire Brennan" an article
> SHM> in the latest (Aug/Sep) issue of "Dirty Linen", a journal of folk &
> SHM> traditional music...
> SHM> "...people thought it was a bit mad that we were singing Gaelic
> SHM> songs."
> SHM> "We started to add Gaelic songs to our repertoire because Gaelic was
> SHM> our first language".
>spoken not written, by the person making the comment. The Irish word for
>Irish, when not using English, sounds very much like "gaelic". Obviously
>the person taking down the interview wasn't capable of making this
>distinction either.
Irish. At least she did on Wednsday on stage in the Olympia (smug grin).
I have two theories: (a) so Americans (quantity wise the biggest Clannad
fans) understand what she means or (b) being from very north Donegal they
affect Scottish terminology. When she did her leaving certificate, though,
I'm 100% positive it said "IRISH" on top of the paper :-).
Seamus